1 00:00:06,160 --> 00:00:08,760 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name 2 00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:09,400 Speaker 1: is Robert. 3 00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:12,119 Speaker 2: Lamb and I am Joe McCormick, and it's Saturday. We 4 00:00:12,160 --> 00:00:15,440 Speaker 2: are bringing you an episode from the Vault. Today. We 5 00:00:15,480 --> 00:00:18,480 Speaker 2: are featuring an episode that originally aired on December sixth, 6 00:00:18,720 --> 00:00:19,560 Speaker 2: twenty two. 7 00:00:20,280 --> 00:00:20,480 Speaker 1: Rob. 8 00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:23,000 Speaker 2: This is an interview that you did with an author 9 00:00:23,079 --> 00:00:25,280 Speaker 2: named Fred Hogg about ice. 10 00:00:25,600 --> 00:00:28,440 Speaker 1: That's right. This is a fun conversation talking about the 11 00:00:28,760 --> 00:00:32,319 Speaker 1: history of ice and our ability to exploit ice. So 12 00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:35,080 Speaker 1: as we get into the chillier months here, I think 13 00:00:35,360 --> 00:00:37,320 Speaker 1: folks will find this one quite enjoyable. 14 00:00:37,479 --> 00:00:38,279 Speaker 3: And away we go. 15 00:00:41,760 --> 00:00:49,720 Speaker 4: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, production of iHeartRadio. 16 00:00:51,640 --> 00:00:53,920 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. This is 17 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:57,080 Speaker 1: Robert Lamb and I have an exciting interview for you today. 18 00:00:57,120 --> 00:00:59,920 Speaker 1: I'm going to be talking with Fred Hogg, author of 19 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:03,160 Speaker 1: the new book of Ice and Men, How We've Used 20 00:01:03,280 --> 00:01:09,640 Speaker 1: Cold to Transform Humanity. Covers everything from cocktail ice to 21 00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:13,520 Speaker 1: the ancient history of ice houses. It gets into so 22 00:01:13,600 --> 00:01:17,160 Speaker 1: many wonderful areas. So I hope you enjoyed this interview. 23 00:01:17,200 --> 00:01:20,160 Speaker 1: This chat I had with Fred a tremendous amount of fun, 24 00:01:20,480 --> 00:01:24,119 Speaker 1: just as the book is a tremendous amount of fun. Hi, Fred, 25 00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:25,119 Speaker 1: thanks for coming on the show. 26 00:01:25,600 --> 00:01:27,400 Speaker 3: Thank you very much for having me. It's really really 27 00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:28,360 Speaker 3: a pleasure to be here. 28 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:32,319 Speaker 1: Excellent. Yeah, the book is so much fun. I just 29 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:35,119 Speaker 1: read it the other day. Of Ice and Men, How 30 00:01:35,160 --> 00:01:39,840 Speaker 1: We've used cold to transform Humanity a wonderful, insightful, and 31 00:01:39,880 --> 00:01:45,000 Speaker 1: surprising look at humanity's history with ice. Humanity's propensity to 32 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:47,919 Speaker 1: take ice for granted is a recurring theme in your book, 33 00:01:48,280 --> 00:01:50,640 Speaker 1: and I just was wondering were you prepared for just 34 00:01:50,760 --> 00:01:54,520 Speaker 1: how often it has been taken for granted in recorded history. 35 00:01:55,080 --> 00:02:00,160 Speaker 3: That's a really really interesting question, And to one degree 36 00:02:00,280 --> 00:02:03,840 Speaker 3: I was because having sort of started out in my 37 00:02:03,960 --> 00:02:08,560 Speaker 3: career as an ancient historian, one finds oneself very limited 38 00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:12,200 Speaker 3: by what people not just what people choose to write about, 39 00:02:12,200 --> 00:02:16,840 Speaker 3: but what survives. So when you're dealing with the ancient world, 40 00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:19,320 Speaker 3: it's not just that people have the topics that they 41 00:02:19,400 --> 00:02:21,880 Speaker 3: think are interesting and that they care about, but we 42 00:02:21,919 --> 00:02:24,960 Speaker 3: also have to deal with this whole big problem of 43 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:30,160 Speaker 3: textual transmission, and a number of books, fast number of 44 00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:32,320 Speaker 3: books just do not come down to us from the 45 00:02:32,360 --> 00:02:34,919 Speaker 3: ancient world, and some of the ones that do come 46 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:39,400 Speaker 3: down by very very strange ways. If I remember correctly, 47 00:02:39,440 --> 00:02:42,560 Speaker 3: Katullus's poetry was found under a barrel in the fourteenth 48 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:46,480 Speaker 3: century and that was the only copy that came through somehow. 49 00:02:46,639 --> 00:02:49,880 Speaker 3: And it's wonderful stuff. But when it comes to stuff 50 00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:56,120 Speaker 3: like ice and functional things, it requires, on the one hand, 51 00:02:56,280 --> 00:02:59,320 Speaker 3: an ancient writer to be interested, on the other hand 52 00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:02,240 Speaker 3: for it to be so. For example, we know an 53 00:03:02,360 --> 00:03:05,240 Speaker 3: enormous amount about aqueduct because a book by a guy 54 00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:10,080 Speaker 3: called front Tyness survives. If it hadn't, we would just 55 00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:12,120 Speaker 3: have the archaeology. But as it is, we have the 56 00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:15,440 Speaker 3: book and we know how they work with ice. I 57 00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:19,240 Speaker 3: knew that the sources would be will be slim for 58 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:21,640 Speaker 3: the ancient stuff, and that's fair enough. And you spend 59 00:03:21,639 --> 00:03:23,799 Speaker 3: a lot of time trawling around just trying to find 60 00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:27,960 Speaker 3: a glimpse and mention as something here or there, But 61 00:03:28,120 --> 00:03:31,480 Speaker 3: you know it's but that's part of the challenge, that's 62 00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:32,520 Speaker 3: part of what makes it fun. 63 00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:35,119 Speaker 1: Now, this is probably a question you're being asked a lot, 64 00:03:35,160 --> 00:03:37,640 Speaker 1: but just in general, how did you come to write 65 00:03:37,640 --> 00:03:38,920 Speaker 1: a book about ice? 66 00:03:41,440 --> 00:03:46,640 Speaker 3: Well, basically what happened was I hadn't really thought about 67 00:03:46,640 --> 00:03:49,880 Speaker 3: it as a topic to write about, and my wife's 68 00:03:49,920 --> 00:03:53,200 Speaker 3: a cookery writer and cookery teacher and she was doing 69 00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:54,840 Speaker 3: a class back when we lived in London, and she 70 00:03:54,880 --> 00:03:57,120 Speaker 3: asked me to help out and come and make some 71 00:03:57,200 --> 00:04:00,160 Speaker 3: cocktails for the customers. And as I was shaking up 72 00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:04,240 Speaker 3: these drinks, I happen to remark that if you don't 73 00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:08,880 Speaker 3: have ice, you can't really have a cocktail. And one 74 00:04:08,920 --> 00:04:13,400 Speaker 3: of the punters said, prove it. And basically that's what 75 00:04:13,480 --> 00:04:16,200 Speaker 3: I've set out to try and do. And as soon 76 00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:19,680 Speaker 3: as I started to delving into it, I realized what 77 00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:26,760 Speaker 3: an extraordinary, rich seam of information it is, because it 78 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:31,279 Speaker 3: is that big sort of unsung hero and monster of 79 00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:37,480 Speaker 3: modern life, and it's changing us. I think it's quite profound. 80 00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:41,520 Speaker 3: I was reading what was it last week? I think 81 00:04:41,520 --> 00:04:44,200 Speaker 3: that the eighth billion person has just been born on 82 00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:49,640 Speaker 3: planet Earth. This is, in those small part down to 83 00:04:50,960 --> 00:04:55,400 Speaker 3: the extraordinary benefits that ice have brought. Humanity, both in 84 00:04:55,480 --> 00:05:00,400 Speaker 3: terms of our nutrition, in terms of medicine, int of 85 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:06,440 Speaker 3: so many things, is absolutely supercharged the species. It's from 86 00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:10,520 Speaker 3: nineteen forty five to now, the species has exploded, and 87 00:05:10,600 --> 00:05:14,080 Speaker 3: it is entirely down to the fact that we are 88 00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:17,880 Speaker 3: able to feed ourselves so much better because of refrigeration, 89 00:05:18,080 --> 00:05:20,440 Speaker 3: because of cool chains, because of all of the benefits 90 00:05:20,440 --> 00:05:23,080 Speaker 3: that ice has brought us, and what burden does that 91 00:05:23,240 --> 00:05:26,520 Speaker 3: place upon the rest of the system. And I think 92 00:05:26,560 --> 00:05:27,440 Speaker 3: that's the big question. 93 00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:31,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, you returned to the idea multiple times in the 94 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:35,560 Speaker 1: book that ice is inherently linked to civilization, and you 95 00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:39,000 Speaker 1: frequently invoke the nineteen eighty six film adaptation of The 96 00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:43,240 Speaker 1: Mosquito Coast. Can you remind our listeners of this film, 97 00:05:43,279 --> 00:05:45,719 Speaker 1: and I suppose of the book and it's use of ice. 98 00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:48,839 Speaker 3: I have to confess I've never read the book. I've 99 00:05:48,839 --> 00:05:52,680 Speaker 3: only ever seen the movie, which is a terrible admission. 100 00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:54,440 Speaker 3: I know Paol through as a wonderful writer, but I 101 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:59,000 Speaker 3: haven't read it. But in the movie version, directed by 102 00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:03,000 Speaker 3: the wonderful Australia and director Peter Weir, the lead character 103 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:07,479 Speaker 3: Ali Fox as played by Harrison Ford, has this very 104 00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:12,599 Speaker 3: catching line of ice is civilization and then sets out 105 00:06:12,640 --> 00:06:15,200 Speaker 3: into the rainforest of Belize to build an ice machine 106 00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:18,719 Speaker 3: to bring ice to the people. That idea has always 107 00:06:18,760 --> 00:06:21,720 Speaker 3: struck with me. I first saw that film. Gosh, this 108 00:06:21,839 --> 00:06:23,840 Speaker 3: dates me now. I saw that film on general release, 109 00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:27,839 Speaker 3: so gosh, that was what eighty six. As you said, 110 00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:29,400 Speaker 3: I think came out in eighty seven in the UK 111 00:06:29,480 --> 00:06:31,920 Speaker 3: because we were often at that point a little bit 112 00:06:31,960 --> 00:06:37,599 Speaker 3: behind the United States. But yes, I think that he 113 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:41,200 Speaker 3: has an absolute point. Ice has always been there from 114 00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:45,520 Speaker 3: the very beginning of civilization. The ancient Sumerians, the very 115 00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:51,280 Speaker 3: first civilized society, had ice, which is something that is 116 00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:55,000 Speaker 3: quite baffling to grasp, given as in the City of 117 00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:58,320 Speaker 3: a Rook. The first city is in the deserts of 118 00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:02,000 Speaker 3: southern Iraq, and you know, were you to visit it today, 119 00:07:02,080 --> 00:07:09,200 Speaker 3: you'd find this barren, wind swept, desolate landscape and it's 120 00:07:09,320 --> 00:07:13,440 Speaker 3: very hard to imagine a that it was once a blossoming, 121 00:07:13,560 --> 00:07:16,240 Speaker 3: fertile place and b that they could make ice there 122 00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:19,240 Speaker 3: and it's baking, it's forty five degrees in the shade. 123 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:24,200 Speaker 3: But ice was there. Ice was inherent in their lives. 124 00:07:24,240 --> 00:07:25,920 Speaker 3: We don't know how they use it. We just know 125 00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:29,520 Speaker 3: that it was there, which is a Zever. Often one 126 00:07:29,560 --> 00:07:32,440 Speaker 3: of the big problems with archaeological sources. They'll tell you 127 00:07:32,520 --> 00:07:36,680 Speaker 3: a thing, but they won't give you a context. But sorry, 128 00:07:36,760 --> 00:07:39,200 Speaker 3: I'm rabbiting on I'm sorry. 129 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:41,760 Speaker 1: Rob, No, No, this is wonderful. Yeah, because that was 130 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:45,000 Speaker 1: what I was going to ask about next, was the 131 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:47,880 Speaker 1: ancient Samerian ice houses, because this was this really blue 132 00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:49,920 Speaker 1: meal way, just imagining. 133 00:07:49,640 --> 00:07:51,480 Speaker 3: Well, blue meal way too, I've got to be honest. 134 00:07:51,880 --> 00:07:55,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, So is it thought that the ancient Sumerians invented 135 00:07:56,160 --> 00:07:57,360 Speaker 1: ice house technology? 136 00:07:58,720 --> 00:08:01,960 Speaker 3: We just know, like I was saying, you know, we 137 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:04,280 Speaker 3: have in the year thirteen of the reign of Shulgi, 138 00:08:04,400 --> 00:08:07,000 Speaker 3: they built an ice house. That's what the tablet tells us. 139 00:08:08,520 --> 00:08:12,480 Speaker 3: And that's it. I'm not a Sumerian expert at all. 140 00:08:13,200 --> 00:08:14,800 Speaker 3: I had to read up on quite a lot of stuff, 141 00:08:14,960 --> 00:08:17,400 Speaker 3: and I still don't fully understand it. But when we 142 00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:22,280 Speaker 3: look at those kind of cuneiform tablets from the ancient 143 00:08:22,320 --> 00:08:24,920 Speaker 3: Middle and Near East, particularly as we get into the 144 00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:28,280 Speaker 3: next section of where ice rears its head, and a 145 00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:35,080 Speaker 3: kingdom called Mari, which was situated in eastern Syria around 146 00:08:35,160 --> 00:08:39,080 Speaker 3: about like the fifteen fourteen hundreds PC, they mentioned an 147 00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:41,520 Speaker 3: ice house in their tablets. But when we get to 148 00:08:41,559 --> 00:08:45,720 Speaker 3: that era, what we do have is an extraordinary level 149 00:08:45,720 --> 00:08:50,720 Speaker 3: of correspondence written between the great kingdoms of the Middle 150 00:08:50,760 --> 00:08:53,920 Speaker 3: and Near East, from the Hittites to the Assyrians, to 151 00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:58,280 Speaker 3: the Mari to the Egyptians, and they're all broadly in Assyrium, 152 00:08:59,120 --> 00:09:03,120 Speaker 3: and we have some of these archives. The one in 153 00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:07,120 Speaker 3: Mari was discovered in the thirties. It is a huge 154 00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:10,240 Speaker 3: insight into how that world operated and how it worked. 155 00:09:10,280 --> 00:09:13,560 Speaker 3: And these kings would sort of, you know, write to 156 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:17,920 Speaker 3: each other, you know, to the great King of Assyria, 157 00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:24,640 Speaker 3: my brother, how how you doing, or that kind of thing. 158 00:09:24,640 --> 00:09:29,839 Speaker 3: But again, the ice house in Mari is mentioned obliquely. 159 00:09:31,040 --> 00:09:35,880 Speaker 3: We know that it was there. We don't know if 160 00:09:35,880 --> 00:09:37,800 Speaker 3: there was only one or if there were many in 161 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:41,640 Speaker 3: their various different cities, but we know they had access 162 00:09:41,679 --> 00:09:46,120 Speaker 3: to ice, and we know again it was a luxury item. 163 00:09:46,400 --> 00:09:49,760 Speaker 3: It wasn't something that was there for everybody. It was 164 00:09:49,800 --> 00:09:51,520 Speaker 3: a prestige product. 165 00:09:51,840 --> 00:09:56,280 Speaker 1: And you mentioned these various other ice houses and ice 166 00:09:56,400 --> 00:10:00,959 Speaker 1: pits that pop up in other civilizations. Does it seem 167 00:10:01,040 --> 00:10:04,719 Speaker 1: like this is a case of cultural transmission or it's 168 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:08,240 Speaker 1: just kind of like independent inventions from people who or 169 00:10:08,520 --> 00:10:11,000 Speaker 1: people or kingdoms that are in areas where they have 170 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:14,920 Speaker 1: access to snow and then are figuring out ways to 171 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:16,439 Speaker 1: keep that snow around. 172 00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:19,800 Speaker 3: You have to have access, I mean, when we look 173 00:10:19,840 --> 00:10:24,559 Speaker 3: at the Persian ice houses or yat calls, these are 174 00:10:25,280 --> 00:10:31,840 Speaker 3: specially designed structures that operate on evaporative cooling, and they 175 00:10:32,840 --> 00:10:35,560 Speaker 3: in those kind of desert environments where the temperature drops 176 00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:40,200 Speaker 3: incredibly fast and as the sun goes down, you can 177 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:43,559 Speaker 3: create conditions in a controlled space where you can freeze things. 178 00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:47,280 Speaker 3: So that is a technology specific to their environments. And 179 00:10:47,320 --> 00:10:51,319 Speaker 3: we're talking seven hundred BC five hundred BC or thereabouts. 180 00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:58,240 Speaker 3: When you start looking at ancient Greece or civilizations like that, 181 00:10:58,280 --> 00:11:02,240 Speaker 3: they have access to ice from mountain and they will 182 00:11:02,280 --> 00:11:07,560 Speaker 3: bring the snow down. And we see this technology so 183 00:11:07,679 --> 00:11:12,920 Speaker 3: in Italy and in Spain into the early modern era, 184 00:11:13,040 --> 00:11:16,160 Speaker 3: and it doesn't really change a whole lot. You some 185 00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:22,080 Speaker 3: poor bloke generally a bloke has to carry the snow 186 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:24,120 Speaker 3: down and a thing on his back. You pack it 187 00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:27,920 Speaker 3: down hard into the ground into a pit that's insulated 188 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:34,040 Speaker 3: with branches and then covered and then sold. And you 189 00:11:34,040 --> 00:11:37,760 Speaker 3: could do this. You can do this in the Lebanon 190 00:11:37,800 --> 00:11:41,120 Speaker 3: because you can get the the ice from the mountains 191 00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:43,439 Speaker 3: at at the top of the Becker Valley. You can 192 00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:45,480 Speaker 3: do it in Greece. You can do it in Italy, 193 00:11:45,559 --> 00:11:47,920 Speaker 3: the Appennines was the big source of ice from Rome. 194 00:11:48,800 --> 00:11:51,360 Speaker 3: You can do it in Sudden Spain as host it 195 00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:54,440 Speaker 3: is in Seville. You still have mountains quite close by 196 00:11:54,520 --> 00:11:56,360 Speaker 3: where you should where you can get the ice from. 197 00:11:57,040 --> 00:12:00,720 Speaker 3: But if you don't have that access, it's not going 198 00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:04,400 Speaker 3: to happen. And India is quite an interesting one because 199 00:12:04,480 --> 00:12:06,840 Speaker 3: because because again they were able to do an evaporative 200 00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:12,240 Speaker 3: cooling technique with special ponds, and as the cooler would 201 00:12:12,240 --> 00:12:14,760 Speaker 3: come off the mountains, you could place clay pots out 202 00:12:14,760 --> 00:12:16,520 Speaker 3: and the walls would freeze and they would have ice 203 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:19,199 Speaker 3: for the next day. But again, this is a short 204 00:12:19,240 --> 00:12:24,000 Speaker 3: lived resource. It's not going to to be around for 205 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:27,959 Speaker 3: very long, and therefore is the preserve of the wealthy 206 00:12:28,080 --> 00:12:36,679 Speaker 3: for really up until the nineteenth century. 207 00:12:38,080 --> 00:12:40,360 Speaker 1: Now you get into we get into this area where 208 00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:43,240 Speaker 1: there there, there, there is. There are more mentions of 209 00:12:43,800 --> 00:12:46,880 Speaker 1: of ice, and one that I thought was was particularly interesting. 210 00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:51,600 Speaker 1: You mentioned first century CE Roman philosopher Seneca again for 211 00:12:51,760 --> 00:12:54,160 Speaker 1: ice sold in Roman markets. Do it Do we know 212 00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:55,240 Speaker 1: why he disapproved? 213 00:12:55,760 --> 00:13:00,319 Speaker 3: I think we don't know. I don't know why he 214 00:13:00,480 --> 00:13:04,520 Speaker 3: is Seneca from everything that I know, what little I 215 00:13:04,559 --> 00:13:07,000 Speaker 3: know of Senege, he was a fairly sniffy old chap 216 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:12,199 Speaker 3: he was. He yes, he was a very proper fellow. 217 00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:16,520 Speaker 3: It was our Seneca which probably why Nero killed him. 218 00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:22,280 Speaker 3: Great philosopher, great writer, really really really disgusting playwright in 219 00:13:22,360 --> 00:13:26,240 Speaker 3: terms of the amount of blood and gore in his plays. 220 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:29,839 Speaker 3: Oh my God, in his version of Madea you actually 221 00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:32,480 Speaker 3: see the babies being thrown from the battlements on stage. 222 00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:35,480 Speaker 3: I mean, Seneca's plays are mental. And Shakespeare was a 223 00:13:35,640 --> 00:13:41,280 Speaker 3: very big fan of Seneca's playwriting, which might explain explain 224 00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:45,800 Speaker 3: all the clart and gore and Coriolanus, but he was, Yeah, Seneca. 225 00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:51,720 Speaker 3: Shakespeare was a big fan of Seneca's dramaturgy. Uh, he's 226 00:13:52,160 --> 00:13:56,000 Speaker 3: he does, he does like to you know him, you 227 00:13:56,040 --> 00:13:58,240 Speaker 3: know juvenile as well. There are a bunch of those 228 00:13:58,280 --> 00:14:00,360 Speaker 3: guys around that first century who do like to have 229 00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:03,520 Speaker 3: quite snotty opinions about how awful the modern world is, 230 00:14:04,679 --> 00:14:08,280 Speaker 3: which I suppose is something that hasn't really changed. But yes, 231 00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:10,320 Speaker 3: he was not a fan of ice. He thought ice 232 00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:13,319 Speaker 3: was bad people and that they shouldn't be doing it, 233 00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:17,920 Speaker 3: which is an idea that would prevail for quite a 234 00:14:17,960 --> 00:14:20,920 Speaker 3: long time, for at least another sort of five six 235 00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:24,800 Speaker 3: hundred years after his time. There's a Spanish doctor Minardist 236 00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:27,840 Speaker 3: who's I think I mentioned the book, who writes about 237 00:14:27,880 --> 00:14:31,320 Speaker 3: how bad ice can be for you. There's an enormous 238 00:14:31,320 --> 00:14:36,000 Speaker 3: amount of ink and paper wasted on medical literature saying 239 00:14:36,040 --> 00:14:38,880 Speaker 3: that ice is a bad thing in the fifteenth and 240 00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:39,920 Speaker 3: sixteenth centuries. 241 00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:42,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, I was intrigued by this the more I read 242 00:14:43,040 --> 00:14:45,360 Speaker 1: in the book, too, because initially I was also reminded 243 00:14:45,400 --> 00:14:49,840 Speaker 1: of some traditions I think in like Chinese traditional medicine, 244 00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:52,720 Speaker 1: the idea that one should drink hot water as opposed 245 00:14:52,760 --> 00:14:56,240 Speaker 1: to chilled water. But then later on in the book 246 00:14:56,280 --> 00:15:02,480 Speaker 1: you also mention issues concerning the potential contamination of snow 247 00:15:02,520 --> 00:15:05,760 Speaker 1: with dirt. That later the idea that you could you 248 00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:10,120 Speaker 1: could have actual outbreaks due to contamination of. 249 00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:14,400 Speaker 3: A lot of the We were talking about the Roman 250 00:15:14,440 --> 00:15:18,040 Speaker 3: stuff and all earlier on a lot of that ice 251 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:21,280 Speaker 3: that was sold in those markets in ancient Greece, ancient 252 00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:28,440 Speaker 3: Romes actually snow compacted snow, and that contains inherently particles 253 00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:34,160 Speaker 3: of dirt and mud and bits. Where the market evolves 254 00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:39,360 Speaker 3: into thanks to a brilliant Bostonian guy called Frederick Tudor, 255 00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:43,560 Speaker 3: is the export of hand cut ice from lakes in 256 00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:47,160 Speaker 3: New England. And these are blocks of solid ice, and 257 00:15:47,320 --> 00:15:51,160 Speaker 3: solid ice is very much more pure than compacted snow, 258 00:15:52,240 --> 00:15:57,440 Speaker 3: and they were shipping this all around the world from 259 00:15:58,320 --> 00:16:01,760 Speaker 3: Tudor started in eighteen oh six and finally really got 260 00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:06,240 Speaker 3: it figured out in the eighteen twenties after the War 261 00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:09,680 Speaker 3: of eighteen twelve. Was you know, that kind of put 262 00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:13,600 Speaker 3: the kaibosh on him for a while. But as the 263 00:16:13,640 --> 00:16:19,920 Speaker 3: demand increases, you have two problems. The first is you 264 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:23,680 Speaker 3: want to make more ice faster for your stores. So 265 00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:26,000 Speaker 3: they would do this thing which is called sinking the well, 266 00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:29,000 Speaker 3: whereby having cut a bunch of ice out, they would 267 00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:31,320 Speaker 3: also drill extra holes in the top of a pond 268 00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:34,359 Speaker 3: or lake so that the water would well up and refreeze. 269 00:16:34,360 --> 00:16:36,960 Speaker 3: But what that would do would it would capture your 270 00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:40,400 Speaker 3: footprints between the original layer that you were walking on 271 00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:42,200 Speaker 3: and the water that welled up, so there would be 272 00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:47,600 Speaker 3: dirt trapped within the ice, which was not exactly pleasing 273 00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:50,360 Speaker 3: to the customer. But the bigger problem, as you point out, 274 00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:56,760 Speaker 3: as time goes on is pollution, and the uptake of 275 00:16:56,880 --> 00:17:04,399 Speaker 3: ice usage runs parallel alongside with the industrial revolution and 276 00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:11,560 Speaker 3: the various pourings of industrial waste human waste into the 277 00:17:11,600 --> 00:17:14,359 Speaker 3: waterways which were then being harvested for ice, and one 278 00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:18,160 Speaker 3: of the most awful cases. There was a mental hospital 279 00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:21,119 Speaker 3: in upstate New York that used to cut its ice 280 00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:27,160 Speaker 3: from the river downstream of where their effluent pipe ran 281 00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:31,280 Speaker 3: in and a number of people died. And this is 282 00:17:31,359 --> 00:17:33,760 Speaker 3: kind of the beginning of the end for natural ice 283 00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:36,000 Speaker 3: as a commercial proposition. 284 00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:38,600 Speaker 1: Now, now, thus far far, I know a lot of 285 00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:40,880 Speaker 1: listeners are probably you know, we're talking about the use 286 00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:42,000 Speaker 1: of this ice. 287 00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:42,960 Speaker 3: And hello, listeners. 288 00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:45,240 Speaker 1: Use is kind of a kind of a novelty. And 289 00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:48,480 Speaker 1: I know, I'm imagining drinks with ice in them, drinks 290 00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:51,400 Speaker 1: with bits of snow in them, and you get into this. 291 00:17:51,160 --> 00:17:53,280 Speaker 1: This is a really fun part of the book too, 292 00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:56,840 Speaker 1: talking about like a Florentine wine a chilling back in 293 00:17:56,840 --> 00:17:59,959 Speaker 1: the thirteen forty. Yeah, so I was thinking about that. 294 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:03,280 Speaker 1: But then, of course another important iced treat comes up, 295 00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:07,679 Speaker 1: And then of course is ice cream. Yes, where do 296 00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:10,480 Speaker 1: we seem to find like the oldest possible evidence of 297 00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:11,639 Speaker 1: ice cream in the world. 298 00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:15,639 Speaker 3: There's a lot of mythology wrapped up with ice cream. 299 00:18:16,920 --> 00:18:20,639 Speaker 3: So stories tell us that ice cream was invented in 300 00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:28,720 Speaker 3: China and that it was the privilege and unique dessert 301 00:18:28,960 --> 00:18:31,600 Speaker 3: of the Imperial Court and nobody else could have it. 302 00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:36,399 Speaker 3: And then the apocrypha goes on to say that Marco 303 00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:40,320 Speaker 3: Polo brought the recipe back to Italy. This absolute the latter, 304 00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:44,760 Speaker 3: It is absolutely rot. Or whether the Chinese we're eating 305 00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:48,200 Speaker 3: ice cream as opposed to of cooled, chilled things. That's 306 00:18:48,280 --> 00:18:52,159 Speaker 3: kind of hard to pin down. But ice cream in 307 00:18:52,359 --> 00:18:58,080 Speaker 3: the European context doesn't happen until the seventeenth century. There's 308 00:18:58,119 --> 00:19:02,639 Speaker 3: a lovely sort of piece of mythology that Catherine de Medici, 309 00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:06,040 Speaker 3: when she was married to the Dauphin of France, brought 310 00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:09,479 Speaker 3: the recipe and all kinds of other recipes with her 311 00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:13,000 Speaker 3: into France and transformed French cooking. But this is absolutely rot. 312 00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:18,560 Speaker 3: For one reason, she was thirteen fourteen and probably not 313 00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:22,159 Speaker 3: wildly interested in recipes at the time and would have 314 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:25,919 Speaker 3: been stripped of all things Italian at the border. For another, 315 00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:29,359 Speaker 3: the science of how do you make cream freeze was 316 00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:34,119 Speaker 3: not known in Europe at that point, although it was 317 00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:36,040 Speaker 3: known in other parts of the world, and it crops up. 318 00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:39,639 Speaker 3: There's a twelfth century Indian Treaties which describes how to 319 00:19:39,640 --> 00:19:43,520 Speaker 3: do it, and it basically involves making a brine solution 320 00:19:44,359 --> 00:19:48,240 Speaker 3: within which to freeze your cream. The thing is cream 321 00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:54,080 Speaker 3: freezes about half a degree lower than water, so even 322 00:19:54,119 --> 00:19:56,840 Speaker 3: if you just put it in ice, you're just going 323 00:19:56,920 --> 00:19:58,440 Speaker 3: to end up with cold cream. So you've got to 324 00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:02,680 Speaker 3: find a way to make the chilling snow even colder, 325 00:20:03,040 --> 00:20:05,040 Speaker 3: and the best way to do that is to add 326 00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:08,159 Speaker 3: a shed load of salt to it. Brine freezes at 327 00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:11,320 Speaker 3: are much lower temperature, so you can get the surrounding 328 00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:15,239 Speaker 3: liquid down to about minus sixteen celsius and then you 329 00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:17,639 Speaker 3: have a chance of churning your cream into ice cream. 330 00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:21,439 Speaker 3: And Europeans did not figure this out for quite a 331 00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:24,600 Speaker 3: long time. I think part of the reason being that 332 00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:27,640 Speaker 3: salt was so expensive. This is one of the things 333 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:29,840 Speaker 3: that is quite hard for us to grasp today because 334 00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:32,439 Speaker 3: you know, you go into the store and you can 335 00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:36,520 Speaker 3: buy a packet of kosher salt for less than a dollar. 336 00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:42,800 Speaker 3: The idea of salt being a prestige and expensive commodity 337 00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:47,040 Speaker 3: is something that battles us now. But it was, and 338 00:20:47,119 --> 00:20:49,920 Speaker 3: it was highly taxed as well. It was very highly taxed, 339 00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:56,680 Speaker 3: and so as good as ice cream tastes, even if 340 00:20:56,720 --> 00:20:59,000 Speaker 3: you know the science, you're not going to waste the 341 00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:01,720 Speaker 3: salt on it. If that makes sense. 342 00:21:02,520 --> 00:21:05,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, Because I'm just thinking to my own 343 00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:08,560 Speaker 1: experiences with making ice cream, like you end up using 344 00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:11,240 Speaker 1: a fair amount of salt, Like during it is like 345 00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:12,920 Speaker 1: a whole box of rock salt too. 346 00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:16,760 Speaker 3: Oh at least absolutely absolutely, do you handshen in one 347 00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:18,080 Speaker 3: of those old fashioned. 348 00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:21,280 Speaker 1: Oh no, I say that we tried. At one point, 349 00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:23,280 Speaker 1: we tried this device. It was like a ball and 350 00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:25,879 Speaker 1: the idea is you fill it up and then children 351 00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:28,399 Speaker 1: will play with the ball and that will eventually produce 352 00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:30,600 Speaker 1: ice cream via the churning. But we found that it's 353 00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:34,199 Speaker 1: a little too much to ask for children to continually 354 00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:36,320 Speaker 1: play with the ball that long, so it ends up 355 00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:38,200 Speaker 1: the adults just have to roll it back and forth 356 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:41,440 Speaker 1: across the ground until it becomes ice cream. 357 00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:45,760 Speaker 3: We have, imagine makes ice cream machine. We kind of 358 00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:47,479 Speaker 3: on the cheats way, but it works. 359 00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:53,640 Speaker 1: So coming back to opinions against chilled beverages, how did 360 00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:56,720 Speaker 1: the medieval world view the consumption of chilled beverages? And 361 00:21:56,760 --> 00:21:58,159 Speaker 1: then where do we see that, like, where do we 362 00:21:58,160 --> 00:22:01,800 Speaker 1: see a shift in general opinion of chilled beverages and 363 00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:03,159 Speaker 1: so forth? 364 00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:09,119 Speaker 3: Oh man, you'll bring in the big questions today, aren't you. Okay, 365 00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:13,719 Speaker 3: So in the medieval world, ice is certainly very present, 366 00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:19,399 Speaker 3: and we we know that particularly in the Middle East, 367 00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:23,720 Speaker 3: ice was was very popular. We we know stories of 368 00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:28,440 Speaker 3: salad There's a lovely myth about Saladein sending a sack 369 00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:31,280 Speaker 3: of ice to Richard the third when so Richard the 370 00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:34,320 Speaker 3: first and Richard the First was ill, probably not true. 371 00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:40,960 Speaker 3: We know again with Saladein there's the fantastic story of 372 00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:48,000 Speaker 3: him killing a guy called Raymond de Chatillon because Raymond 373 00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:52,760 Speaker 3: took a glass of iced rose water out of Saladein's 374 00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:55,160 Speaker 3: hand and drank it when it wasn't given to him, 375 00:22:55,359 --> 00:22:59,080 Speaker 3: and Saladin kills him stone dead, which is a scene 376 00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:02,720 Speaker 3: that crops up in Ridley Scott's Kingdom of Heaven, which 377 00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:07,639 Speaker 3: interesting movie. Original release cut, not very good, the director's cut, 378 00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:10,320 Speaker 3: which has an extra forty five minutes of stuff, and 379 00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:13,879 Speaker 3: it is actually quite the movie, and that scene is 380 00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:20,679 Speaker 3: very powerful. So we know the ice is very present, 381 00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:22,720 Speaker 3: and we know that people argue about whether it's good 382 00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:26,840 Speaker 3: for people or not. You always have your senecan kind 383 00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:29,760 Speaker 3: of people cropping up saying oh, you know, the party 384 00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:33,960 Speaker 3: poopers saying no, we shouldn't have any ice. But it's there, 385 00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:38,120 Speaker 3: is there is current, it's present, and it's as I said, 386 00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:42,560 Speaker 3: before is the preserve of the wealthy. As to whether 387 00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:46,280 Speaker 3: there's a shift or not of acceptance, I don't think 388 00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:48,920 Speaker 3: he never wasn't accepted. I just think that there were 389 00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:53,840 Speaker 3: your dissenters in literature who happen to be writing about it, 390 00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:58,800 Speaker 3: and their books survive. With a product like ice. The 391 00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:02,320 Speaker 3: fans aren't gonna buy they're writing, the dissenters will because 392 00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:05,600 Speaker 3: that sells. And twas ever, thus even you know, before 393 00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:08,760 Speaker 3: the invention of the printing press. So the people who 394 00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:13,720 Speaker 3: are who are writing and dissenting are are I think, 395 00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:16,520 Speaker 3: I think in the minority. I can't prove that because 396 00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:19,159 Speaker 3: there's just not enough information upon which to make a judgment. 397 00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:19,960 Speaker 3: But that's my hunch. 398 00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:23,679 Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, I mean it. It squares with a lot 399 00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:27,440 Speaker 1: of what we've been talking about with taking ice for granted. 400 00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:31,000 Speaker 1: And you know, unless you have an issue with it, 401 00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:33,879 Speaker 1: or in I guess in our experiences, unless there's a 402 00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:36,640 Speaker 1: problem in actually acquiring it, then you begin to realize 403 00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:38,280 Speaker 1: how how marvelous it. 404 00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:41,680 Speaker 3: Is well well exactly, and and you sort of see 405 00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:45,879 Speaker 3: that in the tropics, you know, people. That's why Frederick 406 00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:48,280 Speaker 3: Tudor hit on such a genius idea when he started 407 00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:52,680 Speaker 3: shipping it to the Caribbean and then further afield because 408 00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:56,680 Speaker 3: you had no ready source. I mean in Jamaica. I'm 409 00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:00,639 Speaker 3: I'm half Jamaica. My mother's from Antika Bay. We have 410 00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:04,040 Speaker 3: the beautiful blue mountains. But they don't get snow on 411 00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:07,440 Speaker 3: them that i'm they're high enough. But you know it's 412 00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:09,000 Speaker 3: too tropical, it's never going to happen. 413 00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:12,840 Speaker 1: So let's let's get back to cocktails. I was, I 414 00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:14,920 Speaker 1: was very excited when you brought it up. I almost 415 00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:17,720 Speaker 1: wanted to shift ahead to the cocktail discussion at that point. 416 00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:22,719 Speaker 1: But yeah, yeah, to your point, like we think about 417 00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:27,840 Speaker 1: about mixed beverages especially, and we instantly think about ice, 418 00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:30,240 Speaker 1: we may and then there's so many ways to add ice, 419 00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:33,840 Speaker 1: you know, particular shames of cube, the different sort of 420 00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:38,240 Speaker 1: grains of crushed ice. Do you have a particular favorite. 421 00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:40,359 Speaker 3: Well, it depends on what the drink is, to be 422 00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:42,560 Speaker 3: honest with you, If it's like us of old fashioned, 423 00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:47,880 Speaker 3: a nice large, big cube, you know, if if it's 424 00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:50,640 Speaker 3: something else, then that they're may be a bit more crushed. 425 00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:54,240 Speaker 3: I'm a big fan of a good stirred martini. 426 00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:57,520 Speaker 1: I know that some cocktail enthusiasts are so wild for 427 00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:00,520 Speaker 1: the for the pearl ice, or sometimes called here in 428 00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:04,440 Speaker 1: the States, that the sonic ice that I've seen memes about, 429 00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:07,399 Speaker 1: Like you're about leaving the bar if the if that 430 00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:10,000 Speaker 1: particular grain of ice is not available. 431 00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:14,320 Speaker 3: I think that that's I think that's a little ponsi 432 00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:17,280 Speaker 3: if we're I mean, I'm a dive bar kind of 433 00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:21,800 Speaker 3: a guy, so you know, I'm not that fussed about 434 00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:25,320 Speaker 3: about it. But that said, that said, I do have 435 00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:27,800 Speaker 3: a friend in Los Angeles, a barkeep there, and he 436 00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:29,520 Speaker 3: designs ice. 437 00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:30,639 Speaker 1: Oh wow. 438 00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:34,160 Speaker 3: And he has an ice business and makes bespoke cubes 439 00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:38,280 Speaker 3: of various shapes, these beautiful sort of globes of ice 440 00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:43,440 Speaker 3: that are about like three inches across, and they're wonderful, 441 00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:45,840 Speaker 3: wonderful things. You can't help but be impressed by that. 442 00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:49,120 Speaker 3: But I'm a simple boy. But let's talk. But let's 443 00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:52,119 Speaker 3: talk cocktails, Rob, come on, where's the big question? Let's 444 00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:53,080 Speaker 3: go all right? 445 00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:56,919 Speaker 1: Well, eventually you also you bring up Jerry Thomas's eighteen 446 00:26:57,000 --> 00:26:59,080 Speaker 1: sixty two Bartenders Guys, Yes. 447 00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:03,680 Speaker 3: One of Will's great book. Well, he only mentions ice 448 00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:07,320 Speaker 3: once in the book, and he says in the introduction 449 00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:12,480 Speaker 3: he says ice should be wiped clean and set aside, 450 00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:17,320 Speaker 3: and then he doesn't mention it again beyond the fact 451 00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:19,200 Speaker 3: that it's in all the recipes, but he doesn't talk 452 00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:21,800 Speaker 3: about ice again. It's such a commonplace by the time 453 00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:25,480 Speaker 3: he writes that book. It's ridiculous. This was this You 454 00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:28,199 Speaker 3: asked me earlier on about the way into this book. 455 00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:32,639 Speaker 3: And you know, I've done my time in Bars. I 456 00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:34,400 Speaker 3: worked in Bars when I was a student to pay 457 00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:36,280 Speaker 3: my way through college and all the rest of it. 458 00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:38,960 Speaker 3: So I've had Jerry Thomas on my shelf for a 459 00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:42,080 Speaker 3: long time because I've had the book for so long, 460 00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:45,080 Speaker 3: I suppose this kind of blew my mind. It was like, what, wait, Jerry, 461 00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:47,160 Speaker 3: where's the ice? What the hell is going on? Man? 462 00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:53,560 Speaker 3: I just you know, I couldn't quite get my head 463 00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:58,440 Speaker 3: around it. Eighteen sixty two, he writes that Frederick Tudor 464 00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:01,440 Speaker 3: starts trading his eyes out to Boston in eighteen o six. 465 00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:04,760 Speaker 3: That gap of time, what's that fifty four years? Fifty 466 00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:09,680 Speaker 3: six years? My mass is atrocious. Please forgive me. Ice 467 00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:15,760 Speaker 3: has become every day it's become an ordinary, unremarkable thing. 468 00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:20,160 Speaker 3: And this to me blows my actual mind. 469 00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:22,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, I found myself wondering if it was just like 470 00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:25,639 Speaker 1: ice was ice at that point then. There just hadn't 471 00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:27,960 Speaker 1: been a lot of innovation. It was just you were 472 00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:30,120 Speaker 1: sort of happy to have what you had or. 473 00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:34,840 Speaker 3: No, well, the innovation is is mister Tudor. And he 474 00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:38,280 Speaker 3: starts shipping, like I just said, in eighteen oh six 475 00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:42,600 Speaker 3: to Martinique, which doesn't go very well for him. He 476 00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:47,080 Speaker 3: hasn't got his his organization fully sorted, he hasn't got 477 00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:50,160 Speaker 3: an ice house built there to receive his cargo. It 478 00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:55,040 Speaker 3: largely melts on the dock. So he tries again the 479 00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:57,680 Speaker 3: next year, and he goes to Cuba, and that goes 480 00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:04,160 Speaker 3: rather better, but then start going a bit awright. He 481 00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:08,440 Speaker 3: manages the the first few years. The War of eighteen 482 00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:12,720 Speaker 3: twelve starts in of course, as its name suggests, eighteen twelve, 483 00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:16,680 Speaker 3: the seas are closed. The seas were closed earlier than that, 484 00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:21,000 Speaker 3: in eighteen oh seven, because the Americans didn't want to 485 00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:24,520 Speaker 3: have their seamen captured by the British impressed into the 486 00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:27,200 Speaker 3: British Navy who were fighting the French at that time. 487 00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:29,840 Speaker 3: So there was a whole thing going on with that 488 00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:33,560 Speaker 3: which made it quite tricky for him. He gets into terrible, terrible, 489 00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:36,120 Speaker 3: terrible debt to the extent that he's sent to prison 490 00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:40,040 Speaker 3: for it, and his father manages to get some people 491 00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:42,000 Speaker 3: together and have a whip bround and they bail him out, 492 00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:50,120 Speaker 3: and he gets back into business and he starts I 493 00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:53,520 Speaker 3: think it's Charleston first, and then Savannah in the South, 494 00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:56,120 Speaker 3: he starts shipping ice. And he also he doesn't just 495 00:29:56,200 --> 00:30:00,000 Speaker 3: ship ice to these places. He also invents ice bots 496 00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:03,640 Speaker 3: for our domestic use, which would put a lump of 497 00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:05,880 Speaker 3: ice on the top and you can keep your milky cheese, 498 00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:09,440 Speaker 3: your fish or whatever nice and cool. But his real 499 00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:16,280 Speaker 3: innovation is that he realizes that the gateway to the 500 00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:20,960 Speaker 3: ice business is drinks an ice cream. So whenever he 501 00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:23,320 Speaker 3: arrives in a place, when he arrives in Savannah, when 502 00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:25,720 Speaker 3: he arrives in Charleston in nineteen twenty four, when he 503 00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:29,440 Speaker 3: arrives in New Orleans, he gives the ice away to 504 00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:32,440 Speaker 3: bartenders for at least the first sort of period of time. 505 00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:35,720 Speaker 3: Because his theory is he writes one of his letters 506 00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:40,040 Speaker 3: to a guy called Stephen Cabot, who is managing one 507 00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:44,880 Speaker 3: of his ice operations in the Caribbean, is that I'm 508 00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:47,920 Speaker 3: going to paraphrase, I'm not going to quite quote this accurately. 509 00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:51,080 Speaker 3: He says, if a man has had his drink cold 510 00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:53,680 Speaker 3: for one week, he will not go back to having 511 00:30:53,720 --> 00:31:01,000 Speaker 3: it warm. And he's not wrong, particularly in those kind 512 00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:06,320 Speaker 3: of climates. And so you know, that's when the sort 513 00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:09,960 Speaker 3: of the ice cube gets into the old fashioned I 514 00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:12,560 Speaker 3: think is that is around that very era. I mean, 515 00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:15,280 Speaker 3: you know, nineteen twenty four he gets to New Orleans. 516 00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:18,480 Speaker 3: That's to me the birth of the cocktail right there. 517 00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:23,480 Speaker 3: He was brilliant. He was shipping to India by eighteen 518 00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:27,040 Speaker 3: thirty three, he was shipping to Australia by eighteen thirty five. 519 00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:31,560 Speaker 3: This is all hand carved ice from lakes in New 520 00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:37,680 Speaker 3: England going around the world. And it's one of those 521 00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:43,400 Speaker 3: brilliantly battling moments of history that's completely forgotten because we 522 00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:48,120 Speaker 3: don't need it anymore. But you know, there's this one 523 00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:50,920 Speaker 3: brilliant thing I think I reference reference it in the book. 524 00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:53,840 Speaker 3: I think about eighteen thirty seven, the ice supply dries 525 00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:58,520 Speaker 3: up in Calcutta, when the place goes nuts. All these 526 00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:02,160 Speaker 3: people are just going, you know, where is it? Their 527 00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:06,440 Speaker 3: editorials written in the newspaper saying, where has our ice gone? 528 00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:11,240 Speaker 3: How can we function like this, you know, and it's 529 00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:16,000 Speaker 3: kind of brilliant. So yes, because of Tudor's brilliance and 530 00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:20,440 Speaker 3: his determination to come into a place, bring a load 531 00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:23,560 Speaker 3: of ice, snack it up and sell it cheap and 532 00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:27,840 Speaker 3: turn it from being this luxury commodity for the wealthy 533 00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:30,680 Speaker 3: into an everyday necessity. And I think this is the 534 00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:34,840 Speaker 3: big thing. Is he makes it quittidian, he makes it ordinary. 535 00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:40,840 Speaker 3: He makes it something you cannot function without. That's why 536 00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:43,720 Speaker 3: Jerry Thomas is able to just say ice should be 537 00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:47,520 Speaker 3: washed and set aside, because to him is it is 538 00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:54,400 Speaker 3: now ordinary, and even as it is transforming his customer's experience, 539 00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:59,960 Speaker 3: even it is in eighteen sixty two beginning to form 540 00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:03,360 Speaker 3: the basis of the very first cool chains in the 541 00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:07,120 Speaker 3: United States, with big, massive locks of ice being strung 542 00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:11,840 Speaker 3: in hammocks in train cabins, over meat and vegetables, it 543 00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:17,840 Speaker 3: is now an everyday thing. And that's exactly the kind 544 00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:21,560 Speaker 3: of stuff that people don't write about, and it's exactly 545 00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:22,680 Speaker 3: why it's fascinating. 546 00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:34,160 Speaker 1: So coming back to wine a bit. We touched on 547 00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:38,360 Speaker 1: chilled wine earlier. How long does it seem like we've 548 00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:42,120 Speaker 1: been enjoying chilled wine? And and and I don't know. 549 00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:44,120 Speaker 1: I also can't help but think about the fact that, yes, 550 00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:46,840 Speaker 1: we still have for the most part, red wines are 551 00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:47,840 Speaker 1: not chilled. 552 00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:50,720 Speaker 3: Or they shouldn't be. There was there was briefly a 553 00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:53,480 Speaker 3: fashion in Britain in some point in the nineteenth century 554 00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:55,720 Speaker 3: if a chilling red wine, which is an abominable thing 555 00:33:55,760 --> 00:33:59,880 Speaker 3: to do, And I honestly don't know what they were thinking. 556 00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:05,920 Speaker 3: I'm frankly ashamed of them. But I think that the 557 00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:11,880 Speaker 3: chilling of wine is something that has gone on for ages. 558 00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:19,359 Speaker 3: We have in Athanaeus's book, I can never pronounce this, right, 559 00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:24,480 Speaker 3: I'm going to try the depth nonstropistai. He records a 560 00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:27,960 Speaker 3: story of the comic play right, diphilis going around for 561 00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:32,080 Speaker 3: dinner with this woman called good Natheia, and she has 562 00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:35,000 Speaker 3: snow that's been sent by one of her lovers, brought 563 00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:39,120 Speaker 3: in to chill the wine. So that's you know, nearly 564 00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:42,560 Speaker 3: you know, two thy five hundred years ago. I think 565 00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:48,239 Speaker 3: that humans have always liked a cold, refreshing drink. I 566 00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:51,759 Speaker 3: think that it's just part of who we are. It's 567 00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:56,080 Speaker 3: just that we haven't had access to it for the 568 00:34:56,200 --> 00:34:59,480 Speaker 3: vast bulk of our history. And with wine in particular. 569 00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:03,919 Speaker 3: We know the Tuscans were very keen on chilling their 570 00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:09,440 Speaker 3: white wines down in the middle part Lost millennium. We 571 00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:13,200 Speaker 3: can attest to that. And God knows, those lovely flinty 572 00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:18,120 Speaker 3: whites that they make are beautiful and nicely iced and cold, 573 00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:20,359 Speaker 3: so they clearly knew what they were doing. 574 00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:24,400 Speaker 1: Now, the book explores so many other exciting fields, and 575 00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:27,960 Speaker 1: you get into space exploration, medicine, the food supply chain. 576 00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:31,680 Speaker 1: There's a lot more invention history in there. And then 577 00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:34,439 Speaker 1: there's even I was I was surprised and delight about 578 00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:40,640 Speaker 1: there's a whole chapter on the Terror and the Erebus. Yeah, 579 00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:43,200 Speaker 1: and part I was excited at that because I very 580 00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:48,440 Speaker 1: recently watched that that adaptation of Dan Simon's novel The Terror. 581 00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:51,319 Speaker 3: Oh, I haven't seen that yet. I'm looking forward to that. 582 00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:54,440 Speaker 1: Oh I have not read the original book, so I 583 00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:57,400 Speaker 1: can't compare it to that. But my wife and I 584 00:35:57,440 --> 00:35:59,960 Speaker 1: loved it. Thought it was terrific, wonderful performance. 585 00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:05,439 Speaker 3: It's it's such a fascinating story and there's so much 586 00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:07,759 Speaker 3: that we just don't know about what happened to these 587 00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:16,840 Speaker 3: poor men. It is ghastly how poorly equipped and badly 588 00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:21,880 Speaker 3: prepared these men were sent into the answer. If the 589 00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:26,080 Speaker 3: boats had survived, arguably the men would but you know, 590 00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:29,480 Speaker 3: as Captain Willard tells us in Apocalypse, now never get 591 00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:30,040 Speaker 3: off the boat. 592 00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:32,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, even though, like like you point out in the 593 00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:34,560 Speaker 1: in in the book that you know they were they 594 00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:36,799 Speaker 1: had a lot of very advanced technology. They had these 595 00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:38,399 Speaker 1: sort of steam powered vessels, but. 596 00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:40,759 Speaker 3: They did they had, they were They were among the 597 00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:43,760 Speaker 3: first ships in the British Navy fitted with steam engines 598 00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:47,719 Speaker 3: that were retractable. They had retractable propellers, They had chimneys 599 00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:51,680 Speaker 3: that they even had a rubber dinghy. And they had 600 00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:54,200 Speaker 3: a monkey called Jacko, who by all accounts was an 601 00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:58,479 Speaker 3: absolute bastard. They had a dog called Old Napp who 602 00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:03,120 Speaker 3: was beloved by all letters that that that that came 603 00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:05,839 Speaker 3: back before they they finally went into the Arctic tell 604 00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:09,880 Speaker 3: us that Old nep was. It was a big crew favorite. 605 00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:15,520 Speaker 3: They had a vast library. They were incredibly ahead of 606 00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:19,239 Speaker 3: the curve in terms of their awareness of the need 607 00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:21,359 Speaker 3: to take care of the men's mental health should they 608 00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:23,960 Speaker 3: be frozen in and this is one of the things 609 00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:27,400 Speaker 3: they absolutely got right. The real problem for them is 610 00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:32,879 Speaker 3: their cold weather clothes were largely made of wool, which 611 00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:35,480 Speaker 3: is in fact the most terrible insulator if you're in 612 00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:39,120 Speaker 3: an Arctic environment, because you know you do the work 613 00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:41,279 Speaker 3: needs to be done, you sweat into the wool. Then 614 00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:44,320 Speaker 3: you stop working, you start getting cold, and the sweat 615 00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:48,280 Speaker 3: in the wolf freezes and this is a problem, and 616 00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:56,239 Speaker 3: nobody thought to ask the locals, apart weirdly from the 617 00:37:56,280 --> 00:37:58,879 Speaker 3: guy who was the first person to report back news 618 00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:01,759 Speaker 3: of what happened to the Franklin expedition, and explorer called 619 00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:05,640 Speaker 3: John Ray, who was a Scottish guy. He was a surveyor, 620 00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:09,480 Speaker 3: he was a surgeon. He's probably the only Arctic explorer 621 00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:11,600 Speaker 3: of the era from the UK who never got a 622 00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:16,960 Speaker 3: knight head. And he was the one guy who learned 623 00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:19,360 Speaker 3: how to speak to the Inuit and learned how to 624 00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:24,480 Speaker 3: move like the Inuit, dressed like the Inuit, survive hunt 625 00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:32,040 Speaker 3: exist in that fashion, and he is largely unique amongst 626 00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:35,600 Speaker 3: those nineteenth century polar explorers. And he was the one 627 00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:39,560 Speaker 3: guy who got the first, the first stories, the first 628 00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:43,400 Speaker 3: Inuit testimony of what happened to the men of the 629 00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:47,040 Speaker 3: Franklin expedition, as tragic as it was, and was rubbished 630 00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:50,120 Speaker 3: for his efforts by no lesser author than the ghastly 631 00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:58,080 Speaker 3: Charles Dickens, who, really, you know, was I can't talk. 632 00:38:58,719 --> 00:39:00,720 Speaker 3: I need to stop talking about Dickens. I can't stand 633 00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:03,480 Speaker 3: the man. He's been the bane of my life since school. 634 00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:05,880 Speaker 3: I can't read his stuff. He's a racist bastard. I 635 00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:08,280 Speaker 3: can't stand him. 636 00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:10,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, I wasn't familiar with I wasn't familiar with the 637 00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:14,480 Speaker 1: history of dickens involvement in all of them. 638 00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:18,640 Speaker 3: He was a great friends with Lady Jane Franklin, John 639 00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:22,879 Speaker 3: Franklin's widow, And when the Ray Report came in, which 640 00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:29,880 Speaker 3: told terrible stories of anthropophagy and starvation and enormous suffering, 641 00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:35,520 Speaker 3: he basically took to his magazine outlet, a periodical called 642 00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:41,640 Speaker 3: Household Words, to lambast these stories and basically say it 643 00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:48,960 Speaker 3: must have been the barbarous Inuit who 't our brave, 644 00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:53,840 Speaker 3: noble naval officers, rather than the meeting themselves. And he 645 00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:59,440 Speaker 3: couldn't He couldn't countenance the idea that a oral society 646 00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:04,040 Speaker 3: could know something and tell us something that might be 647 00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:09,719 Speaker 3: useful to him. That was preposterous because they couldn't write 648 00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:13,239 Speaker 3: anything down. Therefore, they're absolutely useless, in his opinion, and 649 00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:18,160 Speaker 3: he writes this stuff down, and you know, we tend 650 00:40:18,239 --> 00:40:22,719 Speaker 3: to remember his novels, which I find verbose and quite dull, 651 00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:27,760 Speaker 3: but generally speaking quite open hearted. His journalism not so much. 652 00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:34,040 Speaker 3: His journalism betrays the full on Victorian that he and 653 00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:37,720 Speaker 3: he can be both things at once. I mean, you know, yes, 654 00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:41,040 Speaker 3: and I was, weirdly, I was talking to a friend 655 00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:44,280 Speaker 3: on the phone earlier on the Only bit of Dickens 656 00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:48,440 Speaker 3: that I actually like is the David Lean film Great Expectations, 657 00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:51,520 Speaker 3: which I think is a tremendous movie and a brilliant 658 00:40:51,560 --> 00:40:53,759 Speaker 3: bit of storytelling. But one of the main reasons why 659 00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:55,560 Speaker 3: it's a brilliant bit of storytelling he doesn't have all 660 00:40:55,560 --> 00:41:02,160 Speaker 3: that bloody verbiage in it, and Lean is brilliant at 661 00:41:02,239 --> 00:41:04,799 Speaker 3: his image selection and everything else. It's a fantastic and 662 00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:10,839 Speaker 3: very disturbing movie. But Dickens and me, we're not friends. 663 00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:19,279 Speaker 1: So cannibalism Charles Dickens cocktails space exploration. You cover a 664 00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:22,000 Speaker 1: lot of ground in this book. Was there any area 665 00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:25,080 Speaker 1: in particular that you've found your self surprised that you 666 00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:26,920 Speaker 1: were going to be covering? Like, well, I didn't think 667 00:41:26,920 --> 00:41:28,439 Speaker 1: I was going to be writing about this in my book, 668 00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:29,680 Speaker 1: but here, I am, well. 669 00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:32,680 Speaker 3: I have to confess you've mentioned space exploration. I was 670 00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:35,360 Speaker 3: going to do a chat space exploration and then I 671 00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:37,279 Speaker 3: was late on my deadline and I didn't do it. 672 00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:41,080 Speaker 3: So sadly that's not in maybe if there's a sequel. 673 00:41:41,719 --> 00:41:49,040 Speaker 3: But the winter sports stuff, yes, was very interesting to me, 674 00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:53,360 Speaker 3: particularly the Jean Claude Killi stuff and the way he 675 00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:57,480 Speaker 3: became such a marketing phenomenon in the United States in 676 00:41:57,520 --> 00:42:01,839 Speaker 3: the early seventies and reading the Hunter Thompson article about him. 677 00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:05,600 Speaker 3: That was really interesting because it never occurred to me 678 00:42:05,719 --> 00:42:11,560 Speaker 3: I'm in part I mean, I'm godly I'm fifty now 679 00:42:11,719 --> 00:42:15,440 Speaker 3: and so when when I was a kid, ski coverage 680 00:42:15,560 --> 00:42:18,000 Speaker 3: was just beginning to happen on British television. We had 681 00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:21,200 Speaker 3: this show called magazine show called Ski Sunday, and it 682 00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:26,080 Speaker 3: would cover all the big races in Europe and it 683 00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:29,799 Speaker 3: was tremendously exciting and we were gripped. We only had 684 00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:32,200 Speaker 3: three channels, so we didn't have a great deal of choice, 685 00:42:32,440 --> 00:42:36,960 Speaker 3: but it was fantastic stuff. The medical chapter as well, 686 00:42:37,080 --> 00:42:42,640 Speaker 3: was was was eye opening, particularly Samuel Tillischman's Tisherman's Sorry, 687 00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:48,160 Speaker 3: his work on trying to freeze down the body of 688 00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:52,000 Speaker 3: a trauma patient as quickly as possible to try and 689 00:42:52,040 --> 00:42:55,960 Speaker 3: stop the brain damage before you can stop the bleeding. 690 00:42:56,760 --> 00:43:01,400 Speaker 3: The biggest problem that you have should you be shot 691 00:43:01,560 --> 00:43:05,360 Speaker 3: or stabbed is bleeding out and the organ failure that 692 00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:07,520 Speaker 3: then follows. And what he's trying to do, and he's 693 00:43:07,520 --> 00:43:10,439 Speaker 3: just going into the second phase of clinical trials right now, 694 00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:13,160 Speaker 3: is to work out a way that you get the 695 00:43:13,239 --> 00:43:17,120 Speaker 3: patient into the emergency room and you chill them right 696 00:43:17,239 --> 00:43:20,800 Speaker 3: down as fast as you can to protect the brain 697 00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:23,520 Speaker 3: and to protect the heart, so you can then get 698 00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:27,520 Speaker 3: in and you have time to deal with whatever the 699 00:43:27,560 --> 00:43:30,359 Speaker 3: traumatic issue is that is causing the blood loss. And 700 00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:34,520 Speaker 3: this is absolutely cutting edge stuff. And when I started 701 00:43:34,560 --> 00:43:37,920 Speaker 3: writing that chapter, I had no idea that mister Tischerman existed. 702 00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:42,759 Speaker 3: Doctor Tischman. That absolutely blows my mind. It's extraordinary. I 703 00:43:44,360 --> 00:43:50,279 Speaker 3: stumbled into that chapter because I saw a documentary back 704 00:43:50,320 --> 00:43:55,760 Speaker 3: in the nineties about using hypothermia in open heart surgery 705 00:43:55,800 --> 00:43:57,920 Speaker 3: and how it hadn't quite worked out, but it was 706 00:43:57,920 --> 00:44:01,440 Speaker 3: the history of the early state of open heart surgery 707 00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:05,279 Speaker 3: and how chilling the patient and using hypothermia was really 708 00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:07,320 Speaker 3: the best way to stop the heart jumping about before 709 00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:10,960 Speaker 3: somebody invents the bypass machine, and so I was fascinated 710 00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:13,480 Speaker 3: by the idea of how you can use hypothermia in 711 00:44:13,560 --> 00:44:19,320 Speaker 3: a therapeutical setting. Nothing prepared me for what doctor Tishman 712 00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:22,960 Speaker 3: is up to, and it is the most astounding stuff 713 00:44:23,719 --> 00:44:27,840 Speaker 3: and if it works, it's going to genuinely transform trauma medicine. 714 00:44:28,239 --> 00:44:33,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, remarkable stuff, especially comparing it to the earlier parts 715 00:44:33,040 --> 00:44:35,480 Speaker 1: of the book where you're talking about the experiences of 716 00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:40,360 Speaker 1: freezing to death. I've been very fortunate to never experience 717 00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:42,440 Speaker 1: that myself. When you're talking about like the phase you 718 00:44:42,520 --> 00:44:45,360 Speaker 1: reach where you're like, oh, I'm actually quite warm. I 719 00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:46,879 Speaker 1: need to strip a few layers off. 720 00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:51,520 Speaker 3: I know it's mad, And actually, when you read the accounts, 721 00:44:51,520 --> 00:44:53,799 Speaker 3: it actually doesn't seem like such a bad way to go, 722 00:44:54,880 --> 00:45:00,200 Speaker 3: you know. Apparently it's quite a trippy high, you know that. 723 00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:03,279 Speaker 3: I not that I want to freeze the dead, but 724 00:45:04,239 --> 00:45:07,319 Speaker 3: if there's an option, you know, that doesn't seem like 725 00:45:07,320 --> 00:45:09,560 Speaker 3: one of the worst ways in which one can step 726 00:45:09,600 --> 00:45:10,560 Speaker 3: off this mortal coil. 727 00:45:11,360 --> 00:45:13,279 Speaker 1: All right, well, Fred, thanks for taking the time out 728 00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:14,800 Speaker 1: of your day to chat with me about the book. 729 00:45:14,800 --> 00:45:17,479 Speaker 1: The book again is of ice and men. How we've 730 00:45:17,600 --> 00:45:21,799 Speaker 1: Used Cold to Transform Humanity. As of this publication of 731 00:45:21,840 --> 00:45:25,640 Speaker 1: this initial publication of this episode, the book is out 732 00:45:25,840 --> 00:45:28,080 Speaker 1: in the US, and I think correct me if I'm wrong, 733 00:45:28,080 --> 00:45:29,839 Speaker 1: but it's coming out in the UK in the next 734 00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:34,280 Speaker 1: couple of months in February. Okay, excellent. Well, I greatly 735 00:45:34,360 --> 00:45:36,680 Speaker 1: enjoyed it. I highly recommend it to all of our listeners. 736 00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:39,520 Speaker 1: I think everyone out there will enjoy the book. 737 00:45:39,680 --> 00:45:41,880 Speaker 3: Well, thank you so much, Robert. I've really enjoyed talking 738 00:45:41,880 --> 00:45:42,520 Speaker 3: to you this evening. 739 00:45:43,160 --> 00:45:47,279 Speaker 1: All right, thank you, take Cam out. Thanks again to 740 00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:49,520 Speaker 1: Fred Again. The book is of ice and Men, how 741 00:45:49,520 --> 00:45:53,040 Speaker 1: We've used cold to transform humanity. Highly recommend you check 742 00:45:53,080 --> 00:45:55,239 Speaker 1: it out. There's a little something in here for everybody, 743 00:45:56,360 --> 00:46:00,560 Speaker 1: just a wonderful exploration of something that you may taking 744 00:46:00,600 --> 00:46:03,520 Speaker 1: for granted right now. I didn't even think about it, 745 00:46:03,560 --> 00:46:06,600 Speaker 1: but throughout the interview, I of course had at an 746 00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:10,360 Speaker 1: entire container of iced water, chilled water, right next to me, 747 00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:12,960 Speaker 1: and I didn't even think about the connection. Thanks as 748 00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:17,239 Speaker 1: always to Seth Nicholas Johnson for producing the show. And 749 00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:20,160 Speaker 1: if you would like to reach out to me or 750 00:46:20,200 --> 00:46:22,759 Speaker 1: to Joe, any of us here at the show, you 751 00:46:22,840 --> 00:46:25,560 Speaker 1: can shoot us an email at contact at Stuff to 752 00:46:25,600 --> 00:46:32,560 Speaker 1: Blow Your Mind dot com. 753 00:46:35,680 --> 00:46:38,560 Speaker 4: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For 754 00:46:38,680 --> 00:46:41,439 Speaker 4: more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 755 00:46:41,600 --> 00:47:00,600 Speaker 4: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows. 756 00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:01,080 Speaker 4: A Foo