1 00:00:14,956 --> 00:00:31,836 Speaker 1: Pushkin Hey, Slight Changers. 2 00:00:32,596 --> 00:00:35,916 Speaker 2: So it's only January, but if you're like me, you're 3 00:00:35,916 --> 00:00:40,836 Speaker 2: already feeling pretty overwhelmed by twenty twenty five insert melting 4 00:00:40,876 --> 00:00:44,716 Speaker 2: face emoji. Three weeks in and my Slight Change team 5 00:00:44,716 --> 00:00:49,036 Speaker 2: and I have found ourselves ruminating, feeling despondent, and being 6 00:00:49,076 --> 00:00:52,956 Speaker 2: needlessly self critical. And so we decided to look back 7 00:00:52,956 --> 00:00:56,396 Speaker 2: at the archives and create a special compilation episode for you. 8 00:00:57,196 --> 00:01:01,036 Speaker 2: We're sharing our favorite scientific tools for improving our relationship 9 00:01:01,116 --> 00:01:04,556 Speaker 2: with ourselves and our mental health. Today, we're going to 10 00:01:04,636 --> 00:01:08,196 Speaker 2: hear from three psychologists we've had on the show, Ethan 11 00:01:08,276 --> 00:01:12,956 Speaker 2: cross And on the Science of introspection, Madubey Aquinola, who 12 00:01:12,996 --> 00:01:17,556 Speaker 2: specializes in stress research, and Kristin Nef, a pioneer in 13 00:01:17,596 --> 00:01:21,236 Speaker 2: the science of self compassion. We'll start with Ethan, who 14 00:01:21,316 --> 00:01:25,276 Speaker 2: talks about our inner voice, that internal monologue that often 15 00:01:25,316 --> 00:01:29,116 Speaker 2: serves us so well, but sometimes turns negative and starts 16 00:01:29,116 --> 00:01:33,076 Speaker 2: the spiral out of control. Ethan calls this chatter and 17 00:01:33,116 --> 00:01:36,716 Speaker 2: he shares some valuable tips for reining it in. But 18 00:01:36,876 --> 00:01:39,756 Speaker 2: first he explains why having an inner voice at all 19 00:01:40,156 --> 00:01:43,076 Speaker 2: is actually an incredible feature of our minds. 20 00:01:43,756 --> 00:01:46,676 Speaker 3: I like to think about this inner voice as a 21 00:01:46,756 --> 00:01:49,916 Speaker 3: kind of Swiss army knife of the human mind that 22 00:01:50,156 --> 00:01:53,996 Speaker 3: lets us achieve a number of important things. So, at 23 00:01:54,036 --> 00:01:57,596 Speaker 3: the most basic end of the spectrum, your inner voice 24 00:01:57,716 --> 00:01:59,836 Speaker 3: lets you just keep information active in your heads. This 25 00:01:59,876 --> 00:02:02,676 Speaker 3: may not be the most glamorous feature of it, but my, 26 00:02:02,876 --> 00:02:06,396 Speaker 3: oh my, is it an important one. So if you 27 00:02:06,476 --> 00:02:09,996 Speaker 3: go to the grocery store, for example, and you're like me, 28 00:02:10,716 --> 00:02:12,476 Speaker 3: you know, my wife tells me what we need, and 29 00:02:12,596 --> 00:02:15,676 Speaker 3: thirty seconds later, I forget what those things are. I'm 30 00:02:15,676 --> 00:02:17,836 Speaker 3: walking down the grocery all that I'm thinking to myself 31 00:02:18,116 --> 00:02:20,156 Speaker 3: what do I have to order? And I go over 32 00:02:20,196 --> 00:02:25,716 Speaker 3: the list in my head cheez granola fruit. I'm using 33 00:02:25,756 --> 00:02:29,396 Speaker 3: words silently to repeat those items. It's part of our 34 00:02:29,476 --> 00:02:33,556 Speaker 3: working memory system, basic system of the human mind that 35 00:02:33,956 --> 00:02:37,356 Speaker 3: is fundamental to our ability to navigate the world. 36 00:02:37,756 --> 00:02:39,636 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I love another one you mentioned in your book, 37 00:02:39,676 --> 00:02:42,796 Speaker 2: which is that our inability to escape our minds is 38 00:02:42,836 --> 00:02:46,916 Speaker 2: also a driver of human ingenuity. It's like the fact 39 00:02:46,956 --> 00:02:50,156 Speaker 2: that we can't escape our minds is giving us this 40 00:02:50,276 --> 00:02:53,756 Speaker 2: fertile soil for creative ideas to come into existence. Right, 41 00:02:53,796 --> 00:02:55,916 Speaker 2: I mean those the thoughts you have in the shower 42 00:02:55,956 --> 00:02:58,116 Speaker 2: and you're taking a walk and you don't even notice it, 43 00:02:58,156 --> 00:02:59,756 Speaker 2: but your mind is drifting off and then all of 44 00:02:59,796 --> 00:03:01,916 Speaker 2: a sudden you come up with the new idea. 45 00:03:02,676 --> 00:03:04,636 Speaker 3: Yeah, totally. I mean, I think this is the source 46 00:03:04,676 --> 00:03:08,276 Speaker 3: of human innovation, which is why I think we actually 47 00:03:08,316 --> 00:03:12,876 Speaker 3: want to give our elves latitude to let our introspective 48 00:03:12,916 --> 00:03:17,156 Speaker 3: capacities run wild. So you know, it's interesting. There's some 49 00:03:17,196 --> 00:03:21,596 Speaker 3: research which suggests that we spend between one half and 50 00:03:21,676 --> 00:03:24,756 Speaker 3: one third of our waking hours not focused on the present, 51 00:03:25,396 --> 00:03:29,236 Speaker 3: and sometimes those data are used to suggest that there's 52 00:03:29,276 --> 00:03:32,476 Speaker 3: a huge problem, right because we should always be in 53 00:03:32,516 --> 00:03:37,036 Speaker 3: the present, but this ability to travel in time in 54 00:03:37,076 --> 00:03:39,036 Speaker 3: our minds, so to turn our attention in where to 55 00:03:39,076 --> 00:03:42,716 Speaker 3: think about our past and anticipate the future. This lets 56 00:03:42,756 --> 00:03:44,916 Speaker 3: us do a number of remarkable things. 57 00:03:45,436 --> 00:03:50,036 Speaker 2: When does our inner voice become harmful and transform into 58 00:03:50,076 --> 00:03:50,916 Speaker 2: what you call chatter? 59 00:03:52,236 --> 00:03:57,636 Speaker 3: So it becomes harmful when we experience something in our 60 00:03:57,756 --> 00:04:01,276 Speaker 3: life that cuse us to try to use this tool 61 00:04:01,716 --> 00:04:04,916 Speaker 3: that we have to make sense of our feelings, but 62 00:04:05,156 --> 00:04:08,116 Speaker 3: the tool gets jammed up, so something bad happens. We 63 00:04:08,156 --> 00:04:09,796 Speaker 3: turn our attention in word to try to make sense 64 00:04:09,796 --> 00:04:11,796 Speaker 3: of the problem, but we get stuck in a negative 65 00:04:11,836 --> 00:04:14,876 Speaker 3: thought loop. That's what I call chatter. You keep on 66 00:04:15,036 --> 00:04:17,716 Speaker 3: trying to think and work through the problem, but you 67 00:04:17,756 --> 00:04:20,516 Speaker 3: don't make any progress. And there are lots of different 68 00:04:20,636 --> 00:04:24,996 Speaker 3: terms that scientists have used to describe this state. If 69 00:04:25,036 --> 00:04:28,316 Speaker 3: it's chatter about the past, we tend to call that ruminating. 70 00:04:28,396 --> 00:04:31,836 Speaker 3: If it's about the future or present, we call that worrying. 71 00:04:32,436 --> 00:04:36,356 Speaker 3: Sometimes we call it perseverating. But the common idea here 72 00:04:36,516 --> 00:04:40,796 Speaker 3: is you're trying to make sense of a problem with language, 73 00:04:41,156 --> 00:04:44,676 Speaker 3: but you're not making any forward progress. It's kind of 74 00:04:44,716 --> 00:04:47,436 Speaker 3: like the visual is one of a hamster on an 75 00:04:47,436 --> 00:04:48,316 Speaker 3: exercise wheel. 76 00:04:50,156 --> 00:04:53,756 Speaker 2: We fall prey to this illusion when we're actively repeating 77 00:04:54,156 --> 00:04:56,276 Speaker 2: those loops in our mind, that we are actually making 78 00:04:56,396 --> 00:05:01,516 Speaker 2: progress because just merely indulging in that topic, right, like 79 00:05:01,636 --> 00:05:04,996 Speaker 2: staying in that space. I think it fools our brains 80 00:05:05,036 --> 00:05:09,516 Speaker 2: into thinking, ah, I am in fact advancing because look 81 00:05:09,516 --> 00:05:11,916 Speaker 2: at how much airtime this topic is getting in my mind. 82 00:05:12,036 --> 00:05:13,836 Speaker 1: And then only maybe. 83 00:05:13,636 --> 00:05:16,676 Speaker 2: Hours later, do you realize, oh crap, I'm in exactly 84 00:05:16,716 --> 00:05:18,956 Speaker 2: the same position that I was in at the beginning. 85 00:05:19,396 --> 00:05:23,196 Speaker 3: Well, and think about how much experience you have succeeding 86 00:05:23,396 --> 00:05:25,836 Speaker 3: in the usage of this tool. Like most of the time, 87 00:05:26,476 --> 00:05:30,156 Speaker 3: this tool, this ability to use language to think analytically 88 00:05:30,196 --> 00:05:33,796 Speaker 3: about a problem, it serves you really really will. I mean, 89 00:05:33,836 --> 00:05:37,356 Speaker 3: this is undoubtedly why you have been able to achieve 90 00:05:37,396 --> 00:05:40,356 Speaker 3: the things that you have accomplished in your life. And 91 00:05:40,636 --> 00:05:42,436 Speaker 3: the same is true for so many other people. So 92 00:05:43,076 --> 00:05:46,676 Speaker 3: you've got this tool that often works really really well. 93 00:05:46,716 --> 00:05:50,116 Speaker 3: It should work here it's not working. I'm not a 94 00:05:50,436 --> 00:05:52,436 Speaker 3: I don't give up. I'm going to keep going. 95 00:05:52,716 --> 00:05:56,396 Speaker 2: Yeah. Can you say more about how that inner monologue 96 00:05:56,436 --> 00:05:58,636 Speaker 2: can lead us astray in these moments or what the 97 00:05:58,676 --> 00:05:59,956 Speaker 2: negative consequences can be? 98 00:06:00,956 --> 00:06:05,476 Speaker 3: Yeah, happy to So, first, chatter consumes our attention to 99 00:06:05,556 --> 00:06:08,556 Speaker 3: the point where we have very little left over to 100 00:06:08,636 --> 00:06:10,636 Speaker 3: focus on other things. And so the example I like 101 00:06:10,676 --> 00:06:13,716 Speaker 3: to give people is to think about a time when 102 00:06:13,756 --> 00:06:15,676 Speaker 3: you're worried about something, you're ruminating, and you sit down, 103 00:06:15,716 --> 00:06:17,036 Speaker 3: you try to read a couple of pages in a 104 00:06:17,036 --> 00:06:19,716 Speaker 3: book or a magazine, and you read the pages. You 105 00:06:19,796 --> 00:06:23,516 Speaker 3: are sure, like under oath, you would swear that the 106 00:06:23,596 --> 00:06:27,196 Speaker 3: information has passed your gaze, but you don't remember anything 107 00:06:27,236 --> 00:06:30,356 Speaker 3: that you have read. It is an incredibly common experience, 108 00:06:30,396 --> 00:06:33,716 Speaker 3: and the idea is very very simple. We only have 109 00:06:33,796 --> 00:06:36,796 Speaker 3: so much attention. If all of it is being consumed 110 00:06:36,796 --> 00:06:39,196 Speaker 3: by your chatter, that means not much is left over 111 00:06:39,316 --> 00:06:42,596 Speaker 3: to do your job. Not a good thing. We also 112 00:06:42,676 --> 00:06:46,436 Speaker 3: know that chatter can undo our habits. And the way 113 00:06:46,476 --> 00:06:50,396 Speaker 3: this works is like what is a habit? A habit 114 00:06:50,476 --> 00:06:54,596 Speaker 3: is a complex set of behaviors that are strung together 115 00:06:54,676 --> 00:06:57,996 Speaker 3: through repeated practice. So when I get up on stage 116 00:06:57,996 --> 00:07:01,076 Speaker 3: to give a presentation, I've given hundreds and hundreds of talks. 117 00:07:01,836 --> 00:07:04,276 Speaker 3: I've learned to do things without thinking, like to move 118 00:07:04,316 --> 00:07:07,196 Speaker 3: my hands in particular ways, and vary my vocal tone, 119 00:07:07,316 --> 00:07:10,396 Speaker 3: and smile and look at different people in the audience. 120 00:07:11,076 --> 00:07:14,796 Speaker 3: If I start to worry about what I'm doing, oh 121 00:07:14,836 --> 00:07:17,916 Speaker 3: my god, am I giving a good presentation? What happens 122 00:07:17,956 --> 00:07:21,436 Speaker 3: is I zoom in on all the individual behaviors. Am 123 00:07:21,436 --> 00:07:22,316 Speaker 3: I smiling enough? 124 00:07:22,436 --> 00:07:22,836 Speaker 1: Yeah? 125 00:07:23,436 --> 00:07:25,876 Speaker 3: Am I using the stage appropriately? And once you start 126 00:07:25,956 --> 00:07:30,236 Speaker 3: doing that, the whole script explodes, the behavior explodes. You 127 00:07:30,236 --> 00:07:33,276 Speaker 3: don't do well. And we saw this happen on the 128 00:07:33,316 --> 00:07:36,996 Speaker 3: grandest stage in the Olympics, when Simone Biles dropped out 129 00:07:37,036 --> 00:07:40,196 Speaker 3: because of what she called the twisties. The twisties are 130 00:07:40,236 --> 00:07:44,156 Speaker 3: another name for chatter. Sometimes they're called the yips and 131 00:07:44,156 --> 00:07:47,916 Speaker 3: and if you think about Simone's situation, I think it 132 00:07:48,076 --> 00:07:52,676 Speaker 3: really highlights just how toxic this can be. Here you 133 00:07:52,756 --> 00:07:57,716 Speaker 3: have someone who is on the peak. You know, she's 134 00:07:57,716 --> 00:07:59,836 Speaker 3: at the peak of her career, on the grandest stage. 135 00:08:00,116 --> 00:08:03,196 Speaker 2: Yeah, and she appropriate best in human history as well. 136 00:08:03,196 --> 00:08:05,956 Speaker 3: Best in human history, and she has to drop out 137 00:08:05,996 --> 00:08:09,436 Speaker 3: appropriately because it was dangerous. And so that's what chatter 138 00:08:09,516 --> 00:08:13,076 Speaker 3: can do to us when it comes to our individual performance. 139 00:08:14,396 --> 00:08:16,676 Speaker 3: If we shift to the second domain, we know that 140 00:08:16,796 --> 00:08:20,436 Speaker 3: chatter undermines our relationships. It can create friction, and there 141 00:08:20,436 --> 00:08:23,156 Speaker 3: are a couple of ways that works too. One thing 142 00:08:23,196 --> 00:08:26,356 Speaker 3: that that chatter can do is it can push other 143 00:08:26,396 --> 00:08:28,956 Speaker 3: people who care about us away. And here are the ideas. 144 00:08:29,276 --> 00:08:33,156 Speaker 3: You've got a problem and you're motivated to share it 145 00:08:33,196 --> 00:08:35,716 Speaker 3: with other people for a variety of reasons. You want 146 00:08:35,756 --> 00:08:38,836 Speaker 3: to get support. But what happens is you talk to 147 00:08:38,836 --> 00:08:41,316 Speaker 3: the other person about the problem, and then you keep 148 00:08:41,356 --> 00:08:44,956 Speaker 3: talking about it over and over and over again. And 149 00:08:45,196 --> 00:08:47,436 Speaker 3: for most of us, there's only so much we can 150 00:08:47,516 --> 00:08:52,276 Speaker 3: listen to before we ourselves start to get brought down. 151 00:08:52,796 --> 00:08:55,316 Speaker 3: And so that's one of the ways that that chatter 152 00:08:55,356 --> 00:08:57,916 Speaker 3: can alienate us from others lead us to feel socially 153 00:08:57,956 --> 00:09:02,676 Speaker 3: rejected and alone. These are not not healthy states. 154 00:09:03,196 --> 00:09:07,716 Speaker 2: Okay, so we need some hope, Ethan. You got to 155 00:09:07,716 --> 00:09:09,796 Speaker 2: help us out here, all right. I'd love to do 156 00:09:09,836 --> 00:09:11,836 Speaker 2: a deep dive in some of the strategies we can 157 00:09:11,956 --> 00:09:13,476 Speaker 2: use for better managing our chatter. 158 00:09:13,796 --> 00:09:14,156 Speaker 1: Yeah. 159 00:09:14,436 --> 00:09:17,476 Speaker 3: So I'll tell you about two of my favorites, which 160 00:09:17,996 --> 00:09:21,956 Speaker 3: also happen to be two tools that I use myself 161 00:09:22,036 --> 00:09:24,836 Speaker 3: if I experienced shadow. They're my first lines of defense. 162 00:09:25,156 --> 00:09:25,636 Speaker 1: I love it. 163 00:09:26,356 --> 00:09:31,356 Speaker 3: The first one is maybe counterintuitive to folks. What it 164 00:09:31,436 --> 00:09:36,076 Speaker 3: involves doing is trying to coach yourself through a problem 165 00:09:36,556 --> 00:09:39,916 Speaker 3: using your own name or the second person pronound you. So, 166 00:09:39,996 --> 00:09:44,716 Speaker 3: if I'm really upset about something and spinning, all right, Ethan, 167 00:09:45,276 --> 00:09:46,956 Speaker 3: here's what you're going to do. Here's how you're going 168 00:09:46,996 --> 00:09:51,596 Speaker 3: to manage the situation. I'm basically talking to myself like 169 00:09:51,636 --> 00:09:54,956 Speaker 3: I would speak to another person, right, the second person 170 00:09:55,036 --> 00:09:57,516 Speaker 3: pronound you. This is a part of speech that we 171 00:09:57,636 --> 00:10:01,516 Speaker 3: almost exclusively use when we think about and refer to 172 00:10:01,596 --> 00:10:05,316 Speaker 3: other people. That shifts your perspective. It puts you into 173 00:10:05,356 --> 00:10:07,956 Speaker 3: this different mode of thinking about your problems. It's like 174 00:10:07,956 --> 00:10:10,556 Speaker 3: you're giving advice to your best fri and when you're 175 00:10:10,596 --> 00:10:14,076 Speaker 3: in that mode of advice giving, you come up with 176 00:10:14,196 --> 00:10:17,516 Speaker 3: much better solutions to your problems. So that's a really 177 00:10:17,556 --> 00:10:21,116 Speaker 3: simple thing that people can do to switch their perspectives. 178 00:10:21,116 --> 00:10:24,236 Speaker 3: And that's the first thing that I'll do. Another distancing 179 00:10:24,316 --> 00:10:27,596 Speaker 3: tool that is really easy and works for many situations 180 00:10:27,636 --> 00:10:32,156 Speaker 3: is something that we call temporal distancing, or thinking about 181 00:10:32,156 --> 00:10:35,516 Speaker 3: how you're going to feel about something that's causing you 182 00:10:35,596 --> 00:10:37,356 Speaker 3: chatter right now? How are you going to feel about 183 00:10:37,356 --> 00:10:40,236 Speaker 3: this a week from now, or a month from now 184 00:10:40,396 --> 00:10:42,756 Speaker 3: or a year from now. Right, You could stretch out 185 00:10:42,796 --> 00:10:46,116 Speaker 3: the time window as much as you want. What engaging 186 00:10:46,156 --> 00:10:49,996 Speaker 3: in that little mental time travel exercise does for us 187 00:10:50,316 --> 00:10:53,436 Speaker 3: is it often makes clear that whatever we're dealing with, 188 00:10:53,476 --> 00:10:57,236 Speaker 3: as awful as it is, it will eventually fade, because 189 00:10:57,356 --> 00:11:00,996 Speaker 3: most of the trials and tribulations we experience do eventually 190 00:11:01,036 --> 00:11:04,196 Speaker 3: fade with time, and that gives us hope, which is 191 00:11:04,516 --> 00:11:07,396 Speaker 3: really useful for managing chatter. This is actually what I 192 00:11:07,436 --> 00:11:10,436 Speaker 3: do when I wake up on occasion two am and 193 00:11:11,196 --> 00:11:14,436 Speaker 3: am grippe, Oh my god, why did I send that email? 194 00:11:14,476 --> 00:11:15,436 Speaker 3: And what are they going to think? 195 00:11:15,476 --> 00:11:15,996 Speaker 4: Did they read? 196 00:11:16,356 --> 00:11:19,996 Speaker 3: So I will just remind myself Ethan, You're going to 197 00:11:20,036 --> 00:11:21,636 Speaker 3: feel better about this in six hours. 198 00:11:22,636 --> 00:11:24,836 Speaker 2: I'm hearing you say that, and I'm thinking to myself that, 199 00:11:24,876 --> 00:11:27,356 Speaker 2: in my most anxious moments, if you had asked me, 200 00:11:27,996 --> 00:11:30,676 Speaker 2: how are you going to feel about this in six months, 201 00:11:30,756 --> 00:11:32,956 Speaker 2: or five years, or ten years, I would have said, 202 00:11:33,276 --> 00:11:35,916 Speaker 2: I'm going to feel exactly the same damn way, Ethan. 203 00:11:36,316 --> 00:11:38,196 Speaker 2: And so what's occurring to me in this moment is 204 00:11:38,196 --> 00:11:42,516 Speaker 2: that potentially another healthful thought experiment is to think about 205 00:11:42,596 --> 00:11:45,756 Speaker 2: past experiences where we felt a certain way and we're 206 00:11:45,836 --> 00:11:49,036 Speaker 2: absolutely convinced that that was going to be a immutable 207 00:11:49,036 --> 00:11:51,796 Speaker 2: state of the world, but looking back, we now know 208 00:11:51,916 --> 00:11:53,916 Speaker 2: we no longer feel that same way about it today. 209 00:11:55,156 --> 00:11:57,756 Speaker 2: I'm just remembering how there was this thing that I 210 00:11:57,796 --> 00:12:00,556 Speaker 2: was worrying about in my early twenties, and I was 211 00:12:01,196 --> 00:12:03,596 Speaker 2: imposing a lot of negativity of my brother, who was 212 00:12:03,596 --> 00:12:06,796 Speaker 2: on the receiving end of all this anxiety to your 213 00:12:06,836 --> 00:12:10,796 Speaker 2: earlier point, and I remember him saying, I promise you, 214 00:12:10,916 --> 00:12:12,556 Speaker 2: this is not going to be a topic you're worried 215 00:12:12,556 --> 00:12:15,196 Speaker 2: about in ten years. And I was absolutely resolute in 216 00:12:15,196 --> 00:12:17,036 Speaker 2: my convictions that it was going to be something that 217 00:12:17,076 --> 00:12:20,836 Speaker 2: I continue to worry about and you know, older brother, 218 00:12:20,956 --> 00:12:21,596 Speaker 2: wiser than me. 219 00:12:21,996 --> 00:12:22,476 Speaker 1: He's right. 220 00:12:22,716 --> 00:12:25,476 Speaker 2: I no longer am worried about this issue, and I 221 00:12:25,756 --> 00:12:28,836 Speaker 2: keep that in my mind often as a personal anecdote 222 00:12:29,316 --> 00:12:33,836 Speaker 2: of how I engaged in bad cognitive forecasting. I was 223 00:12:33,916 --> 00:12:36,516 Speaker 2: wrong about myself and my own ability to be able 224 00:12:36,596 --> 00:12:39,196 Speaker 2: to move on from certain challenges or anxieties. And I 225 00:12:39,236 --> 00:12:42,836 Speaker 2: think it's helpful, potentially helpful for listeners to identify. You know, 226 00:12:42,876 --> 00:12:45,156 Speaker 2: there's the Spanish flu, which is like the global thing, 227 00:12:45,276 --> 00:12:48,916 Speaker 2: but you know, we all have some element of narcissism 228 00:12:48,996 --> 00:12:52,156 Speaker 2: in us that leads us to want to know that actually. 229 00:12:51,996 --> 00:12:53,196 Speaker 1: Narcissm is the wrong word here. 230 00:12:53,236 --> 00:12:57,636 Speaker 2: I think we can feel sometimes like society might be 231 00:12:57,676 --> 00:12:59,796 Speaker 2: able to deal with this, but I maya won't be 232 00:12:59,836 --> 00:13:02,556 Speaker 2: able to because I'm not as cognitively strong as other people. 233 00:13:02,556 --> 00:13:03,796 Speaker 2: And so I think it can be helpful to just 234 00:13:03,836 --> 00:13:07,756 Speaker 2: find even one instance, one case study from your own 235 00:13:07,796 --> 00:13:11,276 Speaker 2: life where you did actually exit a state of mental 236 00:13:11,356 --> 00:13:14,436 Speaker 2: chatter successfully and think differently about it so that you 237 00:13:14,436 --> 00:13:16,716 Speaker 2: can hold on to because it helps me in present 238 00:13:16,756 --> 00:13:18,236 Speaker 2: day moments where I'm like, no, I'm still gonna be 239 00:13:18,276 --> 00:13:20,436 Speaker 2: worried about this thing now in ten years, and I'm 240 00:13:20,476 --> 00:13:22,596 Speaker 2: like eh, you're wrong about this, at least once. 241 00:13:23,916 --> 00:13:27,516 Speaker 3: You've actually touched on something that is. I think another 242 00:13:27,556 --> 00:13:30,636 Speaker 3: message of hope for listeners, which is there's a lot 243 00:13:30,636 --> 00:13:32,676 Speaker 3: of research which shows that as we get older, we 244 00:13:32,756 --> 00:13:36,676 Speaker 3: actually get happier barring negative health conditions. And one of 245 00:13:36,676 --> 00:13:39,796 Speaker 3: the explanations for why that happens is we're learning how 246 00:13:39,836 --> 00:13:42,956 Speaker 3: to regulate ourselves better. And part of how that works 247 00:13:43,036 --> 00:13:45,316 Speaker 3: is we're learning from our experiences. And I think this 248 00:13:45,356 --> 00:13:48,396 Speaker 3: is exactly what you've described. When you're younger, you don't 249 00:13:48,396 --> 00:13:52,556 Speaker 3: have the same quantity of experiences. You don't know that 250 00:13:52,876 --> 00:13:54,716 Speaker 3: you're not going to be worried about this ten years 251 00:13:54,796 --> 00:13:57,956 Speaker 3: later because you may not have been around for that long. 252 00:13:57,996 --> 00:14:01,716 Speaker 3: And so I think we accrue that wisdom with age. 253 00:14:01,876 --> 00:14:06,316 Speaker 3: And what's exciting about some of these tools is they 254 00:14:06,356 --> 00:14:10,316 Speaker 3: have the potential to give us that insight without having 255 00:14:10,356 --> 00:14:14,676 Speaker 3: to wait to be forty sixty, seventy years old, right, 256 00:14:14,716 --> 00:14:16,516 Speaker 3: So we can have the insight that, oh, wait, it 257 00:14:16,556 --> 00:14:20,276 Speaker 3: will get better with time without having to wait the 258 00:14:20,276 --> 00:14:23,316 Speaker 3: whole stretch of time for that to happen. So it's 259 00:14:23,316 --> 00:14:25,876 Speaker 3: a really valuable exercise for folks to think about. 260 00:14:27,356 --> 00:14:30,916 Speaker 2: That was psychologist Ethan Cross. I'll be talking to Ethan 261 00:14:30,956 --> 00:14:33,756 Speaker 2: again about his latest book, which is all about how 262 00:14:33,796 --> 00:14:36,996 Speaker 2: to better manage our emotions. Make sure to follow a 263 00:14:36,996 --> 00:14:39,836 Speaker 2: slight change of plans on your favorite podcast app so 264 00:14:39,876 --> 00:14:42,476 Speaker 2: you can catch that episode when it comes out next month. 265 00:14:44,836 --> 00:14:47,956 Speaker 2: After the break, we'll hear from Madupey Aquinola on how 266 00:14:47,996 --> 00:14:51,116 Speaker 2: we can work with our stress rather than against it. 267 00:14:59,916 --> 00:15:03,596 Speaker 2: Madupay Aquinola is a psychologist who's an expert on something 268 00:15:03,676 --> 00:15:07,716 Speaker 2: that most of us try to limit as much as possible, stress, 269 00:15:08,316 --> 00:15:11,996 Speaker 2: but a different perspective. She wants us to make stress 270 00:15:12,076 --> 00:15:15,916 Speaker 2: our friend because our body's stress response is actually a 271 00:15:15,996 --> 00:15:20,116 Speaker 2: kind of superpower on a physiological level. Can you tell 272 00:15:20,196 --> 00:15:23,076 Speaker 2: us what happens to us when we experience stress? 273 00:15:23,516 --> 00:15:29,036 Speaker 4: So when we experience stress, our sympathetic nervous system gets activated. 274 00:15:29,716 --> 00:15:32,756 Speaker 4: It's that part of our body that tells us do 275 00:15:32,796 --> 00:15:34,836 Speaker 4: you need to fight or do you need to flee 276 00:15:34,876 --> 00:15:39,756 Speaker 4: this situation? And when that happens, we get adrenaline, we 277 00:15:39,836 --> 00:15:44,636 Speaker 4: get dopamine, we get cortisol, all of the resources we 278 00:15:44,716 --> 00:15:48,916 Speaker 4: need physiologically to move to act to do what we 279 00:15:48,996 --> 00:15:52,996 Speaker 4: need to do. This process is a very adaptive one, 280 00:15:53,076 --> 00:15:55,876 Speaker 4: so that when you're done with the stressor ideally your 281 00:15:55,876 --> 00:15:59,076 Speaker 4: body wants to go back to its resting state where 282 00:15:59,116 --> 00:16:02,476 Speaker 4: you know, those hormones decrease, that adrenaline decreased, you get 283 00:16:02,516 --> 00:16:05,396 Speaker 4: back to resting and relaxing and all that. That is 284 00:16:05,476 --> 00:16:09,556 Speaker 4: a normal physiological response to an acute dresser. 285 00:16:10,876 --> 00:16:13,556 Speaker 2: Yeah, I love your sharing that because stress obviously gets 286 00:16:13,556 --> 00:16:16,676 Speaker 2: a really bad rep but it's not just this random 287 00:16:16,756 --> 00:16:19,516 Speaker 2: bad thing that our bodies experience. It exists in part 288 00:16:19,596 --> 00:16:23,796 Speaker 2: because it is highly adaptive and there are many situations 289 00:16:23,836 --> 00:16:26,836 Speaker 2: in which an active stress response helps us do what 290 00:16:26,916 --> 00:16:31,916 Speaker 2: needs to be done. So, in other words, you mentioned cortisol, dopamine, adrenaline. 291 00:16:32,156 --> 00:16:36,756 Speaker 2: How do those translate into increased performance increased acuity? Just 292 00:16:36,796 --> 00:16:38,276 Speaker 2: help me build that bridge. 293 00:16:38,476 --> 00:16:42,436 Speaker 4: So essentially, your body is being taxed and your heart 294 00:16:42,516 --> 00:16:46,556 Speaker 4: rate is increasing because again you're getting ready. That cortisol 295 00:16:46,636 --> 00:16:49,396 Speaker 4: is giving you the energy that you need to be attentive, 296 00:16:49,756 --> 00:16:53,916 Speaker 4: to be focused to approach the situation. And when you 297 00:16:53,916 --> 00:16:57,036 Speaker 4: have increased cortisol, you are attentive to threats, often in 298 00:16:57,076 --> 00:16:59,956 Speaker 4: a good way. You're like waiting for what's happening. You're 299 00:17:00,196 --> 00:17:03,036 Speaker 4: able to remember things in a different way, and so 300 00:17:03,516 --> 00:17:06,836 Speaker 4: we need to remember when our bodies are acting. It's 301 00:17:06,916 --> 00:17:11,396 Speaker 4: telling us you've got this, now, let's use this. But 302 00:17:11,516 --> 00:17:15,516 Speaker 4: one of the problems is when we can be overactivated 303 00:17:15,836 --> 00:17:20,276 Speaker 4: and too attentive to threat and those levels of the dopamine, 304 00:17:20,276 --> 00:17:24,236 Speaker 4: the cordis the adrenaline all that are staying elevated kind 305 00:17:24,236 --> 00:17:28,796 Speaker 4: of chronically, and that is what leads to disease and 306 00:17:28,956 --> 00:17:31,756 Speaker 4: all of these problems that we want to avoid physiologically. 307 00:17:31,996 --> 00:17:33,756 Speaker 4: So that's kind of the stress cycle. 308 00:17:34,556 --> 00:17:36,196 Speaker 2: Okay, So now you've given us the lay of the 309 00:17:36,276 --> 00:17:40,036 Speaker 2: land on the basics of stress. Yes, one fascinating thing 310 00:17:40,316 --> 00:17:44,276 Speaker 2: your research focuses on is that how we think about 311 00:17:44,316 --> 00:17:47,556 Speaker 2: our own stress, our mindset, and our attitude towards stress 312 00:17:48,036 --> 00:17:50,956 Speaker 2: can actually change its impact on us. Yes, can you 313 00:17:50,996 --> 00:17:53,916 Speaker 2: first walk us through the two types of mindsets that 314 00:17:53,956 --> 00:17:55,196 Speaker 2: we can have towards stress. 315 00:17:55,756 --> 00:17:58,396 Speaker 4: So the two types of mindsets are a mindset that 316 00:17:58,436 --> 00:18:01,876 Speaker 4: stress is enhancing, it can help us in terms of 317 00:18:01,916 --> 00:18:07,036 Speaker 4: our performance, our growth, our learning. The second piece is 318 00:18:07,076 --> 00:18:10,516 Speaker 4: that stress is debilitating, harms us in terms of our 319 00:18:10,596 --> 00:18:13,476 Speaker 4: health and vitality and our performance and our growth in 320 00:18:13,516 --> 00:18:18,156 Speaker 4: our learning. And it's often your mindset about stress that 321 00:18:18,196 --> 00:18:21,076 Speaker 4: can influence the extent to which it can have harmful 322 00:18:21,156 --> 00:18:24,596 Speaker 4: or helpful effects. So when we have more of a 323 00:18:24,676 --> 00:18:29,036 Speaker 4: stress is enhancing mindset that leads to better outcomes. 324 00:18:29,676 --> 00:18:31,036 Speaker 1: I love this research. 325 00:18:31,276 --> 00:18:33,396 Speaker 2: I'm wondering if you can give me a couple of 326 00:18:33,436 --> 00:18:38,036 Speaker 2: examples of how introducing this mindset shift was actually able 327 00:18:38,036 --> 00:18:39,996 Speaker 2: to help performance in different contexts. 328 00:18:40,236 --> 00:18:44,076 Speaker 4: So in one study, we had people just watch a 329 00:18:44,156 --> 00:18:47,836 Speaker 4: video showing the many ways in which stress can be enhancing. 330 00:18:48,076 --> 00:18:50,996 Speaker 4: You can imagine things like that stressful moment in a 331 00:18:51,076 --> 00:18:54,196 Speaker 4: soccer game and somebody makes the goal. We can each 332 00:18:54,236 --> 00:18:56,356 Speaker 4: think of times when we have risen to the occasion. 333 00:18:56,716 --> 00:18:59,796 Speaker 4: When we show people these videos and then have them 334 00:18:59,836 --> 00:19:03,436 Speaker 4: engage in a creative task, we find that they're more creative. 335 00:19:03,836 --> 00:19:06,396 Speaker 4: We find that they are more attentive to positive things 336 00:19:06,476 --> 00:19:10,276 Speaker 4: in the environment versus negative things in the vironment. On 337 00:19:10,316 --> 00:19:13,116 Speaker 4: the flip side, tell people or show them videos of 338 00:19:13,316 --> 00:19:16,716 Speaker 4: when stress can be debilitating and see the opposite, they're 339 00:19:16,836 --> 00:19:22,516 Speaker 4: less creative and also generally more negative mood, more attentive 340 00:19:22,556 --> 00:19:25,516 Speaker 4: to threats. So that's some of the research we've done. 341 00:19:25,676 --> 00:19:28,356 Speaker 2: Yeah, and one of the most fascinating insights is that 342 00:19:28,916 --> 00:19:32,516 Speaker 2: our underlying physiology can change when we adopt a stress 343 00:19:32,556 --> 00:19:35,676 Speaker 2: is enhancing mindset. So it's not just that I think 344 00:19:35,756 --> 00:19:39,396 Speaker 2: more positive thoughts. It actually can affect our physiological response 345 00:19:39,436 --> 00:19:41,596 Speaker 2: to stress at this underlying level. 346 00:19:42,036 --> 00:19:44,796 Speaker 4: I think that that's absolutely right, that when you have 347 00:19:44,876 --> 00:19:48,956 Speaker 4: an enhancing mindset, it can affect your body's response to stress. 348 00:19:49,436 --> 00:19:52,636 Speaker 4: There has been research showing that the walls of your 349 00:19:52,636 --> 00:19:56,636 Speaker 4: blood vessels, rather than constricting, they're more likely to dilate 350 00:19:56,756 --> 00:20:00,236 Speaker 4: with a stress is enhancing mindset and the importance of 351 00:20:00,276 --> 00:20:03,596 Speaker 4: the mind body connection is something I think we often forget. 352 00:20:03,916 --> 00:20:06,596 Speaker 4: And you know, our dominant model and narrative is that 353 00:20:06,636 --> 00:20:11,556 Speaker 4: we should deny, reduce and avoid stress, and that is 354 00:20:11,716 --> 00:20:15,756 Speaker 4: not always the case. Every single person I know can 355 00:20:15,796 --> 00:20:20,076 Speaker 4: tell of the time where their stress helps them. So instead, 356 00:20:20,116 --> 00:20:21,876 Speaker 4: in this research we talk a lot about how can 357 00:20:22,076 --> 00:20:25,716 Speaker 4: you acknowledge your stress, welcome your stress, and use it 358 00:20:25,796 --> 00:20:28,676 Speaker 4: in a way that will be beneficial because it is 359 00:20:28,836 --> 00:20:31,956 Speaker 4: designed to help you. Now, it's important to say, I'm 360 00:20:31,956 --> 00:20:34,916 Speaker 4: not saying run towards stress, like you shouldn't like find 361 00:20:34,996 --> 00:20:38,396 Speaker 4: more stressors. No, that's not what we're saying. We're saying 362 00:20:39,036 --> 00:20:41,396 Speaker 4: it's not always a bad thing. It's actually designed to 363 00:20:41,436 --> 00:20:41,796 Speaker 4: help you. 364 00:20:43,076 --> 00:20:46,436 Speaker 2: Yeah, you talk about dating your stress, Yes, you know 365 00:20:46,516 --> 00:20:49,316 Speaker 2: slight change listeners. We're simply asking for a first date. Okay, 366 00:20:49,316 --> 00:20:50,956 Speaker 2: you can decide if you want to do a second 367 00:20:51,036 --> 00:20:52,836 Speaker 2: or a third, but just go on that first date. 368 00:20:52,956 --> 00:20:53,756 Speaker 4: That's right. 369 00:20:53,996 --> 00:20:56,236 Speaker 1: Get to know your stress a little better and brace 370 00:20:56,276 --> 00:20:56,636 Speaker 1: it and. 371 00:20:56,636 --> 00:20:59,436 Speaker 4: Be kind to it. Open the door for it, you know, 372 00:20:59,636 --> 00:21:03,196 Speaker 4: let it in, welcome it, see how it feels. That's 373 00:21:03,196 --> 00:21:04,956 Speaker 4: what we need to do a lot more of. 374 00:21:05,756 --> 00:21:09,076 Speaker 2: Are there situations where applying a stress is enhancing mind 375 00:21:09,236 --> 00:21:13,076 Speaker 2: set doesn't make sense because I can see a situation 376 00:21:13,156 --> 00:21:16,516 Speaker 2: where if we apply this mindset too liberally, we might 377 00:21:16,636 --> 00:21:20,316 Speaker 2: end up tolerating certain stressful situations that we really should 378 00:21:20,356 --> 00:21:24,516 Speaker 2: try and avoid. So, for example, a highly toxic relationship 379 00:21:24,596 --> 00:21:26,756 Speaker 2: at work or in your personal life, that's a situation 380 00:21:26,796 --> 00:21:29,156 Speaker 2: where you're kind of you really think, okay, we need 381 00:21:29,196 --> 00:21:31,036 Speaker 2: to change the situation. I need to get out of 382 00:21:31,036 --> 00:21:34,116 Speaker 2: this situation, versus using a mindset shift in order to 383 00:21:34,116 --> 00:21:34,996 Speaker 2: better adapt to it. 384 00:21:35,036 --> 00:21:36,036 Speaker 1: So do you have thoughts on that? 385 00:21:36,516 --> 00:21:40,476 Speaker 4: Yeah? I do think that our minds are so complicated 386 00:21:40,516 --> 00:21:43,316 Speaker 4: and we will trick ourselves into believing a stressful situation 387 00:21:43,436 --> 00:21:45,836 Speaker 4: is a good one when it's not. So that's when 388 00:21:45,876 --> 00:21:49,076 Speaker 4: the idea, Remember I talked about demands resources. One resource 389 00:21:49,116 --> 00:21:52,876 Speaker 4: is external support, your friends helping you and seeing when 390 00:21:52,916 --> 00:21:55,396 Speaker 4: something is harmful versus helpful for you. 391 00:21:55,996 --> 00:21:57,876 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's helpful to clarify that this is 392 00:21:57,916 --> 00:22:00,396 Speaker 2: a mindset that's almost best to adopt when you're in 393 00:22:00,476 --> 00:22:03,036 Speaker 2: situations where you can't avoid the stress, so you can't 394 00:22:03,076 --> 00:22:07,196 Speaker 2: control whether that situation exists or not, and so adopting 395 00:22:07,196 --> 00:22:09,636 Speaker 2: a more positive mindset might be one of the few 396 00:22:09,676 --> 00:22:10,596 Speaker 2: resources at hand. 397 00:22:10,876 --> 00:22:14,076 Speaker 4: That's absolutely right. And the challenge with the dominant narrative 398 00:22:14,156 --> 00:22:16,876 Speaker 4: about reducing or avoiding stress is that there are times 399 00:22:16,876 --> 00:22:20,916 Speaker 4: where we cannot do that. You can't, it's not possible. 400 00:22:21,116 --> 00:22:25,156 Speaker 4: So that's why it's important to understand how the stress 401 00:22:25,196 --> 00:22:29,196 Speaker 4: that you're experiencing or how your body's response can be helpful. 402 00:22:29,596 --> 00:22:31,716 Speaker 1: How do we learn to cultivate this mindset? 403 00:22:32,516 --> 00:22:34,996 Speaker 4: So a piece of this goes back to that, how 404 00:22:35,036 --> 00:22:38,956 Speaker 4: do I think of my stress differently? When my heart 405 00:22:38,996 --> 00:22:42,276 Speaker 4: is beating, I'm normally thinking to myself, this is bad. 406 00:22:42,956 --> 00:22:45,116 Speaker 4: But if you can remind yourself that my heart beating 407 00:22:45,196 --> 00:22:47,876 Speaker 4: is telling me, like I'm excited about something, there's something 408 00:22:47,916 --> 00:22:50,276 Speaker 4: here that I care about. This is something that I 409 00:22:50,316 --> 00:22:51,956 Speaker 4: want to do. Well in this is something that I 410 00:22:51,996 --> 00:22:55,236 Speaker 4: can do well in. Then that reframes that heartbeat not 411 00:22:55,276 --> 00:22:59,196 Speaker 4: as a bad thing, but as your body preparing to act. 412 00:22:59,876 --> 00:23:01,516 Speaker 2: There have been so many times in my life, whether 413 00:23:01,636 --> 00:23:04,076 Speaker 2: when I was, you know, a child playing the violin, 414 00:23:04,196 --> 00:23:05,956 Speaker 2: or whether it's going into an interviews for a slight 415 00:23:06,036 --> 00:23:09,236 Speaker 2: change of plans, I get a little spooked if I'm 416 00:23:09,236 --> 00:23:11,396 Speaker 2: not nervous, because that means maybe I don't care as 417 00:23:11,476 --> 00:23:13,316 Speaker 2: much as I used to, and so I've actually I 418 00:23:13,396 --> 00:23:16,676 Speaker 2: see stress as being a very affirming signal because it 419 00:23:16,756 --> 00:23:19,076 Speaker 2: shows me that I really care about the outcome, and 420 00:23:19,116 --> 00:23:23,076 Speaker 2: it justifies the unpleasantness of some of those feelings. 421 00:23:23,636 --> 00:23:26,476 Speaker 4: And that's a beautiful way of approaching it. That we 422 00:23:26,596 --> 00:23:30,556 Speaker 4: are typically stressed because there is an underlying reason why 423 00:23:30,596 --> 00:23:33,556 Speaker 4: we care about the situation. And if we can continue 424 00:23:33,596 --> 00:23:37,756 Speaker 4: to ask ourselves why why why, then that puts a 425 00:23:37,756 --> 00:23:42,556 Speaker 4: whole different lens around why you're stressed and changes your approach. 426 00:23:50,876 --> 00:23:55,196 Speaker 2: Our next and final guest is psychologist Kristin Nef. Kristen's 427 00:23:55,196 --> 00:23:58,796 Speaker 2: an expert in self compassion, which she defines as treating 428 00:23:58,836 --> 00:24:01,676 Speaker 2: yourself with the same warmth, kindness, and care that you 429 00:24:01,716 --> 00:24:05,156 Speaker 2: would show to a friend. I'd never been totally bought 430 00:24:05,156 --> 00:24:08,476 Speaker 2: into the idea of self compassion, but Kristin helped me 431 00:24:08,476 --> 00:24:12,556 Speaker 2: see the resent in a new light. Okay, so you know, Kristin, 432 00:24:12,756 --> 00:24:15,676 Speaker 2: I will confess that when I first encountered this work 433 00:24:15,836 --> 00:24:19,756 Speaker 2: years ago, I was a little skeptical. And to be clear, 434 00:24:20,236 --> 00:24:23,516 Speaker 2: it's not because I don't need more self compassion. I've 435 00:24:23,556 --> 00:24:27,836 Speaker 2: always been an intensely self critical person. It's more that 436 00:24:27,876 --> 00:24:32,036 Speaker 2: I just have had specific concerns, and I'm wondering if 437 00:24:32,156 --> 00:24:36,116 Speaker 2: right now we can engage in a quick mythbusting session 438 00:24:36,156 --> 00:24:38,836 Speaker 2: in case there are listeners out there who share some 439 00:24:38,956 --> 00:24:40,916 Speaker 2: of the same skepticism I used to have. I want 440 00:24:40,956 --> 00:24:43,396 Speaker 2: to bring them on this journey with me towards really 441 00:24:43,476 --> 00:24:47,196 Speaker 2: embracing the research and really understanding the value. So one 442 00:24:47,236 --> 00:24:50,836 Speaker 2: concern that I've had is that it seems like promoting 443 00:24:50,876 --> 00:24:53,916 Speaker 2: self compassion can cause people to let themselves off the 444 00:24:53,916 --> 00:24:56,836 Speaker 2: hook for their bad behaviors. And you know, I look 445 00:24:56,876 --> 00:24:59,676 Speaker 2: around and I see a lot of people who are 446 00:24:59,676 --> 00:25:02,796 Speaker 2: not taking accountability for their actions. Right, it seems like 447 00:25:02,836 --> 00:25:06,796 Speaker 2: they could benefit from a bit more internal criticism and 448 00:25:06,916 --> 00:25:10,316 Speaker 2: so and of course, for myself, right, I've benefited from 449 00:25:10,316 --> 00:25:13,996 Speaker 2: self criticism a lot. And so don't we need people 450 00:25:14,036 --> 00:25:16,236 Speaker 2: to be more self critical so that they can be 451 00:25:16,236 --> 00:25:16,956 Speaker 2: better to others? 452 00:25:18,076 --> 00:25:22,276 Speaker 5: Yeah, So self compassion, this kind of unconditional acceptance and 453 00:25:22,356 --> 00:25:26,636 Speaker 5: kindness is toward our worthless people. As human beings. We 454 00:25:26,676 --> 00:25:29,916 Speaker 5: need to accept ourselves, but we can't accept all our behavior, 455 00:25:30,036 --> 00:25:33,236 Speaker 5: especially if it's harming self or others, because if your 456 00:25:33,276 --> 00:25:36,716 Speaker 5: behaviors cause harm to yourself or others is not compassionate. 457 00:25:37,396 --> 00:25:39,756 Speaker 5: So what we do with self compassion is we accept 458 00:25:39,796 --> 00:25:43,756 Speaker 5: ourselves as flawed human beings who've made a mistake and 459 00:25:43,796 --> 00:25:47,156 Speaker 5: that sense of safety. First of all, we don't blame 460 00:25:47,196 --> 00:25:50,716 Speaker 5: others as much. Often, if we slam ourselves with shame 461 00:25:50,916 --> 00:25:54,236 Speaker 5: for admitting we've done something wrong, our little brains are 462 00:25:54,236 --> 00:25:56,396 Speaker 5: going to try as hard as they can to avoid 463 00:25:56,476 --> 00:25:59,276 Speaker 5: taking responsibility and to blame someone else that they can. 464 00:25:59,436 --> 00:26:03,676 Speaker 5: And by the way, research shows that self compassion lessons shame, 465 00:26:03,756 --> 00:26:06,276 Speaker 5: which is a sense of I am bad, but not 466 00:26:06,356 --> 00:26:08,876 Speaker 5: necessarily guilt, which is I did something bad. 467 00:26:09,556 --> 00:26:12,676 Speaker 2: Yeah, and reading your scholarship, I found this distinction very 468 00:26:12,716 --> 00:26:16,436 Speaker 2: helpful because you talk about the difference between guilt and shame, 469 00:26:16,876 --> 00:26:21,036 Speaker 2: and you say, look, being critical of our behaviors is healthy. 470 00:26:21,236 --> 00:26:21,836 Speaker 1: It is good. 471 00:26:21,916 --> 00:26:25,076 Speaker 2: It provides learning opportunities, It allows us to be better people, 472 00:26:25,116 --> 00:26:27,356 Speaker 2: allows us to reflect on who we are and what 473 00:26:27,396 --> 00:26:32,876 Speaker 2: we want from ourselves moving forward. But criticism aimed at ourselves, 474 00:26:32,956 --> 00:26:36,276 Speaker 2: at our being as a whole, is not healthy because, 475 00:26:36,276 --> 00:26:38,756 Speaker 2: as you said, and I've definitely fallen into this camp 476 00:26:38,756 --> 00:26:41,796 Speaker 2: in the past, you don't want to internalize I made 477 00:26:41,836 --> 00:26:45,596 Speaker 2: a mistake, as I am a mistake, right, I am bad. 478 00:26:46,236 --> 00:26:48,916 Speaker 5: Exactly when you do that, it actually shuts down your 479 00:26:48,956 --> 00:26:51,876 Speaker 5: ability to learn from your mistakes because you're so consumed 480 00:26:51,916 --> 00:26:55,516 Speaker 5: by the thoughts of inadequacy or shame. Our sense of 481 00:26:55,596 --> 00:26:58,996 Speaker 5: self kind of gets totally absorbed by the shame. It's 482 00:26:58,996 --> 00:27:02,116 Speaker 5: like we disappear. There's no one home to be able 483 00:27:02,156 --> 00:27:05,316 Speaker 5: to try to correct the behavior. You need the safety 484 00:27:05,316 --> 00:27:08,716 Speaker 5: of self acceptance to be able to criticize your behavior 485 00:27:08,796 --> 00:27:09,636 Speaker 5: and learn from it. 486 00:27:11,516 --> 00:27:13,956 Speaker 2: So another myth that I love you to bust is 487 00:27:14,036 --> 00:27:17,476 Speaker 2: that self compassion is demotivating. And this one's personal. So 488 00:27:17,996 --> 00:27:21,516 Speaker 2: my husband, Jimmy, he loves playing competitive squash. Okay, he's 489 00:27:21,556 --> 00:27:25,156 Speaker 2: obsessed with squash, he's obsessed with getting better, and he's 490 00:27:25,156 --> 00:27:28,476 Speaker 2: so self motivated, But he really berates himself when he 491 00:27:28,796 --> 00:27:32,476 Speaker 2: has a poor performance, and as someone who really loves him, 492 00:27:32,596 --> 00:27:35,036 Speaker 2: I hate seeing him in this self vurration mode. Like 493 00:27:35,076 --> 00:27:38,516 Speaker 2: it's pretty painful after a tournament or after some competition 494 00:27:38,596 --> 00:27:40,756 Speaker 2: for him to be like, oh God, why did I 495 00:27:40,796 --> 00:27:42,236 Speaker 2: do that? Or you know, I messed up or I 496 00:27:42,236 --> 00:27:44,796 Speaker 2: didn't play my best. But what I tell him to 497 00:27:44,876 --> 00:27:48,076 Speaker 2: stop the self criticism to curve it a bit. His 498 00:27:48,196 --> 00:27:50,716 Speaker 2: counter argument is that he doesn't want to lose that 499 00:27:50,836 --> 00:27:53,876 Speaker 2: part of himself because it means he might have less 500 00:27:53,916 --> 00:27:58,596 Speaker 2: motivation to work hard during his next practice session. And so, yeah, 501 00:27:58,676 --> 00:28:00,596 Speaker 2: give me a good argument with my husband. 502 00:28:01,236 --> 00:28:03,036 Speaker 5: Yeah, well, I'll give you the argument. Then I'll give 503 00:28:03,036 --> 00:28:05,836 Speaker 5: you the data. Because this one is also very very clear, 504 00:28:06,276 --> 00:28:09,356 Speaker 5: is it self Compassion is a more effective motivator than 505 00:28:09,396 --> 00:28:12,876 Speaker 5: self criticism. So self criticism does kind of work. Clearly, 506 00:28:12,916 --> 00:28:15,436 Speaker 5: it works gets people through med school. It probably motivates 507 00:28:15,436 --> 00:28:19,316 Speaker 5: your husband. But the motivation comes from fear I have 508 00:28:19,356 --> 00:28:22,236 Speaker 5: to do better or else I'll slam myself, and that's motivating. 509 00:28:22,276 --> 00:28:24,116 Speaker 5: No one wants to feel like they're a bad person 510 00:28:24,236 --> 00:28:27,756 Speaker 5: or a loser, So that does provide some motivational power, 511 00:28:27,956 --> 00:28:31,036 Speaker 5: but it also has some maladaptive side effects, which is 512 00:28:31,076 --> 00:28:34,396 Speaker 5: first of all, performance anxiety. Right, So we want some 513 00:28:34,636 --> 00:28:37,516 Speaker 5: anxiety to feel like, Okay, it's important that I work. 514 00:28:37,796 --> 00:28:40,396 Speaker 5: But performance anxiety, which is kind of fear of if 515 00:28:40,436 --> 00:28:42,676 Speaker 5: I mess up, I'm going to be a loser or 516 00:28:42,716 --> 00:28:45,236 Speaker 5: I'm going to shame myself that actually stands in the 517 00:28:45,276 --> 00:28:48,116 Speaker 5: way of our ability to do our best. It also 518 00:28:48,236 --> 00:28:52,156 Speaker 5: undermines our self confidence. But this is really key, It 519 00:28:52,276 --> 00:28:55,396 Speaker 5: undermines our ability to learn. It's very similar to what 520 00:28:55,436 --> 00:28:59,036 Speaker 5: we were just talking about. If you shame yourself for losing, 521 00:28:59,076 --> 00:29:01,756 Speaker 5: I'm a loser, I'm a bad person. You aren't going 522 00:29:01,796 --> 00:29:04,956 Speaker 5: to be as able to say, Okay, just because I 523 00:29:05,036 --> 00:29:07,276 Speaker 5: lost doesn't mean I'm a loser. What can I do 524 00:29:07,356 --> 00:29:11,076 Speaker 5: better next time? And so self compassion is very strongly 525 00:29:11,356 --> 00:29:14,196 Speaker 5: linked to a learning goal orientation as opposed to what's 526 00:29:14,196 --> 00:29:17,516 Speaker 5: called performance goals, which is my success or failure defiance 527 00:29:17,596 --> 00:29:19,916 Speaker 5: my work as a person. There's a new study that 528 00:29:20,036 --> 00:29:22,516 Speaker 5: isn't even published yet. It just got accepted a few 529 00:29:22,596 --> 00:29:24,916 Speaker 5: days ago. Hot Off the Presses, who I Love Hot 530 00:29:24,956 --> 00:29:28,996 Speaker 5: Off the Presses? Slight Change listeners, listen up. So you 531 00:29:28,996 --> 00:29:32,276 Speaker 5: know I work at University of Texas at Austin, and 532 00:29:32,316 --> 00:29:34,596 Speaker 5: I had a dissertation student at the time. He was 533 00:29:34,636 --> 00:29:39,076 Speaker 5: an ex basketball player who for her dissertation decided to 534 00:29:39,196 --> 00:29:44,076 Speaker 5: formalize a self compassion training for NC DOUBLEA athletes. So 535 00:29:44,116 --> 00:29:48,876 Speaker 5: we did a study with several high end NCUBLEA sports teams, 536 00:29:48,916 --> 00:29:52,316 Speaker 5: all different sports, and we taught them self compassion over 537 00:29:52,356 --> 00:29:55,916 Speaker 5: about four weeks. We actually didn't call it self compassion 538 00:29:55,916 --> 00:29:57,596 Speaker 5: because we knew that was standing in the way. We 539 00:29:57,676 --> 00:30:00,916 Speaker 5: called it inner resilience training, and we taught them how 540 00:30:00,956 --> 00:30:04,596 Speaker 5: to be warm and supportive and kind to themselves when 541 00:30:04,596 --> 00:30:07,196 Speaker 5: they were having trouble in their training routine or if 542 00:30:07,196 --> 00:30:09,916 Speaker 5: they lost in their sport. And what we found is 543 00:30:09,956 --> 00:30:13,316 Speaker 5: not only did it help players' mental health, it improved 544 00:30:13,316 --> 00:30:18,156 Speaker 5: their performance, both self rated and coach rated performance, because again, 545 00:30:19,036 --> 00:30:22,116 Speaker 5: when it's okay to make a mistake or to lose, 546 00:30:22,476 --> 00:30:24,516 Speaker 5: you're more able to learn from the loss or the 547 00:30:24,556 --> 00:30:26,476 Speaker 5: mistake and improve it next time. 548 00:30:26,876 --> 00:30:29,636 Speaker 1: So yes, I love all this research, Kristen. 549 00:30:30,316 --> 00:30:33,476 Speaker 2: Another concern that I'd had when it came to engaging 550 00:30:33,476 --> 00:30:36,156 Speaker 2: with the self compassion work or trying out these interventions 551 00:30:36,276 --> 00:30:40,036 Speaker 2: is that it just kind of felt self centered or 552 00:30:40,076 --> 00:30:42,396 Speaker 2: selfish or narcissistic. 553 00:30:42,476 --> 00:30:42,836 Speaker 1: I don't know. 554 00:30:42,876 --> 00:30:45,316 Speaker 2: I was like, what am I doing here? Sitting here 555 00:30:45,356 --> 00:30:49,396 Speaker 2: trying to love myself? Like I just yeah, convince me 556 00:30:49,476 --> 00:30:52,796 Speaker 2: that this is not just the most extreme form of narcissism. 557 00:30:53,116 --> 00:30:57,116 Speaker 5: Yes, well, absolutely. The reason it's not selfish or narcissistic 558 00:30:57,756 --> 00:31:01,796 Speaker 5: is because it's not like we only have five units 559 00:31:01,836 --> 00:31:04,916 Speaker 5: of compassion and if we give three to ourselves, we 560 00:31:04,956 --> 00:31:07,476 Speaker 5: only have two left over for other people. It actually 561 00:31:07,476 --> 00:31:10,596 Speaker 5: doesn't work this way. Then the research is very clear, 562 00:31:10,956 --> 00:31:13,836 Speaker 5: the more self compassion we give ourselves, in other words, 563 00:31:13,836 --> 00:31:16,636 Speaker 5: the more we fill our own cup, the more compassion 564 00:31:16,676 --> 00:31:20,236 Speaker 5: we have available to give to others. Right, So, there's 565 00:31:20,276 --> 00:31:22,436 Speaker 5: a couple of studies that show this one is burnout. 566 00:31:22,636 --> 00:31:25,516 Speaker 5: You know, this burnout such a problem. We know, whether 567 00:31:25,556 --> 00:31:28,196 Speaker 5: you're a special needs parent or you're a healthcare worker, 568 00:31:28,516 --> 00:31:31,276 Speaker 5: if you're more self compassionate, you're less likely to burn 569 00:31:31,356 --> 00:31:35,676 Speaker 5: out or experience fatigue giving compassion to others. And then 570 00:31:35,836 --> 00:31:38,596 Speaker 5: the other evidence we have that self compassion isn't selfish 571 00:31:38,676 --> 00:31:42,996 Speaker 5: is that in relationships, our partners say that we're more giving, 572 00:31:43,276 --> 00:31:47,556 Speaker 5: we're less selfish, we're less controlling in the relationship if 573 00:31:47,596 --> 00:31:51,716 Speaker 5: we have self compassion. And again, it's really about resourcing yourself. 574 00:31:52,236 --> 00:31:54,956 Speaker 5: When you can resource yourself, you actually have more to 575 00:31:54,996 --> 00:31:58,276 Speaker 5: give to others and you aren't so self focused because 576 00:31:58,276 --> 00:32:00,836 Speaker 5: it's like, oh, Okay, maybe I made a mistake or 577 00:32:00,876 --> 00:32:03,836 Speaker 5: maybe this is a little difficult, and you give yourself 578 00:32:03,876 --> 00:32:06,156 Speaker 5: what you need to get through that, and that actually 579 00:32:06,156 --> 00:32:08,876 Speaker 5: gives you the emotional energy you need to care for 580 00:32:08,996 --> 00:32:13,396 Speaker 5: us others. Shame and self criticism is an incredibly self 581 00:32:13,396 --> 00:32:15,596 Speaker 5: focused state. You know, who are you thinking about when 582 00:32:15,636 --> 00:32:17,916 Speaker 5: you're beating yourself up? Not other people? 583 00:32:18,916 --> 00:32:22,516 Speaker 2: A good point to Chee. I think this is such 584 00:32:22,556 --> 00:32:25,756 Speaker 2: a critical point that you're making about us not having 585 00:32:25,876 --> 00:32:29,876 Speaker 2: finite compassion resources, because I think we do think of 586 00:32:29,916 --> 00:32:32,316 Speaker 2: it as a trade off instinctively. Oh, if I'm really 587 00:32:32,316 --> 00:32:34,676 Speaker 2: compassionate towards myself, then I have fewer resources to give 588 00:32:34,716 --> 00:32:38,196 Speaker 2: to others. Or if I'm really compassionate towards others, I 589 00:32:38,236 --> 00:32:41,076 Speaker 2: don't have the resources to give that same compassion to myself. Yes, 590 00:32:41,236 --> 00:32:43,036 Speaker 2: And what you're telling me is that we shouldn't see 591 00:32:43,076 --> 00:32:46,236 Speaker 2: it as a limited resource. We actually can tap into 592 00:32:46,276 --> 00:32:48,956 Speaker 2: a lot and it can be a virtuous cycle where 593 00:32:48,956 --> 00:32:51,596 Speaker 2: the more we invest compassion ourselves, the more the more 594 00:32:51,636 --> 00:32:53,116 Speaker 2: we have to give to others. 595 00:32:52,796 --> 00:32:53,716 Speaker 1: Is that right? 596 00:32:53,956 --> 00:32:57,076 Speaker 5: Absolutely, it's additive. It's not a zero sum game. 597 00:32:57,796 --> 00:33:21,596 Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, Hey, thanks so much for listening. You can 598 00:33:21,636 --> 00:33:24,876 Speaker 2: find links to the full versions of the episodes featuring Ethan, 599 00:33:25,036 --> 00:33:28,596 Speaker 2: Madupe and Kristen in the show notes. If you enjoyed 600 00:33:28,596 --> 00:33:32,276 Speaker 2: the special compilation episode, let us know. We're always eager 601 00:33:32,316 --> 00:33:35,196 Speaker 2: to hear from you. You can find me on Instagram 602 00:33:35,196 --> 00:33:38,316 Speaker 2: at doctor Maya Shunker. We'll be back in your feed 603 00:33:38,356 --> 00:33:40,556 Speaker 2: with a new episode on February tenth. 604 00:33:40,916 --> 00:33:41,396 Speaker 1: See you then. 605 00:33:51,756 --> 00:33:54,916 Speaker 2: A Slight Change of Plans is created, written, and executive 606 00:33:54,916 --> 00:33:58,596 Speaker 2: produced by me Maya Shunker. The Slight Change family includes 607 00:33:58,636 --> 00:34:02,676 Speaker 2: our showrunner Tyler Green, our senior editor Kate Parkinson Morgan, 608 00:34:03,076 --> 00:34:06,756 Speaker 2: our producers Britney Cronin and Megan Lubin, and our sound 609 00:34:06,796 --> 00:34:11,596 Speaker 2: engineer Erica Wong. Scara wrote our delightful theme song and 610 00:34:11,716 --> 00:34:15,156 Speaker 2: Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals. A Slight Change of 611 00:34:15,156 --> 00:34:18,436 Speaker 2: Plans is a production of Pushkin Industries, so big thanks 612 00:34:18,476 --> 00:34:22,156 Speaker 2: to everyone there, and of course a very special thanks 613 00:34:22,196 --> 00:34:37,716 Speaker 2: to Jimmy Lee.