1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:05,359 Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised. 2 00:00:10,480 --> 00:00:11,879 Speaker 1: So here's why this bud. 3 00:00:13,080 --> 00:00:15,400 Speaker 2: No, that's one of its. 4 00:00:17,040 --> 00:00:19,319 Speaker 1: So there can't be that many that have that little born, 5 00:00:19,520 --> 00:00:19,959 Speaker 1: right is? 6 00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:23,000 Speaker 3: I think these are too big? 7 00:00:23,079 --> 00:00:27,000 Speaker 4: Bag? That's not that one. 8 00:00:28,760 --> 00:00:32,519 Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's kind of tall and skinning out. God, 9 00:00:32,560 --> 00:00:37,200 Speaker 1: there's a whole other weekspe My twelve year old daughter 10 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:41,120 Speaker 1: and I spent some time over Christmas break searching through 11 00:00:41,360 --> 00:00:46,159 Speaker 1: the very old Mount Calvary cemetery in Austin. Have you 12 00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:47,960 Speaker 1: ever wandered through a cemetery? I think is the person 13 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:50,600 Speaker 1: I've taken you to a cemetery? Yeah, I usually don't 14 00:00:50,600 --> 00:00:59,120 Speaker 1: go too Okay, just see this looks not. 15 00:00:59,240 --> 00:00:59,920 Speaker 5: So far off. 16 00:01:00,480 --> 00:01:06,440 Speaker 1: So look, look what years these are? Fifty six twenty four. 17 00:01:06,680 --> 00:01:09,759 Speaker 1: I think we need to go to an older area 18 00:01:09,959 --> 00:01:14,639 Speaker 1: for she died in eighteen ninety six. In the summer 19 00:01:14,680 --> 00:01:18,160 Speaker 1: of eighteen ninety six, Annie powers Bert and her two 20 00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:22,479 Speaker 1: little girls, Lucille and Eleanor were buried here in their 21 00:01:22,520 --> 00:01:25,520 Speaker 1: family's plot. I'd like to find it because I think 22 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:29,600 Speaker 1: it's important to acknowledge that in crime stories, we often 23 00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:33,360 Speaker 1: don't pay enough attention to the victims. The killers take 24 00:01:33,400 --> 00:01:37,479 Speaker 1: over the narrative, and the victims and survivors become props, 25 00:01:37,520 --> 00:01:42,080 Speaker 1: not central characters. When true crime fans listen to my stories, 26 00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:45,440 Speaker 1: yes they hear about the killers, but they also learn 27 00:01:45,480 --> 00:01:49,480 Speaker 1: about history and families and victims and the ties that 28 00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:54,200 Speaker 1: make these crimes relevant. Now why am I telling a 29 00:01:54,240 --> 00:01:58,000 Speaker 1: story from eighteen ninety six? Now what can we learn 30 00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:02,200 Speaker 1: from it? Now? We can do better in this space. 31 00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:05,920 Speaker 1: We can unravel a fascinating story about a crime, but 32 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:10,040 Speaker 1: not at the expense of the victims. That's what I 33 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:17,960 Speaker 1: tried to do here. My daughter loves a challenge, and 34 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:21,119 Speaker 1: we've been wandering around the cemetery in the cold for 35 00:02:21,160 --> 00:02:24,400 Speaker 1: more than an hour before we finally have some luck. 36 00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:28,480 Speaker 1: See these all look old. This must be their old section, 37 00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:33,280 Speaker 1: Are you sure? Oh yeah? 38 00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:35,080 Speaker 2: What's her name again? 39 00:02:35,160 --> 00:02:37,040 Speaker 1: An Sanna Powers? 40 00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:38,200 Speaker 2: Stanna Powers? 41 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:43,720 Speaker 6: Yay, wait, this looks exactly. 42 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:46,360 Speaker 3: I found it here. 43 00:02:56,600 --> 00:02:57,120 Speaker 5: You did it? 44 00:02:57,240 --> 00:02:59,720 Speaker 1: So they will be all parried together. Here are the kids, 45 00:02:59,760 --> 00:03:05,640 Speaker 1: see Eleanor and Lucille. So it's two girls and the mom. 46 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:07,120 Speaker 6: Why would he do that? 47 00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:07,840 Speaker 2: Don't know? 48 00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:18,160 Speaker 1: As I said at the beginning of this season, this 49 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:21,600 Speaker 1: isn't a who done it? But why did he do it? 50 00:03:22,200 --> 00:03:26,160 Speaker 1: Why did Eugene Bert suddenly snap and kill his wife 51 00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:30,400 Speaker 1: and his children? Especially why did he kill his children? 52 00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:38,440 Speaker 1: That part makes no sense to me. In July of 53 00:03:38,440 --> 00:03:42,040 Speaker 1: eighteen ninety six, Eugene Burt had left Austin on a 54 00:03:42,080 --> 00:03:45,000 Speaker 1: train bound for Dallas, and he hadn't been seen since. 55 00:03:45,480 --> 00:03:48,640 Speaker 1: Police believed he had murdered his young wife and their 56 00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:51,440 Speaker 1: two girls, a four year old toddler and an eighteen 57 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:55,400 Speaker 1: month old infant. Investigators were gathering physical evidence at the 58 00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:59,000 Speaker 1: Burt house in downtown Austin. They had reported to doctor 59 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:01,720 Speaker 1: Graves that there there was no blood to be found 60 00:04:01,880 --> 00:04:06,400 Speaker 1: anywhere in the house. Someone had cleaned the downstairs very well, 61 00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:10,600 Speaker 1: but investigators spent more time in the upstairs bedroom, where 62 00:04:10,600 --> 00:04:14,480 Speaker 1: they assumed the family had been killed, perhaps as they slept. 63 00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:19,480 Speaker 1: There was no blood there either, But historian Monica Ballard says, 64 00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:22,160 Speaker 1: then the police looked a little closer. 65 00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:25,919 Speaker 7: They thought, okay, well, where was this deed done? Because 66 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:28,680 Speaker 7: they weren't finding any blood anywhere, they went upstairs to 67 00:04:28,720 --> 00:04:32,880 Speaker 7: the bedroom and finally took a piece of cloth and 68 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:36,320 Speaker 7: wet it and moved it across the floorboards and found 69 00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:39,880 Speaker 7: that there was blood seeped between the cracks of the floorboards. 70 00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:44,359 Speaker 1: This technique was the eighteen hundreds answer to luminol. And 71 00:04:44,440 --> 00:04:47,440 Speaker 1: investigators thought the blood told them what happened. 72 00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:51,680 Speaker 7: So he had killed them up there and dragged their 73 00:04:51,680 --> 00:04:54,640 Speaker 7: bodies downstairs, and then had gone back upstairs and cleaned 74 00:04:54,760 --> 00:04:57,440 Speaker 7: up the crime scene. And do they have any idea 75 00:04:57,480 --> 00:05:00,920 Speaker 7: about the order of things here? Probably the children first 76 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:02,080 Speaker 7: and then her. 77 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:05,640 Speaker 1: And this is where that crate comes in, the one 78 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:09,080 Speaker 1: he shipped to Houston with a false address, just a 79 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:11,560 Speaker 1: reminder of all the evidence they found inside. 80 00:05:11,839 --> 00:05:15,160 Speaker 7: It wasn't until they tracked down the cases that had 81 00:05:15,160 --> 00:05:17,960 Speaker 7: been sent to Houston. They found on the trash pile 82 00:05:18,080 --> 00:05:20,960 Speaker 7: a packing slit with the address so Berta just made 83 00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:23,120 Speaker 7: up a name. Oh, mister so and so was going 84 00:05:23,200 --> 00:05:26,600 Speaker 7: to come and pick up these packing crates senat to Houston. 85 00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:29,320 Speaker 7: And when they located them, they sent them back to 86 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:33,360 Speaker 7: Austin and opened them up, and they found one bloody hatchet, 87 00:05:33,440 --> 00:05:39,520 Speaker 7: and clothes and curtains just sopped in blood and brain matter. 88 00:05:39,760 --> 00:05:42,240 Speaker 1: I thought that this was an odd way to dispose 89 00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:45,279 Speaker 1: of evidence. Why didn't Eugene just bury. 90 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:48,000 Speaker 7: Them no time, just throw them in a crate, send 91 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:51,200 Speaker 7: them off so they'll you know, they they they they 92 00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:54,119 Speaker 7: get a loss, they get abandoned, no one ever comes 93 00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:54,840 Speaker 7: to pick them up. 94 00:05:55,279 --> 00:05:59,919 Speaker 1: That's actually really smart. Eugene Burt was smart, even matick, 95 00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:03,320 Speaker 1: and he might get away with murder because it was 96 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:06,480 Speaker 1: so easy to be anonymous in the eighteen hundreds. You've 97 00:06:06,520 --> 00:06:09,200 Speaker 1: heard me say this before. In the nineteenth century, there 98 00:06:09,279 --> 00:06:13,760 Speaker 1: was no national identification system, no driver's licenses, no passports, 99 00:06:13,960 --> 00:06:17,080 Speaker 1: and most people had never even sat for a photograph. 100 00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:20,320 Speaker 1: In fact, there are no photos of Eugene Burt, at 101 00:06:20,400 --> 00:06:22,960 Speaker 1: least none that I could find. So it was very 102 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:25,880 Speaker 1: easy for him to slip away to another city, or 103 00:06:25,960 --> 00:06:32,760 Speaker 1: even another state, or even another country. And before the 104 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:35,920 Speaker 1: bodies of his wife and children were found that Tuesday, 105 00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:45,400 Speaker 1: Eugene had already arrived in another city. 106 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:52,880 Speaker 7: He gets off the train in Dallas, buys another ticket 107 00:06:52,920 --> 00:06:58,320 Speaker 7: for Saint Louis, and then another for Chicago. And when 108 00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:01,400 Speaker 7: he arrives in Chicago, he uses all the money that 109 00:07:01,440 --> 00:07:03,440 Speaker 7: he got from the Miller's for the sale of his 110 00:07:03,480 --> 00:07:06,600 Speaker 7: furniture and gets a hotel room at the New Brunswick 111 00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:09,880 Speaker 7: Hotel on Canal Street under the name of Bronson. 112 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:17,480 Speaker 1: Back in Austin, it was obvious that Eugene had vanished, 113 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:21,440 Speaker 1: which police found to be suspicious. But remember this was 114 00:07:21,560 --> 00:07:24,960 Speaker 1: early in the investigation. There were no witnesses, and any 115 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:29,160 Speaker 1: fingerprints that could be lifted and attributed to Eugene were inconsequential. 116 00:07:29,320 --> 00:07:32,360 Speaker 1: Since he lived in the house, of course his fingerprints 117 00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:35,200 Speaker 1: would be there, and the motive was still a mystery, 118 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:40,280 Speaker 1: especially for such brutal killings. Could a madman have done 119 00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:45,000 Speaker 1: this or might the servant girl annihilator be back after 120 00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:50,520 Speaker 1: ten years? Using an axe as a weapon seemed especially cruel. 121 00:07:50,960 --> 00:07:54,840 Speaker 1: It reminded investigators of the string of murders just eleven 122 00:07:54,960 --> 00:07:59,240 Speaker 1: years earlier. They thought that Eugene Burt was an annihilator, 123 00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:04,720 Speaker 1: a family annihilator. Could he, at age fifteen and sixteen, 124 00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:09,720 Speaker 1: have been responsible for those murders too? The weapons were 125 00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:14,440 Speaker 1: the same, a sharp axe. Could that really be a coincidence? 126 00:08:14,840 --> 00:08:18,960 Speaker 1: Two axe murderers? An axe feels very antiquated to me 127 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:21,320 Speaker 1: as a weapon. It's a heavy weapon that causes a 128 00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:23,920 Speaker 1: lot of blood spatter. You'd have to be close to 129 00:08:23,960 --> 00:08:27,200 Speaker 1: the victim, which could be risky. There are lots of 130 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:30,800 Speaker 1: easier ways to dispatch someone, so it's not a particularly 131 00:08:30,920 --> 00:08:34,920 Speaker 1: common weapon today. But in the late eighteen hundreds, it 132 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:39,400 Speaker 1: was much more common. Patricia Childs says that the weapon 133 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:43,000 Speaker 1: alone isn't enough to connect the Servant Girl murders to 134 00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:46,960 Speaker 1: what happened to Annie Burt and her two daughters. 135 00:08:47,559 --> 00:08:50,160 Speaker 5: Today, we wouldn't be thinking about the fact that you 136 00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:53,080 Speaker 5: would have an axe or a hatchet sitting around your 137 00:08:53,120 --> 00:08:56,320 Speaker 5: house because you had to chop wood to keep your 138 00:08:56,360 --> 00:08:59,280 Speaker 5: house warm. You know, today if somebody had an ax 139 00:08:59,400 --> 00:09:02,480 Speaker 5: sitting around and you'd think, wow, a little bit hmmm. 140 00:09:02,840 --> 00:09:06,400 Speaker 5: I remembered reading about the fact that he was described 141 00:09:06,440 --> 00:09:09,960 Speaker 5: as having been chopping some wood, and so that hatchet 142 00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:13,160 Speaker 5: could have been just sitting handy and someone else could 143 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:15,240 Speaker 5: have picked it up and done the deed. 144 00:09:15,880 --> 00:09:18,480 Speaker 1: Everyone had an axe in the eighteen hundreds because everybody 145 00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:19,120 Speaker 1: burned wood. 146 00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:22,360 Speaker 5: I can see why people want to think and if, 147 00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:25,160 Speaker 5: in fact he had been that murderer as. 148 00:09:25,040 --> 00:09:29,640 Speaker 1: Well, she's right. Police in eighteen ninety six wondered if 149 00:09:29,760 --> 00:09:34,920 Speaker 1: Eugene Bert was the Servant Girl annihilator. There were similarities 150 00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:37,839 Speaker 1: between the two killers, and it wasn't just that they 151 00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:43,680 Speaker 1: both used an axe. They both lobotomized their victims. Eugene 152 00:09:43,760 --> 00:09:47,520 Speaker 1: had stuck something through the brains of his daughters. The 153 00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:50,319 Speaker 1: servant girl Annihilator had done the same thing with some 154 00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:54,080 Speaker 1: of his victims. Eugene had practiced that technique on his 155 00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:58,040 Speaker 1: brother's bunny when Eugene was a child, and of course 156 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:01,360 Speaker 1: Eugene was at the scene of the second to last murder. 157 00:10:01,920 --> 00:10:05,120 Speaker 1: He had actually discovered the acts and delivered it to 158 00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:09,320 Speaker 1: his father and the police. It's clear that there was 159 00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:13,000 Speaker 1: some sort of connection between the cases, but the idea 160 00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:17,120 Speaker 1: that Eugene was the servant girl annihilator feels a little flimsy. 161 00:10:17,840 --> 00:10:21,200 Speaker 1: And most importantly, the experts that I've spoken with say 162 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:23,640 Speaker 1: it's very unlikely that a fifteen year old would be 163 00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:28,080 Speaker 1: clever enough to murder eight people without leaving behind any 164 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:32,800 Speaker 1: forensic evidence except for footprints before vanishing. And then there 165 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:35,840 Speaker 1: was that gap of eleven years without any murders that 166 00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:39,240 Speaker 1: could be connected to Eugene before he killed his family. 167 00:10:40,080 --> 00:10:43,480 Speaker 1: What would have stopped him. We know that serial killers 168 00:10:43,480 --> 00:10:46,160 Speaker 1: do have a cooling off period. Some of them have 169 00:10:46,559 --> 00:10:51,160 Speaker 1: very long gaps in between murders. Life circumstances change, they 170 00:10:51,160 --> 00:10:55,480 Speaker 1: get married, or they have children, or they move. Some 171 00:10:55,640 --> 00:10:59,120 Speaker 1: serial killers come to terms with the realization that actually 172 00:10:59,240 --> 00:11:02,400 Speaker 1: killing a person and doesn't match up with their fantasies. 173 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:07,079 Speaker 1: Dennis Raider, the BTK killer, found it difficult to find 174 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:09,760 Speaker 1: time to murder when he had children and took on 175 00:11:09,880 --> 00:11:14,000 Speaker 1: more obligations at his job and his church. It suspected 176 00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:18,360 Speaker 1: that Joseph DiAngelo, the Golden State Killer, became too old 177 00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:21,680 Speaker 1: and frankly, he might have even been scared of being caught. 178 00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:26,160 Speaker 1: The cooling off period between murders is another characteristic that 179 00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:30,800 Speaker 1: distinguishes serial killers from all other types of murderers, but 180 00:11:30,920 --> 00:11:35,840 Speaker 1: they might begin killing again when they're psychologically compelled to. Still, 181 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:38,840 Speaker 1: would a fifteen year old like Eugene Burt have been 182 00:11:38,920 --> 00:11:42,640 Speaker 1: able to get away with being a prolific serial killer. 183 00:11:44,080 --> 00:11:48,720 Speaker 1: Probably not, but those murders from eighteen eighty five might 184 00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:53,880 Speaker 1: have influenced Eugene throughout his life. He was unlikely the 185 00:11:53,880 --> 00:11:57,800 Speaker 1: Servant Girl killer. But there is another possibility, one that 186 00:11:57,840 --> 00:12:00,920 Speaker 1: we touched on earlier. How the care of the Servant 187 00:12:00,920 --> 00:12:06,440 Speaker 1: Girl Annihilator intersected with Eugene Burt's story. Patricia Childs brings 188 00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:09,800 Speaker 1: up her own theory, which is more of a query 189 00:12:10,040 --> 00:12:14,160 Speaker 1: about Eugene's father, doctor William Burt. He had died a 190 00:12:14,280 --> 00:12:17,160 Speaker 1: decade before his son became a suspect in the murders 191 00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:18,280 Speaker 1: of his own family. 192 00:12:19,800 --> 00:12:24,680 Speaker 5: Let's see, okay, Jean's father had been dead ten years. 193 00:12:25,240 --> 00:12:28,400 Speaker 5: Has anybody ever wondered, now this is dark? Are you 194 00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:31,760 Speaker 5: ready for this? Has anybody ever wondered if the father 195 00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:35,719 Speaker 5: is the one who committed the servant girl murders, and 196 00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:40,720 Speaker 5: that Jeane knew that because he recognized this hidden side 197 00:12:40,760 --> 00:12:43,160 Speaker 5: of his father, because he knew it all too well 198 00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:47,240 Speaker 5: within himself, because his father died in July of eighteen 199 00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:51,800 Speaker 5: eighty six, and the murders were eighteen eighty four and 200 00:12:51,880 --> 00:12:53,280 Speaker 5: eighteen eighty five, right. 201 00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:56,520 Speaker 1: I wondered about that because as a city physician, doctor 202 00:12:56,520 --> 00:13:01,439 Speaker 1: Burt was at every single crime scene of those murders. 203 00:13:01,520 --> 00:13:06,040 Speaker 5: It immediately struck me also that that Gene may have 204 00:13:06,280 --> 00:13:10,680 Speaker 5: somehow sensed, you know, because with all of the negative, 205 00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:16,079 Speaker 5: highly energized and perhaps overly functioning nerves that he had, 206 00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:19,319 Speaker 5: he could have been sensitized in other ways. I think 207 00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:21,920 Speaker 5: he might have picked up on the fact that something 208 00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:24,640 Speaker 5: was going on with his father, and he may have 209 00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:28,280 Speaker 5: carried that and he couldn't carry it anymore, and maybe 210 00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:29,320 Speaker 5: he acted on it. 211 00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:38,520 Speaker 1: In previous episodes, we talked about how violent, disturbing childhood 212 00:13:38,520 --> 00:13:42,560 Speaker 1: experiences can shape the crimes of killers later in life. 213 00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:46,319 Speaker 1: Many serial killers were abused or neglected, or came from 214 00:13:46,559 --> 00:13:51,880 Speaker 1: unstable families. Some reported witnessing terrible things when they were young, 215 00:13:52,160 --> 00:13:56,720 Speaker 1: like sexual assaults. Instead of being traumatized by them, some 216 00:13:57,000 --> 00:14:01,920 Speaker 1: killers became fixated on those crimes throughout their lives, and 217 00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:07,720 Speaker 1: they eventually wanted to fulfill those fantasies. Patricia Childs wonders 218 00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:12,320 Speaker 1: about doctor William Burt. If Eugene's own father was a 219 00:14:12,360 --> 00:14:15,840 Speaker 1: serial killer when he was a teen and Eugene knew it, 220 00:14:15,960 --> 00:14:19,200 Speaker 1: you can imagine that he would have been impacted by that, 221 00:14:19,760 --> 00:14:22,720 Speaker 1: and then of course he had murdered his own family 222 00:14:22,840 --> 00:14:27,480 Speaker 1: in a similar way. But Patricia's son, Jeremy Childs, isn't 223 00:14:27,520 --> 00:14:28,120 Speaker 1: so sure. 224 00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:31,840 Speaker 4: I think my mom thought, maybe, you know, the elder 225 00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:36,080 Speaker 4: Bert might might have actually been the annihilator, but that 226 00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:38,720 Speaker 4: maybe taking it a step too far. But I definitely 227 00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:41,600 Speaker 4: think that that line of work set in play a 228 00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:46,200 Speaker 4: lifelong mental time bomb waiting to go off for Eugene 229 00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:49,280 Speaker 4: that ended up going off in eighteen ninety six. 230 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:53,680 Speaker 1: Okay, but we do know that many times when someone 231 00:14:53,720 --> 00:14:57,720 Speaker 1: becomes violent or abusive as an adult. It's because they 232 00:14:57,800 --> 00:15:01,200 Speaker 1: were hurt as a child. And there have definitely been 233 00:15:01,280 --> 00:15:04,400 Speaker 1: cases where an investigator or someone involved in a case 234 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:07,640 Speaker 1: turns out to be the main suspect. And that's why 235 00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:11,960 Speaker 1: Jeremy is reticent to completely dismiss his mother's theory about 236 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:14,480 Speaker 1: doctor William Burt being the killer. 237 00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:19,080 Speaker 4: There's a whole lot of circumstantial evidence about doctor Burt's 238 00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:23,360 Speaker 4: possible involvement in the actual crimes themselves, not just investigating them. 239 00:15:23,480 --> 00:15:26,200 Speaker 4: You know, my mom has a and I'm not just 240 00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:28,920 Speaker 4: saying this as her son, but she has this just 241 00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:33,160 Speaker 4: uncanny intuition about things, and she picks up messages from 242 00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:36,280 Speaker 4: the universe in weird ways. You know, anything that she 243 00:15:36,360 --> 00:15:39,360 Speaker 4: ever says, whether it sounds you know, looney tunes or not, 244 00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:41,800 Speaker 4: I have to at least consider it, because she's right 245 00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:43,680 Speaker 4: more often than she's wrong. And I don't know where 246 00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:46,560 Speaker 4: she gets the messages from. But it's uncanny sometimes how 247 00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:47,240 Speaker 4: right she can be. 248 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:51,480 Speaker 1: But I think we can safely dismiss William Jefferson Burt 249 00:15:51,520 --> 00:15:53,880 Speaker 1: as a suspect in the murders. As we look through 250 00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:58,200 Speaker 1: a twenty first century lens, Authors like Skip Hollandsworth and J. R. 251 00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:02,080 Speaker 1: Galloway have done extensive research on the Servant Girl Annihilator case, 252 00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:05,000 Speaker 1: much more than I have. It's clear that there was 253 00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:09,000 Speaker 1: no circumstantial evidence linking doctor Burt to the murders other 254 00:16:09,080 --> 00:16:12,960 Speaker 1: than two things. Doctor Burt reported to each crime scene, 255 00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:16,760 Speaker 1: and the murders stopped after he died in July of 256 00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:20,840 Speaker 1: eighteen eighty six. But neither of those facts are convincing 257 00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:25,160 Speaker 1: to me in the least. When Patricia Childs brings up 258 00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:28,360 Speaker 1: William Jefferson Burt as a potential suspect, it's a way 259 00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:31,360 Speaker 1: for her to sort out why Eugene would have killed 260 00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:35,920 Speaker 1: his family. Was there something in Eugene's DNA something other 261 00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:40,200 Speaker 1: than mental illness. As we've said before, mental illness can't 262 00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:48,960 Speaker 1: be blamed in this case, something more was there. There 263 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:52,360 Speaker 1: had been other suspects in the Servant Girl Annihilator murders, 264 00:16:52,840 --> 00:16:55,600 Speaker 1: like the husbands of the last two victims. Both were 265 00:16:55,640 --> 00:17:00,640 Speaker 1: eventually freed, but one spent time in prison. First, Monica 266 00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:03,840 Speaker 1: Ballard tells me about some of the more widely known 267 00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:06,040 Speaker 1: theories that have floated around Austin. 268 00:17:07,080 --> 00:17:10,240 Speaker 7: There's this old wives tale that says that the reason 269 00:17:10,320 --> 00:17:12,960 Speaker 7: the killing stopped was that the guy found that he 270 00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:16,280 Speaker 7: was about to be captured, so he went across the 271 00:17:16,320 --> 00:17:19,320 Speaker 7: pond and took up killing again some eighteen months later 272 00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:20,520 Speaker 7: as Jack the Ripper. 273 00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:25,200 Speaker 1: But criminal profilers have dismissed that theory because the apparent 274 00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:29,359 Speaker 1: motives of the two killers seem very different. The Servant 275 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:33,080 Speaker 1: Girl annihilators sexually assaulted women and then butchered them with 276 00:17:33,119 --> 00:17:36,720 Speaker 1: an axe, and he killed a man too. Six of 277 00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:40,720 Speaker 1: the women were lobotomized. Jack the Ripper murdered five women 278 00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:44,800 Speaker 1: in eighteen eighty eight London. He also mutilated their bodies, 279 00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:49,639 Speaker 1: but the victims weren't sexually assaulted, none had been lobotomized, 280 00:17:49,880 --> 00:17:53,199 Speaker 1: and the way they were mutilated was different. Jack the 281 00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:57,000 Speaker 1: Ripper taunted police through letters, the Servant Girl killer did not. 282 00:17:57,600 --> 00:18:00,360 Speaker 1: As far as we know, there are just two many 283 00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:04,160 Speaker 1: loose ends, and it's because of this that, as I said, 284 00:18:04,600 --> 00:18:07,200 Speaker 1: the theory that the Servant Girl murderer and Jack the 285 00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:11,520 Speaker 1: Ripper were the same man is generally dismissed. A reminder 286 00:18:11,560 --> 00:18:14,960 Speaker 1: that the Servant Girl killer murdered people in his bare feet, 287 00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:18,120 Speaker 1: probably to reduce the amount of noise that boots would make. 288 00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:21,919 Speaker 1: Investigators noted the appearance of the footprints in the soil 289 00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:28,000 Speaker 1: at the scenes, the killer seemed to be missing a toe. 290 00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:31,080 Speaker 1: There are several pieces of circumstantial evidence in the case, 291 00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:34,600 Speaker 1: and because of that evidence, Monica Ballard says there was 292 00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:38,680 Speaker 1: a more likely suspect, and he wasn't a fledgling jack 293 00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:41,800 Speaker 1: the ripper. He was a local man with a history 294 00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:43,439 Speaker 1: of violence toward women. 295 00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:47,960 Speaker 7: His name was Nathan Elgin. The reason the killing stopped 296 00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:50,679 Speaker 7: was in February of eighteen eighty six, he was in 297 00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:53,560 Speaker 7: a bar in East Austin and he started slapping a 298 00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:56,560 Speaker 7: woman around and he was told stop it, and he 299 00:18:57,080 --> 00:19:01,200 Speaker 7: dragging a woman outside, continued beating her up, and men 300 00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:03,280 Speaker 7: came outside and told him to quit it. 301 00:19:03,359 --> 00:19:06,359 Speaker 1: And Nathan made the mistake of bringing a knife to 302 00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:07,000 Speaker 1: a gunfight. 303 00:19:07,119 --> 00:19:10,840 Speaker 7: Literally yeah, So he drew a knife, the other guys 304 00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:13,720 Speaker 7: drew a gun shot him dead, and when police did 305 00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:18,800 Speaker 7: the autopsy, they found that he was missing his little 306 00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:21,480 Speaker 7: toe from his left foot. And a detail that had 307 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:24,719 Speaker 7: never been released to the newspapers of the public was 308 00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:28,920 Speaker 7: that at the many crime scenes, when bare, bloody footprints 309 00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:31,679 Speaker 7: were found, that the left foot appeared to be missing 310 00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:32,560 Speaker 7: the little toe. 311 00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:36,080 Speaker 1: Is that the only evidence against him? Yes, witnesses had 312 00:19:36,119 --> 00:19:39,080 Speaker 1: seen what some had described as a black man at 313 00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:41,879 Speaker 1: the scene, but no one could definitively say it was 314 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:45,199 Speaker 1: Nathan Elgin. The reason I ask is because if the 315 00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:49,359 Speaker 1: footprints were the only forensic clues to tie Nathan Elgin 316 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:53,679 Speaker 1: to the murders, then that's a problem. We know that 317 00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:57,640 Speaker 1: footprints and handprints and fingerprints are many times not accurate. 318 00:19:58,119 --> 00:20:01,000 Speaker 1: The National Academy of Sciences wrote in its two thousand 319 00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:04,159 Speaker 1: and nine report that unless the specimen collected at the 320 00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:08,399 Speaker 1: scene is pristine, then you can't match it to a suspect. 321 00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:14,960 Speaker 1: It won't be accurate. Just because the killer's footprint appeared 322 00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:17,560 Speaker 1: to be missing a toe in the dirt or the 323 00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:22,520 Speaker 1: snow doesn't mean that print was accurate. Even if it 324 00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:26,440 Speaker 1: were accurate, people had missing toes and fingers and limbs 325 00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:30,080 Speaker 1: in the eighteen hundreds from all kinds of accidents involving 326 00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:36,520 Speaker 1: machinery or disease, or an axe they dropped when chopping wood. 327 00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:41,720 Speaker 1: And here's another issue. The crime rate in Austin was 328 00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:45,119 Speaker 1: high in eighteen eighty six. A lot of people were killed, 329 00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:49,280 Speaker 1: So Nathan Elgin's death after the Final Servant Girl murder 330 00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:53,640 Speaker 1: wasn't the only death, the real killer might have also died, 331 00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:57,240 Speaker 1: and many many men were violent, so the killing of 332 00:20:57,280 --> 00:21:00,120 Speaker 1: a violent man in eighteen eighty six doesn't surprise me 333 00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:04,120 Speaker 1: one little bit. If Nathan Elgin had actually been arrested 334 00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:06,760 Speaker 1: and put on trial for the Servant Girl murders, a 335 00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:10,800 Speaker 1: good defense attorney could really dismantle the district attorney's case. 336 00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:17,200 Speaker 1: Was Nathan Elgin guilty it seems likely, according to author J. R. Galloway, 337 00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:21,560 Speaker 1: But would he have been found guilty in court? Maybe 338 00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:25,359 Speaker 1: not if he had a good attorney. But Elgin was black, 339 00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:29,320 Speaker 1: so in Texas in eighteen eighty six, it's questionable if 340 00:21:29,359 --> 00:21:31,920 Speaker 1: he would have received a good attorney, and it's almost 341 00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:37,280 Speaker 1: certain Elgin would have been hanged Otherwise, the identity of 342 00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:41,919 Speaker 1: the Servant Girl annihilator will always remain uncertain, just like 343 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:59,960 Speaker 1: the identity of Jack the Ripper. In eighteen ninety six, 344 00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:04,439 Speaker 1: Austin police were certain that Eugene Burt was guilty of 345 00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:09,639 Speaker 1: murdering Anti Powers and their daughters, Lucille and Eleanor. Eugene 346 00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:13,359 Speaker 1: was in the wind, and as investigators collected evidence, it 347 00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:17,200 Speaker 1: seemed to them that Eugene had planned these murders in advance. 348 00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:19,760 Speaker 1: And that's certainly what it sounds like to me. 349 00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:21,119 Speaker 7: What are the other. 350 00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:23,399 Speaker 1: Things that point towards prementitid so, what happened? 351 00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:25,120 Speaker 7: He bought the hatchet, bought the hatchet? 352 00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:28,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, I wonder if the ticket out of town was 353 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:30,920 Speaker 1: a spur of the moment thing, But you could, I mean, 354 00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:31,920 Speaker 1: there's no way to trace that. 355 00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:35,560 Speaker 7: I guess the cases that he sent on the train earlier, 356 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:38,680 Speaker 7: he'd made up a name and sent them to Houston. 357 00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:42,040 Speaker 1: And Monica Ballard says there was more evidence. 358 00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:46,560 Speaker 7: Bert had been seen the day before the killings in 359 00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:49,240 Speaker 7: the backyard dragging a burlap sack. 360 00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:51,720 Speaker 1: What's so, how does that fit in? 361 00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:57,080 Speaker 7: Contained probably contained the hatchets and perhaps the wire that 362 00:22:57,160 --> 00:23:00,440 Speaker 7: he used to bind the hands and the feet of 363 00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:01,040 Speaker 7: the children. 364 00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:04,560 Speaker 1: This is clearly premeditative. Yeah, so why did he bind 365 00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:05,440 Speaker 1: the hands and the feet? 366 00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:06,520 Speaker 5: What would be the point of that? 367 00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:09,200 Speaker 7: I don't know. I don't know whether it was done 368 00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:12,959 Speaker 7: post mortem or beforehand. He had to have killed them 369 00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:13,800 Speaker 7: while they were sleeping. 370 00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:18,639 Speaker 1: That's probably why witnesses heard just one cry from a child. 371 00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:22,280 Speaker 1: Annie and the girls had been sleeping. There didn't seem 372 00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:25,240 Speaker 1: to be a fight or a struggle. Murder is rarely 373 00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:29,399 Speaker 1: rational to most people, particularly murders that aren't crimes of 374 00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:33,719 Speaker 1: passion but premeditated. But I still can't sort out why 375 00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:37,320 Speaker 1: he killed his four year old and eighteen month old daughters, 376 00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:40,320 Speaker 1: and why he likely killed them first. 377 00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:43,399 Speaker 4: He probably looked at them and they had witness painted 378 00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:46,080 Speaker 4: on their face rather than daughter, if you know, if 379 00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:49,080 Speaker 4: he had a mental break, and I think that's that's 380 00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:52,320 Speaker 4: a foregone conclusion in his case. And so in the 381 00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:57,199 Speaker 4: midst of swinging an axe into his wife's skull, I 382 00:23:57,240 --> 00:23:59,439 Speaker 4: can't imagine what his mental state would have been at 383 00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:02,600 Speaker 4: that time. And so if his daughters are witnessing this happening, 384 00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:06,600 Speaker 4: they're probably screaming late at night. You know, two little 385 00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:08,840 Speaker 4: girls certainly wake me up if I was their neighbors. 386 00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:17,880 Speaker 4: So uh, maybe I had to silence them. Who knows. 387 00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:23,760 Speaker 1: Domestic Court judge Dimple Mahultra believes that Eugenie's motive was 388 00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:28,119 Speaker 1: even more simple. His family was an obstacle to his 389 00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:28,640 Speaker 1: new life. 390 00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:32,560 Speaker 6: I imagine that his motivation there was just to get 391 00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:36,120 Speaker 6: rid of any and all evidence and really just go 392 00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:38,800 Speaker 6: on with his life, thinking that he wouldn't face any 393 00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:40,920 Speaker 6: consequences if he were to murder everyone. 394 00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:45,960 Speaker 1: We talked earlier about why these tragedies happen. Why would 395 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:49,800 Speaker 1: a father kill his children, his wife, or his parents. 396 00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:53,320 Speaker 1: But it's not just fathers who do it. I asked 397 00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:58,119 Speaker 1: forensic psychiatrist doctor Christine Montrose about the possible motivations for 398 00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:00,840 Speaker 1: mothers and fathers to murder their families. 399 00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:05,840 Speaker 3: Those tragedies happen for different reasons. They often happen out 400 00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:08,960 Speaker 3: of desperation, so at least for women, I think it 401 00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:11,840 Speaker 3: can be different with men. I think that you see rage, 402 00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:16,440 Speaker 3: like in custody battles or a furiate a wife and 403 00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:20,760 Speaker 3: the you know, the most substantial harm you can do 404 00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:23,000 Speaker 3: to your wife is to kill your children, you know. 405 00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:27,919 Speaker 3: I think you see rage and vengeance more in cases 406 00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:29,520 Speaker 3: where men kill their families. 407 00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:31,119 Speaker 1: What can be the motives for women? 408 00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:36,359 Speaker 3: When women kill their children, Very often it's a suicidal 409 00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:40,679 Speaker 3: mother who does not want her children to be to 410 00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:44,080 Speaker 3: go into the system and doesn't see a way for 411 00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:48,200 Speaker 3: her children to survive happily without her, or a woman 412 00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:52,679 Speaker 3: who's in an abusive relationship and knows that if she dies, 413 00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:55,000 Speaker 3: her children will be left with the abuser. 414 00:25:55,640 --> 00:26:00,000 Speaker 1: I asked doctor Montrose about female family annihilators like Annie 415 00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:03,320 Speaker 1: Yates in two thousand and one, she drowned her five 416 00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:04,679 Speaker 1: children in a bathtub. 417 00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:08,520 Speaker 3: You have cases, you know, really equally tragic, cases like 418 00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:12,400 Speaker 3: Andrea Yates, who was having what people have described as 419 00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:16,840 Speaker 3: postpartum psychosis, where she really believed that her children needed 420 00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:19,400 Speaker 3: to be killed before the age of accountability or else 421 00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:21,640 Speaker 3: they were going to suffer eternal damnation. 422 00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:23,120 Speaker 1: And that can be true for men too. 423 00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:26,480 Speaker 3: I do think that men who kill their families might 424 00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:30,320 Speaker 3: have those same factors. But also then you do tend 425 00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:35,640 Speaker 3: to see this additional category of sort of vengeance and rage. 426 00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:38,440 Speaker 1: So it sounds like men are more likely to kill 427 00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:41,840 Speaker 1: their families out of vengeance and rage than women are. 428 00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:46,800 Speaker 1: But why Eugene Burt murdered his family still be fuddled 429 00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:51,919 Speaker 1: investigators in eighteen ninety six. More importantly, they needed to 430 00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:59,080 Speaker 1: find him. Within days of murdering his family, Eugene Bert 431 00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:04,280 Speaker 1: had stepped off train in Chicago and began his new life. 432 00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:07,439 Speaker 1: He went to restaurants and walked around, almost like a 433 00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:12,280 Speaker 1: tourist would, until Eugene Burt turned a corner and became alarmed. 434 00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:17,359 Speaker 1: He observed someone observing him, someone who seems to be 435 00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:23,800 Speaker 1: following him around and this guy has the greatest name, Poindexter. 436 00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:27,520 Speaker 1: Poindexter knew Bert because he used to. 437 00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:29,880 Speaker 7: Live in Austin. He was a fruit seller. And so 438 00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:33,560 Speaker 7: Poindexter had heard from friends of his who still lived 439 00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:36,880 Speaker 7: in Austin and were keeping up with the news, and said, hey, 440 00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:40,720 Speaker 7: remember that guy Bert and that nice family, because by 441 00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:46,560 Speaker 7: then then the news was out. This was early August. 442 00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:49,639 Speaker 1: The men stared at each other for a moment until 443 00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:54,040 Speaker 1: Eugene walked off. Poindexter quickly found a police officer, and 444 00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:58,720 Speaker 1: very soon Eugene Bert's new life had taken a very 445 00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:03,640 Speaker 1: big detour. He was caught. Eugene became quiet. 446 00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:10,639 Speaker 7: Mister Poindexter sees him, points him out, and he is arrested. 447 00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:13,200 Speaker 7: He kind of denies everything at first, he says, no, no, 448 00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:17,560 Speaker 7: I'm mister Bronson. He eventually owns up to his identity, 449 00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:20,439 Speaker 7: but that's all he gives up is okay, yes, my 450 00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:25,159 Speaker 7: name is William Eugene Bird, and well, your wife and 451 00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:28,720 Speaker 7: children had been murdered. You're the prime suspect because you're 452 00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:31,720 Speaker 7: in Chicago when you're actually supposed to be in Dallas, 453 00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:35,760 Speaker 7: which is what you told everyone. And so they send 454 00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:39,239 Speaker 7: him on a train back to Austin. There was a 455 00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:43,120 Speaker 7: reporter from the Austin Weekly Statesman who got the plumb 456 00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:46,880 Speaker 7: interview of a lifetime. He gets on the train in 457 00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:51,000 Speaker 7: Elgin and has the opportunity to interview William On the 458 00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:54,680 Speaker 7: train ride back to Austin. He is just mister calm. 459 00:28:55,240 --> 00:29:01,080 Speaker 7: It's like nothing happened. He doesn't know anything about it. Oh, really, 460 00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:04,200 Speaker 7: is that what happened? He said, he won't say anything 461 00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:07,720 Speaker 7: about the case until he sees what the newspapers have 462 00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:08,200 Speaker 7: to say. 463 00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:11,000 Speaker 1: He doesn't have an emotional reaction to hearing that his 464 00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:12,760 Speaker 1: wife and his two daughters are dead. 465 00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:15,760 Speaker 7: No. No, And when he was asked about well why 466 00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:17,920 Speaker 7: did you leave? Why did you leave town? Why didn't 467 00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:21,720 Speaker 7: you go to Dallas? And he says, well, well, two reasons. One, 468 00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:24,400 Speaker 7: my brothers were going to rescind the bond on my 469 00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:27,720 Speaker 7: forgery charges, which meant that I would have been jailed. 470 00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:29,959 Speaker 7: That was the only reason that he gave. He had 471 00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:34,040 Speaker 7: two other reasons, but wouldn't give them and said, I'm 472 00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:37,200 Speaker 7: not going to say anything about anything until I see 473 00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:38,600 Speaker 7: what the newspapers have to say. 474 00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:39,440 Speaker 1: What does that mean? 475 00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:41,520 Speaker 7: Do you think I think he wanted to see what 476 00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:43,440 Speaker 7: they would say, so that he could get his story 477 00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:46,640 Speaker 7: to match or you know, make up some other story 478 00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:49,640 Speaker 7: or something like that. So by now it's August twenty second, 479 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:54,920 Speaker 7: eighteen ninety six, and yeah, when word spreads that William 480 00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:58,280 Speaker 7: Eugene Burt, who murdered his wife and two children, are 481 00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:00,920 Speaker 7: on the train going to be arriving the Austin station, 482 00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:07,000 Speaker 7: there is a huge crowd waiting at the train station. 483 00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:11,040 Speaker 7: Sheriff got wind of this, stops the train outside of town, 484 00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:15,640 Speaker 7: loads Eugene on a waiting hack. A cab takes him 485 00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:19,840 Speaker 7: the north route to the county jail, has him incarcerated 486 00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:22,640 Speaker 7: before the train even gets to the station, and everybody 487 00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:25,680 Speaker 7: finds out they pulled a little bit of a ruse there, 488 00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:28,360 Speaker 7: and it's probably good they did, because he might have 489 00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:31,520 Speaker 7: just been bodily yanked off that train and hanged. 490 00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:36,360 Speaker 1: The size of the crowd doesn't surprise me. We've seen 491 00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:40,520 Speaker 1: that throughout history people have tried to enforce vigilante justice 492 00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:43,560 Speaker 1: because they didn't trust the legal system or they knew 493 00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:47,360 Speaker 1: they were unlikely to be prosecuted for killing a suspected murderer. 494 00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:51,080 Speaker 1: In my book, All That Is Wicked, Edward Ruloff was 495 00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:55,240 Speaker 1: constantly frightened of mobs killing him after he was convicted 496 00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:58,440 Speaker 1: of killing a store clerk. They threatened to drag him 497 00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:01,440 Speaker 1: out of the Binghamton, New York jail and lynch him. 498 00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:05,000 Speaker 1: Public executions in the eighteen hundreds were always well attended. 499 00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:08,760 Speaker 1: Thousands of people came to Binghamton's town square in eighteen 500 00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:12,880 Speaker 1: seventy one to watch Edward Rulolph's execution. They sat with 501 00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:17,760 Speaker 1: picnic baskets as their children ran around. An escaped prisoner 502 00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:21,000 Speaker 1: actually stopped to watch the hanging while he was on 503 00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:23,760 Speaker 1: the run. Many of the people who tried to meet 504 00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:26,800 Speaker 1: Eugene Burt at the train station in eighteen ninety six 505 00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:30,920 Speaker 1: were simply glawkers, and there are plenty of those during 506 00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:36,760 Speaker 1: modern murder cases. Domestic court judge Dimple Mahultra says it's 507 00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:39,880 Speaker 1: human nature for people to try to understand what the 508 00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:44,920 Speaker 1: media would call a senseless crime committed by an unusual suspect. 509 00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:48,440 Speaker 1: They sometimes want to blame the victim because there had 510 00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:51,760 Speaker 1: to be a rational reason for why violence was inflicted 511 00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:52,760 Speaker 1: on them. 512 00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:56,400 Speaker 6: People want to somehow rationalize his behavior. It's really hard 513 00:31:56,400 --> 00:31:59,080 Speaker 6: to believe that someone would want to just hurt someone. 514 00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:01,440 Speaker 6: We want to find a reason, you know, and that 515 00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:04,080 Speaker 6: has always been my struggle with when you know, when 516 00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:06,080 Speaker 6: you pick a jury and people say, well, what did 517 00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:08,240 Speaker 6: she do? I just want to know what did she 518 00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:10,440 Speaker 6: do to provoke this? There had to be something. I 519 00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:13,840 Speaker 6: can't imagine that somebody would just do this unprovoked. 520 00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:17,560 Speaker 1: Once Eugene Burt arrived at the police station in Austin, 521 00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:23,520 Speaker 1: investigators began interrogating him with no luck. Eugene denied killing 522 00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:27,080 Speaker 1: his wife and his children, and soon his attorneys would 523 00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:30,880 Speaker 1: be the ones responding to the police. Roscoe and Silas 524 00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:34,120 Speaker 1: Burt were grief stricken. Their brother had always been a 525 00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:37,120 Speaker 1: liar and a swindler, they had even sent the law 526 00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:41,680 Speaker 1: after him. But a killer. He must have been insane, 527 00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:46,000 Speaker 1: they said. Roscoe and Silas hired a team of capable 528 00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:52,360 Speaker 1: lawyers to defend him, and they were very good. Bill 529 00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:55,680 Speaker 1: Allison is a retired law school professor and a seasoned 530 00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:58,840 Speaker 1: defense attorney who has worked on some of the country's 531 00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:03,040 Speaker 1: biggest cases. I asked him about defending someone like Eugene Burt, 532 00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:06,600 Speaker 1: Why would you do it in a case like this? 533 00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:09,880 Speaker 8: As someone who worked as a defense attorney for so long, 534 00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:14,680 Speaker 8: it must be unpleasant to defend someone who has done 535 00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:17,800 Speaker 8: something as heinous as kill a one year old and 536 00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:19,400 Speaker 8: a two year old and kill his wife and put 537 00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:20,440 Speaker 8: him in a well. 538 00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:24,080 Speaker 1: Essentially, how did you reconcile that. 539 00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:26,040 Speaker 9: That was my job and I like doing it. I 540 00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:28,880 Speaker 9: mean realizing that I was pretty much out there on 541 00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:31,200 Speaker 9: my own and that I was the only person who 542 00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:34,520 Speaker 9: could stand between this man and whatever the power of 543 00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:35,920 Speaker 9: the government could bring forward. 544 00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:38,680 Speaker 1: I asked Bill if he had ever said no to 545 00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:39,520 Speaker 1: a case. 546 00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:43,160 Speaker 9: That you make that decision early on in the case 547 00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:45,680 Speaker 9: and you go to the judge and say, I'm not 548 00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:48,560 Speaker 9: going to be able to represent this guy. I've done it. 549 00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:50,520 Speaker 5: Oh. 550 00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:55,560 Speaker 9: It was a child late seventies child sexual assault case 551 00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:58,840 Speaker 9: with a client who just consistently lied to me. And 552 00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:01,280 Speaker 9: you know, at first I thought, yeah, I can do 553 00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:04,040 Speaker 9: this case. And I just said, look, we're not doing this. 554 00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:05,440 Speaker 9: That's somebody else. 555 00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:09,520 Speaker 1: I imagine that Eugene Burt's attorneys might have had the 556 00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:13,759 Speaker 1: same struggle as they prepared their case. They began interviewing witnesses, 557 00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:17,960 Speaker 1: family members, and family friends about their client. What was 558 00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:21,680 Speaker 1: his childhood like, what about his mental health? Was he 559 00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:26,880 Speaker 1: legally insane? Doctor Christine Montrose says that it's important to 560 00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:31,839 Speaker 1: have competent mental health professionals evaluated defendant, but even with 561 00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:34,880 Speaker 1: that report, the answers aren't always clear. 562 00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:38,920 Speaker 3: Returning again to Andrea Yates, if you watch some of 563 00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:45,520 Speaker 3: the footage of her being interviewed after she has acknowledged 564 00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:49,080 Speaker 3: killing her kids, she is so what we would describe 565 00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:52,000 Speaker 3: in psychetter terms kind of blunted. You know, she has 566 00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:58,080 Speaker 3: such a limited range of emotional aspect. She appears completely 567 00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:02,560 Speaker 3: blase and disinterested in sort of shell shock. 568 00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:05,200 Speaker 1: So would you read that as someone who was psychotic. 569 00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:08,160 Speaker 3: The way that I would read that, having not evaluated 570 00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:10,560 Speaker 3: her in person, but just looking at the footage, is 571 00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:14,759 Speaker 3: that she's a deeply traumatized and b remain psychotic. I mean, 572 00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:18,440 Speaker 3: she's continuing to endorse these delusions and visions, and so 573 00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:22,360 Speaker 3: when you're internally preoccupied, you're also not responding to the 574 00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:25,520 Speaker 3: external world in the way that someone who's mentally wow 575 00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:27,239 Speaker 3: is responding to it. 576 00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:30,759 Speaker 1: But in eighteen ninety six, none of that might have 577 00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:35,120 Speaker 1: mattered to a jury. In the time period when judges 578 00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:39,040 Speaker 1: regularly handed down death sentences, there might have been little 579 00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:42,040 Speaker 1: empathy for his mental health state when he killed his family. 580 00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:46,319 Speaker 1: Are there any circumstances where a killer should go unpunished 581 00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:49,760 Speaker 1: and sent to a mental health facility for help instead, 582 00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:53,080 Speaker 1: as we know from some of our other seasons, the 583 00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:57,080 Speaker 1: answer seems to be yes. But Judge Dimple Maholtra says 584 00:35:57,360 --> 00:36:00,560 Speaker 1: that depravity against children is difficult for us, a jury 585 00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:02,120 Speaker 1: or a judge to understand. 586 00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:06,480 Speaker 6: It's hard to understand that kind of that level of 587 00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:11,560 Speaker 6: violence and disregard for human life. It is really difficult 588 00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:12,480 Speaker 6: to rationalize that. 589 00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:17,880 Speaker 1: As Eugene Bert's defense team prepared for his murder trial, 590 00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:22,920 Speaker 1: crowds waited outside the jail, ready to lynch him. The 591 00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:26,600 Speaker 1: prosecutor was confident that Eugene would be convicted of murdering 592 00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:30,239 Speaker 1: his wife and children. The Powers family was anxious to 593 00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:35,240 Speaker 1: see him not just get convicted, but executed. Eugene's brothers 594 00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:39,200 Speaker 1: knew that he was troubled, that he needed help, but 595 00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:42,760 Speaker 1: they didn't want to see him hanged. What would happen 596 00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:47,120 Speaker 1: with Eugene Burt. Would he admit to murdering his family 597 00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:56,520 Speaker 1: and would Annie's family ever get justice? It's complicated. On 598 00:36:56,600 --> 00:36:59,919 Speaker 1: the last episode of this season of tenfold More Wicked 599 00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:02,520 Speaker 1: one exactly right. 600 00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:09,680 Speaker 7: He would flutter his eyelids, closed, and he would remain 601 00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:14,040 Speaker 7: in that state until everything was done and court was dismissed. 602 00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:15,319 Speaker 9: Eyes. 603 00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:17,960 Speaker 7: He just closed his eyes the whole time, and there 604 00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:23,280 Speaker 7: would be no indication that he was cognizant of anything 605 00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:26,239 Speaker 7: that was going on. No one was entirely sure. He 606 00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:30,239 Speaker 7: seemed to have absolutely no there was nothing going on. 607 00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:35,080 Speaker 2: You don't have to fit into a dism category or 608 00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:38,680 Speaker 2: axis to be a terrible person and do terrible things. 609 00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:41,800 Speaker 2: They're not schizophrenic and they're not any of those things. 610 00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:45,560 Speaker 2: They're just goddamn mean people and do bad things. 611 00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:49,200 Speaker 4: So it seems pretty cut and dry, and they have 612 00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:52,200 Speaker 4: all the evidence that they need. However, the judge that 613 00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:55,680 Speaker 4: oversees the trial says, wait a second, we kind of 614 00:37:55,719 --> 00:37:59,040 Speaker 4: puts the brakes on things, and he wants to investigate 615 00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:04,960 Speaker 4: Eugene birds men capacity. 616 00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:09,319 Speaker 1: If you love a good, real ghost story, my new 617 00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:13,120 Speaker 1: audiobook original The Ghost Club is available for pre order 618 00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:16,839 Speaker 1: now wherever audiobooks are sold. I can't wait to tell 619 00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:20,600 Speaker 1: you the real story about the world's most famous ghost hunter, 620 00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:24,360 Speaker 1: who was the head of the world's most famous ghost club, 621 00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:30,280 Speaker 1: and how he investigated England's most famous haunted house. Please 622 00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:33,320 Speaker 1: also check out my new book all that is wicked. 623 00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:38,920 Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right tenfold more media production 624 00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:45,440 Speaker 1: producers Jason Whaling, Alexis Mrosi and Natalie Wrinn. Editors Jason Whaling, 625 00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:50,840 Speaker 1: David Fabello and Kate Winkler Dawson researcher Kate Winkler Dawson, 626 00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:56,440 Speaker 1: sound designer Eric Friend, composer Curtis Heath. Artwork by Nick Toga. 627 00:38:56,880 --> 00:39:01,560 Speaker 1: Executive producers Georgia Hartstark, Karen kil Gareff and Daniel Kramer. 628 00:39:02,080 --> 00:39:05,400 Speaker 1: Follow us on Instagram and Facebook at tenfold war Wicked 629 00:39:05,520 --> 00:39:08,680 Speaker 1: and on Twitter at tenfold war And If you know 630 00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:12,160 Speaker 1: of a historical crime that could use some attention, especially 631 00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:15,480 Speaker 1: if it happened in your family, email us at info 632 00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:25,560 Speaker 1: at Tenfoldwarwicked dot com