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Speaker 1: Hi, everybody.

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Speaker 2: It is on our COVID timeline June eighteenth, twenty twenty,

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Speaker 2: and I am here to introduce the episode on the

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Speaker 2: Manhattan Grid. I loved, loved this episode, I think, as

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Speaker 2: most people know by now, I in particular, am pretty

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Speaker 2: obsessed with not just New York, like I love New

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Speaker 2: York as a town, but the inner workings of New

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Speaker 2: York and the garbage collection and the mail delivery and

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Speaker 2: building that city up from the ground up, which is

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Speaker 2: what this episode relates to, is how they laid out

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Speaker 2: that Manhattan grid. And here's one thing I remember from it,

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Speaker 2: and here's a fun tip if you're traveling to New York.

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Speaker 2: They use spikes in the ground, I think iron spikes

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Speaker 2: to map out that grid, and you'll learn that in

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Speaker 2: this episode to follow. You know, so they knew where

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Speaker 2: the streets and the street corners would meet up in

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Speaker 2: that big rectangle, and to this day you can still

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Speaker 2: find some of those. The only place I know about them,

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Speaker 2: I'm not sure if they're on the streets anymore at all.

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Speaker 2: It seems highly unlikely, but I know you can find

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Speaker 2: them for a fact in Central Park here and there

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Speaker 2: in the rocks, those big giant boulders there because I

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Speaker 2: learned about these and when I was in New York

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Speaker 2: sometime between June eighteenth, twenty twenty when we released this and

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Speaker 2: now I can't remember.

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Speaker 1: I feel like it's a few years ago.

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Speaker 2: I saw one of those spikes, and I think I

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Speaker 2: talked about that on a later episode, but it thrilled

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Speaker 2: me to no end, and I geeked out and told

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Speaker 2: everybody I was with what that was and what it represented,

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Speaker 2: and it was a real thrill for me. No lie,

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Speaker 2: just a spike in the rock. Thought it was super cool.

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Speaker 2: So check this episode out on the Manhattan Grid. Welcome

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Speaker 2: to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 3: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, and

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Speaker 3: there's Charles w Chuck Bryant, and this is Stuff you

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Speaker 3: Should Know another in our Endless Annals of New York

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Speaker 3: City edition.

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Speaker 1: That's right.

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Speaker 2: This is a pretty interesting episode, I think, And my

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Speaker 2: favorite part about it this was Dave ruse Are, one

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Speaker 2: of our writers, helped put this together.

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Speaker 1: And Dave is clearly annoyed.

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Speaker 2: Yeah about this whole thing, and I think it's hysterical

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Speaker 2: how many times he gets annoyed by the laziness of

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Speaker 2: the commission.

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Speaker 3: I have to say I agreed with Dave too. I

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Speaker 3: was annoyed by it as well. I think, Yeah, it's

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Speaker 3: always annoying when you see somebody like have a great

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Speaker 3: opportunity and just pee it away, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And we should also point out Dave got a

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Speaker 2: lot of his information from a really wonderful book called

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Speaker 2: City on a Grid colon How New York Became New

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Speaker 2: York by Gerald Keppel.

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Speaker 4: Not Gerald McCraney. Different Jerald, right, or is it Copple?

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Speaker 1: I think it's Kepel.

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Speaker 4: If it's Koe That's what I was going with, was Keppel.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm going to get this book though.

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Speaker 2: This is right at Malley because you know, I'm obsessed

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Speaker 2: with the history and the sort of formation of New

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Speaker 2: York City as we know it today.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, where'd you get the idea for this episode?

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Speaker 2: Just my constant desire to learn about Mannahatta and how

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Speaker 2: that became eventually Manhattan.

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Speaker 1: That we know and love. Okay, I'm just fascinated by it.

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Speaker 1: I love it. I love everything about it.

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Speaker 3: This is definitely a big chapter because what we're talking

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Speaker 3: about is the plan called the Commissioner's plan of eighteen

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Speaker 3: eleven that basically laid out Manhattan as we know and

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Speaker 3: understand and love it today. Everything north of Houston Street,

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Speaker 3: I should say.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And here's sort of a quick primer is Manhattan

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Speaker 2: above Houston is almost a perfect grid. Broadway kind of

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Speaker 2: screws everything up, but you know, great street, but it's

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Speaker 2: just broadways.

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Speaker 1: Like I'm not following any rules, so I'm going to

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Speaker 1: confuse people.

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Speaker 2: But aside from that, it's pretty very much a grid

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Speaker 2: of eleven numbered avenues that run north to south generally speaking.

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Speaker 2: Then you've got Lexington Park and Madison Avenues and then

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Speaker 2: two hundred and this was at the time numbered streets

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Speaker 2: running roughly east to west. And if you want to

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Speaker 2: get a little more granular than that, the southernmost street

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Speaker 2: in the East Villages East first, as you would imagine,

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Speaker 2: the northernmost is two hundred and twentieth Street as we

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Speaker 2: live in Breed today, and Enwood, well.

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Speaker 3: That's on the island technically in Manhattan. If you're talking

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Speaker 3: about the borough, it goes up to two hundred and

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Speaker 3: twenty seventh I.

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Speaker 2: Believe, right, And if you want to go through the Bronx,

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Speaker 2: you go all the way up to sixty three.

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Speaker 4: Man, that's crazy. You've got so many streets.

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Speaker 1: That's so many streets.

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Speaker 4: You've got it, two hundred and sixty three streets.

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Speaker 2: You've got an east and west signify, which says, and

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Speaker 2: this is sort of a dummies guy to getting around

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Speaker 2: New York for the first time. Too, if you broke

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Speaker 2: your smartphone, and you also don't want to walk around

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Speaker 2: just staring at your smartphone.

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Speaker 4: The whole time, No, you're going to miss a lot.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So try and get a little intuitive feel, because

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Speaker 2: it's really easy to get around if you know this stuff.

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Speaker 2: East and west will signify whether you're in east or

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Speaker 2: west of Fifth Avenue.

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Speaker 1: And then.

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Speaker 2: Here's a little trick too. Odd number street streets run west,

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Speaker 2: even numbers streets run east. So if you come out

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Speaker 2: of a subway and you and you know which way north, south, east,

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Speaker 2: and west are, then you will never do the thing

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Speaker 2: that I always do and walk in the wrong direction

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Speaker 2: trying to go up or down.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, because that's the thing, like, if you know what

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Speaker 3: direction you're facing, and you know where you're trying to

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Speaker 3: go and where you are right now, you can basically

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Speaker 3: make make your way anywhere in Manhattan above Houston Street.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and if you're like me and you have no

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Speaker 2: idea ever what's north, south, east and west? And you know,

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Speaker 2: I had an easy time in LA because La has

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Speaker 2: the sun, well they have, they have that, but they

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Speaker 2: also have geographical landmarks that make it super easy to

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Speaker 2: tell which way north and like the Hollywood Sign and

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Speaker 2: the hills and stuff like that.

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Speaker 4: Is that real? Is the Hollywood Sign real?

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Speaker 1: What do you mean?

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Speaker 4: Is it real?

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Speaker 1: Okay?

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Speaker 2: So that makes a lot easier In New York when

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Speaker 2: I come out there are all those big tall buildings.

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Speaker 1: I never know. I can never come out and say like, well,

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Speaker 1: that's north.

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Speaker 2: But if you know that stuff and you know that

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Speaker 2: the even numbered streets run east the odd ones run west,

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Speaker 2: then you can You won't walk in the wrong direction

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Speaker 2: for a block and then get there like I do

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Speaker 2: and go, oh, we should have gone the other way.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, because depending on what direction you're walking, if you're

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Speaker 3: walking north or south, going the wrong direction in a

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Speaker 3: block isn't that bad. But if you're going east or west,

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Speaker 3: it's real bad. We are very long blocks going east

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Speaker 3: to west. And that's all part of that Commissioner's plan

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Speaker 3: that was laid out in eighteen eleven. And on the

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Speaker 3: one hand, you know, we've kind of hit upon the

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Speaker 3: pros and the cons of it. That it's easy to

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Speaker 3: get around, which is really saying something because New York

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Speaker 3: is absolutely huge. But you could make it from one

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Speaker 3: end to the other without a map, just knowing that

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Speaker 3: it's on a grid and how the grid's laid out,

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Speaker 3: even roughly. But the problem is is it's on a grid,

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Speaker 3: and a grid is one of the least organic shapes around.

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Speaker 3: And because this grid stretches over almost all of Manhattan,

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Speaker 3: most of Manhattan, for sure, it's viewed by a lot

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Speaker 3: of people as kind of soulless and canyon esque because

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Speaker 3: you're just totally surrounded almost constantly by big, imposing buildings,

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Speaker 3: all at these right angles, which it feels like a

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Speaker 3: very built environment. And until Central Park came along, which

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Speaker 3: we did an episode on in what the eighteen fifties

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Speaker 3: or sixties, Yeah, like that was it.

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Speaker 4: That was New York. There was nothing but that built environment.

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Speaker 2: I got a few more of my things, Oh, okay,

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Speaker 2: let's have them. But Manhattan's about thirteen and a half

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Speaker 2: miles long. And then so this grid makes sense. But

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Speaker 2: then once you get north of fifty ninth Street, you

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Speaker 2: start to get like Atlanta does, and a road will

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Speaker 2: just change names out of nowhere. Atlanta's very famous for that,

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Speaker 2: and people get very confused here.

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Speaker 3: Hey, it's very confusing also because the road will will

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Speaker 3: change names, but one of the names, Peachtree, will still

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Speaker 3: be there, but it's a totally different street, right, and

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Speaker 3: it does not help things.

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Speaker 1: That's right.

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Speaker 2: So north of fifty ninth, avenues on the west side

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Speaker 2: change names, but avenues on the east side do not.

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Speaker 2: So eighth becomes Central Park, west ninth becomes Columbus Avenue,

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Speaker 2: tenth becomes Amsterdam Avenue, and eleventh becomes West End Avenue.

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Speaker 4: What about Avenue of the Americas?

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Speaker 1: Well, that's six right or is that seventh?

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Speaker 4: Oh?

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Speaker 2: Man, I thought I think it sixth. I think it's

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Speaker 2: might understanding. But that's really not a name change. That's

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Speaker 2: just that's something that tourists call it, right.

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Speaker 4: I remember you making fun of me when I call

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Speaker 4: it that? Did I really? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: That sounds about right.

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Speaker 4: It was really jarring.

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Speaker 2: And then to get people really confused between third and

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Speaker 2: fifth Avenue, there are three avenues instead of what you

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Speaker 2: would think would be one because Lexington Park and Madison

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Speaker 2: fall between those. Yeah, and then south of twenty third

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Speaker 2: you've got your lettered avenues ABC and D, which is

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Speaker 2: alphabet city.

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Speaker 4: So you wouldn't need to ever pull out a map.

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Speaker 3: You just have to stand in the middle of New

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Speaker 3: York and listen to the first like ten minutes of

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Speaker 3: this episode, and you'll find your way.

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Speaker 4: No problem.

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Speaker 2: All right, should we get into this? He said, people

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Speaker 2: don't like the grid. There are a lot of people.

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Speaker 2: I mean, what did Walt Whitman call it.

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Speaker 4: Ikey? I think no, I think he.

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Speaker 1: Said he called it one perpetual dead flat.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and streets cutting each other at right angles are

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Speaker 3: certainly the last things in the world consistent with beauty

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Speaker 3: of situation.

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Speaker 2: How about this one from Edith Wharton Rectangular New York.

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Speaker 2: This cramped horizontal gridiron of a town without towers, porticos, fountains,

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Speaker 2: or perspectives, hide bound in its deadly uniformity of mean ugliness.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I like hide bound. That's great.

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Speaker 1: That's a great word.

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Speaker 3: And mean ugliness definitely captures like a certain sense of

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Speaker 3: New York, depending on your mood or mindset, you know. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: there's one a guy named Peter Markhuse who's an architecture critic.

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Speaker 4: He said that the grid layout.

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Speaker 3: Of Manhattan was one of the worst city plans of

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Speaker 3: any major city in the developed countries of the world.

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Speaker 2: Right, but some people love it. Some people said it

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Speaker 2: was pragmatic. Some people said it really accommodated for the

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Speaker 2: one thing it needed to accommodate for, which was massive growth.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 2: Let me see here an architect named Raphael Vinoli, who's

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Speaker 2: I think a modern architect. Not modern, I just mean

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Speaker 2: current architect, right, but he may do modern.

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Speaker 1: Work, it knows.

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Speaker 2: He said the grid is the best manifestation of americangmatism,

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Speaker 2: pragmatism in the creation of urban form. And then in

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Speaker 2: nineteen seventy eight, a Dutch architect named Rim Kool has

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Speaker 2: said that the grid was the most courageous act of

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Speaker 2: prediction in Western civilization.

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Speaker 1: Clearly talking about the growth.

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Speaker 3: Yes, but courageous act. That's like architect talk right that

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Speaker 3: right there. So, but for the most part, from what

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Speaker 3: I understand, and definitely Dave says the same thing, most

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Speaker 3: New Yorkers, especially born and raised New Yorkers, are not

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Speaker 3: happy that that's how their city is laid out. That

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Speaker 3: there's a lot of room for improvement. Yeah, your experience too, sure.

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Speaker 2: I mean Central Park is great. But you know, as

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Speaker 2: we'll find out, they did not. They didn't didn't really

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Speaker 2: plan for green spaces, and New York has done their

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Speaker 2: best to kind of carve them out since then. But

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Speaker 2: you know, let's get into this commission.

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Speaker 4: Well, let's talk about grids first.

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Speaker 2: Do you want to Yeah, all right, do you want

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Speaker 2: to take a break and then talk about the grid story?

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Speaker 4: Yes?

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Speaker 3: So New York didn't invent the grid, as much as

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Speaker 3: they like to boast that they did, they did not.

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Speaker 3: In fact, a grid layout of a city goes back

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Speaker 3: to that Indus Valley civilization that for some reason keeps

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Speaker 3: popping up in the last like year or so. I

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Speaker 3: guess they're going to make a comeback or something like that,

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Speaker 3: but they've just been coming out all over the place.

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Speaker 4: But one of the what was it, Chuck, was it?

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Speaker 4: Did they invent the zipper?

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Speaker 1: I don't think it was a zipper?

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Speaker 4: What was indigo?

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Speaker 1: Uh?

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Speaker 4: There's been a number of them.

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Speaker 3: But anyway, about at least five thousand years ago, the

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Speaker 3: Indus Valley civilization was using the grid layout to create

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Speaker 3: Mohan Joe Daro, which was a seven and fifty acre

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Speaker 3: city on a grid. And then shortly after that the

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Speaker 3: Greek said, I really like this. In fact, there's a

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Speaker 3: Greek thinker and mathematician named Hippodamus who's known as the

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Speaker 3: father of city planning, and he was bully for grids too.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, if you have a grid, that's still they people

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Speaker 2: still call that the Hippodamian plan, which is kind of

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Speaker 2: great all these years later to still get recognized for

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Speaker 2: your grid work.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, if you're ever talking to somebody and they refer

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Speaker 3: to a grid as a Hippodamian plan, that person knows

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Speaker 3: what they're talking.

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Speaker 1: About, or listens to this show. It's one in the

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Speaker 1: same basically. And you were going to say that.

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Speaker 2: Let me see, the conquistadors of Spain, they kind of

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Speaker 2: had a habit of coming in conquering and then having

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Speaker 2: their template in place to create these grids as what

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Speaker 2: they call the law of the Indies, and they would

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Speaker 2: sort of just come in setup shop. You got a

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Speaker 2: town with a big central plaza and then a grid

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Speaker 2: surrounding that central plaza.

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Speaker 3: Right, and they use that for everything from Lima to

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Speaker 3: Los Angeles.

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Speaker 4: And this took me back in my mind to.

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Speaker 3: What was the name of that colonial town in Guatemala

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Speaker 3: that we visited.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I know what you mean.

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Speaker 3: It was wonderful, driving crazy, It really was wonderful. Is

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Speaker 3: one of the most beautiful towns I've ever been in.

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Speaker 3: But it had like a central plaza with a fountain.

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Speaker 3: It was a much smaller town. But now that I

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Speaker 3: think about, it was laid out on a grid too,

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Speaker 3: And it was part of that law of the Indies

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Speaker 3: that you were mentioning that it was just like, this

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Speaker 3: is how you build a town. And apparently the reason

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Speaker 3: that they they used that law, like in town after

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Speaker 3: town after town that they just basically took over and

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Speaker 3: said this is ours now it's Spain's is applying a

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Speaker 3: grid was kind of a metaphor for applying order and

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Speaker 3: civilization to a formerly disordered and wild indigenous.

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Speaker 4: You know town.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, which makes sense from a colonizer's perspective, but I'm

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Speaker 3: sure it sucked from the indigenous person's perspective.

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Speaker 1: Like everything else.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that's with this stupid right angle stuff.

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Speaker 2: So New York City comes along. Philadelphia had been laid

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Speaker 2: out in a grid by William Penn very deliberately, though,

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Speaker 2: and that grid was kind of roomy and spacious, because

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Speaker 2: William Penn did not like the congestion of London. But again,

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Speaker 2: Philly very much purposeful too.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Boy, DC has has kind of a crazy grid.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but once you understand it, it makes total sense.

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Speaker 3: Numbers and letters and directions. Yeah, I always, but it

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Speaker 3: takes a little more.

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Speaker 4: It takes more getting used to than New York too,

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Speaker 4: from my experience and what I.

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Speaker 1: Understand, Yeah, for sure.

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Speaker 2: So the Commissioner's Plan of eighteen eleven is really sort

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Speaker 2: of the demarcation point between what was first New York,

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Speaker 2: New Amsterdam and then what we now know is Manhattan.

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Speaker 2: Because anyone who's ever seen almost said Games of New York,

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Speaker 2: Gangs of New York knows that those were crazy days

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Speaker 2: down there in Lower Manhattan and things just sort of

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Speaker 2: sprouted up organically from the river upward as far as

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Speaker 2: the layout and the design, And you know, you can

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Speaker 2: still feel that when you go down to Lower Manhattan,

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Speaker 2: which is why I love the villages.

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Speaker 1: Now.

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Speaker 2: I think it's just I mean, I like the simplicity

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Speaker 2: of the grid, but I think what I love about

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Speaker 2: Lower Manhattan is how organic it feels.

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Speaker 3: It's a jumble, and I mean it's a jumble for

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Speaker 3: a reason, because those streets largely follow these original organic

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Speaker 3: paths that the Dutch settlers and earliest English settlers basically said, oh,

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Speaker 3: we need to get from the waterfront up to the

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Speaker 3: common lands or whatever. It's because here's a good path. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: and this path happens to meander around a salt marsh,

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Speaker 3: and we avoid having to go up a hill by going.

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Speaker 4: Around this way.

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Speaker 3: So it's kind of like meandering, and it's it's definitely

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Speaker 3: locked in time from those streets down there in Lower Manhattan.

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Speaker 3: I like it too, but it is very easy to

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Speaker 3: be like, are you sure we're going the right direction? Still,

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Speaker 3: it's very easy to get lost in those because it

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Speaker 3: isn't at all a grid.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I've spent enough time in Lower Manhattan now to where

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Speaker 2: I can landmarket. It's just familiar enough to me to

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Speaker 2: where I kind of know, like this block in that block, right,

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Speaker 2: so I know where I'm going. And you mentioned something important.

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Speaker 2: I don't think we've even kind of said that New

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Speaker 2: York was not all this just big, one big flat

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Speaker 2: slab thirteen miles long that we love today because you

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Speaker 2: can walk forever without ever getting out of breath, because

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Speaker 2: it's not Seattle, right, New York was swamp land and

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Speaker 2: it had hills and marshes and creeks and rocks, and

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Speaker 2: it was you know, it was kind of wild East

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Speaker 2: Coast territory.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And I mean the reason that those marshes and the

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Speaker 3: ponds and hills and stuff aren't there anymore is because

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Speaker 3: of this eighteen eleven commissioners Planet basically said tear it

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Speaker 3: all down, fill it all in, build this over it.

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Speaker 4: And they did. That's the most astounding thing is they

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Speaker 4: did that.

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Speaker 3: They they you know, as we'll see, they passed a

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Speaker 3: law that basically said, we're going to appoint a commission

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Speaker 3: of three people. They're going to come up with three people,

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Speaker 3: and whatever they come.

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Speaker 4: Up with is law.

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Speaker 3: It can't be challenged in court, and we're not going

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Speaker 3: to back it up and change it in any way.

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Speaker 3: And they really didn't. As bad as the plan was

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Speaker 3: in almost every way, they really stuck to it. But

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Speaker 3: the thing that struck me, I had no idea about

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Speaker 3: this was that's the eighteen eleven Commissioner's plan was just

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Speaker 3: a ripoff of another earlier surveying map that basically provided

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Speaker 3: the basis of this of the Commissioner's plan, not even

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Speaker 3: the basis of it. They were like, oh, we'll take

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Speaker 3: this as a starting point. They just said, we'll take this,

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Speaker 3: print it and put our.

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Speaker 4: Names on it. And that's ultimately what happened.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So, pre Revolutionary War, most of Manhattan was in that

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Speaker 2: lower third of the island, and we got into big

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Speaker 2: time debt because of the Revolutionary War. And so the

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00:19:54,040 --> 00:19:56,439
Speaker 2: city said in the seventeen eighties, all right, here's what

386
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Speaker 2: we got to do. We own tons of land, publicly land,

387
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Speaker 2: and all this marshy, kind of reedy, rocky pondy area.

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Speaker 2: It's not developed. Let's sell this stuff off and make

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Speaker 2: some dough. It's called the common Lands. And we need

390
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Speaker 2: somebody to get in there and just sort of, you know,

391
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Speaker 2: survey this and plot it all out so we know

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Speaker 2: exactly how to best sell this.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so they hired a guy named Casimir Theodore Girk.

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Speaker 3: That's how I'm going with this, Girk. Sure it's not

395
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Speaker 3: a cucumber, it's a girkin. Do you remember mister cabbagehead

396
00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:35,200
Speaker 3: from Kids in the Hall? Sure, well this had nothing

397
00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:39,920
Speaker 3: to do with that, right, right. So this, this surveyor

398
00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:43,399
Speaker 3: actually went through the common lands. Like, basically, what we

399
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Speaker 3: understand is all of Manhattan between Houston and North Harlem.

400
00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:54,320
Speaker 3: He just went across and broke it into five hundred

401
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Speaker 3: acre parcels. He had a sixty six foot chain on

402
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Speaker 3: his surveying poles, and so he said, well, I'll just

403
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Speaker 3: use that as the basic measurement for the widest streets.

404
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Speaker 4: Sixty six feet is what it's going to be.

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Speaker 1: I think he said, five hundred acre parcels. Weren't they

406
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Speaker 1: five acre?

407
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Speaker 3: Oh yes, I'm sorry, this is a little bit of

408
00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:16,640
Speaker 3: a difference. They were five acre parcels. So that's even

409
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Speaker 3: more work. That's one hundred times more work than what

410
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Speaker 3: I described.

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Speaker 1: That's right.

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Speaker 2: So he laid him out as a grid because he

413
00:21:24,560 --> 00:21:27,520
Speaker 2: wasn't like, this guy wasn't out to say here's how

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Speaker 2: Manhattan should be built.

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Speaker 3: Right right, this is the best way to promote the

416
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Speaker 3: future of growth in Manhattan.

417
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Speaker 1: No, that was not his charge.

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Speaker 2: His charge was like, hey, let's just to buy this

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00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:39,359
Speaker 2: stuff up and sell it. He had some interesting constraints.

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Speaker 2: They had to be five acres, they had to have

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Speaker 2: a central road that all of these could sort of

422
00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:50,080
Speaker 2: access like fairly easily. And then he had a survey chain.

423
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Speaker 2: It's crazy to think about. This was one of the

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00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:55,159
Speaker 2: things that informed what is modern New York. His survey

425
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Speaker 2: chain was sixty six feet. So he said, all right,

426
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Speaker 2: that's how why the road.

427
00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:03,400
Speaker 3: Is exactly So, I think that was like the widest road,

428
00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:06,679
Speaker 3: the central access road. He called that one Middle and

429
00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:09,639
Speaker 3: now I believe that's Fifth Avenue is Middle what was

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Speaker 3: originally Middle Road back in seventeen ninety six.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's adorable.

432
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Speaker 3: So he carved this up, this place up into into

433
00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:23,639
Speaker 3: these plots that are two hundred feet on the east

434
00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:26,960
Speaker 3: and west boundaries of it, so going up and down,

435
00:22:27,359 --> 00:22:29,800
Speaker 3: running north south, but if you're on the plot, it

436
00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:31,080
Speaker 3: would be on the east side of the plot, in

437
00:22:31,119 --> 00:22:33,480
Speaker 3: the west side of the plot. If that was not

438
00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:38,080
Speaker 3: confusing before it is now. Yeah, and then across or

439
00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:41,679
Speaker 3: the width was nine hundred and twenty feet and that

440
00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:43,760
Speaker 3: was the Those were the plots. He said, here you go,

441
00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:45,520
Speaker 3: this is a there's a bunch of them up there.

442
00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:47,960
Speaker 3: But I've carved up all of these common lands and

443
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Speaker 3: you can start selling them if you want.

444
00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:52,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, did you mention the names of the other two roads?

445
00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:52,719
Speaker 2: Oh?

446
00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:54,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, he said, I'm gonna I'm gonna put two more

447
00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:58,600
Speaker 3: in of these sixty six feet wide roads, and he

448
00:22:58,640 --> 00:22:59,959
Speaker 3: had some very clever names for them.

449
00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:00,600
Speaker 1: Yeah.

450
00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:03,480
Speaker 2: One was Middle, remember yeah. The one to the east

451
00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:06,800
Speaker 2: he named East, and the one to the west he

452
00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:07,720
Speaker 2: named west.

453
00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:11,199
Speaker 3: Yeah, which which makes sense if you're looking at it

454
00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:14,040
Speaker 3: from if you're on the Middle Road to the east

455
00:23:14,119 --> 00:23:15,960
Speaker 3: is the East road to the west of the West road.

456
00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:21,080
Speaker 3: But they run north south right, man, I hate directions.

457
00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:24,040
Speaker 2: And like you said that, it was fifth in the center,

458
00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:25,840
Speaker 2: so that's now fourth, fifth, and sixth.

459
00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:30,280
Speaker 4: A right or fourth Avenue, fifth Avenue.

460
00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:34,600
Speaker 1: And the avenue that are in America. You know, you're

461
00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:36,440
Speaker 1: really not supposed to say that. What a jerk. I

462
00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:37,359
Speaker 1: can't believe I said that.

463
00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:39,960
Speaker 3: You didn't say it like that, and you just you

464
00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:42,520
Speaker 3: just made sure that you waited until the crowd had

465
00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:44,679
Speaker 3: gathered and really laid into me.

466
00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:46,320
Speaker 1: I think I remember it was that our first trip

467
00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:46,840
Speaker 1: to New York.

468
00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:50,240
Speaker 4: Probably, man, probably.

469
00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:52,520
Speaker 1: That's funny. We've been back a couple of times since

470
00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:53,840
Speaker 1: then as a team. Huh.

471
00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:55,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, I know. I've got some really great memories of

472
00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:56,440
Speaker 4: New York.

473
00:23:56,520 --> 00:23:57,080
Speaker 1: I miss it.

474
00:23:57,880 --> 00:23:58,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's been a while.

475
00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:03,120
Speaker 1: Twenty two. We will see you again, Yes, we will.

476
00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:04,400
Speaker 4: New York. Don't you work at.

477
00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:06,280
Speaker 1: Least I hope. So there are no guarantees, right.

478
00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:10,840
Speaker 4: No, we will see New York again, all right, So do.

479
00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:12,520
Speaker 1: We take another break? I feel like there's still a lot.

480
00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:14,520
Speaker 4: There's still a lot. We should keep going for now,

481
00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:15,320
Speaker 4: I think, all right.

482
00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:18,679
Speaker 2: So in eighteen oh seven, this is when the New

483
00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:22,560
Speaker 2: York State legislature said, you know what we need to like,

484
00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:25,480
Speaker 2: we're growing here. It's clear that this southern tip of

485
00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:28,520
Speaker 2: Manhattan is just the beginning. So they passed a bill

486
00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:31,920
Speaker 2: that they described as an Act of Relative, an Act

487
00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:36,800
Speaker 2: relative to improvements touching the laying out of the streets

488
00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:38,679
Speaker 2: and roads in the City of New York and for

489
00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:40,080
Speaker 2: other purposes.

490
00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:40,840
Speaker 4: Right, which made sense.

491
00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:44,760
Speaker 3: But like I said, this law they decided to just

492
00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:50,240
Speaker 3: vest absolute authority into these three commissioners and said, we're

493
00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:53,840
Speaker 3: going to follow whatever they come up with, whatever they

494
00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:57,480
Speaker 3: seems to them most conducive to public good. We're just

495
00:24:57,520 --> 00:24:59,320
Speaker 3: going to take on its face that it is most

496
00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:01,920
Speaker 3: conducive to public good and just go with it.

497
00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:05,159
Speaker 2: That's crazy that it was just three people, and that

498
00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:09,080
Speaker 2: it wasn't like ten teams of three people submitting the

499
00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:11,480
Speaker 2: best designs that then would be gone over and voted

500
00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:12,040
Speaker 2: on like.

501
00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:15,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, took this. No one took it seriously weirdly enough,

502
00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:16,400
Speaker 3: very odd.

503
00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:17,439
Speaker 1: So who were these guys?

504
00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:20,360
Speaker 3: So there are three commissioners appointed. One was Governor Morris.

505
00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:23,760
Speaker 3: His first name was Governor. He was one of the

506
00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:26,400
Speaker 3: founding fathers. He wrote a lot of the Constitution, including

507
00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:30,520
Speaker 3: the preamble. Yeah, he had a peg leg. He lost

508
00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:34,639
Speaker 3: his leg in a carriage accident, although there's rumors that

509
00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:37,080
Speaker 3: it was something else. But he was known as a

510
00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:42,200
Speaker 3: Dave puts it, an energetic philanderer. But he was apparently

511
00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:47,560
Speaker 3: a very likable Benjamin Franklin esque kind of dude who

512
00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:52,040
Speaker 3: seemed to be fairly smart, but had really no understanding

513
00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:53,960
Speaker 3: of surveying as far as I can tell.

514
00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:54,600
Speaker 4: No.

515
00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:58,280
Speaker 2: Then his nephew in law, John Rutherford. He was a

516
00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:01,360
Speaker 2: landowner in New Jersey, in fact, I think the largest

517
00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:05,159
Speaker 2: landowner in New Jersey at the time. And by all

518
00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:08,159
Speaker 2: accounts it looks like this was pure nepotism. He was

519
00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:11,600
Speaker 2: late for meetings, he was not especially interested, even to

520
00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:13,440
Speaker 2: the annoyance of Governor Morris.

521
00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:16,800
Speaker 3: All the reasons to not exercise nepotism. This guy brought

522
00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:19,960
Speaker 3: to the table is one third of this commission, who's

523
00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:22,439
Speaker 3: figuring out how to lay out the plan for New

524
00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:23,040
Speaker 3: York City.

525
00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:23,760
Speaker 1: That's right.

526
00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:28,000
Speaker 2: And then the third guy, Simon Lebon No, no, no,

527
00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:31,680
Speaker 2: Simeon DeWitt, excuse me. And this guy actually knew what

528
00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:36,160
Speaker 2: he was doing. He was a really very respected, accomplished surveyor,

529
00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:41,080
Speaker 2: worked with George Washington, I think eventually became the which

530
00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:44,520
Speaker 2: I didn't even know was a thing, was the official

531
00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:48,040
Speaker 2: surveyor for the Continental Army, and then the surveyor General

532
00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:48,840
Speaker 2: of New York State.

533
00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:51,600
Speaker 3: Right, So he knew what he was doing, which makes

534
00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:55,720
Speaker 3: his role all the more shameful that he didn't say like, oh, well,

535
00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:58,320
Speaker 3: we really got to we gotta get cracking. It's been

536
00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:00,479
Speaker 3: three years and we've got four year to do.

537
00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:02,479
Speaker 2: Maybe he did, though, who knows, he might have been

538
00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:04,600
Speaker 2: completely run over by these other two jumps.

539
00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:06,480
Speaker 4: Oh and he just got shouted down. I guess.

540
00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:06,840
Speaker 1: I don't know.

541
00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:08,440
Speaker 4: Well, at the very least.

542
00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:11,320
Speaker 3: Governor Morris was also one of the founding members of

543
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:14,679
Speaker 3: the commission that created the Erie Canal, which was for

544
00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:17,280
Speaker 3: a very long time considered one of the greatest public

545
00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:20,359
Speaker 3: works projects in the history of America, certainly in the

546
00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:24,520
Speaker 3: history of New York State, and that kind of energy

547
00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:27,679
Speaker 3: and imagination and drive just did not make it to

548
00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:30,840
Speaker 3: this eighteen eleven Commission for the Planning of New York.

549
00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:33,879
Speaker 2: I wonder if he, I mean this sounds cynical, but

550
00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:36,600
Speaker 2: I wonder if he literally was, like, man, that Erie

551
00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:40,240
Speaker 2: Canal project really was a big bummer in how hard

552
00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:42,680
Speaker 2: we had to work, and let's just kind of, Hey,

553
00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:44,960
Speaker 2: look at these maps that this guy drew to sell

554
00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:45,760
Speaker 2: off New York.

555
00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:47,200
Speaker 1: Let's just use those.

556
00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:48,000
Speaker 4: Yeah.

557
00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:49,920
Speaker 3: So that's I mean, that's kind of what they did.

558
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:54,320
Speaker 3: Like they had four years or they took four years.

559
00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:56,680
Speaker 3: I'm not sure how long they had, but they took

560
00:27:56,720 --> 00:28:00,840
Speaker 3: four years from eighteen oh seven to eighteen eleven to

561
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:06,000
Speaker 3: turn in their report. Four years of meeting sporadically true,

562
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:09,160
Speaker 3: but they still met. Over this four year period, they

563
00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:13,160
Speaker 3: came up within eleven page report to lay out these

564
00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:18,240
Speaker 3: thirteen miles in length, not even square miles of Manhattan,

565
00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:20,359
Speaker 3: these common lands, all the way from House and Street

566
00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:24,080
Speaker 3: up to North Harlem. They came up with eleven pages

567
00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:27,400
Speaker 3: to explain their map, and their map really made sense

568
00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:31,640
Speaker 3: as a grid. But again they stole the grid from

569
00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:36,200
Speaker 3: Kashmir Gork. I can't remember what I called them before, Girk.

570
00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:41,040
Speaker 3: I'm going with Gork now, okay, sure, but they didn't

571
00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:42,840
Speaker 3: give them any credit for it whatsoever.

572
00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:46,000
Speaker 2: No, I mean, I don't want to go so far

573
00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:50,160
Speaker 2: as to call it a tracing project. But you know,

574
00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:53,920
Speaker 2: they borrowed pretty heavily. Like the streets and the avenues

575
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:57,760
Speaker 2: were basically the exact same when you know, earlier you

576
00:28:57,800 --> 00:28:59,760
Speaker 2: mentioned the blocks were two hundred by nine hundred and

577
00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:03,640
Speaker 2: twenty feet in Girk from Kirk, right, Yeah, this had

578
00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:06,360
Speaker 2: the exact same way out and that was no accident.

579
00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:09,280
Speaker 3: No, and they were in virtually the same spot. They

580
00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:11,720
Speaker 3: did do some stuff, you know, they didn't just take

581
00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:13,880
Speaker 3: his map like you were saying and trace it and

582
00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:16,880
Speaker 3: call it their own. They made some changes to it.

583
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:21,360
Speaker 3: They created instead of the three middle, east and West,

584
00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:26,480
Speaker 3: they created twelve avenues running north south and not true

585
00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:29,520
Speaker 3: north south, but just you know, for our purposes north

586
00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:31,880
Speaker 3: and south. And then they created one hundred and fifty

587
00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:34,520
Speaker 3: five numbered streets.

588
00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:36,840
Speaker 2: What they added this stuff, but it's sort of just

589
00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:39,520
Speaker 2: copy paste kind of.

590
00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:42,360
Speaker 3: But the big thing is so adding the twelve numbered

591
00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:47,239
Speaker 3: avenues was definite change to the Girk's. Gorks never going

592
00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:50,400
Speaker 3: to say the same thing twice. But was it Yeah,

593
00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:52,560
Speaker 3: because he only had the three, I know.

594
00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:55,040
Speaker 2: But he just had the three and they were like, well,

595
00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:56,720
Speaker 2: we need more, so let's just do what he did

596
00:29:56,760 --> 00:29:57,520
Speaker 2: all over the place.

597
00:29:57,720 --> 00:29:59,520
Speaker 3: Sure, sure, okay, all right, yeah, you know what I'm saying,

598
00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:01,760
Speaker 3: that's fair. Yeah, I'm they're these guys are definitely not

599
00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:03,760
Speaker 3: a hill I'm willing to die on, So say what

600
00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:07,160
Speaker 3: you will about I think they're lazy schmos too, all right.

601
00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:09,960
Speaker 4: And then they took these they took these cross.

602
00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:13,080
Speaker 3: Streets that are formed by the surveying of these blocks

603
00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:16,760
Speaker 3: and turn them into numbered streets. So avenues running north south,

604
00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:18,680
Speaker 3: they were the big ones, one hundred and fifty five

605
00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:24,400
Speaker 3: numbered streets running east to west. They they widened the avenues.

606
00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:25,840
Speaker 3: They said they're going to be one hundred feet.

607
00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:27,720
Speaker 4: Why. I guess they had a longer survey.

608
00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:31,480
Speaker 3: In the bigger chain, right, And then they widened some

609
00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:35,760
Speaker 3: of the cross streets. I guess ease congestion. I think

610
00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:38,960
Speaker 3: they widened fifteen of them total.

611
00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:42,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, they I think the other streets were sixty feet,

612
00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:48,040
Speaker 2: and then fifteen of them went to one hundred at fourteenth, twenty, third, thirty, fourth, forty, second,

613
00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:50,480
Speaker 2: fifty seven to seventy two, seventy nine, eighty six, ninety six,

614
00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:53,360
Speaker 2: one o six, one sixteen, one twenty fifth, one thirty fifth,

615
00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:55,240
Speaker 2: one forty fifth, and one fifty fifth.

616
00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:59,680
Speaker 1: Right, but why why those particular ones?

617
00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:01,920
Speaker 3: It doesn't seem to be much rhyme or reason because

618
00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:04,440
Speaker 3: if you notice, they didn't really hit their stride into

619
00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:10,520
Speaker 3: keeping them separated by ten cross streets until eighty sixth Street. Yeah,

620
00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:13,640
Speaker 3: so there's not really much rhyme or reason there.

621
00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:15,600
Speaker 1: When they only did that for three of them.

622
00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:17,320
Speaker 4: Right of them, and then the.

623
00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:23,560
Speaker 3: Streets that they did choose to widen didn't necessarily make

624
00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:25,880
Speaker 3: much sense one way or the other. Like, for example,

625
00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:30,240
Speaker 3: seventy first Street was already fairly wide. It was definitely

626
00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:33,360
Speaker 3: wider than seventy second Street, but they decided to make

627
00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:37,960
Speaker 3: seventy second Street the widened the widen cross street rather

628
00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:41,560
Speaker 3: than seventy first, And apparently no one knows why. The

629
00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:44,440
Speaker 3: closest thing I could find is there's some record in

630
00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:48,800
Speaker 3: eighteen fifty seven of somebody having to remove a big

631
00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:52,840
Speaker 3: rock from seventy second Street to widen it. But that

632
00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:55,320
Speaker 3: doesn't even explain it. It makes sense because there was a

633
00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:57,640
Speaker 3: bunch of houses that had to be torn down to

634
00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:01,680
Speaker 3: make seventy second Street widen rather than seventy first, which

635
00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:02,680
Speaker 3: was already.

636
00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:05,560
Speaker 1: Wide and had almost no houses exactly.

637
00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:09,760
Speaker 3: So these guys were just when you start to compile

638
00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:13,200
Speaker 3: all the evidence, we'll kind of pay more out. It

639
00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:17,040
Speaker 3: really seems like these guys didn't even go to the

640
00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:20,680
Speaker 3: common lands, that maybe they were just working from Girk's map,

641
00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:23,240
Speaker 3: or if they did go to the common Lands, they

642
00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:26,280
Speaker 3: took zero notes or paid zero attention, and that all

643
00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:29,880
Speaker 3: of this came from a place of laziness and ignorance,

644
00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:33,040
Speaker 3: like not knowing that seventy second was wider than seventy

645
00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:37,200
Speaker 3: first or vice versa would explain that decision more than

646
00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:37,920
Speaker 3: anything else.

647
00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:41,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, if the another example is if you've ever been

648
00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:44,040
Speaker 2: on the West Side and you feel like, man, these

649
00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:47,600
Speaker 2: avenues are big, it's because they are. The avenues on

650
00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:51,320
Speaker 2: the east side are spaced at six hundred and fifty

651
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:54,840
Speaker 2: and six hundred and ten feet apart or six hundred

652
00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:56,800
Speaker 2: and ten feet apart, and on the west they are

653
00:32:56,840 --> 00:32:59,800
Speaker 2: all eight hundred feet apart for no reason.

654
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:00,720
Speaker 4: Reason at all.

655
00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:04,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, it doesn't make any sense. Again, it just it

656
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:07,680
Speaker 3: seems like they just phone this in and what's even

657
00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:11,600
Speaker 3: more astounding is that New York's founding father said, Okay,

658
00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:14,840
Speaker 3: we're going to do exactly what you say without questioning it.

659
00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:17,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, and actually we kind of do have the reason

660
00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:20,560
Speaker 2: if you read closely, and we'll tell you the secret reason.

661
00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:43,400
Speaker 1: Right after this was that for a cliffhanger, it was great.

662
00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:46,040
Speaker 4: I'm still a little tense waiting for you to pay

663
00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:46,440
Speaker 4: it all.

664
00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:49,240
Speaker 2: All right, here's the real reason everyone, and it all

665
00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:54,080
Speaker 2: lies in this quote that is pulled from their commission report.

666
00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:58,080
Speaker 2: If it should be asked, why was the present plan

667
00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:01,360
Speaker 2: adopted in preference to any other? The answer is because

668
00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:06,320
Speaker 2: after taking all circumstances into consideration, it appeared to be

669
00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:11,440
Speaker 2: the best or in other more proper terms, attended with

670
00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:13,000
Speaker 2: the least inconvenience.

671
00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:16,760
Speaker 4: And I think that's the magic phrase right there.

672
00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:20,600
Speaker 2: That last phrase attended with the least inconvenience. And Dave

673
00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:27,440
Speaker 2: rightfully says, what is obvious which is inconvenient for the

674
00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:28,359
Speaker 2: three commissioners.

675
00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:35,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, because their plan was extraordinarily inconvenient for basically everyone involved.

676
00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:38,160
Speaker 3: Like there was from the people who were in charge

677
00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:42,200
Speaker 3: of like making this this like building this grid or

678
00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:45,440
Speaker 3: this plan, to the people who were already living in

679
00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:50,560
Speaker 3: places that were torn down. Yeah, forty percent of places

680
00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:54,200
Speaker 3: were torn down to adhere to this plan, this eighteen

681
00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:59,000
Speaker 3: to eleven commission plan. Yeah, that's crazy. And again when

682
00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:01,200
Speaker 3: you start to add all stuff up, it does seem

683
00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:04,360
Speaker 3: like the least inconvenient for the three commissioners.

684
00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:04,719
Speaker 1: Yeah.

685
00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:07,200
Speaker 3: And the fact that if that is true and they

686
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:10,640
Speaker 3: just included that is kind of like a cheeky little joke.

687
00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:16,680
Speaker 3: You know, these guys are They're not necessarily burning in hell,

688
00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:19,120
Speaker 3: but they're probably in purgatory somewhere.

689
00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:20,799
Speaker 1: I also have a lot of respect for that kind

690
00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:21,960
Speaker 1: of laziness at times, So.

691
00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:25,720
Speaker 4: The kind that makes fun of itself in public documents, Well.

692
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:30,440
Speaker 2: Just is that upfront about the fact, Like, you know what,

693
00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:32,319
Speaker 2: I didn't really want to work too hard on this, so.

694
00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:34,840
Speaker 1: Here's here it is, right.

695
00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:38,960
Speaker 2: So, yeah, it was very inconvenient for everyone but them.

696
00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:44,560
Speaker 2: They did this because of the growth population they expected,

697
00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:46,439
Speaker 2: so it sort of made sense.

698
00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:48,000
Speaker 1: But they even got that wrong.

699
00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:50,719
Speaker 2: They were wrong by about half of what they thought

700
00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:51,799
Speaker 2: the growth rate was going to be.

701
00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:55,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's the thing is they were saying, like, Okay,

702
00:35:55,320 --> 00:36:01,040
Speaker 3: this is this affords enough population growth, afford a population

703
00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:04,120
Speaker 3: greater than any other this side of China.

704
00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:06,120
Speaker 4: Is how they put it.

705
00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:09,520
Speaker 3: So they clearly did have at least growth on their mind,

706
00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:12,719
Speaker 3: and that if you build on a grid, it affords

707
00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:13,640
Speaker 3: for the most growth.

708
00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:15,319
Speaker 4: It's the easiest to build on.

709
00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:19,840
Speaker 3: Right angled structures are the easiest to build and settle

710
00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:23,920
Speaker 3: and live in. But the thing is is part of

711
00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:27,040
Speaker 3: that law, that eighteen oh seven law that established the commission,

712
00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:31,680
Speaker 3: charged them with creating public squares, although it said in

713
00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:35,440
Speaker 3: size and form and all that in number that the

714
00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:39,480
Speaker 3: Commissioners see fit. Unfortunately, the Commissioners didn't see fit to

715
00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:44,680
Speaker 3: make almost any kind of public gathering places, especially green

716
00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:49,239
Speaker 3: spaces for mental health, I guess is what you would

717
00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:49,560
Speaker 3: call it.

718
00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:53,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, And the reasoning is kind of kind of bs. Actually,

719
00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:56,400
Speaker 2: I'm not sure which one it was. I guess it

720
00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:59,320
Speaker 2: was Morris that I'm not going to read the whole quote,

721
00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:02,440
Speaker 2: but he basically we said, hey, listen, we don't have

722
00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:05,960
Speaker 2: the sin River or the Thames winding through the middle

723
00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:09,319
Speaker 2: of town. But what we do have are these two

724
00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:13,480
Speaker 2: wonderful rivers that just kind of hug Manhattan. And that's

725
00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:16,400
Speaker 2: enough because everyone's just going to go hang out the

726
00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:19,680
Speaker 2: river all the time, right, because it's beautiful and gorgeous

727
00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:23,120
Speaker 2: and you can swim in it, and the East River

728
00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:25,640
Speaker 2: and the Hudson River will forever be our green space.

729
00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:29,400
Speaker 3: Basically, Yeah, basically that was the city had enough. It

730
00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:31,560
Speaker 3: didn't need green spaces because of the East and the

731
00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:37,440
Speaker 3: Hudson rivers, and like in about forty years people were like, no,

732
00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:39,360
Speaker 3: we do we need to build Central Park.

733
00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:42,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, which was a savior because I think it says

734
00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:46,640
Speaker 2: here on their original plan, only five percent of the

735
00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:51,000
Speaker 2: grid was public green space, and two hundred and forty

736
00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:53,760
Speaker 2: of those four hundred acres was a parade ground.

737
00:37:54,239 --> 00:37:58,480
Speaker 3: Yes, which I didn't know exactly where that was, so you.

738
00:37:57,640 --> 00:38:01,520
Speaker 2: No, I'm not sure, I don't know. I mean, you know,

739
00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:04,360
Speaker 2: there's Washington Square Park, there's some cool kind of central

740
00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:08,600
Speaker 2: promenades and things like that, and then these you know,

741
00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:12,120
Speaker 2: New York's famous for these tiny little slivers of park

742
00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:15,520
Speaker 2: kind of all over the place, but they're small.

743
00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:20,240
Speaker 3: They are very small, especially compared to the surrounding areas.

744
00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:21,280
Speaker 4: For sure, in the buildings.

745
00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:22,839
Speaker 1: That's why the highline was such a big deal.

746
00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:25,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was a big deal. And I remember not

747
00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:29,479
Speaker 3: quite grasping why. I know, I definitely do, because there's

748
00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:32,760
Speaker 3: just people need that. People need green space, they need nature,

749
00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:35,719
Speaker 3: they need to be like outside of a built environment,

750
00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:38,400
Speaker 3: even if it's a built natural environment, you know what

751
00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:38,759
Speaker 3: I mean.

752
00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:42,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, And Central Park is amazing and we love it,

753
00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:45,480
Speaker 2: but that's a long way if you're in southern Manhattan

754
00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:46,520
Speaker 2: to get up there.

755
00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:47,799
Speaker 4: Right right.

756
00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:50,120
Speaker 3: But basically, these guys said, you don't need it, go

757
00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:51,879
Speaker 3: hang out at the hud center of the East River.

758
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:53,520
Speaker 1: It's so wonderful and lovely.

759
00:38:54,200 --> 00:38:57,280
Speaker 3: So there were a lot of people, like we said,

760
00:38:57,480 --> 00:39:01,200
Speaker 3: that were really unhappy with this. This was a huge

761
00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:05,480
Speaker 3: exercise of eminent domain. There were a lot of people

762
00:39:05,520 --> 00:39:10,759
Speaker 3: on these lands already. Remember Seneca Village that was destroyed

763
00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:15,800
Speaker 3: to create Central Park. They managed to survive the eighteen

764
00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:20,000
Speaker 3: eleven commission. I can't remember how long that was around,

765
00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:22,319
Speaker 3: but I want to say Seneca Village was around for

766
00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:24,840
Speaker 3: a good fifty years before it was leveled in the

767
00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:27,920
Speaker 3: eighteen fifties, so it would have been around on the

768
00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:31,600
Speaker 3: common lands during this time. But there were, like you said,

769
00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:36,719
Speaker 3: about thirty nine or forty percent of homeowners or established

770
00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:39,520
Speaker 3: buildings had to be torn down. They filled in ponds,

771
00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:44,120
Speaker 3: they filled in salt marshes, they completely altered the ecosystem

772
00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:47,040
Speaker 3: of stuff that could have been built around or incorporated

773
00:39:47,040 --> 00:39:49,359
Speaker 3: had they stopped and thought about how to do that.

774
00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:53,239
Speaker 3: They just leveled everything and built a grid over it.

775
00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:55,520
Speaker 3: And so a lot of people were really really unhappy

776
00:39:55,560 --> 00:39:59,960
Speaker 3: about us, and they were particularly unhappy that the city

777
00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:03,520
Speaker 3: the administration was just sticking to this no matter what.

778
00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:05,560
Speaker 3: And there were a lot of lawsuits in all of them,

779
00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:07,600
Speaker 3: from what I understand, were unsuccessful.

780
00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:10,239
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, for about sixty years, there were tons of

781
00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:13,560
Speaker 2: lawsuits going on. And I know you said it was

782
00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:18,000
Speaker 2: a big eminent Domain Act, but it was I think

783
00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:21,680
Speaker 2: still the largest act of eminent domain in New York City. Yeah,

784
00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:25,880
Speaker 2: and that includes Central Park and the how they get

785
00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:27,520
Speaker 2: their water, which was another good episode.

786
00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:30,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, because I mean Central Park was huge, but it's

787
00:40:30,760 --> 00:40:33,080
Speaker 3: just a small sliver of this larger area.

788
00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:34,400
Speaker 1: Yeah.

789
00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:39,520
Speaker 2: This one quote from landowner Clement Clark Moore. He published

790
00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:43,880
Speaker 2: a pamphlet about the Tyrannical Commissioner's plan, and in it

791
00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:47,799
Speaker 2: it says this nothing is to be left unmolested, which

792
00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:51,400
Speaker 2: does not coincide with the street Commissioner's plummet and level.

793
00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:53,840
Speaker 2: These are men who would have cut down the Seven

794
00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:54,960
Speaker 2: Hills of Rome.

795
00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:59,800
Speaker 1: Burn big time yeap, So it didn't matter, though.

796
00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:01,439
Speaker 4: It really didn't matter.

797
00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:05,080
Speaker 3: They just went ahead with it blindly and thoughtlessly and

798
00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:09,440
Speaker 3: did and again like it did accommodate growth, although they

799
00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:12,239
Speaker 3: underestimated the growth. But it took a little while for

800
00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:17,040
Speaker 3: this stuff to fill up. This plan was delivered in

801
00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:20,239
Speaker 3: eighteen eleven, but it wasn't until eighteen seventy five that

802
00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:22,839
Speaker 3: enough people had started to move in that there were

803
00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:27,120
Speaker 3: more New Yorkers living above fourteenth Street than there were

804
00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:30,840
Speaker 3: living below it. Because remember, I mean, Lower Manhattan was

805
00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:33,759
Speaker 3: where it all began, so that I mean it took

806
00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:35,919
Speaker 3: a little while to fill in, and it didn't even

807
00:41:35,960 --> 00:41:40,520
Speaker 3: necessarily fill in uniformly. By that same year, in eighteen

808
00:41:40,560 --> 00:41:44,399
Speaker 3: seventy five, there were still forty thousand vacant lots left

809
00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:47,319
Speaker 3: in this grid plan, and that was like about half

810
00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:48,000
Speaker 3: of the space.

811
00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:50,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that fact. That's good. Dave has some

812
00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:52,040
Speaker 1: nice facts here. At the end.

813
00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:56,480
Speaker 2: Eighteen sixty nine, the very first apartment build in New

814
00:41:56,560 --> 00:42:02,719
Speaker 2: York was built, called the Stivesant and they called them

815
00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:04,919
Speaker 2: I don't even think they called them apartments at the time.

816
00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:06,840
Speaker 2: It was called a French flat or a French house.

817
00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:10,840
Speaker 2: But prior to that it was you know, tenement houses

818
00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:14,760
Speaker 2: and houses, and so the Stuve is Ant is built

819
00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:18,920
Speaker 2: and everyone thinks it's silly that anyone would want to

820
00:42:19,080 --> 00:42:21,880
Speaker 2: live in the same building as other people, and they

821
00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:25,759
Speaker 2: called it stuives Ant's folly, but that it was at

822
00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:28,760
Speaker 2: one hundred and forty two East eighteenth between Irving Place

823
00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:33,480
Speaker 2: and Third and it was a huge hit, Like people

824
00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:36,960
Speaker 2: made fun of it in the newspapers, but people signed

825
00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:38,600
Speaker 2: up to live there almost immediately.

826
00:42:38,600 --> 00:42:39,279
Speaker 1: It filled up.

827
00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:44,319
Speaker 2: It was demoed and replaced in nineteen sixty, so this

828
00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:47,080
Speaker 2: is eighteen sixty nine. Very it didn't take long though.

829
00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:49,879
Speaker 2: In eighteen eighty four the Dakota was built, which still

830
00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:53,000
Speaker 2: stands today. So apartment buildings kind of came into fashion,

831
00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:56,320
Speaker 2: I think probably due just stuive's Ant's folly.

832
00:42:57,080 --> 00:42:59,400
Speaker 3: Yeah I will yeah, I mean it went over so

833
00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:02,000
Speaker 3: well and so quickly that it really opened the way for.

834
00:43:01,960 --> 00:43:03,080
Speaker 4: More and more to be built.

835
00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:03,799
Speaker 1: Pretty cool.

836
00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:08,520
Speaker 3: So one thing that people point to is this Commissioner's

837
00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:11,880
Speaker 3: plan of eighteen to eleven is just like that same

838
00:43:12,040 --> 00:43:17,719
Speaker 3: principle or the same significance that the Spanish coming in

839
00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:23,319
Speaker 3: and imposing a grid over an indigenous settlement was somehow

840
00:43:23,600 --> 00:43:26,480
Speaker 3: taming the wild or the organic.

841
00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:29,320
Speaker 4: Or something like that. There's a This is the turning

842
00:43:29,360 --> 00:43:37,160
Speaker 4: point between kind of unplanned, organic, much more harmonious, naturally

843
00:43:37,600 --> 00:43:42,759
Speaker 4: New York and the planned modern New York that we

844
00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:43,800
Speaker 4: know and love today.

845
00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:46,120
Speaker 3: This is where it went from one to the other,

846
00:43:46,960 --> 00:43:49,919
Speaker 3: almost like flipping a switch. And granted, for it took

847
00:43:49,960 --> 00:43:55,920
Speaker 3: decades and decades to realize this plan, but when it

848
00:43:55,960 --> 00:43:58,600
Speaker 3: was delivered and when it was adopted, that was that

849
00:43:58,719 --> 00:44:02,400
Speaker 3: was it. That change happened and the transition began.

850
00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:03,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's pretty amazing.

851
00:44:04,680 --> 00:44:05,439
Speaker 4: I think so too.

852
00:44:05,880 --> 00:44:07,239
Speaker 1: What else is there for New York?

853
00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:10,480
Speaker 2: I mean, we figure we got water, we got the

854
00:44:10,520 --> 00:44:13,160
Speaker 2: subways covered, We've got Central Park, We've got this.

855
00:44:13,360 --> 00:44:16,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, let's see, there.

856
00:44:16,040 --> 00:44:17,880
Speaker 2: Can't be much else as far as just the bones

857
00:44:17,880 --> 00:44:19,279
Speaker 2: of Oh I know what I want to do is

858
00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:22,640
Speaker 2: maybe how that how the mail and the trash work?

859
00:44:24,719 --> 00:44:27,759
Speaker 4: Okay, all right, yeah, we did the rockets once even too.

860
00:44:27,880 --> 00:44:28,520
Speaker 1: Oh that's right.

861
00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:31,280
Speaker 4: I mean we've done a lot of New York topics,

862
00:44:31,600 --> 00:44:32,960
Speaker 4: it's true.

863
00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:35,239
Speaker 2: Or maybe we should move to a different city. Let's

864
00:44:35,239 --> 00:44:36,440
Speaker 2: start talking about des Moines.

865
00:44:37,120 --> 00:44:42,839
Speaker 4: Holy cow, dude, it almost simultaneously came out of my mouth.

866
00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:43,400
Speaker 1: Des moines.

867
00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:47,960
Speaker 4: Yes, it's so weird. It is weird. It's in the zeitgeist.

868
00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:51,120
Speaker 4: Apparently you got anything else?

869
00:44:51,120 --> 00:44:51,919
Speaker 1: I got nothing else.

870
00:44:52,120 --> 00:44:54,120
Speaker 3: Okay, Well, if you want to know more about New

871
00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:58,600
Speaker 3: York to start reading and then eventually travel there. They'll

872
00:44:58,600 --> 00:45:01,440
Speaker 3: give you the all clear when they're And since I

873
00:45:01,480 --> 00:45:02,959
Speaker 3: said that, it's time for listener mail.

874
00:45:06,320 --> 00:45:10,560
Speaker 2: Hey guys, my sixteen year old son Owen is probs

875
00:45:10,719 --> 00:45:14,640
Speaker 2: your biggest fan for real. He also has narcolepsy. I

876
00:45:14,680 --> 00:45:18,040
Speaker 2: appreciate you taking on this topic and bringing some understanding

877
00:45:18,320 --> 00:45:20,440
Speaker 2: of it to the masses. He was diagnosing his ten

878
00:45:20,960 --> 00:45:23,400
Speaker 2: and it affects every single aspect of his life. I

879
00:45:23,520 --> 00:45:25,640
Speaker 2: think it has made him wise beyond his years personally

880
00:45:25,719 --> 00:45:28,800
Speaker 2: and compassionate to other people with invisible struggles.

881
00:45:28,800 --> 00:45:30,440
Speaker 1: But it still sucks.

882
00:45:31,040 --> 00:45:33,160
Speaker 2: If you ever want to read or hear first hand

883
00:45:33,160 --> 00:45:38,480
Speaker 2: accounts from people with narcolepsy, check out Julie flygare That

884
00:45:38,600 --> 00:45:41,560
Speaker 2: is f l y g a r E or flygare A.

885
00:45:41,840 --> 00:45:43,319
Speaker 1: I'm not sure how would you say that?

886
00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:47,879
Speaker 4: Oh? I like the one with flavor of the second one.

887
00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:51,120
Speaker 2: Who is doing all kinds of advocacy for people with narcolepsy,

888
00:45:51,120 --> 00:45:55,720
Speaker 2: including a scholarship foundation. She founded projects Sleep and Voices

889
00:45:55,760 --> 00:45:58,040
Speaker 2: of Narcolepsy. She also read a great book about her

890
00:45:58,040 --> 00:46:02,280
Speaker 2: experiences with being diagnosed during law school called Wide Awake

891
00:46:02,360 --> 00:46:05,759
Speaker 2: and Dreaming. When Owen received his diagnosis, I reached out

892
00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:07,920
Speaker 2: to her for help. She sent own a care package

893
00:46:07,960 --> 00:46:11,719
Speaker 2: with a book, a T shirt, wristbands, a very kind card, etc.

894
00:46:12,040 --> 00:46:13,680
Speaker 1: To let him know that he's not alone. That is

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00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:14,960
Speaker 1: very sweet, it is.

896
00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:17,080
Speaker 2: I think she deserves an award for the work she's

897
00:46:17,120 --> 00:46:18,879
Speaker 2: doing anyway, A great resource for sure.

898
00:46:19,160 --> 00:46:22,239
Speaker 1: Thanks for the work that you do. I mean, could

899
00:46:22,280 --> 00:46:22,960
Speaker 1: we get an award?

900
00:46:24,480 --> 00:46:26,240
Speaker 4: You know we've won a Webby before.

901
00:46:26,280 --> 00:46:28,319
Speaker 1: I think, well that's true. Yeah.

902
00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:31,319
Speaker 2: Sometimes it's fun and entertaining, but sometimes and often it's

903
00:46:31,320 --> 00:46:34,560
Speaker 2: really important and educational as well. Sincerely, the mom of

904
00:46:34,600 --> 00:46:36,520
Speaker 2: your biggest fan. And that is from Brooke.

905
00:46:37,200 --> 00:46:39,839
Speaker 3: Thanks Brooke, and thanks Owen for listening. It's really good

906
00:46:39,840 --> 00:46:43,279
Speaker 3: to hear from you, guys. And I feel like we

907
00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:47,120
Speaker 3: should send Owen something too. Sure, let's do it, Chuck, we'll.

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00:46:46,960 --> 00:46:48,920
Speaker 4: Figure it out, all right. We can't be shown up

909
00:46:48,920 --> 00:46:50,320
Speaker 4: by this flygawary person.

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00:46:50,560 --> 00:46:54,080
Speaker 1: No no, no, send us your physical address and we'll

911
00:46:54,120 --> 00:46:54,560
Speaker 1: mail you.

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00:46:54,560 --> 00:46:58,360
Speaker 3: Something that's right and in the meantime, thanks for listening,

913
00:46:58,680 --> 00:47:01,920
Speaker 3: and thanks for being a fan, and thank you for listening,

914
00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:03,640
Speaker 3: and thank you for being a fan. Tune and if

915
00:47:03,640 --> 00:47:05,359
Speaker 3: you want to get in touch with us, like Brook did,

916
00:47:05,840 --> 00:47:08,360
Speaker 3: you can send us an email, wrap it up, spanking

917
00:47:08,440 --> 00:47:10,640
Speaker 3: on the bottom, and send it off to Stuff Podcasts

918
00:47:10,719 --> 00:47:14,160
Speaker 3: at iHeartRadio dot com.

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00:47:15,960 --> 00:47:18,600
Speaker 1: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio.

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00:47:18,760 --> 00:47:21,960
Speaker 2: For more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

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00:47:22,120 --> 00:47:25,040
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.