1 00:00:01,320 --> 00:00:04,240 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:13,920 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio, Hello and Happy Friday. I'm Tracy P. 3 00:00:14,040 --> 00:00:15,520 Speaker 2: Wilson and I'm Holly Fry. 4 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:18,560 Speaker 1: We spent the whole week this week talking about Rosina 5 00:00:18,560 --> 00:00:22,120 Speaker 1: Bulwer Lytton and by extension, her husband, Edward Bowler Lytton. 6 00:00:22,239 --> 00:00:23,120 Speaker 1: We sure did. 7 00:00:24,040 --> 00:00:25,919 Speaker 2: Wow okay number one. 8 00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:30,040 Speaker 1: When I put Edward Bulwer Lytton on the short list, 9 00:00:30,080 --> 00:00:32,800 Speaker 1: it's just based on It was a Dark and Stormy Night. 10 00:00:34,040 --> 00:00:36,400 Speaker 1: I had no concept that he had also had like 11 00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:39,599 Speaker 1: a huge political career in the UK. Did not know 12 00:00:39,680 --> 00:00:42,200 Speaker 1: about him being Secretary of State for the Colonies, didn't 13 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:45,320 Speaker 1: know anything about that. Just like literally was like, who's 14 00:00:45,360 --> 00:00:47,800 Speaker 1: this guy that wrote it was a Dark and Stormy Night? 15 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:49,640 Speaker 2: What is the story behind him? 16 00:00:51,040 --> 00:00:54,319 Speaker 1: And then stumbling onto the fact that he had his 17 00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:58,560 Speaker 1: wife committed really to try to get her out of 18 00:00:58,560 --> 00:01:04,040 Speaker 1: the way because she was in many forms continually screaming 19 00:01:04,040 --> 00:01:07,160 Speaker 1: at him in public. I was like, Okay, I whatever 20 00:01:07,319 --> 00:01:09,000 Speaker 1: was going on with him? I think this is the 21 00:01:09,080 --> 00:01:15,199 Speaker 1: more interesting thing to talk about and also upsetting. One 22 00:01:15,240 --> 00:01:18,920 Speaker 1: of the things that we didn't really talk about directly 23 00:01:18,959 --> 00:01:21,240 Speaker 1: but kind of alluded to, was like at the time 24 00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:27,560 Speaker 1: until he had her committed. Generally speaking, a lot of 25 00:01:27,640 --> 00:01:32,479 Speaker 1: people were on Edward's side. They were like, Wow, your 26 00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:37,160 Speaker 1: wife is not in her right mind right, I feel 27 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:41,280 Speaker 1: very sorry for you. And it wasn't until he had 28 00:01:41,319 --> 00:01:44,520 Speaker 1: her committed that a lot of people were like, Okay, 29 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:47,480 Speaker 1: that was not okay at all. What are you even doing? 30 00:01:48,320 --> 00:01:52,640 Speaker 1: But even today, some of the writing about this, like, 31 00:01:53,760 --> 00:01:59,400 Speaker 1: we know for sure that Edward was like he had 32 00:01:59,680 --> 00:02:04,400 Speaker 1: extra marital affairs. We know for sure that he kept 33 00:02:04,440 --> 00:02:07,720 Speaker 1: her from seeing her children after they were separated, We 34 00:02:07,840 --> 00:02:11,239 Speaker 1: know for sure that he had her committed. We also 35 00:02:11,320 --> 00:02:14,080 Speaker 1: have her allegations about his physical abuse, some of which 36 00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:16,320 Speaker 1: is backed up by other witness statements, some of which 37 00:02:16,320 --> 00:02:18,760 Speaker 1: we have her word to go on. Either way, we 38 00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:24,120 Speaker 1: have those allegations also, And sometimes people make it sound like, well, 39 00:02:24,280 --> 00:02:28,600 Speaker 1: she was shrill though, as though that invalidates all of 40 00:02:28,639 --> 00:02:32,600 Speaker 1: the many reasons that she had to be outraged about 41 00:02:32,639 --> 00:02:36,760 Speaker 1: her husband, and the fact that she was so legally 42 00:02:36,960 --> 00:02:41,560 Speaker 1: powerless to do anything about any of it, which I 43 00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:46,680 Speaker 1: hated that part of a lot. There was also there 44 00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:49,119 Speaker 1: were a number of things that I wanted to try 45 00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:53,440 Speaker 1: to find scans of some There are a number of 46 00:02:53,440 --> 00:02:55,560 Speaker 1: things that you can easily find scans of, that our 47 00:02:55,600 --> 00:02:58,680 Speaker 1: books that each of them wrote, the edition of his 48 00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:03,960 Speaker 1: letters that was published after Rosina died, the biography that 49 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:07,720 Speaker 1: was written of her, the biography that his son wrote 50 00:03:07,760 --> 00:03:09,720 Speaker 1: of him, Like all of these things that are scans of. 51 00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:12,200 Speaker 1: But there are some smaller pieces and pamphlets and stuff 52 00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:14,440 Speaker 1: that I just wasn't able to find a scan of anywhere. 53 00:03:14,480 --> 00:03:18,200 Speaker 1: And one of them was from eighteen fifty eight and 54 00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:23,000 Speaker 1: was called extraordinary Narrative of an outrageous violation of liberty 55 00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:26,400 Speaker 1: and law and the forcible seizure and incarceration of Lady 56 00:03:26,480 --> 00:03:30,760 Speaker 1: Lytton Bulwer in the gloomy cell of a Madhouse, followed 57 00:03:30,760 --> 00:03:35,839 Speaker 1: by three exclamation points. I noted the title of that down. 58 00:03:35,880 --> 00:03:37,120 Speaker 1: It was like I wish I could find this, and 59 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:38,280 Speaker 1: I was not able to find it. 60 00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:40,960 Speaker 2: Right. We also talked about how. 61 00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:47,280 Speaker 1: This was a time in which women were disproportionately institutionalized, 62 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:51,640 Speaker 1: sometimes for nothing having to do with their mental health, 63 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:57,400 Speaker 1: having more to do with people finding their behavior unacceptable 64 00:03:57,560 --> 00:03:58,600 Speaker 1: for whatever reason. 65 00:03:58,880 --> 00:04:02,480 Speaker 2: Right, And in June of eighteen fifty. 66 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:07,200 Speaker 1: Eight there was a piece that made reference to three 67 00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:11,880 Speaker 1: very prominent people from this time, those being Edward Bulwer Lytton, 68 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:17,640 Speaker 1: Charles Dickens, and William make Peace Thackeray. And at this 69 00:04:17,839 --> 00:04:21,039 Speaker 1: point Rosina bul Where Lytton was like writing all of 70 00:04:21,080 --> 00:04:25,840 Speaker 1: these very angry novels. Dickens's marriage had kind of collapsed, 71 00:04:26,760 --> 00:04:31,359 Speaker 1: Thackeray's wife had been institutionalized. Rosina bull Were Lytton after 72 00:04:31,400 --> 00:04:34,839 Speaker 1: this also put in an institution. I think this is 73 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:37,640 Speaker 1: also afterward in the timeline. I didn't take very good 74 00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:39,360 Speaker 1: notes about this thing that I was going to try 75 00:04:39,400 --> 00:04:42,480 Speaker 1: to explain in our behind the scenes. Basically, the point 76 00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:46,680 Speaker 1: was two of these women wound up institutionalized, and there's 77 00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:53,440 Speaker 1: also some evidence that Dickens thought about institutionalizing his own 78 00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:58,400 Speaker 1: wife as well. Yeah, it does seem like Thackeray's wife 79 00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:05,360 Speaker 1: did actually have a mental illness happening, but yet it 80 00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:08,880 Speaker 1: was it was a pattern that was going on. We 81 00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:11,920 Speaker 1: also made reference to the fact that Edward's name, which 82 00:05:11,960 --> 00:05:15,360 Speaker 1: was already very long, got even longer when he re 83 00:05:15,440 --> 00:05:18,680 Speaker 1: appended the Litton to the end of it, and in 84 00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:22,800 Speaker 1: the updated deed of separation after he increased her allowance 85 00:05:22,839 --> 00:05:26,360 Speaker 1: to five hundred pounds, they just abbreviate the middle part 86 00:05:26,440 --> 00:05:28,880 Speaker 1: so consistently all the way through it, he is referred 87 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:30,920 Speaker 1: to as Sir Edward G. E. L. 88 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:31,599 Speaker 2: B Lytton. 89 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:34,000 Speaker 1: And I was like, yeah, that's a lot. That's too 90 00:05:34,480 --> 00:05:37,719 Speaker 1: much to write out, too many letters. Yeah, Yeah, this 91 00:05:37,880 --> 00:05:39,960 Speaker 1: is such an interesting case to me because on the 92 00:05:39,960 --> 00:05:46,200 Speaker 1: one hand, right, I will concede that she was not 93 00:05:46,839 --> 00:05:50,120 Speaker 1: in the manner of her writing always doing herself a 94 00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:55,240 Speaker 1: lot of favors right in terms of like not leading 95 00:05:55,279 --> 00:05:58,800 Speaker 1: people to think she might have lost touch a. 96 00:05:58,800 --> 00:05:59,920 Speaker 2: Little bit with reality. 97 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:02,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, But then the thing that I kept coming back 98 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:04,240 Speaker 1: to you in my head as I was looking this 99 00:06:04,320 --> 00:06:08,159 Speaker 1: over initially is yeah, but this dude bit her in 100 00:06:08,240 --> 00:06:13,440 Speaker 1: the face so hard she bled down her clothes. Yeah, 101 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:18,080 Speaker 1: that would make a completely sane and solid person probably 102 00:06:18,200 --> 00:06:24,719 Speaker 1: lose it, right, Yeah, Yeah, Like nobody questions that, Yeah, 103 00:06:24,760 --> 00:06:27,240 Speaker 1: was he crazy? He bit his wife in the face, 104 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:31,239 Speaker 1: like in addition to the many other things. But that's 105 00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:35,520 Speaker 1: that's such a weird. Yeah, that is like a domestic 106 00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:40,040 Speaker 1: violence situation that is not just aggressive, it is weird 107 00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:45,280 Speaker 1: and feral behavior. And nobody was like, you know, I 108 00:06:45,279 --> 00:06:49,880 Speaker 1: think he's I think maybe yeah problem, some sanity problems, right, 109 00:06:49,960 --> 00:06:54,039 Speaker 1: and even his his letter about you know, I've just 110 00:06:54,080 --> 00:06:58,960 Speaker 1: determined I'm not fit to live with another person. It's 111 00:06:59,040 --> 00:07:02,680 Speaker 1: so manages to make himself sort of the victim of 112 00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:03,200 Speaker 1: the piece. 113 00:07:03,800 --> 00:07:04,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, poor me. 114 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:06,960 Speaker 1: I just was raised in a way that I can't 115 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:10,640 Speaker 1: be around other people. It's my nature. But also everything 116 00:07:10,680 --> 00:07:12,960 Speaker 1: in my life has made me this way, and I'm just. 117 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:20,080 Speaker 2: Like right, get the time machine ready. Yeah. 118 00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:23,240 Speaker 1: There are a couple of articles that I read when 119 00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:25,200 Speaker 1: I was working on this that did kind of a 120 00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:31,520 Speaker 1: comparison of resinable were Lytton's writing and Caroline Sheridan Norton's writing. 121 00:07:32,080 --> 00:07:34,840 Speaker 1: So our episode on Caroline Norton is only a couple 122 00:07:34,880 --> 00:07:36,960 Speaker 1: of years old, and it's also a two parter, so 123 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:39,280 Speaker 1: I have not tried to line it up as a 124 00:07:39,320 --> 00:07:42,600 Speaker 1: Saturday Classic because we don't do two parters as Saturday 125 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:45,920 Speaker 1: Classics that often. But we read at length some of 126 00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:49,040 Speaker 1: the things that she wrote in that episode, that Caroline 127 00:07:49,160 --> 00:07:52,360 Speaker 1: Norton wrote in that episode, and they are like such 128 00:07:53,360 --> 00:07:59,880 Speaker 1: straightforward and assertive but also calm and quote reasonable appeal 129 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:06,680 Speaker 1: for the rights of women, explanation of the reality that 130 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:10,000 Speaker 1: women were living under at once they got married and 131 00:08:10,040 --> 00:08:13,040 Speaker 1: basically lost all of their legal rights. There were also 132 00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:15,440 Speaker 1: people thought that she was going way too far with 133 00:08:15,520 --> 00:08:17,880 Speaker 1: the kind of things that she wrote about. But then 134 00:08:17,920 --> 00:08:21,360 Speaker 1: by comparison, Rosina bul Or Lytton is just kind of 135 00:08:21,640 --> 00:08:24,760 Speaker 1: screaming in some of her and some of her pamphlets 136 00:08:24,800 --> 00:08:27,960 Speaker 1: and some of her books. And it really does seem 137 00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:33,120 Speaker 1: to me like the wealthier Edward became, the more prominent 138 00:08:33,760 --> 00:08:39,400 Speaker 1: he became, the more angry. Understandably, the more angry she became, 139 00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:42,079 Speaker 1: partly because she was like seeing what they had been 140 00:08:42,120 --> 00:08:45,560 Speaker 1: planning for actually happening for him when she was not 141 00:08:45,640 --> 00:08:48,079 Speaker 1: really in their marriage anymore, but then also seeing that 142 00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:53,280 Speaker 1: he was doing things like he inherited a mansion and 143 00:08:53,360 --> 00:08:57,040 Speaker 1: kept putting a lot of money into renovations on the mansion. 144 00:08:57,080 --> 00:08:59,440 Speaker 1: And she's like, you're saying, you can't afford to raise 145 00:08:59,480 --> 00:09:02,280 Speaker 1: my allow it's by one hundred pounds a year, but 146 00:09:02,520 --> 00:09:10,240 Speaker 1: you are doing renovations on your mansion. You're importing Carrera Marble, Are. 147 00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:10,840 Speaker 2: You kidding me? 148 00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:16,760 Speaker 1: And so it's like, like it makes absolute sense that 149 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:20,440 Speaker 1: she would feel like I am trapped and I am 150 00:09:20,520 --> 00:09:21,720 Speaker 1: just gonna scream about it. 151 00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:23,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, And that screaming about it. 152 00:09:24,520 --> 00:09:29,520 Speaker 1: Like when even the most reasonable thing is positioned as 153 00:09:29,559 --> 00:09:32,599 Speaker 1: going too far. Her screaming about it came off to 154 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:35,840 Speaker 1: people as like going way way too far right. It's 155 00:09:35,920 --> 00:09:40,160 Speaker 1: telling though, right that that that all reverses very abruptly 156 00:09:40,240 --> 00:09:44,240 Speaker 1: at the end. Yeah yeah, where after she is released, 157 00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:48,079 Speaker 1: he suddenly like, here's your money, everybody. Yeah, cool, we 158 00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:52,240 Speaker 1: gotta walk this back a little bit. I feel like 159 00:09:52,280 --> 00:09:57,000 Speaker 1: we will still see this today. Sometimes in public you know, 160 00:09:57,080 --> 00:10:02,800 Speaker 1: when public figures go through like a really destructive relationship 161 00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:07,240 Speaker 1: and breakup, Yeah, sometimes it will like there will be 162 00:10:08,040 --> 00:10:14,000 Speaker 1: verified accounts of one person being abusive and the other 163 00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:19,520 Speaker 1: person being like, to use the gendered term like shrill, 164 00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:24,520 Speaker 1: which has that's a very yeah, reactive is a much 165 00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:25,080 Speaker 1: better term. 166 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:26,240 Speaker 2: But a lot of times. 167 00:10:25,960 --> 00:10:29,280 Speaker 1: It's like, you know, if the person, if a woman 168 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:35,280 Speaker 1: in this situation, is being really angry and reactive, like 169 00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:39,560 Speaker 1: she will be branded as shrill, and people kind of saying, well, 170 00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:43,800 Speaker 1: that invalidates everything that she's saying that's happening, Like, no, no, 171 00:10:43,960 --> 00:10:47,520 Speaker 1: it's not. It's not actually how it works, not actually 172 00:10:47,559 --> 00:10:59,520 Speaker 1: how works at all. Do we know why Emily was 173 00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:01,800 Speaker 1: in a boarding house when she died? 174 00:11:02,360 --> 00:11:04,320 Speaker 2: I am not fully clear on. 175 00:11:04,280 --> 00:11:06,400 Speaker 1: That, because that seems messed up. 176 00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:07,360 Speaker 2: Yeah. 177 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:11,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, So Rosina claimed that her that her father was 178 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:16,880 Speaker 1: making her translate documents for him. It is not totally 179 00:11:16,960 --> 00:11:21,560 Speaker 1: clear whether that's the case. It does seem like that 180 00:11:21,679 --> 00:11:26,400 Speaker 1: when she came of age as an adult, that he 181 00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:29,840 Speaker 1: saw her as potentially, you know, able to take on 182 00:11:29,960 --> 00:11:31,040 Speaker 1: the role, like. 183 00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:33,640 Speaker 2: The household role of a wife. 184 00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:36,040 Speaker 1: And I'm not in any way saying in a sexual way, 185 00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:40,680 Speaker 1: but like the role that house, yeah, managing the house. 186 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:44,200 Speaker 1: That he would now have a source of unpaid labor 187 00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:46,920 Speaker 1: in the turn, in the form of his daughter. I 188 00:11:46,960 --> 00:11:49,520 Speaker 1: am not clear on why she wound up at this 189 00:11:49,559 --> 00:11:54,680 Speaker 1: boarding house rather than living at Neworth Nebworth House and 190 00:11:54,880 --> 00:11:58,000 Speaker 1: possibly like taking on the unpaid role of managing that 191 00:11:58,040 --> 00:12:01,800 Speaker 1: household household. I don't know, but Rosina was sure mad 192 00:12:01,840 --> 00:12:05,480 Speaker 1: about it, yeah, and especially mad that he made it 193 00:12:05,520 --> 00:12:08,439 Speaker 1: sound like that she had died at Nebworth House instead 194 00:12:08,440 --> 00:12:09,960 Speaker 1: of in this boarding house where she was. 195 00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:12,680 Speaker 2: For some reason, it made me think a lot. 196 00:12:12,760 --> 00:12:16,360 Speaker 1: You know that that line that gets set a lot lately, 197 00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:20,880 Speaker 1: every accusation is an admission, Oh sure, yeah, yeah. In 198 00:12:21,080 --> 00:12:26,600 Speaker 1: his constant assertion that Rosina you know, actually preferred the 199 00:12:26,640 --> 00:12:29,200 Speaker 1: dogs to the children and she did not care about 200 00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:33,240 Speaker 1: the children, I'm like, are you actually talking about yourself, dude, 201 00:12:33,400 --> 00:12:38,359 Speaker 1: yeacause yeah, other than making your son into your duplicate, 202 00:12:38,480 --> 00:12:41,359 Speaker 1: you don't seem to really care about these kids. Well, yeah, 203 00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:44,600 Speaker 1: it's also totally possible that there is a clearly documented 204 00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:48,120 Speaker 1: reason for that somewhere. There was an enormous volume of 205 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:53,800 Speaker 1: material that was involved in working on this episode and 206 00:12:53,880 --> 00:12:58,680 Speaker 1: no possible way to really read one hundred percent of it, right, 207 00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:01,080 Speaker 1: So yeah, it's possible that some of these things that 208 00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:07,000 Speaker 1: I confused about are documented somewhere. But even with switching 209 00:13:07,040 --> 00:13:10,680 Speaker 1: topics completely to take more time with this one later, 210 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:14,120 Speaker 1: like I still did, I didn't wind up with satisfying 211 00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:16,440 Speaker 1: answers on all of the questions that I had a 212 00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:19,160 Speaker 1: lot of which were about things like that, the particulars 213 00:13:19,160 --> 00:13:21,800 Speaker 1: of Okay, how did we get in this situation? What 214 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:25,080 Speaker 1: exactly happened with Rosina and her son after a few 215 00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:30,600 Speaker 1: months touring Europe that led them to resume non contact basically? 216 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:34,680 Speaker 1: That also took me by surprise, Yeah, because he seemed 217 00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:38,920 Speaker 1: so much to be in his father's camp. Yeah, in 218 00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:42,560 Speaker 1: terms of how he perceived his mother and her behavior. Yeah, 219 00:13:42,559 --> 00:13:48,120 Speaker 1: I'm like, and yet you wanted to travel together, which 220 00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:52,400 Speaker 1: I think some of this from my read on, it 221 00:13:52,520 --> 00:13:56,040 Speaker 1: was that Robert wanted to get his mother out of 222 00:13:56,080 --> 00:13:57,680 Speaker 1: his father's way for a while. 223 00:13:57,920 --> 00:14:00,760 Speaker 2: Ah, And I'm. 224 00:14:00,520 --> 00:14:03,480 Speaker 1: There's probably more documentation of like the specifics of that 225 00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:06,720 Speaker 1: trip somewhere, but it was there was so much in 226 00:14:06,760 --> 00:14:10,160 Speaker 1: this episode, right, I mean, I'm just like, I can 227 00:14:10,280 --> 00:14:13,960 Speaker 1: barely manage to travel with, you know, more than two 228 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:17,640 Speaker 1: people at a time without going bananas if I adore 229 00:14:17,679 --> 00:14:21,520 Speaker 1: them both, just because travel is inherently super fun, but 230 00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:25,040 Speaker 1: also like logistically has stressors and yeah and whatnot. And 231 00:14:25,120 --> 00:14:28,280 Speaker 1: I'm like, why would anybody opt, yeah, to go on 232 00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:32,600 Speaker 1: a lengthy travel with somebody they have really been talking 233 00:14:32,640 --> 00:14:36,440 Speaker 1: crap about for a while. Yeah, Yeah, that doesn't sound fun. 234 00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:39,880 Speaker 1: It's also clear that both of the both of the children, 235 00:14:40,160 --> 00:14:44,640 Speaker 1: Robert and Emily, I don't I could not really say 236 00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:48,480 Speaker 1: that either of their parents ever had their best interests 237 00:14:48,560 --> 00:14:53,160 Speaker 1: in mind right with anything. They both seem to have 238 00:14:53,240 --> 00:14:57,160 Speaker 1: been like really ready to use their children and their 239 00:14:57,200 --> 00:15:02,720 Speaker 1: relationships with their children as ammunition against each other, which 240 00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:04,800 Speaker 1: like they I think the two of them probably came 241 00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:09,280 Speaker 1: off or had had the worst out of all of 242 00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:12,520 Speaker 1: this just because of like each of their parents being 243 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:15,880 Speaker 1: so so caught up in what was going on with 244 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:20,440 Speaker 1: the other one, Right that they never got actual parenting. 245 00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:24,880 Speaker 1: It would not have been that unusual for governesses and 246 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:27,320 Speaker 1: tutors and people like that who have been a big 247 00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:30,160 Speaker 1: part of these kids upbringing. But like it, I think 248 00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:34,800 Speaker 1: the bull were litten dynamic went beyond that in terms 249 00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:38,440 Speaker 1: of like how how the parents were interacting with their 250 00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:39,280 Speaker 1: children or not. 251 00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:40,560 Speaker 2: Yeah. 252 00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:42,640 Speaker 1: This also does put me in mind a bit of 253 00:15:42,760 --> 00:15:45,600 Speaker 1: like I think we have probably all lived through one 254 00:15:45,640 --> 00:15:48,320 Speaker 1: of those scenarios where we know people who are perfectly 255 00:15:48,880 --> 00:15:51,000 Speaker 1: lovely and then they go through a breakup and they 256 00:15:51,040 --> 00:15:57,680 Speaker 1: become both really quite messy yeah, and even monstrous at times, 257 00:15:57,680 --> 00:16:01,400 Speaker 1: and it's like, I know there's a reasonable person in 258 00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:06,360 Speaker 1: there somewhere. Yeah, but I also understand why you're at 259 00:16:06,400 --> 00:16:10,560 Speaker 1: this breaking point, right, although this seems like it was 260 00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:12,160 Speaker 1: pretty rough before that. 261 00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:14,320 Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah. 262 00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:16,240 Speaker 1: But Tracy, he couldn't help it. It was just his 263 00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:18,960 Speaker 1: nature and everyone made him that way. 264 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:29,640 Speaker 2: I can't go just not take accountability for anything. Yeah. 265 00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:33,400 Speaker 1: I think that's probably all I have to say about 266 00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:39,760 Speaker 1: the Bulwer Lyttons. I am glad that women in the 267 00:16:39,880 --> 00:16:44,200 Speaker 1: UK and the US to some extent also are no 268 00:16:44,280 --> 00:16:53,440 Speaker 1: longer just like a legal entity completely subsumed by their husband. Yeah, 269 00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:56,160 Speaker 1: we've had a number of episodes at this point about 270 00:16:56,280 --> 00:17:01,240 Speaker 1: evolution in divorce law and marriage law and things like that, 271 00:17:01,400 --> 00:17:06,280 Speaker 1: and so with kind of the recent rise in people 272 00:17:06,320 --> 00:17:09,520 Speaker 1: saying that women should go back to having a traditional role, 273 00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:12,720 Speaker 1: this is what the traditional role was for a long 274 00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:17,000 Speaker 1: time in common law in Britain and the US. 275 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:19,960 Speaker 2: So let's not do that. Yeah, it's not. 276 00:17:20,480 --> 00:17:22,840 Speaker 1: I don't I don't even know how that would I mean, 277 00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:27,639 Speaker 1: just like the concept of it. Yeah, selfishly, I don't 278 00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:30,440 Speaker 1: know how that would work, right. I think I would 279 00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:34,200 Speaker 1: end up being put in an asylum to get the way. 280 00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:39,040 Speaker 2: I think both of us might do a lot of screaming. 281 00:17:39,359 --> 00:17:46,640 Speaker 1: And yeah, So anyway, whatever is happening on your weekend, 282 00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:49,600 Speaker 1: boy do I hope it's better than anything that we 283 00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:50,720 Speaker 1: talked about in. 284 00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:51,640 Speaker 2: This week's episode. 285 00:17:52,119 --> 00:17:56,040 Speaker 1: Yes, please, And you know, if you can take a 286 00:17:56,040 --> 00:17:58,679 Speaker 1: little moment for yourself, I hope you get to do that. 287 00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:03,439 Speaker 1: We will be back with a Saturday Classic tomorrow and 288 00:18:03,560 --> 00:18:12,119 Speaker 1: we will have something brand new on Monday. Stuff you 289 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:15,280 Speaker 1: Missed in History Class is a production of iHeartRadio. For 290 00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:19,840 Speaker 1: more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio, app, Apple podcasts, 291 00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:21,959 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.