1 00:00:02,200 --> 00:00:06,800 Speaker 1: This is Masters in Business with Barry Ridholts on Bloomberg Radio. 2 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:12,680 Speaker 1: This week on the podcast, I have an extra special guest. 3 00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:15,640 Speaker 1: His name is Lawrence Juber, and what can I say? 4 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:21,560 Speaker 1: He is one of the world's great guitarists, renown on 5 00:00:21,760 --> 00:00:25,360 Speaker 1: his own right. He toured with Paul McCartney and wings Uh. 6 00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:28,760 Speaker 1: He's played on just about everything in the world if 7 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:32,240 Speaker 1: you like them, the theme to James Bond, The Spy 8 00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:35,800 Speaker 1: Who Loved Me or The Roseanne Show, that's him playing. 9 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:40,159 Speaker 1: He's been a session player with countless countless albums UM 10 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:44,400 Speaker 1: and and just as knowledgeable about music as as anyone 11 00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:47,599 Speaker 1: in the world. UM. More than just a guitarist, he's 12 00:00:47,600 --> 00:00:53,080 Speaker 1: a musicologist and a historian of music. He basically sat 13 00:00:53,080 --> 00:00:55,240 Speaker 1: here with a guitar in his lap for ninety minutes 14 00:00:55,360 --> 00:01:00,920 Speaker 1: and illustrated various things throughout our conversation. And if you 15 00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:04,039 Speaker 1: stick around for the podcast extras, you'll hear not only 16 00:01:04,040 --> 00:01:10,720 Speaker 1: play three songs, but demonstrate pieces of UM various other songs. 17 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:13,800 Speaker 1: I have a buddy who is a guitar aficionado sitting 18 00:01:13,920 --> 00:01:17,480 Speaker 1: in the UM control room listening to the whole conversation, 19 00:01:17,880 --> 00:01:19,600 Speaker 1: and I'm not going to be able to get the 20 00:01:19,640 --> 00:01:22,319 Speaker 1: grin off his face for about six months, so, with 21 00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:27,039 Speaker 1: no further ado, my session with l J. Lawrence Juber. 22 00:01:31,040 --> 00:01:34,679 Speaker 1: My extra special guest this week is Lawrence Duber. Born 23 00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:37,959 Speaker 1: and raised in London. He began playing guitar at age thirteen. 24 00:01:38,480 --> 00:01:42,440 Speaker 1: He graduated university where he was immediately picked up as 25 00:01:42,480 --> 00:01:47,840 Speaker 1: a session guitarist with famed producer George Martin. Later, he's 26 00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:51,360 Speaker 1: invited to play with Paul McCartney's band Wings for their 27 00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:55,600 Speaker 1: nineteen seventies tour. He has been a studio musician on 28 00:01:55,840 --> 00:02:01,080 Speaker 1: thousands of sessions, played for numerous television and film soundtracks. 29 00:02:01,560 --> 00:02:04,960 Speaker 1: When you hear this theme to James Bond, The Spy 30 00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:08,919 Speaker 1: Who Loved Me, you're listening to Lawrence's work. Voted Guitarist 31 00:02:09,040 --> 00:02:12,080 Speaker 1: of the Year, Top acoustic players of all time by 32 00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:18,240 Speaker 1: numerous magazines. He has solo album since two and has 33 00:02:18,280 --> 00:02:22,679 Speaker 1: won two Grammys. No lesser guitarist than Pete Townsend has 34 00:02:22,720 --> 00:02:27,440 Speaker 1: called him a master. Lawrence Duber, Welcome back to Bloomberg. 35 00:02:27,680 --> 00:02:30,520 Speaker 1: Thank you, Barry One TV show that you won't be 36 00:02:30,639 --> 00:02:33,880 Speaker 1: hearing my work on any longer is Roseanne? Yes? Was 37 00:02:33,919 --> 00:02:39,440 Speaker 1: that your work on the show? Oh yeah, that's you 38 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:41,960 Speaker 1: on the original. I played on the original first six 39 00:02:42,120 --> 00:02:45,480 Speaker 1: years of the original, and now then the reboot also, 40 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:50,640 Speaker 1: so I'm gonna guess that those uh royalties are going 41 00:02:50,720 --> 00:02:52,760 Speaker 1: to stop coming in. Well, you don't get a lot 42 00:02:52,760 --> 00:02:56,520 Speaker 1: of royalties from that. There is a musicians Union fund 43 00:02:56,680 --> 00:03:02,080 Speaker 1: that covers secondary markets on television and move so a 44 00:03:02,240 --> 00:03:06,200 Speaker 1: very small percentage of the distributors gross goes into this fund, 45 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:10,160 Speaker 1: which then gets distributed amongst all the musicians that played 46 00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:12,399 Speaker 1: on it. So I played on, for example, Polka Hunters. 47 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:17,760 Speaker 1: You know there were you know, hundreds of full orchestra. Yeah, 48 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:20,280 Speaker 1: it was like a t piece orchestra and all of 49 00:03:20,320 --> 00:03:22,760 Speaker 1: that stuff. So I'm gonna guess it's a little different 50 00:03:22,880 --> 00:03:25,799 Speaker 1: for let's say, bare Naked Ladies playing the theme song 51 00:03:25,880 --> 00:03:28,680 Speaker 1: to The Big Bang. That's different. I remember having a 52 00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:32,760 Speaker 1: discussion with Danny Alfman because originally when Fox was simply 53 00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:36,440 Speaker 1: syndicated and not a network, and that's when the Simpsons started, 54 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:40,560 Speaker 1: right that, Danny said that he was shocked when he 55 00:03:40,880 --> 00:03:46,400 Speaker 1: started getting royalties from Saturday morning cartoon shows. I forget 56 00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:50,400 Speaker 1: what it was he'scored, but how much bigger those were 57 00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:52,560 Speaker 1: from the network shows than he was getting from the 58 00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:55,880 Speaker 1: Simpsons and because eventually the Simpsons became you know, a 59 00:03:55,920 --> 00:03:58,640 Speaker 1: full on, full on network. Fox became a network, and 60 00:03:58,680 --> 00:04:00,920 Speaker 1: then you know, that's a wall white thing. But that 61 00:04:01,040 --> 00:04:02,840 Speaker 1: you know, that's as cap and b M I am 62 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:06,880 Speaker 1: that those royalties come through that. For musicians, there's a 63 00:04:06,920 --> 00:04:10,080 Speaker 1: sag After Fund that was set up recently that's picking 64 00:04:10,160 --> 00:04:14,200 Speaker 1: up stuff from foreign markets and and um other areas. 65 00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:17,440 Speaker 1: And then there is the Secondary Markets Fund, which is 66 00:04:17,520 --> 00:04:19,480 Speaker 1: you know, so if you're a musician, if you're a 67 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:23,720 Speaker 1: violinist who plays on multiple movie scores, you know, once 68 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:26,120 Speaker 1: a year you get a reasonable check. I mean it 69 00:04:26,240 --> 00:04:28,760 Speaker 1: all kind of you know, helps oil the wheels of 70 00:04:28,839 --> 00:04:32,400 Speaker 1: being a in the gig economy. So so let's talk 71 00:04:32,400 --> 00:04:35,360 Speaker 1: a little bit about that. I was gonna discuss some 72 00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:39,479 Speaker 1: of your early history, but we could circle back to that. 73 00:04:40,279 --> 00:04:45,400 Speaker 1: How have things changed in terms of compensation from musicians 74 00:04:45,440 --> 00:04:49,600 Speaker 1: And we should really discuss the possible changes in copyright 75 00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:52,720 Speaker 1: rules since the last time you were here, there were 76 00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:55,680 Speaker 1: a number of big cases decided and you pretty much 77 00:04:55,720 --> 00:05:00,440 Speaker 1: predicted them all dead on Okay, different hats. Um let 78 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:03,320 Speaker 1: me put on my father hat. My dad had because 79 00:05:03,360 --> 00:05:07,200 Speaker 1: my daughter, Elsie is has become quite successful as a songwriter. 80 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:12,000 Speaker 1: She has a cut on Beyonce's album She had Shore 81 00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:15,400 Speaker 1: Mendez Mercy that was a hit last year. She wrote that, 82 00:05:16,120 --> 00:05:19,920 Speaker 1: UM a bunch of stuff and she's working with like 83 00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:25,039 Speaker 1: the highest doesn't get much bigger than that. And where 84 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:30,280 Speaker 1: it affects her is the migration to streaming rather than 85 00:05:31,360 --> 00:05:36,680 Speaker 1: physical sales has had an impact because the writer's share 86 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:39,479 Speaker 1: coming from the mechanical royalties. You know that nine point 87 00:05:39,560 --> 00:05:43,800 Speaker 1: one cents per track per album or singles, so that's 88 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:48,919 Speaker 1: sold that, Yeah, because those sales don't happen. The streaming 89 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:54,400 Speaker 1: revenue is quite different because the royalty structure on streaming 90 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:58,800 Speaker 1: is actually because of the digital millennium act from the 91 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:05,160 Speaker 1: that's tilted towards performers rather than the writers. So the performers. 92 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:09,839 Speaker 1: I get more money from my cover tunes being played 93 00:06:09,839 --> 00:06:14,080 Speaker 1: on Pandora for example, then I do from my my 94 00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:18,920 Speaker 1: own stuff as a as a writer. Um, I don't 95 00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:21,760 Speaker 1: get you know, it's a fractional royalty. Is that is 96 00:06:21,760 --> 00:06:25,760 Speaker 1: that appropriate? Shouldn't we be rewarding the creators of content 97 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:29,839 Speaker 1: as a as a well, but but from a performer 98 00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:32,880 Speaker 1: is a creator of content? I mean you go back 99 00:06:32,880 --> 00:06:36,800 Speaker 1: to terrestrial radio. And still to this day, performers don't 100 00:06:36,839 --> 00:06:39,760 Speaker 1: get any royalty from terrestrial radio. I mean, that's a 101 00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:46,000 Speaker 1: big bone of contention, UM, whereas they do from streaming UM. 102 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:50,839 Speaker 1: Whereas on terrestrial the writers get a significant the writers 103 00:06:50,839 --> 00:06:54,559 Speaker 1: and publishers get a significant share, but the performance don't. 104 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:59,560 Speaker 1: So that was why performers started putting their names on compositions. 105 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:03,360 Speaker 1: You know, El This didn't write Heartbreak Hotel. He just 106 00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:07,279 Speaker 1: you know, his manager made sure that his name was 107 00:07:07,360 --> 00:07:10,360 Speaker 1: on there. So let's talk about the shrinking of the 108 00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:13,800 Speaker 1: creative spaces as you've described it. Some of the new 109 00:07:14,040 --> 00:07:18,160 Speaker 1: copyright rules that haven't passed legislation in the US yet, 110 00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:20,840 Speaker 1: as well as some of the court cases have really 111 00:07:21,520 --> 00:07:25,040 Speaker 1: hemmed in what creators can do. And going back to 112 00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:27,320 Speaker 1: i'l see my daughter, I mean, she won't listen to 113 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:31,280 Speaker 1: top forty radio because she doesn't want to be influenced 114 00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:35,640 Speaker 1: by what her peers are currently writing. So she's, you know, 115 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:38,720 Speaker 1: she's listening to she's listening to old is stuff and 116 00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:42,120 Speaker 1: you know, like legacy stuff, because you have to be 117 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:47,680 Speaker 1: very careful not to subconsciously reproduce something that's you know, 118 00:07:47,800 --> 00:07:51,240 Speaker 1: currently in in out there is it easy to get 119 00:07:51,240 --> 00:07:53,560 Speaker 1: something stuck in your head and have it just it's 120 00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 1: what it is easy and you don't realize it sometimes 121 00:07:55,880 --> 00:07:58,520 Speaker 1: that stuff is creeping in, well, that Tom Petty case 122 00:07:58,640 --> 00:08:01,400 Speaker 1: with us Sam, but well, but that you know, and 123 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:04,720 Speaker 1: that's where the creative space shrinks to the extent that 124 00:08:04,760 --> 00:08:09,640 Speaker 1: there are certain formulas, there are certain melodic formulas that 125 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:13,200 Speaker 1: so give us an example, well, that's an example, the 126 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:16,960 Speaker 1: Tom Petty one with with Sam Smith that it was. 127 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:21,240 Speaker 1: You can go to that space very easily without realizing 128 00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:23,640 Speaker 1: that you're stepping on somebody else's copy. Right. That's where 129 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:26,880 Speaker 1: the legal system kind of is an equalizer with that. 130 00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:31,160 Speaker 1: Where it becomes a problem, and a very very dangerous 131 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:35,240 Speaker 1: step is when you start talking about groove, when you 132 00:08:35,240 --> 00:08:39,520 Speaker 1: start talking about rhythm, Yeah, because that's it. And there's 133 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:43,640 Speaker 1: very mystifying stuff about the Bloodlines case because it was 134 00:08:43,720 --> 00:08:47,160 Speaker 1: based on the sheet music and yet the decisions were 135 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:49,560 Speaker 1: made on the basis of of the groove, which is 136 00:08:49,559 --> 00:08:52,920 Speaker 1: not contained in the sheet right as part of it anyway, 137 00:08:53,120 --> 00:08:58,160 Speaker 1: And it's understandable, but but not in the strict copyright sense. 138 00:08:58,760 --> 00:09:02,360 Speaker 1: But but when you go in history, one thing that 139 00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:07,480 Speaker 1: you you really cannot copyright is harmonic sequences because you 140 00:09:07,520 --> 00:09:12,520 Speaker 1: can go back to the Renaissance and find chord sequences 141 00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:16,040 Speaker 1: that are still in use today. An example of that 142 00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:22,520 Speaker 1: being there's a a sequence called the pasi mezzo moderno pasmetzo, 143 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:25,400 Speaker 1: being a dance move. It's like a step and a 144 00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:33,199 Speaker 1: half and the that sequence is like it's one four 145 00:09:33,800 --> 00:09:41,679 Speaker 1: one five one four one five one. Now that in Elizabethan, 146 00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:46,640 Speaker 1: England became known as the Gregory Walker. Interesting story. Thomas Morley, 147 00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:50,240 Speaker 1: who was a composer, referred to it as such because 148 00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:53,559 Speaker 1: Gregory was was actually a barbershop. It was a slang 149 00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:57,760 Speaker 1: expression for a barbershop. And if you walked into a barbershop, 150 00:09:57,760 --> 00:10:00,880 Speaker 1: there will be instruments hanging on the wall, and you know, 151 00:10:00,960 --> 00:10:03,160 Speaker 1: so you're waiting instead of reading a magazine because they 152 00:10:03,160 --> 00:10:07,160 Speaker 1: didn't have they didn't have the guitar. You well, git 153 00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:10,280 Speaker 1: turn or loot or whatever. And that was the court 154 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:13,320 Speaker 1: sequence that will be played. So if you walked into 155 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:16,120 Speaker 1: a Gregory that's what you would hear. It was so common. 156 00:10:16,160 --> 00:10:20,240 Speaker 1: It was like the twelve bar blues of the Renaissance 157 00:10:20,280 --> 00:10:24,280 Speaker 1: era that's still being used. I mean, they're going to 158 00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:26,720 Speaker 1: put me in the movies they're going to make a 159 00:10:26,760 --> 00:10:30,080 Speaker 1: big star out of me. You know, it's that sequence. 160 00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:32,720 Speaker 1: Even I saw her standing there is basically that sequence 161 00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:35,920 Speaker 1: when the Saints go marching in and and there are 162 00:10:36,040 --> 00:10:39,560 Speaker 1: certain sequences that are used. I mean, there's a bunch 163 00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:41,880 Speaker 1: of Australian guys that put together all the songs that 164 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:46,320 Speaker 1: use one particular sequence that has been on hit records 165 00:10:46,360 --> 00:10:51,040 Speaker 1: for the last fifty years. And and so when you 166 00:10:51,080 --> 00:10:55,200 Speaker 1: start dealing with harmony, then you're really in trouble because 167 00:10:55,720 --> 00:10:59,800 Speaker 1: there's only so many harmonic moves. And it's like trying 168 00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:02,680 Speaker 1: to copyright grammar. It's like saying, well, wait a minute, 169 00:11:02,760 --> 00:11:05,760 Speaker 1: you wrote a novel and it's full of sentences, therefore 170 00:11:06,480 --> 00:11:08,920 Speaker 1: we own that copyright. That's you don't have the right 171 00:11:08,960 --> 00:11:12,280 Speaker 1: to do that. I mean, it's that basic. And that's 172 00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:15,240 Speaker 1: kind of where it was going with Um with the 173 00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:22,199 Speaker 1: Stairway to Heaven, was that that particular sequence was a 174 00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:24,680 Speaker 1: fairly generic sequence that you could actually track back to 175 00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:28,640 Speaker 1: the early Baroque. We were discussing some of the copyright 176 00:11:28,679 --> 00:11:32,480 Speaker 1: issues that have come up, and you referenced the risk 177 00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:37,480 Speaker 1: when we start copyrighting the equivalent of grammar in music 178 00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:43,240 Speaker 1: and mentioned some of the earlier baroque um chords that 179 00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:47,360 Speaker 1: everybody seems to use kind of hard to copyright. Well, yeah, 180 00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:50,160 Speaker 1: you can't copyright that, and the same reason you can't 181 00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:55,960 Speaker 1: copyright groove. It's just it's it's too it's too generic, 182 00:11:56,320 --> 00:11:58,760 Speaker 1: it's too much part of the fabric of music. You know. 183 00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:02,480 Speaker 1: I'm wearing my music college just because I I when 184 00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:05,360 Speaker 1: I went to college, I studied music and musicology. I 185 00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:08,920 Speaker 1: didn't actually study guitar. I didn't do like a conservatory route. 186 00:12:09,160 --> 00:12:11,480 Speaker 1: I was always self taught on guitar. I just really 187 00:12:11,679 --> 00:12:15,360 Speaker 1: wanted to learn music, a music history, and just the 188 00:12:15,400 --> 00:12:18,280 Speaker 1: whole context of it. So, so when you look at 189 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:21,640 Speaker 1: some of the copyright cases that have been around, how 190 00:12:21,720 --> 00:12:24,600 Speaker 1: often do you see something and say, oh, yeah, that's 191 00:12:24,640 --> 00:12:28,240 Speaker 1: from the fires or is that overstating it? Well, that's 192 00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:30,560 Speaker 1: overstating it a little bit. I mean, most of the 193 00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:33,559 Speaker 1: copyright cases that have gained the copyright cases that have 194 00:12:33,679 --> 00:12:37,280 Speaker 1: gained news recently really are just in that kind of blurredline, 195 00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:40,400 Speaker 1: stairway to Heaven kind of realm. Now, it didn't help 196 00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:44,880 Speaker 1: with with Zeppelin that they have a history of ploining 197 00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:49,120 Speaker 1: other people's compositions and over the years they've had to 198 00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:52,719 Speaker 1: start giving, you know, giving credit to the people that 199 00:12:52,760 --> 00:12:56,199 Speaker 1: they borrowed from. Now you go back to before there 200 00:12:56,320 --> 00:12:59,640 Speaker 1: was copyright, and it was just perfectly common for composers 201 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:04,839 Speaker 1: to take particular melodic phrases or um I mean, Bark 202 00:13:04,920 --> 00:13:07,800 Speaker 1: would borrow German folk songs or drinking songs all the 203 00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:11,559 Speaker 1: time he was writing a cantata for the Sunday morning service. 204 00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:14,800 Speaker 1: He wanted a melody that the congregation would instantly recognize, 205 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:18,640 Speaker 1: not have to compose something from from scratch. So a 206 00:13:18,760 --> 00:13:21,480 Speaker 1: drinking song shows up in church, is that what he 207 00:13:21,520 --> 00:13:24,679 Speaker 1: could be? Very much so it could be the peasant cantata, 208 00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:27,840 Speaker 1: you know, that's that's that kind of approach. And there 209 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:32,240 Speaker 1: are certain generic sequences that were always used because they 210 00:13:32,240 --> 00:13:35,880 Speaker 1: were familiar. In the Baroque era, there was a sequence 211 00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:49,760 Speaker 1: called the Folia. That is, that particular sequence was well 212 00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:52,800 Speaker 1: used all the way through to Beethoven. Rachmaninoff used it. 213 00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:55,640 Speaker 1: I mean, it was just it was a standard sequence 214 00:13:55,679 --> 00:13:58,520 Speaker 1: with its own melody attached. And then you get the 215 00:13:58,520 --> 00:14:02,800 Speaker 1: the what was known as the the Andalusian cadence, which 216 00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:08,280 Speaker 1: is and if you think of the number of tunes, 217 00:14:08,720 --> 00:14:12,200 Speaker 1: like you know, walk Don't Run and Run Away and 218 00:14:12,440 --> 00:14:17,160 Speaker 1: all these songs that use that sequence. There's no copyright 219 00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:19,840 Speaker 1: on that. You's got a very cinematic feel. You could 220 00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:25,160 Speaker 1: see it just before a sword fight or something like that. Yeah, 221 00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:27,240 Speaker 1: I mean it's it's got that Spanish thing to it. 222 00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:30,320 Speaker 1: But but I mean I found examples of that going 223 00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:33,680 Speaker 1: back to, you know, the mid fifteen hundreds, I've been 224 00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:37,480 Speaker 1: transcribing loop pieces for I'm doing a folio on the 225 00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:41,000 Speaker 1: evolution of finger style guitar for for how Leonard and 226 00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:42,840 Speaker 1: I've gone back to The earliest piece I have is 227 00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:46,520 Speaker 1: fifteen oh seven. Attempt to play it right now. So 228 00:14:47,080 --> 00:14:49,480 Speaker 1: from learning, how do you get from loot to a 229 00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:53,040 Speaker 1: modern guitar? What are the intervening steps? You're dealing with 230 00:14:53,720 --> 00:14:56,880 Speaker 1: the basic concept of an instrument with a long neck 231 00:14:56,920 --> 00:15:00,760 Speaker 1: and frets and strings. I mean, that's that's a kind 232 00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:04,640 Speaker 1: of generic instrument. It's in organology, which is a study 233 00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:07,440 Speaker 1: of instruments, is that's a long necked loot, even if 234 00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:12,320 Speaker 1: it's not actually like the bowl backed loot of the Renaissance. 235 00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:15,920 Speaker 1: So there are various other instruments that kind of developed 236 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:19,720 Speaker 1: parallel with it. The earliest guitar you get is the 237 00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:24,760 Speaker 1: earliest illustration is about four five that far back well, 238 00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:28,320 Speaker 1: and they go back earlier, but they're not specifically guitar. 239 00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:34,360 Speaker 1: There gitterns and citterns and similar instruments. But in the Renaissance, 240 00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:38,120 Speaker 1: the loot was the dominant instrument, except in Spain, which 241 00:15:38,360 --> 00:15:41,720 Speaker 1: had the vihuela, which looked like a guitar but was 242 00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:43,840 Speaker 1: actually strung like a loot, and and all you have 243 00:15:43,920 --> 00:15:49,320 Speaker 1: to do change one string and you're in you're in 244 00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:55,480 Speaker 1: lute tuning, whereas you know that's guitar tuning. I mean 245 00:15:55,560 --> 00:15:58,840 Speaker 1: it's it's so you can play those kinds of pieces. 246 00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:03,880 Speaker 1: It evolved from the Renaissance, which was small instrument, almost 247 00:16:03,920 --> 00:16:07,800 Speaker 1: like a ukulele. The Baroque guitar added an extra string, 248 00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:10,200 Speaker 1: so you went from four strings or four courses because 249 00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:15,720 Speaker 1: they were double strategy, to five, and then roundabout sevent 250 00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:18,880 Speaker 1: eighty you get to the six string guitar. So the 251 00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:22,760 Speaker 1: modern guitar really dates from there. But but you can 252 00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:25,880 Speaker 1: track the history of fretted instruments that were played with 253 00:16:25,920 --> 00:16:29,120 Speaker 1: the fingers going back even to the medieval ere. I mean, 254 00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:32,680 Speaker 1: there's there was a john the looter was was on 255 00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:36,120 Speaker 1: the royal roles in England getting four shillings a week 256 00:16:36,640 --> 00:16:39,120 Speaker 1: in like twelve eighty five. I mean it goes back 257 00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:43,480 Speaker 1: that far. The professional looter, the professional from the from 258 00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:47,680 Speaker 1: the royal court. That that's fascinating. So you mentioned earlier 259 00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:53,800 Speaker 1: that the space for creators of all types is getting 260 00:16:53,880 --> 00:16:56,160 Speaker 1: hemmed in and shrinking a little bit. How are we 261 00:16:56,240 --> 00:17:00,560 Speaker 1: seeing that manifest itself in minor times. Well, the main 262 00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:04,320 Speaker 1: manifestation of it is the way that sampling has has 263 00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:09,560 Speaker 1: kind of created this collaborative, collective environment for writing it, 264 00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:12,679 Speaker 1: which is why you might see a dozen writers on 265 00:17:12,760 --> 00:17:17,040 Speaker 1: a song, because sometimes the songs are just created in 266 00:17:17,080 --> 00:17:21,040 Speaker 1: a very um fractional way where somebody will write the hook, 267 00:17:21,080 --> 00:17:23,360 Speaker 1: and then somebody else will write the verse, and and 268 00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:27,080 Speaker 1: maybe a producer or two will come up with beats, 269 00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:30,480 Speaker 1: and it's you know, so all those elements are now 270 00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:33,600 Speaker 1: embedded in the copyright. It used to be that it 271 00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:36,680 Speaker 1: was simply melody and lyrics, and that's still what the 272 00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:40,760 Speaker 1: law says. But the convention since hip hop, really the 273 00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:44,800 Speaker 1: convention is that if you contribute to the the actual track, 274 00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:48,239 Speaker 1: that that gives you a writer share. But a lot 275 00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:51,840 Speaker 1: of the people that are doing that aren't musicians. They 276 00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:57,880 Speaker 1: know how to manipulate sounds, but they're not necessarily musical producers, engineers, 277 00:17:58,119 --> 00:18:01,199 Speaker 1: anyone who's well engineers typically don't get part of that, 278 00:18:01,280 --> 00:18:04,760 Speaker 1: but they will be in the Music Modernization Act, they're 279 00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:09,439 Speaker 1: going to create a royalty for producers and for engineers. 280 00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:13,440 Speaker 1: But if it's anything like what the musicians get from 281 00:18:13,480 --> 00:18:16,160 Speaker 1: the sound Exchange side of it. As a session musician, 282 00:18:16,680 --> 00:18:22,320 Speaker 1: there's five is devoted to the background people as opposed 283 00:18:22,359 --> 00:18:27,320 Speaker 1: to to the record label to the performer. But the 284 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:30,560 Speaker 1: way that that gets tracked is very difficult because sound 285 00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:32,960 Speaker 1: exchange you can only learn it from either the meta 286 00:18:33,080 --> 00:18:37,359 Speaker 1: information that goes in the spreadsheet that's submitted with the recording, 287 00:18:38,359 --> 00:18:40,800 Speaker 1: or they get it from the Musicians Union, from the 288 00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:45,720 Speaker 1: musicians Union contracts, but very few records go through the union. 289 00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:48,879 Speaker 1: You know, the union is much stronger on the TV 290 00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:51,359 Speaker 1: a movie side of things than it is on the 291 00:18:51,359 --> 00:18:53,679 Speaker 1: record side of things. Why do you think that is 292 00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:56,680 Speaker 1: having it's well, it's part of it is the nature 293 00:18:56,680 --> 00:18:59,000 Speaker 1: of the way records are made. And part of it 294 00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:00,719 Speaker 1: is if you're going to put together they're an orchestra 295 00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:03,240 Speaker 1: to play on a movie, you really need to have 296 00:19:03,320 --> 00:19:06,440 Speaker 1: the union involved in that. Because there are scales, there's 297 00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:10,399 Speaker 1: you know, which is why producers have been going to 298 00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:15,399 Speaker 1: Prague and to Budapest and to you know, Seattle to 299 00:19:15,520 --> 00:19:18,800 Speaker 1: do stuff nonunion, because they don't then have to deal 300 00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:21,320 Speaker 1: with the other ramification of it, which is what I 301 00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:24,919 Speaker 1: mentioned earlier, which is the secondary markets fund, where they 302 00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:29,600 Speaker 1: resent having to give this minute portion to the musicians. 303 00:19:29,720 --> 00:19:32,520 Speaker 1: Even though the teams just get their share and you know, 304 00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:35,040 Speaker 1: the other unions get their share, the musicians have always 305 00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:38,679 Speaker 1: been kind of backled off to the side. Yeah, that 306 00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:41,879 Speaker 1: that's fascinating. But but in terms of the creative space, 307 00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:45,720 Speaker 1: I just think that there are certain generic sequences that 308 00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:49,400 Speaker 1: are built into music making, and at some point if 309 00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:54,119 Speaker 1: you start to to make those copyrightable, then you really 310 00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:56,879 Speaker 1: limit what can be done. Let's talk a little bit 311 00:19:56,880 --> 00:20:01,320 Speaker 1: about some of the unusual tunings that you do that 312 00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:04,960 Speaker 1: allow you to play things that a regular guitar really 313 00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:08,639 Speaker 1: can't play. And during the break you moved over to 314 00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:12,800 Speaker 1: dad gad tuning. What does dad gad do that the 315 00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:18,440 Speaker 1: regular standard guitar tuning doesn't allow. Well, this is dad goad, 316 00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:26,400 Speaker 1: which gives me three D strings and to a strings 317 00:20:27,119 --> 00:20:30,679 Speaker 1: energy string, which means that for one thing. I have 318 00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:37,879 Speaker 1: the kind of sound of octaves that is like a 319 00:20:38,119 --> 00:20:41,200 Speaker 1: twelve almost like a twelve string. And then because there 320 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:43,600 Speaker 1: are two adjacent scale tones, a G and an A, 321 00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:52,000 Speaker 1: that gives me the opportunity to do these kind of 322 00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:59,399 Speaker 1: cascading patterns, which actually, interestingly enough, it is one of 323 00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:02,960 Speaker 1: the things that's characteristic of baroque guitar because on the 324 00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:06,360 Speaker 1: barroke guitar, like on a ukulele, the bottom two strings 325 00:21:06,359 --> 00:21:09,000 Speaker 1: were often tuned up an octave, so you get this 326 00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:13,720 Speaker 1: kind of cross fingering where where like things can sustain 327 00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:19,360 Speaker 1: so instead of gives it a different kind of texture. 328 00:21:19,720 --> 00:21:25,119 Speaker 1: But I just found that it's great for articulating pop songs. Really, 329 00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:27,680 Speaker 1: you want me to play something I mentioned earlier, I 330 00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:32,440 Speaker 1: mentioned Runaway as being an example of the Andalusian cadence. 331 00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:39,480 Speaker 1: That's that's wonderful. And for people who are just listening 332 00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:44,680 Speaker 1: to this and not viewing it, you're simultaneously playing the melody, 333 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:48,159 Speaker 1: the vocals, and the background with them all at the 334 00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:51,160 Speaker 1: same time. There's no overdubs. This is live. You just 335 00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:54,680 Speaker 1: basically pulled the guitar out and started playing that. We're 336 00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:57,359 Speaker 1: not we're not running multiple loops around, which is what 337 00:22:57,440 --> 00:23:02,880 Speaker 1: finger style guitar is. It's the reality to play all 338 00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:06,080 Speaker 1: the parts because you're using the sum and you know, 339 00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:10,720 Speaker 1: typically through the three principal right hand fingers, and then 340 00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:16,200 Speaker 1: being in that tuning also gives me the capability of 341 00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:19,560 Speaker 1: of allowing some of the middle the inner parts to 342 00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:25,399 Speaker 1: work more more resonantly than they than they would in 343 00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:28,080 Speaker 1: standard tuning. And that's because you have the three G 344 00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:30,760 Speaker 1: it's part of it, it's part of it. It's just 345 00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:34,560 Speaker 1: it's and it's a suspended tuning, whereas standard tuning is 346 00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:37,560 Speaker 1: actually kind of an E minor tuning, so it kind 347 00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:41,600 Speaker 1: of is more self defining. Whereas with that gadded there's there. 348 00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:44,400 Speaker 1: You don't have a major third in the tuning. That's 349 00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:47,280 Speaker 1: the beauty of standard tuning is it does have that 350 00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:51,000 Speaker 1: third in it, which makes major chords actually flow in 351 00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:53,600 Speaker 1: a very interesting fashion. And you go back again to 352 00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:56,840 Speaker 1: the Baroque and they had a system where they laid 353 00:23:56,840 --> 00:23:59,359 Speaker 1: out all the chords and you could learn how to 354 00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:02,639 Speaker 1: play rhythm guitar strung guitar just by following this what 355 00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:07,320 Speaker 1: they called alphabeto system and you learn the shapes, and 356 00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:10,360 Speaker 1: Dad add it's not really about shapes for me, it's 357 00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:14,600 Speaker 1: it's that's the discovery mechanism used to find the inner 358 00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:18,359 Speaker 1: workings of the song within that tune. You've described it 359 00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:24,200 Speaker 1: as a vertical approach as opposed to a horizontal approach. Yeah, 360 00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:28,480 Speaker 1: because the I'm looking at what's happening on every particular 361 00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:32,760 Speaker 1: beat rather than a very like a more linear kind 362 00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:37,480 Speaker 1: of approach. So because I'm trying to developed like a richness, 363 00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:41,199 Speaker 1: bring out the scenarity of the guitar so that it 364 00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:44,720 Speaker 1: doesn't the sound doesn't die, but keeps going, so that 365 00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:47,520 Speaker 1: it has its own internal life. So how does that 366 00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:52,000 Speaker 1: compare with other instruments such as a piano, where you 367 00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:54,520 Speaker 1: pretty much have every note right there in front of 368 00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:57,119 Speaker 1: there you go, you know, it's the the whole spectrum 369 00:24:57,160 --> 00:24:58,639 Speaker 1: is right there in front of you on the piano. 370 00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:00,760 Speaker 1: On the guitar, you have to have kind of a 371 00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:04,080 Speaker 1: virtual piano in your head at least the spectrum that 372 00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:06,720 Speaker 1: you know the spectrum instruments. And this is something that 373 00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:09,720 Speaker 1: I try and encourage music teachers to understand is that 374 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:16,320 Speaker 1: their guitar players are actually more musically cognizant then than 375 00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:19,520 Speaker 1: the piano players. Maybe because on the guitar you really 376 00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:22,280 Speaker 1: have to understand. If you really want to advance with it, 377 00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:24,840 Speaker 1: you have to understand how the notes relate to each other. 378 00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:27,280 Speaker 1: Whereas on the piano you can pretty much just look 379 00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:31,399 Speaker 1: at the fingering patterns and just follow that. Um. But 380 00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:34,199 Speaker 1: if you want to really do something original on the guitar, 381 00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:40,919 Speaker 1: then it's understanding it's musical capabilities. Um. You said something 382 00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:43,520 Speaker 1: earlier I have to circle back to because it was 383 00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:47,600 Speaker 1: it was so fascinating on streaming. I believe it was. 384 00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:50,880 Speaker 1: When you're doing a cover song, you get paid more 385 00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:54,400 Speaker 1: than the original composition, not It depends on how much 386 00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:58,000 Speaker 1: it gets played. For example, this week, my number one 387 00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:04,080 Speaker 1: play on Pandora is stand by Me. Um, and you 388 00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:10,760 Speaker 1: know usually it's my Christmas music. Yeah, Um, but I 389 00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:12,399 Speaker 1: did a cover of it. In fact, got used in 390 00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:15,879 Speaker 1: a Dabers Diamond commercial some times ago, which was kind 391 00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:18,800 Speaker 1: of a nice license fee for that. So the commercial 392 00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:21,400 Speaker 1: license fees are more well that's yeah, that's a whole 393 00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:25,080 Speaker 1: different piece of business. But but what I mean by 394 00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:28,600 Speaker 1: the fact is that cover tunes tend to get more attention. 395 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:32,560 Speaker 1: I mean, and also Christmas stuff because that's of the 396 00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:37,280 Speaker 1: entire music market is really that's astonishing, and people listen 397 00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:40,320 Speaker 1: to that stuff all year round too, And I was 398 00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:44,600 Speaker 1: very lucky in so far as my early stuff got 399 00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:48,320 Speaker 1: into the Pandora ecosystem. Now it's much harder to get 400 00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:52,280 Speaker 1: in um, but you know, stuff creeps in. But but 401 00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:54,640 Speaker 1: it's it's only in terms of I mean, the amount 402 00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:58,560 Speaker 1: that one makes for the play as a performer doesn't 403 00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:01,359 Speaker 1: matter whether it's original or a cover tune. And and 404 00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:03,679 Speaker 1: the amount that I make as a writer on the 405 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:07,960 Speaker 1: original stuff is not of any great consequence compared with 406 00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:11,159 Speaker 1: what I make as a performer. But cover tunes the 407 00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:14,000 Speaker 1: same thing with iTunes. Cover tunes just get more attention 408 00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:16,639 Speaker 1: so they'll capture. And you know that's fascinating because I 409 00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:20,160 Speaker 1: have a pet theory about cover songs, and it's simply 410 00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:23,879 Speaker 1: a note for note. Cover song, especially for something we 411 00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:28,560 Speaker 1: know as well as the Beatles, is pointless because why 412 00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:30,920 Speaker 1: do I need to hear the identical version someone else 413 00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:33,920 Speaker 1: has done. On the other hand, most of the ones 414 00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:37,520 Speaker 1: that are really far out in right field, it doesn't 415 00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:41,440 Speaker 1: even sound like the original song. Maybe Joe Cocker's get 416 00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:44,040 Speaker 1: By with Little Help from My Friend is is the 417 00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:47,560 Speaker 1: the outlier there. But what I've always loved about your 418 00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:52,720 Speaker 1: cover work is it's immediately recognizable as the underlying song, 419 00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:56,760 Speaker 1: but it's such a different version of it that it 420 00:27:56,840 --> 00:27:59,640 Speaker 1: makes it fresh and interesting. So I would imagine your 421 00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:04,080 Speaker 1: cover songs would do really well on on iTunes. Well, 422 00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:07,080 Speaker 1: that's the art of it really is. For me, it's 423 00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:12,080 Speaker 1: it's to take the familiar and do something slightly unfamiliar 424 00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:15,720 Speaker 1: with and that's where you know, using these alter tunings 425 00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:19,600 Speaker 1: and just bringing my sensibility to it on the guitar. 426 00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:21,439 Speaker 1: And there are plenty of tunes that I won't do 427 00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:24,960 Speaker 1: because I don't feel that I can make enough of 428 00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:28,840 Speaker 1: a difference with to justify doing that. So they end up, 429 00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:30,359 Speaker 1: you know, they have to be there has to be 430 00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:35,840 Speaker 1: something special about them, and there's always in the process, 431 00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:38,760 Speaker 1: Like when I was doing Strawberry Fields Forever, and it 432 00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:49,240 Speaker 1: was just the fact that um and just get that scenarity. 433 00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:05,880 Speaker 1: You know, it works espec she You can't do that 434 00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:08,880 Speaker 1: in standards, you but the way that it works on 435 00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:12,800 Speaker 1: the guitar just puts it into its own creative space. 436 00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:16,320 Speaker 1: And that's what I'm looking for as an artist is 437 00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:20,240 Speaker 1: can I make a contribution. Can I do something that 438 00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:25,000 Speaker 1: gives people maybe a different perspective on a familiar company. 439 00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:27,880 Speaker 1: Well that was my experience with as a look. I 440 00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:32,840 Speaker 1: grew up a huge Beatle fan. Heartbroken Outcomes. Wings has 441 00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:36,520 Speaker 1: a handful of fun songs Uncle Uncle, Admiral what is 442 00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:41,920 Speaker 1: it Admiral, Uncle Albert, Admiral Halls and Uncle Albert, and 443 00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:43,720 Speaker 1: then there were a lot of sort of poppy love 444 00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:48,040 Speaker 1: songs that I didn't yeah to say the least. But 445 00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:54,520 Speaker 1: your Um Wings album is very revealing of some lovely 446 00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:59,840 Speaker 1: nuances when one Wing that I completely missed the first 447 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:03,600 Speaker 1: time I heard them as Paul McCartney. But the under 448 00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:07,200 Speaker 1: your version, the song's really breathe and come to life, 449 00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:13,320 Speaker 1: I think, you know, bringing a musical sensibility to so 450 00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:17,440 Speaker 1: I'm not just simply doing kind of a like a reproduction, right, 451 00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:21,760 Speaker 1: it's not a note for note identical, getting inside basically 452 00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:27,920 Speaker 1: um kind of really trying to rewrite it from from 453 00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:30,360 Speaker 1: the inside out. And there there's a I Forget the 454 00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:33,800 Speaker 1: Borgers novel where there's a character who whose mission is 455 00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:39,200 Speaker 1: to rewrite don Quixote, but not just to copy it, 456 00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:42,640 Speaker 1: but to actually like imagine it from the ground up 457 00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:45,440 Speaker 1: and have it be exact exactly the same. And it's 458 00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:49,240 Speaker 1: it's not quite that because I'm not trying to recreate 459 00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:52,880 Speaker 1: it in that respect, but just to reinterpret it, to 460 00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:55,200 Speaker 1: to do it in a way that brings some fresh 461 00:30:55,240 --> 00:31:00,000 Speaker 1: perspective to you reveal a musicality to some of those songs. 462 00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:04,040 Speaker 1: Is that I think for your original version either doesn't 463 00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:07,520 Speaker 1: emphasize or or you're just not hearing it in the 464 00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:10,840 Speaker 1: rock and roll version. And I think that's an important 465 00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:15,680 Speaker 1: point in terms of the way in which existing copyrights 466 00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:19,400 Speaker 1: can be utilized. You know, when I mean, let's face that, 467 00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:22,080 Speaker 1: you know, the whole copyright, I think the mechanical license 468 00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:26,000 Speaker 1: came out of Graham Phone Records, and Graham Phone Records 469 00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:29,520 Speaker 1: came out of print publishing. I mean they sold records 470 00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:33,960 Speaker 1: in order to sell sheep music, right. Um, But when 471 00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:37,480 Speaker 1: you think about how many different versions of songs existed 472 00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:40,320 Speaker 1: in that time period that you know, somebody would do 473 00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:42,560 Speaker 1: a song and then there would be half a dozen 474 00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:45,200 Speaker 1: covers of it. You know, different artists would do it, 475 00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:48,200 Speaker 1: and it was very common for different artists to do songs. 476 00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:50,200 Speaker 1: And then you get to the beatle area, you get 477 00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:54,320 Speaker 1: to the sixties and rock music, pop music as as 478 00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:59,080 Speaker 1: an art form, which is unique to those artists, and 479 00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:02,800 Speaker 1: and that that went away, that you didn't get three 480 00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:05,120 Speaker 1: different versions of the same song on the charts at 481 00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:09,200 Speaker 1: the same time, you just had that one definitive version. UM. 482 00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:12,200 Speaker 1: And I think that there's there's a very rich heritage 483 00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:17,200 Speaker 1: of music to draw on to re reinvigorate. For example, 484 00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:21,320 Speaker 1: I've always so when you talk about the earlier period, um, 485 00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:24,840 Speaker 1: you're referring to what on this side of the Atlantic 486 00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:28,720 Speaker 1: we call the Great American Songbook, which is everybody from 487 00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:32,840 Speaker 1: La Fitzrael to Frank Sinatra and earlier to early being crosspech. 488 00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:36,240 Speaker 1: I mean you're still you know, mid twenties is still 489 00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:39,479 Speaker 1: in copyright. I mean the early twenties is now you know, 490 00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:43,680 Speaker 1: is now ours? What is it ninety years? I think 491 00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:46,240 Speaker 1: it is. Whatever it is, it's it's now at the 492 00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:48,360 Speaker 1: point where you know some of the Great American song 493 00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:51,440 Speaker 1: But the early Irving Berlin stuff, for example, you know, 494 00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:55,000 Speaker 1: Alexander's Ragtime Band is public domain, and the irony is 495 00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:59,240 Speaker 1: the sixties and seventies changed that and then you ended 496 00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:02,160 Speaker 1: up with a lot of those artists doing the Great 497 00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:07,640 Speaker 1: American song Book, whether it's rod it's circled full fall around, 498 00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:10,800 Speaker 1: and so I refer to it as the Great Anglo 499 00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:13,760 Speaker 1: American Songs Book at this point, because when I was 500 00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:17,360 Speaker 1: growing up in the sixties, the thirties was only thirty 501 00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:21,840 Speaker 1: years earlier. You go back thirty years from now and 502 00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:29,000 Speaker 1: you're in what the nineties, um and going back to 503 00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:32,920 Speaker 1: you know what, I guess the Great American Songbook is 504 00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:36,080 Speaker 1: a cannon. Like the classical cannon is a cannon, and 505 00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:42,040 Speaker 1: we have a rock cannon too. I mean, you know, 506 00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:44,840 Speaker 1: Layla is part of the rock canon. The Beatles is 507 00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:46,760 Speaker 1: part of the rock cannon. And that it's not that 508 00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:49,400 Speaker 1: means it's not going to go away, and and and 509 00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:53,600 Speaker 1: it's it is a rich vein of reinterpretation. Maybe you're 510 00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:56,120 Speaker 1: a string quartet and you do layla, you know, you can, 511 00:33:56,520 --> 00:34:01,600 Speaker 1: you can cross fertilize those kinds of genres. So do 512 00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:04,960 Speaker 1: you think the music of that era, the sixties and 513 00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:08,200 Speaker 1: seventies and beyond, is going to have the same sort 514 00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:12,719 Speaker 1: of staying power as we've seen in the twenties, thirties, forties. 515 00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:18,120 Speaker 1: I think I think it will. I think it does certainly. 516 00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:21,719 Speaker 1: You know, there's always a certain amount of attrition, and 517 00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:25,319 Speaker 1: there are certain gems that kind of just fell off 518 00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:29,040 Speaker 1: the radar for really, Look, I just discovered Margot Gourian. 519 00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:33,520 Speaker 1: For example, you you look at me quisitely. Margot Gouryan 520 00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:41,000 Speaker 1: was kind of if you could combine Brian Wilson with 521 00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:46,640 Speaker 1: a strud Gilberto in a power pop context. She had 522 00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:51,120 Speaker 1: a very breathy voice. She wrote very kind of psychedelic 523 00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:58,000 Speaker 1: influenced pop songs. Oliver had a hit with Someng of 524 00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:00,839 Speaker 1: her Sunday Morning back in Oh sure, yeah, but that's 525 00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:03,080 Speaker 1: one of her songs. She made one album and then 526 00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:06,719 Speaker 1: quit the business. But I just discovered her music and 527 00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:09,640 Speaker 1: it's it's like very cool. And that's one great thing 528 00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:14,200 Speaker 1: about the streaming environment is how much music you can 529 00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:19,319 Speaker 1: discover and how you can curate your own musical Have 530 00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:23,160 Speaker 1: you have you worked out any Margot songs yet? So 531 00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:27,000 Speaker 1: I'm right now I'm working on a bunch of standards, 532 00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:32,160 Speaker 1: actually my own great American songbook stuff that I'm working on. 533 00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:34,280 Speaker 1: So you'll have you'll have to give us a sample 534 00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:37,200 Speaker 1: before before the morning's over. Well maybe when the next 535 00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:39,200 Speaker 1: when that album comes out, I'll come and give you 536 00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:44,200 Speaker 1: some samples. So so, given given the changes that we've 537 00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:48,280 Speaker 1: seen in music in modern era with hip hop and sampling, 538 00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:51,760 Speaker 1: what does it mean to somebody who earns their living 539 00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:56,680 Speaker 1: playing a live strings instrument. It doesn't go away. I 540 00:35:56,719 --> 00:36:01,480 Speaker 1: mean those things coexist and you know, it'll see my daughter, 541 00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:03,920 Speaker 1: you know, the songwriter. I mean, she's been on plenty 542 00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:07,920 Speaker 1: of sessions where it's guys sitting around with laptops, you know, 543 00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:12,240 Speaker 1: creating beats. But she's right now working with Mark Ronson, 544 00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:16,920 Speaker 1: who's one of the great contemporary guys. And it's very organic. 545 00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:20,440 Speaker 1: You sit down and play drums on, you know, on 546 00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:26,080 Speaker 1: the song. Um. That's that's that combination of the tech 547 00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:28,560 Speaker 1: side of things with the organic side of things. I 548 00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:32,920 Speaker 1: think is is where it's where the vitality is in 549 00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:37,200 Speaker 1: all of it. That there's a lot of talent out there. Um, 550 00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:39,840 Speaker 1: but you just want to make sure that you don't 551 00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:47,640 Speaker 1: have the kind of copyright restrictions that inhibit the creativity. 552 00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:49,840 Speaker 1: You know. It's one thing to listen to a motown 553 00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:53,279 Speaker 1: record to kind of gather the groove of that. It's 554 00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:57,040 Speaker 1: another thing to then get sued because you've taken a 555 00:36:57,080 --> 00:37:01,120 Speaker 1: groove that really is is not a copy writable at 556 00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:05,960 Speaker 1: the time, wasn't a copyrightable entity. Um. So Wall of 557 00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:09,560 Speaker 1: Sound is not copyrightable, or at least has a will. 558 00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:11,759 Speaker 1: The sound is just a lot of reverb, you know, 559 00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:14,399 Speaker 1: it's a lot of reverb on top of reverb, and 560 00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:16,640 Speaker 1: and it's a lot of musicians. I mean on a 561 00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:18,680 Speaker 1: Phil Spector session, you got to the chorus, if you 562 00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:22,160 Speaker 1: needed more piano, you brought in another piano player. You know. 563 00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:24,200 Speaker 1: Now you you know, you know that was when they 564 00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:26,239 Speaker 1: were working on four track. Now you can, you know, 565 00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:30,320 Speaker 1: you can overdub the second piano or whatever. But um, 566 00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:32,920 Speaker 1: but the technology is great. I mean I just did 567 00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:36,600 Speaker 1: a track with Marcy Levy, who's a friend of mine, 568 00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:39,799 Speaker 1: who neighbor, who used to work with Eric Clapton and 569 00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:42,080 Speaker 1: was in a bank called Shakespeare's Sister in England who 570 00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:46,080 Speaker 1: had some big hits there, and she she gave me 571 00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:49,640 Speaker 1: a logic file like an Apple logic file that I 572 00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:53,840 Speaker 1: then transferred like put into pro Tools and then started 573 00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:57,600 Speaker 1: fooling around with and added some guitar and change the arrangement. 574 00:37:57,600 --> 00:37:59,320 Speaker 1: And then we went in the studio on Monday with 575 00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:02,640 Speaker 1: Klem Burke from Blondie playing drums and walked out with 576 00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:06,360 Speaker 1: a record, you know. And so that technology is great 577 00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:10,640 Speaker 1: because it's not as limited as it used to be 578 00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:14,719 Speaker 1: where we were working with tape and now the plugins 579 00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:17,239 Speaker 1: have really evolved to the point where you can get 580 00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:20,680 Speaker 1: a very analog sound out of the digit digital environment. 581 00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:22,279 Speaker 1: Can you stick around a little bit. I have a 582 00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:24,480 Speaker 1: ton more questions and and I'd love to get a 583 00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:27,480 Speaker 1: couple of a couple more songs out of you. We 584 00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:33,440 Speaker 1: have been speaking with Lawrence Juber, guitarist extraordinaire and recording artists. 585 00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:36,000 Speaker 1: If you enjoy this conversation, be sure and come back 586 00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:38,480 Speaker 1: and check out our podcast extras, where we keep the 587 00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:44,000 Speaker 1: tape rolling and continue discussing all things musicology. We love 588 00:38:44,120 --> 00:38:48,600 Speaker 1: your comments, feedback, end suggestions right to us at m 589 00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:52,040 Speaker 1: IB podcast at Bloomberg dot net. Check out my daily 590 00:38:52,040 --> 00:38:54,319 Speaker 1: column on Bloomberg dot com. You can follow me on 591 00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:58,320 Speaker 1: Twitter at Dholts. I'm Barry Hults. You're listening to Masters 592 00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:15,680 Speaker 1: in Business on Bloomberg Video. Welcome to the podcast, Lawrence. 593 00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:17,600 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for doing this. I always enjoy 594 00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:21,240 Speaker 1: when you come into town. And this will broadcast after 595 00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:24,480 Speaker 1: um we've recorded this, but I'm gonna see you tonight 596 00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:28,399 Speaker 1: at the cutting room, which is always a lovely place 597 00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:30,319 Speaker 1: to see. Cool place. Yeah, it's kind of It's a 598 00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:36,720 Speaker 1: nice intimate place. I've seen enough um shows in places 599 00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:40,040 Speaker 1: where you're so far away from the performer and everybody's 600 00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:43,160 Speaker 1: a tiny person and you happen to have a charming 601 00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:46,520 Speaker 1: uh rapport with the audience. Thank you you all, but 602 00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:49,680 Speaker 1: take questions. We went to see Paul Simon of the 603 00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:52,520 Speaker 1: Hollywood Bowl last week. I saw him when he started 604 00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:55,640 Speaker 1: the tour last year in Forest Hills. He put on 605 00:39:55,680 --> 00:39:58,840 Speaker 1: a very interesting show, fun show, fourteen piece band, m 606 00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:02,200 Speaker 1: great right back, he does ringo, was sitting right in 607 00:40:02,239 --> 00:40:04,400 Speaker 1: front of us. Really, I hadn't seen him in a 608 00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:06,960 Speaker 1: long time. Oh, that must have been fun he um. 609 00:40:07,360 --> 00:40:10,319 Speaker 1: Someone described this as pretty much his his last stur 610 00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:13,200 Speaker 1: He said, uh, his voice is going, and he said 611 00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:15,040 Speaker 1: he's this isn't gonna be you know, it didn't sound 612 00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:17,720 Speaker 1: like it. I mean, he was still in great shape. 613 00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:21,439 Speaker 1: I thought any any old Simon and Garfuncle songs did? 614 00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:24,840 Speaker 1: I mean? He did Homework Bound, He did um Sounds 615 00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:29,360 Speaker 1: of Silent opened with America. Yeah. So, I don't know 616 00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:33,680 Speaker 1: if you know the band Aztec two steps. So they 617 00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:40,160 Speaker 1: do a version of the Simon and garf Uncle's songbook 618 00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:45,600 Speaker 1: based on the print book that a DJ named Pete 619 00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:50,520 Speaker 1: for Natale wrote. I was interviewed by him was um, 620 00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:53,759 Speaker 1: he passed away a w N. Yeah, that's right, w 621 00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:57,840 Speaker 1: anyw in New York. And so he created this this 622 00:40:57,920 --> 00:41:00,839 Speaker 1: book about He wrote a book about them, and they 623 00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:05,800 Speaker 1: subsequently adapted it and with with um images and streaming 624 00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:09,080 Speaker 1: video and other stuff, they're basically telling this Simon and 625 00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:13,160 Speaker 1: garf uncle story through their music. It was really quite um, 626 00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:18,319 Speaker 1: quite fascinating. And I through that show, I discovered a 627 00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:20,239 Speaker 1: guy who was one of the and I'm drawing a 628 00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:22,160 Speaker 1: blank on his name, it will come into my mind, 629 00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:26,000 Speaker 1: who was one of the original writers for Saturday Live, 630 00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:31,520 Speaker 1: who has written on Curb Your Enthusiasm and uh and 631 00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:35,399 Speaker 1: and basically tells the story of the Boxer in his 632 00:41:36,160 --> 00:41:39,000 Speaker 1: in a novel. In a book he wrote about someone 633 00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:42,600 Speaker 1: in a college poetry class submitting the Boxer as his 634 00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:46,680 Speaker 1: final exam and it's just utterly and the teacher believes it, 635 00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:51,600 Speaker 1: and it's just utterly a hilarious, hilarious story. So so 636 00:41:51,719 --> 00:41:55,880 Speaker 1: let's get back to music in a way from literature. Um, 637 00:41:56,080 --> 00:42:00,640 Speaker 1: you you do a lot of really interesting things. UM, 638 00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:02,879 Speaker 1: And I was just really curious, what are you working 639 00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:05,120 Speaker 1: on these days? What do you think is is going 640 00:42:05,160 --> 00:42:07,279 Speaker 1: to come out? Next you. You always have a few 641 00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:11,919 Speaker 1: albums in the well. I've got this folio I'm doing 642 00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:14,520 Speaker 1: for how Landed on the evolution of fingerstyle guitar, which 643 00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:18,280 Speaker 1: goes really from the Renaissance through to the early twentieth century. 644 00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:21,040 Speaker 1: I got some ragtime in there, and it goes through 645 00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:24,200 Speaker 1: what we would call classical guitar. And what I'm trying 646 00:42:24,200 --> 00:42:28,440 Speaker 1: to do is bridge the gap between classical and steel string, 647 00:42:29,040 --> 00:42:33,080 Speaker 1: because from my perspective, there is no schism, no real 648 00:42:33,120 --> 00:42:35,680 Speaker 1: schism there. What is the ear of classical and what 649 00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:42,040 Speaker 1: is the ear of steel string? They coexist. Um the 650 00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:44,880 Speaker 1: what we like the players that we look to as 651 00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:47,720 Speaker 1: being kind of like the founding fathers of classical guitar, 652 00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:53,560 Speaker 1: like Giuliani and saw Umkuruly, Carcassie, those like early nineteenth 653 00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:58,320 Speaker 1: century players, we're really just playing fingerstyle guitar. They didn't 654 00:42:58,320 --> 00:43:01,480 Speaker 1: call it classical guitar, and in fact, you know, it's 655 00:43:01,600 --> 00:43:04,080 Speaker 1: it's you have to be careful because we have classical 656 00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:07,000 Speaker 1: in the pure generic sense. But when you talk about 657 00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:11,319 Speaker 1: musical eras classical is a very specific period pretty much 658 00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:17,239 Speaker 1: kind of seventeen fifties through eight twenty, you know, and 659 00:43:17,360 --> 00:43:21,880 Speaker 1: Beethoven kind of straddled both classical and Romantic eras. By 660 00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:25,640 Speaker 1: the time you get to the twenties and beyond, you're 661 00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:29,360 Speaker 1: into the Romantic era and the and the classical cannon. 662 00:43:29,920 --> 00:43:32,800 Speaker 1: The whole concept of classical music being something for a 663 00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:36,359 Speaker 1: kind of an elite social group really evolved in the 664 00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:40,000 Speaker 1: eighteen twenties or the early certainly the early nineties had 665 00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:42,560 Speaker 1: What was the change at the end of that, Well, 666 00:43:43,520 --> 00:43:45,839 Speaker 1: look what happened politically, I mean, you have as as 667 00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:48,319 Speaker 1: the monarch is, you know that the impact of the 668 00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:54,080 Speaker 1: monarchers was dissolving, that the civil service became much more 669 00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:58,320 Speaker 1: you know that upper middle class bourgeois became much less 670 00:43:59,160 --> 00:44:05,160 Speaker 1: underneath a monarch, especially well well France. But also you 671 00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:08,440 Speaker 1: know it's specifically, I mean, Vienna was really the hotbed 672 00:44:08,480 --> 00:44:12,880 Speaker 1: of of of musical development in that respect. So you 673 00:44:12,920 --> 00:44:16,040 Speaker 1: go from kind of Hyding to Beethoven to Schubert. You know, 674 00:44:16,360 --> 00:44:19,680 Speaker 1: Schubert was a guitar player, really, yeah, apparently he wrote 675 00:44:19,680 --> 00:44:22,799 Speaker 1: most of his songs on guitar. Dia Belie published them 676 00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:26,560 Speaker 1: on piano because that was the commercial market, but guitar 677 00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:29,960 Speaker 1: was extremely popular. There was guitar mania in Europe in 678 00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:35,839 Speaker 1: the early nineteenth century. But so, but they weren't classical 679 00:44:35,880 --> 00:44:39,719 Speaker 1: guitar players in the stylistic sense. We look at them 680 00:44:39,719 --> 00:44:43,600 Speaker 1: as classical in the genre that we describe as classical, 681 00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:48,600 Speaker 1: but really they were fingerstyle players from my perspective. And 682 00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:51,239 Speaker 1: and what happens by the middle of the nineteenth century, 683 00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:55,000 Speaker 1: the guitar loses popularity because the piano has become such 684 00:44:55,040 --> 00:44:59,960 Speaker 1: a dominant instrument. But in America, the guitar became very popular. 685 00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:04,560 Speaker 1: Guitar and banjo were extremely popular. Um, and so kind 686 00:45:04,560 --> 00:45:08,560 Speaker 1: of the focus shifts to that, and there were great 687 00:45:08,560 --> 00:45:11,040 Speaker 1: players and a lot of them played Martin guitars too. 688 00:45:11,080 --> 00:45:13,200 Speaker 1: I mean Martin was really kind of the instrument of 689 00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:17,600 Speaker 1: choice of the American what they called parlor music, and 690 00:45:17,840 --> 00:45:20,920 Speaker 1: that's not a derogatory term. Parla music is really light 691 00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:26,640 Speaker 1: classical music and a very specifically kind of middle class 692 00:45:27,040 --> 00:45:30,240 Speaker 1: kind of musical experience. Of course, there was no recorded music, 693 00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:33,000 Speaker 1: so you would play in the parlor. You would play 694 00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:35,200 Speaker 1: the piano if you could afford one, or a guitar 695 00:45:35,239 --> 00:45:39,359 Speaker 1: if you couldn't afford a piano, or sometimes both. Um. 696 00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:43,799 Speaker 1: So there's a continuity about all of this. But my 697 00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:46,600 Speaker 1: argument is you don't have to look at it through 698 00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:52,400 Speaker 1: the Segovia paradigm. Sgia, well, Segovia bought the gravitas to 699 00:45:52,520 --> 00:45:55,400 Speaker 1: the to the promotion of the instrument that allowed it 700 00:45:55,440 --> 00:45:59,400 Speaker 1: to exist in the classical concert hall. But guitar was 701 00:45:59,560 --> 00:46:02,960 Speaker 1: guitar music was played in all kinds of concert environments 702 00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:07,600 Speaker 1: before enduring sago VIA's era, and and in the twentieth 703 00:46:07,600 --> 00:46:11,160 Speaker 1: century in America, you get steel strings came into play 704 00:46:11,200 --> 00:46:15,160 Speaker 1: because gut strings were very unreliable, and nylon really didn't 705 00:46:15,160 --> 00:46:19,000 Speaker 1: get used for guitar strings till the nineteen fourties, um, 706 00:46:19,640 --> 00:46:23,320 Speaker 1: and so, but the stylistic aspect of it tended to 707 00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:26,520 Speaker 1: gravitate much more towards jazz and blues and everything else. 708 00:46:26,600 --> 00:46:29,120 Speaker 1: But but my argument is that if you want to 709 00:46:29,160 --> 00:46:32,239 Speaker 1: understand the music, you don't have to be restricted to 710 00:46:32,239 --> 00:46:34,880 Speaker 1: be playing on a nylon string guitar with you know, 711 00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:37,640 Speaker 1: with your left left leg up on a footstool and 712 00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:40,040 Speaker 1: the guitar in a very specific position that you can 713 00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:43,759 Speaker 1: you can play this music on any guitar. And and 714 00:46:43,840 --> 00:46:51,000 Speaker 1: you know, so like Bach doesn't have to be played 715 00:46:51,040 --> 00:46:54,239 Speaker 1: on a nylon string guitar at all. So I'm kind 716 00:46:54,280 --> 00:46:56,440 Speaker 1: of gearing what I'm doing in that respect with this 717 00:46:56,560 --> 00:47:00,440 Speaker 1: folio to steel string players. So what is a folio? 718 00:47:00,520 --> 00:47:02,080 Speaker 1: How do you? How do you do folio? It's just 719 00:47:02,120 --> 00:47:04,640 Speaker 1: a collection of sheep music. I mean, you know it's 720 00:47:04,680 --> 00:47:06,400 Speaker 1: a book. Are you going to put it out in 721 00:47:06,520 --> 00:47:09,160 Speaker 1: musical version as well? Well? I'm going to do an 722 00:47:09,160 --> 00:47:11,640 Speaker 1: album to go along with it, which is a challenge 723 00:47:11,680 --> 00:47:14,280 Speaker 1: because I have to learn all these Renaissance and Baroque 724 00:47:14,320 --> 00:47:17,920 Speaker 1: loop pieces and some fairly heavy duty kind of classical stuff. 725 00:47:17,960 --> 00:47:19,960 Speaker 1: I have confidence that you'll be able to do that. 726 00:47:20,040 --> 00:47:22,720 Speaker 1: I have confidence as well too. But at the same time, 727 00:47:23,160 --> 00:47:28,960 Speaker 1: I'm also working on a collection of standards American Anglo Americans, 728 00:47:29,440 --> 00:47:33,480 Speaker 1: mostly American. I mean, for example, Jimmy McHugh not familiar, 729 00:47:33,560 --> 00:47:43,759 Speaker 1: not familiar, you know his songs Sure, I can't give 730 00:47:43,760 --> 00:47:46,960 Speaker 1: you anything but love written just down the street, you know, 731 00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:50,319 Speaker 1: it's just in He and Dorothy Fields were walking down 732 00:47:50,360 --> 00:47:54,719 Speaker 1: Fifth Avenue and overheard this is, you know, depths of 733 00:47:54,760 --> 00:47:57,439 Speaker 1: the Depressure actually late twenties. It was like right after 734 00:47:57,480 --> 00:48:01,239 Speaker 1: the stock market crash, and they hear over here a 735 00:48:02,320 --> 00:48:05,239 Speaker 1: young guy talking to his girlfriend looking in the the 736 00:48:05,320 --> 00:48:07,480 Speaker 1: window at Tiffan is saying, I can't give you anything 737 00:48:07,520 --> 00:48:13,640 Speaker 1: but love. Baby. And although there is a theory that 738 00:48:13,640 --> 00:48:16,719 Speaker 1: that fat Swaller had something to do with it musically too, 739 00:48:16,800 --> 00:48:22,560 Speaker 1: and sold them his contribution, the Tiffany story sounds much 740 00:48:22,600 --> 00:48:26,560 Speaker 1: more romantic. It's very romantic. Yeah, um yeah, he wrote 741 00:48:26,600 --> 00:48:29,839 Speaker 1: I'm in the mood for love. He um. He was 742 00:48:29,920 --> 00:48:32,239 Speaker 1: actually wiped out by the stock market crash and was 743 00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:34,520 Speaker 1: walking down the street here in Manhattan and ran into 744 00:48:34,560 --> 00:48:37,279 Speaker 1: George Gershwin, and Gershwin said, can I you know, do 745 00:48:37,280 --> 00:48:39,720 Speaker 1: you need anything? And he said I could use a piano. 746 00:48:40,280 --> 00:48:43,400 Speaker 1: So Gershwin gave him a piano. Well, really, his grandson 747 00:48:43,640 --> 00:48:47,920 Speaker 1: Lee still has in his office in um piano Well 748 00:48:47,960 --> 00:48:53,160 Speaker 1: gersh Well, Jimmy mccugh's piano donated um. And the first 749 00:48:53,200 --> 00:48:54,759 Speaker 1: thing he wrote on that was I'm in the mood 750 00:48:54,760 --> 00:48:56,719 Speaker 1: for love, which you know, put him back on his feet. 751 00:48:57,239 --> 00:49:00,319 Speaker 1: I would say, so so, so who else do you look? Yet? 752 00:49:00,480 --> 00:49:04,520 Speaker 1: As you know the Great So many years ago, I 753 00:49:04,560 --> 00:49:09,560 Speaker 1: got a gift from somebody which was Ella Fitzgerald sings 754 00:49:09,560 --> 00:49:13,120 Speaker 1: the Great American Song and I think it's something like 755 00:49:13,200 --> 00:49:16,400 Speaker 1: sixteen or twenty six c ds, and each c D 756 00:49:16,960 --> 00:49:21,560 Speaker 1: or so is a different song writer, so it's Gershwin. Um, 757 00:49:21,600 --> 00:49:24,560 Speaker 1: and Berlin and Jerome currents and go down the whole 758 00:49:25,000 --> 00:49:27,800 Speaker 1: the whole list. I think Berlin is is two songs, 759 00:49:27,920 --> 00:49:30,839 Speaker 1: two discs, and Gershwin might be for discs, but it's 760 00:49:30,880 --> 00:49:34,279 Speaker 1: just one after another and it's every fantastic. So how 761 00:49:34,320 --> 00:49:37,920 Speaker 1: do you take that enormous collection. It's just great music, 762 00:49:38,080 --> 00:49:42,080 Speaker 1: just favorite songs and stuff that just feels right on 763 00:49:42,160 --> 00:49:47,719 Speaker 1: the guitar um, you know, I like Bernstein, I mean, like, 764 00:49:47,880 --> 00:50:05,480 Speaker 1: you know, it just fits on the guitar sis shortly 765 00:50:05,600 --> 00:50:08,960 Speaker 1: and and and and the original is an E which is, 766 00:50:08,960 --> 00:50:12,640 Speaker 1: you know, a very guitaristic key um. So stuff like that. 767 00:50:13,080 --> 00:50:15,279 Speaker 1: I'm just not sure. I know that there's there's gonna 768 00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:18,520 Speaker 1: be a music book to go along with that too. 769 00:50:18,680 --> 00:50:22,239 Speaker 1: So how how these end up getting released in terms 770 00:50:22,280 --> 00:50:24,680 Speaker 1: of whether it's just going to be a digital release 771 00:50:25,600 --> 00:50:28,759 Speaker 1: or whether it's going to be a c D. C 772 00:50:28,920 --> 00:50:32,080 Speaker 1: Ds are really only useful for show merchandise at this 773 00:50:32,120 --> 00:50:34,960 Speaker 1: point because people don't buy c D s. I'm one 774 00:50:35,000 --> 00:50:37,719 Speaker 1: of the few. I am now old enough that I 775 00:50:37,760 --> 00:50:41,239 Speaker 1: have a big boy audio system that I wish I 776 00:50:41,280 --> 00:50:44,880 Speaker 1: had when I was nineteen, And when a CD that 777 00:50:44,960 --> 00:50:48,120 Speaker 1: i'm particularly and amor with comes out, I pop it 778 00:50:48,160 --> 00:50:52,000 Speaker 1: in and I didn't rather buy it on vinyl though, No, 779 00:50:52,200 --> 00:50:55,240 Speaker 1: because I'm too irresponsible to take care of a record 780 00:50:55,280 --> 00:50:57,840 Speaker 1: in the proper way. The CD, I just feed it 781 00:50:57,880 --> 00:51:01,160 Speaker 1: into the Vinyl sounds so much better if you don't 782 00:51:01,160 --> 00:51:04,200 Speaker 1: have scratches, pops hissing, if you take care of it 783 00:51:04,520 --> 00:51:07,239 Speaker 1: and it's one gram vinyl and you know you keep 784 00:51:07,239 --> 00:51:11,240 Speaker 1: it clean and that listen, vinyl is selling these days. 785 00:51:11,360 --> 00:51:13,960 Speaker 1: I don't have the patients or the storage for it. 786 00:51:14,120 --> 00:51:18,399 Speaker 1: I did an album about ten actually more than ten 787 00:51:18,480 --> 00:51:22,239 Speaker 1: years ago now, um Guitar Noir. There was for a 788 00:51:22,400 --> 00:51:26,760 Speaker 1: I X Records, which was a high resolution DVD audio project. 789 00:51:27,400 --> 00:51:30,760 Speaker 1: So that is a great sounding project. That's an album 790 00:51:30,880 --> 00:51:33,520 Speaker 1: and a song if I remember correct that I wrote 791 00:51:33,560 --> 00:51:36,200 Speaker 1: that song is like the title track for that particular prop. 792 00:51:36,280 --> 00:51:41,200 Speaker 1: It's a few seconds the right and wrong tune. That's 793 00:51:41,520 --> 00:51:44,239 Speaker 1: that's a C G d G a D t UM. 794 00:51:44,960 --> 00:51:49,400 Speaker 1: So that you know that high end audio thing. I 795 00:51:49,400 --> 00:51:51,920 Speaker 1: mean it's in fact, you you go into a like 796 00:51:51,960 --> 00:51:55,120 Speaker 1: an audio file store, and you'll probably see them playing 797 00:51:55,160 --> 00:51:58,160 Speaker 1: it because it gets used. For damn, I want a 798 00:51:58,239 --> 00:52:02,440 Speaker 1: demi award. What the hell's the demi award? What demos 799 00:52:02,560 --> 00:52:06,280 Speaker 1: for Yeah, the consumer electronics people have this Demi Award, 800 00:52:06,280 --> 00:52:09,480 Speaker 1: which is, you know, stuff that's great for demoing expensive equipment. 801 00:52:09,600 --> 00:52:12,919 Speaker 1: That that's really interesting. The my Store of Choices, Park 802 00:52:13,000 --> 00:52:16,799 Speaker 1: Avenue Audio, UM, and I always bring these CDs and 803 00:52:16,840 --> 00:52:19,319 Speaker 1: I'm so excited to use and I put them on 804 00:52:19,400 --> 00:52:23,680 Speaker 1: these hundred thousand analysis systems and they sound terrible. Next 805 00:52:23,760 --> 00:52:27,279 Speaker 1: time you go in the awesome if they have, I'm 806 00:52:27,320 --> 00:52:31,680 Speaker 1: sure they will. Now I have the regular CD of 807 00:52:31,719 --> 00:52:35,240 Speaker 1: Guitar and Noir. Is that something? Now? There's a track 808 00:52:35,480 --> 00:52:39,120 Speaker 1: on um My Wooden Horses CD that I did a 809 00:52:39,160 --> 00:52:42,319 Speaker 1: solo version of it. But the but the real, the 810 00:52:42,360 --> 00:52:46,040 Speaker 1: real version to listen to is the one, the mosaic 811 00:52:46,120 --> 00:52:49,000 Speaker 1: track on that UM actually got license by I think 812 00:52:49,000 --> 00:52:51,960 Speaker 1: it was Pioneer licensed it for the discs that came 813 00:52:52,000 --> 00:52:56,920 Speaker 1: with the in car Super High. Fine, that's quite interesting. 814 00:52:57,320 --> 00:52:59,440 Speaker 1: So I only have you for a finite amount of 815 00:53:00,000 --> 00:53:04,000 Speaker 1: I'm let me get my uh my new I got 816 00:53:04,040 --> 00:53:08,080 Speaker 1: a new phone just for for you today. Isn't that nice? Um? Yes, 817 00:53:08,200 --> 00:53:12,040 Speaker 1: I'm gonna allow myself to log in. What do you 818 00:53:12,040 --> 00:53:16,000 Speaker 1: feel like playing today? Oh? I have no idea. I'm 819 00:53:16,040 --> 00:53:18,719 Speaker 1: in standard tuning, you know, what No, you're in dad, No, 820 00:53:18,800 --> 00:53:21,040 Speaker 1: I'm in standard. You went back let me, I'll do, 821 00:53:21,200 --> 00:53:23,000 Speaker 1: I'll do. I can't give you anything but love because 822 00:53:23,200 --> 00:53:29,480 Speaker 1: I have to be in that mode. You ready, Nope? Um, 823 00:53:29,520 --> 00:56:14,239 Speaker 1: all right, we're recording Cool Cool Boy the Delightful. So 824 00:56:14,360 --> 00:56:17,320 Speaker 1: I'm gonna put this down now. So here's the question 825 00:56:17,719 --> 00:56:22,440 Speaker 1: that is very much related to the process of turning 826 00:56:22,480 --> 00:56:28,120 Speaker 1: what was once a classical American songbook, really great American 827 00:56:28,120 --> 00:56:33,759 Speaker 1: songbook type of tune into an acoustic guitar piece. Take 828 00:56:33,920 --> 00:56:37,759 Speaker 1: us through how you you go through that transition? Well, 829 00:56:37,800 --> 00:56:41,160 Speaker 1: with that one, it really was just to just make 830 00:56:41,200 --> 00:56:46,000 Speaker 1: it musical and adding to that the notion that I'm 831 00:56:46,040 --> 00:56:50,360 Speaker 1: really pushing myself to improvise mall. So you know, I 832 00:56:50,400 --> 00:56:53,319 Speaker 1: state the same and then I'm improvising, and I'm just 833 00:56:53,480 --> 00:56:55,759 Speaker 1: kind of trying to keep myself on a particular kind 834 00:56:55,800 --> 00:56:59,360 Speaker 1: of track with that. But I mean, there's there's the 835 00:56:59,440 --> 00:57:04,040 Speaker 1: concept we have of of um alternate bass where you 836 00:57:04,560 --> 00:57:07,920 Speaker 1: and this goes back really like to then what they 837 00:57:07,960 --> 00:57:10,720 Speaker 1: call Kentucky thumb picking, like Mel Travis and then Shad 838 00:57:10,719 --> 00:57:16,200 Speaker 1: Atkins Atkins Mel Travis before my this kind of idea 839 00:57:16,240 --> 00:57:22,920 Speaker 1: that so there's always this kind of this is kind 840 00:57:22,920 --> 00:57:26,280 Speaker 1: of like rolling thing going on to create the accompaniments, 841 00:57:26,320 --> 00:57:29,760 Speaker 1: so making that work and keeping a groove going, but 842 00:57:29,840 --> 00:57:36,560 Speaker 1: also looking for kind of voicings. No trammelo bar the 843 00:57:36,680 --> 00:57:43,200 Speaker 1: virtual you're using it with your arm instead of looking 844 00:57:43,240 --> 00:57:46,439 Speaker 1: for that kind of stuff. And it's a standard tuning. Yeah, 845 00:57:46,440 --> 00:57:48,200 Speaker 1: I'm in standard tuning. But what I'm doing there, like 846 00:57:48,760 --> 00:57:54,560 Speaker 1: I'm using open strings. Do you get these kind of 847 00:57:54,680 --> 00:58:02,240 Speaker 1: interesting dissonances? You know, so stuff like that, you know, stand, 848 00:58:02,240 --> 00:58:05,200 Speaker 1: I'm kind of pushing myself to do more in standard tuning, 849 00:58:05,680 --> 00:58:08,080 Speaker 1: to bring into it stuff that I've learned from being 850 00:58:08,080 --> 00:58:11,160 Speaker 1: in auto tuning, you know, just again just trying to 851 00:58:11,520 --> 00:58:15,640 Speaker 1: push the envelope to be to stay on my game. 852 00:58:16,320 --> 00:58:19,360 Speaker 1: What what sort of songs have from that song book 853 00:58:19,400 --> 00:58:23,240 Speaker 1: have you've been looking at um to include in the 854 00:58:23,280 --> 00:58:26,960 Speaker 1: following Let's see right now. And these won't necessarily make 855 00:58:27,000 --> 00:58:32,360 Speaker 1: the final cut, but you know, Limehouse Blues, Um, George 856 00:58:32,360 --> 00:58:38,240 Speaker 1: Sharing's Lullaby of Birdland or um. You know, not a 857 00:58:38,280 --> 00:58:42,640 Speaker 1: standard tuner. No, some of this stuff is in dadad Summertime, 858 00:58:44,240 --> 00:58:48,400 Speaker 1: Foggy Day in London Town, which I'm particularly fond of 859 00:58:48,440 --> 00:58:51,600 Speaker 1: because that was when I was born was foggy day 860 00:58:51,600 --> 00:59:00,880 Speaker 1: in London town. Um and um misty uh, Willow weep 861 00:59:01,000 --> 00:59:05,400 Speaker 1: for me. It's a great song. Yeah. I mean I've 862 00:59:05,440 --> 00:59:07,240 Speaker 1: done you know, in the past, I've done things like 863 00:59:07,280 --> 00:59:10,720 Speaker 1: crimea River and George I love the Julie London version 864 00:59:10,760 --> 00:59:15,560 Speaker 1: of crimea River. Well, yeah, Hamilton's like that he wrote 865 00:59:15,560 --> 00:59:19,360 Speaker 1: the song. Yeah, and Bonnie Castle's playing guitar on that. 866 00:59:21,920 --> 00:59:24,520 Speaker 1: The request has come for do you know Wicked Game 867 00:59:24,600 --> 00:59:27,360 Speaker 1: by Chris Isaac. It's way too late for way too 868 00:59:27,480 --> 00:59:47,880 Speaker 1: late for me, would be like, so you're giving Willow 869 00:59:47,920 --> 00:59:50,680 Speaker 1: a very bluesy flavor. Well, it is a bluesy song, 870 00:59:50,880 --> 00:59:53,120 Speaker 1: is it, because the way you hear it in the 871 00:59:53,120 --> 01:00:01,080 Speaker 1: traditional arrangement isn't quite that bluesy. Yeah, I'm I tend 872 01:00:01,120 --> 01:00:05,080 Speaker 1: to want to make things blues um. Yeah, but like 873 01:00:07,840 --> 01:00:10,800 Speaker 1: I see now, for example, there, I'm in B flat 874 01:00:11,440 --> 01:00:14,040 Speaker 1: right and I'm in Dad Dad at least I would 875 01:00:14,040 --> 01:00:18,760 Speaker 1: be if I was properly in tune, and you don't 876 01:00:18,800 --> 01:00:22,720 Speaker 1: even bother with the the other two. And I've got 877 01:00:22,720 --> 01:00:27,440 Speaker 1: this one stuck on the end of the guitarity. Oh 878 01:00:27,480 --> 01:00:31,120 Speaker 1: there we are, okay, So you get these voice things 879 01:00:59,120 --> 01:01:02,160 Speaker 1: stuff like that. It sounds like it was written for guitar. Well, 880 01:01:02,200 --> 01:01:04,000 Speaker 1: that's why I try and do is make it sound 881 01:01:04,120 --> 01:01:10,840 Speaker 1: natural on the instrument. Actually, so I couldn't. Yeah, just 882 01:01:11,560 --> 01:01:15,400 Speaker 1: playing around thinking somewhat pianistically with that. So do you 883 01:01:15,480 --> 01:01:19,360 Speaker 1: go out and listen to different versions of these songs? Yeah, 884 01:01:19,800 --> 01:01:22,000 Speaker 1: so let me make it. It's handy for that. Apple 885 01:01:22,120 --> 01:01:23,960 Speaker 1: music is handy for that. So let me make a 886 01:01:24,000 --> 01:01:29,040 Speaker 1: recommendation for summertime. We may have discussed this previously. There 887 01:01:29,160 --> 01:01:32,560 Speaker 1: is a young woman named Renee Olsted who was an 888 01:01:32,600 --> 01:01:37,000 Speaker 1: actor on a sitcom whose name escapes me at the moment, 889 01:01:37,440 --> 01:01:41,440 Speaker 1: and she does she was like sixteen or seventeen, and 890 01:01:41,480 --> 01:01:46,360 Speaker 1: it's one of those far too mature for her year's version. 891 01:01:46,560 --> 01:01:49,640 Speaker 1: That's like wow, when you get a moment listen to 892 01:01:49,680 --> 01:01:53,040 Speaker 1: that because it just and she adds a little bit 893 01:01:53,080 --> 01:01:57,360 Speaker 1: of a slinky blues vibe to it that you know 894 01:01:57,600 --> 01:02:01,760 Speaker 1: that that isn't in the LA version. Is I mean 895 01:02:01,800 --> 01:02:06,320 Speaker 1: what I'm doing with summertime? Should I be recording this? No? 896 01:02:07,000 --> 01:02:08,240 Speaker 1: I mean I'm just going to give you a little 897 01:02:08,280 --> 01:02:13,560 Speaker 1: example working see this. Actually this is the katana, then 898 01:02:13,640 --> 01:03:21,440 Speaker 1: this is the gaitan wha tuning, right, but summertime. Um, 899 01:03:21,480 --> 01:03:24,440 Speaker 1: that kind of appropriate. That's got a really bluesy flavor, 900 01:03:24,960 --> 01:03:28,439 Speaker 1: much smokier than well, when you hear when you hear 901 01:03:28,560 --> 01:03:32,080 Speaker 1: a a someone really belt it out, it doesn't quite 902 01:03:32,120 --> 01:03:36,440 Speaker 1: have the same smokey vibe. But you know, my reference, 903 01:03:36,720 --> 01:03:41,000 Speaker 1: my kind of cross reference is like early Fleetwood Mac. Okay, 904 01:03:42,760 --> 01:03:45,760 Speaker 1: you know, I'm thinking, how would Peter greenplay this? Right? 905 01:03:51,280 --> 01:03:55,720 Speaker 1: You know that kind of and also, um, what else 906 01:03:55,760 --> 01:03:59,960 Speaker 1: have I been? Um? I only have eyes for you. Okay, 907 01:04:00,000 --> 01:04:11,640 Speaker 1: another grade that's in this tuning, hang on, have to 908 01:04:11,680 --> 01:04:35,240 Speaker 1: remember it. See I'm thinking, I'm thinking almost like Revel, 909 01:05:06,720 --> 01:05:10,440 Speaker 1: you get the idea and totally but it's so totally works. 910 01:05:10,960 --> 01:05:14,320 Speaker 1: You know. I think we've talked about Derrick Thompson's book 911 01:05:14,440 --> 01:05:17,520 Speaker 1: last time you were here, How Hits Happen. It's not 912 01:05:17,560 --> 01:05:21,720 Speaker 1: just about music, It's about music, books, architecture, engineering, And 913 01:05:21,800 --> 01:05:24,960 Speaker 1: he's fond of pointing out that if you want to 914 01:05:25,000 --> 01:05:28,080 Speaker 1: sell something different, you have to make it familiar, and 915 01:05:28,120 --> 01:05:30,080 Speaker 1: if you want to sell something familiar, you have to 916 01:05:30,080 --> 01:05:34,360 Speaker 1: make it a little different. And and it's um, I 917 01:05:34,360 --> 01:05:37,120 Speaker 1: pick up a lot of that that the melody is 918 01:05:37,200 --> 01:05:41,840 Speaker 1: totally recognizable, the melody is key, but everything around it 919 01:05:41,880 --> 01:05:46,520 Speaker 1: is totally different. Now what tuning were you in here? 920 01:05:47,760 --> 01:06:04,080 Speaker 1: Hang on? Uh? Now the Jimmy Mcue song. You see 921 01:06:04,080 --> 01:06:09,360 Speaker 1: what I look for? Is that kind of just that 922 01:06:09,560 --> 01:06:17,040 Speaker 1: very musical kind of but also the guitaristic thing how 923 01:06:17,080 --> 01:06:27,640 Speaker 1: everything rings. And then something like this, Well it's dissonant, 924 01:06:28,480 --> 01:07:08,440 Speaker 1: but in a cool way. Uh, hang on, that's it. 925 01:07:09,080 --> 01:07:11,280 Speaker 1: Of course you can't hear. You can't see this on 926 01:07:11,360 --> 01:07:15,960 Speaker 1: the radio. I can, and it's way cool doing two 927 01:07:16,000 --> 01:07:19,840 Speaker 1: hands on the neck, a little little Eddie van Halen 928 01:07:19,920 --> 01:07:26,840 Speaker 1: action on the Yeah, easy on, Easier on electric than 929 01:07:26,960 --> 01:07:32,680 Speaker 1: on the coup, but you can still do it. It's 930 01:07:32,720 --> 01:07:34,680 Speaker 1: just you know, what I like doing is is that 931 01:07:34,800 --> 01:07:38,720 Speaker 1: kind of is doing the two handed thing, but to 932 01:07:38,840 --> 01:07:45,680 Speaker 1: get a rhythmic propulsion to it, it's not the same. No, 933 01:07:45,880 --> 01:07:55,280 Speaker 1: not a lot. That's pretty fascinating. What so when do 934 01:07:55,280 --> 01:07:58,080 Speaker 1: you think, um, the American Standards album is coming out 935 01:07:58,640 --> 01:08:00,880 Speaker 1: next year? Probably really so how long does it take 936 01:08:00,920 --> 01:08:03,280 Speaker 1: to put something like that? Well, it's it's a question of, 937 01:08:04,440 --> 01:08:10,560 Speaker 1: you know, the timing as far as coordinating it, you know, 938 01:08:09,920 --> 01:08:14,640 Speaker 1: and my distributor, because I have my own record label now, 939 01:08:15,120 --> 01:08:18,519 Speaker 1: my distribution needs two months later time on a release. 940 01:08:19,560 --> 01:08:22,040 Speaker 1: I always reckon you're gonna at least have three months 941 01:08:22,880 --> 01:08:26,000 Speaker 1: to record, and you know, and I've been working on 942 01:08:26,040 --> 01:08:28,120 Speaker 1: these arrangements for a couple of some of these for 943 01:08:28,160 --> 01:08:29,720 Speaker 1: a couple of years. That was a question, is how 944 01:08:29,760 --> 01:08:32,959 Speaker 1: long does it take it actually come up with the arrangement? Depends? 945 01:08:33,160 --> 01:08:35,920 Speaker 1: I mean when I my Runaway arrangement took me about 946 01:08:35,960 --> 01:08:41,360 Speaker 1: ten minutes. What takes sometimes, what takes longer. Sometimes they 947 01:08:41,400 --> 01:08:59,120 Speaker 1: just take time. I mean like Limehouse Blues, I still 948 01:08:59,160 --> 01:09:01,599 Speaker 1: don't know, but that's even going to make the cut. 949 01:09:01,720 --> 01:09:04,040 Speaker 1: And that's probably been one I'm working on longer than 950 01:09:04,040 --> 01:09:07,280 Speaker 1: anything else. I've done it in standard tuning, in different keys. 951 01:09:07,320 --> 01:09:09,280 Speaker 1: I've done it and dad getting different keys, and it's 952 01:09:09,320 --> 01:09:13,559 Speaker 1: just I'm not yet convinced by it. Um, But it's 953 01:09:13,560 --> 01:09:17,960 Speaker 1: an interesting exercise. You're not yet convinced by the song. 954 01:09:18,080 --> 01:09:21,840 Speaker 1: That's I'm not yet convinced by the arrangement because it 955 01:09:21,880 --> 01:09:28,559 Speaker 1: could be and whether it's swung or whether I don't 956 01:09:32,760 --> 01:09:34,720 Speaker 1: done as a Latin thing or you know, there's there's 957 01:09:34,800 --> 01:09:38,400 Speaker 1: arranging tricks. You you can change the groove for change 958 01:09:38,479 --> 01:09:41,000 Speaker 1: the feel, and it's just I'm not sure with that one. 959 01:09:41,120 --> 01:09:45,960 Speaker 1: But um, and we'll see how it all evolves. I mean, 960 01:09:46,040 --> 01:09:48,439 Speaker 1: I've got some original tunes that I want to get 961 01:09:48,479 --> 01:09:53,639 Speaker 1: recorded to. I wasn't intending that the um the stuff 962 01:09:53,680 --> 01:09:56,400 Speaker 1: with all the renaissance loop music and the ragtime, you know, 963 01:09:56,400 --> 01:09:59,840 Speaker 1: it goes through like Scott Joplin, and I wasn't int 964 01:10:00,080 --> 01:10:02,880 Speaker 1: ending that was going to be kind of a releasable album. 965 01:10:03,000 --> 01:10:05,800 Speaker 1: But as the project evolved, it kind of, well, this 966 01:10:05,840 --> 01:10:09,320 Speaker 1: is kind of an interesting combination of tunes. I wonder, 967 01:10:09,479 --> 01:10:12,920 Speaker 1: you know, so when you're when you're the history of 968 01:10:12,920 --> 01:10:17,840 Speaker 1: of that has to span centuries, but when you're looking 969 01:10:17,880 --> 01:10:20,720 Speaker 1: at something that's only a few decades, I know that 970 01:10:20,760 --> 01:10:24,000 Speaker 1: sounds ridiculous to say that's only a few decades. You 971 01:10:24,120 --> 01:10:28,160 Speaker 1: still have I want to say, hundreds of songs, certainly 972 01:10:28,240 --> 01:10:30,200 Speaker 1: dozens and does. I mean, there's a million of them. 973 01:10:30,200 --> 01:10:32,280 Speaker 1: But it's just what, you know, what I sit down 974 01:10:32,320 --> 01:10:34,519 Speaker 1: and play and it's like, oh, that's kind of cool. 975 01:10:34,520 --> 01:10:37,519 Speaker 1: And then if Hope likes it, my wife because she 976 01:10:37,560 --> 01:10:40,160 Speaker 1: doesn't like it, you know, kind of well then then 977 01:10:40,200 --> 01:10:42,160 Speaker 1: I can't really practice it in front of her, which 978 01:10:42,200 --> 01:10:44,840 Speaker 1: kind of inhibits the process of it. But you know, 979 01:10:44,880 --> 01:10:55,000 Speaker 1: I just came up with an arrangement Great Songs. Funny 980 01:10:55,000 --> 01:10:58,080 Speaker 1: Tony Hatch wrote that on the Corner of Broadway. He 981 01:10:58,160 --> 01:11:01,320 Speaker 1: came up with the hook on the corner of Broadway 982 01:11:01,600 --> 01:11:04,200 Speaker 1: Street on his first trip to New York, not realizing 983 01:11:04,240 --> 01:11:09,400 Speaker 1: that that's not well, Midtown isn't quite as catching. Yeah, 984 01:11:09,439 --> 01:11:13,960 Speaker 1: so that's a cool song. Does it end up being 985 01:11:14,000 --> 01:11:16,680 Speaker 1: the great Anglo American songbook? I don't know. You know, 986 01:11:16,840 --> 01:11:19,599 Speaker 1: we'll see. Well, it's certainly from that sixties pop era. 987 01:11:20,320 --> 01:11:25,719 Speaker 1: You could release an album a decade if you wanted 988 01:11:25,760 --> 01:11:29,639 Speaker 1: to find stuff. It might be too similar across within 989 01:11:29,680 --> 01:11:32,240 Speaker 1: that each decade. But from a business point of view, 990 01:11:32,280 --> 01:11:34,360 Speaker 1: I mean that, you know, my goal is to just 991 01:11:34,600 --> 01:11:38,080 Speaker 1: kind of put a lot of stuff out there, because 992 01:11:38,120 --> 01:11:41,800 Speaker 1: if it's out there in the streaming environment, then it 993 01:11:41,880 --> 01:11:47,280 Speaker 1: can be revenue creating without necessarily having to be heavily promoted. Um, 994 01:11:47,320 --> 01:11:50,120 Speaker 1: we just did a re release. Hope used to have 995 01:11:50,280 --> 01:11:53,320 Speaker 1: a group UM in the eighties and early nineties called 996 01:11:53,320 --> 01:11:55,800 Speaker 1: the Housewives, which was a comedy rock and roll group, 997 01:11:55,840 --> 01:11:58,240 Speaker 1: and they were ABC had a morning show called The 998 01:11:58,240 --> 01:12:00,960 Speaker 1: Home Show Way Back, and they were regulars on that 999 01:12:01,040 --> 01:12:03,080 Speaker 1: and they got a lot of TV exposs of a 1000 01:12:03,080 --> 01:12:06,960 Speaker 1: great name for a and the album's called Get the 1001 01:12:07,000 --> 01:12:12,360 Speaker 1: Dirt Yea and its songs like call a Repairman, Um, 1002 01:12:12,520 --> 01:12:15,759 Speaker 1: ironing Board, I've been defrosting all day, which has a 1003 01:12:15,880 --> 01:12:18,639 Speaker 1: killer harmonica solo from John Mayle, who I wish him 1004 01:12:18,640 --> 01:12:22,000 Speaker 1: well because he's in the hospital right now. Um. And 1005 01:12:22,400 --> 01:12:26,400 Speaker 1: Maggie Mayle, John's ex wife was was in the band 1006 01:12:26,840 --> 01:12:30,719 Speaker 1: and Maggie may and Maggie Mayle okay as in John Mayle, 1007 01:12:30,800 --> 01:12:35,000 Speaker 1: but um and by the way, Maggie may is another 1008 01:12:35,040 --> 01:12:38,639 Speaker 1: one of those songs that is the Gregory Walker passa 1009 01:12:38,680 --> 01:12:43,280 Speaker 1: Mets and Moderno sequence that actually earlier Yeah, um and 1010 01:12:44,720 --> 01:12:48,320 Speaker 1: um that just came out, you know, and it's kind 1011 01:12:48,360 --> 01:12:50,200 Speaker 1: of like, you know, hoping it's going to get airplay 1012 01:12:50,280 --> 01:12:55,240 Speaker 1: on Spotify, Pandora maybe serious on comedy because it's a 1013 01:12:55,240 --> 01:12:58,760 Speaker 1: comedy record really um. And then earlier this year I 1014 01:12:58,840 --> 01:13:02,360 Speaker 1: put out Standard Time, which is my first album that 1015 01:13:02,400 --> 01:13:06,799 Speaker 1: had never been released digitally, which was also some Standards, 1016 01:13:06,800 --> 01:13:09,160 Speaker 1: some great American songbook stuff, but out of Paul McCann 1017 01:13:09,320 --> 01:13:12,000 Speaker 1: is publishing catalog. He asked me to record stuff out 1018 01:13:12,040 --> 01:13:14,080 Speaker 1: of it. So it did Stormy Weather with a forty 1019 01:13:14,080 --> 01:13:17,600 Speaker 1: piece orchestra, very cool version of that. In fact, that 1020 01:13:17,680 --> 01:13:21,799 Speaker 1: stuff is really hi fi sounding. Um. And it includes 1021 01:13:21,840 --> 01:13:25,519 Speaker 1: my first fingerstyle composition which is un called Mazie that 1022 01:13:25,640 --> 01:13:28,640 Speaker 1: I actually had like Paul playing bass on because you know, 1023 01:13:28,640 --> 01:13:31,519 Speaker 1: we recorded it on a Wing session one day. That's 1024 01:13:31,520 --> 01:13:33,599 Speaker 1: pretty cool. So what was the name of that album? 1025 01:13:33,760 --> 01:13:36,559 Speaker 1: That's called Standard Time. So that's your first and my 1026 01:13:36,680 --> 01:13:39,080 Speaker 1: very first, which is not a finger style guitar record 1027 01:13:39,120 --> 01:13:41,439 Speaker 1: except for a couple of pieces that are on their 1028 01:13:41,840 --> 01:13:45,920 Speaker 1: mostly released digitally. It's a digital, full digital. It's never 1029 01:13:45,960 --> 01:13:49,400 Speaker 1: been released in its entirety except as a bonus CD 1030 01:13:49,479 --> 01:13:52,519 Speaker 1: with my book Guitar with Wings, which was not like 1031 01:13:52,560 --> 01:13:56,720 Speaker 1: a CD release. Um. And I always kind of like 1032 01:13:56,880 --> 01:14:00,439 Speaker 1: never felt truly comfortable with it being on c D 1033 01:14:00,720 --> 01:14:05,000 Speaker 1: because it's such high fi quality. It was so well recorded, 1034 01:14:05,400 --> 01:14:08,360 Speaker 1: and that was also used for demoing equipment back you know, 1035 01:14:08,400 --> 01:14:11,960 Speaker 1: way back that somebody borrowed the tapes from from Abbey 1036 01:14:12,040 --> 01:14:15,639 Speaker 1: Road Studios and ended up using them at trade shows 1037 01:14:15,680 --> 01:14:20,640 Speaker 1: to demonstrate tape recorders. That's interesting. So I only have 1038 01:14:20,760 --> 01:14:22,760 Speaker 1: you for a few more minutes, Why don't we do 1039 01:14:22,880 --> 01:14:27,920 Speaker 1: one more? So long? Okay, um, before before some guy 1040 01:14:28,000 --> 01:14:30,439 Speaker 1: Mike comes in and kicks us out of here, Let's 1041 01:14:30,439 --> 01:14:39,160 Speaker 1: see if I can find um. All right, I got 1042 01:14:39,320 --> 01:14:42,920 Speaker 1: this on video, so whenever you want to start, this 1043 01:14:43,000 --> 01:14:48,400 Speaker 1: is Catch. The title was inspired by Catcherizing Star, which 1044 01:14:48,400 --> 01:17:20,519 Speaker 1: is where I met Hope in April. Go go, I 1045 01:17:20,640 --> 01:17:27,080 Speaker 1: love it? So um I okay, so we have we 1046 01:17:27,120 --> 01:17:29,400 Speaker 1: have a only a few more minutes left in the 1047 01:17:29,439 --> 01:17:34,400 Speaker 1: peanut gallery? Is uh requesting different songs? What did you 1048 01:17:34,439 --> 01:17:37,680 Speaker 1: ask for before classical gas? No? I don't get a 1049 01:17:37,720 --> 01:17:41,120 Speaker 1: classical gas? Oh how about how about a Beatles song? 1050 01:17:41,160 --> 01:17:45,519 Speaker 1: Then we we have to uh by the way that catch, 1051 01:17:45,680 --> 01:17:49,960 Speaker 1: I've seen you do several times, and I've noticed that 1052 01:17:50,040 --> 01:17:53,960 Speaker 1: you're you're improving a touch in in some of it. 1053 01:17:54,000 --> 01:17:57,320 Speaker 1: There was a little bit that uh, it is every 1054 01:17:57,479 --> 01:18:00,639 Speaker 1: version of each song a little bit, a little bit. Yeah, 1055 01:18:01,360 --> 01:18:08,120 Speaker 1: that's just for season of the Witch. Now we're gonna 1056 01:18:08,120 --> 01:18:10,840 Speaker 1: go with the Beatles. Last time it was I saw 1057 01:18:10,840 --> 01:18:14,000 Speaker 1: her standing gear and you spoke about it for six months? 1058 01:18:16,640 --> 01:18:18,760 Speaker 1: Oh it was? Was it she loves you? It might 1059 01:18:18,800 --> 01:18:20,360 Speaker 1: have been she loves you? All right, So let's do 1060 01:18:20,439 --> 01:18:23,160 Speaker 1: something different? Well do I standing there? There? You go 1061 01:19:07,280 --> 01:20:56,760 Speaker 1: to take co amazing Lawrence, Thank you so much, as 1062 01:20:56,800 --> 01:20:59,679 Speaker 1: always every time you hear it, It's always always a delight. 1063 01:21:00,240 --> 01:21:05,080 Speaker 1: We have been speaking with Lawrence Juber, recording star Grammy 1064 01:21:05,120 --> 01:21:10,000 Speaker 1: a warning Um musician, composer, artists. You you go through 1065 01:21:10,040 --> 01:21:14,680 Speaker 1: the whole list, Grandpa Wow. If you enjoy this conversation, 1066 01:21:14,720 --> 01:21:16,559 Speaker 1: be sure and check up an Inch, show Down an 1067 01:21:16,600 --> 01:21:22,879 Speaker 1: Inch on Apple iTunes, Overcast, Stitcher, Bloomberg dot com, wherever 1068 01:21:23,000 --> 01:21:25,280 Speaker 1: finer podcasts are sold, and you could see any of 1069 01:21:25,320 --> 01:21:29,240 Speaker 1: the other two hundred or such conversations we've had previously. 1070 01:21:29,640 --> 01:21:33,240 Speaker 1: We love your comments, feedback and suggestions right to us 1071 01:21:33,280 --> 01:21:37,320 Speaker 1: at m IB podcast at Bloomberg dot net. I would 1072 01:21:37,320 --> 01:21:39,920 Speaker 1: be remiss if I did not thank the crack staff 1073 01:21:40,280 --> 01:21:44,080 Speaker 1: that helps put these shows together each week. Medina Parwanner 1074 01:21:44,280 --> 01:21:49,960 Speaker 1: is our producer, Slash audio engineer. Taylor Taylor Riggs is 1075 01:21:50,000 --> 01:21:53,320 Speaker 1: our booker. Michael Batnick is our head of research. I'm 1076 01:21:53,360 --> 01:21:56,760 Speaker 1: Barry Ritults. You've been listening to Masters in Business on 1077 01:21:56,920 --> 01:22:03,479 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Radio. Compte take tempt int