WEBVTT - Laurence Juber Discusses How to Copyright Harmony 0:00:02.200 --> 0:00:06.800 This is Masters in Business with Barry Ridholts on Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:09.720 --> 0:00:12.680 This week on the podcast, I have an extra special guest. 0:00:12.840 --> 0:00:15.640 His name is Lawrence Juber, and what can I say? 0:00:15.880 --> 0:00:21.560 He is one of the world's great guitarists, renown on 0:00:21.760 --> 0:00:25.360 his own right. He toured with Paul McCartney and wings Uh. 0:00:25.400 --> 0:00:28.760 He's played on just about everything in the world if 0:00:28.800 --> 0:00:32.240 you like them, the theme to James Bond, The Spy 0:00:32.280 --> 0:00:35.800 Who Loved Me or The Roseanne Show, that's him playing. 0:00:35.880 --> 0:00:40.159 He's been a session player with countless countless albums UM 0:00:40.240 --> 0:00:44.400 and and just as knowledgeable about music as as anyone 0:00:44.400 --> 0:00:47.599 in the world. UM. More than just a guitarist, he's 0:00:47.600 --> 0:00:53.080 a musicologist and a historian of music. He basically sat 0:00:53.080 --> 0:00:55.240 here with a guitar in his lap for ninety minutes 0:00:55.360 --> 0:01:00.920 and illustrated various things throughout our conversation. And if you 0:01:01.040 --> 0:01:04.039 stick around for the podcast extras, you'll hear not only 0:01:04.040 --> 0:01:10.720 play three songs, but demonstrate pieces of UM various other songs. 0:01:11.000 --> 0:01:13.800 I have a buddy who is a guitar aficionado sitting 0:01:13.920 --> 0:01:17.480 in the UM control room listening to the whole conversation, 0:01:17.880 --> 0:01:19.600 and I'm not going to be able to get the 0:01:19.640 --> 0:01:22.319 grin off his face for about six months, so, with 0:01:22.360 --> 0:01:27.039 no further ado, my session with l J. Lawrence Juber. 0:01:31.040 --> 0:01:34.679 My extra special guest this week is Lawrence Duber. Born 0:01:34.720 --> 0:01:37.959 and raised in London. He began playing guitar at age thirteen. 0:01:38.480 --> 0:01:42.440 He graduated university where he was immediately picked up as 0:01:42.480 --> 0:01:47.840 a session guitarist with famed producer George Martin. Later, he's 0:01:47.880 --> 0:01:51.360 invited to play with Paul McCartney's band Wings for their 0:01:51.480 --> 0:01:55.600 nineteen seventies tour. He has been a studio musician on 0:01:55.840 --> 0:02:01.080 thousands of sessions, played for numerous television and film soundtracks. 0:02:01.560 --> 0:02:04.960 When you hear this theme to James Bond, The Spy 0:02:05.040 --> 0:02:08.919 Who Loved Me, you're listening to Lawrence's work. Voted Guitarist 0:02:09.040 --> 0:02:12.080 of the Year, Top acoustic players of all time by 0:02:12.160 --> 0:02:18.240 numerous magazines. He has solo album since two and has 0:02:18.280 --> 0:02:22.679 won two Grammys. No lesser guitarist than Pete Townsend has 0:02:22.720 --> 0:02:27.440 called him a master. Lawrence Duber, Welcome back to Bloomberg. 0:02:27.680 --> 0:02:30.520 Thank you, Barry One TV show that you won't be 0:02:30.639 --> 0:02:33.880 hearing my work on any longer is Roseanne? Yes? Was 0:02:33.919 --> 0:02:39.440 that your work on the show? Oh yeah, that's you 0:02:39.680 --> 0:02:41.960 on the original. I played on the original first six 0:02:42.120 --> 0:02:45.480 years of the original, and now then the reboot also, 0:02:46.120 --> 0:02:50.640 so I'm gonna guess that those uh royalties are going 0:02:50.720 --> 0:02:52.760 to stop coming in. Well, you don't get a lot 0:02:52.760 --> 0:02:56.520 of royalties from that. There is a musicians Union fund 0:02:56.680 --> 0:03:02.080 that covers secondary markets on television and move so a 0:03:02.240 --> 0:03:06.200 very small percentage of the distributors gross goes into this fund, 0:03:06.200 --> 0:03:10.160 which then gets distributed amongst all the musicians that played 0:03:10.200 --> 0:03:12.399 on it. So I played on, for example, Polka Hunters. 0:03:13.000 --> 0:03:17.760 You know there were you know, hundreds of full orchestra. Yeah, 0:03:18.000 --> 0:03:20.280 it was like a t piece orchestra and all of 0:03:20.320 --> 0:03:22.760 that stuff. So I'm gonna guess it's a little different 0:03:22.880 --> 0:03:25.799 for let's say, bare Naked Ladies playing the theme song 0:03:25.880 --> 0:03:28.680 to The Big Bang. That's different. I remember having a 0:03:28.680 --> 0:03:32.760 discussion with Danny Alfman because originally when Fox was simply 0:03:32.800 --> 0:03:36.440 syndicated and not a network, and that's when the Simpsons started, 0:03:36.600 --> 0:03:40.560 right that, Danny said that he was shocked when he 0:03:40.880 --> 0:03:46.400 started getting royalties from Saturday morning cartoon shows. I forget 0:03:46.400 --> 0:03:50.400 what it was he'scored, but how much bigger those were 0:03:50.440 --> 0:03:52.560 from the network shows than he was getting from the 0:03:52.560 --> 0:03:55.880 Simpsons and because eventually the Simpsons became you know, a 0:03:55.920 --> 0:03:58.640 full on, full on network. Fox became a network, and 0:03:58.680 --> 0:04:00.920 then you know, that's a wall white thing. But that 0:04:01.040 --> 0:04:02.840 you know, that's as cap and b M I am 0:04:03.000 --> 0:04:06.880 that those royalties come through that. For musicians, there's a 0:04:06.920 --> 0:04:10.080 sag After Fund that was set up recently that's picking 0:04:10.160 --> 0:04:14.200 up stuff from foreign markets and and um other areas. 0:04:14.240 --> 0:04:17.440 And then there is the Secondary Markets Fund, which is 0:04:17.520 --> 0:04:19.480 you know, so if you're a musician, if you're a 0:04:19.560 --> 0:04:23.720 violinist who plays on multiple movie scores, you know, once 0:04:23.760 --> 0:04:26.120 a year you get a reasonable check. I mean it 0:04:26.240 --> 0:04:28.760 all kind of you know, helps oil the wheels of 0:04:28.839 --> 0:04:32.400 being a in the gig economy. So so let's talk 0:04:32.400 --> 0:04:35.360 a little bit about that. I was gonna discuss some 0:04:35.440 --> 0:04:39.479 of your early history, but we could circle back to that. 0:04:40.279 --> 0:04:45.400 How have things changed in terms of compensation from musicians 0:04:45.440 --> 0:04:49.600 And we should really discuss the possible changes in copyright 0:04:49.720 --> 0:04:52.720 rules since the last time you were here, there were 0:04:52.720 --> 0:04:55.680 a number of big cases decided and you pretty much 0:04:55.720 --> 0:05:00.440 predicted them all dead on Okay, different hats. Um let 0:05:00.480 --> 0:05:03.320 me put on my father hat. My dad had because 0:05:03.360 --> 0:05:07.200 my daughter, Elsie is has become quite successful as a songwriter. 0:05:08.000 --> 0:05:12.000 She has a cut on Beyonce's album She had Shore 0:05:12.120 --> 0:05:15.400 Mendez Mercy that was a hit last year. She wrote that, 0:05:16.120 --> 0:05:19.920 UM a bunch of stuff and she's working with like 0:05:20.240 --> 0:05:25.039 the highest doesn't get much bigger than that. And where 0:05:25.120 --> 0:05:30.280 it affects her is the migration to streaming rather than 0:05:31.360 --> 0:05:36.680 physical sales has had an impact because the writer's share 0:05:36.680 --> 0:05:39.479 coming from the mechanical royalties. You know that nine point 0:05:39.560 --> 0:05:43.800 one cents per track per album or singles, so that's 0:05:43.800 --> 0:05:48.919 sold that, Yeah, because those sales don't happen. The streaming 0:05:48.960 --> 0:05:54.400 revenue is quite different because the royalty structure on streaming 0:05:54.480 --> 0:05:58.800 is actually because of the digital millennium act from the 0:06:00.160 --> 0:06:05.160 that's tilted towards performers rather than the writers. So the performers. 0:06:05.200 --> 0:06:09.839 I get more money from my cover tunes being played 0:06:09.839 --> 0:06:14.080 on Pandora for example, then I do from my my 0:06:14.120 --> 0:06:18.920 own stuff as a as a writer. Um, I don't 0:06:18.920 --> 0:06:21.760 get you know, it's a fractional royalty. Is that is 0:06:21.760 --> 0:06:25.760 that appropriate? Shouldn't we be rewarding the creators of content 0:06:25.920 --> 0:06:29.839 as a as a well, but but from a performer 0:06:30.040 --> 0:06:32.880 is a creator of content? I mean you go back 0:06:32.880 --> 0:06:36.800 to terrestrial radio. And still to this day, performers don't 0:06:36.839 --> 0:06:39.760 get any royalty from terrestrial radio. I mean, that's a 0:06:39.800 --> 0:06:46.000 big bone of contention, UM, whereas they do from streaming UM. 0:06:46.080 --> 0:06:50.839 Whereas on terrestrial the writers get a significant the writers 0:06:50.839 --> 0:06:54.559 and publishers get a significant share, but the performance don't. 0:06:54.720 --> 0:06:59.560 So that was why performers started putting their names on compositions. 0:06:59.560 --> 0:07:03.360 You know, El This didn't write Heartbreak Hotel. He just 0:07:03.720 --> 0:07:07.279 you know, his manager made sure that his name was 0:07:07.360 --> 0:07:10.360 on there. So let's talk about the shrinking of the 0:07:10.440 --> 0:07:13.800 creative spaces as you've described it. Some of the new 0:07:14.040 --> 0:07:18.160 copyright rules that haven't passed legislation in the US yet, 0:07:18.480 --> 0:07:20.840 as well as some of the court cases have really 0:07:21.520 --> 0:07:25.040 hemmed in what creators can do. And going back to 0:07:25.240 --> 0:07:27.320 i'l see my daughter, I mean, she won't listen to 0:07:27.880 --> 0:07:31.280 top forty radio because she doesn't want to be influenced 0:07:31.320 --> 0:07:35.640 by what her peers are currently writing. So she's, you know, 0:07:35.720 --> 0:07:38.720 she's listening to she's listening to old is stuff and 0:07:38.800 --> 0:07:42.120 you know, like legacy stuff, because you have to be 0:07:42.240 --> 0:07:47.680 very careful not to subconsciously reproduce something that's you know, 0:07:47.800 --> 0:07:51.240 currently in in out there is it easy to get 0:07:51.240 --> 0:07:53.560 something stuck in your head and have it just it's 0:07:53.560 --> 0:07:55.880 what it is easy and you don't realize it sometimes 0:07:55.880 --> 0:07:58.520 that stuff is creeping in, well, that Tom Petty case 0:07:58.640 --> 0:08:01.400 with us Sam, but well, but that you know, and 0:08:01.480 --> 0:08:04.720 that's where the creative space shrinks to the extent that 0:08:04.760 --> 0:08:09.640 there are certain formulas, there are certain melodic formulas that 0:08:10.000 --> 0:08:13.200 so give us an example, well, that's an example, the 0:08:14.120 --> 0:08:16.960 Tom Petty one with with Sam Smith that it was. 0:08:17.520 --> 0:08:21.240 You can go to that space very easily without realizing 0:08:21.280 --> 0:08:23.640 that you're stepping on somebody else's copy. Right. That's where 0:08:23.680 --> 0:08:26.880 the legal system kind of is an equalizer with that. 0:08:27.440 --> 0:08:31.160 Where it becomes a problem, and a very very dangerous 0:08:32.080 --> 0:08:35.240 step is when you start talking about groove, when you 0:08:35.240 --> 0:08:39.520 start talking about rhythm, Yeah, because that's it. And there's 0:08:39.880 --> 0:08:43.640 very mystifying stuff about the Bloodlines case because it was 0:08:43.720 --> 0:08:47.160 based on the sheet music and yet the decisions were 0:08:47.200 --> 0:08:49.560 made on the basis of of the groove, which is 0:08:49.559 --> 0:08:52.920 not contained in the sheet right as part of it anyway, 0:08:53.120 --> 0:08:58.160 And it's understandable, but but not in the strict copyright sense. 0:08:58.760 --> 0:09:02.360 But but when you go in history, one thing that 0:09:02.400 --> 0:09:07.480 you you really cannot copyright is harmonic sequences because you 0:09:07.520 --> 0:09:12.520 can go back to the Renaissance and find chord sequences 0:09:12.600 --> 0:09:16.040 that are still in use today. An example of that 0:09:16.160 --> 0:09:22.520 being there's a a sequence called the pasi mezzo moderno pasmetzo, 0:09:22.600 --> 0:09:25.400 being a dance move. It's like a step and a 0:09:25.440 --> 0:09:33.199 half and the that sequence is like it's one four 0:09:33.800 --> 0:09:41.679 one five one four one five one. Now that in Elizabethan, 0:09:41.720 --> 0:09:46.640 England became known as the Gregory Walker. Interesting story. Thomas Morley, 0:09:46.800 --> 0:09:50.240 who was a composer, referred to it as such because 0:09:50.480 --> 0:09:53.559 Gregory was was actually a barbershop. It was a slang 0:09:53.880 --> 0:09:57.760 expression for a barbershop. And if you walked into a barbershop, 0:09:57.760 --> 0:10:00.880 there will be instruments hanging on the wall, and you know, 0:10:00.960 --> 0:10:03.160 so you're waiting instead of reading a magazine because they 0:10:03.160 --> 0:10:07.160 didn't have they didn't have the guitar. You well, git 0:10:07.240 --> 0:10:10.280 turn or loot or whatever. And that was the court 0:10:10.360 --> 0:10:13.320 sequence that will be played. So if you walked into 0:10:13.320 --> 0:10:16.120 a Gregory that's what you would hear. It was so common. 0:10:16.160 --> 0:10:20.240 It was like the twelve bar blues of the Renaissance 0:10:20.280 --> 0:10:24.280 era that's still being used. I mean, they're going to 0:10:24.400 --> 0:10:26.720 put me in the movies they're going to make a 0:10:26.760 --> 0:10:30.080 big star out of me. You know, it's that sequence. 0:10:30.120 --> 0:10:32.720 Even I saw her standing there is basically that sequence 0:10:33.400 --> 0:10:35.920 when the Saints go marching in and and there are 0:10:36.040 --> 0:10:39.560 certain sequences that are used. I mean, there's a bunch 0:10:39.559 --> 0:10:41.880 of Australian guys that put together all the songs that 0:10:42.000 --> 0:10:46.320 use one particular sequence that has been on hit records 0:10:46.360 --> 0:10:51.040 for the last fifty years. And and so when you 0:10:51.080 --> 0:10:55.200 start dealing with harmony, then you're really in trouble because 0:10:55.720 --> 0:10:59.800 there's only so many harmonic moves. And it's like trying 0:10:59.800 --> 0:11:02.680 to copyright grammar. It's like saying, well, wait a minute, 0:11:02.760 --> 0:11:05.760 you wrote a novel and it's full of sentences, therefore 0:11:06.480 --> 0:11:08.920 we own that copyright. That's you don't have the right 0:11:08.960 --> 0:11:12.280 to do that. I mean, it's that basic. And that's 0:11:12.440 --> 0:11:15.240 kind of where it was going with Um with the 0:11:16.240 --> 0:11:22.199 Stairway to Heaven, was that that particular sequence was a 0:11:22.240 --> 0:11:24.680 fairly generic sequence that you could actually track back to 0:11:24.720 --> 0:11:28.640 the early Baroque. We were discussing some of the copyright 0:11:28.679 --> 0:11:32.480 issues that have come up, and you referenced the risk 0:11:32.800 --> 0:11:37.480 when we start copyrighting the equivalent of grammar in music 0:11:37.520 --> 0:11:43.240 and mentioned some of the earlier baroque um chords that 0:11:43.480 --> 0:11:47.360 everybody seems to use kind of hard to copyright. Well, yeah, 0:11:47.400 --> 0:11:50.160 you can't copyright that, and the same reason you can't 0:11:50.160 --> 0:11:55.960 copyright groove. It's just it's it's too it's too generic, 0:11:56.320 --> 0:11:58.760 it's too much part of the fabric of music. You know. 0:11:58.800 --> 0:12:02.480 I'm wearing my music college just because I I when 0:12:02.520 --> 0:12:05.360 I went to college, I studied music and musicology. I 0:12:05.360 --> 0:12:08.920 didn't actually study guitar. I didn't do like a conservatory route. 0:12:09.160 --> 0:12:11.480 I was always self taught on guitar. I just really 0:12:11.679 --> 0:12:15.360 wanted to learn music, a music history, and just the 0:12:15.400 --> 0:12:18.280 whole context of it. So, so when you look at 0:12:18.360 --> 0:12:21.640 some of the copyright cases that have been around, how 0:12:21.720 --> 0:12:24.600 often do you see something and say, oh, yeah, that's 0:12:24.640 --> 0:12:28.240 from the fires or is that overstating it? Well, that's 0:12:28.240 --> 0:12:30.560 overstating it a little bit. I mean, most of the 0:12:30.600 --> 0:12:33.559 copyright cases that have gained the copyright cases that have 0:12:33.679 --> 0:12:37.280 gained news recently really are just in that kind of blurredline, 0:12:37.360 --> 0:12:40.400 stairway to Heaven kind of realm. Now, it didn't help 0:12:40.440 --> 0:12:44.880 with with Zeppelin that they have a history of ploining 0:12:45.200 --> 0:12:49.120 other people's compositions and over the years they've had to 0:12:49.160 --> 0:12:52.719 start giving, you know, giving credit to the people that 0:12:52.760 --> 0:12:56.199 they borrowed from. Now you go back to before there 0:12:56.320 --> 0:12:59.640 was copyright, and it was just perfectly common for composers 0:13:00.080 --> 0:13:04.839 to take particular melodic phrases or um I mean, Bark 0:13:04.920 --> 0:13:07.800 would borrow German folk songs or drinking songs all the 0:13:07.840 --> 0:13:11.559 time he was writing a cantata for the Sunday morning service. 0:13:11.600 --> 0:13:14.800 He wanted a melody that the congregation would instantly recognize, 0:13:15.080 --> 0:13:18.640 not have to compose something from from scratch. So a 0:13:18.760 --> 0:13:21.480 drinking song shows up in church, is that what he 0:13:21.520 --> 0:13:24.679 could be? Very much so it could be the peasant cantata, 0:13:24.960 --> 0:13:27.840 you know, that's that's that kind of approach. And there 0:13:27.880 --> 0:13:32.240 are certain generic sequences that were always used because they 0:13:32.240 --> 0:13:35.880 were familiar. In the Baroque era, there was a sequence 0:13:35.880 --> 0:13:49.760 called the Folia. That is, that particular sequence was well 0:13:49.960 --> 0:13:52.800 used all the way through to Beethoven. Rachmaninoff used it. 0:13:52.880 --> 0:13:55.640 I mean, it was just it was a standard sequence 0:13:55.679 --> 0:13:58.520 with its own melody attached. And then you get the 0:13:58.520 --> 0:14:02.800 the what was known as the the Andalusian cadence, which 0:14:02.840 --> 0:14:08.280 is and if you think of the number of tunes, 0:14:08.720 --> 0:14:12.200 like you know, walk Don't Run and Run Away and 0:14:12.440 --> 0:14:17.160 all these songs that use that sequence. There's no copyright 0:14:17.200 --> 0:14:19.840 on that. You's got a very cinematic feel. You could 0:14:19.880 --> 0:14:25.160 see it just before a sword fight or something like that. Yeah, 0:14:25.200 --> 0:14:27.240 I mean it's it's got that Spanish thing to it. 0:14:27.320 --> 0:14:30.320 But but I mean I found examples of that going 0:14:30.400 --> 0:14:33.680 back to, you know, the mid fifteen hundreds, I've been 0:14:33.720 --> 0:14:37.480 transcribing loop pieces for I'm doing a folio on the 0:14:37.520 --> 0:14:41.000 evolution of finger style guitar for for how Leonard and 0:14:41.000 --> 0:14:42.840 I've gone back to The earliest piece I have is 0:14:42.920 --> 0:14:46.520 fifteen oh seven. Attempt to play it right now. So 0:14:47.080 --> 0:14:49.480 from learning, how do you get from loot to a 0:14:49.520 --> 0:14:53.040 modern guitar? What are the intervening steps? You're dealing with 0:14:53.720 --> 0:14:56.880 the basic concept of an instrument with a long neck 0:14:56.920 --> 0:15:00.760 and frets and strings. I mean, that's that's a kind 0:15:00.760 --> 0:15:04.640 of generic instrument. It's in organology, which is a study 0:15:04.640 --> 0:15:07.440 of instruments, is that's a long necked loot, even if 0:15:07.440 --> 0:15:12.320 it's not actually like the bowl backed loot of the Renaissance. 0:15:12.680 --> 0:15:15.920 So there are various other instruments that kind of developed 0:15:15.920 --> 0:15:19.720 parallel with it. The earliest guitar you get is the 0:15:19.800 --> 0:15:24.760 earliest illustration is about four five that far back well, 0:15:24.760 --> 0:15:28.320 and they go back earlier, but they're not specifically guitar. 0:15:28.400 --> 0:15:34.360 There gitterns and citterns and similar instruments. But in the Renaissance, 0:15:34.400 --> 0:15:38.120 the loot was the dominant instrument, except in Spain, which 0:15:38.360 --> 0:15:41.720 had the vihuela, which looked like a guitar but was 0:15:41.720 --> 0:15:43.840 actually strung like a loot, and and all you have 0:15:43.920 --> 0:15:49.320 to do change one string and you're in you're in 0:15:49.480 --> 0:15:55.480 lute tuning, whereas you know that's guitar tuning. I mean 0:15:55.560 --> 0:15:58.840 it's it's so you can play those kinds of pieces. 0:15:59.680 --> 0:16:03.880 It evolved from the Renaissance, which was small instrument, almost 0:16:03.920 --> 0:16:07.800 like a ukulele. The Baroque guitar added an extra string, 0:16:07.880 --> 0:16:10.200 so you went from four strings or four courses because 0:16:10.200 --> 0:16:15.720 they were double strategy, to five, and then roundabout sevent 0:16:16.200 --> 0:16:18.880 eighty you get to the six string guitar. So the 0:16:18.960 --> 0:16:22.760 modern guitar really dates from there. But but you can 0:16:22.840 --> 0:16:25.880 track the history of fretted instruments that were played with 0:16:25.920 --> 0:16:29.120 the fingers going back even to the medieval ere. I mean, 0:16:29.120 --> 0:16:32.680 there's there was a john the looter was was on 0:16:32.720 --> 0:16:36.120 the royal roles in England getting four shillings a week 0:16:36.640 --> 0:16:39.120 in like twelve eighty five. I mean it goes back 0:16:39.160 --> 0:16:43.480 that far. The professional looter, the professional from the from 0:16:43.520 --> 0:16:47.680 the royal court. That that's fascinating. So you mentioned earlier 0:16:47.720 --> 0:16:53.800 that the space for creators of all types is getting 0:16:53.880 --> 0:16:56.160 hemmed in and shrinking a little bit. How are we 0:16:56.240 --> 0:17:00.560 seeing that manifest itself in minor times. Well, the main 0:17:00.600 --> 0:17:04.320 manifestation of it is the way that sampling has has 0:17:04.400 --> 0:17:09.560 kind of created this collaborative, collective environment for writing it, 0:17:09.560 --> 0:17:12.679 which is why you might see a dozen writers on 0:17:12.760 --> 0:17:17.040 a song, because sometimes the songs are just created in 0:17:17.080 --> 0:17:21.040 a very um fractional way where somebody will write the hook, 0:17:21.080 --> 0:17:23.360 and then somebody else will write the verse, and and 0:17:23.760 --> 0:17:27.080 maybe a producer or two will come up with beats, 0:17:27.119 --> 0:17:30.480 and it's you know, so all those elements are now 0:17:30.960 --> 0:17:33.600 embedded in the copyright. It used to be that it 0:17:33.680 --> 0:17:36.680 was simply melody and lyrics, and that's still what the 0:17:36.760 --> 0:17:40.760 law says. But the convention since hip hop, really the 0:17:40.800 --> 0:17:44.800 convention is that if you contribute to the the actual track, 0:17:45.000 --> 0:17:48.239 that that gives you a writer share. But a lot 0:17:48.280 --> 0:17:51.840 of the people that are doing that aren't musicians. They 0:17:51.920 --> 0:17:57.880 know how to manipulate sounds, but they're not necessarily musical producers, engineers, 0:17:58.119 --> 0:18:01.199 anyone who's well engineers typically don't get part of that, 0:18:01.280 --> 0:18:04.760 but they will be in the Music Modernization Act, they're 0:18:04.760 --> 0:18:09.439 going to create a royalty for producers and for engineers. 0:18:09.960 --> 0:18:13.440 But if it's anything like what the musicians get from 0:18:13.480 --> 0:18:16.160 the sound Exchange side of it. As a session musician, 0:18:16.680 --> 0:18:22.320 there's five is devoted to the background people as opposed 0:18:22.359 --> 0:18:27.320 to to the record label to the performer. But the 0:18:27.400 --> 0:18:30.560 way that that gets tracked is very difficult because sound 0:18:30.600 --> 0:18:32.960 exchange you can only learn it from either the meta 0:18:33.080 --> 0:18:37.359 information that goes in the spreadsheet that's submitted with the recording, 0:18:38.359 --> 0:18:40.800 or they get it from the Musicians Union, from the 0:18:40.880 --> 0:18:45.720 musicians Union contracts, but very few records go through the union. 0:18:46.680 --> 0:18:48.879 You know, the union is much stronger on the TV 0:18:49.480 --> 0:18:51.359 a movie side of things than it is on the 0:18:51.359 --> 0:18:53.679 record side of things. Why do you think that is 0:18:53.720 --> 0:18:56.680 having it's well, it's part of it is the nature 0:18:56.680 --> 0:18:59.000 of the way records are made. And part of it 0:18:59.040 --> 0:19:00.719 is if you're going to put together they're an orchestra 0:19:00.800 --> 0:19:03.240 to play on a movie, you really need to have 0:19:03.320 --> 0:19:06.440 the union involved in that. Because there are scales, there's 0:19:06.600 --> 0:19:10.399 you know, which is why producers have been going to 0:19:10.560 --> 0:19:15.399 Prague and to Budapest and to you know, Seattle to 0:19:15.520 --> 0:19:18.800 do stuff nonunion, because they don't then have to deal 0:19:18.880 --> 0:19:21.320 with the other ramification of it, which is what I 0:19:21.400 --> 0:19:24.919 mentioned earlier, which is the secondary markets fund, where they 0:19:25.080 --> 0:19:29.600 resent having to give this minute portion to the musicians. 0:19:29.720 --> 0:19:32.520 Even though the teams just get their share and you know, 0:19:32.560 --> 0:19:35.040 the other unions get their share, the musicians have always 0:19:35.080 --> 0:19:38.679 been kind of backled off to the side. Yeah, that 0:19:38.840 --> 0:19:41.879 that's fascinating. But but in terms of the creative space, 0:19:41.960 --> 0:19:45.720 I just think that there are certain generic sequences that 0:19:45.800 --> 0:19:49.400 are built into music making, and at some point if 0:19:49.440 --> 0:19:54.119 you start to to make those copyrightable, then you really 0:19:54.200 --> 0:19:56.879 limit what can be done. Let's talk a little bit 0:19:56.880 --> 0:20:01.320 about some of the unusual tunings that you do that 0:20:01.520 --> 0:20:04.960 allow you to play things that a regular guitar really 0:20:05.040 --> 0:20:08.639 can't play. And during the break you moved over to 0:20:09.000 --> 0:20:12.800 dad gad tuning. What does dad gad do that the 0:20:12.960 --> 0:20:18.440 regular standard guitar tuning doesn't allow. Well, this is dad goad, 0:20:20.720 --> 0:20:26.400 which gives me three D strings and to a strings 0:20:27.119 --> 0:20:30.679 energy string, which means that for one thing. I have 0:20:31.280 --> 0:20:37.879 the kind of sound of octaves that is like a 0:20:38.119 --> 0:20:41.200 twelve almost like a twelve string. And then because there 0:20:41.200 --> 0:20:43.600 are two adjacent scale tones, a G and an A, 0:20:46.040 --> 0:20:52.000 that gives me the opportunity to do these kind of 0:20:52.040 --> 0:20:59.399 cascading patterns, which actually, interestingly enough, it is one of 0:20:59.400 --> 0:21:02.960 the things that's characteristic of baroque guitar because on the 0:21:02.960 --> 0:21:06.360 barroke guitar, like on a ukulele, the bottom two strings 0:21:06.359 --> 0:21:09.000 were often tuned up an octave, so you get this 0:21:09.080 --> 0:21:13.720 kind of cross fingering where where like things can sustain 0:21:13.960 --> 0:21:19.360 so instead of gives it a different kind of texture. 0:21:19.720 --> 0:21:25.119 But I just found that it's great for articulating pop songs. Really, 0:21:25.160 --> 0:21:27.680 you want me to play something I mentioned earlier, I 0:21:27.760 --> 0:21:32.440 mentioned Runaway as being an example of the Andalusian cadence. 0:22:35.560 --> 0:22:39.480 That's that's wonderful. And for people who are just listening 0:22:39.520 --> 0:22:44.680 to this and not viewing it, you're simultaneously playing the melody, 0:22:45.080 --> 0:22:48.159 the vocals, and the background with them all at the 0:22:48.200 --> 0:22:51.160 same time. There's no overdubs. This is live. You just 0:22:51.280 --> 0:22:54.680 basically pulled the guitar out and started playing that. We're 0:22:54.680 --> 0:22:57.359 not we're not running multiple loops around, which is what 0:22:57.440 --> 0:23:02.880 finger style guitar is. It's the reality to play all 0:23:02.880 --> 0:23:06.080 the parts because you're using the sum and you know, 0:23:06.359 --> 0:23:10.720 typically through the three principal right hand fingers, and then 0:23:10.960 --> 0:23:16.200 being in that tuning also gives me the capability of 0:23:16.200 --> 0:23:19.560 of allowing some of the middle the inner parts to 0:23:19.880 --> 0:23:25.399 work more more resonantly than they than they would in 0:23:25.480 --> 0:23:28.080 standard tuning. And that's because you have the three G 0:23:28.840 --> 0:23:30.760 it's part of it, it's part of it. It's just 0:23:30.880 --> 0:23:34.560 it's and it's a suspended tuning, whereas standard tuning is 0:23:34.560 --> 0:23:37.560 actually kind of an E minor tuning, so it kind 0:23:37.560 --> 0:23:41.600 of is more self defining. Whereas with that gadded there's there. 0:23:41.680 --> 0:23:44.400 You don't have a major third in the tuning. That's 0:23:44.520 --> 0:23:47.280 the beauty of standard tuning is it does have that 0:23:47.359 --> 0:23:51.000 third in it, which makes major chords actually flow in 0:23:51.040 --> 0:23:53.600 a very interesting fashion. And you go back again to 0:23:53.680 --> 0:23:56.840 the Baroque and they had a system where they laid 0:23:56.840 --> 0:23:59.359 out all the chords and you could learn how to 0:23:59.359 --> 0:24:02.639 play rhythm guitar strung guitar just by following this what 0:24:02.640 --> 0:24:07.320 they called alphabeto system and you learn the shapes, and 0:24:07.400 --> 0:24:10.360 Dad add it's not really about shapes for me, it's 0:24:10.440 --> 0:24:14.600 it's that's the discovery mechanism used to find the inner 0:24:14.640 --> 0:24:18.359 workings of the song within that tune. You've described it 0:24:18.520 --> 0:24:24.200 as a vertical approach as opposed to a horizontal approach. Yeah, 0:24:24.240 --> 0:24:28.480 because the I'm looking at what's happening on every particular 0:24:28.560 --> 0:24:32.760 beat rather than a very like a more linear kind 0:24:32.800 --> 0:24:37.480 of approach. So because I'm trying to developed like a richness, 0:24:37.560 --> 0:24:41.199 bring out the scenarity of the guitar so that it 0:24:41.280 --> 0:24:44.720 doesn't the sound doesn't die, but keeps going, so that 0:24:44.720 --> 0:24:47.520 it has its own internal life. So how does that 0:24:47.640 --> 0:24:52.000 compare with other instruments such as a piano, where you 0:24:52.080 --> 0:24:54.520 pretty much have every note right there in front of 0:24:54.640 --> 0:24:57.119 there you go, you know, it's the the whole spectrum 0:24:57.160 --> 0:24:58.639 is right there in front of you on the piano. 0:24:58.680 --> 0:25:00.760 On the guitar, you have to have kind of a 0:25:00.840 --> 0:25:04.080 virtual piano in your head at least the spectrum that 0:25:04.400 --> 0:25:06.720 you know the spectrum instruments. And this is something that 0:25:06.760 --> 0:25:09.720 I try and encourage music teachers to understand is that 0:25:09.760 --> 0:25:16.320 their guitar players are actually more musically cognizant then than 0:25:16.400 --> 0:25:19.520 the piano players. Maybe because on the guitar you really 0:25:19.520 --> 0:25:22.280 have to understand. If you really want to advance with it, 0:25:22.480 --> 0:25:24.840 you have to understand how the notes relate to each other. 0:25:25.200 --> 0:25:27.280 Whereas on the piano you can pretty much just look 0:25:27.320 --> 0:25:31.399 at the fingering patterns and just follow that. Um. But 0:25:31.400 --> 0:25:34.199 if you want to really do something original on the guitar, 0:25:34.560 --> 0:25:40.919 then it's understanding it's musical capabilities. Um. You said something 0:25:41.000 --> 0:25:43.520 earlier I have to circle back to because it was 0:25:43.600 --> 0:25:47.600 it was so fascinating on streaming. I believe it was. 0:25:47.880 --> 0:25:50.880 When you're doing a cover song, you get paid more 0:25:50.920 --> 0:25:54.400 than the original composition, not It depends on how much 0:25:54.400 --> 0:25:58.000 it gets played. For example, this week, my number one 0:25:58.720 --> 0:26:04.080 play on Pandora is stand by Me. Um, and you 0:26:04.119 --> 0:26:10.760 know usually it's my Christmas music. Yeah, Um, but I 0:26:10.800 --> 0:26:12.399 did a cover of it. In fact, got used in 0:26:12.400 --> 0:26:15.879 a Dabers Diamond commercial some times ago, which was kind 0:26:15.920 --> 0:26:18.800 of a nice license fee for that. So the commercial 0:26:18.840 --> 0:26:21.400 license fees are more well that's yeah, that's a whole 0:26:21.400 --> 0:26:25.080 different piece of business. But but what I mean by 0:26:25.240 --> 0:26:28.600 the fact is that cover tunes tend to get more attention. 0:26:29.400 --> 0:26:32.560 I mean, and also Christmas stuff because that's of the 0:26:32.760 --> 0:26:37.280 entire music market is really that's astonishing, and people listen 0:26:37.359 --> 0:26:40.320 to that stuff all year round too, And I was 0:26:40.400 --> 0:26:44.600 very lucky in so far as my early stuff got 0:26:44.640 --> 0:26:48.320 into the Pandora ecosystem. Now it's much harder to get 0:26:48.359 --> 0:26:52.280 in um, but you know, stuff creeps in. But but 0:26:52.400 --> 0:26:54.640