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Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in a

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Speaker 1: cult or a high control group.

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Speaker 2: Or if you've had experience with manipulation or abuse of

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Speaker 2: power that you'd like to share.

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Speaker 1: Leave us a message on our hotline number at three

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Speaker 1: four seven eight six trust.

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Speaker 2: That's three four seven eight six eight seven eight seven eight.

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Speaker 1: Or showed us an email at trust Me pod at

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Speaker 1: gmail dot com.

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Speaker 2: Trust me, Trust for trust me.

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Speaker 3: I'm like a swat person. I've never lived to you,

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Speaker 3: I never If.

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Speaker 2: You think that one person has all the answers, don't

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Speaker 2: welcome to trust Me. The podcast about cults, extreme belief

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Speaker 2: and manipulation from two reluctant debunkers who've actually experienced it.

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Speaker 2: I'm Mola Blanc. My fellow reluctant debunker Megan Elizabeth is

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Speaker 2: out sick today. She will be back with us next week,

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Speaker 2: but she was able to participate in this a very

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Speaker 2: interesting interview with our guest today. Our guest today is

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Speaker 2: doctor Na Kanewski, psychologist, professor and debunker of pseudoscience psychology

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Speaker 2: tiktoks something I'm very passionate about, y'all. She's going to

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Speaker 2: talk talk to us about the misinformation videos that got

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Speaker 2: her started on the path of debunking, why mental health

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Speaker 2: labels can be helpful but can also lead us to

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Speaker 2: incorrectly self diagnose and take on labels that do not

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Speaker 2: belong to us, and why it's a problem when we

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Speaker 2: make a diagnosis our entire identity. She's also going to

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Speaker 2: come in hot and talk about beloved psychology figures such

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Speaker 2: as Besil, vander Kolk, Gabermante, and doctor Amen and how

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Speaker 2: they have cult like followings despite frequently peddling pseudoscience. It's uncomfortable, guys,

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Speaker 2: it's uncomfortable. We're going to talk about the problems with

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Speaker 2: polyvagel theory, why stories of resilience can be a helpful

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Speaker 2: alternative to focusing on trauma, and why it is so

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Speaker 2: dang painful to change our minds. One thing to be

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Speaker 2: aware of going into this episode is that if you

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Speaker 2: love pop psychology, if the body keeps the score changed

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Speaker 2: your life, don't let it take away from that. What

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Speaker 2: matters is what is actually helping you get through your shit.

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Speaker 2: We all need different things, and even if some of

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Speaker 2: the foundational science behind some of them is maybe a

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Speaker 2: little bit off, the reason why it works is wrong. Ultimately,

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Speaker 2: what matters is that we get better right, So feel

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Speaker 2: free to take what works for you and leave the rest.

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Speaker 2: And you know, if it makes you a little uncomfortable

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Speaker 2: to hear some of the stuff about these people, well

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Speaker 2: you know, you don't have to listen. But in my opinion,

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Speaker 2: it's worth examining the people we hold up as experts

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Speaker 2: and really evaluating what's real and what isn't here, because

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Speaker 2: that's the only way we can actually advance if we're

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Speaker 2: building on actual, real evidence based information. Either way, it's

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Speaker 2: a really interesting discussion. Ena is a little firecracker and

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Speaker 2: I love her. Before we get into it with her,

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Speaker 2: I'm gonna just tell y'all my own cultiest thing, because

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Speaker 2: I'm so low today, I am very afraid of AI. However,

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Speaker 2: my culti thing right now is that I'm starting to

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Speaker 2: actually really desire AI to take over certain spheres of

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Speaker 2: our society. And the reason is that I just you know,

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Speaker 2: doing this podcast, watching the news, watching how much people

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Speaker 2: are in fluenced by what they see on social media,

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Speaker 2: what they see on media in general. We are so hijackable.

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Speaker 2: I know that's probably not a word, but we are

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Speaker 2: so susceptible to influence. All of us are so vulnerable

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Speaker 2: to influence, and it's just these little ways that we

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Speaker 2: get hijacked based on something that makes us feel fear,

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Speaker 2: something that makes us feel like we belong or like

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Speaker 2: that we don't belong. There's so many ways that as

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Speaker 2: humans were vulnerable to being manipulated into situations that maybe

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Speaker 2: we wouldn't want, or making decisions that are not actually

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Speaker 2: the best decisions because they're not truly rational and listen,

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Speaker 2: I hate logic bros. I find them extremely annoying. Human

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Speaker 2: emotion is incredibly important, but like you know, when a

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Speaker 2: doctor's diagnosis changes based on whether or not he's had

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Speaker 2: lunch that day, which is a real thing, or how

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Speaker 2: recently he ate or she ate or they ate. It

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Speaker 2: makes me think we would be better off in the

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Speaker 2: scientific community and in the healthcare system specifically, and also

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Speaker 2: in politics if there were or robots running shit. However,

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Speaker 2: the problem then becomes humans are the ones who design

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Speaker 2: the code, and of course humans are biased as well.

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Speaker 2: So how do you actually make AI objective and humanistic

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Speaker 2: and valuing equality for all people? That is a question

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Speaker 2: I do not know the answer to. This is an

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Speaker 2: area I truly know nothing about, but I'm just becoming

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Speaker 2: disillusioned with the limitations of the human brain, and how

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Speaker 2: easy it is to make us afraid, or make us

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Speaker 2: not remember the latest research because we haven't read it recently,

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Speaker 2: or make us prioritize an issue that's really not the

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Speaker 2: most important issue in that moment. I want healthcare that's

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Speaker 2: like totally optimized. Am I an optimized bro?

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Speaker 3: Who?

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Speaker 2: Am I? I don't want to be a logic pro

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Speaker 2: or an optimized bro. I just want people to have

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Speaker 2: good healthcare. And I want a political system that actually

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Speaker 2: serves people. And like, you know, going to it's the

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Speaker 2: same thing I talked about when I went to DC

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Speaker 2: to advocate for the brain injury bill. The politicians in

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Speaker 2: the Senate and the House, they're having shit hitched at

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Speaker 2: them all day long, and the thing that they actually

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Speaker 2: choose to take on is so dependent on their feelings,

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Speaker 2: and it's dependent on like who else can get on

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Speaker 2: board with it. And there are those people's feelings. So

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Speaker 2: wouldn't it be better if there were no human emotions

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Speaker 2: involved and it was just a I know, probably not,

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Speaker 2: because it would probably kill us. All Okay, I believe

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Speaker 2: in nothing. That's the answer, All right, y'all. I think

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Speaker 2: it's time to talk to doctor Koanevsky. Prepare yourself. I

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Speaker 2: love her all right, here we go. Welcome doctor Ina

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Speaker 2: Kanevsky to trust me. It's an honor to have you today.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much for being here.

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Speaker 3: Thank you for having me.

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Speaker 2: I have been following you for a while because you

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Speaker 2: have this incredible Internet presence where you debunk misinformation in

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Speaker 2: the realm of psychology and science, and so I would

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Speaker 2: like to begin with just telling us a little bit

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Speaker 2: about your history and how you came to study psychology.

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Speaker 3: That is a very long story. I do not know

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Speaker 3: if you want that long a story, but basically I

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Speaker 3: wanted to study psychology in high school. But before high school,

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Speaker 3: I wanted to become a teacher, and I kept changing

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Speaker 3: my mind about what subject every year. Whoever was my

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Speaker 3: favorite teacher, That's what I was going to teach. And

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Speaker 3: so in back in the Soviet Union, I went to

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Speaker 3: a special high school program for future teachers, and that's

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Speaker 3: when they taught us psychology. And then I fell in

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Speaker 3: love and I said, that is what I want to do.

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Speaker 3: But there's been a Soviet Union in the late eighties

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Speaker 3: where there was still a fair amount of antisemitism around

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Speaker 3: and there were actual quotas for how many things Jewish

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Speaker 3: people could do. Going into a university psychology program was

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Speaker 3: not actually something that was possible. So my parents talked

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Speaker 3: me into a full back plan of becoming a maths teacher,

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Speaker 3: which is exactly what I did, and I taught mass

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Speaker 3: for about a year and a half before we ended

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Speaker 3: up immigrating in the United States and I thought, well,

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Speaker 3: this is supposedly a land of a opportunity, so this

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Speaker 3: is my opportunity to become a school psychologist, which is

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Speaker 3: what I wanted. But I did not understand the educational

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Speaker 3: system at all. This was mid nineties, and I accidentally

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Speaker 3: ended up getting masters in a psychologist specialty that they

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Speaker 3: didn't want to practice in. So then I went and

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Speaker 3: got a PhD, which I discovered that after all, I

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Speaker 3: actually still like being a teacher just psychology.

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Speaker 2: Was there a moment where you were debating whether or

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Speaker 2: not you would become like a therapist psychologist?

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Speaker 3: And yes, so my master, Well, because I wanted to

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Speaker 3: go into school psychology. That was my goal when I started,

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Speaker 3: and I there was no information that we now can

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Speaker 3: give our students, and I accidentally ended up in one

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Speaker 3: of the early applied behavior analysis programs, and I did

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Speaker 3: some consultant while I was in it, and I realized

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Speaker 3: that wasn't for me. So my advisor talked me into

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Speaker 3: going into research because he thought I was good at it.

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Speaker 3: Then after a while I thought maybe I could still

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Speaker 3: just go and get licensed and practice, And then I

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Speaker 3: realized I may not make a good therapist. In fact,

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Speaker 3: my online followers regularly tell me is that I am

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Speaker 3: a terrible therapist. They have all but side manner at all,

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Speaker 3: And how could I possibly have clients which I will

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Speaker 3: disable good things that I don't.

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Speaker 2: Well, you're telling people uncomfortable truths, which could be the

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Speaker 2: mark of a good therapist. But of course the way

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Speaker 2: we deliver it is important. That makes sense, because yeah,

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Speaker 2: I was curious. Most people do not take their practice

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Speaker 2: or their area of researcher study or expertise to TikTok

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Speaker 2: to educate people. It's thankless work, at least it seems

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Speaker 2: to me to be. There's so many people who are

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Speaker 2: just like mad all the time, and you're you're doing

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Speaker 2: a great job. So this sort of desired instinct in

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Speaker 2: you to educate. I assume that's how you kind of

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Speaker 2: started to debunk bad tiktoks.

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Speaker 3: I literally started making tiktoks for my actual students in

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Speaker 3: a summer of twenty twenty when we were all teaching

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Speaker 3: everything online. And I've been teaching online for years, but

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Speaker 3: I never made videos. I don't like talking to myself.

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Speaker 3: I tend to look get lost in the weed somewhere,

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Speaker 3: and I need the audience response usually to talk at

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Speaker 3: any length. So it was an expectation that you're going

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Speaker 3: to make videos, and I didn't want to make videos,

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Speaker 3: but my daughter was on TikTok and I was watching

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Speaker 3: tiktoks for that reason, and I thought, there's potential here.

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Speaker 3: There are people making these funny clips or putting on clips,

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Speaker 3: and they can be educational and people can in fact

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Speaker 3: convey information to music or by making a joke and

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Speaker 3: wearing funny outfits. And I started making these little clips

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Speaker 3: using the TikTok trends and sounds and all that, specifically

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Speaker 3: aiming at my students in my summer class that summer,

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Speaker 3: so they were literally meant to be educational. They followed

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Speaker 3: my SYC one on one program and it was probably

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Speaker 3: like the best summer class I had. Students really liked it,

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Speaker 3: so I kept doing it in a fall and only

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Speaker 3: accidentally stumbled into the world of TikTok misinformation and ended

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Speaker 3: up correcting that misinformation.

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Speaker 1: Was there like a video in particular that you saw,

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Speaker 1: or you were just like, this is so full of

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Speaker 1: misinformation that I have to clap back, or was it

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Speaker 1: just general misinformation?

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Speaker 3: It was sort of like a perfect storm of three videos,

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Speaker 3: and it all happened literally right around the New year

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Speaker 3: of twenty twenty one. And I did not mean to

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Speaker 3: because I, by myself, I was not seeing on my

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Speaker 3: fail page a whole lot of misinformation. I was following

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Speaker 3: a lot of other academic people and professionals, but I

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Speaker 3: was not seeing all the nonsense. One of the people

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Speaker 3: I was following got into a disagreement with one of

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Speaker 3: these psychology influencers who was telling people about things from

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Speaker 3: a position of great authority as the next where she

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Speaker 3: was in fact a sports journalist in the social media

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Speaker 3: and like a weather goal before that, I think, and

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Speaker 3: I did sort of a frankly snarky video mostly to

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Speaker 3: support my friend and pointed out that she's not qualified

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Speaker 3: and she's sharing something that's not supported by evidence and

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Speaker 3: misinforming people and shouldn't do that. So it was that one.

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Speaker 3: Then there was this guy who was saying things about

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Speaker 3: how trauma is and your hips while wearing very short shorts,

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Speaker 3: and and I, you know, that I just thought was ridiculous,

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Speaker 3: and I was basically this hips. It's short for hypothalamus,

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Speaker 3: which is where we keep memories, including the traumatic one. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And then there was this as a video, and that

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Speaker 3: one really took off and it had like millions and

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Speaker 3: millions of views of this girl basically saying that when

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Speaker 3: you look at somebody and you laugh, and psychology says

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Speaker 3: that that's the person that you are attracted to. Oh wow,

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Speaker 3: psychology says video and I basically just said, psychologist says

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Speaker 3: no such thing, right, right, And these three videos, basically

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Speaker 3: each of them went viral, especially the psychologist says no

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Speaker 3: such thing one. And suddenly people started tagging me in

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Speaker 3: these videos and sending me these videos and asking me

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Speaker 3: about these videos. And I was like, wow, there is

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Speaker 3: just so much mess out there. So that kind of

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Speaker 3: just drew me to somebody has to be doing something

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Speaker 3: about that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they drive me crazy. And I'm speaking of someone

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Speaker 2: who has found some psychology videos to be very helpful,

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Speaker 2: you know, and talking about certain kinds of anxiety or whatever,

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Speaker 2: and then other kinds would be very, very unhelpful because

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Speaker 2: I was just totally misdiagnosing myself, but it was not the.

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Speaker 4: Correct just self diagnosing all the techno.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I see a lot of friends

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Speaker 2: doing this, a lot of people who are genuinely very

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Speaker 2: smart people. But there's something about someone on the internet

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Speaker 2: saying something with an authoritative tone that just makes us go, oh,

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Speaker 2: that sounds like it would be the easy answer to

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Speaker 2: everything that I experienced. That sounds like a nice way

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Speaker 2: to like organize my existence and make sense of who

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Speaker 2: I am. But what I want to know from you is,

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Speaker 2: I guess where does it become harmful? At what point

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Speaker 2: is it not helping us anymore?

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Speaker 3: You know, a lot of it is not even about

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Speaker 3: how authoritative a person sounds or how confident they sound,

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Speaker 3: but how relatable they are. This is the biggest pushback

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Speaker 3: I tend to get from people if I criticize something

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Speaker 3: and they say, well, they are relatable and you're just

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Speaker 3: a professor and you can't possibly understand because you don't

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Speaker 3: have this problem or you don't have that problem. Well,

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Speaker 3: it's not like I am going and announce in my

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Speaker 3: diagnosis on every video that I'm going to make sol

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Speaker 3: they don't know what problem I have. They should knowledge I.

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Speaker 2: Have, but want you're saying, people are saying it should

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Speaker 2: be coming from someone who has that diagnosis.

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Speaker 3: Correct, as if a person like you know, just because

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Speaker 3: I had cancer doesn't make me an oncologist. I can't

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Speaker 3: go around telling people what they should be doing. Right.

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Speaker 3: But most of the time, a lot of the time,

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Speaker 3: I will say, people are looking for this the way

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Speaker 3: that you were describing it, in that they're trying to

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Speaker 3: understand what is going on, and they're trying to organize

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Speaker 3: how they see what's happening to them. Right, We as humans,

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Speaker 3: we are pattern finding machines. Essentially, we are trying to

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Speaker 3: make sense out of all of the surrounding walls of

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Speaker 3: information that's coming at us from the outside but also

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Speaker 3: from the inside and here and here everywhere. Right, And

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Speaker 3: it's helpful to us to name things. We like to

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Speaker 3: name things. It also is convenient for us when we

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Speaker 3: have names for things that we can tell others. That's

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Speaker 3: like shorthand right. Instead of giving a long explanation of

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Speaker 3: what kinds of things have been happening to me in

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Speaker 3: the past few weeks. I can just say I have runkindness,

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Speaker 3: and then people know like they know because they've seen it,

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Speaker 3: they've been there, they understand what kinds of symptoms. Right.

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Speaker 3: That is, so when somebody says I have ADHD or

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Speaker 3: I'm artistic or I'm depressed, people also know, and that's okay,

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Speaker 3: that's helpful. Except not all of our issues or patterns

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Speaker 3: of behavior are problematic or clinical. So one issue is

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Speaker 3: when we start thinking that something is wrong when nothing

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Speaker 3: is wrong, when we are just normal, regular human beings

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Speaker 3: living in a very complicated world where a lot of things,

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Speaker 3: frankly recently have gone wrong, and a lot of people

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Speaker 3: very acting to all the things that have gone wrong.

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Speaker 3: At the same time, we also had a lot of

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Speaker 3: people who perhaps did have ADHD and they were not

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Speaker 3: diagnosed with it, and when a lot of things have

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Speaker 3: gone wrong in the world, that started affecting them and

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Speaker 3: they were trying to figure out why suddenly everything so

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Speaker 3: much worse than before where they've managed before. So I

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Speaker 3: can say, don't look for the name and don't look

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Speaker 3: for the label. But I have to say to people,

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Speaker 3: and I have been saying this, sometimes we hit on

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Speaker 3: a label that's not ours, and we accept it because

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Speaker 3: we relate to all of the content. We seeing ourselves

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Speaker 3: in what somebody else is saying, and we think, well,

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Speaker 3: this is me, this is the name for what's happening

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Speaker 3: to me, and we stop thinking about it or looking.

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Speaker 3: We just accepted and we start seeking out and especially

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Speaker 3: on TikTok or on Instagram, we start being fed content

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Speaker 3: about this, about the label specifically, and the more we

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Speaker 3: look at it, the more we then start drowning in

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Speaker 3: confirmation bias, where we're seeing, oh, that fits, that fits,

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Speaker 3: and we disregard it isn't that doesn't. And if it's not,

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Speaker 3: if the problem like execuly dysfunction, for example, if it's

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Speaker 3: caused by something else and we decided, no, we have

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Speaker 3: this neurodevelopmental condition, that's just how we are. We're doing

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Speaker 3: ourselves at a service, right because we are not going

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Speaker 3: to find all of the right help this way.

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Speaker 1: It is a perfect storm of like if you search

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Speaker 1: something and the engine, the algorithm is going to keep

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Speaker 1: feeding you the thing. Also, it's so expensive to get

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Speaker 1: a professional to help you.

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Speaker 4: You can see why it happens.

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Speaker 3: But then we also can talk about this blending of

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Speaker 3: diagnosis and identity. Yes, where people once they accept that

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Speaker 3: this is me, and especially if what is me something

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Speaker 3: that is new, developmental and error, for people consider them

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Speaker 3: themselves to be a neuro divergent person, and that's an

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Speaker 3: identity label. It's no longer a diagnosis. And once something

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Speaker 3: becomes your identity, you are not going to let go

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Speaker 3: of it anymore because that becomes you. This is now

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Speaker 3: what you live in and it may actually again be you,

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Speaker 3: and it may not be you. It may be just

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Speaker 3: something you accepted and decided that is yours. But once

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Speaker 3: you've lived it for a while, and once you've immersed

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Speaker 3: yourself in a community and connected with others and these

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Speaker 3: are now your people. And then you go to a

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Speaker 3: professional and a professional no, see, because you didn't do

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Speaker 3: this and this and your childhood, it doesn't fit. It's

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Speaker 3: something else. People are not willing necessarily to accept that

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Speaker 3: as an answer because they've already accepted that, not just

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Speaker 3: as a diagnosis, but as identity.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: I mean, it's there's such an overlap with what we

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Speaker 2: see with codes, which is that once you've forged this

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Speaker 2: identity as part of this group, anything that feels like

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Speaker 2: it's attacking that people want to reject it. This is

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Speaker 2: who I am. I am a part of this group.

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Speaker 2: If you say something bad about the group, you're saying

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Speaker 2: something bad about me, and therefore I can't listen to

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Speaker 2: what you're saying, which is it's fascinating when it comes

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Speaker 2: to psychology labels. I wouldn't think that that would be

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Speaker 2: a thing that what people would get so attached to

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Speaker 2: as an identity, but I guess because there's such a

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Speaker 2: community around it now on the Internet, and that community

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Speaker 2: is oftentimes I don't want to say all the time.

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Speaker 2: Of course, there are legitimate people out there who know

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Speaker 2: what they're talking about, but there are people who are

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Speaker 2: basically listing every possible symptom of human could have and saying,

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Speaker 2: if you have that year with us, you're in here,

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Speaker 2: You're in this community. So in a way, it's the

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Speaker 2: same thing. It's offering community people who need it.

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Speaker 3: There is very much i'm seeing now pushback starting in

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Speaker 3: the autism community, for example, in TikTok and real spaces

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Speaker 3: where it got so bad that people started really aggressively

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Speaker 3: attacking for example, parents who are taking care of kids

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Speaker 3: with very severe support needs, and those kids are not

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Speaker 3: able to communicate effectively, they're not going to be and

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Speaker 3: sometimes they're not kids. Sometimes they grow up. And that

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Speaker 3: was actually one of the reasons they didn't stay in

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Speaker 3: practice is I've said that not good enough person to

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Speaker 3: work in an environment with adults with developmental disabilities and

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Speaker 3: in institutionalized settings sometimes with there are no parents who

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Speaker 3: are able to take care of them. That is what

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Speaker 3: happens with severe disabilities, like, for example, very high support

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Speaker 3: needs autism, where an individual has very severe communication deficits

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Speaker 3: and they are very dependent on their caretakers, and the

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Speaker 3: community was pushing away the caretakers because it was becoming

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Speaker 3: mostly a mass of people who identified autism in themselves right,

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Speaker 3: and they wanted to argue that all artistic people are

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Speaker 3: able community to achieve communication and to achieve various accomplishments,

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Speaker 3: and that they need to be taking themselves, but they can't.

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Speaker 3: That's literally one of the biggest issues is communication and

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Speaker 3: one of the biggest support needs is communication support. And

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Speaker 3: seeing that kind of pushback and separation and taken over

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Speaker 3: from a professional point of view was kind of scary

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Speaker 3: because it looked like people would be denied access to

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Speaker 3: opportunities and resources by others. Whould be saying, no, rename

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Speaker 3: this person. This person is not like us.

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Speaker 4: Wow.

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Speaker 3: That's the whole issue of how we're labeling things, of course,

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Speaker 3: and the combining of different syndromes and conditions into one

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Speaker 3: audism spectrum disorder. But there is now pushback, that is

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Speaker 3: pushback from artistic individuals with level one level to support

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Speaker 3: needs online against this exclusion and against pushing away as

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Speaker 3: the parents, against separating from more disabled individuals, against claiming

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Speaker 3: that autism is just an identity and not a disability,

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Speaker 3: against people making videos saying we artistic people do x

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Speaker 3: y z and where xyz is not even anything that

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Speaker 3: artistic people specifically do, for example. And so I am

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Speaker 3: hoping there is an incommunity correction that might take place.

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Speaker 3: I just was thinking that that's like a thing that

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Speaker 3: happens where it became very cult like, right, and kind

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Speaker 3: of all right, But it's kind of funny you should

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Speaker 3: mention the cults in this context because I have on

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Speaker 3: my link tree a number of bibliographies that I create

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Speaker 3: to support the content and to provide people with academic

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Speaker 3: resources for things, and one of those bibliographies it's kind

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Speaker 3: of a work in progress. At some point, I wasn't

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Speaker 3: even considering like doing something like a book perhaps or that,

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Speaker 3: but nobody wasn't in a particular aspect. And it's about

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Speaker 3: psychology cults ooo.

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Speaker 4: More, what do you mean?

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Speaker 3: Because there are several figures within the field of psychology

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Speaker 3: that have achieved the status of almost cult leaders, and

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Speaker 3: their followers are acting as people in a cult would act,

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Speaker 3: and they accept like every word from that person as

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Speaker 3: gospel truths.

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Speaker 2: Oh are you willing to say who you're referring to?

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Speaker 3: I mean? And the link tree is out there right.

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Speaker 3: In fact, just today I posted something about Freud on

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Speaker 3: Instagram and people dependent Freud, and one of the people

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Speaker 3: today commented something about trauma and something about the seminal

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Speaker 3: work of Basil Wonderculk that came out ten years ago. Well,

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Speaker 3: Basil wonder Cock is literally a cult leader. And I'm

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Speaker 3: not afraid to say that because I am not the

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Speaker 3: first person to say this. Have been people who have

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Speaker 3: gone to journalists that have gone to retreats that vander

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Speaker 3: Cool runs and absorbed what happens there. There have been

425
00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:11,800
Speaker 3: people who interacted with as followers. There have been professionals

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00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:15,440
Speaker 3: that have come out that book body keeps the score

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Speaker 3: is just immensely problematic.

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Speaker 2: Just want to reiterate this disclaimer here. There are therapies

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Speaker 2: explored and the body keeps the score that have been

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Speaker 2: very helpful for many people, including myself. So I want

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Speaker 2: to be sure not to throw the baby out with

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Speaker 2: the bathwater.

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Speaker 3: Here.

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Speaker 2: There's something you learned about in the book that's been

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Speaker 2: helpful for you in a time of need. That's important

436
00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:34,320
Speaker 2: keep what works for you.

437
00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:39,520
Speaker 3: It builds on polyvagal theory by Stephen Porges, which is

438
00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:44,600
Speaker 3: not science zoda science at the best, and it treats

439
00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:45,959
Speaker 3: it as accepted science.

440
00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:48,399
Speaker 2: Polyvagel theory is a theory about the role of the

441
00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:51,800
Speaker 2: vagus nerve and emotion regulation and fear response. When TikTok

442
00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:55,000
Speaker 2: therapists talk about vagel tone or the sympathetic and parasympathetic

443
00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:57,440
Speaker 2: nervous systems and how they relate to anxiety and trauma,

444
00:24:57,480 --> 00:24:59,760
Speaker 2: this is what they're talking about. The basic idea is

445
00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:02,600
Speaker 2: how we perceive threat and then have a physiological response

446
00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:05,479
Speaker 2: are fine and not new. But the science underlying the

447
00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:08,560
Speaker 2: theory's premise, which honestly is just kind of too complicated

448
00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:12,040
Speaker 2: to explain. Here is the part that has extremely questionable evidence.

449
00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:17,000
Speaker 3: It creates this affairitative air, because this is somebody who

450
00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:20,360
Speaker 3: is a professional, somebody who is a trusted person who

451
00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:23,160
Speaker 3: worked in a field of that. And the book came

452
00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:25,919
Speaker 3: out at the time where trauma was sort of having

453
00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:29,760
Speaker 3: a resurgence in the popular consciousness. It was high, and

454
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:33,399
Speaker 3: especially again as COVID happened, and frankly, as we were

455
00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:38,720
Speaker 3: all experiencing collective traumatic experiences, this just started surgeon in

456
00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:43,040
Speaker 3: popularity and people started seeking out more information and more

457
00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:45,800
Speaker 3: advice and all that. And I had to force myself

458
00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:48,560
Speaker 3: to read the book because even the first chapter is

459
00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:53,399
Speaker 3: so intensely problematic for professional to write that I just

460
00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:56,240
Speaker 3: couldn't believe what I was reading, where he's talking about

461
00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:59,640
Speaker 3: somebody who essentially committed war crimes.

462
00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:02,840
Speaker 1: You know, I've always found something interesting about that book

463
00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:04,679
Speaker 1: because I've never enjoyed it.

464
00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:09,840
Speaker 4: And it's he speaks in such a triggering way that.

465
00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:12,680
Speaker 1: Yes, I'm always like, this is so strange because you're

466
00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:14,760
Speaker 1: talking to me about trauma, but you're like, she was

467
00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:17,119
Speaker 1: in a car accident that was so vile all of

468
00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:20,800
Speaker 1: her like head fell off, And I'm like, oh, I'm

469
00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:24,320
Speaker 1: reading this because I'm anxious, Like why are you writing

470
00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:24,760
Speaker 1: kind of.

471
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:27,320
Speaker 2: Like porn, like hurt porn, trauma porn.

472
00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:30,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that always intrigued me.

473
00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:32,080
Speaker 2: I did not remember that about it.

474
00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:34,800
Speaker 3: And there are all kinds of problematic things that have

475
00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:39,280
Speaker 3: been uncovered about him at the academic institution where he was,

476
00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:42,600
Speaker 3: and they've tied broken, broken tice with him. But he's

477
00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:45,400
Speaker 3: like bulletproof and he this.

478
00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:47,960
Speaker 2: I thought, that's who you were gonna bring up, because

479
00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:51,760
Speaker 2: you know, I read that book and I didn't know

480
00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:54,080
Speaker 2: any of this context, and I was like, yes, he

481
00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:56,520
Speaker 2: let's heal our trauma. This is great. We talk about

482
00:26:56,520 --> 00:26:59,760
Speaker 2: trauma all the time. And now it's like starting to

483
00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:02,280
Speaker 2: people are starting to kind of say his name more

484
00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:05,160
Speaker 2: as someone who is not this like god of trauma

485
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:10,160
Speaker 2: who knows all things and generally speaking, like I mean,

486
00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:12,359
Speaker 2: I imagine it would take some time to kind of debunk

487
00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:14,639
Speaker 2: everything that's in the book. But what broad strokes is

488
00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:20,520
Speaker 2: it just like mostly research that isn't validated, Like, yeah.

489
00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:23,280
Speaker 3: There is a book called Remember in Trauma by Richard

490
00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:27,280
Speaker 3: McNally that actually goes in a lot of under claims

491
00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:30,960
Speaker 3: and addresses them and a lot of his claims about

492
00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:33,359
Speaker 3: what we remember and what we forget. That's kind of

493
00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:35,560
Speaker 3: at the heart of people going around telling each other

494
00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:37,920
Speaker 3: if you don't remember something about your childhood, that means

495
00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:41,680
Speaker 3: it was traumatic, which absolutely isn't true for most people.

496
00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:47,000
Speaker 3: That's not how trauma works. We typically remember the actual traumas.

497
00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:50,639
Speaker 3: That's why people with PTSD get flashbacks and nightmares. We

498
00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:58,200
Speaker 3: forget things around the trauma, like surrounding like how Christina Laze.

499
00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:01,560
Speaker 3: They want to say, place forward the woman that accused

500
00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:06,800
Speaker 3: Judge Cavanaugh, Oh Blasi, Yes, thank you. She was talking

501
00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:10,199
Speaker 3: about her experience when she was talking about it in

502
00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:14,400
Speaker 3: the hearing, and she remembered the actual assault. She did

503
00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:18,240
Speaker 3: not remember how she got home. That is very typical

504
00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:22,199
Speaker 3: in what we see as a pattern in research and trauma,

505
00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:26,520
Speaker 3: like that's what happens to people that surrounding things kind

506
00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:29,840
Speaker 3: of become vague and lost because you are stuck in

507
00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:34,560
Speaker 3: that moment and lips out things around it, you know.

508
00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:38,840
Speaker 3: And so his book just doesn't acknowledge any of the

509
00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:42,640
Speaker 3: research that talks about what trauma experience is really like

510
00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:45,440
Speaker 3: and not trauma memories I really like, And it relies

511
00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:49,560
Speaker 3: on this again polyvagal theory, which is a cult in itself.

512
00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:53,400
Speaker 3: Stephen Porge's and polyvagal theory that is mentioned in there.

513
00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:58,440
Speaker 3: There is no science supporting polyvagal theory that is not

514
00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:04,240
Speaker 3: made by proponents of the polyvagal theory. It's about this

515
00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:08,320
Speaker 3: separate nervous system, the vagus nerve that you see a

516
00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:10,120
Speaker 3: lot of people are talking about the role of vagus

517
00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:14,480
Speaker 3: nerv and how that role that it plays in trauma.

518
00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:18,840
Speaker 3: And it's based on research in lizards that is not

519
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:24,840
Speaker 3: replicated by anybody else. But also we're not lizards, and

520
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:28,640
Speaker 3: it's just once people kind of learn it, and you

521
00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:32,680
Speaker 3: see a lot of this embraced by a lot of therapists, yes,

522
00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:36,200
Speaker 3: who are now calling themselves trauma informed therapists. And trauma

523
00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:40,920
Speaker 3: informed usually means accepting what Wonder coll says as gospel,

524
00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:44,640
Speaker 3: as accepting what Steven Forger says as gospel and treating

525
00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:49,440
Speaker 3: it as real. Another member of this cult club for me,

526
00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:52,480
Speaker 3: is actually a nuts people. People are probably going to

527
00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:56,160
Speaker 3: send you angry messages for this one because he's very beloved.

528
00:29:56,960 --> 00:29:58,880
Speaker 3: You want to guess what who whom I am about

529
00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:03,560
Speaker 3: to name also or trauma related very beloved, who very nice,

530
00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:04,640
Speaker 3: very gentle, cool?

531
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:06,520
Speaker 4: Yeah related?

532
00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:06,800
Speaker 1: Oh?

533
00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:08,760
Speaker 2: Is it is it?

534
00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:09,040
Speaker 4: Is it?

535
00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:11,960
Speaker 2: What's his name? Who he's got all trademark, next the

536
00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:15,240
Speaker 2: name of the therapy. Tell tell me, not tell you

537
00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:17,640
Speaker 2: if it is. Oh no, that was not how I

538
00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:20,520
Speaker 2: was thinking of. For anyone who isn't familiar with Gabor Matte,

539
00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:22,920
Speaker 2: he is a famous psychologist best known for his theories

540
00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:26,120
Speaker 2: on trauma, addiction, and childhood development. Okay, go on.

541
00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:31,600
Speaker 3: He argues that the reason that people get what become

542
00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:36,920
Speaker 3: addicts alcohol addicts specifically is childhood trauma. He also argues

543
00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:41,400
Speaker 3: that ADHD is a product of childhood trauma. Both of

544
00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:46,520
Speaker 3: these claims are contrary to scientific evidence on each condition,

545
00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:51,560
Speaker 3: and especially with respect to alcohol addiction, it is particularly

546
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:55,880
Speaker 3: harmful in terms of treatment implications and understand how addiction

547
00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:58,120
Speaker 3: develops and what to do about it. And there are

548
00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:00,960
Speaker 3: a lot of people who are professionals working in the

549
00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:03,640
Speaker 3: field of addiction and professionals working in the field of

550
00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:08,040
Speaker 3: I DHDY who are speaking about this and have objections.

551
00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:12,320
Speaker 3: But because he is so gentle and so kind and

552
00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:17,080
Speaker 3: did such a very nice televised session with Prince Harry

553
00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:22,400
Speaker 3: and was so understanding and speak such kind things that

554
00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:26,840
Speaker 3: people are really embracing it. It's just like being very charismatic,

555
00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:31,640
Speaker 3: being an authority in your field. Having every year of

556
00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:35,080
Speaker 3: scientific truths around it, even when it's not actually a

557
00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:39,200
Speaker 3: scientific truth, is what keeps making this happen, right, And

558
00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:43,640
Speaker 3: you can't like criticize people go again. People go to

559
00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:47,680
Speaker 3: like workshops or lectures and ask questions and they pushed

560
00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:51,640
Speaker 3: away and rejected, and that that atmosphere is very much

561
00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:54,560
Speaker 3: I am listening to like a cult guru and not

562
00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:57,680
Speaker 3: some a scientist and should understand things.

563
00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:00,440
Speaker 2: I mean, we've talked a lot on this podcast about

564
00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:03,479
Speaker 2: how if anyone is charismatic, you probably shouldn't listen to

565
00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:08,000
Speaker 2: them because you're probably being tricked, which of course is

566
00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:08,719
Speaker 2: we're joking.

567
00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:11,200
Speaker 3: But it's a simple thing that I make people med

568
00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:11,760
Speaker 3: alls the time.

569
00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:16,560
Speaker 2: Yes, I trust you more because of it, but it

570
00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:19,840
Speaker 2: starts to feel overwhelming because you know, well you're talking

571
00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:22,760
Speaker 2: about polyvagel theory. Like going back to you know, when

572
00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:24,800
Speaker 2: I was having sort of a mental health crisis and

573
00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:27,920
Speaker 2: like I got diagnosed with OCD, and but before I

574
00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:30,840
Speaker 2: received that diagnosis, I was just trying to figure out

575
00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:33,120
Speaker 2: what was going on. And I was also having bladder problems,

576
00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:35,000
Speaker 2: and I was like the Internet was telling me it

577
00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:39,840
Speaker 2: was my vaguest nerve or whatever, and it looks like

578
00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:42,200
Speaker 2: there's research about it, Like if you look, there's like

579
00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:44,640
Speaker 2: there are like a few little studies here and there,

580
00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:46,680
Speaker 2: and people are signing them and it's like, oh, this

581
00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:50,120
Speaker 2: is maybe this will pull me out of the darkness.

582
00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:52,240
Speaker 2: Maybe well, this will give me the answers that I

583
00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:53,960
Speaker 2: need to get the help that I need. And it's

584
00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:58,360
Speaker 2: so frustrating when those answers are not real. And by

585
00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:00,040
Speaker 2: the way, none of that stuff helped me, because the

586
00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:02,040
Speaker 2: only thing that helped me with exposure and response prevention

587
00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:03,640
Speaker 2: therapy because nothing else was.

588
00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:09,040
Speaker 3: The appropriation dated, very long established treatment for CD. And

589
00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:11,520
Speaker 3: I'm glad that you found somebody who did it, because

590
00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:15,000
Speaker 3: there are fewer and fewer people who are actually training

591
00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:17,040
Speaker 3: in that and who are qualified to do that or

592
00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:18,360
Speaker 3: systematically sensitization.

593
00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:21,280
Speaker 2: I mean, I I am like, a I won't shut

594
00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:23,520
Speaker 2: up about it because like you know, there are so

595
00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:25,479
Speaker 2: many places online that will tell me that it's oh,

596
00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:27,360
Speaker 2: it's like you know, it's bottom up. You know, you

597
00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:28,680
Speaker 2: just have to put a piece of ice on your

598
00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:30,280
Speaker 2: neck and that'll solve it. And I'm like, but my

599
00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:33,480
Speaker 2: thoughts won't stop. The ice isn't stopping the thoughts why

600
00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:34,280
Speaker 2: do I stop the.

601
00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:39,440
Speaker 3: Thoughts response right now? Because it basically directed somewhere else, right,

602
00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:41,160
Speaker 3: But it's not going to stop it from coming back.

603
00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:45,400
Speaker 3: And that's right, right right, And yeah, it's it's this.

604
00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:50,320
Speaker 3: They're not all trauma related, because there is also doctor Ahman.

605
00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:52,240
Speaker 3: I think maybe that's where you were going. I don't know,

606
00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:53,320
Speaker 3: don't get me started.

607
00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:58,440
Speaker 2: I literally, I literally was just I was just bragging

608
00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:01,120
Speaker 2: to Steven Meghan that I met up with the neuroscientist

609
00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:03,400
Speaker 2: yesterday because I have a brother with a brain injury,

610
00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:05,520
Speaker 2: and so I've been wanting to kind of just get

611
00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:08,720
Speaker 2: more involved in advocacy in the community. But we were

612
00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:11,279
Speaker 2: ranting about doctor Amen for quite some time. And again,

613
00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:14,279
Speaker 2: this is going to piss people off, because people love him, they.

614
00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:19,920
Speaker 4: Love anybody off. I'm scared what's wrong with doctor Ammen.

615
00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:25,680
Speaker 3: Really, he's basically doing modern phrenology.

616
00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:29,040
Speaker 2: Phrenology was an early pseudoscience theory from the eighteen hundreds

617
00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:30,839
Speaker 2: about how the shape of bumps on your skull were

618
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:34,600
Speaker 2: somehow an indicator of your personality, intelligence, or other mental traits.

619
00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:38,120
Speaker 2: It is now known to be wildly unscientific. So the

620
00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:40,320
Speaker 2: way he explained it to me was because he actually

621
00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:44,239
Speaker 2: operated the same type of scan or scan machine. I

622
00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:45,840
Speaker 2: don't know what the type of machine is called that

623
00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:51,719
Speaker 2: doctor Aman uses spec scan. Yeah, And basically you can

624
00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:55,160
Speaker 2: turn the dial up or down to create basically any

625
00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:58,280
Speaker 2: image that you want, so you can show a person

626
00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:00,320
Speaker 2: there's a hole in their brain, and then from the

627
00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:02,760
Speaker 2: exact same scan on the exact same day, it looks

628
00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:06,160
Speaker 2: magically perfect. So basically you can just he's just turning

629
00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:08,239
Speaker 2: the dial to suit whatever he wants and then having

630
00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:11,040
Speaker 2: its people buy his wife's products to fix their problems.

631
00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:15,040
Speaker 3: Yes, so basically, yes, this is like like this was

632
00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:18,000
Speaker 3: where phrenology was. We can decide where you have a

633
00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:20,080
Speaker 3: bump and when you have an indentation and tell you

634
00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:22,880
Speaker 3: and then that changes your life because somebody decided he

635
00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:26,720
Speaker 3: was suitable and not suitable. These scans are basically about

636
00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:29,439
Speaker 3: as good as measuring bumps on your skull. And that's

637
00:35:29,719 --> 00:35:34,080
Speaker 3: again you have actual psychiatrists, actual neuroscientists coming out and

638
00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:37,600
Speaker 3: saying that's literally modern day phrenology. That is a scam,

639
00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:41,160
Speaker 3: that is not real. And again there is no research

640
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:46,920
Speaker 3: coming out of anywhere else except people affiliated with Aman

641
00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:51,680
Speaker 3: and his clinic that are claiming this and the journals

642
00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:55,759
Speaker 3: was publishing are very limited journals that are basically just

643
00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:58,719
Speaker 3: publishing that kind of stuff, but it gets out or

644
00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:01,240
Speaker 3: he is publishing books and he wants to sell books,

645
00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:04,920
Speaker 3: and he makes, you know, goals on TV shows and

646
00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:08,479
Speaker 3: explain things to people, and again sounds like a great

647
00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:11,360
Speaker 3: authority because he is a true professional. He has a degree.

648
00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:12,680
Speaker 3: Degree apparently is.

649
00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:15,719
Speaker 2: Not enough and people are paying thousands of dollars to

650
00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:18,839
Speaker 2: get these cans and be tolder, being healed, and it's

651
00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:19,360
Speaker 2: a huge.

652
00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:21,960
Speaker 3: And then you have celebrities going to these clinics and

653
00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:25,600
Speaker 3: then getting on TV shows with him. Right, I have

654
00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:29,320
Speaker 3: a graduate in opera for platforming a lot of these people. Honestly,

655
00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:38,040
Speaker 3: who do you like? Nobody in that kind of is Unfortunately, Yeah,

656
00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:40,960
Speaker 3: I do have I follow and I have maintained a

657
00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:45,320
Speaker 3: list of people on social media that are professionals that

658
00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:48,319
Speaker 3: I trust and I recommend them to people. But those

659
00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:51,480
Speaker 3: are not like these big well, some of them are

660
00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:55,440
Speaker 3: getting fairly popular and becoming big names online and writing

661
00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:58,960
Speaker 3: books and so on, But a lot of people who

662
00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:02,800
Speaker 3: ended up on like you know, TV shows, and it

663
00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:05,960
Speaker 3: becomes I don't know if it are people or if

664
00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:06,880
Speaker 3: they were always like that.

665
00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:10,439
Speaker 2: And that's that's the thing that's that's hard to watch

666
00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:12,879
Speaker 2: as someone who really loves science and is like really

667
00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:17,920
Speaker 2: trying to get to objective, evidence based reality at all times.

668
00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:20,440
Speaker 2: And obviously we all make missteps along the way and

669
00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:26,200
Speaker 2: we get wrong information sometimes, but like it feels like

670
00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:28,880
Speaker 2: the people who are the best at communicating about ideas

671
00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:34,840
Speaker 2: are communicating easy answers and not the not evidence based ideas.

672
00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:37,440
Speaker 2: And it starts to feel like, well, how can you

673
00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:39,759
Speaker 2: trust anything? Like nothing? You know what I mean? Like, so,

674
00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:41,880
Speaker 2: what do you say to someone who's losing their trust

675
00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:43,799
Speaker 2: in the field of psychology?

676
00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:48,880
Speaker 3: The reality is that we don't actually have all the answers.

677
00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:53,560
Speaker 3: Psychology is a very very young science field. Like we

678
00:37:53,680 --> 00:37:58,040
Speaker 3: literally started in eighteen seventy nine in a storage drone

679
00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:01,000
Speaker 3: that somebody realized was actually a laboratory and put a

680
00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:02,880
Speaker 3: sign on the door. And what they were doing in

681
00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:05,960
Speaker 3: that storage room was introspection, which is staring at a

682
00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:09,520
Speaker 3: red apple and discussing exactly how red that red apple was.

683
00:38:09,719 --> 00:38:13,880
Speaker 3: That literally is the beginning of scientific psychology. This was

684
00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:16,120
Speaker 3: people often say Freud was a father of psychology, nor

685
00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:20,200
Speaker 3: Freud was still in college. It did not arrive yet

686
00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:23,200
Speaker 3: but then we also have Freud and the places where

687
00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:27,120
Speaker 3: he arrived was completely abandoned in science, but calling himself

688
00:38:27,160 --> 00:38:29,640
Speaker 3: a scientist, and maybe that was a trend. Maybe that's

689
00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:33,080
Speaker 3: what started because we have a lot of that happening

690
00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:36,200
Speaker 3: where we are technically one field.

691
00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:36,680
Speaker 1: Right.

692
00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:41,000
Speaker 3: Psychology is a science of human behavior and mental processes.

693
00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:44,439
Speaker 3: It is not a science of how things go wrong

694
00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:47,440
Speaker 3: and how to fix. Understanding how things go wrong and

695
00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:51,320
Speaker 3: how to fix them is a byproduct of the overall

696
00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:56,080
Speaker 3: science of understanding how people work. Right. But because of

697
00:38:56,400 --> 00:39:00,520
Speaker 3: how psychology developed as kind of a dual track Suplin

698
00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:03,359
Speaker 3: from the very beginning, where you had one track had

699
00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:07,000
Speaker 3: laboratories and one track had patients and clients, and they

700
00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:10,840
Speaker 3: were not always talking to each other, but it was

701
00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:15,600
Speaker 3: all called psychology. We now have this understanding in the

702
00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:19,239
Speaker 3: public that psychology is for helping people with their problems, right,

703
00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:21,880
Speaker 3: But that's really not the main thing. Like when I

704
00:39:21,960 --> 00:39:26,080
Speaker 3: teach general psychology, Literally our semester has got right now,

705
00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:29,320
Speaker 3: like three more weeks left, last week's finals and this

706
00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:31,799
Speaker 3: week and the next week next week is the only

707
00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:34,080
Speaker 3: week where I'm going to talk about what goes wrong

708
00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:38,640
Speaker 3: and how to fix, Like specifically when psychopathology treatment those things,

709
00:39:38,719 --> 00:39:42,560
Speaker 3: because I spend most of my time talking about the

710
00:39:42,719 --> 00:39:46,359
Speaker 3: usual rather than the unusual or abnormal, because how we're

711
00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:49,640
Speaker 3: supposed to understand what is unusual or abnormal when we

712
00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:52,560
Speaker 3: don't understand how people work. That's kind of how we

713
00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:55,400
Speaker 3: get all these people going, oh, if you sleep like this,

714
00:39:55,719 --> 00:39:59,120
Speaker 3: that means you have twenty five problems, and they keep

715
00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:01,719
Speaker 3: adding to the lead, like what kinds of issues cause

716
00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:04,440
Speaker 3: you to sleep like that, which really it's actually a

717
00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:05,840
Speaker 3: normal human sleeping position.

718
00:40:06,120 --> 00:40:08,120
Speaker 2: One thing that I kind of tell myself when I'm

719
00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:10,600
Speaker 2: starting to go down this rabbit hole is that these

720
00:40:10,640 --> 00:40:13,480
Speaker 2: are early sciences. There's still so much that we do

721
00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:16,200
Speaker 2: not know about the brain and about you and behavior,

722
00:40:16,640 --> 00:40:19,960
Speaker 2: and it's all in process of being studied and being researched,

723
00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:22,080
Speaker 2: and some people are putting forth theories that they think

724
00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:24,839
Speaker 2: are going to work, and you know, science, hopefully, if

725
00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:27,560
Speaker 2: done correctly, will self correct, and that's kind of why

726
00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:30,480
Speaker 2: we're having this conversation. I mean, being in the process

727
00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:33,200
Speaker 2: of correction will lead to some errors, but that doesn't

728
00:40:33,239 --> 00:40:35,360
Speaker 2: mean that the field itself is not trustworthy. It just

729
00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:39,120
Speaker 2: means that we need to keep going and keep you know, Learning.

730
00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:43,360
Speaker 5: Hello, I'm Robbia Chaudhry. I invite you to join me

731
00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:46,880
Speaker 5: every Tuesday for new episodes of Nighty Night, bedtime stories

732
00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:50,200
Speaker 5: to keep you awake now on podcast one. This new

733
00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:53,160
Speaker 5: incarnation of ninety Night is an anthology of stories that

734
00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:57,040
Speaker 5: bring to life classic horror stories, some you're definitely familiar

735
00:40:57,120 --> 00:40:59,439
Speaker 5: with and others that you'll be hearing for the first time.

736
00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:02,279
Speaker 5: Me as I tuck you into bed with stories that

737
00:41:02,320 --> 00:41:05,560
Speaker 5: will leave you sleepless all night long. Get new episodes

738
00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:09,279
Speaker 5: of Nighty Night every Tuesday wherever you get your podcasts.

739
00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:17,640
Speaker 2: I want to switch gears in one second. But but

740
00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:20,880
Speaker 2: I know you'll disagree with me on this, but I'm excited.

741
00:41:22,040 --> 00:41:24,480
Speaker 2: But it starts to feel on TikTok. It starts to

742
00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:28,000
Speaker 2: feel like astrology, where it's like cut read into astrology.

743
00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:31,000
Speaker 2: Oh you don't, okay, cool? Well, sorry to our listeners

744
00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:32,080
Speaker 2: who do like astrology.

745
00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:33,960
Speaker 4: I mean, I don't mind it, but I don't. But

746
00:41:34,040 --> 00:41:35,480
Speaker 4: it's like great science.

747
00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:39,040
Speaker 2: Here's an identity read into it whatever you want. Everyone's

748
00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:41,879
Speaker 2: going to list different symptoms and you can decide which

749
00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:43,719
Speaker 2: one you are. You know, like, it starts to feel

750
00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:44,840
Speaker 2: like it's just sort of like A.

751
00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:46,120
Speaker 3: It's called Barnum effect.

752
00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:46,640
Speaker 4: What is it?

753
00:41:46,840 --> 00:41:47,320
Speaker 2: Explain that?

754
00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:53,600
Speaker 3: So it's called or for effect is for Pitt you

755
00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:55,879
Speaker 3: know the impresario's the circus guy.

756
00:41:56,080 --> 00:41:59,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, I was like the circus man, okay, And the four.

757
00:41:59,239 --> 00:42:01,799
Speaker 3: Is for the resort who found the effect. But then

758
00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:05,120
Speaker 3: it got named for Barnum, so A P. T. Barnum

759
00:42:05,280 --> 00:42:07,040
Speaker 3: used to say that there has to be a little

760
00:42:07,120 --> 00:42:08,120
Speaker 3: something for everyone.

761
00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:08,600
Speaker 1: Mmm.

762
00:42:09,239 --> 00:42:12,040
Speaker 3: I also supposed saying that there is a full born

763
00:42:12,120 --> 00:42:16,120
Speaker 3: every minute. But basically and four did this research and

764
00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:19,080
Speaker 3: it was research in astrology specifically, and I used to

765
00:42:19,120 --> 00:42:22,000
Speaker 3: replicate this in a classroom when I had more time

766
00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:25,320
Speaker 3: on MU study personality, especially if you do like a

767
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:29,880
Speaker 3: personality description that follows kind of patterns of general like

768
00:42:30,040 --> 00:42:33,480
Speaker 3: the way that the zodiac personality descriptions are written, and

769
00:42:33,680 --> 00:42:36,960
Speaker 3: you'll give one to each individual student and you ask

770
00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:39,000
Speaker 3: them to read it, and you ask if that feits,

771
00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:41,480
Speaker 3: and most of them will say yes, that feits, and

772
00:42:41,640 --> 00:42:43,959
Speaker 3: then you have looked at it and go, oh, sorry,

773
00:42:44,080 --> 00:42:47,160
Speaker 3: I got I'm off. But like one name, so what

774
00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:51,120
Speaker 3: you all trade with like this next person, they're literally

775
00:42:51,239 --> 00:42:53,680
Speaker 3: the same, like you can even do different ones, but

776
00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:56,160
Speaker 3: nobody has that kind of time, but they're all the

777
00:42:56,239 --> 00:42:58,560
Speaker 3: same and they will still fit because there is a

778
00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:02,480
Speaker 3: little sumthing for everybody. These are what we call Barnum statements.

779
00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:05,759
Speaker 3: The way that they work is there is always like

780
00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:10,160
Speaker 3: a bad you know, you are concerned with the details,

781
00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:12,759
Speaker 3: but a lot of the times you're looking at the

782
00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:13,640
Speaker 3: big picture.

783
00:43:13,560 --> 00:43:15,080
Speaker 4: Right, little something for everyone.

784
00:43:15,560 --> 00:43:20,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, how you say it? And that's a lot of astrology.

785
00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:23,880
Speaker 3: That also is a lot of these put your finger

786
00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:27,680
Speaker 3: down online like a lot of them work because of

787
00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:30,360
Speaker 3: Barnum effect because there is a little something for you

788
00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:32,960
Speaker 3: and how they're say in it. But well, sometimes I'm

789
00:43:33,080 --> 00:43:35,680
Speaker 3: like this, and sometimes I'm like that, and they're all

790
00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:38,759
Speaker 3: like reague enough that they work for a lot of people, right,

791
00:43:39,320 --> 00:43:42,520
Speaker 3: And then people are just accepting these things and they

792
00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:45,520
Speaker 3: believe in these things, and once they do, it's hard

793
00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:48,680
Speaker 3: to just wade them otherwise. But again, I have literally

794
00:43:48,760 --> 00:43:53,600
Speaker 3: seen professionals feed into that and go with that. Usually

795
00:43:54,280 --> 00:43:58,680
Speaker 3: that would be clinical professionals because we have to like

796
00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:01,880
Speaker 3: face this reality of we have a problem within the field.

797
00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:05,600
Speaker 3: So we're talking about like that trust In psychology, a

798
00:44:05,800 --> 00:44:09,080
Speaker 3: lot of practitioners think of what they do more like

799
00:44:09,160 --> 00:44:13,400
Speaker 3: an art, even though technically according to the EPA ethical guidelines,

800
00:44:13,440 --> 00:44:17,120
Speaker 3: they're supposed to follow the science. They do not always

801
00:44:17,280 --> 00:44:20,200
Speaker 3: care to know what the science is, and they say, well,

802
00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:22,520
Speaker 3: I don't care what the science says. I'm here with

803
00:44:22,719 --> 00:44:25,360
Speaker 3: my patient, Oris, my client, and I need to do

804
00:44:25,560 --> 00:44:28,200
Speaker 3: what works for them, except, of course we've not been

805
00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:30,759
Speaker 3: systematic about it, so we don't know what works for

806
00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:34,760
Speaker 3: them because we haven't done the right things of finding

807
00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:37,640
Speaker 3: out properly what works and doesn't work.

808
00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:41,480
Speaker 2: Well. I do want to make one quick point about that, though,

809
00:44:41,520 --> 00:44:43,560
Speaker 2: which is and correct me if I'm wrong. But from

810
00:44:43,600 --> 00:44:48,320
Speaker 2: my understanding, the modality itself in a therapeutic relationship is

811
00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:52,080
Speaker 2: not as important as trust within the therapeutic relationship. So

812
00:44:52,560 --> 00:44:56,960
Speaker 2: correct Ultimately, like, does it matter that much if it

813
00:44:57,200 --> 00:44:59,400
Speaker 2: is helping a person who feels bad to feel bad?

814
00:44:59,440 --> 00:45:02,120
Speaker 3: But it doesn't because it depends what we're helping them with.

815
00:45:02,520 --> 00:45:06,480
Speaker 3: You cannot fix OCD with pretty much innocent but exposure

816
00:45:06,480 --> 00:45:09,600
Speaker 3: and response prevention. You can make a person feel better

817
00:45:09,640 --> 00:45:13,400
Speaker 3: about themselves, you can give them coping skills, but you

818
00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:18,080
Speaker 3: cannot get them to stop reacting all the time. So

819
00:45:18,680 --> 00:45:20,880
Speaker 3: it's both true and not true. So with respect to

820
00:45:20,880 --> 00:45:24,120
Speaker 3: a lot of things like generalized anxiety for example, or

821
00:45:24,360 --> 00:45:29,680
Speaker 3: with respect to depression, self esteem issues, imposter syndrome, like

822
00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:32,920
Speaker 3: family concerns, lots of concerns. That is going to be

823
00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:38,640
Speaker 3: absolutely true, but we also have specific techniques that exist

824
00:45:38,760 --> 00:45:43,040
Speaker 3: for specific issues. And in that sense, those issues are

825
00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:46,480
Speaker 3: not going to get better. They're not going to go away.

826
00:45:46,760 --> 00:45:48,880
Speaker 3: You may get the person to feel that they have

827
00:45:49,080 --> 00:45:51,239
Speaker 3: loss of a problem about it, but.

828
00:45:51,520 --> 00:45:53,839
Speaker 4: It's like the behavior will be the same.

829
00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:57,120
Speaker 3: If you spouse snores, right, we could treat them snoring,

830
00:45:57,280 --> 00:46:01,799
Speaker 3: or we could get earplugs. Either way, it won't bother

831
00:46:01,920 --> 00:46:02,520
Speaker 3: you that there's no.

832
00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:05,719
Speaker 2: Right, it's like either a bandit or or the root

833
00:46:05,760 --> 00:46:06,280
Speaker 2: of the problem.

834
00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:06,560
Speaker 1: Right.

835
00:46:06,880 --> 00:46:09,080
Speaker 3: So, and a lot of times, of course we have

836
00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:13,959
Speaker 3: also people you know, go into the psychiatric crowd, which

837
00:46:14,200 --> 00:46:18,200
Speaker 3: is mostly medication, and medication treats the symptoms, it does

838
00:46:18,280 --> 00:46:21,360
Speaker 3: not treat the problem. We don't have psychiatric medication that

839
00:46:21,560 --> 00:46:26,120
Speaker 3: treats the underlying issue. We haven't gotten that far yet, right.

840
00:46:26,600 --> 00:46:28,440
Speaker 2: For AI to handle it all?

841
00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:29,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, So, yes, the.

842
00:46:30,040 --> 00:46:33,759
Speaker 3: Person, the connection with the persons that are poor is

843
00:46:33,880 --> 00:46:37,840
Speaker 3: fundamentally important. The common factors and therapy are fundamentally important.

844
00:46:37,880 --> 00:46:41,320
Speaker 3: And that way we can also say psychanalysis works because

845
00:46:41,800 --> 00:46:44,960
Speaker 3: if somebody wants to work with the psychanalyst, it will

846
00:46:45,000 --> 00:46:47,040
Speaker 3: work for them. It won't work for me because I'll

847
00:46:47,120 --> 00:46:49,719
Speaker 3: just be laughing at them the whole time because of

848
00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:52,400
Speaker 3: what I think of those theories. Right, So that's not

849
00:46:52,520 --> 00:46:54,719
Speaker 3: going to be for me. It might be for somebody else,

850
00:46:55,080 --> 00:46:58,360
Speaker 3: but it won't be for every problem. Right. It just

851
00:46:58,520 --> 00:47:01,280
Speaker 3: depends on what we're trying to address with a person,

852
00:47:01,760 --> 00:47:04,600
Speaker 3: and that's kind of important. And when it comes to

853
00:47:04,880 --> 00:47:08,320
Speaker 3: what's causing it and talking about prevention and how to

854
00:47:08,480 --> 00:47:12,520
Speaker 3: avoid like creating problems for other people, that's where sometimes

855
00:47:12,600 --> 00:47:16,239
Speaker 3: we actually create problems, like by telling somebody that they

856
00:47:16,280 --> 00:47:20,080
Speaker 3: are most likely traumatized when they don't feel themselves to

857
00:47:20,160 --> 00:47:23,439
Speaker 3: have been traumatized, or that the trauma is childhood where

858
00:47:23,560 --> 00:47:26,120
Speaker 3: they may have had a problem as an adult that

859
00:47:26,239 --> 00:47:29,000
Speaker 3: they even know about, but we're going to insist that

860
00:47:29,080 --> 00:47:32,200
Speaker 3: it was bad parenting that caused it. Then we may

861
00:47:32,239 --> 00:47:34,320
Speaker 3: be creating more problems than we are solving.

862
00:47:34,480 --> 00:47:37,120
Speaker 1: An interesting fact about being human is how attached we

863
00:47:37,160 --> 00:47:41,799
Speaker 1: get to narratives, and it's just our entire identity most

864
00:47:41,840 --> 00:47:44,960
Speaker 1: of the time, and so it's either a dangerous or

865
00:47:45,040 --> 00:47:48,600
Speaker 1: helpful game depending on where we're getting the narratives from.

866
00:47:49,239 --> 00:47:51,960
Speaker 1: And we see it in costs too. It's a narrative.

867
00:47:52,040 --> 00:47:55,600
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, I mean my mom has done research on

868
00:47:57,200 --> 00:48:01,200
Speaker 2: the importance of your narrative of yourself in your in

869
00:48:01,360 --> 00:48:04,759
Speaker 2: processing your trauma and healing your whatever, whatever you've experienced.

870
00:48:05,040 --> 00:48:07,520
Speaker 2: The narrative is so important. I mean, you know, you're

871
00:48:07,600 --> 00:48:09,080
Speaker 2: the expert here, so you can tell me if.

872
00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:09,640
Speaker 4: That is correct.

873
00:48:10,360 --> 00:48:11,360
Speaker 3: So that is correct?

874
00:48:11,480 --> 00:48:14,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, so in yea. So it just seems like it

875
00:48:14,080 --> 00:48:17,720
Speaker 2: really it really depends, like if it's something that's debilitating

876
00:48:18,080 --> 00:48:22,040
Speaker 2: and it's something you cannot stop doing, you should probably

877
00:48:22,080 --> 00:48:25,640
Speaker 2: see a specialist, like if it's potentially OCD or obviously

878
00:48:25,760 --> 00:48:29,600
Speaker 2: something more severe like bipolar disorder or whatever. But for

879
00:48:29,880 --> 00:48:33,120
Speaker 2: for many of us, if it's just like we want

880
00:48:33,200 --> 00:48:36,080
Speaker 2: someone to talk to or feeling down whatever, like talk

881
00:48:36,120 --> 00:48:37,360
Speaker 2: therapy could be very beneficial.

882
00:48:37,640 --> 00:48:41,080
Speaker 3: Yes, then you'll want somebody who actually understands you and

883
00:48:41,200 --> 00:48:43,800
Speaker 3: that you feel that they understand you and can offer

884
00:48:43,880 --> 00:48:47,480
Speaker 3: your useful suggestions. Right, So if you don't trust the suggestions,

885
00:48:47,520 --> 00:48:50,919
Speaker 3: that's where I need to have a breakdown, you know, communication.

886
00:48:50,640 --> 00:48:52,560
Speaker 2: Which has happened to me totally.

887
00:48:52,640 --> 00:48:55,719
Speaker 1: I have one therapist who kept breaking into musicals during

888
00:48:55,760 --> 00:48:59,520
Speaker 1: our because she like wanted to be like a singer,

889
00:48:59,680 --> 00:49:02,479
Speaker 1: and I was like, oh, doctor, you're singing again.

890
00:49:02,560 --> 00:49:07,000
Speaker 3: Okay, that might not be for everybody, for somebody, but

891
00:49:07,160 --> 00:49:08,520
Speaker 3: most not necessarily for you.

892
00:49:09,400 --> 00:49:10,719
Speaker 2: My friends friend and would love it.

893
00:49:12,719 --> 00:49:16,759
Speaker 3: It depends, right, and it's somebody again. I was interacting

894
00:49:16,840 --> 00:49:20,880
Speaker 3: with somebody in the comment section who on an earlier

895
00:49:20,960 --> 00:49:25,440
Speaker 3: video of mine that basically pointed out that narcissistic abuse

896
00:49:25,600 --> 00:49:28,600
Speaker 3: is not an actual validated term. It's just popular to

897
00:49:28,800 --> 00:49:32,239
Speaker 3: say this, that abuse, this abuse. And this person says,

898
00:49:32,280 --> 00:49:36,440
Speaker 3: but my therapist said that I am suffering by this,

899
00:49:36,760 --> 00:49:39,200
Speaker 3: and I had to say, well, I am very sorry,

900
00:49:39,280 --> 00:49:43,759
Speaker 3: but your therapists shouldn't have diagnosed your parents. They could

901
00:49:43,800 --> 00:49:46,800
Speaker 3: have talked about, like, these things that you experienced seemed

902
00:49:46,880 --> 00:49:49,400
Speaker 3: like they were abusive, But to say that that was

903
00:49:49,480 --> 00:49:53,920
Speaker 3: specifically for that reason, that's not ethical. And this person

904
00:49:54,080 --> 00:49:57,279
Speaker 3: basically just got back and somebody else also said it

905
00:49:57,400 --> 00:49:58,719
Speaker 3: to them who is not me, and they were like,

906
00:49:59,000 --> 00:50:03,240
Speaker 3: I'm now realizing that this therapist actually diagnosed multiple people

907
00:50:03,320 --> 00:50:04,879
Speaker 3: in my life with different things.

908
00:50:05,640 --> 00:50:07,840
Speaker 4: What do you think about if you diagnose somebody to

909
00:50:07,880 --> 00:50:08,440
Speaker 4: your therapist?

910
00:50:08,600 --> 00:50:10,520
Speaker 1: Because I had an experience where I was like, he's

911
00:50:10,640 --> 00:50:13,320
Speaker 1: just really narcissistic, and then a few minutes later she's like,

912
00:50:13,560 --> 00:50:15,640
Speaker 1: he's a narcissist, so blah bla blah blah blah, and

913
00:50:15,680 --> 00:50:17,480
Speaker 1: I was like, I don't like that you just called

914
00:50:17,520 --> 00:50:19,200
Speaker 1: him a narcissist, because I'm.

915
00:50:19,160 --> 00:50:21,280
Speaker 4: Just quality.

916
00:50:22,560 --> 00:50:24,480
Speaker 3: We do have, Like you could you could say that

917
00:50:24,600 --> 00:50:28,480
Speaker 3: people have narcissistic traits because you could do like a

918
00:50:28,640 --> 00:50:33,279
Speaker 3: dark tread personality assessment and identify basically we're talking about selfishness,

919
00:50:33,800 --> 00:50:36,960
Speaker 3: right in this case, that doesn't mean the clinical narcissist.

920
00:50:38,040 --> 00:50:41,880
Speaker 3: So yes, I I the therapist sometimes do that because

921
00:50:41,920 --> 00:50:45,920
Speaker 3: it's leniant, and it's also the patterns they fall into

922
00:50:46,280 --> 00:50:49,960
Speaker 3: sometimes and they don't necessarily like even realize that they're

923
00:50:50,040 --> 00:50:54,279
Speaker 3: doing this. And this whole like trauma informed therapy. I'm

924
00:50:54,400 --> 00:50:58,560
Speaker 3: watching like the developments with some trepidation because people obviously

925
00:50:58,640 --> 00:51:01,760
Speaker 3: should be aware of this. Like if somebody had trauma

926
00:51:02,040 --> 00:51:05,279
Speaker 3: and you're trying to give them cognitive behavioral therapy, which

927
00:51:05,360 --> 00:51:08,840
Speaker 3: is all about or you're creating these catastrophizing narratives in

928
00:51:08,880 --> 00:51:11,720
Speaker 3: your life about bad things happening, Well, if bad things

929
00:51:11,800 --> 00:51:16,160
Speaker 3: are actually happening, you are not catastrophizing, they really are

930
00:51:16,320 --> 00:51:19,520
Speaker 3: happening to you. You know, sometimes you're paranoid and sometimes

931
00:51:19,560 --> 00:51:23,800
Speaker 3: they're really out to get you. A job of a

932
00:51:23,880 --> 00:51:27,640
Speaker 3: therapist to find out what really is happening and to

933
00:51:27,719 --> 00:51:31,759
Speaker 3: be able to discern that. Yes, sometimes you may have

934
00:51:32,000 --> 00:51:36,360
Speaker 3: somebody imagining things, but sometimes something really is going on.

935
00:51:36,719 --> 00:51:38,760
Speaker 3: And if they are imagining, then you have to figure

936
00:51:38,760 --> 00:51:40,800
Speaker 3: out why would they be imagining that.

937
00:51:41,360 --> 00:51:43,439
Speaker 4: I wish every therapist had to talk to five people

938
00:51:43,520 --> 00:51:44,000
Speaker 4: in your life.

939
00:51:45,800 --> 00:51:48,960
Speaker 3: I wish that too, that would be helpful because they

940
00:51:49,040 --> 00:51:52,120
Speaker 3: only know your side of the story, the side of

941
00:51:52,200 --> 00:51:55,239
Speaker 3: the story. But I almost feel like we are like

942
00:51:55,520 --> 00:51:59,520
Speaker 3: when people start going looking for PTSD, you may end

943
00:51:59,640 --> 00:52:02,000
Speaker 3: up I don't want to say creating it, but I

944
00:52:02,080 --> 00:52:04,520
Speaker 3: do not know how else to say it. Because we

945
00:52:04,760 --> 00:52:08,400
Speaker 3: know that out of all the people who experience various

946
00:52:08,600 --> 00:52:12,600
Speaker 3: kinds of traumatic events, only about fifteen percent will actually

947
00:52:12,680 --> 00:52:16,600
Speaker 3: develop PTSD symptoms. Right, that doesn't mean that as a

948
00:52:16,719 --> 00:52:20,319
Speaker 3: people are not affected at all. They just won't specifically

949
00:52:20,400 --> 00:52:23,520
Speaker 3: have PTSD symptoms. They may have as an issue that

950
00:52:23,640 --> 00:52:26,000
Speaker 3: they will develop from that, or maybe they are more

951
00:52:26,080 --> 00:52:29,840
Speaker 3: resilient and while they're going to be affected and changed

952
00:52:29,920 --> 00:52:33,040
Speaker 3: by this trauma, it's not going to be clinical change.

953
00:52:33,200 --> 00:52:37,080
Speaker 2: We did an episode on resilience, but that was one

954
00:52:37,120 --> 00:52:39,520
Speaker 2: of the things we talked about, how people are more

955
00:52:39,600 --> 00:52:45,160
Speaker 2: resilient than maybe the culture is currently telling us. And yes,

956
00:52:45,239 --> 00:52:49,319
Speaker 2: if our confirmation bias is such that if you are

957
00:52:49,360 --> 00:52:51,799
Speaker 2: being told there's something that happened to you that was bad,

958
00:52:51,840 --> 00:52:53,279
Speaker 2: there's something that happened to you that was bad or

959
00:52:53,360 --> 00:52:56,000
Speaker 2: that affected you more than you think it did, which

960
00:52:56,040 --> 00:52:59,520
Speaker 2: of course often is the case, but sometimes it can

961
00:52:59,680 --> 00:53:02,000
Speaker 2: create new narrative that maybe didn't have to be there

962
00:53:02,040 --> 00:53:02,680
Speaker 2: in the first place.

963
00:53:03,080 --> 00:53:06,879
Speaker 3: Yes, and that's that's very much it. I have experienced

964
00:53:06,960 --> 00:53:09,880
Speaker 3: traumatic events, mostly as an adult. I mean, I've been

965
00:53:09,960 --> 00:53:11,800
Speaker 3: bullied as a child. You know, I could say that

966
00:53:11,920 --> 00:53:15,640
Speaker 3: was also traumatic, But I do not have post traumatic

967
00:53:15,719 --> 00:53:19,200
Speaker 3: stress disorder from any of these. I have been very

968
00:53:19,280 --> 00:53:21,800
Speaker 3: much affected by some of those things that happened to

969
00:53:21,880 --> 00:53:25,320
Speaker 3: me in my young adulthood, and I now understand in

970
00:53:25,440 --> 00:53:29,160
Speaker 3: what ways it was affected, but it wasn't specifically PTSD.

971
00:53:29,440 --> 00:53:32,040
Speaker 3: And that seems to now be the narrative that the

972
00:53:32,200 --> 00:53:37,640
Speaker 3: trauma always creates, the post traumatic symptom or recordings PTSD,

973
00:53:37,800 --> 00:53:41,280
Speaker 3: where we're now saying, oh, pretty much anything, any possible,

974
00:53:41,360 --> 00:53:44,200
Speaker 3: slightest bad thing that happens to you in your childhood

975
00:53:44,960 --> 00:53:49,080
Speaker 3: that's going to destroy you for life, and it doesn't

976
00:53:49,120 --> 00:53:49,360
Speaker 3: have to.

977
00:53:49,640 --> 00:53:50,200
Speaker 4: But what do we do?

978
00:53:52,000 --> 00:53:54,560
Speaker 3: Honestly, this is going to be a weird suggestion, but

979
00:53:54,680 --> 00:53:56,120
Speaker 3: I'm going to say, read more books.

980
00:53:56,800 --> 00:53:58,279
Speaker 2: But what if they're by the bad one, if they're

981
00:53:58,280 --> 00:53:59,280
Speaker 2: all beseil vandercock?

982
00:54:00,200 --> 00:54:05,800
Speaker 3: No, No, read fiction. Read stories of resilience, Read stories

983
00:54:05,920 --> 00:54:12,440
Speaker 3: of survival. Read stories Oh people having very difficult things

984
00:54:12,560 --> 00:54:15,800
Speaker 3: happening to them. We now have people going around watching

985
00:54:15,880 --> 00:54:19,880
Speaker 3: Disney movies and diagnosing the princesses because there is no

986
00:54:20,080 --> 00:54:24,160
Speaker 3: princess in a story that has an intact family and

987
00:54:24,280 --> 00:54:28,640
Speaker 3: not trauma, right, Like, that's not a thing. But we've

988
00:54:28,719 --> 00:54:32,840
Speaker 3: told those stories to children for generations upon generations, and

989
00:54:33,000 --> 00:54:36,279
Speaker 3: you have to think, what were those stories for? Why

990
00:54:36,360 --> 00:54:40,279
Speaker 3: were we telling those stories? Why does Cinderella get out

991
00:54:40,640 --> 00:54:43,480
Speaker 3: from under her stepmother and marry the prince. What's the

992
00:54:43,520 --> 00:54:46,040
Speaker 3: point of telling that story. It's not so we start

993
00:54:46,160 --> 00:54:50,520
Speaker 3: wearing crystal shows to balls. It's so we understand that

994
00:54:50,800 --> 00:54:54,440
Speaker 3: you may be oppressed and you may be mistreated, but

995
00:54:54,600 --> 00:54:57,320
Speaker 3: it doesn't have to be the rest of your story

996
00:54:57,600 --> 00:54:58,560
Speaker 3: and the rest of your life.

997
00:54:58,760 --> 00:54:59,440
Speaker 2: I'm snapping.

998
00:55:00,040 --> 00:55:01,960
Speaker 4: I wish the answer wasn't always that a man was

999
00:55:02,040 --> 00:55:03,399
Speaker 4: coming to get me about the show.

1000
00:55:03,400 --> 00:55:06,880
Speaker 3: I often think, wow, why is everybody traumatized? Now? How

1001
00:55:06,960 --> 00:55:09,600
Speaker 3: come people wearing traumatized before? Yes, they were, They were

1002
00:55:09,680 --> 00:55:13,640
Speaker 3: traumatized to lower the place. People suffered. People have always suffered.

1003
00:55:13,680 --> 00:55:16,239
Speaker 3: That's what it means to be human. It is to suffer. Also,

1004
00:55:16,280 --> 00:55:18,680
Speaker 3: I'm Jewish, of course it is to suffer. That's what

1005
00:55:18,800 --> 00:55:21,200
Speaker 3: we do. And then there is also this whole you know,

1006
00:55:21,920 --> 00:55:24,560
Speaker 3: narrative that you were supposed to be traumatized by the

1007
00:55:24,640 --> 00:55:27,520
Speaker 3: generational trauma forever and ever. And we have research that

1008
00:55:27,600 --> 00:55:30,279
Speaker 3: says that, yes, it does make you most acceptable and

1009
00:55:30,320 --> 00:55:33,240
Speaker 3: more predisposed in the future to be affected by traumatic events.

1010
00:55:33,920 --> 00:55:38,359
Speaker 3: But it also gives you examples of resilience. It also

1011
00:55:38,440 --> 00:55:42,279
Speaker 3: gives you examples of survival. It also gives you examples

1012
00:55:42,360 --> 00:55:45,239
Speaker 3: of hop and skills and how to refocus your life.

1013
00:55:45,719 --> 00:55:48,040
Speaker 3: So you know, I'm not a therapist. I'm not going

1014
00:55:48,120 --> 00:55:50,840
Speaker 3: to give you like correct therapy advice, but this is

1015
00:55:50,880 --> 00:55:53,759
Speaker 3: how I function As a child. I was obsessed with

1016
00:55:53,920 --> 00:55:57,719
Speaker 3: Victor Hugo, you know, miserable Hunchback of Notre Dame, the

1017
00:55:57,840 --> 00:56:02,520
Speaker 3: Man who Laughed. They're also depressant, like everybody dies. I

1018
00:56:02,880 --> 00:56:05,000
Speaker 3: was when I learned that Hundchback of Notre Dame was

1019
00:56:05,040 --> 00:56:07,320
Speaker 3: a Disney movie. I was horrified. And I had to

1020
00:56:07,360 --> 00:56:09,479
Speaker 3: go watch it as a camp conselor, as a bunch

1021
00:56:09,520 --> 00:56:12,320
Speaker 3: of five six year olds, and that was an experience

1022
00:56:12,360 --> 00:56:15,120
Speaker 3: and well, you know, nobody gets.

1023
00:56:15,000 --> 00:56:15,760
Speaker 2: The goal oiler.

1024
00:56:17,000 --> 00:56:20,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I never read the book. I don't recommend

1025
00:56:20,320 --> 00:56:22,319
Speaker 3: read that book. You don't read that book that books

1026
00:56:22,360 --> 00:56:25,160
Speaker 3: the present and it has quite a texture in it.

1027
00:56:25,920 --> 00:56:29,120
Speaker 3: But I did. Again, this was like, you know, so

1028
00:56:29,200 --> 00:56:32,640
Speaker 3: I there weren't also a lot of books available in

1029
00:56:32,719 --> 00:56:37,200
Speaker 3: the Soviet Union that the whole separate conversation. But I've read,

1030
00:56:37,719 --> 00:56:41,560
Speaker 3: I think, for almost all of his major works, and

1031
00:56:41,800 --> 00:56:46,360
Speaker 3: it's all about somebody at the very least is finding

1032
00:56:46,480 --> 00:56:50,680
Speaker 3: a way through all of these like unimaginable difficulties and

1033
00:56:50,840 --> 00:56:55,000
Speaker 3: retaining their humanity and staying a good person. And sometimes

1034
00:56:55,040 --> 00:56:58,279
Speaker 3: they die, but they're still a good person until they died,

1035
00:56:58,320 --> 00:57:04,920
Speaker 3: because it's wow, you know, But I'm not recommending this.

1036
00:57:05,120 --> 00:57:08,160
Speaker 3: This is not for everybody, right, But even something like

1037
00:57:08,239 --> 00:57:12,800
Speaker 3: Harry Potter, even something like Disney Princess movies like literally everything.

1038
00:57:12,840 --> 00:57:14,799
Speaker 3: If you look at it and you think, I mean

1039
00:57:15,000 --> 00:57:18,520
Speaker 3: Rapunzel in Tangled, this is actually one of my like

1040
00:57:19,000 --> 00:57:21,240
Speaker 3: one that's probably my favorite, but but Tangle's probably my

1041
00:57:21,320 --> 00:57:24,439
Speaker 3: second favorite. If I'm thinking of like this and she's

1042
00:57:24,520 --> 00:57:27,960
Speaker 3: like trapped in the Starer and she's completely exploited by

1043
00:57:28,240 --> 00:57:31,400
Speaker 3: very much, I'm going to totally diagnose my character might

1044
00:57:31,440 --> 00:57:36,200
Speaker 3: not like ah, but that's like literally her whole narrative, right,

1045
00:57:36,280 --> 00:57:39,280
Speaker 3: She's all about youth and beauty and exploiting this child.

1046
00:57:39,680 --> 00:57:42,560
Speaker 3: That's the story. And she wants to stay beautiful, and

1047
00:57:42,640 --> 00:57:46,600
Speaker 3: I spoiling Tangled for you, now, no, don't worry, right,

1048
00:57:46,840 --> 00:57:50,200
Speaker 3: But then she really wants to go and meet people

1049
00:57:50,560 --> 00:57:54,200
Speaker 3: and have experiences, and she does that, and then she

1050
00:57:54,400 --> 00:57:58,040
Speaker 3: wants and she's betrayed, and she still sees good and

1051
00:57:58,280 --> 00:58:02,680
Speaker 3: focuses on leaving her life and not getting stuck in

1052
00:58:02,840 --> 00:58:06,000
Speaker 3: that trauma, getting stuck in that past. Right, So I

1053
00:58:06,080 --> 00:58:09,200
Speaker 3: would not make a very good trauma informed therapist clearly

1054
00:58:09,360 --> 00:58:13,760
Speaker 3: because I would be like, okay, so that happened, now, yeah, but.

1055
00:58:14,080 --> 00:58:18,320
Speaker 2: But I but you know, we see so many people,

1056
00:58:18,360 --> 00:58:20,680
Speaker 2: We talked to so many people on this podcast who've

1057
00:58:20,680 --> 00:58:27,120
Speaker 2: been through like unimaginable horrors and they go on living

1058
00:58:27,400 --> 00:58:30,240
Speaker 2: and they you know, they they do go to therapy

1059
00:58:30,400 --> 00:58:33,920
Speaker 2: and many of them and and but they rebuild and

1060
00:58:34,000 --> 00:58:35,760
Speaker 2: they build a life and they're so resilient and it

1061
00:58:35,880 --> 00:58:37,960
Speaker 2: is so inspiring. And I think that's you know, we have,

1062
00:58:38,120 --> 00:58:39,440
Speaker 2: we do have a lot of survivors who listen to

1063
00:58:39,520 --> 00:58:42,960
Speaker 2: this podcast, and seeing themselves in those stories is I

1064
00:58:43,040 --> 00:58:46,360
Speaker 2: think a big part of the appeal. And it's that

1065
00:58:46,480 --> 00:58:48,760
Speaker 2: it seems to be like kind of a similar instinct

1066
00:58:48,760 --> 00:58:51,080
Speaker 2: to looking for your community on TikTok, because it's like

1067
00:58:51,200 --> 00:58:54,560
Speaker 2: I need to find people who understand me, who it's

1068
00:58:54,680 --> 00:58:57,760
Speaker 2: to make me feel less alone, And for that it's great.

1069
00:58:58,320 --> 00:59:01,320
Speaker 2: Would you say that, like maybe the way to navigate

1070
00:59:01,400 --> 00:59:05,439
Speaker 2: it is like consider that you might have a diagnosis,

1071
00:59:05,840 --> 00:59:09,040
Speaker 2: but try to keep an open mind and be flexible

1072
00:59:09,480 --> 00:59:12,040
Speaker 2: about what that means for you, or like.

1073
00:59:12,880 --> 00:59:15,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm good with that. But also I've been thinking

1074
00:59:16,560 --> 00:59:19,840
Speaker 3: more about like my own personal kind of approach to

1075
00:59:20,320 --> 00:59:23,480
Speaker 3: the trauma and all the bad things and hoping and

1076
00:59:23,520 --> 00:59:26,680
Speaker 3: all of that. And I have been raised by my mother.

1077
00:59:26,960 --> 00:59:30,560
Speaker 3: I'm now realizing to be a problem solver because we

1078
00:59:30,680 --> 00:59:33,240
Speaker 3: had a lot of problems, and she never led the

1079
00:59:33,320 --> 00:59:36,320
Speaker 3: problems to stop her. So she would always try to

1080
00:59:36,400 --> 00:59:39,640
Speaker 3: find a solution, like what do we do about this? Okay,

1081
00:59:39,760 --> 00:59:42,120
Speaker 3: so this happened or this is happening? What do we do?

1082
00:59:42,720 --> 00:59:45,440
Speaker 3: How do we find a way out of it or around?

1083
00:59:46,240 --> 00:59:50,480
Speaker 3: You don't just stop when you identify the problem, right right,

1084
00:59:50,600 --> 00:59:53,320
Speaker 3: And that is another thing is often one of the

1085
00:59:53,480 --> 00:59:57,840
Speaker 3: therapeutics approaches tends to be just listening and like not

1086
00:59:58,000 --> 01:00:02,120
Speaker 3: trying to solve the problem, but just emphasizing or Latin

1087
01:00:02,160 --> 01:00:04,840
Speaker 3: them talks or their feelings and all that. And sometimes

1088
01:00:04,920 --> 01:00:07,040
Speaker 3: we all need that for somebody to just listen to

1089
01:00:07,160 --> 01:00:11,680
Speaker 3: us complain, right sure, But for me that is not

1090
01:00:12,360 --> 01:00:15,840
Speaker 3: enough to just have somebody that can complain to. Sometimes

1091
01:00:15,960 --> 01:00:18,200
Speaker 3: I want to complain to somebody, but I also know

1092
01:00:18,440 --> 01:00:21,520
Speaker 3: that right now that is actually solving a problem for me.

1093
01:00:21,760 --> 01:00:23,800
Speaker 3: I want to be heard. That's a problem, but the

1094
01:00:23,960 --> 01:00:27,480
Speaker 3: underlying problem I still have to solve. Right. So, if

1095
01:00:27,600 --> 01:00:31,440
Speaker 3: we have something that troubles us, something that interferes with

1096
01:00:31,560 --> 01:00:34,480
Speaker 3: our ability to live our life, that's a real problem.

1097
01:00:34,800 --> 01:00:37,080
Speaker 3: Just because it's in your head doesn't mean it's not real, right,

1098
01:00:37,160 --> 01:00:39,520
Speaker 3: Like it's a real problem. It may not be a

1099
01:00:39,720 --> 01:00:43,000
Speaker 3: problem that we named, but it's still real and it's

1100
01:00:43,040 --> 01:00:45,840
Speaker 3: still a problem that we should be finding our way

1101
01:00:46,440 --> 01:00:49,400
Speaker 3: out of or at least around so we can keep

1102
01:00:49,480 --> 01:00:54,160
Speaker 3: living our life and benefiting from life experiences. So I

1103
01:00:54,520 --> 01:00:58,040
Speaker 3: try to tell people with respect to solve diagnosis, is

1104
01:00:58,120 --> 01:01:03,120
Speaker 3: that for me in this situations, having a label is

1105
01:01:03,280 --> 01:01:07,400
Speaker 3: less important than having solutions for how to deal with

1106
01:01:08,240 --> 01:01:11,680
Speaker 3: the actual things that bother you, that interfere with your life.

1107
01:01:11,840 --> 01:01:15,720
Speaker 3: So sometimes having a label can actually stop you from

1108
01:01:15,800 --> 01:01:20,480
Speaker 3: doing that, And sometimes having a label opens ways of

1109
01:01:20,960 --> 01:01:24,640
Speaker 3: knowing what solutions are available. And I cannot say there

1110
01:01:24,720 --> 01:01:27,240
Speaker 3: is like a one size fits all answer here, right,

1111
01:01:27,400 --> 01:01:30,240
Speaker 3: It depends most of the time. If say you have

1112
01:01:30,520 --> 01:01:34,680
Speaker 3: executive functioning issues, right, you can deal with like specific

1113
01:01:34,760 --> 01:01:39,400
Speaker 3: executive functioning issues by looking at ADHD community and seeing

1114
01:01:39,480 --> 01:01:43,320
Speaker 3: how people do body doubling or how people create like

1115
01:01:43,560 --> 01:01:47,880
Speaker 3: cleaning techniques and or arrange the refrigerators so vegetables are

1116
01:01:47,960 --> 01:01:50,200
Speaker 3: in a door. That was a great tip for me

1117
01:01:50,360 --> 01:01:54,120
Speaker 3: that I've learned from TikTok from case right, all of

1118
01:01:54,200 --> 01:01:58,360
Speaker 3: these things you can take from that community. You do

1119
01:01:58,520 --> 01:02:02,320
Speaker 3: not need to identifyify yourself with that diagnosis to be

1120
01:02:02,480 --> 01:02:07,000
Speaker 3: able to benefit from these solutions. Yes, and if it

1121
01:02:07,280 --> 01:02:10,760
Speaker 3: helps you to identify yourself with a diagnosis, fine, but

1122
01:02:11,040 --> 01:02:13,600
Speaker 3: keep in mind that it may actually step and stop

1123
01:02:13,680 --> 01:02:17,880
Speaker 3: you from finding what actually is causing the executive dysfunction, right,

1124
01:02:18,160 --> 01:02:21,600
Speaker 3: because it can be in fact trauma not ADHD. Despite

1125
01:02:21,640 --> 01:02:24,200
Speaker 3: what government says that they are the same things, they're different.

1126
01:02:24,920 --> 01:02:27,960
Speaker 3: You can develop executive dysfunction as a result of a

1127
01:02:28,120 --> 01:02:31,800
Speaker 3: traumatic experience or as a result of your support systems,

1128
01:02:31,880 --> 01:02:34,480
Speaker 3: for in a part of grief or depression. Right, and

1129
01:02:34,640 --> 01:02:36,960
Speaker 3: then not going to be like medication is not going

1130
01:02:37,040 --> 01:02:39,440
Speaker 3: to work. What it's not the same medication. But you

1131
01:02:39,520 --> 01:02:42,880
Speaker 3: also cannot or shouldn't get medication without a professional So

1132
01:02:43,040 --> 01:02:47,520
Speaker 3: that's another thing. That's another benefit of seeking a professional diagnosis.

1133
01:02:47,640 --> 01:02:50,920
Speaker 3: So you can also find appropriate medical treat if that

1134
01:02:51,080 --> 01:02:55,080
Speaker 3: treatment exists. Right, I'm sorry, I know it would be

1135
01:02:55,160 --> 01:02:56,800
Speaker 3: helpful if I could just say, like do this.

1136
01:02:57,400 --> 01:02:59,080
Speaker 2: No, I think that was really helpful.

1137
01:02:59,280 --> 01:03:02,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean too, consider what you're doing, like really

1138
01:03:02,840 --> 01:03:06,960
Speaker 3: use critical thinking, catch yourself becoming perhaps to attach to

1139
01:03:07,120 --> 01:03:09,960
Speaker 3: something you found and think if that's helping you.

1140
01:03:10,160 --> 01:03:11,880
Speaker 2: Right, And I'm going to relate that back to what

1141
01:03:11,960 --> 01:03:16,400
Speaker 2: we talk about here constantly which is that, like we

1142
01:03:16,560 --> 01:03:20,160
Speaker 2: see again, people become so attached to like a leader

1143
01:03:20,520 --> 01:03:24,280
Speaker 2: or a community or a group, and it seems like

1144
01:03:24,640 --> 01:03:26,680
Speaker 2: one of the ways to kind of defend yourself is

1145
01:03:26,800 --> 01:03:30,000
Speaker 2: to never let that be the only thing, the only

1146
01:03:30,120 --> 01:03:34,080
Speaker 2: source of information, the only community that you have. Because

1147
01:03:34,120 --> 01:03:36,280
Speaker 2: when you're getting when you're looking to only one place

1148
01:03:36,400 --> 01:03:38,600
Speaker 2: for all of your needs to be met, that's when

1149
01:03:38,640 --> 01:03:41,480
Speaker 2: you run into Harry territory and it sounds like, you know,

1150
01:03:41,840 --> 01:03:46,280
Speaker 2: so it's like almost like sampling community from multiple places,

1151
01:03:46,720 --> 01:03:49,560
Speaker 2: sampling information, and it sounds like it's sort of the

1152
01:03:49,560 --> 01:03:49,920
Speaker 2: same thing.

1153
01:03:50,320 --> 01:03:52,680
Speaker 3: That is also why like when people are saying, well,

1154
01:03:52,720 --> 01:03:54,640
Speaker 3: why should they listen to you, and I go, well,

1155
01:03:54,720 --> 01:03:57,920
Speaker 3: don't just listen to me giving you all these resources.

1156
01:03:58,160 --> 01:04:01,400
Speaker 3: I'm giving you like the resource giving you the information.

1157
01:04:01,640 --> 01:04:04,000
Speaker 3: Go look at that, right. I'm not claiming to be

1158
01:04:04,040 --> 01:04:06,760
Speaker 3: an expert, like on every topic out there, I'm going

1159
01:04:06,800 --> 01:04:09,080
Speaker 3: to tell you who the experts are. Go listen to

1160
01:04:09,360 --> 01:04:12,040
Speaker 3: them or go find your own, but use your critical

1161
01:04:12,120 --> 01:04:14,840
Speaker 3: thinking all the time. I'm trying to teach people how

1162
01:04:14,960 --> 01:04:19,520
Speaker 3: to find information, how to avaliate information, how to question claims,

1163
01:04:19,800 --> 01:04:22,600
Speaker 3: basically so that they can do that for themselves. So

1164
01:04:22,840 --> 01:04:25,480
Speaker 3: that they don't just have to ask me to check

1165
01:04:25,560 --> 01:04:26,240
Speaker 3: something for them.

1166
01:04:26,480 --> 01:04:26,600
Speaker 1: Right.

1167
01:04:27,000 --> 01:04:29,360
Speaker 2: You did a ted X talk which is great and

1168
01:04:29,440 --> 01:04:33,320
Speaker 2: everyone should watch it, where you talked about this idea

1169
01:04:33,320 --> 01:04:36,520
Speaker 2: of indoctrination, and you talked about the idea of changing

1170
01:04:36,720 --> 01:04:39,280
Speaker 2: your mind and why that's painful and why that's difficult.

1171
01:04:39,320 --> 01:04:42,720
Speaker 2: And I think, especially right now on social media where

1172
01:04:42,760 --> 01:04:46,400
Speaker 2: we're all digging our heels and even deeper into our groups,

1173
01:04:47,000 --> 01:04:50,120
Speaker 2: why is it important to change well, why is it

1174
01:04:50,240 --> 01:04:52,320
Speaker 2: so painful to change our minds? And how do we

1175
01:04:52,480 --> 01:04:54,440
Speaker 2: teach ourselves to be better at that?

1176
01:04:54,640 --> 01:04:58,080
Speaker 3: I guess because it's very uncomfortable to be wrong, to

1177
01:04:58,200 --> 01:05:00,640
Speaker 3: be able to say I was wrong when you were

1178
01:05:00,760 --> 01:05:04,520
Speaker 3: claiming something, especially when you're claiming something about yourself that

1179
01:05:04,640 --> 01:05:08,280
Speaker 3: you've decided was right and you decided that that's who

1180
01:05:08,280 --> 01:05:10,120
Speaker 3: you are. That's why I was saying, like, when people

1181
01:05:10,480 --> 01:05:13,840
Speaker 3: start treating the diagnosiss identity, it becomes almost impossible to

1182
01:05:13,920 --> 01:05:16,479
Speaker 3: let goal because then you like literally end up saying

1183
01:05:16,560 --> 01:05:19,080
Speaker 3: that you are a fraud. Right, And you're not necessarily

1184
01:05:19,120 --> 01:05:21,760
Speaker 3: a fraud just because you believe something about yourself that's

1185
01:05:21,800 --> 01:05:23,880
Speaker 3: not true, but you have to say that you're wrong

1186
01:05:24,120 --> 01:05:28,520
Speaker 3: and being right, literally like activates our brain passways for

1187
01:05:28,640 --> 01:05:31,840
Speaker 3: the reward feelings, right Like, that's that's the dopamine, that's

1188
01:05:31,920 --> 01:05:36,200
Speaker 3: the reinforcement. It feels good being wrong because it's associated

1189
01:05:36,320 --> 01:05:39,840
Speaker 3: with lots of unpleasant kinds of things, like way back

1190
01:05:39,880 --> 01:05:42,040
Speaker 3: in your childhood, right when you have to be corrected

1191
01:05:42,120 --> 01:05:44,919
Speaker 3: in school, when your parents told you you did something bad.

1192
01:05:45,240 --> 01:05:47,880
Speaker 3: All of those things are associated with being wrong. So

1193
01:05:48,120 --> 01:05:51,760
Speaker 3: it's super hard for anybody to admit that we are wrong.

1194
01:05:52,040 --> 01:05:55,360
Speaker 3: That's literally like a skill one has to cultivate be

1195
01:05:55,440 --> 01:05:58,520
Speaker 3: able to say, I have to change my mind. I

1196
01:05:58,760 --> 01:06:03,920
Speaker 3: was not correct about the disinformation requires that I readjust

1197
01:06:04,000 --> 01:06:06,919
Speaker 3: my thinking and start considering things in a different way.

1198
01:06:07,480 --> 01:06:10,560
Speaker 3: This is very hard, right, and it's very uncomfortable. And

1199
01:06:10,760 --> 01:06:13,080
Speaker 3: then there is this whole you like to think of

1200
01:06:13,160 --> 01:06:16,720
Speaker 3: yourself as a reasonable and smart person who understands things,

1201
01:06:16,880 --> 01:06:20,440
Speaker 3: especially things about yourself. Right, and again when you're saying, oh,

1202
01:06:20,560 --> 01:06:23,800
Speaker 3: but I don't, then there is also cognitive dissonance, and

1203
01:06:23,920 --> 01:06:27,680
Speaker 3: that is uncomfortable and we know it like literally slows

1204
01:06:27,760 --> 01:06:31,800
Speaker 3: people down in cognitive tasks when the experience cognitive dissonance

1205
01:06:32,560 --> 01:06:36,320
Speaker 3: because the brain catches you just get stuck on that

1206
01:06:36,680 --> 01:06:40,560
Speaker 3: and you can't have those boss sorts together, right, So

1207
01:06:40,640 --> 01:06:43,040
Speaker 3: you have to let go of one and the one

1208
01:06:43,080 --> 01:06:45,400
Speaker 3: where you were right that was there longer and it

1209
01:06:45,480 --> 01:06:47,520
Speaker 3: feels better, and it's very hard to let go of that.

1210
01:06:48,400 --> 01:06:51,120
Speaker 1: I will say the hope and maybe this is you know,

1211
01:06:51,200 --> 01:06:53,120
Speaker 1: maybe we shouldn't hope for opening heads.

1212
01:06:53,160 --> 01:06:54,200
Speaker 4: Maybe that's the wrong goal.

1213
01:06:54,320 --> 01:06:57,520
Speaker 1: But I'm in an X group for the religion that

1214
01:06:57,560 --> 01:06:59,560
Speaker 1: I grew up in, and people will go through very

1215
01:06:59,600 --> 01:07:03,200
Speaker 1: painful processes where they're giving up that belief system and whatever.

1216
01:07:03,520 --> 01:07:06,240
Speaker 1: But then once it kind of latches in, then the

1217
01:07:06,320 --> 01:07:08,880
Speaker 1: dopamine starts coming to hit of like that was wrong,

1218
01:07:09,320 --> 01:07:12,640
Speaker 1: this was my beliefs were wrong. And your new community,

1219
01:07:13,000 --> 01:07:15,640
Speaker 1: you have a new community, and you're like getting dopamine releases.

1220
01:07:15,760 --> 01:07:18,400
Speaker 3: So then your community is telling you that you're right.

1221
01:07:18,520 --> 01:07:21,440
Speaker 4: Exactly right, exactly, and you'll alone and.

1222
01:07:21,640 --> 01:07:23,880
Speaker 3: You interact with all of these as a people who

1223
01:07:23,920 --> 01:07:27,560
Speaker 3: are giving you feedbacks that you are right, and doing

1224
01:07:27,800 --> 01:07:31,600
Speaker 3: this kind of deconstructing in a community is much better

1225
01:07:31,680 --> 01:07:32,640
Speaker 3: than doing it by yourself.

1226
01:07:32,840 --> 01:07:34,440
Speaker 4: Yes, yes, so.

1227
01:07:34,520 --> 01:07:37,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess there's just hope for uh, you know,

1228
01:07:37,560 --> 01:07:41,320
Speaker 1: for there's hope for being I don't want to use

1229
01:07:41,320 --> 01:07:43,800
Speaker 1: their comfortable because comfortable sounds not good, but just like

1230
01:07:44,280 --> 01:07:47,800
Speaker 1: a little bit more harmonious in your brain after making

1231
01:07:48,280 --> 01:07:51,440
Speaker 1: a discovery that you're wrong about something, absolutely.

1232
01:07:51,240 --> 01:07:54,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, if you wouldn't accept it, you know. This reminded

1233
01:07:54,400 --> 01:07:57,400
Speaker 3: me I am so bad at messages. Sometimes I answer

1234
01:07:57,480 --> 01:08:00,160
Speaker 3: messages and sometimes they don't answer messages, and I set

1235
01:08:00,200 --> 01:08:02,880
Speaker 3: them aside and I don't for a while, especially like

1236
01:08:02,920 --> 01:08:05,920
Speaker 3: when I get dms on Instagram, and a couple of

1237
01:08:06,000 --> 01:08:09,520
Speaker 3: months ago, I got a DM from an ADHD influencer

1238
01:08:09,800 --> 01:08:12,600
Speaker 3: who wanted me to tell him if he was doing

1239
01:08:12,720 --> 01:08:16,080
Speaker 3: things right or wrong and he didn't want to mislead people.

1240
01:08:16,560 --> 01:08:20,080
Speaker 3: That's nice given accurate information, yes, But then I went

1241
01:08:20,160 --> 01:08:23,880
Speaker 3: and looked at the content and I did not know

1242
01:08:24,320 --> 01:08:27,880
Speaker 3: how to do this nicely because my inclination was like,

1243
01:08:28,040 --> 01:08:33,160
Speaker 3: you scrap your whole page, and I cannot do that, right,

1244
01:08:33,320 --> 01:08:36,240
Speaker 3: Like that's true, that's just true. I couldn't do that.

1245
01:08:36,520 --> 01:08:39,280
Speaker 3: And I didn't know how to explain because it seemed

1246
01:08:39,280 --> 01:08:43,080
Speaker 3: to me like this person understood what ways of communicating

1247
01:08:43,240 --> 01:08:47,720
Speaker 3: and what implications were perhaps not recommended, and what generalizations

1248
01:08:47,840 --> 01:08:51,680
Speaker 3: shouldn't be done because of how he addressed me, And like,

1249
01:08:52,040 --> 01:08:55,040
Speaker 3: after watching what content. He addressed me that way, but

1250
01:08:55,160 --> 01:08:57,280
Speaker 3: at the same time he was like literally the same

1251
01:08:57,320 --> 01:09:00,479
Speaker 3: time posting things like that, and I didn't know how

1252
01:09:00,560 --> 01:09:02,479
Speaker 3: to handle it, and I set it aside in a

1253
01:09:02,560 --> 01:09:04,760
Speaker 3: hope that I don't like, figure it out and get back.

1254
01:09:04,920 --> 01:09:08,280
Speaker 3: And I did not because because I still think scrappy

1255
01:09:08,320 --> 01:09:10,679
Speaker 3: whole page and stop doing this because this is not helped.

1256
01:09:11,560 --> 01:09:14,000
Speaker 3: But in the past I had an encounter with a

1257
01:09:14,080 --> 01:09:19,439
Speaker 3: different ADHD influencer who initially accepted the correction and said

1258
01:09:19,560 --> 01:09:22,240
Speaker 3: that that was okay and he'll think about things better,

1259
01:09:22,680 --> 01:09:27,400
Speaker 3: and then got mad at me and said that he's

1260
01:09:27,520 --> 01:09:29,479
Speaker 3: going to prove that he is right in and no,

1261
01:09:29,960 --> 01:09:33,200
Speaker 3: that is not possible because not all famous people in

1262
01:09:33,360 --> 01:09:36,559
Speaker 3: history had ADHD. Other that's just not how that works.

1263
01:09:37,280 --> 01:09:42,599
Speaker 3: And that was his argument, and he got so mad

1264
01:09:42,640 --> 01:09:45,000
Speaker 3: at me is that he wrote a whole hate poem

1265
01:09:45,120 --> 01:09:45,560
Speaker 3: about me.

1266
01:09:46,400 --> 01:09:48,639
Speaker 4: My goodness, look at you popular.

1267
01:09:49,240 --> 01:09:51,519
Speaker 3: I know during the week I was accused of being

1268
01:09:51,600 --> 01:09:56,080
Speaker 3: an evil neurotypical professor. I've been formally diagnosed with ADHD

1269
01:09:57,040 --> 01:10:01,080
Speaker 3: and and everything and h yeah, and I got the

1270
01:10:01,240 --> 01:10:05,519
Speaker 3: shreds and all kinds of things. Gosh literally blocked that

1271
01:10:05,640 --> 01:10:09,760
Speaker 3: person and moved on with my life, but it was

1272
01:10:09,760 --> 01:10:12,960
Speaker 3: an unpleasant summer. It went on for like over a months,

1273
01:10:13,880 --> 01:10:17,400
Speaker 3: that whole thing, right, And so when this other person

1274
01:10:17,520 --> 01:10:21,000
Speaker 3: contacted me, who triggerently I think had like very related

1275
01:10:21,080 --> 01:10:24,759
Speaker 3: first name. Even I will not call that full on trauma,

1276
01:10:24,840 --> 01:10:28,240
Speaker 3: but I certainly had an association, right, I had react

1277
01:10:28,240 --> 01:10:31,360
Speaker 3: with it. I did not know how to answer. I

1278
01:10:31,439 --> 01:10:34,320
Speaker 3: did not know what to say because on the one hand,

1279
01:10:34,400 --> 01:10:36,880
Speaker 3: I was glad that he was seek in correction. At

1280
01:10:36,920 --> 01:10:39,280
Speaker 3: the other hand, I did not trust that it was

1281
01:10:39,560 --> 01:10:44,320
Speaker 3: like real or sincere. So, but I am hopeful still,

1282
01:10:44,920 --> 01:10:47,680
Speaker 3: even though I did not step into that and like

1283
01:10:47,880 --> 01:10:52,559
Speaker 3: offer specific feedback and corrections or close your whole page,

1284
01:10:53,200 --> 01:10:56,960
Speaker 3: I am hopeful that even thinking about it spontaneously, it's

1285
01:10:57,040 --> 01:10:59,200
Speaker 3: kind of a step in the right direction. I'm hopeful

1286
01:10:59,280 --> 01:11:02,040
Speaker 3: that what I'm seeing in like as of community is

1287
01:11:02,080 --> 01:11:05,759
Speaker 3: a step in the right direction where people are starting

1288
01:11:05,920 --> 01:11:09,240
Speaker 3: having this dialogue and this conversation about are we doing

1289
01:11:09,360 --> 01:11:12,760
Speaker 3: the right things? Are we helping? Are we encouraging good

1290
01:11:12,840 --> 01:11:13,880
Speaker 3: behavior in each other?

1291
01:11:14,439 --> 01:11:17,040
Speaker 2: Yeah? I mean it seems to always come down to

1292
01:11:17,080 --> 01:11:19,600
Speaker 2: the same thing, which is that healthy community allows for

1293
01:11:19,680 --> 01:11:21,519
Speaker 2: their to be dialogue and allows for their to be

1294
01:11:21,720 --> 01:11:29,120
Speaker 2: questioning and revising based on evidence. Yeah, it seems to

1295
01:11:29,200 --> 01:11:33,160
Speaker 2: apply to all communities. And I you know, I still

1296
01:11:33,200 --> 01:11:35,360
Speaker 2: struggle with being wrong, but I'm getting better at it.

1297
01:11:36,680 --> 01:11:40,000
Speaker 2: And ask my boyfriend, I think I'm getting better at it,

1298
01:11:40,720 --> 01:11:42,880
Speaker 2: and my husbands.

1299
01:11:42,560 --> 01:11:45,560
Speaker 3: Will say that I'm not very good at it. I

1300
01:11:45,720 --> 01:11:48,919
Speaker 3: am pretty good at that at work, like in academic context,

1301
01:11:49,560 --> 01:11:50,920
Speaker 3: but at home apparently it does not.

1302
01:11:51,000 --> 01:11:54,760
Speaker 2: Work, so it's really hard. But also I'm always right,

1303
01:11:54,920 --> 01:11:59,479
Speaker 2: so that's part of it. But I just I want

1304
01:12:00,080 --> 01:12:04,520
Speaker 2: I want to encourage a culture of wrongness, of willing wrongness,

1305
01:12:04,800 --> 01:12:07,880
Speaker 2: and willingness to be like, you know what, that wasn't

1306
01:12:08,280 --> 01:12:10,880
Speaker 2: I misspoke there? Or that that was not evidence space.

1307
01:12:10,960 --> 01:12:12,639
Speaker 2: I know on this podcast we've said stuff that wasn't

1308
01:12:12,680 --> 01:12:15,240
Speaker 2: evidence based, and we were wrong when we did that.

1309
01:12:15,360 --> 01:12:18,559
Speaker 2: We were wrong when we talked about people who were peddling,

1310
01:12:18,760 --> 01:12:23,800
Speaker 2: you know, misinformation. As far as psychology, I think you're

1311
01:12:23,920 --> 01:12:27,880
Speaker 2: doing the Lord's work in making people think twice about

1312
01:12:27,920 --> 01:12:30,519
Speaker 2: what they trust on the internet, and hopefully, you know,

1313
01:12:30,840 --> 01:12:33,120
Speaker 2: hopefully it'll become a cool thing to be able to

1314
01:12:33,200 --> 01:12:35,719
Speaker 2: be like, you know what, I was wrong, I was wrong,

1315
01:12:35,840 --> 01:12:40,439
Speaker 2: I'm going to revise my position We're going to make

1316
01:12:40,479 --> 01:12:41,320
Speaker 2: it cool. Megan.

1317
01:12:41,680 --> 01:12:44,280
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, this is going to be the new thing.

1318
01:12:45,760 --> 01:12:46,799
Speaker 4: I was wrong.

1319
01:12:49,000 --> 01:12:52,799
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for coming here. It's a pleasure

1320
01:12:52,880 --> 01:12:55,280
Speaker 2: to talk to you. Do you have well where can

1321
01:12:55,280 --> 01:12:56,120
Speaker 2: people find you online?

1322
01:12:57,479 --> 01:13:00,400
Speaker 3: I am on TikTok, but I'm not very active on

1323
01:13:00,479 --> 01:13:07,120
Speaker 3: TikTok anymore than sorry, because TikTok treats me badly. Doctor

1324
01:13:07,200 --> 01:13:11,479
Speaker 3: Ina dr underscore, I N and A. I am on

1325
01:13:11,840 --> 01:13:17,240
Speaker 3: Instagram with an extra underscore in front. I am really

1326
01:13:17,360 --> 01:13:20,960
Speaker 3: not using other modalities a whole lot, even though I

1327
01:13:21,040 --> 01:13:25,720
Speaker 3: am there technically, and I have a link tree where

1328
01:13:25,760 --> 01:13:29,040
Speaker 3: I put all my resources and that's also people can

1329
01:13:29,200 --> 01:13:33,400
Speaker 3: actually find by searching for doctor Ina awesome, and all

1330
01:13:33,479 --> 01:13:37,439
Speaker 3: my social media and information and resources and a list

1331
01:13:37,479 --> 01:13:40,160
Speaker 3: of trusted professionals and various other things there.

1332
01:13:40,400 --> 01:13:43,680
Speaker 2: I hope that you write a book about how to

1333
01:13:44,720 --> 01:13:47,120
Speaker 2: separate fact from fiction, because I feel like that's a

1334
01:13:47,200 --> 01:13:50,120
Speaker 2: very necessary book and your voice would be very needed

1335
01:13:50,120 --> 01:13:50,639
Speaker 2: in that space.

1336
01:13:51,280 --> 01:13:53,080
Speaker 3: I do have an agent, and I was supposed to

1337
01:13:53,120 --> 01:13:54,920
Speaker 3: do a proposal last summer, but I did not.

1338
01:13:57,320 --> 01:14:00,160
Speaker 2: Well, it sounds like you had a hard summer, so right, well,

1339
01:14:00,200 --> 01:14:03,040
Speaker 2: thank you so much again, and have a wonderful rest

1340
01:14:03,080 --> 01:14:03,840
Speaker 2: of your evening.

1341
01:14:04,080 --> 01:14:06,439
Speaker 3: Thank you. It was a pleasure to a Ken museum.

1342
01:14:06,680 --> 01:14:10,679
Speaker 3: And I am going to become a listener because I'm

1343
01:14:10,800 --> 01:14:13,439
Speaker 3: starting to listen to more podcasts and your sound like

1344
01:14:13,520 --> 01:14:14,200
Speaker 3: a very good one.

1345
01:14:14,479 --> 01:14:18,680
Speaker 2: Yay, thank thank you. All right, y'all, that's the end.

1346
01:14:19,000 --> 01:14:22,000
Speaker 2: I'm so happy we got z to come on. You know,

1347
01:14:22,160 --> 01:14:24,720
Speaker 2: I'll say it again, Take what you like and leave

1348
01:14:24,800 --> 01:14:27,880
Speaker 2: the rest in terms of if something has worked for

1349
01:14:27,960 --> 01:14:31,560
Speaker 2: you therapeutically, not in terms of something being medically or

1350
01:14:31,600 --> 01:14:35,960
Speaker 2: scientifically valid or sound, because evidence does matter and that department. However,

1351
01:14:36,280 --> 01:14:39,160
Speaker 2: you know, if something works and you no longer have depression,

1352
01:14:39,280 --> 01:14:41,280
Speaker 2: or you feel like you've worked through your trauma, and

1353
01:14:41,439 --> 01:14:43,760
Speaker 2: maybe the reason why it works is just different than

1354
01:14:43,800 --> 01:14:46,280
Speaker 2: what we thought, that's fine. A healthy doess of skepticism

1355
01:14:46,400 --> 01:14:49,280
Speaker 2: is great, but even skepticism about the skeptics, because what

1356
01:14:49,360 --> 01:14:51,320
Speaker 2: do we do here? We do not please our trust

1357
01:14:51,760 --> 01:14:55,679
Speaker 2: all in one person. There we go. That's right, okay. Anyway,

1358
01:14:56,200 --> 01:14:59,400
Speaker 2: thanks y'all so much for joining us. Please rate us

1359
01:14:59,439 --> 01:15:03,200
Speaker 2: five stars. And we always forget to tell you, but

1360
01:15:03,400 --> 01:15:05,479
Speaker 2: we do have merch and you can buy it. You

1361
01:15:05,560 --> 01:15:09,400
Speaker 2: can buy t shirts with cools Cult related imagery and

1362
01:15:09,520 --> 01:15:12,479
Speaker 2: slogans on it or it just says trust me on

1363
01:15:12,600 --> 01:15:15,760
Speaker 2: it at bit dot l y slash trust me merch

1364
01:15:16,160 --> 01:15:18,840
Speaker 2: all right, see you next week. Thanks for joining us.

1365
01:15:19,080 --> 01:15:22,640
Speaker 2: As always, remember to follow your gut, watch out for redflex,

1366
01:15:23,000 --> 01:15:30,719
Speaker 2: and never ever trust me bye. Trust Me is produced

1367
01:15:30,720 --> 01:15:33,920
Speaker 2: by Kirsten Woodward, Gabby Rapp and Steve Delemator.

1368
01:15:33,560 --> 01:15:36,120
Speaker 1: With special thanks to Stacy Para and our theme song

1369
01:15:36,240 --> 01:15:38,720
Speaker 1: was composed by Holly amber Church. You can find us

1370
01:15:38,760 --> 01:15:42,280
Speaker 1: on Instagram at trust Me Podcast, Twitter at trust Me

1371
01:15:42,439 --> 01:15:46,160
Speaker 1: Cult Pod, or on TikTok at trust Me Cult Podcast.

1372
01:15:46,360 --> 01:15:49,320
Speaker 2: I'm Ula Lola on Instagram and Ola Lola on Twitter,

1373
01:15:49,439 --> 01:15:49,680
Speaker 2: and I.

1374
01:15:49,760 --> 01:15:54,200
Speaker 1: Am Megan Elizabeth eleven on Instagram and Babraham Hits on Twitter.

1375
01:15:54,400 --> 01:15:56,679
Speaker 2: Remember to rate and review and spread the word.