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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class from how

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Speaker 1: Stuff Works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast.

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Speaker 1: I'm editor Kane to Skipson, joined by staff Riyar Chamber, Heather,

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Speaker 1: Candice Jane. What's your favorite icon? Um? Maybe Mr Clean. Oh,

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Speaker 1: that's a good choice. I'm partial to and I also

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Speaker 1: like um the snuggle bear you know from Is It Downy? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: I think so. Advertisers have a way of hooking us

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Speaker 1: and drawing us to their products, and even if we

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Speaker 1: don't go out and buy the products, we still have

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Speaker 1: an allegiance to them because they have this cute or

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Speaker 1: quirky or tough character that we associate with it. That's true,

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Speaker 1: and we were sort of convinced by the way they

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Speaker 1: look the visual representation of it. It's very convincing. And

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Speaker 1: that's the power of propaganda really, and propaganda, depending on

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Speaker 1: how you look at it, can be a good or

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Speaker 1: or a bad thing. Essentially, when propaganda convinces a bunch

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Speaker 1: of people to act in a way that benefits you know,

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Speaker 1: a nation or an organization, it has a pretty positive effect.

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Speaker 1: But when propaganda convinces people to act out negatively or

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Speaker 1: to act in ways that don't benefit mankind. That's when

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Speaker 1: we say it's you know, it's bad propagandas right, And

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Speaker 1: one of the most famous instances of I guess bad

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Speaker 1: propaganda would be, uh, during the Nazi regime in Germany,

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Speaker 1: Like they had this whole machine basically that produced propaganda

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Speaker 1: to sway people over to the Nazi side, and various

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Speaker 1: forms of propaganda, not just posters, but film and I

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Speaker 1: think even music and even just I guess efforts. Really,

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Speaker 1: if you could call efforts propaganda, I think that they

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Speaker 1: made radios readily available so the people could hear broadcasts

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Speaker 1: from Hitler and as far as the Americans go, during

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Speaker 1: World War Two, if you ask anyone whether my ist

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Speaker 1: famous propaganda icon is from that era, I bet you

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Speaker 1: dollars to donuts that most people will say Rosie the

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Speaker 1: Versie the Riveter. And ironically enough, yeah, the image of

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Speaker 1: Versie the Riveter was produced during World War Two, but

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Speaker 1: it wasn't popularized until the nineteen eighties. And I think

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Speaker 1: that's where people really get the story of Rosie wrong. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's right. And the name Rosie was known during the

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Speaker 1: war and it was associated with women, women taking up

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Speaker 1: the man's role in the workplace. But it didn't. It

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Speaker 1: didn't actually have the picture that we associate with it today,

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Speaker 1: which was the we can do it lady with the

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Speaker 1: polka dot scarf on her head and the defiant look

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Speaker 1: in her eyes. Um. Rosie was known more so, um

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Speaker 1: won by a song. A song was written about Rosie

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Speaker 1: and uh that that was pretty popular, and I think

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Speaker 1: it was forty two and uh then by forty three, um,

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Speaker 1: the famous Norman Rockwell had had drawn his version of

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Speaker 1: Rosie and that was the picture that was actually very

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Speaker 1: famous during the war in America. Yeah, and as famous

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Speaker 1: as Rockwell is and his images from the Saturday Evening Post.

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Speaker 1: When I saw this image of Rosie the Riveter, I've

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Speaker 1: never seen it before, and it kind of took me

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Speaker 1: aback because I'm used to the iconic one with the

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Speaker 1: other background and the very jaunty head scarf and the

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Speaker 1: eyeliner and you know, very long eyelashes, very feminine Rosie

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Speaker 1: and we'll get to her in a second. But Rockwell's

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Speaker 1: Rosie is really really tough looking. Yeah. It's interesting. It's

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Speaker 1: very different to look at the two next to each other,

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Speaker 1: because like the Rosie, Rockwells Rosie is sort of she's

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Speaker 1: a relaxed story to she's taking a break from her work.

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Speaker 1: She has this lord, she has her tools on her,

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Speaker 1: she has goggles and everything, and she's just eating her

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Speaker 1: lunch on her break and and she's just sort of like, yeah, whatever.

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Speaker 1: And we know it's Rosie because on her lunch pail

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Speaker 1: it says Rosie and white letters. And Rockwell's paintings are

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Speaker 1: infused with so much symbolism. And if you really steady

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Speaker 1: this painting close so you can see all sorts of

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Speaker 1: things that that Rockwell is trying to get across to us.

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Speaker 1: For one, um, there's a flag in the background. She's

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Speaker 1: wearing a red cross button. I think she's got a

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Speaker 1: V for victory button. And she's seen in this very

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Speaker 1: all American bologna sandwich. And my favorite part of the

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Speaker 1: little clues inside is that she's standing on her for

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Speaker 1: her foot is over um the famous bookmont comp of course,

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Speaker 1: the autobiography of Adolf Hitler. So there you go that

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Speaker 1: packs of powerful statement in and of itself. And you

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Speaker 1: mentioned that she has tools in her lap, and we

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Speaker 1: should mention one of the tools or the main tool,

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Speaker 1: really is a riveting tool. So she is by all

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Speaker 1: definitions and all purposes a riveter. And so we have

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Speaker 1: this amalgamation of Americana and anti Nazi sentiment and femininity

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Speaker 1: because she is still a woman, and even though she

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Speaker 1: has muscles and she is you know and sort of

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Speaker 1: I guess traditional male garb, she does exude a certain

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Speaker 1: sense of femininity. Yeah, she's stills makeup on and she

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Speaker 1: she sort of embodies both both sides, I guess. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And the thing that really touched me, and I didn't

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Speaker 1: see this connection on my own I I read about

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Speaker 1: it was that her stance actually mimics that of the

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Speaker 1: prophet Isaiah from the Sistine Chapel. Yeah, I read that too,

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Speaker 1: and that really shocked me into I went and looked

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Speaker 1: it up that that picture, and it really is strikingly similar.

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Speaker 1: That rock Will must have taken it from that, and

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Speaker 1: you get that sense that this image of Rosie, it's

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Speaker 1: very much Steve in antiquity and a higher purpose of sorts,

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Speaker 1: and he's almost making her an arc type, not just

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Speaker 1: for women, but just you know, for for people. You know,

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Speaker 1: this is what we should be during war time. We

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Speaker 1: should be active and proactive citizens who are educated and

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Speaker 1: patriotic and and doing what's right, And I guess the

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Speaker 1: word do that brings us back to the other image

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Speaker 1: of Rosie, the idea that Rosie was an empowering female

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Speaker 1: figure who told everyone that we can do. That's how

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Speaker 1: I think many of us look at her today, because

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Speaker 1: I think that most of us would imagine this other

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Speaker 1: polka dotted Rosie on color as opposed to the rackwell

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Speaker 1: rose a. Yeah, and like I said, it's much more defiant.

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Speaker 1: It like challenges the viewer to look at it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And I think that the history most of us know

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Speaker 1: behind this particular image is that it was propaganda, maybe

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Speaker 1: on behalf of the U. S. Government, maybe on behalf

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Speaker 1: of the National ad Council, and it was designed to

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Speaker 1: draw women into the workplace and motivate them to go

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Speaker 1: fill these wartime factory or other jobs like postal worker

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Speaker 1: jobs that had been vacated after the men had gone

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Speaker 1: to the battlefront. And that's not the case, that's right,

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Speaker 1: and it's it's it's an easy assumption to make comparing it,

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Speaker 1: especially to the Nazis of the time, like they were

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Speaker 1: actually the government was producing this propaganda where that that

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Speaker 1: wasn't the case for this this Rosie. She was actually

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Speaker 1: to demestify her a little bit. Drawn by J. Howard Miller,

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Speaker 1: and he didn't draw her of his own volition. He

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Speaker 1: was employed by an advertising agency and he was doing

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Speaker 1: this for Western as Electric Company. And the idea was

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Speaker 1: that this was a poster that was supposed to be

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Speaker 1: displayed for a very specific amount of time. Um, I

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Speaker 1: think even on the bottom of the poster you can

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Speaker 1: see in faint leonards it's just post from fed fifteen

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Speaker 1: through twenty eight, so much time. No, it's it's not,

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Speaker 1: But I guess it served its purpose. And there's a

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Speaker 1: long history behind Westinghouse Electric in manufacturing company and their factories.

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Speaker 1: They had many, many series of posters like this designed

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Speaker 1: to motivate and energize their workers. They weren't drawing people

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Speaker 1: into the workplace, they were trying to motivate those who

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Speaker 1: were already there. And furthermore, even if this Rosie was

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Speaker 1: trying to communicate a public message, it wouldn't have been

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Speaker 1: public beyond the walls of Westinghouse because it's intended for

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Speaker 1: private use only. So you can make the case that

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Speaker 1: this isn't this isn't for recruitment at all. This this

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Speaker 1: we can do it, Rosie, This was um. Uh what

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Speaker 1: I read was it was it um Rosie the polka

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Speaker 1: dotta Rosie could actually be away to um discourage sort

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Speaker 1: of labor labor movements inside of these Westinghouse factories that

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Speaker 1: they were sort of because communism was it was beginning

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Speaker 1: to be a problem. And uh so um the company

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Speaker 1: would would commission these these posters not to say, hey, women,

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Speaker 1: you should take up your man's work, but but instead

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Speaker 1: be like, do your job. And I think there were

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Speaker 1: actually three specific goals that Westinghouse had in mind behind

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Speaker 1: this pocad dot at Rosie and other posters and series

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Speaker 1: similar to that, and that was too increase production, decrease absenteeism,

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Speaker 1: and to keep strikes at bay. No one wanted that

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Speaker 1: rising in the factories. And when we look at this Rosie,

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Speaker 1: you know, like we sort of picked apart rockwells Rosie.

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Speaker 1: The different symbols there. There weren't many symbols when it

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Speaker 1: comes to PoCA dot at roseye to J. Howard Miller Rosie.

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Speaker 1: But you can see she is a Westinghouse employee. She

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Speaker 1: has the name tag on in the body of corner

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Speaker 1: it says Westinghouse. And I think a lot of reproductions today.

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Speaker 1: Jay Howard Miller's name has been cropped out, but clearly

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Speaker 1: this was produced on behalf of Westinghouse. And she is very,

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Speaker 1: very feminine, even more so compared to the Rockwell Rosie.

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Speaker 1: You can clearly see in her hand that she's wearing

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Speaker 1: a touch of neal polos. You can see the eyeliner,

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Speaker 1: you can see her momscara, you can see the little

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Speaker 1: curls of her hair underneath her head scarf. She's much

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Speaker 1: more attractive than the Rockwell Rosie in a lot of ways.

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Speaker 1: She is, and if you look at other posters that J.

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Speaker 1: Howard Miller designed, you can see that that's not uncommon.

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Speaker 1: She's actually the most rough and tumble of all the

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Speaker 1: women featured on Miller's posters. We see, you know, a

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Speaker 1: lot of the World War two sentiment or women are like,

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Speaker 1: you know, crying and maybe a caption was, you know,

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Speaker 1: um wanting won't bring him home any stereotypical with the

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Speaker 1: stereotypical woman who's wasting away at home waiting for a

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Speaker 1: man to come back. The idea of being go ahead

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Speaker 1: and get into the factory. We know that's not the

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Speaker 1: case with Miller's Rosie, but we know, through and through

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Speaker 1: she is a Westinghouse girl. And it's so funny because

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Speaker 1: if you look at some of the photographs of other

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Speaker 1: Westinghouse employees, or you read about Westinghouse history, you know

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Speaker 1: that that upward thrust of the fest is characteristic of

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Speaker 1: that company because they used to use it at meetings

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Speaker 1: or rallies to motivate the workers. So while today we

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Speaker 1: had a very feminist spent on what Rosie is saying,

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Speaker 1: we can do with that upward thrust of the fest

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Speaker 1: that would have been typical of men and women in

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Speaker 1: Westinghouse factories during World War Two. And it's it's interesting

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Speaker 1: also how this sort of flipped around, how like in

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Speaker 1: during World War Two, this Rockwell Rosie was the more

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Speaker 1: popular one, and how how this one came to be

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Speaker 1: if it was only seen by you know, so many

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Speaker 1: people working in those factories in those few months, um,

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Speaker 1: those few weeks. Uh. And it's interesting because it all

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Speaker 1: comes down to the fact that Rockwell's painting is actually copyrighted.

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Speaker 1: It's a copyrighted image and so you know, um, you

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Speaker 1: have to pay money to use it and or it's

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Speaker 1: like a protected but um Miller's uh drawing actually didn't

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Speaker 1: have any such protection, and so people could use it

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Speaker 1: for whatever they want, and it fit into the the

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Speaker 1: feminist um uh theory so well that it became so

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Speaker 1: popular and actually um succeed like it's a superseded Rockwell's painting.

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Speaker 1: I guess yeah. I think that today the National Archives

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Speaker 1: say it's one of the top ten most requested images.

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Speaker 1: And I think that as far as phonists go and

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Speaker 1: the idea of correcting the misconceptions we have behind Rosie,

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Speaker 1: this is a perfect demonstration, like we said, because she

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Speaker 1: was representative of of the men and women in Westinghouse factories.

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Speaker 1: That speaks volumes because other women who went to work

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Speaker 1: not just as riveters, but in other fields of the

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Speaker 1: manufacturing industry or even as postal workers. When the men

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Speaker 1: came back from war, they were asked to leave their jobs.

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Speaker 1: You know, this wasn't the huge floodgate opening of women

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Speaker 1: shuffling into the workplace that we would like to think

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Speaker 1: and hope that it was. I think, like, you did

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Speaker 1: your job and now you know, go home. Yeah, we

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Speaker 1: appreciate it, thanks a lot. We're done here. And I

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Speaker 1: think to an extent it did open a floodgat of

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Speaker 1: source because women saw that they were capable, that you know,

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Speaker 1: they could do men's work. It wasn't as hard as

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Speaker 1: they had imagined. They could still be feminine and still

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Speaker 1: be women while they did it. But there was also

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Speaker 1: a very early type of glass ceiling that we see too,

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Speaker 1: because even though they were doing the same work that

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Speaker 1: men had done before the war, they weren't getting paid

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Speaker 1: as much. And there weren't as many women coming into

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Speaker 1: the workplace from homes and the private sector as there

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Speaker 1: were women who were already in the workplace, or minority women,

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Speaker 1: un married women who were just getting into these manufacturing

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Speaker 1: positions to get higher wages. That's what I was surprised at.

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Speaker 1: You know, you we we buy into this myth that um,

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Speaker 1: all of a sudden, mothers started to start working at

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Speaker 1: factories where like the fathers were in the family were

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Speaker 1: and and that wasn't really the case. It was women

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Speaker 1: who were not married housewives. They were just looking for,

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Speaker 1: you know, a job to feed themselves, right, And that's

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Speaker 1: an important detail to know. If you look at Rockwell's

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Speaker 1: Rosie and Miller's Rosie and nine, there is wearing a

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Speaker 1: wedding ring at any swords and uh one thing that

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Speaker 1: also a slide thing about Rockwell's Rosie is that she's

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Speaker 1: actually wearing loafers as opposed to what men of the

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Speaker 1: time would be wearing, which would steel toed boots for

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Speaker 1: a riveter, like you're doing this heavy work and you

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Speaker 1: should have protected feet. And they actually didn't make uh

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Speaker 1: these steel toed um women's shoes at the time until

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Speaker 1: a little bit later, like towards the end of the war.

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Speaker 1: And um, so it was actually very accurate and Rockwell

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Speaker 1: to incorporate those brown loafers into Rosy. Yeah, they got

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Speaker 1: all the details right. And it seems so ironic today

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Speaker 1: that you can get this famous miller. We can do

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Speaker 1: an image on everything from ovenmits, aprons to coffee cups.

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Speaker 1: I mean things we may associate with a housewife, you know,

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Speaker 1: an apron and an oven met, but it's an image

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Speaker 1: that people are very fond of, you know, almost as

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Speaker 1: fond as I am of you know, a little little

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Speaker 1: snuggle bear. So um. Now, hopefully you know the real

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Speaker 1: story of Rosie Riter and you won't make a mistake

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Speaker 1: that many many people do about her. And if you

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Speaker 1: want to learn even more about Rosie in World War

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Speaker 1: two history and just women in general. Be sure to

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Speaker 1: visit how stuff works dot com. For more on this

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Speaker 1: and thousands of other topics. Visit how stuff works dot com.

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Speaker 1: Let us know what you think. Send an email to

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Speaker 1: podcast at how stuff works dot com