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Speaker 1: Ridiculous Histories, the production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to the

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Speaker 1: show Ridiculous Historians. Let's give it up for the man,

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Speaker 1: the myth legend super producer, mister Max Williams. Sunday Sunday Sunday.

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Speaker 1: We're fresh off Monster Jam. This week we're talking all

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Speaker 1: about the history of sampling, which, as my good pal

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Speaker 1: Nol pointed out, is very near and dear to the

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Speaker 1: three of us. They called me ben Noel. This is

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Speaker 1: a part two, so I guess we should tell people

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Speaker 1: or ask people to sample part one first.

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Speaker 2: Huh, Yes, exactly, put it on your little sampler platter,

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Speaker 2: skewer it with a with a tiny toothpick.

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Speaker 1: Enjoy it's it's delicious flavor. Yes, so let's let's cut.

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Speaker 1: Let's cut straight to hip hop. Sampling has become inherently

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Speaker 1: associated with the world of hip hop, the world of dance.

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Speaker 1: It starts even before hip hop was called hip hop.

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Speaker 1: It it really starts in the seventies, but the affordability

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Speaker 1: of these sampling machines in the eighties becomes the and

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Speaker 1: I rarely use this phrase because I hate when corporate

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Speaker 1: types do it. It becomes the inflection point. It is

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Speaker 1: the inflection point. Indeed. Uh, but we're talking about folks.

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Speaker 2: This is this is even separate from folks who are

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Speaker 2: able to all of a sudden afford those samplers that

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Speaker 2: we're talking about, the NPCs and sp twelve hundreds of

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Speaker 2: the world, right that might still have only been you know,

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Speaker 2: affordable as a relative term. No, it wasn't the price

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Speaker 2: of a fair light or a frickin melotron. But these

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Speaker 2: things we were still not, you know, affordable to just anybody.

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Speaker 2: But what was available to just about anybody was a turntable. Yes,

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Speaker 2: it was a household item right.

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Speaker 1: Right, because a lot of people have record players, because

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Speaker 1: people like music. So your parents, did you know what

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Speaker 1: I mean? Yea, yeah. So I want to shout out

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Speaker 1: this really cool thing on Drunk History, which obviously is

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Speaker 1: a show that we love. On this show, there is

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Speaker 1: an interview or a story narrated by Questlove of the

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Speaker 1: Roots and it's all about the invention of the scratch.

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Speaker 1: Please do watch that. It's just a wonderful segment. The

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Speaker 1: history spot on Questlove is a walking encyclopedia of all

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Speaker 1: things hip hop. We'll talk about what you're what you've

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Speaker 1: set up so beautifully for US records. There's a DJ,

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Speaker 1: cool Herk. Cool Herk knows how to read a room,

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Speaker 1: knows how to move a crowd. Cool Herk has one problem.

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Speaker 1: He doesn't want the party to stop. So he says,

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Speaker 1: I've got to figure out how to extend drum beats right,

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Speaker 1: Uh in these records that I'm playing. Yeah. Functional, So

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Speaker 1: he gets two records together, uh and the same months,

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Speaker 1: and this the Merry Ground it's called Yeah, they're the same,

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Speaker 1: they're identical records, and he mixes them together to make

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Speaker 1: the drum breaks longer. And this is where we see

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Speaker 1: the emergence of or one of the ingredients what you

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Speaker 1: would call an MC today. MCS for the master's ceremony, right,

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Speaker 1: like like in dance hall when people would make toast right,

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Speaker 1: or there's a little bit of the old Grio storytelling

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Speaker 1: involved there. This Yeah, this MC will come up and

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Speaker 1: they're the hype person at the party. They're not the

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Speaker 1: main event, the DJs the main event. They're the person

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Speaker 1: who is like, oh right, everybody, you could have been

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Speaker 1: anywhere tonight, but you're here. You know, we got DJ

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Speaker 1: Coole hurt Uh. And there's this these intros because more

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Speaker 1: ornates more elaborate, right, They become their own sort of instruments,

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Speaker 1: and this is ultimately evolves into what you would call rapping.

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Speaker 1: And producers love this, they love these block parties. But

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Speaker 1: it's like an ice sculpture, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 1: It's beautiful in the moment. How do we capture this,

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Speaker 1: how do we bring it out past? You know, for

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Speaker 1: you when the cops shut us down, they start making

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Speaker 1: these songs.

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Speaker 2: It's really interesting that you point out the relationship between

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Speaker 2: the MC and the DJ, because I think this is

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Speaker 2: you know, if this is early seventies, this would have

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Speaker 2: been happening kind of in parallel with disco. They would

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Speaker 2: have been more in like, you know, more affluent neighborhoods,

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Speaker 2: you know, and maybe like midtown, downtown New York, LA.

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Speaker 2: You know, all of this kind of stuff. And these

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Speaker 2: these parties that you're talking about were happening in the street,

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Speaker 2: like these were these were block parties, These were you know,

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Speaker 2: outdoor kind of very affairs. So there was this kind

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Speaker 2: of parallel track. But all what it had in common

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Speaker 2: was the star of the show was recorded music. Yes,

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Speaker 2: it was sort of this era of like live music

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Speaker 2: was almost.

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Speaker 1: Waning a little bit not waning.

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Speaker 2: I mean, of course there were big you know, rock

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Speaker 2: shows and stadium shows, but you would go to those

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Speaker 2: to see your favorite artists.

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Speaker 1: You're going to these things to dance. So going back

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Speaker 1: to this, the idea of hip hop sampling again, it

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Speaker 1: reminds me of this. It's just wonderful quote I heard

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Speaker 1: from a vegan Japanese chef who said that she found

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Speaker 1: her creativity in constraints, right, and she said, actually makes

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Speaker 1: me a much better chef because I have I have

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Speaker 1: restricted sort of the palette with which I can paint.

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Speaker 1: And hip hop sampling comes from these limitations. Like you

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Speaker 1: said earlier, you know you are forced in by necessity, right,

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Speaker 1: you were forced into creativity because you can't afford a

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Speaker 1: formal music education.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 1: You may not be able to pay the per hour

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Speaker 1: rate for studio time. How you want to have a

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Speaker 1: harp on your song, But do you know anyone who

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Speaker 1: plays a harp? Do you know anyone who can afford

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Speaker 1: a harp? Honestly, I don't know anyone who can play

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Speaker 1: a harp. In twenty twenty three, I've met some people,

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Speaker 1: but I don't have like a harp. Guy, I can text.

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Speaker 1: I got a harp guy. Actually, it's just funny, man Like, just.

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Speaker 2: Having a recording studio and working on different stuff, you

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Speaker 2: end up finding people that play all kinds of different weirds.

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Speaker 2: I'm not I just happen to know who plays the

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Speaker 2: harp and dude, that's the thing though, to your point, Ben,

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Speaker 2: that is such a niche specific discipline and to even

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Speaker 2: own a harp, that is such a commitment. That is

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Speaker 2: such a commitment to the one thing. Right with turntables,

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Speaker 2: you could commit to everything because you can. You just

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Speaker 2: buy the record and then you can like, you know,

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Speaker 2: here's a little bit of this little bit of that

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Speaker 2: mix it up.

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Speaker 1: You don't have to have a heart.

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Speaker 2: We don't even have no sax player or even a

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Speaker 2: drummer because that method that you were talking about that

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Speaker 2: DJ cool Hirk was doing to extend those beats. You

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Speaker 2: just buy two copies of the same record, and then

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Speaker 2: you can use what's called a mixer and a cross

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Speaker 2: fader to juggle back and forth. When the break ends

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Speaker 2: on the left side, left player, you turn it over

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Speaker 2: started on the right side, and then you pick the

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Speaker 2: needle back up put it on the beginning of the

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Speaker 2: break again on the left side. When the right side's done,

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Speaker 2: boom over to the right. You can make it completely seamless.

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Speaker 2: And if you ever, I know you have been witnessed

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Speaker 2: a DJ at the top of their game doing these

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Speaker 2: kinds of manipulations.

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Speaker 1: It is like magic. It's so incredible to behold. It's

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Speaker 1: pretty cool. And there's a whole that we could do

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Speaker 1: a whole episode on DJ because there are you know,

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Speaker 1: as with any art form, there are controversies, right, there

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Speaker 1: are different schools of thought. We should also shout out

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Speaker 1: a producer, Marley Marril. This guy chopped up drum kind

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Speaker 1: of like a music concrete thing, chopped up drum breaks

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Speaker 1: to make new drum patterns, like you were saying, finding

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Speaker 1: new repetitions and cyclical intervals in this stuff. And then

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Speaker 1: we know that DJs, to your point, the DJs from

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Speaker 1: particularly the South Bronx were manipulating vinyl, right, they were

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Speaker 1: sampling this stuff, but they were cooking live and I

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Speaker 1: think that's really that's part of the art of DJing.

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Speaker 1: And again, can't cannot emphasize I'm not a fan of

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Speaker 1: over hyping stuff, so I don't say it lightly ridiculous historians.

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Speaker 1: I cannot emphasize how cool. That quest love story from

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Speaker 1: Drunk History is you really should watch it. If you

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Speaker 1: don't like it, then I don't know what to tell you.

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Speaker 1: You might hate music.

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Speaker 2: It's possible, but we still didn't exactly. This stuff wasn't

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Speaker 2: mainstream yet. Now it was all happening in these blog parties,

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Speaker 2: you know, because like I said, disco was mainstream, but

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Speaker 2: they weren't sampling. Those records were made with live bands,

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Speaker 2: those records, the recordings were made in the studios with

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Speaker 2: five stands. Very expensive, right, and they sounded expensive, you know.

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Speaker 2: But this stuff, this phenomenon was kind of happening under

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Speaker 2: the radar, and they didn't really have kind of a

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Speaker 2: flagship singular sound associated with them.

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Speaker 1: Yet.

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Speaker 2: That would change with the advent of the Sugar Hill

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Speaker 2: Gang's rappers Delight, which you know, used some of these

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Speaker 2: kinds of grooves and sounds and turntably, you know, manipulations

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Speaker 2: and created a song that became really popular. That song

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Speaker 2: and of itself is an episode because it actually there

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Speaker 2: is an episode about that song on a show that

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Speaker 2: I worked on called The Speed of Sound with Steve Greenberg,

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Speaker 2: who kind of came up as a record executive through

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Speaker 2: all these times that we're talking about, and the Sugar

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Speaker 2: Hill Gang were kind of they weren't really very beloved

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Speaker 2: in the up and coming hip hop community because it

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Speaker 2: was kind of considered a little cliche, and and they

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Speaker 2: were backed by like the Mob.

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Speaker 1: It's really interesting. So check that story out in and

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Speaker 1: of itself.

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Speaker 2: But now you kind of have these songs starting to

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Speaker 2: really break through, you know, on the airwaves.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you really do see it like this. This

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Speaker 1: gets the attention of the industry eventually, right, the powers

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Speaker 1: that be in the world of music, the folks who

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Speaker 1: own those studios, those elaborate, high end studios where mainstream

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Speaker 1: music is produced, they start getting interested in this thing.

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Speaker 1: And look, we also hip hop is awesome. All three

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Speaker 1: of us think hip hop is awesome, and we are

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Speaker 1: very careful to note that hip hop is not the

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Speaker 1: only thing happening in this realm. If you go across

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Speaker 1: the pond, you see folks like Pop Will Eat Itself,

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Speaker 1: Cold Cut, the Art of Noise. These are sample These

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Speaker 1: are rock, pop and dance music samples that they're using.

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Speaker 1: And it might not sound like hip hop, but it

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Speaker 1: has some of the same branches of the family tree

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Speaker 1: or roots. That's how trees grow, trees grow from roots.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, Noel, you know I'm leaning on a lot

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Speaker 1: of your knowledge as a multi instrumentalist. I never missed

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Speaker 1: the chance to brag about your talents there. Yeah, well,

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Speaker 1: thank you. You know you're really good. So I wanted

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Speaker 1: to ask you, when we're talking about sampling in the

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Speaker 1: world of British music in the late eighties and early nineties,

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Speaker 1: is this something that a lot of people in the

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Speaker 1: US would recognize stuff like popoly to itself and so on.

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Speaker 1: It depends.

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Speaker 2: I mean, you know, the Art of Noise are a

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Speaker 2: very influential kind of sample based group that could be

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Speaker 2: considered sort of a proto industrial kind of group. So

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Speaker 2: this is the kind of sampling where we're not necessarily

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Speaker 2: talking about recognizable samples through other pieces of music. We're

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Speaker 2: talking more about that sampling as an instrument unto itself.

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Speaker 2: If you think about you know, Nine Inch Nails, for example,

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Speaker 2: Pretty Hate Machines, the record that came out in the

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Speaker 2: late eighties, the sampling on that album is mainly like

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Speaker 2: the sounds of machinery and like you know, grinding gears

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Speaker 2: and you know, weird textural kind of bits. So it's

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Speaker 2: a way of using sampling or you know, manipulation of

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Speaker 2: recorded material to add texture, to add vibe, you know,

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Speaker 2: and it's not necessarily like to extend a drum break

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Speaker 2: or to have some sort of loop that someone might

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Speaker 2: recognize as sort of like a nod or an easter egg,

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Speaker 2: like you said. And this is all in the UK

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Speaker 2: where this stuff is blowing up. Pop will eat itself

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Speaker 2: cold cut the art of noise. You know, as we know,

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Speaker 2: the charts in the UK do not always the charts

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Speaker 2: in the United States. There's a lot more kind of

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Speaker 2: maybe off the beaten path sort of more unusual music

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Speaker 2: that does chart very well in the UK in terms

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Speaker 2: of dance music, in terms of like indie music, things

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Speaker 2: like that that we maybe wouldn't It's a little different

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Speaker 2: now being such a global world with the Internet and all.

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Speaker 1: Of that stuff.

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Speaker 2: But back in the eighties, before you had this kind

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Speaker 2: of stuff, you wouldn't have even known about a lot

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Speaker 2: of these artists because unless you like, you know, were

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Speaker 2: really tuned into what was going on there via like zines,

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Speaker 2: which are you know, d DIY kind of printed music

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Speaker 2: magazines or pop culture magazines. So but now you know,

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Speaker 2: we live in this totally kind of global, less isolated,

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Speaker 2: but also somehow more isolated world where you kind of

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Speaker 2: know about what's going on depending on where your interests lie,

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Speaker 2: you know, outside of the country that you might live in. Yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 2: This is a great paradox of our age, you know,

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Speaker 2: and we're the average ridge music listeners always cognizant of

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Speaker 2: where a sample came from the providence or whatever.

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Speaker 1: Probably not, and you don't need to be to enjoy

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Speaker 1: the music itself. We do know that as technology continued

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Speaker 1: to develop, as these inventions, this musical equipment and gear

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Speaker 1: became miniaturized, became more sophisticated and more user friendly. We go.

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Speaker 1: It spread all around the world, and people were able

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Speaker 1: to get increasingly precise with the samples they took. You

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Speaker 1: might not have to just sample the entirety of the

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Speaker 1: entirety of a song, right, take all the two to

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Speaker 1: four bars of a loop. You could take individual parts

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Speaker 1: from various songs. You can pick and choose. Now I

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Speaker 1: just want you know, Now, I just want the sousaphone

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Speaker 1: from here. Now I just want this one part of

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Speaker 1: this vocal, and I want at a cappella. You can

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Speaker 1: start doing that. And one great example of this and

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Speaker 1: how it comes full circle is a nineteen ninety five

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Speaker 1: single from Lord Finesse called Hip to the Game, wherein

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Speaker 1: he samples some vocals, some ad libs really from James

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Speaker 1: Brown of Augusta Fame, some drums from band called Detroit Emeralds,

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Speaker 1: and then some harmonies and some melodies from Oscar Peterson

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Speaker 1: and then some additional percussion from Millie and Silly. It

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Speaker 1: puts all this together and synthesizes something new. And now

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Speaker 1: you know, we can also talk about I think something

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Speaker 1: that you and I and our pal Jeff all love

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Speaker 1: the band The Avalanches.

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Speaker 2: Oh my god, yeah, it was only a matter of

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Speaker 2: time The Avalanches since I left you. In addition to

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Speaker 2: DJ Shadows introducing are two album that really took the

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Speaker 2: art of sampling in a completely different direction. Because again,

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Speaker 2: while there might be little snippets within these that you

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Speaker 2: might recognize, kind of like if you were real jazz

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Speaker 2: head back in the day and you knew that little

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Speaker 2: little blip that the saxophonist was referencing, you know, from

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Speaker 2: another performer, these guys DJ Shadow and The Avalanches are

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Speaker 2: what you call create diggers. These are folks that find

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Speaker 2: stuff from yesteryear. You know, very esoteric records that would

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Speaker 2: not have been very popular, and they slice and dice

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Speaker 2: them to create something entirely new, you know. Not to

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Speaker 2: mention you mentioned the idea of having a cappella vocals.

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Speaker 2: When sampling became kind of the order of the day,

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Speaker 2: you would have forty five single versions of dance tracks

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Speaker 2: that would have an instrumental version on the B side,

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Speaker 2: or maybe an a cappella version on the B side.

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Speaker 2: Because anyone that knows about manipulating music, you know, if

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Speaker 2: you have a recording that is vocals and everything in there,

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Speaker 2: short of finding a section of it that doesn't have

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Speaker 2: the vocals, everything's locked together. You can't separate it. You

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Speaker 2: could use some equalization and maybe cut some of the

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Speaker 2: low frequencies and maybe emphasize the vocal, but you're not

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Speaker 2: going to have a purely music free version unless an

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Speaker 2: artist decides to release a a cappella version, and they

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Speaker 2: would only do that with the knowledge that a DJ

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Speaker 2: might use that and drop it on top of another break.

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Speaker 1: And I gotta tell you that to me shows the

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Speaker 1: collaborative nature here because think about it, you are a musician,

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Speaker 1: You're creating stuff. This still happens with a lot of

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Speaker 1: hip hop, a single comes out and you'll have the

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Speaker 1: version that has the verses on it, the vocals, and

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Speaker 1: then you'll have that instrumental version. Because this is true,

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Speaker 1: it's meant for other up and coming and sees and

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Speaker 1: producers to be able to digest that music, to make

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Speaker 1: it their own in some way, and it spreads your

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Speaker 1: original song as well. It can be when it works,

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Speaker 1: it can be a win win, and you can make

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Speaker 1: new music entirely from samples.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And like like I said, there are those two

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Speaker 2: records that we're talking about since I left you and

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Speaker 2: introducing those records are made almost entirely out of snippets

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Speaker 2: of samples. But unless you were coming to it with

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Speaker 2: a deep knowledge of you know, the source material, which

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Speaker 2: is I mean we're talking hundreds and hundreds of samples.

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Speaker 2: This is not music made to feel necessarily referential to

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Speaker 2: a specific song. It's more using this stuff to create

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Speaker 2: kind of a nostalgic pastiche that just sort of is

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Speaker 2: meant to be sort of bathed in, you know, it's

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Speaker 2: a sonic tapestry as opposed to like here's the you know,

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Speaker 2: the eight bar drum break from Funky drummer, you know,

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Speaker 2: by James Brown and if you if you happen to

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Speaker 2: pick out little bits, that's part of the fun too.

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Speaker 2: Of course, there are whole websites like WhoSampled dot com.

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Speaker 1: I'm actually on.

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Speaker 2: It's phenomenal where it'll actually go through and dissect the

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Speaker 2: best of.

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Speaker 1: Whom at whatever internet.

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Speaker 2: You know, music sleuth stability, exactly what was used, and

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Speaker 2: this stuff will be combined with synthesizers and you know,

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Speaker 2: drum machine sounds. But typically you know these artists like

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Speaker 2: DJ Shadow is a DJ, like he is a turntablist,

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Speaker 2: and you will hear scratchy kind of you know, sounds

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Speaker 2: like turntable manipulation, the avalanches they use you know, records

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Speaker 2: and they are DJs, but they're not like super you know,

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Speaker 2: proficiently scratchy, you know DJ turntableists. They're much more producers.

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Speaker 2: So you start to get into like the sampling as paint,

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Speaker 2: you know, the sampling as color, right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And also I like to from a creative perspective,

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Speaker 1: I like to think of it as building a band

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Speaker 1: in your head. You know, like these like Wallace Collection,

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Speaker 1: who got sampled by Skinny on a beautiful day you guys,

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Speaker 1: remember that song. That's that's a beautiful example. They they

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Speaker 1: had no idea what would happened to the music they

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Speaker 1: created when they were making it, and then Skinny comes

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Speaker 1: along and says, hey, I wish this stuff all worked together.

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Speaker 1: I think that's pretty cool, and I think it's going

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Speaker 1: to continue despite the controversies we're going to talk about.

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Speaker 1: I think it's going to continue because the technology continues

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Speaker 1: to evolve as well, and tracks are merging seamlessly together.

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Speaker 1: Like when it's It's almost like the idea that Chekhov

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Speaker 1: has about being a good author. The author disappears right.

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Speaker 1: The samples no longer sound like samples, and a lot

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Speaker 1: of these things they just sound as though they are

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Speaker 1: part of one amazingly created, eclectic, cohesive song, and anyone

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Speaker 1: to our earlier point in Part one about democratization of

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Speaker 1: technology and creativity, anyone with a digital audio workstation can

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Speaker 1: edit and manipulate samples in their own songs today. In

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Speaker 1: my opinion, one great example of sampling from our days

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Speaker 1: in the trenches of podcasting is a little top secret

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Speaker 1: project that we used to call the anti podcast This.

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Speaker 1: I think the statute of limitations has passed, but good

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Speaker 1: friend of the show, Tristan McNeil, and several of several

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Speaker 1: of our producers in the family did this beautiful thing

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Speaker 1: where they started taking out takes and bloopers from some

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Speaker 1: of your favorite podcasters and making them into tracks. And

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Speaker 1: Max were you involved with this?

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Speaker 3: I was non involved with that. That was a little

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Speaker 3: before my time at the company. But I have made

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Speaker 3: one of the two of y'all on a recording of

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Speaker 3: stuff that I want you to know. When y'all use

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Speaker 3: the term that I had coin called girking, Yes, I've

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Speaker 3: made the Girking that has not been released to the public.

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Speaker 3: I don't think it is safe to release to the public.

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Speaker 1: I don't think.

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Speaker 3: I don't think iHeart would love that out in you

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Speaker 3: know the world.

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Speaker 1: But yes, might be our might be for our Criterion

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Speaker 1: collection right when when, Yeah, when Criteria moves into podcasting.

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Speaker 1: So this is where we're at now. We're now going

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Speaker 1: closer to the present day. It's not just for hip hop.

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Speaker 1: You will hear this in electronic music, of course, like

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Speaker 1: some of your favorite house, jungle, drum and based stuff

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Speaker 1: also utilizes sampling to great effect. And we can still

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Speaker 1: see that evolution happening in real time, the old school

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Speaker 1: hip hop producers inspired people like Ya, inspired people like

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Speaker 1: Timbaland and the Neptunes, all of whom have made wonderful tracks.

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Speaker 1: Putting personalities aside, They've all made wonderful tracks at one

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Speaker 1: point or another. And this sampling kind of it plays

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Speaker 1: a big part in defining the era of hip hop

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Speaker 1: at a given at a given time, right, and now

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Speaker 1: it's even now it's even becoming I would say the

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Speaker 1: interval between an original song and a sample is continuing

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Speaker 1: to shrink. Like in hip hop, it's not uncommon for

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Speaker 1: someone to say, like jay Z's ninety nine Problems right,

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Speaker 1: produced with Rick Rubin. I believe jay Z's ninety nine

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Speaker 1: Problems didn't come out all that long ago in the

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Speaker 1: span of history. But now it's not uncommon to hear

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Speaker 1: songs coming out today where an MC verbally checks it

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Speaker 1: and they talk about their ninety nine problems.

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Speaker 2: Right, or the hundredth problem, or it might be because yeah,

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Speaker 2: And that's where the line between sampling and kind of

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Speaker 2: interpolation because very interesting because it's all, you know, in

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Speaker 2: a sense, a way of kind of check name checking

401
00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:10,120
Speaker 2: or sound checking pop culture, you know, and then kind

402
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Speaker 2: of tying your thing into a history, you know, and

403
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Speaker 2: being part of this whole conversation, because I mean, music,

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Speaker 2: at the end of the day, is just another oral tradition, right.

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Speaker 1: One hundred percent, which is why we shout out grio's

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Speaker 1: when we talked about the early days of MC's. So

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Speaker 1: this is something you have probably run into if you

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Speaker 1: have ever worked in the field of audio, not even music. Okay,

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Speaker 1: give you another little war story. Way back in the day,

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Speaker 1: when podcasts had just become a real thing and we're

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Speaker 1: no longer a twinkle in the eye of how stuff works,

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Speaker 1: we were actually making podcasts, we were able to use

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Speaker 1: a lot of stuff as references. You know, it hushed

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Speaker 1: up the audio in the show. You may have longtime

415
00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:07,120
Speaker 1: ridiculous historians. You heard us possibly do taking a law

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Speaker 1: and order sound cue for Casey on the Case one

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Speaker 1: of our first references, which we loved so much, and

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Speaker 1: in our business we were able to we were able

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Speaker 1: to describe some of this stuff as fair use, right,

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Speaker 1: educational value. But as podcasting became more and more of

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Speaker 1: an industry and became more and more mainstreamed, the suits

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Speaker 1: started to pay attention. You could no longer have nol

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Speaker 1: and Max and Ben do a rendition of you know,

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Speaker 1: bone Thugs and Harmony or something, just because we thought

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Speaker 1: it was funny or we thought it was cool to

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Speaker 1: throw to that because there's a copyright and sampling runs

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00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:54,160
Speaker 1: into copyright issues all the time. Your favorite hip hop artists,

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00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:57,960
Speaker 1: favorite hip hop songs or albums that have samples on them.

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Speaker 1: It's someone's entire to figure out how to make it

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Speaker 1: okay to put that on a track.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they call it clearing samples and the opposite of

432
00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:13,560
Speaker 2: cleared samples or uncleared samples. And as we know, sometimes

433
00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:15,919
Speaker 2: folks will roll the dice or at least you know

434
00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:18,520
Speaker 2: more when it was maybe the wild West time, which

435
00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:22,920
Speaker 2: lasted a pretty good long time from the beginning of sampling,

436
00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:25,800
Speaker 2: like in the eighties to when folks started to realize

437
00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:28,159
Speaker 2: if they paid closer attention they could maybe make a

438
00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:31,840
Speaker 2: bug because this stuff started flying highly above the radar.

439
00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:36,400
Speaker 2: So yeah, there's you know, even with music licensing for podcasts.

440
00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:39,040
Speaker 2: To your point, Ben, there's a whole company that you

441
00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:41,720
Speaker 2: work with that we work with at iHeart to make

442
00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:44,600
Speaker 2: sure that everyone's getting compensated and the use of the

443
00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:48,240
Speaker 2: piece of music is agreed upon and that person has

444
00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:52,040
Speaker 2: to find the holders of the copyright for two what

445
00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:54,879
Speaker 2: they call sides of the of the piece of music.

446
00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:59,480
Speaker 2: There's the composition copyright and then there's the actual recording

447
00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:05,280
Speaker 2: right and you know, the composition is codified by you know,

448
00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:08,119
Speaker 2: literal music notes on a page. If you register a

449
00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:12,840
Speaker 2: copyright for a piece of music, you are submitting sheet music, right,

450
00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:16,040
Speaker 2: and you're getting you know, like Lennon McCartney, whatever it

451
00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:18,479
Speaker 2: might be. You know, however, you agree to divide up

452
00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:20,840
Speaker 2: your royalties, you know, for songwriting credits.

453
00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:23,760
Speaker 1: The recording is different than that.

454
00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:28,280
Speaker 2: It is literally the copyrighted audio recording of that thing,

455
00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:32,520
Speaker 2: you know, that specific version of that song. That's why

456
00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:35,200
Speaker 2: you can it's a little easier to do a cover

457
00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:38,639
Speaker 2: of a song because you only have to pay royalties

458
00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:41,960
Speaker 2: for the composition side, and then you've made a whole

459
00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:44,200
Speaker 2: new piece of music, you know, out of what would

460
00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:45,560
Speaker 2: have been the recording side.

461
00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:49,080
Speaker 1: And this stuff can get complicated when you're in the

462
00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:52,160
Speaker 1: in the deep water, right when you're talking a lot

463
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:56,000
Speaker 1: of mainstream music, because so many people have a part

464
00:27:56,119 --> 00:28:01,919
Speaker 1: to play in the creatorholders, yes, stakeholders, and it is

465
00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:04,240
Speaker 1: going to be more people than you expect. It is

466
00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:09,320
Speaker 1: incredibly rare for there to be a mainstream artist that

467
00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:13,560
Speaker 1: has written everything, performed everything, you know what I mean,

468
00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:18,280
Speaker 1: that has done everything by themselves. It's extraordinary, I would argue.

469
00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:23,480
Speaker 1: So now that we're in the world of litigation of copyright,

470
00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:27,199
Speaker 1: of law and order sampling, I think we can get

471
00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:34,000
Speaker 1: away with that one. Yeah. Right, So you have to

472
00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:38,400
Speaker 1: get permission, you have to pay these royalties or these fees.

473
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:43,600
Speaker 1: And the copyright holders who first started taking notice of this,

474
00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:47,480
Speaker 1: they were aiming for folks like Public Enemy. Public Enemy

475
00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:51,280
Speaker 1: used a lot of samples, and at first, in the

476
00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:55,760
Speaker 1: early days of this, purchasing the rights to use a sample,

477
00:28:56,520 --> 00:28:59,760
Speaker 1: it wasn't very expensive. You're still paying money, but it

478
00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:03,200
Speaker 1: was like a new revenue stream for these copyright holders.

479
00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:08,360
Speaker 1: And as people realized this was as they realized they

480
00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:14,640
Speaker 1: had struck financial oil. Basically, the fees grew. Additional fees

481
00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:19,479
Speaker 1: were added, things called rollover rates, and they started saying, okay,

482
00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:22,640
Speaker 1: we will charge you not just a one time fee,

483
00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:26,080
Speaker 1: but we'll charge you based on how many units, how

484
00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:29,720
Speaker 1: many CDs you sold. Right, So now you're kind of

485
00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:34,920
Speaker 1: incentivizing the creators not to sell as much of their song,

486
00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:38,880
Speaker 1: which is weird. Well, you're basically getting points, you know.

487
00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:41,000
Speaker 2: I mean, like that's what you would consider like when

488
00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:43,840
Speaker 2: you do a negotiation for like a film, like as

489
00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:46,360
Speaker 2: a high level actor, you negotiate for getting all I

490
00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:49,360
Speaker 2: want an executive producer credit and I want X number

491
00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:52,600
Speaker 2: of points you know, percentage points on the gross. So

492
00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:55,360
Speaker 2: at this point you're giving away, you know, to these

493
00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:58,440
Speaker 2: stakeholders a good bit of your profits.

494
00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:03,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, they're eating your lunch, as the old school,

495
00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:06,360
Speaker 1: as the old school madmen of the world would say.

496
00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:11,240
Speaker 1: And look, everybody knows everybody on every side of the

497
00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:14,400
Speaker 1: table here. They know that in general, these artists aren't

498
00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:18,480
Speaker 1: sampling stuff to play it off as their own. Nobody

499
00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:23,560
Speaker 1: is hearing the Funky Drummer riff and thinking, oh, this

500
00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:27,080
Speaker 1: person made that up right. It's it is an homage.

501
00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:33,720
Speaker 1: It is a sample. But intentions aside. The reality is

502
00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:37,959
Speaker 1: from the copyright holder perspective, these folks are still making

503
00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:41,200
Speaker 1: money off of stolen work. We're bringing up Funky Drummer

504
00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:46,800
Speaker 1: again because Clyde Stubblefield, the original drummer there has, as

505
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:50,680
Speaker 1: of twenty twenty three, still not received compensation for his

506
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:54,200
Speaker 1: drumming or for how it's been sampled and it's everywhere.

507
00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:57,200
Speaker 2: But that's the thing, though, Ben, that's part of that

508
00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:01,719
Speaker 2: recording copyright. Right, Clyde stubble Field was paid as a

509
00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:06,360
Speaker 2: session musician. He doesn't have points on the back end.

510
00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:09,920
Speaker 2: He's a high copyright And that's the thing that's really interesting,

511
00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:13,000
Speaker 2: and it goes back to our whole conversation about collaboration

512
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:17,040
Speaker 2: and about synthesis. You know, a band like James Brown band,

513
00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:21,040
Speaker 2: you know he's got these season funk kind of jazz players.

514
00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:24,120
Speaker 2: A lot of that stuff is improvised. It's not like

515
00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:28,360
Speaker 2: James Brown told note for note Clyde Stubblefield exactly what

516
00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:32,120
Speaker 2: to play on Funky Drummer. It's called Funky Drummer because

517
00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:35,680
Speaker 2: Clyde's doublefield is the funky drummer and is incredible. And

518
00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:39,720
Speaker 2: he was playing completely from the heart and from you know,

519
00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:44,280
Speaker 2: his intellect as a musical you know mind. This thing

520
00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:47,680
Speaker 2: that then caught so many ears. Wow, this is next level.

521
00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:50,560
Speaker 2: We're gonna loop this for days. And that's why it

522
00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:53,120
Speaker 2: is to this day, I think one of the most sampled,

523
00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:56,800
Speaker 2: you know, pieces of drumming, you know, in the history

524
00:31:56,840 --> 00:31:59,200
Speaker 2: of sampling. It's like the vill Helm scream of drum,

525
00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:01,240
Speaker 2: it's like the will Helm and that guy probably isn't

526
00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:03,719
Speaker 2: getting paid for that either. But my point is, no

527
00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:08,360
Speaker 2: one's exactly ripping off Clyde Stubblefield. He didn't make this,

528
00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:09,960
Speaker 2: isn't you know, But he didn't have the power to

529
00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:12,320
Speaker 2: make that, you know, to push for that at the time,

530
00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:15,600
Speaker 2: because he was a hired gun and only history has

531
00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:18,760
Speaker 2: proven him to have been this high water mark moment.

532
00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:21,080
Speaker 2: You know that he didn't even know he was creating

533
00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:24,440
Speaker 2: so and we see other examples of that as well,

534
00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:27,960
Speaker 2: like in a tribe called Quest samples take a Walk

535
00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:30,040
Speaker 2: on the wild Side by Lou Reed and you know

536
00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:35,320
Speaker 2: that iconico that slide base or whatever, that was a

537
00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:38,120
Speaker 2: session musician as well, who made that up and probably

538
00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:40,520
Speaker 2: was sort of given a guideline around what to play.

539
00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:43,280
Speaker 2: But he's the one who did that, and he's not

540
00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:45,680
Speaker 2: getting paid for that either. And in fact, I believe

541
00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:50,760
Speaker 2: that Lou Reed, in his infinite you know, crotchetiness sued,

542
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:53,480
Speaker 2: you know, can you the tribe call Quest over?

543
00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:54,959
Speaker 1: Can you kick it? Can we kick it?

544
00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:57,400
Speaker 2: And I think he gets every bit of royalty for

545
00:32:57,480 --> 00:32:59,600
Speaker 2: that song. And do you think the guy who played

546
00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:01,719
Speaker 2: that bass slimee that they sampled gets a dime of that.

547
00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:06,680
Speaker 1: No, No, I hope, I don't know. Things get sticky

548
00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:10,960
Speaker 1: right when money is involved. And another famous or infamous

549
00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:14,800
Speaker 1: example of copyright issues would be our Pow Danger Mouse.

550
00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:18,480
Speaker 1: In two thousand and four, Danger Mouse created something called

551
00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:23,000
Speaker 1: the Gray Album, which was a really well done mashup

552
00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:27,520
Speaker 1: end to end stem distern mashup no skips the White

553
00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:32,080
Speaker 1: album with jay Z jay Z's versus from the Black Album.

554
00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:34,960
Speaker 1: It was really cool. A lot of people liked it,

555
00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:37,920
Speaker 1: people who didn't like it. Em I the label that

556
00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:40,680
Speaker 1: owns the Beatles recordings, and they make a ton of

557
00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:43,120
Speaker 1: money off this, so of course they're protective of it.

558
00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:45,920
Speaker 1: They slapped him with they slapped Danger Mouse with a

559
00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:48,520
Speaker 1: C and D, a cease and desist order so he

560
00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:51,520
Speaker 1: couldn't release the album in a way that made him money.

561
00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:54,640
Speaker 1: But this is also the era of what's called peer

562
00:33:54,760 --> 00:34:02,400
Speaker 1: to peer networks, tarrantine, LimeWire, yeah, whatever help you know,

563
00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:05,240
Speaker 1: And this and that is where this record found its audience,

564
00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:07,560
Speaker 1: you know, I mean, and you would you would find

565
00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:10,160
Speaker 1: mislabeled versions of it all the time back you know,

566
00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:12,360
Speaker 1: in these days to kind of hide it from the

567
00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:13,240
Speaker 1: suits or whatever.

568
00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:15,720
Speaker 2: Because this was also in the days where you would

569
00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:21,359
Speaker 2: have divisions of companies like EMI kind of scraping these

570
00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:25,800
Speaker 2: torrent sites for pirated material, for stuff that was infringing

571
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:29,080
Speaker 2: on their copyright. And then they could, I think, subpoena

572
00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:32,920
Speaker 2: your IP address from your Internet service provider and then

573
00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:35,920
Speaker 2: they would serve you, the user, with a cease and desist.

574
00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:38,680
Speaker 2: It was it was called something like the Web Sheriff.

575
00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:43,600
Speaker 2: It was some I'm guessing bought based thing, but there

576
00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:45,960
Speaker 2: had to be some human element too. And I remember

577
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:47,719
Speaker 2: this was back in the day too of like you know,

578
00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:51,320
Speaker 2: people torrenting TV shows, you get them from HBO for example,

579
00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:53,480
Speaker 2: for torrenting like the Sopranos or whatever.

580
00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:55,799
Speaker 1: But you can't stop it.

581
00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:58,239
Speaker 2: You make one person take it down, fifteen other people

582
00:34:58,280 --> 00:34:59,799
Speaker 2: are gonna put it up. And that's how the gray

583
00:34:59,840 --> 00:35:02,319
Speaker 2: Out album really kind of found this audience. And this

584
00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:04,920
Speaker 2: is also right in the era of girl Talk. Like

585
00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:07,560
Speaker 2: you mentioned girl Talk, The night Ripper of that record

586
00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:11,200
Speaker 2: samples all kinds of stuff, and if I'm not mistaken,

587
00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:13,839
Speaker 2: none of that stuff is cleared. And while I don't

588
00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:16,760
Speaker 2: think you can get like a physical copy of that record,

589
00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:20,440
Speaker 2: it's you can stream it on YouTube all day and night.

590
00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:23,799
Speaker 2: You know it's hit in this way that was part

591
00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:25,200
Speaker 2: of a cultural explosion.

592
00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:28,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, and shout out to Jane McGrath over at How

593
00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:32,840
Speaker 1: Stuff Works. Jane is an old friend of mine. Jane

594
00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:35,799
Speaker 1: wrote How Music Sampling Works, which is a great look

595
00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:38,680
Speaker 1: at some of the modern problems. Here. One thing that's

596
00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:41,960
Speaker 1: I think kind of controversial, at least to me, probably

597
00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:46,760
Speaker 1: to a lot of people. The folks who are suing

598
00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:51,839
Speaker 1: for damages in copyright cases around samples, Like you said older,

599
00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:56,560
Speaker 1: they're often not the people who created the thing being sampled.

600
00:35:56,920 --> 00:36:00,800
Speaker 1: They are companies that have acquired the rights to the music.

601
00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:12,800
Speaker 1: So now you're in a weird situation where someone made something,

602
00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:16,160
Speaker 1: they put it out in the world, and then a

603
00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:22,719
Speaker 1: company somehow acquired the ownership of that. They never made

604
00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:26,160
Speaker 1: the music, but they are suing other people who have

605
00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:30,600
Speaker 1: attempted to use or somehow profit from that. That's why

606
00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:34,799
Speaker 1: a lot of times you will see mixtapes released right

607
00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:40,279
Speaker 1: or something something sent beneath the radar where someone can

608
00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:43,560
Speaker 1: say I wasn't profiting off that, this is just a

609
00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:45,480
Speaker 1: mix for me and my friends.

610
00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:47,839
Speaker 2: Well, and that's the interesting thing too. Man and maybe

611
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:50,560
Speaker 2: you have a little more clarity or max around this.

612
00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:54,880
Speaker 2: Is it only copyright infringement? Can they only go after

613
00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:57,239
Speaker 2: you if you're profiting from it? Like what if you

614
00:36:57,320 --> 00:37:00,240
Speaker 2: just put it out on like SoundCloud and stuff? Are

615
00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:02,799
Speaker 2: there people? Because technically, you know, even if something isn't

616
00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:06,040
Speaker 2: making you money directly, if it blows up, even if

617
00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:08,840
Speaker 2: people are getting it for free, that is money in

618
00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:10,400
Speaker 2: the bank in other ways.

619
00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:15,480
Speaker 1: Right yeah, requisite disclaimer, we're not lawyers, but it seems

620
00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:18,719
Speaker 1: to be the case that if someone's used in the

621
00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:21,680
Speaker 1: aren't paying you and you find out about it, then

622
00:37:21,719 --> 00:37:25,200
Speaker 1: you can sue for damages. And if they say I

623
00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:28,359
Speaker 1: didn't make any money, then they'll tell you what the

624
00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:32,600
Speaker 1: Sixth Circuit Court said to jay Z. They'll say, get

625
00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:35,960
Speaker 1: a license or don't sample stuff. Oh and this this

626
00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:37,920
Speaker 1: Bridgeport situation.

627
00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:41,239
Speaker 2: One man company. That's what you might call like a

628
00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:44,600
Speaker 2: copyright troll or a patent troll. You know, someone who

629
00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:47,840
Speaker 2: goes and looks for things that maybe the copyright has

630
00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:51,600
Speaker 2: expired on and acquires them and then is able to

631
00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:55,080
Speaker 2: sue other artists for either sampling that material or perhaps

632
00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:57,640
Speaker 2: ripping off a melody you know, we know, like with

633
00:37:57,719 --> 00:38:01,000
Speaker 2: blurred lines for example, which wasn't a case of sampling

634
00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:04,680
Speaker 2: that was the Robin Thick song. It wasn't a case

635
00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:08,399
Speaker 2: of sample produced by Pharrell of the Neptunes, which maybe

636
00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:13,080
Speaker 2: mentioned also a hugely influential producer in this world. It

637
00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:16,479
Speaker 2: was so similar to a Marvin Gaye song. I believe

638
00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:19,920
Speaker 2: it was Marvin gay that there. That was a big issue,

639
00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:21,759
Speaker 2: and I think they ended up having to give a

640
00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:26,520
Speaker 2: portion of the royalties, you know, to that organized whatever,

641
00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:29,840
Speaker 2: you know, whoever governs Marvin Marvin Gay's estate copyright.

642
00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:33,840
Speaker 1: GE's so weird, Like remember when John Fogerty got sued

643
00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:36,200
Speaker 1: for sounding too much like himself. That's insane.

644
00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:37,840
Speaker 2: I don't even fully I need maybe he need you

645
00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:39,640
Speaker 2: to explain that to the group, because I don't think

646
00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:40,799
Speaker 2: I fully understand.

647
00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:46,680
Speaker 1: Yeah. So Fogerty, you know, the lead singer and guitar

648
00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:51,480
Speaker 1: player and songwriter of Creden's Clearwater Revival. He was sued

649
00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:58,200
Speaker 1: for self plagiarism because the label that controlled Creden's Clearwater

650
00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:02,200
Speaker 1: Revival said that a song he wrote later, not with

651
00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:05,160
Speaker 1: the label, called The Old Man Down the Road sounded

652
00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:09,000
Speaker 1: too much like a song Credence had made called Run

653
00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:10,719
Speaker 1: Through the jungle Wow.

654
00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:14,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it makes sense that that also, you know,

655
00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:19,400
Speaker 2: it speaks to the complexity of having relationships with labels

656
00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:22,720
Speaker 2: and the idea of them owning your music. We're talking

657
00:39:22,719 --> 00:39:25,040
Speaker 2: about the artists now, not just other people trying to

658
00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:29,120
Speaker 2: sample that music, where you can literally no longer own

659
00:39:29,239 --> 00:39:32,560
Speaker 2: the creative work that you've made anymore, and to your point,

660
00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:35,799
Speaker 2: be sued for doing something even that's in the vein

661
00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:39,640
Speaker 2: of that. And we know that it's hard to you know,

662
00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:42,719
Speaker 2: copyright the sound of a voice. But I think there

663
00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:47,600
Speaker 2: was also a thing recently with a case of who's

664
00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:52,480
Speaker 2: the Rick roll guy Rick Astley? I think someone Rick

665
00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:56,440
Speaker 2: Astley sued somebody for doing like a sort of a

666
00:39:56,560 --> 00:39:59,200
Speaker 2: jokey cover of never Going to Give You Up because

667
00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:02,960
Speaker 2: he said it was like an impression and it sounded

668
00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:04,840
Speaker 2: too much like him. But I don't know if that

669
00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:08,279
Speaker 2: case is actually resolved yet, because that's an interesting one.

670
00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:11,120
Speaker 1: The idea. You can you know, you can.

671
00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:14,799
Speaker 2: Copyright a line of lyric, Perhaps you can copyright a

672
00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:17,640
Speaker 2: combination of musical notes, you can copyright a recording, But

673
00:40:17,680 --> 00:40:21,040
Speaker 2: can you copyright like the sound of someone's voice.

674
00:40:21,640 --> 00:40:24,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, Another example outside of the world of music, just

675
00:40:24,760 --> 00:40:29,080
Speaker 1: audio and copyrights and trademarks and stuff. The guy from

676
00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:33,960
Speaker 1: wrestling who says let's get ready to rumble is notoriously litigious,

677
00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:39,240
Speaker 1: like to the point where apparently his team has shut down.

678
00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:42,360
Speaker 1: I haven't confirmed this, but I heard his team shut

679
00:40:42,400 --> 00:40:44,920
Speaker 1: down like a high school production. Oh yeah, I know

680
00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:45,640
Speaker 1: that is.

681
00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:48,200
Speaker 3: And he's like got a monopoly on it for boxing,

682
00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:51,320
Speaker 3: and it's what I believe his brother does UFC also,

683
00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:54,040
Speaker 3: So it's just like this one family that controls all that.

684
00:40:54,719 --> 00:40:58,520
Speaker 1: M yeah, you're right, boxing excuse me, not necessarily resting,

685
00:40:58,640 --> 00:41:05,960
Speaker 1: but this so people can get into these lawsuits accidentally. Right,

686
00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:10,480
Speaker 1: let's do one more sample. Can I just oh, can

687
00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:13,000
Speaker 1: I just double back really quickly? The case with Rick Astley,

688
00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:16,520
Speaker 1: by this is super relevant. Young Gravy was a rapper.

689
00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:20,640
Speaker 1: He got the rights to do an interpolation, in other words,

690
00:41:20,680 --> 00:41:24,000
Speaker 1: re recording the song never Gonna Give You Up. But

691
00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:27,120
Speaker 1: you did that in order to avoid having to pay,

692
00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:29,920
Speaker 1: you know, for the licensing of the actual sample. So

693
00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:30,680
Speaker 1: they recorded it.

694
00:41:30,719 --> 00:41:34,000
Speaker 2: But the lawsuit alleges from Astley that was filed in

695
00:41:34,040 --> 00:41:38,040
Speaker 2: Los Angeles Court claimed that while they did secure the

696
00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:40,960
Speaker 2: rights to re record the melody and the lyrics, they

697
00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:45,319
Speaker 2: recorded it too close to the original and infringed on

698
00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:50,240
Speaker 2: their right of publicity by quote flagrantly impersonating Astley's voice.

699
00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:54,239
Speaker 1: Right. And then here's another example to show all this

700
00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:58,200
Speaker 1: is complex. This is the story of black Box. They

701
00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:03,600
Speaker 1: sample the vote of someone named Loletta Holloway and they

702
00:42:03,960 --> 00:42:07,360
Speaker 1: use this vocal in a song they may called Ride

703
00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:11,480
Speaker 1: on Time. It's very obvious that they're using this Holloway

704
00:42:11,520 --> 00:42:17,239
Speaker 1: sample from her song love Sensation, but they're creating a

705
00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:20,759
Speaker 1: stutter with it. They're stuttering the vocal hook and they

706
00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:23,480
Speaker 1: come out with a music video. The music video shows

707
00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:28,400
Speaker 1: a model who is miming along to this altered hook.

708
00:42:29,040 --> 00:42:32,879
Speaker 1: And even though black Box cleared the sample they had

709
00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:36,160
Speaker 1: a licensing agreement with the label, they got a legal

710
00:42:36,239 --> 00:42:41,440
Speaker 1: challenge from Holloway's lawyers because they didn't credit her vocal.

711
00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:43,480
Speaker 1: They got the rights to it, but they didn't put

712
00:42:43,680 --> 00:42:46,439
Speaker 1: her name in there. And so there are a lot

713
00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:48,839
Speaker 1: of variables. There are a lot of not love that's term,

714
00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:51,439
Speaker 1: but there are a lot of stakeholders. And the best

715
00:42:51,440 --> 00:42:54,600
Speaker 1: way to put it is air on the side of caution.

716
00:42:55,880 --> 00:42:59,279
Speaker 1: All the legal precedents aside which are still being made.

717
00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:02,960
Speaker 1: You could argue, if you publish music that takes somebody

718
00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:08,320
Speaker 1: else's work samples it without permission, you could theoretically face

719
00:43:08,440 --> 00:43:11,640
Speaker 1: a legal challenge, no matter how short the sample is,

720
00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:15,319
Speaker 1: no matter how obscure. Basically, I think the rule of

721
00:43:15,360 --> 00:43:19,160
Speaker 1: thumb is you're more likely to have lawyers at your

722
00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:23,120
Speaker 1: door if you're using a very recognizable sample, and if

723
00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:26,600
Speaker 1: you're making any significant amount of money. Well, and we've.

724
00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:28,920
Speaker 2: Talked a little bit about fair use, the idea of

725
00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:31,680
Speaker 2: fair use, and you know, there are certain factors like

726
00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:35,880
Speaker 2: parody you know, for or like you know, satire, I

727
00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:39,520
Speaker 2: guess is considered a factor of fair use that could

728
00:43:39,560 --> 00:43:43,640
Speaker 2: be protected. Another one is the idea of making using

729
00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:46,799
Speaker 2: the work in a way that is transformative, and that

730
00:43:46,920 --> 00:43:50,920
Speaker 2: refers to adding something new, to give it a kind

731
00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:53,760
Speaker 2: of a recontextualize, give it a different purpose, different character,

732
00:43:54,239 --> 00:43:57,359
Speaker 2: or do not substitute for the original use of the work.

733
00:43:57,360 --> 00:43:58,040
Speaker 1: But here's the thing.

734
00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:02,919
Speaker 2: While fair use is defense, it still means you got

735
00:44:02,920 --> 00:44:03,560
Speaker 2: to go to court.

736
00:44:04,280 --> 00:44:09,439
Speaker 1: Yeah. Also, also anybody associated with the legal world, any

737
00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:12,719
Speaker 1: attorney who is a ridiculous historian. When you hear people

738
00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:15,480
Speaker 1: who are not lawyers talking about fair use, I can

739
00:44:15,520 --> 00:44:19,640
Speaker 1: only imagine that your your chest titans and your stomach drops.

740
00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:23,719
Speaker 1: Because every time I've been talking about fair use with

741
00:44:23,800 --> 00:44:26,600
Speaker 1: any sort of legal department, aw it, they all love

742
00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:29,640
Speaker 1: it. It's not there. It's not their favorite string of words

743
00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:32,680
Speaker 1: in English. So a lot of producers do get away

744
00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:37,759
Speaker 1: with using unlicensed samples, right breakbeats, drum solos. There are

745
00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:42,440
Speaker 1: also tons and tons of tracks that get lost in

746
00:44:42,520 --> 00:44:45,720
Speaker 1: studio limbo. They never see the light of day. Fast

747
00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:48,600
Speaker 1: forward several decades. Someone comes in and they say, oh wow,

748
00:44:48,640 --> 00:44:53,319
Speaker 1: I really like this hook from this unreleased nineteen sixties thing, right,

749
00:44:53,600 --> 00:44:56,399
Speaker 1: And they may not even know if it's cutting room

750
00:44:56,400 --> 00:44:59,000
Speaker 1: floor stuff. They may not even know the original artist,

751
00:44:59,560 --> 00:45:02,920
Speaker 1: and they're just like, I like this song. Imagine if

752
00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:06,359
Speaker 1: it had a cool, you know, synth beat behind it. Now,

753
00:45:06,400 --> 00:45:09,920
Speaker 1: you see, for for a little while there were CDs

754
00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:14,319
Speaker 1: that were compilations of samples and you could just take

755
00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:19,359
Speaker 1: this and do with it what you will. However, that

756
00:45:19,480 --> 00:45:23,000
Speaker 1: was a pretty short lived halcyon era. Now we're talking

757
00:45:23,040 --> 00:45:26,680
Speaker 1: about sample libraries, and we use these in the world

758
00:45:26,680 --> 00:45:29,840
Speaker 1: of podcasting because we like it saves a lot of

759
00:45:29,880 --> 00:45:32,960
Speaker 1: time and a lot of heartache to go into some

760
00:45:33,120 --> 00:45:37,840
Speaker 1: kind of archive a collection of sound cues or honestly

761
00:45:37,960 --> 00:45:40,960
Speaker 1: sound alike music. A lot of people use that, right,

762
00:45:41,320 --> 00:45:44,640
Speaker 1: Uh did you see did you watch thirty Rock? Oh? Yeah,

763
00:45:44,760 --> 00:45:47,879
Speaker 1: thirty Rock had this great this great bit. It wasn't

764
00:45:47,920 --> 00:45:49,640
Speaker 1: the main part of an episode, but they had this

765
00:45:49,719 --> 00:45:53,680
Speaker 1: great bit where they ran into legal issues trying to

766
00:45:53,800 --> 00:45:59,719
Speaker 1: do a Joplin Yeah, Jedis Jorplin or Nick Jump jorb yeah,

767
00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:04,360
Speaker 1: whatever they call it. Yeah. And this they have this

768
00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:07,640
Speaker 1: hilarious depiction of the corporate side of this, wherein the

769
00:46:07,680 --> 00:46:13,960
Speaker 1: person playing the character they cannot call Jaddis Joplin sings

770
00:46:14,280 --> 00:46:17,879
Speaker 1: songs that have to be just different enough for them

771
00:46:17,960 --> 00:46:18,880
Speaker 1: not to get sued.

772
00:46:19,120 --> 00:46:21,040
Speaker 2: Well, And I think there was actually a real life

773
00:46:21,040 --> 00:46:24,360
Speaker 2: example of that where Andre three thousand, no maybe he

774
00:46:24,239 --> 00:46:26,160
Speaker 2: was gonna do I can't remember who ended up playing.

775
00:46:26,160 --> 00:46:29,719
Speaker 2: There's Jimmy Hendrix biopic that has no Jimmy Hendrix music

776
00:46:29,719 --> 00:46:32,719
Speaker 2: in it at all. And that's interesting, right, And Like,

777
00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:35,800
Speaker 2: I'm actually working on a podcast about the Rolling Stones

778
00:46:36,600 --> 00:46:39,239
Speaker 2: and about album Exile on Main Street and rather than

779
00:46:39,680 --> 00:46:41,480
Speaker 2: you know, we could clear all the music, but it

780
00:46:41,480 --> 00:46:45,440
Speaker 2: would be very expensive, and we're trying to tell a

781
00:46:45,480 --> 00:46:48,400
Speaker 2: story in audio form. So I was actually lucky enough

782
00:46:48,440 --> 00:46:50,160
Speaker 2: to work with a bunch of really great musicians and

783
00:46:50,239 --> 00:46:52,560
Speaker 2: make it. I wouldn't call it sound alike music because

784
00:46:52,600 --> 00:46:54,200
Speaker 2: it's not like this one is supposed to be a

785
00:46:54,200 --> 00:46:56,719
Speaker 2: one to one for jumping Jack flash. It's more just

786
00:46:56,880 --> 00:47:00,840
Speaker 2: vibey music in the you know, genre of the time,

787
00:47:00,920 --> 00:47:02,680
Speaker 2: and like record it in a way that gives it

788
00:47:02,680 --> 00:47:05,799
Speaker 2: that same feel, maybe similar instrumentation. But that's a lot

789
00:47:05,800 --> 00:47:07,680
Speaker 2: of the kind of stuff you'll find on these libraries.

790
00:47:07,719 --> 00:47:10,839
Speaker 2: And then you also will have sample libraries that are

791
00:47:11,520 --> 00:47:17,000
Speaker 2: really high fidelity recordings of saying orchestra doing like oh

792
00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:22,440
Speaker 2: stressful horror Q number three, right, and anyone can use

793
00:47:22,480 --> 00:47:25,160
Speaker 2: it because it's cleared for that use. And usually when

794
00:47:25,160 --> 00:47:27,040
Speaker 2: you sign up for one of these services there are

795
00:47:27,200 --> 00:47:30,040
Speaker 2: terms of the use, and if you're not careful, you

796
00:47:30,120 --> 00:47:32,560
Speaker 2: might notice that, oh, you can't actually use it in

797
00:47:32,640 --> 00:47:35,440
Speaker 2: this setting. So always be careful if you're using stuff

798
00:47:35,440 --> 00:47:38,680
Speaker 2: like that. And sometimes they're not cleared in perpetuity across

799
00:47:38,719 --> 00:47:39,680
Speaker 2: all creation, you.

800
00:47:39,640 --> 00:47:42,200
Speaker 1: Know, right, Yeah, you have to read the fine print

801
00:47:42,440 --> 00:47:45,680
Speaker 1: very carefully because the fine print is where the ugly

802
00:47:45,760 --> 00:47:50,280
Speaker 1: things can be hidden, especially consequences. So these sample libraries

803
00:47:50,280 --> 00:47:55,080
Speaker 1: are very very useful and efficacious because they have a license,

804
00:47:55,160 --> 00:47:58,239
Speaker 1: and the license may be restricted to certain usages. It

805
00:47:58,360 --> 00:48:03,520
Speaker 1: may have any number of constraints a time window, for instance,

806
00:48:03,719 --> 00:48:06,920
Speaker 1: or saying that this can be used, but it cannot

807
00:48:06,920 --> 00:48:09,680
Speaker 1: be used in the following ways. It just goes on.

808
00:48:10,080 --> 00:48:13,279
Speaker 1: When it comes to sampling music laws, you have to

809
00:48:13,520 --> 00:48:15,360
Speaker 1: know the lay of the land, and you have to

810
00:48:15,440 --> 00:48:19,480
Speaker 1: assume that it's possible you could accidentally cross some kind

811
00:48:19,520 --> 00:48:23,000
Speaker 1: of threshold trip a legal wire of some sort. And

812
00:48:24,080 --> 00:48:26,760
Speaker 1: the one of the issues that a lot of copy

813
00:48:26,840 --> 00:48:30,080
Speaker 1: left proponents have, if you're familiar with the copy left movement,

814
00:48:30,960 --> 00:48:34,480
Speaker 1: one of the issues they have regarding copyright protection is

815
00:48:34,520 --> 00:48:38,600
Speaker 1: that it increases the barriers for up and coming artists

816
00:48:38,640 --> 00:48:41,640
Speaker 1: in the world of music. It can make things incredibly difficult.

817
00:48:41,840 --> 00:48:45,520
Speaker 1: Like if you're a musician in the United States, at

818
00:48:45,600 --> 00:48:50,000
Speaker 1: least from what I understand, music is automatically copyrighted from

819
00:48:50,160 --> 00:48:51,920
Speaker 1: the get go. You have to when you when you

820
00:48:51,960 --> 00:48:55,880
Speaker 1: commit it to some medium, right you have to So

821
00:48:55,960 --> 00:48:59,200
Speaker 1: you have to always assume you need permission to use

822
00:48:59,200 --> 00:49:02,759
Speaker 1: someone else's work in your stuff, even if it's a

823
00:49:02,840 --> 00:49:04,960
Speaker 1: tiny thing, you know what I mean. I can't believe

824
00:49:04,960 --> 00:49:07,240
Speaker 1: we got through I think we've done this on purpose,

825
00:49:07,280 --> 00:49:09,799
Speaker 1: But I can't believe we got through uh a two

826
00:49:09,920 --> 00:49:14,600
Speaker 1: part episode and didn't mention the debacle of vanilla ice.

827
00:49:14,840 --> 00:49:17,200
Speaker 1: Of course, yeah, that's probably really familiar.

828
00:49:17,440 --> 00:49:21,600
Speaker 2: But that whole clip of him defending that is part

829
00:49:21,640 --> 00:49:25,480
Speaker 2: and parcel of like not just not getting it right. So, no,

830
00:49:25,880 --> 00:49:28,520
Speaker 2: they left out a note. You know ours is is?

831
00:49:28,520 --> 00:49:30,640
Speaker 2: It repeats the note, and I think the it's under

832
00:49:30,640 --> 00:49:33,800
Speaker 2: pressure by Queen and David Bowie and this is baseline

833
00:49:35,560 --> 00:49:38,400
Speaker 2: and in the real one they just repeat that. They

834
00:49:38,400 --> 00:49:40,399
Speaker 2: don't do the pickup note and then the vanilla ice one.

835
00:49:40,440 --> 00:49:43,600
Speaker 2: I guess they added the note. I'm a little unclear.

836
00:49:43,640 --> 00:49:46,400
Speaker 2: It is the sample, right, Like, it's definitely a sample.

837
00:49:46,600 --> 00:49:49,600
Speaker 2: It's not just them copying that baseline and playing it differently,

838
00:49:49,680 --> 00:49:49,840
Speaker 2: is it.

839
00:49:50,480 --> 00:49:54,120
Speaker 1: Ah, it doesn't really matter for the purpose of this argument.

840
00:49:54,480 --> 00:49:57,080
Speaker 2: But he on behind the music or whatever they was,

841
00:49:57,280 --> 00:50:00,360
Speaker 2: defends it by saying, no, no, see ours is different. Yeah,

842
00:50:00,480 --> 00:50:02,680
Speaker 2: ay has one extra note and that's just kind of

843
00:50:02,680 --> 00:50:05,600
Speaker 2: missing the point. But what ended up happening with that?

844
00:50:05,640 --> 00:50:07,840
Speaker 2: Did he have to give up a massive portion of

845
00:50:07,880 --> 00:50:09,400
Speaker 2: his royalties? I think so.

846
00:50:10,160 --> 00:50:15,399
Speaker 1: Actually he agreed to a private settlement. They stayed out

847
00:50:15,400 --> 00:50:17,759
Speaker 1: of court because he paid to have the rights to

848
00:50:17,960 --> 00:50:22,200
Speaker 1: under pressure, and then he credited both Bowie and Queen

849
00:50:22,400 --> 00:50:27,560
Speaker 1: on I Sized Baby, so the songwriting credit still goes

850
00:50:27,600 --> 00:50:30,719
Speaker 1: to them. That you know, that's a all's well, that

851
00:50:30,840 --> 00:50:32,959
Speaker 1: ends well sort of thing, and not all of these

852
00:50:33,000 --> 00:50:38,239
Speaker 1: things end well. But be on the side of the air,

853
00:50:38,360 --> 00:50:40,719
Speaker 1: on the side of caution as as a creator, as

854
00:50:40,760 --> 00:50:44,839
Speaker 1: a musician, because even with the best of intentions right,

855
00:50:44,880 --> 00:50:47,799
Speaker 1: even if you're most people doing this aren't out for

856
00:50:47,880 --> 00:50:50,759
Speaker 1: a cash grab. When you're making music, you're just inspired

857
00:50:50,800 --> 00:50:53,920
Speaker 1: by something you want to share and communicate that inspiration

858
00:50:54,160 --> 00:50:59,520
Speaker 1: tis a noble thing, but you gotta be careful. Unlike

859
00:50:59,640 --> 00:51:02,959
Speaker 1: music licensing, to do a cover right and sell a cover,

860
00:51:03,400 --> 00:51:07,520
Speaker 1: you don't have to have a sampling license. This means

861
00:51:07,560 --> 00:51:12,520
Speaker 1: that the holder of the copyright doesn't have any obligation

862
00:51:12,760 --> 00:51:18,319
Speaker 1: to grant you permission. The original rights holder can basically

863
00:51:18,520 --> 00:51:21,800
Speaker 1: create their own playing field. They can decide the terms

864
00:51:21,840 --> 00:51:24,960
Speaker 1: for clearing a sample. They can say no.

865
00:51:25,840 --> 00:51:27,960
Speaker 2: Case in point to the settlement out of court with

866
00:51:28,040 --> 00:51:31,640
Speaker 2: Bowie and Queen, they obviously were good sports about it

867
00:51:31,680 --> 00:51:35,440
Speaker 2: relatively or that also was a little earlier on right

868
00:51:35,640 --> 00:51:38,640
Speaker 2: and before maybe their lawyers would have been like, nah,

869
00:51:38,680 --> 00:51:41,239
Speaker 2: we want to get points on this for like ever

870
00:51:41,360 --> 00:51:44,359
Speaker 2: in all time. Apparently e ice Baby generates about half

871
00:51:44,400 --> 00:51:47,239
Speaker 2: a million dollars a year, you know, in royalties.

872
00:51:47,400 --> 00:51:47,680
Speaker 1: Wow.

873
00:51:48,239 --> 00:51:52,400
Speaker 2: There are certain examples where artists who have been sampled

874
00:51:52,480 --> 00:51:55,360
Speaker 2: and hasn't been cleared have pushed to the point of

875
00:51:55,440 --> 00:51:59,320
Speaker 2: now they get every bit of that you know money.

876
00:51:59,760 --> 00:52:02,440
Speaker 2: Ye like with the case of Walk on the wild

877
00:52:02,440 --> 00:52:04,680
Speaker 2: Side by Lou Reed and a tribe called Quest.

878
00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:08,680
Speaker 1: How about this one Old Crow Medicine show how they

879
00:52:08,960 --> 00:52:13,200
Speaker 1: broke out with wagon Wheel that skyrocketed them to national

880
00:52:13,239 --> 00:52:17,799
Speaker 1: and global acclaim. Now, of course, these guys Old Crow,

881
00:52:18,000 --> 00:52:20,879
Speaker 1: they are a bunch of very talented musicians. They've had

882
00:52:20,920 --> 00:52:24,560
Speaker 1: a lot of past members, but they're they're all really good. No,

883
00:52:24,640 --> 00:52:29,920
Speaker 1: Trump's in the squad. Wagon Wheel is based on an

884
00:52:30,040 --> 00:52:34,160
Speaker 1: unfinished Bob Dylan song, and they had to go back

885
00:52:34,320 --> 00:52:38,240
Speaker 1: and work with Bob Dylan's team to make sure everything

886
00:52:38,400 --> 00:52:40,719
Speaker 1: was right and not to sound too mafioso about it,

887
00:52:40,840 --> 00:52:45,319
Speaker 1: to make sure everyone was made whole. Oh yeah, exactly now.

888
00:52:45,239 --> 00:52:48,040
Speaker 2: And then that's you know, and that's not sampling, that's

889
00:52:48,320 --> 00:52:51,960
Speaker 2: a cover or an interpolation. If you will because they

890
00:52:52,480 --> 00:52:54,520
Speaker 2: kind of took it in a different direction because it

891
00:52:54,560 --> 00:52:57,560
Speaker 2: was not a completed song. So it's hard to cover

892
00:52:57,680 --> 00:53:01,680
Speaker 2: something that hasn't been fully you know. But as y'all

893
00:53:01,719 --> 00:53:04,160
Speaker 2: can see, I mean, this whole world just has so

894
00:53:04,320 --> 00:53:06,400
Speaker 2: many interesting ins and outs and we're not at the

895
00:53:06,480 --> 00:53:08,960
Speaker 2: end of it by a long shot. Because now, if anything,

896
00:53:09,000 --> 00:53:11,319
Speaker 2: the playing field is wide open, and that we have

897
00:53:11,400 --> 00:53:14,120
Speaker 2: this wealth of records, you know, that you can get

898
00:53:14,160 --> 00:53:17,480
Speaker 2: at thrift stores for no money, and interesting up andcoming artists,

899
00:53:17,480 --> 00:53:20,799
Speaker 2: things like vapor Wave where people are sampling, like you know,

900
00:53:20,840 --> 00:53:23,120
Speaker 2: literally there's a whole I just got this record from

901
00:53:23,200 --> 00:53:26,239
Speaker 2: Poland by this artist called Macintosh. Plus I got it

902
00:53:26,239 --> 00:53:28,880
Speaker 2: from Poland because it's a bootleg. You can't get this

903
00:53:29,000 --> 00:53:32,319
Speaker 2: album in any sanctioned form because it's just full of

904
00:53:32,400 --> 00:53:36,160
Speaker 2: uncleared samples, like you know, half speed kind of lounge

905
00:53:36,280 --> 00:53:39,400
Speaker 2: music and you know, weird old like radio commercials and

906
00:53:39,440 --> 00:53:41,800
Speaker 2: like that's the vapor wave things. So there are whole

907
00:53:41,880 --> 00:53:46,680
Speaker 2: new musical cultures around uncleared samples. But it's all taken

908
00:53:46,719 --> 00:53:50,080
Speaker 2: to the internet. Oh you know, yeah, it very much is.

909
00:53:50,440 --> 00:53:54,439
Speaker 1: And here is where I think we we wrap our

910
00:53:54,680 --> 00:53:58,000
Speaker 1: series for today, by which I mean we're both about

911
00:53:58,000 --> 00:54:02,640
Speaker 1: to freestyle. I'm kiddet, we are going to We're gonna

912
00:54:02,640 --> 00:54:05,120
Speaker 1: call it a day. This is such, This is such

913
00:54:05,160 --> 00:54:09,000
Speaker 1: a journey, and it's one that continues, and we wanted

914
00:54:09,000 --> 00:54:12,759
Speaker 1: to explore the origin of what we call sampling and

915
00:54:12,920 --> 00:54:17,200
Speaker 1: music all the way to the modern day. Sampling will continue.

916
00:54:17,560 --> 00:54:21,560
Speaker 1: Legislation is always outpaced by technology, and somewhere right now,

917
00:54:21,600 --> 00:54:25,799
Speaker 1: as we record, there is a mad genius in a

918
00:54:25,920 --> 00:54:30,680
Speaker 1: studio or maybe in their garage building the next breakthrough

919
00:54:30,960 --> 00:54:34,080
Speaker 1: in the world of sampling, and I, for one can't

920
00:54:34,080 --> 00:54:34,640
Speaker 1: wait to hear it.

921
00:54:35,160 --> 00:54:37,480
Speaker 2: No, I can't either, And like you know, I am

922
00:54:37,680 --> 00:54:40,200
Speaker 2: I'm not saying I am said mad genius or anything,

923
00:54:40,239 --> 00:54:43,160
Speaker 2: but basically all the records that I have down in

924
00:54:43,200 --> 00:54:47,800
Speaker 2: my studio are weird thrift store fines of like drum

925
00:54:48,000 --> 00:54:51,680
Speaker 2: you know, drum circles and children's records with weird little

926
00:54:51,719 --> 00:54:54,800
Speaker 2: melodies and stuff from the sixties. It's like political spoken

927
00:54:54,840 --> 00:54:58,840
Speaker 2: word things or you know, congo bands or whatever. You know,

928
00:54:58,880 --> 00:55:01,319
Speaker 2: a lot of weird cre ristian records that were made

929
00:55:01,480 --> 00:55:04,319
Speaker 2: probably in very limited runs by churches. They end up

930
00:55:04,360 --> 00:55:07,120
Speaker 2: in these thrift stores around the South here. But to

931
00:55:07,160 --> 00:55:09,439
Speaker 2: your point, Ben I love sampling this stuff for fun.

932
00:55:09,520 --> 00:55:11,200
Speaker 2: I would be very careful if I was going to

933
00:55:11,239 --> 00:55:14,319
Speaker 2: release it, because even if I think no one's even

934
00:55:14,360 --> 00:55:17,560
Speaker 2: maybe alive associated with this weird religious record you know

935
00:55:17,600 --> 00:55:20,600
Speaker 2: from the sixties, but who knows, maybe someone is and

936
00:55:20,640 --> 00:55:22,680
Speaker 2: if the song became a hit, all of a sudden

937
00:55:22,680 --> 00:55:25,200
Speaker 2: that person takes notice. The fact that they committed that

938
00:55:25,239 --> 00:55:29,239
Speaker 2: thing to vinyl in the sixties is proof that they

939
00:55:29,280 --> 00:55:30,080
Speaker 2: own the copyright.

940
00:55:30,520 --> 00:55:34,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, so be careful out there, folks. We can't wait

941
00:55:34,400 --> 00:55:38,960
Speaker 1: to hear the next generation of sampling, the next generation

942
00:55:39,239 --> 00:55:43,520
Speaker 1: of music concrete, big, big thanks to super producer mister

943
00:55:43,560 --> 00:55:48,080
Speaker 1: Max Williams. Huge thanks to research associate Jeff Bartlett, who

944
00:55:48,080 --> 00:55:50,919
Speaker 1: really whit hard in the paint on this one. And

945
00:55:51,760 --> 00:55:54,399
Speaker 1: thanks to let's see who would be the most likely

946
00:55:54,480 --> 00:55:57,520
Speaker 1: to sue us for copyright in frenchman Jonathan Strickland.

947
00:55:57,680 --> 00:56:02,719
Speaker 2: M Yeah, well I'm not. I ain't scared. Let's in

948
00:56:02,719 --> 00:56:05,719
Speaker 2: a fringe away on mister Strickland man. This is a

949
00:56:05,760 --> 00:56:10,000
Speaker 2: fantastic conversation, Ben, and thanks Max for always being with

950
00:56:10,080 --> 00:56:13,440
Speaker 2: us as our super producer, you know, on the ones

951
00:56:13,440 --> 00:56:15,279
Speaker 2: and twos, as Ben would say, and now we know

952
00:56:15,320 --> 00:56:17,520
Speaker 2: where that actually we didn't really explain the one on

953
00:56:17,920 --> 00:56:20,200
Speaker 2: the one being the left turn table, two being the

954
00:56:20,280 --> 00:56:20,959
Speaker 2: right turn table.

955
00:56:20,960 --> 00:56:24,440
Speaker 1: There you go, There you go, folks, We'll see you

956
00:56:24,480 --> 00:56:24,879
Speaker 1: next time.

957
00:56:31,880 --> 00:56:35,719
Speaker 2: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

958
00:56:35,760 --> 00:56:37,920
Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.