1
00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:06,120
Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet, as a production

2
00:00:06,160 --> 00:00:13,680
Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Todd, and this

3
00:00:13,760 --> 00:00:14,800
Speaker 1: is there Are No Girls.

4
00:00:14,520 --> 00:00:15,120
Speaker 2: On the Internet.

5
00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:21,800
Speaker 1: Happy New Year. So we were meant to air a

6
00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:25,400
Speaker 1: new newscast the first of twenty twenty four, but instead

7
00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:28,479
Speaker 1: we have to talk about this clotting gay thing at Harvard.

8
00:00:28,680 --> 00:00:32,360
Speaker 1: So this is kind of an unplanned emergency episode. We

9
00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:34,400
Speaker 1: weren't even actually going to do it. But then Mike,

10
00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:36,800
Speaker 1: you and I started talking and it was clear that

11
00:00:37,280 --> 00:00:38,640
Speaker 1: I'll just say that, it was clear I had a

12
00:00:38,640 --> 00:00:40,479
Speaker 1: lot to say, and I had a lot of opinions,

13
00:00:40,479 --> 00:00:42,639
Speaker 1: and I had a lot of big feelings. And eventually

14
00:00:42,680 --> 00:00:44,879
Speaker 1: you said, you know, if you feel like getting on

15
00:00:44,920 --> 00:00:47,200
Speaker 1: the mic and yelling at me about it, I'm here.

16
00:00:47,640 --> 00:00:48,720
Speaker 3: I'm here for you, Bridget.

17
00:00:48,880 --> 00:00:51,720
Speaker 1: Okay, so let's do it. I generally want to give

18
00:00:51,760 --> 00:00:53,959
Speaker 1: some broad strokes about how we got here and then

19
00:00:54,040 --> 00:00:55,920
Speaker 1: give you all my take on it. But I feel

20
00:00:55,920 --> 00:00:57,480
Speaker 1: like I need to say a few things right off

21
00:00:57,520 --> 00:00:59,720
Speaker 1: the top. First of all, some of these issues that

22
00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:02,200
Speaker 1: were to talk about are think y, right, They just

23
00:01:02,320 --> 00:01:05,640
Speaker 1: they deal with facts and what happened. But some of

24
00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:09,679
Speaker 1: them are feely this issue is really personal for me.

25
00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:12,040
Speaker 1: It felt personal, and it was clear when I was

26
00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:14,520
Speaker 1: putting together my research and my thoughts that I have

27
00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:17,560
Speaker 1: a lot of big emotions about it. When Gay resigned,

28
00:01:17,959 --> 00:01:20,760
Speaker 1: a bunch of the like black women's group chats that

29
00:01:20,800 --> 00:01:23,360
Speaker 1: I'm in, we're all buzzing about what it means and

30
00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:25,240
Speaker 1: how we should all be feeling in this moment. So

31
00:01:25,560 --> 00:01:27,160
Speaker 1: I say all of that to say this, which is

32
00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:29,440
Speaker 1: that it is important to me that I am giving

33
00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:33,800
Speaker 1: y'all very clear facts and also separating my feelings and

34
00:01:33,840 --> 00:01:36,399
Speaker 1: my opinions from those facts so that y'all can make

35
00:01:36,440 --> 00:01:38,760
Speaker 1: sense of what's actually happening and also come up with

36
00:01:38,800 --> 00:01:41,440
Speaker 1: your own take on it. But this story was, I

37
00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:44,280
Speaker 1: have to say, pretty complex for me. It's not a

38
00:01:44,440 --> 00:01:48,000
Speaker 1: terribly complex story, but it has a lot of intersecting

39
00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:51,000
Speaker 1: feelings and thoughts, and a lot of those feelings and

40
00:01:51,040 --> 00:01:53,560
Speaker 1: thoughts were really raw and nuanced, and so at times

41
00:01:53,640 --> 00:01:56,040
Speaker 1: it was like difficult for me to say where my

42
00:01:56,120 --> 00:01:59,440
Speaker 1: own feelings ended and the facts began. So I just

43
00:01:59,440 --> 00:02:01,520
Speaker 1: want to say that right off the top, if this

44
00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:05,040
Speaker 1: seems like a more emotional episode than you're used to

45
00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:08,040
Speaker 1: getting for me, that is why. Because this feels really personal.

46
00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:10,880
Speaker 1: So let's start with the basics of what's going on.

47
00:02:11,639 --> 00:02:15,239
Speaker 1: Doctor Claudine Gay was the first black woman president, first

48
00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:18,440
Speaker 1: black president, and the only the second woman president of

49
00:02:18,440 --> 00:02:22,360
Speaker 1: Harvard in the university's almost four hundred years. On January second,

50
00:02:22,760 --> 00:02:25,519
Speaker 1: she announced that she was resigning from that position, making

51
00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:29,520
Speaker 1: her tenure as Harvard's president the shortest in the university's history,

52
00:02:29,600 --> 00:02:32,639
Speaker 1: lasting only six months. And here's how we got here.

53
00:02:33,160 --> 00:02:35,480
Speaker 1: So after the attack in Israel in October seventh, there

54
00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:38,800
Speaker 1: was a big conversation about anti semitism on college campuses.

55
00:02:39,320 --> 00:02:41,680
Speaker 1: This is my opinion, so I want to state it carefully.

56
00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:45,600
Speaker 1: I think that those conversations were hijacked by people with

57
00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:49,800
Speaker 1: other agendas, and that concern about anti Semitism was being

58
00:02:49,919 --> 00:02:52,920
Speaker 1: used as a smoke screen to mount larger attacks on

59
00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:57,320
Speaker 1: culture war issues on university campuses, and also some just

60
00:02:57,919 --> 00:03:01,480
Speaker 1: personal grievances unrelated to anti Semitism at all. I'll get

61
00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:04,040
Speaker 1: into that in a moment, but first here's a timeline.

62
00:03:04,919 --> 00:03:08,000
Speaker 1: Amid concerns about anti Semitism on campuses, there was a

63
00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:11,359
Speaker 1: congressional hearing with the heads of Harvard, MIT and University

64
00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:15,000
Speaker 1: of Pennsylvania being questioned before Congress. When Gay was questioned

65
00:03:15,040 --> 00:03:18,560
Speaker 1: by Republican representative A Lease Stephonic on whether calls for

66
00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:22,360
Speaker 1: genocide of Jews violated Harvard's rules of bullying and harassment,

67
00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:26,839
Speaker 1: Gay responded, it can be depending on the context. Gay

68
00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:30,000
Speaker 1: went on to say, anti Semitic speech, when it crosses

69
00:03:30,040 --> 00:03:33,640
Speaker 1: into conduct that amounts to bullying, harassment, and intimidation, that

70
00:03:33,800 --> 00:03:37,160
Speaker 1: is actionable conduct, and we do take action. Now, this

71
00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:41,000
Speaker 1: moment was a particular moment that became a big flashpoint

72
00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:43,200
Speaker 1: from the hearings. It got a lot of attention on

73
00:03:43,240 --> 00:03:48,680
Speaker 1: social media, mostly negative, but the university stood by Gay. Next,

74
00:03:48,800 --> 00:03:52,240
Speaker 1: in an unexpected ad hominem attack that had nothing to

75
00:03:52,280 --> 00:03:56,560
Speaker 1: do with anti semitism, right wing activist Christopher Rufo surfaced

76
00:03:56,600 --> 00:04:00,560
Speaker 1: plagiarism allegations against Gay, calling her academic in integrity into

77
00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:04,600
Speaker 1: question with allegations of plagiarism. Then a writing newspaper based

78
00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:07,080
Speaker 1: here in DC called The Free Beacon wrote about it.

79
00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:09,200
Speaker 1: From then the New York Times starts writing about it

80
00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:12,240
Speaker 1: a ton multiple times per week, and then it becomes

81
00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:16,800
Speaker 1: a larger thing. Now, Harvard did an investigation that cleared

82
00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:20,080
Speaker 1: Gay of any academic misconduct, and they were standing by her.

83
00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:23,839
Speaker 1: The Harvard Corporation, which is, I guess the university's like

84
00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:27,520
Speaker 1: overall governing body, conducted a review of her published work,

85
00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:30,520
Speaker 1: and they found that she had not violated the university

86
00:04:30,640 --> 00:04:35,799
Speaker 1: standards for quote research misconduct, but they did find quote

87
00:04:35,960 --> 00:04:39,640
Speaker 1: a few instances of inadequate citation and stated that as

88
00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:44,280
Speaker 1: a result, doctor Gay was quote proactively requesting four corrections

89
00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:47,760
Speaker 1: and two articles to insert citations and quotation marks that

90
00:04:47,839 --> 00:04:51,360
Speaker 1: were omitted from the original publications. So here's a little

91
00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:52,920
Speaker 1: bit of a caveat, which is that I am not

92
00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:55,360
Speaker 1: an academic, so I don't even really want to weigh

93
00:04:55,400 --> 00:04:58,440
Speaker 1: in too much here beyond what Harvard's governing body has

94
00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:01,880
Speaker 1: already said. I was. I'm sort of an academic, like

95
00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:04,640
Speaker 1: I dropped out of a PhD program after completing my

96
00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:12,080
Speaker 1: coursework and really struggling, like struggle struggling, struggling to finish

97
00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:15,599
Speaker 1: a dissertation. So technically I'm what you call ABD like

98
00:05:15,680 --> 00:05:20,200
Speaker 1: all but dissertation. But you know, I could not manage

99
00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:25,120
Speaker 1: to adequately put together a dissertation, and I was like, nah,

100
00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:27,520
Speaker 1: I'm out, So what the hell do I know? Mike,

101
00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:29,839
Speaker 1: You do you consider yourself an academic. You kind of

102
00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:32,320
Speaker 1: you have a PhD, But like, what do you consider yourself?

103
00:05:33,600 --> 00:05:37,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, I somehow managed to put together the dissertation get

104
00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:42,520
Speaker 3: it published, and uh, you know, have been publishing academic

105
00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:46,680
Speaker 3: papers ever since. So yeah, I do consider myself an academic.

106
00:05:46,720 --> 00:05:50,680
Speaker 3: I've got several manuscripts that I'm working on with right

107
00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:53,839
Speaker 3: now with co authors. And you know, plagiarism is a

108
00:05:53,880 --> 00:06:00,480
Speaker 3: super serious allegation, and it sounds like she you didn't

109
00:06:00,520 --> 00:06:03,080
Speaker 3: do it right, Like, there is an investigation by the

110
00:06:03,120 --> 00:06:08,040
Speaker 3: governing body. They had independent experts who looked into it

111
00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:12,040
Speaker 3: and determined that, nah, there wasn't plagiarism there.

112
00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:15,920
Speaker 1: So here's my thing. I don't even necessarily want to

113
00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:18,600
Speaker 1: get into a thing of like, well did she plagiarize

114
00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:21,000
Speaker 1: or did she not plagiarize one, because, as I said,

115
00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:22,919
Speaker 1: I'm not an academic, and I think part of the

116
00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:26,280
Speaker 1: issue is that we are in this situation where people

117
00:06:26,320 --> 00:06:29,360
Speaker 1: who are also not academics like myself and have never

118
00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:32,880
Speaker 1: done academic writing like myself, are now the ones who

119
00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:35,240
Speaker 1: are attempting to set the standards for what is or

120
00:06:35,320 --> 00:06:38,440
Speaker 1: is not plagiarism and what is it is not acceptable

121
00:06:38,920 --> 00:06:42,080
Speaker 1: in academic writing and it's like, well, you know, I'm

122
00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:44,160
Speaker 1: not the expert. I don't know why these people who

123
00:06:44,200 --> 00:06:46,400
Speaker 1: don't have any expertise in it why they have become

124
00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:49,720
Speaker 1: the expert. But whatever. Like, these charges are not coming

125
00:06:49,760 --> 00:06:53,400
Speaker 1: from her academic colleagues or her peers, or like other academics.

126
00:06:53,640 --> 00:06:56,800
Speaker 1: They're coming from people who have exuplicitly already said they

127
00:06:56,800 --> 00:06:59,200
Speaker 1: have a grievance against her. If they wanted to do

128
00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:02,320
Speaker 1: a survey where we looked at the academic publishing records

129
00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:05,440
Speaker 1: of every college president in the United States, totally fine,

130
00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:07,440
Speaker 1: let's do that. But that is not what they're saying

131
00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:10,239
Speaker 1: or doing. They are saying, we need to zero in

132
00:07:10,280 --> 00:07:14,800
Speaker 1: on just her for some reason, and that reason is race. Like,

133
00:07:14,840 --> 00:07:17,720
Speaker 1: that's not me saying that. That is what Chris Rufo,

134
00:07:18,080 --> 00:07:21,800
Speaker 1: the person who initially surfaced these allegations against her, has said.

135
00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:26,320
Speaker 1: He explicitly has said that his disdain for DEI or diversity,

136
00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:29,680
Speaker 1: equity and inclusion is the point of why he is

137
00:07:29,720 --> 00:07:32,480
Speaker 1: doing this, why he is mounting these allegations. So the

138
00:07:32,520 --> 00:07:37,440
Speaker 1: focus on if she plagiarized or not totally allows what

139
00:07:37,520 --> 00:07:41,120
Speaker 1: are exuplicitly bad faith actors to set the agenda and

140
00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:45,080
Speaker 1: the terms of the conversation, so they say she plagiarized,

141
00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:47,440
Speaker 1: and rather than responding with like, well, what kind of

142
00:07:47,480 --> 00:07:51,200
Speaker 1: standard are you setting with regards to plagiarism accusations, mainstream

143
00:07:51,240 --> 00:07:53,880
Speaker 1: media outlets like The New York Times are just scrambling

144
00:07:53,920 --> 00:07:57,040
Speaker 1: to cover and answer the like well did she plagiarize

145
00:07:57,120 --> 00:08:02,240
Speaker 1: question in dozens of front page stories without doing any

146
00:08:02,320 --> 00:08:04,960
Speaker 1: of the examination of the larger question of why they

147
00:08:04,960 --> 00:08:07,560
Speaker 1: are presenting this as a question that needs to be answered,

148
00:08:07,920 --> 00:08:10,320
Speaker 1: And that is what I object to. All of this

149
00:08:10,560 --> 00:08:14,240
Speaker 1: is at the exuplicit urging of right wing education activist

150
00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:18,160
Speaker 1: Christopher Rufo. If that name sounds familiar to you, it

151
00:08:18,280 --> 00:08:20,600
Speaker 1: might because he is the person who brought us the

152
00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:25,080
Speaker 1: disingenuous moral panic on critical race theory that dominated our

153
00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:27,800
Speaker 1: national discourse and led to a flurry of state laws

154
00:08:27,840 --> 00:08:31,280
Speaker 1: against teaching critical race theory or really anything related to

155
00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:34,520
Speaker 1: like black people. Really, this is not me saying this.

156
00:08:34,520 --> 00:08:38,040
Speaker 1: This is from Christopher Rufo's own words and public tweets.

157
00:08:38,280 --> 00:08:41,520
Speaker 1: In March twenty twenty one, he tweeted, we have successfully

158
00:08:41,520 --> 00:08:45,439
Speaker 1: frozen their brand critical race theory into the public conversation

159
00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:49,800
Speaker 1: and are steadily driving up negative perceptions. We will eventually

160
00:08:49,840 --> 00:08:52,800
Speaker 1: turn it toxic as we put all the various cultural

161
00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:56,960
Speaker 1: insanities under that brand category. So as he says, it

162
00:08:57,040 --> 00:09:00,120
Speaker 1: is not about critical race theory, is it's about anything

163
00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:04,000
Speaker 1: that he thinks is a quote cultural insanity, putting it

164
00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:06,920
Speaker 1: under the umbrella of critical race theory, and then being like,

165
00:09:07,280 --> 00:09:09,680
Speaker 1: critical race theory. There it is, let's get it, let's

166
00:09:09,679 --> 00:09:11,920
Speaker 1: make a law against it. He goes on to say,

167
00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:15,520
Speaker 1: the goal is to have the public read something crazy

168
00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:19,720
Speaker 1: in the newspaper and immediately think critical race theory. We

169
00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:23,400
Speaker 1: have decodified the term and will recodify it to annex

170
00:09:23,480 --> 00:09:28,239
Speaker 1: the entire range of cultural constructions that are unpopular with Americans.

171
00:09:28,640 --> 00:09:32,840
Speaker 1: So any So, by his own admission, anything that he

172
00:09:32,920 --> 00:09:35,439
Speaker 1: don't like is critical race theory, and that's going to

173
00:09:35,480 --> 00:09:38,080
Speaker 1: be what he's trying to make toxic. And I gotta

174
00:09:38,080 --> 00:09:41,120
Speaker 1: give it to him because he did it mission accomplished.

175
00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:45,240
Speaker 1: Like people passed laws. There are laws on the books

176
00:09:45,440 --> 00:09:48,440
Speaker 1: fanning critical race theory from being taught. Even though he's saying,

177
00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:51,200
Speaker 1: I'm not even operating from the actual definition of whatever

178
00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:53,920
Speaker 1: it is. I'm just saying anything that I don't like,

179
00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:56,680
Speaker 1: anything I've agreevanced against. I'm I'm gonna get people to

180
00:09:56,760 --> 00:09:59,719
Speaker 1: fold that in with critical race theory and be against it.

181
00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:03,440
Speaker 1: And by the way, I just recently found this out

182
00:10:03,480 --> 00:10:07,720
Speaker 1: thanks to journalist Kayleie Holloway, Ruffo, who has positioned himself

183
00:10:07,760 --> 00:10:11,280
Speaker 1: as the person who should be reshaping our academic institutions,

184
00:10:11,800 --> 00:10:15,520
Speaker 1: has been saying that he himself holds a quote Masters

185
00:10:15,559 --> 00:10:20,720
Speaker 1: from Harvard, when in reality, dude went to Harvard's extension School,

186
00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:24,840
Speaker 1: not at real Harvard. That is a different thing. I

187
00:10:24,920 --> 00:10:27,360
Speaker 1: know this might sound like a little bit petty, but

188
00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:30,640
Speaker 1: it is just too ridiculous to ignore. The Harvard Extension

189
00:10:30,640 --> 00:10:34,720
Speaker 1: School is not Harvard. Like when I say Harvard, you're

190
00:10:34,760 --> 00:10:39,080
Speaker 1: thinking of Harvard the university. The Harvard Extension School is

191
00:10:39,120 --> 00:10:40,280
Speaker 1: a different entity.

192
00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:43,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, right, Like one as the question, what does that

193
00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:47,280
Speaker 3: word extension mean? Who is it being extended to? It

194
00:10:47,320 --> 00:10:50,040
Speaker 3: is being extended to the public, and is being extended

195
00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:53,840
Speaker 3: beyond Harvard to general members of the public.

196
00:10:54,160 --> 00:10:57,400
Speaker 1: Right, This is how Bestcolleges dot Com describes it. Quote

197
00:10:57,679 --> 00:11:01,320
Speaker 1: Harvard College, the undergraduate school at Harvard University can be

198
00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:03,520
Speaker 1: difficult to get into, to say the least, for the

199
00:11:03,559 --> 00:11:06,760
Speaker 1: class of twenty twenty seven, Harvard received almost fifty seven

200
00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:11,080
Speaker 1: thousand applications and accepted three point five percent admissions to

201
00:11:11,080 --> 00:11:15,920
Speaker 1: the undergrad extension program is dot dot dot. Let's string it.

202
00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:18,600
Speaker 1: Anyone can sign up for a course at any time.

203
00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:22,000
Speaker 1: So the fact that anyone can sign up for a

204
00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:25,600
Speaker 1: course at any time of the Harvard Extension School should

205
00:11:25,679 --> 00:11:28,280
Speaker 1: probably be a giveaway that it is not real Harvard,

206
00:11:28,640 --> 00:11:32,160
Speaker 1: where famously not everyone can just decide to go and

207
00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:33,439
Speaker 1: then go at any time.

208
00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:36,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, and to be clear, extensions are great. Lots of

209
00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:38,280
Speaker 3: universities have them. That's not what this is about, and

210
00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:39,840
Speaker 3: we won't get into it, but just to be clear,

211
00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:45,199
Speaker 3: we're not dunking on extension schools. What we're pointing out

212
00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:48,319
Speaker 3: is that he is claiming that he has a degree

213
00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:49,679
Speaker 3: from Harvard when he does not.

214
00:11:50,440 --> 00:11:52,960
Speaker 1: So side note, do you know who else did this

215
00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:55,320
Speaker 1: the very same thing also at Harvard.

216
00:11:55,840 --> 00:11:59,560
Speaker 3: One of your favorites, Yes, tire of Banks.

217
00:12:01,280 --> 00:12:04,880
Speaker 1: She went to the Harvard Extension Business School, which is like,

218
00:12:04,920 --> 00:12:06,920
Speaker 1: as far as I can tell us, like a week

219
00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:10,400
Speaker 1: a week program or something. She did notably have to

220
00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:13,640
Speaker 1: stay on campus for like a couple of weeks, and

221
00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:16,280
Speaker 1: it was a big deal. She's been dining out on

222
00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:20,480
Speaker 1: being a Harvard Business School graduate ever since. And it's funny,

223
00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:23,240
Speaker 1: I actually was joking about this before I even knew

224
00:12:23,320 --> 00:12:27,320
Speaker 1: about Rufo not having actually gone to Harvard. I was

225
00:12:27,320 --> 00:12:29,960
Speaker 1: actually joking a few weeks ago that I think, in

226
00:12:30,040 --> 00:12:33,400
Speaker 1: twenty twenty four, I want to go to an Ivy

227
00:12:33,520 --> 00:12:37,400
Speaker 1: League extension program and then start telling people I graduated

228
00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:40,160
Speaker 1: from Harvard, because I don't think that people really check.

229
00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:43,079
Speaker 1: And by the time anyone like actually looks into it,

230
00:12:43,360 --> 00:12:45,640
Speaker 1: you've already said You've gone to Harvard so many times

231
00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:48,319
Speaker 1: that like everybody's accepted it. Think I don't think anybody

232
00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:49,160
Speaker 1: is like really checking.

233
00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:52,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, I remember you joking about that, like weeks ago.

234
00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:54,120
Speaker 3: This was gonna be your big plan for twenty twenty four.

235
00:12:54,520 --> 00:12:56,920
Speaker 1: So when your next podcast is coming to you from

236
00:12:57,559 --> 00:13:02,120
Speaker 1: Columbia University Master's degree, hold bridget Todd, y'all will know

237
00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:05,440
Speaker 1: what's up. Don't blow up my spot like you heard,

238
00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:08,120
Speaker 1: you heard the plan. But like let's just see, well,

239
00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:12,920
Speaker 1: actually question if I actually did an Ivy League extension

240
00:13:12,960 --> 00:13:17,160
Speaker 1: program and then started publicly but often like obnoxiously and

241
00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:19,800
Speaker 1: smugly claiming that I went that I was like a

242
00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:22,599
Speaker 1: graduate of Harvard University or whatever. How long do you

243
00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:24,520
Speaker 1: think it would be until somebody called me out publicly?

244
00:13:24,559 --> 00:13:26,079
Speaker 1: It was like, you didn't actually go to Harvard, you

245
00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:27,600
Speaker 1: didn't actually go to MIT, it.

246
00:13:27,559 --> 00:13:30,079
Speaker 3: Would probably happen. I mean, you're here online, a bunch

247
00:13:30,120 --> 00:13:34,680
Speaker 3: a lot of people looking looking into what you say. Uh,

248
00:13:34,920 --> 00:13:37,880
Speaker 3: you know you're a black woman, so might be a

249
00:13:37,880 --> 00:13:39,679
Speaker 3: little harder to get away with it.

250
00:13:40,840 --> 00:13:43,560
Speaker 1: Maybe this will be my pet project in twenty twenty four.

251
00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:46,920
Speaker 1: How long it takes? I feel like if you did it, well,

252
00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:49,400
Speaker 1: you already have a PhD, so like what like, what

253
00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:51,080
Speaker 1: are you? What are you trying to prove at this point?

254
00:13:51,080 --> 00:13:52,880
Speaker 1: But I feel like it would be I would be

255
00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:54,319
Speaker 1: curious to know how long it would take each of

256
00:13:54,360 --> 00:13:55,560
Speaker 1: us to be called out publicly.

257
00:13:56,360 --> 00:13:58,600
Speaker 3: I feel like you should make a performance art piece

258
00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:01,559
Speaker 3: out of your own c and just like see how

259
00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:04,480
Speaker 3: many of these you can rack up, Like bridget Todd

260
00:14:04,480 --> 00:14:12,400
Speaker 3: holds degrees from Columbia, Harvard, Yale, you see SD Stamford,

261
00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:16,280
Speaker 3: you know, just throw in a couple to keep them guessing.

262
00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:18,400
Speaker 3: Why not finish at Maryland?

263
00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:22,880
Speaker 1: I that's where That's where I actually dropped out of

264
00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:26,120
Speaker 1: my PhD program. University of Maryland College Park my parents.

265
00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:29,160
Speaker 1: Almost every time we talked, it comes up like are

266
00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:31,200
Speaker 1: you gonna go back? And I'm always like, oh, maybe, no,

267
00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:34,000
Speaker 1: I'm never going back. Guy was a terrible student.

268
00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:37,240
Speaker 3: You could just go back for a weekend and say

269
00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:39,920
Speaker 3: you got the whole degree. They take money.

270
00:14:40,160 --> 00:14:42,560
Speaker 1: It was a crazy summer. What did I do? I

271
00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:50,160
Speaker 1: got a I got a PhD. Crazy summer pass fail.

272
00:14:54,200 --> 00:15:06,560
Speaker 2: Let's say a quick break at our back.

273
00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:10,600
Speaker 1: So the reason why I'm curious, like how long it

274
00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:12,440
Speaker 1: would take for people to call me out, is because

275
00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:14,640
Speaker 1: I do think that once you say it enough times,

276
00:15:14,640 --> 00:15:16,320
Speaker 1: people just start keep repeating it, like, oh, they went

277
00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:18,720
Speaker 1: to Harvard, they went to Harvard. Because even after all this,

278
00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:23,320
Speaker 1: Rufo is still claiming that he went to Harvard. Harvard. Rufo,

279
00:15:23,480 --> 00:15:26,280
Speaker 1: in an email to The New Republic, disagreed that there

280
00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:29,120
Speaker 1: was any difference between the Harvard Extension School and any

281
00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:31,920
Speaker 1: other school. He said that he was unaware of any

282
00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:35,440
Speaker 1: debate over whether Harvard Extension School should be referred to

283
00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:39,560
Speaker 1: differently than any other graduate degree from Harvard. So we

284
00:15:39,640 --> 00:15:43,600
Speaker 1: are meant to believe that Rufo is uniquely qualified to

285
00:15:43,640 --> 00:15:47,480
Speaker 1: be determining how higher education functions in the United states

286
00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:50,520
Speaker 1: how it should be run on all of that, And also,

287
00:15:50,880 --> 00:15:53,640
Speaker 1: if we take him at his word, he is also

288
00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:57,280
Speaker 1: too unfamiliar with higher education to know and understand the

289
00:15:57,280 --> 00:16:01,320
Speaker 1: difference between the Harvard Extension School and act Harvard, and

290
00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:04,800
Speaker 1: that he doesn't understand that he did not actually graduate

291
00:16:04,840 --> 00:16:06,960
Speaker 1: from the real Harvard University after having gone to an

292
00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:09,560
Speaker 1: institution that he didn't even really have to like apply

293
00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:14,400
Speaker 1: to attend. Either he's lying, he's stupid, or both a

294
00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:18,760
Speaker 1: complete mess. So Rufo was behind this pressure campaign to

295
00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:22,320
Speaker 1: else gay bad actor number one, the guy who literally

296
00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:26,080
Speaker 1: surfaced the plagiarism allegations. And this is what I mean

297
00:16:26,120 --> 00:16:29,320
Speaker 1: when I say that bad actors with agendas have nothing

298
00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:31,720
Speaker 1: to do with the stated goal of eradicating an anti

299
00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:36,000
Speaker 1: Semitism on college campuses or concern about plagiarism. They are

300
00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:38,680
Speaker 1: the ones who are setting the agenda. And again this

301
00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:42,440
Speaker 1: is not I don't know this because I'm super smart

302
00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:45,600
Speaker 1: or have done some like super sleuth thing. The reason

303
00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:48,600
Speaker 1: why I know this is because he says it explicitly

304
00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:51,600
Speaker 1: in his own words. In an interview with Politico. He

305
00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:54,480
Speaker 1: says this in very clear terms. We will link to

306
00:16:54,520 --> 00:16:56,520
Speaker 1: the piece in the show notes, but here is a bit.

307
00:16:57,200 --> 00:17:00,360
Speaker 1: Gay's resignation was the result of a coordinated and highly

308
00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:04,399
Speaker 1: organized conservative campaign. It shows a successful strategy for the

309
00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:07,400
Speaker 1: political right. He told Politico how we have to work

310
00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:09,600
Speaker 1: the media, how we have to exert pressure, and how

311
00:17:09,600 --> 00:17:12,080
Speaker 1: we have to sequence our campaign in order to be successful.

312
00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:15,240
Speaker 1: So basically, he describes it as a three pronged attack

313
00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:19,560
Speaker 1: political led by representatives Stefanett, the member of Congress who

314
00:17:19,600 --> 00:17:22,879
Speaker 1: grilled Gay about anti Semitism during the congressional hearing, who,

315
00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:25,919
Speaker 1: by the way, is a graduate of real Harvard, not

316
00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:28,760
Speaker 1: the extension school, but who was later removed from a

317
00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:32,199
Speaker 1: senior advisory committee at Harvard's School of Government after she

318
00:17:32,359 --> 00:17:37,399
Speaker 1: declined to resign voluntarily. Can you guess what happened with

319
00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:41,400
Speaker 1: her that she was basically forced out of this position.

320
00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:43,960
Speaker 3: It could be anything with her.

321
00:17:44,080 --> 00:17:46,280
Speaker 1: Well, it's because she was one of one hundred and

322
00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:51,720
Speaker 1: forty seven congressional Republicans who opposed certifying President Biden after

323
00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:55,280
Speaker 1: he won the election fairly and continued to lie about

324
00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:58,520
Speaker 1: non existent election and regularities that just like did not

325
00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:01,400
Speaker 1: exist and were made up. There was a pressure campaign

326
00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:03,480
Speaker 1: for Harvard to cut ties with her, and it worked.

327
00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:07,399
Speaker 1: So she has unrelated beef with Harvard. Here's what she

328
00:18:07,480 --> 00:18:10,360
Speaker 1: said after she was pushed out. The decision by Harvard's

329
00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:13,520
Speaker 1: administration to cower and cave to the woke left will

330
00:18:13,560 --> 00:18:17,440
Speaker 1: continue to erode diversity of thought, public discourse, and ultimately

331
00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:21,880
Speaker 1: the student experience. So again, not exactly somebody who has

332
00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:25,040
Speaker 1: no agenda in all this and is purely worried about

333
00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:28,480
Speaker 1: rooting out the rot of anti Semitism in our institutions.

334
00:18:28,760 --> 00:18:33,159
Speaker 1: And because like, come on, she supports former President Trump

335
00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:36,760
Speaker 1: and has said nothing when he had dinner with Nick Flintes,

336
00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:40,040
Speaker 1: but a literal Nazi. She also found herself in hot

337
00:18:40,040 --> 00:18:42,520
Speaker 1: water last year when she ran a campaign ad that

338
00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:46,560
Speaker 1: warrened immigrants could overthrow our current electorate, which is pretty

339
00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:49,000
Speaker 1: much a not so subtle nod to the great replacement

340
00:18:49,040 --> 00:18:52,479
Speaker 1: theory touted by white supremacists like the Buffalo Gunmen and

341
00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:55,719
Speaker 1: other trolls and bad actors. And so I just do

342
00:18:55,800 --> 00:18:59,040
Speaker 1: not believe that this is somebody who is purely motivated

343
00:18:59,119 --> 00:19:03,600
Speaker 1: by sniffing out the rod of anti semitism in our universities.

344
00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:12,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, she's super partisan insurrectionists. Supported Trump on January sixth,

345
00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:19,600
Speaker 3: supports him today. It's just hard to take it seriously exactly.

346
00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:23,000
Speaker 1: So we have Gay, a woman being pushed out of

347
00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:25,240
Speaker 1: her job at a private university with the help of

348
00:19:25,280 --> 00:19:28,720
Speaker 1: an elected official. Again, this is not me saying this.

349
00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:31,720
Speaker 1: This is Rufo, who publicly owns this as a win.

350
00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:35,679
Speaker 1: He says that Representative Staffanik used her position as an

351
00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:38,119
Speaker 1: agent of the state, and that is what helped pushed

352
00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:40,879
Speaker 1: Gay out of her job. So let's talk about how

353
00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:43,760
Speaker 1: he used the media to help push Gay out of

354
00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:46,560
Speaker 1: her job. On December nineteen, Ruffo tweeted that it was

355
00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:50,159
Speaker 1: his plan to quote smuggle the plagiarism story into the

356
00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:53,399
Speaker 1: media apparatus from the left, which legitimizes the narrative to

357
00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:56,600
Speaker 1: center left actors who have the power to topple Gay.

358
00:19:57,320 --> 00:19:59,879
Speaker 1: So this is what really pisces me off in a

359
00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:02,600
Speaker 1: story where there is a lot to be pissed off about.

360
00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:05,440
Speaker 1: Here's what Rufo told Politico about the strategy of getting

361
00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:07,480
Speaker 1: folks on the left and in legacy media at the

362
00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:10,760
Speaker 1: New York Times to comment on and thus legitimize the story.

363
00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:15,320
Speaker 1: He said, it's really a textbook example of successful conservative activism,

364
00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:18,639
Speaker 1: and the strategy is quite simple. Christopher Brunette and I

365
00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:21,840
Speaker 1: broke the story of Claudine's plagiarism on December tenth. It

366
00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:24,399
Speaker 1: drove more than one hundred million impressions on Twitter, and

367
00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:26,000
Speaker 1: then it was the top story for a number of

368
00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:28,720
Speaker 1: weeks in conservative media and right wing media. But I

369
00:20:28,800 --> 00:20:31,280
Speaker 1: knew that in order to achieve my objective, we had

370
00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:33,520
Speaker 1: to get the narrative into left wing media. But the

371
00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:36,680
Speaker 1: left wing media uniformly ignored the story for ten days

372
00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:39,000
Speaker 1: and tried to bury it. So I engaged in a

373
00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:42,040
Speaker 1: kind of a thoughtful and substantive campaign of shaming and

374
00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:44,800
Speaker 1: bullying my colleagues on the left to take seriously the

375
00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:49,000
Speaker 1: story of the most significant academic corruption scandal in Harvard's history.

376
00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:51,640
Speaker 1: Side note, there's just no way that can be true,

377
00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:55,560
Speaker 1: right Like, in twenty nineteen, Harvard released a report talking

378
00:20:55,560 --> 00:20:58,760
Speaker 1: about how many of the faculty and staff owned enslaved

379
00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:02,639
Speaker 1: people during slavery, and taught racial eugenics. Oh no, but

380
00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:07,800
Speaker 1: this president might have misattributed some citations. That is the

381
00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:08,640
Speaker 1: biggest scandal.

382
00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:14,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, And again there was an investigation, and independent investigators

383
00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:18,600
Speaker 3: determined that there was no academic misconduct, right Like, you

384
00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:23,120
Speaker 3: can't have corruption. It can't be a corruption scandal if

385
00:21:23,119 --> 00:21:24,960
Speaker 3: there's not misconduct happening.

386
00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:28,640
Speaker 1: So Ruffo goes on to say, finally the narrative broke through.

387
00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:31,720
Speaker 1: Within twenty four hours of my announcement about smuggling the

388
00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:35,280
Speaker 1: narrative into the left wing media, you see this domino effects.

389
00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:37,399
Speaker 1: See it end. BBC, the New York Times, the Washington

390
00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:40,200
Speaker 1: Post and other publications started to do the actual work

391
00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:43,240
Speaker 1: of exposing gays plagiarism. And then you see this beautiful

392
00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:45,960
Speaker 1: kind of flowering of op eds from all those publications

393
00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:49,000
Speaker 1: calling on Gay to resign. Once my position, which began

394
00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:52,440
Speaker 1: on the right, became the dominant position across the center left,

395
00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:54,639
Speaker 1: I knew it was just a matter of time before

396
00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:56,720
Speaker 1: we were going to be successful. He goes on to

397
00:21:56,760 --> 00:21:59,960
Speaker 1: say that this strategy gives permission for center left political

398
00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:02,560
Speaker 1: figures and intellectual figures to comment on the story and

399
00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:05,800
Speaker 1: then editorialize on it. Once we crossed that threshold, we

400
00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:08,800
Speaker 1: saw this cascade of publications calling on her to resign.

401
00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:12,439
Speaker 1: And this is why I am really looking at legacy

402
00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:14,959
Speaker 1: media publications at the New York Times about this, like

403
00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:17,000
Speaker 1: I'm not saying that it shouldn't be written about, but

404
00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:20,320
Speaker 1: it can't be news worthy enough to be written about

405
00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:23,960
Speaker 1: that amount, as Adam Johnson that the citations needed podcasts

406
00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:27,159
Speaker 1: put it. Articles about Clauding Gay and her various quote

407
00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:30,440
Speaker 1: scandals were top five featured stories on the New York

408
00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:36,520
Speaker 1: Times homepage December seventh, eighth, ninth, tenth, eleventh, twelfth, thirteenth, fourteen, seventeen,

409
00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:39,560
Speaker 1: twenty second, twenty fifth, and her firing is now their

410
00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:43,440
Speaker 1: top story. There is simply no way this is proportionate, sober,

411
00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:47,280
Speaker 1: or reasonable coverage. And I agree, I'm not saying it

412
00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:49,679
Speaker 1: shouldn't have been written about, but that is not a

413
00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:54,199
Speaker 1: reasonable amount of coverage. And especially when Christopher Rufo is

414
00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:57,840
Speaker 1: out here saying explicitly saying, oh, we're playing the New

415
00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:00,360
Speaker 1: York Times. We're getting them to legitimize this issue. We're

416
00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:02,680
Speaker 1: getting them to make this into an issue and write

417
00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:04,239
Speaker 1: about it and write about it and write about it

418
00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:08,640
Speaker 1: until it becomes true, just like me not going to Harvard.

419
00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:11,880
Speaker 1: If I say it enough times, eventually, who's gonna really

420
00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:14,160
Speaker 1: check whether or not I went. Who's gonna really check?

421
00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:14,400
Speaker 2: Well?

422
00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:17,080
Speaker 1: Are these actually plagiarism allegations? Or is it like the

423
00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:20,160
Speaker 1: few case of slopy citations, which the governing body says

424
00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:24,320
Speaker 1: is not plagiarism and I think when grifter's like RUFO,

425
00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:28,000
Speaker 1: who are explicit and clear about their intentions to use

426
00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:32,119
Speaker 1: these institutions to launder these disingenuous attacks, you are just

427
00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:35,439
Speaker 1: letting them set the agenda. And I don't understand why

428
00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:38,159
Speaker 1: when he flat out says I plan to make this

429
00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:41,639
Speaker 1: plagiarism thing a smoke screen to get this woman fired

430
00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:45,240
Speaker 1: as a larger attack on DEI, why pretend that that's

431
00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:47,920
Speaker 1: not what he's saying. Why act as if these are

432
00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:53,520
Speaker 1: conversations legitimately about just anti semitism, or legitimately about plagiarism,

433
00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:56,520
Speaker 1: when plain as day in English, he is saying that

434
00:23:56,520 --> 00:23:59,280
Speaker 1: they are not. Because again, here is what he says

435
00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:01,800
Speaker 1: in his own words, when asked by Politico, what is

436
00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:04,960
Speaker 1: your broader objective here beyond forcing the president of Harvard

437
00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:08,040
Speaker 1: to resign, he said, my primary objective is to eliminate

438
00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:11,439
Speaker 1: the DEI bureaucracy in every institution in America and to

439
00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:15,960
Speaker 1: restore truth rather than racialist ideology as the guiding principle

440
00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:19,160
Speaker 1: of America. There it is so in all of these

441
00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:22,159
Speaker 1: articles where you are saying he was the person to

442
00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:26,960
Speaker 1: surface these plagiarism allegations, why don't you say why don't

443
00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:29,960
Speaker 1: you follow the thought that he gives you dot dot

444
00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:34,680
Speaker 1: dot because I hate THEI. So I don't understand why

445
00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:38,080
Speaker 1: legacy media continues to allow themselves to be used in

446
00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:41,399
Speaker 1: this way over and over again by this one grifter

447
00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:44,359
Speaker 1: who is so clear about what he is doing, so

448
00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:47,159
Speaker 1: as revealing as I think his interview with Politico is.

449
00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:49,560
Speaker 1: Here's where they kind of lose me because after the

450
00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:52,640
Speaker 1: question where he says, oh, the entire thing is about

451
00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:56,320
Speaker 1: how much I don't like DEI, the next question that interviewer,

452
00:24:56,359 --> 00:24:58,520
Speaker 1: if I had been interviewing him, I would have asked,

453
00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:01,680
Speaker 1: is what does Claudine get have to do with DEI?

454
00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:04,080
Speaker 1: Because that's the threat I see here?

455
00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:04,400
Speaker 2: Right.

456
00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:06,840
Speaker 1: I have said this before on the show, but I

457
00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:10,880
Speaker 1: really want to underline it. DEI is the new critical

458
00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:13,679
Speaker 1: race theory. It's already happening. And the same way that

459
00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:17,000
Speaker 1: when rufo's attacks on critical race theory were happening, they

460
00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:19,960
Speaker 1: weren't really about attacking critical race theory because that would

461
00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:22,840
Speaker 1: be absurd because, as we know, critical race theory wasn't

462
00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:26,359
Speaker 1: actually being taught to like grade schoolers or preschoolers, and

463
00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:29,320
Speaker 1: it was barely even a thing that your average person

464
00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:31,920
Speaker 1: was encountering in their day to day life. It was

465
00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:36,000
Speaker 1: about labeling anything having to do with race or wokeness

466
00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:39,320
Speaker 1: as critical race theory and then making that label a

467
00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:44,520
Speaker 1: toxic brand. In her resignation letter, Gay kind of attludes

468
00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:46,800
Speaker 1: to that. She says, it is not lost on me

469
00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:50,000
Speaker 1: that I make an ideal canvas for projecting every anxiety

470
00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:54,200
Speaker 1: about the generational and demographic changes unfolding on American campuses.

471
00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:57,720
Speaker 1: A black woman selected to lead a storied institution, someone

472
00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:01,240
Speaker 1: who've used diversity as a source of institutional strength and dynamism.

473
00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:04,680
Speaker 1: Someone who has advocated a modern curriculum that spans from

474
00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:07,480
Speaker 1: the frontier of quantum science to the long neglected history

475
00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:10,080
Speaker 1: of Asian Americans. Someone who believes that a daughter of

476
00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:13,879
Speaker 1: Haitian immigrants has something to offer to the nation's oldest university.

477
00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:17,120
Speaker 1: Gay is the daughter of Haitian immigrants. Also, fun fact,

478
00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:19,520
Speaker 1: she is the cousin of the writer of Roxanne Gey.

479
00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:23,200
Speaker 1: So I think what Chris Rufo and people like him

480
00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:26,000
Speaker 1: are actually saying is that they are looking at this

481
00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:30,720
Speaker 1: institution that is Harvard, right, this big shining school, and saying,

482
00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:33,239
Speaker 1: if there is a black woman who is at the

483
00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:36,280
Speaker 1: helm of that institution. It could not possibly be because

484
00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:39,480
Speaker 1: she is qualified. It is because she is black. She

485
00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:42,240
Speaker 1: has been given this job as a diversity higher and

486
00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:45,560
Speaker 1: that is representative of all that is wrong that needs

487
00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:47,840
Speaker 1: to be righted in a society that has gotten two

488
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:50,800
Speaker 1: woke and too obsessed with identity politics. And that she

489
00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:52,880
Speaker 1: is a black woman at the helm of the oldest

490
00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:56,159
Speaker 1: and most prestigious university in the country is representative of that,

491
00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:59,520
Speaker 1: representative of all that is wrong with our current society,

492
00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:03,600
Speaker 1: our current woke agenda. Blah blah blah. So Ruffo said

493
00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:07,520
Speaker 1: that Bill Ackman represented the financial plank of getting Gay

494
00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:10,439
Speaker 1: pushed out of Harvard. So who is he, Well, he

495
00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:13,960
Speaker 1: is a billionaire hedge fund manager and a donor to Harvard.

496
00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:16,720
Speaker 1: He has given tens of millions of dollars to over

497
00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:19,879
Speaker 1: the years to Harvard, but that money actually does not

498
00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:22,960
Speaker 1: rank him even close to the top donors, not even

499
00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:25,879
Speaker 1: a little bit. He has not given near enough money

500
00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:28,199
Speaker 1: to rank as a top donor to the school. He

501
00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:30,399
Speaker 1: said that he was really upset about the way that

502
00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:33,879
Speaker 1: Gay handled charges of anti semitism on campus, and like

503
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:36,240
Speaker 1: that is what he has said is his issue with her.

504
00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:38,560
Speaker 1: But according to a piece in the New York Times.

505
00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:42,800
Speaker 1: Even before the October seventh attack, the relationship between Acman

506
00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:45,840
Speaker 1: as a donor and Harvard had already begun to deteriorate.

507
00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:49,600
Speaker 1: Mister Ackman has privately steamed at Harvard over at least

508
00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:52,320
Speaker 1: the past three years, Several people who have discussed the

509
00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:56,160
Speaker 1: subject with him say, in part, after the university's administration

510
00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:58,919
Speaker 1: brushed off his suggestions for how to set up a

511
00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:01,920
Speaker 1: testing lab to get totudents and staff back to campus

512
00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:04,800
Speaker 1: during the pandemic two years ago, in an incident not

513
00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:09,240
Speaker 1: previously reported, mister Ackman told members of Harvard's fundraising team

514
00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:12,440
Speaker 1: he might not give another dime because they hadn't heeded

515
00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:15,560
Speaker 1: his advice on how to invest an earlier donation, said

516
00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:19,040
Speaker 1: two people with knowledge of the exchanges. Mister Ackman sent

517
00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:22,720
Speaker 1: off a series of fiery letters to Harvard administrators, questioning

518
00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:26,600
Speaker 1: their financial acumen. He wound up donating more money anyway.

519
00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:31,600
Speaker 1: So it is possible that Acman was concerned about anti Semitism.

520
00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:34,360
Speaker 1: Like I'm not saying that that's a lie or made up,

521
00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:37,399
Speaker 1: but it's also clear that this is somebody who felt

522
00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:40,800
Speaker 1: that because they were giving some money again, though not

523
00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:43,680
Speaker 1: even close to a top donation that Harvard receives. And

524
00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:47,000
Speaker 1: I guess because he's like got business acumen, he's a

525
00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:50,640
Speaker 1: billionaire or something that like he should be having more

526
00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:54,320
Speaker 1: say in how things are run at Harvard and honestly

527
00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:59,160
Speaker 1: like to really keep it one hundred, to extrapolate a

528
00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:01,600
Speaker 1: little bit from what I've been in the New York Times. Again,

529
00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:04,320
Speaker 1: this is my opinion. I think he probably felt like

530
00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:08,920
Speaker 1: when Gay got into that position of president at Harvard

531
00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:13,800
Speaker 1: and then didn't immediately like look to him with the

532
00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:16,640
Speaker 1: reverence he felt he deserved. I bet that he was like,

533
00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:19,520
Speaker 1: who does this black bitch think she is not capitulating

534
00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:22,160
Speaker 1: to me? I'll show her like. I think that that's

535
00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:25,200
Speaker 1: probably how he felt. It sounds like even before Gay

536
00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:29,400
Speaker 1: was ever at the Helm, that relationship was deteriorating, and

537
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:33,520
Speaker 1: now having a black woman at the Helm not listening

538
00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:37,080
Speaker 1: to his brilliant financial advice, I think that probably chapped

539
00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:41,520
Speaker 1: is s like I have dealt with my fair share

540
00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:44,040
Speaker 1: of this kind of dynamic, and that's what it reads

541
00:29:44,080 --> 00:30:00,840
Speaker 1: like to me. More after a quick break, let's get

542
00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:05,680
Speaker 1: right back into it. So y'all might recall that after

543
00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:09,840
Speaker 1: the October seventh attack in Israel. The Harvard Undergraduate Palestine

544
00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:12,840
Speaker 1: Solidarity Committee published an open letter in which they said

545
00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:16,880
Speaker 1: that they hold quote the Israeli regime entirely responsible for

546
00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:20,719
Speaker 1: all unfolding violence, declaring that millions of Palestinians and Gaza

547
00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:22,800
Speaker 1: have been forced to live in an open air prison,

548
00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:25,400
Speaker 1: and called on Harvard to take action to stop the

549
00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:30,320
Speaker 1: ongoing annihilation of Palestinians. After they published this letter, Ackman

550
00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:32,840
Speaker 1: called for the publication of the names of all the

551
00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:35,360
Speaker 1: students involved in signing the letter so that he could

552
00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:38,760
Speaker 1: ensure that his company and others do not inadvertently hire

553
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:41,480
Speaker 1: any of the people who sign the letter. Acman posted,

554
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:44,240
Speaker 1: one should not be able to hide behind a corporate

555
00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:47,800
Speaker 1: shield with issuing statements supporting the actions of terrorists, and

556
00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:49,920
Speaker 1: the name should be made public so that their views

557
00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:53,280
Speaker 1: are publicly known. Keep in mind, we are talking about

558
00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:57,680
Speaker 1: undergraduate students here. Now this is my thing. Whether or

559
00:30:57,760 --> 00:31:00,760
Speaker 1: not you think that these undergrads should written this letter

560
00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:03,360
Speaker 1: or not, I'm not saying that's what I think, but

561
00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:06,280
Speaker 1: let's say, for the sake of argument, that's what somebody thought.

562
00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:09,720
Speaker 1: I can tell you, having an aggrieved sixty year old

563
00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:13,760
Speaker 1: billionaire donor to the school who has his own unrelated

564
00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:16,960
Speaker 1: gripe against the university. Litigating what should happen to a

565
00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:21,040
Speaker 1: bunch of undergrads is not good. Like issues of campus

566
00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:24,200
Speaker 1: protest and speech are you know, I guess they're important

567
00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:26,160
Speaker 1: in a kind of sense, like this is a whole

568
00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:29,280
Speaker 1: other episode. But and this is my opinion, even if

569
00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:32,000
Speaker 1: you think that these undergrads should not have written this letter,

570
00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:36,120
Speaker 1: they are in college. They are undergraduates. Like, where else

571
00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:38,360
Speaker 1: are you meant to be working out your political and

572
00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:41,880
Speaker 1: social opinions as a young person if not in college?

573
00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:44,560
Speaker 1: Like I don't even want to get into some of

574
00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:48,000
Speaker 1: the stuff I believed and publicly said when I was

575
00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:52,840
Speaker 1: an undergrad. I was walking around identifying as a libertarian,

576
00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:56,040
Speaker 1: thinking that that sounded cool and smart, But in reality,

577
00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:58,080
Speaker 1: I was nineteen and I was just like stoned all

578
00:31:58,120 --> 00:31:59,600
Speaker 1: the time, and I didn't know what I was saying

579
00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:02,840
Speaker 1: because I was young. So I just don't think a

580
00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:05,640
Speaker 1: dynamic or a billionaire who thinks everybody should be cow

581
00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:09,080
Speaker 1: chowing to him injecting himself into what is happening on

582
00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:12,640
Speaker 1: a college campus with undergrads is gonna be good for anybody.

583
00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:15,200
Speaker 1: Like I listened to a lot of the podcast You're

584
00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:18,960
Speaker 1: Wrong About and Michael Hubbs, friend of the show, talks

585
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:21,560
Speaker 1: about this a lot when he covers issues about like

586
00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:25,440
Speaker 1: campus culture wars, where he says, like, when stuff happens

587
00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:29,120
Speaker 1: on a college campus outside forces with an axe to grind,

588
00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:32,800
Speaker 1: swooping in and pouring gasoline on the fire is not

589
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:36,360
Speaker 1: making things any better, especially at a time and you

590
00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:40,680
Speaker 1: had trucks displaying the names and faces of undergraduates who

591
00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:43,920
Speaker 1: were supportive of Palestine on campus, Like, this is not

592
00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:49,400
Speaker 1: a safe or reasonable college campus climate for anyone. So

593
00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:52,920
Speaker 1: the day after Gay resigned, Actmen published a four thousand

594
00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:57,200
Speaker 1: words screed against Dei on Twitter where he says that

595
00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:02,440
Speaker 1: Dei is quote the root cause of anti Semitism at Harvard, which, like,

596
00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:06,160
Speaker 1: think about that, right, because Harvard is almost four hundred

597
00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:09,880
Speaker 1: years old. Dei wasn't even a thing until like around

598
00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:13,160
Speaker 1: the sixties, So he is saying that, Say, back in

599
00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:16,560
Speaker 1: nineteen twenty two, when Harvard is then president A. Lawrence

600
00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:19,560
Speaker 1: Lowell was doing all kinds of stuff like proposing a

601
00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:23,479
Speaker 1: quota on the number of Jewish students that Harvard should allow. Well,

602
00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:25,840
Speaker 1: it turns out that was actually because of Dei. A

603
00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:28,080
Speaker 1: school of thought that would not even exist for another

604
00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:31,680
Speaker 1: forty years, and it's such a rewriting of history. Like

605
00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:36,240
Speaker 1: I do think an honest assessment of anti semitism in

606
00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:40,800
Speaker 1: institutions is a worthwhile practice, but pointing to DEI as

607
00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:44,760
Speaker 1: your starting point is ridiculous when history exists. But you

608
00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:47,880
Speaker 1: know why, look at the rots in our institutions. Where

609
00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:50,520
Speaker 1: do you can just blame black people and blame wokeness

610
00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:54,480
Speaker 1: and call it a day, Ackman writes. Under DEI, one

611
00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:58,120
Speaker 1: degree of oppression is determined based upon where one resides

612
00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:01,360
Speaker 1: on a so called intersectional pere men of oppression, where

613
00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:05,000
Speaker 1: white Jews and Asians are deemed depressors and a subset

614
00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:08,680
Speaker 1: of of people of color, LGBTQ people and or women

615
00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:12,600
Speaker 1: are deemed to be oppressed. DEI is racist because reverse

616
00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:15,960
Speaker 1: racism is racism, even if it is against white people.

617
00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:17,960
Speaker 1: And it is remarkable that I even need to point

618
00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:21,240
Speaker 1: this out. This country has seen burgeoning resentment and anger

619
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:24,360
Speaker 1: grow materially over the last few years, and the DEI

620
00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:28,759
Speaker 1: movement is an important contributor to our growing divisiveness. Resentment

621
00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:31,520
Speaker 1: is one of the most important drivers of racism, and

622
00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:33,840
Speaker 1: it is the lack of equity I e fairness and

623
00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:37,040
Speaker 1: how DEI operates that contributes to this resentment. He continued,

624
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:39,960
Speaker 1: So what he is actually saying, in my opinion, is

625
00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:41,840
Speaker 1: that it is not about anti semitism and it's not

626
00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:45,200
Speaker 1: about plagiarism. And they are saying that out loud and

627
00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:48,640
Speaker 1: in print. It is this attitude that says that black

628
00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:51,439
Speaker 1: people and people of color have like gotten too much

629
00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:53,840
Speaker 1: handed to us because we are black, or because we

630
00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:56,440
Speaker 1: are women, or because we are black women. And honestly,

631
00:34:56,719 --> 00:34:59,359
Speaker 1: I agree with them that it is about resentment, white

632
00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:03,239
Speaker 1: resentment and white breathance and white anxiety that people like

633
00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:07,920
Speaker 1: him are stoking. And this anti DEI campaign is about

634
00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:11,520
Speaker 1: stoking those white grievances and resentment and saying, hey, look,

635
00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:14,680
Speaker 1: those freeloaders get everything and it's gotten out of hand.

636
00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:17,360
Speaker 1: Let's put a stop to it. To put a point

637
00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:19,719
Speaker 1: on the argument that I think he's making, Akman and

638
00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:22,279
Speaker 1: Rufo see a black woman at the helm of an

639
00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:25,520
Speaker 1: elite institution like Harvard and say she could have only

640
00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:28,200
Speaker 1: gotten there because she's an affirmative action hire and she

641
00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:31,440
Speaker 1: took that job from a more qualified white person, and

642
00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:35,800
Speaker 1: that needs to end. Vivek Ramaswami current Republican presidential candidate

643
00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:39,360
Speaker 1: tweeted after Gay's resignation, here's a rat apply idea for

644
00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:44,080
Speaker 1: the future select leadership based on merit. Who By the way,

645
00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:46,279
Speaker 1: for as much as he is handwringing about people who

646
00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:49,600
Speaker 1: might have gotten any support based on their identities, Ramaswami

647
00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:53,480
Speaker 1: himself got a fellowship from the Soros family intended to

648
00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:57,080
Speaker 1: support the educational pursuits of students who were raised by immigrants.

649
00:35:57,320 --> 00:36:00,080
Speaker 1: And to me, that is really what it comes down to.

650
00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:04,279
Speaker 1: It's different when he does it. When he is successful,

651
00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:07,439
Speaker 1: it is because of merit, even if he objectively got

652
00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:11,040
Speaker 1: a fellowship because of his identity. When Gay is successful,

653
00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:14,319
Speaker 1: it's because she's a diversity hire who just didn't work

654
00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:16,800
Speaker 1: hard and deserve it like he did. Like of course

655
00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:19,919
Speaker 1: he deserved it, not like her who gets things because

656
00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:22,799
Speaker 1: of her identity. He doesn't do that. That fellowship was

657
00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:25,359
Speaker 1: something else. He worked hard and it's merit for him.

658
00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:30,360
Speaker 1: And that is why you see this infuriating double standard

659
00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:34,320
Speaker 1: that only Gay is being held to. Like do people

660
00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:37,600
Speaker 1: think that Gay is the first and only university president

661
00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:40,520
Speaker 1: to have omitted a handful of citations over her academic career?

662
00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:44,200
Speaker 1: Why are we not digging into all of their publishing records.

663
00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:46,640
Speaker 1: If this is such a big deal for university presidents now,

664
00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:48,640
Speaker 1: like if you are affiliated with the university, is the

665
00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:51,640
Speaker 1: standard that we're going to go through every piece that

666
00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:54,040
Speaker 1: that you've ever published and every citation that you've ever

667
00:36:54,080 --> 00:36:57,240
Speaker 1: published to make sure that it checks out. If so, fine,

668
00:36:57,440 --> 00:37:00,279
Speaker 1: But if that's not happening, why are we only talking

669
00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:03,080
Speaker 1: about it with regards to Gay? And this is what

670
00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:06,680
Speaker 1: really pisces me off and where I kind of get

671
00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:09,640
Speaker 1: into my feelings about the whole thing, because when this

672
00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:13,120
Speaker 1: happens to qualify black women, what they are really saying

673
00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:15,520
Speaker 1: is that none of us deserve to be anywhere or

674
00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:19,880
Speaker 1: have power over anything. If you're Vice President Harris, you

675
00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:22,160
Speaker 1: got power because you slept your way to the top.

676
00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:25,520
Speaker 1: Or if you're Supreme Court Justice Katanchi Brown Jackson, it's

677
00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:28,360
Speaker 1: because of affirmative action. Like it doesn't matter if you

678
00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:31,360
Speaker 1: have a PhD from Harvard, which Gay has. It doesn't

679
00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:33,239
Speaker 1: matter if you've gone to the best schools and ben

680
00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:35,880
Speaker 1: at the top of your class forever as Gay has.

681
00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:40,720
Speaker 1: Black excellence will not protect you, Because what the fuck

682
00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:43,600
Speaker 1: makes these people think that this is a woman who

683
00:37:43,640 --> 00:37:46,799
Speaker 1: didn't get where she did on merit. It is only

684
00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:48,920
Speaker 1: because she is a black woman, by virtue of just

685
00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:52,080
Speaker 1: being a black woman. In these spaces, these people automatically

686
00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:54,120
Speaker 1: think that we were just handed a position or a

687
00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:57,960
Speaker 1: fellowship or a job or support. It is automatic to them.

688
00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:01,000
Speaker 1: The people tweeting about gay just to and don't even

689
00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:03,239
Speaker 1: give it a second thought. And that wouldn't be so

690
00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:07,400
Speaker 1: infuriating if it did not also coincide with this reality

691
00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:11,080
Speaker 1: that they do not give us a fucking thing. Like

692
00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:16,360
Speaker 1: if black women had been handed cushy positions at Harvard

693
00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:19,360
Speaker 1: all this time, why did it take almost four hundred

694
00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:21,960
Speaker 1: years for one of us to collect If there is

695
00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:24,560
Speaker 1: a black woman working in a space where you do

696
00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:28,080
Speaker 1: not usually see black women, trust and believe she is

697
00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:30,480
Speaker 1: there because she earned it. They do not give us

698
00:38:30,560 --> 00:38:33,600
Speaker 1: a thing. It takes so much work. You have to

699
00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:36,399
Speaker 1: claw for it, fight for it, put up with shit

700
00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:39,880
Speaker 1: that people could not even imagine, to stay there day

701
00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:43,080
Speaker 1: after day. It truly reminds me of that episode of

702
00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:46,200
Speaker 1: Scandal where Carrie Washington's dad is yelling at her and

703
00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:49,000
Speaker 1: he's like, we have to be twice as good to

704
00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:52,120
Speaker 1: get half of what they have. Like that really is

705
00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:55,040
Speaker 1: the truth of what it is like, and I don't know,

706
00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:59,200
Speaker 1: just like seeing this unfold, seeing how quickly all of

707
00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:04,640
Speaker 1: these people so quickly turned to her not being qualified

708
00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:08,880
Speaker 1: as an automatic given, it just really hurt. And I

709
00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:12,279
Speaker 1: think that's one of the reasons like why this was

710
00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:14,560
Speaker 1: so hard for me and why it's so personal for me.

711
00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:19,200
Speaker 1: After Gay resigned, Jason kalakanis who is one of the

712
00:39:19,239 --> 00:39:21,640
Speaker 1: hosts of the All In Tech podcast, who I feel

713
00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:24,120
Speaker 1: like I talk about that show a lot on this podcast,

714
00:39:24,520 --> 00:39:27,560
Speaker 1: and it's probably because, like it is generally like the

715
00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:30,840
Speaker 1: number one or number two tech podcast in the world,

716
00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:33,040
Speaker 1: and so I think, like what they say, they have

717
00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:36,000
Speaker 1: a huge platform when it comes to shaping opinions and technology,

718
00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:39,000
Speaker 1: So what they say, I think really matters. He tweeted.

719
00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:42,759
Speaker 1: We are returning to a colorblind, performance based society where

720
00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:46,840
Speaker 1: we judge people by their character, effort, and achievements. Identity

721
00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:49,239
Speaker 1: politics is a road to nowhere, and it focuses a

722
00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:51,879
Speaker 1: society on what divides us as opposed to what binds us.

723
00:39:52,120 --> 00:39:54,759
Speaker 1: As we've been back, however, we must acknowledge that the

724
00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:57,239
Speaker 1: world isn't there and everyone has a different starting line

725
00:39:57,239 --> 00:40:00,000
Speaker 1: in life. It is virtuous to support everyone who starts

726
00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:01,840
Speaker 1: behind us to catch up. But we should do this

727
00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:07,160
Speaker 1: at the source education, internships and skills training. So this

728
00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:09,520
Speaker 1: tweet is what really got me.

729
00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:13,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, I remember you reading it to me and it

730
00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:17,400
Speaker 3: was you had a big reaction to this tweet.

731
00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:24,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, I did. I don't exactly know why. I think

732
00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:26,920
Speaker 1: part of it is because we're both tech podcasters and

733
00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:32,719
Speaker 1: so ostensibly we're kind of colleagues, and I think it

734
00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:39,239
Speaker 1: really cut deeply because this is how they really feel

735
00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:41,880
Speaker 1: about me. This is what they really think about me.

736
00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:45,880
Speaker 1: If I don't know Jason as far as I know,

737
00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:48,239
Speaker 1: we've never been in the same room together, but if

738
00:40:48,239 --> 00:40:51,680
Speaker 1: we were at a tech conference or a podcast meetup

739
00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:54,799
Speaker 1: or something and he saw me there, this is what

740
00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:57,759
Speaker 1: he would really think about me. That I didn't get

741
00:40:57,800 --> 00:41:02,879
Speaker 1: there on my merit, that I couldn't be qualified, And

742
00:41:04,120 --> 00:41:08,880
Speaker 1: it just really hurts. Like if somebody listening knows Jason

743
00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:11,439
Speaker 1: or listens to his show or has a connection to him,

744
00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:15,040
Speaker 1: I honestly hope he hears this and like, I don't

745
00:41:15,080 --> 00:41:18,040
Speaker 1: mean that in like a badass bitch way I wish

746
00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:20,000
Speaker 1: I did. I don't I don't mean that in a

747
00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:22,440
Speaker 1: like tell Circey. I want her to know it was

748
00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:23,440
Speaker 1: me kind of way.

749
00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:25,720
Speaker 2: With that reference.

750
00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:27,680
Speaker 1: I thank you. I never watched the Game of Throw,

751
00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:28,680
Speaker 1: so I was kind of like, ooh, this is the

752
00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:33,400
Speaker 1: right reference. Yeah. I hope that he hears this somehow.

753
00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:35,680
Speaker 1: I'm sure he's not a listener of the show, but

754
00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:39,399
Speaker 1: I mean it in the way that like, I really

755
00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:42,480
Speaker 1: want him to hear this, and I would be happy

756
00:41:42,520 --> 00:41:44,319
Speaker 1: to talk to him about this. Like, if he does

757
00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:46,759
Speaker 1: hear this and he wants to talk to me off

758
00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:48,360
Speaker 1: the record or on the record, I want to have

759
00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:51,759
Speaker 1: a conversation about this. If you were to scroll the

760
00:41:51,880 --> 00:41:55,919
Speaker 1: Apple tech podcasts where Jason and I both sometimes show

761
00:41:56,000 --> 00:41:58,279
Speaker 1: up him all the time, me if I'm lucky the

762
00:41:58,280 --> 00:42:01,160
Speaker 1: top Apple Tech podcasts, and you were to tell me

763
00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:04,440
Speaker 1: how many of those shows were hosted black black women,

764
00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:07,080
Speaker 1: or even how many of them had black women behind

765
00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:09,600
Speaker 1: the scenes. How many of those shows even had black

766
00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:12,160
Speaker 1: women as guests, let's say they have white hosts, how

767
00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:15,360
Speaker 1: many of them regularly spotlight black women's voices even just

768
00:42:15,400 --> 00:42:18,480
Speaker 1: as guests as commentary. Take a look at those numbers,

769
00:42:18,719 --> 00:42:22,120
Speaker 1: and then tell me, Jason with a straight face, that

770
00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:24,960
Speaker 1: we have always that we are in a performance based

771
00:42:25,360 --> 00:42:28,920
Speaker 1: colorblind society here in the tech space that we're both in.

772
00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:31,960
Speaker 1: Look how few of us there are in this space

773
00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:34,920
Speaker 1: and tell me with a straight face that you think

774
00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:38,799
Speaker 1: that I got here because they are handing out positions

775
00:42:38,840 --> 00:42:42,680
Speaker 1: and jobs and funding and podcasts and support to black

776
00:42:42,719 --> 00:42:45,799
Speaker 1: women because of our identities. I am not saying that

777
00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:48,359
Speaker 1: I am the only one of us out here. Thank God,

778
00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:49,600
Speaker 1: I am not the only one of us out here.

779
00:42:49,640 --> 00:42:51,000
Speaker 1: I would not want to be in this space if

780
00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:53,880
Speaker 1: I was the only Black women out here doing this. However,

781
00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:57,560
Speaker 1: if what Jason is saying is true, and we're all

782
00:42:57,719 --> 00:43:00,959
Speaker 1: just getting whatever be thrown at us because we're black women,

783
00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:03,880
Speaker 1: then where are the rest of us? Why is this

784
00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:07,800
Speaker 1: space so white and male? Why does this space feel

785
00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:11,719
Speaker 1: so lonely sometimes when I look at your pod, the

786
00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:15,880
Speaker 1: all in podcast? Why does your podcast have no Black women?

787
00:43:16,239 --> 00:43:19,719
Speaker 1: Why do y'all almost never spotlight black women, our research,

788
00:43:19,880 --> 00:43:23,920
Speaker 1: our commentary, our analysis? Where is it if? If we

789
00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:27,520
Speaker 1: are just been being forced into these spaces not because

790
00:43:27,560 --> 00:43:29,759
Speaker 1: we deserve it, not because of merit, but because they're

791
00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:32,160
Speaker 1: just giving them away because of because we're black women

792
00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:34,399
Speaker 1: and the word is getting everything, where are the rest

793
00:43:34,440 --> 00:43:36,640
Speaker 1: of us, where are we? I would love to know

794
00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:39,839
Speaker 1: if what are you is saying is true and that

795
00:43:40,480 --> 00:43:44,080
Speaker 1: people are just being given things. When it comes to

796
00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:47,879
Speaker 1: VC funding, why is it that black women get less

797
00:43:47,880 --> 00:43:51,840
Speaker 1: than one percent of all VC funding? Not even like

798
00:43:52,040 --> 00:43:55,480
Speaker 1: less than one not even one. One is the smallest

799
00:43:55,520 --> 00:43:57,479
Speaker 1: amount of a number that something can be and still

800
00:43:57,480 --> 00:43:59,760
Speaker 1: be a number, and we don't even get that. Why

801
00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:02,359
Speaker 1: if what you are saying is true, how can that

802
00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:07,160
Speaker 1: be possible? And I think hearing comments like that from

803
00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:12,680
Speaker 1: people like Jason against the backdrop where we already get

804
00:44:13,040 --> 00:44:15,960
Speaker 1: so few of anything, so little of anything. We already

805
00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:19,600
Speaker 1: get the crumbs, the scraps, the less than one and

806
00:44:19,680 --> 00:44:22,279
Speaker 1: to have people say, well, what little you do have,

807
00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:24,640
Speaker 1: you don't even really deserve that it was handed to you.

808
00:44:25,080 --> 00:44:28,080
Speaker 1: It's just such a slap in the face. And what

809
00:44:28,239 --> 00:44:30,960
Speaker 1: upsets me about this is that it negates the reality

810
00:44:31,239 --> 00:44:35,120
Speaker 1: that people on the outside don't always see. And I honestly,

811
00:44:35,200 --> 00:44:38,880
Speaker 1: like work very hard to like not get down on

812
00:44:38,920 --> 00:44:41,319
Speaker 1: it and not focus on it. But the reality is

813
00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:46,880
Speaker 1: that we are dealing with so much just to be

814
00:44:47,040 --> 00:44:50,400
Speaker 1: in these spaces, like I had to fight to have

815
00:44:50,480 --> 00:44:55,080
Speaker 1: shows on the same chart as Jason's albeit one hundred

816
00:44:55,160 --> 00:44:57,359
Speaker 1: slots down, but I had to fight to be there.

817
00:44:57,400 --> 00:45:00,360
Speaker 1: You think they gave me anything. You think anybody on

818
00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:04,520
Speaker 1: my Dora and said here, take this. I fucking wish

819
00:45:04,920 --> 00:45:06,960
Speaker 1: I would. If that were the case, I would be

820
00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:09,600
Speaker 1: the first person to be like, oh my god, like,

821
00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:13,120
Speaker 1: can you believe I got this? How cushy? And this

822
00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:17,759
Speaker 1: assumption that it is about merit for him and not

823
00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:21,520
Speaker 1: about merit for me on the basis of me being

824
00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:26,319
Speaker 1: a black woman, it's not just wrong, it's offensive, like

825
00:45:27,040 --> 00:45:30,600
Speaker 1: it's a lie. It is hurtful because these are my

826
00:45:30,719 --> 00:45:33,160
Speaker 1: colleagues and this is how they really see me. This

827
00:45:33,239 --> 00:45:37,800
Speaker 1: is what they really actually think about me. And yeah,

828
00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:41,000
Speaker 1: I do take it personally to have someone say like, oh, well,

829
00:45:41,040 --> 00:45:44,680
Speaker 1: for him, it's about merit, but for me, I gotta

830
00:45:44,719 --> 00:45:48,000
Speaker 1: be the diversity higher. And so we have to work

831
00:45:48,280 --> 00:45:51,200
Speaker 1: very hard to fight for what we get, and what

832
00:45:51,239 --> 00:45:54,239
Speaker 1: we get is not often a lot and not often

833
00:45:54,280 --> 00:45:55,680
Speaker 1: what we deserve, and we kind of have to like

834
00:45:55,719 --> 00:45:58,279
Speaker 1: make a meal of that. But then on top of it,

835
00:45:58,600 --> 00:46:02,279
Speaker 1: to have people like them who set the agenda, set

836
00:46:02,360 --> 00:46:04,120
Speaker 1: the tone and be like, oh, well, you don't even

837
00:46:04,120 --> 00:46:08,520
Speaker 1: deserve what you have Meanwhile, if they knew the stuff

838
00:46:08,560 --> 00:46:11,360
Speaker 1: that I have to smile through, the amounts of shit

839
00:46:11,520 --> 00:46:14,319
Speaker 1: I have to eat regularly, the kind of resiponses that

840
00:46:14,360 --> 00:46:17,000
Speaker 1: we get from people who don't think that we deserve

841
00:46:17,080 --> 00:46:19,919
Speaker 1: to be where we are, just to have the opportunity

842
00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:23,959
Speaker 1: to work and make less it would shock him, Like, y'all,

843
00:46:23,960 --> 00:46:27,920
Speaker 1: remember they had to have public campaigns to remind white

844
00:46:27,960 --> 00:46:31,600
Speaker 1: people not to touch black people's hair in public places.

845
00:46:32,160 --> 00:46:36,080
Speaker 1: This has happened to me before in a professional context, Jason,

846
00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:38,560
Speaker 1: Has it ever happened to you? Have you ever had

847
00:46:38,600 --> 00:46:41,000
Speaker 1: to experience that in front of your colleagues and then

848
00:46:41,160 --> 00:46:43,680
Speaker 1: just smile through it and brush it off and keep

849
00:46:43,719 --> 00:46:46,319
Speaker 1: going and do your job, because that's just how it is.

850
00:46:46,800 --> 00:46:49,759
Speaker 1: We just didn't add for the service delete me, and

851
00:46:49,840 --> 00:46:51,719
Speaker 1: in the when I got that ad it, I was like, Oh,

852
00:46:51,760 --> 00:46:54,000
Speaker 1: I know exactly what I'll say, which is that even

853
00:46:54,080 --> 00:46:56,920
Speaker 1: before the podcast started, when I was just working out

854
00:46:56,960 --> 00:46:58,640
Speaker 1: what we were going to be talking about, one of the

855
00:46:58,640 --> 00:47:01,239
Speaker 1: first things I did a sign up for delete me

856
00:47:01,360 --> 00:47:04,800
Speaker 1: because I was afraid that people were gonna come after

857
00:47:04,880 --> 00:47:07,400
Speaker 1: me and come after my family and come after my

858
00:47:07,520 --> 00:47:09,680
Speaker 1: loved ones because of the things that I was saying

859
00:47:09,680 --> 00:47:13,000
Speaker 1: on here, and those fears are not unfounded, they are

860
00:47:13,040 --> 00:47:18,520
Speaker 1: actually very reasonable, Like people like Jason have no idea

861
00:47:18,960 --> 00:47:22,120
Speaker 1: what people like me have to go through just to

862
00:47:22,280 --> 00:47:25,560
Speaker 1: be here and get less, like he could not be

863
00:47:25,680 --> 00:47:29,319
Speaker 1: me for one second again, Like it just upsets me

864
00:47:29,760 --> 00:47:33,120
Speaker 1: that this to hear, to hear what I what you

865
00:47:33,160 --> 00:47:35,880
Speaker 1: always suspect, to hear what you really know deep down,

866
00:47:36,239 --> 00:47:39,439
Speaker 1: it just really hurts. And yeah, I mean I'm hurt,

867
00:47:39,560 --> 00:47:43,240
Speaker 1: Like it's upsetting to me. And I think it goes

868
00:47:43,280 --> 00:47:45,680
Speaker 1: for women, It goes for black women, it goes for

869
00:47:45,840 --> 00:47:48,400
Speaker 1: other people of color, it goes for trans folks, it

870
00:47:48,400 --> 00:47:52,200
Speaker 1: goes for queer folks. Like if people really knew how

871
00:47:52,239 --> 00:47:54,400
Speaker 1: hard it is to do what we do, to have

872
00:47:54,440 --> 00:47:56,279
Speaker 1: to show up in some of these spaces, how much

873
00:47:56,320 --> 00:47:59,000
Speaker 1: of ourselves we have to like cut and cut off

874
00:47:59,040 --> 00:48:02,080
Speaker 1: and cut out be in these spaces. Like we know,

875
00:48:02,719 --> 00:48:04,800
Speaker 1: we feel it every day, We deal with that reality

876
00:48:04,840 --> 00:48:07,560
Speaker 1: every day, but they don't know. And then on top

877
00:48:07,600 --> 00:48:09,560
Speaker 1: of it, they get to go out in public and

878
00:48:09,600 --> 00:48:12,160
Speaker 1: say shit like this, and not just say it, but

879
00:48:12,560 --> 00:48:15,960
Speaker 1: have what they say set the agenda, set the tone,

880
00:48:16,239 --> 00:48:20,319
Speaker 1: establish the conversation, be accepted as truth. It is just

881
00:48:20,360 --> 00:48:26,360
Speaker 1: like so wrong and so ignorant, and it hurts like

882
00:48:26,480 --> 00:48:28,319
Speaker 1: it hurts it. These are the people that I'm like

883
00:48:29,200 --> 00:48:32,080
Speaker 1: in the same space with. It hurts that this is

884
00:48:32,120 --> 00:48:35,200
Speaker 1: how they this is genuinely how they see us. And

885
00:48:35,280 --> 00:48:37,440
Speaker 1: I know, I know this sounds like very woe with

886
00:48:37,520 --> 00:48:41,400
Speaker 1: me right now, and I am sorry, but it hurts

887
00:48:41,440 --> 00:48:45,160
Speaker 1: me very personally, very deeply. And the reality is that

888
00:48:45,200 --> 00:48:48,760
Speaker 1: it hurts all of us. The data is super clear

889
00:48:48,960 --> 00:48:52,160
Speaker 1: that these kinds of public conversations trickle down to other

890
00:48:52,239 --> 00:48:55,920
Speaker 1: marginalized people and it paints us all as unqualified and

891
00:48:55,960 --> 00:48:59,200
Speaker 1: bad leaders. Like it is. It was so easy for

892
00:48:59,239 --> 00:49:02,840
Speaker 1: people to say Clauding Gay is unqualified, she's a PhD

893
00:49:02,960 --> 00:49:06,120
Speaker 1: from Harvard. Too many people have that, like they are

894
00:49:06,200 --> 00:49:09,479
Speaker 1: so quick to cut her down and give and tell

895
00:49:09,600 --> 00:49:12,239
Speaker 1: us that she didn't deserve to get where she is.

896
00:49:12,640 --> 00:49:16,759
Speaker 1: And other people see that and it has a real impact.

897
00:49:17,200 --> 00:49:20,240
Speaker 1: It makes it so easy to look at marginalized people

898
00:49:20,280 --> 00:49:23,640
Speaker 1: and leadership positions and say we don't belong there, we

899
00:49:23,640 --> 00:49:26,640
Speaker 1: shouldn't be there. This stuff has real consequences. It keeps

900
00:49:26,760 --> 00:49:29,319
Speaker 1: us out of rooms where decisions are being made, which

901
00:49:29,360 --> 00:49:32,560
Speaker 1: makes us all worse off. It makes us all less safe.

902
00:49:32,719 --> 00:49:35,719
Speaker 1: It makes technology worse because it's being designed by less

903
00:49:35,719 --> 00:49:38,680
Speaker 1: people who are in more silos. Everybody suffers when this

904
00:49:38,760 --> 00:49:41,960
Speaker 1: kind of stuff flourishes. As it's flourishing right now. Other

905
00:49:42,080 --> 00:49:44,759
Speaker 1: marginalized people see this and they think, well, it's not

906
00:49:44,880 --> 00:49:47,799
Speaker 1: worth it to strive if this is going to be

907
00:49:47,960 --> 00:49:51,400
Speaker 1: what it is. It prevents us from having a truly

908
00:49:51,480 --> 00:49:55,279
Speaker 1: representative democracy, the democracy that we deserve, and keeps us

909
00:49:55,280 --> 00:49:58,600
Speaker 1: from having civic and public spaces that look like the

910
00:49:58,640 --> 00:50:01,600
Speaker 1: communities that they're supposed to be working for. And I

911
00:50:01,640 --> 00:50:04,440
Speaker 1: think that that is what people like RUFO are saying,

912
00:50:04,920 --> 00:50:08,719
Speaker 1: that we shouldn't be able to have any avenues to

913
00:50:08,800 --> 00:50:12,080
Speaker 1: be in civic and public life and build power in

914
00:50:12,120 --> 00:50:15,840
Speaker 1: those spaces. We shouldn't have any avenues to power Black women,

915
00:50:16,080 --> 00:50:19,960
Speaker 1: who we already hold so little institutional power, and they

916
00:50:19,960 --> 00:50:23,560
Speaker 1: want us to not have that either. And honestly, like

917
00:50:23,680 --> 00:50:26,319
Speaker 1: the thing about Gay, it's not really about her as

918
00:50:26,320 --> 00:50:28,360
Speaker 1: an individual, but I do think I might have a

919
00:50:28,360 --> 00:50:30,680
Speaker 1: little bit of an unpopular opinion about her, which is that, like,

920
00:50:30,960 --> 00:50:34,279
Speaker 1: I don't know Gay, but she is unquestionably qualified to

921
00:50:34,280 --> 00:50:36,480
Speaker 1: be the president of Harvard. The question of whether she

922
00:50:36,560 --> 00:50:39,680
Speaker 1: got there by merrit or not like is laughable, does

923
00:50:39,680 --> 00:50:42,799
Speaker 1: not deserve a response. But I think that maybe part

924
00:50:42,840 --> 00:50:46,239
Speaker 1: of gay maybe thought that like carrying weight for Harvard's

925
00:50:46,280 --> 00:50:49,640
Speaker 1: status quo was going to be the answer for her

926
00:50:49,760 --> 00:50:52,680
Speaker 1: and that like maybe that would save her, Like if

927
00:50:52,719 --> 00:50:55,280
Speaker 1: she doesn't mix it up too much, the storm will pass.

928
00:50:55,440 --> 00:50:58,040
Speaker 1: And in the end it didn't save her. My friend

929
00:50:58,080 --> 00:51:01,320
Speaker 1: Tim put it really well on Twitter. Her resignation is

930
00:51:01,400 --> 00:51:03,600
Speaker 1: proof that you can be middle of the road, a

931
00:51:03,719 --> 00:51:07,080
Speaker 1: political and innocuous and your black ass will still get clipped.

932
00:51:07,400 --> 00:51:10,080
Speaker 1: So you might as well stand for something and fight back,

933
00:51:11,800 --> 00:51:14,240
Speaker 1: all right, I am I genuinely upset.

934
00:51:14,520 --> 00:51:16,759
Speaker 3: Yeah that was a lot. Yeah, thank you for that.

935
00:51:18,680 --> 00:51:20,280
Speaker 3: The emotion really came through.

936
00:51:20,840 --> 00:51:24,880
Speaker 1: So that was a lot. What does it all mean? Well?

937
00:51:25,200 --> 00:51:29,040
Speaker 1: This month in Texas, Texas SB seventeen went into effect,

938
00:51:29,040 --> 00:51:31,880
Speaker 1: which is a law that requires public universities in Texas

939
00:51:31,920 --> 00:51:36,000
Speaker 1: to no longer have offices dedicated to DII or employees

940
00:51:36,040 --> 00:51:39,239
Speaker 1: focused specifically on that purpose. Higher education workers and job

941
00:51:39,239 --> 00:51:42,200
Speaker 1: applicants can also no longer sign any statements dedicated to

942
00:51:42,239 --> 00:51:45,880
Speaker 1: upholding any kind of DEI standard or attend trainings that

943
00:51:45,960 --> 00:51:50,040
Speaker 1: reference race, color, ethnicity, gender identity, or sexual orientation. According

944
00:51:50,040 --> 00:51:52,760
Speaker 1: to this law. DeSantis signed a similar law in Florida

945
00:51:52,840 --> 00:51:55,759
Speaker 1: last year too. So I think the next iteration of

946
00:51:55,800 --> 00:51:59,640
Speaker 1: this is going to be corporations and brands facing pressure

947
00:52:00,120 --> 00:52:03,319
Speaker 1: to drop or distance themselves from DEI. I don't know

948
00:52:03,320 --> 00:52:06,680
Speaker 1: if you saw, but the former CEO of the active

949
00:52:06,680 --> 00:52:11,040
Speaker 1: wear brand Lululemon basically said like, oh, we have to

950
00:52:11,040 --> 00:52:12,680
Speaker 1: get away from DEI. You need to make it clear

951
00:52:12,719 --> 00:52:14,759
Speaker 1: that you don't want certain people buying your clothes, which

952
00:52:14,800 --> 00:52:16,800
Speaker 1: is like WHOA Trust and believe when I say I

953
00:52:17,000 --> 00:52:20,840
Speaker 1: will never buy another I like mission accomplished, suck is

954
00:52:20,880 --> 00:52:23,879
Speaker 1: overpriced garbage anyway, But trust and believe that my black

955
00:52:23,880 --> 00:52:25,880
Speaker 1: ass never will. You will never get a die of

956
00:52:25,920 --> 00:52:29,279
Speaker 1: my money, can do, don't got to worry about me.

957
00:52:29,600 --> 00:52:32,520
Speaker 1: Will never be buying another Lulu a Lemon item again

958
00:52:32,560 --> 00:52:33,000
Speaker 1: in my life.

959
00:52:33,080 --> 00:52:35,359
Speaker 3: Oh what a statement. I had not seen that.

960
00:52:35,640 --> 00:52:38,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, And so I think that's going to be the

961
00:52:38,920 --> 00:52:43,319
Speaker 1: next push getting brands and corporations to distance themselves. And

962
00:52:43,520 --> 00:52:46,160
Speaker 1: I think the bigger game is to make DEI, just

963
00:52:46,200 --> 00:52:49,000
Speaker 1: like with critical race theory, into a toxic brand, you know,

964
00:52:49,080 --> 00:52:52,920
Speaker 1: where anything that right wing culture warriors don't like can

965
00:52:52,960 --> 00:52:57,640
Speaker 1: be labeled DEI and automatically conjure up negative association. So

966
00:52:57,719 --> 00:53:01,480
Speaker 1: like a black woman in a leadership position DEI, a

967
00:53:01,560 --> 00:53:04,720
Speaker 1: book written by a black person on a college syllabus, DEI,

968
00:53:05,160 --> 00:53:08,200
Speaker 1: a black woman in an ad campaign DEI. And I

969
00:53:08,200 --> 00:53:12,280
Speaker 1: think the goal really is a society where marginalized people

970
00:53:12,560 --> 00:53:15,520
Speaker 1: do not hold power in civic and public life, and

971
00:53:15,600 --> 00:53:18,480
Speaker 1: any avenues where Bobby might have access to power or

972
00:53:18,480 --> 00:53:21,839
Speaker 1: support toward power are obliterated. It's the same reason why

973
00:53:21,920 --> 00:53:25,640
Speaker 1: after gutting affirmative action, Edward Blum, that right wing activist

974
00:53:25,920 --> 00:53:28,920
Speaker 1: went after funding fellowships that support black women in like

975
00:53:28,960 --> 00:53:32,960
Speaker 1: fearless fun. And I think doing this via attacks on

976
00:53:33,200 --> 00:53:37,680
Speaker 1: DEI as racist or like reverse racist or whatever just

977
00:53:37,760 --> 00:53:40,400
Speaker 1: sets up this fictitious idea that we're living in a

978
00:53:40,440 --> 00:53:44,320
Speaker 1: society where black folks are being given everything, all the power.

979
00:53:44,680 --> 00:53:48,040
Speaker 1: It is the most callous, disingenuous way of stoking the

980
00:53:48,160 --> 00:53:51,600
Speaker 1: fears and anxieties of the dominant group while they get

981
00:53:51,640 --> 00:53:55,440
Speaker 1: to continue enjoy being the dominant group and also pretending

982
00:53:55,480 --> 00:54:00,239
Speaker 1: to be underserved. But as always, those attacks always up

983
00:54:00,280 --> 00:54:03,120
Speaker 1: hurting everyone right like, they end up making us all

984
00:54:03,239 --> 00:54:05,520
Speaker 1: worse off. Ruffo has said that one of his goals

985
00:54:05,560 --> 00:54:08,600
Speaker 1: is to make DEI work at the professional level obsolute

986
00:54:08,800 --> 00:54:11,479
Speaker 1: dead end jobs. He said one goal for twenty twenty

987
00:54:11,480 --> 00:54:15,040
Speaker 1: four fifty percent net reduction of DEI jobs in corporate America.

988
00:54:15,280 --> 00:54:17,800
Speaker 1: Put the entire industry into chaos, make it a career

989
00:54:17,840 --> 00:54:21,000
Speaker 1: path to nowhere. And do you know who has held

990
00:54:21,000 --> 00:54:24,359
Speaker 1: the majority of DEI jobs in the United States? White women?

991
00:54:24,640 --> 00:54:27,439
Speaker 1: The data is very clear over the past ten years.

992
00:54:27,480 --> 00:54:30,279
Speaker 1: White women not only hold the majority of executive and

993
00:54:30,360 --> 00:54:33,840
Speaker 1: consulting DEI roles, but are also the best compensated for

994
00:54:33,920 --> 00:54:36,440
Speaker 1: this work, with the longest tenured This is according to

995
00:54:36,480 --> 00:54:38,640
Speaker 1: a write up by a partner R of Data for

996
00:54:38,760 --> 00:54:40,680
Speaker 1: Inclusive Change, which we will link to in the show notes.

997
00:54:41,120 --> 00:54:42,839
Speaker 1: And So I say all of this to say, like,

998
00:54:43,320 --> 00:54:47,560
Speaker 1: it is not just about black women. These attacks, if

999
00:54:47,680 --> 00:54:50,560
Speaker 1: left to fester, hurt all of us. And so women,

1000
00:54:51,160 --> 00:54:53,760
Speaker 1: white women, all women, all of us should be concerned

1001
00:54:53,760 --> 00:54:56,840
Speaker 1: about this because it's like Prince said, when you play me,

1002
00:54:56,960 --> 00:54:59,960
Speaker 1: you play yourself. And like if we are to if

1003
00:55:00,080 --> 00:55:04,120
Speaker 1: if he succeeds in making DEI not tenable loss a career,

1004
00:55:05,120 --> 00:55:07,560
Speaker 1: it's white women are the ones who are holding those jobs.

1005
00:55:07,800 --> 00:55:09,680
Speaker 1: You could you could ask the question as to like

1006
00:55:09,760 --> 00:55:11,600
Speaker 1: why that is that's a whole other issue, but like

1007
00:55:12,239 --> 00:55:15,600
Speaker 1: that's that's who is currently holding power in the DEI

1008
00:55:15,640 --> 00:55:17,560
Speaker 1: space currently. The data is very clear.

1009
00:55:18,040 --> 00:55:22,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, and more broadly, it harms all of us by

1010
00:55:23,320 --> 00:55:29,720
Speaker 3: excluding talented, insightful people with unique and valuable perspectives from

1011
00:55:29,920 --> 00:55:35,040
Speaker 3: conversations from positions of authority, it hurts all of us.

1012
00:55:35,520 --> 00:55:40,960
Speaker 1: That's exactly right. That like diversity and inclusion makes is

1013
00:55:41,000 --> 00:55:43,839
Speaker 1: like what makes our country good. It's what makes our

1014
00:55:43,880 --> 00:55:46,680
Speaker 1: companies good. Like not even from the level of like

1015
00:55:46,719 --> 00:55:48,839
Speaker 1: it's nice to do, which it is. It makes our

1016
00:55:48,960 --> 00:55:51,480
Speaker 1: products better, it makes our businesses better, it makes people

1017
00:55:51,520 --> 00:55:53,799
Speaker 1: more money, it makes it makes us more creative. It's

1018
00:55:53,840 --> 00:55:56,000
Speaker 1: like it's a good thing. And so I think that

1019
00:55:56,040 --> 00:55:58,359
Speaker 1: we're just in this place where it's like people have

1020
00:55:58,440 --> 00:56:02,040
Speaker 1: to decide whether or not they agree. And Mark Cuban,

1021
00:56:02,440 --> 00:56:04,719
Speaker 1: he made the point that you made. He said, the

1022
00:56:04,800 --> 00:56:08,520
Speaker 1: loss of deiphobic companies is my gain. Cuban went on

1023
00:56:08,560 --> 00:56:11,360
Speaker 1: to defend the core principles of DEI and saying, having

1024
00:56:11,400 --> 00:56:14,239
Speaker 1: a workforce that is diverse and representative of your stakeholders

1025
00:56:14,360 --> 00:56:15,960
Speaker 1: is good for business.

1026
00:56:16,200 --> 00:56:22,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, It's it's like an obvious thing. Having employees who

1027
00:56:22,680 --> 00:56:25,960
Speaker 3: are representative of the stakeholders who you're trying to serve,

1028
00:56:26,040 --> 00:56:30,520
Speaker 3: who you're trying to sell products or services to, is

1029
00:56:30,560 --> 00:56:32,719
Speaker 3: a good smart thing.

1030
00:56:32,960 --> 00:56:35,400
Speaker 1: And I can't believe that that's not clear. And I

1031
00:56:35,440 --> 00:56:38,799
Speaker 1: guess the question is, like, do these people care more

1032
00:56:38,840 --> 00:56:42,880
Speaker 1: about grievance mongerings than they do about having successful companies

1033
00:56:42,880 --> 00:56:45,680
Speaker 1: and making money. Maybe they do. When we did our

1034
00:56:45,760 --> 00:56:49,000
Speaker 1: miniseries Internet Hate Machine last year, we broke down how

1035
00:56:49,120 --> 00:56:52,120
Speaker 1: right wing grievances are weaponized into these kinds of attacks.

1036
00:56:52,440 --> 00:56:57,600
Speaker 1: Now it is long past time for institutions like corporations,

1037
00:56:57,680 --> 00:57:02,120
Speaker 1: legacy media, universities, et cetera to understand these kinds of

1038
00:57:02,160 --> 00:57:04,719
Speaker 1: attacks and how they work. It has been going on

1039
00:57:04,800 --> 00:57:07,279
Speaker 1: for so long. It is time to figure out the

1040
00:57:07,320 --> 00:57:09,400
Speaker 1: game and figure out what you were going to do.

1041
00:57:09,440 --> 00:57:11,560
Speaker 1: It is past time to figure out the game and

1042
00:57:11,560 --> 00:57:14,720
Speaker 1: figure out what you're going to do. These same disingenuous

1043
00:57:14,719 --> 00:57:18,680
Speaker 1: tactics have been used too many times for these institutions

1044
00:57:18,720 --> 00:57:22,080
Speaker 1: to continue to feign ignorance and powerlessness and not know

1045
00:57:22,200 --> 00:57:25,160
Speaker 1: how to respond when they happen and to not be

1046
00:57:25,360 --> 00:57:29,080
Speaker 1: anticipating them. One of the biggest takeaways that I had

1047
00:57:29,120 --> 00:57:33,320
Speaker 1: from that series is that you cannot capitulate to these people.

1048
00:57:33,680 --> 00:57:36,080
Speaker 1: If you give them an inch, they will smell blood

1049
00:57:36,080 --> 00:57:37,800
Speaker 1: in the water and they will know they can take

1050
00:57:37,880 --> 00:57:40,640
Speaker 1: a mile. Gay announced her resignation like a couple of

1051
00:57:40,720 --> 00:57:43,840
Speaker 1: days ago. Ackman has already called for the entire board

1052
00:57:43,880 --> 00:57:46,760
Speaker 1: of Harvard to resign right after that, even after he

1053
00:57:46,840 --> 00:57:50,320
Speaker 1: got his way and she resigned. When trans influencer Dylan

1054
00:57:50,360 --> 00:57:55,160
Speaker 1: mulvaney made that one video for bud Light, the company apologized,

1055
00:57:55,560 --> 00:57:59,400
Speaker 1: basically threw her to the wolves, never called her, never

1056
00:57:59,400 --> 00:58:00,920
Speaker 1: even sent her an email like how you do and

1057
00:58:01,400 --> 00:58:05,600
Speaker 1: let her have to deal with death threats, have to

1058
00:58:05,680 --> 00:58:08,400
Speaker 1: leave her home. All of that, they parted ways with

1059
00:58:08,480 --> 00:58:11,840
Speaker 1: employees who had been involved, and these people were still

1060
00:58:11,920 --> 00:58:15,080
Speaker 1: not satisfied. They would after target for Pride merchandise nets.

1061
00:58:15,240 --> 00:58:18,800
Speaker 1: There is no pleasing these people because they are bad actors.

1062
00:58:19,400 --> 00:58:22,760
Speaker 1: So if you relent at all, they will know like, oh,

1063
00:58:22,880 --> 00:58:25,800
Speaker 1: this is a winning strategy. Let's just keep doing it.

1064
00:58:26,280 --> 00:58:29,560
Speaker 1: So it is time to stand by your staff, stand

1065
00:58:29,600 --> 00:58:32,720
Speaker 1: by your people, and say listen, if you come for them,

1066
00:58:33,000 --> 00:58:37,400
Speaker 1: we will not budge go pound sand and to legacy media.

1067
00:58:37,560 --> 00:58:40,040
Speaker 1: You do not have to be Chris Ruffo's bitch. Like

1068
00:58:40,160 --> 00:58:43,280
Speaker 1: you can make a different choice. Victor Ray, who wrote

1069
00:58:43,320 --> 00:58:45,680
Speaker 1: the book on critical race theory, put it so beautifully.

1070
00:58:45,720 --> 00:58:49,120
Speaker 1: He said, accepting bad faith framing is a choice to

1071
00:58:49,200 --> 00:58:53,080
Speaker 1: ally oneself with bad faith actors, and that is absolutely

1072
00:58:53,560 --> 00:58:56,800
Speaker 1: the truth. And yeah, I guess that's really where we

1073
00:58:56,840 --> 00:58:59,840
Speaker 1: gotta leave it. Like I really hope that we see

1074
00:58:59,840 --> 00:59:03,360
Speaker 1: in institutions who do have power really preparing for this

1075
00:59:03,440 --> 00:59:07,840
Speaker 1: and understanding this. And yeah, I mean it's not how

1076
00:59:07,840 --> 00:59:11,120
Speaker 1: I wanted to start my twenty twenty four with a

1077
00:59:11,160 --> 00:59:15,160
Speaker 1: whole massive national conversation about how black women are unqualified.

1078
00:59:16,200 --> 00:59:17,880
Speaker 1: You know, when this was all going down, one of

1079
00:59:17,880 --> 00:59:20,800
Speaker 1: my mentors, Sabrina, and I were talking about like what

1080
00:59:20,800 --> 00:59:24,160
Speaker 1: we should be doing in this moment, like should prominent

1081
00:59:24,360 --> 00:59:28,360
Speaker 1: visible black women be like publishing an open letter putting

1082
00:59:28,520 --> 00:59:31,640
Speaker 1: legacy media on blast and being like we see this happening,

1083
00:59:31,680 --> 00:59:33,080
Speaker 1: we see you doing it, and we won't take it.

1084
00:59:33,560 --> 00:59:36,000
Speaker 1: And I thought about this for a minute, and I

1085
00:59:36,040 --> 00:59:39,480
Speaker 1: was like, you know, all I really want to do

1086
00:59:39,640 --> 00:59:43,200
Speaker 1: is like exist and do my work and do my job,

1087
00:59:43,480 --> 00:59:45,560
Speaker 1: and that's it, and just like live our life, like

1088
00:59:45,600 --> 00:59:47,560
Speaker 1: live my life. All I want to do is live

1089
00:59:47,600 --> 00:59:50,840
Speaker 1: my life the same as anyone else without these attacks.

1090
00:59:51,200 --> 00:59:53,400
Speaker 1: When we get into leadership positions, all I want to

1091
00:59:53,440 --> 00:59:55,720
Speaker 1: do is know that I'm not going to be tossed

1092
00:59:55,760 --> 01:00:00,800
Speaker 1: out like garbage as collateral damage when the attack right.

1093
01:00:01,240 --> 01:00:04,720
Speaker 1: I just want my humanity recognize. And so I don't

1094
01:00:04,720 --> 01:00:08,240
Speaker 1: know the idea of like putting out a letter saying this.

1095
01:00:08,720 --> 01:00:11,920
Speaker 1: I just think in twenty twenty four we should be

1096
01:00:11,960 --> 01:00:14,600
Speaker 1: done having to advocate for our humanity in this way

1097
01:00:14,640 --> 01:00:19,200
Speaker 1: in public, and yet here we are. So I don't know.

1098
01:00:24,720 --> 01:00:26,840
Speaker 1: If you're looking for ways to support the show, check

1099
01:00:26,840 --> 01:00:29,480
Speaker 1: out our merch store at tangoti dot com slash store.

1100
01:00:30,680 --> 01:00:32,720
Speaker 1: Got a story about an interesting thing in tech, or

1101
01:00:32,800 --> 01:00:34,640
Speaker 1: just want to say hi? You can reach us at

1102
01:00:34,640 --> 01:00:37,360
Speaker 1: Hello at tegodi dot com. You can also find transcripts

1103
01:00:37,360 --> 01:00:39,840
Speaker 1: for today's episode at tengody dot com. There Are No

1104
01:00:39,920 --> 01:00:41,960
Speaker 1: Girls on the Internet was created by me Bridget Toad.

1105
01:00:42,360 --> 01:00:45,520
Speaker 1: It's a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative edited by

1106
01:00:45,600 --> 01:00:49,640
Speaker 1: Joey pat Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer. Tari Harrison

1107
01:00:49,720 --> 01:00:52,480
Speaker 1: is our producer and sound engineer. Michael Almada is our

1108
01:00:52,520 --> 01:00:55,600
Speaker 1: contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridge Toad. If you want

1109
01:00:55,600 --> 01:00:58,000
Speaker 1: to help us grow, rate and review us on Apple podcasts.

1110
01:00:58,760 --> 01:01:01,600
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeart Radio, check out the iHeartRadio app,

1111
01:01:01,640 --> 01:01:09,680
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. MHM