1 00:00:15,316 --> 00:00:23,676 Speaker 1: Pushkin back. In twenty twelve, when Sam Bankman Freed was 2 00:00:23,716 --> 00:00:27,156 Speaker 1: an undergraduate in MIT, he learned about a movement called 3 00:00:27,196 --> 00:00:32,436 Speaker 1: effective altruism or EA for short. The argument behind EA, 4 00:00:32,636 --> 00:00:36,676 Speaker 1: very roughly is that philanthropy is broken. People shouldn't be 5 00:00:36,716 --> 00:00:39,396 Speaker 1: giving away their money based on emotional attachments to certain 6 00:00:39,436 --> 00:00:43,436 Speaker 1: causes or institutions. Rather, they should lean more on evidence 7 00:00:43,436 --> 00:00:45,116 Speaker 1: and reason in order to do as much good as 8 00:00:45,156 --> 00:00:50,516 Speaker 1: possible in the world. Sam Bankman Freed soon became one 9 00:00:50,516 --> 00:00:54,116 Speaker 1: of the most famous proponents of EA. One of the 10 00:00:54,156 --> 00:00:56,076 Speaker 1: things that interested me when I met him the first 11 00:00:56,076 --> 00:00:59,676 Speaker 1: time was his interest in this. I found it curious. 12 00:00:59,756 --> 00:01:02,236 Speaker 1: I had heard bits and pieces about EA, but I 13 00:01:02,276 --> 00:01:05,036 Speaker 1: got the full throated version from him, And as I 14 00:01:05,036 --> 00:01:07,356 Speaker 1: started to write about his world, I found his company 15 00:01:07,436 --> 00:01:12,876 Speaker 1: FTX was filled with people who also considered themselves effective altruists. Then, 16 00:01:12,916 --> 00:01:17,796 Speaker 1: of course, Sam's cryptocurrency exchanged dramatically collapse last year. He 17 00:01:17,916 --> 00:01:20,316 Speaker 1: and FTX had been possibly the best thing ever to 18 00:01:20,356 --> 00:01:23,876 Speaker 1: happen to the effective altruist movement, but the best thing 19 00:01:23,956 --> 00:01:32,836 Speaker 1: quickly transformed into the worst. This is on background from 20 00:01:32,876 --> 00:01:45,996 Speaker 1: Against the Rules, I'm Michael Lewis. Effective altruism is running 21 00:01:45,996 --> 00:01:50,356 Speaker 1: through the background of my forthcoming book, Going Infinite. The 22 00:01:50,436 --> 00:01:54,236 Speaker 1: movement started just a few years before Sam Bankmanfreed encountered it. 23 00:01:54,556 --> 00:01:57,436 Speaker 1: I need to understand what effective altrus really believe and 24 00:01:57,676 --> 00:02:00,076 Speaker 1: what it is about this movement the so appealing to 25 00:02:00,156 --> 00:02:03,876 Speaker 1: smart young people, and also how these advocates are trying 26 00:02:03,876 --> 00:02:07,956 Speaker 1: to pick up the pieces after ftx's collapse. So we 27 00:02:08,036 --> 00:02:10,996 Speaker 1: found two college student who are leaders in effective altruism 28 00:02:11,116 --> 00:02:14,676 Speaker 1: organizations to talk to me about this. Al Shin is 29 00:02:14,716 --> 00:02:18,956 Speaker 1: a senior at Harvard studying statistics and Gabriel mccobe is 30 00:02:19,036 --> 00:02:23,236 Speaker 1: a senior at Stanford studying computer science. I started off 31 00:02:23,276 --> 00:02:26,316 Speaker 1: asking them how they'd explain effective altruism to someone who 32 00:02:26,356 --> 00:02:29,316 Speaker 1: knows nothing about it. Gabe answers, first. 33 00:02:30,396 --> 00:02:32,596 Speaker 2: We are like, at least I am like a person 34 00:02:32,596 --> 00:02:34,836 Speaker 2: with a lot of privilege. I'm born in the US, 35 00:02:34,996 --> 00:02:38,396 Speaker 2: I go to like a pretty good university. I'm a 36 00:02:38,436 --> 00:02:41,236 Speaker 2: man who has grown up in a middle class family. 37 00:02:41,316 --> 00:02:43,356 Speaker 2: Like I have a lot of privilege and resources to 38 00:02:44,076 --> 00:02:47,516 Speaker 2: do change and impact in the world. And maybe you 39 00:02:47,596 --> 00:02:50,316 Speaker 2: want to, like actually try to figure out what's the 40 00:02:50,316 --> 00:02:52,916 Speaker 2: way you can have the best positive impact and to me, 41 00:02:52,996 --> 00:02:56,196 Speaker 2: effective altriism is both like a framework for trying to 42 00:02:56,196 --> 00:02:59,356 Speaker 2: think about how we might do a whole lot of 43 00:02:59,356 --> 00:03:01,076 Speaker 2: good with our with our careers at our time, with 44 00:03:01,116 --> 00:03:03,556 Speaker 2: our other resources, and then a community of people who 45 00:03:03,596 --> 00:03:06,596 Speaker 2: are actually trying to put that into practice and actively 46 00:03:06,676 --> 00:03:10,156 Speaker 2: like push their careers and the resources towards doing a 47 00:03:10,196 --> 00:03:10,556 Speaker 2: lot of good. 48 00:03:11,556 --> 00:03:15,076 Speaker 1: What kind of pushback do you get when you're talking 49 00:03:15,116 --> 00:03:18,676 Speaker 1: to people your age about these ideas. 50 00:03:18,596 --> 00:03:24,996 Speaker 3: H I think one possible avenue of pushback is this 51 00:03:25,516 --> 00:03:31,796 Speaker 3: very cynical, almost nihilist view that you can't actually enact 52 00:03:31,956 --> 00:03:35,916 Speaker 3: positive change. The actual level of suffering in the world 53 00:03:35,996 --> 00:03:38,556 Speaker 3: is not going to be reduced. There's just not enough 54 00:03:38,596 --> 00:03:39,556 Speaker 3: people working on this. 55 00:03:39,716 --> 00:03:42,636 Speaker 1: Do you feel like what's under that objection is basic selfishness, 56 00:03:42,676 --> 00:03:45,756 Speaker 1: that that I don't really want to have to think 57 00:03:45,756 --> 00:03:47,876 Speaker 1: about the world this way. So if I can dismiss 58 00:03:47,916 --> 00:03:50,116 Speaker 1: these arguments as saying as being preposterous, I can go 59 00:03:50,156 --> 00:03:51,196 Speaker 1: about my selfish life. 60 00:03:52,236 --> 00:03:56,116 Speaker 3: Certainly there's some people like that, and I would not 61 00:03:56,196 --> 00:03:58,756 Speaker 3: say though, that everyone is like that. I think there 62 00:03:58,876 --> 00:04:03,836 Speaker 3: is genuinely people who have some level of very cynical, 63 00:04:03,956 --> 00:04:08,996 Speaker 3: nihilistic outlook as to what humanity can accomplish, and that 64 00:04:09,276 --> 00:04:13,316 Speaker 3: bleeds into not taking people seriously when they tend to 65 00:04:13,356 --> 00:04:17,716 Speaker 3: have a more hopeful, optimistic attitude. And even for people 66 00:04:17,756 --> 00:04:21,236 Speaker 3: who are very involved in EA, at some point, these 67 00:04:21,276 --> 00:04:24,196 Speaker 3: also just tend to be people who are philosophically inclined, 68 00:04:24,236 --> 00:04:27,156 Speaker 3: and the philosophically inclined also tend toward nihilisa at some 69 00:04:27,156 --> 00:04:29,156 Speaker 3: point in their lives. So maybe they'll come. 70 00:04:28,996 --> 00:04:29,956 Speaker 4: Back around. 71 00:04:31,396 --> 00:04:33,356 Speaker 2: And like about the point of like people being selfish, 72 00:04:33,396 --> 00:04:36,036 Speaker 2: Like I don't know when I was like first, like 73 00:04:36,116 --> 00:04:38,876 Speaker 2: thinking about the ideas, it can feel overwhelming. Sometimes they 74 00:04:38,876 --> 00:04:42,356 Speaker 2: give about like oh wow, like maybe the default thing 75 00:04:42,556 --> 00:04:44,196 Speaker 2: we're grown up with. As all said, is the world 76 00:04:44,236 --> 00:04:45,996 Speaker 2: kind of beats into you that you're just a tiny 77 00:04:46,036 --> 00:04:48,276 Speaker 2: little ant in this universe. You can't really do anything. 78 00:04:48,316 --> 00:04:50,476 Speaker 2: They are all these big systems. It's pretty hopeless to 79 00:04:50,476 --> 00:04:52,276 Speaker 2: actually do any change. And then EA is all like 80 00:04:52,356 --> 00:04:55,076 Speaker 2: whoa people can have an impact, You can be like 81 00:04:55,116 --> 00:04:57,636 Speaker 2: dispropersonally impactful, you can do all this stuff That feels 82 00:04:57,636 --> 00:05:00,836 Speaker 2: like a lot of responsibility. It also feels like maybe 83 00:05:00,876 --> 00:05:02,596 Speaker 2: a lot of pressure thinking about like, oh, do I 84 00:05:02,596 --> 00:05:05,276 Speaker 2: actually want to change the trajectory of my career. I'm 85 00:05:05,276 --> 00:05:08,516 Speaker 2: just like a young college student like I thought I 86 00:05:08,556 --> 00:05:10,876 Speaker 2: was going to like do these other like fun interesting things, 87 00:05:10,916 --> 00:05:13,916 Speaker 2: but maybe I actually want to like change totally what 88 00:05:13,916 --> 00:05:15,476 Speaker 2: I would work on, and that can be kind of 89 00:05:15,516 --> 00:05:17,196 Speaker 2: scary for me. I think I had some of that 90 00:05:17,636 --> 00:05:20,756 Speaker 2: maybe cognitive dissonance when I was first getting involved and 91 00:05:20,796 --> 00:05:22,356 Speaker 2: trying to think of like how much I wanted to 92 00:05:22,356 --> 00:05:25,676 Speaker 2: trade off, like what I would otherwise do if I 93 00:05:25,716 --> 00:05:30,356 Speaker 2: was like totally egoistic, versus what I wanted to prioritize 94 00:05:30,396 --> 00:05:33,796 Speaker 2: in terms of altruism and helping others and all this. 95 00:05:34,076 --> 00:05:39,316 Speaker 1: When I first heard the ideas, I had encountered them 96 00:05:39,356 --> 00:05:41,756 Speaker 1: in a very casual way because people had told me 97 00:05:41,796 --> 00:05:44,396 Speaker 1: about young people going to Wall Street to make money 98 00:05:44,436 --> 00:05:47,396 Speaker 1: to give it away, and I thought that that was 99 00:05:47,476 --> 00:05:51,116 Speaker 1: really interesting, what a curious subversion of Wall Street. But 100 00:05:52,196 --> 00:05:54,876 Speaker 1: when I first got the full blast from the people 101 00:05:54,876 --> 00:05:59,476 Speaker 1: at FTX, I remember thinking, this is so alien to 102 00:05:59,556 --> 00:06:03,716 Speaker 1: anything I heard or felt, or any impulse I had 103 00:06:03,756 --> 00:06:06,276 Speaker 1: when I was a college student, And I asked myself 104 00:06:06,396 --> 00:06:09,756 Speaker 1: like why, And I think the answer that the honest 105 00:06:09,796 --> 00:06:13,356 Speaker 1: answer was I didn't want to change the world. I 106 00:06:13,476 --> 00:06:15,916 Speaker 1: liked the world just the way I found it. There 107 00:06:15,996 --> 00:06:21,316 Speaker 1: was a kind of idiot happiness that I experienced when 108 00:06:21,316 --> 00:06:23,756 Speaker 1: I was a college student that would have inoculated me 109 00:06:24,436 --> 00:06:28,836 Speaker 1: against any kind of intellectual assault from an effective altruist. 110 00:06:29,396 --> 00:06:32,596 Speaker 1: You probably don't really run across that as much. I bet. 111 00:06:32,796 --> 00:06:38,036 Speaker 2: Also at Stanford there's like definitely a like people call 112 00:06:38,076 --> 00:06:40,116 Speaker 2: it the Stanford bubble. It's easy to like feel like 113 00:06:40,156 --> 00:06:43,436 Speaker 2: you're in this little utopia separated from the universe, and 114 00:06:43,436 --> 00:06:45,596 Speaker 2: a lot of people just like, I don't know, life 115 00:06:45,636 --> 00:06:47,676 Speaker 2: is good here and let's just go work in fintech 116 00:06:47,796 --> 00:06:51,076 Speaker 2: or something. But also there are like quite a lot 117 00:06:51,076 --> 00:06:53,636 Speaker 2: of people here who do recognize that the world has 118 00:06:53,716 --> 00:06:56,316 Speaker 2: quite a lot of issues, and a lot of people here, 119 00:06:56,356 --> 00:06:58,356 Speaker 2: I think do want to do things about that. Whether 120 00:06:58,396 --> 00:07:00,516 Speaker 2: that's like I don't know, there's like a lot of 121 00:07:00,556 --> 00:07:02,996 Speaker 2: people interested in climate change or social justice or things 122 00:07:03,036 --> 00:07:05,956 Speaker 2: like this. I think it's very much the case that 123 00:07:06,036 --> 00:07:09,356 Speaker 2: many young people now are at least very broadly in 124 00:07:09,436 --> 00:07:10,156 Speaker 2: with helping others. 125 00:07:12,116 --> 00:07:14,076 Speaker 1: After a short break, Gabe All and I get into 126 00:07:14,116 --> 00:07:19,076 Speaker 1: what sets effective altruism apart from ordinary altruism on background, 127 00:07:19,156 --> 00:07:28,876 Speaker 1: will be right back. I'm back with Harvard senior Al 128 00:07:28,956 --> 00:07:33,676 Speaker 1: Shin and Stanford senior Gabriel Mukobe on background, I would 129 00:07:33,716 --> 00:07:36,876 Speaker 1: love you both to explain to someone who's never heard 130 00:07:36,876 --> 00:07:41,316 Speaker 1: of these ideas, like, what's the difference between effective altruism 131 00:07:41,316 --> 00:07:44,076 Speaker 1: and just altruism ordinary philanthropy. 132 00:07:45,356 --> 00:07:50,276 Speaker 2: Yeah. So, Peter Wldeford, who's one of the co founders 133 00:07:50,276 --> 00:07:52,036 Speaker 2: of Rethink Priorities, has a recent. 134 00:07:51,796 --> 00:07:53,356 Speaker 1: Post that I quite like. 135 00:07:53,636 --> 00:07:56,116 Speaker 2: It's called eas three radical ideas I want to protect, 136 00:07:56,556 --> 00:08:00,916 Speaker 2: and the three ideas are radical empathy, trying to think 137 00:08:00,956 --> 00:08:03,676 Speaker 2: about the ways that society might be wrong in not 138 00:08:03,836 --> 00:08:07,436 Speaker 2: extending moral consideration to others. The second is scope sensitivity. 139 00:08:07,836 --> 00:08:11,036 Speaker 2: A lot of people are bad at actually estimating the 140 00:08:11,156 --> 00:08:13,436 Speaker 2: amount of impact certain things will do. If you like 141 00:08:13,476 --> 00:08:15,796 Speaker 2: survey people on like, hey, you could do this one 142 00:08:15,836 --> 00:08:19,316 Speaker 2: intervention and it would like save a thousand chicken lives 143 00:08:19,396 --> 00:08:21,116 Speaker 2: versus this other thing and it would save like one 144 00:08:21,156 --> 00:08:23,636 Speaker 2: hundred thousand chicken lives. And you ask the people like, hey, 145 00:08:23,636 --> 00:08:25,436 Speaker 2: how good is this thing compared to the other, and 146 00:08:25,436 --> 00:08:28,076 Speaker 2: then they like, way to un upscale. The difference is like, oh, 147 00:08:28,116 --> 00:08:29,556 Speaker 2: it's like goes from like a six to a seven. 148 00:08:29,796 --> 00:08:32,356 Speaker 2: So like, emotionally, a lot of people have a hard time, 149 00:08:32,836 --> 00:08:38,076 Speaker 2: like empirically or objectively evaluating the impact of things. 150 00:08:38,076 --> 00:08:41,236 Speaker 1: Of the things they do right or the money they give. 151 00:08:41,636 --> 00:08:45,836 Speaker 1: And EA is measuring this so that you have scope sensitivity. 152 00:08:45,516 --> 00:08:47,756 Speaker 2: Measuring or like at least just trying to be aware 153 00:08:47,796 --> 00:08:51,836 Speaker 2: of this effect and trying to actually do things that 154 00:08:52,036 --> 00:08:54,276 Speaker 2: seem to have more of an impact on others rather 155 00:08:54,356 --> 00:08:56,756 Speaker 2: than just like more impact on how we feel good 156 00:08:56,756 --> 00:08:59,796 Speaker 2: inside of our heads about us doing things. And then 157 00:08:59,836 --> 00:09:02,196 Speaker 2: the third thing is scout mindset. And this is the 158 00:09:02,236 --> 00:09:06,636 Speaker 2: idea of like thinking of your arguments and the ways 159 00:09:06,636 --> 00:09:08,956 Speaker 2: you approach the world, not as like soldiers. Like a 160 00:09:09,156 --> 00:09:11,836 Speaker 2: lot of people argue with each other as soldiers. Their 161 00:09:11,916 --> 00:09:14,036 Speaker 2: arguments are soldiers is the term, I guess where you 162 00:09:14,916 --> 00:09:16,956 Speaker 2: are on the right side. You're like fighting for your 163 00:09:16,996 --> 00:09:19,556 Speaker 2: kingdom or whatever, and you're going to say the things 164 00:09:19,556 --> 00:09:21,516 Speaker 2: in order to win the battle. This is different from 165 00:09:21,516 --> 00:09:24,316 Speaker 2: how scouts approach the world, where you don't know about 166 00:09:24,556 --> 00:09:27,756 Speaker 2: the territory and a landscape and you're trying to maintain 167 00:09:27,836 --> 00:09:31,396 Speaker 2: uncertainty over different possibilities and taking different evidence and try 168 00:09:31,436 --> 00:09:33,076 Speaker 2: to figure out what the truth is. Maybe this is 169 00:09:33,116 --> 00:09:35,556 Speaker 2: just a better way of approaching thinking about the world 170 00:09:35,636 --> 00:09:38,316 Speaker 2: that can enable us to be closer to the truth, 171 00:09:38,556 --> 00:09:41,916 Speaker 2: more honest and more objective and hopefully mess up less 172 00:09:41,956 --> 00:09:44,156 Speaker 2: when we're trying to do a lot of impactful things. 173 00:09:44,916 --> 00:09:46,596 Speaker 1: A can I ask you the same question, just like 174 00:09:46,676 --> 00:09:50,716 Speaker 1: if you're just explaining the difference between general do goodism 175 00:09:51,276 --> 00:09:55,076 Speaker 1: or philanthropy and effective altruism, how do you go about it? 176 00:09:55,756 --> 00:10:00,316 Speaker 3: I think effective in effective altruism is not to contrast 177 00:10:00,316 --> 00:10:04,636 Speaker 3: it with ineffective altruism, but to make it seem like 178 00:10:04,836 --> 00:10:08,316 Speaker 3: this is altruism that is really focused on the effects 179 00:10:08,596 --> 00:10:12,876 Speaker 3: of what we're doing, that isn't about how the do 180 00:10:12,996 --> 00:10:17,276 Speaker 3: gooder necessarily feels about the actions that they're doing, but 181 00:10:17,916 --> 00:10:22,276 Speaker 3: what amount of good do those actions put into the world. 182 00:10:22,556 --> 00:10:24,636 Speaker 1: How big a part of your life is it? Is 183 00:10:24,636 --> 00:10:27,916 Speaker 1: there anything you've done differently with your life because this 184 00:10:27,996 --> 00:10:29,396 Speaker 1: movement exists? 185 00:10:31,156 --> 00:10:35,876 Speaker 3: Hmm? I think it has altered the course of what 186 00:10:36,116 --> 00:10:39,516 Speaker 3: I chose to study. I mean I basically change from 187 00:10:39,556 --> 00:10:43,956 Speaker 3: some interest in computer science and machine learning and protein 188 00:10:43,996 --> 00:10:47,796 Speaker 3: folding coming into college into getting a more broader statistical 189 00:10:47,836 --> 00:10:51,436 Speaker 3: and probability base that could be generalized to more problems 190 00:10:51,516 --> 00:10:54,916 Speaker 3: depending on what seemed more urgent at the time, which 191 00:10:55,636 --> 00:10:58,916 Speaker 3: is forever changing. So I thought, like a more broad 192 00:10:59,436 --> 00:11:02,836 Speaker 3: probability basis would be good for that. I think there 193 00:11:02,956 --> 00:11:09,036 Speaker 3: is some reasonable limit you have to impose on your 194 00:11:09,196 --> 00:11:13,436 Speaker 3: self before you find yourself over optimizing to doing the 195 00:11:13,476 --> 00:11:17,596 Speaker 3: most good and ending up not necessarily operating like a 196 00:11:17,676 --> 00:11:20,196 Speaker 3: human being, but just like a little ball of stress 197 00:11:20,516 --> 00:11:23,516 Speaker 3: that is constantly tormented with the amount of suffering that 198 00:11:23,516 --> 00:11:27,316 Speaker 3: you're putting into the world. This is something that the 199 00:11:27,356 --> 00:11:31,796 Speaker 3: effective Altruism movement is trying to discourage among especially young 200 00:11:31,836 --> 00:11:35,836 Speaker 3: people who get involved, because again the philosophically minded, in 201 00:11:35,836 --> 00:11:38,596 Speaker 3: addition to going through a nihilist phase, also go through 202 00:11:38,636 --> 00:11:40,476 Speaker 3: like several neurotic phases in their life. 203 00:11:40,516 --> 00:11:45,716 Speaker 1: Probably what would be going too far with effective altruism 204 00:11:45,716 --> 00:11:46,276 Speaker 1: in your mind? 205 00:11:48,476 --> 00:11:48,756 Speaker 4: Hmm? 206 00:11:49,556 --> 00:11:52,476 Speaker 1: What line when someone crosses it in the movement do 207 00:11:52,516 --> 00:11:54,476 Speaker 1: you think I wouldn't do that? 208 00:11:54,956 --> 00:11:59,556 Speaker 3: Something like if you're forcing yourself to do something that 209 00:11:59,676 --> 00:12:06,436 Speaker 3: you hate, like absolutely despise, because of some abstract reasoning 210 00:12:06,516 --> 00:12:09,676 Speaker 3: that this is the most good that you, in particular 211 00:12:09,756 --> 00:12:14,116 Speaker 3: can do. I think sacrificing a lot of personal happiness 212 00:12:14,156 --> 00:12:17,596 Speaker 3: for like very uncertain future outcomes when there are options 213 00:12:17,596 --> 00:12:19,956 Speaker 3: that like you could do that you would be happy 214 00:12:19,996 --> 00:12:24,036 Speaker 3: with that aren't bad. It's like not impossible that someone 215 00:12:24,356 --> 00:12:30,356 Speaker 3: hears that, oh, this particular uh, like biosecurity or pandemic 216 00:12:30,356 --> 00:12:33,436 Speaker 3: preparedness or bio risk is a really important cause area, 217 00:12:33,716 --> 00:12:35,916 Speaker 3: and then they force themselves to go work in the 218 00:12:35,916 --> 00:12:38,316 Speaker 3: wet lab even though they hate lab work. They absolutely 219 00:12:38,316 --> 00:12:41,196 Speaker 3: despise it. They don't like the like PPA, they don't 220 00:12:41,196 --> 00:12:43,916 Speaker 3: like the protocols, they don't like working with chemicals or organisms, 221 00:12:43,956 --> 00:12:47,276 Speaker 3: et cetera. But for some reason they have decided based 222 00:12:47,276 --> 00:12:49,596 Speaker 3: on their reasoning, and this is the most important thing 223 00:12:49,596 --> 00:12:52,356 Speaker 3: that they can do. I would say that, like, this 224 00:12:52,476 --> 00:12:57,556 Speaker 3: extreme sacrifice of personal happiness and ability to enjoy the 225 00:12:57,876 --> 00:13:01,476 Speaker 3: work that you do is probably indicative that you like. 226 00:13:01,996 --> 00:13:04,956 Speaker 3: This is not something that the movement wants to induce 227 00:13:05,076 --> 00:13:07,276 Speaker 3: in people who are exposed to its ideas. 228 00:13:07,756 --> 00:13:10,196 Speaker 1: Right, gave, let me ask you this same question, like 229 00:13:10,676 --> 00:13:13,516 Speaker 1: how it's affected your life, your actual decisions you've made 230 00:13:13,596 --> 00:13:17,036 Speaker 1: or things you've done that you would not otherwise have 231 00:13:17,116 --> 00:13:19,196 Speaker 1: done if effective altruism didn't exist. 232 00:13:19,916 --> 00:13:22,836 Speaker 2: Yeah, Like, now I'm for my career, I'm like primarily 233 00:13:22,876 --> 00:13:25,996 Speaker 2: considering working in AI safety or policy or field building. 234 00:13:26,316 --> 00:13:31,036 Speaker 2: I think, like most directly, probably it's like accelerated my 235 00:13:31,516 --> 00:13:36,996 Speaker 2: like thinking of this and trying to critically analyze the 236 00:13:36,996 --> 00:13:39,396 Speaker 2: trajectory I want to set my personal career on and 237 00:13:40,356 --> 00:13:43,076 Speaker 2: what I should be doing to get there. So maybe 238 00:13:43,076 --> 00:13:44,836 Speaker 2: it's more of like a speed up effect than like 239 00:13:44,876 --> 00:13:48,596 Speaker 2: a drastic turn. I think it's been useful to have 240 00:13:48,636 --> 00:13:50,996 Speaker 2: both like this framework, this intellectual thing and the community. 241 00:13:51,116 --> 00:13:53,076 Speaker 2: And the community has been like really helpful and I've 242 00:13:53,076 --> 00:13:55,116 Speaker 2: made a lot of friends, and I'm like very thankful 243 00:13:55,156 --> 00:13:56,756 Speaker 2: to have a lot of people who are supporting me 244 00:13:56,796 --> 00:13:59,516 Speaker 2: and can talk to to discuss these very hard questions. 245 00:14:00,436 --> 00:14:04,316 Speaker 1: But this must come up in the community, Like where 246 00:14:04,316 --> 00:14:07,636 Speaker 1: do you draw the line? Yeah, yeah, definitely, And I'm 247 00:14:07,676 --> 00:14:11,236 Speaker 1: thinking not just like choice of career, but how about 248 00:14:11,236 --> 00:14:15,036 Speaker 1: a question like do you have kids? Is it a 249 00:14:15,116 --> 00:14:20,316 Speaker 1: selfish and ineffective pursuit having kids? I mean you hear 250 00:14:20,356 --> 00:14:21,156 Speaker 1: people talk about that. 251 00:14:22,396 --> 00:14:25,436 Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely. I hang out with people who are like 252 00:14:25,516 --> 00:14:28,236 Speaker 2: mostly too young to be having kids right now. 253 00:14:29,196 --> 00:14:31,196 Speaker 1: So what you're thinking about you But it's gonna come 254 00:14:31,276 --> 00:14:31,716 Speaker 1: up someone. 255 00:14:31,836 --> 00:14:32,396 Speaker 3: Yeah. 256 00:14:32,476 --> 00:14:35,156 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's certainly, like a lot of people writing on 257 00:14:35,196 --> 00:14:38,196 Speaker 2: the forum dot effective ulstulism dot org. There's one post 258 00:14:38,596 --> 00:14:40,796 Speaker 2: they had decided not to have kids, and they're like, wow, 259 00:14:40,916 --> 00:14:42,716 Speaker 2: this is this is just the rational thing to do, 260 00:14:43,636 --> 00:14:45,356 Speaker 2: like it's it would be selfish for us to do 261 00:14:45,356 --> 00:14:47,996 Speaker 2: as and they like committed to this, and they were miserable. 262 00:14:48,076 --> 00:14:50,196 Speaker 1: Yeah, And the argument argument is, you have you'll have 263 00:14:50,276 --> 00:14:52,916 Speaker 1: less of an impact on the problems that threaten humanity 264 00:14:52,956 --> 00:14:56,236 Speaker 1: and less of an impact on totally human happiness if 265 00:14:56,516 --> 00:14:58,956 Speaker 1: if you have to spend so many hours raising a child. 266 00:14:58,996 --> 00:15:01,476 Speaker 2: That was the general idea, the or like at least 267 00:15:01,476 --> 00:15:04,956 Speaker 2: the naive utilitarian idea perhaps, But it turns out they 268 00:15:04,956 --> 00:15:07,716 Speaker 2: were miserable. They like really didn't like it. So they 269 00:15:07,836 --> 00:15:10,236 Speaker 2: talked about it and decided like, yeah, it's actually, like 270 00:15:10,276 --> 00:15:12,156 Speaker 2: IL said, this is something we actually care about a lot. 271 00:15:12,156 --> 00:15:14,636 Speaker 2: That's like really integral to our personal happiness and to 272 00:15:14,676 --> 00:15:16,836 Speaker 2: our life satisfaction. We do want to have kids, And 273 00:15:16,876 --> 00:15:18,556 Speaker 2: they decided to have kids. And I think now they 274 00:15:18,556 --> 00:15:21,436 Speaker 2: have kids and they're much happier. They're also like more productive, 275 00:15:21,476 --> 00:15:24,196 Speaker 2: they said, and like this has actually been an increase 276 00:15:24,236 --> 00:15:27,596 Speaker 2: to their productivity and they're like self reported ability to 277 00:15:28,076 --> 00:15:31,036 Speaker 2: do a lot of good. So certainly, like people think 278 00:15:31,076 --> 00:15:32,716 Speaker 2: about this a lot and try to talk about it, 279 00:15:32,796 --> 00:15:36,596 Speaker 2: but it seems like there are no clear answers. Universally, 280 00:15:36,636 --> 00:15:38,556 Speaker 2: a lot of this stuff just depends on the individual. 281 00:15:38,596 --> 00:15:41,516 Speaker 1: Perhaps, how do you have anything to say about having kids? 282 00:15:42,356 --> 00:15:47,236 Speaker 3: Yeah, I would say on the flip side of this problem, 283 00:15:47,436 --> 00:15:50,796 Speaker 3: probably a lot of people have kids for the wrong 284 00:15:50,916 --> 00:15:56,956 Speaker 3: reasons too, like social pressure, familial pressure, et cetera. And 285 00:15:57,596 --> 00:16:00,436 Speaker 3: maybe being an effective altruism makes them more likely to 286 00:16:00,556 --> 00:16:03,836 Speaker 3: identify like these pressures that are causing them to make 287 00:16:03,876 --> 00:16:06,596 Speaker 3: a decision that wouldn't be good for them, either in 288 00:16:06,716 --> 00:16:08,916 Speaker 3: terms of personal happiness or even in terms of their 289 00:16:09,236 --> 00:16:10,196 Speaker 3: Do you solve the problem? 290 00:16:10,356 --> 00:16:13,076 Speaker 1: Do you all have these discussions about kids? 291 00:16:13,116 --> 00:16:13,556 Speaker 3: Not really? 292 00:16:13,996 --> 00:16:16,556 Speaker 1: Not really? What about kidneys? What about giving a kidney? 293 00:16:19,636 --> 00:16:22,756 Speaker 1: So the first my characters had big talks about kids 294 00:16:22,796 --> 00:16:24,596 Speaker 1: and mostly came down on the side you're not supposed 295 00:16:24,596 --> 00:16:27,956 Speaker 1: to have them. They were arguing, that's where they settled. Mostly. 296 00:16:28,316 --> 00:16:31,636 Speaker 1: The kidney question was another one, like do you have 297 00:16:31,676 --> 00:16:34,836 Speaker 1: an obligation to give away your kidney? Yeah? 298 00:16:34,956 --> 00:16:37,796 Speaker 2: It seems like there's like a lot of discussion about 299 00:16:37,836 --> 00:16:40,676 Speaker 2: this several years ago in the EA community, at least 300 00:16:40,676 --> 00:16:43,036 Speaker 2: like what I've read online. I was not involved, Like 301 00:16:43,116 --> 00:16:43,676 Speaker 2: back then. 302 00:16:44,156 --> 00:16:45,916 Speaker 1: You were your post, you're a post. 303 00:16:45,876 --> 00:16:48,916 Speaker 2: Post kidney yeah post. A lot of people were thinking 304 00:16:48,916 --> 00:16:51,476 Speaker 2: about this and it seems like there is like quite 305 00:16:51,516 --> 00:16:53,836 Speaker 2: a compelling case. Maybe like a lot of people just 306 00:16:53,956 --> 00:16:56,276 Speaker 2: die from being on the kidney wait list, and like 307 00:16:56,316 --> 00:16:59,636 Speaker 2: there aren't enough kidneys, and uh, seems like generally it's 308 00:16:59,796 --> 00:17:02,636 Speaker 2: somewhat safe to survive on one kidney for a lot 309 00:17:02,676 --> 00:17:04,876 Speaker 2: of people. Maybe this just like is a very direct 310 00:17:04,876 --> 00:17:07,876 Speaker 2: way to mostly kind of factually save someone's life. So 311 00:17:07,916 --> 00:17:10,316 Speaker 2: I think that's like, I don't know pretty any strong case. 312 00:17:10,556 --> 00:17:12,876 Speaker 2: I've not thought about this a lot. I've not given 313 00:17:12,876 --> 00:17:15,276 Speaker 2: a kidney. I don't know anyone else of like my 314 00:17:15,476 --> 00:17:18,916 Speaker 2: ea friends who has. It seems like for for various reasons, 315 00:17:18,916 --> 00:17:21,316 Speaker 2: this is like falling out of favor in the in 316 00:17:21,356 --> 00:17:24,036 Speaker 2: the conversations. It's also just like a very extreme kind 317 00:17:24,036 --> 00:17:27,156 Speaker 2: of commitment, Like it's it's a very bad recruiting strategy 318 00:17:27,196 --> 00:17:29,116 Speaker 2: to be like, hey have you heard of effective autism? 319 00:17:29,356 --> 00:17:32,396 Speaker 2: By the way, can we have your kidney? This is 320 00:17:32,436 --> 00:17:34,716 Speaker 2: this is like I don't know, it's not the best 321 00:17:34,716 --> 00:17:38,436 Speaker 2: way to like approach people, I think, And yeah, maybe it's. 322 00:17:38,316 --> 00:17:40,676 Speaker 1: Really this it's kind of a second date conversation. 323 00:17:40,876 --> 00:17:44,036 Speaker 2: Yeah, you got to give it a little time to do, perhaps, right. 324 00:17:44,196 --> 00:17:48,516 Speaker 3: I've had some friends bring up the discussion of kidney's 325 00:17:48,836 --> 00:17:53,756 Speaker 3: it still seems mostly like I throw away philosophical argument 326 00:17:53,796 --> 00:17:58,396 Speaker 3: then necessarily a direct moral imperative. I don't think there's 327 00:17:58,396 --> 00:18:01,236 Speaker 3: ever been a instance where someone who's like, I'm going 328 00:18:01,276 --> 00:18:03,356 Speaker 3: to donate my kidney unless someone gives me a good 329 00:18:03,436 --> 00:18:04,276 Speaker 3: argument to stop me. 330 00:18:04,556 --> 00:18:10,116 Speaker 1: Right now, I'm curious, are there still debates with NEA 331 00:18:10,156 --> 00:18:17,476 Speaker 1: about focusing on immediate suffering versus focusing on big, long 332 00:18:17,596 --> 00:18:21,156 Speaker 1: term existential threats, current lives versus lives in the future. 333 00:18:21,756 --> 00:18:23,236 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, definitely, definitely. 334 00:18:25,196 --> 00:18:28,516 Speaker 1: Is it kind of still an urgent top of your conversation, Anya. 335 00:18:28,956 --> 00:18:33,276 Speaker 3: I would say yes, but it's not stopping people from 336 00:18:33,476 --> 00:18:37,276 Speaker 3: doing work in either of those areas. While the debate 337 00:18:37,356 --> 00:18:41,076 Speaker 3: is not settled, certainly people are still pushing forward and 338 00:18:41,876 --> 00:18:47,316 Speaker 3: no solving or alleviating tuberculosis burden versus working on these 339 00:18:47,356 --> 00:18:49,596 Speaker 3: like accidential threats that might happen in the future. 340 00:18:50,316 --> 00:18:52,396 Speaker 1: We're going to take a break here. When we return, 341 00:18:52,516 --> 00:18:55,396 Speaker 1: Gave and Al talk about effective altruism and the idea 342 00:18:55,436 --> 00:19:05,836 Speaker 1: of the bank Shop. It's interesting to me because after 343 00:19:05,956 --> 00:19:08,356 Speaker 1: my main character in the book, after Sam Bankman freed, 344 00:19:09,396 --> 00:19:13,956 Speaker 1: he does collide with THEA and in its very early incarnation, 345 00:19:14,556 --> 00:19:16,916 Speaker 1: and in its early and its first incarnation, it really 346 00:19:16,956 --> 00:19:20,116 Speaker 1: is about like taking some of your salary and giving 347 00:19:20,156 --> 00:19:24,756 Speaker 1: it to an effective charity, that is, you know, saving 348 00:19:24,756 --> 00:19:29,636 Speaker 1: the most lives in poor countries. And a year into it, 349 00:19:29,716 --> 00:19:33,116 Speaker 1: there's a kind of intellectual revolution inside of the in 350 00:19:33,156 --> 00:19:36,236 Speaker 1: the minds of the very people who who brought him EA, 351 00:19:36,996 --> 00:19:39,836 Speaker 1: and they are starting to argue that actually the more 352 00:19:39,876 --> 00:19:43,636 Speaker 1: impactful thing to do is try to prevent humanity from 353 00:19:43,636 --> 00:19:46,596 Speaker 1: being wiped out by some pathogen or by you know, 354 00:19:46,716 --> 00:19:51,556 Speaker 1: unaligned AI or or whatever it is. And I'm just 355 00:19:51,636 --> 00:19:54,636 Speaker 1: kind of wondering how alive that debate still is, or 356 00:19:54,636 --> 00:19:57,836 Speaker 1: if it's just kind of a dead letter, or if 357 00:19:57,876 --> 00:20:00,396 Speaker 1: it's affecting the way you're thinking about what you're doing 358 00:20:00,436 --> 00:20:01,716 Speaker 1: with your lives. 359 00:20:02,516 --> 00:20:05,956 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think a big unsettled question here is being 360 00:20:05,956 --> 00:20:10,636 Speaker 3: able to prioritize these very different moral responsibilities we have 361 00:20:10,876 --> 00:20:14,876 Speaker 3: around harm. So I think this is something Elizabeth Ashford 362 00:20:14,916 --> 00:20:18,836 Speaker 3: introduced a few years ago, this idea of like primary, secondary, 363 00:20:18,836 --> 00:20:22,796 Speaker 3: and tertiary moral responsibilities. Primary is you personally don't do harm, 364 00:20:23,036 --> 00:20:26,556 Speaker 3: Secondary is you prevent other people from doing harm to others, 365 00:20:26,756 --> 00:20:30,036 Speaker 3: And third is if someone has experienced harm you work 366 00:20:30,116 --> 00:20:36,396 Speaker 3: to alleviate that harm. So in terms of this, it's 367 00:20:36,476 --> 00:20:40,556 Speaker 3: really a very difficult prioritization scheme when you have all 368 00:20:40,596 --> 00:20:44,996 Speaker 3: these different responsibilities toward harm. And if one of these categories, 369 00:20:45,036 --> 00:20:48,596 Speaker 3: which for example, would be like alleviating as I mentioned before, 370 00:20:48,636 --> 00:20:52,676 Speaker 3: tuberculosis burden that affects millions of people, is still a 371 00:20:52,756 --> 00:20:57,596 Speaker 3: leading infectious disease killer versus preventing a pandemic from being 372 00:20:57,676 --> 00:21:01,156 Speaker 3: engineered that could kill everybody, it's very difficult to see 373 00:21:01,196 --> 00:21:05,836 Speaker 3: where the moral prioritization lines up in terms of what 374 00:21:06,116 --> 00:21:09,676 Speaker 3: you should personally work on. And it's also something that 375 00:21:09,876 --> 00:21:13,316 Speaker 3: like might not necessarily be solvable with doing like a 376 00:21:13,316 --> 00:21:18,676 Speaker 3: probability calculation, because like moral responsibility is not necessarily something 377 00:21:18,676 --> 00:21:20,436 Speaker 3: that you can like boil down to numbers. 378 00:21:20,956 --> 00:21:24,436 Speaker 1: It's also hard to make probability calculations about a lot 379 00:21:24,436 --> 00:21:25,676 Speaker 1: of the existential threats. 380 00:21:26,596 --> 00:21:30,076 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like certainly it's probably like harder than you're 381 00:21:30,116 --> 00:21:32,116 Speaker 2: like more likely to be wrong than like a randomized 382 00:21:32,156 --> 00:21:35,236 Speaker 2: control trial of malaria interventions. Right at the same time, 383 00:21:35,276 --> 00:21:37,796 Speaker 2: I think a lot of people can make pretty good 384 00:21:38,036 --> 00:21:40,796 Speaker 2: educated guesses, perhaps based on the evidence we have and 385 00:21:40,836 --> 00:21:43,236 Speaker 2: the reasoning we have about things like a lot of 386 00:21:43,276 --> 00:21:46,956 Speaker 2: people in the EA movement perhaps predicted something like COVID 387 00:21:47,076 --> 00:21:48,556 Speaker 2: before it happened. A lot of people are like raising 388 00:21:48,596 --> 00:21:50,636 Speaker 2: the fire alarms of we should have much better pandemic 389 00:21:50,676 --> 00:21:55,796 Speaker 2: preparedness and monitoring and rapid vaccine development programs, and then 390 00:21:55,996 --> 00:21:58,196 Speaker 2: they like, for various reasons, messed up and weren't listened 391 00:21:58,196 --> 00:22:01,996 Speaker 2: to and COVID happened. Anyway, Maybe like similar things are 392 00:22:01,996 --> 00:22:05,036 Speaker 2: happening with with AI risk now too, where if you 393 00:22:05,076 --> 00:22:08,076 Speaker 2: survey like leading machine learning experts who are like not 394 00:22:08,156 --> 00:22:10,836 Speaker 2: focused on these risks and are just like people publishing 395 00:22:10,876 --> 00:22:13,756 Speaker 2: top papers that some of the top machine learning conferences. 396 00:22:14,196 --> 00:22:17,636 Speaker 2: The result from the most recent AI impact survey was, 397 00:22:17,676 --> 00:22:20,476 Speaker 2: like the median respondent gives like a ten percent chance 398 00:22:20,556 --> 00:22:24,116 Speaker 2: that the development of AI will like destroy everyone, like 399 00:22:24,156 --> 00:22:26,556 Speaker 2: results in catastrophic outcomes, including human extinction. 400 00:22:26,796 --> 00:22:28,796 Speaker 1: They're real things, They're possibly real. 401 00:22:28,876 --> 00:22:30,716 Speaker 3: I definitely agree with Gabe on this point that the 402 00:22:31,516 --> 00:22:35,236 Speaker 3: difficulty and maybe the lack of clarity on an exact 403 00:22:35,916 --> 00:22:38,996 Speaker 3: number of people that might be killed by AI in 404 00:22:38,996 --> 00:22:42,116 Speaker 3: the future is not a counter argument to the fact 405 00:22:42,156 --> 00:22:45,796 Speaker 3: that this could be a really big problem. Like the uncertainty, 406 00:22:45,876 --> 00:22:49,676 Speaker 3: isn't that like there's a super super super high probability 407 00:22:49,716 --> 00:22:52,636 Speaker 3: that nothing is going to happen. There's definitely lots of 408 00:22:53,116 --> 00:22:57,076 Speaker 3: fairly fairly good analysis on things that may come to 409 00:22:57,116 --> 00:23:00,196 Speaker 3: pass if we don't do anything to regulate or do 410 00:23:00,476 --> 00:23:01,596 Speaker 3: solve certain issues. 411 00:23:02,036 --> 00:23:04,316 Speaker 1: The characters in my book did this bank shot that 412 00:23:04,916 --> 00:23:08,116 Speaker 1: effective altruism kind of dreamed up They all earned to 413 00:23:08,116 --> 00:23:10,796 Speaker 1: give idea that you go do a job that you 414 00:23:10,876 --> 00:23:13,356 Speaker 1: might not necessarily do to maximize the dollars you make 415 00:23:13,396 --> 00:23:15,636 Speaker 1: that you can then give away to people like you 416 00:23:15,876 --> 00:23:17,036 Speaker 1: so you can do what you're doing. 417 00:23:17,716 --> 00:23:20,556 Speaker 2: Yeah, so certainly a lot of early EA stuff was 418 00:23:20,636 --> 00:23:23,156 Speaker 2: kind of focused on, hey, we're just a very small movement, 419 00:23:23,796 --> 00:23:25,876 Speaker 2: maybe we should like figure out ways to more effectively 420 00:23:25,916 --> 00:23:30,556 Speaker 2: direct philanthropic funds towards more impactful organizations. Over time, as 421 00:23:30,596 --> 00:23:32,956 Speaker 2: the community has grown, as people have engaged in these 422 00:23:32,996 --> 00:23:35,276 Speaker 2: ideas further, now people are like, hey, what if we 423 00:23:35,316 --> 00:23:37,716 Speaker 2: are the philanthropic organizations, what if we actually do this 424 00:23:37,756 --> 00:23:39,836 Speaker 2: direct work and try to have more of an impact. 425 00:23:40,516 --> 00:23:43,676 Speaker 2: There's certainly like a lot of current issues, like a 426 00:23:43,676 --> 00:23:46,636 Speaker 2: lot of perhaps global health and developments and animal welfare, 427 00:23:46,676 --> 00:23:48,196 Speaker 2: things that can just benefit from a lot of money. 428 00:23:48,196 --> 00:23:50,756 Speaker 2: Maybe that's where a lot of this funding still goes to. 429 00:23:50,956 --> 00:23:53,276 Speaker 2: But certainly they are like a lot of within there, 430 00:23:53,356 --> 00:23:55,916 Speaker 2: within those fields and within other causes, there's like still 431 00:23:55,916 --> 00:23:58,476 Speaker 2: a very big need for people doing direct work, and 432 00:23:58,516 --> 00:24:00,076 Speaker 2: so it's maybe more of the current focus. 433 00:24:02,036 --> 00:24:06,356 Speaker 1: Is that true, it's Harvard too, ol I would say so. 434 00:24:06,396 --> 00:24:10,796 Speaker 3: Certainly we do have some aspects of even our introductory 435 00:24:10,796 --> 00:24:15,876 Speaker 3: fellowship that is more of this classic If you have 436 00:24:16,036 --> 00:24:20,116 Speaker 3: like spare money and a lot of people would benefit 437 00:24:20,156 --> 00:24:24,196 Speaker 3: from donating it, then you probably should and you should 438 00:24:24,236 --> 00:24:26,516 Speaker 3: make sure it goes to highly effective charities that can 439 00:24:26,956 --> 00:24:29,116 Speaker 3: make that money go as far as possible and save 440 00:24:29,116 --> 00:24:33,716 Speaker 3: the most people. What we don't really encourage is making 441 00:24:35,036 --> 00:24:38,036 Speaker 3: lots of money and then expecting people to donate it 442 00:24:38,316 --> 00:24:43,116 Speaker 3: for a lot of the same reasons that Gabe has outlined. Generally, 443 00:24:43,196 --> 00:24:46,916 Speaker 3: like the people who are coming into Harvard EA tend 444 00:24:46,916 --> 00:24:49,716 Speaker 3: to have like very specialized skill sets and ability to 445 00:24:49,796 --> 00:24:55,516 Speaker 3: acquire like lots of really really cool cool skills basically, 446 00:24:55,916 --> 00:24:59,476 Speaker 3: and if it we didn't like direct them to doing 447 00:24:59,596 --> 00:25:01,916 Speaker 3: like the very best things that they could do with 448 00:25:01,956 --> 00:25:06,116 Speaker 3: like these very specific and unique talents, then this would 449 00:25:06,156 --> 00:25:08,676 Speaker 3: also be like quite a quite a waste. 450 00:25:08,796 --> 00:25:11,396 Speaker 1: It's a interesting because it's very different from what was 451 00:25:11,436 --> 00:25:14,636 Speaker 1: being pitched by the leaders of effective altruism back when 452 00:25:14,636 --> 00:25:17,236 Speaker 1: Sam Beckman Free was MT he listened to speech where 453 00:25:17,436 --> 00:25:20,396 Speaker 1: it was really encouraging the audience to go to Wall 454 00:25:20,396 --> 00:25:23,156 Speaker 1: Street or go into some high paying job and channel 455 00:25:23,196 --> 00:25:26,436 Speaker 1: the dollars. You know, instead of being a doctor in Africa, 456 00:25:26,516 --> 00:25:31,796 Speaker 1: you could pay for ten doctors in Africa. And that's 457 00:25:31,636 --> 00:25:33,716 Speaker 1: that idea is not kicking around in the same way. 458 00:25:34,436 --> 00:25:37,316 Speaker 2: I think it's also much harder perhaps now to be 459 00:25:37,396 --> 00:25:39,756 Speaker 2: like really successful at earning to give compared to some 460 00:25:39,756 --> 00:25:42,196 Speaker 2: of this other stuff. Like maybe earning to give is 461 00:25:42,236 --> 00:25:44,636 Speaker 2: much more heavy tailed in the sense that it's just 462 00:25:44,676 --> 00:25:47,236 Speaker 2: the very few people who make like, like the very 463 00:25:47,236 --> 00:25:49,596 Speaker 2: extreme amounts of money who can like pay for a 464 00:25:49,596 --> 00:25:50,396 Speaker 2: lot of this stuff. 465 00:25:50,476 --> 00:25:53,036 Speaker 1: It's funny because he earn to give idea originates with 466 00:25:53,076 --> 00:25:56,316 Speaker 1: Toby Ord doing it himself, and he's a He's on 467 00:25:56,356 --> 00:26:00,596 Speaker 1: an Oxford professor's salary and arguing and making the point 468 00:26:00,596 --> 00:26:04,116 Speaker 1: that just by donating an oversized chunk of his salary 469 00:26:04,156 --> 00:26:07,156 Speaker 1: not so much that he couldn't survive, that he would 470 00:26:07,196 --> 00:26:10,716 Speaker 1: save like eighty thousand children from likeness in Africa, and 471 00:26:11,076 --> 00:26:15,196 Speaker 1: it's that idea was intoxicating to Sam and to the 472 00:26:15,196 --> 00:26:17,876 Speaker 1: people around him, but it doesn't sound like it's really 473 00:26:18,276 --> 00:26:20,996 Speaker 1: it's as infectious with you all. The reason that's odd 474 00:26:21,036 --> 00:26:22,716 Speaker 1: to me is that you're both sitting in institutions that 475 00:26:22,756 --> 00:26:25,996 Speaker 1: are pipelines to very high paying jobs in tech and finance, 476 00:26:26,596 --> 00:26:28,476 Speaker 1: and it's sort of like that it would be a 477 00:26:28,956 --> 00:26:30,316 Speaker 1: it would be a natural step. 478 00:26:30,796 --> 00:26:33,196 Speaker 2: So I wouldn't say it's like gone away, but I 479 00:26:33,196 --> 00:26:35,996 Speaker 2: would like distinguish that kind of earning to give from 480 00:26:36,036 --> 00:26:38,396 Speaker 2: like the oh, let's actually try to like get into 481 00:26:38,436 --> 00:26:40,836 Speaker 2: the very tail end of the highest paying jobs, particularly 482 00:26:40,916 --> 00:26:42,476 Speaker 2: not through the thing you're going to do otherwise, but 483 00:26:42,916 --> 00:26:44,916 Speaker 2: do the thing that earns the most money as possible 484 00:26:45,076 --> 00:26:47,236 Speaker 2: and donate. And that seems like much much harder to 485 00:26:47,276 --> 00:26:51,156 Speaker 2: me to succeed at compared to like directing people to 486 00:26:51,276 --> 00:26:53,756 Speaker 2: direct work in fields that they might be really competent at. 487 00:26:55,116 --> 00:26:57,516 Speaker 1: For a brief period, Sam Beckman Freed made it look 488 00:26:57,596 --> 00:27:01,476 Speaker 1: very easy, And I'm wondering when FTX blew up, if 489 00:27:01,516 --> 00:27:05,116 Speaker 1: it reverberated around your organizations and people talk about it. 490 00:27:05,796 --> 00:27:10,836 Speaker 3: Yeah, there was definitely a lot of shock waves that 491 00:27:10,876 --> 00:27:17,276 Speaker 3: went through every organization affiliated with Effective Altruism in some way, 492 00:27:18,276 --> 00:27:22,156 Speaker 3: some more than others. It really did cause a lot 493 00:27:22,196 --> 00:27:26,596 Speaker 3: of people, including college organizers, to step back and just 494 00:27:26,716 --> 00:27:31,156 Speaker 3: feel like, did why did this happen? Basically in terms 495 00:27:31,156 --> 00:27:35,516 Speaker 3: of like how how responsible should the EA community as 496 00:27:35,556 --> 00:27:38,916 Speaker 3: a whole be for making this happen? As like one 497 00:27:38,956 --> 00:27:43,116 Speaker 3: guy who got affiliated with EA and is like now 498 00:27:43,156 --> 00:27:47,876 Speaker 3: in a position of huge monetary influence, felt empowered to 499 00:27:47,916 --> 00:27:50,596 Speaker 3: make a lot of like very very very poor decisions. 500 00:27:51,196 --> 00:27:52,916 Speaker 1: Gabe, do you have some thoughts on this? 501 00:27:53,396 --> 00:27:56,596 Speaker 2: Yeah, Like, certainly like that resonates a lot there if 502 00:27:56,596 --> 00:28:00,676 Speaker 2: you especially, like look online, So people in EA really 503 00:28:00,676 --> 00:28:02,756 Speaker 2: like the scout mindset thing as like a part of 504 00:28:02,756 --> 00:28:04,916 Speaker 2: that is considering where you might be wrong, and so 505 00:28:04,996 --> 00:28:07,396 Speaker 2: maybe affect Rautism more than a lot of other communities 506 00:28:07,436 --> 00:28:09,876 Speaker 2: really likes to criticize itself, try to think of ways 507 00:28:09,876 --> 00:28:12,356 Speaker 2: are wrong in order to improve our our like our 508 00:28:12,556 --> 00:28:15,756 Speaker 2: strategy and framework and whatever. So there certainly, like has 509 00:28:15,796 --> 00:28:17,756 Speaker 2: been a lot of online discourse about this, a lot 510 00:28:17,756 --> 00:28:20,916 Speaker 2: of people, especially like older people in the community discussing 511 00:28:20,956 --> 00:28:22,876 Speaker 2: like whoa is this our fault? Like all said, did 512 00:28:23,036 --> 00:28:24,996 Speaker 2: did we go wrong? Is this eas fold? Or is 513 00:28:25,116 --> 00:28:27,396 Speaker 2: Sam just a bad person and we like missed him 514 00:28:27,476 --> 00:28:31,916 Speaker 2: or something. Certainly, like like the online discussion within the 515 00:28:31,956 --> 00:28:34,676 Speaker 2: EA community seems to have been like even larger than 516 00:28:34,716 --> 00:28:37,676 Speaker 2: the media discussion of this. Like I don't know, maybe 517 00:28:37,836 --> 00:28:39,916 Speaker 2: the new cycle just moves fast and people move on 518 00:28:39,956 --> 00:28:42,876 Speaker 2: to new things, but like it feels like still they're 519 00:28:42,956 --> 00:28:45,196 Speaker 2: like every couple of weeks or something, the new community 520 00:28:45,236 --> 00:28:47,836 Speaker 2: posts about like hey, how could we have prevented the 521 00:28:47,876 --> 00:28:51,436 Speaker 2: FTX situation? But among like college students, it seems like 522 00:28:51,476 --> 00:28:53,796 Speaker 2: that's quite different. They're like some of some of our 523 00:28:53,916 --> 00:28:56,356 Speaker 2: like new EA intro fellows who are like doing the 524 00:28:56,356 --> 00:28:59,116 Speaker 2: fellowship in the fall when this happened, I was like, oh, 525 00:28:59,156 --> 00:29:01,196 Speaker 2: so you did you hear about the news about FTX 526 00:29:01,236 --> 00:29:03,236 Speaker 2: and SBF What do you think about that? And they're like, Oh, 527 00:29:03,276 --> 00:29:04,276 Speaker 2: who's Sam Bigmanfreed? 528 00:29:04,516 --> 00:29:07,196 Speaker 1: Have you heard anybody in these forums or anybody in 529 00:29:07,236 --> 00:29:11,116 Speaker 1: your groups try to justify Sam's behavior, saying that actually 530 00:29:11,156 --> 00:29:15,996 Speaker 1: this was he's Robin hood, that we don't mind him 531 00:29:16,036 --> 00:29:19,436 Speaker 1: having tried to take taken this risk with depositors' money 532 00:29:19,476 --> 00:29:21,116 Speaker 1: because the money was going to go to these other 533 00:29:21,196 --> 00:29:25,316 Speaker 1: things and it could have worked out. Don't blame him. 534 00:29:25,076 --> 00:29:28,356 Speaker 2: People in effective Elshism seem to want to always try 535 00:29:28,356 --> 00:29:30,556 Speaker 2: to consider both sides of any kind of situation and 536 00:29:30,596 --> 00:29:32,516 Speaker 2: try to like yep, as all said, like think about 537 00:29:32,556 --> 00:29:35,756 Speaker 2: a thing and then immediately think about the current arguments. Certainly, 538 00:29:35,796 --> 00:29:38,956 Speaker 2: when FTX first happened, there's I remember seeing some comments 539 00:29:38,996 --> 00:29:41,036 Speaker 2: about like, oh, maybe maybe this was because of X 540 00:29:41,116 --> 00:29:44,396 Speaker 2: reasons and why, or at least like we should be 541 00:29:44,476 --> 00:29:46,676 Speaker 2: like cutting Sam some slack because he must feel like 542 00:29:46,716 --> 00:29:50,396 Speaker 2: really shitty right now, which is probably true. I think generally, 543 00:29:50,436 --> 00:29:53,316 Speaker 2: now the sentiment has changed a lot, and everyone's like, Wow, 544 00:29:53,556 --> 00:29:56,116 Speaker 2: you're really messed up. This seems like very clearly bad. 545 00:29:58,076 --> 00:30:00,996 Speaker 1: This was hugely useful to me, more useful than you know, 546 00:30:01,516 --> 00:30:04,356 Speaker 1: And I really appreciate you giving me the time. Thanks 547 00:30:04,436 --> 00:30:04,796 Speaker 1: so much. 548 00:30:05,676 --> 00:30:07,676 Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you too, Thank you so much for chatting Michael. 549 00:30:07,756 --> 00:30:12,836 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, all right, bye bye. Al Shinn is a 550 00:30:12,876 --> 00:30:16,516 Speaker 1: senior at Harvard and Gabriel mccobe is a senior at Stanford. 551 00:30:18,156 --> 00:30:19,916 Speaker 1: Let's end today with a letter we got from a 552 00:30:19,916 --> 00:30:22,636 Speaker 1: listener about a little snippet of conversation I had in 553 00:30:22,676 --> 00:30:25,836 Speaker 1: the previous episode. I was chatting with Molly White, the 554 00:30:25,916 --> 00:30:29,476 Speaker 1: noted crypto critic. Molly got her start in public life 555 00:30:29,476 --> 00:30:32,276 Speaker 1: at the age of thirteen when she edited a Wikipedia 556 00:30:32,356 --> 00:30:36,156 Speaker 1: article about unicycles. At the very end of the episode, 557 00:30:36,476 --> 00:30:38,956 Speaker 1: we tucked in the little exchange that I had with Molly, 558 00:30:39,516 --> 00:30:42,436 Speaker 1: mainly because my producers thought it was funny. We call 559 00:30:42,476 --> 00:30:45,356 Speaker 1: this an easter egg. It ran after the episode's credits, 560 00:30:45,396 --> 00:30:47,196 Speaker 1: so probably a lot of you didn't even hear it. 561 00:30:49,356 --> 00:30:52,076 Speaker 1: What did you edit on the unicycle Wikipedia page? 562 00:30:52,916 --> 00:30:57,156 Speaker 4: I'm pretty sure that I added information about the existence 563 00:30:57,356 --> 00:31:00,756 Speaker 4: of other types of unicycles. You know, so there's like 564 00:31:00,876 --> 00:31:04,076 Speaker 4: the very standard unicycle, but there's also ones that like 565 00:31:04,476 --> 00:31:08,596 Speaker 4: arement for going off road, and there are ones that 566 00:31:08,636 --> 00:31:12,396 Speaker 4: have like really big wheels that let you go long distance. 567 00:31:12,876 --> 00:31:17,316 Speaker 1: You know, an off road unicycle is is is to 568 00:31:17,956 --> 00:31:24,036 Speaker 1: cycling what bitcoin is to money. It's sort of it's 569 00:31:24,076 --> 00:31:26,596 Speaker 1: sort of like a solution in search of the problem. 570 00:31:26,676 --> 00:31:32,796 Speaker 1: Absolutely well. Listener Chris Holme heard that, and she wrote 571 00:31:32,836 --> 00:31:37,196 Speaker 1: in her professional title is writer in chief at Chris 572 00:31:37,236 --> 00:31:41,676 Speaker 1: Holme Unicycles Limited. Chris writes, I think Michael might need 573 00:31:41,716 --> 00:31:44,996 Speaker 1: a bit of context on mountain unicycling. It is hardly 574 00:31:45,076 --> 00:31:48,156 Speaker 1: the Bitcoin of mountain biking. Even if he doesn't find 575 00:31:48,156 --> 00:31:51,076 Speaker 1: the sport interesting. I suspect he might find it intriguing 576 00:31:51,196 --> 00:31:53,676 Speaker 1: to find the reality of the sport so very different 577 00:31:53,996 --> 00:31:58,836 Speaker 1: from the perception. Well, Chris, I want to apologize, because 578 00:31:58,836 --> 00:32:02,316 Speaker 1: I never want to offend anybody. But actually, when I 579 00:32:02,356 --> 00:32:06,796 Speaker 1: said that, the response I got was even more disturbed 580 00:32:06,796 --> 00:32:09,716 Speaker 1: than yours was from bitcoiners who didn't want bitcoin to 581 00:32:09,756 --> 00:32:14,156 Speaker 1: be seen as off road unicycling. So I had got 582 00:32:14,156 --> 00:32:16,236 Speaker 1: it from both sides. I obviously should not have made 583 00:32:16,236 --> 00:32:22,276 Speaker 1: this connection. Obviously, like off road unicycling is dicycling with 584 00:32:22,476 --> 00:32:24,516 Speaker 1: something else is to something else, but not bitcoin is 585 00:32:24,516 --> 00:32:29,396 Speaker 1: to money, And one day, if I summon the nerve 586 00:32:29,956 --> 00:32:32,356 Speaker 1: I might get on an actual unicycle. I kind of 587 00:32:32,396 --> 00:32:34,876 Speaker 1: doubt I'm ever going to get to the mountain unicycling, 588 00:32:35,436 --> 00:32:38,036 Speaker 1: and I kind of doubt that I'm ever going to 589 00:32:38,076 --> 00:32:40,556 Speaker 1: have a reason to actually explore the reality of the sport. 590 00:32:41,556 --> 00:32:45,196 Speaker 1: So I apologize. I apologize for being so cavalier about 591 00:32:45,196 --> 00:32:48,916 Speaker 1: something that is obviously important to other people. If you 592 00:32:48,956 --> 00:32:51,956 Speaker 1: have a question, I'd love to hear it. You can 593 00:32:51,996 --> 00:32:54,436 Speaker 1: contact me with it by clicking on our show notes 594 00:32:54,636 --> 00:33:01,356 Speaker 1: or going to ATR podcast dot com. On Background is 595 00:33:01,396 --> 00:33:04,876 Speaker 1: hosted by me Michael Lewis, and produced by Catherine Girardeau 596 00:33:05,036 --> 00:33:09,596 Speaker 1: and Lydia gene Kott. Our editor is Julia Barton. Our 597 00:33:09,636 --> 00:33:14,516 Speaker 1: engineer is Sarah Bruguier. Thanks to our SVP of production, 598 00:33:14,796 --> 00:33:18,636 Speaker 1: Greta Cone, our show is recorded by Toper Ruth at 599 00:33:18,636 --> 00:33:22,996 Speaker 1: Berkeley Advanced Media Studios. Our music was composed by Matthias 600 00:33:23,036 --> 00:33:27,316 Speaker 1: Bossi and John Evans of stell Wagon Symphonet. My old 601 00:33:27,316 --> 00:33:31,396 Speaker 1: friend Nick Brittel composed our theme song. On Background is 602 00:33:31,436 --> 00:33:35,916 Speaker 1: a production of Pushkin Industries. To find more Pushkin podcasts, 603 00:33:36,476 --> 00:33:40,156 Speaker 1: listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you 604 00:33:40,196 --> 00:33:43,356 Speaker 1: listen to podcasts, and if you'd like to listen ad 605 00:33:43,356 --> 00:33:47,356 Speaker 1: free and learn about other exclusive offerings, don't forget to 606 00:33:47,396 --> 00:33:51,116 Speaker 1: sign up for a Pushkin Plus subscription at Pushkin dot Fm, 607 00:33:51,156 --> 00:34:00,636 Speaker 1: Backslash Plus or on our Apple show page. Al I'm 608 00:34:00,636 --> 00:34:04,236 Speaker 1: going to be at your graduation? Oh be cause you're 609 00:34:04,596 --> 00:34:06,796 Speaker 1: cause you're graduating with Quinn. Have you seen her around? 610 00:34:07,036 --> 00:34:09,596 Speaker 3: I have not used a career dance studio recent, which 611 00:34:09,596 --> 00:34:13,076 Speaker 3: is where I would most likely see Quinn. When Quinn 612 00:34:13,156 --> 00:34:15,796 Speaker 3: knew me in the first year arts program, I had 613 00:34:15,836 --> 00:34:19,756 Speaker 3: not started dancing. I started breakdancing in the fall after 614 00:34:20,596 --> 00:34:21,356 Speaker 3: the program. 615 00:34:21,436 --> 00:34:23,796 Speaker 1: Do you consider yourself an effective breakdancer? 616 00:34:27,756 --> 00:34:29,916 Speaker 3: I think this falls squarely in the realm of things 617 00:34:29,956 --> 00:34:33,036 Speaker 3: that I'm not optimizing in my life.