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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from how Stuff

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Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hey, you welcome to Stuff to Blow

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Speaker 1: your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Julie Tuglas.

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Speaker 1: And to keep things off here, we're gonna respond to

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Speaker 1: a little bit of a listener mail, uh, because the

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Speaker 1: entire episode kind of flows from that listening man. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I believe that we had a couple of listening emails

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Speaker 1: that stemmed from an episode that we did on um

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Speaker 1: kids who were psychotic um or the ability to actually

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Speaker 1: identify children who might be sociopathic. Yeah, And I mentioned

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Speaker 1: in passing it's like, oh, personhood, we could do that, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: because you can talk about person who We talked about corporations,

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Speaker 1: and we talked about a film that dealt with actually

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Speaker 1: running corporations through this this test of this uh sociopathic

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Speaker 1: test and finding out that corporations actually fit the bill there. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that if you if corporations were pool and you psychoanalyze them,

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Speaker 1: your results would be kind of frightening. So we thought, well, heck,

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Speaker 1: why not do a podcast on personhood and get to

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Speaker 1: the bottom of this topic. Well, personhood is a deep thing.

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Speaker 1: To get to the bottom of a kind of bottomless

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Speaker 1: in a way. So, but we're certainly going to do

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Speaker 1: our best to to explore the topic and h and

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Speaker 1: raise questions in your mind about what it really means. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and uh and particulo. I wanted to call out listener

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Speaker 1: Kelly B. She sent to us in emails as well

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Speaker 1: as did other people. But she she let us know

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Speaker 1: that it struck her interest personhood because she just finished

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Speaker 1: a philosophy class on bioethics and they talked about personhood

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Speaker 1: in ways she said she never imagined were possible, and

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Speaker 1: she usually even shared her class materials with us. Was

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Speaker 1: it was really nice, um and and very inspiring to

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Speaker 1: talk about this. Cool. So personhood, What is a person?

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Speaker 1: This is um? What constitutes a person? This is rich

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Speaker 1: philosophical ground. There are many definitions, there's there's a great

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Speaker 1: deal of debate. Debate has raged on this in philosophic

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Speaker 1: circles for centuries. Uh, we're not going to nail down

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Speaker 1: a precise definition in this episode. So so you can

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Speaker 1: expect to the philosophical questions to continue. But but there

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Speaker 1: are some basic ideas that we're gonna run through about

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Speaker 1: what a person is. UM. Some definitions really center in

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Speaker 1: on the idea that that the person in this case

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Speaker 1: has strong moral rights UH and is deserving of legal protection. UM.

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Speaker 1: Other definitions focus in on the idea that this quote

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Speaker 1: unquote person has higher moral status than other living things

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Speaker 1: and and and. One of the the more kind of

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Speaker 1: succinct definitions comes from philosopher Mary Ann Warren, who lays

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Speaker 1: out five different UM bullet points for personhood. She says,

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Speaker 1: one consciousness okay, uh, and in particular, the capacity to

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Speaker 1: feel pain. So is this quote unquote person and I'm

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Speaker 1: not gonna stay quote unquote person every time? I person,

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Speaker 1: So don't worry. But but is this person capable of

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Speaker 1: feeling pain? Are the conscious of of what's happening around

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Speaker 1: them and their own pain? Number two reasoning the developed

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Speaker 1: capacity to solve new and relatively complex problems. Is it

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Speaker 1: figuring out how the world around it works? Stapler Uh

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Speaker 1: does not have reasoning at its UH at its disposal.

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Speaker 1: For instance, UM number three self motivated activity UH is

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Speaker 1: that doing stuff independent of of either genetic or direct

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Speaker 1: external control. Does it have a capacity to communicate UM

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Speaker 1: by whatever means are adequate for that particular person? And

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Speaker 1: UH is it? Uh? Is it also aware of self concepts.

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Speaker 1: You know, is it's self aware of itself? Does it

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Speaker 1: know that it knows something? Um, So these five classifications

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Speaker 1: are rather useful, but then they're also kind of problematic

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Speaker 1: as well, because, as we're discussing before we got into

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Speaker 1: the studio, like what happens with a person if you know,

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Speaker 1: someone sustains an injury and they lose the ability to

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Speaker 1: speak if they're unconscious. Like, now you're down to three

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Speaker 1: out of five? What does that mean? Are you three

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Speaker 1: fifths of a person? Are you? Or would the scale

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Speaker 1: really require that you at least hit three out of

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Speaker 1: five and if you drive down to two then that's it?

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Speaker 1: Or is it well? And there's all sorts of legal

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Speaker 1: ramifications here that we'll get into, But I did want

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Speaker 1: to go to the etymological roots here in terms of

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Speaker 1: legality and go back to the word person, which comes

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Speaker 1: from Latin persona, which means mask or to act apart

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Speaker 1: um person. This idea of a person really sort of

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Speaker 1: became much more nuanced in Roman society when it would

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Speaker 1: became attached to the notion of someone's identity and attus

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Speaker 1: as you mentioned, and then this evolved into the concept

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Speaker 1: of personhood, which is then a legal right not only

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Speaker 1: to your name, but to all the wealth that you

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Speaker 1: accumulate under that identity. Okay, So so in its origin,

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Speaker 1: it's really more of an idea about public perception of me,

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Speaker 1: public perception, public wealth, and rights. Right. I mean, if

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Speaker 1: you're a person, you have specific rights, and it's it's

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Speaker 1: crazy to say that, but at one time in history,

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Speaker 1: some people were not considered a person, right, and and

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Speaker 1: they didn't have rights. And I'm talking specifically about the

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Speaker 1: fourteenth Amendment, which was a Reconstruction era amendment meant to

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Speaker 1: bolster the effects of the Civil Rights Act past in

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Speaker 1: eighteen sixty six, and it said that state and federal

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Speaker 1: citizenship for all persons, regardless of race, both born or

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Speaker 1: naturalized United States, was reaffirmed. No state would be allowed

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Speaker 1: to abridge the privileges and immunities of citizen, no person

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Speaker 1: was allowed to be deprived of life, liberty, or property

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Speaker 1: without due process of law. And for the fourth condition,

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Speaker 1: no person could be denied equal protection of the laws.

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Speaker 1: So really what you're seeing here is um this concept,

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Speaker 1: this consciousness of self, this abstract really sort of coming

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Speaker 1: into concrete terms in terms of material possession or even

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Speaker 1: just trying to navigate the world. And it's interestingly to

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Speaker 1: like you said, when you look back in time, you

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Speaker 1: can definitely find plenty of cases where not everyone was

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Speaker 1: really afforded the same level of personhood as the other

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Speaker 1: humans around them, certainly a like like just in the

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Speaker 1: city American South, you know, in the relatively recent history,

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Speaker 1: a man had more rights than a woman, and the

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Speaker 1: man had more rights than the slaves that he owned,

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Speaker 1: to say nothing of animals and and and uh, and

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Speaker 1: you know corporations and what have you. Then you have

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Speaker 1: you have shamanistic religion, say you know, uh, you know

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Speaker 1: cultures and say the the Amazon or Siberia or and

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Speaker 1: also also Tibet's early bond religion was was animistic as well,

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Speaker 1: where animals have a kind of spiritual essence or or

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Speaker 1: there are other belief systems where even inanimate objects have

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Speaker 1: kind of a spirit and to a certain extent, you

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Speaker 1: could say they have a kind of limited personhood and

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Speaker 1: that these things are not mere objects, but there are

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Speaker 1: things that matter on a spiritual level. Um and uh.

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Speaker 1: And that changes the way that you interact with them,

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Speaker 1: not not to the point where one would say I'm

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Speaker 1: suing a cariboo this week, but to the extent well

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Speaker 1: because the cariboosessions, or maybe it would be the other

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Speaker 1: way around. The cariboo could not sue me, but it

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Speaker 1: would be a matter of when I kill a cariboo,

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Speaker 1: it maybe has a little more weight because that or

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Speaker 1: who means something in a larger sense. You know. What's

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Speaker 1: interesting too, is that there's some some I guess you

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Speaker 1: could say radical thought that if you wanted to drop

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Speaker 1: out of society, if you wanted to um, divorce yourself

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Speaker 1: from this notion of of material wealth and all those trappings,

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Speaker 1: that you would inhabit an animalistic like existence wherein you

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Speaker 1: don't have, you're not saddled with things or with this

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Speaker 1: idea of legality or rights. Yes, interesting, and that you've

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Speaker 1: mentioned that, and some of the definitions of personhood I

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Speaker 1: encountered really focused in on social aspects of personhood, and

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Speaker 1: and they even one even maybe argument that if you

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Speaker 1: removed all of one's social um not me know, the activity,

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Speaker 1: but just relationships in general, like a man alone on

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Speaker 1: a desert island becomes less of a person because he

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Speaker 1: has no interaction with real people. And then of course

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Speaker 1: then he applies personhood to evolve Lleyball and you got

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Speaker 1: you something. You're talking about Wilson. What's the name of

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Speaker 1: that movie again? Um? It was Tom Hanks is the Island,

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Speaker 1: Diane Island, The Island, Dude, the Island, Pure Cats Away, right,

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Speaker 1: I think so, Yeah, I just remember Wilson more than

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Speaker 1: that though, because that was really interesting because the Wilson

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Speaker 1: is the protection of the person. Um. What I wanted

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Speaker 1: to to mention here is that I think that all

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Speaker 1: these conditions, these five conditions that you talked about, consciousness

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Speaker 1: really seems to be the one that stands out the most,

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Speaker 1: this underpinning of what a person is or what personhood.

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Speaker 1: And that's great too, because it's like, all right, so

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Speaker 1: what makes a person? All right, they gotta have they

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Speaker 1: got to be conscious. And then you're like, all right, great,

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Speaker 1: well what's consciousness? And and then you fall down the

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Speaker 1: well because that's that's that that's the big one of

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Speaker 1: the big philosophical questions. What is human consciousness? I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's not only philosophical, neurological, it's well, it's a it's

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Speaker 1: it's an area that multiple fields continue to try and

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Speaker 1: figure out. I mean, it's also the domain of of spirituality.

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Speaker 1: And religion, like just trying to figure out what is

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Speaker 1: going on with the with inside this mind and this

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Speaker 1: this person that we think we are um like just

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Speaker 1: self personhood is just impossible to wrap our heads around. Well,

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Speaker 1: it turns out that Thomas Jefferson was really interested in

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Speaker 1: this idea of consciousness and personhood, and he translated philosopher

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Speaker 1: Detrestes writing on Personhood and Treatise on Political Economy, and

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Speaker 1: here's a quote from it. It says, now, this idea

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Speaker 1: of property can only be founded on the idea of personality.

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Speaker 1: For if an individual had not consciousness of his own existence,

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Speaker 1: distinct and separate from every other, he could possess nothing.

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Speaker 1: He could have nothing peculiar to himself. So again here

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Speaker 1: you see the legality of the issue really rising up

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Speaker 1: again with this idea of consciousness, which then gets into

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Speaker 1: the territory of as as Kelly B. Pointed out, something

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Speaker 1: you wouldn't normally think of living wills. Okay, because now

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Speaker 1: you have this idea of Okay, Uh, I have to

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Speaker 1: meet these conditions. Have to be conscious, I have to

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Speaker 1: be capable of rational thought, I have to be self aware,

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Speaker 1: I have to be capable of purposive behavior. And I

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Speaker 1: have to possess a sense of my own existence over time,

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Speaker 1: so my today's self and then my tomorrow self. And

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Speaker 1: so you do get into this whole area of Okay,

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Speaker 1: now my personhood is existing in different tenses and it

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Speaker 1: really does affect um this ability to govern your life

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Speaker 1: at later stages. Yeah, some of the definitions of person

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Speaker 1: who has been encountered to also mentioned um the idea

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Speaker 1: that there is something consistent over the course of a

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Speaker 1: life span for this person. Okay, so the ideas that

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Speaker 1: from from birth to death there is U. You know,

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Speaker 1: Julie may change, but there is a certain Julie nous

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Speaker 1: two this person that remains the same. But uh, but

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Speaker 1: then you that raises questions, well, what happens when Well,

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Speaker 1: first of all, even though the julianus may remain the same, Um,

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Speaker 1: Julie from a year ago and Julie from a year

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Speaker 1: a year from now are kind of two different people

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Speaker 1: and to varying degrees. And uh. And certainly you look

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Speaker 1: at cases where individuals have dementia or they've they've encountered

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Speaker 1: something even maybe even less severe that has significantly changed them.

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Speaker 1: How does personhood factor into that? You look at I

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Speaker 1: mean you encountered this. We're not you personally, but we

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Speaker 1: all encountered this in looking at the cases of of

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Speaker 1: convicted felons. You know, someone goes to jail for a

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Speaker 1: murder when they're you know, when they're eighteen, and then

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Speaker 1: when they're sixty years old, like they're they're a different person, right,

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Speaker 1: I mean there, I mean, I'm granted legal in an

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Speaker 1: actual and legal sense, they are the same person that

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Speaker 1: committed that crime in the past, but in another sense,

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Speaker 1: they are really not that person anymore. They're not an

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Speaker 1: eighteen year old who killed somebody. There this older person

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Speaker 1: who has who has had all these other life experiences

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Speaker 1: between two. I mean, you could get ever more complex.

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Speaker 1: Who really nailed down that personhood? Especially if you now

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Speaker 1: go back to a living will that was made in

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Speaker 1: a certain year of someone's life, and let's say that

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Speaker 1: they have experienced brain death or um some other circumstance

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Speaker 1: which has changed their lot in life. Now you have

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Speaker 1: to consider whether or not their their past self really

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Speaker 1: as it's um an agreeance with their now self their

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Speaker 1: present self. And to suss all of that the legality

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Speaker 1: out of that situation, which becomes really interesting. Um I

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Speaker 1: thought this would probably be a decent place to mention

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Speaker 1: something called personhood USA. This is a group uh behind

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Speaker 1: multiple multiple state level measures to define life as beginning

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Speaker 1: at conception um rather than than birth. And this is

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Speaker 1: this idea that personhood really happens with his I go, right, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean because ultimately, when you're talking about personhood, it

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Speaker 1: also becomes a question of when does it begin and

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Speaker 1: when does it end? Like when does it end? Like

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Speaker 1: does that you have to wait till the hardest stop

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Speaker 1: till the brain is dead, un till it's till the

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Speaker 1: body has decomposed. Is there a certain amount of legacy

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Speaker 1: personhood where it's like, all right, well the brain has died,

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Speaker 1: but the body still lives, so it's not really a

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Speaker 1: person anymore. But it was so we're gonna be cool

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Speaker 1: with it. And then in terms of birth, yeah, is

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Speaker 1: it is? It is a person? A person upon birth

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Speaker 1: does doesn't meet those conditions that we talked about, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: depending on you know, it comes down to the language

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Speaker 1: of it, like which definition are gonna throw out? If

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Speaker 1: you're gonna focus on consciousness, then you have to wait

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Speaker 1: between twenty and thirty two weeks uh into gestation and

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Speaker 1: that's when uh, cortical neurons become capable of firing in

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Speaker 1: ways that make consciousness possible. Okay, Um, And then you know, culturally,

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Speaker 1: you've you you see case especially in the past, where

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Speaker 1: children had limited levels of personhood because on a you know,

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Speaker 1: up until a certain age that was not guaranteed that

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Speaker 1: they were going to really survive. So to what extent

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Speaker 1: where the parents willing to invest in that child, so

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Speaker 1: you might have personhood might not kick in until like

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Speaker 1: age one. Um. And then uh, and then you've you've

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Speaker 1: seen you know, as far as arguments about does it

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Speaker 1: begin upon conception? Does it just life begin ejaculation? You know,

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Speaker 1: are are dry humps people? I don't know? Yeah, No,

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Speaker 1: I mean it's very It's interesting because it has this

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Speaker 1: idea of personhood USA of this group. Um. If if

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Speaker 1: they were to um have legislation past as they are proposing,

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Speaker 1: you're basically saying that they would you know, outlaw abortion

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Speaker 1: at any point in a pregnant see for any reason

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Speaker 1: and potentially ban the use of in vitro fertilization and

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Speaker 1: many types of contraception. So even IVF this technology under

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Speaker 1: under these um conditions of parenthood USA or parenthood personhood

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Speaker 1: USA uh would not be in use anymore. So the

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Speaker 1: reason I bring this up is because personhood isn't just

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Speaker 1: uh let's define you know, the self and all the

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Speaker 1: belongings that we have. It extends for for uh more

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Speaker 1: into these other realms of existence. Um and as you say,

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Speaker 1: birth and death. All right, well we're gonna take a

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Speaker 1: quick break here, and when we come back, we will

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Speaker 1: drive forward into discussions of corporations as people, um, artificial

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Speaker 1: intelligence as people, animals as people, um, and maybe even

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Speaker 1: people as people. We'll see, we'll see how it goes. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and you might even get admit ramund question. All right,

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Speaker 1: we're back. Well, you you bettered everyone up with mention

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Speaker 1: of it, So go ahead give us that Mint Romney

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Speaker 1: impersonation that that is so central to the discussion here.

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Speaker 1: Corporations are people, my friend? No, that was good. That

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Speaker 1: was good. That was good. That was not a sound

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Speaker 1: clip that was duly doing. Yeah, yeah, that wasnt. Romney's

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Speaker 1: not here with us. Um why do we rom that up? Well,

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Speaker 1: it's funny and it's topical because on one hand it's

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Speaker 1: um ntt Romney does have a lot of money and

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Speaker 1: at times comes off a little robotic. So it's it's

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Speaker 1: easy to have a lot of fun with the idea

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Speaker 1: of corporations as people because we're also talking about the

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Speaker 1: ais as people as well. But but yeah, it's important

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Speaker 1: because you get into this, uh, this idea of attributing

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Speaker 1: personhood do things that are not really people. Um. No

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Speaker 1: matter where you are on the political side of the discussion,

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Speaker 1: there's no denying that a corporation cannot be hit by

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Speaker 1: a bus. Um, a corporation, uh cannot go swimming in

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Speaker 1: a pool, well certainly not a small pool. Um. It's

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Speaker 1: it's a rather different thing than a human being, and

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Speaker 1: yet we have attributed it a large amount of personhood

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Speaker 1: status when it comes to uh the law. Metaphysical personhood

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Speaker 1: is what we're talking about. And um, what happened Basically

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Speaker 1: you can kind of look at the evolution of corporate

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Speaker 1: personhood in this way. Uh. You had the Santa clar

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Speaker 1: versus Southern Pacific around the turn of the century case,

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Speaker 1: and this really helped define the personhood of corporations in

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Speaker 1: terms of the fourteenth Amendment. So basically what lawyers did

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Speaker 1: as they said, you know, we we want um, you know,

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Speaker 1: we want corporations to be able to have certain rights

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Speaker 1: that humans do. Is there a loophole here? And essentially

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Speaker 1: the fourteenth Amendment was this loophole. So this, UH, this

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Speaker 1: gave that this case actually gave corporation a modicum at

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Speaker 1: that time of personhood rights. So when we're talking about rights,

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Speaker 1: we're talking about UM rights to sue and be sued,

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Speaker 1: vote and exercise free speech. So it was limited at

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Speaker 1: that time. And particularly if you think back to Roosevelt

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Speaker 1: and about nineteen o seven or so, there were further limitations,

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Speaker 1: particularly with campaign money. Okay, so Roosevelt said, there are

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Speaker 1: limitations here. You can't just go around giving corporations. You

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Speaker 1: can't give campaign money to two candidates that they like

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Speaker 1: in swing votes. Essentially, that would be crazy. Although in

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Speaker 1: two thousand and ten the decision was made by the

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Speaker 1: Supreme Court to essentially repeal about a hundred years worth

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Speaker 1: of legislation at least when it comes to that, and

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Speaker 1: UH is free speech. Corporations are people and money is

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Speaker 1: the thing that corporations speak with. So corporially which now

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Speaker 1: can UM can use their money to advance a political candidate,

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Speaker 1: although they cannot give it directly to that candidate or

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Speaker 1: to that campaign, but they can put up one million billboards,

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Speaker 1: or they can air commercials or or any other way

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Speaker 1: of trying to support that candidate. UM. I can help

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Speaker 1: but think when I'm thinking of of corporations as people,

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Speaker 1: I can't help but think of and and the idea

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Speaker 1: that we are giving personhood to something that does not

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Speaker 1: really exists. I keep thinking of tulpas, which are in

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Speaker 1: the like Tibetan mysticism. Is this uh this uh, this

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Speaker 1: thought form. It's the idea where you get three people

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Speaker 1: in a room together and they both all three of

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Speaker 1: them really believe in um in something. If they all

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Speaker 1: really believe, say in a woman with fiery red hair,

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Speaker 1: and then that then that that tulpa is born out

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Speaker 1: of their thoughts. They think it, and they make that

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Speaker 1: that that vision manifest and reality. And so especially if

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Speaker 1: you look to u to ancient Roman law, you get

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Speaker 1: this idea of of a juristic person. This is a

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Speaker 1: single non human entity that legally represented a group of

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Speaker 1: many people. So money, money comes out of me, it

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Speaker 1: comes out of the other two people in the room. Uh,

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Speaker 1: and we use that money to breathe life into this toolpa,

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Speaker 1: into this non real thing. Our money makes it real.

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Speaker 1: Our money is an extension of us, and this thought

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Speaker 1: form is an extension of that money. So the corporation

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Speaker 1: flows out of that and uh and from there. I

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Speaker 1: found it interesting that Thomas Jefferson, along before the fourteenth Amendment,

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Speaker 1: he had he had apparently suggested explicit language to govern

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Speaker 1: corporate entities in the Constitution. For instance, he had one

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Speaker 1: of the stipulations that he had brought up was requiring

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Speaker 1: maximum lifespans for corporations. So, yeah, explain the maximum life

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Speaker 1: spans a bit more. Well, my understanding of this, it

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Speaker 1: would be like those three individuals in the room that

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Speaker 1: believe in the fiery red woman and and create her

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Speaker 1: out of their thoughts. If they die, then then the

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Speaker 1: top of the thought form can't exist anymore. It was

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Speaker 1: it was made of their thoughts, and if they cannot

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Speaker 1: think those thoughts and it is gone. Um. Likewise, a

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Speaker 1: corporation is made out of money coming from people. You know,

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Speaker 1: those people were no longer there, then the money cannot

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Speaker 1: sustain it and it must die. So in this scenario,

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Speaker 1: be sort of like the stockholders. So this this this

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Speaker 1: uh person who would be attached to the stockholders lifespan

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Speaker 1: as opposed to what is new as opposed to this

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Speaker 1: this situation now where yea, a corporation is a maybe

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Speaker 1: a person on on this legal level, but it's also

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Speaker 1: a person that cannot die. I mean it cannot die

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Speaker 1: in the sense that you and I can die, uh

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Speaker 1: and it and it also can't say, be put in

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Speaker 1: prison if it does something wrong. Well, and I think

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Speaker 1: that the criticism that comes up here is that when

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Speaker 1: you have a really powerful UM corporation with a ton

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Speaker 1: of capitalist spend that UM that is sort of immortal UM,

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Speaker 1: then then it's not a level of playing field. They

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Speaker 1: are not a person they even though they have the

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Speaker 1: rights of a human. And so that I think is

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Speaker 1: what people take issue with when it comes to politics,

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Speaker 1: especially because then you have something that's sort of like

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Speaker 1: a superhuman um, you know, because you know, each corporation

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Speaker 1: billions and billions of dollars, right um and and uh

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Speaker 1: and trying to um influence the way that the politics

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Speaker 1: are played out in the public arena. Yeah. Unif situation

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Speaker 1: where's like, hey, this this person that you guys created

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Speaker 1: or that your grandfathers created just uh, I don't know,

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Speaker 1: destroyed a town or or landed on my house or

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Speaker 1: you know or or did some sort of evil in

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Speaker 1: the world, and uh, it's yeah, yeah, I mean with

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Speaker 1: the golem, is you know, very very into that idea

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Speaker 1: of the topa of the thought form, a non living

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Speaker 1: thing that is given life u through magic or in

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Speaker 1: this case finance and law. And it doesn't necessarily have

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Speaker 1: critical thought. It is only the column is only tied

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Speaker 1: to what has it has been told to do? Right,

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Speaker 1: It's not necessarily thinking is is this the best situation

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Speaker 1: here for everybody involved? Well? You here too. You see

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Speaker 1: discussions about various corporations and the discussions of the values

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Speaker 1: within that company, and and there's a lot of discussion about, well,

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Speaker 1: what are the values that are put in place when

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Speaker 1: that company is created? And while those values might not

404
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Speaker 1: necessarily stand the test of time as that corporation grows

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Speaker 1: and adapts over time, it's still those a lot of

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Speaker 1: times that those values are still kind of in its

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Speaker 1: DNA um like uh like not to toot our own horn,

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Speaker 1: but you know, we worked for Discovery Communications, and I

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Speaker 1: feel like there are some there are some good values, uh,

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Speaker 1: in the DNA of that company. And I'll talk to

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Speaker 1: other people who work for companies that will remain nameless,

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Speaker 1: that that that maybe don't have as good of d

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Speaker 1: n A going on, that like that some of some

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Speaker 1: values were missing in the the the origins of that

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Speaker 1: particular company. Okay, so I mean that's the programming, if

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Speaker 1: you will. Yeah, that's what I was thinking, is that

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Speaker 1: it's almost like programming the code and and what do

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Speaker 1: you program there? Because again, the you know, the company

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Speaker 1: is going to outlive all of us, so what does

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Speaker 1: it look like several generations down the line. All right, Well,

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Speaker 1: look at this point in the discussion, we really need

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Speaker 1: to take a break and we're we're adding this in

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Speaker 1: uh post recording. We just uh we just talked about

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Speaker 1: personhood quite a bit in this recording session, and we

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Speaker 1: really decided we need to split it up into two

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Speaker 1: episodes to do with justice. Yeah, definitely, we had to

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Speaker 1: have this foundation in order to talk about the next section,

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Speaker 1: which will be about robots and animals. Um So at

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