1 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:06,519 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You from how Supports 2 00:00:06,519 --> 00:00:14,520 Speaker 1: dot Com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen 3 00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:17,560 Speaker 1: and I'm Caroline, and this week we're talking about themes 4 00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:21,000 Speaker 1: on friendship and last on the podcast we talked about 5 00:00:21,079 --> 00:00:24,319 Speaker 1: shine theory and success in competition in women's friendships, and 6 00:00:24,360 --> 00:00:27,600 Speaker 1: now we're going to switch our focus to the gay 7 00:00:27,720 --> 00:00:33,600 Speaker 1: best friend, both the trope and also these actual relationships 8 00:00:33,640 --> 00:00:37,479 Speaker 1: between straight women and gay men and other kinds of 9 00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:41,760 Speaker 1: cross sex and cross orientation friendships. Yeah, it's been super 10 00:00:41,800 --> 00:00:45,760 Speaker 1: interesting looking at these sources and just charting the evolution 11 00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:49,760 Speaker 1: of not only the perception of gay people in our 12 00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:52,840 Speaker 1: country and what that meant for friendships at the time, 13 00:00:53,280 --> 00:00:56,320 Speaker 1: but then seeing how they are now. When you when 14 00:00:56,320 --> 00:00:59,560 Speaker 1: you look at shows like Will and Grace or Sex 15 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:03,160 Speaker 1: in the City and how the leading ladies had their 16 00:01:03,360 --> 00:01:05,960 Speaker 1: gay friends who were almost treated like pets. They were 17 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:09,440 Speaker 1: completely sexually neutered and expected to just be accessories. And 18 00:01:09,480 --> 00:01:11,520 Speaker 1: then you move forward in time and look at a 19 00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:15,759 Speaker 1: show like Girls where Hannah and Elijah are super bff. 20 00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:18,880 Speaker 1: Granted they did date back in the day, but it's 21 00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:22,479 Speaker 1: it is very interesting to look at how this has 22 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:25,760 Speaker 1: evolved as the perception of gay people in America has 23 00:01:25,800 --> 00:01:28,840 Speaker 1: evolved as well well, and when it comes to sort 24 00:01:28,840 --> 00:01:32,600 Speaker 1: of a pop cultural timeline of it, the late nineties 25 00:01:32,840 --> 00:01:38,520 Speaker 1: is when this gay best friend trope really sunk it's 26 00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:45,919 Speaker 1: claws into film and television, starting with My Best Friend's Wedding. 27 00:01:46,319 --> 00:01:49,360 Speaker 1: I remember watching My best Friend's Wedding when I was 28 00:01:49,680 --> 00:01:52,200 Speaker 1: a younger girl. I don't know how what it was, 29 00:01:52,240 --> 00:01:55,040 Speaker 1: but I was old enough to look at Rupert Everett 30 00:01:55,080 --> 00:01:59,360 Speaker 1: and be like, I screw that straight guy, Julia Roberts 31 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:03,280 Speaker 1: and you I really wanted Rupert Everett and Julia Roberts 32 00:02:03,280 --> 00:02:06,560 Speaker 1: at the end of the film to leave the wedding 33 00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:10,320 Speaker 1: and then make a life together, because he just used 34 00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:12,359 Speaker 1: to say they didn't. I know, it just wouldn't be 35 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:14,000 Speaker 1: that kind of life that you were hoping. They would 36 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:16,760 Speaker 1: have an unconventional life, yes, but did be near him 37 00:02:17,320 --> 00:02:20,400 Speaker 1: a okay? And in the following year, in You have 38 00:02:20,800 --> 00:02:24,080 Speaker 1: the premiere of not only Will and Grace also Sex 39 00:02:24,080 --> 00:02:26,840 Speaker 1: in the City, as well as the Object of My 40 00:02:26,919 --> 00:02:31,760 Speaker 1: Affection starring Jennifer Aniston and Paul Rudd, who it plays 41 00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:34,280 Speaker 1: the gay best friend in that one. And yes, I've 42 00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:37,160 Speaker 1: also seen that movie apparently I really enjoy these kinds 43 00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:41,079 Speaker 1: of films, and that's almost become its own mini genre 44 00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:45,840 Speaker 1: of the straight single or recently broken up with straight 45 00:02:45,919 --> 00:02:49,760 Speaker 1: girl pining away for her male gay best friend, because 46 00:02:49,760 --> 00:02:52,359 Speaker 1: then in two thousand you also have the next best thing, 47 00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:56,080 Speaker 1: which is a similar kind of set up. And Thomas 48 00:02:56,160 --> 00:02:59,040 Speaker 1: Rogers over at Salon did point out that Will and 49 00:02:59,080 --> 00:03:02,440 Speaker 1: Grace had many positive effects for him as a gay 50 00:03:02,480 --> 00:03:04,880 Speaker 1: man coming out during that era, and also for many 51 00:03:04,880 --> 00:03:07,440 Speaker 1: other gay men who were kind of looking around it 52 00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:10,240 Speaker 1: how to be, how do I act? What do I do? 53 00:03:10,320 --> 00:03:13,240 Speaker 1: And so Will and Grace had the benefit of being like, hey, 54 00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:16,560 Speaker 1: you can be accepted by people in society and not 55 00:03:16,639 --> 00:03:21,000 Speaker 1: be shamed. But the downside he was saying was that, 56 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:24,720 Speaker 1: like I pointed out earlier, the gay characters in that show, 57 00:03:25,280 --> 00:03:27,560 Speaker 1: we're totally neutered. He's I think he said, they were 58 00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:31,720 Speaker 1: as sexual as a pastel card again, and the friendship 59 00:03:31,919 --> 00:03:34,960 Speaker 1: has become a trope essentially. But I didn't think it 60 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:37,200 Speaker 1: was interesting when a few seasons in they bring in 61 00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:41,840 Speaker 1: this sexy young boyfriend for him, which maybe I don't know, 62 00:03:41,880 --> 00:03:44,560 Speaker 1: maybe was their effort to make him into more of 63 00:03:44,600 --> 00:03:49,440 Speaker 1: a human person and actual like three dimensional, performed human 64 00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:51,960 Speaker 1: who was desirable. But that was the whole the whole 65 00:03:52,040 --> 00:03:55,880 Speaker 1: joke too, of like this guy's going for Stanford, how 66 00:03:56,040 --> 00:04:00,640 Speaker 1: is that possible? But anyway, Uh, this whole though, even 67 00:04:00,680 --> 00:04:05,000 Speaker 1: though it seemed to blossom in the nineties the late nineties, 68 00:04:05,280 --> 00:04:08,000 Speaker 1: it's been around for a long time, just that very 69 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:13,200 Speaker 1: basic assumption that straight women and gay men are essentially 70 00:04:13,440 --> 00:04:16,120 Speaker 1: made for each other. And this also jumped out to 71 00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:20,120 Speaker 1: me when I was researching for this podcast and I 72 00:04:20,160 --> 00:04:23,279 Speaker 1: was on the side reading Catla Moran's How to Be 73 00:04:23,320 --> 00:04:26,479 Speaker 1: a Woman, and she writes at one point, at eighteen, 74 00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:29,560 Speaker 1: I'm discovering what generations of women have long known that 75 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:32,080 Speaker 1: the natural ally of a straight woman is the gay 76 00:04:32,120 --> 00:04:36,440 Speaker 1: man because they are other losers, to which I mean 77 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:40,240 Speaker 1: that kind of sums up our assumptions about this relationship. Yeah, 78 00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:43,159 Speaker 1: they are both outside the norm and the dominant social 79 00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:48,640 Speaker 1: construct being you know, the white man, the white straight man. Um. Well, 80 00:04:48,680 --> 00:04:51,640 Speaker 1: we found some interesting points about the origins of what 81 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:54,600 Speaker 1: would become this this major trope in this paper called 82 00:04:54,640 --> 00:04:58,320 Speaker 1: fast Friends and Queer Couples, Relationships between gay men and 83 00:04:58,440 --> 00:05:01,240 Speaker 1: straight women in North American put bular culture from nineteen 84 00:05:01,279 --> 00:05:05,479 Speaker 1: fifty nine to two thousand by James Allen. And Allen 85 00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:08,440 Speaker 1: points out that since the late nineteenth century, a lot 86 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:12,760 Speaker 1: of researchers have seen commonalities, as we just said, between 87 00:05:12,880 --> 00:05:16,000 Speaker 1: gay men and straight women in terms of being the other. 88 00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:19,160 Speaker 1: So when did these relationships really start to pop up 89 00:05:19,160 --> 00:05:23,640 Speaker 1: on screen. Well, in the late nineteen fifties we get 90 00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:26,880 Speaker 1: the weakening of the Hayes Code. Now, the Hayese Code 91 00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:29,160 Speaker 1: proceeded like the rating system for movies, which is like 92 00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:32,240 Speaker 1: rated are rated PG. It was basically a set of 93 00:05:32,279 --> 00:05:35,440 Speaker 1: moral guidelines for the film industry that was in effect 94 00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:38,159 Speaker 1: from nineteen thirty to nineteen sixty eight. But when it 95 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:42,040 Speaker 1: started to major league weekend in the fifties, Hollywood began 96 00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:47,080 Speaker 1: showing these relationships between straight women and openly gay men 97 00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:51,000 Speaker 1: more prominently on screen. And if they weren't openly gay, 98 00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:53,680 Speaker 1: they were kind of wink wink, nudge nudge game. They're 99 00:05:53,720 --> 00:05:57,920 Speaker 1: always like the the interior designer man friend who can 100 00:05:57,960 --> 00:06:00,800 Speaker 1: be playful with this woman who has a boyfriend and 101 00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:05,680 Speaker 1: her boyfriend won't get upset. Um and Alan categorizes these 102 00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:09,960 Speaker 1: kinds of relationships into mother and son, the perfect couples, 103 00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:12,440 Speaker 1: kind of like Will and Grace, and also the Gals 104 00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:14,600 Speaker 1: and Pals, which is a little more Carrie Bradshaw and 105 00:06:14,680 --> 00:06:20,200 Speaker 1: Stanford Blatch, But they've always been so steeped and stereotypes 106 00:06:20,440 --> 00:06:26,039 Speaker 1: because underlying a lot of this historically are bigoted assumptions 107 00:06:26,320 --> 00:06:28,520 Speaker 1: that gay means secretly want to be women, that they 108 00:06:28,560 --> 00:06:32,600 Speaker 1: identify more with the female experience, and that women who 109 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:36,640 Speaker 1: associate with gay men simply aren't sexy enough to get 110 00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:39,560 Speaker 1: straight men to fall in love with them, find them attractive, 111 00:06:39,760 --> 00:06:44,039 Speaker 1: and that they derive their self esteem from gay men's compliments. 112 00:06:44,080 --> 00:06:49,040 Speaker 1: So I mean this, this trope has a lot of baggage. 113 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:51,240 Speaker 1: It has a lot of negative things to say about 114 00:06:51,279 --> 00:06:54,240 Speaker 1: everyone involved. Basically, Yeah, and I want to clarify that 115 00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:56,760 Speaker 1: we're talking about the trope, We're not talking about these 116 00:06:56,800 --> 00:07:00,120 Speaker 1: actual relationships that do exist in the real world off 117 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:03,400 Speaker 1: screen between gay men and straight women. But I mean, 118 00:07:03,480 --> 00:07:06,719 Speaker 1: speaking of that, let's dive into those real, actual human 119 00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:11,600 Speaker 1: relationships and find out what researchers say, because I mean, obviously, yes, 120 00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:14,520 Speaker 1: these friendships do exist, they do happen, They're not just 121 00:07:14,600 --> 00:07:20,160 Speaker 1: a pop culture television phenomenon, and research support that these 122 00:07:20,320 --> 00:07:24,560 Speaker 1: cross sex and cross orientation friendships do happen from a 123 00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:27,600 Speaker 1: young age. Yeah. There was a paper published in Social 124 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:31,760 Speaker 1: science Research in called Patterns of Cross Orientation Friendships in 125 00:07:31,840 --> 00:07:36,280 Speaker 1: high School and it confirmed that among all gender combinations 126 00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:40,680 Speaker 1: in cross friendships in other words, boy girl friendships quote 127 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:44,240 Speaker 1: those between straight females and sexual minority males, which is 128 00:07:44,280 --> 00:07:47,720 Speaker 1: perhaps the most clinical way of saying a gay guys 129 00:07:48,360 --> 00:07:51,240 Speaker 1: have received a great amount of attention in previous research. 130 00:07:51,760 --> 00:07:55,200 Speaker 1: The scholarly interests perhaps reflect the high rate of friendships 131 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:58,400 Speaker 1: in the gender combination. And they point to a two 132 00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:02,400 Speaker 1: thousand to study which found that gay boys tend to 133 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:08,240 Speaker 1: have more female friends than straight boys, although lesbians, younger 134 00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:13,160 Speaker 1: lesbians do not necessarily have more male friends than straight 135 00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:15,400 Speaker 1: females do. And we'll come back to that in a minute, 136 00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:18,640 Speaker 1: because that was a big question in our research of well, 137 00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:21,960 Speaker 1: we have this focus on this cross sex, cross gender 138 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:24,760 Speaker 1: gay men, straight women, but what about like gay women 139 00:08:24,800 --> 00:08:27,040 Speaker 1: and straight guys, and straight guys and gay guys, what 140 00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:30,200 Speaker 1: about all the other combinations? Right, And so they point 141 00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:33,760 Speaker 1: out that these sexual minority students, so to speak, seemed 142 00:08:33,800 --> 00:08:36,959 Speaker 1: to be largely cut off from one another at school. 143 00:08:37,520 --> 00:08:41,600 Speaker 1: They're not only small numbers, but there's also a concerted 144 00:08:41,600 --> 00:08:45,360 Speaker 1: effort to reduce visibility. I mean, middle school is hard enough, 145 00:08:45,679 --> 00:08:47,920 Speaker 1: you know, without feeling like you're about to be bullied 146 00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:52,000 Speaker 1: because you are of that sexual minority as they talk about. 147 00:08:52,559 --> 00:08:55,839 Speaker 1: And Kristen, you mentioned all of the different basically combinations 148 00:08:55,960 --> 00:08:59,520 Speaker 1: of these different friendships. And they also found that straight 149 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:02,959 Speaker 1: girl are more likely to have cross orientation cross sexual 150 00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:06,600 Speaker 1: orientation friendships than straight boys are. And so if we 151 00:09:06,679 --> 00:09:10,880 Speaker 1: look to another study which is called Beyond Similarities Cross 152 00:09:10,920 --> 00:09:13,440 Speaker 1: Gender and Cross Orientation Best Friendship and a sample of 153 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:16,360 Speaker 1: sexual minority and heterosexual young adults in the journal Sex Roles, 154 00:09:17,880 --> 00:09:22,200 Speaker 1: they also pointed to the differences in straight girls friendships 155 00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:27,840 Speaker 1: and straight boys friendships with people of cross orientations. And 156 00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:32,000 Speaker 1: so they found that gay men reported more cross gender 157 00:09:32,040 --> 00:09:36,120 Speaker 1: friendships than lesbians did, while straight girls reported a higher 158 00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:40,400 Speaker 1: percentage of cross gender best friendships than straight boys did. 159 00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:44,560 Speaker 1: So it's basically confirming what the previous study found. So yeah, 160 00:09:44,640 --> 00:09:47,600 Speaker 1: I mean, in a nutshell, girls are just likelier to 161 00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:52,240 Speaker 1: have strong friendships with gay boys and boys are likelier 162 00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:56,760 Speaker 1: to have strong friendships with girls. Yeah, I mean it 163 00:09:56,760 --> 00:10:00,720 Speaker 1: seems like straight boys are friends with straight boys. Yeah, 164 00:10:00,760 --> 00:10:03,679 Speaker 1: I mean kind of there is that that isolation. And yeah, 165 00:10:03,679 --> 00:10:06,280 Speaker 1: as we'll talk about, like you know the series Lesbians 166 00:10:06,320 --> 00:10:08,880 Speaker 1: are going to be Friends with lesbians, Straight boys are 167 00:10:08,880 --> 00:10:12,040 Speaker 1: friends of straight boys, and then gay boys are friends 168 00:10:12,040 --> 00:10:14,960 Speaker 1: and then there's the rest of us and we mixed 169 00:10:14,960 --> 00:10:17,280 Speaker 1: and mingle. And I will say that that pattern was 170 00:10:17,559 --> 00:10:21,800 Speaker 1: very much reflected in my high school. I mean I 171 00:10:21,840 --> 00:10:24,640 Speaker 1: had a pretty small graduating class. It was easy to 172 00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:29,520 Speaker 1: see and there was only one out gay guy in 173 00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:33,559 Speaker 1: our class, and he only really hung out with girls. 174 00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:36,280 Speaker 1: I mean he would hang out with the guys sometimes, 175 00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:39,240 Speaker 1: but they were merciless. Yeah, it was the same. Yeah, 176 00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:41,000 Speaker 1: it was the same. In my high school, I had 177 00:10:41,040 --> 00:10:43,920 Speaker 1: a gay friend who actually got chased out of school 178 00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:47,400 Speaker 1: by the popular boys. It was just just a sad, 179 00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:50,800 Speaker 1: unfortunate situation because he was part of the popular boy group. 180 00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:53,400 Speaker 1: They found out he was gay, they bullied him until 181 00:10:53,400 --> 00:10:55,960 Speaker 1: he left school. But up until then, well he had 182 00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:58,280 Speaker 1: been part of that group. The core of his friend 183 00:10:58,280 --> 00:11:02,520 Speaker 1: group had been girls, and so it was horrible to 184 00:11:02,559 --> 00:11:06,520 Speaker 1: see that the one boy who was able to try 185 00:11:06,520 --> 00:11:09,640 Speaker 1: to come out just it was he was not successful. 186 00:11:09,880 --> 00:11:12,360 Speaker 1: And while I have a feeling that for people who 187 00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:17,640 Speaker 1: are in high school today that kind of outright bigotry 188 00:11:17,679 --> 00:11:20,600 Speaker 1: and homophobia is not as bad as it used to be, 189 00:11:20,679 --> 00:11:22,679 Speaker 1: even when you and I were in high school, not 190 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:26,840 Speaker 1: so long ago. But this study, I mean, it's from 191 00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:29,880 Speaker 1: two thousand and fourteen supports that those kinds of patterns 192 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:35,520 Speaker 1: still exists, which is interesting. And one thing that further 193 00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:41,560 Speaker 1: studies have suggested is that these friendships between gay men 194 00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:44,880 Speaker 1: and straight women are also mutually beneficial. And this was 195 00:11:44,920 --> 00:11:47,320 Speaker 1: something that Thomas Rogers was pointing out over at Salon, 196 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:51,719 Speaker 1: speaking more too in this instance of gay straight friendships 197 00:11:51,720 --> 00:11:54,680 Speaker 1: and more of the pre Stone Wall era, saying quote, 198 00:11:54,760 --> 00:11:59,000 Speaker 1: men got the appearance of heterosexual legitimacy and intimacy free 199 00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:01,960 Speaker 1: of sexual tension. Women got a touch of glamour and 200 00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:06,199 Speaker 1: performance and exoticism. And so when it comes to that 201 00:12:06,640 --> 00:12:12,599 Speaker 1: glamour and performance and exoticism, and this this mutually beneficial relationships. Supposedly, 202 00:12:12,840 --> 00:12:15,880 Speaker 1: this was something that a study publishing The General Body 203 00:12:15,920 --> 00:12:20,000 Speaker 1: Image looked into in two thousand nine study title the 204 00:12:20,040 --> 00:12:24,520 Speaker 1: Relation between Women's Body Esteem and Friendships with Gay Men, 205 00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:29,000 Speaker 1: and its results supported the hypothesis that women's body esteem, 206 00:12:29,280 --> 00:12:34,880 Speaker 1: specifically feelings of sexual attractiveness, was positively associated with friendships 207 00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:41,600 Speaker 1: with gay men, but correlation causation not clarified. Right, as 208 00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:45,600 Speaker 1: Jesse bearing Over Scientific American pointed out, there was absolutely 209 00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:49,320 Speaker 1: no link between a woman's relationship status, the number of 210 00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:51,400 Speaker 1: times she'd been on the receiving end of a breakup, 211 00:12:51,720 --> 00:12:54,559 Speaker 1: or her body esteem, and the number of gay male 212 00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:58,640 Speaker 1: friends in her life. Still, the longer that a woman 213 00:12:58,679 --> 00:13:01,040 Speaker 1: has been friends with her closest gamail friend, they found, 214 00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:03,920 Speaker 1: the lower her perceived sexual attractiveness. But this is I 215 00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:07,120 Speaker 1: mean again, this is all correlation. Because also you could think, 216 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:09,239 Speaker 1: and this is the first thing I thought, well, like, okay, 217 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:11,679 Speaker 1: the longer a woman has been friends with someone, the 218 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:15,280 Speaker 1: lower her esteem body esteem. Well, like, also that means 219 00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:18,120 Speaker 1: you're getting older, which means that you might naturally feel 220 00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:21,679 Speaker 1: bad about things that are sagging. I don't know exactly. Yeah, 221 00:13:21,960 --> 00:13:25,800 Speaker 1: I mean that is why it is so important to 222 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:31,040 Speaker 1: read studies when you can, because I mean, it's yeah, 223 00:13:31,160 --> 00:13:33,120 Speaker 1: especially in the case of this, it's like, who who 224 00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:36,760 Speaker 1: knows if the reason why they felt greater sexual self 225 00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:39,640 Speaker 1: esteem was just because they had a circle of gay 226 00:13:39,640 --> 00:13:44,040 Speaker 1: men all just like dolling out compliments all day long. Um. 227 00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:47,000 Speaker 1: But one study though in two thousand and ten publishing 228 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:51,280 Speaker 1: The journal Evolutionary Psychology essentially went viral when it came out. 229 00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:56,280 Speaker 1: It's title is friends with Benefits but without the sex. 230 00:13:56,800 --> 00:14:01,360 Speaker 1: Straight women and gay men exchange trusted data advice, and 231 00:14:01,559 --> 00:14:07,319 Speaker 1: it suggests that these relationships flourish because there is no 232 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:12,079 Speaker 1: sexual threat. So that's good for straight women. We can 233 00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:14,160 Speaker 1: have these relationships with these men who do not want 234 00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:16,200 Speaker 1: to have sex with us, and so that makes life 235 00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:20,480 Speaker 1: so much easier. And meanwhile, straight women offer the benefit 236 00:14:20,720 --> 00:14:24,760 Speaker 1: of possibly providing access to other gay men for their 237 00:14:24,800 --> 00:14:30,400 Speaker 1: gay friends to meet, and also swapping, as the study 238 00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:33,800 Speaker 1: title implies, or what it doesn't imply. As the study 239 00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:37,360 Speaker 1: title states, we can swap dating advice because we're all 240 00:14:37,640 --> 00:14:39,880 Speaker 1: we're all going for men, so we're all, you know, 241 00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:42,400 Speaker 1: but not the same men, so we're not in competition. 242 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:45,400 Speaker 1: There's no sexual threat. There's no competition. I mean, what 243 00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:49,920 Speaker 1: more perfect relationship could you get? Right, basically that we 244 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:52,680 Speaker 1: both love getting dating advice from each other because there 245 00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:55,120 Speaker 1: are no ulterior motives. You can get a male perspective 246 00:14:55,160 --> 00:14:58,320 Speaker 1: without any sort of bias. You know, you can get 247 00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:00,280 Speaker 1: a male perspective, but he's not trying to date you 248 00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:02,320 Speaker 1: and keep you from the other man that you like 249 00:15:02,520 --> 00:15:04,920 Speaker 1: and vices, and he wouldn't be able to try to 250 00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:07,840 Speaker 1: date the straight guy that you're going for. But there 251 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:11,520 Speaker 1: were also some experimental limitations with a study design as well, 252 00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:15,480 Speaker 1: because essentially the way they set it up was through 253 00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:20,800 Speaker 1: um Facebook profile setting up these face fake Facebook profiles 254 00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:25,360 Speaker 1: for I think it was an obviously straight guy, obviously 255 00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:29,280 Speaker 1: gay guy, and an obviously straight woman, and they set 256 00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:32,280 Speaker 1: up a scenario of having to go to a party 257 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:35,720 Speaker 1: and you don't know anyone, So who of these three 258 00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:38,880 Speaker 1: people and these fake Facebook profiles would you like to 259 00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:42,920 Speaker 1: go to this party with the most? And women were like, okay, guy, 260 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:45,600 Speaker 1: And then they did the same thing for the gay men. 261 00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:48,920 Speaker 1: UM so it's not I would be more curious to 262 00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:54,560 Speaker 1: get a little more real world interaction. Well, so, obviously, 263 00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:57,160 Speaker 1: what what this is showing us is that there are 264 00:15:57,200 --> 00:16:00,560 Speaker 1: a lot of benefits for these the people in these 265 00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:05,240 Speaker 1: relationships and that the pop culture phenomenon that is the 266 00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:09,760 Speaker 1: gay best friend is based in something real that actually happens. 267 00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:13,800 Speaker 1: But not all of these relationships are always super healthy. 268 00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:15,280 Speaker 1: And we're going to get into that when we come 269 00:16:15,400 --> 00:16:20,440 Speaker 1: right back from a quick break and now back to 270 00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:25,720 Speaker 1: the shop. So in the first half of the show, 271 00:16:25,920 --> 00:16:29,120 Speaker 1: we established the fact that yes, indeed, gay men and 272 00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:32,160 Speaker 1: straight women, as you and I can both personally attest, 273 00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:35,640 Speaker 1: do exist. And there have been studies on these relationships 274 00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:39,200 Speaker 1: because they seem to fascinate us endlessly, I think, because 275 00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:43,200 Speaker 1: I mean, people are constantly puzzling over this question of 276 00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:46,240 Speaker 1: can men and women be friends? And this is the 277 00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:49,160 Speaker 1: one cut and dried situation where it's like, oh, yeah, absolutely, 278 00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:52,400 Speaker 1: because there is none of that sexual tension. And then 279 00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:55,400 Speaker 1: when it comes to female female friendships, there's a question 280 00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:57,960 Speaker 1: of competition and jealousy if you're both coming from the 281 00:16:58,080 --> 00:17:01,680 Speaker 1: same guy, unless, of course she's a lesbian, where the 282 00:17:01,760 --> 00:17:04,840 Speaker 1: lesbians will get to them. But yeah, and before we 283 00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:08,480 Speaker 1: talk about the different combinations of all of these friendships 284 00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:11,119 Speaker 1: and the dynamics and what they mean and are they positive, 285 00:17:11,359 --> 00:17:13,520 Speaker 1: we do have to talk about some of the downsides 286 00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:18,800 Speaker 1: of the stereotypical gay man straight woman relationship. For instance, 287 00:17:18,840 --> 00:17:21,680 Speaker 1: the idea that straight women get to use gay men 288 00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:25,720 Speaker 1: as this accessory, this arm candy, this this party favor 289 00:17:26,119 --> 00:17:30,000 Speaker 1: to feel better about themselves, exercising a lot of privilege 290 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:32,520 Speaker 1: along the way. Yeah, and this is more speaking to 291 00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:38,560 Speaker 1: these relationships as reflected in pop culture and to almost 292 00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:41,719 Speaker 1: a trope extent, it's something. For instance, it comes up 293 00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:45,960 Speaker 1: a lot on shows like Real Housewives, where you have 294 00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:49,000 Speaker 1: the rich woman who loves to trot out her quote 295 00:17:49,040 --> 00:17:51,560 Speaker 1: unquote gay husband because he's so cute and fun and 296 00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:54,560 Speaker 1: her husband doesn't pay attention to her anyway. So thankfully 297 00:17:54,600 --> 00:17:58,359 Speaker 1: there's this one guy. And Thomas Rogers, who we've signed 298 00:17:58,359 --> 00:18:01,960 Speaker 1: a number of times now, wrote all about this in Salon, 299 00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:04,880 Speaker 1: at the headline of his piece being I'm not your 300 00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:08,000 Speaker 1: gay boyfriend. He said, quote, it feels like she's throwing 301 00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:10,399 Speaker 1: around a designer label or telling me she knows the 302 00:18:10,520 --> 00:18:16,400 Speaker 1: celebrity a kind of social conspicuous consumption. So there there 303 00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:20,200 Speaker 1: is some troubling factor that can exist in that more 304 00:18:20,280 --> 00:18:25,000 Speaker 1: in its portrayal I think on television rather than these 305 00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:28,760 Speaker 1: um well, and I'm sure sometimes in real life off 306 00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:32,160 Speaker 1: screen as well, because people are emulating those kinds of 307 00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:35,679 Speaker 1: statusy relationships, right. But you know, I mean, it's a 308 00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:38,320 Speaker 1: two way street if we're talking about using each other 309 00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:42,920 Speaker 1: and having privilege, because he also talks about gay men 310 00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:46,440 Speaker 1: getting to use their straight female friends as their own 311 00:18:46,520 --> 00:18:51,920 Speaker 1: accessories then exercising their own privilege, but this time male 312 00:18:51,920 --> 00:18:56,959 Speaker 1: privilege to the point of outright misogyny. Yeah. This was 313 00:18:57,119 --> 00:19:00,560 Speaker 1: something that Yolo Achilley wrote about over The Good Project 314 00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:04,040 Speaker 1: and got a lot of conversations started about this question 315 00:19:04,119 --> 00:19:07,680 Speaker 1: of gay male privilege, which might sound like it cannot 316 00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:12,959 Speaker 1: possibly exist well in the way Yolo wrote about it, quote, 317 00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:16,399 Speaker 1: the unique way our entitlement to women's physical bodies plays 318 00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:18,960 Speaker 1: itself out is only the tip of the iceberg when 319 00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:23,160 Speaker 1: it comes to gay cis gender men's sexism and privilege, 320 00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:26,600 Speaker 1: and goes on to talk about how in a class 321 00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:31,119 Speaker 1: he was leading, he was asking students, female students whether 322 00:19:31,119 --> 00:19:34,080 Speaker 1: they had ever been touched by a gay guy like 323 00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:38,840 Speaker 1: non consensually um, and a lot of them raise their hands, 324 00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:42,440 Speaker 1: and a lot had stories about, say, going out one 325 00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:47,119 Speaker 1: night and having their breasts grabbed, or the infamous incident 326 00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:50,800 Speaker 1: on the red carpet in two ten when Scarl Johansson 327 00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:54,160 Speaker 1: was talking to Isaac ms Rahi on the red carpet 328 00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:58,000 Speaker 1: at the Oscars and he grabbed her breast and she 329 00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:00,800 Speaker 1: was not happy about it. Yeah, yeah, I mean, I 330 00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:06,239 Speaker 1: can't imagine a scenario when she would be But that 331 00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:09,840 Speaker 1: whole thing has to do with the idea that gay men, 332 00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:12,520 Speaker 1: you know, aren't real men, the societal perception of gay 333 00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:15,920 Speaker 1: men being again totally neutered and safe, and so it's 334 00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:20,080 Speaker 1: not assault, it's not it's not offensive to have your 335 00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:24,760 Speaker 1: personal self, your physical self grabbed by someone else because 336 00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:28,240 Speaker 1: it's just a gay guy. And Achille was talking about 337 00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:29,760 Speaker 1: how a lot of game and see it as their 338 00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:33,720 Speaker 1: right to somehow be able to grope or offer advice 339 00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:37,199 Speaker 1: on women's bodies, like women's bodies are just an unfinished 340 00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:40,360 Speaker 1: painting that they can come in and critique and give 341 00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:44,240 Speaker 1: advice on. And I have a feeling too that this 342 00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:48,040 Speaker 1: also is a two way street in the sense of 343 00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:51,640 Speaker 1: there are gay men who don't really appreciate it when 344 00:20:51,680 --> 00:20:54,600 Speaker 1: a pack of drunk straight women walk into gay bars 345 00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:56,240 Speaker 1: and want to take over and be the centers of 346 00:20:56,280 --> 00:20:59,600 Speaker 1: attention and grab their butts and their crotches as well. 347 00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:04,280 Speaker 1: So I mean it becomes a complicated sort of dynamic 348 00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:10,560 Speaker 1: which I attribute to these this this portrayal of this 349 00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:15,040 Speaker 1: kind of newtered toy for straight women to play with, 350 00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:16,720 Speaker 1: when in fact, I mean in real life there are 351 00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:21,160 Speaker 1: such strong and powerful and intimate and important relationships which 352 00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:25,000 Speaker 1: we get between gay men and straight women. There is, however, 353 00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:30,440 Speaker 1: also these other factors that we need to confront too, 354 00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:33,080 Speaker 1: even though I mean I'm personally kind of seizing up 355 00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:36,680 Speaker 1: a little bit because it's a little uncomfortable to talk about. Frankly, Yeah, 356 00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:40,160 Speaker 1: and Rowan goa Over at Jezebel did an incredible job 357 00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:43,480 Speaker 1: talking about it. I mean, he wrote this incredibly long, detailed, 358 00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:46,800 Speaker 1: very personal piece about his life as a gay man 359 00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:50,000 Speaker 1: and his relationship with both other gay men and with 360 00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:53,159 Speaker 1: straight women, and the fact that he basically no longer 361 00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:55,680 Speaker 1: refers to himself as a gay man, that he calls 362 00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:58,919 Speaker 1: himself queer because he says that the term gay is 363 00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:01,640 Speaker 1: way too loaded now that a gay man is like 364 00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:04,960 Speaker 1: will on will and Grace, or like someone who's older 365 00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:07,359 Speaker 1: with a ton of privilege and he's wealthy, and he 366 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:11,480 Speaker 1: has all these material needs and desires and obsessed obsessions, 367 00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:15,920 Speaker 1: whereas the queer guy isn't the one in his assessment 368 00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:18,640 Speaker 1: who's going to go out and grab women's boobs and 369 00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:22,120 Speaker 1: give them all makeovers. But basically he talks about kind 370 00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:24,560 Speaker 1: of the same stuff that Thomas Rogers at Salon did 371 00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:29,160 Speaker 1: that for young men looking for role models, looking for 372 00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:31,280 Speaker 1: an example of how to come out and how to 373 00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:36,000 Speaker 1: be yourself. Really, the examples you have are from pop culture. 374 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:39,480 Speaker 1: And so then he gets in from there two points 375 00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:43,520 Speaker 1: about his perceived experiences with what he perceives to be 376 00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:48,280 Speaker 1: misogyny that exists between gay men in his life and 377 00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:51,639 Speaker 1: straight women in his life, and that he feels like 378 00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:53,800 Speaker 1: many of his female friends have been made to feel 379 00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:58,120 Speaker 1: unwelcome in his own culture, what he calls his own culture, 380 00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:01,200 Speaker 1: and says that, hey, guys, we need to empathize with women, 381 00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:04,679 Speaker 1: not just use them as props as arm candy at parties. 382 00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:07,359 Speaker 1: That we're all humans. Let's start treating each other like it. 383 00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:10,280 Speaker 1: Oh and and vice versa again too. I mean just 384 00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:13,320 Speaker 1: even even using remember that, at least to me in 385 00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:17,000 Speaker 1: my perspective. And I'm going out a limb and inserting 386 00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:21,320 Speaker 1: my own opinion here. I think that people should, at 387 00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:23,840 Speaker 1: this point, before gay marriage is legal in the US, 388 00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:28,159 Speaker 1: maybe think twice about what a privilege insulting kind of 389 00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:31,080 Speaker 1: statement it is to call someone your gay husband, you know, 390 00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:33,359 Speaker 1: if that person doesn't have the right to marry and 391 00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:36,760 Speaker 1: get his own husband. I think that's uh, maybe I'm 392 00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:38,800 Speaker 1: maybe I'm making a mountain out of him. Will help, Yeah, 393 00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:41,520 Speaker 1: but basically, I yeah, and I mean going off of 394 00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:46,280 Speaker 1: what Rohan was writing in terms of empathizing, and hey, 395 00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:49,040 Speaker 1: gay guys don't treat women like props. I mean absolutely, 396 00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:52,440 Speaker 1: it goes both ways. None of us should be treating 397 00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:55,520 Speaker 1: anyone like props. None of us should be leaning so 398 00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:58,640 Speaker 1: heavily on our privilege that we treat another human being 399 00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:00,760 Speaker 1: like a pet or a prop or some kind of 400 00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:04,040 Speaker 1: arm candy accessory. Well, and isn't it fascinating too, And 401 00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:08,560 Speaker 1: that these kinds of conversations are coming up right now 402 00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:13,240 Speaker 1: when we have had a lot of progress in terms 403 00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:18,480 Speaker 1: of gave his ability, lgbt Q rights and recognition, as 404 00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:23,480 Speaker 1: well as a lot of resurgence in terms of women's 405 00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:28,040 Speaker 1: rights gender equality. It's interesting that before all of that, 406 00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:31,080 Speaker 1: when both women and gay men were sort of shoved 407 00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:34,600 Speaker 1: off into the corner, they were the others. As Calamran 408 00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:38,800 Speaker 1: put it, we were considered because of that natural allies. 409 00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:42,880 Speaker 1: But now as both groups are coming into more rights 410 00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:46,200 Speaker 1: and recognition and equality on their own, we're now having 411 00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:50,720 Speaker 1: to take a closer look at some of the skeletons, 412 00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:55,080 Speaker 1: perhaps in this friendship closets. Well, sure, because both straight 413 00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:58,000 Speaker 1: women and gay men are hitting points where they're feeling 414 00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:00,760 Speaker 1: empowered enough to step up and say, hey, I am 415 00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:03,879 Speaker 1: not a prop. I'm not just Jack from Will and 416 00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:06,399 Speaker 1: Grace or I'm not just Karen from Will and Grace. 417 00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:11,440 Speaker 1: As much as those characters are great fictional television characters, 418 00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:14,119 Speaker 1: plenty of people now are stepping up to be like, 419 00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:18,840 Speaker 1: can we perceive or depict anyone as like a real human? Yeah? 420 00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:22,640 Speaker 1: That would be That would be wonderful. And one thing 421 00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:25,000 Speaker 1: I would like to see more of two and and 422 00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:29,160 Speaker 1: there is a little bit more of this on TV 423 00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:33,359 Speaker 1: and film, but more exploration of other cross sex and 424 00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:38,440 Speaker 1: cross orientation friendships. What about the gay men straight men 425 00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:44,040 Speaker 1: friendships that have historically just been hampered by homophobia? But 426 00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:47,720 Speaker 1: knowing some of I know some guys who are you know, 427 00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:54,359 Speaker 1: gay straight guy friends, and they're wonderful relationships to watch. Yeah. Um, 428 00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:57,960 Speaker 1: but unfortunately, and this is coming from a New York 429 00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:01,719 Speaker 1: Times story in two thousand nine, they talk about Jamie Price, 430 00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:05,480 Speaker 1: who's an Appalachian State University professor who studied forty six 431 00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:08,320 Speaker 1: pairs of straight and gay male friends for her book. 432 00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:11,879 Speaker 1: And while that's a lot of pairs, she concluded that 433 00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:15,119 Speaker 1: just thirteen of them could truly be called close friends, 434 00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:18,080 Speaker 1: often because of the barrier that straight men would put 435 00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:21,560 Speaker 1: up because they're not so willing to hear or want 436 00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:25,880 Speaker 1: to hear about their gay friends personal life slash you know, wait, wait, 437 00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:29,000 Speaker 1: nudge and nudge sex life. But I wonder though that 438 00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:31,080 Speaker 1: was in two thousand nine, not so long ago. But 439 00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:34,720 Speaker 1: it feels like so long ago in terms of where 440 00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:37,800 Speaker 1: we are as a culture with homophobia. But maybe I'm 441 00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:42,159 Speaker 1: also looking at the world through rainbow colored glasses um. 442 00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:45,760 Speaker 1: The New York Times also interviewed Professor rich C. Seven Williams, 443 00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:50,280 Speaker 1: super professor of developmental psychology at Cornell, who talked about how, 444 00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:54,960 Speaker 1: in a similar way that straight women might be drawn 445 00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:59,159 Speaker 1: to friendships with gay men because we can get dating 446 00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:01,840 Speaker 1: advice and maybe talk about things we can't talk about 447 00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:05,640 Speaker 1: two straight guys. Um. Seven Williams says that straight men 448 00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:08,199 Speaker 1: also feel like they can talk to gay men about 449 00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:11,280 Speaker 1: fashion and ask them if they're looking okay, and talk 450 00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:15,680 Speaker 1: about more emotional relationship issues, which made me think, Oh 451 00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:19,040 Speaker 1: my god, are straight people just always looking for as Tassi, 452 00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:23,440 Speaker 1: a sassy friend till because they can't communicate with each other? 453 00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:26,440 Speaker 1: So is this just another version of the shine theory, 454 00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:29,840 Speaker 1: like instead of like, hey, women, position yourself next to 455 00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:33,040 Speaker 1: powerful ladies that you can help you along in your career. 456 00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:37,240 Speaker 1: Is this just like hey, straight people, but listen yourself 457 00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:39,040 Speaker 1: next to a gay man so that you can get 458 00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:41,840 Speaker 1: advice whenever you want. Yeah, do you not like talking 459 00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:45,480 Speaker 1: to your straight partner? Well, do we have a sassy 460 00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:50,320 Speaker 1: friend for you? It's it's exhausting, But the whole gay 461 00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:54,200 Speaker 1: straight bromance thing does seem to be becoming at least 462 00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:59,320 Speaker 1: a little more visible. Um. Writing in Gawker, Brian Moyland 463 00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:03,960 Speaker 1: talks about hell, there should be a contract for friendships 464 00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:07,200 Speaker 1: between straight guys and gay guys, like, hey, talk about 465 00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:09,880 Speaker 1: your sex life, talk about your romantic life, but can 466 00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:11,760 Speaker 1: we both agree that neither one of you will go 467 00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:13,880 Speaker 1: into much detail because you don't want to hear about 468 00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:16,720 Speaker 1: penises and you don't want to hear about vaginas. So 469 00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:20,320 Speaker 1: let's just kind of give the general gist of things 470 00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:24,200 Speaker 1: and bond that way, but not get into the nitty gritty. Yeah, 471 00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:29,240 Speaker 1: and also, of course the assamble like accepting that, hey, 472 00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:32,000 Speaker 1: your gay friend doesn't necessarily want to have sex with 473 00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:35,000 Speaker 1: your your gay friend is not just flirting with you, 474 00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:37,359 Speaker 1: and playing a long game to try to get you 475 00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:39,760 Speaker 1: to bat for the other team. Sure, but I mean, 476 00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:42,880 Speaker 1: but there is the reality too that just like in 477 00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:47,160 Speaker 1: straight man straight woman relationships where the guys maybe holding 478 00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:48,960 Speaker 1: a candle for the girl and the girls not aware 479 00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:50,480 Speaker 1: of it. I mean, it's not like that doesn't happen, 480 00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:54,280 Speaker 1: But you can't go into every friendship thinking like, is 481 00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:59,280 Speaker 1: he just trying to get me into bed? Is that 482 00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:04,400 Speaker 1: your is such your Blanche Devereaux, she's wondering absolutely in 483 00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:07,360 Speaker 1: her in one of her night gowns. Yes, yes, yes 484 00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:11,120 Speaker 1: it is well And and another thing Moyland requests as 485 00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:15,280 Speaker 1: well with this gay straight bromance contract is no jokes 486 00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:20,280 Speaker 1: about a feministcy and homophobic nonsense, which is just a 487 00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:24,640 Speaker 1: good rule of thumb in general. Right, oh man, whatever, whatever, 488 00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:26,800 Speaker 1: I still hear it. It's it's like nails and a 489 00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:29,800 Speaker 1: chalkboard when you hear those kinds of jokes today, especially 490 00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:32,959 Speaker 1: because it's like, seriously, you're making that you really so unfunny, 491 00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:37,320 Speaker 1: that is really so foolish you sound um. But I 492 00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:39,719 Speaker 1: do think, I mean, I think that these relationships are 493 00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:43,920 Speaker 1: becoming more normalized, and it's been a byproduct of just 494 00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:48,600 Speaker 1: the generalized embrace of the bromance, which I think is fantastic. 495 00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:53,920 Speaker 1: I am all for guy friendships because they are adorable. 496 00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:58,120 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, and they're necessary. They're so necessary. We've talked 497 00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:01,120 Speaker 1: about the health benefits of having very close friends before, 498 00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:04,200 Speaker 1: so we won't get into all that. But let's talk 499 00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:08,920 Speaker 1: about another cross sex, cross orientation friendship dynamic here. Where 500 00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:12,320 Speaker 1: are the straight men and the lesbians in this conversation? Yes, 501 00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:16,440 Speaker 1: there is actually a term called les bros. No, we 502 00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:20,000 Speaker 1: did not coin it. Um. There was an article about 503 00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:24,280 Speaker 1: this not too long ago in Details magazine. So grain 504 00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:30,320 Speaker 1: of salt, but all about this les bro person who essentially, 505 00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:34,320 Speaker 1: to me, read like the gay version of Jillian Flynn's 506 00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:38,240 Speaker 1: Cool Girl and Gone Girl. Because the way that that 507 00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:42,160 Speaker 1: this author was pitching straight guys you need to become 508 00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:45,960 Speaker 1: friends with lesbians, which, sure, I think that's totally fine. Yeah, 509 00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:50,800 Speaker 1: may make friends with lesbian's, absolutely, But the benefits were dudes, 510 00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:54,600 Speaker 1: she well, we watch football, you can go to strip clubs, 511 00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:57,960 Speaker 1: you can go out to abuse, and you go from 512 00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:01,280 Speaker 1: all mine because she'll found out with lesbian she won't 513 00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:06,360 Speaker 1: care guys, and I that was I'm just mocking the 514 00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:11,320 Speaker 1: overall tone of this article yeah. Well, I mean, but 515 00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:14,160 Speaker 1: just like with any friendship, you've got to worry about 516 00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:17,080 Speaker 1: some potential sexual tension because I mean, just think about 517 00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:21,280 Speaker 1: chasing Amy was chasing Amy. Chasing Amy was one of 518 00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:24,440 Speaker 1: the worst. I mean, Chasing Amy just put a nail 519 00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:27,880 Speaker 1: in the coffin of straight men and lesbian relationships because 520 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:31,000 Speaker 1: it it lit a candle for some for some fellows 521 00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:33,600 Speaker 1: out there, some ben affleck the idea that you're going 522 00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:36,640 Speaker 1: to turn a woman so that she just hasn't met 523 00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:38,800 Speaker 1: the right guy yet, she hasn't met the right penis yet. 524 00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:41,280 Speaker 1: Soon as she meets this penis, she'll become a straight woman. 525 00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:43,520 Speaker 1: And we're not just talking in trope either. This was 526 00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:47,560 Speaker 1: something that came up, uh from the Stuff Mom Never 527 00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:50,800 Speaker 1: Told You YouTube channel. I got a question about from 528 00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:54,200 Speaker 1: a lesbian why do straight guys never believe me when 529 00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:57,000 Speaker 1: I say that I'm a lesbian? Why why do they 530 00:31:57,000 --> 00:32:00,120 Speaker 1: need proof for that? And I talked about it on 531 00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:02,520 Speaker 1: the show and got so many comments from so many 532 00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:05,960 Speaker 1: other lesbians to saying that even if they are approached 533 00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:10,120 Speaker 1: by a straight guy at a bar and they say, hey, thanks, 534 00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:13,040 Speaker 1: no thanks, I'm a lesbian. Even though thanks, I thinks 535 00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:19,000 Speaker 1: should suffice that doesn't suffice they don't really believe it. 536 00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:23,000 Speaker 1: There is this assumption that that can happen. And for 537 00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:26,800 Speaker 1: that reason, Lee Clara le Berge, who was an assistant 538 00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:30,760 Speaker 1: professor of gender studies at the University of Chicago, told 539 00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:34,400 Speaker 1: Details magazine quote, for a straight guy, there's probably some 540 00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:39,400 Speaker 1: disavowed sexual excitement. He knows perfectly well sex would never happen. 541 00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:43,760 Speaker 1: But still so it's not to say that these friendships 542 00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:46,840 Speaker 1: don't and can't exist, but I do think that they 543 00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:52,200 Speaker 1: are rarer, perhaps because of that dynamic, a little bit 544 00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:55,000 Speaker 1: of sexual baggage. Yeah. Yeah, And there was a post 545 00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:58,440 Speaker 1: about this at after ellen dot com as well, of 546 00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:00,959 Speaker 1: a lesbian asking nic question of like, why are we 547 00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:04,560 Speaker 1: never the gay bff and then explaining it she was like, 548 00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:07,160 Speaker 1: one of the things she was saying was, well, I 549 00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:08,920 Speaker 1: guess we don't really wanted to hang out with straight 550 00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:12,400 Speaker 1: guys all the time, So I don't know that's one 551 00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:15,880 Speaker 1: person's opinion. Well yeah, And in that same post, the 552 00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:19,280 Speaker 1: blogger Chloe contends that part of it might just be 553 00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:23,200 Speaker 1: that there's this stereotype of lesbians just being aggressive that 554 00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:28,000 Speaker 1: they're not, You're like glittery, cuddly unicorn like stereotypical best 555 00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:32,240 Speaker 1: gay guy friend. Well, and it also reflects those studies 556 00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:36,000 Speaker 1: that we started earlier looking at friendships in middle and 557 00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:42,000 Speaker 1: high school, and lesbians are likelier to essentially like make 558 00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:45,560 Speaker 1: friends with each other, they aren't necessarily as um as 559 00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:50,200 Speaker 1: likely to have those cross sex friendships. Yeah, But jumping 560 00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:53,560 Speaker 1: off of that, Tyler Curry, writing at Huffington's Post, talks 561 00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:58,040 Speaker 1: about the whole dynamic of gay boys and then eventually 562 00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:01,600 Speaker 1: men and lesbian girls and women, and talks about how 563 00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:06,000 Speaker 1: early on in life, especially when you're younger, you're sort 564 00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:08,799 Speaker 1: of pushed together because it's like, oh, you're gay, so 565 00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:12,800 Speaker 1: just go be together. Yeah, go in the gay corner. 566 00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:15,480 Speaker 1: Yeah you're the others, so go be other together. And 567 00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:18,360 Speaker 1: he talks about how it's like being different animals in 568 00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:22,000 Speaker 1: the same cage. They're assumed to be natural allies, when 569 00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:26,200 Speaker 1: really it's more like fraternal twins. You just don't have 570 00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:31,320 Speaker 1: the same struggle. And ironically, of all of the cross 571 00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:36,560 Speaker 1: sex cross orientation combinations, the one that at least in 572 00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:38,960 Speaker 1: the research we did for the podcast, the one that 573 00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:43,560 Speaker 1: seems to get the least amount of in depth research 574 00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:48,040 Speaker 1: is gay lesbian friendships. They are actually stereotypes that they 575 00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:52,920 Speaker 1: don't get along really at all. Yeah, when really it's like, Okay, 576 00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:57,120 Speaker 1: we're fighting similar fights. It's not that they don't get along, 577 00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:00,839 Speaker 1: but it's just that it is a different fight, and 578 00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:04,399 Speaker 1: so we we automatically assume, kind of in a stereotypical 579 00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:09,840 Speaker 1: assuming fashion, that, um, well, they must be best friends. 580 00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:12,719 Speaker 1: It's like when Harry met Stally, it's like the perfect combination. 581 00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:16,200 Speaker 1: It's men and women, but they want completely different things. 582 00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:19,359 Speaker 1: Of course they should get along. Um, but you know, 583 00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:23,000 Speaker 1: anecdote doesn't always bear that out to be true. Yeah, 584 00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:26,839 Speaker 1: and even uh, even looking back at TV. One thing 585 00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:28,799 Speaker 1: that jumped out to me when I was reading all 586 00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:32,319 Speaker 1: this stuff was how on the HBO show Looking, which 587 00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:36,120 Speaker 1: is all about gay guys in San Francisco, the sort 588 00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:40,759 Speaker 1: of token lady pal is straight, and she not only 589 00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:42,920 Speaker 1: is straight, but is the ex wife of one of 590 00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:48,200 Speaker 1: the super dreamy gay guys. Um. There's as far as 591 00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:53,440 Speaker 1: I can remember, there has really been very little lesbian interaction. 592 00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:56,319 Speaker 1: But people who are better versed on looking correct me 593 00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:59,400 Speaker 1: if I'm wrong. Um. But there was something that also 594 00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:02,279 Speaker 1: jumped out in the book A Companion to l g 595 00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:07,320 Speaker 1: pt Q Studies. It said, quote queer friendships between women 596 00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:11,760 Speaker 1: and men disturbed the mechanisms of homosocial cultures and force 597 00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:15,960 Speaker 1: us to quote deconstruct the forms of relationality that are 598 00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:19,560 Speaker 1: imposed upon them. So, in other words, maybe one of 599 00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:23,319 Speaker 1: the reasons why we there there has been, at least 600 00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:28,080 Speaker 1: so far, so little focus on those friendships is because 601 00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:33,160 Speaker 1: they sort of defy all of the possible norms, and 602 00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:36,360 Speaker 1: maybe we're at a loss to like, well, how well, 603 00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:41,080 Speaker 1: well then what do we do? Right? Yeah, we're we're 604 00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:43,000 Speaker 1: concerned that we won't be able to make a hit 605 00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:45,680 Speaker 1: sitcom based off of that. Yeah, yeah, I mean well, 606 00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:50,240 Speaker 1: And there's also two very little focused on straight similar 607 00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:53,560 Speaker 1: even less focused on street women and lesbians friendships then 608 00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:58,520 Speaker 1: on straight dudes and lesbian's friendships, probably because we as 609 00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:01,319 Speaker 1: humans seem really obsessed with the concept of men and 610 00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:04,799 Speaker 1: women being friends period. So, now, with all that we've 611 00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:10,799 Speaker 1: talked about about friendship dynamics, sexual orientation, romance, all of 612 00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:13,640 Speaker 1: these things, I'm sure our listeners have so much to 613 00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:15,840 Speaker 1: share with us, and I'm very curious to hear. Have 614 00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:19,960 Speaker 1: you been on the receiving end of being considered someone's pet, 615 00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:23,520 Speaker 1: Have you been treated a certain way or dragged along 616 00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:27,239 Speaker 1: on social escapades for a certain reason, just because you're 617 00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:30,160 Speaker 1: somebody's gay best friend or gay husband, or do you 618 00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:35,279 Speaker 1: have one of those awesome, super healthy cross sex cross 619 00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:39,920 Speaker 1: orientation friendships that you cherish and you love and you 620 00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:43,560 Speaker 1: are each other's people. We want to know all of 621 00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:47,200 Speaker 1: your stories, good, bad and ugly. And just one note 622 00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:51,320 Speaker 1: about the whole gay best friend thing. I really hope 623 00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:53,600 Speaker 1: that we are also to the point sort of in 624 00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:55,439 Speaker 1: what we were talking about with our episode on gay 625 00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:59,840 Speaker 1: weddings gay best friend, that phrase can just be shortened 626 00:37:59,840 --> 00:38:04,000 Speaker 1: to just best friend. Right, Yeah, so right to us 627 00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:06,279 Speaker 1: mom Stuff at how stuff works dot com is our 628 00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:09,200 Speaker 1: email address. You can also tweet us at mom Stuff 629 00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:12,240 Speaker 1: podcast and messages on Facebook, and we've got a couple 630 00:38:12,239 --> 00:38:18,920 Speaker 1: of messages to share with you right now. We have 631 00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:24,640 Speaker 1: a couple letters here about consent um. This one's from Jennifer. 632 00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:27,920 Speaker 1: She says, love the podcast, and I wanted to share 633 00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:30,280 Speaker 1: something my parents did to teach us about the importance 634 00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:33,400 Speaker 1: of consent. As early as I remember, when my dad 635 00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:35,480 Speaker 1: and I, or my sister and I would play fight 636 00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:39,320 Speaker 1: artickle as soon as anyone said stop or no, we stopped. 637 00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:42,279 Speaker 1: I didn't realize how deliberate my parents were with this 638 00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:44,680 Speaker 1: lesson until I started working with children who had been 639 00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:47,800 Speaker 1: sexually abused. When I started, I mentioned on my parents 640 00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:50,480 Speaker 1: how I remembered their rule. My mom told me that 641 00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:53,960 Speaker 1: children are powerless enough, it's their parents job to reinforce 642 00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:56,560 Speaker 1: that even small children are in charge of their bodies 643 00:38:56,800 --> 00:39:00,440 Speaker 1: and are worthy of respect for their decisions about their bodies. This, 644 00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:03,960 Speaker 1: along with a comprehensive sex education from my mother, ensure 645 00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:06,520 Speaker 1: that I felt empowered to make decisions about my sex 646 00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:09,319 Speaker 1: life and ensure that I was the one friends came 647 00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:13,319 Speaker 1: to with any embarrassing questions. So thank you, Jennifer. And 648 00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:15,960 Speaker 1: I've got a letter here from Kendra who writes, I 649 00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:20,279 Speaker 1: just listened to your rate Prevention nail polished episode, and 650 00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:22,560 Speaker 1: when you talked about the importance of teaching people the 651 00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:26,440 Speaker 1: importance of getting and giving consent, especially when they're younger 652 00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:29,640 Speaker 1: than college age, I had an interesting reaction. I have 653 00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:32,240 Speaker 1: two sons and a daughter, and my sons are eleven 654 00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:35,000 Speaker 1: and nine. My daughter is six, and my first thought 655 00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:37,440 Speaker 1: was that my sons feel much too young to be 656 00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:40,400 Speaker 1: having conversations with them about their role as men and 657 00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:43,000 Speaker 1: about what it means to get consent from a sexual partner. 658 00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:46,080 Speaker 1: But later that day, as I interacted with the five 659 00:39:46,160 --> 00:39:49,320 Speaker 1: daycare children in my home, all ages three and younger, 660 00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:52,160 Speaker 1: I realized how easy it is to teach and model 661 00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:55,600 Speaker 1: those issues all the kids, regardless of age and gender, 662 00:39:55,800 --> 00:39:58,520 Speaker 1: for the same messages. For me, you don't use your 663 00:39:58,520 --> 00:40:01,680 Speaker 1: body to hurt anyone ever. It's okay to touch someone 664 00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:04,960 Speaker 1: they love, giving hugs and kisses, but you should always 665 00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:07,680 Speaker 1: ask first, and if they say no, that means no, 666 00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:10,800 Speaker 1: because we're all the boss of our own body. Sex 667 00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:13,280 Speaker 1: is a complicated issue, and when it comes to sexual violence, 668 00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:15,400 Speaker 1: there's no easy way to talk about it, and I 669 00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:17,239 Speaker 1: think there's a point at which kids are really too 670 00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:20,480 Speaker 1: young to be having those conversations. But the underlying issues 671 00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:22,759 Speaker 1: are easy to teach and easy to talk about. And 672 00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:25,440 Speaker 1: if we do that teaching that no means no and 673 00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:27,440 Speaker 1: that you don't get to touch anyone who says no, 674 00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:30,719 Speaker 1: maybe we can reduce the chances that anyone will need 675 00:40:30,760 --> 00:40:34,239 Speaker 1: to be afraid. So thanks for that insight, Kendra, and 676 00:40:34,239 --> 00:40:38,280 Speaker 1: I think that's fantastic advice. So if you have advice, 677 00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:40,880 Speaker 1: our anecdotes to send our way. Mom Stuff at how 678 00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:43,279 Speaker 1: stuff works dot com is our email address, and for 679 00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:45,120 Speaker 1: links to all of our social media as well as 680 00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:48,800 Speaker 1: all of our blogs, videos, and podcasts with our sources 681 00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:51,200 Speaker 1: so you can read along. Head on over to stuff 682 00:40:51,200 --> 00:41:08,080 Speaker 1: Mom Never told You dot com.