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Speaker 1: Pushkin. Just a quick note here. You can listen to

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Speaker 1: all of the music mentioned in this episode on our playlist,

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Speaker 1: which you can find a link to in the show

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Speaker 1: notes for licensing reasons, each time a song is referenced

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Speaker 1: in this episode, you'll hear this sound effect all right.

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Speaker 1: Enjoy the episode. Over the past fifteen years, Nashville superproducer

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Speaker 1: Dave Cobb has managed to inject some much needed soul

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Speaker 1: into country music. Dave Cobb has earned six Grammys for

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Speaker 1: standout work with artists like Jason Isabel, Brandy Carlyle, and

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Speaker 1: Chris Stapleton, whose song Tennessee Whiskey We're listening to now

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Speaker 1: and as You'll Hear Today, Dave Pull's inspiration from sources

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Speaker 1: not normally associated with country music. Dave worshiped Ozzy Osborne

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Speaker 1: as a kid despite growing up in an avout Pentecostal family,

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Speaker 1: and in the early nineties he cut his teeth as

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Speaker 1: a session guitarist in Atlanta, working with hip hop and

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Speaker 1: R and B producers Jermaine dupri and Dallas Austin. Rick

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Speaker 1: Rubin and Dave Cobb connected over zoom recently to talk

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Speaker 1: about Dave's unconventional path to becoming a country music producer.

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Speaker 1: They also talk about the power of being an outsider

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Speaker 1: and the value of goofing around in the studio. This

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Speaker 1: is broken record liner notes for the Digital Age. I'm

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Speaker 1: justin Richmond. Here's Rick Rubin and Dave Cobb. So how's

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Speaker 1: everything been going. How are you feeling. I'm good. I'm

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Speaker 1: just surviving the apocalypse. You know, it's it's a weird time.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure it's weird for you guys as well. You know,

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Speaker 1: I just it sometimes feel like, you know, we have

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Speaker 1: a job. We go in the studio, we don't see

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Speaker 1: the outside world. That feels kind of norm until you

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Speaker 1: actually leave, and then then I realize, you know, we're

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Speaker 1: on the other side or something. Have you been able

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Speaker 1: to work straight through you know, I took there was

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Speaker 1: a lockdown here, so I didn't work during that time,

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Speaker 1: but you know, I went back shortly afterwards, and it's

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Speaker 1: you know, it's always in the back of your mind, right,

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Speaker 1: everything about it. But you know, I think I'm always

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Speaker 1: sensitive to I think maybe it's our job to read

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Speaker 1: the room and read everything around you, and you can

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Speaker 1: just see people come in a little bit disoriented. You know,

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Speaker 1: we have to kind of shake it off. You know.

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Speaker 1: Tequila usually helps with that though. Yeah. I feel like

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Speaker 1: as soon as the music starts playing it it changes everything.

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Speaker 1: Like whatever whatever else is going on in the world

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Speaker 1: is diminished in that moment when the groove is good.

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Speaker 1: You know, absolutely absolutely, man, You're you're right about that.

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Speaker 1: What's going on out there? Everything's cool, usual, usual stuff,

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Speaker 1: just you know, trying to make good stuff. Well, you

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Speaker 1: always seem to pull that off. Dry my best you got.

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Speaker 1: You got the best career of all time. I just

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Speaker 1: want to say doing being a producer. You you have

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Speaker 1: the best career of all time. Tell me why you

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Speaker 1: Why do you say that? Because you get to do

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Speaker 1: run DMC, you get to do country, and you get

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Speaker 1: to do Slayer. It's like, come on, and you know

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Speaker 1: who doesn't want that career? You know, it's just the

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Speaker 1: music I like. You know, it's just the music I like. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but you get to do the music you like? Yeah. Absolutely, No,

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Speaker 1: I'm very I'm very fortunate. Absolutely So tell me how

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Speaker 1: did you end up in this, uh, in this funny

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Speaker 1: position that you're in. Um, you know, I never I

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Speaker 1: never wanted to be a producer. It wasn't something I

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Speaker 1: woke up and said, you know, I'm going to do

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Speaker 1: this when I grow old. You know, I wanted to

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Speaker 1: be in a band and and and have a career

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Speaker 1: being a guitar player in the band, and and you know,

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Speaker 1: of course, we find that we signed a typical bad

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Speaker 1: record deal and kind of got stuck. And if I

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Speaker 1: did anything, it would go to the label. If I

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Speaker 1: didn't do anything, it would go to label. So I

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Speaker 1: started producing friends of Minds bands and then they got

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Speaker 1: record deals, and next thing you know, I'm living in Nashville.

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Speaker 1: So you know, it's but you know, through that whole world,

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Speaker 1: I went through being a session player for a long

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Speaker 1: time as well, and learning from people like Jermaine dupri

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Speaker 1: and Dallas Austin and and uh and just kind of

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Speaker 1: figuring it out, figuring like, you know what, if I'm

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Speaker 1: a producer, I get to go home. I sleep in

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Speaker 1: my own bed. That was really the big cell for me,

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Speaker 1: you know, because I never liked touring. I never liked travel.

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Speaker 1: So it's interesting that the people you came up under

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Speaker 1: were Jermaine and Dallas. Considering what you're doing now, it's

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Speaker 1: just it's again, it's another world. Well, I'm I'm from

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Speaker 1: I'm from Georgia, Savannah, Georgia. But I lived in Atlanta

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Speaker 1: when in my formidable year is kind of coming up

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Speaker 1: and and those guys were just owning the town, you know.

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Speaker 1: And this guy, Darren Prindle bought me into play guitar

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Speaker 1: on the session for Dallas and that's how kind of

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Speaker 1: how it started. And I was fascinated with that world. Man.

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Speaker 1: I loved I loved the era of R and B.

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Speaker 1: You know, in Atlanta, it was it was on fire

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Speaker 1: in the early nineties. So it was cool to kind

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Speaker 1: of see some of that stuff firsthand and the talent

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Speaker 1: that was in the room, you know. But I always

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Speaker 1: my passion was always to make rock and roll records.

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Speaker 1: So I moved up to Los Angeles thinking that was

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Speaker 1: the kingdom of rock and roll. And I go out

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Speaker 1: to LA and I wind up producing dis Guys Shooter

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Speaker 1: Jennings and having kind of a you know, a country

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Speaker 1: single on the radio and it kind of started going

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Speaker 1: and then the country then kind of fell on my lap.

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Speaker 1: I mean, growing up in Georgia, I didn't I didn't

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Speaker 1: really love country. It wasn't my thing at all. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it wasn't really really even my parents saying my parents were,

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Speaker 1: you know, I had My grandmother was Pentecostal minister, so

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Speaker 1: we heard a lot of church music. But aside from

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Speaker 1: that and a lot of secular stuff escape except for

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Speaker 1: the super mainstream country in the late seventies and early eighties,

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Speaker 1: and man, I wanted nothing to do with it, you know,

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Speaker 1: I wanted to listen to a CDC and Van Halen

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Speaker 1: and led Zeppelin and Beatles, and eventually, through meeting Shooter Jennings,

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Speaker 1: he'd introduced me to the good country, which I call

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Speaker 1: a good country. Then the obviously Whale and Jennings and

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Speaker 1: Jerry Reid and George Jones and all the stuff I

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Speaker 1: really loved now, so I fell in love it. Once

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Speaker 1: I found the rock and rolling country, I think I

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Speaker 1: got it. You know, when I heard Whale in his band,

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Speaker 1: his band were playing rock and roll for all tensive purposes.

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Speaker 1: There was a phaser on the guitar, there was a

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Speaker 1: you know, almost like a driving country funk groove to

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Speaker 1: the drums. I got it all of a sudden. It

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Speaker 1: made sense. There were rough edges, I guess I was

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Speaker 1: always looking for music that had rough edges. Rough edges

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Speaker 1: always attracted me, whether it was you know, hip hop,

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Speaker 1: R and B, soul, country, bluegrass, whatever it was. I

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Speaker 1: want rough edges, you know, I like the mistakes. You know,

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Speaker 1: tell me a little bit about what you saw when

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Speaker 1: you're working with Dallas, your studio guitar player. Technologically, what

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Speaker 1: was going on there and how does that relate to

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Speaker 1: how you make music today. Well, I didn't get a

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Speaker 1: ton of time with them, you know, I was mainly

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Speaker 1: in the studio cutting tracks. There was a guy named

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Speaker 1: t Smith that was signed to his label, Rawdy Records,

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Speaker 1: and I got to kind of work with them and

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Speaker 1: develop the demos. But I remember taking those demos and

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Speaker 1: they wound up using one of the tracks and I

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Speaker 1: just recorded it with one mic I don't know, a cassette,

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Speaker 1: cassette four track or something. And I remember going to

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Speaker 1: the studio with his engineers and next thing you know,

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Speaker 1: they were using gates the trigger you know, MPCs to

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Speaker 1: put samples in it and kind of build a track,

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Speaker 1: and I remember it's being so cool they're able to

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Speaker 1: do this. I mean, this is something that took god

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Speaker 1: knows all day, you know, to do. And just watch

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Speaker 1: how technology has changed so much is amazing. But it

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Speaker 1: was cool to watch the way those guys thought, I mean,

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Speaker 1: they were doing everything we're doing right now. I just

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Speaker 1: took a little bit longer, you know. And I remember

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Speaker 1: going in and watching them do vocals with artists. I

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Speaker 1: remember walking into the Deborah Cox session and Deborah Cox

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Speaker 1: had filled up an entire twenty four track with backgrounds,

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Speaker 1: and that was the sound of those big records he

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Speaker 1: was doing at that time, had track after the track

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Speaker 1: and layer after layer, and that's with no technology, that's

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Speaker 1: just singing and just building it. It was It was cool.

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Speaker 1: It was was watching an absolute, you know, masterpiece come

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Speaker 1: come to life in front of you and seeing how

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Speaker 1: all that came together. This is when sampling became a

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Speaker 1: no no all of a sudden. Everyone was getting sued

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Speaker 1: for samples. So me and a couple other kids would

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Speaker 1: go in and jam and they'd say, you know, can

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Speaker 1: you play something like Curtis Mayfield? So then I go

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Speaker 1: down a Curtis Mayfield deep dive, or so can you

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Speaker 1: can you play something kind of like the Jbs or

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Speaker 1: the Meters? And that was an education in music to

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Speaker 1: learn those records and try to figure out, I mean,

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Speaker 1: no one can play like any of those bands or

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Speaker 1: any of those guys but it was cool. We just

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Speaker 1: jam all day and they had a dat going the

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Speaker 1: entire time, and then they would take the DAT and

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Speaker 1: then they may take one bar of it and turn

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Speaker 1: it into a new sample. And it was it was cool.

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Speaker 1: But it wasn't really the record making process. It got me.

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Speaker 1: It was the education of incredible bands and artists I

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Speaker 1: heard through people that knew a lot more about in

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Speaker 1: me the music, you know, and and learning the studying

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Speaker 1: Curtis Mayfield's guitar playing. I mean, it's something I sneak

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Speaker 1: in country all the time, you know, whether I'm doing

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Speaker 1: a rock record or a country record, it's the soul.

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Speaker 1: I'm always trying to get the soul that's on the

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Speaker 1: soul record because to me, that that's that's the magic.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's that that's that swing that you're kind

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Speaker 1: of missing the one a little bit and you're coming

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Speaker 1: right behind it, you know, with a bass or whatever

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Speaker 1: it is. It's that pocket beautiful. So you were saying

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Speaker 1: that where you grew up, there was not there was

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Speaker 1: not music in your house other than church music. Is

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Speaker 1: this correct? When you were growing up pretty much? You know,

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Speaker 1: my parents weren't. I mean, they're amazing and my mom

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Speaker 1: absolutely supported me playing music. She sneak off and buy

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Speaker 1: me a drum kid or take me to a bass

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Speaker 1: lesson or whatever. So she was there. She was supportive.

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Speaker 1: But the music I mainly heard was, you know, at church,

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Speaker 1: because I felt like I couldn't get out of church.

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Speaker 1: I had to go to church, you know, since I'm

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Speaker 1: the grandson of the of the preacher, I had to

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Speaker 1: be there Monday, Wednesday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday morning, Sunday night, vacation,

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Speaker 1: Bible study, Christian school. It's like you couldn't get away,

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Speaker 1: you know, couldn't get away from it. So what I

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Speaker 1: did like about that is I love him Tho still

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Speaker 1: to this day, I think, I think they're just beautiful,

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Speaker 1: the cadence of it all. And obviously that's that's a

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Speaker 1: huge building block of country music, so I understand that.

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Speaker 1: But we had a piano, we had a pedal steel

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Speaker 1: in the church, and an acoustic guitar. No drums, but uh,

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Speaker 1: just the music was definitely steeped empty. But I would

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Speaker 1: I would go out and find Black Sabbath and Ozzie.

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Speaker 1: I think I got maybe Ozzy first. Maybe it was

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Speaker 1: you know, a blizzard of oz was the first record

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Speaker 1: to discovered by Ozzy and had to hide the record,

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Speaker 1: had to hide it, and I had had an azzi

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Speaker 1: poster and I had to hide it in the addict.

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Speaker 1: You know, I would for sure we go into hell

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Speaker 1: if they were found. Was that Your first memory of

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Speaker 1: your own music was Ozzie? No, The first memory I

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Speaker 1: ever had with music, I maybe was really young. My

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Speaker 1: aunt she uh, she had gone through a divorce and

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Speaker 1: she came to live with us for a little while,

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Speaker 1: and she bought some of her records, and it was

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Speaker 1: during disco era, you know, this is late seventies, and

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Speaker 1: I remember she had really great records. But the records

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Speaker 1: I really remember was the forty five for New Kid

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Speaker 1: in Town by the Eagles, which is my first favorite song.

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Speaker 1: I didn't know there was the Beatles at that young age,

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Speaker 1: but those harmonies I was so attracted to. It's such

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Speaker 1: a brilliant, brilliant arrangement on that song. So I remember

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Speaker 1: that that record being probably the first record that that

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Speaker 1: I go WHOA, what is this? You know, and just

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Speaker 1: obsessed with it until somebody stepped on it and broke it.

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Speaker 1: But that you know that and disco duck this might

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Speaker 1: have been the first formidable records of my life. You know,

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Speaker 1: Disco Duck was a good one. Yeah, he's in top

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Speaker 1: ten for me of all time. Bicks of that, you know,

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Speaker 1: and then and then it graduated to Ozzie and would

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Speaker 1: you say mostly hard rock heavy metal was the was

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Speaker 1: the The Beatles were the thing my dad did like

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Speaker 1: my dad did, like the Beach Boys. That was one

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Speaker 1: of the ones. He loved Buddy Holly and he loved Elvis.

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Speaker 1: So I did hear a little bit of that on

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Speaker 1: Greatest Hits cassettes, you know, Yeah, but uh yeah, the

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Speaker 1: Beatles were kind of my thing because I remember listening

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Speaker 1: to The Day in the Life by the Beatles and thinking, like,

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Speaker 1: how does humans make that music? It just doesn't seem

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Speaker 1: I don't know how what what kind of stars have

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Speaker 1: to align for that to happen? You know, that song,

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Speaker 1: everything about it is perfect. I mean, Ringo is my

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Speaker 1: favorite drummer of all time. Every drum fell a single

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Speaker 1: bowl on that song. The bassline is defying what any

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Speaker 1: other bass player was doing at the time. You know,

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Speaker 1: you have this crescendo of strings that it goes into

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Speaker 1: explosion into a whole different tempo and different Feel and

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Speaker 1: Alarm Clock and Psychedelic Oz at the end. I just

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Speaker 1: I was captivated by it. It doesn't get better, it

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Speaker 1: doesn't get better, and it doesn't get old. Ozzie too, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Ozzie too hearing you know, like Suicide Solution and and

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Speaker 1: all those songs. Again, I thought I was doing something

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Speaker 1: really dangerous, and I think that's what I liked about it,

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Speaker 1: you know. And but you know, Ozzie was you were

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Speaker 1: You got a chance to work with Ozzie, which is

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Speaker 1: I'm so jealous of that. But Ozzie, even though it

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Speaker 1: was heavy, it was catchy and they're beautiful pop songs

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Speaker 1: and that stuff you know here and uh, mister Crawley,

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's just a beautiful classical arrangement to that song,

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Speaker 1: you know, the keyboard at the beginning, you know, and

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Speaker 1: and Randy Rhodes guitar soul. You could sing every riff

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Speaker 1: of it, and everything Ozzy's saying was just ketchy, ketchy,

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Speaker 1: ketchy ketchy. When he does melodies, he always seems to descend.

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Speaker 1: People look to me and say, he goes down and

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Speaker 1: everybody else goes up. He just he did pop in

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Speaker 1: a different different way, you know. He meant so much

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Speaker 1: to me as a kid. I think that first Black

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Speaker 1: Sabbath record is probably the heaviest record of all time,

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Speaker 1: you know. I know there's my Sugar and bands that

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Speaker 1: are really heavy and powerful and awesome, but that record

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Speaker 1: is so terrifying. You know, the big church bell and

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Speaker 1: everything just terrifying. It scared me. The song Black sabbathysists

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Speaker 1: heave Us. It cuts period and I remember, you know again,

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Speaker 1: I grew up so heavy in church and they used

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Speaker 1: to actually have Sunday school meetings about you know, Ozzy

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Speaker 1: was worshiping the devil, and you obviously all the backmasking stuff,

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Speaker 1: and kids were knights in Satan's service. You know, we

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Speaker 1: heard all that stuff. So it made it extra scary,

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Speaker 1: you know. I think I think that's while I was

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Speaker 1: so attracted to it. It just seemed like, you know,

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Speaker 1: oh man, this is dangerous. You know. It's funny to

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Speaker 1: see the footage of him in the Azzie documentary before

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Speaker 1: he goes out on stage where he gets on his

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Speaker 1: knees and he prays and he crosses himself. It's so beautiful. Absolutely,

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Speaker 1: but we didn't know that. We thought he was you know,

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Speaker 1: he legitimately eight bats daily, you know, but that must

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Speaker 1: have been cool. But also you've got Tonya Almy in

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Speaker 1: the band, and he's a butler and Bill Ward, I mean,

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Speaker 1: he's absolute ledges. But I think Tony Almy might be

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Speaker 1: the riff master of all time too. I think so.

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Speaker 1: I think he is. I mean, Jimmy Page is number

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Speaker 1: one for me. Let's Zeppelin. Jimmy Page for sure number

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Speaker 1: one guitar player. But man, Tonya Almy just as riffs terrifying.

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Speaker 1: It's amazing when those guys, as soon as the Black

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Speaker 1: Sabbath guys plug in and play, it can't sound like

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Speaker 1: anything other than Black Sabbath, you know, it's so in great.

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Speaker 1: It's like we think of you know, so many bands

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Speaker 1: try to play like Black Sabbath, but that's just how

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Speaker 1: they play. And whenever anyone plays like them, it doesn't

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Speaker 1: sound really anything like it when they do it. It

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Speaker 1: just it's it's just the natural way that it comes out.

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Speaker 1: It's unbelievable, thrilling. I think there's something to Bill Ward's playing.

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Speaker 1: It's got this hurry up and slow down boh. It's

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Speaker 1: just so catches you and it slows up and speeds down,

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Speaker 1: and it's so heavy, so have every fill he had.

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Speaker 1: It's just it's beautiful, beautiful, so beautiful that whole band.

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Speaker 1: Man such a fan. And then after Ozzie, what was

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Speaker 1: your next? I think I got into band. It was

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Speaker 1: an exciting time, you know, coming into late eighties early nineties,

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Speaker 1: All of a sudden there were bands like Fishbone, which

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Speaker 1: I adored Fishbone. I thought they were great. I love

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Speaker 1: that band. I thought they were mixing up everything, and

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Speaker 1: I think music was exciting for a while, where the

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Speaker 1: beginnings of Lollapaloosa where you had Alan Jennings and nine

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Speaker 1: Ish Nails and Fishbone, all the radio starting to be

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Speaker 1: the beginning of alternative music, and the radio playing this

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Speaker 1: music that seemed to be going like this and just

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Speaker 1: spreading out and music with evolving. I mean, you had

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Speaker 1: a lot to do with it with Red Out of

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Speaker 1: Chili Peppers. They were one of those bands. It's like

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Speaker 1: that they didn't really sound like anybody else. They sounded

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Speaker 1: like all the cool elements of lots of music that

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Speaker 1: you liked. And then for some reason, maybe that format

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Speaker 1: just changed one day and became like Okay, here's the rules,

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Speaker 1: and you got to play by these to have a hit.

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Speaker 1: But at that point, it feels like you could have

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Speaker 1: a hit by not playing by the rules. So anything

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Speaker 1: that didn't play by the rules I got into, And

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Speaker 1: particularly Trent Resner. I was really into nine Ish Nails.

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Speaker 1: I really thought it was just again super dangerous. You know,

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Speaker 1: even though there were clicks in programming, he didn't feel

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Speaker 1: like that. It felt soulful. Absolutely. Maybe back up before that,

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Speaker 1: Van Halen was a big one for me too growing up.

336
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Speaker 1: I just you know, Eddie's a guitar player who I

337
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Speaker 1: think every kid who started playing guitar in the eighties

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Speaker 1: wanted to learn how to play a look like them,

339
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Speaker 1: but nobody could. I And I sat and I studied

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00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:04,800
Speaker 1: that stuff like textbooks and learned every riff. And I've

341
00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:08,200
Speaker 1: never been able to use tapping in a song. He

342
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Speaker 1: was able to do it, and it was awesome and

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Speaker 1: catchy and and uh, it's so much melody and what

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Speaker 1: that guy did. And again, super soulful player. So I

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Speaker 1: was really attracted to that too. And Guns of Roses

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Speaker 1: I adored, you know, at the typical Southern story of

347
00:17:24,840 --> 00:17:27,320
Speaker 1: you know, cousin m worked at a tape store and

348
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Speaker 1: he had appetite for destruction and he picked up. You know,

349
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Speaker 1: two girls are older than us. I was thirteen and

350
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Speaker 1: we had wine coolers and a dirt road and listened

351
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Speaker 1: to Appetite for Destruction. I don't know what's more rock

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Speaker 1: and roll than that. And obviously, you know, I don't

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Speaker 1: think I even like looked where the girl was. I

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Speaker 1: was too scared. But just the list hearing that, I

355
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Speaker 1: think I was more occupied with the cassette of guns

356
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Speaker 1: of roses than I was you know anything at the time.

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Speaker 1: You know, when did you start playing guitar? Thirteen? Drums

358
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Speaker 1: are my first instrument. I started really young on that,

359
00:17:56,119 --> 00:17:58,040
Speaker 1: and then bass and then guitar. I figured I couldn't

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Speaker 1: really write a song just playing drums with the instruments

361
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Speaker 1: in your house. My granddaddy Cob my dad's dad, he

362
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Speaker 1: always played, and my grandmother, the preacher. She was a

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Speaker 1: beautiful singer. She had written songs, had gotten published. You know,

364
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Speaker 1: she actually got a publishing deal from Disney in the

365
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Speaker 1: forties in the middle of the war and had to

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Speaker 1: turn it down. So she had had a bunch of

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Speaker 1: Christian songs published. So there was it was around me.

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Speaker 1: She gave me a guitar young and my other granddaddy

369
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Speaker 1: gave me a guitar, and my parents gave me a

370
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Speaker 1: couple of lessons, and so there was always around. But

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Speaker 1: you know, I don't remember a time not playing music.

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Speaker 1: You know, I wish I was at this age. I

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Speaker 1: wish I was good at something else. Not that I'm

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Speaker 1: good at music, but I wish I had a hobby.

375
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Speaker 1: I mean, you might need to tell me some hobbies

376
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Speaker 1: to take up. I've tried. I've tried motorcycles and I

377
00:18:42,359 --> 00:18:46,600
Speaker 1: like to look at him. You know, I don't do sports.

378
00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:49,359
Speaker 1: I don't watch sports. You know, I need a hobby.

379
00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:51,080
Speaker 1: So if you got a hobby, Rick, let me know.

380
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Speaker 1: Would you like to read? No? Hell no, I'm dyslexic.

381
00:18:57,160 --> 00:18:59,119
Speaker 1: So yeah, I'm looking at looking at reading. It's just

382
00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:01,320
Speaker 1: like it's as will put me in a jail sale

383
00:19:01,359 --> 00:19:04,760
Speaker 1: it's audio books. Audiobooks might be your I think I

384
00:19:04,840 --> 00:19:07,240
Speaker 1: think it's the OCD man. I need to find something

385
00:19:07,359 --> 00:19:10,080
Speaker 1: that that totally takes me away for a second. But

386
00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:13,159
Speaker 1: pretty much, if I have a day off, I'm trying to,

387
00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:17,399
Speaker 1: you know, chase something music related every day, you know,

388
00:19:17,800 --> 00:19:20,639
Speaker 1: but I do need something. Maybe it's dominoes. I don't know.

389
00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:24,080
Speaker 1: So guitar starts at thirteen, the first things you're playing

390
00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:27,200
Speaker 1: are along with like Ozzie Records, Van Halen Records. Is

391
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Speaker 1: that the first Yeah, definitely, which is terrifying because no

392
00:19:30,119 --> 00:19:32,840
Speaker 1: one should start with those records. You know. I think

393
00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:34,640
Speaker 1: when I say I was playing along, it was probably

394
00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:39,520
Speaker 1: really shittily, you know, But you know, I think learning

395
00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:43,280
Speaker 1: you know, Crazy Train or something early on that those

396
00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:44,920
Speaker 1: were the ones to stick with you just bawn on.

397
00:19:45,080 --> 00:19:46,800
Speaker 1: I don't know, you can kind of handle that too.

398
00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:48,640
Speaker 1: It's two strings for the most part. For that when

399
00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:50,560
Speaker 1: it gets the other part, forget about it. But I

400
00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:53,320
Speaker 1: think I learned lots of parts of songs. I don't

401
00:19:53,359 --> 00:19:56,160
Speaker 1: think I was one to ever learn every single note

402
00:19:56,200 --> 00:19:58,240
Speaker 1: of it, So I know, I know, like lots of

403
00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:02,119
Speaker 1: songs starts and that's where it ends. And I think

404
00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:04,760
Speaker 1: that's probably probably it made me get into writing and

405
00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:07,159
Speaker 1: stuff like that more because I can you know, I

406
00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:09,000
Speaker 1: didn't have the patients to even learn the whole song.

407
00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:12,400
Speaker 1: So again, but you know, all that stuff filtered in ACDC.

408
00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:16,000
Speaker 1: I forgot a CDC massive one for me, massive massive

409
00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:18,840
Speaker 1: ACDC fan. I had a guitar teacher that he had

410
00:20:18,840 --> 00:20:21,800
Speaker 1: a black SG and he would only teach me ACDC,

411
00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:24,480
Speaker 1: so I go pick up, you know, sneaking by dirty

412
00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:26,520
Speaker 1: d under cheap and walking there, and that's how you

413
00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:28,280
Speaker 1: would teach me. So we skip Mary had a little

414
00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:32,040
Speaker 1: lad went straight to highway to hell. You know, ACDC huge,

415
00:20:32,119 --> 00:20:35,720
Speaker 1: Angus and Malcolm huge to me huge, And I still

416
00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:40,320
Speaker 1: play a g chord like the young brothers. They don't play. Yeah,

417
00:20:40,320 --> 00:20:43,400
Speaker 1: they skip a couple of strings, and I still play

418
00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:45,600
Speaker 1: like them, you know in that sense? Do you know

419
00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:49,040
Speaker 1: that Malcolm would use heavy strings and Angus would use

420
00:20:49,119 --> 00:20:52,080
Speaker 1: light strings, and they would pick their chords so that

421
00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:53,680
Speaker 1: between the two of them it would be like the

422
00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:57,920
Speaker 1: two hands on a piano. Really, I did not know

423
00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:00,600
Speaker 1: that that is so cool. Some he told me, and

424
00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:03,479
Speaker 1: maybe you could validate this, that it might have been

425
00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:06,320
Speaker 1: their brother George. It would sneak a piano under the

426
00:21:06,359 --> 00:21:09,320
Speaker 1: guitar sometimes, Is that true. I know that they would

427
00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:14,400
Speaker 1: try out their songs on piano as compositions to see

428
00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:17,440
Speaker 1: if the song stood up. Oh wow, yeah, I don't

429
00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:20,240
Speaker 1: know if it was ever on the records. I think

430
00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:22,800
Speaker 1: somebody should make a piano version of AC's the greatest hit,

431
00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:25,919
Speaker 1: be Great. That might be That might be your next project,

432
00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:27,800
Speaker 1: I know, too bad. I can't play piano, but yeah,

433
00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:30,320
Speaker 1: Bedtime with a CDC. You know, that's a that's a

434
00:21:30,359 --> 00:21:32,359
Speaker 1: good one, you know. I don't know how well that

435
00:21:32,359 --> 00:21:35,119
Speaker 1: would put you Hell's Bells the Singers kid to sleep,

436
00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:37,360
Speaker 1: but it would be fun to listen to. Maybe Chris

437
00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:40,680
Speaker 1: Stapleton singing Hell's Bells would be really good. I could imagine,

438
00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:42,200
Speaker 1: you know what, he could sing the shit out of

439
00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:44,520
Speaker 1: a I bet he's a hell of a rock and

440
00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:46,399
Speaker 1: roll singer. He can sing the phone book. You know.

441
00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:50,040
Speaker 1: We'll be right back with Dave Cobb after a short break.

442
00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:57,800
Speaker 1: We're back with Rick Rubin and Dave Cobb. So you

443
00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:00,440
Speaker 1: got to work with the Colds, right. That was the

444
00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:04,000
Speaker 1: first first rock album I ever produced, was the Cult

445
00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:07,840
Speaker 1: Electric And tell me about walking into a situation because

446
00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:11,119
Speaker 1: I know you'd done rap early on walking to that

447
00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:14,920
Speaker 1: band at that time, because I like, I loved that band.

448
00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:16,840
Speaker 1: I was a big fan of the Colt But that

449
00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:18,960
Speaker 1: record did not sound like what the band sounded like

450
00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:21,200
Speaker 1: prior to you making that record. How do you go

451
00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:25,040
Speaker 1: in from producing BC boys walking in and going like, Okay,

452
00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:27,840
Speaker 1: you guys are gonna change everything. How does that happen?

453
00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:33,000
Speaker 1: It happened in stages and it wasn't well, I'll tell you,

454
00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:35,240
Speaker 1: I'll tell you the whole story. They had liked the

455
00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:37,520
Speaker 1: hip hop records I was making, and they reached out

456
00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:39,199
Speaker 1: and as if I would do a remix. They had

457
00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:42,720
Speaker 1: already finished the album that was going to be electric,

458
00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:45,360
Speaker 1: a completely different album than the one that we made,

459
00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:48,320
Speaker 1: and they came and asked me to remix two songs

460
00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:53,000
Speaker 1: from their new album. And then they loved the remixes

461
00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:58,080
Speaker 1: and said, and it started like, let's remix it, but

462
00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:00,399
Speaker 1: they came, so I had them replace stuff to make

463
00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:02,640
Speaker 1: it more like the way I wanted it, and then

464
00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:06,280
Speaker 1: we made the new version of those and then they said, well,

465
00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:08,240
Speaker 1: maybe this is just what the whole album should be.

466
00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:12,000
Speaker 1: And then we just made that made that album. It

467
00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:15,280
Speaker 1: didn't start with the idea of either making an album.

468
00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:18,600
Speaker 1: It started as a remix project. Wow. But I mean,

469
00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:21,760
Speaker 1: you know, the guitars on that were just to me.

470
00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:25,840
Speaker 1: It was like the first record post seventies or early

471
00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:29,719
Speaker 1: eighties that had that rock guitar. Yeah. Well, I always

472
00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:34,199
Speaker 1: loved I loved rock music, and they thought of themselves

473
00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:38,280
Speaker 1: as a rock band and as a rock fan. I said, well,

474
00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:41,560
Speaker 1: what you guys, do is cool, but it's not this,

475
00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:44,639
Speaker 1: And if you want it to be this, we can

476
00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:49,640
Speaker 1: do this. And they're like, well, yeah, let's do that. Wow. Yeah, man,

477
00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:52,560
Speaker 1: that was such a great record, such an inspiring record,

478
00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:55,000
Speaker 1: you know, coming up because it felt dangerous, you know again,

479
00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:57,119
Speaker 1: music maybe at that time was starting to get a

480
00:23:57,160 --> 00:24:00,840
Speaker 1: little safer, and you made sure it wasn't in the Yeah.

481
00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:03,240
Speaker 1: I was still living at the dorm at NYU, and

482
00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:06,440
Speaker 1: I would walk from the dorm to Electric Lady where

483
00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:10,239
Speaker 1: we recorded that album. It was a good experience. How

484
00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:13,080
Speaker 1: did you wind up in La? Like? What made that happen?

485
00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:16,040
Speaker 1: From from New York? I came out to do a

486
00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:20,880
Speaker 1: soundtrack album for the Lesson Zero movie and I loved

487
00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:23,920
Speaker 1: that movie. Cool. I was living in a hotel for

488
00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:28,600
Speaker 1: nine months and eventually decided to buy a house, not

489
00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:31,560
Speaker 1: thinking I was going to live in LA. But when

490
00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:33,440
Speaker 1: I came to La, I would stay in a house

491
00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:36,080
Speaker 1: instead of living in a hotel, because if you've lived

492
00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:37,760
Speaker 1: in a hotel for any period of time, it's not

493
00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:40,399
Speaker 1: a great it's not a great way to live. So

494
00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:42,480
Speaker 1: got a house thinking this would be the place I

495
00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:44,200
Speaker 1: would come instead of going with the hotel. It was

496
00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:45,840
Speaker 1: right across the street from the hotel, but it was

497
00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:50,160
Speaker 1: a house so it felt more private. And then really

498
00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:54,920
Speaker 1: just never went back. I never officially moved to California

499
00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:58,560
Speaker 1: until after being there for about five years and realizing, well,

500
00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:00,920
Speaker 1: I guess I live here now. Man. That less Less

501
00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:04,480
Speaker 1: a zero soundtrack the Hazy Shaded Winter cover on that, Yeah,

502
00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:07,680
Speaker 1: I produced that. Oh man, Yeah, I love the Bengals,

503
00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:10,720
Speaker 1: Love love the Bengals, and and that's that must have

504
00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:13,880
Speaker 1: been intimidating too, because that's a Simon a Garth Funcle song,

505
00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:17,240
Speaker 1: and like, you know, just all of a sudden, I

506
00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:20,640
Speaker 1: felt like I didn't know the Simon Garfuncle wrote that song.

507
00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:22,440
Speaker 1: When I heard your version of it, I thought that

508
00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:24,160
Speaker 1: they had written that song. And it feels like their

509
00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:27,720
Speaker 1: song must have been a huge hill to climb to

510
00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:31,359
Speaker 1: make that their song. You know, it actually was pretty natural.

511
00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:33,680
Speaker 1: They picked it themselves. I had picked a song that

512
00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:35,280
Speaker 1: I thought would be great for us to do together.

513
00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:39,080
Speaker 1: That was that was a yardbird song. But I imagine

514
00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:41,400
Speaker 1: them doing it in harm with harmonies, and it would

515
00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:43,840
Speaker 1: have been a really cool thing. And then they're like, well,

516
00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:46,080
Speaker 1: why don't we just do Hazy Shaw to Winters? Like, okay, fine,

517
00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:49,520
Speaker 1: and then that ended up being what it was. And also,

518
00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:53,240
Speaker 1: if I'm my memory serves me, h, Aerosmith was on

519
00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:55,760
Speaker 1: that too, right, Yes, And I grew up, you know,

520
00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:58,200
Speaker 1: Aerosmith was one of my favorite bands growing up, So

521
00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:01,680
Speaker 1: that was the that the first time, I guess we'd

522
00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:04,359
Speaker 1: already done Walk this Way, so it was the second

523
00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:06,720
Speaker 1: time I got to work with them at that time.

524
00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:08,920
Speaker 1: Were they getting along when you guys recorded that song?

525
00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:12,359
Speaker 1: Is that good Aerosmith time? Or were they they fighting?

526
00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:17,359
Speaker 1: I think they were always sort of cool, not cool,

527
00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:19,280
Speaker 1: you know, like there was never a time where they

528
00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:22,159
Speaker 1: weren't speaking that I knew, and there was always this

529
00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:27,240
Speaker 1: sort of tension rivalry in the band, but it was

530
00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:29,960
Speaker 1: always okay to be around them. I know. I know

531
00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:32,600
Speaker 1: you've done a lot of country stuff. What was the

532
00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:34,960
Speaker 1: country record that got you? Obviously you worked with Cash,

533
00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:37,200
Speaker 1: but was there a specific country record that kind of

534
00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:41,080
Speaker 1: got you? I mean, growing up, I liked like the

535
00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:43,959
Speaker 1: pop country that you would hear when I was a kid,

536
00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:47,920
Speaker 1: like Glenn Campbell was great. I watched Hehaw, you know,

537
00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:51,960
Speaker 1: so the guys on Heehaw and always liked the you know,

538
00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:55,520
Speaker 1: the picking, you know, like dueling banjo's like that that

539
00:26:55,720 --> 00:27:00,280
Speaker 1: kind of I was like folk music as well, SOALY

540
00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:02,560
Speaker 1: came through those roots. But I would never I would

541
00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:04,880
Speaker 1: never think of myself as a fan of country music

542
00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:08,240
Speaker 1: because so much of the country music at the time

543
00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:12,119
Speaker 1: that I was really involved in looking for music was

544
00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:14,760
Speaker 1: a kind of a plastic sound that that didn't really

545
00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:17,800
Speaker 1: speak to me. I feel like, what's one of the

546
00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:21,679
Speaker 1: great one of your great contributions is you've made country

547
00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:26,800
Speaker 1: music great again, and I really appreciate that. I love

548
00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:29,119
Speaker 1: speaking of Glenn Campbell man which tall i'man that might

549
00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:31,520
Speaker 1: be the perfect song I think not only knows in

550
00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:35,080
Speaker 1: which tall i'man might the best best songs of all time,

551
00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:38,639
Speaker 1: you know, absolutely perfect. And then knowing that he played

552
00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:41,879
Speaker 1: on you know Monkeys albums that I grew up loving.

553
00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:45,600
Speaker 1: You know. Yeah, there's a great picture in my studio

554
00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:47,560
Speaker 1: where the Monkeys came and they did I think they

555
00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:49,679
Speaker 1: did well. I can't remember the song, but they did

556
00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:51,600
Speaker 1: one of the songs with Mike Nesmith in my studio,

557
00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:54,399
Speaker 1: and there's pictures in the wall of all those guys,

558
00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:57,720
Speaker 1: Belton Jarvis, the producer bringing Monkeys in the studio. I

559
00:27:57,760 --> 00:27:59,880
Speaker 1: feel like we don't have fun now like those guys

560
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:02,720
Speaker 1: had fun. I feel like we're we're you know, not

561
00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:05,040
Speaker 1: really live in the dream the way they did. You know,

562
00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:08,800
Speaker 1: you call the eighties, which are probably a blast. I

563
00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:11,680
Speaker 1: don't know. It's always I have a feeling, it's always

564
00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:16,000
Speaker 1: dudes in a room working hard to make something good

565
00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:18,399
Speaker 1: is ultimately what it is, and everything else is just

566
00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:22,680
Speaker 1: a fantasy. Yeah, I don't know, man. I read the

567
00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:25,560
Speaker 1: stories of people with drug habits and yellow Lamborghinis and

568
00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:28,399
Speaker 1: we missed them all, you know. Yeah, I don't know.

569
00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:31,000
Speaker 1: I don't know that even those guys would say those

570
00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:34,159
Speaker 1: were the fun times. The probably don't remember them. You know,

571
00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:36,840
Speaker 1: are there any are they a limmus records that you have,

572
00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:38,840
Speaker 1: Like I like the drum sound on this record. I

573
00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:40,760
Speaker 1: like the guitar sound on this record, and the vocal

574
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:44,040
Speaker 1: sound on this record, anything that jumps out. There was

575
00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:46,280
Speaker 1: a time that I thought that way, and then I've

576
00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:49,800
Speaker 1: learned since I'll tell you. I'll tell you like there

577
00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:52,520
Speaker 1: was a time when I want to learn all the secrets. Okay, Well,

578
00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:56,480
Speaker 1: I really like the Highway to Hell album. I think

579
00:28:56,560 --> 00:29:00,960
Speaker 1: for me maybe the perfect rock album, so so sonically,

580
00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:06,040
Speaker 1: you know, that's good sounding guitars good sounding drums. If

581
00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:08,520
Speaker 1: you try to make other drums sound like those drums,

582
00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:13,640
Speaker 1: not only will they not sound like not sound like

583
00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:16,000
Speaker 1: the Highway to Hell drums, they won't sound like the

584
00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:21,600
Speaker 1: good version of what they actually are. So I've come

585
00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:24,920
Speaker 1: to realize that I'm not trying to get a sound

586
00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:29,360
Speaker 1: that's like that's been anywhere else. It's more using the

587
00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:32,560
Speaker 1: stuff we have here, what's the best that we can

588
00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:36,000
Speaker 1: make this stuff sound? And it really does open up

589
00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:39,440
Speaker 1: the floodgates in terms of, you know, feeling like you

590
00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:44,680
Speaker 1: need special equipment or special mics or special you know,

591
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:46,440
Speaker 1: it has to be a NIVE console, it has to

592
00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:50,120
Speaker 1: be an API console. It's like they do they or

593
00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:51,960
Speaker 1: it has to be done on tape or any of

594
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:55,200
Speaker 1: those things. It's like those things all have a sound,

595
00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:59,760
Speaker 1: but they're not required, and we can make something good

596
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:05,320
Speaker 1: using pretty much anything. And I continually hear things that

597
00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:09,840
Speaker 1: blow my mind that we're made in really suboptimal ways.

598
00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:15,760
Speaker 1: So those are, you know, proof that it can be done.

599
00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:21,680
Speaker 1: So I try not to get too fanatical about either

600
00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:25,360
Speaker 1: equipment or the right way to do anything. I almost

601
00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:27,000
Speaker 1: feel like if there's a right way to do it,

602
00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:30,760
Speaker 1: chances are doing it a different way might be more interesting. Yeah,

603
00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:34,640
Speaker 1: So always looking for the opportunity to find a new

604
00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:38,640
Speaker 1: way to make something interesting. You know, I've never been

605
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:40,960
Speaker 1: able to nail anything I've ever tried to chase. I

606
00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:42,800
Speaker 1: think you're I think you're right about that. I've never

607
00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:44,600
Speaker 1: been able to nail any of the great sounds and

608
00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:47,640
Speaker 1: records I've tried to chase, not once. Yeah, I think

609
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:50,840
Speaker 1: it's a losing battle. I think's it ends up being

610
00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:54,280
Speaker 1: just a waste of time. When I first started producing

611
00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:58,880
Speaker 1: records was a really unfortunate time of music. Around nineteen

612
00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:01,880
Speaker 1: ninetynine is when I start taking it seriously. And I

613
00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:04,920
Speaker 1: remember at that particular time, I mean, you probably were

614
00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:07,640
Speaker 1: the only person to not doing that and have a success.

615
00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:10,560
Speaker 1: But you had to have a click, and then you

616
00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:13,560
Speaker 1: had to have you know, the drums miked a certain way,

617
00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:17,040
Speaker 1: and you had to have a little loop in the background.

618
00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:19,840
Speaker 1: You had to everything had to be perfect. You had

619
00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:21,920
Speaker 1: to do everything in an assembly line fashion. You had

620
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:23,720
Speaker 1: to do the drums and the bass and the guitar

621
00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:26,680
Speaker 1: and finally get to it later. And I remember starting

622
00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:30,160
Speaker 1: off that way and I just I just sucked. I sucked,

623
00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:33,000
Speaker 1: and the record sound like shit, and I just didn't

624
00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:34,720
Speaker 1: know how to do it. I couldn't figure it out.

625
00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:36,920
Speaker 1: And I think when I said, you know what, I'll

626
00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:40,680
Speaker 1: just starve is when I started having success making records

627
00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:43,520
Speaker 1: with everybody playing together. I only did it because I

628
00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:45,560
Speaker 1: thought it was, you know, this will be a demo

629
00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:48,920
Speaker 1: or whatever, and maybe maybe maybe someone will hear it

630
00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:50,720
Speaker 1: and actually make the record. But yeah, I could. I

631
00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:53,360
Speaker 1: sucked at the rules. I just and I tried to

632
00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:56,320
Speaker 1: play them. It's not like I was defiant or playing

633
00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:57,760
Speaker 1: or renegade. I just didn't know how to do it.

634
00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:01,640
Speaker 1: And I don't understand technology same And I think, also,

635
00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:04,640
Speaker 1: what you what you just said, like so often the

636
00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:07,440
Speaker 1: demos of songs are better than the records, and it

637
00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:14,080
Speaker 1: happens all the time. It's like the beauty of capturing

638
00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:18,200
Speaker 1: a moment that sounds like a moment in time. It's

639
00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:22,320
Speaker 1: not just everything's perfect and everything's in time and everything's

640
00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:25,960
Speaker 1: in tune, but it's actually the one time they played

641
00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:28,959
Speaker 1: it like this that's a thrilling feeling. And it's one

642
00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:30,920
Speaker 1: of the things that I think is so great about

643
00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:35,920
Speaker 1: bands from like Black Sabbath and led Zeppelin era is

644
00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:39,680
Speaker 1: they didn't they didn't think of songs as a such

645
00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:43,520
Speaker 1: a tightly structured thing. The length of a solo would go,

646
00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:47,240
Speaker 1: however long the solo felt good. It's like if you

647
00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:49,120
Speaker 1: hear the live if you hear the live versions of

648
00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:52,800
Speaker 1: the songs, they're very often very different from the record versions.

649
00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:55,480
Speaker 1: I guess the record versions were the live versions of

650
00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:59,280
Speaker 1: that day right exactly exactly, and there was a there

651
00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:01,400
Speaker 1: was a free them in the way that was done.

652
00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:04,320
Speaker 1: And it seems like somewhere along the way, the idea

653
00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:07,280
Speaker 1: that the record and live and everything was just supposed

654
00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:10,920
Speaker 1: to be exactly the same and all perfect has has

655
00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:15,360
Speaker 1: ticking some of the energy out of the process. You know,

656
00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:18,520
Speaker 1: I never liked pre production on records. I think it's

657
00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:20,760
Speaker 1: the anti christ. I just hate it for the same

658
00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:23,360
Speaker 1: reasons you just said. You know, you always missed the

659
00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:25,920
Speaker 1: best vocal performance the first time somebody sings a song.

660
00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:29,200
Speaker 1: You always miss the intent in the riff after you've

661
00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:31,920
Speaker 1: rehearsed it twenty times. You know, I think trying to

662
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:34,240
Speaker 1: treat record making as if you were making the demo

663
00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:38,000
Speaker 1: is kind of my preferred way. You know, it's easy.

664
00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:40,440
Speaker 1: I feel like it's cheating, you know, because I've had

665
00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:43,480
Speaker 1: so many instances and still do for somebody, especially now

666
00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:45,440
Speaker 1: everybody's got to technology at home and they're able to

667
00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:49,840
Speaker 1: do some incredible demos at their house. And probably my

668
00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:53,200
Speaker 1: worst thing is when somebody goes, let's listen to the demo,

669
00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:56,320
Speaker 1: let's get let's get back to you know, let's let's

670
00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:57,800
Speaker 1: let me listen to what I did here. It's like,

671
00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:00,760
Speaker 1: you know, you've got it there, let's just use it.

672
00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:02,760
Speaker 1: You know you've got it, you nail it, Let's just

673
00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:06,080
Speaker 1: use it. I just had a conversation with an artist

674
00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:11,399
Speaker 1: last week about their demos being too good, and I said,

675
00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:15,120
Speaker 1: you know you, the demos are so good, like they're

676
00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:19,759
Speaker 1: so produced that you can't even tell if the song

677
00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:23,640
Speaker 1: is good enough, because the production is so good that

678
00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:28,400
Speaker 1: you it sounds finished, like it sounds great. That's fascinating.

679
00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:30,239
Speaker 1: You can't even tell this. That's there's a lot of

680
00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:33,160
Speaker 1: vlidarity to what you're saying. It's true, it's like it

681
00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:35,680
Speaker 1: may the song may be great, but you don't know

682
00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:38,239
Speaker 1: because the harmonies are stacked in, they're so beautiful and

683
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:41,480
Speaker 1: the interaction between the parts and that's new instrument comes in.

684
00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:44,759
Speaker 1: It sounds so cool, and so many things that we

685
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:48,640
Speaker 1: like happen. We think, oh, that's that's a great song,

686
00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:50,719
Speaker 1: but it's it has nothing to do with the song

687
00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:54,319
Speaker 1: at that point. That is so fascinating. Yeah, I think

688
00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:57,959
Speaker 1: I think people are fooled by sounds over songs quite

689
00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:00,040
Speaker 1: a bit. I think you're right about that, you and

690
00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:03,319
Speaker 1: I think for the simple fact that some people can't

691
00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:05,799
Speaker 1: hear a song and it's raw's form and get where

692
00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:08,040
Speaker 1: it's going too. I think it's is a fault with

693
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:10,680
Speaker 1: you know, a lot of people down the road because

694
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:14,040
Speaker 1: it's it seems like you know, particularly and some country

695
00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:17,320
Speaker 1: music stuff, they have these demos. The demos are done records,

696
00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:19,400
Speaker 1: and people hear it it sounds like a record and

697
00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:22,200
Speaker 1: like that's it. That's great, you know. But again if

698
00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:24,759
Speaker 1: you if you just pulled down acoustic guitar and played it,

699
00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:27,279
Speaker 1: maybe wouldn't feel the same way. So I love I

700
00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:30,480
Speaker 1: love the iPhone demos. Those are my favorite ones. I

701
00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:32,680
Speaker 1: love it when it's just somebody you know, you hear,

702
00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:36,160
Speaker 1: press it record, lay it down on the table and

703
00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:39,600
Speaker 1: all the you know, not quite finished. I love that

704
00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:42,120
Speaker 1: kind of stuff. I love when there's somewhere you can

705
00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:46,759
Speaker 1: get involved and and and run with it. You know, Yeah,

706
00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:50,880
Speaker 1: as long as you hear this the seed idea that's like, oh,

707
00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:53,839
Speaker 1: there's something good here. So who's on your bucket list?

708
00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:57,120
Speaker 1: You've you've literally worked with everyone's heroes. Who's on your

709
00:35:57,160 --> 00:36:01,040
Speaker 1: bucket list to make a record with? I don't know,

710
00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:03,520
Speaker 1: I don't know. It's not it's not like a bucketless thing.

711
00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:06,920
Speaker 1: It's more like I'll hear something that will get me

712
00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:10,000
Speaker 1: excited about an artist, and I get excited in the moment.

713
00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:13,480
Speaker 1: It's usually not a long term thing. What's the last

714
00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:16,120
Speaker 1: artist that's done that to you? The last one I

715
00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:18,479
Speaker 1: can think of that really got me excited was James Blake,

716
00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:20,160
Speaker 1: and then I got to work with him, and that

717
00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:23,239
Speaker 1: was really exciting because I loved his music. Yeah, he's

718
00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:26,239
Speaker 1: kind of making his own lane, right, absolutely, Yeah, I

719
00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:30,520
Speaker 1: like I like people who make something that's I love

720
00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:32,279
Speaker 1: nine in Schnails for that reason too. At the time

721
00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:34,160
Speaker 1: that nine and Schnails came along, there was nothing like it.

722
00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:39,719
Speaker 1: Most of my favorite music is pretty um outside of

723
00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:42,520
Speaker 1: the mainstream, but so good that it ends up becoming

724
00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:45,279
Speaker 1: the mainstream. I mean, I think Chili Peppers are one

725
00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:47,680
Speaker 1: of those bands for sure. You know, well, system of

726
00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:49,719
Speaker 1: it down is a great example because they went from

727
00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:53,880
Speaker 1: like I can remember producing the first record and the

728
00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:58,040
Speaker 1: program director at Kai Rock, which is a big rocks

729
00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:01,520
Speaker 1: you know, alternative rocks station, and Angelas saying this is

730
00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:03,279
Speaker 1: the band we will never play on our station no

731
00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:06,759
Speaker 1: matter what. And then one year later it was the

732
00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:10,800
Speaker 1: both number one played and most requested band on the station.

733
00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:15,080
Speaker 1: And but but if you heard it, it didn't sound

734
00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:17,920
Speaker 1: like it belonged in the context of everything else going on.

735
00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:22,600
Speaker 1: It was much too left of center. But I think

736
00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:24,640
Speaker 1: the song that was on the radio was so catchy.

737
00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:27,400
Speaker 1: You managed to make you know, every part of that

738
00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:31,439
Speaker 1: song catchy. Well, it's them, It was really them. It's

739
00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:35,040
Speaker 1: like they're The songwriting is so good and they play

740
00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:41,080
Speaker 1: so well. Even though it wasn't familiar, it was and

741
00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:44,839
Speaker 1: it was groovy. It was really danceable. And it's one

742
00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:48,760
Speaker 1: of the things I like is heavy music that's danceable,

743
00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:52,239
Speaker 1: and um, you know, so much of heavy metal is not.

744
00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:55,480
Speaker 1: You know, the Iron Maidens and the Judas Priests tend

745
00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:58,560
Speaker 1: to have a kind of a straight coldness to them,

746
00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:03,600
Speaker 1: whereas ACB see Aerosmith, let Zeppelin have a groove about it,

747
00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:08,640
Speaker 1: and even Slayer as fast as it is. It's groovy.

748
00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:12,600
Speaker 1: It is. Of all the speed metal bands, they're the

749
00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:16,719
Speaker 1: groovy one. Agreed. So how come there's never been a

750
00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:18,640
Speaker 1: Rick Rubin album? Have you ever thought about doing that?

751
00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:21,359
Speaker 1: Never really thought about it. I think it would maybe

752
00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:24,919
Speaker 1: be too hard to come up with what I would.

753
00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:26,880
Speaker 1: I would want it to do too many things that

754
00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:30,520
Speaker 1: it couldn't do. Beautiful thing about it? You know, Just

755
00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:34,480
Speaker 1: pick pick one thing and have all the of all

756
00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:38,160
Speaker 1: the people you work with it you love, make fantasy

757
00:38:38,239 --> 00:38:41,680
Speaker 1: League bands of them. Take you take Joe Perry, put

758
00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:44,520
Speaker 1: him in a band with you know, Angus Young, and

759
00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:48,160
Speaker 1: then put you know the drummer for you know, Chad

760
00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:50,360
Speaker 1: Smith in there or whatever. Just make make Kaja a

761
00:38:50,440 --> 00:38:53,760
Speaker 1: dream team. You know, Yeah, I can't. I can't imagine

762
00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:57,400
Speaker 1: doing it. Come on, I think it'd be fun, you know.

763
00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:01,480
Speaker 1: Tell me about your You did an album with I

764
00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:05,560
Speaker 1: guess we'd call it a concept album I did. There's

765
00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:07,960
Speaker 1: there's a record I adore written by an English guy

766
00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:11,239
Speaker 1: named Paul Kennelly called White Mansions, and it's just uh,

767
00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:13,840
Speaker 1: it was really cool again for me. It was a

768
00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:16,120
Speaker 1: gateway record of country music because it was produced by

769
00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:18,759
Speaker 1: Glenn John's and done in England at Olympic Studios, which

770
00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:21,080
Speaker 1: I think some of the best records in history were

771
00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:22,800
Speaker 1: made out of the studio. But it had Wayale and

772
00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:26,960
Speaker 1: Jennings and Jesse Coulter, and had Eric Clapton and his

773
00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:30,839
Speaker 1: band playing on the record, and Steve Cash and all

774
00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:34,320
Speaker 1: these these great Southern people going over to England and

775
00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:37,720
Speaker 1: making this record, and it just it was a concept about,

776
00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:40,160
Speaker 1: you know, the beginning, middle and end of the Civil

777
00:39:40,239 --> 00:39:45,200
Speaker 1: War and the reconstruction and it's just a beautiful story

778
00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:48,760
Speaker 1: and it's cinematic, and I always love records that are cinematic.

779
00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:51,720
Speaker 1: I think that's why I love you Nancy Son Sinatra

780
00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:53,960
Speaker 1: Bang Bang or something. It's like a cinematic Even though

781
00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:56,640
Speaker 1: it's one guitar, that record really took me somewhere. So

782
00:39:56,680 --> 00:39:59,400
Speaker 1: I've always wanted to do a concert record. So I

783
00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:02,319
Speaker 1: kind of got some people that I love that are

784
00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:05,440
Speaker 1: great singers to all sing about the stories of their

785
00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:07,359
Speaker 1: childhood and growing up. And it could have been about

786
00:40:07,360 --> 00:40:10,440
Speaker 1: a grandparent, a son, or a daughter or parent whatever,

787
00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:12,600
Speaker 1: these Southern stories. And so we met a record called

788
00:40:12,640 --> 00:40:15,960
Speaker 1: Southern Family, and it was it was really cool just

789
00:40:16,120 --> 00:40:18,600
Speaker 1: to make a record for art sake, and not for

790
00:40:18,719 --> 00:40:21,600
Speaker 1: commercial steak, not for any other reason. And I'm really

791
00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:24,920
Speaker 1: blown away that these people let me work with them

792
00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:27,960
Speaker 1: for one and second of all, the label actually put

793
00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:30,480
Speaker 1: it out because it sounds like, Okay, I'm gonna go

794
00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:33,359
Speaker 1: to the label. I got a concert record. Okay, it's

795
00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:35,680
Speaker 1: about southern people. Okay, we're gonna have a lot of

796
00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:37,400
Speaker 1: people on Okay, how are you gonna market it? Like?

797
00:40:37,719 --> 00:40:40,680
Speaker 1: There really is no there's no way to make a

798
00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:43,360
Speaker 1: concert record go. I don't think you know. But it

799
00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:46,200
Speaker 1: was just pure art piece and I'm glad I got

800
00:40:46,239 --> 00:40:48,840
Speaker 1: to do it, and I'm really proud of that record, beautiful.

801
00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:51,120
Speaker 1: Can you can you play us something off of White Mansions?

802
00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:52,840
Speaker 1: Just because I don't know that album. I'd love to

803
00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:56,359
Speaker 1: hear what the inspiration. There's a song called Story to Tell.

804
00:40:56,760 --> 00:40:59,200
Speaker 1: It's what the first song on the record, and I'll

805
00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:03,520
Speaker 1: show you what I like about it, Okay, just to me.

806
00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:06,560
Speaker 1: It's a masterpiece. And the thing that's brilliant about it.

807
00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:11,000
Speaker 1: There's so much restraint in that song, and if you

808
00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:13,279
Speaker 1: if you pay attention, the strings kind of sneak in

809
00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:16,040
Speaker 1: and they're really cool because the strings aren't doing a

810
00:41:16,120 --> 00:41:19,600
Speaker 1: typical string arrangement. It's not fifty things going in fifty

811
00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:23,160
Speaker 1: different ways. And the cello aren't splitting off from the violins.

812
00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:27,080
Speaker 1: The violas it stays as one in this unison note

813
00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:29,200
Speaker 1: and it'll stay on one note and at the end

814
00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:33,120
Speaker 1: it finally go somewhere and it's so powerful, and the

815
00:41:33,239 --> 00:41:38,879
Speaker 1: snare is not existed in the song. It's a sidestick sidestick, wait, wait, wait,

816
00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:42,120
Speaker 1: and then snare drum and then strings open up and

817
00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:45,080
Speaker 1: it's so it's it's a masterclass in production, I think,

818
00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:47,959
Speaker 1: because it's just the tension. It's supposed to be tension,

819
00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:50,600
Speaker 1: because it's the first story in the in the tale

820
00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:53,800
Speaker 1: of the record, But it's just it makes you worry.

821
00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:55,400
Speaker 1: It makes you worry, It makes you worry, and it

822
00:41:55,520 --> 00:41:59,279
Speaker 1: makes you kind of I don't know. It just it

823
00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:02,279
Speaker 1: becomes answer from something that's so small, and the and

824
00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:04,360
Speaker 1: the piano at the beginning, just the diamonds on the

825
00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:08,160
Speaker 1: piano that held chords. Is so simple, it's so brilliant

826
00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:11,960
Speaker 1: and her Vogel you can hear every tremble in it. Beautiful.

827
00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:14,640
Speaker 1: How did you come across it? Shooter Jennings played it

828
00:42:14,680 --> 00:42:16,320
Speaker 1: for me beautiful, first time I ever heard it. He

829
00:42:17,120 --> 00:42:19,759
Speaker 1: you know, that's his mom on that and he played

830
00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:21,200
Speaker 1: it for me and it was again. That was a

831
00:42:21,239 --> 00:42:23,800
Speaker 1: record that got me into country music, you know, written

832
00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:26,239
Speaker 1: by an English guy, you know, recorded in England. It

833
00:42:26,400 --> 00:42:28,719
Speaker 1: seems like a sideways way to get into it, but

834
00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:32,359
Speaker 1: that was the record. That record to me is a cornerstone. Yeah.

835
00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:37,279
Speaker 1: There's something about when music travels a distance, right, it

836
00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:43,600
Speaker 1: takes on a different almost a fantasy like approach. Like

837
00:42:43,960 --> 00:42:49,239
Speaker 1: the Beatles were making American blues and rock music or

838
00:42:49,360 --> 00:42:52,839
Speaker 1: led Zeppelin, we're making American blues music, but they took

839
00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:56,839
Speaker 1: it to an extreme that no true bluesman men would

840
00:42:56,840 --> 00:43:00,800
Speaker 1: ever do that. It would be it would be garish

841
00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:04,000
Speaker 1: for a bluesman. You know, it's like but because they're

842
00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:06,400
Speaker 1: seeing it from a distance, almost like a spaghetti western,

843
00:43:06,520 --> 00:43:12,480
Speaker 1: you know, like a it's viewed from this, it's from

844
00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:14,759
Speaker 1: a distance and you're imagining what it could be. Same

845
00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:18,160
Speaker 1: as true in hip hop, like the original hip hop

846
00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:23,360
Speaker 1: was an inner city thing and the inner city groups

847
00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:28,320
Speaker 1: like Africa, Bambada and Saul Sonic Force, they would dress

848
00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:32,080
Speaker 1: like more like Parliament like, they would dress like people

849
00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:37,160
Speaker 1: like from outer space. They didn't embrace where they were from.

850
00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:40,000
Speaker 1: And then it took like Run DMC, who were more

851
00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:45,879
Speaker 1: suburban kids, to dress more like b boy gangsters from

852
00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:49,640
Speaker 1: the hood because they really came from the suburbs. And

853
00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:53,440
Speaker 1: there's this like seeing it from a distance, you can

854
00:43:53,600 --> 00:43:58,200
Speaker 1: romanticize the story and embellish it in ways that are

855
00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:01,839
Speaker 1: really thrilling for the uh, for the audience, for us,

856
00:44:02,040 --> 00:44:04,880
Speaker 1: you know, that's fascinating. I never really thought like about that.

857
00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:07,960
Speaker 1: I saw this great documentary recently on Connie Plank, the

858
00:44:08,800 --> 00:44:11,040
Speaker 1: you know kind of the the producer did a lot

859
00:44:11,080 --> 00:44:16,759
Speaker 1: of the German Yeah, and Uh. When I was a kid,

860
00:44:16,840 --> 00:44:20,279
Speaker 1: I loved Houdini, the hip hop group Houdini. I love them.

861
00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:22,840
Speaker 1: I was way into it. I didn't realize that they

862
00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:27,400
Speaker 1: went to Germany to record with Connie Plank, and there's

863
00:44:27,480 --> 00:44:31,240
Speaker 1: like six degrees of separation from kraft Work to to Houdini,

864
00:44:31,280 --> 00:44:33,200
Speaker 1: and I didn't I didn't even put two and two together.

865
00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:35,640
Speaker 1: But again, I think I'd like them because they sounded

866
00:44:35,640 --> 00:44:37,239
Speaker 1: like they're from outer space, you know what I mean,

867
00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:40,200
Speaker 1: Like it was every the sounds were so weird, and

868
00:44:40,760 --> 00:44:44,239
Speaker 1: it didn't sound like you know, the I don't know,

869
00:44:44,280 --> 00:44:46,200
Speaker 1: it didn't sound like where I grew up in Savannah.

870
00:44:46,560 --> 00:44:48,359
Speaker 1: It sound like it was coming again from a whole,

871
00:44:48,480 --> 00:44:50,960
Speaker 1: whole different place. You know. I love music that does that,

872
00:44:51,080 --> 00:44:52,839
Speaker 1: and I guess maybe you're right. I mean that has

873
00:44:53,400 --> 00:44:56,520
Speaker 1: its very southern, but something else has stirred in there,

874
00:44:56,600 --> 00:44:59,880
Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, it's southern in a way that someone

875
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:04,040
Speaker 1: one who doesn't live through it could love it. Do

876
00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:07,080
Speaker 1: you know, Like, if you're living through it, you see

877
00:45:07,120 --> 00:45:09,680
Speaker 1: the good and the bad. If you're looking at it

878
00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:12,400
Speaker 1: from the outside, it's just a romantic vision and you

879
00:45:12,480 --> 00:45:15,880
Speaker 1: can really embrace it and maybe go too far, you know,

880
00:45:16,040 --> 00:45:22,359
Speaker 1: in a way that it becomes um more theatrically beautiful. Right,

881
00:45:22,840 --> 00:45:25,279
Speaker 1: we're gonna take a quick break, then we'll be back

882
00:45:25,320 --> 00:45:31,560
Speaker 1: with Dave Cobb. We're back with the rest of Rick

883
00:45:31,600 --> 00:45:35,840
Speaker 1: Rubin's conversation with Dave Cobb. Let's talk more about producing. So,

884
00:45:35,960 --> 00:45:38,880
Speaker 1: how did you end up in the in nineteen ninety

885
00:45:38,920 --> 00:45:43,400
Speaker 1: nine you find yourself starting to produce? How that? How

886
00:45:43,440 --> 00:45:45,600
Speaker 1: did it come about? How did you switch from being

887
00:45:45,680 --> 00:45:48,759
Speaker 1: the studio guitar player. Well, I was in a band

888
00:45:48,760 --> 00:45:51,200
Speaker 1: again at that time, signed and it just felt like

889
00:45:51,280 --> 00:45:54,560
Speaker 1: it was it was I was stuck because the label

890
00:45:54,680 --> 00:45:56,560
Speaker 1: was trying to sell to another label, and I wasn't

891
00:45:56,600 --> 00:46:00,040
Speaker 1: going to ever get out of this deal. So I

892
00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:03,960
Speaker 1: started producing friends. But basically I just fucking lied. I

893
00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:06,200
Speaker 1: said I was a producer. I wasn't a fucking producer.

894
00:46:06,200 --> 00:46:08,600
Speaker 1: I know shit about producing. I didn't go to producing school,

895
00:46:09,040 --> 00:46:10,600
Speaker 1: you know, I didn't know shit. I just fucking made

896
00:46:10,640 --> 00:46:12,680
Speaker 1: it up. One day. It's like, I'm a producer, and

897
00:46:12,800 --> 00:46:14,480
Speaker 1: then i'm you know, then I'd like, you know, I

898
00:46:14,640 --> 00:46:16,960
Speaker 1: gotta I gotta go to Los Angeles because I want

899
00:46:16,960 --> 00:46:18,600
Speaker 1: to do rock and roll records and I gotta be

900
00:46:18,719 --> 00:46:21,080
Speaker 1: out there. And when I got out there, I was

901
00:46:21,120 --> 00:46:23,400
Speaker 1: producing a couple of little things here and there and

902
00:46:23,560 --> 00:46:25,279
Speaker 1: met a producer manager, and all of a sudden, I

903
00:46:25,320 --> 00:46:27,800
Speaker 1: was a legitimate producer, you know. I was on a

904
00:46:27,840 --> 00:46:31,279
Speaker 1: producer roster. So I kind of lied my way into

905
00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:35,239
Speaker 1: the whole thing, you know. And then after i'd really

906
00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:38,040
Speaker 1: worked with Shooter Jennings, I met this guy Jamie Johnson

907
00:46:38,080 --> 00:46:41,480
Speaker 1: through him, and then we had some records kind of

908
00:46:41,560 --> 00:46:43,480
Speaker 1: work with him. And then I met Sturgil Simpson through

909
00:46:43,600 --> 00:46:45,840
Speaker 1: him and we did a Stergil Meta Modern record, and

910
00:46:46,680 --> 00:46:51,000
Speaker 1: then Jason Isbll just kind of kept rolling, you know what,

911
00:46:51,120 --> 00:46:53,920
Speaker 1: would have been the rock artists that you would have

912
00:46:54,120 --> 00:46:56,080
Speaker 1: moved out in the hopes of getting to work with

913
00:46:56,160 --> 00:46:58,040
Speaker 1: at that time. Well I did. I mean I would have.

914
00:46:58,280 --> 00:47:00,399
Speaker 1: I would have loved to work with, you know, Paul

915
00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:02,919
Speaker 1: Rodgers on something you know. But I've loved to work

916
00:47:03,000 --> 00:47:06,960
Speaker 1: with you know, anything you know relating to the stuff

917
00:47:06,960 --> 00:47:10,840
Speaker 1: I grew up And I mean obviously Ozzie or or

918
00:47:10,880 --> 00:47:13,000
Speaker 1: any of the bands that that I really loved growing up,

919
00:47:13,320 --> 00:47:15,160
Speaker 1: Humble Pie, that would have been a dream one. But

920
00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:17,440
Speaker 1: he was Steve, Steve Marriott or somebody like that at

921
00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:19,839
Speaker 1: the time. But I didn't get to work with any

922
00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:22,759
Speaker 1: that stuff. But I did find work with this band

923
00:47:22,920 --> 00:47:25,279
Speaker 1: rival Sons that kind of took off in the rock world,

924
00:47:25,280 --> 00:47:27,600
Speaker 1: and I've gotten to work with a bunch of rock

925
00:47:27,680 --> 00:47:30,520
Speaker 1: bands through them, so I still get to do quite

926
00:47:30,520 --> 00:47:32,560
Speaker 1: a bit of rock and roll and I still love it.

927
00:47:32,960 --> 00:47:36,040
Speaker 1: But yeah, man, the producer thing, I just I fell

928
00:47:36,120 --> 00:47:38,000
Speaker 1: in love with it because I've always been a studio rat,

929
00:47:38,040 --> 00:47:39,839
Speaker 1: even when I was in a band or a session player.

930
00:47:39,840 --> 00:47:43,520
Speaker 1: I love being in the studio. I love working really fast,

931
00:47:43,680 --> 00:47:46,160
Speaker 1: capturing a moment like like you said, like a yearbook,

932
00:47:46,280 --> 00:47:50,439
Speaker 1: and just remembering that moment, and I was a session player,

933
00:47:50,480 --> 00:47:52,360
Speaker 1: so I played drums and bass and guitar. So I

934
00:47:52,520 --> 00:47:56,960
Speaker 1: love helping people find the parts. And I just love

935
00:47:57,000 --> 00:47:59,400
Speaker 1: getting involved with the songs and just being around it.

936
00:47:59,480 --> 00:48:02,120
Speaker 1: And even if you know my day is done, I'll

937
00:48:02,160 --> 00:48:04,080
Speaker 1: just hanging around the studio two or three hours later

938
00:48:04,280 --> 00:48:06,880
Speaker 1: and just screw off and look at stuff. You know.

939
00:48:07,239 --> 00:48:08,880
Speaker 1: Still I have the same feeling about a studio that

940
00:48:08,920 --> 00:48:11,480
Speaker 1: I had when I got my first real guitar. I

941
00:48:11,480 --> 00:48:15,719
Speaker 1: remember getting an SG really bad seventies, like the worst one,

942
00:48:16,400 --> 00:48:18,640
Speaker 1: Gibson SG, and putting it into my bed and just

943
00:48:18,800 --> 00:48:21,240
Speaker 1: looking at it until I fell asleep. And I remember

944
00:48:21,320 --> 00:48:23,800
Speaker 1: smelling the case, the smell of a Gibson guitar in

945
00:48:23,880 --> 00:48:25,799
Speaker 1: a case, you know. And I feel that way about

946
00:48:25,800 --> 00:48:27,879
Speaker 1: a studio still. I just you can't get me out

947
00:48:27,920 --> 00:48:30,080
Speaker 1: of them, you know. And if I have a day off,

948
00:48:30,160 --> 00:48:34,080
Speaker 1: I'm either looking at stuff about studios or reading about

949
00:48:34,640 --> 00:48:37,360
Speaker 1: you know, engineers or producers or whatever it is. I

950
00:48:37,440 --> 00:48:40,800
Speaker 1: just I'm completely enthralled with everything about studios. You know,

951
00:48:41,040 --> 00:48:44,200
Speaker 1: you typically play on the records that you produce. I do.

952
00:48:44,520 --> 00:48:47,920
Speaker 1: I play a lot. Jimmy Miller one of my favorite producers.

953
00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:50,320
Speaker 1: He produced my favorite air of stone stuff, you know,

954
00:48:50,480 --> 00:48:53,680
Speaker 1: kind of let it bleed through exile. He was a

955
00:48:53,760 --> 00:48:56,080
Speaker 1: drummer and he would go in from what I was told.

956
00:48:56,400 --> 00:48:58,839
Speaker 1: He would play percussion with the band and he kind

957
00:48:58,880 --> 00:49:01,320
Speaker 1: of helped kind of guy the rhythm and the field.

958
00:49:01,360 --> 00:49:05,399
Speaker 1: So a lot of records. I play acoustic guitar as

959
00:49:05,440 --> 00:49:07,400
Speaker 1: a shaker, you know, I treated like a shaker or

960
00:49:07,440 --> 00:49:10,239
Speaker 1: a play a shaker or whatever it is. Instead of

961
00:49:10,320 --> 00:49:13,719
Speaker 1: having a click, I'll just become, you know, the click

962
00:49:14,120 --> 00:49:16,080
Speaker 1: or the human click for it. So yeah, I like

963
00:49:16,200 --> 00:49:17,320
Speaker 1: being in there. I don't. I don't know if I

964
00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:19,680
Speaker 1: can feel it unless I'm kind of in it. And

965
00:49:19,840 --> 00:49:22,200
Speaker 1: even if I'm not playing on something i'm in the

966
00:49:22,280 --> 00:49:24,359
Speaker 1: room with the band, I don't. I don't. I never

967
00:49:24,480 --> 00:49:28,000
Speaker 1: liked the separation of control room and studio. I love

968
00:49:28,080 --> 00:49:29,719
Speaker 1: being in the middle of it the whole time. I

969
00:49:29,920 --> 00:49:32,680
Speaker 1: love the instant communication, especially if you have a guitar on,

970
00:49:32,800 --> 00:49:34,520
Speaker 1: you can go, Okay, why don't we try this part

971
00:49:34,560 --> 00:49:36,839
Speaker 1: for a bridge or try this chord here. I feel

972
00:49:36,880 --> 00:49:38,840
Speaker 1: like it's a it's a bit of a crutch to

973
00:49:38,920 --> 00:49:42,200
Speaker 1: have a guitar on the whole time. It helps me

974
00:49:42,320 --> 00:49:46,160
Speaker 1: work faster. You know absolutely. Are you ever surprised after

975
00:49:46,280 --> 00:49:49,680
Speaker 1: being on the floor going in and hearing it through speakers?

976
00:49:50,360 --> 00:49:55,600
Speaker 1: For sure, it's usually sounds like shit, But now usually

977
00:49:55,640 --> 00:49:57,360
Speaker 1: I feel like you can feel the take as it

978
00:49:57,560 --> 00:49:59,360
Speaker 1: as it goes down. I feel like you kind of

979
00:49:59,400 --> 00:50:02,000
Speaker 1: feel that one. But I've definitely been surprised where ones

980
00:50:02,120 --> 00:50:04,399
Speaker 1: I didn't think was the one was the one too.

981
00:50:05,160 --> 00:50:07,320
Speaker 1: You know, somebody else may may have a better idea.

982
00:50:08,280 --> 00:50:10,560
Speaker 1: Somebody said, you know that that second one, we should

983
00:50:10,600 --> 00:50:12,400
Speaker 1: listen to that one too, and then they're right and

984
00:50:12,440 --> 00:50:15,800
Speaker 1: I'm wrong. Somebody told me a long time ago about

985
00:50:16,520 --> 00:50:18,839
Speaker 1: sometimes and actually I think if somebody used to work

986
00:50:18,840 --> 00:50:23,080
Speaker 1: with you, Greg Gordon, it's a kind of a mentor

987
00:50:23,160 --> 00:50:25,000
Speaker 1: to me. And Greg Gordon told me it's like sometimes

988
00:50:25,080 --> 00:50:27,799
Speaker 1: it just feels like a record, and I'm always looking

989
00:50:27,840 --> 00:50:29,920
Speaker 1: for that take. It's like it just feels like a record.

990
00:50:30,560 --> 00:50:31,919
Speaker 1: You know, I don't know what it is. I don't

991
00:50:31,920 --> 00:50:34,200
Speaker 1: know what that means. Yeah, sometimes it just kind of

992
00:50:34,320 --> 00:50:37,279
Speaker 1: comes together in a funny way where like the take

993
00:50:37,360 --> 00:50:41,640
Speaker 1: before it, everyone's doing pretty much the same thing, and

994
00:50:41,800 --> 00:50:44,480
Speaker 1: the next one's not like everyone's playing a lot better.

995
00:50:44,560 --> 00:50:46,839
Speaker 1: It's pretty similar, but all of a sudden it goes

996
00:50:46,880 --> 00:50:50,800
Speaker 1: from like mediocre to mind blowings. Yeah, I don't know

997
00:50:50,840 --> 00:50:54,040
Speaker 1: what that is, but there's something to it. And God,

998
00:50:54,080 --> 00:50:57,320
Speaker 1: I think I think you know, being in the studio,

999
00:50:57,360 --> 00:50:59,440
Speaker 1: you kind of just make stuff up and and it

1000
00:50:59,560 --> 00:51:02,680
Speaker 1: just it's a lot of feeling as opposed to being

1001
00:51:02,760 --> 00:51:05,439
Speaker 1: clinical about it. I'm never clinical about anything. I don't

1002
00:51:05,520 --> 00:51:08,120
Speaker 1: I don't think I have that kind of smarts to

1003
00:51:08,160 --> 00:51:10,880
Speaker 1: be super clinical about stuff. I'm always looking for what

1004
00:51:11,440 --> 00:51:13,000
Speaker 1: was it about that one? It's just like you're saying

1005
00:51:13,080 --> 00:51:14,920
Speaker 1: that take, that's the one. I don't know why I

1006
00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:16,640
Speaker 1: can inscribe it to you. Do you do a lot

1007
00:51:16,680 --> 00:51:18,000
Speaker 1: of tend to do a lot of takes or No,

1008
00:51:18,920 --> 00:51:21,839
Speaker 1: not really, but I have done a lot of takes

1009
00:51:21,880 --> 00:51:24,879
Speaker 1: on certain things. I mean usually I think by fourth

1010
00:51:24,960 --> 00:51:26,440
Speaker 1: or fifth take, I think you kind of have a

1011
00:51:26,520 --> 00:51:29,640
Speaker 1: good sense of the song. You know. I'm not somebody

1012
00:51:29,680 --> 00:51:32,680
Speaker 1: that goes in there and just says, try something else.

1013
00:51:32,719 --> 00:51:36,279
Speaker 1: So I think I'm always kind of really involved, and

1014
00:51:37,320 --> 00:51:40,360
Speaker 1: if there's a part that's missing, I'll suggest something. I

1015
00:51:40,360 --> 00:51:42,480
Speaker 1: don't necessarily write it, but I'll suggest to somebody to

1016
00:51:42,560 --> 00:51:45,600
Speaker 1: write it. So I like to work super quick, super fast,

1017
00:51:45,760 --> 00:51:48,800
Speaker 1: and just get it down because I think the tension

1018
00:51:48,920 --> 00:51:51,720
Speaker 1: span mainly in blaming it on myself, I think goes

1019
00:51:51,920 --> 00:51:54,720
Speaker 1: after you do tons of takes. But there's there's definitely

1020
00:51:54,760 --> 00:51:57,879
Speaker 1: been times where we've recorded a song and felt pretty

1021
00:51:57,920 --> 00:51:59,440
Speaker 1: good about it, listened to it later ago like I

1022
00:51:59,520 --> 00:52:01,000
Speaker 1: don't know, if we got it, I'll just recut it.

1023
00:52:01,680 --> 00:52:03,680
Speaker 1: It's easier than I don't think, you know, I don't

1024
00:52:03,719 --> 00:52:05,360
Speaker 1: think I could cut ninety takes of a song. I

1025
00:52:05,440 --> 00:52:07,440
Speaker 1: think i'd be over it. You know, what about you?

1026
00:52:07,520 --> 00:52:09,320
Speaker 1: How do you do it? Takes? What do you do? Debates?

1027
00:52:09,480 --> 00:52:12,560
Speaker 1: Really depends on the artist goes different ways. Sometimes it's

1028
00:52:13,200 --> 00:52:16,000
Speaker 1: sometimes it happens and you know, one or two or

1029
00:52:16,040 --> 00:52:18,239
Speaker 1: two or three takes, and sometimes it's I've been on

1030
00:52:18,360 --> 00:52:22,280
Speaker 1: projects where we've done I don't know, ninety takes or something.

1031
00:52:22,719 --> 00:52:26,719
Speaker 1: You know, it's like wow, who depends on the artist? Yeah,

1032
00:52:26,760 --> 00:52:28,839
Speaker 1: I love going in and usually I try to get

1033
00:52:29,000 --> 00:52:32,440
Speaker 1: you know, two songs a day done. Still nice, And

1034
00:52:32,480 --> 00:52:34,839
Speaker 1: it's not it's not because it's like a bragging right

1035
00:52:34,880 --> 00:52:36,319
Speaker 1: to get that done, but I just love the fin

1036
00:52:36,440 --> 00:52:38,680
Speaker 1: sense of completion. I mean, I mean, I'll be totally completely,

1037
00:52:38,680 --> 00:52:42,040
Speaker 1: but just the basic of two songs and then then

1038
00:52:42,080 --> 00:52:45,560
Speaker 1: I like kind of goofing off. I've really value goofing

1039
00:52:45,600 --> 00:52:47,720
Speaker 1: off in the studio, which is probably something I should

1040
00:52:47,800 --> 00:52:51,680
Speaker 1: never say out loud, especially when when labels are paying

1041
00:52:51,719 --> 00:52:53,400
Speaker 1: me money to make records. I shouldn't tell them that

1042
00:52:53,400 --> 00:52:54,879
Speaker 1: I love gooping off in the studio. But I think

1043
00:52:54,880 --> 00:52:58,600
Speaker 1: there's a lot of the time of camaraderie and joking

1044
00:52:58,680 --> 00:53:02,520
Speaker 1: around and listen to records, and that informs what the

1045
00:53:02,560 --> 00:53:07,040
Speaker 1: record becomes. Absolutely, and sometimes sometimes the best ideas come

1046
00:53:07,239 --> 00:53:13,399
Speaker 1: in the non work time in the studios. Always, Yeah,

1047
00:53:13,800 --> 00:53:16,960
Speaker 1: I produced a Less Strokes album, and on that I

1048
00:53:17,120 --> 00:53:20,680
Speaker 1: had them come to the studio and just jam every

1049
00:53:20,800 --> 00:53:24,040
Speaker 1: day with the idea of creating something new because in

1050
00:53:24,080 --> 00:53:25,840
Speaker 1: their minds, you know, the album was written, they already

1051
00:53:25,880 --> 00:53:28,399
Speaker 1: had all the songs like come in play every day

1052
00:53:28,440 --> 00:53:31,040
Speaker 1: before I get there for an hour, and when I

1053
00:53:31,120 --> 00:53:33,320
Speaker 1: get there, you know, have something to play for me

1054
00:53:33,440 --> 00:53:35,520
Speaker 1: that you didn't have when you got to the studio,

1055
00:53:36,400 --> 00:53:39,959
Speaker 1: but that you make in that hour. And a couple

1056
00:53:40,000 --> 00:53:41,880
Speaker 1: of things ended up being on the album coming out

1057
00:53:41,920 --> 00:53:45,600
Speaker 1: of those sort of just experimental before the real session

1058
00:53:45,760 --> 00:53:49,440
Speaker 1: starts playing, you know, and you're recording the whole time, right,

1059
00:53:50,239 --> 00:53:53,239
Speaker 1: We were recording the whole time, but it was more

1060
00:53:53,320 --> 00:53:55,279
Speaker 1: about the writing of it. It was more about them

1061
00:53:55,320 --> 00:53:58,640
Speaker 1: being in the room together and playing sometimes. It actually

1062
00:53:58,760 --> 00:54:03,080
Speaker 1: the take came for that so cool playtime. Sometimes it

1063
00:54:03,239 --> 00:54:05,920
Speaker 1: was just like, oh, this is really good if we

1064
00:54:06,040 --> 00:54:08,080
Speaker 1: chop it up like this and then make it into

1065
00:54:08,080 --> 00:54:10,480
Speaker 1: a song and then they would play it. Wow, that

1066
00:54:10,680 --> 00:54:14,719
Speaker 1: is so brilliant, that is so smart. Shit just a

1067
00:54:14,800 --> 00:54:17,360
Speaker 1: doubt again, and that, I'll tell you. The idea for

1068
00:54:17,480 --> 00:54:21,759
Speaker 1: that came from the fact that they all while they

1069
00:54:21,840 --> 00:54:23,719
Speaker 1: all came from New York and grew up, you know,

1070
00:54:23,800 --> 00:54:27,279
Speaker 1: playing together all the time. As bands get older, they

1071
00:54:27,360 --> 00:54:29,439
Speaker 1: ended up moving to all different places, so they don't

1072
00:54:29,520 --> 00:54:32,680
Speaker 1: really get to play as a band as much as

1073
00:54:32,760 --> 00:54:35,680
Speaker 1: they used to. So they were coming together for the

1074
00:54:35,760 --> 00:54:38,680
Speaker 1: first time in you know, really years to make a

1075
00:54:38,760 --> 00:54:42,799
Speaker 1: record and it felt like even if nothing came from

1076
00:54:42,880 --> 00:54:45,719
Speaker 1: it writing, just being in the room playing together as

1077
00:54:45,719 --> 00:54:48,800
Speaker 1: a band with no stakes would end up having a

1078
00:54:48,840 --> 00:54:51,440
Speaker 1: good effect on the performances later in that day. It's

1079
00:54:51,480 --> 00:54:56,960
Speaker 1: also a different like when you're trying to execute something

1080
00:54:57,040 --> 00:54:59,719
Speaker 1: and you know what it is, is different than when

1081
00:54:59,760 --> 00:55:02,200
Speaker 1: you're just playing free to make something up. And I

1082
00:55:02,320 --> 00:55:06,600
Speaker 1: thought having those muscles open, those make something up muscles

1083
00:55:06,680 --> 00:55:10,880
Speaker 1: open to bring into the performance of the thing we

1084
00:55:10,960 --> 00:55:13,279
Speaker 1: know we're doing could be a good thing and turned

1085
00:55:13,280 --> 00:55:16,279
Speaker 1: out to be. That is absolutely brilliant. It probably made

1086
00:55:16,320 --> 00:55:18,120
Speaker 1: them feel like they were in rehearsal space, you know,

1087
00:55:18,200 --> 00:55:21,359
Speaker 1: in the parents basement or whatever, when they're fifteen again

1088
00:55:21,440 --> 00:55:24,760
Speaker 1: or something. You know. Yeah, really sharp, I love that idea.

1089
00:55:25,040 --> 00:55:27,040
Speaker 1: I'm gonna steal it. I'll send you a pick. Yeah.

1090
00:55:27,040 --> 00:55:31,080
Speaker 1: I think it's any anything we can do to get

1091
00:55:31,120 --> 00:55:33,879
Speaker 1: an artist to tune into their lives at the time

1092
00:55:33,920 --> 00:55:37,759
Speaker 1: that they were doing their either their best work or

1093
00:55:37,840 --> 00:55:42,080
Speaker 1: the time that they most loved what they did. You know,

1094
00:55:42,080 --> 00:55:44,239
Speaker 1: because if you work with some artists that have been

1095
00:55:44,280 --> 00:55:47,960
Speaker 1: doing it for a long time, it has become a job, right,

1096
00:55:48,400 --> 00:55:51,799
Speaker 1: whereas when you're first doing it, there's usually much more

1097
00:55:51,880 --> 00:55:55,040
Speaker 1: of a passion in the process. And you can imagine

1098
00:55:55,080 --> 00:55:57,920
Speaker 1: the difference between making your first or second album and

1099
00:55:58,080 --> 00:56:01,920
Speaker 1: making your fortieth album, you know, or your fiftieth album.

1100
00:56:02,440 --> 00:56:05,279
Speaker 1: Those are different things. No, you're absolutely right. That is

1101
00:56:05,320 --> 00:56:09,040
Speaker 1: such a smart concept. Just have them get together and play.

1102
00:56:09,120 --> 00:56:11,520
Speaker 1: That doesn't happen, You're right. After band's been together for

1103
00:56:11,560 --> 00:56:13,839
Speaker 1: a while, they don't really do that anymore, you know. Yeah,

1104
00:56:13,920 --> 00:56:16,440
Speaker 1: there's one of the I can remember when I worked

1105
00:56:16,480 --> 00:56:21,080
Speaker 1: with Metallica, suggesting because they're very popular band, you know,

1106
00:56:21,960 --> 00:56:26,160
Speaker 1: very well known, well loved band, you can rely on

1107
00:56:26,239 --> 00:56:27,800
Speaker 1: the fact that people are going to listen to a

1108
00:56:27,880 --> 00:56:32,759
Speaker 1: Metallica record, and that goes into your process of people

1109
00:56:32,800 --> 00:56:36,400
Speaker 1: pay attention to us, and that's not always okay when

1110
00:56:36,400 --> 00:56:40,120
Speaker 1: you're starting, that's not the case. So one of the

1111
00:56:40,800 --> 00:56:45,440
Speaker 1: writing assignments was, imagine there was no such band as Metallica,

1112
00:56:46,520 --> 00:56:51,120
Speaker 1: and imagine you guys are going to enter a Battle

1113
00:56:51,160 --> 00:56:54,200
Speaker 1: of the Band's contest next week and you have to

1114
00:56:54,280 --> 00:56:56,360
Speaker 1: write music that's going to blow everybody away in the

1115
00:56:56,480 --> 00:57:01,000
Speaker 1: room and nobody knows who you are. Oh man, that's

1116
00:57:01,040 --> 00:57:06,160
Speaker 1: why you're Rick Rubin. That is brilliant. I'm taking notes

1117
00:57:06,200 --> 00:57:09,359
Speaker 1: because those are just brilliant, brilliant statements. It's so true though,

1118
00:57:09,520 --> 00:57:12,160
Speaker 1: it's very true. I've absolutely been in the studio with

1119
00:57:12,680 --> 00:57:16,360
Speaker 1: artists who've made multiple records and they go, you know, oh,

1120
00:57:16,520 --> 00:57:18,480
Speaker 1: let's do a groove like blah blah blah like our

1121
00:57:18,520 --> 00:57:20,120
Speaker 1: other record, and we need one of these for the record,

1122
00:57:20,160 --> 00:57:22,680
Speaker 1: because that's what we do that we always have. You know,

1123
00:57:22,760 --> 00:57:25,320
Speaker 1: the one, you know, acoustic song on the record. You

1124
00:57:25,360 --> 00:57:28,240
Speaker 1: know that's that's what you're saying. It's so brilliant valid

1125
00:57:28,320 --> 00:57:31,200
Speaker 1: because it really isn't. I mean, people get attracted to

1126
00:57:31,600 --> 00:57:33,720
Speaker 1: when they discover a band, and I guess getting a

1127
00:57:33,800 --> 00:57:37,920
Speaker 1: banded rediscover you know that that themselves too, is I

1128
00:57:37,960 --> 00:57:41,120
Speaker 1: don't know, that's so smart, so smart it's I could

1129
00:57:41,160 --> 00:57:43,680
Speaker 1: remember when I first said to Johnny Cash, like the

1130
00:57:43,800 --> 00:57:46,720
Speaker 1: goal would be to make the best album you've ever made,

1131
00:57:46,800 --> 00:57:49,200
Speaker 1: and he looked at me like I was insane, Like

1132
00:57:49,400 --> 00:57:52,920
Speaker 1: like that just seemed like, you know, here's someone who

1133
00:57:52,960 --> 00:57:54,920
Speaker 1: had made a lot of records over a long period

1134
00:57:54,960 --> 00:57:56,640
Speaker 1: of time, a lot of records that people didn't care

1135
00:57:56,680 --> 00:58:00,680
Speaker 1: about for probably twenty years. He'd been dropped from two labels,

1136
00:58:01,240 --> 00:58:03,520
Speaker 1: and the suggestion that we're going to make his best

1137
00:58:03,600 --> 00:58:08,360
Speaker 1: album ever just seemed like so foreign. But that's the job, Like,

1138
00:58:09,040 --> 00:58:10,520
Speaker 1: why are we doing it if we're not going to

1139
00:58:10,600 --> 00:58:13,120
Speaker 1: make the best one ever. I mean, those records are

1140
00:58:13,160 --> 00:58:15,160
Speaker 1: really what bowl a lot of people to Johnny Cash,

1141
00:58:15,320 --> 00:58:18,760
Speaker 1: So you know, you you captured discovery on those records,

1142
00:58:19,520 --> 00:58:22,040
Speaker 1: you know, discovery of the audience discovered him. But also

1143
00:58:22,120 --> 00:58:25,240
Speaker 1: there's discovery in that sound that you know, the thing

1144
00:58:25,280 --> 00:58:27,600
Speaker 1: we're talking about earlier with the White Mansions, with the cinema,

1145
00:58:27,960 --> 00:58:32,520
Speaker 1: the simple piano. That record was that record. Those records

1146
00:58:32,600 --> 00:58:35,320
Speaker 1: you did with him were just beautiful examples of simplicity

1147
00:58:35,400 --> 00:58:38,760
Speaker 1: in the best way because you knew. I'm speaking for

1148
00:58:38,880 --> 00:58:40,200
Speaker 1: you here, but I feel like you knew it was

1149
00:58:40,280 --> 00:58:43,920
Speaker 1: about his voice and his narrative and everything that around

1150
00:58:43,960 --> 00:58:48,240
Speaker 1: the companies that is just supporting that. It's so smart.

1151
00:58:48,880 --> 00:58:52,040
Speaker 1: But what'sn't I don't know that it was that thought out.

1152
00:58:52,240 --> 00:58:55,240
Speaker 1: It was more of a just part of the experiment

1153
00:58:55,360 --> 00:58:59,040
Speaker 1: of figuring out what worked. So it started with demos

1154
00:58:59,080 --> 00:59:01,480
Speaker 1: in my living room, and then we went into the

1155
00:59:01,520 --> 00:59:04,960
Speaker 1: studio with different players and tried different things, and then

1156
00:59:05,200 --> 00:59:08,320
Speaker 1: eventually the demos from the living room just sounded better.

1157
00:59:08,520 --> 00:59:14,200
Speaker 1: So being free enough to know that you could record

1158
00:59:14,240 --> 00:59:17,600
Speaker 1: it in your living room on the couch and if

1159
00:59:17,640 --> 00:59:21,280
Speaker 1: you like it, then that's the record, that's okay. So smart,

1160
00:59:21,640 --> 00:59:24,760
Speaker 1: it's so smart. Yeah, that stuff is absolutely brilliant. I

1161
00:59:24,800 --> 00:59:28,560
Speaker 1: think it redefined a lot, you know, and maybe at

1162
00:59:28,560 --> 00:59:31,880
Speaker 1: the time, and I'm just speculating, like country was radio

1163
00:59:32,200 --> 00:59:35,840
Speaker 1: only and I think those records kind of you know,

1164
00:59:36,040 --> 00:59:37,440
Speaker 1: I don't know if there was a viral was the

1165
00:59:37,480 --> 00:59:39,720
Speaker 1: word at the time, but they went viral and kind

1166
00:59:39,760 --> 00:59:42,080
Speaker 1: of beat the system in a lot of ways, and

1167
00:59:42,160 --> 00:59:44,360
Speaker 1: I thought, I think that's really cool. One of the

1168
00:59:44,440 --> 00:59:47,720
Speaker 1: best things that came from that was other grown up

1169
00:59:47,800 --> 00:59:51,120
Speaker 1: artists telling me, I feel like I can like I

1170
00:59:51,200 --> 00:59:53,800
Speaker 1: can try to make something good now, you know, like

1171
00:59:54,000 --> 00:59:57,640
Speaker 1: like they saw at that point in Johnny's career that

1172
00:59:58,040 --> 01:00:01,439
Speaker 1: he could be received well, whereas other people just sort

1173
01:00:01,480 --> 01:00:04,439
Speaker 1: of thought it can never happen again, and then they would,

1174
01:00:04,840 --> 01:00:08,000
Speaker 1: you know, raise their game. That's an interesting thing that

1175
01:00:08,160 --> 01:00:10,800
Speaker 1: people even think that way, you know. I think there's

1176
01:00:10,840 --> 01:00:13,880
Speaker 1: such value in making records for adults. You know. I

1177
01:00:13,920 --> 01:00:17,680
Speaker 1: think a lot of people just angle for whatever, you know,

1178
01:00:18,280 --> 01:00:23,240
Speaker 1: the big immediate gratification hit is. But man, adults are

1179
01:00:23,280 --> 01:00:24,920
Speaker 1: out there, and adults grew up at a time and

1180
01:00:25,000 --> 01:00:27,320
Speaker 1: you paid for music, and you go to shows, and

1181
01:00:27,480 --> 01:00:30,160
Speaker 1: you live a lifestyle around an artist. And I think

1182
01:00:30,640 --> 01:00:34,400
Speaker 1: records like that, the cash stuff you did, they're adult records,

1183
01:00:34,440 --> 01:00:36,280
Speaker 1: even though kids found them and discover them, they're just

1184
01:00:36,640 --> 01:00:38,840
Speaker 1: it's adult music. I think there's so much value to that,

1185
01:00:38,960 --> 01:00:41,560
Speaker 1: you know, And I hate to hate to think anybody

1186
01:00:41,560 --> 01:00:43,720
Speaker 1: who is a hero would think that way about their

1187
01:00:43,760 --> 01:00:47,200
Speaker 1: careers because you know, God, I would love to hear

1188
01:00:47,920 --> 01:00:51,280
Speaker 1: you know, one of my favorite bands getting back together.

1189
01:00:51,320 --> 01:00:53,520
Speaker 1: I'd love to hear the Zombies make a new record. Incredible.

1190
01:00:53,640 --> 01:00:55,640
Speaker 1: I'd be the first in line to buy it, you

1191
01:00:55,680 --> 01:00:58,760
Speaker 1: know what I mean? Absolutely, you know, and that guy

1192
01:00:59,240 --> 01:01:03,760
Speaker 1: can still saying unbelievably. Well, you know. Yeah, So I

1193
01:01:03,800 --> 01:01:06,560
Speaker 1: think there's probably a list of people that I would

1194
01:01:06,600 --> 01:01:08,800
Speaker 1: love to hear make new records. You know, reach out.

1195
01:01:09,640 --> 01:01:13,840
Speaker 1: I'm scared, man, Rod Argent, come on, Yeah, what a

1196
01:01:13,880 --> 01:01:17,480
Speaker 1: hell of a player, right, yeah, yeah, I'm I'm scared.

1197
01:01:17,680 --> 01:01:20,400
Speaker 1: I would never reach out to anybody, but but definitely

1198
01:01:20,440 --> 01:01:22,360
Speaker 1: I might have his email. If I can find his email,

1199
01:01:22,360 --> 01:01:24,240
Speaker 1: I'm sending it to you, and you're going to reach out, Okay,

1200
01:01:24,320 --> 01:01:26,400
Speaker 1: I'll tell I'll tell him. I'll put in the preference,

1201
01:01:26,720 --> 01:01:29,640
Speaker 1: Rick Rubbin said, and then maybe go answer my email back.

1202
01:01:30,000 --> 01:01:31,880
Speaker 1: You can blame me all you want. I want to

1203
01:01:31,920 --> 01:01:34,080
Speaker 1: hear the record that you make with Zone, Well, i'll

1204
01:01:34,120 --> 01:01:36,800
Speaker 1: call you man, you produce it with me. I would

1205
01:01:36,840 --> 01:01:38,280
Speaker 1: love to do a record with you one day. That's

1206
01:01:38,320 --> 01:01:40,520
Speaker 1: on my list of things to do. You know. I'm

1207
01:01:40,560 --> 01:01:42,240
Speaker 1: sure we will find a way to make that happen.

1208
01:01:42,520 --> 01:01:46,320
Speaker 1: All right, man, it'd be great, cool man. All right, well,

1209
01:01:46,480 --> 01:01:50,080
Speaker 1: thanks for everything. A pleasure speaking to you always. Man.

1210
01:01:50,200 --> 01:01:51,800
Speaker 1: Hopefully I'll see you one day in the in the

1211
01:01:51,880 --> 01:01:56,920
Speaker 1: in the future, when the world gets normal. Thanks to

1212
01:01:57,000 --> 01:02:00,400
Speaker 1: Dave Cobb for running through his career and inspiration for Rick.

1213
01:02:01,000 --> 01:02:03,080
Speaker 1: You can hear all of our favorite Dave Cobb produced

1214
01:02:03,120 --> 01:02:06,040
Speaker 1: tracks on a playlist at broken record podcast dot com,

1215
01:02:06,760 --> 01:02:09,160
Speaker 1: and be sure to subscribe to our YouTube channel at

1216
01:02:09,280 --> 01:02:13,240
Speaker 1: YouTube dot com slash broken record Podcast. There you can

1217
01:02:13,280 --> 01:02:17,160
Speaker 1: find extended cuts of our new and old episodes. Broken

1218
01:02:17,240 --> 01:02:21,640
Speaker 1: Record is produced with helpful Leah Rose, Jason Gambrel, Martin Gonzalez,

1219
01:02:22,160 --> 01:02:26,560
Speaker 1: Eric Sandler and his executive produced by Miolabel. Broken Record

1220
01:02:26,640 --> 01:02:29,320
Speaker 1: is a production of Pushkin Industries and if you like us,

1221
01:02:29,560 --> 01:02:31,720
Speaker 1: please remember to share, rate, and review our show on

1222
01:02:31,840 --> 01:02:35,080
Speaker 1: your podcast app. Our theme music is by Kenny Beats.

1223
01:02:35,320 --> 01:02:36,880
Speaker 1: I'm justin Richmond Bass