1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,160 Speaker 1: When you think of Los Angeles, a few things popped 2 00:00:02,200 --> 00:00:06,680 Speaker 1: to mind. Hollywood, the Beach, and the LA Lakers. Lakers 3 00:00:06,680 --> 00:00:09,479 Speaker 1: franchise is one of the most storied in all of sports, 4 00:00:09,560 --> 00:00:13,560 Speaker 1: with the stars of the team Magic, Kareem, Shaq, Kobe 5 00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:17,279 Speaker 1: and these days Lebron using the glitz, glamour and a 6 00:00:17,280 --> 00:00:21,280 Speaker 1: lot of championship rings to transcend sports. And that's by 7 00:00:21,320 --> 00:00:30,680 Speaker 1: a design largely conceived by one man, doctor Jerry Buss. 8 00:00:33,040 --> 00:00:36,920 Speaker 1: Max Burnstein is the co creator, showrunner, writer, executive producer 9 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:39,440 Speaker 1: of Winning Time. It's an HBO series about how the 10 00:00:39,479 --> 00:00:42,760 Speaker 1: bus led Lakers rose from the verge of bankruptcy to 11 00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:46,120 Speaker 1: become one of the most valuable franchises in all of sports. 12 00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:49,279 Speaker 1: As season two of the show premieres, I caught up 13 00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:51,720 Speaker 1: with Max to talk about all things Lakers and how 14 00:00:51,760 --> 00:00:55,880 Speaker 1: he brought nineteen eighties LA and the massively influential team 15 00:00:55,920 --> 00:00:59,480 Speaker 1: to life, warts and all. I'm Jason Kelly. This is 16 00:00:59,480 --> 00:01:08,560 Speaker 1: a special edition of Bloomberg Business of Sports. All right, So, 17 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:12,679 Speaker 1: Max Bornstein, I've got to read this. Co creator, show runner, writer, 18 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:17,320 Speaker 1: executive producer of Winning Time Season two It's out. I 19 00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:19,240 Speaker 1: can't get enough of this show. I was saying to 20 00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:22,479 Speaker 1: you before we started talking, It's just a world I 21 00:01:22,640 --> 00:01:26,520 Speaker 1: love living in, and so I want to hear how 22 00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:29,560 Speaker 1: you created it, how you came to it. I know 23 00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:32,840 Speaker 1: a little bit of the backstory, but tell me how 24 00:01:32,880 --> 00:01:34,160 Speaker 1: you came to this project. 25 00:01:34,640 --> 00:01:37,800 Speaker 2: I'm so glad to hear that, Jason, And thanks for 26 00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:40,520 Speaker 2: having me on. And it's for me. It is a 27 00:01:40,560 --> 00:01:43,000 Speaker 2: world that I love living in too, and that's really 28 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:46,200 Speaker 2: the reason why I gravitated towards it. You know, I 29 00:01:46,240 --> 00:01:48,720 Speaker 2: read I read the book show Time that Jeff Perlman wrote, 30 00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:52,080 Speaker 2: and that Jim Hecked, my co creator, had optioned and 31 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:55,520 Speaker 2: for years had this vision of making it a television show. 32 00:01:56,560 --> 00:01:58,840 Speaker 2: He'd grown up in LA, and he was looking for 33 00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:01,560 Speaker 2: someone who was a basketball fan who'd grown up in 34 00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:03,760 Speaker 2: LA to write it and helped bring it to life. 35 00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:07,120 Speaker 2: And you know, I've always been searching for something that 36 00:02:07,160 --> 00:02:11,360 Speaker 2: would feel like it would hit the spot of resuscitating 37 00:02:11,440 --> 00:02:15,400 Speaker 2: that that world that I vaguely remember as a young child, 38 00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:19,160 Speaker 2: kind of glimpsing and looking up to and seeing all 39 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:22,920 Speaker 2: and it's had lost. It's as lost, I think now 40 00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:26,799 Speaker 2: as the Depression era, the world of people with their 41 00:02:26,840 --> 00:02:30,280 Speaker 2: shirts open and smoking in restaurants, and you know, when 42 00:02:30,480 --> 00:02:34,400 Speaker 2: basketball was young and hadn't yet exploded on the scene, 43 00:02:34,400 --> 00:02:37,320 Speaker 2: and all of these these aspects that I you know, 44 00:02:37,360 --> 00:02:41,160 Speaker 2: I knew some of the history, and in reading Jeff's book, 45 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:43,880 Speaker 2: I realized that it was such a perfect kind of 46 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:47,600 Speaker 2: prism onto that moment in time, that change that the 47 00:02:47,600 --> 00:02:50,200 Speaker 2: eighties wrought, that I think is the world we live 48 00:02:50,200 --> 00:02:54,239 Speaker 2: in today, where sports and entertainment are the same, where 49 00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:58,120 Speaker 2: they're global or American culture is that globalized kind of 50 00:02:58,160 --> 00:03:01,240 Speaker 2: all started in this moment. And we're able to tell 51 00:03:01,280 --> 00:03:05,360 Speaker 2: that story through the lens of Lakers basketball, which you know, 52 00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:08,839 Speaker 2: for me as an LA kid, hits close to home. Well, 53 00:03:08,840 --> 00:03:09,839 Speaker 2: and it's amazing too. 54 00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:13,000 Speaker 1: You know, we talk so much around the stuff that 55 00:03:13,040 --> 00:03:15,880 Speaker 1: we do about this intersection of business, sports and culture, 56 00:03:16,280 --> 00:03:19,519 Speaker 1: and clearly this was a cultural moment. It's also such 57 00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:23,079 Speaker 1: a fascinating business story because looking at the NBA today, 58 00:03:23,919 --> 00:03:27,320 Speaker 1: it is very hard to imagine until candidly you watch 59 00:03:27,320 --> 00:03:29,280 Speaker 1: your show, this was a failing business. 60 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:33,240 Speaker 2: The NBA was the fourth or fifth tier of sports 61 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:36,960 Speaker 2: in America at the time. You had, you know, baseball, football, 62 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:41,840 Speaker 2: golf had far higher ratings than basketball, and both you know, 63 00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:47,080 Speaker 2: CBS was constantly preempting basketball and lowering the contract every 64 00:03:47,160 --> 00:03:52,560 Speaker 2: year because they wanted the wealthy clientele of golf, because 65 00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:57,800 Speaker 2: the advertisers thought that was a more exciting sport. To me, 66 00:03:57,920 --> 00:04:03,200 Speaker 2: Jerry Buss is the most exciting kind of folkrum point 67 00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:08,080 Speaker 2: in sports as this character, and relatively, I mean, he's famous, obviously, 68 00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:11,080 Speaker 2: but I think he hasn't gotten the glory that a 69 00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:14,800 Speaker 2: George Steinbrenner or some of the other great sports owners 70 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:18,120 Speaker 2: have received. And I think and partly he never wrote 71 00:04:18,160 --> 00:04:20,520 Speaker 2: a biography, and no one's ever written a biography of him, 72 00:04:20,520 --> 00:04:22,919 Speaker 2: which someone should, and we're trying to do it with 73 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:25,120 Speaker 2: the show. But this is a guy who grew up 74 00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:31,080 Speaker 2: on breadlines in Wyoming and really was you know, he 75 00:04:31,120 --> 00:04:34,320 Speaker 2: when he moved out to la which he chose to 76 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:37,479 Speaker 2: do because he got a scholarship at fifteen to Harvard 77 00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:41,360 Speaker 2: and was a brilliant mathematician and scientist, and instead decided 78 00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:44,040 Speaker 2: he wanted to come out to la because he's his 79 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:46,520 Speaker 2: mother had taken him here when he was about twelve 80 00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:50,040 Speaker 2: for a brief escape from one of his abusive stepfathers, 81 00:04:50,279 --> 00:04:52,400 Speaker 2: and in that moment he saw the sunshine and the 82 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:56,320 Speaker 2: palm trees, and he said, you know, f Boston, I'm 83 00:04:56,360 --> 00:04:58,279 Speaker 2: coming to La. And he decided that's what he was 84 00:04:58,279 --> 00:05:00,080 Speaker 2: going to do with his with his life. He and 85 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:03,000 Speaker 2: that's sort of the but he was a genius scientist 86 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:05,599 Speaker 2: and a brilliant business mind. But he was also a 87 00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:08,400 Speaker 2: bomb vivant and a lover of life and of what 88 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:12,599 Speaker 2: La had to offer him as this depression kid from 89 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:16,320 Speaker 2: the freezing gold the sort of American dream moving west 90 00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:19,800 Speaker 2: and its sunshine and palm trees and beautiful women. And 91 00:05:19,839 --> 00:05:22,960 Speaker 2: he was very much a man of that moment and 92 00:05:24,279 --> 00:05:29,080 Speaker 2: kind of to me, the best version of that archetypal 93 00:05:29,160 --> 00:05:34,840 Speaker 2: bootstraps idea of that of the American businessmen of that 94 00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:38,080 Speaker 2: that we've kind of been sold and so often it's 95 00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:40,840 Speaker 2: full of crap, like so often those people are manipulative, 96 00:05:41,400 --> 00:05:45,400 Speaker 2: and you know not you start scratching beneath the surface 97 00:05:45,440 --> 00:05:48,359 Speaker 2: and you find something that's far from that kind of 98 00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:51,840 Speaker 2: American dream. But with Jerry Buss, you know, his warts 99 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:54,359 Speaker 2: were simply this, you know, the kind of worts that 100 00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:57,159 Speaker 2: came with this sort of lover of life. He drank 101 00:05:57,200 --> 00:05:59,279 Speaker 2: too much, He slept around with a lot of people, 102 00:05:59,320 --> 00:06:02,159 Speaker 2: but that was he wore it on his sleeve, and 103 00:06:02,200 --> 00:06:04,840 Speaker 2: he was you know, you speak to people who knew him, 104 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:09,520 Speaker 2: they absolutely loved him. And he brought this passion for 105 00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:14,560 Speaker 2: sports and for entertainment for Hollywood, and he saw an 106 00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:17,839 Speaker 2: opportunity in the Lakers because he had tried to buy. 107 00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:21,039 Speaker 2: He dreamt of buying a football team. He dreamt of 108 00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:23,599 Speaker 2: buying a baseball team. He went to USC and was 109 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:29,600 Speaker 2: obsessed with the sports culture of USC and he would 110 00:06:29,600 --> 00:06:32,360 Speaker 2: watch the Lakers, and for years he would tell every 111 00:06:32,400 --> 00:06:34,880 Speaker 2: girlfriend and every friend of his and he had a 112 00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:37,880 Speaker 2: you know, he would date girls right and left, and 113 00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:39,840 Speaker 2: that was just who he was, and this kind of 114 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:44,280 Speaker 2: swinging Playboy era, and he would tell everyone, I'm buying 115 00:06:44,400 --> 00:06:46,520 Speaker 2: I'm gonna buy the Lakers. I'm gonna buy a basketball team, 116 00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:48,960 Speaker 2: and no one believed him, and no one even cared 117 00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:52,720 Speaker 2: because it was such a sort of last place kind 118 00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:57,560 Speaker 2: of professional sport. People liked college ball, and he saw 119 00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:02,000 Speaker 2: that vision. He saw that basketball was unlike football, which 120 00:07:02,040 --> 00:07:04,159 Speaker 2: is a sport where you're wearing helmets and you're covering 121 00:07:04,240 --> 00:07:07,839 Speaker 2: your face, or baseball, where you've got your favorite player 122 00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:11,960 Speaker 2: comes up once every three innings, and so in basketball, 123 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:15,760 Speaker 2: they're on the floor and they're doing, they're active, and 124 00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:18,280 Speaker 2: not only that, but everyone's able to assert a little 125 00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:20,800 Speaker 2: bit more of their personal style onto the game. Like 126 00:07:21,160 --> 00:07:23,760 Speaker 2: the way that someone shoots, the way that someone drives 127 00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:28,240 Speaker 2: to the rim, the way that someone dunks is more stylized, 128 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:32,080 Speaker 2: more specific, and more unique than you know, a swing 129 00:07:32,440 --> 00:07:34,840 Speaker 2: or a run around the bases. And he saw that, 130 00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:37,880 Speaker 2: and he knew that there was an opportunity there and 131 00:07:37,960 --> 00:07:41,480 Speaker 2: people didn't believe in it, and like any great businessman, 132 00:07:41,560 --> 00:07:44,520 Speaker 2: he sees on that. And you know what's interesting about 133 00:07:44,520 --> 00:07:46,480 Speaker 2: it is that because of him and because of the 134 00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:51,080 Speaker 2: Lakers and what transpired in the eighties with then of 135 00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:54,360 Speaker 2: course the sort of you know Cinderella story of drafting 136 00:07:54,400 --> 00:07:58,080 Speaker 2: Magic Johnson and then the Celtics the rivals drafting Larry 137 00:07:58,080 --> 00:08:04,120 Speaker 2: Bird same year. But what that allowed for us today 138 00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:07,320 Speaker 2: with this kind of global NBA is a world in 139 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:10,000 Speaker 2: which the NBA is so big that every team is 140 00:08:10,040 --> 00:08:15,320 Speaker 2: owned by you know, a constellation ownership group, corporate ownership 141 00:08:15,520 --> 00:08:18,960 Speaker 2: that have a lot more money and resources, ironically than 142 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:21,360 Speaker 2: the Lakers, which is one of the few when one 143 00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:25,200 Speaker 2: of the last remaining family owned teams and still certain 144 00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:28,240 Speaker 2: you know, manages really as a result of the legacy 145 00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:32,440 Speaker 2: of Jerry Buss and all of the great players that 146 00:08:32,559 --> 00:08:34,840 Speaker 2: he and the sort of era that he was able 147 00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:38,400 Speaker 2: to sort of bring to fruition. They're still you know, 148 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:42,240 Speaker 2: winning and they're still competitive, which is which is really 149 00:08:42,280 --> 00:08:46,200 Speaker 2: extraordinary under the leadership of Genie, given the fact they 150 00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:50,280 Speaker 2: don't have the kind of resources they're poor relative to 151 00:08:50,360 --> 00:08:51,440 Speaker 2: sports owners. 152 00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:53,920 Speaker 1: Right right, Yeah, I mean, so we got to talk 153 00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:56,840 Speaker 1: about Magic Johnson because from a business perspective, it a 154 00:08:57,280 --> 00:09:01,040 Speaker 1: is a brilliant business decision to to draft him, to 155 00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:05,720 Speaker 1: understand that he was a generational talent on and off 156 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:09,520 Speaker 1: the court. Yeah, and also, you know, we see clearly 157 00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:11,920 Speaker 1: in the first season and as we get into the 158 00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:17,480 Speaker 1: second season this very lucrative business partnership that happens, and 159 00:09:17,520 --> 00:09:21,080 Speaker 1: you also start to see it feels like and we 160 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:26,880 Speaker 1: have seen this really take root of late the businessman 161 00:09:27,400 --> 00:09:31,480 Speaker 1: that Magic becomes even at a very young age. 162 00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:34,000 Speaker 2: Tell me about that, well, I think it's fascinating because, 163 00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:37,040 Speaker 2: you know, Magic, it wasn't a foregone conclusion that he 164 00:09:37,080 --> 00:09:39,319 Speaker 2: would be the number one pick. We tell that story 165 00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:43,680 Speaker 2: in the first season, but Jerry Buss very much believed 166 00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:47,040 Speaker 2: in him not and because he knew he was a 167 00:09:47,080 --> 00:09:50,200 Speaker 2: generational talent or sensed it. But the talent that he 168 00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:54,320 Speaker 2: saw that maybe trump the basketball talent was the excitement 169 00:09:54,760 --> 00:09:57,840 Speaker 2: of this guy, the showmanship of Magic both on the 170 00:09:57,880 --> 00:10:01,800 Speaker 2: floor and his charisma off the floor. And bus knew 171 00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:05,000 Speaker 2: that what he wanted in that team was that kind 172 00:10:05,040 --> 00:10:08,720 Speaker 2: of excitement, and so Magic was just the perfect fit 173 00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:10,800 Speaker 2: for the Lakers. You know, there was a world in which, 174 00:10:11,240 --> 00:10:15,000 Speaker 2: you know, Larry Bird might have entered that draft the 175 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:17,880 Speaker 2: same year that Magic did for various reasons, which the 176 00:10:17,920 --> 00:10:20,200 Speaker 2: story does come up in the second season, but he 177 00:10:20,280 --> 00:10:22,600 Speaker 2: was kind of drafted by a loophole a year before 178 00:10:22,640 --> 00:10:25,560 Speaker 2: he came into the league and perfectly wound up in 179 00:10:25,640 --> 00:10:29,400 Speaker 2: Boston with that sort of workman like style and that 180 00:10:29,480 --> 00:10:32,440 Speaker 2: kind of working class city, and Magic, who comes from 181 00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:37,120 Speaker 2: an equally working class background in Lansing. He fit Hollywood 182 00:10:37,240 --> 00:10:40,640 Speaker 2: because of that charisma. He fit the style and the 183 00:10:40,920 --> 00:10:43,520 Speaker 2: excitement and the fun. It's hard to imagine what Larry 184 00:10:43,559 --> 00:10:46,319 Speaker 2: Bird would have been like on the Lakers with you know, 185 00:10:46,400 --> 00:10:50,800 Speaker 2: that taciturn, gritted out style. It's equally effective, but it's 186 00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:53,280 Speaker 2: not the same and it doesn't pop on camera like Magic, 187 00:10:53,400 --> 00:10:55,880 Speaker 2: and so, you know, I think it was you know, 188 00:10:56,080 --> 00:10:58,120 Speaker 2: we tell this story and try to dig into it, 189 00:10:58,920 --> 00:11:02,319 Speaker 2: but you know, it's certainly not a foregone conclusion that 190 00:11:02,360 --> 00:11:05,440 Speaker 2: he was going to become the celebrity that he did, 191 00:11:05,520 --> 00:11:08,400 Speaker 2: or even the businessman that he did. And a lot 192 00:11:08,440 --> 00:11:11,000 Speaker 2: of that is due to his relationship with Doctor Buss, 193 00:11:11,160 --> 00:11:14,240 Speaker 2: but a big part of it was his own. You know, 194 00:11:14,320 --> 00:11:17,880 Speaker 2: he absorbed like a sponge, the business savvy of the 195 00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:21,040 Speaker 2: people around him. And part of what happens in our 196 00:11:21,080 --> 00:11:24,160 Speaker 2: second season and the story we're able to tell is 197 00:11:24,240 --> 00:11:28,400 Speaker 2: this transitional moment where having won a championship his first 198 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:31,840 Speaker 2: year and then become a star and become a national 199 00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:34,360 Speaker 2: celebrity that built off of his you know, he had 200 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:36,800 Speaker 2: some fame in college from the college game, but he 201 00:11:36,920 --> 00:11:39,439 Speaker 2: really sort of popped onto the scene. But he saw 202 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:44,640 Speaker 2: an opportunity there for himself and a power base for himself, 203 00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:48,800 Speaker 2: both in the game and ultimately beyond the game that 204 00:11:49,040 --> 00:11:52,400 Speaker 2: was really unheard of at the time. And it starts with, 205 00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:55,920 Speaker 2: you know, the deal that doctor Buss made with Magic 206 00:11:56,920 --> 00:11:59,679 Speaker 2: for twenty five years, a twenty five year, twenty five 207 00:11:59,720 --> 00:12:03,920 Speaker 2: millillion dollar deal, which was you know, insane and unheard of. 208 00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:06,640 Speaker 2: On the one hand, and everyone excoriated both of them 209 00:12:07,520 --> 00:12:11,280 Speaker 2: for what seemed like this extraordinary, profligate waste of money. 210 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:14,240 Speaker 2: In fact, Jerry, you know, had a brilliant idea of 211 00:12:14,280 --> 00:12:15,840 Speaker 2: his sleeve, which was what he which is that he 212 00:12:15,880 --> 00:12:19,880 Speaker 2: invested about five hundred grand in a very high interest 213 00:12:19,960 --> 00:12:23,480 Speaker 2: rate account, which because the interest rates in those days 214 00:12:23,520 --> 00:12:26,240 Speaker 2: were extreme and he knew that that was it, he 215 00:12:26,280 --> 00:12:29,640 Speaker 2: didn't He paid Magic with the interest for twenty five years. 216 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:32,800 Speaker 2: It was the best bargain in basketball. He also saw 217 00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:35,440 Speaker 2: that free agency was coming and that in a couple 218 00:12:35,520 --> 00:12:37,760 Speaker 2: of years that was going to be a pittance. And 219 00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:39,960 Speaker 2: you know, in this day and age, when someone gets 220 00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:42,600 Speaker 2: paid forty million dollars a year, right, And of course 221 00:12:42,640 --> 00:12:45,200 Speaker 2: Magic then saw that in the moment he realized that, 222 00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:48,280 Speaker 2: Bus said okay, we'll renegotiate, and then but did more 223 00:12:48,320 --> 00:12:50,439 Speaker 2: than that. He kind of opened the books to him 224 00:12:50,559 --> 00:12:53,320 Speaker 2: and he taught him a bit a bit about the business. 225 00:12:53,320 --> 00:12:56,240 Speaker 2: And Magic credits him with sort of bringing him in 226 00:12:56,320 --> 00:12:59,480 Speaker 2: and teaching him how to be not only a basketball player, 227 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:01,679 Speaker 2: because that was nothing that Bus could teach him about that, 228 00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:05,760 Speaker 2: but how to be a businessman. And yeah, well, I 229 00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:07,599 Speaker 2: was just gonna say one of the fun stories just 230 00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:09,959 Speaker 2: to give sort of that we tell in this season 231 00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:13,120 Speaker 2: is the way that that kind of backfires, because there's 232 00:13:13,160 --> 00:13:16,360 Speaker 2: a moment where Magic starts to clash with his coach, 233 00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:21,000 Speaker 2: and for the first time, really ever in professional sports, 234 00:13:21,440 --> 00:13:24,080 Speaker 2: he realized, because of the contract that Buss had given 235 00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:26,720 Speaker 2: him his power, and he realized that he was bigger 236 00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:28,760 Speaker 2: than the coach, and he was bigger than the organization. 237 00:13:28,840 --> 00:13:31,800 Speaker 2: And not in a petulant way, although he got kind of, 238 00:13:32,559 --> 00:13:36,400 Speaker 2: you know, very much sort of lambasted by fans and 239 00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:40,240 Speaker 2: press at the time, but he realized, no, you know what, 240 00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:44,960 Speaker 2: I have control an agency over my own my team 241 00:13:45,080 --> 00:13:48,640 Speaker 2: right now. I'm a businessman, I'm the business. I'm a 242 00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:51,600 Speaker 2: celebrity athlete. And that's something that hadn't happened before. And 243 00:13:52,120 --> 00:13:54,320 Speaker 2: without him, you don't have Jordan. Without him, you don't 244 00:13:54,360 --> 00:13:57,080 Speaker 2: have Lebron right now. 245 00:13:57,200 --> 00:13:59,600 Speaker 1: And and I'm so glad you brought that up, because 246 00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:03,960 Speaker 1: I do think that as we start to assess, you know, 247 00:14:04,040 --> 00:14:08,040 Speaker 1: even in the past five years, this notion of the 248 00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:11,400 Speaker 1: the empowered athlete, the athlete empire, all of these things 249 00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:14,439 Speaker 1: that are building up, you know, Magic is very much 250 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:17,520 Speaker 1: on the front end of that, you know, and manifest itself. 251 00:14:17,520 --> 00:14:21,200 Speaker 1: Most recently he's in you know, he owns it. I 252 00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:22,760 Speaker 1: think it's like five and a half percent of the 253 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:27,320 Speaker 1: Washington Commanders. He's part of the largest you know, team 254 00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:31,520 Speaker 1: sale in the history of US sports as a significant owner. 255 00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:35,640 Speaker 1: You bring up some really interesting things in that description too, 256 00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:41,520 Speaker 1: one of which is this management challenge, ultimately, that management 257 00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:45,360 Speaker 1: and ownership challenge that doctor Buss has with his coaches. 258 00:14:45,560 --> 00:14:49,440 Speaker 1: And I'm so excited in season two to see some 259 00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:52,600 Speaker 1: of that unpacked because we meet pat Riley obviously in 260 00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:57,920 Speaker 1: season one, and in season two presumably he really comes 261 00:14:57,920 --> 00:15:00,760 Speaker 1: into his own. But it's a fa sating sort of 262 00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:04,680 Speaker 1: business strategy and an almost case studying it. 263 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:07,440 Speaker 2: Well, it's really I mean, it's really you know, it's 264 00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:11,680 Speaker 2: a he was. Bus was a visionary and he was 265 00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:14,200 Speaker 2: a fly by the seat of his pants kind of owner. 266 00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:14,840 Speaker 1: Uh. 267 00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:19,320 Speaker 2: And the story of the ownership, I mean of them coaching, 268 00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:23,720 Speaker 2: the story of the coaching struggles and in this early 269 00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:27,320 Speaker 2: era of the Lakers is really kind of you know, 270 00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:32,600 Speaker 2: unprecedented and hilarious to watch and hilarious to read about 271 00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:35,640 Speaker 2: in fact, and we really you know, uh, you know 272 00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:38,480 Speaker 2: in the first season that Bus owned it. In our 273 00:15:38,520 --> 00:15:42,080 Speaker 2: first season as a show. Jerry West was the coach 274 00:15:42,160 --> 00:15:44,720 Speaker 2: of the Lakers, and he had been the great Jerry West, 275 00:15:44,720 --> 00:15:47,920 Speaker 2: the logo of the league. And he hated coaching and 276 00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:52,040 Speaker 2: you know, self confessed was miserable because it was it's 277 00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:55,080 Speaker 2: hard for one of the great athletes to watch you know, 278 00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:58,200 Speaker 2: his own you know, watch his own sport be played. 279 00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:00,560 Speaker 2: He's only five six years out of the game himself 280 00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:03,880 Speaker 2: by guys who couldn't hold a candle to him. And 281 00:16:03,920 --> 00:16:06,720 Speaker 2: you can't play chess that way. You have to sit 282 00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:08,880 Speaker 2: on the sidelines, you can't move around your players, you 283 00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:11,200 Speaker 2: can't get out and do it. And he hated that, 284 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:14,200 Speaker 2: so he quit and kind of left the team in 285 00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:17,239 Speaker 2: the lurch, although he stayed on in management and eventually 286 00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:20,120 Speaker 2: found his second act as one of the great general 287 00:16:20,120 --> 00:16:22,840 Speaker 2: managers of all time. But they brought in Jack McKinney, 288 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:26,440 Speaker 2: who was this brilliant coach and a brilliant tactician who 289 00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:29,320 Speaker 2: invented what it ultimately really was, the run and gun 290 00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:34,480 Speaker 2: showtime offense, only to twelve games into the season, fall 291 00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:37,560 Speaker 2: off his bike, crack his skull open, and wind up 292 00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:43,120 Speaker 2: in a coma, and ultimately his replacement was Paul westhead 293 00:16:43,160 --> 00:16:48,600 Speaker 2: who was the year before teaching Shakespeare at LaSalle and 294 00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:53,680 Speaker 2: had been McKinney's sort of second in command, assistant towel 295 00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:57,000 Speaker 2: boy on his college team, and was brought in by 296 00:16:57,040 --> 00:16:58,880 Speaker 2: McKinney because he needed a guy to help out in 297 00:16:58,880 --> 00:17:02,400 Speaker 2: those days assistant coach, which weren't a squad like they 298 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:04,439 Speaker 2: are today. It was like one guy who helped you. 299 00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:06,639 Speaker 2: So when West had got elevated to the job in 300 00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:09,240 Speaker 2: the middle of the season in a temporary capacity while 301 00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:14,600 Speaker 2: they were hoping McKinney would return, incomes pat Riley as 302 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:18,240 Speaker 2: he who was had only retired a few years before, 303 00:17:18,760 --> 00:17:20,720 Speaker 2: was a washed up player. He had been the sort 304 00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:24,680 Speaker 2: of punching bag in the practice dummy as it were, 305 00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:28,120 Speaker 2: for Jerry West on his championship team. They they were pals. 306 00:17:28,560 --> 00:17:30,359 Speaker 2: He had been. He was never a, you know, a 307 00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:32,960 Speaker 2: great player in the NBA. He'd been a great player 308 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:35,119 Speaker 2: in college, but he was sort of a great bench 309 00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:38,760 Speaker 2: effort guy in the NBA. And for Jerry West, he 310 00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:40,880 Speaker 2: was the guy who gave him a hard time in practice, 311 00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:43,720 Speaker 2: and so they had a relationship. And the Laker and 312 00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:45,800 Speaker 2: he had a relationship with Chick Hern So he became 313 00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:48,720 Speaker 2: Chick Hearn's color commentator, so then and he and he 314 00:17:48,840 --> 00:17:51,640 Speaker 2: was looked like a washed up kind of hippie burnout, 315 00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:53,480 Speaker 2: which was a whole thing. When we were getting to 316 00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:56,800 Speaker 2: Adrian Brody to sign on to play pat Riley, it 317 00:17:56,840 --> 00:17:58,760 Speaker 2: was a conversation where he said, great, I can't wait. 318 00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:00,320 Speaker 2: I'm gonna to look back my hairm an wear the 319 00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:02,879 Speaker 2: Armani suits. And it was like, well, wait a minute, 320 00:18:03,040 --> 00:18:08,120 Speaker 2: not quite yet. He's so pat comes in, he's got 321 00:18:08,119 --> 00:18:11,159 Speaker 2: a porn stash and long hair, and he's you know, 322 00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:14,600 Speaker 2: a beach bum wandering and you know, Santa Monica and 323 00:18:14,640 --> 00:18:18,640 Speaker 2: playing volleyball all day and that's the truth of it. 324 00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:21,320 Speaker 2: And Adrian was like, all right, I'll be patient. I 325 00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:24,520 Speaker 2: hate the mustache, but I'll be patient. And so finally 326 00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:27,280 Speaker 2: this season we get to see him come to full 327 00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:30,680 Speaker 2: Flower and it happens again in the most unlikely way 328 00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:33,960 Speaker 2: because that first season, Westhead brings him off of Chick 329 00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:39,760 Speaker 2: Hern's color sidekick bench to be his assistant coach. Because 330 00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:42,560 Speaker 2: they shared an office, they became pals and he needed 331 00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:44,520 Speaker 2: his help. He was a guy who really knew the NBA. 332 00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:47,800 Speaker 2: So together they win a championship and it feels like 333 00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:51,840 Speaker 2: a magical year, but doing it again is a million 334 00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:53,680 Speaker 2: times harder than doing it the first time. That really 335 00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:55,720 Speaker 2: is what the second season is about. You know, they 336 00:18:55,760 --> 00:18:58,679 Speaker 2: won their first year, but to become a dynasty, to 337 00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:02,440 Speaker 2: become anything more than just a flash in the pan, everyone, 338 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:05,800 Speaker 2: you've got to target on your back and now you've 339 00:19:05,840 --> 00:19:09,359 Speaker 2: got to work ten times harder, and you've got to 340 00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:12,880 Speaker 2: work against yourself and against every ego that gets stoked 341 00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:15,640 Speaker 2: by that first victory. And that goes for the players 342 00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:19,240 Speaker 2: whose egos get you know, become an issue in their 343 00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:22,959 Speaker 2: second season and their second kind of campaign for a championship, 344 00:19:23,119 --> 00:19:26,800 Speaker 2: and for the coaches, because west Head knows at that 345 00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:30,240 Speaker 2: point that he was never the first choice, right and 346 00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:34,360 Speaker 2: so who is he as a coach himself without Jack 347 00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:37,719 Speaker 2: McKinney's offense, and he starts to institute his own system. 348 00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:40,880 Speaker 2: Riley meanwhile, is trying to support his friend. But he's 349 00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:42,720 Speaker 2: also a guy who had been a player, and he 350 00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:46,680 Speaker 2: gets along with the players and he understands the personalities 351 00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:49,200 Speaker 2: in an intuitive way that we of course have seen 352 00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:51,080 Speaker 2: with pat Riley over the course of his career. So 353 00:19:51,119 --> 00:19:53,480 Speaker 2: this really for pat Riley this season is his sort 354 00:19:53,520 --> 00:19:56,240 Speaker 2: of origin story where he was. You know, this is 355 00:19:56,280 --> 00:19:58,040 Speaker 2: the moment where Bruce Wayne puts on the cape and 356 00:19:58,080 --> 00:20:02,880 Speaker 2: cow and finally becomes, you know, the man he's destined 357 00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:06,960 Speaker 2: to be, but only after a massive kind of catastrophic 358 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:13,280 Speaker 2: clash with with ownership, with management and and with players 359 00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:16,120 Speaker 2: and so yeah, and the way it transpars I don't 360 00:20:16,119 --> 00:20:17,600 Speaker 2: want to give it away. You know, it's one of 361 00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:19,920 Speaker 2: my favorite parts of the season. There's a press conference 362 00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:26,080 Speaker 2: in the middle where where which is We really just 363 00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:30,440 Speaker 2: ripped it from the uh from the transcripts and and 364 00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:32,200 Speaker 2: and we just it was really one of those kind 365 00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:34,640 Speaker 2: of scenes where it's a gift from God and it's 366 00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:38,320 Speaker 2: just do no harm, you know, and try our best. 367 00:20:38,359 --> 00:20:41,200 Speaker 2: So that when you get to this moment where Jerry 368 00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:43,800 Speaker 2: Buss steps up to say who's going to replace Paul 369 00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:45,520 Speaker 2: West and who's going to be the next coach? The 370 00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:49,240 Speaker 2: ultimately the man who becomes the coach of the Showtime Lakers, 371 00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:54,560 Speaker 2: we know how he feels and why why he's absolutely 372 00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:56,760 Speaker 2: at sea and has no idea who he's going to choose, 373 00:20:56,800 --> 00:20:59,320 Speaker 2: and Riley has no idea he's going to become coach. 374 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:02,560 Speaker 2: It's really like one of the sort of the most 375 00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:06,159 Speaker 2: absurd moments in sports history, and I think all the 376 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:09,080 Speaker 2: actors really just nail it. Yeah, and it happened, and literally, 377 00:21:09,119 --> 00:21:12,479 Speaker 2: I mean when people look at a transcript, it's, you know, 378 00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:15,399 Speaker 2: the best stuff in there is just straight. It's just 379 00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:17,440 Speaker 2: just you just lifted it. It's amazing. 380 00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:22,439 Speaker 1: So tell me about the the reaction to the first season. 381 00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:27,239 Speaker 1: I mean, you clearly hit nerves good and bad. You know, 382 00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:31,960 Speaker 1: as you put this out into the world, how did 383 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:35,879 Speaker 1: that reaction, How did the sort of doing of the 384 00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:41,200 Speaker 1: first season dictate how you approached season two and the 385 00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:43,399 Speaker 1: story you decided to tell. 386 00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:47,399 Speaker 2: Well, you know, we we really the first season is 387 00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:52,320 Speaker 2: incredibly heavily researched, and one thing we didn't do is 388 00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:56,159 Speaker 2: really reveal all of our own research to the press. 389 00:21:56,200 --> 00:21:59,480 Speaker 2: And one thing that happened obviously, you know, it's a 390 00:21:59,520 --> 00:22:02,359 Speaker 2: story about real people. A lot of those real people 391 00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:05,639 Speaker 2: are alive, and so they're gonna have their own reactions, 392 00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:07,720 Speaker 2: and we've had, you know, we've had a lot of 393 00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:11,159 Speaker 2: positive reactions, and then obviously some people who've admitted that 394 00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:14,919 Speaker 2: they never watched the show have reacted very negatively. But 395 00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:17,040 Speaker 2: you know that's understandable. I don't know how I would 396 00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:19,679 Speaker 2: react if it was my life. I know that we 397 00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:23,640 Speaker 2: told a heavily research story that we stand by, and 398 00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:26,879 Speaker 2: this season really, you know, we did the same. But 399 00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:31,520 Speaker 2: we you know, we felt that, you know, to be honest, 400 00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:35,040 Speaker 2: you know, a little frustrated when the press didn't do 401 00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:39,119 Speaker 2: their own digging last year, when some people said this 402 00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:41,280 Speaker 2: never happened, and it's like, wait a minute, we got 403 00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:44,560 Speaker 2: that from your memoir. You know, I won't name names, 404 00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:49,159 Speaker 2: but but but that resulted this year in thinking, you 405 00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:52,680 Speaker 2: know what, there's so much information out there, let's let's 406 00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:57,960 Speaker 2: send out a little guide which we put together of 407 00:22:57,960 --> 00:23:01,520 Speaker 2: of just not even exhaustive, but just for the stuff 408 00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:04,440 Speaker 2: that feels they're like, really like this could not possibly 409 00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:05,520 Speaker 2: have happened. 410 00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:07,080 Speaker 1: It? 411 00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:09,960 Speaker 2: Did you know in all those cases it did? You know? 412 00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:12,800 Speaker 2: We obviously it's a drama, it's not a documentary, so 413 00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:17,240 Speaker 2: we're we're compressing time, we're doing things like that, as 414 00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:21,240 Speaker 2: everything does. But for those crazy things, we wanted to 415 00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:24,680 Speaker 2: send out this guy that said, hey, here's here's our receipts. 416 00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:27,560 Speaker 2: Check it out. Not in a defensive way but in 417 00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:30,280 Speaker 2: a kind of excited way, because honestly, you heard me 418 00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:33,160 Speaker 2: going to get passionate about that that press conference. One 419 00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:37,000 Speaker 2: of the fun things about telling this story is that 420 00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:39,480 Speaker 2: it is a true story. And of course we're telling 421 00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:42,399 Speaker 2: it in a in a dramatized way, and we're and 422 00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:45,320 Speaker 2: we're having actors play it, and we're writing scenes that 423 00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:49,200 Speaker 2: you know, happened behind closed doors and bringing it to life. 424 00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:51,760 Speaker 2: But the whole reason to tell it is because of 425 00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:54,600 Speaker 2: the extraordinary things these people accomplished and the extordinary odds 426 00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:56,880 Speaker 2: they faced, and the fact that it really went down 427 00:23:56,960 --> 00:24:01,360 Speaker 2: like this and so and so that we we we 428 00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:03,920 Speaker 2: really the difference this year is how we're sort of 429 00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:07,840 Speaker 2: approaching kind of opening the Kimona and saying here, look, 430 00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:10,880 Speaker 2: here's where, here's here's the true story. And obviously you'll 431 00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:14,240 Speaker 2: be able to see places that we nipped and tucked 432 00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:18,919 Speaker 2: and you know, did our work as dramatists. But I think, 433 00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:22,679 Speaker 2: you know, whatever that does for the actual people who 434 00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:25,159 Speaker 2: who lived through it, they're going to have their own reactions. 435 00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:27,000 Speaker 2: But for us, at least, it gives us a voice 436 00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:28,720 Speaker 2: to be able to say, hey, look at all this 437 00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:34,560 Speaker 2: fun true stuff that that is the backbone of the show. Yeah. 438 00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:37,720 Speaker 1: So so in this massive sea of content that we're 439 00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:42,199 Speaker 1: all swimming in, you know, all the time. Why do 440 00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:46,119 Speaker 1: you think this hit the way it did? Like? What 441 00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:49,200 Speaker 1: was it? I mean, clearly you saw something and I've 442 00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:52,080 Speaker 1: heard you and Jim your your co creator, talk a 443 00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:54,840 Speaker 1: lot about sort of the shared passion you had for it, 444 00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:58,960 Speaker 1: even you know, Jeff Brown's sort of centiicism initially about like, yeah, 445 00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:01,560 Speaker 1: I've seen this, you know, I've seen you Hollywood guys 446 00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:04,959 Speaker 1: before trying you know, make something that that that I've written. 447 00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:10,600 Speaker 1: But clearly it had it hit in a certain way. 448 00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:15,560 Speaker 1: What why? And what do you think really differentiates it 449 00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:17,400 Speaker 1: from from the other stuff that's out there? 450 00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:20,560 Speaker 2: You know? For me, I commonly speak for me because 451 00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:22,879 Speaker 2: I who know, you know, I think divining why a 452 00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:26,080 Speaker 2: thing hits and doesn't hit is sure. You know, if 453 00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:29,600 Speaker 2: anyone knew that, then I think this business would be 454 00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:32,760 Speaker 2: very different right everything. But for me personally, I think, 455 00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:34,800 Speaker 2: you know, I think I can say that I know 456 00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:40,520 Speaker 2: that everyone involved is really passionate about it, not just 457 00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:44,720 Speaker 2: because we love basketball, we love the story. Different people 458 00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:48,760 Speaker 2: have different points of entry. For me, it's I love 459 00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:52,400 Speaker 2: origin stories and I love American stories. I love stories 460 00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:54,560 Speaker 2: that kind of you know, and I you know, for me, 461 00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:58,359 Speaker 2: it like speaks to me in a personal way, and 462 00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:00,480 Speaker 2: I think it speaks to people in a person way 463 00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:04,320 Speaker 2: when you see that very American kind of story of 464 00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:08,840 Speaker 2: an underdog sort of situation. And we now know these 465 00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:12,639 Speaker 2: people become legends, they become icons, but seeing that origin 466 00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:17,040 Speaker 2: story of how they actually were by no means destined 467 00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:20,760 Speaker 2: to become icons. And if anything, the odds were dead 468 00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:24,159 Speaker 2: set against them in every way at every level, like 469 00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:27,479 Speaker 2: not only from the you know, from the standpoint of 470 00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:29,920 Speaker 2: like are these basketball players going to be successful as 471 00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:33,440 Speaker 2: basketball players? Is the sport itself going to survive? Can 472 00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:36,920 Speaker 2: Jerry bust this guy who's spinning plates and flying by 473 00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:39,840 Speaker 2: the seat of his pants and you know, some combination 474 00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:43,320 Speaker 2: of P. T. Barnum and you know and Louis B. Mayer. 475 00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:46,879 Speaker 2: Can he pull together this you know, this thing to 476 00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:50,560 Speaker 2: be anything more than a just a catastrophic failure. None 477 00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:54,040 Speaker 2: of those things were foregone conclusions. And to me as 478 00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:58,280 Speaker 2: someone who you know, like, you know, I'm a writer, 479 00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:00,879 Speaker 2: but I know, but everyone as a dream, you know, 480 00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:06,560 Speaker 2: everyone comes, Everyone in America is encouraged. That's what we're taught, right, 481 00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:09,359 Speaker 2: is that that sort of core American thing, is this 482 00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:13,400 Speaker 2: idea of pursuing that which makes you passionate, which gets 483 00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:16,320 Speaker 2: you up in the morning, and not everyone does it 484 00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:18,119 Speaker 2: at work, some people do it at home. And by 485 00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:19,879 Speaker 2: the way, I think right now, there's a lot of 486 00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:22,679 Speaker 2: cynicism about it because a lot of the systems that 487 00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:26,000 Speaker 2: supported that and that felt like there was opportunity for 488 00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:30,800 Speaker 2: the last century in America have not been delivering, and 489 00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:33,320 Speaker 2: there's generation of people who feel like that's not the 490 00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:36,560 Speaker 2: case anymore. To me, this show speaks to that moment 491 00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:39,919 Speaker 2: of hope and that belief that like even for a 492 00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:42,240 Speaker 2: guy who comes out of the depression as Bus did, 493 00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:46,080 Speaker 2: where he saw, you know, an economy that was far 494 00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:49,480 Speaker 2: worse than the economy today and a world and lived through, 495 00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:53,040 Speaker 2: you know, a world that faced struggles every bit as 496 00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:55,520 Speaker 2: challenging as the ones we had. There was something about 497 00:27:55,560 --> 00:28:00,840 Speaker 2: his almost absurd, cock eyed optimism that was able to 498 00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:04,119 Speaker 2: see through that vision and do it in a way 499 00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:09,800 Speaker 2: that is one of the inspiring, great, beautiful stories of 500 00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:14,800 Speaker 2: business success and ambition in America as opposed to so 501 00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:17,600 Speaker 2: many which have a glimmer of that. And then you 502 00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:19,639 Speaker 2: look at like, you know, the giant trash heap in 503 00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:22,040 Speaker 2: the middle of the ocean, and climate change and things 504 00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:24,760 Speaker 2: that make you feel like, well, there's so much awful 505 00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:28,399 Speaker 2: fallout of that kind of cock eyed optimism. But in 506 00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:31,399 Speaker 2: this case, I think you have a story where the 507 00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:34,680 Speaker 2: NBA is going strong, you know. I mean, obviously there's 508 00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:37,200 Speaker 2: pluses and minuses to everything, but I think it really 509 00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:41,640 Speaker 2: is a beautiful, sort of redemptive and inspirational kind of story. 510 00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:44,440 Speaker 2: And the way that we seek to tell it is 511 00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:46,680 Speaker 2: in a human way where we're not just kind of 512 00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:50,440 Speaker 2: showing the Wikipedia page of what happened, but we're trying 513 00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:54,880 Speaker 2: to get into the minds and the emotional life of 514 00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:58,360 Speaker 2: these people. And that's something we haven't really seen much of. Oddly, 515 00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:01,240 Speaker 2: like we see athletes and we think we know them 516 00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:04,320 Speaker 2: and we know what their brand is, but there hasn't 517 00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:07,080 Speaker 2: really been a show which was you know, Jim, and 518 00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:09,360 Speaker 2: I initially kind of like the thing that got me 519 00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:12,640 Speaker 2: excited was it I would suddenly realize no one had 520 00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:15,360 Speaker 2: actually done this. There had never been a television show 521 00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:20,400 Speaker 2: about an actual team. And it's a dynasty story, it's 522 00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:24,800 Speaker 2: a workplace drama, you know, it's a family drama, you know. 523 00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:27,440 Speaker 2: And I think we're able to bring all of those 524 00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:30,520 Speaker 2: flavors into it, and it's one that deals with a 525 00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:36,920 Speaker 2: lot of the great sort of themes of our of America, 526 00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:40,600 Speaker 2: you know, and you know, with Jim, with Rodney Barnes, 527 00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:45,320 Speaker 2: you know, we're able to really dig into a lot 528 00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:47,560 Speaker 2: of that stuff in a way that hopefully preserves the 529 00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:50,040 Speaker 2: fun and games, which I think is the thing that 530 00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:52,880 Speaker 2: maybe gets people in the door and then has stuff 531 00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:56,320 Speaker 2: that makes you cry and a lot. One of my favorite, 532 00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:58,800 Speaker 2: you know, responses that I get over and over is, 533 00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:00,840 Speaker 2: you know, it'll be from some guy who's like, my 534 00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:05,000 Speaker 2: wife doesn't even like sports, or you know, or you know, 535 00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:09,080 Speaker 2: my kids hate basketball and they love the show, and 536 00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:13,040 Speaker 2: it gives them a window into it, and you know, 537 00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:15,680 Speaker 2: in the same way that any kind of great, you know, 538 00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:18,840 Speaker 2: television drama can hopefully bring you into a world that's 539 00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:20,040 Speaker 2: you know, that's our aspiration. 540 00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:23,840 Speaker 1: Max Bornstein is the co creator, show runner, writer, executive 541 00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:26,280 Speaker 1: producer of Winning Time season two. 542 00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:27,280 Speaker 2: It's out now. 543 00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:29,000 Speaker 1: Thank you so much, really good to spend. 544 00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:30,800 Speaker 2: Some time with you. Really good, Jason. Thank you for 545 00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:32,040 Speaker 2: having me. I appreciate it. 546 00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:36,000 Speaker 1: Thanks so much for listening to the special edition of 547 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:39,080 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Business of Sports. Check out season two of Winning 548 00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:42,520 Speaker 1: Time on HBO. It's now streaming and for more of 549 00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:45,479 Speaker 1: our work exploring the intersection of business, sports, and culture, 550 00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:49,040 Speaker 1: check out bloomberg dot com slash Originals. You'll find shows 551 00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:52,000 Speaker 1: like our Next in Sports DOCKU series, profiles of athletes 552 00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:55,160 Speaker 1: and team owners, and much much more. I'm Jason Kelly. 553 00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:56,000 Speaker 1: Talk to you soon. 554 00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:00,720 Speaker 2: Whe