1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:03,840 Speaker 1: Welcome to Ruthie's Table four, a production of iHeartRadio and 2 00:00:03,920 --> 00:00:05,400 Speaker 1: Adamized Studios. 3 00:00:08,960 --> 00:00:11,720 Speaker 2: Today we're here at the can Lion Festival and its 4 00:00:11,800 --> 00:00:14,200 Speaker 2: fopped the River Cafe Kitchen for a galley on the 5 00:00:14,200 --> 00:00:17,279 Speaker 2: most beautiful boat in the harbor, which I'm happy to 6 00:00:17,320 --> 00:00:21,759 Speaker 2: say is safely tied up. Bob Pittman is a captain 7 00:00:22,079 --> 00:00:24,360 Speaker 2: sort of, as he is of so many great things. 8 00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:28,040 Speaker 2: He created MTV, which changed the way we listened to music, 9 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:31,720 Speaker 2: and most recently, iHeartMedia, which changed the way we listen 10 00:00:32,120 --> 00:00:35,840 Speaker 2: to everything else. Bob believes in stories. He's often said 11 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:39,040 Speaker 2: that everyone has one great story to tell. The first 12 00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:41,720 Speaker 2: time we met, he told me some about growing up 13 00:00:41,720 --> 00:00:44,640 Speaker 2: in Mississippi, the food his family cooked, and from an 14 00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:47,800 Speaker 2: early age, his almost illegal passion for being a pilot. 15 00:00:48,360 --> 00:00:52,080 Speaker 2: He spoke movingly and proudly about his father's brave commitment 16 00:00:52,479 --> 00:00:56,640 Speaker 2: as an anti segregationist. In our short and recent friendship, 17 00:00:56,680 --> 00:00:59,720 Speaker 2: I've learned from many about his generosity, his faith in 18 00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:03,800 Speaker 2: new talent, and guess what else, his rigorous passion for 19 00:01:03,960 --> 00:01:08,880 Speaker 2: producing Cassa Dragons tequila definitely my favorite. In the two 20 00:01:08,959 --> 00:01:11,840 Speaker 2: years I've known him, I've heard nothing but admiration and 21 00:01:11,920 --> 00:01:19,560 Speaker 2: love from everyone I've spoken to. I understand why. So 22 00:01:19,640 --> 00:01:23,720 Speaker 2: you made this lemon ice cream, and I wonder whether 23 00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:24,800 Speaker 2: you'd like to read the recipe. 24 00:01:24,840 --> 00:01:26,320 Speaker 3: Of course, I'd like to read the roceperes I like 25 00:01:26,360 --> 00:01:28,960 Speaker 3: it because the headline says Bob Pittman lemon ice cream, 26 00:01:29,400 --> 00:01:31,760 Speaker 3: the only time I've ever my name associated with it 27 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:35,440 Speaker 3: with food. I like that. So the ingredients are finely 28 00:01:35,480 --> 00:01:41,600 Speaker 3: grated zest of one and juice of three lemons makes sense, 29 00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:45,800 Speaker 3: a cup of sugar, a half teaspoon of sea salt, 30 00:01:46,280 --> 00:01:49,320 Speaker 3: two cups of double cream. It serves six, and you 31 00:01:49,360 --> 00:01:52,320 Speaker 3: put it in a bowl. Mix in the lemon, zest 32 00:01:52,360 --> 00:01:57,040 Speaker 3: and juice, sugar and salt with a spoon slowly, I'm 33 00:01:57,040 --> 00:02:00,360 Speaker 3: sure slowly is important. Add the cream carefully, mixing with 34 00:02:00,360 --> 00:02:04,120 Speaker 3: a spoon, and it will immediately thicken. You didn't put 35 00:02:04,160 --> 00:02:06,760 Speaker 3: this is really simple stuff. This is absolutely my kind 36 00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:10,200 Speaker 3: of recipe. You then put the ice cream mixture in 37 00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:12,680 Speaker 3: the freezer and freeze it for two hours. It hardens 38 00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:15,320 Speaker 3: up and then you have magic Try it. 39 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:19,840 Speaker 2: Okay, So the thing about this ice cream is that 40 00:02:19,880 --> 00:02:21,240 Speaker 2: you don't have to churn it. 41 00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:25,000 Speaker 3: By the way, as a kid growing up in Mississippi. 42 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:28,080 Speaker 3: My grandmother had a churn and would make ice cream. 43 00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:32,360 Speaker 3: And I loved the ice cream. I hated churning it. 44 00:02:32,639 --> 00:02:34,720 Speaker 3: This was before the days of electric stuff. This is 45 00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:37,399 Speaker 3: you turn it and turn it. When it got really hard, 46 00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:39,760 Speaker 3: I call my older brother over. You turn it some 47 00:02:40,400 --> 00:02:43,560 Speaker 3: and then we'd sort of put it away and we'd 48 00:02:43,560 --> 00:02:44,680 Speaker 3: have the ice cream. 49 00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:47,000 Speaker 2: So tell me about the churner. So we had the 50 00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:47,600 Speaker 2: ice in the. 51 00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:51,840 Speaker 3: Like a wooden tub, and it had a ice in it, 52 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:54,840 Speaker 3: and you put this metal container down that would hook 53 00:02:54,880 --> 00:02:57,919 Speaker 3: onto the crank on top, put kosher salt all over, 54 00:02:57,919 --> 00:03:01,280 Speaker 3: a big salt, just covered the ice with that, and 55 00:03:01,320 --> 00:03:03,800 Speaker 3: you churn and churn and churn until it hardened up. 56 00:03:04,440 --> 00:03:06,880 Speaker 2: And that was your grandmother, my grandmother. Did your mother 57 00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:09,360 Speaker 2: then discover that you could actually put a plug in 58 00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:12,160 Speaker 2: and today. 59 00:03:11,480 --> 00:03:13,440 Speaker 3: That and we were probably too poor to buy one, 60 00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:16,400 Speaker 3: even if there was one for sale. But it was 61 00:03:16,440 --> 00:03:18,480 Speaker 3: perfect with my grandmother, who, by the way, at the 62 00:03:18,480 --> 00:03:23,239 Speaker 3: same time was making crab gumbo that we'd been catching 63 00:03:23,240 --> 00:03:25,920 Speaker 3: the crabs all day. She was from the Orleans and 64 00:03:26,040 --> 00:03:30,240 Speaker 3: had this spectacular gumbo recipe. Start cooking about nine. We'd 65 00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:32,280 Speaker 3: throw the crabs in about five, the ice cream you'd 66 00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:35,119 Speaker 3: be ready about then she'd put the towel over, take 67 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:37,560 Speaker 3: the thing off, packet with ice while we ate the gumbo, 68 00:03:37,600 --> 00:03:39,440 Speaker 3: and then we could have the ice cream for dessert. 69 00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:41,720 Speaker 2: This is just because a lot of people I talked 70 00:03:41,760 --> 00:03:44,920 Speaker 2: to really talk about their grandmothers as much as their mother. 71 00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:47,600 Speaker 2: So you started out by talking about your grandmother. So 72 00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:50,000 Speaker 2: why don't we go back to that about growing up 73 00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:52,880 Speaker 2: with your grandmother cooking for you. She lived in your house. 74 00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:55,680 Speaker 3: No, No, we just visited my grandmother often. They had 75 00:03:55,720 --> 00:03:58,600 Speaker 3: a little house on a little bay in Mississippi called 76 00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:01,480 Speaker 3: Bay Saint Louis called it the Camp, and we'd go 77 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:03,960 Speaker 3: visit them at the camp. And when we went there, 78 00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:07,760 Speaker 3: my grandmother was a proper Cajun cook, and we had 79 00:04:07,840 --> 00:04:12,320 Speaker 3: all that fabulous Southern and Cajun stuff. My mother was 80 00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:15,360 Speaker 3: from northern Mississippi, originally a farm girl, so hers was 81 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:20,400 Speaker 3: more hardy, like you know, crowder peas butter beans. Crowder 82 00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:22,839 Speaker 3: pea is sort of like a black eyep a little 83 00:04:22,839 --> 00:04:25,120 Speaker 3: firmer and sort of dark all over it supposed to 84 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:27,800 Speaker 3: one speck of darkness. And my brother and I, every 85 00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:30,120 Speaker 3: time my mother would go visit her family and come 86 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:33,880 Speaker 3: back home. She'd bring with her bushels of peas and butterbeans, 87 00:04:34,279 --> 00:04:37,160 Speaker 3: and my brother and I hated it because we had 88 00:04:37,200 --> 00:04:39,640 Speaker 3: to shell them all so that she can then freeze 89 00:04:39,640 --> 00:04:42,520 Speaker 3: them for the winter. That's you know, as a kid, 90 00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:44,039 Speaker 3: you don't want to sit around doing that stuff. 91 00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:46,000 Speaker 2: So we're only in a distance of how many miles 92 00:04:46,040 --> 00:04:47,080 Speaker 2: between northern and. 93 00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:49,560 Speaker 3: Southern Mississippi, I should probably five hour drive. 94 00:04:49,760 --> 00:04:51,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, and yet the cooking was so different. 95 00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:54,320 Speaker 3: Very different, very different. When you were down near Louisiana, 96 00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:56,960 Speaker 3: it was very spicy. When you're in the middle of 97 00:04:56,960 --> 00:04:59,720 Speaker 3: Mississippi and up north it's very bland by the time 98 00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:01,360 Speaker 3: you get to the top of the state. And by 99 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:04,440 Speaker 3: the way, all through the state there's barbecue which has 100 00:05:04,480 --> 00:05:08,680 Speaker 3: a red sauce but is very sweet, and you just 101 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:11,440 Speaker 3: sort of slow cook the stuff on steamers and so 102 00:05:11,520 --> 00:05:15,760 Speaker 3: it just sort of melts and then you slather that 103 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:18,320 Speaker 3: stuff on until it really turns to candy, put in 104 00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:20,400 Speaker 3: that smoker and just let it go and go. And 105 00:05:20,440 --> 00:05:24,080 Speaker 3: it was yeah, up north, but on the south it 106 00:05:24,120 --> 00:05:26,919 Speaker 3: was more fried food. We gig for flounders. You go 107 00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:29,200 Speaker 3: out with a white lantern and you'd look for them 108 00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:31,400 Speaker 3: in the water and you gig them and then you 109 00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:33,920 Speaker 3: pull them up in the flounders like it's a stick 110 00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:36,200 Speaker 3: with a nail on the end of it that just 111 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:38,120 Speaker 3: stick them so you can get them and you pick 112 00:05:38,160 --> 00:05:40,799 Speaker 3: them up from that they sort of burrow into the sand. 113 00:05:40,839 --> 00:05:44,120 Speaker 3: But there are flatfish like a soul. So we do that. 114 00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:47,160 Speaker 3: But my again, my parents and my grandmother, you put 115 00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:50,240 Speaker 3: them in cornmeal, although everything's putting cornmeal, and you're throw 116 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:54,640 Speaker 3: in the deep fryer and you have this spectacular fried fish. 117 00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:57,440 Speaker 3: Everything's fried. I had an uncle who said, I like 118 00:05:57,480 --> 00:05:59,400 Speaker 3: him anyway, you fix it as long as you fry 119 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:03,640 Speaker 3: at last. So I think that was a great indication 120 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:04,520 Speaker 3: of Southern cooking. 121 00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:09,520 Speaker 2: And do you think that black culture also contributed to this. 122 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:13,000 Speaker 2: I know that's something going on right now about the 123 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:16,479 Speaker 2: black community feeling that a lot of the Cajun cooking 124 00:06:16,600 --> 00:06:20,240 Speaker 2: or the cooking of the South amidst their culture. Do 125 00:06:20,279 --> 00:06:21,320 Speaker 2: you think that or do well? 126 00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:24,159 Speaker 3: I think the Southern cooking and the Black culture were 127 00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:27,760 Speaker 3: completely intertwined. I mean it was sort of all of one. 128 00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:31,719 Speaker 3: And I spent time in Chicago and I love the 129 00:06:31,760 --> 00:06:35,480 Speaker 3: South Side of Chicago. Soul cooking is the cooking out 130 00:06:35,640 --> 00:06:38,440 Speaker 3: I grew up with and always share that affection for 131 00:06:39,080 --> 00:06:41,960 Speaker 3: My other favorite is fried okra, where you cut the 132 00:06:41,960 --> 00:06:45,480 Speaker 3: okra up, have a cast iron skillet, get the really hot, 133 00:06:45,880 --> 00:06:48,200 Speaker 3: roll around in some corn meal and throw it in 134 00:06:48,240 --> 00:06:51,200 Speaker 3: there and by the time it comes out it's crispy. 135 00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:52,560 Speaker 3: I like a popcorn. 136 00:06:52,960 --> 00:06:56,599 Speaker 2: You said something about being too poor to afford a churner, 137 00:06:56,839 --> 00:07:00,480 Speaker 2: perhaps for the ice cream. Tell me about life in 138 00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:02,120 Speaker 2: the Pittman household. 139 00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:04,800 Speaker 3: I grew up. I didn't know we were port My 140 00:07:04,960 --> 00:07:08,440 Speaker 3: dad was very well educated. He had his undergrad from 141 00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:11,400 Speaker 3: University of Southern Mississippi, had a graduate school at Emory 142 00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:14,360 Speaker 3: in Atlanta. My mother was a college graduate, which is 143 00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:17,960 Speaker 3: also unusual for two parents at that era. And the 144 00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:22,040 Speaker 3: family really valued smarts. My dad was a Methodist minister, 145 00:07:22,520 --> 00:07:24,120 Speaker 3: so the church gave us a house and give us 146 00:07:24,120 --> 00:07:26,320 Speaker 3: a very nice house. So we had a nice house 147 00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:28,680 Speaker 3: as if we have a lot of money, and they 148 00:07:28,720 --> 00:07:30,680 Speaker 3: would let you. They would let the ministers join the 149 00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:32,680 Speaker 3: country club. So even though they had no money, they 150 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:33,960 Speaker 3: didn't have to pay. But we could go to the 151 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:36,160 Speaker 3: country club as if we have money. And so we 152 00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:41,040 Speaker 3: had a decent lifestyle but little money. And but you know, 153 00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:43,120 Speaker 3: in those days, you didn't miss it and you didn't 154 00:07:43,160 --> 00:07:45,440 Speaker 3: know and all that wasn't flaunted on TV. 155 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:50,600 Speaker 2: And what was it? What was Yeah? How many are you? 156 00:07:50,640 --> 00:07:54,280 Speaker 3: I had one brother, and I had a magical upbringing 157 00:07:54,520 --> 00:07:56,640 Speaker 3: that I didn't realize how magical it was till I 158 00:07:56,680 --> 00:07:59,920 Speaker 3: became an adult. I never in my life saw my parents. 159 00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:02,760 Speaker 3: My parents have disagreements, They go, well, I don't know 160 00:08:02,760 --> 00:08:04,760 Speaker 3: if I agree with that, Well, I don't know, why 161 00:08:04,760 --> 00:08:06,600 Speaker 3: do you think that? And they would go through it. 162 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:10,400 Speaker 3: In our household, you couldn't say hate. We never hated anybody. 163 00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:12,840 Speaker 3: We didn't hate anything. So that was sort of the 164 00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:15,680 Speaker 3: dirty word of the house. And when my mom passed away, 165 00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:17,840 Speaker 3: one of my cousins said, you know, the worst thing 166 00:08:17,840 --> 00:08:20,040 Speaker 3: I ever heard your mother say about somebody was I 167 00:08:20,080 --> 00:08:22,200 Speaker 3: wonder why they want to be that way. So that 168 00:08:22,320 --> 00:08:24,640 Speaker 3: was her way of saying, that's not her favorite person. 169 00:08:25,120 --> 00:08:28,880 Speaker 3: But everything was met with sort of an understanding and 170 00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:32,840 Speaker 3: a gentility which I truly appreciate. My brother and I 171 00:08:32,880 --> 00:08:36,000 Speaker 3: often talk about we definitely won the parent lottery, and 172 00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:38,079 Speaker 3: you know, oh, yes we'd have money. We didn't have 173 00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:40,440 Speaker 3: a lot of things, but I'll trade all that for 174 00:08:40,520 --> 00:08:41,040 Speaker 3: what we had. 175 00:08:40,960 --> 00:08:42,200 Speaker 2: Did you and your brother aren't you? 176 00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:45,559 Speaker 3: Of course there were kids. And by the way, I 177 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:47,520 Speaker 3: wish I could say I didn't argue in my household, 178 00:08:47,559 --> 00:08:49,640 Speaker 3: because I don't have that. I don't know what. I 179 00:08:49,640 --> 00:08:52,800 Speaker 3: don't know how my parents managed to pull that off, 180 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:54,800 Speaker 3: and I think I didn't appreciate it until I became 181 00:08:54,840 --> 00:08:55,320 Speaker 3: an adult. 182 00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:58,640 Speaker 2: This reminds me of when I talked to Valerie Biden, 183 00:08:58,679 --> 00:09:02,360 Speaker 2: who's President biden sister, and she said she was brought 184 00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:06,640 Speaker 2: up in a household of Irish Catholics in Delaware where 185 00:09:06,679 --> 00:09:09,560 Speaker 2: there was no argument. You just were not allowed to 186 00:09:10,240 --> 00:09:13,839 Speaker 2: argue with your brothers or your sisters. That in the house, 187 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:16,320 Speaker 2: it was that you were you know, you defended each other. 188 00:09:16,360 --> 00:09:19,280 Speaker 2: And I wonder about that because you just see that 189 00:09:19,360 --> 00:09:21,240 Speaker 2: as so much of our life. I don't know about 190 00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:24,240 Speaker 2: your children, but disagreement is okay. You know, it is 191 00:09:24,320 --> 00:09:28,200 Speaker 2: okay to disagree, It's okay to take your position. But 192 00:09:28,280 --> 00:09:30,880 Speaker 2: it's something very beautiful as well about the idea that 193 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:33,560 Speaker 2: somehow there was peace and you were in the house. 194 00:09:33,800 --> 00:09:38,319 Speaker 3: Also a difference between arguing and personalizing something. It's one 195 00:09:38,320 --> 00:09:41,160 Speaker 3: thing to debate it. I believe that you believe that, 196 00:09:41,440 --> 00:09:43,839 Speaker 3: and will I don't know why you believe that. Let's 197 00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:46,720 Speaker 3: figure out as opposed to you're bad, you're an idiot, 198 00:09:47,200 --> 00:09:50,120 Speaker 3: you don't care, you're evil, and you know, if you 199 00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:53,280 Speaker 3: avoid personalizing it, I think you go so far because 200 00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:54,559 Speaker 3: you can continue the conversation. 201 00:09:55,160 --> 00:09:58,080 Speaker 2: Bettlheim said a great thing I remember as young parent. 202 00:09:58,120 --> 00:09:59,960 Speaker 2: He said that you don't ever say to a child 203 00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:03,040 Speaker 2: you are something. You say you are behaving. So you 204 00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:06,200 Speaker 2: don't say you are selfish. You say you are behaving 205 00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:09,319 Speaker 2: in a selfish way, you know, and that makes apparently. 206 00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:12,040 Speaker 3: A selfish act, and then you usually say, but I 207 00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:16,080 Speaker 3: know that's not you. There's also in a hopeful tone 208 00:10:16,160 --> 00:10:16,800 Speaker 3: to the child. 209 00:10:16,880 --> 00:10:19,000 Speaker 2: So what we aspired to, there's a great coatoon in 210 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:20,880 Speaker 2: the New Yorker which your mother says, I'm going to 211 00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:23,400 Speaker 2: get very angry at you in a very quiet and 212 00:10:23,440 --> 00:10:26,600 Speaker 2: controlled way, which is also maybe not that. But back 213 00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:28,679 Speaker 2: to the food. So you said your mother worked. 214 00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:32,560 Speaker 3: My mother worked as a school teacher for some of 215 00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:35,360 Speaker 3: my childhood and then was stayed at home mom after that, 216 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:39,680 Speaker 3: and so she would cook and cooked and ate at home. Right. 217 00:10:40,080 --> 00:10:42,760 Speaker 3: Usually it was a somewhat like meal coume in eggs, 218 00:10:43,320 --> 00:10:48,079 Speaker 3: piece of meat, piece of fish, some peas, beans, rice 219 00:10:48,760 --> 00:10:52,040 Speaker 3: and uh, sort of these wholesome eating and they would 220 00:10:52,040 --> 00:10:55,199 Speaker 3: probably could be fried stuff. But we also eat stuff 221 00:10:55,240 --> 00:10:55,800 Speaker 3: like squirrel. 222 00:10:56,760 --> 00:10:59,000 Speaker 2: Would squirrel like I've never eaten squirrel. 223 00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:00,760 Speaker 3: Well, squirrel. I always think it. You know, people say 224 00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:03,240 Speaker 3: something tastes like chicken. I always think something tastes like squirrel. 225 00:11:03,280 --> 00:11:08,319 Speaker 3: Squirrels my reference meat. I'm kidding, but it is, uh, 226 00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:11,600 Speaker 3: but it you know, it's a it's a much leaner 227 00:11:11,640 --> 00:11:16,559 Speaker 3: meat than anything you probably get that's domesticated. But I 228 00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:17,600 Speaker 3: always liked squirrel of. 229 00:11:17,640 --> 00:11:20,559 Speaker 2: This, like, would you hunt them? Would you go to 230 00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:21,320 Speaker 2: the squirrel No? 231 00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:23,400 Speaker 3: No, you know, I can't buy them at the grocery store. 232 00:11:23,440 --> 00:11:25,640 Speaker 3: But either I'd hunt them or somebody would bring some 233 00:11:25,679 --> 00:11:29,000 Speaker 3: squirrel by because they've been squirrel hunting and uh. And 234 00:11:29,080 --> 00:11:32,240 Speaker 3: occasionally people bring by dove or quail and eat that 235 00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:37,040 Speaker 3: as well. Yeah, quail and venison. Yeah, it was always 236 00:11:37,120 --> 00:11:39,640 Speaker 3: somebody would get a deer every winter, and then the 237 00:11:39,920 --> 00:11:42,679 Speaker 3: butcher it and everybody have some venison for the winner 238 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:44,360 Speaker 3: venison sausage. 239 00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:47,520 Speaker 2: I grew up in upstate New York, and I still 240 00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:50,120 Speaker 2: have memories of the deer on the front of the car. 241 00:11:50,360 --> 00:11:54,160 Speaker 2: Even the deer being brought back from the hunting, you know, 242 00:11:54,520 --> 00:11:57,440 Speaker 2: and then you watch Bambi and could never take it right. 243 00:11:57,640 --> 00:11:59,760 Speaker 3: Well, you get the wild boars. They didn't look so nice. 244 00:11:59,800 --> 00:12:02,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, did your parents ever take you to a restaurant? 245 00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:05,680 Speaker 3: We did, but there were not great restaurants. And bo 246 00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:08,920 Speaker 3: Cava Mississippi Holiday and on Sunday was probably the best 247 00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:12,760 Speaker 3: restaurant in town. There were catfish cabins which were great. 248 00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:15,000 Speaker 3: So you go out there on the river and you'd 249 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:19,440 Speaker 3: eat the filet of catfish and hush puppies and French 250 00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:25,400 Speaker 3: fries and are a corn meal that's fried, No, that's 251 00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:28,320 Speaker 3: corn dog with a hot dog in it. But think 252 00:12:28,360 --> 00:12:30,320 Speaker 3: of that without the hot dog in it, Yeah, and 253 00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:32,480 Speaker 3: without the stick, and you're getting pretty close to a 254 00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:35,000 Speaker 3: hush puppy. So there were things like that. There's sort 255 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:37,839 Speaker 3: of specialty places, but there were no in my day. 256 00:12:37,880 --> 00:12:40,040 Speaker 3: There was no fine dining, and if there was, my 257 00:12:40,120 --> 00:12:41,280 Speaker 3: family would know about it. 258 00:12:41,480 --> 00:12:45,080 Speaker 2: Yeah. Talking about your father and segregation, can you tell 259 00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:47,840 Speaker 2: me about that. Presumably when you went to restaurants they 260 00:12:47,880 --> 00:12:50,520 Speaker 2: were segregated. It was your school segregated. 261 00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:54,320 Speaker 3: When I started school in Mississippi in nineteen fifty nine, 262 00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:57,360 Speaker 3: it was completely segregated. There were white schools and black schools. 263 00:12:57,880 --> 00:13:02,480 Speaker 3: There were colored only for water fountains and bathrooms, and 264 00:13:02,559 --> 00:13:07,199 Speaker 3: white onlies completely separate. In the twelve years I went 265 00:13:07,240 --> 00:13:10,520 Speaker 3: to school, everything happened, and by my senior year in 266 00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:13,600 Speaker 3: high school, my graduating class was about fifty to fifty 267 00:13:13,640 --> 00:13:17,120 Speaker 3: white black. So it all happened in my school years. 268 00:13:17,559 --> 00:13:21,000 Speaker 3: And there were people like my dad who were very 269 00:13:21,200 --> 00:13:24,800 Speaker 3: supportive of change and working hard for it. There were 270 00:13:24,840 --> 00:13:27,880 Speaker 3: people who were absolute racist and didn't want it, and 271 00:13:27,920 --> 00:13:29,439 Speaker 3: then there was a group of people in between that 272 00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:32,559 Speaker 3: knew it was the right thing, but they just they 273 00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:36,160 Speaker 3: wanted to come slowly. I was talking to Jesse Jackson once, 274 00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:39,760 Speaker 3: and Jesse was saying that the biggest problem they had 275 00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:43,120 Speaker 3: in the civil rights movement were not the racists, because 276 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:44,679 Speaker 3: they could sort of deal with them. It was the 277 00:13:44,679 --> 00:13:47,000 Speaker 3: people who wanted to go slow. And that's sort of 278 00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:49,400 Speaker 3: human nature, I'm sure. So there was not bad people. 279 00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:53,160 Speaker 3: They weren't terrible people. They just they were liked want 280 00:13:53,160 --> 00:13:55,760 Speaker 3: things to change, and so I think you had to 281 00:13:55,800 --> 00:13:59,480 Speaker 3: sort of overcome that inertia. You didn't necessarily have to 282 00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:02,040 Speaker 3: convince them not to be racist. You had to commence 283 00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:04,319 Speaker 3: them to go ahead and make the changes and make 284 00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:07,400 Speaker 3: them more dramatically than you expected to be. Initially, in 285 00:14:07,400 --> 00:14:11,320 Speaker 3: Mississippi to break through segregation, they did freedom of choice, 286 00:14:11,320 --> 00:14:13,079 Speaker 3: so you could choose which school you wanted. 287 00:14:12,920 --> 00:14:13,240 Speaker 2: To go to. 288 00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:15,959 Speaker 3: So we have maybe ten black kids at our school 289 00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:19,400 Speaker 3: and maybe ten white kids at the black school. Hardly integrated. 290 00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:22,000 Speaker 3: And it wasn't until the federal government basically said, look, 291 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:24,000 Speaker 3: you're going to have to bust kids or do whatever, 292 00:14:24,040 --> 00:14:25,920 Speaker 3: but you're gonna have to mix the schools based on 293 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:29,680 Speaker 3: sort of the racial population of the area. And that's 294 00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:30,760 Speaker 3: when the big change came. 295 00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:33,880 Speaker 2: I mean, we're getting into another discussion, but that is 296 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:36,280 Speaker 2: the role of the federal government, wasn't it was saying, 297 00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:39,760 Speaker 2: you know, we do you change hearts and minds first 298 00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:44,320 Speaker 2: and then bring an integration or do you say we're 299 00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:47,280 Speaker 2: doing this and you're going to have to change. 300 00:14:47,560 --> 00:14:49,040 Speaker 3: I think, you know, and by the way, I don't 301 00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:52,440 Speaker 3: think there was any looking back any other way. Probably 302 00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:54,400 Speaker 3: would have been better to do it sooner, you know. 303 00:14:54,440 --> 00:14:57,800 Speaker 3: I look at all these years. I was on Instagram 304 00:14:57,840 --> 00:15:00,680 Speaker 3: with one of my friends, the people I went to 305 00:15:00,680 --> 00:15:03,320 Speaker 3: school with who was black, and my senior year they 306 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:06,080 Speaker 3: closed down the black high school, merged it with the 307 00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:08,680 Speaker 3: white high school, turned the black school into the middle school, 308 00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:11,360 Speaker 3: and sort of moved everything into that building. And I 309 00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:13,880 Speaker 3: was asking, I said, what did feel like? And he 310 00:15:13,920 --> 00:15:17,560 Speaker 3: said I felt unwelcome? And I thought that was the 311 00:15:17,720 --> 00:15:21,600 Speaker 3: interesting feeling about. You know, here are these kids that 312 00:15:21,640 --> 00:15:25,000 Speaker 3: are forced to go somewhere new, into a new situation 313 00:15:25,640 --> 00:15:29,160 Speaker 3: and not feeling like everybody's going, hey, welcome, let me 314 00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:32,240 Speaker 3: show you around. So I think it's you know, been 315 00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:35,640 Speaker 3: a struggle from that, but I think there are, you know, 316 00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:39,000 Speaker 3: many people making great progress, and there's some people still 317 00:15:39,240 --> 00:15:40,240 Speaker 3: resisting progress. 318 00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:43,880 Speaker 2: And while you were growing up in this house and 319 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:47,640 Speaker 2: the food, you also started working, as I said when 320 00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:49,480 Speaker 2: you told me the other night, at a kind of 321 00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:51,920 Speaker 2: almost illegal age. I would have thought it was even 322 00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:53,360 Speaker 2: fourteen or fifteen. 323 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:56,000 Speaker 3: I had actually worked. Even when I was in the 324 00:15:56,000 --> 00:15:59,240 Speaker 3: fifth grade. I got a job sweeping up a department 325 00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:02,640 Speaker 3: store in town after the store closed. I'm sure that 326 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:06,360 Speaker 3: was illegal, But when I was fifteen, I needed the 327 00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:09,080 Speaker 3: job to pay for flying lessons, and the only job 328 00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:10,040 Speaker 3: I could find I just. 329 00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:12,720 Speaker 2: Stopped flying lessons. Todaye fifteen you. 330 00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:15,120 Speaker 3: Can solo at sixteen. So I wanted to get the 331 00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:17,200 Speaker 3: money when I was fifteen, so that at sixteen I 332 00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:20,240 Speaker 3: could start my flying career. And I tried to get 333 00:16:20,240 --> 00:16:22,920 Speaker 3: a job bagging groceries, actually at to Pigley Wiggily, which 334 00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:24,560 Speaker 3: was a very good paying job because they tipped you 335 00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:27,520 Speaker 3: to bring the bags out to the car. And the jobs, 336 00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:29,640 Speaker 3: as you imagine, we're all full. I tried to get 337 00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:32,680 Speaker 3: a job at a men's clothing store, which everyone hung 338 00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:35,160 Speaker 3: out at after school. And I had no jobs. And 339 00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:37,360 Speaker 3: I walked in this radio station and asked a man 340 00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:39,840 Speaker 3: named Bill Jones who owned the radio station, if I 341 00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:42,840 Speaker 3: could have a job. And he said, do you get 342 00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:45,120 Speaker 3: in trouble? Not really, you get good grades. Yeah, I 343 00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:46,920 Speaker 3: get good grades. He goes, come in this room. He 344 00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:48,840 Speaker 3: took me in a little studio. He had a real, 345 00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:51,640 Speaker 3: real tape recorder. He turned it on record. He tore 346 00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:54,360 Speaker 3: some wire to copy off these teletype machines he used 347 00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:57,040 Speaker 3: to print the news constantly, and he said, read this. 348 00:16:57,880 --> 00:17:00,200 Speaker 3: I read it. He listened to tape and goes, that's 349 00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:02,000 Speaker 3: good enough. Go to New Orleans and get your third 350 00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:04,840 Speaker 3: class radio telephone operator's license, which means I could then 351 00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:08,119 Speaker 3: control the transmitter. And so I went away to New 352 00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:10,040 Speaker 3: Orleans got it and that began my radio at age 353 00:17:10,640 --> 00:17:12,600 Speaker 3: age fifteen making a dollar I think it was probably 354 00:17:12,600 --> 00:17:14,600 Speaker 3: a dollar sixty five an hour minimum wage. 355 00:17:14,760 --> 00:17:17,320 Speaker 2: Wow. Do you remember anything to do with food and 356 00:17:17,359 --> 00:17:19,600 Speaker 2: you're ate garbage? Yeah? 357 00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:22,760 Speaker 3: I mean I was a very skinny kid. So I 358 00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:26,560 Speaker 3: heard in my ear always eat, you need to eat more. 359 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:28,800 Speaker 3: We got to faten you up. So I would eat 360 00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:33,760 Speaker 3: bags of potato, chips and candy and everything, so anything 361 00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:36,480 Speaker 3: I wanted to eat, and just had a ravenous appetite 362 00:17:36,560 --> 00:17:37,159 Speaker 3: for chunk. 363 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:38,919 Speaker 2: Yeah. And did that last? 364 00:17:39,359 --> 00:17:41,480 Speaker 3: Well, it lasted until I started gaining weight and go, well, 365 00:17:41,520 --> 00:17:43,080 Speaker 3: wait a minute, that's not a good idea. 366 00:17:43,520 --> 00:17:46,760 Speaker 2: And when you left home, did you go to university? 367 00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:49,600 Speaker 3: I went to college in Jackson, Mississippi. I was on 368 00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:52,000 Speaker 3: the radio. I kept getting better and better jobs, and 369 00:17:52,040 --> 00:17:55,080 Speaker 3: I had a job I worked in the afternoons in Brookhaven. 370 00:17:55,480 --> 00:17:58,000 Speaker 3: On Sunday, I drove to Jackson and was on Sunday 371 00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:00,320 Speaker 3: morning on the one o two point nine stereo rock 372 00:18:00,359 --> 00:18:02,720 Speaker 3: and Jackson where we went. And that was a tasty 373 00:18:02,760 --> 00:18:05,760 Speaker 3: track from Doctor John the Night Tripper. And before that 374 00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:09,000 Speaker 3: you heard the doors and it was you imagine great radio. 375 00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:11,919 Speaker 3: You would imagine people sitting in some you know, smoke 376 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:15,240 Speaker 3: field filled room. And then I got a job on 377 00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:17,879 Speaker 3: the top forty station in town, which was the Pop station, 378 00:18:18,359 --> 00:18:20,359 Speaker 3: and I did night times there. So at the college 379 00:18:20,359 --> 00:18:23,679 Speaker 3: here in today, went there and I got completely bitten 380 00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:26,119 Speaker 3: by the radio bug and decided this is going to 381 00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:29,280 Speaker 3: be my career. Maybe as simple as because there were 382 00:18:29,359 --> 00:18:32,199 Speaker 3: restlines ringing all the time, and there were girls in 383 00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:33,920 Speaker 3: the other end of the request line. I mean, mom, 384 00:18:34,119 --> 00:18:36,240 Speaker 3: you know a teenage boy and they go, hello, I'd 385 00:18:36,240 --> 00:18:37,679 Speaker 3: like to meet you, and you go, what you're asking 386 00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:41,399 Speaker 3: me to meet me? So I got buried. This was 387 00:18:41,520 --> 00:18:47,040 Speaker 3: nineteen seventy one seventy two. In nineteen seventy two, I 388 00:18:47,080 --> 00:18:49,320 Speaker 3: sent away all these air checks, which are tapes of 389 00:18:49,359 --> 00:18:51,840 Speaker 3: your radio shows, all these radio stations all over the 390 00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:54,200 Speaker 3: country trying to get a job, and I got hired 391 00:18:54,200 --> 00:18:57,360 Speaker 3: in Milwaukee. This eighteen year old kid. I've never been 392 00:18:57,400 --> 00:19:01,879 Speaker 3: north of Tennessee, and I remember driving up. I loaded 393 00:19:01,960 --> 00:19:03,919 Speaker 3: up my car, I drove up, spent the night in 394 00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:05,920 Speaker 3: Saint Louis, and then I drove the rest of away 395 00:19:05,960 --> 00:19:08,480 Speaker 3: the next day. And when I saw that Chicago skyline, 396 00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:11,600 Speaker 3: I went, oh my god, what is that I've never 397 00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:15,360 Speaker 3: seen anything like it. And I said one day, One day, 398 00:19:15,359 --> 00:19:17,920 Speaker 3: I'm going to work in Chicago. And I went to Milwaukee, 399 00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:21,840 Speaker 3: and the competitor in Milwaukee had a sister station in Detroit, 400 00:19:22,280 --> 00:19:24,280 Speaker 3: and they hired me to go to Detroit to do 401 00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:26,600 Speaker 3: tenant night till two in the morning. At that time, 402 00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:29,080 Speaker 3: Detroit was the fifth largest city in the country. And 403 00:19:29,119 --> 00:19:31,960 Speaker 3: I go, oh my god, I'm in absolutely the big time. Now. 404 00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:33,639 Speaker 3: They didn't pay me any money, but I'm in the 405 00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:36,760 Speaker 3: big time. So at age twenty, I went to Chicago 406 00:19:37,119 --> 00:19:39,720 Speaker 3: NBC in Chicago and I'm the program director and I'm 407 00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:42,080 Speaker 3: doing the afternoon show on the radio station. And I 408 00:19:42,119 --> 00:19:43,960 Speaker 3: did the FM station there and then they sent me 409 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:51,679 Speaker 3: to New York to WNBC when I was twenty three. 410 00:19:56,920 --> 00:20:01,080 Speaker 2: Those were very heady political times, late sixties, early seventies. 411 00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:02,919 Speaker 2: Detroit was burning. 412 00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:06,760 Speaker 3: Sixties and the sixties. I came there not much after that. 413 00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:14,080 Speaker 3: The country was in turmoil, Nixon resigning, you know, everything, 414 00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:17,560 Speaker 3: the draft. I escaped the draft because I have one eye. 415 00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:21,200 Speaker 3: So I was four f so I was never going in. Yeah, 416 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:23,200 Speaker 3: but I lost an eye as a child, my right 417 00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:25,280 Speaker 3: eye lost an eye as a child in a horseback 418 00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:28,000 Speaker 3: riding accident, so I was not going to be drafted. 419 00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:31,320 Speaker 3: But I also had a They had a lottery for 420 00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:33,760 Speaker 3: my age group, and I happened to get a good 421 00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:36,240 Speaker 3: number for the lottery. Said the lottery numbers completely wasted 422 00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:39,640 Speaker 3: on me, so the draft. But the draft was there 423 00:20:40,320 --> 00:20:41,879 Speaker 3: every And by the way, I still had a draft 424 00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:44,080 Speaker 3: card because too they get called up and get classified 425 00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:45,760 Speaker 3: as four F you have to have the draft card. 426 00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:49,040 Speaker 3: But that was going on. And remember we had the 427 00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:52,439 Speaker 3: the oil embargo, so we had to wait days to 428 00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:56,200 Speaker 3: get our gasoline. And it was just an inflation went 429 00:20:56,240 --> 00:20:59,560 Speaker 3: wild and the economy went terrible and through the seventies. 430 00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:02,639 Speaker 3: So I lived through all that. I didn't know what 431 00:21:02,680 --> 00:21:05,000 Speaker 3: I was looking at. By the way, I'd never driven 432 00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:07,760 Speaker 3: in snow until I got to Detroit and someone took 433 00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:10,040 Speaker 3: me to a parking lot one day and taught me 434 00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:13,160 Speaker 3: how to drive in snow. But I learned a lot. 435 00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:14,320 Speaker 3: Did you do something bad? 436 00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:18,240 Speaker 2: Going back to the food when you left is being 437 00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:21,480 Speaker 2: cooked for by your mother, being shopped for, buying your mother, 438 00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:24,000 Speaker 2: having wild squirrels, and then you were on your own. 439 00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:27,440 Speaker 2: Did you just forget about the food that you've grown 440 00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:30,000 Speaker 2: up with and grab what you could, and did you 441 00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:32,760 Speaker 2: have an apartment where cook did you have a girlfriend 442 00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:35,240 Speaker 2: who cooked for you? Did you have a domestic life, 443 00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:37,680 Speaker 2: because you haven't described any domestic life. 444 00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:41,399 Speaker 3: I was completely a fiend for working, and I was 445 00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:44,639 Speaker 3: so ambitious that I wanted to put all my efforts 446 00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:47,480 Speaker 3: into working. I would eat whatever I could. I'd eat 447 00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:51,080 Speaker 3: stuff out of a can. I felt it was like 448 00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:55,960 Speaker 3: a college student eating. But when I went to Milwaukee 449 00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:58,399 Speaker 3: back then, the regional foods and that's the first time 450 00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:00,639 Speaker 3: I ever saw a submarine sam which I go, what 451 00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:03,720 Speaker 3: the hell is that thing? So I discovered submarine sandwiches. 452 00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:06,000 Speaker 3: I think I ate my first pizza in Detroit and 453 00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:08,560 Speaker 3: you like it? Yeah, I liked it. It was not 454 00:22:08,600 --> 00:22:12,119 Speaker 3: what I expected, and I probably got to I went 455 00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:14,320 Speaker 3: to Pittsburgh in Chicago, I think I was Chicago before 456 00:22:14,359 --> 00:22:17,840 Speaker 3: ever he ate an artichoke, and I. 457 00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:20,000 Speaker 2: Remember the first time I ate an artichoke. I was 458 00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:24,679 Speaker 2: at Harvard at a party and somebody passed around. I 459 00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:26,720 Speaker 2: literally didn't know how to eat it. I didn't know 460 00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:29,840 Speaker 2: what it was that you took the leaf off, you 461 00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:31,720 Speaker 2: know that that was something that. 462 00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:35,600 Speaker 3: Was A girlfriend introduced me to the artichoke, and she 463 00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:38,040 Speaker 3: had to explain to me as if I'm some simpleton 464 00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:40,720 Speaker 3: how I would eat it. And I thought, wow, this 465 00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:43,240 Speaker 3: is so advanced. I can't wait to go back to 466 00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:45,360 Speaker 3: Mississippi and tell him about an ARTI choke. 467 00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:47,720 Speaker 2: When you were at home, Was it a big event 468 00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:48,359 Speaker 2: for your family? 469 00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:51,160 Speaker 3: Whenever I would come home, the cast iron skill was out. 470 00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:53,119 Speaker 3: My mother always made fried okre because she knew it 471 00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:57,119 Speaker 3: was my favorite, and we would probably have some fried catfish, 472 00:22:57,160 --> 00:23:00,000 Speaker 3: which was also mine. And for year I'm a pilot, 473 00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:03,720 Speaker 3: and for years I would stop if I was doing 474 00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:06,840 Speaker 3: a trip and going anywhere near Memphis, or I would 475 00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:09,879 Speaker 3: stop in Memphis. I would have called my cousins before 476 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:12,840 Speaker 3: get one of them to bring me some catfish and 477 00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:15,760 Speaker 3: some barbecue to the plane and get some fuel there 478 00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:18,720 Speaker 3: and take off, and so I eat the Rendezvous or 479 00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:22,480 Speaker 3: Corky's barbecue for years there in the fried catfish vallets. 480 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:23,960 Speaker 2: What do you like about flying? 481 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:28,560 Speaker 3: You know, that's a really good question. I was in 482 00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:31,840 Speaker 3: the fifth grade in Mississippi. My dad had a friend 483 00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:35,199 Speaker 3: who had an airplane two seater, and he took me 484 00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:38,719 Speaker 3: up in that plane, and I remember that sensation of 485 00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:40,720 Speaker 3: like you're going up in elevator, but you don't come down. 486 00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:43,480 Speaker 3: You just keep going. And I looked down in the 487 00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:47,160 Speaker 3: sense of control. And my grandfather worked for a man 488 00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:51,480 Speaker 3: in picking You in Mississippi who had a big lumber 489 00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:54,600 Speaker 3: mill and plant. My grandfather ran it for him, and 490 00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:59,680 Speaker 3: he had a plane, and my dad's cousin, my grandfather's, 491 00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:03,879 Speaker 3: was the pilot for it. So when I would go 492 00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:05,720 Speaker 3: to picking You, and my grandfather would let me go 493 00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:07,960 Speaker 3: out and crawl all over the plane and hang out 494 00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:10,760 Speaker 3: with these planes. And I was just eating up with airplanes. 495 00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:13,800 Speaker 3: No idea why, but it's just something about flying. And 496 00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:16,399 Speaker 3: over the years always found that I'd get in that 497 00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:19,480 Speaker 3: cockpit and whatever I'm thinking about goes away, and I 498 00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:22,600 Speaker 3: think about flying and I look down at the ground. 499 00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:26,359 Speaker 3: On cross country, I stop at these places to get fuel. 500 00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:29,080 Speaker 3: I try and stop. I used to try and stop anymore, 501 00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:31,080 Speaker 3: but used to stop in all these little towns. So 502 00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:33,800 Speaker 3: I had planes that didn't go very far before we 503 00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:36,800 Speaker 3: needed more fuel. And I would often borrow a crew car, 504 00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:40,119 Speaker 3: and while they're refueling the plane, I'd go into town 505 00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:43,320 Speaker 3: and go to a restaurant, buy something, look around. 506 00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:44,800 Speaker 2: You find out the food of the place. 507 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:47,480 Speaker 3: I can still remember I went to stop the North 508 00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:50,760 Speaker 3: Carolina once and went into town ordered some barbecue and 509 00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:53,879 Speaker 3: they brought me out this meat with like vinegar on it, 510 00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:56,280 Speaker 3: and I go, I'm sorry, I ordered barbecue, and they go, 511 00:24:56,440 --> 00:24:58,560 Speaker 3: this is barbecue. I go, boy, I don't know what 512 00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:02,800 Speaker 3: this stuff is. Well to me, it was to them 513 00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:07,240 Speaker 3: that was perfect barbecue. Where was it in North Carolina? 514 00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:11,040 Speaker 3: And I actually a friend I met years ago. I 515 00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:13,240 Speaker 3: met him at a mutual friend introduced this in a 516 00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:16,080 Speaker 3: barbecue restaurant and we start banning a little bit, and 517 00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:18,480 Speaker 3: I go, he's from North Carolina. Go, you know, I 518 00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:20,720 Speaker 3: don't know what that stuff is you have, but that's 519 00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:23,480 Speaker 3: not barbecue. So I threw down the gauntlet. And so 520 00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:28,000 Speaker 3: he organized a party that summer and invited all of 521 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:30,160 Speaker 3: his friends from the South to bring the barbecue from 522 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:33,320 Speaker 3: their home state. And it was such a great and 523 00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:35,960 Speaker 3: he did it for a couple of years, which great fun. 524 00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:38,680 Speaker 3: And you know, you realize South Carolina has this mustard 525 00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:42,720 Speaker 3: based barbecue. Texas has barbecue that looks like Mississippi. It's 526 00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:46,840 Speaker 3: red barbecue, nothing sweet about it. And then you get 527 00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:50,800 Speaker 3: very chilly Chile and then you get up to Missouri 528 00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:53,200 Speaker 3: or somewhere like that, and it is barbecue, but it's 529 00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:56,760 Speaker 3: not pork. It's beef, and everywhere else is pork barbecue. 530 00:25:56,800 --> 00:25:58,880 Speaker 3: So what's your favorite Mississippi? 531 00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:03,720 Speaker 2: Of course question, because I remember I also talked to 532 00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:06,520 Speaker 2: Al Gore and he talked a lot about the barbecue 533 00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:07,080 Speaker 2: in Tennessee. 534 00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:11,280 Speaker 3: Actually, at that party, the first party, his daughter came 535 00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:13,840 Speaker 3: with her husband, and I was going to get my 536 00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:19,199 Speaker 3: barbecue from Corky's in Memphis, and they got Corky's, so 537 00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:21,000 Speaker 3: I couldn't do that, and so I had to get 538 00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:25,280 Speaker 3: my cousin, who his partner was one of these barbecuers, 539 00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:27,840 Speaker 3: like Championship Barbecue where they take the rig out on 540 00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:30,280 Speaker 3: the weekends and they'd do with the barbecue vessel, and 541 00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:33,760 Speaker 3: so he made some and they flew it up and 542 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:36,240 Speaker 3: I had I won the award for the best barbecue, 543 00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:39,480 Speaker 3: but I totally cheated. This guy's like a blue ribbon barbecuer, 544 00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:43,280 Speaker 3: and we pulled this stuff out and so it was 545 00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:46,320 Speaker 3: that's my connection to Al's barbecue as well. 546 00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:49,520 Speaker 2: Do you think it's very male barbecuing? I always wonder 547 00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:51,600 Speaker 2: whether it's it gives men an excuse to cook. 548 00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:54,160 Speaker 3: I think I think grilling in the South was sort 549 00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:57,440 Speaker 3: of a male activity that they would hang out around 550 00:26:57,080 --> 00:27:00,600 Speaker 3: the grill outside and do it. I think it's changed 551 00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:03,560 Speaker 3: a lot. I don't think it's quite that way anymore. 552 00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:06,800 Speaker 2: And then did you have a family quite early on? 553 00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:07,760 Speaker 2: Did you have children? 554 00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:11,440 Speaker 3: And I was twenty nine when I had my first child, son? 555 00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:13,200 Speaker 2: Where was that? What city? 556 00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:13,760 Speaker 3: New York? 557 00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:17,560 Speaker 2: Yeah? And was that also work obsessed? So that you 558 00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:19,040 Speaker 2: did you think about food? 559 00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:23,400 Speaker 3: Then I'm really still work obsessed. I tell people work 560 00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:26,600 Speaker 3: is my golf. I quite enjoyed. It's like the most 561 00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:30,360 Speaker 3: interesting puzzle you could possibly play a game and love 562 00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:33,840 Speaker 3: playing it. And I often described to my kids. I 563 00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:36,800 Speaker 3: read somewhere don't go home and complain about your work 564 00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:39,040 Speaker 3: to your kids, because they'll say, if you hate it 565 00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:40,760 Speaker 3: that much, why are you doing that instead of being 566 00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:43,040 Speaker 3: with me? So you should actually be honest and say 567 00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:44,960 Speaker 3: I really enjoy my work and then say, okay, well 568 00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:46,960 Speaker 3: I understand why you do that instead of be with me. 569 00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:50,320 Speaker 3: And so with that in mind, I used to tell 570 00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:52,080 Speaker 3: my kid, you know, this is like the greatest video 571 00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:54,320 Speaker 3: game in the world. In the morning, I can't wait 572 00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:55,600 Speaker 3: to get them and start playing it. At the end 573 00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:58,560 Speaker 3: of the day, I don't quite want to put it away, but. 574 00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:01,119 Speaker 2: Did you eat when you work? Do you still stop? 575 00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:04,000 Speaker 3: I have a terrible habit. Then when I start thinking 576 00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:06,439 Speaker 3: and we start like okay, let's get in the room, 577 00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:08,520 Speaker 3: let's start white boarding, I have to eat. I don't 578 00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:10,760 Speaker 3: know what's the fuel in my brain. It's very bad 579 00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:12,600 Speaker 3: for me because what I want to eat. And it 580 00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:15,080 Speaker 3: was for years. They had a joke about how many 581 00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:18,480 Speaker 3: bags of potato chips could I eat in an hour? 582 00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:21,640 Speaker 3: And if there were cookies, I would eat. Everyone say 583 00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:23,560 Speaker 3: oh everybody wants cookies. I would eat all the cookies. 584 00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:25,800 Speaker 3: I would leave none for anyone else in a meeting 585 00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:31,159 Speaker 3: and walking And now I try and modulate that with 586 00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:34,119 Speaker 3: vegetables and something that's going to be good for me 587 00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:35,040 Speaker 3: or some nuts. 588 00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:37,879 Speaker 2: Were you too young for that kind of madmen to 589 00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:38,960 Speaker 2: Martini lunch? 590 00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:41,840 Speaker 3: I was just on the tail end of that. When 591 00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:44,600 Speaker 3: I came to New York. In the media business, people 592 00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:47,400 Speaker 3: drank every day at lunch and they had a bar 593 00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:49,920 Speaker 3: in their office. And so if you came to someone's office, 594 00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:52,080 Speaker 3: say hey, can I get you a drink? Let's talk 595 00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:55,280 Speaker 3: about this, and I'll take a vodka. And people are 596 00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:59,240 Speaker 3: like soust and there were people you would never ask 597 00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:01,719 Speaker 3: for a decision after lunch, you'd avoid them, or there 598 00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:04,280 Speaker 3: were people you always wait until after lunch to ask 599 00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:07,160 Speaker 3: them for a decision. The people who were like, oh yeah, 600 00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:09,040 Speaker 3: that's great, go ahead and do that. Those were the 601 00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:11,320 Speaker 3: people you ask after lunch, and the others that got 602 00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:13,320 Speaker 3: cranky to stay away from them, ask them before they 603 00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:13,840 Speaker 3: go to lunch. 604 00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:16,120 Speaker 2: So you did go out for working lunches. 605 00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:17,880 Speaker 3: Oh yes. In New York he did, and back at 606 00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:21,760 Speaker 3: twenty one Club across I was at the Warner Communications 607 00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:24,360 Speaker 3: for many years, which was a Rockefeller Center. Before that 608 00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:27,760 Speaker 3: was at NBC, which was also Rockefeller Center, and I 609 00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:30,680 Speaker 3: would go over to twenty one Club. We also had 610 00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:33,040 Speaker 3: a Warner by the time I rose up to be 611 00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:35,560 Speaker 3: a high enough executive, we had a corporate dining room 612 00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:38,040 Speaker 3: and that was a great luxury and something you don't 613 00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:40,040 Speaker 3: see today. I mean, there would be hoppers on the 614 00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:43,560 Speaker 3: wall and the chef would cook you anything you wanted, 615 00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:46,720 Speaker 3: and it was sort of extravagant meals. And I'd say, 616 00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:48,040 Speaker 3: you know, I don't have time to go up there. 617 00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:50,120 Speaker 3: Instead of ordering a sandwich, the chef would come down 618 00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:51,840 Speaker 3: to my office and go, what would you like me 619 00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:53,120 Speaker 3: to make for you to I haven't got it. So 620 00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:54,320 Speaker 3: and so and so I could do this and this 621 00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:55,320 Speaker 3: and this, say I'll take that. 622 00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:10,400 Speaker 2: Henry Cravis, you know Henry Sure, he had a fantastic food. 623 00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:12,480 Speaker 2: I was always so impressed with the food that he 624 00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:16,120 Speaker 2: did in London. Well, I had one of the chefs 625 00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:18,000 Speaker 2: in the River Cafe went to work for him. That 626 00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:20,800 Speaker 2: anybody could have their choice. You could order a steak, 627 00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:23,280 Speaker 2: or you could order a lobster. You could, and that 628 00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:26,600 Speaker 2: the idea of actually feeding well the people who worked 629 00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:30,160 Speaker 2: for you was an obligation and actually good for business 630 00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:31,040 Speaker 2: because you gave people. 631 00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:34,760 Speaker 3: In those days, it was the senior executives. It was 632 00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:38,440 Speaker 3: a very limited perk. When I went to America Online, 633 00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:40,320 Speaker 3: where I was president of America Online for a while, 634 00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:44,280 Speaker 3: we had in our campus in Dulles, Virginia, we had 635 00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:47,880 Speaker 3: a cafeteria and everybody got to eat there, and we 636 00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:52,120 Speaker 3: provided food that seemed much more egalitarian and much fairer. 637 00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:55,000 Speaker 3: And maybe the food wasn't quite as nice, but it 638 00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:57,200 Speaker 3: was there as affordable. People didn't have to go off 639 00:30:57,240 --> 00:30:59,640 Speaker 3: campus to go find a place to eat or bring 640 00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:00,640 Speaker 3: their food in a bag. 641 00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:04,880 Speaker 2: Richard, my husband always had a place for people to 642 00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:06,840 Speaker 2: eat in his office. You know that there was a 643 00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:09,160 Speaker 2: place where you could, you know, work on a drawing 644 00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:11,760 Speaker 2: for a building and then go down and have lunch 645 00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:13,840 Speaker 2: with the person that you were talking about it with, 646 00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:16,560 Speaker 2: or you would meet. And Michael Bloomberg does that very 647 00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:21,320 Speaker 2: seriously in his offices of actually providing free food. 648 00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:23,600 Speaker 3: He was almost a pioneer of doing that at the 649 00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:26,160 Speaker 3: level of which he did it. And you know, it's 650 00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:29,160 Speaker 3: interesting because it changes today because you can get delivery 651 00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:31,800 Speaker 3: like you never could before. I'm one of those people 652 00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:33,800 Speaker 3: that if I'm in the office, I don't want to 653 00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:36,080 Speaker 3: go out because I don't want to disrupt the work, 654 00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:38,200 Speaker 3: and somebody just sort of slides a plate in front 655 00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:40,560 Speaker 3: of me. If I'm meeting with someone, they'll ask them 656 00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:42,160 Speaker 3: what would you like? And today in New York we 657 00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:44,720 Speaker 3: order from great restaurants. Yeah, say whatever you want, we'll 658 00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:45,280 Speaker 3: order for you. 659 00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:47,600 Speaker 2: Tell that to me. I'm a restaurant. I have a restaurant. 660 00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:48,840 Speaker 2: I don't want to hear these stories. 661 00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:51,320 Speaker 3: But it was by the way. I don't know what 662 00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:54,320 Speaker 3: the profit margin is, but probably not bad because there's 663 00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:56,480 Speaker 3: no overhead except to getting the food to me. The 664 00:31:56,520 --> 00:31:58,840 Speaker 3: ones I think are tougher. Whoever, those people are who 665 00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:01,160 Speaker 3: are delivering? It can't possible been making any money? 666 00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:06,640 Speaker 2: And what about your family children? As your parents sat 667 00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:08,520 Speaker 2: down with you every night for dinner, did you do 668 00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:10,920 Speaker 2: that with your children or you were working? Now? 669 00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:14,200 Speaker 3: Well, I just found I don't know whether it's the 670 00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:16,840 Speaker 3: busy New York life or whether it was our family, 671 00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:19,200 Speaker 3: but I found everybody so wanted to eat when they 672 00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:23,440 Speaker 3: wanted to eat, and sort of indulge that. And if 673 00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:25,440 Speaker 3: I went out eat, I was going out at nine o'clock, 674 00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:29,600 Speaker 3: not at their timetable. So I would sit with kids 675 00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:33,440 Speaker 3: when they were eating in the afternoon for their dinner. 676 00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:35,480 Speaker 3: And I think as they got older, they wanted to 677 00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:36,880 Speaker 3: do this or that, and they wanted to do with 678 00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:39,280 Speaker 3: the friends, and so it was not at all what 679 00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:40,400 Speaker 3: the meal was for me. 680 00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:44,720 Speaker 2: Are they interested in food? There? Kids? Are they cooking? 681 00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:48,320 Speaker 3: My oldest son's a really good cook and very interested 682 00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:51,560 Speaker 3: in food, knows a lot about it, has great knife 683 00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:54,239 Speaker 3: skills and cooking skills, and knows how to do it. 684 00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:59,240 Speaker 3: My daughter was always a great baker and enjoyed baking stuff. 685 00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:02,800 Speaker 3: I was off sugar for about three years and for 686 00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:06,240 Speaker 3: my sixtieth birthday, my daughter said, Daddy, if I make 687 00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:08,040 Speaker 3: you a cake, Will you eat a piece? And I 688 00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:10,400 Speaker 3: go sure. I ate that piece of cake and it 689 00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:12,680 Speaker 3: triggered me and I eat ice cream that night. I 690 00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:16,440 Speaker 3: eat the cookies, I eat everything, and I'm ten years later, 691 00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:18,120 Speaker 3: I'm still not able to get off sugar for any 692 00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:22,200 Speaker 3: more than a month or so. And my middle son 693 00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:25,760 Speaker 3: is it doesn't like to eat, so it's like for 694 00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:26,880 Speaker 3: him eating the chore. 695 00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:29,720 Speaker 2: Can we have a moment on the tequila? 696 00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:30,440 Speaker 3: Sure? 697 00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:32,720 Speaker 2: Okay, So tell me how that story started. 698 00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:36,360 Speaker 3: Well, I had a house in San Miguelde Ende in Mexico, 699 00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:40,000 Speaker 3: wonderful old you know, school World Heritage site up in 700 00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:43,200 Speaker 3: the mountains north of Mexico City and the big ax 701 00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:46,240 Speaker 3: Pat population, and there was a bootleg tequila in town 702 00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:49,360 Speaker 3: that all the expats loved because it was so smooth. 703 00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:52,480 Speaker 3: Most tequila has sort of that Wentz factor where you'd 704 00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:56,840 Speaker 3: need some salt or lime making your face grimace, and 705 00:33:56,880 --> 00:33:58,560 Speaker 3: this had none of that. It was smooth. It was 706 00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:03,880 Speaker 3: like a great whiskey. And my son came to visit. 707 00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:05,680 Speaker 3: He was working in Vegas at the time. He brought 708 00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:08,120 Speaker 3: his buddy who ran a nightclub in Vegas, and we 709 00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:10,560 Speaker 3: drank this stuff one night and this stuff came in 710 00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:13,319 Speaker 3: a plastic jug, and his friend said. The next morning, 711 00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:16,239 Speaker 3: he goes, you know, mister quitment, I sell Christal in 712 00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:18,480 Speaker 3: my club for a thousand dollars a bottle, so I 713 00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:20,440 Speaker 3: could get ten thousand dollars a jug for this. And 714 00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:24,120 Speaker 3: I think, wow, there's a business idea. I'm just doing investing, 715 00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:26,480 Speaker 3: then not really working that hard. I go back to 716 00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:30,040 Speaker 3: New York a month or so later, and I sort 717 00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:31,719 Speaker 3: of still thinking about it and sort of think, who 718 00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:34,000 Speaker 3: do I know in this spirit's business? And the dance 719 00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:36,640 Speaker 3: was really no one. Six months later I met a 720 00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:40,880 Speaker 3: party in Brooklyn, meet this interesting Mexican lady, chatting for 721 00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:42,680 Speaker 3: a while, and somewhere in the conversation I says, so 722 00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:44,440 Speaker 3: what do you do for a living? She goes, I 723 00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:48,080 Speaker 3: run Jose Quevo and North America. It's fate. Quit your job, 724 00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:51,040 Speaker 3: come be my partner. Have a great idea. And she 725 00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:53,239 Speaker 3: was sort of wanted to be an entrepreneur, but I mean, 726 00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:56,799 Speaker 3: leaving a good career was tough for her. And about 727 00:34:56,800 --> 00:34:59,120 Speaker 3: two months later I finally commenced her she should do it. 728 00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:02,560 Speaker 3: I'm thinking, naively, we'll just take this illegal stuff and 729 00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:05,680 Speaker 3: make it legal and import it she calls me and said, 730 00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:08,399 Speaker 3: by by bad news, said, I put that tequila through 731 00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:11,759 Speaker 3: a test and guess what is not tequila? They mixed 732 00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:15,080 Speaker 3: to aurguardiante and other stuff with it. So it's not 733 00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:16,920 Speaker 3: nothing we can do with. But I have an idea, 734 00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:20,040 Speaker 3: which she always does, because she's one of those people 735 00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:22,400 Speaker 3: that there's never a problem. Just this problem and solution 736 00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:25,600 Speaker 3: go together, and I go to Mexico. A couple of 737 00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:28,719 Speaker 3: weeks later, she is convinced the master tequila maker of 738 00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:31,520 Speaker 3: Mexico to come out of retirement to do one more tequila. 739 00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:34,839 Speaker 3: And he takes this bootleg stuff and he go, there's 740 00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:38,000 Speaker 3: a process I've always wanted to try on tequila. I'm 741 00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:40,480 Speaker 3: certain I can make this out of one hundred percent 742 00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:43,520 Speaker 3: of gobby, which makes it tequila. And so they I 743 00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:46,520 Speaker 3: gave him some money for a lab. About nine months later, 744 00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:50,719 Speaker 3: they came back with about six variations, and over the 745 00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:53,080 Speaker 3: two day period, we drank them all and picked one. 746 00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:57,480 Speaker 3: And that became consider going a shoven, which is our signature. 747 00:35:57,040 --> 00:35:58,760 Speaker 2: And you picked the one that you thought. 748 00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:01,200 Speaker 3: Was sort of the smooth, This had the most flavor. 749 00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:04,160 Speaker 3: What makes Costa Dragonas so special is the way we 750 00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:06,960 Speaker 3: make it. We preserve the flavor of the agabi. A 751 00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:08,759 Speaker 3: lot of what you taste in tequila is that's sort 752 00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:11,920 Speaker 3: of harsh taste and it's sort of the flavor has 753 00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:14,840 Speaker 3: been burned out of the agabi, and in considragonas if 754 00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:19,520 Speaker 3: you just smell it, you'll pick up pear notes, pepper, citrus, vanilla, 755 00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:22,600 Speaker 3: and so the secret of it is preserving that flavor. 756 00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:24,360 Speaker 3: And it's been great fun. 757 00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:27,120 Speaker 2: Does it tempt you to do something else? Like wine? 758 00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:28,440 Speaker 2: Would you want to buy it? No? 759 00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:31,120 Speaker 3: If I had known how hard it is, I probably 760 00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:33,800 Speaker 3: wouldn't have done this. What started as a lark wound 761 00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:37,719 Speaker 3: up being, you know, a major project. But it's turned 762 00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:38,200 Speaker 3: out well. 763 00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:39,880 Speaker 2: And SOA we had it the other night at the 764 00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:43,080 Speaker 2: River Cafe. I think tequila. Having lived in Mexico for 765 00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:45,960 Speaker 2: four months, I really got used to having tequila with food, 766 00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:48,560 Speaker 2: and not just Mexican food. I think it. You know, 767 00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:51,200 Speaker 2: it's just a drink that you can drink through, do 768 00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:51,960 Speaker 2: you yeah? 769 00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:52,640 Speaker 3: Absolutely? 770 00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:56,360 Speaker 2: So. You have houses all over, whether it's Jamaica or 771 00:36:56,440 --> 00:37:01,719 Speaker 2: Mexico or New York and Miami, and what is when 772 00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:05,520 Speaker 2: you go to those different places? Are you affected by 773 00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:09,120 Speaker 2: the food as well? In Jamaica, do you crave something 774 00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:11,200 Speaker 2: that will be remind you of Jamaica. 775 00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:14,280 Speaker 3: I think when you go to a place, the food's 776 00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:16,720 Speaker 3: a very important part of it. When I go to Jamaica, 777 00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:20,800 Speaker 3: crave jerk. You can't get enough at Aqi saltfish for breakfast. 778 00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:25,120 Speaker 3: There are unique foods there. And when I go to 779 00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:30,359 Speaker 3: La There it's interesting. There is I live very near 780 00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:34,080 Speaker 3: in Venice, Arawan, which is you know, probably what the 781 00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:37,359 Speaker 3: most expensive grocery store was crazy, But it's fun and 782 00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:39,920 Speaker 3: so we sort of play with the food there. Go 783 00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:43,200 Speaker 3: to Malibu. It's mostly seafood that we have there, and 784 00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:48,239 Speaker 3: you know, fresh farm vegetables. Miami has got everything now 785 00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:52,319 Speaker 3: an interesting sort of food capital. New York, of course 786 00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:55,319 Speaker 3: is New York. What do you want? And it's there? 787 00:37:55,800 --> 00:37:59,080 Speaker 3: And I'm building a house in Portugal. That's sort of 788 00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:02,040 Speaker 3: discovering the Portuguese cuisine. 789 00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:04,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, do you have chefs in each No? 790 00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:07,319 Speaker 3: No, no, I don't you just go Yeah, Casey, we'll 791 00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:09,360 Speaker 3: hire somebody to come in and cook. But part of 792 00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:12,240 Speaker 3: the funest cooking ourselves or going out to the restaurant. 793 00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:16,240 Speaker 2: And if food is a sense of discovery, it's also comfort. 794 00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:19,279 Speaker 2: My last question to you on this boat on our 795 00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:23,120 Speaker 2: time together. Is if you were saying that you needed food, 796 00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:27,000 Speaker 2: not to alleviate hunger or to remind you of a memory, 797 00:38:27,160 --> 00:38:29,400 Speaker 2: but you needed comfort. Is there a food that you 798 00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:30,000 Speaker 2: would turn to? 799 00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:37,080 Speaker 3: Ice cream? Ice cream, ice cream, cookies, yea chocolate, okay? 800 00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:40,040 Speaker 3: And if they're poisoned to me, I just have to 801 00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:42,120 Speaker 3: keep them away. If I have them in the refrigerator, 802 00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:44,279 Speaker 3: I'll say, I'm not going to have any and then 803 00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:46,760 Speaker 3: I'll go through the refrigerator, literally look at the freezer 804 00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:48,920 Speaker 3: and walk away, and then I'll get closer to it 805 00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:50,360 Speaker 3: and then I'll open it up and look at it. 806 00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:52,680 Speaker 3: I'm trying to resist that open it up. Then I'll go, 807 00:38:52,719 --> 00:38:55,279 Speaker 3: I'll have one spoonful and then suddenly I've eaten the 808 00:38:55,440 --> 00:38:59,840 Speaker 3: entire container of ice cream. And I'm absolutely, like, you know, 809 00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:03,279 Speaker 3: addict kind of behavior with those comfort foods, and none 810 00:39:03,320 --> 00:39:05,239 Speaker 3: other foods are like take it or leave it. But 811 00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:06,960 Speaker 3: those are the ones that really get me. And by 812 00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:09,279 Speaker 3: the way, and I guess when you say you know 813 00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:11,000 Speaker 3: it's the comfort food, it's the ones that make me 814 00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:13,400 Speaker 3: hate myself for eating them because it's so good and 815 00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:17,400 Speaker 3: so delicious and feels so good and so addictive. 816 00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:20,040 Speaker 2: It looks to me like you look pretty well, you 817 00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:23,000 Speaker 2: talk beautifully. You're my new friend, and I would go 818 00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:23,360 Speaker 2: for it. 819 00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:25,880 Speaker 3: Oh, I love it. Thank you, You've given me great permission. 820 00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:26,759 Speaker 2: I appreciate it. 821 00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:29,280 Speaker 3: Thank you, and thank you for great dinner. 822 00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:31,919 Speaker 2: We had a great many more. 823 00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:39,560 Speaker 1: The River Cafe Look Book is now available in bookshops 824 00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:43,799 Speaker 1: and online. It has over one hundred recipes, beautifully illustrated 825 00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:48,320 Speaker 1: with photographs from the renowned photographer Matthew Donaldson. The book 826 00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:52,239 Speaker 1: has fifty delicious and easy to prepare recipes, including a 827 00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:55,760 Speaker 1: host of River Cafe classics that have been specially adapted 828 00:39:55,800 --> 00:39:59,880 Speaker 1: for new cooks. The River Cafe Look Book Recipes for 829 00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:08,120 Speaker 1: cooks of all ages. Ruthie's Table four is a production 830 00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:12,839 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio and Adami Studios. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, 831 00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:17,280 Speaker 1: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen 832 00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:18,280 Speaker 1: to your favorite shows.