WEBVTT - Sandra Day O'Connor: the Most Powerful Female Justice

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to the Bloomberg Law Podcast. I'm June Grosso. Every

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<v Speaker 1>day we bring you insight and analysis into the most

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<v Speaker 1>important legal news of the day. You can find more

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<v Speaker 1>episodes of the Bloomberg Law Podcast on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud

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<v Speaker 1>and on Bloomberg dot com slash podcasts. Sandra Day O'Connor

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<v Speaker 1>was the first woman to become a Supreme Court justice.

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<v Speaker 1>Although Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg has eclipsed her in fame,

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<v Speaker 1>O'Connor was the most powerful woman to sit on the Court,

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<v Speaker 1>as the swing vote for more than a quarter of

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<v Speaker 1>a century. A new biography of O'Connor is called First,

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<v Speaker 1>and the author, Evan Thomas, joins me now. Evan O'Connor

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<v Speaker 1>was the swing vote on abortion, affirmative action, Bush v. Gore,

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<v Speaker 1>to name a few. But she wasn't wedded to legal

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<v Speaker 1>doctrines as such. She was more practical. Explain how she

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<v Speaker 1>approached these cases. She was the last justice to have

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<v Speaker 1>actually run for office, how to ask for votes and

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<v Speaker 1>be in the real world of the state legislature and

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<v Speaker 1>in state government, so that that informed her. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>she was from the real world. But she was intensely practical,

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<v Speaker 1>and she always asked herself, what is the impact of

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<v Speaker 1>the decision? Not just you know, what's the doctrine that

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<v Speaker 1>we're enforcing here, but how's this going to play out?

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<v Speaker 1>This is important for her in the two biggies on

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<v Speaker 1>affirmative action and abortion, because in abortion rights she she

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<v Speaker 1>personally found abortion abborn, and yet she was the justice

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<v Speaker 1>who kept abortion rights alive for twenty five years. Affirmative action,

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<v Speaker 1>same thing. She had her doubts about affirmative action, but

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<v Speaker 1>she saw a practical need for it, and she was

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<v Speaker 1>a decisive vote on affirmative action. You write that even

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<v Speaker 1>before the Casey decision, O'Connor told her brother, the abortion

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<v Speaker 1>issue is wearing me down, explained the pressures on her. Well,

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<v Speaker 1>they she's a Reagan appointee and the author of Roe v. Wade,

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<v Speaker 1>the famous abortion decision in the nine thought that she

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<v Speaker 1>was going to be the decisive vote against abortion. In fact,

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<v Speaker 1>he wrote down in a piece of paper, she was

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<v Speaker 1>just again against the abortion. So the expectation was that

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<v Speaker 1>she would vote to reverse. She went the other way

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<v Speaker 1>on that because she was she's a woman, for one thing,

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<v Speaker 1>and and deeply sensitive to the issues that face other women.

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<v Speaker 1>And although she found abortion, something she wouldn't do. She

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<v Speaker 1>wasn't going to take it away from others. What she

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<v Speaker 1>did do is find a compromise saying, yes, there can

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<v Speaker 1>be some state restriction on abortion, but they can't put

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<v Speaker 1>what they call an undue burden on women. It's kind

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<v Speaker 1>of a vague standard cause a lot of litigation, a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of fighting. People are still mad at her from

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<v Speaker 1>both sides. She's trying to work through a very difficult

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<v Speaker 1>societal problem slowly, carefully, piece by piece. She was well

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<v Speaker 1>aware of her place in history as the first female

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<v Speaker 1>Supreme Court justice. How did that affect her work and

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<v Speaker 1>her relationships with the other justices, Well, she knew everybody

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<v Speaker 1>was watching. She used to say, it's good to be first,

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<v Speaker 1>but you don't want to be the last. And she

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<v Speaker 1>she had to perform. She was an intermediate state court judge.

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<v Speaker 1>She was not by moddom standards. She wasn't qualified, but

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<v Speaker 1>there were there just weren't any women Republican judges in

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<v Speaker 1>She was super smart and she caught up fast, in fact,

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<v Speaker 1>within three weeks, just as Pal was writing his family.

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<v Speaker 1>She's brilliant, so she was able to catch up. But

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<v Speaker 1>she knew everybody was watching. She also knew that the

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<v Speaker 1>other some of the other justices did not like her,

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<v Speaker 1>and she had to deal with that, and she did

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<v Speaker 1>it by not picking stupid fights. This is really her

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<v Speaker 1>mantra was, don't you know, stand up when you have to,

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<v Speaker 1>but don't get into fights that are just ego Jeffs.

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<v Speaker 1>And her writing style was not flowery, was also sort

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<v Speaker 1>of practical into the point, was that deliberate? Oh yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>I mean she's actually a beautiful writer. If you read

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<v Speaker 1>her memoir The Lazy b about growing up on this

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<v Speaker 1>cattle ranch, an unbelievable story. She wrests like Wallace Stegner,

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<v Speaker 1>But her opinions were dull, as dishwar They were intentionally boring.

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<v Speaker 1>In fact, when her clerks who drafted the opinions put

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<v Speaker 1>in anything rhetorical or kind of interesting, she take it out.

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<v Speaker 1>She wanted to just just the facts man. And um,

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<v Speaker 1>you write that she disliked her successor, Justice Samuel Alito,

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<v Speaker 1>who is a reliable conservative vote. She said, the last

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<v Speaker 1>thing you needed was a fifth Catholic man on the court.

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<v Speaker 1>Did she think that he was going to destroy her legacy? Ye? Is?

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<v Speaker 1>She worried on these issues that we've talked about on

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<v Speaker 1>abortion rights and affirmative action. He was gonna go the

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<v Speaker 1>other way. So she worried about that. She was not

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<v Speaker 1>somebody ever to bad mouth others, really, and she was

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<v Speaker 1>a little bit discreet about but a little but actually

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<v Speaker 1>surprisingly critical of him, and uh didn't it didn't really

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<v Speaker 1>warmed him personally, and worried that she would he would

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<v Speaker 1>undo her legacy. He hasn't yet, but the court is

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<v Speaker 1>still an evolution. One very sad part is that she

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<v Speaker 1>left the court because her husband had developed Alzheimer's and

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<v Speaker 1>then she regretted that. Explain what happened, well, she left.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, her husband had sacrificed for her when they

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<v Speaker 1>came to Washington. He gave up a big time law practice,

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<v Speaker 1>and she he and then he got Alzheimer's and she

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<v Speaker 1>cared from him as long as she could. She took him,

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<v Speaker 1>took him to her chambers. He would sleep on a

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<v Speaker 1>bench in her front office. But finally it was just

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<v Speaker 1>too much, and so she said, I'm going to leave

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<v Speaker 1>the court to take care of John, to take care

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<v Speaker 1>of He sacrificed for me. Now I am going to

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<v Speaker 1>sacrifice for him. But within six months of leaving the court,

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<v Speaker 1>he could barely recognize her. So she was heartbroken by that,

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<v Speaker 1>and she said it was a mistake to leave the court.

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<v Speaker 1>What's her relationship with the other female justices? Now three more? Well,

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<v Speaker 1>she paid the way Ruth Bader Ginsburg comes twelve years later.

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<v Speaker 1>They were allies. They were not particularly intimate friends. They

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<v Speaker 1>weren't They weren't cozy, but they certainly worked together. Uh.

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<v Speaker 1>She's less of an activist that Justice Ginsburg. But they

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<v Speaker 1>worked on women's rights together. In fact, on a on

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<v Speaker 1>a big one of Virginia Military Academy. Uh. The institute

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<v Speaker 1>case had been assigned to uh to O'Connor, she said, no,

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<v Speaker 1>you should have this one. And Justice Ginsburg said, I

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<v Speaker 1>loved her for that. You know, she wasn't a feminist

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<v Speaker 1>per se, but she was the first many times in

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<v Speaker 1>her life. How did she navigate those waters? It was tricky,

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<v Speaker 1>you know. She was not at all strident. Uh, but

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<v Speaker 1>she wasn't passive either. She knew how to stand up

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<v Speaker 1>to people. She had one particular nemesis, a drunk in

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<v Speaker 1>the Arizona legislature, and she called him on his drinking

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<v Speaker 1>and he said, oh, if you were a man, I'd

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<v Speaker 1>punch you in the nose, and she said, if you

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<v Speaker 1>were a man, you could well beyond. Besides being the

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<v Speaker 1>first woman on the Supreme Court, what else do you

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<v Speaker 1>think she'll be remembered for. She really cared about as

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<v Speaker 1>her legacy something called ice Civics, teaching kids civics through

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<v Speaker 1>video games reaches about six million kids a year now.

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<v Speaker 1>She said that was a more important legacy than the

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<v Speaker 1>Supreme Court. She really cared that. She thought Americans didn't

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<v Speaker 1>know any civics. She really cares about civics and civics engagement.

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<v Speaker 1>She wants to teach kids. That is a legacy. Really,

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<v Speaker 1>she really cares about. We only have a minute here,

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<v Speaker 1>but I remember she did come to Supreme Court arguments

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<v Speaker 1>when one of her cases might have been at stake,

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<v Speaker 1>one of her precedents. Yeah, she she wanted to be seen.

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<v Speaker 1>You know. She was subtle, but she would say to

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<v Speaker 1>other women, you know, be out there. Uh, put on

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<v Speaker 1>a show, make them see you. You know, she could

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<v Speaker 1>be aggressive when she had to be, but she could

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<v Speaker 1>be very polite and careful and non confrontational. She knew

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<v Speaker 1>when to be which one. She knew when to pick

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<v Speaker 1>her fights and when to step back. Thank you so much. Evan.

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<v Speaker 1>It's a great book. It's called First Biography of Sandra

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<v Speaker 1>Day O'Connor, the first female justice on the Supreme Court.

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<v Speaker 1>Thanks for listening to the Bloomberg Law Podcast. You can

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<v Speaker 1>subscribe and listen to the show on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud,

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<v Speaker 1>and on bloomberg dot com slash podcast. I'm June Brosso.

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<v Speaker 1>This is Bloomberg Indult in the und