WEBVTT - TechSupport: The Two Sides of Biometric Data w/ Adam Clark Estes

0:00:14.520 --> 0:00:17.440
<v Speaker 1>Welcome to tech Stuff. I'm Oz Valoshin. Today is all

0:00:17.480 --> 0:00:21.279
<v Speaker 1>about biometric data and how it's increasingly become a part

0:00:21.320 --> 0:00:25.279
<v Speaker 1>of modern life. We unlock phones with our faces, send

0:00:25.360 --> 0:00:29.200
<v Speaker 1>DNA samples to learn about our ancestry, track our workouts,

0:00:29.440 --> 0:00:31.600
<v Speaker 1>and you can even pay for groceries now with the

0:00:31.600 --> 0:00:34.720
<v Speaker 1>palm of your hand. But as people get more and

0:00:34.760 --> 0:00:38.440
<v Speaker 1>more comfortable using their highly personal data to seamlessly and

0:00:38.479 --> 0:00:43.440
<v Speaker 1>efficiently move through life, questions arise, like what's being done

0:00:43.479 --> 0:00:46.640
<v Speaker 1>with all this information? And are the benefits to using

0:00:46.760 --> 0:00:50.960
<v Speaker 1>biometric technology worth the costs. Here to walk us through

0:00:51.000 --> 0:00:54.520
<v Speaker 1>all our questions is Adam clark Estes. He's a senior

0:00:54.560 --> 0:00:58.200
<v Speaker 1>technology correspondent at Vox. Adam, welcome to tech stuff.

0:00:58.440 --> 0:00:59.400
<v Speaker 2>Hey, thanks for having me.

0:00:59.480 --> 0:01:01.560
<v Speaker 1>Thank you so much becoming. I love your newsletter and

0:01:01.600 --> 0:01:03.520
<v Speaker 1>I was struck by a recent piece you wrote that

0:01:03.600 --> 0:01:07.119
<v Speaker 1>began with a visit to the doctor. Can you tell

0:01:07.120 --> 0:01:07.600
<v Speaker 1>the story?

0:01:07.959 --> 0:01:10.840
<v Speaker 2>Sure? So, my doctor is at NYU Lango and it's

0:01:10.880 --> 0:01:14.640
<v Speaker 2>a huge healthcare system in New York City, and I

0:01:14.720 --> 0:01:16.759
<v Speaker 2>walked in one day and there was a little Amazon

0:01:16.800 --> 0:01:20.360
<v Speaker 2>branded scanner next to the little kiosk where you check in.

0:01:20.920 --> 0:01:23.360
<v Speaker 2>The idea was that I would put my palm over

0:01:23.400 --> 0:01:25.840
<v Speaker 2>this sensor and it would scan it, and that's how

0:01:25.880 --> 0:01:28.319
<v Speaker 2>it would verify my identity. I didn't do that. There

0:01:28.360 --> 0:01:30.440
<v Speaker 2>was an option to opt out of it and go

0:01:30.480 --> 0:01:33.120
<v Speaker 2>and visit the desk clerk, which is what the doctor's

0:01:33.120 --> 0:01:34.960
<v Speaker 2>office doesn't want you to do because it takes more

0:01:35.319 --> 0:01:38.120
<v Speaker 2>time for them and for their staff to verify you,

0:01:38.560 --> 0:01:40.920
<v Speaker 2>and the tech based way of doing it is a

0:01:40.959 --> 0:01:43.400
<v Speaker 2>lot quicker. But it also just raised a lot of questions,

0:01:43.400 --> 0:01:45.119
<v Speaker 2>like I didn't know what I was giving up when

0:01:45.120 --> 0:01:47.319
<v Speaker 2>I gave my palm print to Amazon. I didn't know

0:01:47.319 --> 0:01:49.720
<v Speaker 2>if that would have anything to do with the ads

0:01:49.720 --> 0:01:51.840
<v Speaker 2>I saw on Amazon dot Com. And then I talked

0:01:51.840 --> 0:01:54.400
<v Speaker 2>to some privacy experts. I interviewed three or four people

0:01:54.440 --> 0:01:59.280
<v Speaker 2>for this story, and ultimately the message was that it's

0:01:59.320 --> 0:02:01.320
<v Speaker 2>really hard to say what is going to happen to

0:02:01.360 --> 0:02:05.240
<v Speaker 2>your data long term. Amazon has a lot of businesses,

0:02:05.400 --> 0:02:07.560
<v Speaker 2>They have a lot of data about you already, and

0:02:07.600 --> 0:02:10.560
<v Speaker 2>if they can add more, especially this biometric data, which

0:02:11.080 --> 0:02:14.959
<v Speaker 2>to be clear, gives proof that you were at a

0:02:15.040 --> 0:02:18.120
<v Speaker 2>place physically, and that's kind of hard to do otherwise

0:02:18.120 --> 0:02:20.560
<v Speaker 2>because even just like your phone pinging a cell tower,

0:02:20.600 --> 0:02:23.880
<v Speaker 2>doesn't prove that you were somewhere, but if your palm

0:02:23.919 --> 0:02:25.680
<v Speaker 2>was at a place that knows that you were at

0:02:25.680 --> 0:02:27.320
<v Speaker 2>a doctor's office, you can kind of figure out.

0:02:27.480 --> 0:02:29.079
<v Speaker 1>A digital DNA effectively.

0:02:29.440 --> 0:02:31.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, right, and then you know, I did talk to

0:02:31.639 --> 0:02:35.720
<v Speaker 2>Amazon quite a lot about this. They really tried hard

0:02:35.800 --> 0:02:39.600
<v Speaker 2>to make it clear to me that the data being

0:02:39.639 --> 0:02:44.519
<v Speaker 2>collected for the Amazon one biometric system was not shared

0:02:44.520 --> 0:02:47.960
<v Speaker 2>with other Amazon businesses. It's much less clear in the

0:02:48.000 --> 0:02:52.040
<v Speaker 2>privacy policy, and I did talk to lawyers who basically

0:02:52.120 --> 0:02:54.880
<v Speaker 2>argued that there's some legalise to work around here that

0:02:55.080 --> 0:02:58.400
<v Speaker 2>gives Amazon some wiggle room. But that said, I frankly

0:02:58.480 --> 0:03:00.520
<v Speaker 2>kind of believe the company that they're not doing anything

0:03:00.520 --> 0:03:02.600
<v Speaker 2>else with this data right now, but it's hard to

0:03:02.600 --> 0:03:04.320
<v Speaker 2>say what they'll do with it in the future.

0:03:04.639 --> 0:03:07.040
<v Speaker 1>Did you ask them any questions at the doc's office

0:03:07.080 --> 0:03:10.520
<v Speaker 1>about like, you know, obviously patients and medical settings are

0:03:10.880 --> 0:03:12.720
<v Speaker 1>reasonably quite concerned about their privacy.

0:03:13.040 --> 0:03:18.000
<v Speaker 2>I did. I talked to NYU lengthon and they assured

0:03:18.040 --> 0:03:20.880
<v Speaker 2>me that Amazon was not collecting any health data about you.

0:03:20.880 --> 0:03:23.160
<v Speaker 2>You know, the sort of interaction you'd have with your

0:03:23.200 --> 0:03:26.600
<v Speaker 2>doctor in the doctor's office is covered by hippolaws. Which

0:03:26.600 --> 0:03:30.040
<v Speaker 2>are actually quite narrow and specific to your health data.

0:03:30.520 --> 0:03:32.640
<v Speaker 2>But everything else, sort of like you're being at the

0:03:32.639 --> 0:03:36.560
<v Speaker 2>doctor's office, is not protected by HIPPA in any case.

0:03:36.800 --> 0:03:41.480
<v Speaker 2>Nyu langone Health actually had palm scanners before Amazon. They

0:03:41.520 --> 0:03:45.680
<v Speaker 2>never worked, but there's just something much more foreboding about

0:03:46.120 --> 0:03:49.480
<v Speaker 2>seeing that Amazon logo greet you when you're at the

0:03:49.520 --> 0:03:52.360
<v Speaker 2>doctor's office. So I ended up at the end of

0:03:52.360 --> 0:03:55.480
<v Speaker 2>this reporting experience back at the doctor's office, and I

0:03:55.680 --> 0:03:57.720
<v Speaker 2>still did not put my palm on the scanner.

0:03:57.960 --> 0:04:00.680
<v Speaker 1>I remember when they sort of switched inn apes from

0:04:01.080 --> 0:04:05.840
<v Speaker 1>metal detectors to like full body visualization scanners. There was

0:04:05.880 --> 0:04:09.720
<v Speaker 1>a time when I resisted and asked for the pat down,

0:04:10.200 --> 0:04:13.360
<v Speaker 1>But after about a year of extremely unpleasant experiences, I

0:04:13.440 --> 0:04:15.800
<v Speaker 1>was just like, you know what, let me just, you know,

0:04:15.880 --> 0:04:18.719
<v Speaker 1>go through the machine that is now technically optional but

0:04:19.080 --> 0:04:23.400
<v Speaker 1>practically mandatory. And when you see something as a technology

0:04:23.400 --> 0:04:26.840
<v Speaker 1>correspondent like that in a doctor's office, what's your sense

0:04:26.880 --> 0:04:28.160
<v Speaker 1>of its kind of inevitability.

0:04:28.839 --> 0:04:33.280
<v Speaker 2>Inevitability is a great word, I think, especially with biometrics,

0:04:33.320 --> 0:04:37.840
<v Speaker 2>because for the companies that are pushing this technology to us,

0:04:37.880 --> 0:04:40.440
<v Speaker 2>there are so many upsides. There are so many upsides

0:04:40.760 --> 0:04:46.000
<v Speaker 2>for Amazon to sell this service to businesses. So Amazon

0:04:46.040 --> 0:04:47.760
<v Speaker 2>One is the name of the technology, and it's a

0:04:47.760 --> 0:04:53.160
<v Speaker 2>new business within Amazon's Aws business. So you know, it's

0:04:53.160 --> 0:04:55.680
<v Speaker 2>like a Russian nesting dollar of businesses. And Amazon says

0:04:55.680 --> 0:04:58.320
<v Speaker 2>they're all separate, but still you're going to start seeing

0:04:58.360 --> 0:05:01.280
<v Speaker 2>these Amazon scanners up. They're already in Whole Foods with

0:05:01.400 --> 0:05:04.400
<v Speaker 2>Amazon owns. They're popping up in doctors' offices like at

0:05:04.520 --> 0:05:08.000
<v Speaker 2>NYU Lango and health, and you'll see them at stadiums

0:05:08.320 --> 0:05:12.440
<v Speaker 2>and it will be annoying enough for people to work

0:05:12.480 --> 0:05:14.760
<v Speaker 2>around it that I think a lot of people will

0:05:14.800 --> 0:05:17.760
<v Speaker 2>just figure that whatever hang ups they had about their

0:05:17.800 --> 0:05:21.800
<v Speaker 2>their privacy, it's easier to just go ahead and comply

0:05:22.440 --> 0:05:27.280
<v Speaker 2>and have their palm scanned and frankly, we'll save them

0:05:27.320 --> 0:05:29.440
<v Speaker 2>some time. But makes me feel uneasy.

0:05:30.120 --> 0:05:32.680
<v Speaker 1>And what's their widest strategy why they want to take

0:05:32.680 --> 0:05:35.719
<v Speaker 1>ownership of this biometric scanning technology.

0:05:36.440 --> 0:05:38.880
<v Speaker 2>There's a bit of a race, I think to come

0:05:38.960 --> 0:05:43.760
<v Speaker 2>up with a good way to verify our identities in

0:05:43.800 --> 0:05:46.640
<v Speaker 2>a digital world. The New Yorker cartoon of a dog

0:05:46.839 --> 0:05:49.240
<v Speaker 2>looking at a computer and the caption is on the internet.

0:05:49.240 --> 0:05:51.320
<v Speaker 2>Nobody knows you're a dog I love that one. It's

0:05:51.440 --> 0:05:55.760
<v Speaker 2>very easy to mimic somebody else online and increasingly difficult

0:05:55.839 --> 0:05:58.320
<v Speaker 2>to prove that you are who you are, even in

0:05:58.320 --> 0:06:03.080
<v Speaker 2>the United States. Kind of our gold standard identification method

0:06:03.160 --> 0:06:06.080
<v Speaker 2>is our Social Security number, which is not very secure

0:06:06.080 --> 0:06:08.920
<v Speaker 2>at all. It's just a string of numbers. So there

0:06:08.920 --> 0:06:11.240
<v Speaker 2>are a lot of tech companies who want to get

0:06:11.279 --> 0:06:14.720
<v Speaker 2>at this problem. Amazon solution, i think, is this pomp print,

0:06:14.839 --> 0:06:19.520
<v Speaker 2>because it is a way of creating a unique identifier

0:06:19.560 --> 0:06:21.720
<v Speaker 2>for you. So your palm is basically the key, and

0:06:22.080 --> 0:06:23.880
<v Speaker 2>what the scanner does is kind of create a lock

0:06:23.960 --> 0:06:26.080
<v Speaker 2>that it can fit into so that the next time

0:06:26.120 --> 0:06:29.520
<v Speaker 2>you scan your palm, if the data from that hand

0:06:29.760 --> 0:06:32.839
<v Speaker 2>matches that kind of digital lock, it confirms that you

0:06:32.880 --> 0:06:35.320
<v Speaker 2>are who you are and you get into wherever you're going.

0:06:35.720 --> 0:06:38.480
<v Speaker 1>Why did you find this more concerning or more worthy

0:06:38.480 --> 0:06:41.159
<v Speaker 1>of writing about than the thing which we're all accustomed to,

0:06:41.160 --> 0:06:43.520
<v Speaker 1>which is opening our iPhones with our faces, Like, what's

0:06:43.520 --> 0:06:45.760
<v Speaker 1>the difference between Apple are doing what Amazon are doing

0:06:45.760 --> 0:06:46.400
<v Speaker 1>in this respect?

0:06:47.000 --> 0:06:49.000
<v Speaker 2>I'm a fan of face ID and it have been

0:06:49.000 --> 0:06:51.320
<v Speaker 2>a fan of touch ID because I know that the

0:06:51.600 --> 0:06:56.039
<v Speaker 2>processing that happens is happening on my device that's Apple's

0:06:56.040 --> 0:06:58.120
<v Speaker 2>big commitment to privacy is that it's not setting that

0:06:58.200 --> 0:07:01.440
<v Speaker 2>data up to the cloud, where as Amazon One is

0:07:01.839 --> 0:07:04.839
<v Speaker 2>literally run by Amazon's cloud computing business, so all this

0:07:04.920 --> 0:07:07.240
<v Speaker 2>data is kind of has the chance to get out there.

0:07:07.240 --> 0:07:11.200
<v Speaker 2>And the trouble with biometric data is that it's pretty permanent.

0:07:11.560 --> 0:07:13.640
<v Speaker 2>I can't go out and get a new hand if

0:07:13.680 --> 0:07:17.200
<v Speaker 2>the details of my pomprint get out there, I can't.

0:07:17.320 --> 0:07:18.760
<v Speaker 2>It's not like changing a password.

0:07:19.120 --> 0:07:22.520
<v Speaker 1>I mean, when you think about the wider Amazon ecosystem,

0:07:22.560 --> 0:07:28.840
<v Speaker 1>which is shopping video now verify identity in healthcare setting,

0:07:29.000 --> 0:07:31.480
<v Speaker 1>I mean, what's the night meassonaryoo for you here?

0:07:32.280 --> 0:07:35.360
<v Speaker 2>The nightmare scenario for me online at any time is

0:07:35.400 --> 0:07:39.920
<v Speaker 2>identity theft. There's so much of my information online if

0:07:40.000 --> 0:07:44.480
<v Speaker 2>someone could pretend they were me and really do anything

0:07:44.480 --> 0:07:46.240
<v Speaker 2>that I wouldn't want to do, like open a bank

0:07:46.240 --> 0:07:50.679
<v Speaker 2>account or buy a new car. And when it comes

0:07:50.720 --> 0:07:53.600
<v Speaker 2>to healthcare, it's the most private data I have, and

0:07:54.280 --> 0:07:56.680
<v Speaker 2>I think that details about my health now are in

0:07:56.720 --> 0:07:58.400
<v Speaker 2>the future that could end up in the wrong hands,

0:07:58.480 --> 0:08:01.400
<v Speaker 2>or even in the right hands, could have a bad

0:08:01.440 --> 0:08:03.880
<v Speaker 2>outcome for me. I don't necessarily want my health insurance

0:08:03.880 --> 0:08:07.080
<v Speaker 2>company to know everything that's happening with me all the time.

0:08:07.080 --> 0:08:10.200
<v Speaker 2>I don't necessarily want my employer to know what's happening.

0:08:10.680 --> 0:08:13.640
<v Speaker 2>But at the same time, a lot of what has

0:08:13.720 --> 0:08:20.080
<v Speaker 2>always kind of pushed me towards privacy online is got

0:08:20.120 --> 0:08:24.400
<v Speaker 2>feeling that technology is increasingly encroaching upon our privacy and

0:08:24.480 --> 0:08:28.120
<v Speaker 2>kind of changing the definition of what is publicly available information.

0:08:28.440 --> 0:08:32.440
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you also had an experience recently elsewhere in the

0:08:32.480 --> 0:08:37.120
<v Speaker 1>Amazon ecosystem that had to do with health and being

0:08:37.160 --> 0:08:39.000
<v Speaker 1>recommended prescription drugs.

0:08:39.360 --> 0:08:42.160
<v Speaker 2>The experience I had with prescription drugs and Amazon is

0:08:42.200 --> 0:08:47.199
<v Speaker 2>a great example of something that just felt wrong and uncomfortable.

0:08:47.280 --> 0:08:49.280
<v Speaker 2>It was a feeling I didn't like having. I ordered

0:08:49.320 --> 0:08:54.800
<v Speaker 2>groceries through Amazon Fresh and went to check out, and

0:08:54.840 --> 0:08:57.840
<v Speaker 2>at the bottom it was recommending me a list of

0:08:57.880 --> 0:09:02.439
<v Speaker 2>prescription drugs. And I had no idea how Amazon would

0:09:03.000 --> 0:09:05.600
<v Speaker 2>know what kinds of prescription drugs I might be interested in,

0:09:05.679 --> 0:09:07.439
<v Speaker 2>or it might apply to me, or even why I

0:09:07.520 --> 0:09:10.120
<v Speaker 2>might be prompted at that specific moment to buy them

0:09:10.160 --> 0:09:13.400
<v Speaker 2>from Amazon. I talked to Amazon again about that, and

0:09:13.920 --> 0:09:16.839
<v Speaker 2>Amazon told me that the system was working as it should.

0:09:16.960 --> 0:09:21.600
<v Speaker 2>It had looked at what I purchased and based on

0:09:21.960 --> 0:09:27.079
<v Speaker 2>what other Amazon customers bought from Amazon had recommended something

0:09:27.080 --> 0:09:30.520
<v Speaker 2>I thought I would like. In this case, I'll be specific.

0:09:30.720 --> 0:09:33.840
<v Speaker 2>I got the reduced fat version of my coffee creamer,

0:09:34.600 --> 0:09:37.640
<v Speaker 2>and so it recommended a statin to me to lower

0:09:37.640 --> 0:09:39.880
<v Speaker 2>my cholesterol. So I could see kind of on the

0:09:39.880 --> 0:09:41.600
<v Speaker 2>back end how that would happen, but it's still just

0:09:41.600 --> 0:09:43.880
<v Speaker 2>sort of an uncanny experience.

0:09:44.280 --> 0:09:46.760
<v Speaker 1>This is like if you go to the Woolgreens, you know,

0:09:46.760 --> 0:09:50.080
<v Speaker 1>around the corner, and you're in the you're reaching into

0:09:50.120 --> 0:09:53.240
<v Speaker 1>the refrigerator to get a low fat yoga and the

0:09:53.240 --> 0:09:57.160
<v Speaker 1>pharmacist runs out and tries to use them statins, right,

0:09:57.240 --> 0:09:59.360
<v Speaker 1>I mean, it's like that would be pretty weird in

0:09:59.400 --> 0:09:59.880
<v Speaker 1>real life.

0:10:00.320 --> 0:10:01.959
<v Speaker 2>It would be, but now that you put it like that,

0:10:01.960 --> 0:10:05.080
<v Speaker 2>that's sort of exactly what happened. Amazon has a newer

0:10:05.080 --> 0:10:07.480
<v Speaker 2>pharmacy business that it wants people to sign up for,

0:10:07.720 --> 0:10:10.400
<v Speaker 2>and if I'm reminded that I might want to take

0:10:10.440 --> 0:10:13.920
<v Speaker 2>a statin, then maybe I would sign up and be like, oh, yeah,

0:10:13.920 --> 0:10:16.559
<v Speaker 2>it would be more convenient to get my prescriptions through Amazon.

0:10:16.600 --> 0:10:16.720
<v Speaker 3>Two.

0:10:17.400 --> 0:10:20.320
<v Speaker 2>So I think it's marketing and a lot of these

0:10:20.360 --> 0:10:23.440
<v Speaker 2>recommendations are pushing you towards other Amazon. Businesses to spend

0:10:23.480 --> 0:10:26.160
<v Speaker 2>more time and money on Amazon, and that's why Amazon

0:10:26.240 --> 0:10:29.280
<v Speaker 2>has a huge, multi billion dollar advertising business.

0:10:29.600 --> 0:10:31.680
<v Speaker 1>What does all of this tell us about Amazon's wider

0:10:31.720 --> 0:10:32.840
<v Speaker 1>ambitions in healthcare?

0:10:33.320 --> 0:10:36.200
<v Speaker 2>We've known for some time that Amazon wants to be

0:10:36.240 --> 0:10:41.600
<v Speaker 2>a healthcare company, and it's funny ahead of this experiment

0:10:41.840 --> 0:10:44.160
<v Speaker 2>years ago, I actually I wrote a whole story about

0:10:44.400 --> 0:10:47.960
<v Speaker 2>whether Amazon wants to have an Amazon Prime for healthcare,

0:10:48.120 --> 0:10:50.320
<v Speaker 2>and then kind of like what I had been reporting

0:10:50.320 --> 0:10:53.280
<v Speaker 2>on in the story ended up happening. Amazon bought a

0:10:53.320 --> 0:10:56.880
<v Speaker 2>healthcare company. They bought Amazon One. Amazon launched and then

0:10:56.920 --> 0:11:02.359
<v Speaker 2>expanded its pharmacy business, and Amazon is getting into telehealth

0:11:02.440 --> 0:11:05.760
<v Speaker 2>as well through the company that have bought One Medical.

0:11:06.600 --> 0:11:09.280
<v Speaker 2>It's very clear to me that Amazon wants to be

0:11:09.320 --> 0:11:11.880
<v Speaker 2>in the healthcare business. I think because it's a good

0:11:11.920 --> 0:11:15.280
<v Speaker 2>business to be in. Just like everybody needs groceries, everybody

0:11:15.640 --> 0:11:18.320
<v Speaker 2>needs healthcare, and there's a lot of money to be made.

0:11:18.840 --> 0:11:21.719
<v Speaker 2>And I also in this context, I have to think

0:11:21.720 --> 0:11:25.040
<v Speaker 2>about how much Amazon knows about us from my own

0:11:25.080 --> 0:11:29.800
<v Speaker 2>experience where recommended a statin to me. Amazon knows the

0:11:29.840 --> 0:11:33.000
<v Speaker 2>groceries that I'm buying, the books that I'm reading, the

0:11:33.000 --> 0:11:36.040
<v Speaker 2>clothes that I'm wearing a lot of times. So all

0:11:36.040 --> 0:11:39.839
<v Speaker 2>that data can be leveraged into a business that can

0:11:39.880 --> 0:11:42.760
<v Speaker 2>help Amazon grow and make more money. So why wouldn't

0:11:42.760 --> 0:11:43.160
<v Speaker 2>they want.

0:11:43.000 --> 0:11:44.959
<v Speaker 3>To be in the healthcare business?

0:11:50.640 --> 0:11:54.320
<v Speaker 1>After the break, how much health trecking is too much?

0:11:54.360 --> 0:11:54.920
<v Speaker 1>Health tracking?

0:11:55.400 --> 0:12:05.480
<v Speaker 3>Stay with us.

0:12:08.360 --> 0:12:10.959
<v Speaker 1>So there's this interesting pushball to your point about like

0:12:11.520 --> 0:12:15.440
<v Speaker 1>your palm print, creating a new locke when you're quite

0:12:15.480 --> 0:12:17.640
<v Speaker 1>happy just to go and checking with a receptionists, like

0:12:17.679 --> 0:12:19.839
<v Speaker 1>that's not something you really want. On the other hand,

0:12:20.520 --> 0:12:25.520
<v Speaker 1>wearables are a kind of voluntary self conversion into data

0:12:25.840 --> 0:12:28.960
<v Speaker 1>in order to optimize, and that's something you've written about

0:12:28.960 --> 0:12:32.080
<v Speaker 1>a fair bit as well. And then recently you decided

0:12:32.120 --> 0:12:36.640
<v Speaker 1>to write a story about your experience of wearing basically

0:12:36.679 --> 0:12:39.120
<v Speaker 1>every wearable that you could feel on your body, including

0:12:39.200 --> 0:12:42.880
<v Speaker 1>glucose monitors, watches, rings. Tell us a bit about that

0:12:42.920 --> 0:12:46.400
<v Speaker 1>story and what the experience of all of that data was.

0:12:46.960 --> 0:12:49.559
<v Speaker 2>It all started at the beginning of this year at CES,

0:12:49.679 --> 0:12:52.480
<v Speaker 2>which is the world's largest electronics show in Las Vegas.

0:12:52.760 --> 0:12:55.319
<v Speaker 2>And I've been to CS many times as a technology journalist,

0:12:55.440 --> 0:12:59.600
<v Speaker 2>and usually it's a lot of TVs and some goofy robots,

0:12:59.720 --> 0:13:02.720
<v Speaker 2>but I'm always looking for innovation, for new things, for

0:13:03.120 --> 0:13:06.160
<v Speaker 2>something I hadn't seen before, And what I saw at

0:13:06.160 --> 0:13:10.400
<v Speaker 2>CES this year was a continuous glucose monitor for people

0:13:10.480 --> 0:13:13.880
<v Speaker 2>who don't have diabetes. These are the little sensors that

0:13:14.040 --> 0:13:16.880
<v Speaker 2>you might see on the backs of people's arms. Historically

0:13:16.880 --> 0:13:20.319
<v Speaker 2>those have been to help people with diabetes manage their illness,

0:13:20.400 --> 0:13:22.959
<v Speaker 2>but now a growing number of companies want to market

0:13:23.000 --> 0:13:25.320
<v Speaker 2>them over the counter to people who are interested in

0:13:25.320 --> 0:13:28.920
<v Speaker 2>fitness tracking. And what you're tracking is the glucose in

0:13:28.920 --> 0:13:31.520
<v Speaker 2>your bloodstream. So I talked to a company there that

0:13:31.600 --> 0:13:34.079
<v Speaker 2>was doing it, and then suddenly I started noticing all

0:13:34.120 --> 0:13:38.160
<v Speaker 2>these other interesting health tracking products things I hadn't seen before.

0:13:38.200 --> 0:13:41.079
<v Speaker 2>There are lots of companies selling smart rings, which have

0:13:41.200 --> 0:13:44.080
<v Speaker 2>been around but are kind of newly popular. I saw

0:13:44.360 --> 0:13:49.680
<v Speaker 2>and met with a company that actually has headphones that

0:13:49.720 --> 0:13:50.920
<v Speaker 2>can track your brain waves.

0:13:51.280 --> 0:13:51.600
<v Speaker 3>Wow.

0:13:51.760 --> 0:13:54.760
<v Speaker 2>It's a company called Neuroble, and they've figured out a

0:13:54.760 --> 0:13:57.360
<v Speaker 2>way to take over the year. Headphones the ones that

0:13:57.440 --> 0:13:59.600
<v Speaker 2>kind of cup around your ears, and they have electrodes

0:13:59.600 --> 0:14:02.560
<v Speaker 2>embedded in them and it can pick up on the

0:14:03.160 --> 0:14:06.760
<v Speaker 2>electricity that your brain produces. They have a lot of

0:14:06.840 --> 0:14:09.480
<v Speaker 2>ambition for this technology. But right now, the headphones that

0:14:09.520 --> 0:14:13.080
<v Speaker 2>they're selling track your attention basically, like there's a you

0:14:13.080 --> 0:14:15.920
<v Speaker 2>can kind of imagine a meter showing you how much

0:14:15.960 --> 0:14:19.120
<v Speaker 2>you're paying attention. And the more I got distracted by

0:14:19.160 --> 0:14:21.560
<v Speaker 2>the meter, the more my attention went down because I

0:14:21.600 --> 0:14:23.640
<v Speaker 2>wasn't paying attention to the thing I was supposed to

0:14:23.640 --> 0:14:26.840
<v Speaker 2>be paying attention to. So I think that actually kind

0:14:26.880 --> 0:14:28.360
<v Speaker 2>of put me over the edge and wanting to do

0:14:28.400 --> 0:14:30.560
<v Speaker 2>this story, like what can I track and what's useful

0:14:31.120 --> 0:14:33.800
<v Speaker 2>because this is a health tracking is a huge and

0:14:33.840 --> 0:14:36.000
<v Speaker 2>growing market and a lot of people are spending a

0:14:36.000 --> 0:14:38.240
<v Speaker 2>lot of money to try to make themselves healthier with

0:14:38.280 --> 0:14:39.320
<v Speaker 2>the help of tech.

0:14:40.080 --> 0:14:43.280
<v Speaker 1>So you were wearables for many months, and lots of them.

0:14:43.560 --> 0:14:46.000
<v Speaker 1>Can you list the wearables that you tried and what

0:14:46.040 --> 0:14:47.400
<v Speaker 1>they were kind of marketed to do?

0:14:48.200 --> 0:14:51.720
<v Speaker 2>I'll do my best. There were probably two dozen things

0:14:51.760 --> 0:14:54.760
<v Speaker 2>that I tried. The Apple Watch was something I already had.

0:14:55.200 --> 0:14:59.320
<v Speaker 2>The woopband was something I hadn't tried before, but I

0:14:59.360 --> 0:15:00.880
<v Speaker 2>see a lot of people wearing it and they really

0:15:00.920 --> 0:15:04.880
<v Speaker 2>like it. I wore in ordering all the time, but

0:15:04.920 --> 0:15:08.280
<v Speaker 2>I really liked it for sleep. Other smart rings I tried,

0:15:08.520 --> 0:15:13.480
<v Speaker 2>there's one called the Superhuman ring, one called the Lunar Ring.

0:15:14.320 --> 0:15:18.240
<v Speaker 2>I wore headphones that read my brain waves, and I

0:15:18.320 --> 0:15:23.480
<v Speaker 2>wore several different cgms. The companies that make the cgms

0:15:23.480 --> 0:15:28.480
<v Speaker 2>the sensors themselves are Abbot Pharmaceuticals and dex Calm, and

0:15:28.480 --> 0:15:31.160
<v Speaker 2>then the companies that make the software. Abbot has its

0:15:31.160 --> 0:15:35.600
<v Speaker 2>own called Lingo, there's a company called Levels and Aura

0:15:35.960 --> 0:15:39.600
<v Speaker 2>also recently started doing glucose tracking. So I tried all those,

0:15:39.640 --> 0:15:42.520
<v Speaker 2>and then there were other devices that were in the mix,

0:15:42.640 --> 0:15:45.360
<v Speaker 2>like Withvings has a number of health tech tools that

0:15:45.400 --> 0:15:49.680
<v Speaker 2>I tried. The BPM Vision Plus is a fancy blood

0:15:49.680 --> 0:15:52.480
<v Speaker 2>pressure cuff. They have a body scanner that I think

0:15:52.600 --> 0:15:56.560
<v Speaker 2>is just called the body scan and I even tried

0:15:56.600 --> 0:15:59.680
<v Speaker 2>glasses that also worked as hearing aids. They didn't track

0:15:59.720 --> 0:16:01.560
<v Speaker 2>my health per se, but they were kind of they're

0:16:01.560 --> 0:16:02.040
<v Speaker 2>in the mix.

0:16:02.640 --> 0:16:04.680
<v Speaker 1>Who are these companies marketing to? I mean, who are

0:16:04.680 --> 0:16:05.400
<v Speaker 1>these products FORU?

0:16:05.960 --> 0:16:10.120
<v Speaker 2>I think they are basically two groups of people that

0:16:10.320 --> 0:16:16.680
<v Speaker 2>these wearable companies are trying to appeal to. One is

0:16:16.720 --> 0:16:19.840
<v Speaker 2>the athlete. A lot of these wearable companies started out

0:16:19.880 --> 0:16:25.000
<v Speaker 2>as a kind of really hardcore fitness tracking, like the woopband.

0:16:25.480 --> 0:16:28.800
<v Speaker 2>I think is particularly tuned towards people who like really

0:16:28.840 --> 0:16:34.040
<v Speaker 2>want to optimize their their body's performance. The Superhuman Ring

0:16:34.280 --> 0:16:37.680
<v Speaker 2>is another one that is really geared towards athletes, and

0:16:37.720 --> 0:16:40.080
<v Speaker 2>the other group of is just everybody else who's just

0:16:40.120 --> 0:16:42.760
<v Speaker 2>trying to gain some insight and be a little bit healthier.

0:16:42.760 --> 0:16:45.600
<v Speaker 2>Maybe they want to feel better, have more energy, maybe

0:16:45.600 --> 0:16:48.200
<v Speaker 2>they want to to sleep better, have more energy. Having

0:16:48.240 --> 0:16:50.800
<v Speaker 2>more energy is a pretty common thing people want. But

0:16:51.440 --> 0:16:54.720
<v Speaker 2>in general, I don't think that any of these devices

0:16:54.800 --> 0:17:00.880
<v Speaker 2>or services really promise anything other than inside and information.

0:17:01.440 --> 0:17:04.240
<v Speaker 1>What did you find useful about the experiment for yourself

0:17:04.280 --> 0:17:05.520
<v Speaker 1>and what was less helpful?

0:17:06.080 --> 0:17:08.720
<v Speaker 2>It was at times awful to be in that experiment.

0:17:09.359 --> 0:17:11.639
<v Speaker 2>It was self imposed. I knew that I was getting

0:17:11.640 --> 0:17:14.359
<v Speaker 2>myself into something that was probably going to end up

0:17:14.359 --> 0:17:16.919
<v Speaker 2>being unpleasant, and it was also something that the average

0:17:16.920 --> 0:17:21.120
<v Speaker 2>person should never try. I think that when I maxed out,

0:17:21.160 --> 0:17:23.840
<v Speaker 2>I would be wearing the headphones, be wearing two or

0:17:23.880 --> 0:17:27.840
<v Speaker 2>three smart rings, wristbands on each risk and continuous glucose

0:17:27.880 --> 0:17:30.720
<v Speaker 2>monitor as well. At the same time, there are other

0:17:30.760 --> 0:17:33.080
<v Speaker 2>things that I couldn't really wear that I was still

0:17:33.520 --> 0:17:36.760
<v Speaker 2>trying out, Like I tried a scale that scanned my body.

0:17:36.800 --> 0:17:41.439
<v Speaker 2>I tried a service that promised to give me actionable

0:17:41.440 --> 0:17:45.720
<v Speaker 2>insights on my gut microbiome, and I did learn a

0:17:45.760 --> 0:17:50.880
<v Speaker 2>lot about my health. I think the problem is that

0:17:51.000 --> 0:17:55.440
<v Speaker 2>the way all these devices work is pretty similar. They

0:17:55.480 --> 0:17:58.160
<v Speaker 2>have sensors that can pick up on things like your

0:17:58.640 --> 0:18:01.840
<v Speaker 2>body temperature, but mostly they pick up on your heart

0:18:01.880 --> 0:18:05.400
<v Speaker 2>rate and something called heart rate variability. As you may

0:18:05.400 --> 0:18:07.440
<v Speaker 2>have guessed, heart rate variability is how much your heart

0:18:07.520 --> 0:18:11.080
<v Speaker 2>rate varies at any given time. And I like that.

0:18:11.320 --> 0:18:14.240
<v Speaker 2>I just didn't know how much to count on how

0:18:14.240 --> 0:18:17.840
<v Speaker 2>the algorithms were kind of analyzing what I was doing.

0:18:18.200 --> 0:18:20.399
<v Speaker 2>And the thing is every device was a little bit different.

0:18:20.480 --> 0:18:23.040
<v Speaker 2>There were smart rings that told me I was super fit,

0:18:23.400 --> 0:18:25.280
<v Speaker 2>and there were smart rings that told me that I

0:18:25.320 --> 0:18:27.680
<v Speaker 2>had work to do, so they're all tuned a little

0:18:27.680 --> 0:18:30.879
<v Speaker 2>bit differently. But overall, I found that the thing I

0:18:30.920 --> 0:18:35.880
<v Speaker 2>wanted most was a way to check in with myself

0:18:36.000 --> 0:18:39.560
<v Speaker 2>and know if I was being active enough. And the

0:18:39.640 --> 0:18:41.960
<v Speaker 2>other thing and I didn't really expect this to be

0:18:42.160 --> 0:18:46.359
<v Speaker 2>such a big factor going into the test was I

0:18:46.400 --> 0:18:49.000
<v Speaker 2>really got into the sleep tracking side of it. It's

0:18:49.000 --> 0:18:52.359
<v Speaker 2>something I hadn't tried before, but I still wear the

0:18:52.560 --> 0:18:55.800
<v Speaker 2>or ring when I sleep, if only to check the

0:18:55.840 --> 0:18:58.479
<v Speaker 2>score when I wake up, And I realized it sounds

0:18:58.720 --> 0:19:00.840
<v Speaker 2>silly to think that you need to check a score

0:19:00.880 --> 0:19:02.880
<v Speaker 2>to see how well you slept. But I have an

0:19:02.880 --> 0:19:07.040
<v Speaker 2>eighteen month old. I don't sleep super great. But to

0:19:07.040 --> 0:19:10.000
<v Speaker 2>have an extra little bit of data about what I'm

0:19:10.000 --> 0:19:12.359
<v Speaker 2>doing when I can't track it at all, I thought

0:19:12.440 --> 0:19:15.360
<v Speaker 2>was really helpful. And I am sleeping better, I'm going

0:19:15.400 --> 0:19:18.560
<v Speaker 2>to bed earlier. I find myself listening to the software

0:19:18.680 --> 0:19:21.399
<v Speaker 2>telling me what to do and feeling better as a result.

0:19:21.440 --> 0:19:24.399
<v Speaker 2>And I think that if the goal for this was anything,

0:19:24.440 --> 0:19:25.920
<v Speaker 2>it was to feel a little bit better and more

0:19:25.920 --> 0:19:28.840
<v Speaker 2>confident about my health. And although it was a bumpy

0:19:28.920 --> 0:19:30.359
<v Speaker 2>road the last six months, I think I got to

0:19:30.440 --> 0:19:30.960
<v Speaker 2>a good place.

0:19:31.640 --> 0:19:34.360
<v Speaker 1>Two kind of bigger zoom out questions. One is we're

0:19:34.359 --> 0:19:38.399
<v Speaker 1>living in this sort of Maha time. Make America healthy again.

0:19:38.640 --> 0:19:42.560
<v Speaker 1>And I think the one app which is truly like

0:19:42.640 --> 0:19:46.560
<v Speaker 1>capture people's imagination this year is Yuka Right. You can

0:19:46.640 --> 0:19:50.600
<v Speaker 1>scan products in the supermarket, in the grocery store and

0:19:50.880 --> 0:19:53.360
<v Speaker 1>it will tell you the ingredients and how healthy the ingredients.

0:19:53.359 --> 0:19:56.240
<v Speaker 1>So I was a French app and people are going

0:19:56.240 --> 0:19:58.680
<v Speaker 1>crazy for it, and I think huge corporations like Into

0:19:58.760 --> 0:20:02.800
<v Speaker 1>the Amazon changing the formulas and their products in response

0:20:02.880 --> 0:20:06.479
<v Speaker 1>to consumer demand based around this app. It's sort of

0:20:06.520 --> 0:20:09.800
<v Speaker 1>this idea that the best way to be in control

0:20:09.840 --> 0:20:13.560
<v Speaker 1>of your health is to have more knowledge and to

0:20:13.640 --> 0:20:16.919
<v Speaker 1>basically be your own doctor in some respects. Right, So

0:20:17.520 --> 0:20:21.200
<v Speaker 1>is there a wide a cultural, socio political trend into

0:20:21.240 --> 0:20:23.000
<v Speaker 1>which all of this is fitting.

0:20:23.640 --> 0:20:26.640
<v Speaker 2>There's absolutely a bigger picture here. And I didn't even

0:20:26.960 --> 0:20:29.240
<v Speaker 2>know that I was going to be getting into to

0:20:29.320 --> 0:20:32.439
<v Speaker 2>the Mahab movement in this experiment until one of the

0:20:32.440 --> 0:20:36.400
<v Speaker 2>companies that I tested out that sells continuous glucose monitors.

0:20:36.720 --> 0:20:39.359
<v Speaker 2>They make the software actually was co founded by Trump's

0:20:39.680 --> 0:20:42.560
<v Speaker 2>pick for Surge. In general, Casey means, the company is

0:20:42.560 --> 0:20:46.959
<v Speaker 2>called Levels, and it is very much about giving you

0:20:47.000 --> 0:20:49.960
<v Speaker 2>more information about what you're eating and how your body

0:20:50.000 --> 0:20:52.600
<v Speaker 2>is responding to it. And it's hard to argue with

0:20:53.520 --> 0:20:57.280
<v Speaker 2>giving people more information, but I do think that it's

0:20:57.320 --> 0:21:01.800
<v Speaker 2>a slippery slope when you are are not just empowering

0:21:01.840 --> 0:21:04.960
<v Speaker 2>them with information, but empowering people to take things into

0:21:05.000 --> 0:21:07.960
<v Speaker 2>their own hands. And I did feel like some of

0:21:08.200 --> 0:21:12.040
<v Speaker 2>these health tracking companies flirt with that idea of you,

0:21:12.040 --> 0:21:13.960
<v Speaker 2>you can be your own doctor, and you can make

0:21:14.680 --> 0:21:18.080
<v Speaker 2>the right healthcare decisions without needing to be involved in

0:21:18.119 --> 0:21:21.080
<v Speaker 2>the healthcare system. There are a lot of criticisms about

0:21:21.119 --> 0:21:25.119
<v Speaker 2>the US healthcare system that are really valid. But I

0:21:25.160 --> 0:21:27.840
<v Speaker 2>think that there are some of the Maha movement that

0:21:28.840 --> 0:21:32.720
<v Speaker 2>kind of think that people can make decisions better themselves

0:21:32.800 --> 0:21:37.800
<v Speaker 2>with the right devices and technologies, and having spent a

0:21:37.800 --> 0:21:40.680
<v Speaker 2>lot of time with these devices and technologies, I don't

0:21:40.680 --> 0:21:42.960
<v Speaker 2>think that's the case for me. I still like talking

0:21:43.000 --> 0:21:47.120
<v Speaker 2>to my doctor, and I still believe in traditional healthcare,

0:21:47.160 --> 0:21:49.560
<v Speaker 2>but I do think that this tech can be a

0:21:49.600 --> 0:21:50.960
<v Speaker 2>good supplement for a lot of people.

0:21:51.560 --> 0:21:54.080
<v Speaker 1>I remember in my high school theology class, so we

0:21:54.080 --> 0:21:57.000
<v Speaker 1>were introduced to this concept of the God of the gaps,

0:21:57.040 --> 0:22:00.639
<v Speaker 1>which is basically like everything you couldn't explain with science,

0:22:00.720 --> 0:22:02.679
<v Speaker 1>you could say, oh God, that's God, and that was

0:22:02.720 --> 0:22:06.480
<v Speaker 1>like a kind of diminishing wedge of like God's role

0:22:06.520 --> 0:22:08.400
<v Speaker 1>in the world. It makes me think about the tech

0:22:08.400 --> 0:22:10.560
<v Speaker 1>of the gaps. In other words, like we're in a

0:22:10.600 --> 0:22:13.160
<v Speaker 1>time where's mental health crisis, and so people are using

0:22:13.320 --> 0:22:15.560
<v Speaker 1>large language models to be a therapist. There's a time

0:22:15.560 --> 0:22:18.959
<v Speaker 1>where it's like tremendous chronic illness and very very uneven

0:22:19.000 --> 0:22:21.680
<v Speaker 1>access to healthcare, and so we see these like fitness

0:22:21.680 --> 0:22:24.800
<v Speaker 1>trapping tracking apps emerge like there's a kind of like

0:22:25.440 --> 0:22:30.320
<v Speaker 1>patchwork tech solutionism, which at the margins that all these

0:22:30.320 --> 0:22:33.320
<v Speaker 1>things can obviously be good, but in the aggregate they

0:22:33.359 --> 0:22:36.399
<v Speaker 1>do point towards like a wider absence.

0:22:36.480 --> 0:22:40.360
<v Speaker 2>Perhaps that's absolutely true, and it's something that I addressed

0:22:40.359 --> 0:22:42.959
<v Speaker 2>in my piece about this. There is a primary healthcare

0:22:43.400 --> 0:22:46.879
<v Speaker 2>crisis in the US, and it's not just an access

0:22:46.880 --> 0:22:50.600
<v Speaker 2>to healthcare crisis, which is its own crisis. Not enough

0:22:50.600 --> 0:22:53.560
<v Speaker 2>people in the US have health insurance, not enough can

0:22:53.880 --> 0:22:55.800
<v Speaker 2>get access to a doctor, and even if they do,

0:22:55.880 --> 0:22:59.400
<v Speaker 2>their primary care doctor is probably overworked and can't spend

0:22:59.440 --> 0:23:02.440
<v Speaker 2>more than ten minutes with them maybe in the whole year.

0:23:03.200 --> 0:23:05.479
<v Speaker 2>I can see how it's hard to depend on that

0:23:05.480 --> 0:23:08.720
<v Speaker 2>system for most people. And technology isn't necessarily coming in

0:23:08.800 --> 0:23:12.480
<v Speaker 2>to replace your doctor. I think that it's coming to

0:23:12.520 --> 0:23:15.439
<v Speaker 2>help make you feel better about what you're doing, maybe

0:23:15.960 --> 0:23:19.720
<v Speaker 2>in the absence of a doctor. But I continue to

0:23:19.800 --> 0:23:22.720
<v Speaker 2>kind of have a hard time towing the line here

0:23:22.760 --> 0:23:25.240
<v Speaker 2>because I do think that these devices are really helpful,

0:23:25.240 --> 0:23:29.640
<v Speaker 2>and I think that the technology is good but from

0:23:29.640 --> 0:23:33.000
<v Speaker 2>my own personal experience, I found that the more information

0:23:33.040 --> 0:23:36.200
<v Speaker 2>I collected about myself and my body, the more anxious

0:23:36.240 --> 0:23:38.280
<v Speaker 2>I felt about not knowing what it meant or what

0:23:38.359 --> 0:23:39.960
<v Speaker 2>to do with it. And then that's where I think

0:23:40.000 --> 0:23:42.399
<v Speaker 2>that the healthcare system has to come into play.

0:23:43.480 --> 0:23:45.800
<v Speaker 1>Just to close we told to the beginning the conversation

0:23:45.840 --> 0:23:49.960
<v Speaker 1>about privacy biometric data palm scans at the doctor, how

0:23:50.040 --> 0:23:54.040
<v Speaker 1>concerned were you and should other consumers be about this

0:23:54.160 --> 0:23:58.639
<v Speaker 1>treasure trove of health data escaping. I mean, obviously you

0:23:58.680 --> 0:24:01.800
<v Speaker 1>feel like it's your rings, you'll whoop, it's your Apple watch,

0:24:01.840 --> 0:24:06.320
<v Speaker 1>it's your continuous glucose monitor. But we've seen time and

0:24:06.359 --> 0:24:10.520
<v Speaker 1>again that the databases that stills information are permeable. How

0:24:10.600 --> 0:24:12.280
<v Speaker 1>much of a concern is that for you? And how

0:24:12.400 --> 0:24:15.200
<v Speaker 1>robust are the so security protocols from any of these

0:24:15.280 --> 0:24:17.280
<v Speaker 1>consumert health treking companies.

0:24:17.760 --> 0:24:19.880
<v Speaker 2>One thing I think that is really important to point

0:24:19.920 --> 0:24:23.119
<v Speaker 2>out here is that the data being collected by your

0:24:23.440 --> 0:24:25.919
<v Speaker 2>or ring, or your wo band or Apple watch is

0:24:25.960 --> 0:24:28.640
<v Speaker 2>not covered by HIPPA. Again, HIPPA is a really narrow

0:24:28.720 --> 0:24:31.160
<v Speaker 2>law and it's very serious, and I think the data

0:24:31.160 --> 0:24:34.119
<v Speaker 2>is well protected, but it's like your messages between you

0:24:34.160 --> 0:24:36.480
<v Speaker 2>and your doctor and your test results. Those things are covered,

0:24:36.920 --> 0:24:42.080
<v Speaker 2>but your oring data is not. We have seen major breaches.

0:24:42.160 --> 0:24:44.240
<v Speaker 2>There is a huge fit bit breach where a lot

0:24:44.280 --> 0:24:47.080
<v Speaker 2>of people's data got out there. I think with biometric

0:24:47.160 --> 0:24:50.840
<v Speaker 2>data it's permanent, so once it is out there, if

0:24:50.880 --> 0:24:53.800
<v Speaker 2>Amazon One got hacked and everybody's pomprints got out there,

0:24:54.359 --> 0:24:57.920
<v Speaker 2>they'd be out there. We saw what happens when data

0:24:58.000 --> 0:25:00.760
<v Speaker 2>kind of ends up in unexpected hands with the twenty

0:25:00.760 --> 0:25:03.439
<v Speaker 2>three and me bankruptcy, where a lot of people's DNA

0:25:03.480 --> 0:25:07.200
<v Speaker 2>information was up for sale. So I think that most

0:25:07.240 --> 0:25:10.879
<v Speaker 2>people should assume that whatever data they're giving up when

0:25:10.920 --> 0:25:13.320
<v Speaker 2>wearing one of these devices could get hacked and could

0:25:13.400 --> 0:25:15.960
<v Speaker 2>end up on the dark web being sold. But that's

0:25:15.960 --> 0:25:18.760
<v Speaker 2>true with any data that you're giving up when you're

0:25:18.840 --> 0:25:22.080
<v Speaker 2>surfing the web or doing anything with technology. I think

0:25:22.080 --> 0:25:25.320
<v Speaker 2>that there are companies that I trust more with my

0:25:25.400 --> 0:25:28.479
<v Speaker 2>data who have made a stronger commitment to protecting it,

0:25:29.040 --> 0:25:34.480
<v Speaker 2>like Apple. But I also think that there's a faith

0:25:34.520 --> 0:25:37.040
<v Speaker 2>that you have to have in using some of these products,

0:25:37.600 --> 0:25:40.560
<v Speaker 2>otherwise you'll go crazier or just not be able to

0:25:40.640 --> 0:25:42.800
<v Speaker 2>use technology in general. If you're just too scared about

0:25:43.000 --> 0:25:44.040
<v Speaker 2>getting hacked or a breach.

0:25:51.560 --> 0:26:09.159
<v Speaker 1>Adam, thank you so much, Thank you for tech Stuff.

0:26:09.280 --> 0:26:14.159
<v Speaker 1>I'mos Vloschin. This episode was produced by Elyza Dennis, Victoria Dominguez,

0:26:14.359 --> 0:26:18.120
<v Speaker 1>and Adriana Toppia. It was executive produced by me, Karen

0:26:18.200 --> 0:26:22.240
<v Speaker 1>Price and Kate Osborne for Kaleidoscope and Katrina Norval for

0:26:22.280 --> 0:26:26.679
<v Speaker 1>iHeart Podcasts. Jack Insley mixed this episode and Kyle Murdoch

0:26:26.720 --> 0:26:29.399
<v Speaker 1>wrote our theme song. Join us on Friday for the

0:26:29.440 --> 0:26:31.840
<v Speaker 1>Weekend tech when we'll run through all the headlines you

0:26:31.880 --> 0:26:35.040
<v Speaker 1>may have missed, and please rate, review, and reach out

0:26:35.080 --> 0:26:43.719
<v Speaker 1>to us at tech Stuff podcast at gmail dot com.