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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome back to the show. My name is Nolan.

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Speaker 1: Our colleague Matt is on an adventure and shall be

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Speaker 1: returning soon. They call me Ben. We are joined, as

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Speaker 1: always with our super producer Dylan, the Tennessee pal Fake

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Speaker 1: and most importantly, you are you. You are here that

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Speaker 1: makes this the stuff they don't want you to know. Noel, Tonight,

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Speaker 1: you and Dylan and I are embarking on the first

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Speaker 1: part of what may be a continuing series. Remember a

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Speaker 1: while back in our listener mail program, we received a

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Speaker 1: letter from a conspiracy realist who was going to She

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Speaker 1: was going to jury duty. She was auditioning for jury duty,

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Speaker 1: and and she received I can't not think of it

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Speaker 1: that way.

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Speaker 2: It's true.

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Speaker 1: What I mean, it's true.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I passed one and I failed one, So you know,

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Speaker 3: I guess that's that's not too bad.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I always what to call back though, right, the approval,

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Speaker 1: the validation.

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Speaker 2: I am sort of until you realize what it entails.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly so this uh, this conspiracy realist received a

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Speaker 1: weird question in her in her jury duty process and

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Speaker 1: they asked her if she had ever been in a

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Speaker 1: state militia, which prompted her to write to us, and

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Speaker 1: we found that this is a concept worth exploring in

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Speaker 1: an episode or possibly a series thereof, because state militias

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Speaker 1: are confusing. They've got a lot of different names. It's

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Speaker 1: surprising that they exist in the United States because the

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Speaker 1: US remains by every single metric no matter what else

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Speaker 1: you think of. When you think of the US, you

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Speaker 1: have to admit it has the world's most powerful and

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Speaker 1: dangerous military yeveral times over. For sure.

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Speaker 3: It's sort of a claim to fame, right, seem to

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Speaker 3: boast about it a little bit on the world stage. Additionally,

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Speaker 3: various states in the United States may well be are

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Speaker 3: in fact home to unsanctioned militaries or militias.

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Speaker 2: Right sort of. I don't know what do you call

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Speaker 2: like improvised military. It's weird. We'll get to it.

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Speaker 3: These are groups of armed individuals united by any number

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Speaker 3: of ideologies and goals, and we're going to talk about

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Speaker 3: some of those goals and ideologies and what doth the

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Speaker 3: militia make or what makes a militia?

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Speaker 1: Mm hmm yeah, because despite having this huge military individual

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Speaker 1: states in this country can be home to their own

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Speaker 1: sanctioned militias and as you said, their own unsanctioned militias.

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Speaker 1: So we're going to pause for word from our sponsors,

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Speaker 1: and when we return, we're going to explore the fact, fiction,

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Speaker 1: and perhaps the danger of some of these organizations. Here

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Speaker 1: are the facts, all right. First question, this was our

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Speaker 1: first question too, What the heck is a state militia?

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Speaker 1: Is it even legal?

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Speaker 3: Well, in the United States, the state militia, also known

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Speaker 3: as a state defense force, is a military.

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Speaker 2: What is paramilitary? Man? I mean, wouldn't this kind of

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Speaker 2: be extra paramilitary?

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Speaker 1: Paramilitary is a very interesting phrase. Sometimes it's used as

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Speaker 1: a curse word. Essentially means a military that is not

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Speaker 1: part of a country's official or legit armed forces. So

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Speaker 1: this happens a lot, for instance in Central and South America,

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Speaker 1: where an armed group, even a terrorist or secessionist group,

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Speaker 1: will describe themselves as the military, and the actual government

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Speaker 1: will say no, no, no, no.

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Speaker 2: Not it. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So I mean, I guess we could definitely say that

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Speaker 3: some of these types of groups we're talking about today

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Speaker 3: could be considered paramilitary, though some of them are considered

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Speaker 3: a military unit that operates under the authority of a

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Speaker 3: state government rather than that of the federal government. That's,

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Speaker 3: of course, when they're the legal versions of these things

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Speaker 3: in that situation. Of those situations, these groups are authorized

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Speaker 3: by state and federal law and under the command of

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Speaker 3: the governor of each state.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, and this gets confusing. It's important walk with

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Speaker 1: us here, folks. These things, the state defense forces are

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Speaker 1: not the same thing as the National Guard. I was

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Speaker 1: going to have National Guard. Yeah yeah, and it's like,

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Speaker 1: why are they different. The big difference is the national

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Speaker 1: Guard of any state can be federalized, can be drawn

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Speaker 1: into the larger armed forces in times of need, and

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Speaker 1: that's been the law of the land ever since the

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Speaker 1: National Defense Act Amendments of nineteen thirty three.

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Speaker 3: They usually refer to it as calling in the National

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Speaker 3: Guard exactly.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. Often you'll see that in maybe the aftermath

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Speaker 1: of a natural disaster or other emergency situation. Uncle SAM

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Speaker 1: recognizes the legality of state defense forces again separate from

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Speaker 1: the National Guard in the Constitution, with one big caveat.

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Speaker 1: They do have to be separate from the Guard and

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Speaker 1: if you are a state defense force.

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Speaker 2: Like we have.

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Speaker 1: One of the most famous would be the Texas Guard. Right,

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Speaker 1: that force cannot be drafted, cannot be called, cannot be

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Speaker 1: ordered into the larger US Armed forces. This is under

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Speaker 1: Freney policy, wonks. This is thirty two US Code oneh nine,

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Speaker 1: Maintenance of Other Troops, which you can read in full online.

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Speaker 1: It's got a weird wonky loophole though. All right, so

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Speaker 1: this is one for all the draft dodgers out there.

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Speaker 2: If you this does not exempt you, right.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, yeah, can you tell us a little more

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Speaker 1: about that.

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Speaker 3: Well, it just it occurred to me what an interesting

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Speaker 3: loophole this is because while the body, the organization, the

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Speaker 3: actual state militia as a fighting unit, cannot be co

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Speaker 3: opted by the US Army or Armed Services, individuals within

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Speaker 3: it because of their service under these sanctioned state groups

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Speaker 3: are not, however, exempt from being drafted as individual human

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Speaker 3: people citizens into the forces.

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Speaker 1: Which is weird. And also, if you are already a

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Speaker 1: member of the reserves, you can't be a member of

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Speaker 1: the state defense force at the same time. So they

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Speaker 1: built this intricate system of yes, nos, right, and every state,

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Speaker 1: well almost every state has laws that authorize some version

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Speaker 1: of a state defense force. Nineteen states plus Puerto Rico

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Speaker 1: right now have active forces with different levels of activity

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Speaker 1: and support and strength. You know, we mentioned the Texas

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Speaker 1: State Guard. There's also an Ohio Naval Guard, which is interesting.

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Speaker 1: We have the equivalent in our home state of Georgia. Basically,

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Speaker 1: these things are the commanding authority of what has been

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Speaker 1: called unorganized militias, which are still also legal technically, but

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Speaker 1: it's a very broad term. And things go wrong, you

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Speaker 1: by friend and Dylan Tennessee, Palfagan and I would be

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Speaker 1: called in to be part of an organized militia like

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Speaker 1: of stuff really went.

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Speaker 3: Bad, right because of our designation as able bodied men

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Speaker 3: between the ages of seventeen and forty five.

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Speaker 1: Yes, who are not already in the armed forces or

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Speaker 1: the national Guard.

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Speaker 2: Got it okay?

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Speaker 3: So maybe, without getting too terribly into the weeds, we

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Speaker 3: can already see how this can get a little confusing,

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Speaker 3: certainly through me for a loop. Certainly a complex and

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Speaker 3: interlocking web of fighting forces, full of kind of bizarre

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Speaker 3: overlapping areas and diagrammy bits and loopholes. So I guess

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Speaker 3: the question is how did we get here? This is

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Speaker 3: not my beautiful house. This is not my beautiful United

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Speaker 3: States Army. This is what is this as a militia?

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Speaker 1: Oh many day go by, right, yea, This idea makes sense,

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Speaker 1: and to understand it we have to travel back to

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Speaker 1: the origin of the United States. In general, an unorganized

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Speaker 1: militia means that in times of dire need, extreme emergency,

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Speaker 1: a state may not be able to rely entirely upon

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Speaker 1: the federal Army, the US Armed Forces, so they need

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Speaker 1: a citizen army they can call up immediately. This is

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Speaker 1: not the same as an unsanctioned, self proclaimed militia, because

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Speaker 1: this army, this unorganized militia, has the approval of the

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Speaker 1: state's governor.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that term though, unorganized militia. It just makes me

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Speaker 3: think they're like running around like chickens with their heads

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Speaker 3: cut off. They don't know which way is.

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Speaker 1: That right, right, shooting each other in the foot.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Benny Hills m h exactly.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, what was that Benny Hill theme? Can we

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Speaker 1: do that real quickly? Oh boy, Dylan's got it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it is, it is, it is. I always pictured Dylan

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Speaker 1: rolling his eyes when we do those. We do those

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Speaker 1: just leap of faith sound cues. But you're excellent at it.

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Speaker 1: Thank you, sir.

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Speaker 2: We love you and we believe in you, Dylan.

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Speaker 3: But but you know now that you've got that image

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Speaker 3: in your head of the Benny Hill style, you know,

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Speaker 3: gunman running around frantically, Let's let's talk about what it

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Speaker 3: really means, what an organized militia really means, and how

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Speaker 3: it pertains or is or is not relevant in our

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Speaker 3: current time.

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Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, So unorganized militias are more or less

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Speaker 1: obsolete in the modern day because we have not reached

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Speaker 1: that level of emergency. But you'll still see them around.

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Speaker 1: The most famous is We're one of the most famous

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Speaker 1: would be the Virginia Militia. Their members do wear uniform,

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Speaker 1: they actively perform military duties. You find them pretty often

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Speaker 1: in various Virginia State military schools. This wasn't always the

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Speaker 1: case because when the US was founded itself a child

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Speaker 1: of conspiracy in the seventeen seventies, all the way up

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Speaker 1: to the early twentieth century, the US only had a

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Speaker 1: minimal like actual Fax Army. As Laura and Vogelbaum would say. Instead,

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Speaker 1: when they got into a tangle, when they got into

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Speaker 1: a scrap, they called upon these state militias to give

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Speaker 1: them the majority of troops for their fighting force. This

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Speaker 1: was not ideal because all the like the troops in

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Speaker 1: Georgia and the troops in I don't know, Rhode Island,

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Speaker 1: may have very different standards of training, right, so some

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Speaker 1: people might as well why be special forces and other

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Speaker 1: guys are like first day ROTC.

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Speaker 3: So they it would vary pretty widely in their ability

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Speaker 3: to deploy like quickly and efficiently from group to group.

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Speaker 3: So let's move forward in time, fast forward, if you will,

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Speaker 3: to the Spanish American War. As a result of the

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Speaker 3: performance from militias and these other volunteer units, Congress did

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Speaker 3: realize that there perhaps was a little inconsistency, let's just say,

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Speaker 3: and they needed to do something about it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, diplomatically put think of it this way, folks, when

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Speaker 1: you go. One of the appeals of fast food is

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Speaker 1: that a McDonald's burger is a McDonald's burger, right, something

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Speaker 1: like it. It's uniform wherever you go. And they in

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Speaker 1: Congress realized they needed everybody on the same page fighting wise.

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Speaker 1: They wanted people at the same level. This leads to

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Speaker 1: the Militia Act of nineteen oh three. That's the ancestor

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Speaker 1: of the modern day National Guard that we have today.

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Speaker 1: During World War One, Congress said, okay, every state, you

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Speaker 1: can maintain what we'll call home guards. They're different from

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Speaker 1: the National Guard, and everyone said, yay.

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Speaker 2: A collective woof if you will.

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Speaker 3: But there is a bit more to the story, and

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Speaker 3: for that we need to move towards the Cold War era.

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Speaker 3: Everyone up until that point kind of agreed that state

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Speaker 3: militias were necessary just in case things, you know, really really.

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Speaker 2: Went south, like you were talking about earlier, Ben But.

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Speaker 3: In Russians there you go, Yeah, red Dawn, they're coming,

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Speaker 3: They're coming. But everything changed in the nineteen eighties when

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Speaker 3: some of these.

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Speaker 2: Groups started to have some issues with corruption.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and mission creep. They we're getting a little too

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Speaker 1: big for their breeches. One of the most infamous examples

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Speaker 1: is nineteen eighty seven, the government of Utah had to

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Speaker 1: clear the house militarily speaking looking at the Utah State Guard,

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Speaker 1: he found that all but thirty one officers had to

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Speaker 1: be fired immediately because the State Guard was absolutely riddled

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Speaker 1: with Neo Nazis, felons and mental patients are This is

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Speaker 1: a quote. This is not us. This is a quote

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Speaker 1: from a paper at the time. The Kentucky New era.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that tracks.

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Speaker 3: So let's fast forward once again for the last time

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Speaker 3: to the present day. So, with the nature of these

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Speaker 3: unorganized militias, these extra military groups kind of starting to

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Speaker 3: be seen as having a bit of a troubled past,

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Speaker 3: you might ask yourself, what do they actually do? I

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Speaker 3: think we've been asking ourselves that from the start. In general,

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Speaker 3: they do focus unmanaging emergency situations as well as participating

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Speaker 3: and protecting homeland security. And most of these are ground troops.

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Speaker 3: There are, however, some that take to the skies and

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Speaker 3: to the seas, but mainly they are ground forces.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, overwhelmingly they are ground forces. And want to

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Speaker 1: plant a seed for us here, fellow conspiracy realists, when

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Speaker 1: you hear the word militia in the United States, what

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Speaker 1: we often are going to think about will be what

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Speaker 1: we will call those unsanctioned militias. Right, not unorganized, because

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Speaker 1: nothing has gone horribly, horribly wrong to the point of

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Speaker 1: the US dissolving. Right, there are no massive foreign militaries

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Speaker 1: attacking you know, Missouri or anything. But we do see,

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Speaker 1: but we do see a lot of concerns that have

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Speaker 1: arisen in recent years about people self proclaiming as militia

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Speaker 1: and then maybe lingering at polling places. The protect those

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Speaker 1: polling places, and they'll say it's not voter intimidation, it's

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Speaker 1: making sure the vote goes right.

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Speaker 3: Okay, I'm a little intimidated just thinking about it, to

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Speaker 3: be honest. So amid this confusion, we see a lot

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Speaker 3: of disturbing problems emerge. While the majority of these folks

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Speaker 3: are acting in good faith, there are of course some

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Speaker 3: to your point, band, who aren't.

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Speaker 2: So what about the groups that claim.

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Speaker 3: To be state militia that by their very nature have

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Speaker 3: very little to know oversight at all, especially from where

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Speaker 3: the you know, the federal government's concerned.

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Speaker 1: And why is this so confusing? Part of it is

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Speaker 1: the depending on the state, these sanctioned groups may have

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Speaker 1: different names entirely state military, state military force, state militia,

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Speaker 1: state military reserve, state, and so on. And with all

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Speaker 1: these terms being flown about, with all these questions about

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Speaker 1: chain of command and the ultimate authority right and the

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Speaker 1: ultimate aims of the organization, it's easy to see chaos

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Speaker 1: and conspiracy blossom. We'll tell you what we mean by

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Speaker 1: that afterward. From our sponsors. Here's where it gets crazy.

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Speaker 1: All right, we know the old problem of standardized training

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Speaker 1: continues in the modern day. No, I'd like to share

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Speaker 1: with everybody a quick story, and fortunately it's a story

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Speaker 1: that's yeah, okay, great, it's a story that's going to

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Speaker 1: be common unfortunately to a lot of us in the

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Speaker 1: audience this evening. So the world's militaries, many of them,

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Speaker 1: especially in the West, they have realized that you need

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Speaker 1: to trade notes in class, right, So a French officer

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Speaker 1: may have an exchange program, or the French military may

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Speaker 1: have an exchange program wherein an officer visits the US

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Speaker 1: and vice versa, and what they see there is even

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Speaker 1: These modern militaries have discovered stark differences, not just in

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Speaker 1: aspects of training, but in aspects of ideology and in

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Speaker 1: aspects of culture. That's why these exchange programs are valuable,

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Speaker 1: because you need to speak the same military language, especially

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Speaker 1: if again things go wrong and you have to have

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Speaker 1: an international ally to help you in whatever global operation

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Speaker 1: or objective you're attempting to achieve. This standardized training stuff

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Speaker 1: is is some it's you know what it is.

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Speaker 2: It's like.

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Speaker 1: It's like an aggravating chore that you always have to do,

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Speaker 1: Like you know, you're washing your car and you realize

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Speaker 1: that you're just going to have to wash it again,

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Speaker 1: but you have to keep washing it because otherwise your

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Speaker 1: car is going to get dirty, you know. Or putting

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Speaker 1: gas in your car. You have to keep putting gas

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Speaker 1: in your car it doesn't break down, or keep charging

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Speaker 1: it so it doesn't break down. Annoying, and that's it's annoying,

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Speaker 1: and it's necessary, and that's kind of where standardized training

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Speaker 1: comes in. It's also just the tip of the iceberg.

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Speaker 1: There's a huge problem with consistency when we talk about

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Speaker 1: legal state militias, and the best way to illustrate it,

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Speaker 1: along with your earlier note about corruption, is to go

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Speaker 1: to a two thousand and seven New York Times investigation

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Speaker 1: which found the problem was way worse, cartoonishly worse than

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Speaker 1: most of us would imagine.

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Speaker 2: Well not yeah.

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Speaker 3: A great investigative journalist for the Times, Paul Vittello, looked

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Speaker 3: specifically into the New York Guard and found that the

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Speaker 3: issue was less with consistency across other organizations of this type,

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Speaker 3: but more with a complete and utter lack of formal

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Speaker 3: military training.

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Speaker 2: Pretty serious stuff.

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Speaker 3: In the article, i Vtello talks to one former commander

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Speaker 3: of the Guard a Pierre.

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Speaker 2: David Lax, who put it to the Veslie.

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Speaker 3: If you are friendly with the governor and you always

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Speaker 3: wanted to be a general, you asked the governor to

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Speaker 3: make you a general, and poof, you're a brigadier general.

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Speaker 1: Who knew it was that easy? Sorry, everybody who went

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Speaker 1: to West Point.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's rough, it is.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. It sounds then that we are we are looking

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Speaker 1: at something that is anathema to an actual armed force,

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Speaker 1: the idea that one could sit like European aristocrats of old,

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Speaker 1: by a title that he did not earn. There's another

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Speaker 1: This article is incredibly interesting. We found it on the

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Speaker 1: New York Times wayback Machine, but you can also find

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Speaker 1: it on web dot archive dot org. And in this

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Speaker 1: we see that Vitello speaks with numerous people who are

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Speaker 1: breaking down some of the uglier or not even ugly like,

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Speaker 1: some of the more disappointing aspects of this state Defense Force.

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Speaker 1: In particular, I want to give you some numbers real quick. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: before mister Lax that you just quoted, there was a

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Speaker 1: guy named George Liebner, and he talks at length about

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Speaker 1: how he recruited politicians for the cause in the nineteen eighties.

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Speaker 1: The New York Guard depend and depends upon largest they

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Speaker 1: need annual grants known as member items. Its budget is

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Speaker 1: about eighty five thousand dollars a year, which is obviously

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Speaker 1: laughably small in comparison to other military budgets. Getting that

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Speaker 1: out there, right. And so this guy Leibner, who was

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Speaker 1: an accountant on Long Island, he said, look, I've got

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Speaker 1: Guard members like State Senator Dean G. Skilos, who is

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Speaker 1: now a colonel, and former Assemblyman Thomas F. Baraga. These

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Speaker 1: are both Long Island Republicans. Oh, and Thomas F. Barraga

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Speaker 1: is a major general in the Guard. And he said,

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Speaker 1: they've sponsored some of these grants because here's the quote.

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Speaker 1: He says, I'm basically giving these guys rank and title

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Speaker 1: because they're supporting us financially. His logic is not inspiring,

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Speaker 1: but it is sound. He says, we could I give

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Speaker 1: these guys accept the title. I'm not stupid. If I

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Speaker 1: ask some political guy to join the New York Guard

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Speaker 1: and support our mission and I offer to make him

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Speaker 1: a private, do you think he's going to join?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Probably?

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Speaker 1: You know what I mean.

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Speaker 3: These guys don't get where they are without a little

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Speaker 3: dash of ego. The article also makes note that the

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Speaker 3: Guard's duties are often pretty ceremonial in nature rather than operational.

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Speaker 3: We see some similar issues that are reflected in multiple

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Speaker 3: other organizations in different states, a trend that kind of

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Speaker 3: causes some critics to dismiss the whole concept.

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Speaker 2: As wanna be warriors, warrior wannabes, the.

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Speaker 3: Idea that some of these state guard folks are just

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Speaker 3: people that couldn't cut it, you know, in the real military,

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Speaker 3: and this was the best they could do, which the

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Speaker 3: implication also being that there might be a bit of

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Speaker 3: a chip on some because of this fact, right, right.

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Speaker 1: And that's that's pretty that's pretty rough. Obviously, we don't

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Speaker 1: want to paint with a broad brush because a lot

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Speaker 1: of these organizations are doing really good work, work that

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Speaker 1: you would call volunteer work. You know, they're paying for

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Speaker 1: their own uniforms, if they have uniforms, they're paying their

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Speaker 1: own way to go to events. And like you said,

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Speaker 1: a lot of these ceremonial functions are still very important

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Speaker 1: emergency preparedness drills, color guards for funerals, you know, security

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Speaker 1: for charity runs and things of that nature. Right, So

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Speaker 1: training stuff this is good for the community overall, but

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Speaker 1: is should account as military right? Should you be able

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Speaker 1: to be a general for donating to a cause? We're

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Speaker 1: going to say no. And a lot of generals, some

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Speaker 1: of whom may be in the audience tonight, certainly ones

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Speaker 1: I've spoken to in the past, would absolutely laugh in

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Speaker 1: a scary way about the idea. Have you ever heard

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Speaker 1: a general laughing personal It's not it's not pleasant.

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Speaker 2: Is it like villainous? When are we talking here?

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Speaker 1: It's very I mean it's.

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Speaker 4: Those we're a politicians. I see where you're going. No,

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Speaker 4: it's for Oh, I don't even want to do it

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Speaker 4: on air. I'll do it when we hang out because

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Speaker 4: see each other later. Ben.

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Speaker 3: Should we get to the question of legitimacy. I think

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Speaker 3: we've sort of started to poke at that one a

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Speaker 3: little bit. But a lot of what we've talked to

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Speaker 3: talked about thus far, at the very least are involving politicians.

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Speaker 3: They're a state oversight to some degree. They are at

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Speaker 3: the very least acknowledged, if not sanctioned, right by the state. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: what about the ones that aren't and that are kind

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Speaker 3: of operating in their own ideological bubbles?

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Speaker 2: Excellent?

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Speaker 1: And that's the segue, folks. So we're going to pause

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Speaker 1: for a word from our sponsors, and then we'll return

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Speaker 1: with perhaps the most disturbing question about state militias fact

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Speaker 1: and fiction, the problem of legitimacy. And we've returned. All right, nol,

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Speaker 1: what do we mean when we talk about legitimacy in

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Speaker 1: this regard.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's certainly the other side of this very intense

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Speaker 3: military commemorative coin. There are numerous groups who call themselves

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Speaker 3: state or regional militias. However, these groups exist with no

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Speaker 3: approval from the proper authorities. There's a really great compilation

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Speaker 3: of fact sheets that Georgetown Law put out state by

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Speaker 3: state on unlawful militias. So regardless of what your stance

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Speaker 3: might be on this issue, it's definitely worth your time

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Speaker 3: to check it out, find your give it a little look,

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Speaker 3: see how it stacks up for you in your neck

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Speaker 3: of the global woods.

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Speaker 2: As Ben would say.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And we pulled up Georgia, of course, because

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Speaker 1: we're very interested in what's happening in Georgia that that

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Speaker 1: affects us immediately. But for every every faction you read,

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Speaker 1: whichever state you go to, you'll find some of the

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Speaker 1: same things, and Georgetown sums it up this way. It's

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Speaker 1: a long quote, but we feel we need to we

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Speaker 1: need to share it in full. They say, the following

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Speaker 1: groups of armed individuals that engage in paramilitary activity or

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Speaker 1: law enforcement functions without being called forth by a governor

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Speaker 1: or the federal government, and without reporting to any government authority,

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Speaker 1: are acting as unauthorized private militias. Go on, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean they're pretty that's pretty explicit.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: They're saying, Look, if someone didn't tell you your law enforcement, sorry, Bukeru,

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Speaker 1: you are not law enforcement. Now you're just a group

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Speaker 1: of guys with guns. Now you're just a posse, you

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Speaker 1: know what I mean, with no marks of legitimacy. So

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Speaker 1: Georgetown continues and they say, look, these unlawful groups quote

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Speaker 1: sometimes trained together and respond to events using firearms and

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Speaker 1: other paramilitary techniques, such as staking out tactical positions, operating

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Speaker 1: in military style formations. They often purport to have authority

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Speaker 1: to engage in military and law enforcement functions such as

437
00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:50,960
Speaker 1: protecting property and engaging in crowd control. So Georgetown here

438
00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:54,560
Speaker 1: is talking about people who take it upon themselves to

439
00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:58,360
Speaker 1: dress in a uniform, maybe show up at a protest,

440
00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:02,959
Speaker 1: sometimes a protest for a cause with which they disagree

441
00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:06,320
Speaker 1: and say, hey, we're just keeping the peace. We're just

442
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:07,080
Speaker 1: keeping the peace.

443
00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:07,680
Speaker 2: You know what I mean.

444
00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:09,560
Speaker 1: Don't push me. I'm not going to push you. You

445
00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:11,360
Speaker 1: will pushing on me. You're pushing on me.

446
00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:13,760
Speaker 2: That's really insisting upon yourself.

447
00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:16,680
Speaker 3: I mean, you know, we certainly heard about some members

448
00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:19,880
Speaker 3: of some groups like this being around during the January

449
00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:24,600
Speaker 3: sixth riots, whatever you want to call it uprising. Does

450
00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:28,240
Speaker 3: this include groups like Proud Boys and some of these

451
00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:33,600
Speaker 3: you know, armed kind of paramilitary seeming groups.

452
00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:39,560
Speaker 1: It can, Yeah, it's it's it's a pickle. I was

453
00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:42,480
Speaker 1: going to call it picklish, it's a bag of badgers,

454
00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:48,000
Speaker 1: because you can be a militant organization, right and it's

455
00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:52,800
Speaker 1: legal to be almost any kind of organization you would

456
00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:55,680
Speaker 1: like to be in the United States, at least on paper.

457
00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:59,000
Speaker 1: And we have to note, to be completely honest, we're

458
00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:03,920
Speaker 1: looking at act and intention here. Action is easy to

459
00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:08,640
Speaker 1: prove legally. Intention is a little bit more difficult to prove.

460
00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:09,280
Speaker 2: Uh.

461
00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:14,760
Speaker 1: You know, regardless of where anybody stands on the issue

462
00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:19,640
Speaker 1: at hand, there is absolutely nothing illegal in the United

463
00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:23,520
Speaker 1: States about getting together to just shoot guns with your

464
00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:27,920
Speaker 1: buddies or practice. I'm gonna I'm not gonna be dismissive,

465
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:29,840
Speaker 1: but to practice choreography.

466
00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:35,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, run some formation, run some drills. Whatever, that's your bunker,

467
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:38,440
Speaker 3: you know, your whatever it is, barn.

468
00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:38,720
Speaker 2: Types of dout.

469
00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:40,960
Speaker 3: I mean, it also makes me think of groups like

470
00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:43,200
Speaker 3: forget the name or if they had an official name,

471
00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:45,800
Speaker 3: but like Aiman Bundy, that was a militia, right, it

472
00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:48,880
Speaker 3: wasn't like I mean, David Koresh, you know, things like

473
00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:52,280
Speaker 3: that weren't those kind of militias. But I guess it's

474
00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:55,720
Speaker 3: about it's about action and intention right as to whether

475
00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:59,360
Speaker 3: you're a terrorist group or a militia or a cult.

476
00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:02,040
Speaker 3: I don't mean to muddy the waters here, Ben, but

477
00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:03,840
Speaker 3: I do think it's maybe worth it aside.

478
00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:10,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, I agree with you. So the Branch Davidians

479
00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:15,840
Speaker 1: started as as a cult or spiritual belief system before

480
00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:21,720
Speaker 1: Koresh came in and usurped things, and under the Korreesh regime,

481
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:28,960
Speaker 1: the Branch Davidians became increasingly like an increasingly militant organization

482
00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:33,880
Speaker 1: and apocalyptic and their reasoning right, these these things that

483
00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:40,000
Speaker 1: we would call unsanctioned militias do come from militant organizations,

484
00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:43,320
Speaker 1: and they don't all have the same aims. They don't

485
00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:46,760
Speaker 1: all have the same objectives, right. A lot of times

486
00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:51,440
Speaker 1: you'll find two different groups and they describe themselves as

487
00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:54,360
Speaker 1: you know, the last real Americans, and they might meet

488
00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:58,320
Speaker 1: each other and hate each other and totally disagree on

489
00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:02,560
Speaker 1: everything else becase because real American means one thing to

490
00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:05,120
Speaker 1: one group and another thing to the other group.

491
00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:08,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, And it also kind of leads me to the

492
00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:13,360
Speaker 3: question of intention again, Like, is when you use the

493
00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:17,800
Speaker 3: term militia versus like armed terrorist group or what have you?

494
00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:21,640
Speaker 3: Are is the intention typically when you're talking about militia,

495
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:26,880
Speaker 3: about nationalism and about protecting you know, what's ours, what's

496
00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:29,400
Speaker 3: theirs in terms of their little piece of the United States?

497
00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:30,760
Speaker 2: Or is it greater than that?

498
00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:34,160
Speaker 3: The sanction ones certainly seem like they're designed and meant

499
00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:37,719
Speaker 3: to aid, you know, the state or the country at large.

500
00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:41,440
Speaker 3: But some of these where the ideology gets a little trickier,

501
00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:45,400
Speaker 3: their aims seem to be a little bit amorphist to me.

502
00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:48,360
Speaker 3: But I just wonder if that term militia does require

503
00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:51,560
Speaker 3: some nationalistic leaning.

504
00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:59,160
Speaker 1: Often yes, Yeah, because a terrorist operation or a terrorist

505
00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:05,520
Speaker 1: organization would be attempting to attack the United States. Now,

506
00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:12,959
Speaker 1: there are cases of militant groups or militant militia affiliated

507
00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:17,640
Speaker 1: individuals who commit acts that we would legally consider terrorism.

508
00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:20,440
Speaker 1: They don't think of themselves as terrorists. They think of

509
00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:24,640
Speaker 1: themselves as agents of the greater good. Again, as I

510
00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:27,880
Speaker 1: said earlier, the tricky thing is the intention, right, And

511
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:30,560
Speaker 1: there's been a lot of work done by the FBI,

512
00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:35,800
Speaker 1: by various branches of law enforcement, and by some really

513
00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:42,840
Speaker 1: ballsy journalists, honestly journalists and authors to get a better

514
00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:47,520
Speaker 1: understanding of these groups, right, which again are disparate, divided,

515
00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:52,880
Speaker 1: driven by different goals. And in that what we find

516
00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:59,960
Speaker 1: is that often, often here in the US, these unsanctioned

517
00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:04,360
Speaker 1: and militias do see themselves as a defensive force. And

518
00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:09,640
Speaker 1: often the reasoning may be one of preparedness for an

519
00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:15,120
Speaker 1: inevitable disaster or compromise of civilization, rule of law, or

520
00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:19,440
Speaker 1: they may think that collapse has already occurred and they're

521
00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:22,640
Speaker 1: fighting to, you know, as you said, protect what they

522
00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:26,640
Speaker 1: see as theirs. But if they're peacefully assembling, that's that's

523
00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:29,720
Speaker 1: in the constitution too, you know, that's in the letter

524
00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:30,239
Speaker 1: of the law.

525
00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:34,120
Speaker 3: Get together in terms I mean, you know, right in

526
00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:37,680
Speaker 3: terms of the ability to bear arms at least in

527
00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:40,759
Speaker 3: and of itself. And to your point, Ben, it's not

528
00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:45,080
Speaker 3: until they do something untoward. Let's just say that they

529
00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:48,040
Speaker 3: are breaking the law just assembling and hanging out, maybe

530
00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:50,480
Speaker 3: even sleeping in bunks and maybe doing a little prepping

531
00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:53,799
Speaker 3: and having some ideas that maybe others might find a

532
00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:55,960
Speaker 3: little over the top. None of those things in and

533
00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:57,080
Speaker 3: of themselves are illegal.

534
00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:02,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like, think about this, gone to I've gone to

535
00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:08,960
Speaker 1: weekend trips where you are essentially taking a workshop on

536
00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:16,120
Speaker 1: various aspects of things like survivalism or you know, firearm training,

537
00:35:16,239 --> 00:35:20,560
Speaker 1: things like that, totally legal. How many of those trips

538
00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:23,960
Speaker 1: can I take before I get on a list? Spoiler,

539
00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:26,200
Speaker 1: it's not the number of trips you take, it's the

540
00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:29,640
Speaker 1: organizations that run the trip that's what gets you on

541
00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:34,240
Speaker 1: a list. It's weird because it's such a murky, blurred line.

542
00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:37,640
Speaker 1: It's what our British friends would call a sticky wicket.

543
00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:41,919
Speaker 1: So where is the line between this idea of assembling,

544
00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:45,640
Speaker 1: your right to bear arms guaranteed by the Second Amendment,

545
00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:50,719
Speaker 1: your right to assemble peacefully, your right to prepare for

546
00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:54,600
Speaker 1: the possibility of disaster and instability in the future. That's

547
00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:57,520
Speaker 1: all fine, But when does it become illegal? This is

548
00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:00,440
Speaker 1: where we go back to the legal experts. Let's pull

549
00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:02,840
Speaker 1: a quote I can't remember. This may be from Cornell,

550
00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:08,239
Speaker 1: it maybe from Georgetown, but in general, in general, it's

551
00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:13,240
Speaker 1: so weird, man, because they're they're not describing a specific

552
00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:18,359
Speaker 1: instance of law, right, they're not. They're not giving us

553
00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:21,960
Speaker 1: a rubric. They're saying things like It kind of reminds

554
00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:24,480
Speaker 1: me of the old PSAs, where they would say, here

555
00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:27,160
Speaker 1: are some signs that your kids might be on the pot.

556
00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:33,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, they're worshiping the devil. Yes, you know some flags, let's.

557
00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:37,560
Speaker 3: Just say some some star signposts. Things like wearing military

558
00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:45,120
Speaker 3: style uniforms, you know, possessing and deploying tactical gear, having

559
00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:49,520
Speaker 3: some sort of identifying insignia, you know, on their military

560
00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:54,880
Speaker 3: style uniforms, carrying, wielding using firearms or other such weapons.

561
00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:56,640
Speaker 3: And here's a thing that kind of throws me a

562
00:36:56,680 --> 00:37:00,319
Speaker 3: little bit. Operating within a coordinated command structure. So to

563
00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:03,000
Speaker 3: your question, Ben, or your point, like, at what point

564
00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:06,200
Speaker 3: does it go from being this kind of like simulation,

565
00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:11,160
Speaker 3: you know, workshop thing, to actually running ops to having

566
00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:15,680
Speaker 3: that coordinated command structure seems like it's heading in that direction,

567
00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:17,600
Speaker 3: or it could be heading in that direction, and it's

568
00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:20,560
Speaker 3: a little scary for that command structure to kind of

569
00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:23,239
Speaker 3: operate in a vacuum.

570
00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:28,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, that command structure is key, and I'm happy that

571
00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:32,800
Speaker 1: that you clocked out as well. A coordinated command structure

572
00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:36,440
Speaker 1: the logistics behind the thing can be a big flag,

573
00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:41,840
Speaker 1: as you noted, because when you have a command structure,

574
00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:46,719
Speaker 1: you might also begin to have designation of rank. Now

575
00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:50,560
Speaker 1: it's not just saying, oh, this guy they call Ben

576
00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:56,479
Speaker 1: is calling the shots over at our bunker compound. Now

577
00:37:56,520 --> 00:38:04,640
Speaker 1: it's you know, Brigadier eighteen star, a start whatever. Because

578
00:38:04,640 --> 00:38:05,480
Speaker 1: they're making it up.

579
00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:08,040
Speaker 2: They're making it up. Okay, I follow.

580
00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:14,000
Speaker 1: You know, he told the adjutant Donkey Wonk or whatever

581
00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:18,720
Speaker 1: in Idaho that it's time to move the aks across

582
00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:23,040
Speaker 1: state lines and make sure that they make sure that

583
00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:27,279
Speaker 1: if anyone pulls us over on the road, they contact

584
00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:32,200
Speaker 1: the guy in the the guy in law enforcement who's

585
00:38:32,239 --> 00:38:34,000
Speaker 1: also with the cause that game.

586
00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:36,880
Speaker 3: So at that point, we're talking about kind of co

587
00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:42,239
Speaker 3: opting other parts of legally recognized you know, branches of

588
00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:45,080
Speaker 3: state and federal government. I guess The question then becomes

589
00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:49,800
Speaker 3: about scale and also about running these type of ops

590
00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:53,560
Speaker 3: that you're talking about. At what point do you go

591
00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:58,560
Speaker 3: from being a humble militia to being a genuine paramilitary

592
00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:03,160
Speaker 3: force to be wrecked and with operating outside of the

593
00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:08,360
Speaker 3: real deal, you know, military operated by the US government,

594
00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:13,000
Speaker 3: possibly with very different goals and aims, possibly even with

595
00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:18,120
Speaker 3: goals to overthrow parts of the governments and military.

596
00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:22,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is a series of great questions and we

597
00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:26,560
Speaker 1: may not be able to answer them all this evening.

598
00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:30,399
Speaker 1: Let's go to some crazy facts. These are These are

599
00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:33,320
Speaker 1: facts that not everybody likes to hear on the political

600
00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:35,280
Speaker 1: right or the political left.

601
00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:36,040
Speaker 2: Uh.

602
00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:40,280
Speaker 1: The Second Amendment does guarantee the right to bear arms.

603
00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:45,799
Speaker 3: Sorry, every time I hear that, Ben, Yeah, you know,

604
00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:48,960
Speaker 3: I got my bare arms coming to exactly.

605
00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:52,080
Speaker 1: I think about that too. As a pause is just

606
00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:57,319
Speaker 1: go god, we love this joke. So, in guaranteeing the

607
00:39:57,440 --> 00:40:02,800
Speaker 1: right to bear arms, the Second Amendment does not allow

608
00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:06,000
Speaker 1: for private paramilitary organizations.

609
00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:08,640
Speaker 2: But they just said that they do allow it though

610
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:09,960
Speaker 2: the military.

611
00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:13,960
Speaker 1: No, no, we said, we said they allow for peaceful

612
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:18,759
Speaker 1: assembly and you can have firearms and if the governor

613
00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:21,680
Speaker 1: of a state approves something you can have a state

614
00:40:21,719 --> 00:40:25,120
Speaker 1: defense force, but we can't all you know, at our

615
00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:28,480
Speaker 1: upcoming live show in Brooklyn, we can't all of a

616
00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:36,160
Speaker 1: sudden herald the creation of the Williamsburg Strike Force and

617
00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:40,640
Speaker 1: then give ourselves all titles, uniforms, guns, and begin training.

618
00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:43,440
Speaker 2: Can I be the bagman? That's a military term.

619
00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:47,879
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, for sure, Brigadier bag man.

620
00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:51,200
Speaker 2: Okay, Oh, I love that. I even play the bagpipes

621
00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:53,719
Speaker 2: when we march on Washington.

622
00:40:54,680 --> 00:41:01,439
Speaker 1: Great great or we march on yeah, you know the city.

623
00:41:01,880 --> 00:41:03,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, there we go.

624
00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:10,239
Speaker 1: The Supreme Court decided that private paramilitary organizations, meaning those

625
00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:16,960
Speaker 1: unsanctioned by any representative of government. They said this was illegal,

626
00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:20,600
Speaker 1: not once, but twice because it keeps coming up. Scots

627
00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:23,360
Speaker 1: knocked it down in eighteen eighty six and then again

628
00:41:23,719 --> 00:41:25,320
Speaker 1: in two thousand and eight because.

629
00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:26,799
Speaker 3: It didn't take the first time. I guess I wonder

630
00:41:26,840 --> 00:41:29,279
Speaker 3: if it took the second time. Spoiler alert, I mean,

631
00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:32,640
Speaker 3: I guess. Is the sticky wickets that's right, the sticky

632
00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:35,160
Speaker 3: wicket though that you mentioned earlier, Ben, is at what

633
00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:39,920
Speaker 3: point do it's so vague as to when a militia

634
00:41:40,360 --> 00:41:45,760
Speaker 3: moves into the territory of paramilitary force and You can't

635
00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:48,960
Speaker 3: really know unless I guess there are certain quote unquote

636
00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:52,000
Speaker 3: militias that are maybe approaching that that are being monitored

637
00:41:52,239 --> 00:41:55,560
Speaker 3: right because they're we're thinking they're going to make a move.

638
00:41:55,640 --> 00:41:57,440
Speaker 3: Can we talk about that aspect of it a little bit,

639
00:41:57,880 --> 00:42:00,520
Speaker 3: some of the surveillance. Sure, how far that goes and

640
00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:03,520
Speaker 3: what puts you on the radar of the federal government.

641
00:42:04,880 --> 00:42:07,799
Speaker 1: I like that you're pointing this out yet, because we

642
00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:11,440
Speaker 1: need to look at the other side of this. Again.

643
00:42:11,719 --> 00:42:18,279
Speaker 1: There are many people, many organizations, volunteer organizations that have

644
00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:22,879
Speaker 1: perhaps been unfairly targeted by mass surveillance. You know, I'm

645
00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:25,920
Speaker 1: sure we have a lot of folks in the audience

646
00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:29,000
Speaker 1: tonight who are saying, well, yeah, I train, or yes,

647
00:42:29,120 --> 00:42:32,480
Speaker 1: I'm what you will call a prepper, you know what

648
00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:34,560
Speaker 1: I mean. But I'm not trying to break the law.

649
00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:39,080
Speaker 1: I'm just trying to be prepared like any good boy scout.

650
00:42:39,360 --> 00:42:43,240
Speaker 1: So why am I getting targeted? When we see threats

651
00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:49,320
Speaker 1: to the rule of law on a local, regional, federal level,

652
00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:58,080
Speaker 1: then we, in theory also see constant investigation monitoring infiltration

653
00:42:59,040 --> 00:43:03,920
Speaker 1: are to argue that the conspiracy the infiltration attempts occur

654
00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:09,880
Speaker 1: on both sides, So the FBI or the state level

655
00:43:09,960 --> 00:43:13,239
Speaker 1: version of it, like here in Georgia we have the GBI,

656
00:43:13,480 --> 00:43:17,760
Speaker 1: the Georgia Bureau of Investigation. They will monitor these things

657
00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:21,040
Speaker 1: in concert with the FBI and concert with local law enforcement.

658
00:43:21,080 --> 00:43:25,799
Speaker 1: They may send somebody in to learn more about an organization,

659
00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:28,920
Speaker 1: more about what they actually want to do. Is this

660
00:43:29,040 --> 00:43:32,960
Speaker 1: a neo Nazi organization? Is this a hate group of

661
00:43:33,040 --> 00:43:37,560
Speaker 1: some kind, a supremacist group of some kind, or are

662
00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:42,200
Speaker 1: these people who I don't know. It's nuts because I

663
00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:46,360
Speaker 1: have always suspected I've never really looked into this, but

664
00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:51,520
Speaker 1: I've always suspected the monitoring drills down so far that

665
00:43:51,640 --> 00:43:54,680
Speaker 1: at least a few undercover folks have even gone to

666
00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:58,680
Speaker 1: civil war reenactments just to check in, just to be like, hey,

667
00:43:58,680 --> 00:44:02,200
Speaker 1: you guys know this is re enactment, right.

668
00:44:02,320 --> 00:44:06,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, but just for funzies all fifty states. However,

669
00:44:06,840 --> 00:44:09,359
Speaker 3: I guess to answer my own question from earlier, they

670
00:44:09,840 --> 00:44:16,000
Speaker 3: don't prohibit the organizations themselves, but they do prohibit these

671
00:44:16,320 --> 00:44:21,440
Speaker 3: unauthorized military militia rather in military units, from engaging in

672
00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:24,760
Speaker 3: activities that would typically be reserved for the state militia,

673
00:44:24,960 --> 00:44:30,759
Speaker 3: and that includes peacekeeping efforts you know, enforcing the law.

674
00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:35,920
Speaker 1: Right right, Like when you start trying to run checkpoints

675
00:44:36,760 --> 00:44:40,400
Speaker 1: at the edge of your town, that is something law

676
00:44:40,520 --> 00:44:44,360
Speaker 1: enforcement needs to do. That is something that the sheriff

677
00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:48,120
Speaker 1: should be in charge of, you know, not us, not us.

678
00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:48,560
Speaker 2: In the gang.

679
00:44:50,440 --> 00:44:53,200
Speaker 1: You well, like on what authority are you stopping that car?

680
00:44:53,760 --> 00:44:56,839
Speaker 1: That's that's a great example of where this stuff can

681
00:44:56,840 --> 00:44:57,680
Speaker 1: get pretty crazy.

682
00:44:57,719 --> 00:45:00,319
Speaker 2: Well, at the end of the day, you know, might

683
00:45:00,440 --> 00:45:01,560
Speaker 2: makes right, I.

684
00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:05,480
Speaker 3: Mean not really, but you know, if you have a gun,

685
00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:08,120
Speaker 3: that's enough to enforce it. If you've got enough people

686
00:45:08,160 --> 00:45:10,839
Speaker 3: behind you with the gun, that.

687
00:45:10,880 --> 00:45:13,560
Speaker 2: Are all you know, moving towards the same goals.

688
00:45:14,320 --> 00:45:16,319
Speaker 3: So like I mean, at the end of the day,

689
00:45:16,520 --> 00:45:20,640
Speaker 3: if a militia, a private militia were to develop or

690
00:45:20,719 --> 00:45:24,799
Speaker 3: go unnoticed or whatever and combine forces, perhaps with some

691
00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:31,000
Speaker 3: other groups that could potentially rival larger, more organized state militias,

692
00:45:31,400 --> 00:45:33,480
Speaker 3: they'd be the ones than charge, wouldn't.

693
00:45:33,120 --> 00:45:37,720
Speaker 1: They If things go wrong, if the rule of law

694
00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:41,080
Speaker 1: does not hold, that's exactly right. And that's the thing. Yeah,

695
00:45:41,160 --> 00:45:45,120
Speaker 1: the rule of law is a is a social covenant.

696
00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:48,600
Speaker 1: You know. It's kind of like how people have faith

697
00:45:48,800 --> 00:45:53,920
Speaker 1: in the stock market, or people have faith in physical currency,

698
00:45:54,120 --> 00:45:57,640
Speaker 1: it works so long as everybody agrees that it works well.

699
00:45:57,680 --> 00:45:59,399
Speaker 3: And I think we're seeing a lot of this too

700
00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:04,000
Speaker 3: in the current administration and their ability to just kind

701
00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:08,080
Speaker 3: of try things out and go against this sort of

702
00:46:08,120 --> 00:46:11,880
Speaker 3: decorum of what a president or what a government or

703
00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:16,080
Speaker 3: presidential cabinet is historically meant to do and meant to be,

704
00:46:16,960 --> 00:46:18,720
Speaker 3: and you sort of realize that the only thing holding

705
00:46:18,760 --> 00:46:21,360
Speaker 3: all this together is people kind of just behaving themselves

706
00:46:22,880 --> 00:46:25,799
Speaker 3: in the past, and then the moment someone decides to,

707
00:46:26,440 --> 00:46:29,320
Speaker 3: you know, get ballsy with it and test the waters.

708
00:46:29,360 --> 00:46:31,560
Speaker 2: There aren't a whole lot of things in place to

709
00:46:31,640 --> 00:46:32,560
Speaker 2: keep them from doing that.

710
00:46:35,040 --> 00:46:40,040
Speaker 1: There are a whole lot of things written to prevent that,

711
00:46:40,320 --> 00:46:43,480
Speaker 1: but I've never seen a piece of paper stop a

712
00:46:43,520 --> 00:46:47,200
Speaker 1: bullet exactly. Is the very cold way to say it.

713
00:46:47,239 --> 00:46:50,680
Speaker 1: And you know, there's another fact that gets ignored in

714
00:46:50,960 --> 00:46:56,920
Speaker 1: mainstream media. It's this government overreach can be real. Government

715
00:46:57,040 --> 00:47:01,800
Speaker 1: forces get the privilege of deciding at their own discretion

716
00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:06,600
Speaker 1: which groups are or are not considered illegal militia, and

717
00:47:06,680 --> 00:47:10,480
Speaker 1: it's completely possible that some groups can be unfairly targeted.

718
00:47:10,520 --> 00:47:13,040
Speaker 1: You do not have to look too far back into

719
00:47:13,160 --> 00:47:17,080
Speaker 1: American history to find multiple examples of this. Think of

720
00:47:17,080 --> 00:47:20,920
Speaker 1: the civil rights movement, right. You know, the think of

721
00:47:21,120 --> 00:47:26,399
Speaker 1: gun control is nowadays a pretty wholesome and well intentioned

722
00:47:26,640 --> 00:47:30,400
Speaker 1: concept in the modern version. Now, critics of gun control

723
00:47:30,560 --> 00:47:34,920
Speaker 1: obviously are going to say an orwelly enforce is taking

724
00:47:34,920 --> 00:47:38,600
Speaker 1: away your right to protect it so yourself, and once

725
00:47:38,680 --> 00:47:41,440
Speaker 1: that right is gone, you'll never get it back. We

726
00:47:41,560 --> 00:47:45,040
Speaker 1: understand that we're giving you that argument, that perspective, But

727
00:47:45,160 --> 00:47:48,200
Speaker 1: then flip it and think about the fact that people

728
00:47:48,239 --> 00:47:50,600
Speaker 1: who are proponents of gun control are saying, hey, we

729
00:47:50,719 --> 00:47:56,280
Speaker 1: have an extraordinary and disgusting amount of mass shootings, chill shootings,

730
00:47:56,360 --> 00:48:02,200
Speaker 1: especially right this could be prevent and the fastest answer

731
00:48:02,280 --> 00:48:07,040
Speaker 1: save proponents of gun control obviously is to is to

732
00:48:07,080 --> 00:48:13,040
Speaker 1: fix these firearm laws. But the origin of gun control

733
00:48:13,040 --> 00:48:18,440
Speaker 1: in the US today, the concept itself, as well intentioned

734
00:48:18,480 --> 00:48:21,239
Speaker 1: as it is, as wholesome as it is in its

735
00:48:21,360 --> 00:48:25,239
Speaker 1: modern version, as aspirational noble as it is, it has

736
00:48:25,280 --> 00:48:29,560
Speaker 1: some pretty disturbing racist roots at its foundation. Because people

737
00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:32,600
Speaker 1: got the powers that be got a lot more concerned

738
00:48:32,640 --> 00:48:38,160
Speaker 1: about gun control when they saw African American people. Sure

739
00:48:38,400 --> 00:48:46,160
Speaker 1: organizations exactly right self defense initiatives. That is part of

740
00:48:46,160 --> 00:48:50,080
Speaker 1: what triggered gun control as a rationale to smack down

741
00:48:50,320 --> 00:48:52,680
Speaker 1: those folks. And we're not saying that's the case now,

742
00:48:53,040 --> 00:48:57,720
Speaker 1: but we're saying it's important to acknowledge that these wholesome

743
00:48:57,760 --> 00:49:01,680
Speaker 1: things can somehow sometimes have in city as origins. You know.

744
00:49:01,840 --> 00:49:05,120
Speaker 1: The this this gets us back to this militia thing,

745
00:49:05,160 --> 00:49:08,160
Speaker 1: because you could call something a militia if you just

746
00:49:08,440 --> 00:49:12,480
Speaker 1: objected to the people right, peaceful protesters, you know, and

747
00:49:12,520 --> 00:49:16,040
Speaker 1: there's maybe there's a there's a group of gun toting vegans.

748
00:49:16,360 --> 00:49:19,560
Speaker 1: They're not gonna you know, they're not going to overrun

749
00:49:19,680 --> 00:49:22,360
Speaker 1: the zoo or any or like a meat packing plant

750
00:49:22,520 --> 00:49:26,000
Speaker 1: or anything. Uh, They're just doing weird commune lifestyle thing.

751
00:49:26,040 --> 00:49:28,400
Speaker 1: And now you call them a militia because you don't

752
00:49:28,520 --> 00:49:28,879
Speaker 1: like them.

753
00:49:29,040 --> 00:49:32,920
Speaker 3: Well, it's like the term radical, you know, like nobody

754
00:49:32,960 --> 00:49:36,640
Speaker 3: calls themselves radicals. It's just the opposition that call you

755
00:49:36,760 --> 00:49:42,400
Speaker 3: radicals as a term of abuse or a thought terminating cliche.

756
00:49:43,040 --> 00:49:47,000
Speaker 1: Yes, a thought terminating cliche where a phrase is weaponized

757
00:49:47,360 --> 00:49:52,040
Speaker 1: to avoid further scrutiny. And again, to bring it all together,

758
00:49:53,080 --> 00:49:56,960
Speaker 1: these concerns are coming up because the laws are confusing,

759
00:49:57,080 --> 00:50:01,040
Speaker 1: because things are amorphous, and because they there are loopholes

760
00:50:01,160 --> 00:50:04,759
Speaker 1: that can be exploited. This is only the beginning of

761
00:50:04,800 --> 00:50:08,120
Speaker 1: a larger conversation, folks, thanks for tuning in. The big

762
00:50:08,160 --> 00:50:13,360
Speaker 1: takeaway here is that yes, state defense forces are legal,

763
00:50:14,239 --> 00:50:18,440
Speaker 1: and yes there are groups that say they are state

764
00:50:18,480 --> 00:50:22,760
Speaker 1: defense forces or aspire to be, and those are, depending

765
00:50:22,840 --> 00:50:27,239
Speaker 1: on their actions and intentions, very much not legal. And

766
00:50:27,280 --> 00:50:28,840
Speaker 1: the line is a gradient.

767
00:50:29,000 --> 00:50:32,040
Speaker 3: But there are versions of them depending on their actions

768
00:50:32,040 --> 00:50:36,200
Speaker 3: and intentions that could be considered just five one hundred.

769
00:50:35,960 --> 00:50:39,720
Speaker 1: Percent yeah, until they go paramilitary. This is a pickle.

770
00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:43,080
Speaker 1: We're raising more questions than answers, which is why this

771
00:50:43,200 --> 00:50:47,080
Speaker 1: is why we consider this a part one of a

772
00:50:47,200 --> 00:50:50,279
Speaker 1: larger exploration. And we'd love to hear more from you,

773
00:50:50,440 --> 00:50:54,760
Speaker 1: fellow conspiracy realist. Have you been involved with a local

774
00:50:55,000 --> 00:50:58,680
Speaker 1: militia or a state defense force? Are you currently involved

775
00:50:58,719 --> 00:51:02,640
Speaker 1: with one, sanctioned or un sanctioned. We cannot stress this enough.

776
00:51:02,719 --> 00:51:05,160
Speaker 1: The law in your part of the US may differ.

777
00:51:05,400 --> 00:51:08,120
Speaker 1: We'd also love to hear from folks in other parts,

778
00:51:08,719 --> 00:51:11,040
Speaker 1: like what's it like in your neck of the Global

779
00:51:11,040 --> 00:51:13,759
Speaker 1: Woods if you don't live in the United States, how

780
00:51:13,760 --> 00:51:18,120
Speaker 1: does your country treat these organizations? What do those organizations do,

781
00:51:18,560 --> 00:51:21,080
Speaker 1: How do they work? How do the laws around the work.

782
00:51:21,320 --> 00:51:23,920
Speaker 1: We cannot wait to hear from you. We may have

783
00:51:23,960 --> 00:51:27,439
Speaker 1: a part two on the way. Again. We're with you.

784
00:51:27,600 --> 00:51:32,560
Speaker 1: We're sussing this out ourselves, and we'd love your help.

785
00:51:32,600 --> 00:51:34,120
Speaker 1: You can find us online. You can find us on

786
00:51:34,120 --> 00:51:36,560
Speaker 1: an email. You can find us on a telephonic device.

787
00:51:37,040 --> 00:51:39,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, first, and foremost on that foremost, just first. You

788
00:51:39,760 --> 00:51:41,919
Speaker 3: can find us all over the internet at the handle

789
00:51:41,920 --> 00:51:44,320
Speaker 3: Conspiracy Stuff, where we exist on Facebook with our Facebook

790
00:51:44,320 --> 00:51:46,719
Speaker 3: group Here's where it gets crazy, on YouTube where we

791
00:51:46,719 --> 00:51:49,839
Speaker 3: have video content Glory for your perusing enjoyment, as well

792
00:51:49,880 --> 00:51:53,160
Speaker 3: as on xfka, Twitter, on Instagram and TikTok. However, we're

793
00:51:53,200 --> 00:51:57,919
Speaker 3: Conspiracy Stuff Show and also we're people. I'm how now

794
00:51:57,960 --> 00:51:59,960
Speaker 3: Noel Brown on Instagram. How about you, Ben?

795
00:52:01,440 --> 00:52:05,359
Speaker 1: You can find me at a Philip Lawn Instagram. You

796
00:52:05,480 --> 00:52:11,359
Speaker 1: can also go meet me at the appropriate monument at

797
00:52:11,400 --> 00:52:18,520
Speaker 1: midnight ins of your city. Midnight monument coming soon to

798
00:52:18,800 --> 00:52:22,640
Speaker 1: a moonless night near you. You can also, if you

799
00:52:22,719 --> 00:52:24,680
Speaker 1: wish and the rumors are true, here and will give

800
00:52:24,800 --> 00:52:26,600
Speaker 1: us a call on a telephonic device.

801
00:52:26,960 --> 00:52:27,359
Speaker 2: That's all right.

802
00:52:27,400 --> 00:52:30,880
Speaker 3: We're one eight three three std wit K you can

803
00:52:31,000 --> 00:52:34,680
Speaker 3: leave a voicemail message of your choosing, tell us what

804
00:52:34,880 --> 00:52:38,200
Speaker 3: you think about an episode, give us ideas for another episode.

805
00:52:38,520 --> 00:52:41,600
Speaker 3: The time is yours and yours alone. Just be sure

806
00:52:41,640 --> 00:52:43,640
Speaker 3: to give yourself a clever nickname. Doesn't that to be

807
00:52:43,640 --> 00:52:45,480
Speaker 3: clever even just a nickname? And let us know if

808
00:52:45,520 --> 00:52:48,760
Speaker 3: it's cool to use your message on the air. And Ben,

809
00:52:48,880 --> 00:52:50,919
Speaker 3: could we do a quick plug for this thing we're doing.

810
00:52:50,960 --> 00:52:53,439
Speaker 3: We're doing a live show as part of on Air

811
00:52:53,480 --> 00:52:57,960
Speaker 3: Fest on February nineteenth at this incredible venue called National

812
00:52:58,000 --> 00:52:59,960
Speaker 3: Sawdust in Williamsburg, Brooklyn.

813
00:53:01,160 --> 00:53:04,319
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, the rumors are true. Stuff they don't want

814
00:53:04,360 --> 00:53:08,040
Speaker 1: you to know presents a conspiracy of sound. We don't

815
00:53:08,040 --> 00:53:10,040
Speaker 1: want to spoil it too much, but we've got a

816
00:53:10,040 --> 00:53:13,960
Speaker 1: lot of surprises for you ahead. We'll see. Let's say

817
00:53:14,000 --> 00:53:16,839
Speaker 1: it this way. You can see the show at seven

818
00:53:16,840 --> 00:53:21,520
Speaker 1: point thirty. You can join the show at six thirty. Yeah, yeah, six.

819
00:53:21,680 --> 00:53:25,240
Speaker 3: I think we are also just a little tiny tease.

820
00:53:25,960 --> 00:53:29,920
Speaker 3: National Sawdust is a very audio forward venue with a

821
00:53:30,280 --> 00:53:33,920
Speaker 3: crazy array of immersive speakers hidden in the walls of

822
00:53:33,960 --> 00:53:37,879
Speaker 3: their incredibly beautifully designed space. And we're gonna make use

823
00:53:37,880 --> 00:53:41,200
Speaker 3: of all of that both before, after and during the show,

824
00:53:41,239 --> 00:53:43,280
Speaker 3: so come check it out. You can find more info

825
00:53:43,320 --> 00:53:47,520
Speaker 3: at National Sawdust website or on AirFest And.

826
00:53:47,480 --> 00:53:50,719
Speaker 1: We'll also possibly we're still waiting to hear back, we'll

827
00:53:50,760 --> 00:53:57,200
Speaker 1: possibly have an appearance by our parent company, Illumination Global Unlimited.

828
00:53:57,320 --> 00:53:59,680
Speaker 1: Can't wait for you to hear it, can't wait for

829
00:53:59,719 --> 00:54:02,279
Speaker 1: you to be there and see it. Can't wait for

830
00:54:02,320 --> 00:54:04,560
Speaker 1: you to be part of the show, speaking a part

831
00:54:04,680 --> 00:54:09,480
Speaker 1: of the show. If you have links, if you have photographs,

832
00:54:09,600 --> 00:54:15,480
Speaker 1: if you have a burning question on your mind, please

833
00:54:15,640 --> 00:54:18,319
Speaker 1: always write to us. We can all see it. When

834
00:54:18,320 --> 00:54:22,760
Speaker 1: you write, we can all respond. We're available for these

835
00:54:23,000 --> 00:54:27,320
Speaker 1: Internet community cays twenty four hours a night, seven evenings

836
00:54:27,360 --> 00:54:29,320
Speaker 1: a week. All you have to do is walk a

837
00:54:29,360 --> 00:54:31,719
Speaker 1: little further from the light. Join us out here in

838
00:54:31,760 --> 00:54:32,120
Speaker 1: the dark.

839
00:54:32,320 --> 00:54:55,880
Speaker 3: We are conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.

840
00:54:56,080 --> 00:54:58,120
Speaker 2: Stuff they don't want you to know is a production

841
00:54:58,239 --> 00:55:02,759
Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

842
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