1 00:00:01,400 --> 00:00:06,720 Speaker 1: Body Doors with Joseph's Gotten More. I don't get to 2 00:00:06,760 --> 00:00:10,200 Speaker 1: watch movies like I used to, or at least let 3 00:00:10,280 --> 00:00:12,959 Speaker 1: me rephrase that I don't have the ability to watch 4 00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:18,320 Speaker 1: movies like I used to. For one, most of the 5 00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:22,360 Speaker 1: stuff that comes out is a repeat of something else 6 00:00:22,400 --> 00:00:25,239 Speaker 1: that's already been done. It's not much effort put into it, 7 00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:33,879 Speaker 1: relative for writing. And secondly, I fall asleep. I just can't. 8 00:00:34,159 --> 00:00:37,560 Speaker 1: I can't avoid it. I'll sit there and I will 9 00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:40,240 Speaker 1: try and watch a movie and I just can't stay 10 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:47,640 Speaker 1: awake anymore. I don't know. It's an odd thing, because boy, 11 00:00:47,640 --> 00:00:53,560 Speaker 1: I used to really enjoy watching films, and I watched 12 00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:56,800 Speaker 1: a variety of things, you know. Plus I had small kids, 13 00:00:56,800 --> 00:01:00,360 Speaker 1: so I was introduced into the Marvel universe or Leon. 14 00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:02,880 Speaker 1: I wouldn't walk across the street to watch one of 15 00:01:02,920 --> 00:01:08,280 Speaker 1: those movies now. But you know, I like, I liked 16 00:01:08,880 --> 00:01:11,880 Speaker 1: you know, more intellectual things as well over the years. 17 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:17,080 Speaker 1: Room with a View. You know, I don't know, uh uh, 18 00:01:17,200 --> 00:01:18,120 Speaker 1: let's see what else. 19 00:01:18,600 --> 00:01:19,039 Speaker 2: Uh. 20 00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:23,520 Speaker 1: I guess probably Kelly's Heroes that that's that's really intellectual. 21 00:01:23,880 --> 00:01:28,240 Speaker 1: But anyway, today we're going to talk about a man 22 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:38,120 Speaker 1: who utilized a particular type of technology that actually comes 23 00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:43,560 Speaker 1: up in a very very famous and well known Steven 24 00:01:43,560 --> 00:01:51,160 Speaker 1: Spielberg movie. Of course, I'm talking about Jurassic Park. And 25 00:01:51,200 --> 00:01:58,960 Speaker 1: the reason that it's significant is that this methodology that 26 00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:07,080 Speaker 1: this man worked on has led to the exoneration, to 27 00:02:07,160 --> 00:02:10,320 Speaker 1: the best of my knowledge, of at least fifty people 28 00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:17,760 Speaker 1: that were in prison wrongly convicted, and now this man 29 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:25,560 Speaker 1: has in fact passed on. Of course, I'm talking about 30 00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:32,480 Speaker 1: doctor Edward T. Blake. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this 31 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:38,160 Speaker 1: is Bodybags. Hey, Dave, I'm going to do something right 32 00:02:38,240 --> 00:02:41,680 Speaker 1: now that I have never done with you, and it 33 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:45,079 Speaker 1: may fall flat. I have no idea, but I've got 34 00:02:45,160 --> 00:02:47,800 Speaker 1: to tell you. I've got to tell you a joke. 35 00:02:48,160 --> 00:02:53,640 Speaker 1: Are you ready? And that this is, you know, a 36 00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:57,200 Speaker 1: career ending decision potentially, you know, because my timing is 37 00:02:57,240 --> 00:03:00,320 Speaker 1: not that good. But this is an old corner joke 38 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:04,960 Speaker 1: about a corner that is on the stand, and it's 39 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:08,200 Speaker 1: been through the years. I've heard it because it's either 40 00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:11,840 Speaker 1: a corner or forensic pathologist. So let me go ahead 41 00:03:11,880 --> 00:03:14,400 Speaker 1: and give this a whirl and just just see. So 42 00:03:14,480 --> 00:03:19,400 Speaker 1: imagine you're in a courtroom and there's a corner you know, 43 00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:24,360 Speaker 1: seated in the chair adjacent to the bench, you know, 44 00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:28,959 Speaker 1: judge in their stately robes, and there is this fast 45 00:03:28,960 --> 00:03:34,840 Speaker 1: talking lawyer that is there and questioning the corner. And 46 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:40,320 Speaker 1: it goes like this, lawyer, did you check for a 47 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:47,600 Speaker 1: pulse before you perform the autopsy? Corner? No? Did you 48 00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:52,920 Speaker 1: check for a blood pressure no? Did you check for 49 00:03:53,080 --> 00:03:58,640 Speaker 1: breathing No? So then it is possible that the patient 50 00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:04,880 Speaker 1: was a lot when you began the autopsy. No, how 51 00:04:04,880 --> 00:04:09,920 Speaker 1: can you be so sure, doctor, because his brain was 52 00:04:09,960 --> 00:04:14,520 Speaker 1: sitting on my desk in a jar. But could the 53 00:04:14,600 --> 00:04:21,280 Speaker 1: patients still have been alive? Nevertheless, corner staring into the 54 00:04:21,320 --> 00:04:25,080 Speaker 1: eyes of the attorney, it's possible that he could have 55 00:04:25,080 --> 00:04:31,599 Speaker 1: been alive in practicing law somewhere. So when we talk 56 00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:35,920 Speaker 1: about Blake, doctor Blake, though he was not a corner 57 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:42,000 Speaker 1: or a pathologist, he's a forensic scientist, a DNA guy. 58 00:04:42,160 --> 00:04:48,920 Speaker 1: He took a very contemptible view of lawyers in particular. 59 00:04:49,640 --> 00:04:52,760 Speaker 1: And here's why. And you encounter this many times with 60 00:04:52,839 --> 00:04:59,839 Speaker 1: people that are scientists that have to undergo cross examination. 61 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:07,119 Speaker 1: And because you know a scientist is not I would 62 00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:10,040 Speaker 1: say that they're not as inclined to be a fan 63 00:05:10,160 --> 00:05:17,080 Speaker 1: of theater, all right. And the courtroom, as we all know, 64 00:05:18,080 --> 00:05:22,200 Speaker 1: is is a you know, it's a location for theater. 65 00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:26,200 Speaker 1: You have a lot of bombastic people that are in there, 66 00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:29,560 Speaker 1: you know, making proclamations and that sort of thing. Scientists 67 00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:32,760 Speaker 1: tend to be very black and white people, you know, 68 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:35,280 Speaker 1: they kind of look it straight down the line and 69 00:05:35,279 --> 00:05:40,640 Speaker 1: and what's the popular term they use now? All conversations 70 00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:44,040 Speaker 1: are very nuanced when it comes to attorneys. And I'm 71 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:46,600 Speaker 1: being very kind there because you know, you can take 72 00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:49,359 Speaker 1: a set of circumstances and kind of uh, you know, 73 00:05:49,480 --> 00:05:52,280 Speaker 1: twist the language a little bit, and you come out 74 00:05:52,320 --> 00:05:55,080 Speaker 1: with a different result, and of course that result influences 75 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:58,440 Speaker 1: the decision makers that are you know, impaneled on the jury. 76 00:05:59,120 --> 00:06:01,240 Speaker 1: And Blake didn't have a lot of time for that. 77 00:06:01,440 --> 00:06:06,920 Speaker 1: He was not that guy. And he crossed swords for 78 00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:10,440 Speaker 1: a number of years with attorneys, and I would imagine 79 00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:13,680 Speaker 1: there were attorneys out there saying, oh no, he's on 80 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:14,559 Speaker 1: the witness list. 81 00:06:15,360 --> 00:06:17,720 Speaker 2: You know, it's funny when you and I when you 82 00:06:17,800 --> 00:06:21,400 Speaker 2: mentioned Blake and his passing last week, when we were 83 00:06:21,440 --> 00:06:24,880 Speaker 2: just talking about doing upcoming shows, and I thought, Okay, 84 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:27,680 Speaker 2: well who is this guy? And when you do a 85 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:32,120 Speaker 2: quick look, it pops up immediately about the Innocence Project 86 00:06:32,640 --> 00:06:35,479 Speaker 2: and how Peter Neufeld referred to him, You am a 87 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:38,080 Speaker 2: co founder of the Innocence Project, and he compared to 88 00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:41,279 Speaker 2: a baseball analogy, and it was that Major League Baseball, 89 00:06:41,279 --> 00:06:43,600 Speaker 2: there are a lot of three hundred hitters and then 90 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:47,480 Speaker 2: there's Ted Williams. Right, Edward Blake is the Ted Williams 91 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:52,440 Speaker 2: of DNA. But I look at the credibility and accountability 92 00:06:52,440 --> 00:06:55,000 Speaker 2: of character in these individuals that you mentioned going to 93 00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:59,760 Speaker 2: the courtroom to testify, Because if one thing has been 94 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:02,800 Speaker 2: prove and over time, is you can, with the right 95 00:07:02,839 --> 00:07:05,680 Speaker 2: amount of money by an expert, to tell your side 96 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:09,279 Speaker 2: of the story from the witness stand and actually tell 97 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:12,280 Speaker 2: it without lying. You know, that's something that can be done. 98 00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:16,240 Speaker 2: Science is a very interesting thing like that, and how 99 00:07:16,320 --> 00:07:20,080 Speaker 2: you talk about science in different aspects, in particular with DNA. 100 00:07:20,560 --> 00:07:24,800 Speaker 2: But when Edward T. Blake was brought into the discussion 101 00:07:24,880 --> 00:07:28,880 Speaker 2: about being on OJ Simpson's dream team in at trial, 102 00:07:29,880 --> 00:07:33,520 Speaker 2: he was actually on their witness list and then removed. 103 00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:37,520 Speaker 2: Blake was removed from the witness list for OJ Simpson, 104 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:42,080 Speaker 2: not because he was going to contradict the DNA evidence, 105 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:44,360 Speaker 2: or that he was going to say anything about it 106 00:07:44,400 --> 00:07:48,200 Speaker 2: at all. They being the defense, they were picking apart 107 00:07:48,360 --> 00:07:51,800 Speaker 2: the prosecution case step by step, and one of those 108 00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:55,760 Speaker 2: was to pick apart the lab in Oakland that the 109 00:07:55,880 --> 00:08:00,400 Speaker 2: Justice Department runs, that was used by the Loss Angelo's 110 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:04,640 Speaker 2: Police department when they were getting the DNA test run 111 00:08:05,080 --> 00:08:08,360 Speaker 2: on the blood and stuff, and they wanted to testify, 112 00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:12,560 Speaker 2: wanted him to testify as to the actual lab and 113 00:08:12,640 --> 00:08:16,120 Speaker 2: how it was run. And the problem with that was 114 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:21,440 Speaker 2: that Blake would not give them the testimony they wanted. 115 00:08:21,960 --> 00:08:26,080 Speaker 2: He wouldn't. He couldn't be bought. And you know, that's 116 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:28,680 Speaker 2: an actual real opinion. It's kind of like you could 117 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:32,000 Speaker 2: look at my desk and Joseph Scott Morgan's desk and 118 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:35,040 Speaker 2: say that Dave mac is a slob, his desk is 119 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:38,200 Speaker 2: a mess. Look at Joe's. Joe's desk is perfect. You know, 120 00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:40,160 Speaker 2: everything's right where it needs to be. That's the right 121 00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:43,560 Speaker 2: way to run a desk, and they'd be actually one 122 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:46,880 Speaker 2: hundred percent accurate. Blake wasn't willing to do that. And 123 00:08:46,920 --> 00:08:48,880 Speaker 2: it's not just because the guy that ran the lab 124 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:51,760 Speaker 2: was a former student of his. It's just he couldn't 125 00:08:51,800 --> 00:08:54,280 Speaker 2: be bought to tell a story that he did not 126 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:54,960 Speaker 2: believe in. 127 00:08:55,880 --> 00:08:58,880 Speaker 1: Well, here's I'm going to take you back in tom 128 00:08:58,920 --> 00:09:04,320 Speaker 1: a little bit. And I was being mentored by the 129 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:07,600 Speaker 1: man that you know, I credit with my career, really, uh, 130 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:12,840 Speaker 1: the finest forensic scientist I ever knew. He's passed on now, 131 00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:18,559 Speaker 1: God rest his soul. My friend Bill, Bill threw a 132 00:09:18,679 --> 00:09:20,640 Speaker 1: term up at me at one point in time, and 133 00:09:20,679 --> 00:09:22,560 Speaker 1: I'd never heard it, and I was, you know, I 134 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:24,880 Speaker 1: was in neophyte. I mean, you know, I knew nothing, 135 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:28,800 Speaker 1: and he had he had taken several trips around the 136 00:09:28,840 --> 00:09:33,280 Speaker 1: sun in the world of forensics. He was not reural old, 137 00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:36,480 Speaker 1: but he had. Bill was one of these people that 138 00:09:36,679 --> 00:09:42,280 Speaker 1: had just completely uh you know, submerged himself in the 139 00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:45,680 Speaker 1: world of forensics and was so well read. And he 140 00:09:45,720 --> 00:09:48,280 Speaker 1: threw a term out to me, Dave that uh for 141 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:53,920 Speaker 1: the first time, and it was called uh hm, forensic prostitute. 142 00:09:54,679 --> 00:09:57,880 Speaker 1: And you've and over the years I've heard this. Now. 143 00:09:57,920 --> 00:10:01,400 Speaker 1: Bill took exception to that term because he is His 144 00:10:01,559 --> 00:10:06,320 Speaker 1: idea was that, well, if you work in forensic science, 145 00:10:07,920 --> 00:10:10,960 Speaker 1: you should be able to go out and make a living, 146 00:10:11,320 --> 00:10:16,360 Speaker 1: you know, for you and your family, and he was 147 00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:21,880 Speaker 1: saying it from the perspective of anybody. They would tag 148 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:27,040 Speaker 1: this an individual, anybody that would go and testify for 149 00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:31,920 Speaker 1: the defense, regardless of the you know, their level of 150 00:10:31,960 --> 00:10:35,200 Speaker 1: morality or whatever it was. They were just blanketed with 151 00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:38,239 Speaker 1: this term. And he really took exception to it that 152 00:10:38,240 --> 00:10:42,480 Speaker 1: that there were people out there that just assumed that 153 00:10:42,559 --> 00:10:45,480 Speaker 1: because you were testifying for the defense, that you had 154 00:10:45,520 --> 00:10:49,880 Speaker 1: prostituted yourself in some way, that you were paying that 155 00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:53,680 Speaker 1: the defense was paying for your testimony to validate, you know, 156 00:10:53,720 --> 00:10:56,120 Speaker 1: whatever theory it is that they had, And of course 157 00:10:56,120 --> 00:10:59,520 Speaker 1: that's not always the case, because you can take you 158 00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:04,719 Speaker 1: can take a bit of science that your task was 159 00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:08,760 Speaker 1: examining whatever the scientific evidence is, and you can look 160 00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:12,520 Speaker 1: at it and you can arrive at a different conclusion 161 00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:21,120 Speaker 1: than maybe somebody that's working working for the prosecution. And 162 00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:23,920 Speaker 1: you know, Blake is a perfect example of this in 163 00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:31,600 Speaker 1: since that he would not prostitute himself. But as years 164 00:11:31,640 --> 00:11:35,160 Speaker 1: went by, I think he recognized that there were multiple 165 00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:40,520 Speaker 1: problems in system and this kind of secuitous route that 166 00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:44,560 Speaker 1: he took to where he wound up and being, you know, 167 00:11:44,640 --> 00:11:48,760 Speaker 1: kind of in the pantheon of forensic scientists out there. 168 00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:53,280 Speaker 1: He saw how many people were incarcerated that should not 169 00:11:53,480 --> 00:11:55,319 Speaker 1: have been incarcerated. 170 00:11:54,640 --> 00:11:56,840 Speaker 2: Dave, and is so scary to media. 171 00:11:57,000 --> 00:12:01,160 Speaker 1: It's terrifying. I mean, it really really is. And how 172 00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:03,960 Speaker 1: many I think that personally, I think that you and 173 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:06,600 Speaker 1: I ought to do an entire series on bodybacks of 174 00:12:06,679 --> 00:12:11,200 Speaker 1: individuals that have been wrongfully you know, convicted, and particularly 175 00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:14,120 Speaker 1: as it applies to the victims, you know, because still 176 00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:17,920 Speaker 1: the individual that is the victim doesn't you know, they 177 00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:23,040 Speaker 1: still don't have a voice. You know, they're left and 178 00:12:23,240 --> 00:12:25,960 Speaker 1: there's no one to answer for their deaths many times. 179 00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:30,480 Speaker 2: But you know what, in the case of Edward T. Blake, Yeah, 180 00:12:30,679 --> 00:12:34,360 Speaker 2: that big case, the Gary Dotson case, when you actually 181 00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:37,839 Speaker 2: do a Google search of Edward Blake, Gary Dotson, that's 182 00:12:37,880 --> 00:12:41,800 Speaker 2: what comes up. That was like the first big case 183 00:12:42,240 --> 00:12:45,760 Speaker 2: that he was involved in where a man is sitting 184 00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:51,079 Speaker 2: in prison for a rape he didn't commit. And one 185 00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:54,800 Speaker 2: of the things that really bothers me about that case, 186 00:12:55,120 --> 00:12:58,880 Speaker 2: because I have seen it play out before, is the 187 00:12:58,920 --> 00:13:04,199 Speaker 2: girl who accused him of rape recanted her story fairly quickly. 188 00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:06,719 Speaker 2: You know, he didn't do it. I made it up. 189 00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:11,560 Speaker 2: And that wasn't enough. Now, I understand recanning and all that, 190 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:15,280 Speaker 2: but bottom line here is that Gary Dotson was in prison. 191 00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:19,400 Speaker 2: He was sentenced to twenty to fifty years for the 192 00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:23,800 Speaker 2: rape of a teenage girl, and even though the girl 193 00:13:23,840 --> 00:13:27,880 Speaker 2: had confessed to fabricating the evidence, he still was sitting 194 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:33,600 Speaker 2: in prison until they were able to get Edward Blake 195 00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:38,280 Speaker 2: involved and actually looked at the DNA evidence and the 196 00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:42,480 Speaker 2: seamen found in the girl's underwear, and it showed that 197 00:13:42,559 --> 00:13:44,840 Speaker 2: it was not Gary Dotson. 198 00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:48,400 Speaker 1: No, it actually your boyfriend. Yeah, I'm sorry, didn't mean 199 00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:50,120 Speaker 1: to step on you, but yeah, I mean, I just 200 00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:54,920 Speaker 1: it was so striking. And this man has been robbed. 201 00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:58,200 Speaker 1: You know, he's been robbed of all this time, Dave, 202 00:13:58,480 --> 00:14:02,280 Speaker 1: think about all the Christmases and Thanksgivings and you know, 203 00:14:02,520 --> 00:14:05,640 Speaker 1: or the potential for your life, not that you don't 204 00:14:05,679 --> 00:14:10,120 Speaker 1: have potential if you're incarcerated. Don't misrepresent what I'm saying here. 205 00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:14,439 Speaker 1: It's the idea of those things that you are prevented 206 00:14:14,520 --> 00:14:21,440 Speaker 1: from doing because someone, as it turns out, was either 207 00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:41,800 Speaker 1: very lazy or just downright malevolent. We have to think 208 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:49,360 Speaker 1: about what is it that really drew Edward Blake into 209 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:53,440 Speaker 1: this world. Blake was actually working in the same building 210 00:14:53,680 --> 00:14:57,640 Speaker 1: where there was a lab. It was a medical lab 211 00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:01,680 Speaker 1: that was using DNA to achnologies such as it was 212 00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:08,040 Speaker 1: back in the mid eighties to make diagnoses in specific diseases, 213 00:15:08,280 --> 00:15:12,040 Speaker 1: and a lot of this had to do with cancer 214 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:16,240 Speaker 1: treatments and these sorts of things, and what they were 215 00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:24,600 Speaker 1: focused on was the utilization of fragmented DNA, and Blake 216 00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:28,800 Speaker 1: it was related that there was a geneticist that he 217 00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:32,960 Speaker 1: would run into periodically in the hallway and they'd have 218 00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:35,040 Speaker 1: coffee and they'd just sit in the break room and 219 00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:38,320 Speaker 1: just kind of chat about the utility of different types 220 00:15:38,360 --> 00:15:42,560 Speaker 1: of DNA technology that existed at that point in time. 221 00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:49,920 Speaker 1: He discovered that they were actually using PCR polimerase chain reaction, 222 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:55,400 Speaker 1: which is where you're taking fragmented bits of DNA and 223 00:15:55,640 --> 00:16:00,400 Speaker 1: amplifying it. So you would take take these bits of 224 00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:06,320 Speaker 1: the fragmented DNA and extend it or replicate it in 225 00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:14,160 Speaker 1: order to come back and specifically identify an individual without 226 00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:18,720 Speaker 1: having a full on robust sample of DNA in the past. 227 00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:25,800 Speaker 1: Prior to that, he had to have a significant amount 228 00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:30,080 Speaker 1: of DNA sample in order to you know profile an individual. 229 00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:34,320 Speaker 1: You go back to Alec Jeffries, who did the first 230 00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:43,040 Speaker 1: work in in DNA technology as it applied to criminal cases. 231 00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:48,000 Speaker 1: He's in Great Britain, but he was using a completely 232 00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:52,880 Speaker 1: different type of methodology in order to arrive at these conclusions. 233 00:16:52,920 --> 00:16:56,000 Speaker 1: And you know what the light bulb went on with 234 00:16:56,000 --> 00:16:59,680 Speaker 1: with Blake is that a lot of these cases that 235 00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:02,680 Speaker 1: I'm across in the field, first off, it's going to 236 00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:06,360 Speaker 1: be something that's partial, It's going to be something that 237 00:17:06,720 --> 00:17:13,160 Speaker 1: is potentially degraded. You think about all of these rate 238 00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:15,880 Speaker 1: kits over the years, Dave, you know that have been 239 00:17:15,920 --> 00:17:20,439 Speaker 1: sitting on shelves and have been essentially kind of riding away, 240 00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:23,520 Speaker 1: and you know, what are you going to do with that? 241 00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:27,360 Speaker 1: Is there is there anything left that we can actually use? 242 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:31,440 Speaker 1: And you know, with PCR, he said, wow, this is 243 00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:34,719 Speaker 1: this has got real potential, real utility here because if 244 00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:38,240 Speaker 1: you can find something that goes back years and years 245 00:17:39,119 --> 00:17:43,320 Speaker 1: and suddenly that becomes a touchstone where you can utilize 246 00:17:43,359 --> 00:17:47,160 Speaker 1: all that remains in order to literally peel the peel 247 00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:50,120 Speaker 1: the pages back, go back in time and look where 248 00:17:50,119 --> 00:17:52,840 Speaker 1: we are today. You know, you think about the stuff 249 00:17:52,840 --> 00:17:54,840 Speaker 1: that's being done, you know, just with our friends at 250 00:17:54,840 --> 00:17:57,280 Speaker 1: author them and these it's a boy you talk about 251 00:17:57,280 --> 00:18:00,320 Speaker 1: brave new world, it's it's a place that we you 252 00:18:00,359 --> 00:18:03,040 Speaker 1: know that back then, at that particular time, no one 253 00:18:03,040 --> 00:18:06,080 Speaker 1: could have even had fancied this, and Blake was literally 254 00:18:06,119 --> 00:18:08,040 Speaker 1: on the cutting edge of this technology day. 255 00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:11,520 Speaker 2: You know, you talked about Steven Spielberg in your opening 256 00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:15,760 Speaker 2: and the movie is Jurassic Park. If you could explain 257 00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:18,920 Speaker 2: for me how that fits in with PCR, because I 258 00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:22,000 Speaker 2: think for most of us, if for those who have, 259 00:18:22,119 --> 00:18:24,240 Speaker 2: if you haven't seen the movie Jurassic Park, it's not 260 00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:25,919 Speaker 2: too late. Watch the first one. Now, I don't care. 261 00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:27,560 Speaker 2: I don't know anything about any of the sequels or 262 00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:30,240 Speaker 2: anything like that, but watch the first one because it 263 00:18:30,359 --> 00:18:34,600 Speaker 2: is a scientific breakdown of what goes talking about on 264 00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:36,160 Speaker 2: screen in an entertaining way. 265 00:18:37,359 --> 00:18:40,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, and so when you I'm glad you brought me 266 00:18:40,560 --> 00:18:42,880 Speaker 1: back to it because it's kind of an amazing bit, right. 267 00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:47,000 Speaker 1: And the main character in here are the scientist. I 268 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:49,679 Speaker 1: think who played that I can't remember who played that 269 00:18:49,760 --> 00:18:53,679 Speaker 1: part anyway. I know he's a famous British director, but 270 00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:57,000 Speaker 1: he actually played the role of the of the of 271 00:18:57,040 --> 00:19:00,520 Speaker 1: the scientist in this. Remember, for those of you that 272 00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:02,560 Speaker 1: have seen the movie if you haven't seen it. They 273 00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:08,480 Speaker 1: find a piece of amber, which essentially comes from the 274 00:19:08,520 --> 00:19:12,280 Speaker 1: sap of a tree. That's where you know, amber is generated, 275 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:17,359 Speaker 1: and they actually, I think they show up image of 276 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:24,120 Speaker 1: this happening where a mosquito who had actually gone onto 277 00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:29,520 Speaker 1: a dinosaur, extracted the blood from a dinosaur and then 278 00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:32,199 Speaker 1: gets caught up into the sap of a tree. It 279 00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:37,320 Speaker 1: created a you know, over a couple of million years, 280 00:19:37,359 --> 00:19:40,679 Speaker 1: it created this chunk of amber. They were able to 281 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:47,119 Speaker 1: burrow down into the amber and extract the contents contained 282 00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:53,880 Speaker 1: within the mosquito, specifically the dinosaur blood, if you will, 283 00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:58,479 Speaker 1: which of course would be fragmented, and with what they 284 00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:01,800 Speaker 1: were hinting at, there is this PCR technology where they 285 00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:04,760 Speaker 1: were able to go back in and replicate you know, 286 00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:09,879 Speaker 1: the the genomic sequencing for a dinosaur and they built 287 00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:12,480 Speaker 1: this thing out. Now that's very fanciful, all right, I mean, 288 00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:15,840 Speaker 1: this is but it's just the idea of seeing this 289 00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:20,040 Speaker 1: and how it played out, and that's that's literally you know, 290 00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:22,800 Speaker 1: how this kind of ties back to what we're talking 291 00:20:22,840 --> 00:20:25,439 Speaker 1: about that you've got something in this case, you know, 292 00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:29,720 Speaker 1: you're talking about millions of years relative to a sample, 293 00:20:31,080 --> 00:20:34,040 Speaker 1: but it goes back. It paints with a very broad 294 00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:37,400 Speaker 1: bush brush this idea of the world that we're in 295 00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:44,080 Speaker 1: right now regarding technology, where we're actually seeing some of 296 00:20:44,119 --> 00:20:45,400 Speaker 1: these things have life. 297 00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:48,800 Speaker 2: That's what I thought it was interesting is that it 298 00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:51,120 Speaker 2: happened the movie came out in ninety three. Okay, think 299 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:55,159 Speaker 2: about that, we actually had this huge hit movie. By 300 00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:59,280 Speaker 2: the way, Richard Attenborough is the yeah yeah, great voice, 301 00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:02,520 Speaker 2: by the way, Yeah, a great actor as well as director, 302 00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:06,760 Speaker 2: great escape. He directed Chaplain. Actually he was doing the 303 00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:10,719 Speaker 2: movie Chaplain with Robert Downey Jr. And actually using his 304 00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:13,600 Speaker 2: acting on Jurassic Park. It became an issue. But anyway, 305 00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:17,159 Speaker 2: Joe and I are actual movie buffs, and we go 306 00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:18,879 Speaker 2: back and forth on different things, just so y'all know, 307 00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:21,480 Speaker 2: it's like everything comes back to remember and Tommy boy 308 00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:25,399 Speaker 2: when you know. Anyway, so if you go back and 309 00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:28,760 Speaker 2: watch Jurassic Park now and watch the DNA and how 310 00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:31,639 Speaker 2: it's pretty you know, portrayed on screen, it's fascinating. But 311 00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:34,680 Speaker 2: they actually do explain a lot of those things that 312 00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:36,800 Speaker 2: we then heard two years later in the O. J. 313 00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:41,400 Speaker 2: Simpson trial. And that's what's fascinating to me is how 314 00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:46,760 Speaker 2: Hollywood was getting info that again you're talking. In eighty 315 00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:50,080 Speaker 2: eight is when Blake actually was able to go into 316 00:21:50,119 --> 00:21:56,880 Speaker 2: court and get a man released from prison who wrongly convicted, 317 00:21:57,080 --> 00:21:59,280 Speaker 2: you know, for a rape he did not commit, and 318 00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:03,320 Speaker 2: use this DNA, this type of PCR DNA or the 319 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:07,480 Speaker 2: process that developed it. Anyway, and they're showing it in 320 00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:10,440 Speaker 2: a movie five years later, in this fanciful way of 321 00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:14,320 Speaker 2: bringing back dinosaurs from the dead from extinction rather And 322 00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:19,200 Speaker 2: it's just incredible to me, Joe, how this whole science 323 00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:22,959 Speaker 2: becomes facto or fiction so many times. 324 00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:27,800 Speaker 1: It's fascinating it does, and it gives you an idea that, uh, 325 00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:30,720 Speaker 1: you know, you wonder about some of these and I 326 00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:32,639 Speaker 1: don't think that. You know, when you're a scientist and 327 00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:35,560 Speaker 1: you're working in a lab, you're necessarily a what do 328 00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:40,440 Speaker 1: they call it, a futurist. You're not sitting here thinking that, Okay, 329 00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:45,399 Speaker 1: the technology I'm working on right now, I'm looking you know, 330 00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:49,320 Speaker 1: decades and decades out in the future. They're not doing that. 331 00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:52,520 Speaker 1: They're not they don't they don't have the time to 332 00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:56,160 Speaker 1: be again using this term again, that fanciful. They're trying 333 00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:58,800 Speaker 1: to solve the problem that's in front of them, isn't 334 00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:03,000 Speaker 1: it interesting how we can developed methodologies and science like 335 00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:07,119 Speaker 1: you know, our applications will say that like doctor Blake did, 336 00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:09,520 Speaker 1: where you can take this and you use this for 337 00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:12,760 Speaker 1: a springboard into something else, you know, and this is 338 00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:15,600 Speaker 1: another interesting bit to this. You know, there have been 339 00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:20,000 Speaker 1: a couple of hearings recently in uh in Lisk, the 340 00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:23,960 Speaker 1: Long Island serial killer case, and I'll never forget you know, 341 00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:29,640 Speaker 1: the uh they were protesting, I say protesting. They were 342 00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:33,960 Speaker 1: arguing that the DNA technology and I'm being I'm paining 343 00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:37,120 Speaker 1: with real broad brush here the technology that was being 344 00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:42,719 Speaker 1: utilized in Heureman's case. His defense counsel was saying, uh 345 00:23:43,119 --> 00:23:48,000 Speaker 1: that the DNA. Uh, the DNA science that they're using 346 00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:51,680 Speaker 1: is it's like magic. And I described it one to interview. 347 00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:58,000 Speaker 1: Uh uh as you know, the defense attorneyers are acting 348 00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:01,639 Speaker 1: like they've you know, they've discovered fire, you know, for 349 00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:04,560 Speaker 1: the first time. Well that's that's not the truth, because 350 00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:08,040 Speaker 1: you know, they were saying that the technology has never 351 00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:10,240 Speaker 1: been used this way. What's been used for years and 352 00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:14,600 Speaker 1: years in medical sciences, in the medical sciences for diagnoses 353 00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:17,440 Speaker 1: and treatments and these sorts of things. It's just it's 354 00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:22,080 Speaker 1: now being applied in in you know, crime science at 355 00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:24,720 Speaker 1: this point in time, in forensic science, and so yeah, 356 00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:28,720 Speaker 1: it has utility all the way. You know, people that 357 00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:31,399 Speaker 1: develop the stuff, they don't sit there and think, well, 358 00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:35,719 Speaker 1: gee whiz, maybe someday, you know, uh, there'll be a 359 00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:39,320 Speaker 1: movie you know that's based upon this, or you know 360 00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:42,320 Speaker 1: it's it's the Jetsons or something like that. They don't 361 00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:44,879 Speaker 1: think that way. They're thinking about what can I do 362 00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:48,680 Speaker 1: in order to solve the problem. And of course when 363 00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:57,520 Speaker 1: you look at doctor Blake, that's what he was. He 364 00:24:57,600 --> 00:25:02,840 Speaker 1: was a problem solver, particularly regarding problems that seemed so 365 00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:09,399 Speaker 1: complex to many, they seemed unanswerable, but for him, he 366 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:13,719 Speaker 1: literally has taken the keys to the jail and unlocked 367 00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:18,639 Speaker 1: those cell doors, and many have gone free because of 368 00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:35,200 Speaker 1: this technology. I had a friend of mine many years 369 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:40,399 Speaker 1: ago that had worked in Morgues, you know, up in 370 00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:45,840 Speaker 1: the Northeast, had been a pathology assistant or actually a deaner, 371 00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:52,480 Speaker 1: an autopsy assistant, and he had really gutted it out 372 00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:56,159 Speaker 1: all those years and was non degreed. He didn't have 373 00:25:56,200 --> 00:26:00,840 Speaker 1: a degree. Eventually went on to get one, but he 374 00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:04,440 Speaker 1: was saying, you know, well, people you know that are 375 00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:09,280 Speaker 1: successful they get degreed or credentialed, and then they pull 376 00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:12,119 Speaker 1: the ladder up behind them and they don't create a 377 00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:17,520 Speaker 1: path for everybody else, and that that academic status becomes 378 00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:20,840 Speaker 1: a status that everybody should adhere to. And there's many 379 00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:27,080 Speaker 1: different ways to become validated in forensic science. Some of 380 00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:29,199 Speaker 1: it does come through academia, and a lot of it 381 00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:33,560 Speaker 1: comes through trial and error and spending long, long hours 382 00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:36,119 Speaker 1: either in a Morgan laboratory or at the field, you know, 383 00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:40,240 Speaker 1: working cases. Some of the most brilliant crime scene investigators 384 00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:43,680 Speaker 1: that actually go in the field that I've worked had 385 00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:46,240 Speaker 1: nothing more than a high school high school degree and 386 00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:49,280 Speaker 1: they've picked up on the job training. But you know, 387 00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:52,919 Speaker 1: Blake is a very interesting character because back in the 388 00:26:53,040 --> 00:27:01,280 Speaker 1: sixties he had gone to Berkeley, University of California, Berkeley. 389 00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:05,960 Speaker 2: He was at UC Berkeley Joe in nineteen sixty eight. Yeah, 390 00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:09,280 Speaker 2: all the protesting that was being done at Berkeley in 391 00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:10,800 Speaker 2: the late sixties. 392 00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:12,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't think. I don't think Blake was really 393 00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:16,040 Speaker 1: probably deeply involved in that because he showed up at Berkeley, 394 00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:19,760 Speaker 1: which listened for all of that stuff that went on there, 395 00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:22,280 Speaker 1: and I think to a certain degree still continues it 396 00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:27,000 Speaker 1: is one of the most rigorous academic environments you can 397 00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:31,440 Speaker 1: be in. You know, he started out as a physics major. Wow, 398 00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:36,360 Speaker 1: and it didn't hold his attention, and so he literally 399 00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:39,240 Speaker 1: switched to forensic science. 400 00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:42,040 Speaker 2: How smart are you to be bored by physics? 401 00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:45,520 Speaker 1: Well, I don't know. I used to have a buddy 402 00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:47,879 Speaker 1: of mine that I would eat lunch with at my 403 00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:53,320 Speaker 1: previous university, and he was this guy was country's butter. 404 00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:57,440 Speaker 1: And this guy had a doctorate in astrophysics. Gone to Yeah, 405 00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:02,280 Speaker 1: you gone to Clemson, and I would I would go 406 00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:04,639 Speaker 1: and eat lunch with him, and you know, he sounded 407 00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:06,480 Speaker 1: like he had straw hanging out of his team, you 408 00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:09,520 Speaker 1: know when he would speak. But then you get him 409 00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:13,920 Speaker 1: on a role and it was always humbling when I 410 00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:16,640 Speaker 1: would eat with him, because I would realize how stupid 411 00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:21,080 Speaker 1: I really am. And he's such a general soul. Yeah, 412 00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:24,000 Speaker 1: he was brilliant, you know, off the charts. But Blake, 413 00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:32,680 Speaker 1: for his part, changed over as an undergraduate to forensics 414 00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:37,680 Speaker 1: and wound up, you know, starting a career I think 415 00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:42,520 Speaker 1: primarily probably working in labs and then becoming a consultant. 416 00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:47,880 Speaker 1: Went back and of all things, got a doctorate in criminology, 417 00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:52,040 Speaker 1: not in criminalistics, but criminology, which is the study of 418 00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:57,400 Speaker 1: the criminal mind and the behaviors of criminals. And I 419 00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:00,160 Speaker 1: think he got that, Like in nineteen seventy six, you've 420 00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:04,040 Speaker 1: got a guy that's that has a doctorate, but he 421 00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:09,040 Speaker 1: is not the doctorate is not in forensic science. So 422 00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:13,360 Speaker 1: he's kind of this multifaceted guy. And I think that 423 00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:20,320 Speaker 1: was probably shortly thereafter he founded his consultancy, which was 424 00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:27,880 Speaker 1: located in the Bay Area called Forensic Science Associates. I 425 00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:32,640 Speaker 1: I think when you begin to marry up what he 426 00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:35,800 Speaker 1: was seeing in the lab and then probably what was 427 00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:41,600 Speaker 1: what he was witnessing in in the culture at the 428 00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:44,120 Speaker 1: same time, because you know, the criminology is gonna have 429 00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:46,920 Speaker 1: more of a cultural view, you know, as as opposed 430 00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:49,880 Speaker 1: to you know, that kind of hard line scientific black 431 00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:53,480 Speaker 1: and white. It's an interesting combination when you think about it. 432 00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:55,280 Speaker 1: I think a lot of people would think that it's uh, 433 00:29:56,760 --> 00:29:58,960 Speaker 1: that it's probably oil and water on one level. But 434 00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:02,280 Speaker 1: you know, for him, he's kind of a renaissance guy 435 00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:04,960 Speaker 1: and that you know, you move forward, and that was 436 00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:08,920 Speaker 1: in seventy six. He's working cases or consulting on cases 437 00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:16,000 Speaker 1: as a forensic scientist primarily I would imagine in erology, 438 00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:19,080 Speaker 1: which you know, was how we used to type blood, 439 00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:25,760 Speaker 1: where we're trying to understand, you know, what blood type 440 00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:28,240 Speaker 1: an individual may have left behind. But that is about 441 00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:31,880 Speaker 1: as far as you could take it. But you know, 442 00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:37,680 Speaker 1: as time went by, Dave, he winds up becoming involved 443 00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:41,520 Speaker 1: in the O. J. Simpson case, of all things. And 444 00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:44,240 Speaker 1: I think that's that's kind of an amazing point you 445 00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:50,240 Speaker 1: were discussing when this would me off air. He's involved 446 00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:54,120 Speaker 1: in the case, but yet Dave, he's not involved in 447 00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:57,160 Speaker 1: the case. And I think that that presents a real interesting, 448 00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:00,960 Speaker 1: interesting bit about Blake's life, doesn't it. 449 00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:04,360 Speaker 2: I thought it was incredible because DNA became such a 450 00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:09,240 Speaker 2: big issue in that trial, and when they were calling 451 00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:12,600 Speaker 2: on Blake to testify, he was on the witness list 452 00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:17,400 Speaker 2: to testify about specifically the crime lab in Oakland that 453 00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:20,600 Speaker 2: was used by the Los Angeles Police Department. It's a 454 00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:25,720 Speaker 2: crime lab run by the Justice Department. And when Blake 455 00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:31,280 Speaker 2: was asked to testify, he basically said, I'm not going 456 00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:33,320 Speaker 2: to be able to give you what you want. You know, 457 00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:36,560 Speaker 2: he's not a hired hand. And that's the part about this. 458 00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:40,160 Speaker 2: You know, oftentimes we hear people joking about experts can 459 00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:42,240 Speaker 2: be hired. You know, I can get an expert to 460 00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:44,280 Speaker 2: say I'm crazy. You can get an expert to say 461 00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:48,440 Speaker 2: I'm saying And when it comes to this, he would not. 462 00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:54,120 Speaker 1: I've got an interesting little side story here about some 463 00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:56,040 Speaker 1: of the stuff. And this is kind of an example 464 00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:59,720 Speaker 1: some stuff that was going on out in LA and 465 00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:04,360 Speaker 1: it probably approximates about the time of OJ Simpson. This 466 00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:10,880 Speaker 1: gives you an idea about the condition of laboratory facilities 467 00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:15,440 Speaker 1: when we have a death. Did you know that there's 468 00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:20,240 Speaker 1: a a special forensics clothes dryer. Did you know that, Dave, 469 00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:24,200 Speaker 1: no idea. And it's not a tumble dryer. There is 470 00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:28,960 Speaker 1: actually a device. It's like a big glass box, okay 471 00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:34,640 Speaker 1: that when you get a bit of clothing that's super 472 00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:39,920 Speaker 1: saturated with blood, you put it on a hangar and 473 00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:42,920 Speaker 1: you hang it inside the dryer, okay, and you shut 474 00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:47,000 Speaker 1: the door and it literally dries the blood in place. 475 00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:53,320 Speaker 1: And it's rather complex, but it is a location where 476 00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:57,640 Speaker 1: these items are secured. They're free from cross contamination, one 477 00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:01,320 Speaker 1: of the problems they ran into in l A. And 478 00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:04,280 Speaker 1: I guess they saw this as a cost cutting measure, Dave. 479 00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:07,720 Speaker 1: They were using Uh, you know, what is this? What 480 00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:11,360 Speaker 1: do they say in uh in mommy dear's no wire hangers. 481 00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:18,120 Speaker 1: They were using wire hangers. They were using wire hangers 482 00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:22,760 Speaker 1: to hang clothes on. And get this. After they would 483 00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:26,120 Speaker 1: use them on one case, they would take them and 484 00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:31,600 Speaker 1: use them on another case. So you're talking about yeah, 485 00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:35,040 Speaker 1: and they justified by saying that. I think, and I 486 00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:37,160 Speaker 1: might be getting my story mixed up here, but I 487 00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:40,000 Speaker 1: remember this. I had a conversation with somebody at one 488 00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:44,000 Speaker 1: point in time about this that was from LA. They 489 00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:48,800 Speaker 1: would put these wire coat hangers into a bucket that 490 00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:51,440 Speaker 1: had bleach inside of it, had bleach in it, and 491 00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:54,320 Speaker 1: they would let them sit and I guess they'd rinse 492 00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:57,600 Speaker 1: them off to save you know, their safe saving money, 493 00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:01,000 Speaker 1: you know, by using the same on our coat hangers. 494 00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:04,239 Speaker 1: And so that that gives you an idea. You know, 495 00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:08,359 Speaker 1: this is an this is an environment where you have 496 00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:12,319 Speaker 1: to keep it so pristine, and it's a it's a 497 00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:16,560 Speaker 1: difficult environment to be pristine in because it's so riddled 498 00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:19,279 Speaker 1: with filth and you know, you come up all the 499 00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:21,800 Speaker 1: stuff that you drag in from the streets. These cases 500 00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:24,440 Speaker 1: are not clean cases, and so you have to take 501 00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:27,080 Speaker 1: an extra effort to be that to do this, and 502 00:34:27,200 --> 00:34:30,360 Speaker 1: a lot of this about the coat hanger thing that 503 00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:33,839 Speaker 1: was actually discovered by defense attorneys, and of course immediately 504 00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:37,680 Speaker 1: they wanted to know how many cases in the past had, 505 00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:41,920 Speaker 1: you know, where they'd use these contaminated, contaminated clothes hangers 506 00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:44,800 Speaker 1: to hang these things up with. He knew this, Blake 507 00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:47,400 Speaker 1: knew this. He knew and that's just one small example. 508 00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:49,759 Speaker 1: And that's something that for all of my friends that 509 00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:53,160 Speaker 1: work in labs. A big part of working in a 510 00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:58,400 Speaker 1: lab is is quality assurance. You have a quality a 511 00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:05,799 Speaker 1: specific person that is designated as your QA person that's 512 00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:08,920 Speaker 1: going to go through and they're not just checking the 513 00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:12,520 Speaker 1: methodologies which they have to like what testing methodologies are 514 00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:16,239 Speaker 1: you using? Are they accepted by the courts? Okay, but 515 00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:20,360 Speaker 1: they're also going around seeing if the stations are clean, 516 00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:24,320 Speaker 1: you know, if they're meeting the standard that's set forth 517 00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:29,480 Speaker 1: by their certifying organization. And I guess you fall into 518 00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:32,440 Speaker 1: the trap of any other kind of governmental organization, you 519 00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:35,680 Speaker 1: know that's that's doing things. You shortcut things, and you know, 520 00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:39,080 Speaker 1: you make excuses and all this. He knew this, He 521 00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:44,840 Speaker 1: had the inside track on this, and you compared I 522 00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:48,160 Speaker 1: remember you used the example of Van Adder, you know, 523 00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:53,120 Speaker 1: with with Oj, and for you know, for our friends 524 00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:56,560 Speaker 1: refresh our memory about van at or with this blood. 525 00:35:57,160 --> 00:35:59,680 Speaker 2: It's something we were talking about before we began taping 526 00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:04,440 Speaker 2: today because it in the case, in the OJ Simpson case, 527 00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:07,200 Speaker 2: the reason some of us that followed I've watched that 528 00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:10,400 Speaker 2: trial almost every day, and the reason so many of 529 00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:16,600 Speaker 2: us had issues with the blood wasn't because of the 530 00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:20,240 Speaker 2: diffen It wasn't because of the experts that testified about 531 00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:23,840 Speaker 2: the DNA. It was the way the blood was handled 532 00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:26,719 Speaker 2: from the time it was drawn. If you remember, during 533 00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:29,680 Speaker 2: the trial, there was an extremely long period of time 534 00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:32,600 Speaker 2: where they had the guy on the stand who draws 535 00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:37,719 Speaker 2: blood from suspects at the county jail, and he draws 536 00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:40,520 Speaker 2: a certain amount every time. And in the case of 537 00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:44,520 Speaker 2: OJ Simpson, whereas he'd always sit loud to choose the number, say, 538 00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:47,080 Speaker 2: every time he draws between you know, right around fifty, 539 00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:49,120 Speaker 2: between forty nine to fifty one, right there at fifty, 540 00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:51,799 Speaker 2: that's what he normally draws. But in OJ's case, for 541 00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:54,960 Speaker 2: some reason, he only drew thirty five. It was substantially 542 00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:58,920 Speaker 2: less than normal. And the guy that drewid said I 543 00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:03,240 Speaker 2: always draw the same amount. You know, this is wrong. 544 00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:05,840 Speaker 2: There shouldn't have been thirty five, there should have been fifty. 545 00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:08,759 Speaker 2: It became a big deal. But because there was no 546 00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:12,240 Speaker 2: picture taken, no, you know, they were able to argue. 547 00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:15,480 Speaker 2: The defense was that something was done with that blood, 548 00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:17,320 Speaker 2: that blow was used. And the thing is, we find 549 00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:20,600 Speaker 2: out that one of the detectives been at Her, had 550 00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:24,800 Speaker 2: that blood tube and had it along with some shoes 551 00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:28,480 Speaker 2: and had it in his vehicle when he went to 552 00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:31,920 Speaker 2: the crime scene at Bundy and the crime scene at Rockingham, 553 00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:35,720 Speaker 2: so and in all the places where this blood was found. 554 00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:40,879 Speaker 2: He bent at Her had taken it there after, after 555 00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:45,560 Speaker 2: the crime, after it was and that became a real problem, Joe. 556 00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:48,400 Speaker 2: And again that's before you even look at all the 557 00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:51,680 Speaker 2: DNA issues. Before you look at that, you got to 558 00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:56,239 Speaker 2: you have a problem with crossing it with contamination. And 559 00:37:56,840 --> 00:37:59,000 Speaker 2: for a lot of just people who don't I'm not 560 00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:02,120 Speaker 2: a scientist been around crime stuff for a long time, Joe, 561 00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:07,640 Speaker 2: but looking at that one example, it takes every other 562 00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:10,680 Speaker 2: piece of evidence they've got related to that blood and 563 00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:11,800 Speaker 2: throws it into question. 564 00:38:12,239 --> 00:38:15,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, it taints it. It taints it significantly, It really does. 565 00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:20,200 Speaker 1: And you know, you're you're you're blowing apart the rest 566 00:38:20,239 --> 00:38:26,240 Speaker 1: of anything else that was valid. Uh maybe with valid 567 00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:28,560 Speaker 1: science that you're you know, you're working hard. Think about 568 00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:31,320 Speaker 1: was it Fong? Dennis Fong? I think was yeah, the 569 00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:34,880 Speaker 1: kriminalist that was out seen. Yeah, I'll never forget the 570 00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:37,719 Speaker 1: image of him walking around in a taivek suit and 571 00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:40,360 Speaker 1: you still got detectives walking around out there in street 572 00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:45,239 Speaker 1: shoes with It was just it was such, it was 573 00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:47,160 Speaker 1: such buffoonery. 574 00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:51,720 Speaker 2: And grabbing a blanket from inside the house to govern Nicole. 575 00:38:52,239 --> 00:38:55,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and it just it, you know, the process 576 00:38:55,719 --> 00:38:59,480 Speaker 1: of how everything worked. And look, I'm assuming that things 577 00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:05,960 Speaker 1: to date have you know, probably gotten better, we hope. Uh. 578 00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:09,480 Speaker 1: And but I do know this, I do know that, uh, 579 00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:13,680 Speaker 1: that how that case was handled, those cases, it had 580 00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:18,000 Speaker 1: a direct impact on my profession and medical legal in 581 00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:20,000 Speaker 1: the medical legal world. As a matter of fact, it 582 00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:26,320 Speaker 1: was one of the elements to us, you know, beginning 583 00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:28,960 Speaker 1: to look at how can we standardize the practice for 584 00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:31,719 Speaker 1: people in my field nationwide? And it's from that that, 585 00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:34,760 Speaker 1: you know, American Border Medical Legal Death Investigators was formed, 586 00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:38,759 Speaker 1: really and yeah, yeah, the genesis of that part of 587 00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:41,880 Speaker 1: it was relative to the O j. Simpson case and 588 00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:45,759 Speaker 1: how it was handled. Wow. And so concurrently you look 589 00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:49,680 Speaker 1: at Blake and the world of and I think, personally 590 00:39:50,160 --> 00:39:53,680 Speaker 1: my field we've come along ways. I think in Blake's 591 00:39:53,680 --> 00:40:01,160 Speaker 1: field certainly has because not only do you have the 592 00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:04,560 Speaker 1: the clarification of duties, but you also have the standards 593 00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:07,480 Speaker 1: that are set forth. And this guy, you know, this 594 00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:10,719 Speaker 1: guy is was a litmus test for them early on 595 00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:13,719 Speaker 1: and continue to be. He's the person that you'd go 596 00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:15,719 Speaker 1: back and you'd look at, how are you going to 597 00:40:15,719 --> 00:40:19,600 Speaker 1: process scenes with very fragile evidence? You've got rape kits? 598 00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:23,520 Speaker 1: Is there anything that we can that we can still salvage? 599 00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:27,440 Speaker 1: I have a rape kit even with degraded DNA in 600 00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:31,200 Speaker 1: old cases off of clothing that's packed away somewhere. Is 601 00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:33,680 Speaker 1: there any kind of DNA we can source off of that? 602 00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:37,160 Speaker 1: How we handle things and then how we examine things, 603 00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:41,280 Speaker 1: what methodologies are being used. And here's the thing his legacy, 604 00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:46,680 Speaker 1: I think with Blake is because the benchmarks that Blake 605 00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:53,279 Speaker 1: established early on in his practice from a scientific perspective, 606 00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:57,480 Speaker 1: that are going to move us forward in the future 607 00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:01,200 Speaker 1: relative to this technology. We don't know how many other 608 00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:04,480 Speaker 1: people there are out there that will be identified. How 609 00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:10,640 Speaker 1: many perpetrators will be will be put in jail, how 610 00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:14,560 Speaker 1: many people will be set free, We don't know, but 611 00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:18,840 Speaker 1: I do know that his impact on the practice of 612 00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:26,040 Speaker 1: DNA science will ring for many years to come. But 613 00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:33,480 Speaker 1: most importantly, beyond the science, Blake actually took a stand 614 00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:38,200 Speaker 1: where many people may have sat back and maybe have 615 00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:41,319 Speaker 1: cashed the check, if you will, He decided not to 616 00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:44,320 Speaker 1: do that. He decided to be a man of integrity. 617 00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:49,000 Speaker 1: And of course, at the end of the day, if 618 00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:56,160 Speaker 1: you're in forensics, that is your currency. Can you be believed? 619 00:41:56,840 --> 00:42:02,480 Speaker 1: Can you be trusted? We count doctor Blake as one 620 00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:07,600 Speaker 1: of those that could be rest in peace. I'm Joseph 621 00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:11,240 Speaker 1: Scott Morgan and this is Bodybags