WEBVTT - Dave Cobb: Nashville's Super Producer 0:00:08.200 --> 0:00:14.320 Pushkin. Just a quick note here. You can listen to 0:00:14.360 --> 0:00:17.320 all of the music mentioned in this episode on our playlist, 0:00:17.360 --> 0:00:19.440 which you can find a link to in the show 0:00:19.480 --> 0:00:23.160 notes for licensing reasons, each time a song is referenced 0:00:23.200 --> 0:00:28.400 in this episode, you'll hear this sound effect all right. 0:00:29.040 --> 0:00:34.479 Enjoy the episode. Over the past fifteen years, Nashville superproducer 0:00:34.680 --> 0:00:38.560 Dave Cobb has managed to inject some much needed soul 0:00:38.840 --> 0:00:43.199 into country music. Dave Cobb has earned six Grammys for 0:00:43.400 --> 0:00:47.040 standout work with artists like Jason Isabel, Brandy Carlyle, and 0:00:47.120 --> 0:00:51.440 Chris Stapleton, whose song Tennessee Whiskey We're listening to now 0:00:52.960 --> 0:00:56.480 and as You'll Hear Today, Dave Pull's inspiration from sources 0:00:56.520 --> 0:01:01.080 not normally associated with country music. Dave worshiped Ozzy Osborne 0:01:01.120 --> 0:01:04.800 as a kid despite growing up in an avout Pentecostal family, 0:01:05.800 --> 0:01:08.200 and in the early nineties he cut his teeth as 0:01:08.200 --> 0:01:11.160 a session guitarist in Atlanta, working with hip hop and 0:01:11.240 --> 0:01:16.080 R and B producers Jermaine dupri and Dallas Austin. Rick 0:01:16.160 --> 0:01:19.240 Rubin and Dave Cobb connected over zoom recently to talk 0:01:19.280 --> 0:01:22.920 about Dave's unconventional path to becoming a country music producer. 0:01:23.640 --> 0:01:26.040 They also talk about the power of being an outsider 0:01:26.240 --> 0:01:32.679 and the value of goofing around in the studio. This 0:01:32.800 --> 0:01:35.640 is broken record liner notes for the Digital Age. I'm 0:01:35.720 --> 0:01:45.240 justin Richmond. Here's Rick Rubin and Dave Cobb. So how's 0:01:45.280 --> 0:01:48.080 everything been going. How are you feeling. I'm good. I'm 0:01:48.120 --> 0:01:51.520 just surviving the apocalypse. You know, it's it's a weird time. 0:01:51.600 --> 0:01:53.720 I'm sure it's weird for you guys as well. You know, 0:01:53.800 --> 0:01:56.000 I just it sometimes feel like, you know, we have 0:01:56.040 --> 0:01:57.720 a job. We go in the studio, we don't see 0:01:57.720 --> 0:02:00.680 the outside world. That feels kind of norm until you 0:02:00.720 --> 0:02:03.480 actually leave, and then then I realize, you know, we're 0:02:03.480 --> 0:02:05.800 on the other side or something. Have you been able 0:02:05.800 --> 0:02:08.600 to work straight through you know, I took there was 0:02:08.639 --> 0:02:10.840 a lockdown here, so I didn't work during that time, 0:02:10.880 --> 0:02:13.680 but you know, I went back shortly afterwards, and it's 0:02:14.720 --> 0:02:16.560 you know, it's always in the back of your mind, right, 0:02:16.880 --> 0:02:20.280 everything about it. But you know, I think I'm always 0:02:20.360 --> 0:02:23.239 sensitive to I think maybe it's our job to read 0:02:23.280 --> 0:02:25.000 the room and read everything around you, and you can 0:02:25.040 --> 0:02:27.920 just see people come in a little bit disoriented. You know, 0:02:27.960 --> 0:02:29.440 we have to kind of shake it off. You know. 0:02:29.480 --> 0:02:32.680 Tequila usually helps with that though. Yeah. I feel like 0:02:33.000 --> 0:02:37.760 as soon as the music starts playing it it changes everything. 0:02:37.880 --> 0:02:40.079 Like whatever whatever else is going on in the world 0:02:40.440 --> 0:02:45.760 is diminished in that moment when the groove is good. 0:02:45.880 --> 0:02:49.720 You know, absolutely absolutely, man, You're you're right about that. 0:02:50.440 --> 0:02:54.680 What's going on out there? Everything's cool, usual, usual stuff, 0:02:54.760 --> 0:02:58.440 just you know, trying to make good stuff. Well, you 0:02:58.480 --> 0:03:01.799 always seem to pull that off. Dry my best you got. 0:03:01.880 --> 0:03:03.760 You got the best career of all time. I just 0:03:03.760 --> 0:03:07.280 want to say doing being a producer. You you have 0:03:07.400 --> 0:03:09.679 the best career of all time. Tell me why you 0:03:09.800 --> 0:03:11.600 Why do you say that? Because you get to do 0:03:11.680 --> 0:03:14.839 run DMC, you get to do country, and you get 0:03:14.840 --> 0:03:17.040 to do Slayer. It's like, come on, and you know 0:03:17.040 --> 0:03:20.000 who doesn't want that career? You know, it's just the 0:03:20.160 --> 0:03:23.200 music I like. You know, it's just the music I like. Yeah, 0:03:23.240 --> 0:03:26.239 but you get to do the music you like? Yeah. Absolutely, No, 0:03:26.360 --> 0:03:30.200 I'm very I'm very fortunate. Absolutely So tell me how 0:03:30.200 --> 0:03:33.040 did you end up in this, uh, in this funny 0:03:33.080 --> 0:03:37.360 position that you're in. Um, you know, I never I 0:03:37.400 --> 0:03:39.240 never wanted to be a producer. It wasn't something I 0:03:39.280 --> 0:03:40.600 woke up and said, you know, I'm going to do 0:03:40.640 --> 0:03:42.160 this when I grow old. You know, I wanted to 0:03:42.200 --> 0:03:44.760 be in a band and and and have a career 0:03:44.840 --> 0:03:46.840 being a guitar player in the band, and and you know, 0:03:46.840 --> 0:03:49.800 of course, we find that we signed a typical bad 0:03:49.840 --> 0:03:52.600 record deal and kind of got stuck. And if I 0:03:52.640 --> 0:03:54.040 did anything, it would go to the label. If I 0:03:54.040 --> 0:03:55.600 didn't do anything, it would go to label. So I 0:03:55.600 --> 0:03:58.440 started producing friends of Minds bands and then they got 0:03:58.480 --> 0:04:00.600 record deals, and next thing you know, I'm living in Nashville. 0:04:00.680 --> 0:04:04.320 So you know, it's but you know, through that whole world, 0:04:04.360 --> 0:04:06.280 I went through being a session player for a long 0:04:06.360 --> 0:04:09.280 time as well, and learning from people like Jermaine dupri 0:04:09.360 --> 0:04:12.920 and Dallas Austin and and uh and just kind of 0:04:12.960 --> 0:04:14.840 figuring it out, figuring like, you know what, if I'm 0:04:14.880 --> 0:04:17.280 a producer, I get to go home. I sleep in 0:04:17.360 --> 0:04:19.800 my own bed. That was really the big cell for me, 0:04:20.400 --> 0:04:22.600 you know, because I never liked touring. I never liked travel. 0:04:22.839 --> 0:04:25.679 So it's interesting that the people you came up under 0:04:25.720 --> 0:04:30.080 were Jermaine and Dallas. Considering what you're doing now, it's 0:04:30.080 --> 0:04:33.400 just it's again, it's another world. Well, I'm I'm from 0:04:33.440 --> 0:04:36.240 I'm from Georgia, Savannah, Georgia. But I lived in Atlanta 0:04:36.400 --> 0:04:38.320 when in my formidable year is kind of coming up 0:04:38.360 --> 0:04:41.440 and and those guys were just owning the town, you know. 0:04:41.520 --> 0:04:44.400 And this guy, Darren Prindle bought me into play guitar 0:04:44.400 --> 0:04:46.400 on the session for Dallas and that's how kind of 0:04:46.400 --> 0:04:48.440 how it started. And I was fascinated with that world. Man. 0:04:48.480 --> 0:04:51.400 I loved I loved the era of R and B. 0:04:51.640 --> 0:04:53.600 You know, in Atlanta, it was it was on fire 0:04:53.640 --> 0:04:56.000 in the early nineties. So it was cool to kind 0:04:56.040 --> 0:04:58.560 of see some of that stuff firsthand and the talent 0:04:58.600 --> 0:05:00.960 that was in the room, you know. But I always 0:05:01.040 --> 0:05:03.839 my passion was always to make rock and roll records. 0:05:03.960 --> 0:05:06.479 So I moved up to Los Angeles thinking that was 0:05:06.520 --> 0:05:09.080 the kingdom of rock and roll. And I go out 0:05:09.120 --> 0:05:11.640 to LA and I wind up producing dis Guys Shooter 0:05:11.720 --> 0:05:15.000 Jennings and having kind of a you know, a country 0:05:15.279 --> 0:05:17.520 single on the radio and it kind of started going 0:05:17.560 --> 0:05:19.479 and then the country then kind of fell on my lap. 0:05:19.520 --> 0:05:22.400 I mean, growing up in Georgia, I didn't I didn't 0:05:22.400 --> 0:05:25.120 really love country. It wasn't my thing at all. I mean, 0:05:25.160 --> 0:05:27.520 it wasn't really really even my parents saying my parents were, 0:05:28.080 --> 0:05:30.680 you know, I had My grandmother was Pentecostal minister, so 0:05:30.800 --> 0:05:33.040 we heard a lot of church music. But aside from 0:05:33.080 --> 0:05:35.240 that and a lot of secular stuff escape except for 0:05:35.240 --> 0:05:38.920 the super mainstream country in the late seventies and early eighties, 0:05:38.920 --> 0:05:41.360 and man, I wanted nothing to do with it, you know, 0:05:41.560 --> 0:05:44.040 I wanted to listen to a CDC and Van Halen 0:05:44.120 --> 0:05:49.440 and led Zeppelin and Beatles, and eventually, through meeting Shooter Jennings, 0:05:49.600 --> 0:05:51.600 he'd introduced me to the good country, which I call 0:05:51.680 --> 0:05:54.800 a good country. Then the obviously Whale and Jennings and 0:05:55.080 --> 0:05:57.400 Jerry Reid and George Jones and all the stuff I 0:05:57.440 --> 0:05:58.840 really loved now, so I fell in love it. Once 0:05:59.040 --> 0:06:01.479 I found the rock and rolling country, I think I 0:06:01.560 --> 0:06:04.279 got it. You know, when I heard Whale in his band, 0:06:04.320 --> 0:06:07.719 his band were playing rock and roll for all tensive purposes. 0:06:07.720 --> 0:06:09.480 There was a phaser on the guitar, there was a 0:06:10.200 --> 0:06:13.960 you know, almost like a driving country funk groove to 0:06:14.000 --> 0:06:16.120 the drums. I got it all of a sudden. It 0:06:16.160 --> 0:06:17.760 made sense. There were rough edges, I guess I was 0:06:17.760 --> 0:06:21.520 always looking for music that had rough edges. Rough edges 0:06:21.520 --> 0:06:24.560 always attracted me, whether it was you know, hip hop, 0:06:24.680 --> 0:06:29.120 R and B, soul, country, bluegrass, whatever it was. I 0:06:29.200 --> 0:06:31.600 want rough edges, you know, I like the mistakes. You know, 0:06:32.080 --> 0:06:34.279 tell me a little bit about what you saw when 0:06:34.279 --> 0:06:39.119 you're working with Dallas, your studio guitar player. Technologically, what 0:06:39.160 --> 0:06:42.440 was going on there and how does that relate to 0:06:42.440 --> 0:06:45.600 how you make music today. Well, I didn't get a 0:06:45.600 --> 0:06:47.800 ton of time with them, you know, I was mainly 0:06:47.800 --> 0:06:50.120 in the studio cutting tracks. There was a guy named 0:06:50.160 --> 0:06:52.640 t Smith that was signed to his label, Rawdy Records, 0:06:52.640 --> 0:06:54.719 and I got to kind of work with them and 0:06:54.720 --> 0:06:58.400 develop the demos. But I remember taking those demos and 0:06:58.520 --> 0:07:02.800 they wound up using one of the tracks and I 0:07:02.960 --> 0:07:05.960 just recorded it with one mic I don't know, a cassette, 0:07:06.240 --> 0:07:08.760 cassette four track or something. And I remember going to 0:07:08.800 --> 0:07:11.360 the studio with his engineers and next thing you know, 0:07:11.440 --> 0:07:15.280 they were using gates the trigger you know, MPCs to 0:07:15.280 --> 0:07:17.119 put samples in it and kind of build a track, 0:07:17.160 --> 0:07:19.560 and I remember it's being so cool they're able to 0:07:19.560 --> 0:07:22.640 do this. I mean, this is something that took god 0:07:22.720 --> 0:07:25.920 knows all day, you know, to do. And just watch 0:07:26.120 --> 0:07:29.320 how technology has changed so much is amazing. But it 0:07:29.360 --> 0:07:31.240 was cool to watch the way those guys thought, I mean, 0:07:31.760 --> 0:07:33.840 they were doing everything we're doing right now. I just 0:07:33.880 --> 0:07:36.160 took a little bit longer, you know. And I remember 0:07:36.280 --> 0:07:40.000 going in and watching them do vocals with artists. I 0:07:40.040 --> 0:07:44.160 remember walking into the Deborah Cox session and Deborah Cox 0:07:44.200 --> 0:07:47.280 had filled up an entire twenty four track with backgrounds, 0:07:47.560 --> 0:07:49.240 and that was the sound of those big records he 0:07:49.320 --> 0:07:51.400 was doing at that time, had track after the track 0:07:51.440 --> 0:07:54.880 and layer after layer, and that's with no technology, that's 0:07:54.920 --> 0:07:57.240 just singing and just building it. It was It was cool. 0:07:57.320 --> 0:08:02.120 It was was watching an absolute, you know, masterpiece come 0:08:02.240 --> 0:08:04.240 come to life in front of you and seeing how 0:08:04.280 --> 0:08:07.400 all that came together. This is when sampling became a 0:08:07.480 --> 0:08:09.880 no no all of a sudden. Everyone was getting sued 0:08:09.920 --> 0:08:12.760 for samples. So me and a couple other kids would 0:08:12.760 --> 0:08:14.280 go in and jam and they'd say, you know, can 0:08:14.280 --> 0:08:16.680 you play something like Curtis Mayfield? So then I go 0:08:16.840 --> 0:08:19.640 down a Curtis Mayfield deep dive, or so can you 0:08:19.680 --> 0:08:21.560 can you play something kind of like the Jbs or 0:08:21.600 --> 0:08:23.880 the Meters? And that was an education in music to 0:08:24.000 --> 0:08:26.520 learn those records and try to figure out, I mean, 0:08:26.560 --> 0:08:28.320 no one can play like any of those bands or 0:08:28.360 --> 0:08:29.960 any of those guys but it was cool. We just 0:08:30.040 --> 0:08:31.760 jam all day and they had a dat going the 0:08:31.920 --> 0:08:34.120 entire time, and then they would take the DAT and 0:08:34.160 --> 0:08:37.800 then they may take one bar of it and turn 0:08:37.840 --> 0:08:40.360 it into a new sample. And it was it was cool. 0:08:40.400 --> 0:08:43.360 But it wasn't really the record making process. It got me. 0:08:43.400 --> 0:08:47.160 It was the education of incredible bands and artists I 0:08:47.280 --> 0:08:49.760 heard through people that knew a lot more about in 0:08:49.840 --> 0:08:52.640 me the music, you know, and and learning the studying 0:08:52.640 --> 0:08:56.199 Curtis Mayfield's guitar playing. I mean, it's something I sneak 0:08:56.240 --> 0:08:58.520 in country all the time, you know, whether I'm doing 0:08:58.520 --> 0:09:00.720 a rock record or a country record, it's the soul. 0:09:00.840 --> 0:09:02.480 I'm always trying to get the soul that's on the 0:09:02.480 --> 0:09:06.120 soul record because to me, that that's that's the magic. 0:09:06.200 --> 0:09:09.439 You know, it's that that's that swing that you're kind 0:09:09.440 --> 0:09:11.120 of missing the one a little bit and you're coming 0:09:11.200 --> 0:09:13.679 right behind it, you know, with a bass or whatever 0:09:13.720 --> 0:09:17.040 it is. It's that pocket beautiful. So you were saying 0:09:17.080 --> 0:09:20.800 that where you grew up, there was not there was 0:09:20.840 --> 0:09:23.400 not music in your house other than church music. Is 0:09:23.440 --> 0:09:25.840 this correct? When you were growing up pretty much? You know, 0:09:25.880 --> 0:09:28.560 my parents weren't. I mean, they're amazing and my mom 0:09:28.600 --> 0:09:30.960 absolutely supported me playing music. She sneak off and buy 0:09:31.000 --> 0:09:33.480 me a drum kid or take me to a bass 0:09:33.559 --> 0:09:36.280 lesson or whatever. So she was there. She was supportive. 0:09:36.720 --> 0:09:40.080 But the music I mainly heard was, you know, at church, 0:09:40.120 --> 0:09:41.760 because I felt like I couldn't get out of church. 0:09:41.800 --> 0:09:43.440 I had to go to church, you know, since I'm 0:09:43.480 --> 0:09:46.720 the grandson of the of the preacher, I had to 0:09:46.720 --> 0:09:51.200 be there Monday, Wednesday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday morning, Sunday night, vacation, 0:09:51.240 --> 0:09:53.920 Bible study, Christian school. It's like you couldn't get away, 0:09:54.000 --> 0:09:56.200 you know, couldn't get away from it. So what I 0:09:56.240 --> 0:09:58.880 did like about that is I love him Tho still 0:09:58.920 --> 0:10:01.000 to this day, I think, I think they're just beautiful, 0:10:01.040 --> 0:10:03.920 the cadence of it all. And obviously that's that's a 0:10:04.040 --> 0:10:07.160 huge building block of country music, so I understand that. 0:10:07.200 --> 0:10:08.959 But we had a piano, we had a pedal steel 0:10:08.960 --> 0:10:12.080 in the church, and an acoustic guitar. No drums, but uh, 0:10:12.679 --> 0:10:15.800 just the music was definitely steeped empty. But I would 0:10:15.840 --> 0:10:19.280 I would go out and find Black Sabbath and Ozzie. 0:10:19.320 --> 0:10:21.679 I think I got maybe Ozzy first. Maybe it was 0:10:21.920 --> 0:10:23.760 you know, a blizzard of oz was the first record 0:10:23.800 --> 0:10:27.920 to discovered by Ozzy and had to hide the record, 0:10:28.320 --> 0:10:30.320 had to hide it, and I had had an azzi 0:10:30.400 --> 0:10:32.200 poster and I had to hide it in the addict. 0:10:32.240 --> 0:10:34.720 You know, I would for sure we go into hell 0:10:34.760 --> 0:10:37.599 if they were found. Was that Your first memory of 0:10:37.760 --> 0:10:40.679 your own music was Ozzie? No, The first memory I 0:10:40.679 --> 0:10:43.559 ever had with music, I maybe was really young. My 0:10:43.679 --> 0:10:46.719 aunt she uh, she had gone through a divorce and 0:10:46.840 --> 0:10:48.160 she came to live with us for a little while, 0:10:48.960 --> 0:10:51.199 and she bought some of her records, and it was 0:10:51.320 --> 0:10:53.719 during disco era, you know, this is late seventies, and 0:10:54.200 --> 0:10:57.760 I remember she had really great records. But the records 0:10:57.760 --> 0:11:01.760 I really remember was the forty five for New Kid 0:11:01.840 --> 0:11:04.880 in Town by the Eagles, which is my first favorite song. 0:11:05.360 --> 0:11:07.800 I didn't know there was the Beatles at that young age, 0:11:08.280 --> 0:11:11.080 but those harmonies I was so attracted to. It's such 0:11:11.160 --> 0:11:14.400 a brilliant, brilliant arrangement on that song. So I remember 0:11:14.480 --> 0:11:16.800 that that record being probably the first record that that 0:11:16.920 --> 0:11:18.719 I go WHOA, what is this? You know, and just 0:11:18.880 --> 0:11:21.880 obsessed with it until somebody stepped on it and broke it. 0:11:22.000 --> 0:11:26.120 But that you know that and disco duck this might 0:11:26.160 --> 0:11:28.319 have been the first formidable records of my life. You know, 0:11:28.640 --> 0:11:30.719 Disco Duck was a good one. Yeah, he's in top 0:11:30.760 --> 0:11:32.280 ten for me of all time. Bicks of that, you know, 0:11:32.880 --> 0:11:36.240 and then and then it graduated to Ozzie and would 0:11:36.280 --> 0:11:38.520 you say mostly hard rock heavy metal was the was 0:11:38.720 --> 0:11:42.120 the The Beatles were the thing my dad did like 0:11:42.480 --> 0:11:44.720 my dad did, like the Beach Boys. That was one 0:11:44.720 --> 0:11:47.080 of the ones. He loved Buddy Holly and he loved Elvis. 0:11:47.120 --> 0:11:48.599 So I did hear a little bit of that on 0:11:48.760 --> 0:11:51.599 Greatest Hits cassettes, you know, Yeah, but uh yeah, the 0:11:51.640 --> 0:11:53.600 Beatles were kind of my thing because I remember listening 0:11:53.600 --> 0:11:55.760 to The Day in the Life by the Beatles and thinking, like, 0:11:55.920 --> 0:11:58.880 how does humans make that music? It just doesn't seem 0:11:59.600 --> 0:12:02.079 I don't know how what what kind of stars have 0:12:02.200 --> 0:12:05.480 to align for that to happen? You know, that song, 0:12:06.080 --> 0:12:09.000 everything about it is perfect. I mean, Ringo is my 0:12:09.000 --> 0:12:11.200 favorite drummer of all time. Every drum fell a single 0:12:11.240 --> 0:12:15.520 bowl on that song. The bassline is defying what any 0:12:15.600 --> 0:12:17.599 other bass player was doing at the time. You know, 0:12:17.760 --> 0:12:20.400 you have this crescendo of strings that it goes into 0:12:20.520 --> 0:12:23.719 explosion into a whole different tempo and different Feel and 0:12:23.800 --> 0:12:27.199 Alarm Clock and Psychedelic Oz at the end. I just 0:12:27.679 --> 0:12:30.480 I was captivated by it. It doesn't get better, it 0:12:30.720 --> 0:12:33.839 doesn't get better, and it doesn't get old. Ozzie too, Yeah, 0:12:33.880 --> 0:12:37.079 Ozzie too hearing you know, like Suicide Solution and and 0:12:37.200 --> 0:12:39.480 all those songs. Again, I thought I was doing something 0:12:39.520 --> 0:12:41.480 really dangerous, and I think that's what I liked about it, 0:12:41.559 --> 0:12:43.800 you know. And but you know, Ozzie was you were 0:12:43.920 --> 0:12:45.839 You got a chance to work with Ozzie, which is 0:12:45.880 --> 0:12:49.400 I'm so jealous of that. But Ozzie, even though it 0:12:49.480 --> 0:12:53.040 was heavy, it was catchy and they're beautiful pop songs 0:12:53.080 --> 0:12:56.520 and that stuff you know here and uh, mister Crawley, 0:12:56.760 --> 0:12:59.480 I mean, it's just a beautiful classical arrangement to that song, 0:13:00.080 --> 0:13:03.199 you know, the keyboard at the beginning, you know, and 0:13:03.520 --> 0:13:06.400 and Randy Rhodes guitar soul. You could sing every riff 0:13:06.440 --> 0:13:10.000 of it, and everything Ozzy's saying was just ketchy, ketchy, 0:13:10.080 --> 0:13:13.280 ketchy ketchy. When he does melodies, he always seems to descend. 0:13:13.480 --> 0:13:16.439 People look to me and say, he goes down and 0:13:16.520 --> 0:13:18.719 everybody else goes up. He just he did pop in 0:13:18.760 --> 0:13:23.280 a different different way, you know. He meant so much 0:13:23.320 --> 0:13:24.920 to me as a kid. I think that first Black 0:13:24.960 --> 0:13:28.640 Sabbath record is probably the heaviest record of all time, 0:13:29.440 --> 0:13:31.199 you know. I know there's my Sugar and bands that 0:13:31.280 --> 0:13:35.120 are really heavy and powerful and awesome, but that record 0:13:35.280 --> 0:13:39.120 is so terrifying. You know, the big church bell and 0:13:39.160 --> 0:13:43.120 everything just terrifying. It scared me. The song Black sabbathysists 0:13:43.120 --> 0:13:45.800 heave Us. It cuts period and I remember, you know again, 0:13:45.840 --> 0:13:47.440 I grew up so heavy in church and they used 0:13:47.440 --> 0:13:51.160 to actually have Sunday school meetings about you know, Ozzy 0:13:51.400 --> 0:13:55.240 was worshiping the devil, and you obviously all the backmasking stuff, 0:13:55.280 --> 0:13:57.559 and kids were knights in Satan's service. You know, we 0:13:57.679 --> 0:14:00.000 heard all that stuff. So it made it extra scary, 0:14:01.160 --> 0:14:02.439 you know. I think I think that's while I was 0:14:02.480 --> 0:14:04.719 so attracted to it. It just seemed like, you know, 0:14:04.960 --> 0:14:07.800 oh man, this is dangerous. You know. It's funny to 0:14:07.800 --> 0:14:11.120 see the footage of him in the Azzie documentary before 0:14:11.160 --> 0:14:12.719 he goes out on stage where he gets on his 0:14:12.800 --> 0:14:17.359 knees and he prays and he crosses himself. It's so beautiful. Absolutely, 0:14:17.760 --> 0:14:20.000 but we didn't know that. We thought he was you know, 0:14:20.160 --> 0:14:24.800 he legitimately eight bats daily, you know, but that must 0:14:24.800 --> 0:14:26.640 have been cool. But also you've got Tonya Almy in 0:14:26.720 --> 0:14:28.760 the band, and he's a butler and Bill Ward, I mean, 0:14:28.840 --> 0:14:32.200 he's absolute ledges. But I think Tony Almy might be 0:14:32.280 --> 0:14:35.000 the riff master of all time too. I think so. 0:14:35.360 --> 0:14:37.880 I think he is. I mean, Jimmy Page is number 0:14:37.880 --> 0:14:40.440 one for me. Let's Zeppelin. Jimmy Page for sure number 0:14:40.440 --> 0:14:44.400 one guitar player. But man, Tonya Almy just as riffs terrifying. 0:14:45.120 --> 0:14:48.640 It's amazing when those guys, as soon as the Black 0:14:48.680 --> 0:14:52.560 Sabbath guys plug in and play, it can't sound like 0:14:52.680 --> 0:14:57.080 anything other than Black Sabbath, you know, it's so in great. 0:14:57.120 --> 0:14:59.280 It's like we think of you know, so many bands 0:14:59.360 --> 0:15:02.720 try to play like Black Sabbath, but that's just how 0:15:02.840 --> 0:15:05.400 they play. And whenever anyone plays like them, it doesn't 0:15:05.400 --> 0:15:08.240 sound really anything like it when they do it. It 0:15:08.400 --> 0:15:11.920 just it's it's just the natural way that it comes out. 0:15:11.960 --> 0:15:16.560 It's unbelievable, thrilling. I think there's something to Bill Ward's playing. 0:15:17.480 --> 0:15:22.200 It's got this hurry up and slow down boh. It's 0:15:22.240 --> 0:15:25.080 just so catches you and it slows up and speeds down, 0:15:25.120 --> 0:15:28.120 and it's so heavy, so have every fill he had. 0:15:29.920 --> 0:15:34.800 It's just it's beautiful, beautiful, so beautiful that whole band. 0:15:34.880 --> 0:15:39.400 Man such a fan. And then after Ozzie, what was 0:15:39.440 --> 0:15:42.360 your next? I think I got into band. It was 0:15:42.400 --> 0:15:46.880 an exciting time, you know, coming into late eighties early nineties, 0:15:46.880 --> 0:15:48.760 All of a sudden there were bands like Fishbone, which 0:15:48.800 --> 0:15:51.640 I adored Fishbone. I thought they were great. I love 0:15:51.760 --> 0:15:54.560 that band. I thought they were mixing up everything, and 0:15:54.600 --> 0:15:57.360 I think music was exciting for a while, where the 0:15:57.480 --> 0:16:01.080 beginnings of Lollapaloosa where you had Alan Jennings and nine 0:16:01.120 --> 0:16:04.680 Ish Nails and Fishbone, all the radio starting to be 0:16:04.760 --> 0:16:06.920 the beginning of alternative music, and the radio playing this 0:16:07.080 --> 0:16:08.960 music that seemed to be going like this and just 0:16:09.040 --> 0:16:11.600 spreading out and music with evolving. I mean, you had 0:16:11.600 --> 0:16:13.120 a lot to do with it with Red Out of 0:16:13.160 --> 0:16:14.840 Chili Peppers. They were one of those bands. It's like 0:16:15.040 --> 0:16:17.240 that they didn't really sound like anybody else. They sounded 0:16:17.280 --> 0:16:19.280 like all the cool elements of lots of music that 0:16:19.360 --> 0:16:22.720 you liked. And then for some reason, maybe that format 0:16:23.000 --> 0:16:26.120 just changed one day and became like Okay, here's the rules, 0:16:26.560 --> 0:16:28.120 and you got to play by these to have a hit. 0:16:28.200 --> 0:16:29.880 But at that point, it feels like you could have 0:16:30.000 --> 0:16:32.400 a hit by not playing by the rules. So anything 0:16:32.440 --> 0:16:34.360 that didn't play by the rules I got into, And 0:16:34.720 --> 0:16:37.760 particularly Trent Resner. I was really into nine Ish Nails. 0:16:38.280 --> 0:16:42.400 I really thought it was just again super dangerous. You know, 0:16:42.480 --> 0:16:45.480 even though there were clicks in programming, he didn't feel 0:16:45.520 --> 0:16:49.400 like that. It felt soulful. Absolutely. Maybe back up before that, 0:16:49.520 --> 0:16:51.880 Van Halen was a big one for me too growing up. 0:16:52.120 --> 0:16:55.200 I just you know, Eddie's a guitar player who I 0:16:55.280 --> 0:16:57.240 think every kid who started playing guitar in the eighties 0:16:57.240 --> 0:16:58.640 wanted to learn how to play a look like them, 0:16:58.680 --> 0:17:01.600 but nobody could. I And I sat and I studied 0:17:01.600 --> 0:17:04.800 that stuff like textbooks and learned every riff. And I've 0:17:04.840 --> 0:17:08.200 never been able to use tapping in a song. He 0:17:08.400 --> 0:17:10.200 was able to do it, and it was awesome and 0:17:10.520 --> 0:17:13.520 catchy and and uh, it's so much melody and what 0:17:13.600 --> 0:17:16.840 that guy did. And again, super soulful player. So I 0:17:16.960 --> 0:17:20.119 was really attracted to that too. And Guns of Roses 0:17:20.119 --> 0:17:24.119 I adored, you know, at the typical Southern story of 0:17:24.840 --> 0:17:27.320 you know, cousin m worked at a tape store and 0:17:27.400 --> 0:17:29.840 he had appetite for destruction and he picked up. You know, 0:17:29.920 --> 0:17:31.680 two girls are older than us. I was thirteen and 0:17:31.760 --> 0:17:33.800 we had wine coolers and a dirt road and listened 0:17:33.800 --> 0:17:35.919 to Appetite for Destruction. I don't know what's more rock 0:17:36.000 --> 0:17:39.040 and roll than that. And obviously, you know, I don't 0:17:39.080 --> 0:17:41.800 think I even like looked where the girl was. I 0:17:41.840 --> 0:17:44.359 was too scared. But just the list hearing that, I 0:17:44.400 --> 0:17:47.200 think I was more occupied with the cassette of guns 0:17:47.280 --> 0:17:49.840 of roses than I was you know anything at the time. 0:17:49.920 --> 0:17:54.080 You know, when did you start playing guitar? Thirteen? Drums 0:17:54.119 --> 0:17:56.000 are my first instrument. I started really young on that, 0:17:56.119 --> 0:17:58.040 and then bass and then guitar. I figured I couldn't 0:17:58.040 --> 0:18:01.400 really write a song just playing drums with the instruments 0:18:01.440 --> 0:18:05.000 in your house. My granddaddy Cob my dad's dad, he 0:18:05.119 --> 0:18:09.200 always played, and my grandmother, the preacher. She was a 0:18:09.240 --> 0:18:12.720 beautiful singer. She had written songs, had gotten published. You know, 0:18:12.840 --> 0:18:14.840 she actually got a publishing deal from Disney in the 0:18:14.920 --> 0:18:17.200 forties in the middle of the war and had to 0:18:17.280 --> 0:18:19.159 turn it down. So she had had a bunch of 0:18:19.240 --> 0:18:21.080 Christian songs published. So there was it was around me. 0:18:21.200 --> 0:18:23.720 She gave me a guitar young and my other granddaddy 0:18:23.720 --> 0:18:25.600 gave me a guitar, and my parents gave me a 0:18:25.640 --> 0:18:27.680 couple of lessons, and so there was always around. But 0:18:28.119 --> 0:18:31.120 you know, I don't remember a time not playing music. 0:18:31.200 --> 0:18:32.720 You know, I wish I was at this age. I 0:18:32.760 --> 0:18:34.600 wish I was good at something else. Not that I'm 0:18:34.640 --> 0:18:36.600 good at music, but I wish I had a hobby. 0:18:36.800 --> 0:18:38.760 I mean, you might need to tell me some hobbies 0:18:38.800 --> 0:18:42.240 to take up. I've tried. I've tried motorcycles and I 0:18:42.359 --> 0:18:46.600 like to look at him. You know, I don't do sports. 0:18:46.840 --> 0:18:49.359 I don't watch sports. You know, I need a hobby. 0:18:49.440 --> 0:18:51.080 So if you got a hobby, Rick, let me know. 0:18:51.640 --> 0:18:57.080 Would you like to read? No? Hell no, I'm dyslexic. 0:18:57.160 --> 0:18:59.119 So yeah, I'm looking at looking at reading. It's just 0:18:59.200 --> 0:19:01.320 like it's as will put me in a jail sale 0:19:01.359 --> 0:19:04.760 it's audio books. Audiobooks might be your I think I 0:19:04.840 --> 0:19:07.240 think it's the OCD man. I need to find something 0:19:07.359 --> 0:19:10.080 that that totally takes me away for a second. But 0:19:10.280 --> 0:19:13.159 pretty much, if I have a day off, I'm trying to, 0:19:14.160 --> 0:19:17.399 you know, chase something music related every day, you know, 0:19:17.800 --> 0:19:20.639 but I do need something. Maybe it's dominoes. I don't know. 0:19:21.000 --> 0:19:24.080 So guitar starts at thirteen, the first things you're playing 0:19:24.160 --> 0:19:27.200 are along with like Ozzie Records, Van Halen Records. Is 0:19:27.240 --> 0:19:30.080 that the first Yeah, definitely, which is terrifying because no 0:19:30.119 --> 0:19:32.840 one should start with those records. You know. I think 0:19:32.880 --> 0:19:34.640 when I say I was playing along, it was probably 0:19:34.720 --> 0:19:39.520 really shittily, you know, But you know, I think learning 0:19:39.680 --> 0:19:43.280 you know, Crazy Train or something early on that those 0:19:43.320 --> 0:19:44.920 were the ones to stick with you just bawn on. 0:19:45.080 --> 0:19:46.800 I don't know, you can kind of handle that too. 0:19:46.880 --> 0:19:48.640 It's two strings for the most part. For that when 0:19:48.680 --> 0:19:50.560 it gets the other part, forget about it. But I 0:19:50.600 --> 0:19:53.320 think I learned lots of parts of songs. I don't 0:19:53.359 --> 0:19:56.160 think I was one to ever learn every single note 0:19:56.200 --> 0:19:58.240 of it, So I know, I know, like lots of 0:19:58.280 --> 0:20:02.119 songs starts and that's where it ends. And I think 0:20:02.160 --> 0:20:04.760 that's probably probably it made me get into writing and 0:20:04.760 --> 0:20:07.159 stuff like that more because I can you know, I 0:20:07.200 --> 0:20:09.000 didn't have the patients to even learn the whole song. 0:20:09.240 --> 0:20:12.400 So again, but you know, all that stuff filtered in ACDC. 0:20:12.520 --> 0:20:16.000 I forgot a CDC massive one for me, massive massive 0:20:16.040 --> 0:20:18.840 ACDC fan. I had a guitar teacher that he had 0:20:18.840 --> 0:20:21.800 a black SG and he would only teach me ACDC, 0:20:22.080 --> 0:20:24.480 so I go pick up, you know, sneaking by dirty 0:20:24.520 --> 0:20:26.520 d under cheap and walking there, and that's how you 0:20:26.560 --> 0:20:28.280 would teach me. So we skip Mary had a little 0:20:28.320 --> 0:20:32.040 lad went straight to highway to hell. You know, ACDC huge, 0:20:32.119 --> 0:20:35.720 Angus and Malcolm huge to me huge, And I still 0:20:35.760 --> 0:20:40.320 play a g chord like the young brothers. They don't play. Yeah, 0:20:40.320 --> 0:20:43.400 they skip a couple of strings, and I still play 0:20:43.480 --> 0:20:45.600 like them, you know in that sense? Do you know 0:20:45.720 --> 0:20:49.040 that Malcolm would use heavy strings and Angus would use 0:20:49.119 --> 0:20:52.080 light strings, and they would pick their chords so that 0:20:52.160 --> 0:20:53.680 between the two of them it would be like the 0:20:54.080 --> 0:20:57.920 two hands on a piano. Really, I did not know 0:20:58.080 --> 0:21:00.600 that that is so cool. Some he told me, and 0:21:00.760 --> 0:21:03.479 maybe you could validate this, that it might have been 0:21:03.520 --> 0:21:06.320 their brother George. It would sneak a piano under the 0:21:06.359 --> 0:21:09.320 guitar sometimes, Is that true. I know that they would 0:21:09.960 --> 0:21:14.400 try out their songs on piano as compositions to see 0:21:14.440 --> 0:21:17.440 if the song stood up. Oh wow, yeah, I don't 0:21:17.440 --> 0:21:20.240 know if it was ever on the records. I think 0:21:20.280 --> 0:21:22.800 somebody should make a piano version of AC's the greatest hit, 0:21:22.920 --> 0:21:25.919 be Great. That might be That might be your next project, 0:21:25.960 --> 0:21:27.800 I know, too bad. I can't play piano, but yeah, 0:21:27.880 --> 0:21:30.320 Bedtime with a CDC. You know, that's a that's a 0:21:30.359 --> 0:21:32.359 good one, you know. I don't know how well that 0:21:32.359 --> 0:21:35.119 would put you Hell's Bells the Singers kid to sleep, 0:21:35.160 --> 0:21:37.360 but it would be fun to listen to. Maybe Chris 0:21:37.440 --> 0:21:40.680 Stapleton singing Hell's Bells would be really good. I could imagine, 0:21:40.680 --> 0:21:42.200 you know what, he could sing the shit out of 0:21:42.200 --> 0:21:44.520 a I bet he's a hell of a rock and 0:21:44.640 --> 0:21:46.399 roll singer. He can sing the phone book. You know. 0:21:47.320 --> 0:21:50.040 We'll be right back with Dave Cobb after a short break. 0:21:54.880 --> 0:21:57.800 We're back with Rick Rubin and Dave Cobb. So you 0:21:57.880 --> 0:22:00.440 got to work with the Colds, right. That was the 0:22:00.600 --> 0:22:04.000 first first rock album I ever produced, was the Cult 0:22:04.119 --> 0:22:07.840 Electric And tell me about walking into a situation because 0:22:07.840 --> 0:22:11.119 I know you'd done rap early on walking to that 0:22:11.359 --> 0:22:14.920 band at that time, because I like, I loved that band. 0:22:14.960 --> 0:22:16.840 I was a big fan of the Colt But that 0:22:17.040 --> 0:22:18.960 record did not sound like what the band sounded like 0:22:19.080 --> 0:22:21.200 prior to you making that record. How do you go 0:22:21.359 --> 0:22:25.040 in from producing BC boys walking in and going like, Okay, 0:22:25.160 --> 0:22:27.840 you guys are gonna change everything. How does that happen? 0:22:28.720 --> 0:22:33.000 It happened in stages and it wasn't well, I'll tell you, 0:22:33.040 --> 0:22:35.240 I'll tell you the whole story. They had liked the 0:22:35.560 --> 0:22:37.520 hip hop records I was making, and they reached out 0:22:37.560 --> 0:22:39.199 and as if I would do a remix. They had 0:22:39.200 --> 0:22:42.720 already finished the album that was going to be electric, 0:22:43.280 --> 0:22:45.360 a completely different album than the one that we made, 0:22:45.680 --> 0:22:48.320 and they came and asked me to remix two songs 0:22:48.760 --> 0:22:53.000 from their new album. And then they loved the remixes 0:22:53.640 --> 0:22:58.080 and said, and it started like, let's remix it, but 0:22:58.160 --> 0:23:00.399 they came, so I had them replace stuff to make 0:23:00.440 --> 0:23:02.640 it more like the way I wanted it, and then 0:23:02.920 --> 0:23:06.280 we made the new version of those and then they said, well, 0:23:06.359 --> 0:23:08.240 maybe this is just what the whole album should be. 0:23:08.840 --> 0:23:12.000 And then we just made that made that album. It 0:23:12.119 --> 0:23:15.280 didn't start with the idea of either making an album. 0:23:15.359 --> 0:23:18.600 It started as a remix project. Wow. But I mean, 0:23:18.840 --> 0:23:21.760 you know, the guitars on that were just to me. 0:23:21.880 --> 0:23:25.840 It was like the first record post seventies or early 0:23:25.920 --> 0:23:29.719 eighties that had that rock guitar. Yeah. Well, I always 0:23:29.800 --> 0:23:34.199 loved I loved rock music, and they thought of themselves 0:23:34.359 --> 0:23:38.280 as a rock band and as a rock fan. I said, well, 0:23:39.200 --> 0:23:41.560 what you guys, do is cool, but it's not this, 0:23:42.600 --> 0:23:44.639 And if you want it to be this, we can 0:23:44.720 --> 0:23:49.640 do this. And they're like, well, yeah, let's do that. Wow. Yeah, man, 0:23:49.720 --> 0:23:52.560 that was such a great record, such an inspiring record, 0:23:52.640 --> 0:23:55.000 you know, coming up because it felt dangerous, you know again, 0:23:55.520 --> 0:23:57.119 music maybe at that time was starting to get a 0:23:57.160 --> 0:24:00.840 little safer, and you made sure it wasn't in the Yeah. 0:24:00.840 --> 0:24:03.240 I was still living at the dorm at NYU, and 0:24:03.320 --> 0:24:06.440 I would walk from the dorm to Electric Lady where 0:24:06.480 --> 0:24:10.239 we recorded that album. It was a good experience. How 0:24:10.280 --> 0:24:13.080 did you wind up in La? Like? What made that happen? 0:24:13.200 --> 0:24:16.040 From from New York? I came out to do a 0:24:16.200 --> 0:24:20.880 soundtrack album for the Lesson Zero movie and I loved 0:24:20.880 --> 0:24:23.920 that movie. Cool. I was living in a hotel for 0:24:24.320 --> 0:24:28.600 nine months and eventually decided to buy a house, not 0:24:29.520 --> 0:24:31.560 thinking I was going to live in LA. But when 0:24:31.600 --> 0:24:33.440 I came to La, I would stay in a house 0:24:33.480 --> 0:24:36.080 instead of living in a hotel, because if you've lived 0:24:36.080 --> 0:24:37.760 in a hotel for any period of time, it's not 0:24:37.840 --> 0:24:40.399 a great it's not a great way to live. So 0:24:40.640 --> 0:24:42.480 got a house thinking this would be the place I 0:24:42.520 --> 0:24:44.200 would come instead of going with the hotel. It was 0:24:44.320 --> 0:24:45.840 right across the street from the hotel, but it was 0:24:45.880 --> 0:24:50.160 a house so it felt more private. And then really 0:24:50.280 --> 0:24:54.920 just never went back. I never officially moved to California 0:24:55.119 --> 0:24:58.560 until after being there for about five years and realizing, well, 0:24:58.560 --> 0:25:00.920 I guess I live here now. Man. That less Less 0:25:00.920 --> 0:25:04.480 a zero soundtrack the Hazy Shaded Winter cover on that, Yeah, 0:25:04.560 --> 0:25:07.680 I produced that. Oh man, Yeah, I love the Bengals, 0:25:07.840 --> 0:25:10.720 Love love the Bengals, and and that's that must have 0:25:10.800 --> 0:25:13.880 been intimidating too, because that's a Simon a Garth Funcle song, 0:25:13.960 --> 0:25:17.240 and like, you know, just all of a sudden, I 0:25:17.359 --> 0:25:20.640 felt like I didn't know the Simon Garfuncle wrote that song. 0:25:20.760 --> 0:25:22.440 When I heard your version of it, I thought that 0:25:22.480 --> 0:25:24.160 they had written that song. And it feels like their 0:25:24.280 --> 0:25:27.720 song must have been a huge hill to climb to 0:25:27.920 --> 0:25:31.359 make that their song. You know, it actually was pretty natural. 0:25:31.440 --> 0:25:33.680 They picked it themselves. I had picked a song that 0:25:33.720 --> 0:25:35.280 I thought would be great for us to do together. 0:25:35.440 --> 0:25:39.080 That was that was a yardbird song. But I imagine 0:25:39.119 --> 0:25:41.400 them doing it in harm with harmonies, and it would 0:25:41.400 --> 0:25:43.840 have been a really cool thing. And then they're like, well, 0:25:43.840 --> 0:25:46.080 why don't we just do Hazy Shaw to Winters? Like, okay, fine, 0:25:46.400 --> 0:25:49.520 and then that ended up being what it was. And also, 0:25:49.920 --> 0:25:53.240 if I'm my memory serves me, h, Aerosmith was on 0:25:53.320 --> 0:25:55.760 that too, right, Yes, And I grew up, you know, 0:25:56.000 --> 0:25:58.200 Aerosmith was one of my favorite bands growing up, So 0:25:58.880 --> 0:26:01.680 that was the that the first time, I guess we'd 0:26:01.680 --> 0:26:04.359 already done Walk this Way, so it was the second 0:26:04.400 --> 0:26:06.720 time I got to work with them at that time. 0:26:06.760 --> 0:26:08.920 Were they getting along when you guys recorded that song? 0:26:09.080 --> 0:26:12.359 Is that good Aerosmith time? Or were they they fighting? 0:26:13.119 --> 0:26:17.359 I think they were always sort of cool, not cool, 0:26:17.520 --> 0:26:19.280 you know, like there was never a time where they 0:26:19.320 --> 0:26:22.159 weren't speaking that I knew, and there was always this 0:26:22.320 --> 0:26:27.240 sort of tension rivalry in the band, but it was 0:26:27.240 --> 0:26:29.960 always okay to be around them. I know. I know 0:26:30.040 --> 0:26:32.600 you've done a lot of country stuff. What was the 0:26:32.640 --> 0:26:34.960 country record that got you? Obviously you worked with Cash, 0:26:35.040 --> 0:26:37.200 but was there a specific country record that kind of 0:26:37.240 --> 0:26:41.080 got you? I mean, growing up, I liked like the 0:26:41.720 --> 0:26:43.959 pop country that you would hear when I was a kid, 0:26:44.040 --> 0:26:47.920 like Glenn Campbell was great. I watched Hehaw, you know, 0:26:48.080 --> 0:26:51.960 so the guys on Heehaw and always liked the you know, 0:26:52.119 --> 0:26:55.520 the picking, you know, like dueling banjo's like that that 0:26:55.720 --> 0:27:00.280 kind of I was like folk music as well, SOALY 0:27:00.320 --> 0:27:02.560 came through those roots. But I would never I would 0:27:02.600 --> 0:27:04.880 never think of myself as a fan of country music 0:27:04.960 --> 0:27:08.240 because so much of the country music at the time 0:27:08.280 --> 0:27:12.119 that I was really involved in looking for music was 0:27:12.320 --> 0:27:14.760 a kind of a plastic sound that that didn't really 0:27:14.800 --> 0:27:17.800 speak to me. I feel like, what's one of the 0:27:17.880 --> 0:27:21.679 great one of your great contributions is you've made country 0:27:21.760 --> 0:27:26.800 music great again, and I really appreciate that. I love 0:27:26.920 --> 0:27:29.119 speaking of Glenn Campbell man which tall i'man that might 0:27:29.160 --> 0:27:31.520 be the perfect song I think not only knows in 0:27:31.560 --> 0:27:35.080 which tall i'man might the best best songs of all time, 0:27:35.200 --> 0:27:38.639 you know, absolutely perfect. And then knowing that he played 0:27:38.760 --> 0:27:41.879 on you know Monkeys albums that I grew up loving. 0:27:42.160 --> 0:27:45.600 You know. Yeah, there's a great picture in my studio 0:27:45.680 --> 0:27:47.560 where the Monkeys came and they did I think they 0:27:47.640 --> 0:27:49.679 did well. I can't remember the song, but they did 0:27:49.760 --> 0:27:51.600 one of the songs with Mike Nesmith in my studio, 0:27:51.680 --> 0:27:54.399 and there's pictures in the wall of all those guys, 0:27:54.560 --> 0:27:57.720 Belton Jarvis, the producer bringing Monkeys in the studio. I 0:27:57.760 --> 0:27:59.880 feel like we don't have fun now like those guys 0:28:00.040 --> 0:28:02.720 had fun. I feel like we're we're you know, not 0:28:02.880 --> 0:28:05.040 really live in the dream the way they did. You know, 0:28:05.800 --> 0:28:08.800 you call the eighties, which are probably a blast. I 0:28:08.920 --> 0:28:11.680 don't know. It's always I have a feeling, it's always 0:28:13.040 --> 0:28:16.000 dudes in a room working hard to make something good 0:28:16.280 --> 0:28:18.399 is ultimately what it is, and everything else is just 0:28:18.600 --> 0:28:22.680 a fantasy. Yeah, I don't know, man. I read the 0:28:22.720 --> 0:28:25.560 stories of people with drug habits and yellow Lamborghinis and 0:28:25.560 --> 0:28:28.399 we missed them all, you know. Yeah, I don't know. 0:28:28.560 --> 0:28:31.000 I don't know that even those guys would say those 0:28:31.040 --> 0:28:34.159 were the fun times. The probably don't remember them. You know, 0:28:34.800 --> 0:28:36.840 are there any are they a limmus records that you have, 0:28:37.160 --> 0:28:38.840 Like I like the drum sound on this record. I 0:28:38.960 --> 0:28:40.760 like the guitar sound on this record, and the vocal 0:28:40.800 --> 0:28:44.040 sound on this record, anything that jumps out. There was 0:28:44.120 --> 0:28:46.280 a time that I thought that way, and then I've 0:28:47.080 --> 0:28:49.800 learned since I'll tell you. I'll tell you like there 0:28:49.920 --> 0:28:52.520 was a time when I want to learn all the secrets. Okay, Well, 0:28:53.680 --> 0:28:56.480 I really like the Highway to Hell album. I think 0:28:56.560 --> 0:29:00.960 for me maybe the perfect rock album, so so sonically, 0:29:01.680 --> 0:29:06.040 you know, that's good sounding guitars good sounding drums. If 0:29:06.080 --> 0:29:08.520 you try to make other drums sound like those drums, 0:29:09.360 --> 0:29:13.640 not only will they not sound like not sound like 0:29:13.680 --> 0:29:16.000 the Highway to Hell drums, they won't sound like the 0:29:16.120 --> 0:29:21.600 good version of what they actually are. So I've come 0:29:21.720 --> 0:29:24.920 to realize that I'm not trying to get a sound 0:29:25.000 --> 0:29:29.360 that's like that's been anywhere else. It's more using the 0:29:29.400 --> 0:29:32.560 stuff we have here, what's the best that we can 0:29:32.640 --> 0:29:36.000 make this stuff sound? And it really does open up 0:29:36.040 --> 0:29:39.440 the floodgates in terms of, you know, feeling like you 0:29:39.520 --> 0:29:44.680 need special equipment or special mics or special you know, 0:29:44.720 --> 0:29:46.440 it has to be a NIVE console, it has to 0:29:46.480 --> 0:29:50.120 be an API console. It's like they do they or 0:29:50.200 --> 0:29:51.960 it has to be done on tape or any of 0:29:52.000 --> 0:29:55.200 those things. It's like those things all have a sound, 0:29:55.840 --> 0:29:59.760 but they're not required, and we can make something good 0:30:00.040 --> 0:30:05.320 using pretty much anything. And I continually hear things that 0:30:05.440 --> 0:30:09.840 blow my mind that we're made in really suboptimal ways. 0:30:10.880 --> 0:30:15.760 So those are, you know, proof that it can be done. 0:30:16.680 --> 0:30:21.680 So I try not to get too fanatical about either 0:30:21.800 --> 0:30:25.360 equipment or the right way to do anything. I almost 0:30:25.400 --> 0:30:27.000 feel like if there's a right way to do it, 0:30:27.160 --> 0:30:30.760 chances are doing it a different way might be more interesting. Yeah, 0:30:31.640 --> 0:30:34.640 So always looking for the opportunity to find a new 0:30:34.760 --> 0:30:38.640 way to make something interesting. You know, I've never been 0:30:38.640 --> 0:30:40.960 able to nail anything I've ever tried to chase. I 0:30:41.040 --> 0:30:42.800 think you're I think you're right about that. I've never 0:30:42.840 --> 0:30:44.600 been able to nail any of the great sounds and 0:30:44.720 --> 0:30:47.640 records I've tried to chase, not once. Yeah, I think 0:30:47.680 --> 0:30:50.840 it's a losing battle. I think's it ends up being 0:30:50.880 --> 0:30:54.280 just a waste of time. When I first started producing 0:30:54.360 --> 0:30:58.880 records was a really unfortunate time of music. Around nineteen 0:30:58.960 --> 0:31:01.880 ninetynine is when I start taking it seriously. And I 0:31:01.960 --> 0:31:04.920 remember at that particular time, I mean, you probably were 0:31:04.960 --> 0:31:07.640 the only person to not doing that and have a success. 0:31:07.680 --> 0:31:10.560 But you had to have a click, and then you 0:31:10.680 --> 0:31:13.560 had to have you know, the drums miked a certain way, 0:31:13.560 --> 0:31:17.040 and you had to have a little loop in the background. 0:31:17.160 --> 0:31:19.840 You had to everything had to be perfect. You had 0:31:19.880 --> 0:31:21.920 to do everything in an assembly line fashion. You had 0:31:21.920 --> 0:31:23.720 to do the drums and the bass and the guitar 0:31:23.880 --> 0:31:26.680 and finally get to it later. And I remember starting 0:31:26.720 --> 0:31:30.160 off that way and I just I just sucked. I sucked, 0:31:30.400 --> 0:31:33.000 and the record sound like shit, and I just didn't 0:31:33.000 --> 0:31:34.720 know how to do it. I couldn't figure it out. 0:31:34.760 --> 0:31:36.920 And I think when I said, you know what, I'll 0:31:36.960 --> 0:31:40.680 just starve is when I started having success making records 0:31:40.720 --> 0:31:43.520 with everybody playing together. I only did it because I 0:31:43.600 --> 0:31:45.560 thought it was, you know, this will be a demo 0:31:45.680 --> 0:31:48.920 or whatever, and maybe maybe maybe someone will hear it 0:31:48.920 --> 0:31:50.720 and actually make the record. But yeah, I could. I 0:31:50.840 --> 0:31:53.360 sucked at the rules. I just and I tried to 0:31:53.440 --> 0:31:56.320 play them. It's not like I was defiant or playing 0:31:56.360 --> 0:31:57.760 or renegade. I just didn't know how to do it. 0:31:57.840 --> 0:32:01.640 And I don't understand technology same And I think, also, 0:32:01.720 --> 0:32:04.640 what you what you just said, like so often the 0:32:04.760 --> 0:32:07.440 demos of songs are better than the records, and it 0:32:07.560 --> 0:32:14.080 happens all the time. It's like the beauty of capturing 0:32:14.120 --> 0:32:18.200 a moment that sounds like a moment in time. It's 0:32:18.320 --> 0:32:22.320 not just everything's perfect and everything's in time and everything's 0:32:22.320 --> 0:32:25.960 in tune, but it's actually the one time they played 0:32:25.960 --> 0:32:28.959 it like this that's a thrilling feeling. And it's one 0:32:28.960 --> 0:32:30.920 of the things that I think is so great about 0:32:31.400 --> 0:32:35.920 bands from like Black Sabbath and led Zeppelin era is 0:32:36.160 --> 0:32:39.680 they didn't they didn't think of songs as a such 0:32:39.720 --> 0:32:43.520 a tightly structured thing. The length of a solo would go, 0:32:43.760 --> 0:32:47.240 however long the solo felt good. It's like if you 0:32:47.320 --> 0:32:49.120 hear the live if you hear the live versions of 0:32:49.200 --> 0:32:52.800 the songs, they're very often very different from the record versions. 0:32:53.680 --> 0:32:55.480 I guess the record versions were the live versions of 0:32:55.520 --> 0:32:59.280 that day right exactly exactly, and there was a there 0:32:59.360 --> 0:33:01.400 was a free them in the way that was done. 0:33:01.440 --> 0:33:04.320 And it seems like somewhere along the way, the idea 0:33:04.360 --> 0:33:07.280 that the record and live and everything was just supposed 0:33:07.320 --> 0:33:10.920 to be exactly the same and all perfect has has 0:33:11.640 --> 0:33:15.360 ticking some of the energy out of the process. You know, 0:33:15.480 --> 0:33:18.520 I never liked pre production on records. I think it's 0:33:18.520 --> 0:33:20.760 the anti christ. I just hate it for the same 0:33:20.840 --> 0:33:23.360 reasons you just said. You know, you always missed the 0:33:23.440 --> 0:33:25.920 best vocal performance the first time somebody sings a song. 0:33:26.440 --> 0:33:29.200 You always miss the intent in the riff after you've 0:33:29.240 --> 0:33:31.920 rehearsed it twenty times. You know, I think trying to 0:33:32.000 --> 0:33:34.240 treat record making as if you were making the demo 0:33:34.960 --> 0:33:38.000 is kind of my preferred way. You know, it's easy. 0:33:38.040 --> 0:33:40.440 I feel like it's cheating, you know, because I've had 0:33:40.520 --> 0:33:43.480 so many instances and still do for somebody, especially now 0:33:43.480 --> 0:33:45.440 everybody's got to technology at home and they're able to 0:33:45.480 --> 0:33:49.840 do some incredible demos at their house. And probably my 0:33:50.160 --> 0:33:53.200 worst thing is when somebody goes, let's listen to the demo, 0:33:54.280 --> 0:33:56.320 let's get let's get back to you know, let's let's 0:33:56.400 --> 0:33:57.800 let me listen to what I did here. It's like, 0:33:59.080 --> 0:34:00.760 you know, you've got it there, let's just use it. 0:34:00.920 --> 0:34:02.760 You know you've got it, you nail it, Let's just 0:34:02.960 --> 0:34:06.080 use it. I just had a conversation with an artist 0:34:06.680 --> 0:34:11.399 last week about their demos being too good, and I said, 0:34:11.480 --> 0:34:15.120 you know you, the demos are so good, like they're 0:34:15.200 --> 0:34:19.759 so produced that you can't even tell if the song 0:34:19.960 --> 0:34:23.640 is good enough, because the production is so good that 0:34:23.800 --> 0:34:28.400 you it sounds finished, like it sounds great. That's fascinating. 0:34:28.600 --> 0:34:30.239 You can't even tell this. That's there's a lot of 0:34:30.280 --> 0:34:33.160 vlidarity to what you're saying. It's true, it's like it 0:34:33.360 --> 0:34:35.680 may the song may be great, but you don't know 0:34:35.800 --> 0:34:38.239 because the harmonies are stacked in, they're so beautiful and 0:34:38.320 --> 0:34:41.480 the interaction between the parts and that's new instrument comes in. 0:34:41.600 --> 0:34:44.759 It sounds so cool, and so many things that we 0:34:45.000 --> 0:34:48.640 like happen. We think, oh, that's that's a great song, 0:34:48.760 --> 0:34:50.719 but it's it has nothing to do with the song 0:34:50.800 --> 0:34:54.319 at that point. That is so fascinating. Yeah, I think 0:34:54.480 --> 0:34:57.959 I think people are fooled by sounds over songs quite 0:34:57.960 --> 0:35:00.040 a bit. I think you're right about that, you and 0:35:00.280 --> 0:35:03.319 I think for the simple fact that some people can't 0:35:03.440 --> 0:35:05.799 hear a song and it's raw's form and get where 0:35:05.840 --> 0:35:08.040 it's going too. I think it's is a fault with 0:35:08.440 --> 0:35:10.680 you know, a lot of people down the road because 0:35:10.800 --> 0:35:14.040 it's it seems like you know, particularly and some country 0:35:14.080 --> 0:35:17.320 music stuff, they have these demos. The demos are done records, 0:35:17.760 --> 0:35:19.400 and people hear it it sounds like a record and 0:35:19.440 --> 0:35:22.200 like that's it. That's great, you know. But again if 0:35:22.239 --> 0:35:24.759 you if you just pulled down acoustic guitar and played it, 0:35:24.760 --> 0:35:27.279 maybe wouldn't feel the same way. So I love I 0:35:27.360 --> 0:35:30.480 love the iPhone demos. Those are my favorite ones. I 0:35:30.640 --> 0:35:32.680 love it when it's just somebody you know, you hear, 0:35:33.600 --> 0:35:36.160 press it record, lay it down on the table and 0:35:36.600 --> 0:35:39.600 all the you know, not quite finished. I love that 0:35:39.640 --> 0:35:42.120 kind of stuff. I love when there's somewhere you can 0:35:42.200 --> 0:35:46.759 get involved and and and run with it. You know, Yeah, 0:35:46.840 --> 0:35:50.880 as long as you hear this the seed idea that's like, oh, 0:35:51.000 --> 0:35:53.839 there's something good here. So who's on your bucket list? 0:35:53.920 --> 0:35:57.120 You've you've literally worked with everyone's heroes. Who's on your 0:35:57.160 --> 0:36:01.040 bucket list to make a record with? I don't know, 0:36:01.200 --> 0:36:03.520 I don't know. It's not it's not like a bucketless thing. 0:36:03.640 --> 0:36:06.920 It's more like I'll hear something that will get me 0:36:06.960 --> 0:36:10.000 excited about an artist, and I get excited in the moment. 0:36:10.080 --> 0:36:13.480 It's usually not a long term thing. What's the last 0:36:13.560 --> 0:36:16.120 artist that's done that to you? The last one I 0:36:16.160 --> 0:36:18.479 can think of that really got me excited was James Blake, 0:36:18.840 --> 0:36:20.160 and then I got to work with him, and that 0:36:20.239 --> 0:36:23.239 was really exciting because I loved his music. Yeah, he's 0:36:23.280 --> 0:36:26.239 kind of making his own lane, right, absolutely, Yeah, I 0:36:26.360 --> 0:36:30.520 like I like people who make something that's I love 0:36:30.640 --> 0:36:32.279 nine in Schnails for that reason too. At the time 0:36:32.280 --> 0:36:34.160 that nine and Schnails came along, there was nothing like it. 0:36:35.400 --> 0:36:39.719 Most of my favorite music is pretty um outside of 0:36:39.760 --> 0:36:42.520 the mainstream, but so good that it ends up becoming 0:36:42.600 --> 0:36:45.279 the mainstream. I mean, I think Chili Peppers are one 0:36:45.280 --> 0:36:47.680 of those bands for sure. You know, well, system of 0:36:47.680 --> 0:36:49.719 it down is a great example because they went from 0:36:49.840 --> 0:36:53.880 like I can remember producing the first record and the 0:36:54.520 --> 0:36:58.040 program director at Kai Rock, which is a big rocks 0:36:58.280 --> 0:37:01.520 you know, alternative rocks station, and Angelas saying this is 0:37:01.600 --> 0:37:03.279 the band we will never play on our station no 0:37:03.360 --> 0:37:06.759 matter what. And then one year later it was the 0:37:07.480 --> 0:37:10.800 both number one played and most requested band on the station. 0:37:11.760 --> 0:37:15.080 And but but if you heard it, it didn't sound 0:37:15.120 --> 0:37:17.920 like it belonged in the context of everything else going on. 0:37:18.000 --> 0:37:22.600 It was much too left of center. But I think 0:37:22.640 --> 0:37:24.640 the song that was on the radio was so catchy. 0:37:24.880 --> 0:37:27.400 You managed to make you know, every part of that 0:37:27.520 --> 0:37:31.439 song catchy. Well, it's them, It was really them. It's 0:37:31.480 --> 0:37:35.040 like they're The songwriting is so good and they play 0:37:35.200 --> 0:37:41.080 so well. Even though it wasn't familiar, it was and 0:37:41.239 --> 0:37:44.839 it was groovy. It was really danceable. And it's one 0:37:44.840 --> 0:37:48.760 of the things I like is heavy music that's danceable, 0:37:49.760 --> 0:37:52.239 and um, you know, so much of heavy metal is not. 0:37:52.640 --> 0:37:55.480 You know, the Iron Maidens and the Judas Priests tend 0:37:55.520 --> 0:37:58.560 to have a kind of a straight coldness to them, 0:37:58.600 --> 0:38:03.600 whereas ACB see Aerosmith, let Zeppelin have a groove about it, 0:38:03.680 --> 0:38:08.640 and even Slayer as fast as it is. It's groovy. 0:38:09.000 --> 0:38:12.600 It is. Of all the speed metal bands, they're the 0:38:12.640 --> 0:38:16.719 groovy one. Agreed. So how come there's never been a 0:38:16.800 --> 0:38:18.640 Rick Rubin album? Have you ever thought about doing that? 0:38:19.360 --> 0:38:21.359 Never really thought about it. I think it would maybe 0:38:21.440 --> 0:38:24.919 be too hard to come up with what I would. 0:38:25.040 --> 0:38:26.880 I would want it to do too many things that 0:38:26.960 --> 0:38:30.520 it couldn't do. Beautiful thing about it? You know, Just 0:38:30.640 --> 0:38:34.480 pick pick one thing and have all the of all 0:38:34.520 --> 0:38:38.160 the people you work with it you love, make fantasy 0:38:38.239 --> 0:38:41.680 League bands of them. Take you take Joe Perry, put 0:38:41.760 --> 0:38:44.520 him in a band with you know, Angus Young, and 0:38:44.840 --> 0:38:48.160 then put you know the drummer for you know, Chad 0:38:48.239 --> 0:38:50.360 Smith in there or whatever. Just make make Kaja a 0:38:50.440 --> 0:38:53.760 dream team. You know, Yeah, I can't. I can't imagine 0:38:53.800 --> 0:38:57.400 doing it. Come on, I think it'd be fun, you know. 0:38:58.280 --> 0:39:01.480 Tell me about your You did an album with I 0:39:01.520 --> 0:39:05.560 guess we'd call it a concept album I did. There's 0:39:05.600 --> 0:39:07.960 there's a record I adore written by an English guy 0:39:08.080 --> 0:39:11.239 named Paul Kennelly called White Mansions, and it's just uh, 0:39:12.000 --> 0:39:13.840 it was really cool again for me. It was a 0:39:13.920 --> 0:39:16.120 gateway record of country music because it was produced by 0:39:16.160 --> 0:39:18.759 Glenn John's and done in England at Olympic Studios, which 0:39:18.800 --> 0:39:21.080 I think some of the best records in history were 0:39:21.360 --> 0:39:22.800 made out of the studio. But it had Wayale and 0:39:22.840 --> 0:39:26.960 Jennings and Jesse Coulter, and had Eric Clapton and his 0:39:27.080 --> 0:39:30.839 band playing on the record, and Steve Cash and all 0:39:30.840 --> 0:39:34.320 these these great Southern people going over to England and 0:39:34.360 --> 0:39:37.720 making this record, and it just it was a concept about, 0:39:38.160 --> 0:39:40.160 you know, the beginning, middle and end of the Civil 0:39:40.239 --> 0:39:45.200 War and the reconstruction and it's just a beautiful story 0:39:45.400 --> 0:39:48.760 and it's cinematic, and I always love records that are cinematic. 0:39:48.800 --> 0:39:51.720 I think that's why I love you Nancy Son Sinatra 0:39:51.800 --> 0:39:53.960 Bang Bang or something. It's like a cinematic Even though 0:39:53.960 --> 0:39:56.640 it's one guitar, that record really took me somewhere. So 0:39:56.680 --> 0:39:59.400 I've always wanted to do a concert record. So I 0:39:59.560 --> 0:40:02.319 kind of got some people that I love that are 0:40:02.400 --> 0:40:05.440 great singers to all sing about the stories of their 0:40:05.520 --> 0:40:07.359 childhood and growing up. And it could have been about 0:40:07.360 --> 0:40:10.440 a grandparent, a son, or a daughter or parent whatever, 0:40:10.800 --> 0:40:12.600 these Southern stories. And so we met a record called 0:40:12.640 --> 0:40:15.960 Southern Family, and it was it was really cool just 0:40:16.120 --> 0:40:18.600 to make a record for art sake, and not for 0:40:18.719 --> 0:40:21.600 commercial steak, not for any other reason. And I'm really 0:40:22.440 --> 0:40:24.920 blown away that these people let me work with them 0:40:25.600 --> 0:40:27.960 for one and second of all, the label actually put 0:40:28.040 --> 0:40:30.480 it out because it sounds like, Okay, I'm gonna go 0:40:30.480 --> 0:40:33.359 to the label. I got a concert record. Okay, it's 0:40:33.360 --> 0:40:35.680 about southern people. Okay, we're gonna have a lot of 0:40:35.680 --> 0:40:37.400 people on Okay, how are you gonna market it? Like? 0:40:37.719 --> 0:40:40.680 There really is no there's no way to make a 0:40:40.840 --> 0:40:43.360 concert record go. I don't think you know. But it 0:40:43.520 --> 0:40:46.200 was just pure art piece and I'm glad I got 0:40:46.239 --> 0:40:48.840 to do it, and I'm really proud of that record, beautiful. 0:40:48.880 --> 0:40:51.120 Can you can you play us something off of White Mansions? 0:40:51.200 --> 0:40:52.840 Just because I don't know that album. I'd love to 0:40:52.920 --> 0:40:56.359 hear what the inspiration. There's a song called Story to Tell. 0:40:56.760 --> 0:40:59.200 It's what the first song on the record, and I'll 0:40:59.200 --> 0:41:03.520 show you what I like about it, Okay, just to me. 0:41:03.640 --> 0:41:06.560 It's a masterpiece. And the thing that's brilliant about it. 0:41:07.680 --> 0:41:11.000 There's so much restraint in that song, and if you 0:41:11.160 --> 0:41:13.279 if you pay attention, the strings kind of sneak in 0:41:13.480 --> 0:41:16.040 and they're really cool because the strings aren't doing a 0:41:16.120 --> 0:41:19.600 typical string arrangement. It's not fifty things going in fifty 0:41:19.640 --> 0:41:23.160 different ways. And the cello aren't splitting off from the violins. 0:41:23.200 --> 0:41:27.080 The violas it stays as one in this unison note 0:41:27.360 --> 0:41:29.200 and it'll stay on one note and at the end 0:41:29.280 --> 0:41:33.120 it finally go somewhere and it's so powerful, and the 0:41:33.239 --> 0:41:38.879 snare is not existed in the song. It's a sidestick sidestick, wait, wait, wait, 0:41:39.400 --> 0:41:42.120 and then snare drum and then strings open up and 0:41:42.160 --> 0:41:45.080 it's so it's it's a masterclass in production, I think, 0:41:45.080 --> 0:41:47.959 because it's just the tension. It's supposed to be tension, 0:41:47.960 --> 0:41:50.600 because it's the first story in the in the tale 0:41:50.680 --> 0:41:53.800 of the record, But it's just it makes you worry. 0:41:53.840 --> 0:41:55.400 It makes you worry, It makes you worry, and it 0:41:55.520 --> 0:41:59.279 makes you kind of I don't know. It just it 0:41:59.440 --> 0:42:02.279 becomes answer from something that's so small, and the and 0:42:02.360 --> 0:42:04.360 the piano at the beginning, just the diamonds on the 0:42:04.440 --> 0:42:08.160 piano that held chords. Is so simple, it's so brilliant 0:42:08.200 --> 0:42:11.960 and her Vogel you can hear every tremble in it. Beautiful. 0:42:12.000 --> 0:42:14.640 How did you come across it? Shooter Jennings played it 0:42:14.680 --> 0:42:16.320 for me beautiful, first time I ever heard it. He 0:42:17.120 --> 0:42:19.759 you know, that's his mom on that and he played 0:42:19.760 --> 0:42:21.200 it for me and it was again. That was a 0:42:21.239 --> 0:42:23.800 record that got me into country music, you know, written 0:42:23.800 --> 0:42:26.239 by an English guy, you know, recorded in England. It 0:42:26.400 --> 0:42:28.719 seems like a sideways way to get into it, but 0:42:28.800 --> 0:42:32.359 that was the record. That record to me is a cornerstone. Yeah. 0:42:32.400 --> 0:42:37.279 There's something about when music travels a distance, right, it 0:42:37.480 --> 0:42:43.600 takes on a different almost a fantasy like approach. Like 0:42:43.960 --> 0:42:49.239 the Beatles were making American blues and rock music or 0:42:49.360 --> 0:42:52.839 led Zeppelin, we're making American blues music, but they took 0:42:52.880 --> 0:42:56.839 it to an extreme that no true bluesman men would 0:42:56.840 --> 0:43:00.800 ever do that. It would be it would be garish 0:43:01.520 --> 0:43:04.000 for a bluesman. You know, it's like but because they're 0:43:04.000 --> 0:43:06.400 seeing it from a distance, almost like a spaghetti western, 0:43:06.520 --> 0:43:12.480 you know, like a it's viewed from this, it's from 0:43:12.520 --> 0:43:14.759 a distance and you're imagining what it could be. Same 0:43:14.760 --> 0:43:18.160 as true in hip hop, like the original hip hop 0:43:18.360 --> 0:43:23.360 was an inner city thing and the inner city groups 0:43:24.360 --> 0:43:28.320 like Africa, Bambada and Saul Sonic Force, they would dress 0:43:28.680 --> 0:43:32.080 like more like Parliament like, they would dress like people 0:43:32.520 --> 0:43:37.160 like from outer space. They didn't embrace where they were from. 0:43:37.920 --> 0:43:40.000 And then it took like Run DMC, who were more 0:43:40.080 --> 0:43:45.879 suburban kids, to dress more like b boy gangsters from 0:43:45.960 --> 0:43:49.640 the hood because they really came from the suburbs. And 0:43:49.800 --> 0:43:53.440 there's this like seeing it from a distance, you can 0:43:53.600 --> 0:43:58.200 romanticize the story and embellish it in ways that are 0:43:58.480 --> 0:44:01.839 really thrilling for the uh, for the audience, for us, 0:44:02.040 --> 0:44:04.880 you know, that's fascinating. I never really thought like about that. 0:44:05.000 --> 0:44:07.960 I saw this great documentary recently on Connie Plank, the 0:44:08.800 --> 0:44:11.040 you know kind of the the producer did a lot 0:44:11.080 --> 0:44:16.759 of the German Yeah, and Uh. When I was a kid, 0:44:16.840 --> 0:44:20.279 I loved Houdini, the hip hop group Houdini. I love them. 0:44:20.360 --> 0:44:22.840 I was way into it. I didn't realize that they 0:44:22.880 --> 0:44:27.400 went to Germany to record with Connie Plank, and there's 0:44:27.480 --> 0:44:31.240 like six degrees of separation from kraft Work to to Houdini, 0:44:31.280 --> 0:44:33.200 and I didn't I didn't even put two and two together. 0:44:33.400 --> 0:44:35.640 But again, I think I'd like them because they sounded 0:44:35.640 --> 0:44:37.239 like they're from outer space, you know what I mean, 0:44:37.840 --> 0:44:40.200 Like it was every the sounds were so weird, and 0:44:40.760 --> 0:44:44.239 it didn't sound like you know, the I don't know, 0:44:44.280 --> 0:44:46.200 it didn't sound like where I grew up in Savannah. 0:44:46.560 --> 0:44:48.359 It sound like it was coming again from a whole, 0:44:48.480 --> 0:44:50.960 whole different place. You know. I love music that does that, 0:44:51.080 --> 0:44:52.839 and I guess maybe you're right. I mean that has 0:44:53.400 --> 0:44:56.520 its very southern, but something else has stirred in there, 0:44:56.600 --> 0:44:59.880 you know. Yeah, it's southern in a way that someone 0:45:00.000 --> 0:45:04.040 one who doesn't live through it could love it. Do 0:45:04.160 --> 0:45:07.080 you know, Like, if you're living through it, you see 0:45:07.120 --> 0:45:09.680 the good and the bad. If you're looking at it 0:45:09.800 --> 0:45:12.400 from the outside, it's just a romantic vision and you 0:45:12.480 --> 0:45:15.880 can really embrace it and maybe go too far, you know, 0:45:16.040 --> 0:45:22.359 in a way that it becomes um more theatrically beautiful. Right, 0:45:22.840 --> 0:45:25.279 we're gonna take a quick break, then we'll be back 0:45:25.320 --> 0:45:31.560 with Dave Cobb. We're back with the rest of Rick 0:45:31.600 --> 0:45:35.840 Rubin's conversation with Dave Cobb. Let's talk more about producing. So, 0:45:35.960 --> 0:45:38.880 how did you end up in the in nineteen ninety 0:45:38.920 --> 0:45:43.400 nine you find yourself starting to produce? How that? How 0:45:43.440 --> 0:45:45.600 did it come about? How did you switch from being 0:45:45.680 --> 0:45:48.759 the studio guitar player. Well, I was in a band 0:45:48.760 --> 0:45:51.200 again at that time, signed and it just felt like 0:45:51.280 --> 0:45:54.560 it was it was I was stuck because the label 0:45:54.680 --> 0:45:56.560 was trying to sell to another label, and I wasn't 0:45:56.600 --> 0:46:00.040 going to ever get out of this deal. So I 0:46:00.080 --> 0:46:03.960 started producing friends. But basically I just fucking lied. I 0:46:04.040 --> 0:46:06.200 said I was a producer. I wasn't a fucking producer. 0:46:06.200 --> 0:46:08.600 I know shit about producing. I didn't go to producing school, 0:46:09.040 --> 0:46:10.600 you know, I didn't know shit. I just fucking made 0:46:10.640 --> 0:46:12.680 it up. One day. It's like, I'm a producer, and 0:46:12.800 --> 0:46:14.480 then i'm you know, then I'd like, you know, I 0:46:14.640 --> 0:46:16.960 gotta I gotta go to Los Angeles because I want 0:46:16.960 --> 0:46:18.600 to do rock and roll records and I gotta be 0:46:18.719 --> 0:46:21.080 out there. And when I got out there, I was 0:46:21.120 --> 0:46:23.400 producing a couple of little things here and there and 0:46:23.560 --> 0:46:25.279 met a producer manager, and all of a sudden, I 0:46:25.320 --> 0:46:27.800 was a legitimate producer, you know. I was on a 0:46:27.840 --> 0:46:31.279 producer roster. So I kind of lied my way into 0:46:31.360 --> 0:46:35.239 the whole thing, you know. And then after i'd really 0:46:35.280 --> 0:46:38.040 worked with Shooter Jennings, I met this guy Jamie Johnson 0:46:38.080 --> 0:46:41.480 through him, and then we had some records kind of 0:46:41.560 --> 0:46:43.480 work with him. And then I met Sturgil Simpson through 0:46:43.600 --> 0:46:45.840 him and we did a Stergil Meta Modern record, and 0:46:46.680 --> 0:46:51.000 then Jason Isbll just kind of kept rolling, you know what, 0:46:51.120 --> 0:46:53.920 would have been the rock artists that you would have 0:46:54.120 --> 0:46:56.080 moved out in the hopes of getting to work with 0:46:56.160 --> 0:46:58.040 at that time. Well I did. I mean I would have. 0:46:58.280 --> 0:47:00.399 I would have loved to work with, you know, Paul 0:47:00.480 --> 0:47:02.919 Rodgers on something you know. But I've loved to work 0:47:03.000 --> 0:47:06.960 with you know, anything you know relating to the stuff 0:47:06.960 --> 0:47:10.840 I grew up And I mean obviously Ozzie or or 0:47:10.880 --> 0:47:13.000 any of the bands that that I really loved growing up, 0:47:13.320 --> 0:47:15.160 Humble Pie, that would have been a dream one. But 0:47:15.280 --> 0:47:17.440 he was Steve, Steve Marriott or somebody like that at 0:47:17.480 --> 0:47:19.839 the time. But I didn't get to work with any 0:47:19.840 --> 0:47:22.759 that stuff. But I did find work with this band 0:47:22.920 --> 0:47:25.279 rival Sons that kind of took off in the rock world, 0:47:25.280 --> 0:47:27.600 and I've gotten to work with a bunch of rock 0:47:27.680 --> 0:47:30.520 bands through them, so I still get to do quite 0:47:30.520 --> 0:47:32.560 a bit of rock and roll and I still love it. 0:47:32.960 --> 0:47:36.040 But yeah, man, the producer thing, I just I fell 0:47:36.120 --> 0:47:38.000 in love with it because I've always been a studio rat, 0:47:38.040 --> 0:47:39.839 even when I was in a band or a session player. 0:47:39.840 --> 0:47:43.520 I love being in the studio. I love working really fast, 0:47:43.680 --> 0:47:46.160 capturing a moment like like you said, like a yearbook, 0:47:46.280 --> 0:47:50.439 and just remembering that moment, and I was a session player, 0:47:50.480 --> 0:47:52.360 so I played drums and bass and guitar. So I 0:47:52.520 --> 0:47:56.960 love helping people find the parts. And I just love 0:47:57.000 --> 0:47:59.400 getting involved with the songs and just being around it. 0:47:59.480 --> 0:48:02.120 And even if you know my day is done, I'll 0:48:02.160 --> 0:48:04.080 just hanging around the studio two or three hours later 0:48:04.280 --> 0:48:06.880 and just screw off and look at stuff. You know. 0:48:07.239 --> 0:48:08.880 Still I have the same feeling about a studio that 0:48:08.920 --> 0:48:11.480 I had when I got my first real guitar. I 0:48:11.480 --> 0:48:15.719 remember getting an SG really bad seventies, like the worst one, 0:48:16.400 --> 0:48:18.640 Gibson SG, and putting it into my bed and just 0:48:18.800 --> 0:48:21.240 looking at it until I fell asleep. And I remember 0:48:21.320 --> 0:48:23.800 smelling the case, the smell of a Gibson guitar in 0:48:23.880 --> 0:48:25.799 a case, you know. And I feel that way about 0:48:25.800 --> 0:48:27.879 a studio still. I just you can't get me out 0:48:27.920 --> 0:48:30.080 of them, you know. And if I have a day off, 0:48:30.160 --> 0:48:34.080 I'm either looking at stuff about studios or reading about 0:48:34.640 --> 0:48:37.360 you know, engineers or producers or whatever it is. I 0:48:37.440 --> 0:48:40.800 just I'm completely enthralled with everything about studios. You know, 0:48:41.040 --> 0:48:44.200 you typically play on the records that you produce. I do. 0:48:44.520 --> 0:48:47.920 I play a lot. Jimmy Miller one of my favorite producers. 0:48:48.000 --> 0:48:50.320 He produced my favorite air of stone stuff, you know, 0:48:50.480 --> 0:48:53.680 kind of let it bleed through exile. He was a 0:48:53.760 --> 0:48:56.080 drummer and he would go in from what I was told. 0:48:56.400 --> 0:48:58.839 He would play percussion with the band and he kind 0:48:58.880 --> 0:49:01.320 of helped kind of guy the rhythm and the field. 0:49:01.360 --> 0:49:05.399 So a lot of records. I play acoustic guitar as 0:49:05.440 --> 0:49:07.400 a shaker, you know, I treated like a shaker or 0:49:07.440 --> 0:49:10.239 a play a shaker or whatever it is. Instead of 0:49:10.320 --> 0:49:13.719 having a click, I'll just become, you know, the click 0:49:14.120 --> 0:49:16.080 or the human click for it. So yeah, I like 0:49:16.200 --> 0:49:17.320 being in there. I don't. I don't know if I 0:49:17.400 --> 0:49:19.680 can feel it unless I'm kind of in it. And 0:49:19.840 --> 0:49:22.200 even if I'm not playing on something i'm in the 0:49:22.280 --> 0:49:24.359 room with the band, I don't. I don't. I never 0:49:24.480 --> 0:49:28.000 liked the separation of control room and studio. I love 0:49:28.080 --> 0:49:29.719 being in the middle of it the whole time. I 0:49:29.920 --> 0:49:32.680 love the instant communication, especially if you have a guitar on, 0:49:32.800 --> 0:49:34.520 you can go, Okay, why don't we try this part 0:49:34.560 --> 0:49:36.839 for a bridge or try this chord here. I feel 0:49:36.880 --> 0:49:38.840 like it's a it's a bit of a crutch to 0:49:38.920 --> 0:49:42.200 have a guitar on the whole time. It helps me 0:49:42.320 --> 0:49:46.160 work faster. You know absolutely. Are you ever surprised after 0:49:46.280 --> 0:49:49.680 being on the floor going in and hearing it through speakers? 0:49:50.360 --> 0:49:55.600 For sure, it's usually sounds like shit, But now usually 0:49:55.640 --> 0:49:57.360 I feel like you can feel the take as it 0:49:57.560 --> 0:49:59.360 as it goes down. I feel like you kind of 0:49:59.400 --> 0:50:02.000 feel that one. But I've definitely been surprised where ones 0:50:02.120 --> 0:50:04.399 I didn't think was the one was the one too. 0:50:05.160 --> 0:50:07.320 You know, somebody else may may have a better idea. 0:50:08.280 --> 0:50:10.560 Somebody said, you know that that second one, we should 0:50:10.600 --> 0:50:12.400 listen to that one too, and then they're right and 0:50:12.440 --> 0:50:15.800 I'm wrong. Somebody told me a long time ago about 0:50:16.520 --> 0:50:18.839 sometimes and actually I think if somebody used to work 0:50:18.840 --> 0:50:23.080 with you, Greg Gordon, it's a kind of a mentor 0:50:23.160 --> 0:50:25.000 to me. And Greg Gordon told me it's like sometimes 0:50:25.080 --> 0:50:27.799 it just feels like a record, and I'm always looking 0:50:27.840 --> 0:50:29.920 for that take. It's like it just feels like a record. 0:50:30.560 --> 0:50:31.919 You know, I don't know what it is. I don't 0:50:31.920 --> 0:50:34.200 know what that means. Yeah, sometimes it just kind of 0:50:34.320 --> 0:50:37.279 comes together in a funny way where like the take 0:50:37.360 --> 0:50:41.640 before it, everyone's doing pretty much the same thing, and 0:50:41.800 --> 0:50:44.480 the next one's not like everyone's playing a lot better. 0:50:44.560 --> 0:50:46.839 It's pretty similar, but all of a sudden it goes 0:50:46.880 --> 0:50:50.800 from like mediocre to mind blowings. Yeah, I don't know 0:50:50.840 --> 0:50:54.040 what that is, but there's something to it. And God, 0:50:54.080 --> 0:50:57.320 I think I think you know, being in the studio, 0:50:57.360 --> 0:50:59.440 you kind of just make stuff up and and it 0:50:59.560 --> 0:51:02.680 just it's a lot of feeling as opposed to being 0:51:02.760 --> 0:51:05.439 clinical about it. I'm never clinical about anything. I don't 0:51:05.520 --> 0:51:08.120 I don't think I have that kind of smarts to 0:51:08.160 --> 0:51:10.880 be super clinical about stuff. I'm always looking for what 0:51:11.440 --> 0:51:13.000 was it about that one? It's just like you're saying 0:51:13.080 --> 0:51:14.920 that take, that's the one. I don't know why I 0:51:15.000 --> 0:51:16.640 can inscribe it to you. Do you do a lot 0:51:16.680 --> 0:51:18.000 of tend to do a lot of takes or No, 0:51:18.920 --> 0:51:21.839 not really, but I have done a lot of takes 0:51:21.880 --> 0:51:24.879 on certain things. I mean usually I think by fourth 0:51:24.960 --> 0:51:26.440 or fifth take, I think you kind of have a 0:51:26.520 --> 0:51:29.640 good sense of the song. You know. I'm not somebody 0:51:29.680 --> 0:51:32.680 that goes in there and just says, try something else. 0:51:32.719 --> 0:51:36.279 So I think I'm always kind of really involved, and 0:51:37.320 --> 0:51:40.360 if there's a part that's missing, I'll suggest something. I 0:51:40.360 --> 0:51:42.480 don't necessarily write it, but I'll suggest to somebody to 0:51:42.560 --> 0:51:45.600 write it. So I like to work super quick, super fast, 0:51:45.760 --> 0:51:48.800 and just get it down because I think the tension 0:51:48.920 --> 0:51:51.720 span mainly in blaming it on myself, I think goes 0:51:51.920 --> 0:51:54.720 after you do tons of takes. But there's there's definitely 0:51:54.760 --> 0:51:57.879 been times where we've recorded a song and felt pretty 0:51:57.920 --> 0:51:59.440 good about it, listened to it later ago like I 0:51:59.520 --> 0:52:01.000 don't know, if we got it, I'll just recut it. 0:52:01.680 --> 0:52:03.680 It's easier than I don't think, you know, I don't 0:52:03.719 --> 0:52:05.360 think I could cut ninety takes of a song. I 0:52:05.440 --> 0:52:07.440 think i'd be over it. You know, what about you? 0:52:07.520 --> 0:52:09.320 How do you do it? Takes? What do you do? Debates? 0:52:09.480 --> 0:52:12.560 Really depends on the artist goes different ways. Sometimes it's 0:52:13.200 --> 0:52:16.000 sometimes it happens and you know, one or two or 0:52:16.040 --> 0:52:18.239 two or three takes, and sometimes it's I've been on 0:52:18.360 --> 0:52:22.280 projects where we've done I don't know, ninety takes or something. 0:52:22.719 --> 0:52:26.719 You know, it's like wow, who depends on the artist? Yeah, 0:52:26.760 --> 0:52:28.839 I love going in and usually I try to get 0:52:29.000 --> 0:52:32.440 you know, two songs a day done. Still nice, And 0:52:32.480 --> 0:52:34.839 it's not it's not because it's like a bragging right 0:52:34.880 --> 0:52:36.319 to get that done, but I just love the fin 0:52:36.440 --> 0:52:38.680 sense of completion. I mean, I mean, I'll be totally completely, 0:52:38.680 --> 0:52:42.040 but just the basic of two songs and then then 0:52:42.080 --> 0:52:45.560 I like kind of goofing off. I've really value goofing 0:52:45.600 --> 0:52:47.720 off in the studio, which is probably something I should 0:52:47.800 --> 0:52:51.680 never say out loud, especially when when labels are paying 0:52:51.719 --> 0:52:53.400 me money to make records. I shouldn't tell them that 0:52:53.400 --> 0:52:54.879 I love gooping off in the studio. But I think 0:52:54.880 --> 0:52:58.600 there's a lot of the time of camaraderie and joking 0:52:58.680 --> 0:53:02.520 around and listen to records, and that informs what the 0:53:02.560 --> 0:53:07.040 record becomes. Absolutely, and sometimes sometimes the best ideas come 0:53:07.239 --> 0:53:13.399 in the non work time in the studios. Always, Yeah, 0:53:13.800 --> 0:53:16.960 I produced a Less Strokes album, and on that I 0:53:17.120 --> 0:53:20.680 had them come to the studio and just jam every 0:53:20.800 --> 0:53:24.040 day with the idea of creating something new because in 0:53:24.080 --> 0:53:25.840 their minds, you know, the album was written, they already 0:53:25.880 --> 0:53:28.399 had all the songs like come in play every day 0:53:28.440 --> 0:53:31.040 before I get there for an hour, and when I 0:53:31.120 --> 0:53:33.320 get there, you know, have something to play for me 0:53:33.440 --> 0:53:35.520 that you didn't have when you got to the studio, 0:53:36.400 --> 0:53:39.959 but that you make in that hour. And a couple 0:53:40.000 --> 0:53:41.880 of things ended up being on the album coming out 0:53:41.920 --> 0:53:45.600 of those sort of just experimental before the real session 0:53:45.760 --> 0:53:49.440 starts playing, you know, and you're recording the whole time, right, 0:53:50.239 --> 0:53:53.239 We were recording the whole time, but it was more 0:53:53.320 --> 0:53:55.279 about the writing of it. It was more about them 0:53:55.320 --> 0:53:58.640 being in the room together and playing sometimes. It actually 0:53:58.760 --> 0:54:03.080 the take came for that so cool playtime. Sometimes it 0:54:03.239 --> 0:54:05.920 was just like, oh, this is really good if we 0:54:06.040 --> 0:54:08.080 chop it up like this and then make it into 0:54:08.080 --> 0:54:10.480 a song and then they would play it. Wow, that 0:54:10.680 --> 0:54:14.719 is so brilliant, that is so smart. Shit just a 0:54:14.800 --> 0:54:17.360 doubt again, and that, I'll tell you. The idea for 0:54:17.480 --> 0:54:21.759 that came from the fact that they all while they 0:54:21.840 --> 0:54:23.719 all came from New York and grew up, you know, 0:54:23.800 --> 0:54:27.279 playing together all the time. As bands get older, they 0:54:27.360 --> 0:54:29.439 ended up moving to all different places, so they don't 0:54:29.520 --> 0:54:32.680 really get to play as a band as much as 0:54:32.760 --> 0:54:35.680 they used to. So they were coming together for the 0:54:35.760 --> 0:54:38.680 first time in you know, really years to make a 0:54:38.760 --> 0:54:42.799 record and it felt like even if nothing came from 0:54:42.880 --> 0:54:45.719 it writing, just being in the room playing together as 0:54:45.719 --> 0:54:48.800 a band with no stakes would end up having a 0:54:48.840 --> 0:54:51.440 good effect on the performances later in that day. It's 0:54:51.480 --> 0:54:56.960 also a different like when you're trying to execute something 0:54:57.040 --> 0:54:59.719 and you know what it is, is different than when 0:54:59.760 --> 0:55:02.200 you're just playing free to make something up. And I 0:55:02.320 --> 0:55:06.600 thought having those muscles open, those make something up muscles 0:55:06.680 --> 0:55:10.880 open to bring into the performance of the thing we 0:55:10.960 --> 0:55:13.279 know we're doing could be a good thing and turned 0:55:13.280 --> 0:55:16.279 out to be. That is absolutely brilliant. It probably made 0:55:16.320 --> 0:55:18.120 them feel like they were in rehearsal space, you know, 0:55:18.200 --> 0:55:21.359 in the parents basement or whatever, when they're fifteen again 0:55:21.440 --> 0:55:24.760 or something. You know. Yeah, really sharp, I love that idea. 0:55:25.040 --> 0:55:27.040 I'm gonna steal it. I'll send you a pick. Yeah. 0:55:27.040 --> 0:55:31.080 I think it's any anything we can do to get 0:55:31.120 --> 0:55:33.879 an artist to tune into their lives at the time 0:55:33.920 --> 0:55:37.759 that they were doing their either their best work or 0:55:37.840 --> 0:55:42.080 the time that they most loved what they did. You know, 0:55:42.080 --> 0:55:44.239 because if you work with some artists that have been 0:55:44.280 --> 0:55:47.960 doing it for a long time, it has become a job, right, 0:55:48.400 --> 0:55:51.799 whereas when you're first doing it, there's usually much more 0:55:51.880 --> 0:55:55.040 of a passion in the process. And you can imagine 0:55:55.080 --> 0:55:57.920 the difference between making your first or second album and 0:55:58.080 --> 0:56:01.920 making your fortieth album, you know, or your fiftieth album. 0:56:02.440 --> 0:56:05.279 Those are different things. No, you're absolutely right. That is 0:56:05.320 --> 0:56:09.040 such a smart concept. Just have them get together and play. 0:56:09.120 --> 0:56:11.520 That doesn't happen, You're right. After band's been together for 0:56:11.560 --> 0:56:13.839 a while, they don't really do that anymore, you know. Yeah, 0:56:13.920 --> 0:56:16.440 there's one of the I can remember when I worked 0:56:16.480 --> 0:56:21.080 with Metallica, suggesting because they're very popular band, you know, 0:56:21.960 --> 0:56:26.160 very well known, well loved band, you can rely on 0:56:26.239 --> 0:56:27.800 the fact that people are going to listen to a 0:56:27.880 --> 0:56:32.759 Metallica record, and that goes into your process of people 0:56:32.800 --> 0:56:36.400 pay attention to us, and that's not always okay when 0:56:36.400 --> 0:56:40.120 you're starting, that's not the case. So one of the 0:56:40.800 --> 0:56:45.440 writing assignments was, imagine there was no such band as Metallica, 0:56:46.520 --> 0:56:51.120 and imagine you guys are going to enter a Battle 0:56:51.160 --> 0:56:54.200 of the Band's contest next week and you have to 0:56:54.280 --> 0:56:56.360 write music that's going to blow everybody away in the 0:56:56.480 --> 0:57:01.000 room and nobody knows who you are. Oh man, that's 0:57:01.040 --> 0:57:06.160 why you're Rick Rubin. That is brilliant. I'm taking notes 0:57:06.200 --> 0:57:09.359 because those are just brilliant, brilliant statements. It's so true though, 0:57:09.520 --> 0:57:12.160 it's very true. I've absolutely been in the studio with 0:57:12.680 --> 0:57:16.360 artists who've made multiple records and they go, you know, oh, 0:57:16.520 --> 0:57:18.480 let's do a groove like blah blah blah like our 0:57:18.520 --> 0:57:20.120 other record, and we need one of these for the record, 0:57:20.160 --> 0:57:22.680 because that's what we do that we always have. You know, 0:57:22.760 --> 0:57:25.320 the one, you know, acoustic song on the record. You 0:57:25.360 --> 0:57:28.240 know that's that's what you're saying. It's so brilliant valid 0:57:28.320 --> 0:57:31.200 because it really isn't. I mean, people get attracted to 0:57:31.600 --> 0:57:33.720 when they discover a band, and I guess getting a 0:57:33.800 --> 0:57:37.920 banded rediscover you know that that themselves too, is I 0:57:37.960 --> 0:57:41.120 don't know, that's so smart, so smart it's I could 0:57:41.160 --> 0:57:43.680 remember when I first said to Johnny Cash, like the 0:57:43.800 --> 0:57:46.720 goal would be to make the best album you've ever made, 0:57:46.800 --> 0:57:49.200 and he looked at me like I was insane, Like 0:57:49.400 --> 0:57:52.920 like that just seemed like, you know, here's someone who 0:57:52.960 --> 0:57:54.920 had made a lot of records over a long period 0:57:54.960 --> 0:57:56.640 of time, a lot of records that people didn't care 0:57:56.680 --> 0:58:00.680 about for probably twenty years. He'd been dropped from two labels, 0:58:01.240 --> 0:58:03.520 and the suggestion that we're going to make his best 0:58:03.600 --> 0:58:08.360 album ever just seemed like so foreign. But that's the job, Like, 0:58:09.040 --> 0:58:10.520 why are we doing it if we're not going to 0:58:10.600 --> 0:58:13.120 make the best one ever. I mean, those records are 0:58:13.160 --> 0:58:15.160 really what bowl a lot of people to Johnny Cash, 0:58:15.320 --> 0:58:18.760 So you know, you you captured discovery on those records, 0:58:19.520 --> 0:58:22.040 you know, discovery of the audience discovered him. But also 0:58:22.120 --> 0:58:25.240 there's discovery in that sound that you know, the thing 0:58:25.280 --> 0:58:27.600 we're talking about earlier with the White Mansions, with the cinema, 0:58:27.960 --> 0:58:32.520 the simple piano. That record was that record. Those records 0:58:32.600 --> 0:58:35.320 you did with him were just beautiful examples of simplicity 0:58:35.400 --> 0:58:38.760 in the best way because you knew. I'm speaking for 0:58:38.880 --> 0:58:40.200 you here, but I feel like you knew it was 0:58:40.280 --> 0:58:43.920 about his voice and his narrative and everything that around 0:58:43.960 --> 0:58:48.240 the companies that is just supporting that. It's so smart. 0:58:48.880 --> 0:58:52.040 But what'sn't I don't know that it was that thought out. 0:58:52.240 --> 0:58:55.240 It was more of a just part of the experiment 0:58:55.360 --> 0:58:59.040 of figuring out what worked. So it started with demos 0:58:59.080 --> 0:59:01.480 in my living room, and then we went into the 0:59:01.520 --> 0:59:04.960 studio with different players and tried different things, and then 0:59:05.200 --> 0:59:08.320 eventually the demos from the living room just sounded better. 0:59:08.520 --> 0:59:14.200 So being free enough to know that you could record 0:59:14.240 --> 0:59:17.600 it in your living room on the couch and if 0:59:17.640 --> 0:59:21.280 you like it, then that's the record, that's okay. So smart, 0:59:21.640 --> 0:59:24.760 it's so smart. Yeah, that stuff is absolutely brilliant. I 0:59:24.800 --> 0:59:28.560 think it redefined a lot, you know, and maybe at 0:59:28.560 --> 0:59:31.880 the time, and I'm just speculating, like country was radio 0:59:32.200 --> 0:59:35.840 only and I think those records kind of you know, 0:59:36.040 --> 0:59:37.440 I don't know if there was a viral was the 0:59:37.480 --> 0:59:39.720 word at the time, but they went viral and kind 0:59:39.760 --> 0:59:42.080 of beat the system in a lot of ways, and 0:59:42.160 --> 0:59:44.360 I thought, I think that's really cool. One of the 0:59:44.440 --> 0:59:47.720 best things that came from that was other grown up 0:59:47.800 --> 0:59:51.120 artists telling me, I feel like I can like I 0:59:51.200 --> 0:59:53.800 can try to make something good now, you know, like 0:59:54.000 --> 0:59:57.640 like they saw at that point in Johnny's career that 0:59:58.040 --> 1:00:01.439 he could be received well, whereas other people just sort 1:00:01.480 --> 1:00:04.439 of thought it can never happen again, and then they would, 1:00:04.840 --> 1:00:08.000 you know, raise their game. That's an interesting thing that 1:00:08.160 --> 1:00:10.800 people even think that way, you know. I think there's 1:00:10.840 --> 1:00:13.880 such value in making records for adults. You know. I 1:00:13.920 --> 1:00:17.680 think a lot of people just angle for whatever, you know, 1:00:18.280 --> 1:00:23.240 the big immediate gratification hit is. But man, adults are 1:00:23.280 --> 1:00:24.920 out there, and adults grew up at a time and 1:00:25.000 --> 1:00:27.320 you paid for music, and you go to shows, and 1:00:27.480 --> 1:00:30.160 you live a lifestyle around an artist. And I think 1:00:30.640 --> 1:00:34.400 records like that, the cash stuff you did, they're adult records, 1:00:34.440 --> 1:00:36.280 even though kids found them and discover them, they're just 1:00:36.640 --> 1:00:38.840 it's adult music. I think there's so much value to that, 1:00:38.960 --> 1:00:41.560 you know, And I hate to hate to think anybody 1:00:41.560 --> 1:00:43.720 who is a hero would think that way about their 1:00:43.760 --> 1:00:47.200 careers because you know, God, I would love to hear 1:00:47.920 --> 1:00:51.280 you know, one of my favorite bands getting back together. 1:00:51.320 --> 1:00:53.520 I'd love to hear the Zombies make a new record. Incredible. 1:00:53.640 --> 1:00:55.640 I'd be the first in line to buy it, you 1:00:55.680 --> 1:00:58.760 know what I mean? Absolutely, you know, and that guy 1:00:59.240 --> 1:01:03.760 can still saying unbelievably. Well, you know. Yeah, So I 1:01:03.800 --> 1:01:06.560 think there's probably a list of people that I would 1:01:06.600 --> 1:01:08.800 love to hear make new records. You know, reach out. 1:01:09.640 --> 1:01:13.840 I'm scared, man, Rod Argent, come on, Yeah, what a 1:01:13.880 --> 1:01:17.480 hell of a player, right, yeah, yeah, I'm I'm scared. 1:01:17.680 --> 1:01:20.400 I would never reach out to anybody, but but definitely 1:01:20.440 --> 1:01:22.360 I might have his email. If I can find his email, 1:01:22.360 --> 1:01:24.240 I'm sending it to you, and you're going to reach out, Okay, 1:01:24.320 --> 1:01:26.400 I'll tell I'll tell him. I'll put in the preference, 1:01:26.720 --> 1:01:29.640 Rick Rubbin said, and then maybe go answer my email back. 1:01:30.000 --> 1:01:31.880 You can blame me all you want. I want to 1:01:31.920 --> 1:01:34.080 hear the record that you make with Zone, Well, i'll 1:01:34.120 --> 1:01:36.800 call you man, you produce it with me. I would 1:01:36.840 --> 1:01:38.280 love to do a record with you one day. That's 1:01:38.320 --> 1:01:40.520 on my list of things to do. You know. I'm 1:01:40.560 --> 1:01:42.240 sure we will find a way to make that happen. 1:01:42.520 --> 1:01:46.320 All right, man, it'd be great, cool man. All right, well, 1:01:46.480 --> 1:01:50.080 thanks for everything. A pleasure speaking to you always. Man. 1:01:50.200 --> 1:01:51.800 Hopefully I'll see you one day in the in the 1:01:51.880 --> 1:01:56.920 in the future, when the world gets normal. Thanks to 1:01:57.000 --> 1:02:00.400 Dave Cobb for running through his career and inspiration for Rick. 1:02:01.000 --> 1:02:03.080 You can hear all of our favorite Dave Cobb produced 1:02:03.120 --> 1:02:06.040 tracks on a playlist at broken record podcast dot com, 1:02:06.760 --> 1:02:09.160 and be sure to subscribe to our YouTube channel at 1:02:09.280 --> 1:02:13.240 YouTube dot com slash broken record Podcast. There you can 1:02:13.280 --> 1:02:17.160 find extended cuts of our new and old episodes. Broken 1:02:17.240 --> 1:02:21.640 Record is produced with helpful Leah Rose, Jason Gambrel, Martin Gonzalez, 1:02:22.160 --> 1:02:26.560 Eric Sandler and his executive produced by Miolabel. Broken Record 1:02:26.640 --> 1:02:29.320 is a production of Pushkin Industries and if you like us, 1:02:29.560 --> 1:02:31.720 please remember to share, rate, and review our show on 1:02:31.840 --> 1:02:35.080 your podcast app. Our theme music is by Kenny Beats. 1:02:35.320 --> 1:02:36.880 I'm justin Richmond Bass