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Speaker 1: On this episode of Nutsworld, Israel's tanks to entering Rafa

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Speaker 1: and have taken control of the border crossing. The Israeli

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Speaker 1: Defense Force has stated it is limiting the scope of

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Speaker 1: the operation to destroy Hamas targets as the Israelis invade.

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Speaker 1: They're also ongoing talks of a ceasefire with Hamas to

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Speaker 1: free the remaining hostages. There's so much going on with

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Speaker 1: the Israel Hamas war. I just wanted to speak with

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Speaker 1: someone with expert knowledge, so I'm really pleased to welcome

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Speaker 1: my guest regulator, General Anthony J. Tata, US Army Retired Tony.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for joining me on Nutsworld.

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Speaker 2: Great to be with you, mister speaker.

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Speaker 1: You know, Hamas fired rockets at the Kramshaloms crossing a

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Speaker 1: corridor connecting southern Israel and Gaza on Sunday, reportedly killing

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Speaker 1: at least four Israeli soldiers delivering assistance. On Sunday, Prime

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Speaker 1: Minister Benjamin net Nyaho indicated that a Rafa invasion is likely.

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Speaker 1: Nen Yaho said, in the terrible Holocaust, there were great

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Speaker 1: world leaders who stood by idly. Therefore, the first lesson

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Speaker 1: the Holocaust is if we do not defend ourselves. Nobody

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Speaker 1: will defend us, and if we need to stand alone,

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Speaker 1: we will stand alone. Israel Defense forces on Monday urged

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Speaker 1: one hundred thousand people in the southern Gaza city to

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Speaker 1: evacuate via text messages and phone calls and drop flyers

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Speaker 1: warning of danger. Nen Yaho said on Monday that seizing Rafa,

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Speaker 1: which Israel says is the last significant Hamas stronghold in Gaza,

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Speaker 1: was vital to ensuring the militants can't rebuild their military

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Speaker 1: capabilities and repeat the October seventh t on Israel that

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Speaker 1: triggered the war, and Israel's been warning for months that

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Speaker 1: it plans to cend troops into Rafa. How do you

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Speaker 1: assess the current situation.

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Speaker 2: Mister speaker. A lot to unpack there. I think the

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Speaker 2: first thing that we should remember is Carl von Clausewitz's

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Speaker 2: maximum that wars politics by another means. And so when

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Speaker 2: you see all the Hamas Shukin and Jivan and juke In, Okay,

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Speaker 2: we'll release the hostages. Then they mortar people. Okay, we

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Speaker 2: want to cease fire. They're maneuvering. They're cornered right now,

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Speaker 2: and they're trying to maneuver out of a tight spot.

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Speaker 2: And so Israel has really three or four major factors

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Speaker 2: that contend with They have the far threat and Iran

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Speaker 2: that has attacked them and they've struck back. They have

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Speaker 2: at the operational level all the Sham militia groups Hespala,

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Speaker 2: the Sham militia groups in Syria and Iraq disrupting their

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Speaker 2: operations more close in. And then of course Samas. They've

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Speaker 2: got a factor in US support. Imagine that support from

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Speaker 2: this administration, and that seems to be like a sin wave.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes it's strong, sometimes at Ebbs. And then they've got

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Speaker 2: the tactical fight that you referenced there in Rafa, and

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Speaker 2: so this is really four dimensional warfare that they've got

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Speaker 2: going on, and they must destroy Hamas. There is no

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Speaker 2: security for the Israeli people if Hamas survives this war.

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Speaker 2: For the life of me, I don't understand, mister speaker,

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Speaker 2: that the Biden administration's infatuation with Iran or their support

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Speaker 2: for essentially Hamas veiled as support for the Palestinian people

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Speaker 2: and withholding ammunition, if that assertion is true, that this

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Speaker 2: administration without ammunition as Israel begins to ramp up for

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Speaker 2: really its last tactical should be its last tactical fight

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Speaker 2: to complete the destruction of Amas. I mean, what was

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Speaker 2: Trump impeached for withholding ammunition from Ukraine. So I think

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Speaker 2: about these things. Israel is well poised. They are putting

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Speaker 2: their own troops in harm's way by giving so much warning, surprise, deception, momentum,

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Speaker 2: are all tactics and maxims of military operations. They're given

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Speaker 2: all of that up and the name of protecting civilians

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Speaker 2: and the name of trying to help the civilians move

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Speaker 2: to these safe areas. Leaflets, loudspeakers, text message, everything, all

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Speaker 2: the psychological operations to get people moving so that they

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Speaker 2: can come in and defeat Hamas. And we know that

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Speaker 2: Hamas uses human shields, they won't let them leave, and

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Speaker 2: any civilian casualties in my view or at the hands

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Speaker 2: of Hamas, regardless of who launches the mortar round or

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Speaker 2: the artillery round or the bullet.

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Speaker 1: I was really surprised after all the effort that had

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Speaker 1: been put into Gaza that apparently in Rafa there may

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Speaker 1: be four or five brigades of the last stand of

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Speaker 1: the Hamas soldiers and that's really a pretty large number.

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Speaker 1: So this would be ultimately a real fight.

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Speaker 2: It is going to be a real fight, and I

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Speaker 2: think the operational pause that Israel has done has given

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Speaker 2: them the time to conduct what we call intelligence preparation

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Speaker 2: of the battlefield. They have signals intelligence, they have imagery intelligence,

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Speaker 2: they have layers and layers of intelligence human intelligence that

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Speaker 2: they can try to figure out where the hostages are,

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Speaker 2: figure out where command posts are, figure out where the

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Speaker 2: disposition of the enemy. And at the end of the day,

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Speaker 2: mister speaker, you're talking about house to house grunt fighting

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Speaker 2: like we saw in Fellujah and Rama and tough places,

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Speaker 2: tough fights that our marines and soldiers saw in Iraq.

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Speaker 2: And so I think we're getting ready to see something

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Speaker 2: here that is going to be brutal. And we can't

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Speaker 2: be distracted by the information operation led by the Islamist

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Speaker 2: extremists around the world that are trying to say, you know,

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Speaker 2: the Israelis are killing tens of thousands of children and

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Speaker 2: that kind of thing.

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Speaker 1: I'm confused because on March eighteenth, Biden's National security advisor

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Speaker 1: Jake Sullivan said, quote, our position is that hamas should

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Speaker 1: not be allowed to safe Haven and Rafa or anywhere

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Speaker 1: else but a major ground operation. There would be a mistake.

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Speaker 1: Close quote. Now, if you oppose a major ground operation,

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Speaker 1: you are by definition turning Rafa into a sanctuary city

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Speaker 1: for terrorists. What am I missing here?

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Speaker 2: It's just more of Jake Sullivan's double speak. Right, This

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Speaker 2: foreign policy is moot before it even leaves their mouths

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Speaker 2: because they're trying to have it both ways. They're trying

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Speaker 2: to win votes in Dearborn, Michigan and Minnesota from the

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Speaker 2: Islamic populations there because those are swing states. And they're

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Speaker 2: also trying to pretend like they're supporting our strongest ally

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Speaker 2: in the Middle East. And they're really on the horns

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Speaker 2: of a dilemma. And you literally cannot have it both ways.

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Speaker 2: You can't support the terrorists and support Israel. You just

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Speaker 2: can't do it. And so yet they would be much

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Speaker 2: better off picking one side or the other and not

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Speaker 2: letting domestic politics in their craven drive for power to

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Speaker 2: influence the national security of the United States and the world.

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Speaker 2: And so Netta has been very clear he needs to

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Speaker 2: destroy Hamas. I agree with that assessment. I've worked very

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Speaker 2: closely with the IDU, but as an undersecretary and as

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Speaker 2: a general.

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Speaker 1: For example, the European Commission President Ursula vonder Lyon said

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Speaker 1: last Monday that the Bloc would take action should Israel

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Speaker 1: invade Raffa. She said, quote, I think it would be

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Speaker 1: completely unacceptable if not in Yahoo would invade Raffa, adding

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Speaker 1: if he did, her executive would sit down with our

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Speaker 1: member states and act on that. What do you think

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Speaker 1: she's talking about? I mean, what kind of action are

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Speaker 1: they going to take?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there might be some economic action on the fringes.

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Speaker 2: I saw that, and I asked the same question, what

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Speaker 2: the heck is she talking about. Israel is in a

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Speaker 2: fight for its national survival and we cannot, mister speaker,

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Speaker 2: underestimate the influence of this information operation that the Islamist

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Speaker 2: extremists around the world, within our own universities there in

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Speaker 2: America and throughout Europe. They've got a vice gript on

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Speaker 2: the West. Sadly, the corporate media parrots a lot of

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Speaker 2: this and gives airtime to this and credibility to it,

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Speaker 2: and it's quite frankly, just a big information operation. People

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Speaker 2: need to go. I've been under the Arned Dome, I've

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Speaker 2: been to the southern border of Israel, near Gaza. I've

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Speaker 2: been up in the mountains in the north in the Golan,

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Speaker 2: I've seen how vulnerable israel Is and people who make

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Speaker 2: these kinds of statements need to go walk into those

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Speaker 2: tunnels that come in from Gaza as I did and

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Speaker 2: see how vulnerable the Israeli people are. Netna who is

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Speaker 2: on the right path. He can't be distracted by President

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Speaker 2: Biden or European Union or any other quote unquote world

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Speaker 2: leaders that are somehow beholden to this Islamic influence that

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Speaker 2: seems to be gripping the West right now.

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Speaker 1: Well, Nanya who says that the goal has to be

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Speaker 1: the absolute destruction of Hamas, some people argue that, in fact,

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Speaker 1: that's impossible, that you're not going to be able to

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Speaker 1: totally destroy Hamas because fanatic gorilla movements have huge resilience.

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Speaker 1: What is your take, Is it possible if they work

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Speaker 1: their way through Rafa that they will have functionally destroyed Hamas.

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Speaker 2: I'll rely mister speaker on my military training. Defeat has

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Speaker 2: a doctrinal definition of breaking the will to fight. Destroy

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Speaker 2: has a doctrinal definition of breaking the means to fight.

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Speaker 2: So I don't think they're going to break the will

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Speaker 2: to fight. If there's a few Hamas zealots left They're

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Speaker 2: going to still have the will to fight, but they

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Speaker 2: can come in and destroy the means to fight, the

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Speaker 2: capability to launch rockets twenty four to seven at Israel,

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Speaker 2: and I think that's what NETANYAHUO is talking about, is

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Speaker 2: destroying the capability to do harm. There's always going to

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Speaker 2: be true believers out there that want to carry a

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Speaker 2: suicide bomb into a cafe or whatever, but the at

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Speaker 2: scale large operations is what I think that Yahoo is

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Speaker 2: talking about preventing.

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Speaker 1: I'm curious not something that's maybe a political as much

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Speaker 1: as military. I don't understand why Israel allows the Hamas

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Speaker 1: high command to operate in nice apartments in Gutter. I mean,

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Speaker 1: if you're going to go after the soldiers, it strikes

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Speaker 1: me that you ought to find some way to make

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Speaker 1: it very dangerous to be one of the political public

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Speaker 1: leaders of an organization dedicated to wiping you out. What

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Speaker 1: is your take? Why are they so tolerant of Hamas

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Speaker 1: leadership at that level.

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Speaker 2: I'm not sure that they are tolerant of it. Masade

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Speaker 2: does a lot of things that you and I don't

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Speaker 2: know about, and certainly Gutter and the GCC nations have

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Speaker 2: stepped up their identity procedures and their immigration procedures or

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Speaker 2: ability to move around in these GCC nations. I do

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Speaker 2: a lot of business over in UAE. They know who

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Speaker 2: you are, where you are pretty much all the time.

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Speaker 2: And so what I have thought through is, even as

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Speaker 2: a fiction novelist, thinking about next plots and that kind

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Speaker 2: of thing, the how do you get to these guys

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Speaker 2: when you've got every point of entry sealed up with

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Speaker 2: facial recognition and eye scanners and cell phone trackers. It's

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Speaker 2: a different era today for spies and operatives, and so

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Speaker 2: I don't know that there's so much tolerating it as

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Speaker 2: trying to figure it out.

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Speaker 1: One of the other side challenges has been the rise

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Speaker 1: of the Hoothis as a forced trying to cut off shipping,

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Speaker 1: and I was very struck apparently in the Houthis emerged

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Speaker 1: as part of a civil war in Yemen and are

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Speaker 1: funded largely by Iram. But the Saudis and the UAE

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Speaker 1: had actually flown something like twenty three thousand missions against

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Speaker 1: the Huthis before the most recent campaign, and then we

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Speaker 1: look at the US in Britain and we fly maybe

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Speaker 1: two hundred missions. Now, why would you think that a

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Speaker 1: group which had survived twenty three thousand bombing runs, was

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Speaker 1: suddenly going to be intimidated. Of course, they clearly have

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Speaker 1: not been intimidated. They continue to be a threat, and

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Speaker 1: we continue to have no strategy for dealing with them.

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Speaker 2: Right, Well, that's the key. There is no strategy. There

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Speaker 2: is no vision. Remember the President Trump had a vision

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Speaker 2: for unifying the Middle East through economic ties, and as

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Speaker 2: a businessman, he understood that if you get economies working together,

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Speaker 2: then the ship will right itself and a lot of

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Speaker 2: the hatred will tend to have a way. The Biden

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Speaker 2: administration has been just the opposite and focused on division,

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Speaker 2: focused on appeasing Iran. There's no real unifying vision for

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Speaker 2: the Middle East. You can't just leave it to its

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Speaker 2: own design. So these pen prick responses, and they are responses.

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Speaker 2: There's no strategy. There are pen pick responses that really

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Speaker 2: do nothing to alter the situation. Except in Bolden. The

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Speaker 2: Huti's to know, Okay, the big Americans attacked us, We're

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Speaker 2: still here, so let's just keep doing what we're doing.

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Speaker 2: We're getting paid well by the Iranians to do it.

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Speaker 2: This is our mission in life, is the disrupt trade

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Speaker 2: through the horn of Africa and surrounding areas.

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Speaker 1: It's kind of ironic that the region which looked under

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Speaker 1: Trump like it really was moving towards a dramatically better future.

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Speaker 1: And I think there was actually a speech about a

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Speaker 1: week before October seventh, I think Jake Sullowan gave a

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Speaker 1: speech saying how the Middle East had now become calm,

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Speaker 1: it was now safe, it was now stable. And a

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Speaker 1: week later, of course, it all blew up the most

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Speaker 1: horrible terrorist attack of recent times. But if you're in Israeli,

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Speaker 1: you have the hu Tha sort of to the south east,

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Speaker 1: you have Hamash Drew south of you, you have Hesbalah

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Speaker 1: north of you, you have a sort of broken Syria

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Speaker 1: to your east, and then you have looming over everything,

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Speaker 1: the continuing effort by the Iranians, who are the chief

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Speaker 1: funders of terrorism, and who are working to build nuclear capability,

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Speaker 1: and who proved the other day that they could fire

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Speaker 1: an amazing number of missiles and drones in a coordinated strike.

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Speaker 1: And I think we probably overestimate how successful our defense

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Speaker 1: was and underestimate how much the Iranians learn from that

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Speaker 1: trial run. But when you think of it that way,

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Speaker 1: and you think of the kaleidoscope around Israel. What are

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Speaker 1: there strategic choices of survival? Whis coming after the Holocaust

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Speaker 1: and everything of modern times. Survival has to be their

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Speaker 1: number one goal.

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Speaker 2: Right. If Israel is not a safe place for Jewish people,

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Speaker 2: then nowhere is safe for Jewish people. It's not only

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Speaker 2: physically true, but symbolically true universally around the globe. Netnya

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Speaker 2: who has to make sure that Israel is a safe

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Speaker 2: place for Jewish people. The thing I would add to

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Speaker 2: your regional perspective there, which was I think very well done,

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Speaker 2: is you have a waffling West, as we've talked about

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Speaker 2: with the Biden administration, and we have the EU and

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Speaker 2: this extremist Islamist influence that has a grip on the West.

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Speaker 2: From Netanyahu's perspective, he's looking at this not only do

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Speaker 2: I have sort of east, south and just north of

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Speaker 2: me operationally, but strategically I'm surrounding. If I don't have

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Speaker 2: good allies, it really all up to me, is what

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Speaker 2: he's I'm sure thinking. And the thing that has impressed

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Speaker 2: me the most about the IDF and the Ministry of

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Speaker 2: Defense there that I worked very very closely with when

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Speaker 2: we were doing the Abraham A. Courts to make sure

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Speaker 2: that we were not negating Israel's key advantages. They very

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Speaker 2: much know that they are alone in this fight, and

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Speaker 2: they very much know that they have to be capable

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Speaker 2: of defending themselves one percent of the time with zero support.

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Speaker 2: Any support is welcome from Western nations, but I think

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Speaker 2: that they go into everything saying, we got this, we

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Speaker 2: can do it, We're trained to do it. And by

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Speaker 2: the way, we have some capabilities that some of these

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Speaker 2: other countries don't have.

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Speaker 1: And I think they showed some of that with their

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Speaker 1: air strike back against Iran way of saying, remember, you know,

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Speaker 1: we can come downtown if we want to.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and you won't even know about it until you

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Speaker 2: hear it on the news. Right.

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Speaker 1: Tom Friedman wrote a colin today that I'm actually writing

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Speaker 1: a response to, in which he said that the Israelis

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Speaker 1: have to choose between Rafa and Riod, that you can

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Speaker 1: either have an alliance with the Saudis or you can

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Speaker 1: go into Rafa. But if you go into Rafa, you're

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Speaker 1: going to create an environment such that you can't have

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Speaker 1: an alliance with the Saudis. It struck me that that

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Speaker 1: was exactly backwards and in fact, if the Israelis prove

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Speaker 1: that they are tough and they are determined, and they

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Speaker 1: are reliable, they become more valuable for the Saudis who

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Speaker 1: are dealing with a Biden administration in a Western Europe

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Speaker 1: that is neither tough nor reliable.

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Speaker 2: I agree with you, mister speaker. I have a lot

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Speaker 2: of respect for Friedman. You know, he's intellectual, but he's

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Speaker 2: also a liberal, right so I saw that, and I

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Speaker 2: think what he missed there is the air Persian fight,

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Speaker 2: the Shia Sunni that's just not going to evaporate. That's

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Speaker 2: not going to go away. And so if Israel is

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Speaker 2: able to stand up for itself and Riyad and Abu

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Speaker 2: Dhabi and some of these other countries they see the

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Speaker 2: threat that Iran has coming in with their Shea militia

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Speaker 2: groups into Iraq. They've almost got a land bridge all

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Speaker 2: the way into Jordan with the Shia. It went too

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Speaker 2: long ago. I ran attack Saudi Aramco with drones and rockets.

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Speaker 2: So the standing up to Iran and its proxies I

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Speaker 2: think plays well in KSA and UAE and some of

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Speaker 2: the other GCC nations and the starter fluid of the

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Speaker 2: Abraham Accords really did take hold and continues to take hold.

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Speaker 2: As I see in my visits to the region over there,

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Speaker 2: people want to get back to that this is all

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Speaker 2: a distraction, intentional distraction from Iran to try to disrupt

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Speaker 2: the economic development between Israel and some of the larger

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Speaker 2: GCC nations.

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Speaker 1: What do you make of the rise of pro Hamas,

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Speaker 1: anti Israel and anti Semitic activity in the United States.

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Speaker 1: We're talking the day after there was a huge effort

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Speaker 1: to disrupt a Metropolitan Museum gala. There's all the things

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Speaker 1: going on on campuses. I suspect that the Democratic Convention

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Speaker 1: in Chicago this August is going to be a huge

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Speaker 1: challenge in crowd control. But what do you make of

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Speaker 1: the scale of nationwide activities that this sort of exploded.

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Speaker 2: I think several years are decades ago, Islamic extremists took

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Speaker 2: a long view on how to under in the West,

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Speaker 2: and I think we're seeing all of that bubble up now,

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Speaker 2: whether it's through institutions like education or politics. The progressive

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Speaker 2: left is very much in bid with the Marxist Islamist ideology.

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Speaker 2: I was a superintendent of one of the largest school

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Speaker 2: systems in the country, public school systems K through twelve

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Speaker 2: and I left that in twenty twelve, and twelve years later,

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Speaker 2: I didn't see any of this. Yeah, there was liberal

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Speaker 2: influence and all of that, but the momentum that this

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Speaker 2: Marxist Islamic ideology has taken has really accelerated. I think

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Speaker 2: social media is playing a factor in it. But it's

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Speaker 2: almost like seeds haven't been planted for thirty years and

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Speaker 2: now all of a sudden, they've been watered and fertilized,

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Speaker 2: and now they're sprouting and growing fast. And it's a

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Speaker 2: real issue because the Biden administration, in my mind, they

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Speaker 2: don't have we have a unifying vision for the country.

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Speaker 2: What they found. I believe my perspective is that the

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Speaker 2: more divided we are, the better chance they have of

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Speaker 2: maintaining power. Which is why I think you hear Biden's

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Speaker 2: rhetoric be so divisive, particularly against the former president and

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Speaker 2: the people who support him, and then all of the

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Speaker 2: gender ideology and that kind of thing. I think that

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Speaker 2: if the Biden administration sees that if we hate each other,

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Speaker 2: they can parley that into political power. I think we've

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Speaker 2: got willing accomplices, and I think we have a grand

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Speaker 2: strategy from the center of Islamic extremism in Iran.

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Speaker 1: We just did a podcast where we took Reagan's comments

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Speaker 1: as governor when he dealt with students at Berkeley, and

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Speaker 1: he was very tough Ulternately, they sent in the National Guard,

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Speaker 1: and he was determined to regain control of the university.

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Speaker 1: And you look at Reagan's attitude, then you look at

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Speaker 1: a place like Columbia and you just wonder, these people

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Speaker 1: are totally out of touch with the real world. It's astonishing.

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Speaker 2: Go back to the week or two after the October

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Speaker 2: seventh when Harvard president the other presidents were called in

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Speaker 2: front of Congress and they didn't condemn the hate speech

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Speaker 2: that was happening, the anti Israeli speech, anti Jew speech

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Speaker 2: that was happening. And so they've made their own bid

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Speaker 2: here right, And here it is May seven months later,

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Speaker 2: almost to the day, and we have this uprising. And

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Speaker 2: I think it's very different than the Vietnam era protests

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Speaker 2: that was domestic internal policy about a war that the

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Speaker 2: United States was directly engaged in overseas that you know,

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Speaker 2: you had legitimate arguments on both sides. You know, you

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Speaker 2: stop communism or it's not going to stop whatever here.

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Speaker 2: What you have is an end fluence and information operation

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Speaker 2: that has stoked anger and very gullible in my opinion.

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Speaker 2: People young students that have paid organizers come in and

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Speaker 2: take them to these rallies and campsites on these universities,

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Speaker 2: and they're told what to do, and it's all an

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Speaker 2: external operation. It's not all that organic as the Vietnam

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Speaker 2: era one seem to be from my perspective.

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Speaker 1: Well, listen, I really want to thank you for bringing

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Speaker 1: your military experience and your vast knowledge to share with

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Speaker 1: us about what's going on. I want to thank you

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Speaker 1: for joining us, and I want to mention to our

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Speaker 1: listeners that your latest book, which is out now, the

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Speaker 1: Faalanx Code Garrett Sinclair novel is available on Amazon and

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Speaker 1: in bookstores everywhere, and we'll be on our show page.

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Speaker 1: So thank you very very much.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, mister speaker. Always appreciate being it. I have

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Speaker 2: a conversation with.

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Speaker 1: Thank you to my guest, Brigadier General Anthony Tata. You

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Speaker 1: can learn more about Israel's invasion of Rapha on our

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Speaker 1: show page at nutsworld dot com. Newtsworld is produced by

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Speaker 1: Ginger Street sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive producer is Guernsey Sloan.

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Speaker 1: Our researcher is Rachel Peterson. The artwork for the show

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Speaker 1: was created by Steve Penley. Special thanks to the team

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Speaker 1: at Gingrishtree sixty. If you've been enjoying Newtsworld, I hope

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Speaker 1: learn what it's all about. Right now, listeners of Newtsworld

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Speaker 1: consign up for my three free weekly columns at Gingishtree

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Speaker 1: sixty dot com slash newsletter. I'm Newt Gingrich. This is Newtsworld.