WEBVTT - Bob Pittman 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:03.840 Welcome to Ruthie's Table four, a production of iHeartRadio and 0:00:03.920 --> 0:00:05.400 Adamized Studios. 0:00:08.960 --> 0:00:11.720 Today we're here at the can Lion Festival and its 0:00:11.800 --> 0:00:14.200 fopped the River Cafe Kitchen for a galley on the 0:00:14.200 --> 0:00:17.279 most beautiful boat in the harbor, which I'm happy to 0:00:17.320 --> 0:00:21.759 say is safely tied up. Bob Pittman is a captain 0:00:22.079 --> 0:00:24.360 sort of, as he is of so many great things. 0:00:24.760 --> 0:00:28.040 He created MTV, which changed the way we listened to music, 0:00:28.400 --> 0:00:31.720 and most recently, iHeartMedia, which changed the way we listen 0:00:32.120 --> 0:00:35.840 to everything else. Bob believes in stories. He's often said 0:00:35.880 --> 0:00:39.040 that everyone has one great story to tell. The first 0:00:39.040 --> 0:00:41.720 time we met, he told me some about growing up 0:00:41.720 --> 0:00:44.640 in Mississippi, the food his family cooked, and from an 0:00:44.640 --> 0:00:47.800 early age, his almost illegal passion for being a pilot. 0:00:48.360 --> 0:00:52.080 He spoke movingly and proudly about his father's brave commitment 0:00:52.479 --> 0:00:56.640 as an anti segregationist. In our short and recent friendship, 0:00:56.680 --> 0:00:59.720 I've learned from many about his generosity, his faith in 0:00:59.760 --> 0:01:03.800 new talent, and guess what else, his rigorous passion for 0:01:03.960 --> 0:01:08.880 producing Cassa Dragons tequila definitely my favorite. In the two 0:01:08.959 --> 0:01:11.840 years I've known him, I've heard nothing but admiration and 0:01:11.920 --> 0:01:19.560 love from everyone I've spoken to. I understand why. So 0:01:19.640 --> 0:01:23.720 you made this lemon ice cream, and I wonder whether 0:01:23.760 --> 0:01:24.800 you'd like to read the recipe. 0:01:24.840 --> 0:01:26.320 Of course, I'd like to read the roceperes I like 0:01:26.360 --> 0:01:28.960 it because the headline says Bob Pittman lemon ice cream, 0:01:29.400 --> 0:01:31.760 the only time I've ever my name associated with it 0:01:31.800 --> 0:01:35.440 with food. I like that. So the ingredients are finely 0:01:35.480 --> 0:01:41.600 grated zest of one and juice of three lemons makes sense, 0:01:42.160 --> 0:01:45.800 a cup of sugar, a half teaspoon of sea salt, 0:01:46.280 --> 0:01:49.320 two cups of double cream. It serves six, and you 0:01:49.360 --> 0:01:52.320 put it in a bowl. Mix in the lemon, zest 0:01:52.360 --> 0:01:57.040 and juice, sugar and salt with a spoon slowly, I'm 0:01:57.040 --> 0:02:00.360 sure slowly is important. Add the cream carefully, mixing with 0:02:00.360 --> 0:02:04.120 a spoon, and it will immediately thicken. You didn't put 0:02:04.160 --> 0:02:06.760 this is really simple stuff. This is absolutely my kind 0:02:06.760 --> 0:02:10.200 of recipe. You then put the ice cream mixture in 0:02:10.360 --> 0:02:12.680 the freezer and freeze it for two hours. It hardens 0:02:12.760 --> 0:02:15.320 up and then you have magic Try it. 0:02:15.440 --> 0:02:19.840 Okay, So the thing about this ice cream is that 0:02:19.880 --> 0:02:21.240 you don't have to churn it. 0:02:22.320 --> 0:02:25.000 By the way, as a kid growing up in Mississippi. 0:02:25.800 --> 0:02:28.080 My grandmother had a churn and would make ice cream. 0:02:28.800 --> 0:02:32.360 And I loved the ice cream. I hated churning it. 0:02:32.639 --> 0:02:34.720 This was before the days of electric stuff. This is 0:02:34.720 --> 0:02:37.399 you turn it and turn it. When it got really hard, 0:02:37.400 --> 0:02:39.760 I call my older brother over. You turn it some 0:02:40.400 --> 0:02:43.560 and then we'd sort of put it away and we'd 0:02:43.560 --> 0:02:44.680 have the ice cream. 0:02:44.760 --> 0:02:47.000 So tell me about the churner. So we had the 0:02:47.040 --> 0:02:47.600 ice in the. 0:02:48.080 --> 0:02:51.840 Like a wooden tub, and it had a ice in it, 0:02:51.880 --> 0:02:54.840 and you put this metal container down that would hook 0:02:54.880 --> 0:02:57.919 onto the crank on top, put kosher salt all over, 0:02:57.919 --> 0:03:01.280 a big salt, just covered the ice with that, and 0:03:01.320 --> 0:03:03.800 you churn and churn and churn until it hardened up. 0:03:04.440 --> 0:03:06.880 And that was your grandmother, my grandmother. Did your mother 0:03:06.960 --> 0:03:09.360 then discover that you could actually put a plug in 0:03:09.560 --> 0:03:12.160 and today. 0:03:11.480 --> 0:03:13.440 That and we were probably too poor to buy one, 0:03:13.520 --> 0:03:16.400 even if there was one for sale. But it was 0:03:16.440 --> 0:03:18.480 perfect with my grandmother, who, by the way, at the 0:03:18.480 --> 0:03:23.239 same time was making crab gumbo that we'd been catching 0:03:23.240 --> 0:03:25.920 the crabs all day. She was from the Orleans and 0:03:26.040 --> 0:03:30.240 had this spectacular gumbo recipe. Start cooking about nine. We'd 0:03:30.240 --> 0:03:32.280 throw the crabs in about five, the ice cream you'd 0:03:32.320 --> 0:03:35.119 be ready about then she'd put the towel over, take 0:03:35.120 --> 0:03:37.560 the thing off, packet with ice while we ate the gumbo, 0:03:37.600 --> 0:03:39.440 and then we could have the ice cream for dessert. 0:03:39.680 --> 0:03:41.720 This is just because a lot of people I talked 0:03:41.760 --> 0:03:44.920 to really talk about their grandmothers as much as their mother. 0:03:45.120 --> 0:03:47.600 So you started out by talking about your grandmother. So 0:03:47.640 --> 0:03:50.000 why don't we go back to that about growing up 0:03:50.360 --> 0:03:52.880 with your grandmother cooking for you. She lived in your house. 0:03:53.000 --> 0:03:55.680 No, No, we just visited my grandmother often. They had 0:03:55.720 --> 0:03:58.600 a little house on a little bay in Mississippi called 0:03:58.600 --> 0:04:01.480 Bay Saint Louis called it the Camp, and we'd go 0:04:01.560 --> 0:04:03.960 visit them at the camp. And when we went there, 0:04:04.000 --> 0:04:07.760 my grandmother was a proper Cajun cook, and we had 0:04:07.840 --> 0:04:12.320 all that fabulous Southern and Cajun stuff. My mother was 0:04:12.360 --> 0:04:15.360 from northern Mississippi, originally a farm girl, so hers was 0:04:15.400 --> 0:04:20.400 more hardy, like you know, crowder peas butter beans. Crowder 0:04:20.480 --> 0:04:22.839 pea is sort of like a black eyep a little 0:04:22.839 --> 0:04:25.120 firmer and sort of dark all over it supposed to 0:04:25.120 --> 0:04:27.800 one speck of darkness. And my brother and I, every 0:04:27.800 --> 0:04:30.120 time my mother would go visit her family and come 0:04:30.160 --> 0:04:33.880 back home. She'd bring with her bushels of peas and butterbeans, 0:04:34.279 --> 0:04:37.160 and my brother and I hated it because we had 0:04:37.200 --> 0:04:39.640 to shell them all so that she can then freeze 0:04:39.640 --> 0:04:42.520 them for the winter. That's you know, as a kid, 0:04:42.520 --> 0:04:44.039 you don't want to sit around doing that stuff. 0:04:44.040 --> 0:04:46.000 So we're only in a distance of how many miles 0:04:46.040 --> 0:04:47.080 between northern and. 0:04:47.040 --> 0:04:49.560 Southern Mississippi, I should probably five hour drive. 0:04:49.760 --> 0:04:51.880 Yeah, and yet the cooking was so different. 0:04:51.800 --> 0:04:54.320 Very different, very different. When you were down near Louisiana, 0:04:54.400 --> 0:04:56.960 it was very spicy. When you're in the middle of 0:04:56.960 --> 0:04:59.720 Mississippi and up north it's very bland by the time 0:04:59.760 --> 0:05:01.360 you get to the top of the state. And by 0:05:01.360 --> 0:05:04.440 the way, all through the state there's barbecue which has 0:05:04.480 --> 0:05:08.680 a red sauce but is very sweet, and you just 0:05:08.720 --> 0:05:11.440 sort of slow cook the stuff on steamers and so 0:05:11.520 --> 0:05:15.760 it just sort of melts and then you slather that 0:05:15.800 --> 0:05:18.320 stuff on until it really turns to candy, put in 0:05:18.360 --> 0:05:20.400 that smoker and just let it go and go. And 0:05:20.440 --> 0:05:24.080 it was yeah, up north, but on the south it 0:05:24.120 --> 0:05:26.919 was more fried food. We gig for flounders. You go 0:05:26.960 --> 0:05:29.200 out with a white lantern and you'd look for them 0:05:29.200 --> 0:05:31.400 in the water and you gig them and then you 0:05:31.400 --> 0:05:33.920 pull them up in the flounders like it's a stick 0:05:33.960 --> 0:05:36.200 with a nail on the end of it that just 0:05:36.240 --> 0:05:38.120 stick them so you can get them and you pick 0:05:38.160 --> 0:05:40.799 them up from that they sort of burrow into the sand. 0:05:40.839 --> 0:05:44.120 But there are flatfish like a soul. So we do that. 0:05:44.200 --> 0:05:47.160 But my again, my parents and my grandmother, you put 0:05:47.160 --> 0:05:50.240 them in cornmeal, although everything's putting cornmeal, and you're throw 0:05:50.240 --> 0:05:54.640 in the deep fryer and you have this spectacular fried fish. 0:05:54.800 --> 0:05:57.440 Everything's fried. I had an uncle who said, I like 0:05:57.480 --> 0:05:59.400 him anyway, you fix it as long as you fry 0:05:59.440 --> 0:06:03.640 at last. So I think that was a great indication 0:06:03.720 --> 0:06:04.520 of Southern cooking. 0:06:05.000 --> 0:06:09.520 And do you think that black culture also contributed to this. 0:06:10.000 --> 0:06:13.000 I know that's something going on right now about the 0:06:13.000 --> 0:06:16.479 black community feeling that a lot of the Cajun cooking 0:06:16.600 --> 0:06:20.240 or the cooking of the South amidst their culture. Do 0:06:20.279 --> 0:06:21.320 you think that or do well? 0:06:21.360 --> 0:06:24.159 I think the Southern cooking and the Black culture were 0:06:24.200 --> 0:06:27.760 completely intertwined. I mean it was sort of all of one. 0:06:27.880 --> 0:06:31.719 And I spent time in Chicago and I love the 0:06:31.760 --> 0:06:35.480 South Side of Chicago. Soul cooking is the cooking out 0:06:35.640 --> 0:06:38.440 I grew up with and always share that affection for 0:06:39.080 --> 0:06:41.960 My other favorite is fried okra, where you cut the 0:06:41.960 --> 0:06:45.480 okra up, have a cast iron skillet, get the really hot, 0:06:45.880 --> 0:06:48.200 roll around in some corn meal and throw it in 0:06:48.240 --> 0:06:51.200 there and by the time it comes out it's crispy. 0:06:51.640 --> 0:06:52.560 I like a popcorn. 0:06:52.960 --> 0:06:56.599 You said something about being too poor to afford a churner, 0:06:56.839 --> 0:07:00.480 perhaps for the ice cream. Tell me about life in 0:07:00.520 --> 0:07:02.120 the Pittman household. 0:07:02.360 --> 0:07:04.800 I grew up. I didn't know we were port My 0:07:04.960 --> 0:07:08.440 dad was very well educated. He had his undergrad from 0:07:08.680 --> 0:07:11.400 University of Southern Mississippi, had a graduate school at Emory 0:07:11.680 --> 0:07:14.360 in Atlanta. My mother was a college graduate, which is 0:07:14.360 --> 0:07:17.960 also unusual for two parents at that era. And the 0:07:17.960 --> 0:07:22.040 family really valued smarts. My dad was a Methodist minister, 0:07:22.520 --> 0:07:24.120 so the church gave us a house and give us 0:07:24.120 --> 0:07:26.320 a very nice house. So we had a nice house 0:07:26.360 --> 0:07:28.680 as if we have a lot of money, and they 0:07:28.720 --> 0:07:30.680 would let you. They would let the ministers join the 0:07:30.720 --> 0:07:32.680 country club. So even though they had no money, they 0:07:32.680 --> 0:07:33.960 didn't have to pay. But we could go to the 0:07:33.960 --> 0:07:36.160 country club as if we have money. And so we 0:07:36.280 --> 0:07:41.040 had a decent lifestyle but little money. And but you know, 0:07:41.080 --> 0:07:43.120 in those days, you didn't miss it and you didn't 0:07:43.160 --> 0:07:45.440 know and all that wasn't flaunted on TV. 0:07:45.800 --> 0:07:50.600 And what was it? What was Yeah? How many are you? 0:07:50.640 --> 0:07:54.280 I had one brother, and I had a magical upbringing 0:07:54.520 --> 0:07:56.640 that I didn't realize how magical it was till I 0:07:56.680 --> 0:07:59.920 became an adult. I never in my life saw my parents. 0:08:00.600 --> 0:08:02.760 My parents have disagreements, They go, well, I don't know 0:08:02.760 --> 0:08:04.760 if I agree with that, Well, I don't know, why 0:08:04.760 --> 0:08:06.600 do you think that? And they would go through it. 0:08:07.000 --> 0:08:10.400 In our household, you couldn't say hate. We never hated anybody. 0:08:10.480 --> 0:08:12.840 We didn't hate anything. So that was sort of the 0:08:12.880 --> 0:08:15.680 dirty word of the house. And when my mom passed away, 0:08:15.800 --> 0:08:17.840 one of my cousins said, you know, the worst thing 0:08:17.840 --> 0:08:20.040 I ever heard your mother say about somebody was I 0:08:20.080 --> 0:08:22.200 wonder why they want to be that way. So that 0:08:22.320 --> 0:08:24.640 was her way of saying, that's not her favorite person. 0:08:25.120 --> 0:08:28.880 But everything was met with sort of an understanding and 0:08:28.920 --> 0:08:32.840 a gentility which I truly appreciate. My brother and I 0:08:32.880 --> 0:08:36.000 often talk about we definitely won the parent lottery, and 0:08:36.200 --> 0:08:38.079 you know, oh, yes we'd have money. We didn't have 0:08:38.080 --> 0:08:40.440 a lot of things, but I'll trade all that for 0:08:40.520 --> 0:08:41.040 what we had. 0:08:40.960 --> 0:08:42.200 Did you and your brother aren't you? 0:08:43.280 --> 0:08:45.559 Of course there were kids. And by the way, I 0:08:45.600 --> 0:08:47.520 wish I could say I didn't argue in my household, 0:08:47.559 --> 0:08:49.640 because I don't have that. I don't know what. I 0:08:49.640 --> 0:08:52.800 don't know how my parents managed to pull that off, 0:08:52.840 --> 0:08:54.800 and I think I didn't appreciate it until I became 0:08:54.840 --> 0:08:55.320 an adult. 0:08:55.920 --> 0:08:58.640 This reminds me of when I talked to Valerie Biden, 0:08:58.679 --> 0:09:02.360 who's President biden sister, and she said she was brought 0:09:02.400 --> 0:09:06.640 up in a household of Irish Catholics in Delaware where 0:09:06.679 --> 0:09:09.560 there was no argument. You just were not allowed to 0:09:10.240 --> 0:09:13.839 argue with your brothers or your sisters. That in the house, 0:09:13.880 --> 0:09:16.320 it was that you were you know, you defended each other. 0:09:16.360 --> 0:09:19.280 And I wonder about that because you just see that 0:09:19.360 --> 0:09:21.240 as so much of our life. I don't know about 0:09:21.240 --> 0:09:24.240 your children, but disagreement is okay. You know, it is 0:09:24.320 --> 0:09:28.200 okay to disagree, It's okay to take your position. But 0:09:28.280 --> 0:09:30.880 it's something very beautiful as well about the idea that 0:09:31.000 --> 0:09:33.560 somehow there was peace and you were in the house. 0:09:33.800 --> 0:09:38.319 Also a difference between arguing and personalizing something. It's one 0:09:38.320 --> 0:09:41.160 thing to debate it. I believe that you believe that, 0:09:41.440 --> 0:09:43.839 and will I don't know why you believe that. Let's 0:09:43.840 --> 0:09:46.720 figure out as opposed to you're bad, you're an idiot, 0:09:47.200 --> 0:09:50.120 you don't care, you're evil, and you know, if you 0:09:50.240 --> 0:09:53.280 avoid personalizing it, I think you go so far because 0:09:53.280 --> 0:09:54.559 you can continue the conversation. 0:09:55.160 --> 0:09:58.080 Bettlheim said a great thing I remember as young parent. 0:09:58.120 --> 0:09:59.960 He said that you don't ever say to a child 0:10:00.440 --> 0:10:03.040 you are something. You say you are behaving. So you 0:10:03.080 --> 0:10:06.200 don't say you are selfish. You say you are behaving 0:10:06.240 --> 0:10:09.319 in a selfish way, you know, and that makes apparently. 0:10:09.040 --> 0:10:12.040 A selfish act, and then you usually say, but I 0:10:12.080 --> 0:10:16.080 know that's not you. There's also in a hopeful tone 0:10:16.160 --> 0:10:16.800 to the child. 0:10:16.880 --> 0:10:19.000 So what we aspired to, there's a great coatoon in 0:10:19.000 --> 0:10:20.880 the New Yorker which your mother says, I'm going to 0:10:20.880 --> 0:10:23.400 get very angry at you in a very quiet and 0:10:23.440 --> 0:10:26.600 controlled way, which is also maybe not that. But back 0:10:26.640 --> 0:10:28.679 to the food. So you said your mother worked. 0:10:29.200 --> 0:10:32.560 My mother worked as a school teacher for some of 0:10:32.600 --> 0:10:35.360 my childhood and then was stayed at home mom after that, 0:10:35.840 --> 0:10:39.680 and so she would cook and cooked and ate at home. Right. 0:10:40.080 --> 0:10:42.760 Usually it was a somewhat like meal coume in eggs, 0:10:43.320 --> 0:10:48.079 piece of meat, piece of fish, some peas, beans, rice 0:10:48.760 --> 0:10:52.040 and uh, sort of these wholesome eating and they would 0:10:52.040 --> 0:10:55.199 probably could be fried stuff. But we also eat stuff 0:10:55.240 --> 0:10:55.800 like squirrel. 0:10:56.760 --> 0:10:59.000 Would squirrel like I've never eaten squirrel. 0:10:58.720 --> 0:11:00.760 Well, squirrel. I always think it. You know, people say 0:11:00.800 --> 0:11:03.240 something tastes like chicken. I always think something tastes like squirrel. 0:11:03.280 --> 0:11:08.319 Squirrels my reference meat. I'm kidding, but it is, uh, 0:11:08.360 --> 0:11:11.600 but it you know, it's a it's a much leaner 0:11:11.640 --> 0:11:16.559 meat than anything you probably get that's domesticated. But I 0:11:16.640 --> 0:11:17.600 always liked squirrel of. 0:11:17.640 --> 0:11:20.559 This, like, would you hunt them? Would you go to 0:11:19.840 --> 0:11:21.320 the squirrel No? 0:11:21.320 --> 0:11:23.400 No, you know, I can't buy them at the grocery store. 0:11:23.440 --> 0:11:25.640 But either I'd hunt them or somebody would bring some 0:11:25.679 --> 0:11:29.000 squirrel by because they've been squirrel hunting and uh. And 0:11:29.080 --> 0:11:32.240 occasionally people bring by dove or quail and eat that 0:11:32.360 --> 0:11:37.040 as well. Yeah, quail and venison. Yeah, it was always 0:11:37.120 --> 0:11:39.640 somebody would get a deer every winter, and then the 0:11:39.920 --> 0:11:42.679 butcher it and everybody have some venison for the winner 0:11:43.200 --> 0:11:44.360 venison sausage. 0:11:45.240 --> 0:11:47.520 I grew up in upstate New York, and I still 0:11:47.600 --> 0:11:50.120 have memories of the deer on the front of the car. 0:11:50.360 --> 0:11:54.160 Even the deer being brought back from the hunting, you know, 0:11:54.520 --> 0:11:57.440 and then you watch Bambi and could never take it right. 0:11:57.640 --> 0:11:59.760 Well, you get the wild boars. They didn't look so nice. 0:11:59.800 --> 0:12:02.720 Yeah, did your parents ever take you to a restaurant? 0:12:03.120 --> 0:12:05.680 We did, but there were not great restaurants. And bo 0:12:05.800 --> 0:12:08.920 Cava Mississippi Holiday and on Sunday was probably the best 0:12:08.960 --> 0:12:12.760 restaurant in town. There were catfish cabins which were great. 0:12:12.800 --> 0:12:15.000 So you go out there on the river and you'd 0:12:15.000 --> 0:12:19.440 eat the filet of catfish and hush puppies and French 0:12:19.480 --> 0:12:25.400 fries and are a corn meal that's fried, No, that's 0:12:25.440 --> 0:12:28.320 corn dog with a hot dog in it. But think 0:12:28.360 --> 0:12:30.320 of that without the hot dog in it, Yeah, and 0:12:30.400 --> 0:12:32.480 without the stick, and you're getting pretty close to a 0:12:32.600 --> 0:12:35.000 hush puppy. So there were things like that. There's sort 0:12:35.000 --> 0:12:37.839 of specialty places, but there were no in my day. 0:12:37.880 --> 0:12:40.040 There was no fine dining, and if there was, my 0:12:40.120 --> 0:12:41.280 family would know about it. 0:12:41.480 --> 0:12:45.080 Yeah. Talking about your father and segregation, can you tell 0:12:45.120 --> 0:12:47.840 me about that. Presumably when you went to restaurants they 0:12:47.880 --> 0:12:50.520 were segregated. It was your school segregated. 0:12:50.840 --> 0:12:54.320 When I started school in Mississippi in nineteen fifty nine, 0:12:54.400 --> 0:12:57.360 it was completely segregated. There were white schools and black schools. 0:12:57.880 --> 0:13:02.480 There were colored only for water fountains and bathrooms, and 0:13:02.559 --> 0:13:07.199 white onlies completely separate. In the twelve years I went 0:13:07.240 --> 0:13:10.520 to school, everything happened, and by my senior year in 0:13:10.600 --> 0:13:13.600 high school, my graduating class was about fifty to fifty 0:13:13.640 --> 0:13:17.120 white black. So it all happened in my school years. 0:13:17.559 --> 0:13:21.000 And there were people like my dad who were very 0:13:21.200 --> 0:13:24.800 supportive of change and working hard for it. There were 0:13:24.840 --> 0:13:27.880 people who were absolute racist and didn't want it, and 0:13:27.920 --> 0:13:29.439 then there was a group of people in between that 0:13:29.520 --> 0:13:32.559 knew it was the right thing, but they just they 0:13:32.600 --> 0:13:36.160 wanted to come slowly. I was talking to Jesse Jackson once, 0:13:36.200 --> 0:13:39.760 and Jesse was saying that the biggest problem they had 0:13:39.880 --> 0:13:43.120 in the civil rights movement were not the racists, because 0:13:43.120 --> 0:13:44.679 they could sort of deal with them. It was the 0:13:44.679 --> 0:13:47.000 people who wanted to go slow. And that's sort of 0:13:47.080 --> 0:13:49.400 human nature, I'm sure. So there was not bad people. 0:13:49.440 --> 0:13:53.160 They weren't terrible people. They just they were liked want 0:13:53.160 --> 0:13:55.760 things to change, and so I think you had to 0:13:55.800 --> 0:13:59.480 sort of overcome that inertia. You didn't necessarily have to 0:13:59.480 --> 0:14:02.040 convince them not to be racist. You had to commence 0:14:02.040 --> 0:14:04.319 them to go ahead and make the changes and make 0:14:04.360 --> 0:14:07.400 them more dramatically than you expected to be. Initially, in 0:14:07.400 --> 0:14:11.320 Mississippi to break through segregation, they did freedom of choice, 0:14:11.320 --> 0:14:13.079 so you could choose which school you wanted. 0:14:12.920 --> 0:14:13.240 To go to. 0:14:13.840 --> 0:14:15.959 So we have maybe ten black kids at our school 0:14:16.000 --> 0:14:19.400 and maybe ten white kids at the black school. Hardly integrated. 0:14:19.640 --> 0:14:22.000 And it wasn't until the federal government basically said, look, 0:14:22.000 --> 0:14:24.000 you're going to have to bust kids or do whatever, 0:14:24.040 --> 0:14:25.920 but you're gonna have to mix the schools based on 0:14:26.000 --> 0:14:29.680 sort of the racial population of the area. And that's 0:14:29.680 --> 0:14:30.760 when the big change came. 0:14:31.480 --> 0:14:33.880 I mean, we're getting into another discussion, but that is 0:14:33.960 --> 0:14:36.280 the role of the federal government, wasn't it was saying, 0:14:36.560 --> 0:14:39.760 you know, we do you change hearts and minds first 0:14:40.320 --> 0:14:44.320 and then bring an integration or do you say we're 0:14:44.320 --> 0:14:47.280 doing this and you're going to have to change. 0:14:47.560 --> 0:14:49.040 I think, you know, and by the way, I don't 0:14:49.040 --> 0:14:52.440 think there was any looking back any other way. Probably 0:14:52.480 --> 0:14:54.400 would have been better to do it sooner, you know. 0:14:54.440 --> 0:14:57.800 I look at all these years. I was on Instagram 0:14:57.840 --> 0:15:00.680 with one of my friends, the people I went to 0:15:00.680 --> 0:15:03.320 school with who was black, and my senior year they 0:15:03.320 --> 0:15:06.080 closed down the black high school, merged it with the 0:15:06.120 --> 0:15:08.680 white high school, turned the black school into the middle school, 0:15:08.720 --> 0:15:11.360 and sort of moved everything into that building. And I 0:15:11.400 --> 0:15:13.880 was asking, I said, what did feel like? And he 0:15:13.920 --> 0:15:17.560 said I felt unwelcome? And I thought that was the 0:15:17.720 --> 0:15:21.600 interesting feeling about. You know, here are these kids that 0:15:21.640 --> 0:15:25.000 are forced to go somewhere new, into a new situation 0:15:25.640 --> 0:15:29.160 and not feeling like everybody's going, hey, welcome, let me 0:15:29.200 --> 0:15:32.240 show you around. So I think it's you know, been 0:15:32.280 --> 0:15:35.640 a struggle from that, but I think there are, you know, 0:15:35.760 --> 0:15:39.000 many people making great progress, and there's some people still 0:15:39.240 --> 0:15:40.240 resisting progress. 0:15:40.560 --> 0:15:43.880 And while you were growing up in this house and 0:15:44.000 --> 0:15:47.640 the food, you also started working, as I said when 0:15:47.680 --> 0:15:49.480 you told me the other night, at a kind of 0:15:49.480 --> 0:15:51.920 almost illegal age. I would have thought it was even 0:15:52.040 --> 0:15:53.360 fourteen or fifteen. 0:15:53.640 --> 0:15:56.000 I had actually worked. Even when I was in the 0:15:56.000 --> 0:15:59.240 fifth grade. I got a job sweeping up a department 0:15:59.320 --> 0:16:02.640 store in town after the store closed. I'm sure that 0:16:02.720 --> 0:16:06.360 was illegal, But when I was fifteen, I needed the 0:16:06.440 --> 0:16:09.080 job to pay for flying lessons, and the only job 0:16:09.120 --> 0:16:10.040 I could find I just. 0:16:09.960 --> 0:16:12.720 Stopped flying lessons. Todaye fifteen you. 0:16:12.680 --> 0:16:15.120 Can solo at sixteen. So I wanted to get the 0:16:15.160 --> 0:16:17.200 money when I was fifteen, so that at sixteen I 0:16:17.200 --> 0:16:20.240 could start my flying career. And I tried to get 0:16:20.240 --> 0:16:22.920 a job bagging groceries, actually at to Pigley Wiggily, which 0:16:22.960 --> 0:16:24.560 was a very good paying job because they tipped you 0:16:24.600 --> 0:16:27.520 to bring the bags out to the car. And the jobs, 0:16:27.560 --> 0:16:29.640 as you imagine, we're all full. I tried to get 0:16:29.680 --> 0:16:32.680 a job at a men's clothing store, which everyone hung 0:16:32.720 --> 0:16:35.160 out at after school. And I had no jobs. And 0:16:35.200 --> 0:16:37.360 I walked in this radio station and asked a man 0:16:37.400 --> 0:16:39.840 named Bill Jones who owned the radio station, if I 0:16:39.840 --> 0:16:42.840 could have a job. And he said, do you get 0:16:42.840 --> 0:16:45.120 in trouble? Not really, you get good grades. Yeah, I 0:16:45.120 --> 0:16:46.920 get good grades. He goes, come in this room. He 0:16:46.920 --> 0:16:48.840 took me in a little studio. He had a real, 0:16:48.960 --> 0:16:51.640 real tape recorder. He turned it on record. He tore 0:16:51.720 --> 0:16:54.360 some wire to copy off these teletype machines he used 0:16:54.360 --> 0:16:57.040 to print the news constantly, and he said, read this. 0:16:57.880 --> 0:17:00.200 I read it. He listened to tape and goes, that's 0:17:00.200 --> 0:17:02.000 good enough. Go to New Orleans and get your third 0:17:02.040 --> 0:17:04.840 class radio telephone operator's license, which means I could then 0:17:04.840 --> 0:17:08.119 control the transmitter. And so I went away to New 0:17:08.160 --> 0:17:10.040 Orleans got it and that began my radio at age 0:17:10.640 --> 0:17:12.600 age fifteen making a dollar I think it was probably 0:17:12.600 --> 0:17:14.600 a dollar sixty five an hour minimum wage. 0:17:14.760 --> 0:17:17.320 Wow. Do you remember anything to do with food and 0:17:17.359 --> 0:17:19.600 you're ate garbage? Yeah? 0:17:19.640 --> 0:17:22.760 I mean I was a very skinny kid. So I 0:17:22.800 --> 0:17:26.560 heard in my ear always eat, you need to eat more. 0:17:26.720 --> 0:17:28.800 We got to faten you up. So I would eat 0:17:29.000 --> 0:17:33.760 bags of potato, chips and candy and everything, so anything 0:17:33.800 --> 0:17:36.480 I wanted to eat, and just had a ravenous appetite 0:17:36.560 --> 0:17:37.159 for chunk. 0:17:37.400 --> 0:17:38.919 Yeah. And did that last? 0:17:39.359 --> 0:17:41.480 Well, it lasted until I started gaining weight and go, well, 0:17:41.520 --> 0:17:43.080 wait a minute, that's not a good idea. 0:17:43.520 --> 0:17:46.760 And when you left home, did you go to university? 0:17:46.760 --> 0:17:49.600 I went to college in Jackson, Mississippi. I was on 0:17:49.640 --> 0:17:52.000 the radio. I kept getting better and better jobs, and 0:17:52.040 --> 0:17:55.080 I had a job I worked in the afternoons in Brookhaven. 0:17:55.480 --> 0:17:58.000 On Sunday, I drove to Jackson and was on Sunday 0:17:58.000 --> 0:18:00.320 morning on the one o two point nine stereo rock 0:18:00.359 --> 0:18:02.720 and Jackson where we went. And that was a tasty 0:18:02.760 --> 0:18:05.760 track from Doctor John the Night Tripper. And before that 0:18:05.840 --> 0:18:09.000 you heard the doors and it was you imagine great radio. 0:18:09.080 --> 0:18:11.919 You would imagine people sitting in some you know, smoke 0:18:12.000 --> 0:18:15.240 field filled room. And then I got a job on 0:18:15.280 --> 0:18:17.879 the top forty station in town, which was the Pop station, 0:18:18.359 --> 0:18:20.359 and I did night times there. So at the college 0:18:20.359 --> 0:18:23.679 here in today, went there and I got completely bitten 0:18:23.720 --> 0:18:26.119 by the radio bug and decided this is going to 0:18:26.119 --> 0:18:29.280 be my career. Maybe as simple as because there were 0:18:29.359 --> 0:18:32.199 restlines ringing all the time, and there were girls in 0:18:32.200 --> 0:18:33.920 the other end of the request line. I mean, mom, 0:18:34.119 --> 0:18:36.240 you know a teenage boy and they go, hello, I'd 0:18:36.240 --> 0:18:37.679 like to meet you, and you go, what you're asking 0:18:37.680 --> 0:18:41.399 me to meet me? So I got buried. This was 0:18:41.520 --> 0:18:47.040 nineteen seventy one seventy two. In nineteen seventy two, I 0:18:47.080 --> 0:18:49.320 sent away all these air checks, which are tapes of 0:18:49.359 --> 0:18:51.840 your radio shows, all these radio stations all over the 0:18:51.840 --> 0:18:54.200 country trying to get a job, and I got hired 0:18:54.200 --> 0:18:57.360 in Milwaukee. This eighteen year old kid. I've never been 0:18:57.400 --> 0:19:01.879 north of Tennessee, and I remember driving up. I loaded 0:19:01.960 --> 0:19:03.919 up my car, I drove up, spent the night in 0:19:03.920 --> 0:19:05.920 Saint Louis, and then I drove the rest of away 0:19:05.960 --> 0:19:08.480 the next day. And when I saw that Chicago skyline, 0:19:08.600 --> 0:19:11.600 I went, oh my god, what is that I've never 0:19:11.640 --> 0:19:15.360 seen anything like it. And I said one day, One day, 0:19:15.359 --> 0:19:17.920 I'm going to work in Chicago. And I went to Milwaukee, 0:19:18.040 --> 0:19:21.840 and the competitor in Milwaukee had a sister station in Detroit, 0:19:22.280 --> 0:19:24.280 and they hired me to go to Detroit to do 0:19:24.400 --> 0:19:26.600