1 00:00:00,800 --> 00:00:10,760 Speaker 1: Family Secrets is a production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:11,880 --> 00:00:15,040 Speaker 2: I'm Danny Shapiro and this is a bonus episode of 3 00:00:15,080 --> 00:00:18,119 Speaker 2: family Secrets, the secrets that are kept from us, the 4 00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:20,720 Speaker 2: secrets we keep from others, and the secrets we keep 5 00:00:20,800 --> 00:00:25,919 Speaker 2: from ourselves. Today, my guest is Gretchen Ruben, best selling author, 6 00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:31,680 Speaker 2: creator of the podcast Happier and Brilliant Student of Human Nature. 7 00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:42,599 Speaker 2: Let's dive right in. So, Gretchen, even though this is 8 00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:45,760 Speaker 2: a bonus episode, I'm still going to begin with the 9 00:00:45,840 --> 00:00:48,280 Speaker 2: question that I love to begin my episodes of Family 10 00:00:48,280 --> 00:00:51,879 Speaker 2: Secrets with, which is tell me about the landscape of 11 00:00:51,920 --> 00:00:56,040 Speaker 2: your childhood. Because you've spent so much of your life 12 00:00:56,760 --> 00:01:03,120 Speaker 2: making human nature and happiness in particular your central subject, 13 00:01:03,360 --> 00:01:07,000 Speaker 2: I would say, and I'm curious about your childhood and 14 00:01:07,040 --> 00:01:09,240 Speaker 2: whether the seeds for that were in there. 15 00:01:10,959 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 3: Well, probably the seeds of that were in that. I 16 00:01:12,880 --> 00:01:14,840 Speaker 3: was a huge reader as a child, and like my 17 00:01:14,880 --> 00:01:17,920 Speaker 3: happiest memories were going to our local library and checking 18 00:01:17,959 --> 00:01:21,440 Speaker 3: out the maximum number of books, and on the rare 19 00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:23,920 Speaker 3: occasions when we were going on our day long car 20 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:26,640 Speaker 3: trip to visit our grandparents, we actually got to buy 21 00:01:26,680 --> 00:01:29,720 Speaker 3: books for the trip, and that was always a highlight. 22 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:32,000 Speaker 3: But the landscape of my child is I grew up 23 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:34,880 Speaker 3: in Kansas City, Missouri, with you know, a mom and 24 00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:38,280 Speaker 3: a dad and a little sister and a dog, and 25 00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:41,520 Speaker 3: visiting my grandparents in North Nebraska every summer. So I 26 00:01:41,560 --> 00:01:46,959 Speaker 3: had a very kind of comically like standardized child that 27 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:48,680 Speaker 3: of course you didn't feel like that to me at all. 28 00:01:49,160 --> 00:01:54,120 Speaker 3: Felt extremely rich and strange and particular. But from the outside, 29 00:01:54,160 --> 00:01:56,360 Speaker 3: that's what it looked like, and. 30 00:01:56,320 --> 00:01:58,640 Speaker 2: I would think, looking back, that's what that's what it 31 00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:00,800 Speaker 2: looks like too, right, mm hmmm. 32 00:02:01,120 --> 00:02:02,880 Speaker 3: Well, one of the things that's interesting looking back is 33 00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:05,320 Speaker 3: my sister, who's the television writer. Now, like we both 34 00:02:05,360 --> 00:02:08,040 Speaker 3: are professional writers, and growing up, we had no idea 35 00:02:08,240 --> 00:02:10,880 Speaker 3: that that was our fate. We weren't talking about it 36 00:02:11,040 --> 00:02:15,359 Speaker 3: or seemingly working toward it like our whole family read 37 00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:18,960 Speaker 3: a lot. But looking back on it, there was really 38 00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:21,600 Speaker 3: no sign of that, which is kind of odd to us, 39 00:02:21,760 --> 00:02:25,240 Speaker 3: all of us now thinking back, So what do. 40 00:02:25,200 --> 00:02:28,560 Speaker 2: You think sort of led you in the direction of 41 00:02:29,320 --> 00:02:34,320 Speaker 2: exploring particularly happiness, because I'm thinking that, you know, it's 42 00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:38,399 Speaker 2: so interesting. I mean, you've got this fantastic podcast Happier 43 00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:41,720 Speaker 2: that you do with your sister Elizabeth, and you know, 44 00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:45,880 Speaker 2: you have your massively best selling Happiness Project, and you 45 00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:49,480 Speaker 2: have your wonderful life in the Five Senses, which I 46 00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:52,240 Speaker 2: would argue is also about happiness in a way. What 47 00:02:52,440 --> 00:02:55,560 Speaker 2: do you think either pushed you or led you in 48 00:02:55,600 --> 00:02:59,760 Speaker 2: the direction of wanting to explore what makes us happy? 49 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:02,880 Speaker 3: Well, as you said at the beginning, my true subject 50 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:06,280 Speaker 3: is human nature. Yeah, I'm just interested in who are we? 51 00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:08,880 Speaker 3: How do we understand ourselves, which, as you know, is 52 00:03:08,919 --> 00:03:11,240 Speaker 3: extremely difficult to do, how do we change if we 53 00:03:11,320 --> 00:03:15,320 Speaker 3: want to change? And happiness is one aspect of that. 54 00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:20,680 Speaker 3: It's probably the most hopeful and exciting aspect of that question. 55 00:03:20,720 --> 00:03:22,880 Speaker 3: But I'm really interested in all of it. Before I 56 00:03:22,880 --> 00:03:25,679 Speaker 3: wrote The Happiest Project, like, I wrote a big biography 57 00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:28,360 Speaker 3: of Winston Churchill, and that's really all about just using 58 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:30,560 Speaker 3: one person to explore human nature. He has such a 59 00:03:30,600 --> 00:03:36,400 Speaker 3: tremendous life, it's easier to see him. He's so magnified, 60 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:39,440 Speaker 3: so he makes a good study. My first book was 61 00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:42,400 Speaker 3: called Power, Money, Fame, Sex, A User's Guy. That was 62 00:03:42,440 --> 00:03:45,480 Speaker 3: a very that was assive, but also a study of 63 00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:50,200 Speaker 3: human nathers. Because happiness is relationships, it's the body, it's 64 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:54,080 Speaker 3: purpose it's work, it's you know, it's every it's so 65 00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:55,400 Speaker 3: many things come into it. 66 00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:59,280 Speaker 2: And it's also I think a kind of mythical holy 67 00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:04,080 Speaker 2: grail in terms of, you know, what is happiness even 68 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:06,600 Speaker 2: what does it mean? You know, there's so many there's 69 00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:11,440 Speaker 2: so many colors to it. You know, there's contentment, there's coziness, 70 00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:15,160 Speaker 2: there's things that could kind of masquerade it as happiness 71 00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:17,080 Speaker 2: but really are more like, you know, kind of mania, 72 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:20,440 Speaker 2: you know, And there's kind of the way in which 73 00:04:20,520 --> 00:04:24,279 Speaker 2: and I think in terms of the Family Secrets podcast, 74 00:04:24,440 --> 00:04:27,720 Speaker 2: I think a lot of my guests and a lot 75 00:04:27,720 --> 00:04:30,680 Speaker 2: of the people who really relate to some of the 76 00:04:30,680 --> 00:04:34,880 Speaker 2: stories that we tell feel like they need to kind 77 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:37,800 Speaker 2: of put a good face on things as opposed to 78 00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:42,560 Speaker 2: what the true nature of happiness or joy is, which 79 00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:45,160 Speaker 2: is kind of a very internal and private experience. 80 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:47,440 Speaker 3: I started my career in law, where you know, you 81 00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:50,600 Speaker 3: found an entire semester arguing about the definition of contract, 82 00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:54,480 Speaker 3: and happiness is even more elusive to define, has something 83 00:04:54,520 --> 00:04:58,320 Speaker 3: like fifteen or seventeen academic definitions, and you can get 84 00:04:58,440 --> 00:05:00,560 Speaker 3: very caught up and is what I'm feeling tentman or 85 00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:03,800 Speaker 3: joy or peace? But I think there's a kind of 86 00:05:04,040 --> 00:05:08,359 Speaker 3: happiness that comes from clarity and from like unders like 87 00:05:08,680 --> 00:05:12,160 Speaker 3: having the pieces fall into place, and when, as someone 88 00:05:12,160 --> 00:05:13,960 Speaker 3: who listens to here, I don't miss an episode of 89 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:16,120 Speaker 3: your podcast, For many people, there is that moment, and 90 00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:19,080 Speaker 3: you certainly write about this in Inheritance, where the pieces 91 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:21,920 Speaker 3: fit together and you are like, Okay, now I have 92 00:05:22,040 --> 00:05:25,919 Speaker 3: a much clearer view of things that have fogged my 93 00:05:26,080 --> 00:05:30,000 Speaker 3: vision and confused me. And and so sometimes even if 94 00:05:30,040 --> 00:05:33,040 Speaker 3: it's a very what you might say, unhappy secret, there 95 00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:38,160 Speaker 3: is a kind of serenity that comes from understanding and so, 96 00:05:38,880 --> 00:05:40,480 Speaker 3: and that's why I think it's a mistake to get 97 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:43,800 Speaker 3: really caught up and like what is happiness exactly, because well, 98 00:05:43,839 --> 00:05:46,400 Speaker 3: one of my secrets of adulthood is happiness doesn't always 99 00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:49,560 Speaker 3: make us feel happy. And so something can make you 100 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:52,880 Speaker 3: happier even though it doesn't really make you feel happy. 101 00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:54,799 Speaker 3: And I think a lot of times in family secrets, 102 00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:57,400 Speaker 3: it's sort of in that zone of human experience. 103 00:05:57,640 --> 00:06:02,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, And I through your book, which is told 104 00:06:02,960 --> 00:06:07,160 Speaker 2: in for the most part in aphorisms, and was really 105 00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:11,159 Speaker 2: looking in particular for the aphorisms that I feel most 106 00:06:11,839 --> 00:06:15,200 Speaker 2: connect to the sort of family secret stories that we tell. 107 00:06:15,279 --> 00:06:17,200 Speaker 3: I take down some too, So it'll be interesting if 108 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:18,120 Speaker 3: we picked out the same time. 109 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:21,720 Speaker 2: Oh will it be well? So before we even do that, 110 00:06:21,880 --> 00:06:23,719 Speaker 2: I mean, I want to say first of all that 111 00:06:23,920 --> 00:06:27,600 Speaker 2: your book Secrets of Adulthood, and the subtitle is simple 112 00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:31,520 Speaker 2: Truths for our Complex lives. And I love both that 113 00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:35,360 Speaker 2: title and the subtitle because the idea of I mean 114 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:39,119 Speaker 2: aphorisms as you define them. A couple of different times 115 00:06:39,160 --> 00:06:42,760 Speaker 2: in the book, brief and sharp aphorisms distill big ideas 116 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:46,559 Speaker 2: into few words. By saying little, they managed to suggest more. 117 00:06:46,760 --> 00:06:50,360 Speaker 2: The clarity of their language promotes the clarity of our sinking. 118 00:06:50,920 --> 00:06:53,880 Speaker 2: And then a little bit later you write, the discipline 119 00:06:53,960 --> 00:06:57,400 Speaker 2: of the aphorism forces precision of sinking. So I mean, 120 00:06:57,400 --> 00:06:59,320 Speaker 2: could you just like talk a little bit. You've spent 121 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:02,400 Speaker 2: you know, most of your life, like from the time 122 00:07:02,440 --> 00:07:05,599 Speaker 2: that you were a kid, I think, writing down, you know, 123 00:07:05,720 --> 00:07:10,080 Speaker 2: aphorisms of others and writing down aphorisms of your own, 124 00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:13,680 Speaker 2: and it seems like a great source of like mental 125 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:14,800 Speaker 2: play and pleasure for you. 126 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:18,120 Speaker 3: Absolutely. Now I have a giant trove of my favorite 127 00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:21,440 Speaker 3: of other people's aphorisms and they and then I started 128 00:07:21,440 --> 00:07:23,880 Speaker 3: writing my own and it is It is an interesting 129 00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:25,800 Speaker 3: thing because it's like that old joke, you know, I'm 130 00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:27,760 Speaker 3: sorry I wrote I wrote yourself a long letter. I 131 00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:31,600 Speaker 3: didn't have time to write a short one that trying 132 00:07:31,640 --> 00:07:34,400 Speaker 3: to really crystallize a thought into just a few words, 133 00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:36,880 Speaker 3: Like you really have to understand what you're thinking and 134 00:07:36,960 --> 00:07:39,080 Speaker 3: let you even agree with your own thoughts. So that's 135 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:41,720 Speaker 3: why I think it's really a very creative and intellectually 136 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:45,360 Speaker 3: gratifying thing to do as a writer or as a thinker. 137 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:46,680 Speaker 3: I think a lot of a lot of people have 138 00:07:46,760 --> 00:07:49,240 Speaker 3: these aphorisms that they've created through their own time and 139 00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:55,360 Speaker 3: experience and yeah, and studying other people's they do. They 140 00:07:55,440 --> 00:07:58,200 Speaker 3: run through my mind more because since they're they're short, 141 00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:01,160 Speaker 3: they sort of sticking your mind more. Like one of 142 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:05,120 Speaker 3: my favorite aforicts is Mariva and Idna Eeschenbach and whom 143 00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:08,280 Speaker 3: everyone has forgotten, but she's my favorite efforist. And like 144 00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:11,200 Speaker 3: she has one that I think of often. You can 145 00:08:11,240 --> 00:08:13,440 Speaker 3: fall so fast you think you're flying. 146 00:08:14,040 --> 00:08:16,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, like once you internalize that you can't untie it, 147 00:08:16,800 --> 00:08:17,560 Speaker 2: you forget it. 148 00:08:17,920 --> 00:08:22,640 Speaker 3: Right, and it expresses something that you might have. My favorite, 149 00:08:22,840 --> 00:08:24,920 Speaker 3: my favorite kind of aphorism is the one where you 150 00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:28,120 Speaker 3: read it and you think I've thought that myself. I 151 00:08:28,200 --> 00:08:30,760 Speaker 3: never quite put it into words, but I've had that 152 00:08:30,840 --> 00:08:34,760 Speaker 3: thought myself. And so I was, you know, trying to 153 00:08:34,800 --> 00:08:38,440 Speaker 3: write those myself, as you know, just kind of as 154 00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:42,640 Speaker 3: well as gathering them from other people, because I do 155 00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:45,839 Speaker 3: feel like there's something you can say in short that's 156 00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:47,880 Speaker 3: better done than evil when you do it long. 157 00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:51,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, And it was so interesting to me that in 158 00:08:51,800 --> 00:08:55,240 Speaker 2: some of the you know, of what you describe as 159 00:08:55,240 --> 00:08:57,840 Speaker 2: being on your on your crowded bookshelves, you know, with 160 00:08:57,840 --> 00:09:01,600 Speaker 2: these masterpieces of philosophy and literature. I've been actually listening 161 00:09:01,679 --> 00:09:05,600 Speaker 2: every day for the last few months to Latsa's dow 162 00:09:05,640 --> 00:09:09,400 Speaker 2: Da ching just one reading a day, and it's just 163 00:09:09,760 --> 00:09:14,440 Speaker 2: kind of amazing how clarifying and enlivening that isn't how 164 00:09:14,480 --> 00:09:18,360 Speaker 2: much it sort of stays with you because of its simplicity. 165 00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:21,440 Speaker 3: Well, and that's interesting that you do like just one 166 00:09:21,480 --> 00:09:23,640 Speaker 3: a day, because there is something when when you just 167 00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:25,680 Speaker 3: have one, you really sit with it and you really, 168 00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:28,600 Speaker 3: you really sink into it. I'm doing this thing called 169 00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:31,440 Speaker 3: a slow read a Worn Piece, where Simon Hazel does 170 00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:34,160 Speaker 3: a thing on Substack where you read one chapter of 171 00:09:34,160 --> 00:09:36,160 Speaker 3: Worn Piece a day for a year. It has like 172 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:38,240 Speaker 3: three hundred and fifty five chapters, so it works out 173 00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:41,280 Speaker 3: very well. And when you read just a short thing, 174 00:09:41,760 --> 00:09:44,720 Speaker 3: it does land differently. It's like binge watching Worse versus 175 00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:47,079 Speaker 3: watching one episode. When you read just one and really 176 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:49,960 Speaker 3: think about it, it's a very different kind of experience. 177 00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:52,080 Speaker 3: So that it's funny because when I was writing this 178 00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:54,360 Speaker 3: book of afrosm suer like, oh this is fun It's 179 00:09:54,400 --> 00:09:56,559 Speaker 3: like people will just whip through it. It's bite sized, 180 00:09:56,600 --> 00:09:59,720 Speaker 3: it's easy, and like, no, it's actually very dense because 181 00:09:59,720 --> 00:10:02,240 Speaker 3: if you is reading, if you read more than a 182 00:10:02,280 --> 00:10:04,880 Speaker 3: few you start feeling like, whoa, that's a lot on 183 00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:07,320 Speaker 3: my mind. So I love the idea of doing just 184 00:10:07,360 --> 00:10:09,360 Speaker 3: a little bit of each day with like a classic 185 00:10:09,480 --> 00:10:10,680 Speaker 3: like that. Yeah, totally. 186 00:10:10,720 --> 00:10:12,559 Speaker 2: I mean, this is your book is a book that 187 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:17,560 Speaker 2: I can imagine living on a bedside table because it 188 00:10:17,640 --> 00:10:20,760 Speaker 2: really feels like you want to take it in these 189 00:10:20,800 --> 00:10:24,079 Speaker 2: bite sized pieces and just even just drift off to 190 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:26,360 Speaker 2: sleep or wake up in the morning with you know, 191 00:10:26,520 --> 00:10:28,000 Speaker 2: just a lot of this wisdom. 192 00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:31,800 Speaker 3: The one I quote most often is, or my family 193 00:10:31,880 --> 00:10:34,000 Speaker 3: quotes the most often is something that can be done 194 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:36,400 Speaker 3: at any time has often done at no time, because 195 00:10:36,400 --> 00:10:38,840 Speaker 3: that's just just like we've all done, and we've all 196 00:10:38,880 --> 00:10:40,800 Speaker 3: experienced it, you know, and you're like, what's you have 197 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:42,880 Speaker 3: a phrase for it? You're like, Okay, I'm saying that 198 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:45,720 Speaker 3: all the time. Yeah, yeah, totally mourning myself. 199 00:10:45,880 --> 00:10:54,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, we'll be back in a moment with more family secrets. 200 00:10:55,520 --> 00:10:58,760 Speaker 2: The first of the aphorisms in your book that I 201 00:10:58,880 --> 00:11:04,000 Speaker 2: jotted down as being relevant to family secrets is we 202 00:11:04,040 --> 00:11:07,120 Speaker 2: should pay special attention to anything that we lie about 203 00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:12,880 Speaker 2: or try to hunt. Yeah right, yeah, yeah, I mean 204 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:18,079 Speaker 2: to me, every episode, every every conversation, whether on the 205 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:20,840 Speaker 2: podcast or not on the podcast, with people who have 206 00:11:21,880 --> 00:11:27,480 Speaker 2: either been holding their own secret, or have discovered a 207 00:11:27,520 --> 00:11:32,600 Speaker 2: secret that has been withheld from them, or have a 208 00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:35,200 Speaker 2: secret that they can't even quite touch because it's a 209 00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:35,760 Speaker 2: live wire. 210 00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:38,160 Speaker 3: Well, this is your opening line about it is the 211 00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:40,640 Speaker 3: secrets that people. How does it go? The people that 212 00:11:40,760 --> 00:11:42,680 Speaker 3: keep people keep from us, that people that. 213 00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:45,360 Speaker 2: Secrets that are kept from us, the secrets we keep 214 00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:47,320 Speaker 2: from others, and the secrets we keep from ourselves, which 215 00:11:47,440 --> 00:11:51,120 Speaker 2: always to me, that's the secrets we keep from ourselves 216 00:11:51,200 --> 00:11:53,400 Speaker 2: are to me the most interesting. 217 00:11:53,880 --> 00:11:55,040 Speaker 3: That's what we lie about. 218 00:11:55,200 --> 00:11:58,360 Speaker 2: That's right, even if we're not conscious that we're lying. 219 00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:01,800 Speaker 2: I mean, in a way, this aphorism is so fantastic 220 00:12:01,920 --> 00:12:07,040 Speaker 2: because just the language, we should pay special attention to 221 00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:09,240 Speaker 2: anything that we lie about or try to hide, because 222 00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:12,520 Speaker 2: even if we don't know that that's exactly what we're doing, 223 00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:16,520 Speaker 2: we do know it's the it's the unthought known, we 224 00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:17,800 Speaker 2: kind of know it in our bones. 225 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:20,880 Speaker 3: Well, it's also the snoop. Like you also, you say 226 00:12:20,920 --> 00:12:23,080 Speaker 3: often that this is a theme that comes up with 227 00:12:23,160 --> 00:12:26,679 Speaker 3: your your guess is the snoop. And so there's a 228 00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:30,840 Speaker 3: sense of like, I can't ask for this information straight 229 00:12:30,880 --> 00:12:35,920 Speaker 3: out somehow, it's it's taboo. I have to sneak around 230 00:12:35,960 --> 00:12:39,480 Speaker 3: and look for it, you know, because it's there's I 231 00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:41,120 Speaker 3: have to hide the fact that I want. 232 00:12:40,960 --> 00:12:45,800 Speaker 2: To know right right. And there's a real theme of 233 00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:49,680 Speaker 2: often people in their childhood's snooping, snooping on their parents, 234 00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:53,200 Speaker 2: snooping on their on the adults around them. And and 235 00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:57,079 Speaker 2: another thing that comes up is that when we're doing 236 00:12:57,120 --> 00:12:59,840 Speaker 2: something like that, I mean, it's like what you said 237 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:02,760 Speaker 2: about your own childhood and the endlessly rich and sort 238 00:13:02,800 --> 00:13:05,120 Speaker 2: of fascinating it was to you because it was your childhood, 239 00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:08,640 Speaker 2: we don't know anything other than our own childhoods. So 240 00:13:09,400 --> 00:13:12,240 Speaker 2: you know, if like I snooped all the time as 241 00:13:12,280 --> 00:13:16,600 Speaker 2: a kid, and I just alternately thought either there's something 242 00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:21,080 Speaker 2: very wrong with me, or maybe everybody does this because 243 00:13:21,080 --> 00:13:23,360 Speaker 2: I had no I had nothing to go on. So 244 00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:26,560 Speaker 2: I'm just the idea of the special attention. I think 245 00:13:26,559 --> 00:13:28,880 Speaker 2: that will really stay with me because that that feeling 246 00:13:28,920 --> 00:13:31,120 Speaker 2: of oh, yeah, I need, I need to pay attention 247 00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:35,440 Speaker 2: to this, even if I don't know exactly what it 248 00:13:35,480 --> 00:13:37,320 Speaker 2: is that I'm paying attention to, need to sit with 249 00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:40,880 Speaker 2: it right exactly. So the next one I came up with, 250 00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:42,080 Speaker 2: and then I'm going to ask you about what you 251 00:13:42,080 --> 00:13:45,760 Speaker 2: came up with and whether there's an overlap. Build your 252 00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:49,319 Speaker 2: shrine at the top of a long steep path. A 253 00:13:49,520 --> 00:13:52,400 Speaker 2: view is more beautiful when we've earned it. 254 00:13:53,320 --> 00:13:56,920 Speaker 4: I feel like them, part of them, the power of 255 00:13:57,160 --> 00:13:59,360 Speaker 4: efforts are just sort of like the drop my quality. 256 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:03,440 Speaker 4: Like that's what I had to say, Yeah, build your 257 00:14:03,600 --> 00:14:06,319 Speaker 4: shrine on the on the top of a long steep path. 258 00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:10,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, And that is also what I feel like, the earning, 259 00:14:11,320 --> 00:14:14,880 Speaker 2: the discovery the long steep path. You know, the idea 260 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:18,640 Speaker 2: that so often guests are and again not just guests, 261 00:14:18,679 --> 00:14:23,200 Speaker 2: but also people I encounter. They make these discoveries later 262 00:14:23,240 --> 00:14:25,960 Speaker 2: in life, and you know, after a long steep path 263 00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:31,040 Speaker 2: and that feeling of oh, the recognition that that is 264 00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:35,840 Speaker 2: making the pieces fall into place, and there's something really 265 00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:40,280 Speaker 2: beautiful about that. And then the word shrine and there's 266 00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:43,680 Speaker 2: something that is you know, sort of poetic and divine 267 00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:46,040 Speaker 2: about that. It's making it holy in some way. 268 00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:48,920 Speaker 3: That's one of my favorites. Well, here's one that I 269 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:51,960 Speaker 3: thought of. Tell me if you think it, you think 270 00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:55,760 Speaker 3: it resonates with your themes, which is the place that 271 00:14:55,880 --> 00:14:58,120 Speaker 3: hurts isn't always the place that's injured. 272 00:14:58,640 --> 00:15:02,480 Speaker 2: I wrote that down, Gretcha, there you go. Yeah, that 273 00:15:02,640 --> 00:15:05,400 Speaker 2: was the last one I wrote down. That's so powerful. 274 00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:09,720 Speaker 2: The place that hurts isn't always the place that's injured. 275 00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:13,920 Speaker 2: I mean the level on which that is you know, 276 00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:19,120 Speaker 2: sometimes physically true, but metaphorically true. Why do we behave 277 00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:25,120 Speaker 2: in certain ways based on you know, something that is 278 00:15:25,320 --> 00:15:29,920 Speaker 2: painful or something that is like doesn't feel right, and 279 00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:32,800 Speaker 2: we don't know the origin of it, we don't know 280 00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:34,720 Speaker 2: where it comes from, and yet it has the power 281 00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:37,920 Speaker 2: to shape our entire lives until we do. I mean, 282 00:15:38,120 --> 00:15:41,680 Speaker 2: Carl Jung said, until we make the unconscious conscious, it 283 00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:43,840 Speaker 2: will direct our lives, and we will call it fate. 284 00:15:44,520 --> 00:15:46,920 Speaker 3: One of the things I've write about a lot or 285 00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:49,240 Speaker 3: talk about a lot, is identify the problem, because a 286 00:15:49,280 --> 00:15:51,520 Speaker 3: lot of times people have a sense of uneasiness or 287 00:15:52,240 --> 00:15:54,760 Speaker 3: distress or a feeling like they need to change, but 288 00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:57,480 Speaker 3: without identifying the problem, a lot of times we change 289 00:15:57,520 --> 00:16:01,040 Speaker 3: what's easy to change or what's obvious, or we blamed 290 00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:04,400 Speaker 3: somebody else for something that we're feeling instead of really 291 00:16:04,480 --> 00:16:09,760 Speaker 3: probing to understand, like what where is this actually coming from? 292 00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:14,160 Speaker 3: Which sometimes looks quite different from the pain that we're experiencing. 293 00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:18,960 Speaker 3: And and so I think that that often happens where 294 00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:22,120 Speaker 3: Actually a friend of mine said, she said, you know, 295 00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:24,080 Speaker 3: I live in New York City. And the friend of 296 00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:26,080 Speaker 3: mine was saying, she's going to look for a new apartment, 297 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:28,760 Speaker 3: and I said, and as I see her like six 298 00:16:28,840 --> 00:16:32,200 Speaker 3: months later, and because she really wanted outdoor space, so 299 00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:34,080 Speaker 3: I saw her six months later and I said, oh, 300 00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:36,320 Speaker 3: how is the apartment hunting going? And she said, well, 301 00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:37,880 Speaker 3: I gave it up. And I said why, like you 302 00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:40,920 Speaker 3: were so excited to do it. She said, well, it's 303 00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:43,400 Speaker 3: I told by broker I thought I wanted outdoor space, 304 00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:47,680 Speaker 3: but I realized I really want a husband, and it's like, right, 305 00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:49,960 Speaker 3: it's a lot. You know, you'd be like, okay, getting 306 00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:53,840 Speaker 3: outdoor space. That's what she thought she wanted. That wasn't 307 00:16:53,880 --> 00:16:58,400 Speaker 3: really going to address her problem. But fortunately for her, 308 00:16:58,480 --> 00:17:00,720 Speaker 3: she figured that out in time before she made a 309 00:17:00,760 --> 00:17:04,440 Speaker 3: huge change that wouldn't really have resolved what was bothering her. 310 00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:07,240 Speaker 3: I think that's really easy to do, and so you 311 00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:09,640 Speaker 3: say like, oh, it's the fault of this or that 312 00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:12,320 Speaker 3: person or this situation, when in fact it might be 313 00:17:12,359 --> 00:17:15,600 Speaker 3: something quite different that might be more painful to acknowledge. 314 00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:18,560 Speaker 2: So here's another one that I picked out. Sometimes we 315 00:17:18,680 --> 00:17:22,680 Speaker 2: choose to confess our deepest secret to a stranger rather 316 00:17:22,760 --> 00:17:27,399 Speaker 2: than a friend. Mm hmmm. You know, I was thinking 317 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:33,320 Speaker 2: about that because I once I think in the first season, 318 00:17:33,359 --> 00:17:37,520 Speaker 2: maybe the second season of Family Secrets, I had a 319 00:17:37,560 --> 00:17:41,879 Speaker 2: guest on who did not want to be identified, and 320 00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:45,080 Speaker 2: I decided that that was okay, and we had a 321 00:17:45,080 --> 00:17:49,199 Speaker 2: great conversation and it was a really good episode. But 322 00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:54,320 Speaker 2: I got quite a lot of blowback from Family Secrets 323 00:17:54,359 --> 00:17:57,960 Speaker 2: listeners who were like, wait a minute, you know, we 324 00:17:58,040 --> 00:18:05,320 Speaker 2: thought this was a podcast about eradicating shame and you know, 325 00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:09,679 Speaker 2: owning our own stories and you know, becoming sort of 326 00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:14,560 Speaker 2: comfortable with whatever has made us who we are. So 327 00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:18,119 Speaker 2: why would it be why would you have a guest 328 00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:21,400 Speaker 2: on who didn't want to be identified? And I've never 329 00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:25,080 Speaker 2: done it again, and I think there's something in this 330 00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:26,560 Speaker 2: aphorism that speaks to that. 331 00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:30,200 Speaker 3: But on the other hand, is there privacy versus secrecy? 332 00:18:30,320 --> 00:18:33,280 Speaker 3: And maybe somebody feels that they can confess to a 333 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:36,080 Speaker 3: bunch of strangers, but they don't really want to deal 334 00:18:36,119 --> 00:18:40,680 Speaker 3: with it. They want to deserve there. I mean, I 335 00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:42,760 Speaker 3: think the reason that it's easier to tell a stranger 336 00:18:42,840 --> 00:18:46,800 Speaker 3: is that there's no consequences, Like, there's no there's no aftermath, 337 00:18:47,119 --> 00:18:51,479 Speaker 3: there's no talking about it again, nobody else gets drawn 338 00:18:51,560 --> 00:18:55,800 Speaker 3: into it because it's just it's just a stranger and 339 00:18:55,800 --> 00:18:58,280 Speaker 3: there's something kind of beautiful about that. And in a way, 340 00:18:58,440 --> 00:19:01,159 Speaker 3: a big public can also do you like that stranger, 341 00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:04,560 Speaker 3: But maybe you're saying you don't want you don't want 342 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:06,320 Speaker 3: to talk to people who are not ready to deal 343 00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:07,000 Speaker 3: with that exactly. 344 00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:10,359 Speaker 2: And there's there are different kinds of consequences. I mean, 345 00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:14,080 Speaker 2: there's certainly the consequences and This is something that we 346 00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:18,159 Speaker 2: run into a lot. Is not wanting to betray or 347 00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:22,560 Speaker 2: hurt someone else's confidence or in a family, one person's 348 00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:25,520 Speaker 2: I'm comfortable with this not being a secret is another 349 00:19:25,520 --> 00:19:30,520 Speaker 2: person's nightmare. But there's another and I understand that completely. 350 00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:36,840 Speaker 2: There's another kind of I think fear that I think 351 00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:42,280 Speaker 2: about more in terms of just my guests and the stories, 352 00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:47,720 Speaker 2: the way that I hope they land, which is the 353 00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:51,920 Speaker 2: eradication if that's even possible, of shame of the the 354 00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:55,600 Speaker 2: you know, the feeling that there are so many people 355 00:19:56,240 --> 00:20:02,639 Speaker 2: who are listening or reading and nodding their heads and 356 00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:05,239 Speaker 2: saying like, yeah, I get that, or something like that 357 00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:07,680 Speaker 2: happened in my family, or even if something like that 358 00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:11,560 Speaker 2: didn't happen in my family. You know, you're you're okay, 359 00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:14,040 Speaker 2: this is your you know, this is this is okay. 360 00:20:14,119 --> 00:20:16,040 Speaker 2: I'm you know, sorry, sorry that this happened to you, 361 00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:19,240 Speaker 2: but you're like, you know, there's a there's a kind 362 00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:23,680 Speaker 2: of humanity, I guess, like the shared human nature of 363 00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:28,919 Speaker 2: There's very little I think that we could say to 364 00:20:29,119 --> 00:20:33,640 Speaker 2: each other in terms of our inner worlds that we 365 00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:37,520 Speaker 2: can sometimes feel are so shameful or mortifying. Very little 366 00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:40,320 Speaker 2: that would actually genuinely be shocking. 367 00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:45,159 Speaker 3: Right, No, your on secrets seemed so much more in 368 00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:48,679 Speaker 3: full than the secrets of other people. No, it's it's 369 00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:52,239 Speaker 3: very true. Yeah, you'll read about somebody who's like they 370 00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:55,840 Speaker 3: they they agonized for decades and then they you know, 371 00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:57,760 Speaker 3: and then and you're like, oh, that's it, that's not 372 00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:01,119 Speaker 3: that big a deal, right, Yes, now it's true. But 373 00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:02,800 Speaker 3: it is tricky though. And I was like, let's say 374 00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:06,119 Speaker 3: there's there's there's something that big and traumatic that happens 375 00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:09,280 Speaker 3: to person a. And person a has a brother and 376 00:21:09,320 --> 00:21:12,840 Speaker 3: sister and parents and children, and they are all talking 377 00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:15,399 Speaker 3: about their own story about what happened with somebody who 378 00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:17,919 Speaker 3: was very close to them, and yet there are secrets. 379 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:20,600 Speaker 3: If one person talks about it, then they've all essentially 380 00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:24,399 Speaker 3: talked about it. So I see how you should get 381 00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:28,360 Speaker 3: tricky depending on the situation, right, exactly exactly. So then 382 00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:31,280 Speaker 3: that leads me to one more the last one I have, 383 00:21:31,359 --> 00:21:37,440 Speaker 3: which is decisions will be made by choice or by chance. Yeah, 384 00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:40,440 Speaker 3: because not deciding is a decision. 385 00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:46,200 Speaker 2: Not choosing is a choice. And wow, that's yes, that's 386 00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:46,880 Speaker 2: really powerful. 387 00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:50,440 Speaker 3: Uh, yes, and it's and and if you've ever felt 388 00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:53,840 Speaker 3: that happen. It feels like going with the flow is 389 00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:58,440 Speaker 3: it's taking you someplace against your will, just as if 390 00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:02,200 Speaker 3: you were fighting against somebody else. Yeah. No, I have 391 00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:03,960 Speaker 3: experienced that many times myself. 392 00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:07,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, and in ways both small and large. I remember 393 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:11,080 Speaker 2: when my memory Inheritance came out, like literally the day 394 00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:12,800 Speaker 2: it came out, and I gave my first reading in 395 00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:16,480 Speaker 2: a bookstore. There were a lot of people there who 396 00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:19,840 Speaker 2: just did not seem like my usual readers, And among 397 00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:25,880 Speaker 2: them were couples sitting there looking really uncomfortable and stricken 398 00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:29,320 Speaker 2: and holding hands or just sitting kind of stiffly. And 399 00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:34,480 Speaker 2: I realized that these were couples who had not divulged 400 00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:40,080 Speaker 2: to their children that either yeah, you know that they 401 00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:42,919 Speaker 2: that they used a donor, or possibly even that they 402 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:45,719 Speaker 2: were adopted, but you know, given the times, it was 403 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:48,040 Speaker 2: more likely that it was, you know, they used a donor, 404 00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:50,360 Speaker 2: an egg donor or a sperm donor and just made 405 00:22:50,359 --> 00:22:53,440 Speaker 2: the decision that the child never needed to know. And 406 00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:55,879 Speaker 2: and this came up again and again and again for 407 00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:59,080 Speaker 2: me in you know, q and as and or therapists 408 00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:01,679 Speaker 2: would say, I have patient insteader going through this, you know, 409 00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:04,840 Speaker 2: what should I tell them? And Meanwhile, I'm not I'm 410 00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:07,040 Speaker 2: not a therapist and I'm not an expert. I'm someone 411 00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:09,720 Speaker 2: that's happened to And I tried to come up with 412 00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:12,720 Speaker 2: something to say that would be true and useful and 413 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:16,120 Speaker 2: without a whiff of judgment. And so what I came 414 00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:18,200 Speaker 2: up was that I would say, is they're going to 415 00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:23,760 Speaker 2: find out. Ah, They're going to find out because there 416 00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:26,280 Speaker 2: are no more of these kinds of secrets, these these 417 00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:28,359 Speaker 2: are these are going to go the way of you 418 00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:30,760 Speaker 2: know that. It's just it's not going to be possible anymore. 419 00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:34,760 Speaker 2: And so, but not deciding is a decision, and not 420 00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:36,520 Speaker 2: choosing is a choice, and. 421 00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:40,639 Speaker 3: Exactly, Yeah, but I love that that was your response 422 00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:46,400 Speaker 3: because it's right. It's there's no advice to it, there's 423 00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:50,280 Speaker 3: no judgment to it. There's merely minding them of something 424 00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:53,200 Speaker 3: that is very obvious to anybody who thinks about it, 425 00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:56,840 Speaker 3: which is they're going to find out. And then given that, 426 00:23:57,720 --> 00:23:59,359 Speaker 3: if you know they're going to find out, what are 427 00:23:59,400 --> 00:23:59,919 Speaker 3: you going to do? 428 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:03,000 Speaker 2: Right? That affects your choice? I mean, it may not 429 00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:05,080 Speaker 2: affect your choice. You may still decide that you're too 430 00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:08,400 Speaker 2: afraid or have your own reasons, but you are definitely 431 00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:11,840 Speaker 2: making a choice to not that your kids are going 432 00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:13,920 Speaker 2: to find this out at some point and maybe maybe 433 00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:14,920 Speaker 2: you're not alive anymore. 434 00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:17,240 Speaker 3: I mean, one of the things that I've really time 435 00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:20,359 Speaker 3: to believe and for myself, because I've fallen into this 436 00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:23,639 Speaker 3: many times, most significantly when I went to law school, 437 00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:25,399 Speaker 3: because I just drifted into law school. I was like, 438 00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:28,159 Speaker 3: it was this the easy default decision. I just I 439 00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:31,000 Speaker 3: did it very it was sort of the easiest non 440 00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:34,080 Speaker 3: choice I could make, even though it was incredibly difficult 441 00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:36,560 Speaker 3: and hard work to do it. I did it for 442 00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:39,000 Speaker 3: all the wrong reasons, and I'm glad that I went. 443 00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:42,480 Speaker 3: And that's sometimes confusing because sometimes we don't decide or 444 00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:45,600 Speaker 3: are We drift into a decision and then we're happy 445 00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:47,840 Speaker 3: with it. So it's not like it always ends badly. 446 00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:51,400 Speaker 3: But I really now very uncomfortable when I or anybody 447 00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:54,640 Speaker 3: close to me is making a choice without intention. Then 448 00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:56,239 Speaker 3: like you can make the wrong choice, or you can 449 00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:58,159 Speaker 3: decide to do nothing at all as to the person, 450 00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:00,320 Speaker 3: like maybe we've just decided, you know, we're not going 451 00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:03,080 Speaker 3: to raise it. That's our decision. But that's very different 452 00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:06,800 Speaker 3: from just being just not confronting it and not making 453 00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:11,359 Speaker 3: a decision. It's it's that kind of non choice choice 454 00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:15,320 Speaker 3: is very unsatisfying in the end. Yeah, I agree. 455 00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:17,639 Speaker 2: But what you're really talking about, I think is a 456 00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:22,400 Speaker 2: self awareness, you know, a self knowledge. It goes back 457 00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:24,480 Speaker 2: to the paying special attention. 458 00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:28,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's the great aim, is self knowledge. And you think, 459 00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:31,320 Speaker 3: I just hang out with myself all day long. What 460 00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:33,360 Speaker 3: can be easier than self knowledge? And yet I think 461 00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:36,600 Speaker 3: it's a great challenge of our lives, which is well, 462 00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:38,760 Speaker 3: which brings me to another secret of adulthood. See if 463 00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:41,479 Speaker 3: you think this is relevant to family secrets, which is 464 00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:45,040 Speaker 3: we know what matters to people when they repeat themselves. 465 00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:46,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that one. 466 00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:50,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, because it does seem like sometimes the family secrets, 467 00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:53,479 Speaker 3: people are saying nothing. But then sometimes it's like certain 468 00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:56,800 Speaker 3: things just get repeated over and over and in that 469 00:25:56,840 --> 00:25:59,320 Speaker 3: way you're like, Okay, that's significant in some way or 470 00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:01,239 Speaker 3: a certain pattern and get repeated over and over. 471 00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:03,520 Speaker 2: Yes, and you may not know for a very long 472 00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:08,040 Speaker 2: time why. It's almost as if it's in bold when 473 00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:11,560 Speaker 2: you hear it. It's just something that you you know, 474 00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:17,600 Speaker 2: that one makes note of without knowing why. And I 475 00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:22,320 Speaker 2: think if we're if if we're fortunate and eventually we 476 00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:27,760 Speaker 2: are able to come to know what that means. Then 477 00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:31,320 Speaker 2: it's like, you know, in reverse, we look back and think, oh, 478 00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:32,040 Speaker 2: that's what that was. 479 00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:36,080 Speaker 3: I get it. That's such a gratifying feeling when you 480 00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:38,280 Speaker 3: look back and you sort of see a pattern where. 481 00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:39,800 Speaker 3: I mean, I think this is what a lot of 482 00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:41,320 Speaker 3: people get from therapy, and a lot of times when 483 00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:43,639 Speaker 3: people get from keeping journals or any kind of like 484 00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:48,359 Speaker 3: narrative practice, which is as you're telling the story to yourself, 485 00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:52,000 Speaker 3: you can start to identify patterns that in the ongoingness 486 00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:55,439 Speaker 3: of life sometimes you don't see because you don't have 487 00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:56,560 Speaker 3: that kind of reflection. 488 00:26:57,200 --> 00:27:00,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think it's also you know, we 489 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:04,360 Speaker 2: talk a lot about trauma. It's one of the hallmarks 490 00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:09,600 Speaker 2: of like the narrative that someone who's in the midst 491 00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:13,000 Speaker 2: of being traumatized by something tells is like a loop. 492 00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:16,720 Speaker 2: It's like a closed feedback loop. It's it's the same 493 00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:22,919 Speaker 2: story over and over again with absolutely no deepening until 494 00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:28,520 Speaker 2: one is finally begins to be able to take like 495 00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:31,520 Speaker 2: a half a step back and start to start to 496 00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:34,160 Speaker 2: see a little more clearly, a little bit more from 497 00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:43,160 Speaker 2: a distance. Mm hmm, We'll be right back. So any 498 00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:44,800 Speaker 2: others that you remarked. 499 00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:47,520 Speaker 3: Well, what of them was? We care for many people 500 00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:51,720 Speaker 3: we don't particularly care for, because that seems to be 501 00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:53,959 Speaker 3: a big scene that family secrets were just people where 502 00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:56,439 Speaker 3: they really are struggling in a way that where they're like, 503 00:27:56,560 --> 00:27:58,959 Speaker 3: I do love this person or care for this person, 504 00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:01,560 Speaker 3: or I do have to ignore and my mother is 505 00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:04,280 Speaker 3: still my mother or or whatever the case, and I do, 506 00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:06,639 Speaker 3: but sometimes that it's really hard to care for people 507 00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:07,400 Speaker 3: we don't care for. 508 00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:10,840 Speaker 2: Right, right, and everything that gets placed on top of that, 509 00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:14,080 Speaker 2: the guilt or you know, feeling like you know, the 510 00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:18,119 Speaker 2: feeling conflicted or feeling like a bad person. But that 511 00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:20,960 Speaker 2: is the reason why it's an aphorism is because it's 512 00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:24,960 Speaker 2: kind of it's just true, it's kind of unimpeachable. 513 00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:27,480 Speaker 3: Well, one of the things I like about aphorisms and 514 00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:29,720 Speaker 3: sometimes you disagree, and just because they're so short, you 515 00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:32,639 Speaker 3: can sort of think about it more clearly and come 516 00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:35,080 Speaker 3: up with your own conclusions. Like I'm sure there's I 517 00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:38,240 Speaker 3: have aphorisms in my book that people might disagree with, 518 00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:40,600 Speaker 3: but I'm like, but now now you know your own 519 00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:45,360 Speaker 3: mind better, Like, and even in disagreeing, there's clarity because 520 00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:47,600 Speaker 3: you're thinking about something that you might not have ever 521 00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:51,160 Speaker 3: sort of stopped to inquire about your own views into 522 00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:52,600 Speaker 3: which is also helpful. 523 00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:55,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, because we don't. We get caught up in just 524 00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:59,200 Speaker 2: the the busy slipstream of you know, our daily lives, 525 00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:04,000 Speaker 2: and we just else. We don't stop and you know, 526 00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:06,760 Speaker 2: sort of interrogate what's going on until we're you know, 527 00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:09,040 Speaker 2: we're all forced to at some point or another. We're 528 00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:13,080 Speaker 2: all forced to or until it becomes a kind of 529 00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:17,640 Speaker 2: habit or a practice. I mean, your practice of keeping 530 00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:21,120 Speaker 2: these you know, this massive file of aphorisms is has 531 00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:24,200 Speaker 2: been something that's been like among the building blocks of 532 00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:25,600 Speaker 2: your life and your adult life. 533 00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:29,200 Speaker 3: Mm hm No, it's something that I've done, I mean 534 00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:30,960 Speaker 3: back to when I was eight or ten years old. 535 00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:34,720 Speaker 3: It's like copying out quotations and keeping them in categories. 536 00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:37,480 Speaker 3: And I'm always interested in one. Like the things that 537 00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:39,760 Speaker 3: we do as children like play into what we do 538 00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:43,080 Speaker 3: as adults. And this is definitely something that I did 539 00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:46,680 Speaker 3: as a child, was collect collect collect copy. 540 00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:50,120 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, I share that with you and I and 541 00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:52,200 Speaker 2: it's so interesting because when you're doing it, you're not 542 00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:54,600 Speaker 2: doing it with any aim in mind. 543 00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:56,560 Speaker 3: No, it's just pure admiration. 544 00:29:57,000 --> 00:29:57,360 Speaker 2: Yeah. 545 00:29:57,400 --> 00:29:59,720 Speaker 5: But you know what's interesting, though, is I will some 546 00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:03,200 Speaker 5: time write something where I'm like, this seems very significant 547 00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:05,360 Speaker 5: to me and I don't even know why, But I'll 548 00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:07,160 Speaker 5: find myself like I'll finish a book and then I'll 549 00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:09,520 Speaker 5: find myself thinking about a passage or something and I'm like, 550 00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:12,360 Speaker 5: I don't know why that struck me, but I need 551 00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:13,520 Speaker 5: to copy it and keep it. 552 00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:16,160 Speaker 3: And then years later I'll be like, oh, now I 553 00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:19,960 Speaker 3: understand what that meant, or like why I cared about 554 00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:22,280 Speaker 3: that or why that struck me. And it's such an 555 00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:25,560 Speaker 3: it's just such a gratifying feeling where you're sort of like, Okay, 556 00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:27,880 Speaker 3: these ideas have been swirling around in my head for 557 00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:31,200 Speaker 3: such a long time, and now finally I understand what 558 00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:32,680 Speaker 3: I was just groping toward. 559 00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:34,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like you catch up with yourself. 560 00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:38,120 Speaker 3: Well, for years, I was absolutely I love the writing 561 00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:40,360 Speaker 3: of Andy Warhol. I don't even really like his visual art, 562 00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:45,320 Speaker 3: but I love I mean, he's this bonker's thinker. And 563 00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:47,480 Speaker 3: so I've read and re read like the books that 564 00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:49,520 Speaker 3: he wrote in his interviews, and one of those things 565 00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:51,160 Speaker 3: is he tells a little story about how he was 566 00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:53,440 Speaker 3: going to Woolworths with a friend and his friend is like, oh, 567 00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:56,320 Speaker 3: I can't stand that buzz. And he was like, what buzz? 568 00:30:56,360 --> 00:30:58,200 Speaker 3: And then he said, oh, yeah, there was a buzz, 569 00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:00,240 Speaker 3: but for me, it was completely drowned out by the 570 00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:03,640 Speaker 3: smell of roasting peanuts. I was like, what is that? 571 00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:06,520 Speaker 3: How can a noise be drowned out by the smell 572 00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:09,160 Speaker 3: of roasting peanuts? Like, I just thought it was an 573 00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:13,480 Speaker 3: example of his kind of just strange mind. But it's 574 00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:15,560 Speaker 3: actually true. I wrote Life in Five Senses, and it's 575 00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:18,800 Speaker 3: actually true that when one sense is really activated, the 576 00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:21,720 Speaker 3: others kind of fade back. And so it literally was 577 00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:26,040 Speaker 3: true for him. But but you know, it took Andy 578 00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:29,880 Speaker 3: Warhol to to describe it as such a like interesting 579 00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:32,960 Speaker 3: and poetic way, But it was just I was like, 580 00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:35,760 Speaker 3: you know, years and years and years later, I finally 581 00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:39,520 Speaker 3: caught up to the day that I copied that out 582 00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:41,840 Speaker 3: of the philosophy of Andy Warhol. 583 00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:45,680 Speaker 2: I love that, and like it also makes these kinds 584 00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:50,080 Speaker 2: of collecting of these quotes, aphorisms, you know, pieces of 585 00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:53,600 Speaker 2: wisdom into a kind of journal of its own, because 586 00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:57,040 Speaker 2: you can you can see what preoccupied you. Yes, yeah, 587 00:31:57,480 --> 00:31:59,240 Speaker 2: it's so true. 588 00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:02,560 Speaker 3: It's so true. It's so true. No, like I went 589 00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:05,400 Speaker 3: through that because I wrote this unconventional biography of Whist Churchill, 590 00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:08,560 Speaker 3: and I had this giant collection of quotations that are 591 00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:12,120 Speaker 3: all about kind of the nature of biography, and and 592 00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:14,480 Speaker 3: then I just sort of moved on, and so I 593 00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:16,760 Speaker 3: wasn't preoccupied by the nature of biography anymore. And then 594 00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:19,440 Speaker 3: I was in this period where I was absolutely preoccupied 595 00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:22,680 Speaker 3: with color. I mean, I can't even describe to you 596 00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:26,360 Speaker 3: how I how much I spent thinking and talking and 597 00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:30,600 Speaker 3: reading about color, and has this huge file of color 598 00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:33,960 Speaker 3: quotations which I now still sometimes add to from time 599 00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:35,560 Speaker 3: to time or look at that. It's not the way 600 00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:37,760 Speaker 3: that it was for a while, because then I just 601 00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:39,720 Speaker 3: moved on. But yes, you're right, it is. It's a 602 00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:43,640 Speaker 3: kind of intellectible journal. Absolutely, it's so true. 603 00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:47,040 Speaker 2: So would you read a few of the passages. I've 604 00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:53,840 Speaker 2: earmarked a couple first one page thirty nine. It's in 605 00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:55,000 Speaker 2: the self realization. 606 00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:59,240 Speaker 3: Oh, I love the story. We're often better off admitting 607 00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:03,160 Speaker 3: uncomfortable facts about ourselves rather than trying to disguise them. 608 00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:08,640 Speaker 3: Nebraska saw great success with its tourist slogan. Honestly, it's 609 00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:13,200 Speaker 3: not for everyone. Marmite, the Yeast based savory spread declared 610 00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:16,320 Speaker 3: their love it or you Hate It? I mean I 611 00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:18,320 Speaker 3: just love that well. And there's been there's been a 612 00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:20,240 Speaker 3: kind of an update to that, which is the city 613 00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:23,200 Speaker 3: of Oslo did a huge campaign called is it even 614 00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:26,959 Speaker 3: a City? Where it's all about like we're this kind 615 00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:29,720 Speaker 3: of disgruntled inhabitant of Oslo is like is this even 616 00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:32,200 Speaker 3: a city? And everything that he's describing that he doesn't 617 00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:33,800 Speaker 3: like about it. Of course you're like, oh my gosh, 618 00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:39,120 Speaker 3: I must immediately go to Oslo. But right, it's uh, honestly, 619 00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:41,080 Speaker 3: it's not for everyone. It's it's the truth. 620 00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:45,280 Speaker 2: And there's something there's something that's so disarming about that. Yes, 621 00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:47,600 Speaker 2: and you trust the person who's saying that well. 622 00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:49,440 Speaker 3: And as a writer, one of the things kind of 623 00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:52,840 Speaker 3: relatedly that I remind myself is a strong voice repels 624 00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:57,640 Speaker 3: as well as attracts, And just like Nebraska, honestly, I'm 625 00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:01,200 Speaker 3: not for everyone, you know, And and that's okay. You don't. 626 00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:03,960 Speaker 3: You don't. You don't have to be you have to 627 00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:08,200 Speaker 3: Just the more you face that and can laugh at it, 628 00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:11,600 Speaker 3: the less the less upsetting the criticism of is. 629 00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:15,000 Speaker 2: Okay, I have a couple more, and that's on the 630 00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:18,400 Speaker 2: next page. Are you painting your own fakes? 631 00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:21,839 Speaker 3: Oh? Can I just say that one of the things 632 00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:24,080 Speaker 3: that's interesting after your book comes out is what resonates 633 00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:26,960 Speaker 3: with people, because you never really know what is going 634 00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:30,799 Speaker 3: to strike people's attention. But this is one that so 635 00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:33,440 Speaker 3: many people have mentioned to me. So I'm glad you're 636 00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:36,080 Speaker 3: I'm glad you're you're appointed to it. So the aphorism 637 00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:39,440 Speaker 3: is the question are you painting your own fakes? And 638 00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:42,200 Speaker 3: the illustration is There's a story about an art dealer 639 00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:46,080 Speaker 3: who bought a canvas signed Picasso. To verify its authenticity, 640 00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:49,600 Speaker 3: he visited Picasso at the artist can studio. After a 641 00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:53,600 Speaker 3: glance at the painting, Picassa declared it's a fake. Just 642 00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:56,879 Speaker 3: a few months later, the dealer returned with another of Pakasso. 643 00:34:57,239 --> 00:35:00,000 Speaker 3: He returned to can showed it to Picasso, and Picassa 644 00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:03,840 Speaker 3: so dismissed it as a fake. But Charmetstra said the dealer, 645 00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:06,160 Speaker 3: it so happens that I saw you with my own 646 00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:11,480 Speaker 3: eyes working on this very picture several years ago. Pakassa replied, 647 00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:16,080 Speaker 3: I often paint fakes. Sometimes we paint our own fakes, 648 00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:20,080 Speaker 3: and we should try to recognize it when we do. So. 649 00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:22,799 Speaker 3: That's very relevant for Family Secrets because it is this 650 00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:25,320 Speaker 3: idea of like, is there a fake? Are you painting 651 00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:25,719 Speaker 3: a fake? 652 00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:27,879 Speaker 2: Yes? And do you know it? 653 00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:30,719 Speaker 3: Do you know it? And do you know it? 654 00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:33,960 Speaker 2: Yeah? I mean that goes back to, you know, the 655 00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:37,800 Speaker 2: part of our conversation about even just kind of putting 656 00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:41,319 Speaker 2: on a happy face right exactly, or your basic garden 657 00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:44,000 Speaker 2: variety cocktail party chit chat of like how are you 658 00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:44,799 Speaker 2: doing good good? 659 00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:46,920 Speaker 3: Yes? 660 00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:55,560 Speaker 2: Here's Gretchen reading one more passage from Secrets of Adulthood. 661 00:35:56,960 --> 00:36:00,600 Speaker 3: When uncertain about how to proceed, make the choice that 662 00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:06,400 Speaker 3: allows you to choose the bigger life, step into the future, 663 00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:12,520 Speaker 3: live in an atmosphere of growth, deepen or broaden your relationships, 664 00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:15,880 Speaker 3: or put your values into the world. 665 00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:28,080 Speaker 2: Family Secrets is a production of iHeartRadio. Molly Zacour is 666 00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:31,280 Speaker 2: the story editor and Dylan Fagan is the executive producer. 667 00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:34,560 Speaker 2: If you have a family secret you'd like to share, 668 00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:37,360 Speaker 2: please leave us a voicemail and your story could appear 669 00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:40,799 Speaker 2: on an upcoming episode. Our number is one eight eight 670 00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:45,000 Speaker 2: eight Secret zero. That's the number zero. You can also 671 00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:49,919 Speaker 2: find me on Instagram at Danny Ryder and if you'd 672 00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:52,440 Speaker 2: like to know more about the story that inspired this podcast, 673 00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:54,719 Speaker 2: check out my memoir Inheritance. 674 00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:18,480 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 675 00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:20,600 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.