1 00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:16,880 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. What a horrific scenario, every 2 00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:21,479 Speaker 1: parent's worst nightmare come true. Two little boys, one just 3 00:00:21,560 --> 00:00:27,560 Speaker 1: fourteen months old, one three years old, carjack and kidnapped. 4 00:00:28,760 --> 00:00:32,720 Speaker 1: That is the scene that unfolds on a rural road. 5 00:00:40,159 --> 00:00:49,160 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Yes, okay, there's a lady 6 00:00:49,360 --> 00:00:53,440 Speaker 1: you come on about gold and some guy jumped into 7 00:00:53,479 --> 00:00:55,960 Speaker 1: a red light with her car with her two kids 8 00:00:55,960 --> 00:00:57,600 Speaker 1: in it, and he's took golf with he and she 9 00:00:57,680 --> 00:00:59,840 Speaker 1: got out of car here at Ohio and he's got 10 00:00:59,840 --> 00:01:02,240 Speaker 1: to just mail me at her call. I don't you 11 00:01:02,440 --> 00:01:05,240 Speaker 1: ruth sparcle, And so I need to go along, getle 12 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:08,880 Speaker 1: down here and the car is what we need to done. 13 00:01:08,600 --> 00:01:13,880 Speaker 1: And we can't ask us a margdow protege. What color 14 00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:18,840 Speaker 1: was it? A burgundy margdo proteje. Don't get them going pay? 15 00:01:18,880 --> 00:01:21,480 Speaker 1: They got two kids? How wold get them going? Pam, 16 00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:24,640 Speaker 1: they got two kids? You hear that from the nine 17 00:01:24,680 --> 00:01:29,720 Speaker 1: on one dispatch. Take a listen to more and one 18 00:01:29,720 --> 00:01:34,360 Speaker 1: of those five, one of five gohead. I said it 19 00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:38,920 Speaker 1: was a black mail driving a burgundy protege affirmative. One 20 00:01:39,080 --> 00:01:44,000 Speaker 1: time he had two juvenile avoid him. One at five 21 00:01:44,040 --> 00:01:47,800 Speaker 1: for one understood these are small children. These are her children, 22 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:49,720 Speaker 1: and she jumped out of the car and he took 23 00:01:49,800 --> 00:01:52,440 Speaker 1: the car with the children and he's headed toward Chester 24 00:01:53,280 --> 00:01:56,680 Speaker 1: and one one hundred cohead or the victim of the prospect. 25 00:01:56,800 --> 00:02:00,360 Speaker 1: It's called the Playing Family one hundred home one. I 26 00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:03,160 Speaker 1: gathered by the call. They are not This is a 27 00:02:03,240 --> 00:02:07,000 Speaker 1: stranger that had jumped in the lady's car at a 28 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:11,360 Speaker 1: red light and she jumped out. Wow. Let me introduce 29 00:02:11,440 --> 00:02:14,079 Speaker 1: you and I'll star panel to make sense of the situation. 30 00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:19,560 Speaker 1: First of all, Matthew Mengino, veteran trial lawyer, former district attorney, 31 00:02:19,919 --> 00:02:23,760 Speaker 1: also former Pennsylvania Board a pardoner and parole member. Author 32 00:02:23,800 --> 00:02:29,240 Speaker 1: of The Executioner's Toll. Wow. Matthew Mangino joining me and 33 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:32,880 Speaker 1: you can find him at Matthew T. Mangino or matt 34 00:02:32,919 --> 00:02:37,960 Speaker 1: Mangino dot com. Doctor Joy cross In, police psychologist, author 35 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:43,800 Speaker 1: of Operation SS Practical recommendations to help stop officers suicide. 36 00:02:44,400 --> 00:02:48,720 Speaker 1: Doctor Tim Gallagher, the medical examiner for the entire state 37 00:02:48,800 --> 00:02:51,760 Speaker 1: of Florida, and you can find doctor Gallagher or doctor 38 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:56,200 Speaker 1: g as he is called at PATHCAREMD dot com. Dan Scott, 39 00:02:56,520 --> 00:03:01,239 Speaker 1: former La County share a sergeant twenty six years with 40 00:03:01,360 --> 00:03:05,200 Speaker 1: Special Victims of Bureau and Christie, Missouri, Emmy Award winning 41 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:09,520 Speaker 1: investigative reporter and now President of Successful Strategies PR and 42 00:03:09,639 --> 00:03:15,200 Speaker 1: Crisis Communications firm, speaking of a crisis the reality when 43 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:19,240 Speaker 1: you look at this, to doctor Georry Crows and police psychologists, 44 00:03:19,639 --> 00:03:25,680 Speaker 1: it is statistically very rare for not a carjacking to happen, 45 00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:28,840 Speaker 1: That happens all the time, but a carjacking to happen 46 00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:34,640 Speaker 1: with two children inside. Wasn't a great while to hear 47 00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:38,160 Speaker 1: about a baby asleep in the back, but not two 48 00:03:38,240 --> 00:03:41,520 Speaker 1: children in car seats, because that would be very obvious. 49 00:03:41,560 --> 00:03:45,720 Speaker 1: I would think, right, yes, And carjacking wasn't even a term. 50 00:03:46,280 --> 00:03:49,400 Speaker 1: This first came out as a kidnapping. The car just 51 00:03:49,760 --> 00:03:52,920 Speaker 1: was kind of a secondary thing, and then carjacking developed 52 00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:55,000 Speaker 1: out of this. Yeah, you know what, you're right. Let 53 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:57,280 Speaker 1: me follow up on that. To Dan Scott, former La 54 00:03:57,320 --> 00:04:01,480 Speaker 1: County Sheriff sergeant, twenty six years, Special Victims Bureau, Dan's 55 00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:05,440 Speaker 1: kind of mean. Statistically, when you get a carjack, and 56 00:04:05,440 --> 00:04:10,440 Speaker 1: I prosecuted men many carjacks. They can happen almost anywhere, 57 00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:13,840 Speaker 1: at a red light, they can happen at a stop sign. 58 00:04:14,920 --> 00:04:18,960 Speaker 1: I was saying a rural area, it's less likely because 59 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:20,680 Speaker 1: just think about it, you're in a rural area. What 60 00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:22,479 Speaker 1: are you gonna do as the carjacker, just wait for 61 00:04:22,520 --> 00:04:26,120 Speaker 1: a car to come by. But for a carjacking to 62 00:04:26,279 --> 00:04:30,560 Speaker 1: happen with two children obviously strapped in ah, why does 63 00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:33,600 Speaker 1: the carjack or does a carjacker want the children? All 64 00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:36,760 Speaker 1: they want is the car to chop. Definitely, they do 65 00:04:36,839 --> 00:04:40,120 Speaker 1: not want children. They know it's gonna draw more attention 66 00:04:40,279 --> 00:04:42,640 Speaker 1: and they know the cops are gonna be after them 67 00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:47,119 Speaker 1: getting fold If there's kids in the car, they want 68 00:04:47,160 --> 00:04:50,680 Speaker 1: the car. They sure don't want a babysit kids. Man, 69 00:04:50,800 --> 00:04:55,039 Speaker 1: you're not kidding, but Matthew Maino, I mean you're a 70 00:04:55,040 --> 00:05:00,080 Speaker 1: former prosecutor and now trial lawyer, veteran criminal defense attorney. 71 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:04,400 Speaker 1: The reality is criminals very often, I would say majority 72 00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:08,200 Speaker 1: of the time, don't think. If they're thinking, they wouldn't 73 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:11,880 Speaker 1: commit the crime to start with. So here we are 74 00:05:11,880 --> 00:05:15,440 Speaker 1: trying to apply logic to the mind of a criminal. 75 00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:18,120 Speaker 1: I mean, if criminals thought it through, why would they 76 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:19,839 Speaker 1: go into a bank and try to rob it? I mean, 77 00:05:20,520 --> 00:05:23,359 Speaker 1: it doesn't make sense, right, It doesn't make sense and 78 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:28,200 Speaker 1: you know, unfortunately, this is a crime of opportunity. You 79 00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:31,360 Speaker 1: see this car, You're you're gonna car Jackie, You're gonna 80 00:05:31,360 --> 00:05:34,360 Speaker 1: pull the woman out. You don't realize there's children there, 81 00:05:34,440 --> 00:05:37,000 Speaker 1: maybe immediately, but you don't. You don't continue to drive 82 00:05:37,040 --> 00:05:39,000 Speaker 1: off with them. I mean, you drive to a point 83 00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:41,880 Speaker 1: where you can leave the car, leave the children safe, 84 00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:45,520 Speaker 1: and get out of the car. You're right now, You're right, 85 00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:48,839 Speaker 1: mat think that's typically what happens, because we hear about it, 86 00:05:48,880 --> 00:05:51,599 Speaker 1: like mom goes to a QT or something, gets gas, 87 00:05:51,720 --> 00:05:55,000 Speaker 1: runs into pay and the car gets taken and then 88 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:56,920 Speaker 1: they find oh, dear lord, and have there's a baby 89 00:05:56,960 --> 00:05:59,479 Speaker 1: in the back. They usually pull the car over and bail. 90 00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:04,479 Speaker 1: You're right, Matthew, right in this scenario is really, you know, 91 00:06:04,600 --> 00:06:09,560 Speaker 1: every mother's nightmare. It's gut wretching to think that my 92 00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:12,479 Speaker 1: children are in the car with a guy with a gun. 93 00:06:13,480 --> 00:06:16,920 Speaker 1: You know, so this everybody can feel the pain. Well, 94 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:23,719 Speaker 1: you're both absolutely correct. I will take the fifth on 95 00:06:23,839 --> 00:06:28,719 Speaker 1: a charge that I ran in at a gas station 96 00:06:28,960 --> 00:06:32,560 Speaker 1: and grab something and came back out. I'm not going 97 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:37,839 Speaker 1: to admit it or deny it. It may have happened once, 98 00:06:38,880 --> 00:06:44,200 Speaker 1: and then I may have thought. What am I thinking? Yes, 99 00:06:44,320 --> 00:06:46,080 Speaker 1: the car's right there, Yes I can see it. But 100 00:06:46,120 --> 00:06:49,719 Speaker 1: what if some nut comes against that car? I mean 101 00:06:49,760 --> 00:06:53,880 Speaker 1: it could happen. It's not beyond the realm of possibility. 102 00:06:54,440 --> 00:06:57,640 Speaker 1: I mean the threat that somebody could take your car 103 00:06:58,040 --> 00:07:02,120 Speaker 1: with your child in it. I mean, it does happen. 104 00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:06,360 Speaker 1: So how does this whole thing unfold? How does mommy 105 00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:10,280 Speaker 1: get yanked out of the car and some freak takes 106 00:07:10,360 --> 00:07:15,160 Speaker 1: off with her car and her two children inside? To Christy, Missourich. 107 00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:21,000 Speaker 1: Many people, many legal eagles, believe that mommy is yanked 108 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:24,000 Speaker 1: out of the car at a stop sign, perp gets 109 00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:28,680 Speaker 1: in and takes off. But is it correct that mommy's 110 00:07:28,680 --> 00:07:31,520 Speaker 1: actually in the vehicle with the perp and drives a 111 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:35,520 Speaker 1: few minutes before she's kicked out. So it's nut is 112 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:41,000 Speaker 1: in the car. So it's not exactly a one minute scenario. 113 00:07:41,800 --> 00:07:45,320 Speaker 1: It's more like ten minutes that mommy has a chance 114 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:49,800 Speaker 1: to look at the guy that takes her children. Take 115 00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:52,520 Speaker 1: a listen to this. Please let me take on me. 116 00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:54,640 Speaker 1: He said, no, we didn't have time because they want 117 00:07:54,760 --> 00:07:56,520 Speaker 1: in car seats and it was gonna take time for 118 00:07:56,600 --> 00:07:57,880 Speaker 1: me to get Hi out of the car seat. And 119 00:07:58,880 --> 00:08:02,360 Speaker 1: please tell me so but I hurt so called, but 120 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:07,280 Speaker 1: he had a gun. And my big thing is they 121 00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:11,600 Speaker 1: were screaming, holland and crying, and I'm just scared that 122 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:28,800 Speaker 1: he just thought his patience crime stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, 123 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:32,240 Speaker 1: for those of you just joining us, how do two 124 00:08:32,360 --> 00:08:36,880 Speaker 1: children get carjack kidnapped and mommy kicked out of the 125 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:40,480 Speaker 1: car And here where you're hearing mommy, stay, this was 126 00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:44,839 Speaker 1: no accident. The carjacker knew the children were in the car. 127 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:49,200 Speaker 1: And that's a very, very different scenarios. Straight out to 128 00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:54,160 Speaker 1: Matthew Mangino, a veteran trial lawyer joining me out of Pennsylvania. Matthew, 129 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:58,640 Speaker 1: that's a different scenario. Many people, many legal eagles and analysts, 130 00:08:58,679 --> 00:09:01,960 Speaker 1: believe mommy just yanked out of the car at a 131 00:09:02,120 --> 00:09:05,440 Speaker 1: stop sign and the part takes off in the car, 132 00:09:05,640 --> 00:09:08,679 Speaker 1: not realizing there are children in the car. That's not correct. 133 00:09:08,720 --> 00:09:11,840 Speaker 1: She's just leaving shopping at a Walmart. She's at a 134 00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:16,320 Speaker 1: red light, which tells me they're substantially more traffic, and 135 00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:20,200 Speaker 1: it's not exactly the rural area we first thought, and 136 00:09:20,640 --> 00:09:23,720 Speaker 1: that the part drove around for ten minutes with Mommy 137 00:09:23,840 --> 00:09:26,520 Speaker 1: in the car. And knows full well there are two 138 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:30,000 Speaker 1: children in the car. This is no accident. Right, it's 139 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:33,080 Speaker 1: not an accident. And if I were investigating, as my 140 00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:37,120 Speaker 1: antennas would would begin to go up immediately. I mean, 141 00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:41,599 Speaker 1: you're going to leave your children in that vehicle? H 142 00:09:41,880 --> 00:09:45,760 Speaker 1: double l No, that is not happening, Matthew Mangino. But right, 143 00:09:46,360 --> 00:09:48,640 Speaker 1: and you're not going to plead for their release. You know, 144 00:09:48,920 --> 00:09:51,760 Speaker 1: as we said a moment ago, you know, criminals want 145 00:09:51,760 --> 00:09:54,160 Speaker 1: a vehicle, they don't want two children in a vehicle. 146 00:09:54,960 --> 00:09:57,000 Speaker 1: You know, you pull the side of the road, Mom, 147 00:09:57,040 --> 00:09:58,840 Speaker 1: gets your kids out of here before I shoot you. 148 00:09:59,160 --> 00:10:02,000 Speaker 1: That's the scenario that you would think would happen. But 149 00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:05,000 Speaker 1: that's not what we hear from this one. That is 150 00:10:05,040 --> 00:10:10,120 Speaker 1: not what we're hearing. And the other reality is that 151 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:16,120 Speaker 1: we have to accept carjackings have happened with children in 152 00:10:16,200 --> 00:10:19,960 Speaker 1: the car and the driver didn't know it. But here 153 00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:24,040 Speaker 1: he's taken on just a car, but two babies too. 154 00:10:24,800 --> 00:10:27,320 Speaker 1: Does it really make sense? Well, you know what you 155 00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:30,000 Speaker 1: cannot explain away the mind of a criminal. I mean 156 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:33,600 Speaker 1: you're the shrink doctor, Jerry Cross, and criminals do things 157 00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:36,280 Speaker 1: that don't make sense to us because we're not criminals, 158 00:10:36,640 --> 00:10:39,600 Speaker 1: that's true. And one of the things that really stuck 159 00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:42,520 Speaker 1: out in my mind as a kidnapper, and she described 160 00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:46,240 Speaker 1: him as a black male looking back historically, and I 161 00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:49,000 Speaker 1: even checked at the time the crime reports and for 162 00:10:49,120 --> 00:10:51,920 Speaker 1: our state of Florida, there were no black servant anytime 163 00:10:51,960 --> 00:10:55,560 Speaker 1: for kidnapping. So there's another behavior that I thought that's 164 00:10:55,640 --> 00:10:58,640 Speaker 1: really unusual. So we got the first time you know 165 00:10:58,760 --> 00:11:03,040 Speaker 1: of a kidnapper of this race. Yeah, I'm thinking through 166 00:11:03,559 --> 00:11:07,079 Speaker 1: the way this whole thing unfalls. But take a listen 167 00:11:07,080 --> 00:11:12,920 Speaker 1: to this. Sitting on the floor in front of Susan, 168 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:16,000 Speaker 1: David Smith at her side, her tears falling on my hand. 169 00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:20,160 Speaker 1: We began the interview to say, husband, pure health for 170 00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:24,280 Speaker 1: both of you on the shore, total chaos. Could it's 171 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:32,200 Speaker 1: been awesome, Susan, you, Um, I don't even know what 172 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:34,480 Speaker 1: to say in here. Hey, let's a good word. I 173 00:11:34,600 --> 00:11:37,920 Speaker 1: just feel like I feel like my own one else 174 00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:42,439 Speaker 1: has been taking away. I'm am, I my children in 175 00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:46,960 Speaker 1: my life and they've just gotten to be Okay. There 176 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:51,400 Speaker 1: you're hearing mommy and husband David speaking. Let's take a 177 00:11:51,440 --> 00:11:54,880 Speaker 1: listen to a little bit more of that brave multiple 178 00:11:54,880 --> 00:11:57,040 Speaker 1: evolved for them and that they are being taken care 179 00:11:57,080 --> 00:11:59,960 Speaker 1: of and that they are safe, and that they were 180 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:08,319 Speaker 1: turn home safely. I want to say to my baby, Hey, 181 00:12:08,360 --> 00:12:11,559 Speaker 1: your mama loves you so much, and your daddy, this 182 00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:16,439 Speaker 1: whole families love you so much. And you guys a 183 00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:21,920 Speaker 1: guy to be strong, because you are. I just know, 184 00:12:22,679 --> 00:12:26,040 Speaker 1: I just feel in my heart going Okay, she died 185 00:12:26,120 --> 00:12:32,000 Speaker 1: to take care of each other. The search commences for 186 00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:39,000 Speaker 1: the two children, Alexander Tyler and Michael Daniel. Take a 187 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:41,440 Speaker 1: listen to our friends at crime Online. The search for 188 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:45,560 Speaker 1: the boys and the carjacker continued. Residents printed flyers and 189 00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:50,320 Speaker 1: distributed photos. Searches were conducted on horseback. Both the FBI 190 00:12:50,440 --> 00:12:53,120 Speaker 1: and local law enforcement followed up on the hundreds of 191 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:56,559 Speaker 1: leads that came in. On day three, a car was found. 192 00:12:57,040 --> 00:13:00,360 Speaker 1: Is this the break? Police needed a car? Matt, The 193 00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:04,480 Speaker 1: description of Susan's monster was spotted in North Carolina, but 194 00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:07,600 Speaker 1: it wasn't hers. So the car is found, but it's 195 00:13:07,679 --> 00:13:12,640 Speaker 1: a different protege. Take a listen to mommy and Hubby 196 00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:16,640 Speaker 1: speaking to CBS this morning. Susan, how are you doing 197 00:13:16,679 --> 00:13:21,719 Speaker 1: this morning? Doing okay? Very little sleep last night, but 198 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:26,480 Speaker 1: I'm okay. There was some news yesterday and some promising 199 00:13:26,559 --> 00:13:30,840 Speaker 1: leads in this case. How are how are you coping 200 00:13:30,880 --> 00:13:34,280 Speaker 1: with the disappointment of the news from yesterday? Um, it 201 00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:38,240 Speaker 1: was I was running around my house yesterday morning. I 202 00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:41,440 Speaker 1: was excited. I really thought that they had had had 203 00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:44,800 Speaker 1: really found something that was I really thought they had 204 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:48,120 Speaker 1: found one of my children. And when I got to 205 00:13:48,160 --> 00:13:52,280 Speaker 1: the courthouse and found out that the lead had disintegrated 206 00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:55,079 Speaker 1: or when there was nothing now, I was very devastated, 207 00:13:55,160 --> 00:13:59,080 Speaker 1: very disappointed. Uh, got my hosts up and was let down. 208 00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:04,000 Speaker 1: But I haven't given up hope. You know, that was 209 00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:12,360 Speaker 1: maybe one of many disappointments, but maybe that's gonna be right. 210 00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:17,600 Speaker 1: Mommy didn't stop there. Listen on behalf, on my behalf. 211 00:14:17,640 --> 00:14:21,200 Speaker 1: The truth has been told. UM, I know right here 212 00:14:21,240 --> 00:14:26,240 Speaker 1: what the truth is. UM. I can I can from 213 00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:30,040 Speaker 1: some I can see from their side why they have 214 00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:33,920 Speaker 1: to do things they have to do. UM. But the 215 00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:37,560 Speaker 1: Lord and at myself as know the truth. I did 216 00:14:37,680 --> 00:14:43,120 Speaker 1: not have anything to do with the abduction of my children. UM. 217 00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:45,200 Speaker 1: I don't think any parents of other children any more 218 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:47,440 Speaker 1: than I do, and I would I would never even 219 00:14:47,480 --> 00:14:51,400 Speaker 1: think about ever doing anything that would harm them. And yes, 220 00:14:52,080 --> 00:14:55,160 Speaker 1: go ahead, I'm sorry. Go ahead, Susan, I was just 221 00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:58,760 Speaker 1: gonna say, it's very painful to to have a finger 222 00:14:58,880 --> 00:15:06,280 Speaker 1: point the eve why short children involved the case then 223 00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:10,520 Speaker 1: takes a sudden you turn. Take a listen to our 224 00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:14,840 Speaker 1: longtime friend Bill Curtis at American Justice. Divers found the 225 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:17,640 Speaker 1: car one hundred and twenty two feet from the shore, 226 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:22,400 Speaker 1: upside down, under eighteen feet of water. Through the murky darkness, 227 00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:25,680 Speaker 1: the beam of a diver's flashlight illuminated a small hand 228 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:29,160 Speaker 1: pressed against the window. As the car was pulled from 229 00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:32,320 Speaker 1: the water, the bodies of Michael and Alex were visible 230 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:36,400 Speaker 1: through the side windows. That's right, the bodies of the 231 00:15:36,520 --> 00:15:40,880 Speaker 1: children were found his Randall Pinkston CBS. Last night, Smith's 232 00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:44,160 Speaker 1: car was recovered from a nearby lake. Sources say her 233 00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:47,480 Speaker 1: two sons, three year old Michael at fourteen month old Alex, 234 00:15:47,520 --> 00:15:51,240 Speaker 1: were alive strapped into their seats when the car sank. 235 00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:54,680 Speaker 1: CBS News has learned her motive may have involved a 236 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:58,800 Speaker 1: relationship with the man who wanted her but not her children. Today, 237 00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:01,320 Speaker 1: the family of David's or the father of the two 238 00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:04,240 Speaker 1: little boys, coped with the shock during all the RDA 239 00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:08,280 Speaker 1: or the community of Union South Carolina provided an unprecedented 240 00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:12,560 Speaker 1: amount of support for David and the family, and at 241 00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:15,080 Speaker 1: the lake where they died all day they come in 242 00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:20,400 Speaker 1: solemn contemplation just looking at it, so you can believe 243 00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:25,680 Speaker 1: it is. You can't understanding our mother could do that 244 00:16:25,760 --> 00:16:31,040 Speaker 1: towards children two daughter. Tim Gallagher the medical examiner for 245 00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:34,040 Speaker 1: the entire state of Florida. You can find him at 246 00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:40,320 Speaker 1: pathcaremad dot com. Doctor Gallagher, I'm having a hard time 247 00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:43,560 Speaker 1: taking in what happened to these two little boys, one 248 00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:48,560 Speaker 1: just fourteen months old, one three years old. How would 249 00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:54,200 Speaker 1: authorities know the two little boys were alive when they 250 00:16:54,200 --> 00:17:00,000 Speaker 1: were strapped into their car seats and pushed into the lake. Well, 251 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:03,760 Speaker 1: they would know obviously from doing an autopsy and examining 252 00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:07,919 Speaker 1: the findings. First thing we're going to have to establish 253 00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:10,840 Speaker 1: is that there were no other injuries on the child, 254 00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:16,360 Speaker 1: any traumatic injuries on the children from perhaps a previous attack. 255 00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:19,879 Speaker 1: Once we do the autopsy, will be able to examine 256 00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:24,280 Speaker 1: the lungs and be able to examine the contents of 257 00:17:24,320 --> 00:17:28,000 Speaker 1: the lungs. For instance, microbes that are in the water, 258 00:17:28,080 --> 00:17:30,439 Speaker 1: we can look at that under the microscope. And the 259 00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:33,000 Speaker 1: only way those get in there is if you actively 260 00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:37,320 Speaker 1: breathe them in. There are also water in the stomach. 261 00:17:38,040 --> 00:17:41,159 Speaker 1: People tend to gulp down the water and we'll find 262 00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:44,960 Speaker 1: the pond water in the stomach and also in some 263 00:17:45,040 --> 00:17:49,160 Speaker 1: of the airspaces behind the nose. We'll see water there. 264 00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:51,000 Speaker 1: And the only way to back to get in is 265 00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:55,040 Speaker 1: if you actively take a breath under water and it 266 00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:58,719 Speaker 1: fills up those cavities behind the nose. So there are 267 00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:16,320 Speaker 1: several ways. Prime stories with Nancy Grace for those of 268 00:18:16,359 --> 00:18:19,400 Speaker 1: you just joining us, two little boys, after a nine 269 00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:25,440 Speaker 1: days search, are found drowned dead, strapped into the car seats. 270 00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:32,240 Speaker 1: The car then pushed into a lake. You know it 271 00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:36,240 Speaker 1: was the John D. Long Lake where two little boys 272 00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:42,760 Speaker 1: lost their lives. So I guess the carjacker changed his mind. 273 00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:51,480 Speaker 1: Take a listen to the boys, Dad David speaking to me. 274 00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:57,920 Speaker 1: So you realized in one fell swoop that they have 275 00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:03,040 Speaker 1: been killed. And Susan Smith, your wife, I'd done the 276 00:19:03,119 --> 00:19:06,000 Speaker 1: deed at once, just like that, It's like, what did 277 00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:12,000 Speaker 1: you do? Gave up? Gave up? I ran first. I 278 00:19:12,080 --> 00:19:14,640 Speaker 1: just wanted to run, and I ran. You ran where 279 00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:17,639 Speaker 1: sut he are? He ran out the door. Yeah, I 280 00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:20,040 Speaker 1: had to go. I just had to go. Where did 281 00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:21,800 Speaker 1: you run to? I don't know. I just ran. I 282 00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:25,520 Speaker 1: don't remember your straight clothes. I just had to go. 283 00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:30,200 Speaker 1: I just had to run. And when did you come back? 284 00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:34,199 Speaker 1: My dad chased after me and caught up with me finally, 285 00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:36,520 Speaker 1: and we walked back to the to the Russell's home. 286 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:41,720 Speaker 1: Was it at night? It's dark? Let me go to 287 00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:48,119 Speaker 1: Doctor Jerry Crowsen joining US psychologist faculty, Saint Leo University. 288 00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:56,920 Speaker 1: Doctor Crowsen, I have seen that many times in cases 289 00:19:56,960 --> 00:20:04,920 Speaker 1: I prosecuted and investigated where the victim family actually child 290 00:20:05,119 --> 00:20:10,160 Speaker 1: animal and cries and screams, and they don't really seem 291 00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:14,760 Speaker 1: to have a full memory of that moment, as if 292 00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:19,160 Speaker 1: they want to just run outside and how the moon 293 00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:24,000 Speaker 1: out of grief? What is that? That's the overwhelming stress 294 00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:28,560 Speaker 1: And we refer to it as a displacement activity because 295 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:32,320 Speaker 1: basically portions of your mind memory shut down and you 296 00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:37,240 Speaker 1: just got to physically release this stressful energy that's now 297 00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:40,840 Speaker 1: been dumped on you or slapped you upside the face, 298 00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:44,440 Speaker 1: so you know the physical ability to get out and run, 299 00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:47,719 Speaker 1: do some kind of movement that's going to start, you know, 300 00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:51,600 Speaker 1: catching up with his heart. Rage is breathing and just 301 00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:53,800 Speaker 1: like you said his father came and chased him down 302 00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:56,600 Speaker 1: and you know, basically stopped him. And that brings you 303 00:20:56,680 --> 00:21:01,400 Speaker 1: back to reality. I'm just thinking of but David went 304 00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:06,560 Speaker 1: through being confronted with the drowning death of his children. 305 00:21:09,359 --> 00:21:12,880 Speaker 1: Dan Scott joining me former La County sheriff sergeant twenty 306 00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:18,560 Speaker 1: six years with with the Special Victims Bureau specializing in children, 307 00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:26,560 Speaker 1: Dan Scott to just think that they were conscious as 308 00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:31,200 Speaker 1: the car filled up with water. The last thing they 309 00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:38,920 Speaker 1: likely saw was mommy or the carjacker standing by on 310 00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:41,480 Speaker 1: the dot watching their cargo. Dan, and you know they 311 00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:46,080 Speaker 1: were screaming for mommy. Exactly the horror that those children 312 00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:49,480 Speaker 1: went through. You know, you can say how long mom's 313 00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:54,320 Speaker 1: been in jail and do people deserve that, but these 314 00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:58,240 Speaker 1: kids were. I mean, it's almost like the torture for 315 00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:01,080 Speaker 1: them to be in that car. You know, they count 316 00:22:01,119 --> 00:22:04,480 Speaker 1: on their mom to protect them, their parents, and for 317 00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:08,480 Speaker 1: them to be subjected to this is just I mean, 318 00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:12,479 Speaker 1: I've seen so many child homicides and I still, after 319 00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:16,960 Speaker 1: all these years, can't wrap my mind around it. Guys, 320 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:21,679 Speaker 1: take a listen to the dad of these two little boys, 321 00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:27,840 Speaker 1: David Smith, speaking to me. Did you go to the jail. No, 322 00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:33,960 Speaker 1: when did you see her again? It was about a 323 00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:38,320 Speaker 1: month later after she hadn't been interested. What did she say, David? 324 00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:42,760 Speaker 1: She said she was sorry, and I mean mose asked 325 00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:44,960 Speaker 1: what we talked about was Michael and Alex? No, I 326 00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:47,320 Speaker 1: mean I did ask her why she did and what 327 00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:53,240 Speaker 1: did she say? She didn't know? When you look back, David, 328 00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:58,520 Speaker 1: do you blame yourself? Do you think there were indicators 329 00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:02,919 Speaker 1: or red flags you would have seen but didn't. No, 330 00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:05,399 Speaker 1: I don't blame myself. I mean, Susan, you know she 331 00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:10,560 Speaker 1: was confident. She was, you know, in sound minds, same 332 00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:13,119 Speaker 1: thing to be Yeah, I mean, you know, in some ways, 333 00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:15,000 Speaker 1: a lot of people want to say she had to 334 00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:17,320 Speaker 1: be crazy, and I think I want to They say 335 00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:20,280 Speaker 1: that figuratively speaking, but not legally right, but not legally 336 00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:27,960 Speaker 1: She wasn't murder mom. Susan Smith, the woman who really 337 00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:35,680 Speaker 1: kicked off world recognition of murder moms. She's the one 338 00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:43,840 Speaker 1: to Chrissy Massurk. What was the alleged motive to murder 339 00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:48,160 Speaker 1: in such a horrific way her two little boys? She 340 00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:53,440 Speaker 1: was having an affair with a wealthy man, boiled down 341 00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:59,840 Speaker 1: to that. In fact, police found a letter in the House, 342 00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:05,800 Speaker 1: written by Tom Finley. Her lover breaking off their relationship 343 00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:08,600 Speaker 1: because he did not want to be involved with a 344 00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:12,600 Speaker 1: mother with children this woman, did you hear her husband say? 345 00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:16,040 Speaker 1: David told me that he asked her why did she 346 00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:18,800 Speaker 1: do this? And she said, I don't know, well, because 347 00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:24,760 Speaker 1: she's still still playing him. She's still playing him. All 348 00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:28,040 Speaker 1: the people surrounding her, including her children, are just pawns 349 00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:30,320 Speaker 1: in her game. She said, I don't know why I 350 00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:33,360 Speaker 1: did it. Well, this is why she did it, because 351 00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:35,560 Speaker 1: she was secretly sleeping with a man who did not 352 00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:38,760 Speaker 1: want children. What do we know about him? Didn't his 353 00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:43,240 Speaker 1: father own a big business there in the local community. 354 00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:47,600 Speaker 1: Oh yes, it's a very prominent, very wealthy. So she 355 00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:51,520 Speaker 1: saw that as her golden ticket, and her manipulation continues 356 00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:55,720 Speaker 1: to this day. You know the motive secretly dating a 357 00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:58,840 Speaker 1: man who did not want children, Isn't it true? Chrissy 358 00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:02,000 Speaker 1: Missouri did? That is why he said he broke up 359 00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:04,399 Speaker 1: with her because he was not ready for a ready 360 00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:08,680 Speaker 1: made family. That is correct. In a letter two doctor 361 00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:13,239 Speaker 1: joy Cross in psychologists joining us, The reality is is 362 00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:19,359 Speaker 1: that she worked at this business and started sleeping with 363 00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:24,480 Speaker 1: the owner's son. That's what happened and out of her 364 00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:28,320 Speaker 1: marriage so she could move up the social strata. And 365 00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:33,560 Speaker 1: Mary the boss's son, who she perceived as being wealthy, 366 00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:36,919 Speaker 1: the reality as his father was not him. So this 367 00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:40,960 Speaker 1: whole thing was for naught. But is the motive money? 368 00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:45,600 Speaker 1: Would the motive be social climbing? Well, what would be 369 00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:48,040 Speaker 1: the motive here? Not that the state has to prove it, 370 00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:50,840 Speaker 1: but what would be the motive? Well, it could have 371 00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:53,960 Speaker 1: been many things really on her part. One of them 372 00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:56,960 Speaker 1: was the main thing, as the children now become an 373 00:25:56,960 --> 00:26:00,880 Speaker 1: obstacle to whatever her motive is and she to remove them, 374 00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:03,119 Speaker 1: got to get them out of the picture. You know, 375 00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:07,359 Speaker 1: the motive could have been just her narcassistic tendencies to 376 00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:12,720 Speaker 1: want to have a life of luxury and money to 377 00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:16,800 Speaker 1: you know, build her own self esteem and stuff up 378 00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:22,879 Speaker 1: that she's lacking. Motive here is really difficult to kind 379 00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:25,679 Speaker 1: of establish, but you can see from her personality that, 380 00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:29,879 Speaker 1: you know, it all centered around her again victimizum and 381 00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:32,719 Speaker 1: the children, like I said, become an obstacle and she 382 00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:46,800 Speaker 1: has reused them time stories with Nancy grace right love 383 00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:48,880 Speaker 1: of all for them and that they are being taken 384 00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:51,679 Speaker 1: care of and that they are safe and that they 385 00:26:51,680 --> 00:27:00,360 Speaker 1: will return home safely. I want to say to my baby, 386 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:03,400 Speaker 1: and your mama loves you so much, and your daddy, 387 00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:08,440 Speaker 1: this whole families love you so much. And you guys 388 00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:14,040 Speaker 1: a guy to be strong because you are. I just know. 389 00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:17,800 Speaker 1: I just feel in my heart going okay, But you 390 00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:22,080 Speaker 1: got to take care of each other. That is Susan 391 00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:24,919 Speaker 1: Smith and murder Mom speaking for those of you just 392 00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:28,720 Speaker 1: joining us. I just know in my heart you're all right. 393 00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:30,840 Speaker 1: You just have to be strong for each other. No, 394 00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:33,800 Speaker 1: she knew in her heart she had strapped her children 395 00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:37,040 Speaker 1: into the car and their child seats and pushed the 396 00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:41,120 Speaker 1: car into the lake. They're dead, Susan Smith. While you're 397 00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:45,639 Speaker 1: saying all this, listen to Susan Smith, please let me 398 00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:47,560 Speaker 1: take on me. He said, no, we didn't have time 399 00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:49,680 Speaker 1: because they weren't in car seats and it was gonna 400 00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:51,480 Speaker 1: take time for me to get my car seat. And 401 00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:54,399 Speaker 1: please tell me, said, but I won't hurt them, and 402 00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:56,879 Speaker 1: he just took call. But he had a gun. And 403 00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:02,680 Speaker 1: my big thing is they were scream in Holland crimes 404 00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:06,560 Speaker 1: and I'm just scared that he just lost his patience 405 00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:11,600 Speaker 1: or something. It's not some carjacker that lost their patients. 406 00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:15,800 Speaker 1: It was murder mom Susan Smith who wanted a different life. 407 00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:19,200 Speaker 1: But the reality is to Matthew Mengino, criminal defense attorney 408 00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:23,760 Speaker 1: and former prosecutor joining us out of Pennsylvania, this isn't 409 00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:27,560 Speaker 1: the first time Susan Smith did a little social climbing. 410 00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:31,600 Speaker 1: During an earlier summer, she had a job at the 411 00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:35,520 Speaker 1: local Win Dixie grocery store. She moved very quickly up 412 00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:39,840 Speaker 1: the ranks as kept from cashier to bookkeeper. Now this 413 00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:43,800 Speaker 1: is her senior year of high school. She slept with 414 00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:47,120 Speaker 1: three different guys and one of them was a married, 415 00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:52,120 Speaker 1: older man who worked at the store. The other a 416 00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:55,680 Speaker 1: younger co worker. My point is, this ain't her first 417 00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:59,400 Speaker 1: time at the rodeo, dating or sleeping with a guy 418 00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:01,520 Speaker 1: that would help to remove up the ranks at work. 419 00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:07,320 Speaker 1: She's she's a master manipulator. I mean, she been manipulative 420 00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:10,840 Speaker 1: in her in her work. She's been manipulative with Um, 421 00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:16,040 Speaker 1: the owner, the owner's son of the business she worked for. 422 00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:20,959 Speaker 1: And you know, she manipulated her her husband, Um, you know, 423 00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:24,160 Speaker 1: throughout their relationship. So this is something that she does 424 00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:27,960 Speaker 1: and she does it well. Man. She's playing so many 425 00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:30,920 Speaker 1: different guys, including her own husband. Not wanting to work 426 00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:32,960 Speaker 1: in the same place as her husband, she takes a 427 00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:36,960 Speaker 1: job as a bookkeeper and the largest employer in the area. 428 00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:42,360 Speaker 1: It's called Conso Products. She was promoted to executive secretary 429 00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:48,080 Speaker 1: and she worked directly for the CEO, Jay Carrey Finley, 430 00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:53,600 Speaker 1: and of course started dating his son. That's how that 431 00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:59,360 Speaker 1: works out. Chrissy Missourich. She finally confesses that it was 432 00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:03,840 Speaker 1: her some unknown carjacker to the children. Is that correct? 433 00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:07,760 Speaker 1: Of course that's correct, because she couldn't keep her story straight. 434 00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:12,720 Speaker 1: You know, first somebody yate trot of the car, then 435 00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:15,600 Speaker 1: she drove around with the person in the car. The 436 00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:19,240 Speaker 1: story kept changing. You know, people in the media like myself, 437 00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:23,040 Speaker 1: we were watching this unfold, praying that these two babies 438 00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:27,000 Speaker 1: get returned. And by day three or four, we were 439 00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:29,560 Speaker 1: looking at each other in the newsroom going, I think 440 00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:33,040 Speaker 1: this woman's got some crocodile tears going. Well. Also, do 441 00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:37,320 Speaker 1: you remember the composite sketch that was released of the 442 00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:42,480 Speaker 1: blackmail she described that took her children. Do you remember that? 443 00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:47,600 Speaker 1: I do? You know, I remember it really really well 444 00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:52,880 Speaker 1: because I was in court trying a case at the 445 00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:58,280 Speaker 1: time that this occurred, and it must have been a 446 00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:03,200 Speaker 1: murder case because I and call someone for help. I 447 00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:07,240 Speaker 1: needed somebody to help me with some legal research quickly 448 00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:11,560 Speaker 1: before the judge ruled, and I called my then partner, 449 00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:15,520 Speaker 1: Herman Sloan. Herman Sloan now a judge, I might add, 450 00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:17,959 Speaker 1: race to the court and to figure out what kind 451 00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:20,200 Speaker 1: of mess I've gotten myself into. And I looked at her. 452 00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:23,080 Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, my star is Herman. You look just 453 00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:28,880 Speaker 1: like the composite sketch Smith just released. I said, you 454 00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:31,360 Speaker 1: better get your alibis. So he goes I was here 455 00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:33,400 Speaker 1: in court with unancy. I'm like, good, good thing. But 456 00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:37,560 Speaker 1: my point is she could have gotten so many people 457 00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:42,000 Speaker 1: in trouble, not just my trial partner, Hermann Sloan, who 458 00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:48,000 Speaker 1: was now a judge. She creates in her mind what 459 00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:51,000 Speaker 1: the carjacker looks like and then puts it out there, 460 00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:54,760 Speaker 1: or how many people do you think we're under suspicion? 461 00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:59,600 Speaker 1: Because of her fate, composite members of law enforcement were 462 00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:06,720 Speaker 1: picking up dozens daily for questioning. So it all comes 463 00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:10,800 Speaker 1: out at trial to doctor Tim Gallagher or the medical 464 00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:16,760 Speaker 1: examiner for the State of Florida, that's not easy. You 465 00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:20,479 Speaker 1: can find it at pathcaremad dot com. Doctor Gallagher, how 466 00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:23,520 Speaker 1: long does it take to drown? I mean, I'm just 467 00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:25,880 Speaker 1: imagining the children strapped in the car seats, they can't 468 00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:30,040 Speaker 1: get out, and the water is filling up in the car. Right. 469 00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:32,640 Speaker 1: There are a couple of factors, you know, how how 470 00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:36,640 Speaker 1: rapidly your body is using oxygen. If the water starts 471 00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:40,840 Speaker 1: coming into the car and the children start panicking, then 472 00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:43,760 Speaker 1: they would be their body use of oxygen would be 473 00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:49,360 Speaker 1: greatly increased. But the reality is, after three minutes or 474 00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:52,480 Speaker 1: greater of no oxygen to the brain, they will develop 475 00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:56,680 Speaker 1: irreparable brain damage. They will stop breathing, and then they 476 00:32:56,720 --> 00:33:00,560 Speaker 1: can be declared to ceased after that, you know the 477 00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:05,200 Speaker 1: way you say, doctor Tim Gallager, Um, it sounds so clinical. 478 00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:08,920 Speaker 1: I assume out of the thousands and thousands of autopsy 479 00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:12,840 Speaker 1: if you performed you have performed them on children as 480 00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:16,120 Speaker 1: young as three years old or one year old white 481 00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:19,080 Speaker 1: tyler even less, you know, and those are the most 482 00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:21,640 Speaker 1: difficult cases to do. You know, we are, you know, 483 00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:24,720 Speaker 1: like you say, humans, ourselves and we do have children 484 00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:28,120 Speaker 1: of our own, and these really hit home. But you know, 485 00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:30,040 Speaker 1: we really have to put that aside to do these 486 00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:35,080 Speaker 1: cases and come up with a very unbiased and scientifically 487 00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:40,800 Speaker 1: provable diagnosis for our results. You know, do you, Matthew, 488 00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:44,480 Speaker 1: Me and Gina, do you believe juries judge mothers more 489 00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:49,240 Speaker 1: harshly that kill their children than they do other murder defendants. 490 00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:53,280 Speaker 1: I do. Well. Again, it's it's human nature, you know, 491 00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:57,600 Speaker 1: the idea that a mother could kill her children in 492 00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:01,120 Speaker 1: such a way that she pushed them to their death 493 00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:06,560 Speaker 1: and they drowned, unable to release themselves from the vehicle 494 00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:08,279 Speaker 1: or get out of the water. I mean, that's a 495 00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:12,239 Speaker 1: horrific way to die, and that's a horrific thing for 496 00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:15,359 Speaker 1: a mother to do to her children. So obviously it's 497 00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:18,759 Speaker 1: an uphill battle when you're bringing a mother in front 498 00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:21,400 Speaker 1: of a jury who's been accused of killing her children. 499 00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:26,760 Speaker 1: So Chrissie Missouri, Obviously she gets convicted plus the sentence life. 500 00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:30,640 Speaker 1: She was sentenced to life. They wanted the death penalty, 501 00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:33,880 Speaker 1: pulled it off the table. She was sentenced to life 502 00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:37,360 Speaker 1: back in July of ninety five and has been behind 503 00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:41,760 Speaker 1: bars ever since. But she'll appreciate this, Nancy. A leopard 504 00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:45,320 Speaker 1: doesn't change their spots, you know what, you Truer words 505 00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:50,399 Speaker 1: were never spoken Christie, Missouri investigative reporter. A leopard can't 506 00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:56,320 Speaker 1: change its spots. Susan Smith, murder mom. Many people say 507 00:34:56,960 --> 00:35:01,440 Speaker 1: life behind bars was too harsh. 's better than our 508 00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:10,080 Speaker 1: two little boys got. Susan Smith brought in Hell. Nancy 509 00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:16,000 Speaker 1: Grace Crime Stories, Murder Monds signing off Goodbye friend