1 00:00:01,520 --> 00:00:03,240 Speaker 1: My dad was like, I want to talk to you 2 00:00:03,240 --> 00:00:07,080 Speaker 1: about something. Let's go talk for a second outside. He 3 00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:09,720 Speaker 1: started this whole preamble of like, you have taught me 4 00:00:09,760 --> 00:00:12,720 Speaker 1: the importance of honesty. You have been such a positive 5 00:00:12,760 --> 00:00:17,040 Speaker 1: influence on my life, Like you are an inspiration. And 6 00:00:17,120 --> 00:00:19,160 Speaker 1: he was looking me in the eye and being really 7 00:00:19,160 --> 00:00:22,360 Speaker 1: emotional about it, and he said, because of that, I 8 00:00:22,400 --> 00:00:25,040 Speaker 1: want to be honest with you. They're gonna have a 9 00:00:25,079 --> 00:00:27,000 Speaker 1: little bit of trouble coming up. 10 00:00:40,040 --> 00:00:43,760 Speaker 2: I'm Andrea Gunning and this is Betrayal, a show about 11 00:00:43,760 --> 00:00:47,440 Speaker 2: the people we trust the most and the deceptions that 12 00:00:47,600 --> 00:00:53,840 Speaker 2: change everything. At Betrayal, we hear lots of stories about 13 00:00:53,960 --> 00:01:00,640 Speaker 2: romantic betrayals, marriages and relationships blown apart by deception. Sometimes 14 00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:04,760 Speaker 2: we encounter another kind of betrayal, one that's not a 15 00:01:04,840 --> 00:01:08,640 Speaker 2: violation of vowels, but instead the violation of a more 16 00:01:08,880 --> 00:01:12,880 Speaker 2: inherent trust, the trust a child puts in their parents. 17 00:01:14,959 --> 00:01:17,160 Speaker 2: That's how we found Heather summer Lad. 18 00:01:19,600 --> 00:01:24,240 Speaker 1: As a really young child, I had no idea that 19 00:01:24,319 --> 00:01:26,640 Speaker 1: there was anything bizarre about my family. 20 00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:30,360 Speaker 2: Heather grew up in Elpaso, Texas, in the eighties and nineties. 21 00:01:30,840 --> 00:01:34,040 Speaker 2: She was the youngest child in a blended family. We're 22 00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:36,800 Speaker 2: not going to use her parents' names here. We'll just 23 00:01:36,880 --> 00:01:40,200 Speaker 2: call them mom and dad. Her earliest memories of her 24 00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:41,520 Speaker 2: parents are fond ones. 25 00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:46,240 Speaker 1: My parents were everything. They were really silly, they were 26 00:01:46,280 --> 00:01:50,040 Speaker 1: really fun. My dad, he used to play this game 27 00:01:50,040 --> 00:01:54,280 Speaker 1: with me where he put me on his shoulders, like 28 00:01:54,440 --> 00:01:57,760 Speaker 1: a piggyback ride. But he used to call it a 29 00:01:57,760 --> 00:02:00,560 Speaker 1: camel ride for some reason. I don't know why, but 30 00:02:00,720 --> 00:02:03,440 Speaker 1: he said that he was my camel. So I never 31 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:07,200 Speaker 1: called him dad. I only called him camel. I thought 32 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:09,640 Speaker 1: he was the funniest best father in the world. 33 00:02:10,600 --> 00:02:13,320 Speaker 2: Heather's mom was also playful and charming. 34 00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:17,120 Speaker 1: My mom wasn't strict at all. There was this kind 35 00:02:17,120 --> 00:02:20,320 Speaker 1: of running joke in my family. Anytime I quote unquote 36 00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:23,359 Speaker 1: acted up or threw a tantrum, she'd make me sit 37 00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:27,200 Speaker 1: in this little pink plastic chair, probably from the Dollar 38 00:02:27,240 --> 00:02:30,359 Speaker 1: Store or whatever, and it was called the attitude change 39 00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:36,359 Speaker 1: chair until my attitude changed. But then she would feel 40 00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:40,280 Speaker 1: so bad about making me sit there that every single 41 00:02:40,360 --> 00:02:43,640 Speaker 1: time she made me a chocolate malt she would joke 42 00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:45,839 Speaker 1: about it. She'd give me the malt and be like, oh, 43 00:02:46,240 --> 00:02:48,200 Speaker 1: I mean, how you're gonna act up? Just so you 44 00:02:48,200 --> 00:02:49,520 Speaker 1: can get this chocolate malt. 45 00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:54,240 Speaker 2: Her mom was part of a tight knit Mexican American family. 46 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:56,720 Speaker 1: I always like to joke that my mom didn't teach 47 00:02:56,720 --> 00:02:58,880 Speaker 1: me Spanish so that she could talk about me in 48 00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:02,359 Speaker 1: Spanish to other people, and then I wouldn't understand. 49 00:03:02,960 --> 00:03:06,280 Speaker 2: Heather says her mom treated her more like a confidant 50 00:03:06,480 --> 00:03:09,240 Speaker 2: or a friend and not so much like her child. 51 00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:13,200 Speaker 1: I never had a bedtime, and I remember asking my 52 00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:16,880 Speaker 1: mom for a bedtime because all my friends they had bedtimes. 53 00:03:16,919 --> 00:03:18,800 Speaker 1: But it was a free for all, like we could 54 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:19,799 Speaker 1: do whatever we wanted. 55 00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:23,400 Speaker 2: When Heather was in second grade, she was confronted for 56 00:03:23,480 --> 00:03:26,560 Speaker 2: the first time with something that would become a major 57 00:03:26,639 --> 00:03:31,240 Speaker 2: theme in her life, money, or more specifically, debt. 58 00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:36,600 Speaker 1: I have a pretty specific memory of being in line 59 00:03:37,040 --> 00:03:40,840 Speaker 1: at school for lunch and I had my little tray 60 00:03:41,480 --> 00:03:44,240 Speaker 1: and I walked up and the lunch lady just looked 61 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:46,600 Speaker 1: at me and she was like, your parents owe us 62 00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:49,560 Speaker 1: a lot of money. You can't keep taking trays, And 63 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:52,880 Speaker 1: a shame, you know, that washed over me, and also 64 00:03:52,920 --> 00:03:55,360 Speaker 1: the anxiety of just like, wait, what do you mean 65 00:03:55,360 --> 00:03:56,040 Speaker 1: they owe money? 66 00:03:56,600 --> 00:03:59,120 Speaker 2: At home, meal times were always a crisis. 67 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:02,680 Speaker 1: Dinner would roll around and we'd be like, we're hungry, 68 00:04:03,160 --> 00:04:06,520 Speaker 1: and then my dad would act surprised that we were hungry. 69 00:04:06,880 --> 00:04:09,920 Speaker 1: And then it was dinnertime. When we didn't have money, 70 00:04:09,960 --> 00:04:13,320 Speaker 1: my dad would have to go like basically forage for 71 00:04:13,440 --> 00:04:17,360 Speaker 1: food or money. He would leave for like a few hours, 72 00:04:17,480 --> 00:04:19,920 Speaker 1: and we wouldn't know when he was coming back, and 73 00:04:19,960 --> 00:04:22,880 Speaker 1: we didn't know where he was, and then he'd come 74 00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:26,760 Speaker 1: back with Sometimes it was full blown takeout, and my 75 00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:29,640 Speaker 1: mom would ask me, how did you get that? Other 76 00:04:29,760 --> 00:04:33,880 Speaker 1: times he would come home with like tortillas, And this 77 00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:36,120 Speaker 1: was like a daily occurrence until payday. 78 00:04:37,920 --> 00:04:41,440 Speaker 2: Heather's childhood revolved around her parents payday. 79 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:45,239 Speaker 1: That was such a big day in our house. Everything 80 00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:47,520 Speaker 1: was centered around when was the next paycheck? When are 81 00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:51,120 Speaker 1: we getting paid again? And so we would get the paycheck, 82 00:04:51,480 --> 00:04:56,360 Speaker 1: and you know, it was like celebration that first day. 83 00:04:56,400 --> 00:04:58,160 Speaker 1: We'd got to eat, or we'd go to the movies, 84 00:04:58,279 --> 00:05:01,680 Speaker 1: or my mom would go shopping and we'd live it up. 85 00:05:01,720 --> 00:05:05,200 Speaker 1: We'd have all this stuff, but the money seemed to 86 00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:09,440 Speaker 1: always be gone a few days after pay day and 87 00:05:09,480 --> 00:05:12,520 Speaker 1: then a few days later we didn't have anything. 88 00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:16,320 Speaker 2: Between pay days, Heather and her dad would usually take 89 00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:17,800 Speaker 2: a trip to the pawn shop. 90 00:05:18,200 --> 00:05:21,000 Speaker 1: I used to go with my father to pawn things 91 00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:24,839 Speaker 1: as early as first grade. We would drive around to 92 00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:28,280 Speaker 1: all the different pawn shops. I mean, to me as 93 00:05:28,279 --> 00:05:30,720 Speaker 1: a kid, it wasn't bizarre. It was like, oh yay, 94 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:33,279 Speaker 1: like we're going to the pawn shop, We're going to 95 00:05:33,279 --> 00:05:34,280 Speaker 1: Applebee's tonight. 96 00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:37,760 Speaker 2: But here's the thing that still doesn't make sense to 97 00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:39,599 Speaker 2: Heather about her childhood. 98 00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:44,600 Speaker 1: We weren't poor, or at least their salaries suggest that 99 00:05:44,640 --> 00:05:46,200 Speaker 1: we shouldn't have been poor. 100 00:05:47,080 --> 00:05:50,920 Speaker 2: Both of her parents worked full time as teachers. In fact, 101 00:05:51,080 --> 00:05:53,840 Speaker 2: when she was growing up, her father was an assistant 102 00:05:53,839 --> 00:05:55,600 Speaker 2: principal at a high school. 103 00:05:55,880 --> 00:05:59,200 Speaker 1: We should have been, I think, pretty clearly middle class. 104 00:05:59,320 --> 00:06:02,479 Speaker 1: Especially the cost of living where we were from wasn't 105 00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:05,920 Speaker 1: really that high, so it was bizarre that we never 106 00:06:05,960 --> 00:06:06,640 Speaker 1: had money. 107 00:06:07,400 --> 00:06:10,400 Speaker 2: They lived above their means. When the paychecks came in, 108 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:14,480 Speaker 2: they bought things, including jewelry and expensive electronics. They spent 109 00:06:14,560 --> 00:06:17,640 Speaker 2: so quickly that between paychecks they would run out of 110 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:20,520 Speaker 2: money and wouldn't have enough to eat, so they pawned 111 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:24,960 Speaker 2: whatever they had just bought. She began realizing this was strange, 112 00:06:25,600 --> 00:06:27,359 Speaker 2: especially when she made friends at school. 113 00:06:29,720 --> 00:06:33,320 Speaker 1: My friends. A lot of their parents were teachers, and 114 00:06:33,640 --> 00:06:38,200 Speaker 1: seeing how they lived in comparison with how we lived 115 00:06:39,279 --> 00:06:40,880 Speaker 1: was eye opening. 116 00:06:41,320 --> 00:06:44,480 Speaker 2: When she was in fourth grade, Heather was finally allowed 117 00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:47,119 Speaker 2: to go over to a friend's house for the first time. 118 00:06:48,080 --> 00:06:50,880 Speaker 1: One of the craziest things is they would offer me food. 119 00:06:52,760 --> 00:06:56,040 Speaker 1: They were like, oh, do you want dinner? And the 120 00:06:56,160 --> 00:07:00,560 Speaker 1: idea that somebody would be offering me food willingly and 121 00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:03,320 Speaker 1: that I was welcome to it like it just didn't 122 00:07:03,320 --> 00:07:06,440 Speaker 1: feel real. So that, I think is when I started 123 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:09,960 Speaker 1: to realize, like, this is really not normal. 124 00:07:10,680 --> 00:07:13,200 Speaker 2: And there was another thing Heather noticed. 125 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:17,080 Speaker 1: She had her own room. That was really I hope, 126 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:20,240 Speaker 1: because I never I got my own room maybe like 127 00:07:20,320 --> 00:07:23,320 Speaker 1: four times in my childhood out of like the seventeen 128 00:07:23,320 --> 00:07:24,480 Speaker 1: houses we lived in. 129 00:07:25,760 --> 00:07:30,720 Speaker 2: The seventeen houses they lived in. Her family moved every 130 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:34,960 Speaker 2: single year of her childhood, and Heather shared a room 131 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:37,160 Speaker 2: with her half brothers or slept on the couch. 132 00:07:38,080 --> 00:07:40,400 Speaker 1: We always knew it was because we were getting evicted. 133 00:07:40,960 --> 00:07:43,840 Speaker 1: There was no cover story. We heard all the fights, 134 00:07:43,880 --> 00:07:44,680 Speaker 1: we knew everything. 135 00:07:45,240 --> 00:07:50,720 Speaker 2: After every move, Heather watched her mom become increasingly defeated, exasperated, 136 00:07:51,560 --> 00:07:54,120 Speaker 2: and angrier with her dad. 137 00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:57,120 Speaker 1: Because that was the girl. I think my mom relied 138 00:07:57,160 --> 00:08:00,800 Speaker 1: on me emotionally. Oh, your father did this and he's 139 00:08:00,840 --> 00:08:03,520 Speaker 1: done that. It started to become really clear that the 140 00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:05,960 Speaker 1: things he was doing were really shady. 141 00:08:07,440 --> 00:08:10,760 Speaker 2: Heather quickly learned that her mom didn't approve of her 142 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:13,560 Speaker 2: dad's behavior, and it rubbed off on her. 143 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:17,440 Speaker 1: I started to see my father as the quote unquote 144 00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:23,160 Speaker 1: problem and my mom. I always thought of myself as 145 00:08:23,160 --> 00:08:23,800 Speaker 1: her protector. 146 00:08:24,640 --> 00:08:27,680 Speaker 2: Heather's mom would even confide in her about wanting to 147 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:28,440 Speaker 2: leave her dad. 148 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:33,240 Speaker 1: She was always talking about leaving him. She never would 149 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:36,079 Speaker 1: leave him though, because like, oh, I don't want to 150 00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:38,720 Speaker 1: be a burden to my kids, or I'm saving as 151 00:08:38,800 --> 00:08:39,880 Speaker 1: much money as i can. 152 00:08:40,559 --> 00:08:45,280 Speaker 2: Right before Heather started high school, her dad just walked out. 153 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:48,760 Speaker 1: He just said he couldn't take it anymore, so he left. 154 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:53,040 Speaker 1: And that was great. I was helping my mom budget. 155 00:08:53,640 --> 00:08:58,120 Speaker 1: Family and friends came to help. My aunt paid some bills, 156 00:08:58,640 --> 00:09:01,480 Speaker 1: people brought us grocery. It was just great. And I 157 00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:04,400 Speaker 1: remember going with my mom to a divorce lawyer too, 158 00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:07,240 Speaker 1: and just like really like trying to support her and 159 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:09,680 Speaker 1: actually going through with a divorce. 160 00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:13,600 Speaker 2: But within a month or two he started coming back around. 161 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:17,120 Speaker 1: My dad would start to come over in this period 162 00:09:17,120 --> 00:09:20,720 Speaker 1: when they were separated. He would come over because my 163 00:09:20,800 --> 00:09:23,080 Speaker 1: mom needed him to fix a light bulb or something, 164 00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:25,520 Speaker 1: and then he'd come over, and the next day it 165 00:09:25,559 --> 00:09:28,440 Speaker 1: was just say a little bit longer, Oh, let me 166 00:09:28,480 --> 00:09:31,880 Speaker 1: fix the light bulb and also do your laundry. And 167 00:09:31,920 --> 00:09:33,600 Speaker 1: then he lived there again. 168 00:09:34,360 --> 00:09:37,840 Speaker 2: He promised that this time things were going to be different. 169 00:09:38,520 --> 00:09:42,199 Speaker 2: He started taking steps towards financial stability. 170 00:09:42,320 --> 00:09:45,560 Speaker 1: And so my dad started seeing the pastor and was 171 00:09:45,559 --> 00:09:47,360 Speaker 1: supposedly getting all this help with budgeting. 172 00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:50,840 Speaker 2: Heather didn't believe him at first. She was angry with 173 00:09:50,920 --> 00:09:53,840 Speaker 2: him and angry at her mom for letting him back 174 00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:57,120 Speaker 2: into their lives. It was a lot of pressure on 175 00:09:57,160 --> 00:09:59,520 Speaker 2: a child, too much pressure. 176 00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:04,400 Speaker 1: I have memories of sobbing in front of my parents 177 00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:06,960 Speaker 1: and then just kind of like going about and eating 178 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:10,720 Speaker 1: breakfast while I'm there, just sobbing about getting evicted again. 179 00:10:11,360 --> 00:10:14,000 Speaker 1: My mom just like eating her grapefruit and kind of 180 00:10:14,080 --> 00:10:18,800 Speaker 1: like ice colds and giving no comfort. My dad just 181 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:20,440 Speaker 1: like catering to her needs. 182 00:10:21,080 --> 00:10:25,640 Speaker 2: Heather retreated into herself emotionally when she started high school. 183 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:29,040 Speaker 2: She fixated on the one thing she could control. 184 00:10:30,960 --> 00:10:35,120 Speaker 1: I was in the gifted program at school, and part 185 00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:38,480 Speaker 1: of how I connected to other adults was trying to 186 00:10:38,520 --> 00:10:41,480 Speaker 1: excel at whatever I did. So trying to excel at school, 187 00:10:41,640 --> 00:10:47,000 Speaker 1: making good grades, not being rebellious. And I played the violin, 188 00:10:47,559 --> 00:10:50,160 Speaker 1: which my mom wanted me to do, even though. 189 00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:54,240 Speaker 2: It wasn't her passion. Heather was a gifted violinist, and 190 00:10:54,280 --> 00:10:57,760 Speaker 2: she started dreaming about a future, one that was far 191 00:10:57,920 --> 00:10:59,120 Speaker 2: away from her parents. 192 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:02,199 Speaker 1: Wanted to be a writer. That was like a big 193 00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:05,720 Speaker 1: part of my childhood. And there was this writing contest. 194 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:09,200 Speaker 1: And as I was looking up the writing contest, I 195 00:11:09,280 --> 00:11:11,000 Speaker 1: discovered Bennington College. 196 00:11:12,320 --> 00:11:15,600 Speaker 2: Bennington College is a small liberal arts school in Vermont. 197 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:20,000 Speaker 2: It's known for creative student led coursework. It promised the 198 00:11:20,040 --> 00:11:23,320 Speaker 2: one thing Heather craved the most. Freedom. 199 00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:27,320 Speaker 1: Everything about it just seemed like paradise, and it was 200 00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:31,319 Speaker 1: like two thousand miles away. So I just got it 201 00:11:31,320 --> 00:11:33,600 Speaker 1: into my head that I really wanted to go there. 202 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:39,640 Speaker 2: From that moment on, Bennington became her goal, her only goal. 203 00:11:40,640 --> 00:11:42,880 Speaker 1: I just had that determination. I just knew I needed 204 00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:45,839 Speaker 1: to get the fuck out. My body just couldn't take 205 00:11:45,880 --> 00:11:46,440 Speaker 1: it anymore. 206 00:11:47,960 --> 00:11:51,280 Speaker 2: One day, during her senior year of high school, Heather 207 00:11:51,400 --> 00:11:54,679 Speaker 2: got a letter in the mail the letter she'd been 208 00:11:54,720 --> 00:11:55,440 Speaker 2: waiting for. 209 00:11:57,000 --> 00:11:59,640 Speaker 1: It was just a normal day and my mom got 210 00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:01,680 Speaker 1: the mail and there was an envelope for me and 211 00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:05,000 Speaker 1: she handed it to me. It was from Bennington. I 212 00:12:05,080 --> 00:12:08,200 Speaker 1: remember opening the envelope and I was like, Mom, I 213 00:12:08,240 --> 00:12:12,880 Speaker 1: got in and her face just dropped like it went 214 00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:19,080 Speaker 1: ice colds, and she started walking away. And I was like, oh, 215 00:12:19,120 --> 00:12:21,280 Speaker 1: maybe she's getting me a present or something. 216 00:12:21,960 --> 00:12:26,040 Speaker 2: But she wasn't getting her daughter a present. Instead, Heather's 217 00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:28,840 Speaker 2: mom felt abandoned by her decision to go to college 218 00:12:28,880 --> 00:12:32,880 Speaker 2: so far away. To Heather's surprise, it was her dad 219 00:12:32,920 --> 00:12:36,160 Speaker 2: who swooped in, and it was him who said the 220 00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:38,520 Speaker 2: things she desperately needed to hear. 221 00:12:40,679 --> 00:12:43,760 Speaker 1: Like Oh, I'm so proud of you. This is great, congratulations. 222 00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:48,520 Speaker 1: I will talk to your mom for you, like, let 223 00:12:48,520 --> 00:12:50,880 Speaker 1: me smooth this over for you, because I really want 224 00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:52,360 Speaker 1: you to be able to go to this school. 225 00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:56,720 Speaker 2: Her dad worked hard to earn her trust back. He 226 00:12:56,800 --> 00:13:00,160 Speaker 2: acknowledged his mistakes and promised that he was going to 227 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:04,080 Speaker 2: be there to make her dreams come true. 228 00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:07,880 Speaker 1: My dad really made me believe that he was on 229 00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:12,120 Speaker 1: my side. He would say things like, after everything that's happened, 230 00:13:12,679 --> 00:13:14,280 Speaker 1: I want you to go to school. I want to 231 00:13:14,320 --> 00:13:16,280 Speaker 1: help you do this, like I will figure this out 232 00:13:16,320 --> 00:13:16,520 Speaker 1: for you. 233 00:13:17,480 --> 00:13:21,080 Speaker 2: For the first time since she was a child, Heather 234 00:13:21,240 --> 00:13:22,400 Speaker 2: trusted her dad. 235 00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:25,800 Speaker 1: I wanted that cammel relationship that we had had because 236 00:13:25,920 --> 00:13:28,320 Speaker 1: after a while I stopped calling him anything, Like I 237 00:13:28,320 --> 00:13:31,360 Speaker 1: didn't call him Cammel, I didn't call him dad like 238 00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:33,719 Speaker 1: I think for a while, I was referring to him 239 00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:37,720 Speaker 1: as my biological father. So to have him put this 240 00:13:38,559 --> 00:13:41,600 Speaker 1: olive branch out of like, yes, you know what, I know. 241 00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:44,520 Speaker 1: I did wrong. I'm learning from my mistakes and I 242 00:13:44,559 --> 00:13:47,760 Speaker 1: want to help you. You're an eighteen year old kid, 243 00:13:47,800 --> 00:14:02,560 Speaker 1: you're gonna eat that up, which I did. 244 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:08,040 Speaker 2: Heather had been accepted to her dream college, Bennington, two 245 00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:11,280 Speaker 2: thousand miles away from El Paso, Texas and the chaos 246 00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:14,840 Speaker 2: she'd grown up with. There was still one big obstacle 247 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:19,880 Speaker 2: between Heather and Bennington, money, but her dad was there 248 00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:20,720 Speaker 2: to help. 249 00:14:20,920 --> 00:14:23,160 Speaker 1: When it came time to filling out the paperwork for 250 00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:25,440 Speaker 1: financial aid. You know, he was the one helping me. 251 00:14:26,280 --> 00:14:29,000 Speaker 1: He was like brainstorming, and then he was like, I've 252 00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:32,040 Speaker 1: worked it out with Bennington. We've got this payment plan. 253 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:37,520 Speaker 2: Heather was skeptical at first, just a few years ago, 254 00:14:37,680 --> 00:14:41,440 Speaker 2: they didn't have enough money for food even with financial aid, 255 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:45,880 Speaker 2: how could they afford regular college tuition payments. But her 256 00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:47,200 Speaker 2: dad reassured her. 257 00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:51,000 Speaker 1: We're budgeting and we have more money now, and like, 258 00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:52,880 Speaker 1: I know how to do this, and I want to 259 00:14:52,920 --> 00:14:53,360 Speaker 1: do this. 260 00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:58,760 Speaker 2: So Heather enrolled at Bennington. She finally felt like her 261 00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:02,440 Speaker 2: life was starting. There was one upfront cost that financial 262 00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:05,880 Speaker 2: aid didn't cover. A few thousand dollars she needed for 263 00:15:05,960 --> 00:15:10,640 Speaker 2: travel to Vermont, a laptop, and textbooks. The family put 264 00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:13,360 Speaker 2: their heads together to come up with the money. 265 00:15:13,920 --> 00:15:16,720 Speaker 1: I remember one day he came and was like, I've 266 00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:18,920 Speaker 1: got a co signer for you for a loan. Because 267 00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:21,200 Speaker 1: my parents were never going to be co signers. They 268 00:15:21,280 --> 00:15:23,320 Speaker 1: didn't have the credit for that, and I didn't have 269 00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:27,520 Speaker 1: any credit. It was a small loan for I think 270 00:15:27,560 --> 00:15:30,680 Speaker 1: three thousand dollars, and that was the loan that was 271 00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:32,640 Speaker 1: going to get me to school. It was going to 272 00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:34,800 Speaker 1: buy me a computer, it was going to get me 273 00:15:34,920 --> 00:15:38,200 Speaker 1: my textbooks. He came home he was like, I've got it. 274 00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:40,600 Speaker 1: I've got you a co signer. She's already agreed, it's 275 00:15:40,640 --> 00:15:44,520 Speaker 1: my friend. She's already signed the paperwork, like all you 276 00:15:44,640 --> 00:15:47,040 Speaker 1: have to do is sign right here, and this is it. 277 00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:52,400 Speaker 2: When August came, the whole family took a trip to 278 00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:56,080 Speaker 2: Vermont to move her into college. As they began the drive, 279 00:15:56,400 --> 00:15:58,520 Speaker 2: Heather was overcome with anxiety. 280 00:15:59,080 --> 00:16:01,840 Speaker 1: I kept expect there to be some sort of issue, 281 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:03,920 Speaker 1: and the whole drive up to her mom, I was like, 282 00:16:04,040 --> 00:16:06,480 Speaker 1: I'm going to die. We're going to get into a 283 00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:08,920 Speaker 1: car crash. My dad is going to have a heart 284 00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:13,240 Speaker 1: attack and die. Just the most awful situations just kept 285 00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:15,400 Speaker 1: replaying in my head because I didn't think that I 286 00:16:15,520 --> 00:16:17,120 Speaker 1: was actually going to make it there. 287 00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:23,120 Speaker 2: Behind her catastrophic anxieties was a much more realistic one. 288 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:24,720 Speaker 1: I'm going to show up and they're going to tell 289 00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:27,680 Speaker 1: me that I'm like denied or something like the payment 290 00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:28,680 Speaker 1: plan didn't work out. 291 00:16:29,280 --> 00:16:32,200 Speaker 2: When they finally got to campus, I go. 292 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:35,600 Speaker 1: And I ask for my ID. It took my picture 293 00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:41,160 Speaker 1: and everything like here, and I was like, Okay, this 294 00:16:41,320 --> 00:16:41,760 Speaker 1: is real. 295 00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:45,800 Speaker 2: It was a huge relief. Her parents took her shopping 296 00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:49,040 Speaker 2: for dorm supplies and helped her move in. It all 297 00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:53,280 Speaker 2: felt shockingly normal. When it came time to say their goodbyes, 298 00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:57,320 Speaker 2: Heather expected her mom to be upset, clinging or even angry, 299 00:16:57,920 --> 00:16:58,720 Speaker 2: but she wasn't. 300 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:02,280 Speaker 1: She was kind of like, Okay, we had, you know, 301 00:17:02,440 --> 00:17:04,000 Speaker 1: just to have fun. And I was kind of like, 302 00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:08,200 Speaker 1: what is happening. This is very bizarre, and I was 303 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:14,320 Speaker 1: like goodbye, and I was on my own. As far 304 00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:18,280 Speaker 1: as I knew, I was leaving my childhood behind and 305 00:17:18,560 --> 00:17:22,800 Speaker 1: entering into a new life with my parents as supporters. 306 00:17:24,320 --> 00:17:28,320 Speaker 2: Bennington was everything she expected it to be. She finally 307 00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:29,919 Speaker 2: felt free. 308 00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:33,880 Speaker 1: Oh my god, I loved it. When the leaves started 309 00:17:33,880 --> 00:17:36,720 Speaker 1: to change. Oh my gosh. My friend took me in 310 00:17:36,800 --> 00:17:39,480 Speaker 1: her car and we just like drove around and it 311 00:17:39,560 --> 00:17:41,960 Speaker 1: was just like the best freaking day ever. 312 00:17:42,760 --> 00:17:46,119 Speaker 2: She thrived at Bennington, even though she wanted to be 313 00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:49,320 Speaker 2: a writer. She ended up pursuing a degree in music. 314 00:17:50,040 --> 00:17:52,640 Speaker 2: But in the back of her mind, she always felt 315 00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:56,000 Speaker 2: a nagging guilt that her parents were breaking the bank 316 00:17:56,040 --> 00:17:59,879 Speaker 2: to send her to college, and Heather felt a special 317 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:03,320 Speaker 2: guilty that she had left her mom alone with her dad. 318 00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:06,680 Speaker 2: So she was surprised when her parents called to tell her. 319 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:11,000 Speaker 1: That they were moving to Boston. It was a shock 320 00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:13,119 Speaker 1: that it actually happened, and they just kind of up 321 00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:13,639 Speaker 1: and moved. 322 00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:18,160 Speaker 2: Her mom loved Boston and always talked about moving there. 323 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:21,880 Speaker 2: So maybe Heather's dream was allowing her mom to live 324 00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:25,800 Speaker 2: hers as well. For the remainder of her time in college, 325 00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:28,320 Speaker 2: Heather's parents were just a few hours away in their 326 00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:29,720 Speaker 2: new Boston apartment. 327 00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:35,520 Speaker 1: They moved to this really nice, cute little apartment, three bedrooms, 328 00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:39,480 Speaker 1: two stories, a tree lined street, and they were there 329 00:18:39,960 --> 00:18:43,000 Speaker 1: for a couple of years. For my family, like that 330 00:18:43,119 --> 00:18:45,520 Speaker 1: was huge, Like staying anywhere for more than a year 331 00:18:46,160 --> 00:18:49,840 Speaker 1: met things were great. They're not only paying for my education, 332 00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:54,199 Speaker 1: They've also got this amazing apartment in Boston, and so 333 00:18:54,240 --> 00:18:56,639 Speaker 1: when I would go back home to visit, I have 334 00:18:56,920 --> 00:18:58,040 Speaker 1: this nice place to be. 335 00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:02,080 Speaker 2: Even though her parents were doing better than ever, the 336 00:19:02,160 --> 00:19:05,920 Speaker 2: cost of Heather's tuition was still a strain. She had 337 00:19:05,960 --> 00:19:09,240 Speaker 2: financial aid and then that small loan she'd co signed 338 00:19:09,240 --> 00:19:13,399 Speaker 2: before she started college. Everything else totaled about five thousand 339 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:17,120 Speaker 2: dollars a semester, and her parents were covering it out 340 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:19,120 Speaker 2: of pocket pretty much. 341 00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:22,159 Speaker 1: Every semester. I would get a late notice of payment 342 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:25,199 Speaker 1: in my box, like your past do with your tuition, 343 00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:28,320 Speaker 1: And I'd always call my dad and I'd be like, listen, 344 00:19:28,320 --> 00:19:31,480 Speaker 1: I know you're working really hard. You know, whether you 345 00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:32,960 Speaker 1: can be able to make the payments. 346 00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:36,960 Speaker 2: Every time she had to make a call like this, 347 00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:38,919 Speaker 2: it racked her with guilt. 348 00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:42,480 Speaker 1: My parents would be really stressed, like, your mom's been 349 00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:45,720 Speaker 1: working so hard after school doing tutoring to get some 350 00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:47,800 Speaker 1: extra money, and I'm doing this, that and the other. 351 00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:50,679 Speaker 1: We've almost got it. We've almost got it. 352 00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:55,399 Speaker 2: The day before her senior year started, she was staying 353 00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:59,040 Speaker 2: at her parents' house. Before she left, her dad wanted 354 00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:01,359 Speaker 2: to talk. He sounded concerned. 355 00:20:02,359 --> 00:20:05,280 Speaker 1: It was like a really beautiful day. My dad took 356 00:20:05,320 --> 00:20:07,119 Speaker 1: me up to the back deck and he was like, oh, 357 00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:08,960 Speaker 1: let's go talk for a second outside. I want to 358 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:11,679 Speaker 1: talk to you about something. So he started with this 359 00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:14,880 Speaker 1: whole preambled like you have taught me the importance of honesty, 360 00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:18,359 Speaker 1: Like you have been such a positive influence on my life, 361 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:21,919 Speaker 1: Like you are an inspiration. And he was like looking 362 00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:24,840 Speaker 1: me in the eye and like being really emotional about it. 363 00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:27,840 Speaker 1: And he said, because of that, I want to be 364 00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:30,159 Speaker 1: honest with you. You're going to get a note in 365 00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:31,520 Speaker 1: your box this semester. 366 00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:35,480 Speaker 2: He asked Heather if she knew how loans worked. 367 00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:38,359 Speaker 1: I was like, you said that we didn't have to 368 00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:41,080 Speaker 1: take out loans for this year, like you said, everything 369 00:20:41,119 --> 00:20:45,199 Speaker 1: was all set and he was like, no, actually we 370 00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:47,520 Speaker 1: did have to take out a loan and everything is 371 00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:49,800 Speaker 1: all set, but you're going to get this paper and 372 00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:52,800 Speaker 1: just give him this. And he started phishing something out 373 00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:54,480 Speaker 1: of his back pocket and it was just like this 374 00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:57,919 Speaker 1: piece of paper he was a promised story note and 375 00:20:57,960 --> 00:21:00,040 Speaker 1: he was like, you just give him this and everything should. 376 00:20:59,840 --> 00:21:03,119 Speaker 2: Be get The next day, when Heather got to school 377 00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:06,439 Speaker 2: to start her senior year, there. 378 00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:08,480 Speaker 1: Was a note in my box. I went to the 379 00:21:08,520 --> 00:21:11,879 Speaker 1: business office and they told me that I had to 380 00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:14,639 Speaker 1: leave and that I couldn't be on campus unless I 381 00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:16,840 Speaker 1: came back to school with a bank certified check for 382 00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:18,000 Speaker 1: twenty thousand dollars. 383 00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:21,720 Speaker 2: The number didn't even make sense. As far as she knew, 384 00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:24,520 Speaker 2: her parents only paid about five thousand dollars out of 385 00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:28,600 Speaker 2: pocket every semester. How could they possibly be this far 386 00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:29,960 Speaker 2: behind on payments. 387 00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:32,680 Speaker 1: I called my dad and I kept on being like hey, 388 00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:34,920 Speaker 1: like they said twenty thousand dollars, How do we owe 389 00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:37,320 Speaker 1: twenty thousand dollars? And he was like, Oh, those guys, 390 00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:41,159 Speaker 1: they're real jerks over there at the business office. I 391 00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:44,040 Speaker 1: couldn't get anybody to tell me what was going on. 392 00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:48,160 Speaker 1: My father didn't know anything. My mom didn't know anything. 393 00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:51,240 Speaker 1: I just knew that I couldn't be at school until 394 00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:52,399 Speaker 1: this money was paid. 395 00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:57,159 Speaker 2: Without any real answers, Heather's spent a few days at 396 00:21:57,160 --> 00:21:59,560 Speaker 2: her parents' house. I'm sure if she'd be able to 397 00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:04,919 Speaker 2: continue her education. Furious and exasperated, she stopped asking for 398 00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:07,480 Speaker 2: answers from her dad. She just wanted to go back 399 00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:10,359 Speaker 2: to school, and somehow. 400 00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:13,080 Speaker 1: It got cleared up. I can't even say I know how. 401 00:22:16,119 --> 00:22:17,440 Speaker 1: I was just like, I don't want to know anything 402 00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:19,080 Speaker 1: about this. I just want to go back to school. 403 00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:23,800 Speaker 1: I just know that at the last possible second, I 404 00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:28,879 Speaker 1: was able to graduate. That's when I started to realize, like, Okay, 405 00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:32,800 Speaker 1: something fishy is going on here, but I just wanted 406 00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:35,640 Speaker 1: to graduate. I didn't want to think about it, and. 407 00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:39,359 Speaker 2: She did graduate with a music degree. She planned to 408 00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:41,680 Speaker 2: move to New York City to work as a musician. 409 00:22:42,840 --> 00:22:45,880 Speaker 2: She felt her dad had done something fishy to mysteriously 410 00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:49,480 Speaker 2: settle the bill at Bennington. That made her more concerned 411 00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:52,879 Speaker 2: than ever about her dad's behavior and what it meant 412 00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:54,040 Speaker 2: for her mom. 413 00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:57,520 Speaker 1: I remember telling my mom, look what happened with Bennington. 414 00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:00,439 Speaker 1: He's going back to his old patterns. You have to 415 00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:03,560 Speaker 1: leave him. Like, I was so upset, and my mom 416 00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:05,800 Speaker 1: kept being like, yes, I'm going to leave him, I'm 417 00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:09,360 Speaker 1: going to leave him, And you know, I told her, like, Mom, 418 00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:13,000 Speaker 1: you're in an abusive relationship, and she was just like, oh, 419 00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:14,000 Speaker 1: I know, I know. I know. 420 00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:18,439 Speaker 2: That summer, Heather worked gigs and odd jobs off of 421 00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:21,520 Speaker 2: Craigslist to get enough money to move herself to New York. 422 00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:25,480 Speaker 2: Even though she was in survival mode, Heather was still 423 00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:26,520 Speaker 2: worried about her mom. 424 00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:29,800 Speaker 1: It got to the point where I even asked my 425 00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:32,960 Speaker 1: roommates if my mom could come live with us for 426 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:35,280 Speaker 1: a little bait, which didn't go over very well with 427 00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:38,480 Speaker 1: the roommates. They were like no, that's how desperate I 428 00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:40,200 Speaker 1: was to get my mom out of this situation. 429 00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:46,600 Speaker 2: One day that summer, Heather got a message out of 430 00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:47,360 Speaker 2: the blue. 431 00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:49,199 Speaker 1: And as soon as I saw that it was like 432 00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:51,639 Speaker 1: an eight eight eight member. I was like, oh, I 433 00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:54,160 Speaker 1: knew what those kind of numbers meant. They're looking for 434 00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:56,600 Speaker 1: my parents, because you know, we were always getting deck 435 00:23:56,640 --> 00:24:01,520 Speaker 1: collector calls and stuff. So I called them back and 436 00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:04,159 Speaker 1: I gave them my name, and the guy on the 437 00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:08,920 Speaker 1: other end was like you're past due for your student loans. 438 00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:12,359 Speaker 1: And I was like, what are you talking about? What 439 00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:13,320 Speaker 1: student loans? 440 00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:17,040 Speaker 2: As far as she knew, she didn't have any student loans, 441 00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:20,359 Speaker 2: just that initial three thousand dollars loan she signed for 442 00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:21,760 Speaker 2: before starting school. 443 00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:24,840 Speaker 1: He said I had twelve student loans that were in 444 00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:28,720 Speaker 1: collection and that it was a really, really serious matter. 445 00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:32,479 Speaker 1: I asked him how much and he said it was 446 00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:35,240 Speaker 1: one hundred and twenty four thousand dollars that I owed. 447 00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:56,480 Speaker 2: Shortly after she graduated college, Heather summer Lad received a 448 00:24:56,520 --> 00:24:59,280 Speaker 2: call from a debt collector. She was overdue on her 449 00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:03,440 Speaker 2: student loans, twelve student loans, totally one hundred and twenty 450 00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:06,800 Speaker 2: four thousand dollars student loans with her name on them 451 00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:08,600 Speaker 2: that she never knew existed. 452 00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:12,600 Speaker 1: It was like feeling the chain and getting clipped to 453 00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:16,320 Speaker 1: my collar. Who's like, wow, I still feel it in 454 00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:19,840 Speaker 1: my body. I feel that anger in my chest and 455 00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:20,879 Speaker 1: my chest constricting. 456 00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:24,480 Speaker 2: In addition to the overdue loans, there was something else. 457 00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:27,399 Speaker 2: Heather would be on the hook for a fraud charge. 458 00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:30,200 Speaker 2: Turns out there was a co signer on some of 459 00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:33,800 Speaker 2: the loans and their signature had been forged. 460 00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:37,560 Speaker 1: So of course I have visions going to jail and 461 00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:39,960 Speaker 1: being framed for something that I didn't do. 462 00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:45,320 Speaker 2: Heather knew immediately that her dad was behind this crisis. 463 00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:48,760 Speaker 2: She tried desperately to explain it to the deck collector. 464 00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:53,040 Speaker 1: I was like, trying to tell the story my dad, 465 00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:56,280 Speaker 1: you know. I was like, no, you don't understand. My dad. 466 00:25:56,560 --> 00:25:57,520 Speaker 1: He's the one who did this. 467 00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:04,200 Speaker 2: Heather hung up and immediately dialed her parents' house. Her 468 00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:05,080 Speaker 2: mom picked up. 469 00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:08,040 Speaker 1: I told her what happened, and she was like, hold on, 470 00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:11,560 Speaker 1: there was no he did what. I was like, oh 471 00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:16,040 Speaker 1: my god, she knew. So she handed the phone to 472 00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:18,199 Speaker 1: my dad. He was just like trying to flip it 473 00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:20,520 Speaker 1: back to me. He kept talking about how I was 474 00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:23,840 Speaker 1: too expensive, your violin cost ons money, and your education 475 00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:26,159 Speaker 1: costs the switch money, and we did this, that and 476 00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:28,600 Speaker 1: the other for you, and you're not letting me talk. 477 00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:30,680 Speaker 1: I remember him saying that you're not letting me talk. 478 00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:33,399 Speaker 1: You don't let people talk. And he gave the phone 479 00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:35,400 Speaker 1: back to my mom and I was like, you knew 480 00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:38,800 Speaker 1: about it, you knew, And my mom was crying and 481 00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:41,960 Speaker 1: she was like, yes, I've been nagging him to pay 482 00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:44,320 Speaker 1: this back. He said he was going to take care 483 00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:45,400 Speaker 1: of it, and he promised. 484 00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:51,280 Speaker 2: Her dad had taken out one hundred and twenty four 485 00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:55,720 Speaker 2: thousand dollars in loans in Heather's name and forged her signature. 486 00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:59,600 Speaker 2: He'd also forged the signature of a co signer, someone 487 00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:03,640 Speaker 2: who was family friend. Her dad wouldn't admit to it directly, 488 00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:07,919 Speaker 2: but Heather saw the documents with her name signed in 489 00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:12,639 Speaker 2: her father's handwriting. Realizing the extent of his deception, she 490 00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:14,720 Speaker 2: immediately feared for her mom's safety. 491 00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:18,760 Speaker 1: I always saw her as a victim of my father's abuse. 492 00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:21,439 Speaker 1: I wrote this to her in an email too. I 493 00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:23,800 Speaker 1: was like, I don't understand why you're still with him. 494 00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:26,600 Speaker 1: I don't know if he's threatened to kill you, if 495 00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:30,280 Speaker 1: he's threatened to kill us, like, if there's violence involved. 496 00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:33,600 Speaker 2: She'd never seen her dad be violent, but there had 497 00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:36,360 Speaker 2: to be a reason why her mom never spoke up. 498 00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:40,080 Speaker 2: Her dad said he would fix this, that he would 499 00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:43,360 Speaker 2: be responsible for making the payments. 500 00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:45,360 Speaker 1: But of course, my dad never made payments. 501 00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:51,080 Speaker 2: Heather was done with her father. She told her mom 502 00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:54,240 Speaker 2: that she wanted no contact with him, and if she 503 00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:56,240 Speaker 2: came home, he couldn't be there. 504 00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:59,600 Speaker 1: And so we started on that dynamic word It's like 505 00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:02,360 Speaker 1: my mom and I, as long as we didn't talk 506 00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:05,000 Speaker 1: about the loans or my father, we were cool and 507 00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:07,280 Speaker 1: my mom was happy to respect that. 508 00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:11,200 Speaker 2: Now with her father out of her life, Heather got 509 00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:16,000 Speaker 2: another call about overdue payments. This time she was ready. 510 00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:19,239 Speaker 1: I immediately was like, give me the fraud department, and 511 00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:23,280 Speaker 1: so through that process, they told me to file police report, 512 00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:26,280 Speaker 1: and so I did. I went to the police and 513 00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:29,119 Speaker 1: I filed the report. Who wants to file a police 514 00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:32,320 Speaker 1: report against their father? You know? I didn't want to 515 00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:34,639 Speaker 1: put my dad in jail, Like, I really didn't like. 516 00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:36,280 Speaker 1: I didn't want to be the kind of person who 517 00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:36,720 Speaker 1: did that. 518 00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:40,720 Speaker 2: We've seen these police reports and filing them wasn't easy 519 00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:41,120 Speaker 2: for Heather. 520 00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:44,280 Speaker 1: As soon as I said it was my dad, they 521 00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:46,880 Speaker 1: were like, well, how else were you supposed to get 522 00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:51,160 Speaker 1: an education? I had to provide copies of my signature. 523 00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:53,920 Speaker 1: That was actually really hard because I had to go 524 00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:58,200 Speaker 1: through old, old, old paperwork. They needed signed and dated 525 00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:00,720 Speaker 1: from within the time that the occurred. 526 00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:04,760 Speaker 2: Through the process of filing a police report, Heather learned 527 00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:09,080 Speaker 2: more about the fraudulent loans. She discovered that her actual 528 00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:12,640 Speaker 2: signature was on one of the loans. She didn't know about. 529 00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:16,160 Speaker 2: When she saw the date of the signature, it jogged 530 00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:16,719 Speaker 2: her memory. 531 00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:19,160 Speaker 1: It was something that my father had said was a 532 00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:22,920 Speaker 1: gift for my grandfather, a check that was made out 533 00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:26,640 Speaker 1: to me that turned out to be one of these loans. 534 00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:29,720 Speaker 1: He didn't present me with a loan. He presented me 535 00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:31,920 Speaker 1: with a check and was like, this is a gift. 536 00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:34,560 Speaker 1: You just have to endorse it, which I did. 537 00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:39,440 Speaker 2: She was held responsible for that one. After the police report, 538 00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:43,600 Speaker 2: the debt collectors stopped calling and sending mail about the loans. 539 00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:48,239 Speaker 3: Months later, I got the letter back saying that the 540 00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:52,920 Speaker 3: loans had been written off except for three and those 541 00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:58,520 Speaker 3: can remain on my credit report forever. I can't imagine 542 00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:00,360 Speaker 3: being out of debt anytime soon. 543 00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:04,680 Speaker 2: Her dad was never arrested or charged for the fraud. 544 00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:08,240 Speaker 2: She's still left wondering how he was able to get 545 00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:08,880 Speaker 2: away with it. 546 00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:12,800 Speaker 1: There were five states involved, and my dad is also 547 00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:16,400 Speaker 1: really smart, and I'm guessing he probably knew this, and 548 00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:20,240 Speaker 1: maybe that's why they ended up moving to Massachusetts. So suddenly, 549 00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:24,560 Speaker 1: I think that he had an overarching plan for how 550 00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:26,160 Speaker 1: this was going to occur and how he was going 551 00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:27,000 Speaker 1: to get out of it. 552 00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:34,120 Speaker 2: The fraudulent loans had a lasting impact on Heather's finances. 553 00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:37,920 Speaker 2: It impacted her ability to buy a car, rent an apartment, 554 00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:42,000 Speaker 2: or take out a credit card. Today, nearly twenty years later, 555 00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:45,080 Speaker 2: she's still working towards financial stability. 556 00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:50,320 Speaker 1: The repercussions of this financial devastation are huge. They're going 557 00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:55,200 Speaker 1: to reverberate forever. Once you are in a hole, it's 558 00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:58,720 Speaker 1: really hard to get out. It's like being buried alive. 559 00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:03,680 Speaker 2: But this isn't the end of Heather's story of betrayal. 560 00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:07,320 Speaker 2: For a decade after she ended her relationship with her dad, 561 00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:10,960 Speaker 2: she remained close with her mother, and life moved on. 562 00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:13,760 Speaker 2: She met the love of her life and got married. 563 00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:17,360 Speaker 2: Her mom was even at her wedding. But one day, 564 00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:20,720 Speaker 2: just a few years ago, all of that changed. 565 00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:23,920 Speaker 1: My wife and I decided to move back to her mind. 566 00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:28,959 Speaker 1: As we were moving into our apartment, I had all 567 00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:32,800 Speaker 1: my identity theft paperwork and I was looking through it 568 00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:37,959 Speaker 1: and I opened the envelope where all the forged disbursement 569 00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:41,360 Speaker 1: checks were, and I hadn't really looked through them. I 570 00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:44,160 Speaker 1: had like seen like the first one, and I saw 571 00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:48,040 Speaker 1: my dad's handwriting like forging my name, and I started 572 00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:51,040 Speaker 1: looking like kind of laughing about it, like wow, Nashle 573 00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:54,960 Speaker 1: and I go through and on like the third or 574 00:31:54,960 --> 00:32:00,000 Speaker 1: fourth page, I saw different handwriting and I recognized it immediately. 575 00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:05,560 Speaker 1: That was my mom's handwriting it, so my mom forging 576 00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:11,160 Speaker 1: my name. As soon as I saw that, my whole 577 00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:17,760 Speaker 1: reality changed. My whole soul just shattered. I was broken 578 00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:21,480 Speaker 1: to a thousand pieces because it just changed the narrative 579 00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:27,080 Speaker 1: for me, Like my mom wasn't this victim, she was 580 00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:32,040 Speaker 1: his accomplice. 581 00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:35,080 Speaker 2: She thought her dad was the one behind the fraud. 582 00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:41,280 Speaker 2: For her entire life, Heather had been manipulated into seeing 583 00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:45,320 Speaker 2: her mom as a victim. She'd spent decades feeling protective 584 00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:49,040 Speaker 2: over her mother, supporting her and hoping that she would 585 00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:51,240 Speaker 2: finally find the strength to leave her dad. 586 00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:55,120 Speaker 1: And it shifted my perspective on all those times that 587 00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:59,520 Speaker 1: my dad got away with stuff and she wouldn't leave, 588 00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:02,560 Speaker 1: And I started to think, like, was he getting away 589 00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:06,640 Speaker 1: with it or was my mom like helping him out. 590 00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:09,360 Speaker 2: Of the one hundred and twenty four thousand dollars, her 591 00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:12,520 Speaker 2: parents would have only spent forty thousand on her education, 592 00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:16,480 Speaker 2: So what did they do with the rest of the money. 593 00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:20,360 Speaker 1: They were definitely living on it. When I think about 594 00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:23,600 Speaker 1: the nice place they lived in in Boston, I feel like, oh, 595 00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:26,640 Speaker 1: maybe I was funding that, you know, any help then 596 00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:29,600 Speaker 1: might have given me, like it was actually me maybe 597 00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:30,320 Speaker 1: paying for it. 598 00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:34,560 Speaker 2: Her mom finally achieved her own dream of living in Boston, 599 00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:40,160 Speaker 2: and she did it by nearly destroying Heather's life. That's 600 00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:43,240 Speaker 2: why she wasn't so upset when Heather went to college. 601 00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:46,280 Speaker 2: She and her husband were taking out fraudulent loans in 602 00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:51,000 Speaker 2: Heather's name and using them to fund their new Boston apartment, 603 00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:54,040 Speaker 2: and it left Heather on the hook for a hefty 604 00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:56,920 Speaker 2: six figure sum. If she had known that her parents 605 00:33:57,000 --> 00:34:00,640 Speaker 2: couldn't make the tuition payments, she could have applied for scholarships, 606 00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:04,000 Speaker 2: but her parents wanted the money not to pay tuition, 607 00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:08,279 Speaker 2: but to live off of and live the life they 608 00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:12,480 Speaker 2: really wanted to. Heather thought about calling her mom to 609 00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:15,799 Speaker 2: confront her, but when she played out the conversation in 610 00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:16,680 Speaker 2: her head. 611 00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:23,000 Speaker 1: They knew that if I were to confront her, nobody 612 00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:25,640 Speaker 1: was going to tell me the truth. She was willing 613 00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:28,680 Speaker 1: to go this far for this long, and she knew 614 00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:31,680 Speaker 1: she was an accomplice. There was nothing more to be said. 615 00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:35,560 Speaker 1: She knew how devastating this had been, so I just 616 00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:40,359 Speaker 1: stopped responding to her. She would text and call, and 617 00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:43,800 Speaker 1: I just never texted or called back. After a while, 618 00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:46,399 Speaker 1: she just stopped trying to contact me, and I never 619 00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:47,200 Speaker 1: contacted her. 620 00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:52,520 Speaker 2: That was it. In twenty twenty three, she learned that 621 00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:57,200 Speaker 2: her mother had passed away. She says it's a complicated 622 00:34:57,239 --> 00:35:01,680 Speaker 2: grieving process, especially when she tries to explain her story 623 00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:02,560 Speaker 2: to new people. 624 00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:06,200 Speaker 1: A lot of times people are like, oh, were they desperate, 625 00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:09,080 Speaker 1: Like maybe they were like really desperate for something, And 626 00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:13,960 Speaker 1: it's like, I actually think they just enjoyed it. The thrill, 627 00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:18,200 Speaker 1: the adrenaline rush of having to run all the time, 628 00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:22,280 Speaker 1: or having to avoid debt collectors, or just the thrill 629 00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:24,600 Speaker 1: of seeing whether or not I'll find out or what 630 00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:28,280 Speaker 1: I'll do when I find out. It was like psychological warfare. 631 00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:31,000 Speaker 1: So I wouldn't put it past them that it was 632 00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:33,120 Speaker 1: more like an experiment or something. 633 00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:36,400 Speaker 2: Heather has been in therapy for years unpacking the trauma 634 00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:37,760 Speaker 2: her parents put her through. 635 00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:41,319 Speaker 1: When I think about my dad, oh well, he is 636 00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:43,040 Speaker 1: a sociopath, he is a criminal. 637 00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:46,959 Speaker 2: She's also learning to find the words for what she experienced, 638 00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:53,239 Speaker 2: words like familial fraud and abuse. Heather is leaning on 639 00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:57,279 Speaker 2: her chosen family, starting with her wife. Today, she's a 640 00:35:57,360 --> 00:36:00,839 Speaker 2: music teacher and musician in Vermont and her wife are 641 00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:04,600 Speaker 2: in the process of building their own house. She's also 642 00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:08,280 Speaker 2: found healing through writing. She's working on a book about 643 00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:08,960 Speaker 2: her story. 644 00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:13,120 Speaker 1: The idea of writing the truth for me as a 645 00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:16,880 Speaker 1: kid was really daunting because it's like I wasn't allowed 646 00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:21,920 Speaker 1: to tell the truth. Shame around telling the truth stuck 647 00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:25,600 Speaker 1: with me for a long time. But the process of 648 00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:31,280 Speaker 1: writing it started out as a catharsis and has since 649 00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:37,160 Speaker 1: become more of an artistic process where I am learning 650 00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:42,799 Speaker 1: to make meaning from that pain. So, yeah, anybody wants 651 00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:47,120 Speaker 1: to publish it, that'd be awesome. 652 00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:50,840 Speaker 2: We end all of our weekly episodes with the same question, 653 00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:53,880 Speaker 2: why did you want to tell your story? 654 00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:57,880 Speaker 1: I think that people need permission to remove themselves from 655 00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:02,319 Speaker 1: family systems that aren't safe and to understand anger is 656 00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:06,000 Speaker 1: a healthy and appropriate emotion when people do this kind 657 00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:09,640 Speaker 1: of stuff to you. I mean, we talk about forgiveness, 658 00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:14,360 Speaker 1: and I think it's because society doesn't want to grapple 659 00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:17,040 Speaker 1: with the uncomfortable truth that there are some things that 660 00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:21,200 Speaker 1: are just unforgivable and the emotional repercussions from those things 661 00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:25,719 Speaker 1: are very real. Everything in my life was a lie. 662 00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:29,680 Speaker 1: But telling the truth about the story and then maybe 663 00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:33,239 Speaker 1: other people seeing their reflection in my story and that 664 00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:36,680 Speaker 1: sense of connection, I feel like it helps with that 665 00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:41,799 Speaker 1: feeling of isolation. Telling the story allows me to be 666 00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:43,320 Speaker 1: my most authentic self. 667 00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:48,880 Speaker 2: On the next episode of Betrayal. 668 00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:54,160 Speaker 1: He had bamboozled a physician and if he treat her, 669 00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:56,000 Speaker 1: what else had he come up with. 670 00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:04,240 Speaker 2: If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal 671 00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:07,160 Speaker 2: team or want to tell us your Betrayal story, email 672 00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:11,520 Speaker 2: us at betrayalpod at gmail dot com. That's Betrayal pod 673 00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:16,040 Speaker 2: at gmail dot com. We're grateful for your support. One 674 00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:18,359 Speaker 2: way to show support is by subscribing to our show 675 00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:21,520 Speaker 2: on Apple Podcasts and don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. 676 00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:24,919 Speaker 2: Five star reviews go a long way. A big thank 677 00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:28,400 Speaker 2: you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production 678 00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:31,239 Speaker 2: of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group, in 679 00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:35,040 Speaker 2: partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by 680 00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:38,560 Speaker 2: Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fason, hosted and produced by me 681 00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:43,440 Speaker 2: Andrea Gunning, written and produced by Monique Leboard, also produced 682 00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:48,200 Speaker 2: by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Kristin Mercury and Caitlin Golden. 683 00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:52,920 Speaker 2: Our iHeart team is Ali Perry and Jessica Krinchek. Audio 684 00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:56,799 Speaker 2: editing and mixing by Matt Delvechio, Additional editing support from 685 00:38:56,880 --> 00:39:02,560 Speaker 2: Nico Aruka. Betrayal's theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library 686 00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:06,560 Speaker 2: provided by Mob Music and For more podcasts from iHeart, 687 00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:10,279 Speaker 2: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get 688 00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:12,400 Speaker 2: your podcasts