WEBVTT - From the Vault: Musical Frisson 0:00:05.680 --> 0:00:08.119 Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name 0:00:08.160 --> 0:00:11.240 is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and it's Saturday. 0:00:11.280 --> 0:00:14.440 Time for an episode from the Vault. This one originally 0:00:14.480 --> 0:00:18.759 aired June tenth, and this is the episode that our 0:00:18.800 --> 0:00:22.560 producer Seth and I did on musical free Son that 0:00:22.680 --> 0:00:25.280 feeling when you get shivers or goose bumps from listening 0:00:25.320 --> 0:00:31.920 to music. Uh so, yeah, we hope you enjoy. Welcome 0:00:32.000 --> 0:00:41.800 to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, production of My Heart Radio. Hello, 0:00:41.840 --> 0:00:44.640 and welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. I'm Joe 0:00:44.720 --> 0:00:47.519 McCormick and my regular co host Robert Lamb is not 0:00:47.680 --> 0:00:50.239 with us today. He is out on vacation, but as 0:00:50.280 --> 0:00:52.680 a special treat I am being joined by our in 0:00:52.840 --> 0:00:57.640 house audio sorcerer, Seth Nicholas Johnson. Say Hi Seth, Hello, everyone, 0:00:57.800 --> 0:01:00.920 it's me Seth. How are you doing today? I'm doing great, 0:01:01.040 --> 0:01:02.880 happy to be on this side of the microphone, happy 0:01:02.960 --> 0:01:05.600 to help out with while Roberts out of town. And 0:01:05.640 --> 0:01:09.320 I'm very happy, um with the subject matter that you 0:01:09.400 --> 0:01:11.840 chose today. So I'm looking forward to this right We're 0:01:11.840 --> 0:01:15.800 so we're doing a musical themed episode today. Um, because Seth, 0:01:15.959 --> 0:01:18.880 you host another podcast. Do you want to tell listeners 0:01:18.880 --> 0:01:21.200 who are not familiar with the Record Store Society what 0:01:21.319 --> 0:01:24.360 it's all about? Surely? Um yeah. So obviously the main 0:01:24.760 --> 0:01:27.160 chunk of my time I spend producing this show stuff 0:01:27.200 --> 0:01:30.000 to blow your mind. But I also do a weekly 0:01:30.080 --> 0:01:32.760 show with that I host with my co host, Tara Davies, 0:01:32.880 --> 0:01:36.399 and it's called Record Store Society, and um, basically, it's 0:01:36.400 --> 0:01:40.760 a podcast for music nerds, by music nerds, and it's um, 0:01:40.760 --> 0:01:43.960 full blown, just a talk show where people can just 0:01:44.000 --> 0:01:47.480 share recommendations things we've been listening to lately, what we love, 0:01:47.840 --> 0:01:50.360 play some music based games that you can't really play 0:01:50.400 --> 0:01:53.520 with other people because you're going very specific and very 0:01:53.600 --> 0:01:57.760 nerdy about your music tastes. But we pretend we're in 0:01:57.800 --> 0:02:00.200 a record store the whole time. That's the gimmick. That's 0:02:00.200 --> 0:02:02.880 the fun little gimmick where we just uh uh yeah, 0:02:02.920 --> 0:02:05.400 there's we have sound effects and all of our guests 0:02:05.400 --> 0:02:07.560 are customers and me and my co host are the 0:02:07.600 --> 0:02:10.880 employees of the record store and uh yeah, it's fun. 0:02:10.919 --> 0:02:13.000 It's called Record Store Society and you can find it 0:02:13.080 --> 0:02:15.840 wherever you find your podcasts. It's a great show, folks. 0:02:15.880 --> 0:02:18.960 I personally recommended in fact, Rob and I did a 0:02:19.000 --> 0:02:22.079 guest episode where we appeared on Record Store Society one time. 0:02:22.480 --> 0:02:23.959 How long ago is that now? Is a couple of 0:02:23.960 --> 0:02:26.359 months ago where we ended up talking. Yeah, it was 0:02:26.480 --> 0:02:30.240 music videos. Yes, it was a great one and m Yeah, 0:02:30.280 --> 0:02:32.360 tons of fun everyone. If if anyone's in the mood 0:02:32.400 --> 0:02:36.200 for music talk, if you're looking for new music recommendations, 0:02:36.520 --> 0:02:38.480 or you just feel kind of lonely that you don't 0:02:38.480 --> 0:02:40.840 none of your friends, will you know, go on a 0:02:40.919 --> 0:02:44.119 deep dive about, you know, bootleg Neil Young albums. Then 0:02:44.280 --> 0:02:47.520 you know you can listen to Record Store Society and 0:02:47.520 --> 0:02:51.280 well we'll scratch that itch. Speaking of bootleg Neil Young albums, 0:02:51.280 --> 0:02:53.280 you ever see that video where he's like going around 0:02:53.280 --> 0:02:56.480 in record stores and he's finding bootlegs and he's like 0:02:56.720 --> 0:03:01.040 taking them without paying. Yes, I mean you love it. 0:03:01.120 --> 0:03:04.040 You know, there's something about a musical curmudgeon that always 0:03:04.040 --> 0:03:06.280 makes me very happy. And he's a good one. He's 0:03:06.280 --> 0:03:10.240 a very good musical curmudgeon. Yeah, yeah, it's great. He 0:03:10.280 --> 0:03:12.000 like takes it up. He's like, I'm on this record 0:03:12.040 --> 0:03:15.720 and I don't know what this is. Um, But so anyway, 0:03:15.880 --> 0:03:19.400 because Seth of the Record Store Society is joining us today. 0:03:19.720 --> 0:03:21.720 We thought we would talk about a musical topic, and 0:03:21.720 --> 0:03:24.120 I think we've got a really interesting one that ties 0:03:24.240 --> 0:03:29.359 up with neuroscience, big puzzles about how our brains work, emotions, 0:03:29.440 --> 0:03:33.240 the reward system in the brain, music and aesthetics and 0:03:33.480 --> 0:03:36.800 fear and UH and the autonomic nervous system and all that, 0:03:37.240 --> 0:03:40.440 and so what we're talking about today is those moments 0:03:40.520 --> 0:03:46.040 when music is not just fun or interesting or intellectually pleasurable, 0:03:46.520 --> 0:03:49.640 but when musical pleasure sort of grabs you at the 0:03:49.720 --> 0:03:52.360 level of the body, when it sends a shiver down 0:03:52.400 --> 0:03:56.360 your spine, or when it causes tingling on your skin 0:03:56.480 --> 0:03:58.960 or even feeling like it's under your skin, or when 0:03:58.960 --> 0:04:01.520 it raises goose by umps on your forearms or on 0:04:01.600 --> 0:04:04.760 your neck, or when it puts a lump in your throat. Today, 0:04:04.760 --> 0:04:07.760 we're going to be talking about what is sometimes called 0:04:08.040 --> 0:04:12.040 free san or frisson uh in the words of one review. 0:04:12.040 --> 0:04:14.480 We're going to be looking at today it is a 0:04:14.560 --> 0:04:20.560 transcendent psycho physiological moment of musical experience. It's the it's 0:04:20.560 --> 0:04:23.359 the moment where music grabs you by the body and 0:04:23.480 --> 0:04:26.720 not just the mind. Now, Sathe you actually suggested this 0:04:26.760 --> 0:04:29.159 topic when we were batting around ideas about what to 0:04:29.200 --> 0:04:31.480 do today. Do you remember how this came to your mind? 0:04:31.560 --> 0:04:36.480 What's the story here? Um, it's a concept I very much. Um, 0:04:36.839 --> 0:04:39.880 I've done mild research into into the past. I'm a 0:04:39.920 --> 0:04:43.440 person who feels for song or however we're going to pronounce. 0:04:43.600 --> 0:04:46.679 How do you think you're going to pronounce it today, Joe, Well, dang, 0:04:46.720 --> 0:04:49.400 I've already been thinking, so I've been saying in my head. 0:04:49.480 --> 0:04:52.919 Free song comes from the French comes from a French 0:04:52.960 --> 0:04:55.320 word meaning shiver, shiver is a now and like he 0:04:55.360 --> 0:04:59.040 gave me a shiver. But but I've seen plenty of 0:04:59.120 --> 0:05:03.160 people also all it frissan so or frossan. So we're 0:05:03.160 --> 0:05:05.440 probably gonna jump around, but I'll try to be as 0:05:05.480 --> 0:05:07.839 annoying as possible about it. But I'll try to go 0:05:07.920 --> 0:05:11.240 with frees on as well. Um yeah, yeah, and um 0:05:11.360 --> 0:05:15.600 aesthetic chills is the is my favorite definition of freesan. 0:05:16.240 --> 0:05:18.800 And um, it's something I experience a lot. And as 0:05:18.839 --> 0:05:22.359 a big music fan, I've often thought, am I a 0:05:22.400 --> 0:05:27.279 big music fan because I acutely feel freesan very often? 0:05:28.000 --> 0:05:33.040 Or do I experience frees on often because I'm such 0:05:33.080 --> 0:05:34.800 a big music fan and I spend so much of 0:05:34.800 --> 0:05:37.080 my time listening to and thinking about it and diving 0:05:37.080 --> 0:05:39.520 deep and spending all my money on records and blah 0:05:39.600 --> 0:05:42.320 blah blah. Like it's a Chicken or the egg situation, 0:05:42.320 --> 0:05:44.039 which I don't think we can ever have an answer to, 0:05:44.720 --> 0:05:49.359 but it's an interesting idea. And um, I've also not 0:05:49.480 --> 0:05:53.080 too long ago learned that, of course, not everyone experiences it, 0:05:53.240 --> 0:05:56.520 which is another very strange aspect. When you feel something 0:05:56.560 --> 0:06:00.000 that you enjoy, like just like whether it be you know, um, 0:06:00.720 --> 0:06:03.520 the taste of something sour and you go, oh, other 0:06:03.520 --> 0:06:05.719 people don't taste sour, and you would go, wait a minute. 0:06:05.880 --> 0:06:08.599 I thought everyone had this, And that's that's kind of 0:06:08.640 --> 0:06:10.800 what I felt when I learned that frees on isn't 0:06:10.800 --> 0:06:15.880 something that everyone experiences. And anyway, you you're so good 0:06:15.920 --> 0:06:18.599 at researching things, I thought you would uh answer some 0:06:18.720 --> 0:06:21.960 questions for me. So I'm I'm I'm ecstatic with with 0:06:22.000 --> 0:06:24.560 what you've looked into already. Well, I don't think we're 0:06:24.560 --> 0:06:27.360 going to have full closure on all of the causes 0:06:27.640 --> 0:06:31.000 of this of this phenomenon today, but we can raise 0:06:31.080 --> 0:06:34.320 some questions and bring up some findings that point off 0:06:34.360 --> 0:06:36.560 an interesting directions This is one of those that I 0:06:36.560 --> 0:06:39.280 think is still somewhat of a puzzle. But there are 0:06:39.279 --> 0:06:41.040 a lot of pieces of it that are on the 0:06:41.040 --> 0:06:43.839 table now and you can arrange them around in different 0:06:43.880 --> 0:06:46.159 ways and get some ideas of what to do. But 0:06:46.279 --> 0:06:48.800 maybe it would be good to start describing really strong 0:06:48.880 --> 0:06:53.200 examples that unfortunately necessarily, I think these are going to 0:06:53.279 --> 0:06:56.640 have to be subjective. That we will talk about examples 0:06:56.680 --> 0:06:59.200 that affect us personally. But one thing you'll find is 0:06:59.200 --> 0:07:03.800 that you know, musical passages are especially prone to eliciting 0:07:03.800 --> 0:07:07.080 free song in many people, but there's nothing that's universal, 0:07:07.200 --> 0:07:09.480 So what gets you might not get somebody else, and 0:07:09.600 --> 0:07:13.560 vice versa. Um. But I I specifically have a memory 0:07:14.000 --> 0:07:16.920 from when I was in college of I guess a 0:07:16.960 --> 0:07:18.920 couple of days, or maybe it was even a stretch 0:07:18.960 --> 0:07:22.360 of a week where I was just listening to one 0:07:22.640 --> 0:07:26.520 song over and over again. I would like, maybe multiple 0:07:26.560 --> 0:07:29.679 times a day, put on my headphones, turn the volume 0:07:29.800 --> 0:07:32.600 way up, and just listen to the same song over 0:07:32.640 --> 0:07:35.080 and over again with my head bent down and my 0:07:35.160 --> 0:07:38.160 eyes closed. It was a song by by Rout that 0:07:38.720 --> 0:07:41.640 is called non Taste, and it has this moment where 0:07:41.720 --> 0:07:43.960 you know it starts off kind of quiet, and then 0:07:44.040 --> 0:07:47.640 suddenly it becomes loud. The rest of the band comes in, 0:07:47.680 --> 0:07:51.040 the rhythm kicks in, UH, and there's a there's clicking percussion, 0:07:51.080 --> 0:08:06.000 and and when that happens, I would just feel these 0:08:06.120 --> 0:08:09.640 waves of tingling and goose bumps, and I would do 0:08:09.680 --> 0:08:12.240 it over and over again, almost like I was addicted 0:08:12.280 --> 0:08:15.000 to it. It sort of colors my memory of my 0:08:15.080 --> 0:08:18.760 experiences of you know, that summer two thousand whatever it was. UH. 0:08:18.800 --> 0:08:20.800 And another thing is I was thinking, I still really 0:08:20.800 --> 0:08:24.000 love music, but I don't really do things like that anymore. 0:08:24.040 --> 0:08:27.040 I would sometimes do that with songs, especially when I 0:08:27.080 --> 0:08:29.120 was in high school and college. And it makes me 0:08:29.240 --> 0:08:32.839 kind of wonder if age might be a factor in 0:08:32.840 --> 0:08:35.600 in how often and how intensely you experience free song, 0:08:35.800 --> 0:08:39.080 or in how motivated you are to have the experience 0:08:39.120 --> 0:08:41.280 again and again. How does that line up with your 0:08:41.280 --> 0:08:45.440 experience It does, However, I would say that I don't 0:08:45.480 --> 0:08:50.040 believe mine has waned at all, and I'm not really sure. 0:08:50.080 --> 0:08:53.520 I can't explain that either. I can't explain why, um 0:08:54.040 --> 0:08:57.200 something that like when I was in like middle school 0:08:57.200 --> 0:08:59.480 and high school, I was always the kid with the 0:08:59.520 --> 0:09:02.319 largest CD collection. I had like the giant binder full 0:09:02.360 --> 0:09:05.040 of CDs and it was the only thing I cared about, 0:09:05.200 --> 0:09:07.160 and blah blah blah. And you know that at that 0:09:07.240 --> 0:09:11.160 time when music obsession is very very common. I think 0:09:11.200 --> 0:09:16.079 most people feel music obsession during those teenage through high school. Yeah, 0:09:16.080 --> 0:09:19.600 I guess it's all teenage years. I often had people 0:09:19.640 --> 0:09:21.960 tell me, oh, when I was your age, I love 0:09:22.040 --> 0:09:24.680 music too, you'll grow out of it. I heard that 0:09:24.760 --> 0:09:27.320 again and again and again, and here I am knocking 0:09:27.320 --> 0:09:30.560 on middle age, and I haven't really changed too much, 0:09:30.640 --> 0:09:32.400 and I just kind of became a different kind of 0:09:32.480 --> 0:09:36.080 music fan, I guess, which is now why I host 0:09:36.120 --> 0:09:38.840 that music show too, and have hosted other music podcasts 0:09:38.840 --> 0:09:40.760 in my life. And that's why I run a record label. 0:09:40.800 --> 0:09:42.880 It's why I'm a musician. It's it's all these things 0:09:42.880 --> 0:09:46.840 that I do and really enjoy. So yes, I I 0:09:46.920 --> 0:09:49.200 fully agree with you that there is this thing that 0:09:49.320 --> 0:09:52.040 it must be something like a dopamine release. And we'll 0:09:52.040 --> 0:09:54.400 get more into like the specific details about what's happening 0:09:54.480 --> 0:09:58.360 chemically and all that kind of stuff later, But no, 0:09:58.480 --> 0:10:00.599 I I think I still feel it pretty acutely. I 0:10:00.679 --> 0:10:04.440 think I still um do obsess over songs far too much, 0:10:04.480 --> 0:10:06.960 and talk about music far too much, and go into 0:10:06.960 --> 0:10:10.559 all those things. And um, here's another thing that I'm 0:10:10.559 --> 0:10:13.000 not sure if we'll get too later. You and I 0:10:13.040 --> 0:10:15.600 are also both musicians in our own ways. You know, 0:10:15.679 --> 0:10:20.440 we are people who write, record and play music. Um, 0:10:20.480 --> 0:10:23.920 extremely amateur on my part, but yes, but that's still 0:10:24.160 --> 0:10:26.600 something that not a lot of people do. And I 0:10:26.640 --> 0:10:30.360 wonder if being a musician has something to do with 0:10:30.400 --> 0:10:32.320 this as well, something that has to do with that 0:10:32.400 --> 0:10:36.720 wiring your brain, that that self serving dopamine plunger, That 0:10:36.720 --> 0:10:39.320 that being a rat with a test and hitting the 0:10:39.320 --> 0:10:42.760 little buttons you can get your little food pellets. I 0:10:42.800 --> 0:10:45.280 can't answer these questions, but that's something that makes me 0:10:45.360 --> 0:10:47.880 think of sometimes when I'm playing something over and over 0:10:47.920 --> 0:10:49.959 and over again, whether I'm listening to it or with 0:10:50.000 --> 0:10:52.839 my hand I'm playing on a musical instrument, I think 0:10:52.840 --> 0:10:55.120 about that rats getting a food pellet. Like you're listening 0:10:55.120 --> 0:10:56.720 to that Bay Roots song, you know, it's just like 0:10:57.120 --> 0:11:00.520 and one more please and one more please. I don't know, 0:11:00.800 --> 0:11:02.760 I was trying to think of other songs that I mean, 0:11:02.760 --> 0:11:04.520 I know they're there are tons that are just not 0:11:04.600 --> 0:11:06.400 coming to mind, but I was making a list while 0:11:06.400 --> 0:11:09.200 we were getting ready to record this of moments and 0:11:09.280 --> 0:11:12.880 songs that I know regularly caused Free song for me. 0:11:13.400 --> 0:11:15.320 One is another one I was thinking of is the 0:11:15.360 --> 0:11:18.679 pre chorus in the song Alex Chilton by the Replacements. 0:11:18.720 --> 0:11:21.080 Do you know the part I'm talking about where the 0:11:21.080 --> 0:11:24.199 the verse transitions to suddenly the background harmonies come in, 0:11:24.400 --> 0:11:27.040 coinciding with the lines of the lyrics Children by the 0:11:27.080 --> 0:11:41.079 Millions sing for Alex Chilton on that party always does 0:11:41.080 --> 0:11:43.760 it for me? Um. I was also thinking about there 0:11:43.920 --> 0:11:48.240 is a there's an awesome soul song called into Something 0:11:48.360 --> 0:11:52.120 Can't Shake Loose by ov Right where I experienced Free 0:11:52.120 --> 0:11:55.559 song multiple points in the song, but especially as the 0:11:55.800 --> 0:11:59.040 intro has these chord changes on the piano along with 0:11:59.559 --> 0:12:04.400 uh sort of plaintive vocals uh cycling through the same lyrics, 0:12:04.840 --> 0:12:07.400 but with with these chord changes leading up to when 0:12:07.400 --> 0:12:10.040 the rhythm kicks in and the strings come in. Never 0:12:10.360 --> 0:12:26.080 never will a game saying loo no and uh yeah 0:12:26.160 --> 0:12:28.839 chills all over from it. I mean, I I think 0:12:29.320 --> 0:12:33.160 if you experience this, there definitely um high points that 0:12:33.200 --> 0:12:35.640 you can always remember. Like off off top of my head, 0:12:35.679 --> 0:12:39.800 there are always a couple of really strong examples UM, 0:12:39.880 --> 0:12:43.200 and perhaps some of these examples that we're listing, we'll 0:12:43.200 --> 0:12:47.120 be able to actually somewhat dissect and understand why these 0:12:47.160 --> 0:12:50.360 examples hold so strong for us. UM. There's a song 0:12:50.400 --> 0:12:53.960 called Modern World by Wolf Parade where basically the entire 0:12:54.080 --> 0:12:58.280 second half of the song is this building extended chorus. 0:13:00.080 --> 0:13:09.680 Ye we're just like you know, it's a it's repetitive, 0:13:10.200 --> 0:13:13.839 but maybe like every bar to another instrument is added, 0:13:13.880 --> 0:13:16.959 another element is added, and then like you're you're I 0:13:17.400 --> 0:13:20.640 I literally feel chills thinking about it right now because 0:13:20.640 --> 0:13:24.720 I can hear those notes in my head and there's 0:13:24.760 --> 0:13:27.960 something to do with pattern that really really brings you 0:13:28.040 --> 0:13:31.240 home and expectation. Um. There's there's also this really great 0:13:31.280 --> 0:13:35.960 song UM by Animal Collective called Banshee Beat that's very slow, 0:13:36.240 --> 0:13:40.120 very very very UM. It's a it's a languid song, 0:13:40.240 --> 0:13:43.280 you know, very stretched out, and then every once in 0:13:43.320 --> 0:13:45.320 a while, the lead singer A V. Taire just hits 0:13:45.320 --> 0:13:59.160 these notes where he says swimming pool feel, and it's 0:13:59.160 --> 0:14:01.680 like it erupts out of him like a volcano would 0:14:01.800 --> 0:14:05.800 erupt lava. And it's though those moments as well, they're 0:14:05.840 --> 0:14:08.560 there there there, I mean, and I also do think that, 0:14:08.600 --> 0:14:12.199 like you were saying before, it's very subjective. UM. For example, 0:14:12.240 --> 0:14:14.240 when I was talking about this with my wife Lizzie 0:14:14.320 --> 0:14:18.160 last night, and she showed me a Loofer Janya song 0:14:18.720 --> 0:14:20.960 and I was like, oh, yeah, I know that song, 0:14:21.000 --> 0:14:22.840 and she's like, that's the one for me, that's the 0:14:22.840 --> 0:14:25.080 one that gives me the chills. And I'm like, not 0:14:25.280 --> 0:14:27.560 a great song, but I've never felt it for that 0:14:27.760 --> 0:14:29.880 and and so so I think you are correct where 0:14:29.880 --> 0:14:34.800 it is. Just it's a subjective feeling built into us individually, 0:14:34.960 --> 0:14:38.320 and sometimes it's shared, but I think quite often it's not. 0:14:38.480 --> 0:14:41.240 I think it's very personal most of the time. Yeah, 0:14:41.240 --> 0:14:44.520 it's an interesting phenomenon that seems to involve both cognitive 0:14:44.560 --> 0:14:48.280 and emotional elements. Like it's cognitive in that uh sort 0:14:48.280 --> 0:14:51.520 of sort of knowledge and context matters, and like it 0:14:51.520 --> 0:14:53.920 it matters how much attention you're paying to the music, 0:14:54.600 --> 0:14:57.280 Like music that's on in the background is usually unlikely 0:14:57.320 --> 0:14:58.760 to cause free song. I don't know if you have 0:14:58.800 --> 0:15:02.480 the same experience. It's especially when you're really listening actively 0:15:02.600 --> 0:15:06.240 that it happens, especially at higher volume. UM. But the 0:15:06.280 --> 0:15:09.040 other thing is that it sometimes it gets the better 0:15:09.120 --> 0:15:11.920 of you, or at least in my experience, I can 0:15:11.960 --> 0:15:16.680 get free song from songs that um that I don't 0:15:16.680 --> 0:15:19.520 want to be unkind, but that I might regard as 0:15:19.560 --> 0:15:23.920 sort of like blatantly manipulative or what some people might 0:15:23.960 --> 0:15:26.280 call hack songwriting. You know, I don't like to just 0:15:26.320 --> 0:15:29.440 like crap all over music, but like, there there are 0:15:29.440 --> 0:15:32.200 songs that uh, that I like, but like I acknowledge 0:15:32.240 --> 0:15:34.760 that they're very cheesy. You know, they're not necessarily they 0:15:34.760 --> 0:15:38.840 don't convey emotional maturity, and yet they still can cause 0:15:38.880 --> 0:15:42.480 this intense reaction when I was thinking of is uh. 0:15:42.520 --> 0:15:45.080 In fact, there are several songs, probably by Jim Steinman, 0:15:45.200 --> 0:15:47.520 that do this for me. Who he hits it seems 0:15:47.560 --> 0:15:49.600 like he hits all of the bars. I was thinking 0:15:49.600 --> 0:15:52.800 about the song Nowhere Fast from the movie Streets of Fire, 0:15:53.240 --> 0:15:58.040 which is intensely cheesy Jim Steinman pop songwriting, but like 0:15:58.120 --> 0:16:00.680 on the pre chorus, when you know, the high voices 0:16:00.720 --> 0:16:03.120 come in, jumps up an octave and it's really loud, 0:16:17.000 --> 0:16:20.000 and I get the shivers, and I I um, I've 0:16:20.040 --> 0:16:24.520 definitely experienced the same thing, and that line between cheesy 0:16:24.560 --> 0:16:29.520 and emotional and what your body is actually taking in 0:16:29.800 --> 0:16:33.600 as opposed to perhaps what your brain thinks differently of it, 0:16:33.720 --> 0:16:36.400 Like there's like an intellectual and an emotional place where 0:16:36.400 --> 0:16:39.640 it hits you. And sometimes I'm not even sure if 0:16:39.680 --> 0:16:44.480 this is true. Um there's a feeling of embarrassment almost 0:16:44.840 --> 0:16:48.720 for the performer. And then you think to yourself, are 0:16:48.760 --> 0:16:51.240 these chills that I'm feeling part of free san or 0:16:51.280 --> 0:16:53.960 are these chills perhaps some sort of like almost like 0:16:53.960 --> 0:16:57.720 a cringe thing. And I think it's usually free song. 0:16:57.840 --> 0:17:01.440 I don't think it's usual be embarrassment, but they're they're 0:17:01.520 --> 0:17:05.119 They're not too good for Jim Steinmann exactly, but I 0:17:05.200 --> 0:17:07.560 do think they are like somehow, perhaps like neighbors in 0:17:07.600 --> 0:17:11.040 a way. And I think there is something about emotional 0:17:11.080 --> 0:17:17.200 poll compared with intellectual poll, and them working in tandem 0:17:17.480 --> 0:17:21.720 can create this emotion becauseuse at the end of the day, 0:17:21.760 --> 0:17:25.120 a lot of music is just math. It's a lot 0:17:25.160 --> 0:17:29.080 of patterns, it's a lot of um time signatures, it's 0:17:29.080 --> 0:17:31.439 a lot of you know, hitting things at the correct time. 0:17:32.280 --> 0:17:37.720 And so in addition to that, there's that's the intellectual side, 0:17:38.000 --> 0:17:41.320 and then there's the performance aspect, which brings an emotional side, 0:17:41.320 --> 0:17:43.919 and that can I I am going down a rabbit 0:17:43.920 --> 0:17:46.080 hole here. But I think you understand what I'm saying. 0:17:46.200 --> 0:17:50.359 Oh yeah, yeah, totally. UM. One last example for people 0:17:50.400 --> 0:17:52.440 to think about, maybe before we move on to UH, 0:17:52.480 --> 0:17:55.200 to dissecting the concept a little bit more is UH. 0:17:55.440 --> 0:17:57.880 This is one example I came across by way of 0:17:57.920 --> 0:18:01.040 a researcher named Matt Sacks. I was watching an interview 0:18:01.080 --> 0:18:03.480 with him that I found on the internet and UH 0:18:03.520 --> 0:18:07.679 and he mentioned that in demonstrating musical free song in 0:18:07.760 --> 0:18:12.480 his lectures, he used an isolated track of the background 0:18:12.560 --> 0:18:15.440 vocals from the song Gimme Shelter by the Rolling Stones. 0:18:15.520 --> 0:18:18.360 And those background vocals are sung by a singer named 0:18:18.400 --> 0:18:22.240 Mary Clayton. And when you when you when I hear 0:18:22.320 --> 0:18:24.640 them in the song, I mean, I love Gimme Shelter. 0:18:24.720 --> 0:18:27.440 It's classic rock song and it's great. But the song 0:18:27.480 --> 0:18:31.600 itself does not give me chills. However, the isolated background 0:18:31.720 --> 0:18:35.520 vocals by Mary Clayton absolutely give me chills, it all 0:18:35.600 --> 0:18:38.400 up and down the body. Uh. And and I think 0:18:38.440 --> 0:18:41.000 that's interesting too, that you could actually heighten the effect 0:18:41.080 --> 0:18:44.959 in some cases by removing other elements and isolating just 0:18:45.040 --> 0:18:47.760 one part of a song. Uh. And Sax has actually 0:18:47.800 --> 0:18:50.399 said in this interview, I was watching that. Um, something 0:18:50.440 --> 0:18:53.320 like nine percent of people say that this one example 0:18:53.320 --> 0:18:55.200 gives them chills. It seems to be like a sort 0:18:55.200 --> 0:18:58.080 of home run example to use. Let's try it on 0:18:58.119 --> 0:19:00.520 our audience for a seconds now. We're gonna give you 0:19:00.560 --> 0:19:05.679 the caveat here that because of legal fair use stuff, 0:19:05.720 --> 0:19:08.119 I can only play about ten seconds for you, so 0:19:08.200 --> 0:19:10.640 you may not feel it in this moment, but perhaps 0:19:10.640 --> 0:19:12.399 if you look this up on your own and listen 0:19:12.440 --> 0:19:15.360 to the full thing. However, I gotta say, um, when 0:19:15.400 --> 0:19:17.439 I listened to this track for the first time, UM, 0:19:17.520 --> 0:19:20.199 with this isolated Mary Clayton thing, it kicked in for 0:19:20.280 --> 0:19:23.359 me pretty quickly. So here, let's play a little bit 0:19:23.359 --> 0:19:38.280 of that track right now. So that's the Mary Clayton 0:19:38.520 --> 0:19:44.760 isolated vocal there and powerful. Yeah, absolutely is um. There's 0:19:44.760 --> 0:19:48.919 a lot of ways that people have described this feeling, like, like, 0:19:48.920 --> 0:19:50.719 what are a few of them? Oh? Yeah, So there 0:19:50.720 --> 0:19:53.520 are different terms people of use. Some people call it 0:19:54.200 --> 0:19:58.640 aesthetic chills. Some people say musical chills. Because obviously part 0:19:58.640 --> 0:20:01.520 of the sensation is similar aler to feeling cold, they're 0:20:01.560 --> 0:20:05.280 also somewhat different. There's a a tingling or shivering sensation 0:20:05.400 --> 0:20:09.200 that runs up different parts of the body. Different uh 0:20:09.240 --> 0:20:11.760 studies have looked at feeling this in different parts of 0:20:11.800 --> 0:20:14.159 the body, but it seems to sometimes happen in the limbs, 0:20:14.200 --> 0:20:16.280 like in the arms or legs, or up and down 0:20:16.280 --> 0:20:19.000 the spine. Of course, there is the term free so 0:20:19.119 --> 0:20:21.159 on which we've been using today, and that's from the 0:20:21.200 --> 0:20:24.439 French word meaning shiver. Uh. Some people have used the 0:20:24.560 --> 0:20:30.320 term uh skin orgasm, which that seems uh in some 0:20:30.400 --> 0:20:35.159 ways kind of kind of phenomenologically accurate with some of 0:20:35.160 --> 0:20:38.800 the sensations, but it also brings in a lot of 0:20:38.800 --> 0:20:43.360 baggage that's not that's perhaps confusing. Yeah, and in particular, um, 0:20:43.400 --> 0:20:46.040 because I've also come across that term before, and I 0:20:46.119 --> 0:20:48.920 get it in like a almost like a cute ce 0:20:48.920 --> 0:20:53.119 description kind of way. However, at least in my understanding, 0:20:53.200 --> 0:20:57.960 there's nothing really sexual associated with this phenomenon whatsoever. So 0:20:58.040 --> 0:21:00.520 it does just kind of like add another element that 0:21:00.560 --> 0:21:04.680 doesn't actually exist, at least to my understanding. Yeah, it 0:21:05.160 --> 0:21:08.240 brings in baggage that is not necessary to understand the concept, 0:21:08.280 --> 0:21:10.240 and so it's probably better not to do that one 0:21:10.240 --> 0:21:12.159 if you're trying to ask what is this thing and 0:21:12.160 --> 0:21:14.639 how can we explain it? Right. And then there's one 0:21:14.680 --> 0:21:16.439 other thing we should probably mention, just by way of 0:21:16.480 --> 0:21:18.760 saying that we're not really going to get into this today, 0:21:18.800 --> 0:21:21.520 which is the the concept of a s MR. People 0:21:21.520 --> 0:21:23.600 have asked us to talk about this on the show before. 0:21:23.720 --> 0:21:26.119 I guess we've never really gone into it in depth. 0:21:26.200 --> 0:21:29.360 It seems like this may have some kind of overlap 0:21:29.440 --> 0:21:31.760 with what we're talking about today, or at least share 0:21:31.800 --> 0:21:34.879 some boundaries, but we're just gonna bracket that as as 0:21:34.880 --> 0:21:37.680 a concept that maybe in some ways related, but it's 0:21:37.720 --> 0:21:40.639 different from what we're talking about. Rights Anecdotally, I can 0:21:40.640 --> 0:21:46.000 say for myself, I experience freesan often and strongly, but 0:21:46.080 --> 0:21:49.200 I don't believe I've ever experienced a s MR. So 0:21:49.720 --> 0:21:52.440 I I can't explain that. But you, I completely agree 0:21:52.480 --> 0:21:55.520 with you. It's it's it's uh, could be related, but 0:21:55.560 --> 0:21:58.520 definitely bracketed and separate. Yeah, So, for the rest of 0:21:58.520 --> 0:22:00.840 this episode, we're gonna be focusing on this feeling of 0:22:00.920 --> 0:22:04.639 free so on the subject of the psychophysiological response to music, 0:22:04.680 --> 0:22:06.800 and we're gonna be asking this question of why do 0:22:06.880 --> 0:22:10.800 certain songs, specifically certain moments in songs elicit such a 0:22:10.840 --> 0:22:13.560 strong reaction in the body what does it have to 0:22:13.600 --> 0:22:16.600 do with pleasure and pain and the obscure functioning of 0:22:16.600 --> 0:22:19.800 the reward pathways in our brains? Who gets it? What 0:22:20.000 --> 0:22:23.720 causes it? And why is it pleasurable? Uh? And so yeah, 0:22:23.880 --> 0:22:26.200 I'm really glad you brought the subject up, Seth, because 0:22:26.280 --> 0:22:28.560 I think it's a fascinating puzzle, one that we probably 0:22:28.560 --> 0:22:31.960 can't conclusively answer, but we can raise findings that that 0:22:32.119 --> 0:22:34.159 point us off in a lot of interesting directions. I 0:22:34.160 --> 0:22:35.840 think maybe the listeners will have a lot of fun 0:22:35.920 --> 0:22:38.680 trying to see if they can put this puzzle together 0:22:38.760 --> 0:22:41.680 themselves as well. And I think with those puzzle pieces, 0:22:41.720 --> 0:22:46.760 it does make the experience of experiencing freezon a bit 0:22:46.800 --> 0:22:50.560 more fun when you can perhaps recognize those patterns and 0:22:50.600 --> 0:22:53.320 the music you're listening to and go, oh, perhaps that's 0:22:53.359 --> 0:22:55.880 the reason why I'm feeling this right now, and get 0:22:55.960 --> 0:22:59.320 kind of a repeatable experiment where you can go, oh, 0:22:59.560 --> 0:23:02.240 I've no is that X, Y or Z are what 0:23:02.440 --> 0:23:05.679 cause it? In my own sensations? And then it is. 0:23:05.760 --> 0:23:09.000 But it's a little self experimentational and it's honestly, I 0:23:09.000 --> 0:23:11.239 find it kind of fun. Yeah. Oh oh, It's one 0:23:11.280 --> 0:23:14.160 of the most dangerous and thrilling of states the state 0:23:14.200 --> 0:23:20.920 of being able to partially understand your own mind. Yes, okay, 0:23:20.960 --> 0:23:24.240 so looking in the phenomenology of of these music thrills 0:23:24.320 --> 0:23:28.040 of of freesan. Unfortunately, this is one of those areas 0:23:28.080 --> 0:23:31.240 where there is a bunch of existing research at this point, 0:23:31.400 --> 0:23:34.679 but a lot of it is focused on related but 0:23:34.840 --> 0:23:38.720 slightly different questions, which is just always a mess to 0:23:38.760 --> 0:23:41.920 wade through. So there be there are different studies out 0:23:41.920 --> 0:23:46.520 there that sort of use different terminology to describe the feelings. Clearly, 0:23:46.560 --> 0:23:50.520 these feelings overlap a lot. Sometimes they include or isolate 0:23:50.560 --> 0:23:53.879 different components of it. Uh. Some call it chills, some 0:23:54.000 --> 0:23:57.840 call it thrills. Some consider goose bumps a necessary part 0:23:57.920 --> 0:24:01.960 of freesan. Some don't only look at goose bumps and 0:24:02.000 --> 0:24:05.320 not these other sensations. So, unfortunately, when we're talking about 0:24:05.359 --> 0:24:07.720 the research going forward, you're just going to have to 0:24:08.440 --> 0:24:10.800 accept and keep in mind that what we're talking about 0:24:10.800 --> 0:24:14.320 here is not a unified phenomenon with a consistent definition 0:24:14.359 --> 0:24:17.320 across all these studies, but sort of a system of 0:24:17.440 --> 0:24:21.119 related phenomena with family resemblances that have been approached from 0:24:21.119 --> 0:24:23.360 a bunch of different angles. But it's clear that they're 0:24:23.400 --> 0:24:26.080 all at least somewhat related. They're all part of this 0:24:26.160 --> 0:24:30.399 intense psycho physiological response to music. So what are the 0:24:30.440 --> 0:24:34.200 actual descriptive characteristics of the Freezon response. Well, I was 0:24:34.240 --> 0:24:38.159 watching a twenty nineteen conference presentation by a researcher working 0:24:38.160 --> 0:24:40.159 in the neuroscience of music. I'm going to refer to 0:24:40.240 --> 0:24:43.119 several times throughout this episode. Her name is Psyche Louis, 0:24:43.840 --> 0:24:46.680 and she lays out some of the most common responses, 0:24:47.040 --> 0:24:50.240 breaking down responses to music into categories of the sort 0:24:50.280 --> 0:24:54.199 of abstract versus the visceral or somatic. Now, in the 0:24:54.240 --> 0:24:58.320 abstract responses to music, you've got general strong emotions, you've 0:24:58.359 --> 0:25:01.280 got the idea of feeling trans ported to another place 0:25:01.400 --> 0:25:04.480 or time. You've got the feeling of all. You've got 0:25:04.760 --> 0:25:07.640 losing your sense of time or where you are, or 0:25:07.680 --> 0:25:10.680 the avocation of memories. But then on the other hand, 0:25:10.680 --> 0:25:14.000 you've got these visceral and somatic responses to music. And 0:25:14.000 --> 0:25:16.040 these are the responses in the body, the ones we're 0:25:16.080 --> 0:25:20.840 focused on today, which are chills, goose bumps, lump in 0:25:20.880 --> 0:25:25.160 the throat, heart racing, crying, uh, feeling in the pit 0:25:25.240 --> 0:25:29.320 of the stomach, and generally the sort of pleasurable appraisal 0:25:29.600 --> 0:25:32.399 of these sensations in the body. Seth, what do you 0:25:32.440 --> 0:25:34.600 think about that list of sensations in the body? Does 0:25:35.200 --> 0:25:40.840 that ring true to you? Yeah? And um, since uh, 0:25:40.840 --> 0:25:43.360 looking into this more recently, I've actually been paying more 0:25:43.400 --> 0:25:48.560 attention to what I personally experience. And I did not 0:25:48.800 --> 0:25:52.560 realize that goose bumps were such a part of my 0:25:52.600 --> 0:25:56.000 own personal frees on experience. But while listening to so 0:25:56.080 --> 0:25:59.000 many frees on inducing tracks over the past few days 0:25:59.320 --> 0:26:01.840 and then actually like looking at my body and being like, oh, 0:26:01.880 --> 0:26:05.080 there they are, you know, there are my goose bumps, 0:26:05.840 --> 0:26:07.920 and um, so yeah, I know. I I fully believe 0:26:08.000 --> 0:26:10.679 that to be true. And UM, here's another thing that 0:26:10.920 --> 0:26:13.760 I believe is going to get a bit anecdotal when 0:26:13.800 --> 0:26:16.439 it comes to who gets free song from music. And 0:26:16.480 --> 0:26:18.960 I apologize for how many times I'm gonna say anecdotal, 0:26:19.280 --> 0:26:23.320 but this is a very anecdotal kind of phenomenon. It's 0:26:23.400 --> 0:26:26.919 it's difficult to really hammer it down. And um, depending 0:26:26.960 --> 0:26:29.600 upon the source. I've looked at a few A lot 0:26:29.600 --> 0:26:33.280 of people say about two thirds of people experience free song, 0:26:33.520 --> 0:26:35.960 but I've seen it as low as fifty five and 0:26:36.040 --> 0:26:39.760 as high as eighties six, So that's a pretty broad 0:26:39.800 --> 0:26:42.320 spectrum for how many people they believe to experience this 0:26:42.800 --> 0:26:45.840 as to the reports of the inconsistency and uh in 0:26:45.880 --> 0:26:48.040 the reported prevalence of free song. You go out and 0:26:48.119 --> 0:26:51.080 survey people say, you know, hey, how many of you, um, 0:26:51.160 --> 0:26:53.320 on average have these chills and goose bumps and all 0:26:53.359 --> 0:26:55.440 these things when you listen to music, You're gonna get 0:26:55.440 --> 0:26:59.199 different answers, probably because the question is being asked in 0:26:59.240 --> 0:27:02.119 a different way a or with different criteria. So this 0:27:02.200 --> 0:27:04.880 is one of the problems with the phenomenon not being 0:27:04.960 --> 0:27:09.480 consistently defined or measured. And plus, self diagnosis is always 0:27:09.520 --> 0:27:12.080 a pretty tricky thing in general too, with something so 0:27:12.200 --> 0:27:15.520 kind of ephemeral, And perhaps that is why some studies 0:27:15.560 --> 0:27:19.560 focused on physical reactions like goose bumps. It's like, you 0:27:19.600 --> 0:27:22.080 can't lie if I see your goose bumps, there they 0:27:22.080 --> 0:27:25.679 are there, they aren't. But I think it's clear that 0:27:25.760 --> 0:27:28.680 like more than half of people have frees on. Yeah, yeah, 0:27:28.800 --> 0:27:31.560 that that seems to be the case for sure. And UM, 0:27:31.560 --> 0:27:35.800 I can say this so um again. For the podcast 0:27:35.840 --> 0:27:39.239 that I host, Record Store Society, we have a discord channel. Um. 0:27:39.240 --> 0:27:41.040 If people don't know what Discord is it's more or 0:27:41.119 --> 0:27:44.080 less a message board that that people you know go, 0:27:44.240 --> 0:27:47.280 and it's exclusively for people who listen to this podcast 0:27:47.359 --> 0:27:50.320 that I host, and so therefore everyone on there is 0:27:50.359 --> 0:27:52.600 a big old music nerd, Like that's just kind of 0:27:52.640 --> 0:27:55.399 like you wouldn't go there if you weren't. So the 0:27:55.440 --> 0:27:58.120 other day, for Zon got brought up because I actually 0:27:58.200 --> 0:28:01.240 heard this new song um that I really enjoyed called 0:28:01.720 --> 0:28:05.399 Paranoia Party by Francis Forever, and when I heard it, 0:28:05.760 --> 0:28:09.040 I absolutely got tons of for song from it, like, um, 0:28:09.080 --> 0:28:12.320 there's a real nice build, there's a big change from 0:28:12.359 --> 0:28:15.640 like quiet to loud. There's a lot of patterns kind 0:28:15.640 --> 0:28:18.000 of breaking down and then re emerging, a lot of 0:28:18.000 --> 0:28:32.119 these things that perhaps influenced frees On and um, so 0:28:32.160 --> 0:28:35.600 I posted it on the Discord channel for Record Store Society, going, 0:28:35.640 --> 0:28:37.600 oh man, I get big time frees On for this, 0:28:38.160 --> 0:28:39.920 and a couple of people were like, I had to 0:28:39.960 --> 0:28:42.280 google that word, but now that I know what you're 0:28:42.320 --> 0:28:45.040 talking about, me too, And then someone else go like, oh, 0:28:45.080 --> 0:28:46.880 me too, and someone else would say like, me too, 0:28:47.240 --> 0:28:49.520 and I have to say that this is again, here's 0:28:49.560 --> 0:28:54.200 that word. Anecdotal, entirely anecdotal, but like one of the 0:28:54.240 --> 0:28:59.360 people on this message board for extreme music nerds, everybody 0:28:59.600 --> 0:29:03.320 was feeling. It's like there there wasn't anybody who did 0:29:03.320 --> 0:29:06.560 not know what the feeling and sensation of freesan was. 0:29:07.080 --> 0:29:11.080 So it says something about attention and it's that chicken 0:29:11.160 --> 0:29:13.480 or egg thing again. I believe also at least one 0:29:13.480 --> 0:29:15.880 study I was looking at found that people tend to 0:29:15.960 --> 0:29:20.760 find familiar music more likely to cause freesan. Yeah, I 0:29:20.520 --> 0:29:23.160 I can. I can definitely see that. In particular with 0:29:23.200 --> 0:29:26.600 that song I was just talking about the first time 0:29:26.640 --> 0:29:29.520 I heard it, certain things would make a hit for me. 0:29:29.600 --> 0:29:32.880 For example, a sudden change in volume, because that's something 0:29:32.960 --> 0:29:34.840 that is going to hit me no matter why. I 0:29:34.880 --> 0:29:38.520 don't need any prior knowledge. Just volume is volume. But 0:29:38.560 --> 0:29:40.920 then the second time I listened to that same song, 0:29:41.480 --> 0:29:46.400 the anticipation that I knew that the volume change was coming, 0:29:47.080 --> 0:29:48.560 that hit me in a different way too, and I 0:29:48.560 --> 0:29:51.200 felt it from the anticipation as well. So yeah, yeah, 0:29:51.240 --> 0:29:54.200 I percent believe that as well, that that the a 0:29:54.240 --> 0:29:58.120 familiar song can cause it for reasons other than just 0:29:58.440 --> 0:30:03.920 purely um, what's there. It's not just about anticipatory chills, yes, 0:30:04.680 --> 0:30:08.200 chill chills and feelings of freesan leading up to the 0:30:08.280 --> 0:30:12.680 moment of sort of the peak that you're you're anticipating, right, yes, 0:30:12.840 --> 0:30:15.600 roller coaster, yes, yeah, But I feel like what we 0:30:15.600 --> 0:30:18.040 were just saying would sort of go along with it 0:30:18.040 --> 0:30:20.280 with the study that I was looking at, Seth, I 0:30:20.320 --> 0:30:23.720 think I actually dug this up because you you found 0:30:23.720 --> 0:30:26.800 an article, a popular level article by one of the 0:30:26.840 --> 0:30:30.120 authors of this study. So this was by Mitchell C. 0:30:30.120 --> 0:30:34.800 Culver and Amani L. Lay published in the journal Psychology 0:30:34.800 --> 0:30:38.200 of Music in two sixteen called Getting Aesthetic Chills from 0:30:38.280 --> 0:30:42.920 Music the Connection between Openness to experience and freesan. So 0:30:42.960 --> 0:30:45.719 this is another entry in the the who gets freesan 0:30:45.840 --> 0:30:50.880 from music? Question? So this study compared people's reports of 0:30:50.960 --> 0:30:54.840 their feelings of freesan and music with physiological responses like 0:30:54.920 --> 0:31:00.280 measuring things like skin conductance responses, and a personality typeogy 0:31:00.320 --> 0:31:03.479 test that was based on the five factor model. Now, 0:31:03.520 --> 0:31:05.920 if you're not familiar that the five factor model is 0:31:05.960 --> 0:31:10.239 a way of sort of classifying people's personalities according to 0:31:10.520 --> 0:31:13.560 five different metrics, so you know, you can sort of 0:31:13.600 --> 0:31:16.360 get an idea of many things about a person and 0:31:16.400 --> 0:31:19.240 what kinds of preferences they might have what kinds of 0:31:19.280 --> 0:31:22.520 behaviors they might show if you know their scores on 0:31:22.640 --> 0:31:30.000 five different measures, and these measures would be conscientiousness, agreeableness, neuroticism, extroversion, 0:31:30.440 --> 0:31:34.920 and openness. So listeners who experienced free songs tended on 0:31:35.000 --> 0:31:38.160 average to be higher in the trait openness. It's also 0:31:38.200 --> 0:31:41.960 known as openness to experience. I was looking for a good, 0:31:42.240 --> 0:31:45.400 uh succinct definition of openness to experience. This one comes 0:31:45.440 --> 0:31:49.320 from the Encyclopedia of Applied Psychology by McRae in two 0:31:49.360 --> 0:31:53.920 thousand four, and it identifies that the relevant traits of 0:31:54.200 --> 0:31:59.520 openness to experience our tolerance of ambiguity, low dogmatism, need 0:31:59.680 --> 0:32:07.920 for variety, esthetic sensitivity, absorption, unconventionality, intellectual curiosity, and intuition. 0:32:08.680 --> 0:32:11.840 So people who are high in the trade openness tend 0:32:11.960 --> 0:32:17.240 to be more interested in and tend to prefer difference, variety, 0:32:17.320 --> 0:32:20.840 and novelty, whereas people who are lower in trade openness 0:32:20.920 --> 0:32:25.040 tend to prefer what's familiar and traditional. Wow, it's interesting. 0:32:25.360 --> 0:32:27.719 So in a write up feature about this research, one 0:32:27.760 --> 0:32:31.720 of the authors, Mitchell C. Culver, wrote, quote, while previous 0:32:31.760 --> 0:32:35.520 research had connected openness to experience with free san most 0:32:35.560 --> 0:32:39.400 researchers had concluded that listeners were experiencing Freesan as a 0:32:39.480 --> 0:32:43.040 result of a deeply emotional reaction they were having to 0:32:43.120 --> 0:32:46.360 the music. So right, the idea would have been, maybe 0:32:46.360 --> 0:32:48.600 people who are higher and openness to experience are just 0:32:48.680 --> 0:32:51.760 more likely to have deep emotional connections with music. But 0:32:52.560 --> 0:32:56.000 uh Culver goes on to say, in contrast, the results 0:32:56.000 --> 0:32:59.400 of our studies show that it's the cognitive components of 0:32:59.480 --> 0:33:03.680 openness to experience, such as making mental predictions about how 0:33:03.720 --> 0:33:08.280 the music is going to unfold, or engaging in musical imagery, 0:33:08.360 --> 0:33:11.520 which is a way of processing music that combines listening 0:33:11.600 --> 0:33:14.880 with daydreaming, that are associated with frees on to a 0:33:14.920 --> 0:33:18.960 greater degree than the emotional components. In a whole bunch 0:33:19.120 --> 0:33:23.720 of kind of conflicting information that we are receiving and 0:33:23.880 --> 0:33:26.800 kind of like experiencing with this whole thing. That's one 0:33:26.840 --> 0:33:29.320 of the biggest ones to me is that like the 0:33:29.400 --> 0:33:36.160 emotional experience of openness based on the cognitive components of openness, 0:33:36.240 --> 0:33:39.280 you know what I mean? Like that that that's that's 0:33:39.320 --> 0:33:42.440 that's a head scratcher, that's that's it makes sense to 0:33:42.440 --> 0:33:45.760 me in a way. But again, we're talking about the 0:33:45.800 --> 0:33:48.960 emotion plus the intellect in a very strange way. Yeah, 0:33:49.000 --> 0:33:52.200 exactly so, So it's possible that their their findings are incorrect. 0:33:52.280 --> 0:33:56.200 But if Culver and Ela Lately are correct, what they're 0:33:56.200 --> 0:33:58.600 saying is that people who are high in the trade 0:33:58.640 --> 0:34:03.520 openness are apps not getting more Fressan experiences because they're 0:34:03.520 --> 0:34:07.480 more emotional, but because they tend to engage in more 0:34:07.680 --> 0:34:11.920 pattern recognition and prediction behavior when listening to music, that 0:34:11.960 --> 0:34:14.000 they're more likely to be engaging with the piece of 0:34:14.080 --> 0:34:16.480 music in a way that seeks out patterns in the 0:34:16.520 --> 0:34:20.400 structure of the song and tries to predict what's coming next, 0:34:20.920 --> 0:34:25.400 and that that activity is more highly associated with these 0:34:25.480 --> 0:34:30.680 extremely powerful psychophysiological experiences, more so than the than the 0:34:30.719 --> 0:34:34.280 emotional components. And I think that's interesting for sure. Yeah, 0:34:34.480 --> 0:34:36.480 and and and at least in my own experience, I 0:34:36.480 --> 0:34:38.719 can definitely feel that to be true. If I look 0:34:38.760 --> 0:34:43.359 at the songs that give me Fressan patterns and then 0:34:43.400 --> 0:34:47.400 a subversion of a pattern or a almost like doubling 0:34:47.480 --> 0:34:50.239 down on a pattern, like like either way can really 0:34:50.280 --> 0:34:53.680 do it. But but but really am some sort of 0:34:53.760 --> 0:34:56.799 accent upon a pattern whichever path you want to take 0:34:56.800 --> 0:34:59.239 on that this will come back. A major theme in 0:34:59.280 --> 0:35:03.000 the research about the underlying mechanisms of frees on has 0:35:03.040 --> 0:35:07.280 to do with patterns and prediction and UH and anticipation. 0:35:08.000 --> 0:35:10.080 But anyway to move on to other things. So that 0:35:10.080 --> 0:35:12.080 that was that people who are higher in the trade 0:35:12.080 --> 0:35:15.600 openness tend to report more freesans UH. There is another 0:35:15.880 --> 0:35:18.319 There is apparently a social component. I was reading a 0:35:18.360 --> 0:35:21.800 note that a researcher named Alf Gabrielson in two thousand twelve, 0:35:21.920 --> 0:35:25.799 in a work called Strong Experiences with Music, reported that 0:35:25.880 --> 0:35:28.600 people who listen to music together with a friend or 0:35:28.680 --> 0:35:32.920 partner experience more activation of the autonomic nervous system, which 0:35:33.000 --> 0:35:35.840 is associated with these these reactions in the body. The 0:35:35.880 --> 0:35:39.400 autonomic nervous system is UH is the part of the 0:35:39.440 --> 0:35:43.920 nervous system that controls things that are that are involuntary 0:35:43.960 --> 0:35:46.120 in your body, such as maintaining of course, you know, 0:35:46.560 --> 0:35:49.120 heart rate and digestion and breathing and all that, but 0:35:49.239 --> 0:35:54.640 also homeostatic responses, responses to changes in temperature, and the 0:35:54.680 --> 0:35:57.480 fight or flight response, which is specifically a subset of 0:35:57.520 --> 0:36:00.800 the autonomic nervous system known as the sympathetic nervous system 0:36:00.800 --> 0:36:04.759 and the sympathetic nervous system appears to often be activated 0:36:04.880 --> 0:36:08.960 in these frees on experiences. So something's going on in 0:36:09.000 --> 0:36:13.799 the body where a a musical freesan has something in 0:36:13.920 --> 0:36:17.000 common with the fight or flight response, which is very 0:36:17.040 --> 0:36:25.480 interesting and we'll get more into that later on than now. 0:36:25.520 --> 0:36:28.320 Another way to approach this question of who gets musical 0:36:28.360 --> 0:36:32.000 frees on um is can we learn anything by identifying 0:36:32.120 --> 0:36:35.320 what people have in common when they don't experience musical 0:36:35.360 --> 0:36:40.680 freeson uh. So, again I mentioned earlier that presentation I 0:36:40.719 --> 0:36:44.080 was watching by the researcher Psyche Louis Uh and she 0:36:44.239 --> 0:36:47.080 was talking about studies that have been done with people 0:36:47.239 --> 0:36:50.800 who have what's called musical and hedonia, and this is 0:36:50.840 --> 0:36:54.200 a condition where people just do not really derive pleasure 0:36:54.280 --> 0:36:57.440 from music. Now, it's important to specify what musical and 0:36:57.600 --> 0:37:00.920 hedonia is not. It's different on what's known as a 0:37:01.200 --> 0:37:05.080 musa or tone deafness. People with musical and hedonia do 0:37:05.160 --> 0:37:08.520 not show major errors in their perception of music. They 0:37:08.520 --> 0:37:12.160 can hear it just fine. And it's different from general 0:37:12.239 --> 0:37:15.360 and hedonia. So people with musical and hedonia can derive 0:37:15.440 --> 0:37:19.280 pleasure from other things. It's not a generalized lack of pleasure. 0:37:19.520 --> 0:37:22.680 It's just a lack of pleasure from music. And one 0:37:22.680 --> 0:37:25.799 thing Louis talks about is research that has found that 0:37:25.840 --> 0:37:29.840 people with musical and hadonia have different patterns of connectivity 0:37:29.920 --> 0:37:33.600 between the auditory regions of the brain and a region 0:37:33.640 --> 0:37:36.520 of the brain known as the nucleus incumbents. Uh So, 0:37:36.560 --> 0:37:41.120 the nucleus incumbents is important in the reward system. It 0:37:41.239 --> 0:37:45.400 is used to drive motivation for the anticipation of rewards, 0:37:45.440 --> 0:37:49.920 including things like food, sex, money, and drugs. Basically, like 0:37:50.000 --> 0:37:51.880 anything you can think of that would be, you know, 0:37:51.920 --> 0:37:54.880 a kind of pleasurable stimulus that would really motivate you 0:37:54.960 --> 0:37:58.000 to want to get more of it. That motivation to 0:37:58.040 --> 0:38:01.080 get more of it is mediated by reward system in 0:38:01.120 --> 0:38:04.720 the brain, including the nucleus accumbans. This might be also 0:38:04.920 --> 0:38:08.040 very unscientific for me to say, but all those things 0:38:08.160 --> 0:38:12.520 also seemed to have um elements of um anticipation and dopamine. 0:38:12.600 --> 0:38:15.880 Oh yes, exactly. So the thrill you get in anticipation 0:38:16.560 --> 0:38:19.640 of one of these things, food, sex, money, drugs, any 0:38:19.680 --> 0:38:22.080 of these these things, the thrill you get in the 0:38:22.120 --> 0:38:25.160 brain while you were in pursuit of that goal is 0:38:25.280 --> 0:38:27.840 very much related. That is the reward system working to 0:38:27.960 --> 0:38:31.760 motivate your behavior. Now, another interesting thing about who gets 0:38:31.840 --> 0:38:35.919 musical freesans. I was reading a about a study by 0:38:35.920 --> 0:38:40.960 the Estonian neuroscientist Yak punk Step who found in research 0:38:41.000 --> 0:38:44.399 in nineteen in the journal Music Perception that at least 0:38:44.400 --> 0:38:48.480 in his study, that women reported experiencing chills from music 0:38:48.640 --> 0:38:51.560 somewhat more more often than men did. Though obviously people 0:38:51.560 --> 0:38:54.239 of all genders get the chills, it found that it 0:38:54.280 --> 0:38:57.000 was a little bit more common in women. And also 0:38:57.520 --> 0:39:01.400 there was an interesting observation from punks up study, which 0:39:01.520 --> 0:39:06.400 was this quote, many mistakenly believe that happiness in music 0:39:06.640 --> 0:39:10.480 is more influential in evoking the response than sadness. A 0:39:10.560 --> 0:39:14.680 series of correlational studies analyzing the subjective experience of chills 0:39:14.760 --> 0:39:17.440 in groups of students listening to a variety of musical 0:39:17.480 --> 0:39:21.440 pieces indicated that chills are related to the perceived emotional 0:39:21.480 --> 0:39:25.840 content of various selections, with much stronger relations to perceived 0:39:26.000 --> 0:39:31.880 sadness than happiness. So, according to poccepts research here, sad 0:39:32.000 --> 0:39:35.800 music is more likely to cause free songs in reality, 0:39:35.840 --> 0:39:38.480 But when people are just sort of asked to speculate, 0:39:38.840 --> 0:39:42.319 they tend to believe that happy music causes it more. 0:39:42.920 --> 0:39:46.000 Isn't that fascinating? And it makes me wonder like, could 0:39:46.040 --> 0:39:49.600 this be related to confusion in reflecting on your own 0:39:49.680 --> 0:39:54.000 experiences of free song, because maybe even though it actually 0:39:54.080 --> 0:39:58.400 happens to you more often with negative valenced esthetic content, 0:39:58.480 --> 0:40:02.880 you know, sad music, sad movies, the experience itself is 0:40:02.920 --> 0:40:06.640 somehow pleasurable, so maybe you mistakenly believe it to be 0:40:06.760 --> 0:40:10.319 caused by more positive valenced content in your memory. At 0:40:10.360 --> 0:40:13.160 least I don't know that that's the causal chain there, 0:40:13.200 --> 0:40:16.520 but that that mistake that people make is interesting. Yeah, 0:40:16.560 --> 0:40:19.560 it definitely could be some sort of confirmation bias, um, 0:40:19.600 --> 0:40:23.080 because even now when you said that, I thought to myself, Okay, 0:40:23.080 --> 0:40:25.440 what are all the examples I'm thinking of? They are 0:40:25.520 --> 0:40:29.719 one happy songs? I I I, And I think part 0:40:29.800 --> 0:40:32.880 of it, at least for me, is there's perhaps something 0:40:33.000 --> 0:40:36.880 triumphant in a lot of the songs that creates the 0:40:36.960 --> 0:40:40.799 freesng feeling in me. Um, maybe a bit bombastic. I'm 0:40:40.800 --> 0:40:42.719 not going to apologize that I get tons of free 0:40:42.760 --> 0:40:46.160 song from limb aserab, but you know, when when when 0:40:46.200 --> 0:40:48.279 do you hear the people sing? Comes on? I? I 0:40:48.360 --> 0:40:51.440 get that feeling all over And there is something that 0:40:51.600 --> 0:40:55.120 is triumphant about that song, but there's a there, there's 0:40:55.160 --> 0:40:57.520 a subtlety to it. There, there's an ambiguity to it 0:40:57.560 --> 0:41:00.760 because the song and its lyrical content and even something 0:41:00.760 --> 0:41:03.200 about the way it sounds implies a kind of risk 0:41:03.440 --> 0:41:06.439 or threat. Does that make sense? It does? And and 0:41:06.440 --> 0:41:09.680 and perhaps that kind of duality is just part of 0:41:09.800 --> 0:41:13.120 music in general. Like I was thinking about that Beatles song. Um, 0:41:13.480 --> 0:41:15.440 it's like, I've got to believe it's getting better, It's 0:41:15.440 --> 0:41:17.719 getting better all the time. And then you hear John 0:41:17.800 --> 0:41:20.719 Letton say it couldn't get much worse. Were like, it 0:41:20.800 --> 0:41:24.240 seems like a very positive song unless you pay attention, 0:41:24.680 --> 0:41:27.080 and it's like, oh no, no, this is a very 0:41:27.160 --> 0:41:30.640 sad song that is hopeful. Perhaps and and perhaps that 0:41:30.640 --> 0:41:33.760 that that dichotomy, it's just a part of music in general, 0:41:33.920 --> 0:41:36.920 which which needs to be factored in as well. Huh 0:41:36.960 --> 0:41:38.680 so do you yes for me? Do you hear the 0:41:38.680 --> 0:41:41.759 people sing? It is sort of triumphant sounding, but in 0:41:41.800 --> 0:41:44.960 its lyrical content it is a demonstration of courage in 0:41:45.000 --> 0:41:49.880 the face of near certain death. Right Wow, yeah, fascinating 0:41:49.920 --> 0:41:53.160 fascinating stuff anyway, So ready to move on to maybe 0:41:53.200 --> 0:41:56.680 the next question, which is what triggers free song and music, like, 0:41:56.719 --> 0:42:00.560 what are the specific auditory triggers that bring it about 0:42:00.640 --> 0:42:03.040 most often? Again, this is something where there's probably going 0:42:03.080 --> 0:42:06.719 to be a lot of idiosyncrasy in people's responses, but 0:42:07.080 --> 0:42:10.439 there are certain things that do tend to emerge as 0:42:10.800 --> 0:42:13.680 as like the most common triggers. And here I'm going 0:42:13.719 --> 0:42:15.400 to be referring to I can't remember if I already 0:42:15.440 --> 0:42:16.880 said the name of this paper. I think I didn't, 0:42:16.880 --> 0:42:20.239 But this is a paper that is a a review 0:42:20.640 --> 0:42:23.839 of the of the existing research on frees on as 0:42:23.880 --> 0:42:28.840 often by Luke Harrison and Psyche Louis who already mentioned. 0:42:29.120 --> 0:42:32.880 And it's called Thrills, Chills, freesans and Skin Orgasms Towards 0:42:32.880 --> 0:42:37.400 an Integrative Model of Transcendence Psychophysiological Experiences in Music. And 0:42:37.440 --> 0:42:42.040 this is published in Frontiers in Psychology, and they collect 0:42:42.200 --> 0:42:46.000 some of the existing research on musical freesan inducers. One 0:42:46.040 --> 0:42:48.759 big study that looked into this was slow Boda in 0:42:50.080 --> 0:42:54.080 and this one found that the common types of musical 0:42:54.120 --> 0:42:57.399 phrases that bring people to a state of freesan, we're 0:42:57.920 --> 0:43:01.400 quote chord progressions descending the circle of fifths, to the 0:43:01.440 --> 0:43:08.480 tonic very specific. Uh. Then melodic appoggiaturas. So appoggiaturas are 0:43:08.640 --> 0:43:11.440 when there is a grace note or grace notes added 0:43:11.520 --> 0:43:16.200 to a melody before or between the expected notes. I 0:43:16.200 --> 0:43:18.719 feel like it's kind of hard to explain without singing it. 0:43:18.840 --> 0:43:20.440 I kind of don't want to sing it because that 0:43:20.440 --> 0:43:22.920 would sound pathetic, But I know what you mean. It's 0:43:22.960 --> 0:43:27.000 that quick anticipatory note right before the actual kickoff of 0:43:27.040 --> 0:43:30.279 the chorus or the verse or the bridge or whatever. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. 0:43:30.560 --> 0:43:33.440 So if you can imagine a familiar melody, say, imagine 0:43:33.480 --> 0:43:37.520 somebody singing the melody of of London Bridge is falling down, 0:43:37.640 --> 0:43:41.160 but adding in little grace notes in between the familiar 0:43:41.239 --> 0:43:43.759 notes of the melody. Does that make sense? It does 0:43:43.800 --> 0:43:46.200 to me, but does it make sense to our listener? 0:43:47.880 --> 0:43:51.520 But then also the onset of unexpected harmonies, This is 0:43:51.560 --> 0:43:53.760 a huge one for me. A lot of the ones 0:43:54.160 --> 0:43:56.759 that I can think of are when or when harmonies 0:43:56.800 --> 0:44:00.600 come in, when vocal when new vocals are added. Rights, 0:44:00.880 --> 0:44:03.600 yeah uh. And then they also say and melodic or 0:44:03.640 --> 0:44:06.839 harmonic sequences, which seems very unspecific to me. Is I'm 0:44:06.880 --> 0:44:09.439 not sure what to make of that, But they also 0:44:09.480 --> 0:44:12.520 cite another study by Grua at all or Greva at 0:44:12.560 --> 0:44:16.239 all in two thousand seven that found um that the 0:44:16.280 --> 0:44:19.719 onsets of freeson were quote most likely to occur during 0:44:19.800 --> 0:44:24.319 peaks in loudness, moments of modulation, and works in which 0:44:24.320 --> 0:44:28.560 the melody occupied the human vocal register. Uh. And all 0:44:28.680 --> 0:44:31.960 that sounds right to me. A big thing is changes 0:44:32.120 --> 0:44:36.080 in volume, dynamic changes, sudden dynamic leaps where you go 0:44:36.200 --> 0:44:39.520 from UH, where you go from soft to suddenly loud, 0:44:40.080 --> 0:44:43.040 or from loud to suddenly soft. Those have been shown 0:44:43.080 --> 0:44:47.360 to elicit freesan UM. But then also sudden changes in 0:44:47.480 --> 0:44:50.040 say the register when you jump up an octave or 0:44:50.080 --> 0:44:53.640 something like that. And they point out that these uh, 0:44:53.760 --> 0:44:57.560 these triggers tend to point in the direction of freesan 0:44:57.719 --> 0:45:01.799 having something to do with expectance violation. Because almost all 0:45:01.840 --> 0:45:04.840 of the things that have been identified as major triggers 0:45:04.840 --> 0:45:07.840 of free so on are when a song has established 0:45:07.840 --> 0:45:11.600 a pattern and then the pattern suddenly changes in some way. 0:45:11.920 --> 0:45:14.040 That all makes sense. Now, I guess it's time to 0:45:14.040 --> 0:45:16.720 move on to the question of why does this happen? 0:45:16.800 --> 0:45:19.120 This is really the big puzzle, right, So you've got 0:45:19.160 --> 0:45:22.240 something that's just a song it is, you know, music, 0:45:22.520 --> 0:45:26.360 It is vibrating air molecules that are stimulating your ears. 0:45:26.800 --> 0:45:30.000 It's sound that occurs in a certain pattern or or 0:45:30.280 --> 0:45:34.520 or cycle of tones and rhythmic pulses, and somehow that 0:45:34.800 --> 0:45:38.160 means something to you. And it not only means something 0:45:38.200 --> 0:45:41.680 to you, it triggers this powerful response that seems to 0:45:41.760 --> 0:45:46.640 involve uh, the emotions and and pleasure seeking and and 0:45:46.719 --> 0:45:49.319 the full body and and maybe something having to do 0:45:49.480 --> 0:45:52.040 with the autonomic nervous system kind of like a fight 0:45:52.120 --> 0:45:55.000 or flight response would. So it's this big mess that's 0:45:55.000 --> 0:45:58.120 obviously really complicated. So one of the things that I 0:45:58.120 --> 0:46:00.759 thought might be helpful to start by looking at is 0:46:00.800 --> 0:46:04.719 one specific subset of musical free so on, which is 0:46:04.760 --> 0:46:07.680 the experience of goose bumps. So it's actually, I think, 0:46:07.719 --> 0:46:11.760 at root, a fascinating question in itself. Why would human 0:46:11.800 --> 0:46:16.880 beings get goose bumps from esthetic reactions to art and music? 0:46:17.440 --> 0:46:21.040 You know, there's a biological response that it's at least 0:46:21.040 --> 0:46:23.800 at first glance, hard to identify a cause and effect 0:46:23.800 --> 0:46:28.960 relationship for right, Yeah, it doesn't make much sense intellectually. Yeah, Uh, 0:46:29.000 --> 0:46:31.279 so when you get goose bumps, the technical term for 0:46:31.280 --> 0:46:34.560 what's happening here is pilo erection. It's also sometimes known 0:46:34.600 --> 0:46:37.960 as the pilo motor reflex um. And what's going on 0:46:38.040 --> 0:46:40.439 in your body when you get goose bumps is that 0:46:40.640 --> 0:46:43.680 in your skin, at the base of your body hairs, 0:46:44.080 --> 0:46:47.520 there are these little muscles known as erector pilly and 0:46:47.560 --> 0:46:51.040 when these muscles contract, it causes your hairs, which are 0:46:51.080 --> 0:46:54.960 normally relaxed and lying flat, to suddenly stand on end. 0:46:55.040 --> 0:46:56.960 It's sort of like pulls them down tight and they 0:46:57.000 --> 0:47:00.359 stand straight up. And the question would be why does 0:47:00.360 --> 0:47:02.560 the body do this? Well, there are a couple of 0:47:02.600 --> 0:47:06.280 major explanations that are correlated with what normally causes goose 0:47:06.320 --> 0:47:11.000 bumps or similar reactions in animals, especially animals with more 0:47:11.080 --> 0:47:15.680 hair than us. One answer is the cold. When you 0:47:15.719 --> 0:47:18.759 are cold, your body is losing heat through the skin, 0:47:19.520 --> 0:47:23.000 and the pilo erection response is an evolutionary adaptation that 0:47:23.120 --> 0:47:26.759 helps protect the body against heat loss by insulating the skin, 0:47:27.280 --> 0:47:30.760 so your body detects a chill and it protects itself 0:47:30.800 --> 0:47:34.080 by contracting the erector pilly, causing the body hair to 0:47:34.160 --> 0:47:37.480 stand up. This obviously would have been much more useful 0:47:37.520 --> 0:47:40.759 to human ancestors, who had significantly more body hair than 0:47:40.800 --> 0:47:43.400 we do. It does a lot less to help insulate 0:47:43.400 --> 0:47:46.960 our relatively unhaired bodies today, but it seems to be 0:47:47.040 --> 0:47:49.920 a somewhat vestigial trait, like when we get cold, we 0:47:49.960 --> 0:47:52.680 still get the goose bumps, as if we had a 0:47:52.680 --> 0:47:54.960 big coat of fur to help insulate us when when 0:47:55.000 --> 0:47:57.239 our skin did that. But it's not just when we 0:47:57.239 --> 0:47:59.960 get cold. There are also threats of danger. That cause 0:48:00.040 --> 0:48:03.640 is the polo motor response, So the body deploys the 0:48:03.719 --> 0:48:07.440 same reflex, the same pilo erection in response to sudden 0:48:07.520 --> 0:48:12.040 shocks or fear or threats of danger, and the evolutionary 0:48:12.080 --> 0:48:15.400 reasoning is that this provides a survival advantage because pilo 0:48:15.440 --> 0:48:19.000 erection makes the body look bigger. So you've probably seen 0:48:19.040 --> 0:48:22.120 a cat that gets spooked by some kind of possible threat, 0:48:22.160 --> 0:48:24.920 maybe an aggressive dog, or maybe just a cucumber on 0:48:24.960 --> 0:48:28.840 the floor. Whatever, it seems to detect the possibility that 0:48:29.000 --> 0:48:32.000 some other kind of animal is they're threatening it, and 0:48:32.080 --> 0:48:36.240 it's first stands up on end. Now the cat looks thicker, larger, 0:48:36.400 --> 0:48:39.719 it looks more dangerous and able to defend itself, which 0:48:39.760 --> 0:48:43.200 means that this other animal or or pseudo animal is 0:48:43.280 --> 0:48:47.000 less likely to attack and these explanations for the pilo 0:48:47.040 --> 0:48:49.720 motor reflex have been known about for a long time. Actually. 0:48:49.760 --> 0:48:53.600 Charles Darwin wrote about these reactions and goose bumps in 0:48:53.640 --> 0:48:55.960 his book The Expression of the Emotions in Man and 0:48:56.000 --> 0:48:59.080 Animals in eighteen seventy two, where he wrote that quote 0:48:59.120 --> 0:49:02.880 hardly any appressive movement is so general as the involuntary 0:49:02.920 --> 0:49:06.719 erection of the hair's feathers and other dermal appendages. And 0:49:06.800 --> 0:49:09.840 he noted correlates of these in in not just mammals, 0:49:09.840 --> 0:49:13.040 but in mammals and in birds and in reptiles, which 0:49:13.040 --> 0:49:16.799 I thought was interesting. So the evolutionary reasoning connecting goose 0:49:16.800 --> 0:49:19.560 bumps to a survival advantage in the in the case 0:49:19.600 --> 0:49:22.680 of cold or threats makes very solid sense. But why 0:49:22.760 --> 0:49:27.760 would this connect to abstract emotions or to esthetics like music? 0:49:28.640 --> 0:49:30.719 So I was looking around for good explanations of this. 0:49:30.840 --> 0:49:33.719 One thing I came across was an explainer I found 0:49:33.719 --> 0:49:37.440 in Scientific American from two thousand three by a physiologist 0:49:37.480 --> 0:49:40.319 and professor of zoology at the University of Gulf in 0:49:40.360 --> 0:49:45.200 Ontario named George A. Boubinick, who said that basically all 0:49:45.320 --> 0:49:48.920 goose bumps responses involve the release of adrenaline and the 0:49:48.960 --> 0:49:51.759 activation of the autonomic nervous system like we were talking 0:49:51.800 --> 0:49:56.040 about earlier, and uh Bubinic writes quote. Adrenaline, which in 0:49:56.120 --> 0:49:59.200 humans is produced in two small bean like glands that 0:49:59.280 --> 0:50:02.520 sit sit a the kidneys, not only causes the contraction 0:50:02.560 --> 0:50:06.319 of skin muscles, but also influences many other body reactions. 0:50:06.800 --> 0:50:10.000 In humans, adrenaline is often released when we feel cold 0:50:10.080 --> 0:50:12.600 or afraid, but also if you're under stress and feel 0:50:12.600 --> 0:50:16.000 strong emotions such as anger or excitement. Other signs of 0:50:16.040 --> 0:50:20.480 adrenaline release include tears, sweaty palms, trembling hands, and increase 0:50:20.520 --> 0:50:23.600 in blood pressure, erasing heart, or the feeling of butterflies 0:50:23.640 --> 0:50:27.040 in the stomach. Uh So, that's a little frustrating because 0:50:27.800 --> 0:50:31.640 it establishes the possible mechanism in the endocrin or nervous 0:50:31.680 --> 0:50:35.480 system that may be partially correct for explaining the mechanism 0:50:35.560 --> 0:50:38.080 in these cases. But you're still kind of left wondering why, 0:50:38.320 --> 0:50:42.840 right rights And also, well, it's been brought up before 0:50:42.960 --> 0:50:47.560 this connection to fight or flight, but the why has 0:50:47.640 --> 0:50:52.920 not been explained at all. Uh So, I'll try another 0:50:52.920 --> 0:50:55.399 one here. So this one, I'm not sure how good 0:50:55.400 --> 0:50:57.600 of an explanation this is, but at least I found 0:50:57.600 --> 0:50:59.960 it very interesting. So this is what's known as the 0:51:00.160 --> 0:51:06.040 separation call hypothesis. This is another evolutionary explanation for emotional chills. 0:51:06.200 --> 0:51:08.560 And this one goes back to somebody I mentioned earlier 0:51:08.560 --> 0:51:12.880 in the episode, the Estonian neuroscientist Yak punk Sepp, who 0:51:13.160 --> 0:51:17.680 he's known for creating the note the term affective neuroscience, 0:51:17.680 --> 0:51:22.279 the neuroscience of emotions, and uh punk steps hypothesis. I 0:51:22.280 --> 0:51:24.440 found a good summary of it in another paper that 0:51:24.600 --> 0:51:28.600 was by Benetic and Karen Back in Biological Psychology in 0:51:28.640 --> 0:51:31.280 two thousand eleven, so I'm going to read their summary 0:51:31.360 --> 0:51:34.799 of of punk SEPs view. He argues that the separation 0:51:34.960 --> 0:51:39.200 calls of lost young animals used to inform parents about 0:51:39.200 --> 0:51:43.040 the whereabouts of their offspring. These calls might have induced 0:51:43.120 --> 0:51:47.319 internal feelings of coldness and chills, which enhanced the motivation 0:51:47.400 --> 0:51:52.680 for social reunion. A preserved responsivity to certain acoustical features 0:51:52.760 --> 0:51:56.600 e g. Sustained high frequency notes as often presented by 0:51:56.600 --> 0:52:01.799 solo performers, may represent an unconditional component of the chill response. 0:52:02.239 --> 0:52:06.600 This theoretical approach, which could be termed separation call hypothesis, 0:52:07.000 --> 0:52:11.560 thus relates pylo erection to sensations of coldness and sadness. 0:52:12.640 --> 0:52:15.920 Uh So, this is interesting. I'm kind of skeptical that 0:52:15.960 --> 0:52:19.160 this explains everything that's going on, but it does touch 0:52:19.200 --> 0:52:22.000 on multiple features in a way that would make some 0:52:22.080 --> 0:52:25.080 kind of causal sense in an evolutionary perspective. So the 0:52:25.120 --> 0:52:28.680 idea is that, okay, you separate baby rats from their mothers, 0:52:28.719 --> 0:52:31.440 and the baby rats get cold and they squeak at 0:52:31.440 --> 0:52:35.920 a particular frequency that triggers the parent rat to locate 0:52:36.000 --> 0:52:39.480 them quickly, So the process would go. The baby is alone, 0:52:39.600 --> 0:52:44.680 feels temperature decrease, the baby releases a separation call. This 0:52:44.800 --> 0:52:48.160 causes a feeling of separation, a feeling of loss or 0:52:48.200 --> 0:52:51.160 a kind of correlate of sadness in the human context, 0:52:51.560 --> 0:52:54.479 and a feeling of physical coldness, chills, or even goose 0:52:54.520 --> 0:52:58.880 bumps in the mother, motivating rapid reunion and contact with 0:52:58.960 --> 0:53:02.240 the baby rat. So punk Step was arguing that maybe 0:53:02.280 --> 0:53:06.240 these emotional goose bumps we feel in response to music 0:53:06.760 --> 0:53:11.520 have a deep biological root in this mammalian separation call 0:53:11.760 --> 0:53:15.040 and and the response that we would feel in in 0:53:15.040 --> 0:53:17.600 in reaction to hearing it. Perhaps some sort of like 0:53:17.840 --> 0:53:20.440 evolutionary left over kind of a thing. Right, So you 0:53:20.560 --> 0:53:23.600 have certain types of sounds or thought patterns triggering this 0:53:23.680 --> 0:53:28.719 feeling of being moved, which which would simultaneously cause a 0:53:28.760 --> 0:53:33.320 feeling of almost like physical coldness, the chilling feeling goose bumps, 0:53:33.360 --> 0:53:36.000 and a feeling of separation, and a motivation to re 0:53:36.200 --> 0:53:40.520 establish social contact, which in itself would be a a 0:53:40.560 --> 0:53:43.920 sort of a reward motivation where you've got a goal 0:53:44.040 --> 0:53:47.640 now and you're like, I need to get this. I mean, um, 0:53:47.680 --> 0:53:52.040 if true, that's absolutely amazing everything that could come from 0:53:52.040 --> 0:53:56.320 a simple like evolutionary left over instinct. You know, I 0:53:56.360 --> 0:53:59.759 think about the entire music industry coming from just this 0:53:59.840 --> 0:54:02.400 left over a response that has kind of like almost 0:54:02.480 --> 0:54:05.560 um almost pointed usn't the wrong direction, but we got 0:54:05.640 --> 0:54:08.000 so much pleasure out of it anyway. Yeah, And I 0:54:08.040 --> 0:54:11.080 think this may have something to it, and I've read 0:54:11.120 --> 0:54:13.399 that there were some subsequent studies that kind of lent 0:54:13.520 --> 0:54:16.440 support to at least in some cases. But it also 0:54:16.480 --> 0:54:19.080 seems hard for me to imagine that this is the 0:54:19.200 --> 0:54:23.640 direct route of all emotional chills. Uh. I mean, maybe 0:54:24.000 --> 0:54:27.080 maybe this kind of causation is wrapped up in there somewhere, 0:54:27.160 --> 0:54:30.400 but I'm still thinking about other ideas. So one of 0:54:30.440 --> 0:54:32.839 the other ideas comes back to something that we we've 0:54:33.200 --> 0:54:38.279 mentioned a few times now, which is about patterns and predictions. Now, 0:54:38.320 --> 0:54:42.080 earlier I mentioned this conference presentation I watched by Psyche Louis, 0:54:42.520 --> 0:54:46.360 the musical neuroscience researcher. It was at the Brain Mind 0:54:46.400 --> 0:54:49.520 Summit and in might t in twenty nineteen and uh 0:54:49.560 --> 0:54:52.480 and she talks about this hypothesis and in her presentation, 0:54:52.600 --> 0:54:55.080 so she says that a lot of our response to 0:54:55.200 --> 0:54:59.840 music has to do with fulfillments and violations of expectation. 0:55:00.760 --> 0:55:03.640 So you think about what's your what's your actual experience 0:55:03.719 --> 0:55:06.480 of listening to music, What is your brain doing when 0:55:06.520 --> 0:55:09.560 you're paying attention to the music you're listening to. I 0:55:09.840 --> 0:55:14.920 think it's that music establishes patterns. You know, phrases are repeated, 0:55:15.080 --> 0:55:20.040 chord progressions, cycle, and often symmetrical ways. Popular music, of course, 0:55:20.080 --> 0:55:23.520 has the very common verse chorus verse structure. Uh. And 0:55:24.160 --> 0:55:26.160 though there are other types of music, like jazz and 0:55:26.200 --> 0:55:30.319 classical music that are less repetitious and have less to 0:55:30.320 --> 0:55:33.760 do with established patterns, they still do establish some patterns. 0:55:34.000 --> 0:55:37.560 You can feel out the grammar of a classical symphony 0:55:37.719 --> 0:55:41.239 or or a jazz improvisation, even though they might be 0:55:41.520 --> 0:55:45.680 less repetitive than some familiar types of pop and rock music, right, 0:55:45.719 --> 0:55:47.960 Like maybe there's just a theme that repeats, or perhaps 0:55:48.120 --> 0:55:51.560 it just being played in the same key. You go, Oh, 0:55:51.600 --> 0:55:53.400 I can kind of predict where this is going to 0:55:53.520 --> 0:55:56.880 go based simply on like instinctual knowledge of like you know, 0:55:57.040 --> 0:56:02.200 different chord progressions and different different um scales, that kind 0:56:02.200 --> 0:56:04.120 of thing. So, yeah, a piece of music has a 0:56:04.200 --> 0:56:07.640 kind of implied grammar or syntax as kind of rules 0:56:07.680 --> 0:56:09.759 that you can learn, and then you use that to 0:56:09.960 --> 0:56:12.920 predict how it's going to develop from the present moment. 0:56:13.440 --> 0:56:16.520 And so she talks about how this feeling of being 0:56:16.520 --> 0:56:19.920 able to predict what's coming next usually is something that 0:56:19.960 --> 0:56:22.720 we find rewarding in the brain, like in the actual 0:56:22.880 --> 0:56:26.960 reward system. Uh, the ability to say, hey, I think 0:56:26.960 --> 0:56:29.640 I know what's going to happen next, and then anticipating 0:56:29.680 --> 0:56:32.280 and then trying to see if your prediction is correct. 0:56:32.760 --> 0:56:36.360 That is a reward motivation process in that part of 0:56:36.360 --> 0:56:38.800 the brain. And this actually comes back to something I 0:56:38.880 --> 0:56:41.760 think we already mentioned a little bit earlier in the episode, 0:56:41.920 --> 0:56:46.520 but the research finding um that people who get chills 0:56:46.560 --> 0:56:49.200 from music versus people who don't get chills from music. 0:56:49.280 --> 0:56:53.200 There are differences in the amount of fiber connecting different 0:56:53.200 --> 0:56:55.280 parts of the brain. In this case, it's the amount 0:56:55.280 --> 0:56:59.120 of white matter connecting regions of the auditory system where 0:56:59.160 --> 0:57:03.280 you would be processed incoming sounds um in the temporal lobe, 0:57:03.400 --> 0:57:06.399 two regions of the frontal lobe that Luis says are 0:57:06.440 --> 0:57:10.920 important for emotion and reward again, specifically the nucleus incumbents 0:57:10.920 --> 0:57:15.239 and the medial prefrontal cortex. And so this comes back 0:57:15.280 --> 0:57:19.440 to the dopaminergic reward system. Dopamine is a neurotransmitter that 0:57:19.480 --> 0:57:22.280 I think is sometimes a bit mischaracterized as being synonymous 0:57:22.280 --> 0:57:25.000 with the feeling of pleasure, which is slightly off because 0:57:25.400 --> 0:57:29.640 the dopaminergic reward system is not just responsible for feeling 0:57:29.680 --> 0:57:33.280 good after getting what you want, but for managing the 0:57:33.320 --> 0:57:37.720 salience of incentives, managing your awareness of things in your 0:57:37.880 --> 0:57:42.200 environment that you might want, and your motivation to get them. So, 0:57:42.320 --> 0:57:46.800 dopamine increases in the brain in anticipation of receiving a reward, 0:57:47.160 --> 0:57:49.720 and it plays a role in motivating you to repeat 0:57:49.760 --> 0:57:51.920 a behavior that caused you to get a reward in 0:57:51.920 --> 0:57:55.520 the past. So in our ancestral environment. These rewards would 0:57:55.560 --> 0:58:00.440 be things that provided a survival reproduction advantage, so food, water, 0:58:00.720 --> 0:58:04.360 sexual partners, but also things like parental care. But our 0:58:04.360 --> 0:58:07.400 reward systems can also become motivated by rewards that are 0:58:07.440 --> 0:58:11.400 at a sort of abstract remove, like money, or perhaps 0:58:11.440 --> 0:58:15.640 things like enjoyable art and music, or even by substances 0:58:15.720 --> 0:58:19.560 that stimulate the reward pathways chemically, like opiates or cocaine. 0:58:20.520 --> 0:58:23.360 But from some of the neuroscience research, it looks like 0:58:23.920 --> 0:58:28.440 when we have these intensely pleasurable psycho physiological responses to music, 0:58:28.840 --> 0:58:31.520 something is going on with the reward pathway that has 0:58:31.560 --> 0:58:36.160 to do with predictions that pleasure in music somehow has 0:58:36.240 --> 0:58:40.120 something to do with the listener recognizing patterns and the 0:58:40.240 --> 0:58:43.840 reward seeking mechanisms in the brain being motivated to detect 0:58:43.880 --> 0:58:47.360 and predict those patterns. This makes me want to speculate, 0:58:47.600 --> 0:58:50.520 but I will not. I don't know, go right ahead. 0:58:51.440 --> 0:58:55.920 My My speculation is this, UM, I remember basically reaching 0:58:55.920 --> 0:59:00.240 a certain age where um, you think to yourself, uh, gosh, 0:59:00.280 --> 0:59:03.840 I hate school, schools annoying? Gosh, school what what a drag? 0:59:04.320 --> 0:59:07.040 And then someone wiser will tell you, you know, school 0:59:07.080 --> 0:59:11.120 isn't actually about the lessons. It's not about the homework. 0:59:11.640 --> 0:59:14.720 School is about learning how to learn. It's about learning 0:59:14.720 --> 0:59:17.560 how it to be intellectually curious enough that in the future, 0:59:18.000 --> 0:59:20.840 when you do want to know something, you can teach 0:59:20.880 --> 0:59:24.240 yourself how to know it because you've learned how to learn. 0:59:25.040 --> 0:59:29.000 And in my mind, I'm thinking about how music is 0:59:29.200 --> 0:59:34.760 kind of instilling this desire for pattern recognition, which personally 0:59:34.760 --> 0:59:37.560 I do think benefits life, and I do think benefits 0:59:37.680 --> 0:59:42.840 um oh, problem solving and benefits you know, making a 0:59:42.840 --> 0:59:45.720 grocery list, everything, You know what I mean, Like, patterns 0:59:45.720 --> 0:59:50.120 are extremely useful in our society. So it's it's um 0:59:50.120 --> 0:59:53.880 perhaps it is an evolutionary leftover that makes us enjoy music, 0:59:54.240 --> 0:59:57.600 but perhaps it has stayed with us because it has 0:59:57.640 --> 1:00:00.600 proven to be useful in the regard of like it's 1:00:00.640 --> 1:00:03.520 teaching us, it's improving us, it's making our brains a 1:00:03.600 --> 1:00:05.920 little a little more fits because it's almost like we're 1:00:05.920 --> 1:00:08.760 having a little training session by listening to music, by 1:00:08.840 --> 1:00:12.160 enjoying arts, by enjoying culture, and that makes everything else 1:00:12.160 --> 1:00:13.960 in our lives a little bit better and a little 1:00:14.000 --> 1:00:17.960 bit easier. So, like music is teaching us how to 1:00:18.600 --> 1:00:24.760 learn in a way pure speculation. Well, I definitely think 1:00:24.800 --> 1:00:27.360 there could be something to that, But I would also 1:00:27.400 --> 1:00:30.640 come back at it from the other angle, because it's 1:00:30.680 --> 1:00:34.360 clearly not as simple as music sets up a pattern 1:00:34.560 --> 1:00:38.000 that you can predict, and then when you correctly predict 1:00:38.040 --> 1:00:42.760 the pattern, it's pleasurable because if if music is too predictable, 1:00:43.000 --> 1:00:47.640 it becomes boring. Right, And this goes sort of it, 1:00:47.760 --> 1:00:49.760 at least on the face of it, seemed to go 1:00:49.800 --> 1:00:52.520 against something we were talking about earlier, which is that 1:00:52.600 --> 1:00:56.040 a lot of these peak experiences free sun come precisely 1:00:56.120 --> 1:01:00.200 when patterns are broken or violated. It's not when it's 1:01:00.240 --> 1:01:02.800 the most predictable and you're the easiest to get the 1:01:02.840 --> 1:01:07.520 pattern recognition right. It's when something changes unexpectedly that you 1:01:07.600 --> 1:01:10.520 feel the tingles all over. But at least for me, 1:01:10.640 --> 1:01:14.360 that's the learning aspect of it. Um to to throw 1:01:14.400 --> 1:01:17.840 something in that, perhaps Robert would say, if Robert were here, Um, 1:01:17.880 --> 1:01:20.640 there's a thing with meditation where, um, you know, if 1:01:20.680 --> 1:01:22.480 you're trying to clear your mind and you're trying not 1:01:22.520 --> 1:01:26.120 to think about anything and then you accidentally think about 1:01:26.120 --> 1:01:29.800 a slice of strawberry cheesecake, you know that's bad. In 1:01:29.840 --> 1:01:32.960 the regard that you're trying to think of nothing. However, 1:01:33.600 --> 1:01:37.320 the active energy you take during most kinds of meditation 1:01:37.400 --> 1:01:40.280 to clear your mind again, to go okay, get out 1:01:40.280 --> 1:01:42.800 of my mind, strawberry cheesecake. I'm trying to think about nothing. 1:01:43.480 --> 1:01:46.880 That is akin to like doing a rep. It's like 1:01:46.920 --> 1:01:49.760 a kin to like doing something active to make you better. 1:01:50.280 --> 1:01:56.160 So perhaps the subversion of patterns that we recognize our 1:01:56.240 --> 1:01:59.240 brain does hit the little food pellet switch and go, 1:01:59.240 --> 1:02:02.480 good job, you noticed, you know, aren't you a smart 1:02:02.520 --> 1:02:05.440 little person? Keep up, keep it up. You know you're 1:02:05.520 --> 1:02:09.600 learning here, You're you're you're being um, You're being someone 1:02:09.680 --> 1:02:14.360 trained to understand patterns when they change, and perhaps to 1:02:14.400 --> 1:02:17.360 pay extra attention to when they do change, because that's 1:02:17.520 --> 1:02:19.760 perhaps when life is at its most dangerous, is when 1:02:19.760 --> 1:02:22.640 the when the patterns are subverted, not when the patterns 1:02:22.640 --> 1:02:25.080 are the same. Well, that actually ties into something else 1:02:25.120 --> 1:02:27.240 I came across. So I mentioned earlier that I watched 1:02:27.280 --> 1:02:31.040 that video that was an interview with a music neuroscientists 1:02:31.080 --> 1:02:35.360 named Matt Sachs, and uh Sachs had speculated, now this 1:02:35.400 --> 1:02:39.040 is actually going more back back in a previous uh 1:02:39.200 --> 1:02:42.360 possible explanation that we were talking about for the neurobiological 1:02:42.400 --> 1:02:45.920 mechanisms of pleasure and freees on. But when when you 1:02:45.960 --> 1:02:48.720 go to the idea of the arousal of the autonomic 1:02:48.760 --> 1:02:51.760 nervous system, you know, the fight or flight response, uh, 1:02:51.800 --> 1:02:54.480 and getting goose bumps as a result of a of 1:02:54.600 --> 1:02:58.080 cold or being under threat. Sax is talking about the 1:02:58.120 --> 1:03:01.520 pleasurable response to music in those terms. Maybe getting goose 1:03:01.520 --> 1:03:04.760 bumps is like a threat, and he speculates, I'm not 1:03:04.800 --> 1:03:06.960 sure how much research there is to back this up, 1:03:06.960 --> 1:03:10.720 but he speculates and maybe sometimes high pitched notes or 1:03:10.800 --> 1:03:15.440 sudden dynamic changes in music are actually initially reacted to 1:03:15.520 --> 1:03:18.760 by the body as a kind of threat. And it's 1:03:18.800 --> 1:03:20.880 it's like, you know, when you detect a loud sound, 1:03:21.000 --> 1:03:23.439 what does that usually mean? It usually means like there's 1:03:23.480 --> 1:03:26.400 something you need to pay attention to because it's possibly dangerous. 1:03:26.840 --> 1:03:31.160 But then he speculates that after the startling sounds such 1:03:31.200 --> 1:03:33.200 as the dynamic change in the music or the sudden 1:03:33.280 --> 1:03:37.280 high voice or something is rationalized by the prefrontal cortex 1:03:37.360 --> 1:03:41.360 and judged actually safe, that's when the sense of pleasure comes. 1:03:41.400 --> 1:03:44.360 It's in the realization that your your brain has sort 1:03:44.400 --> 1:03:47.400 of been startled into a semi fight or flight response 1:03:47.440 --> 1:03:50.080 by something in the sound, But actually it's just a 1:03:50.080 --> 1:03:52.920 piece of music, And it's like realizing that the threat 1:03:52.960 --> 1:03:55.680 in a horror movie is not actually dangerous. I was 1:03:55.720 --> 1:03:57.800 just thinking the same thing, like like a horror movie, 1:03:57.880 --> 1:04:02.360 like a roller coaster. It's um a safe exploration of 1:04:02.440 --> 1:04:05.480 fear and anticipation is definitely a big part of that. 1:04:05.520 --> 1:04:07.760 I mean, think about any jump scare in a horror film. 1:04:07.800 --> 1:04:16.920 You know, yeah, interesting, thank thank But anyway, to come 1:04:16.960 --> 1:04:19.720 back to Harrison and Louis. In their summary of of 1:04:19.720 --> 1:04:23.320 a study from two thousand one by Blood and store Uh, 1:04:23.360 --> 1:04:27.240 they write that these researchers quote showed with pet scanning 1:04:27.240 --> 1:04:30.880 of people under musical free san that patterns may reflect 1:04:30.960 --> 1:04:35.440 a craving reflex similar to that surrounding responses for food, sex, 1:04:35.480 --> 1:04:38.680 and drugs of abuse. It's possible, then, that the reason 1:04:38.800 --> 1:04:42.440 we develop such affinity for free san inducing music is 1:04:42.480 --> 1:04:46.720 that once we experience musical free san, we develop a 1:04:46.800 --> 1:04:52.720 dopaminergic anticipation for its return, effectively becoming slightly addicted to 1:04:52.800 --> 1:04:55.960 the musical stimulus. I mean, that's an analogy I've made 1:04:56.040 --> 1:04:59.680 before when it comes to um seeking out new music 1:05:00.080 --> 1:05:02.440 that it is similar to a drug and being a 1:05:02.480 --> 1:05:05.479 person who is very much a teetotaler in every way, 1:05:07.000 --> 1:05:09.440 I do not want to diminish people's actual addictions to 1:05:09.560 --> 1:05:14.280 real drugs, but following the same patterns. Uh yeah, I'm 1:05:14.320 --> 1:05:16.200 just like, Oh, I I think I can find a 1:05:16.360 --> 1:05:18.320 another album, Like I haven't heard a new album that 1:05:18.480 --> 1:05:20.520 really got me excited lately. I gotta I gotta go 1:05:20.520 --> 1:05:22.040 to go down to the record store. I need to 1:05:22.040 --> 1:05:24.720 go find something else. I gotta go dig through some crates. 1:05:24.760 --> 1:05:27.640 And it's just sort of like that feeling of there's 1:05:27.680 --> 1:05:30.640 something out there, there's something out there that's really good, 1:05:30.640 --> 1:05:32.800 and you haven't heard it yet, so you need to 1:05:32.880 --> 1:05:34.880 go get it. You need to go find it, you 1:05:34.920 --> 1:05:37.800 need to talk to people and uh and those are 1:05:37.800 --> 1:05:39.720 the things you can do on record store society, find 1:05:39.720 --> 1:05:44.840 it wherever you find podcasts. Do do you when you're 1:05:44.840 --> 1:05:47.600 seeking out new music? Do you actually have like the 1:05:47.600 --> 1:05:51.080 these direct pleasurable experiences in mind is like sort of 1:05:51.120 --> 1:05:54.840 the thing you're questing after, Because while I do love 1:05:54.880 --> 1:05:57.800 them in music, I remember when I was more obsessed 1:05:57.880 --> 1:06:01.760 with like finding new music, I had a probably a 1:06:01.760 --> 1:06:04.800 stupider idea in my head, which was like, once I 1:06:04.840 --> 1:06:08.920 hear this album, then finally I'll understand music. Do you 1:06:08.960 --> 1:06:11.640 know what I mean? I do? I definitely do. I 1:06:11.640 --> 1:06:15.360 I felt that also, UM where, in particular, if there 1:06:15.360 --> 1:06:19.120 were albums that everyone said, we're truly, truly great, and 1:06:19.200 --> 1:06:21.520 I would go, oh, man, I'm gonna I'm gonna find 1:06:21.560 --> 1:06:24.480 this album. Let's say it's The Velvet Underground Nico, you know, 1:06:24.520 --> 1:06:26.800 the famous one with the Andy Warhol Binna on the cover. 1:06:27.840 --> 1:06:30.520 UM where I'm like, this is that album that everyone 1:06:30.600 --> 1:06:33.200 keeps talking about. One day, I'm gonna find it. I'm 1:06:33.200 --> 1:06:36.000 gonna listen to it, and then I'll know what everyone's 1:06:36.000 --> 1:06:38.480 talking about, and I will have achieved something. It will 1:06:38.560 --> 1:06:42.160 be like a totem somehow that I have found and 1:06:42.200 --> 1:06:44.520 listened to this album. Obviously, this is way before any 1:06:44.600 --> 1:06:46.680 kind of streaming media, so it was much more difficult 1:06:46.960 --> 1:06:49.000 to track down and purchase an album when I was 1:06:49.040 --> 1:06:52.440 a kid. Um. But but in that same regard, I 1:06:52.520 --> 1:06:56.360 would say, to answer your question about seeking it out 1:06:56.600 --> 1:06:59.320 and does that provide some sort of pleasure? I do 1:06:59.520 --> 1:07:03.240 think that for me personally, the things I love most 1:07:03.440 --> 1:07:11.160 in music are um progression change, experimentation, people trying new things. 1:07:11.240 --> 1:07:15.000 I really love really experimental, really you know, for lack 1:07:15.040 --> 1:07:17.720 of a better word, odd music. I really enjoy that. 1:07:18.200 --> 1:07:20.280 And not to say that I don't also enjoy you know, 1:07:20.400 --> 1:07:23.560 some some beatles as well. But um, but that being 1:07:23.600 --> 1:07:26.919 the case, I would not be surprised if deep down, 1:07:26.960 --> 1:07:34.440 subconsciously me perpetually seeking stranger music, seeking the experimental and 1:07:34.520 --> 1:07:39.120 the you know, the the the new, for lack of 1:07:39.120 --> 1:07:43.560 a better word, is perhaps trying to find that thrill again, 1:07:43.800 --> 1:07:47.919 find that that that roller coaster, find that, um that 1:07:48.680 --> 1:07:51.240 that that that that jumps scared from that that scary movie. 1:07:51.280 --> 1:07:54.240 You know. Oh well, this is interesting because this connects 1:07:54.240 --> 1:07:56.280 to something else I was reading. So I was reading 1:07:56.280 --> 1:08:00.480 an interview with a researcher named dr oy In a 1:08:00.920 --> 1:08:04.280 vessel of z Ki, who studies the science of the 1:08:04.360 --> 1:08:06.680 human response to art and aesthetics. That a place called 1:08:06.680 --> 1:08:10.680 the Max Plank Institute for Empirical Aesthetics, and he'd done 1:08:10.720 --> 1:08:14.680 some work on essentially people's frees on reactions not just 1:08:14.760 --> 1:08:18.280 to music, but to other genres of arts, such as poetry, 1:08:18.400 --> 1:08:21.320 because also people can get frees on from poetry, and 1:08:21.360 --> 1:08:22.920 so he did a study on that and one thing 1:08:22.960 --> 1:08:24.920 he noted this was in the context of poetry, but 1:08:24.960 --> 1:08:27.599 I think it's probably also true of music is that 1:08:27.640 --> 1:08:32.400 he found that experienced people need more complexity in order 1:08:32.479 --> 1:08:35.840 to be affected. So basically, the more experience you have 1:08:36.080 --> 1:08:39.679 with a genre of art, usually the weirder you need 1:08:39.680 --> 1:08:42.960 it to be. That makes sense. No I've made this 1:08:43.000 --> 1:08:46.559 analogy myself where people have asked me, oh, why are 1:08:46.600 --> 1:08:49.599 you listening to that noise? Like literally, you know noise. 1:08:49.600 --> 1:08:52.320 There's a lot of noise albums that I very much enjoy, 1:08:52.400 --> 1:08:55.160 and I'm like, I think about it like a foodie 1:08:55.439 --> 1:08:57.680 where there's a person out there who, you know, they 1:08:57.720 --> 1:09:00.439 love pasta, and they ate their pasta and it's oh good. 1:09:00.880 --> 1:09:03.680 But at a certain point, after they've really really focused 1:09:03.680 --> 1:09:07.240 and studied and had so much pasta's coming out their ears, 1:09:07.560 --> 1:09:10.120 they're like, you know what, I think, like, I need 1:09:10.120 --> 1:09:13.479 to go to this like gastro Microbiology center where they 1:09:13.520 --> 1:09:16.719 give me like a pasta foam and like a snifter 1:09:16.920 --> 1:09:21.519 of basil liquefied that I inject in my arm. Like 1:09:21.520 --> 1:09:24.160 like I I do think that all art does eventually 1:09:24.200 --> 1:09:26.000 become stranger and stranger, and I think that goes for 1:09:26.040 --> 1:09:28.840 everything I think that goes for shoes, sneaker heads will 1:09:28.840 --> 1:09:30.880 probably do the same thing, same thing with them people 1:09:30.880 --> 1:09:35.000 who are really into cars, people who are really into um, 1:09:35.040 --> 1:09:38.600 I think everything, honestly, I do think all aesthetic appreciation 1:09:39.280 --> 1:09:43.280 eventually gets really strange because you're perhaps getting a little 1:09:43.280 --> 1:09:45.880 bored and you're looking for that new feeling again, right? 1:09:45.960 --> 1:09:48.439 Does that happen with everything? So I wonder about cars, 1:09:48.479 --> 1:09:51.320 like if you if you are somebody who's obsessed with cars, 1:09:51.360 --> 1:09:53.240 you go to all the auto shows and you read 1:09:53.240 --> 1:09:55.760 all the car blogs and all that. Eventually, are you 1:09:55.840 --> 1:09:59.759 like only interested in batmobiles and rocket powered cars and stuff, 1:09:59.840 --> 1:10:02.559 or like, I don't know, I wonder about that. I 1:10:02.560 --> 1:10:05.040 think this will relate again to what we were looking 1:10:05.080 --> 1:10:07.799 at um before, with like the different kinds of brains, 1:10:08.200 --> 1:10:10.320 where there was the one kind of brain. Um that 1:10:10.360 --> 1:10:12.920 this was when you were talking about openness, how one 1:10:13.080 --> 1:10:16.000 was looking for the novel, looking for the new, and 1:10:16.040 --> 1:10:18.040 the other one was looking for the traditional, looking for 1:10:18.080 --> 1:10:21.360 the essential, you know. And I really do feel like, 1:10:21.560 --> 1:10:24.479 perhaps let's let's take a car example. I think neither 1:10:24.479 --> 1:10:27.080 of us are car guys, but we will put ourselves 1:10:27.080 --> 1:10:29.280 in that world. There is someone that goes to know, 1:10:29.720 --> 1:10:33.920 my nineteen sixties Corvette is the perfect car that I 1:10:33.960 --> 1:10:36.560 will love forever. And then there's another person at the 1:10:36.600 --> 1:10:38.800 same car show who's looking at all the like the 1:10:38.840 --> 1:10:41.080 fancy like I don't even know what they're called, but 1:10:41.200 --> 1:10:44.360 like the like the prototype cars that will never actually 1:10:44.400 --> 1:10:47.560 be made but always look really really neat and futuristic, 1:10:47.640 --> 1:10:51.800 and you know, blade Runner esque. Um, they'll only drive 1:10:51.840 --> 1:10:55.360 one of those spike cars from Fury Road. Yes, And 1:10:55.600 --> 1:10:58.200 so I think both exist, and I think both exist 1:10:58.880 --> 1:11:01.479 in also at every form of arts, like there are 1:11:01.560 --> 1:11:04.240 people who are I only listen to classic rock, and 1:11:04.280 --> 1:11:06.599 there are people who are like, no, I need I 1:11:06.680 --> 1:11:10.559 need some chainsaws on ice cubes, you know, through reverb 1:11:10.680 --> 1:11:13.439 chamber sus so I I it's all there, you know, 1:11:13.800 --> 1:11:17.080 some people like Thomas Kincaid, some people like Picasso, and 1:11:17.120 --> 1:11:19.599 I think it's it's all good. It's all good. And 1:11:19.680 --> 1:11:22.600 I think perhaps what you're talking about with the the 1:11:22.640 --> 1:11:26.160 differences between openness and just what brain connectivity does for 1:11:26.200 --> 1:11:29.800 you personally might might help explain that. And Frizon, yeah, 1:11:29.840 --> 1:11:31.880 I think you could be right about that. So I 1:11:31.960 --> 1:11:34.240 realized time is running short, but there's one more thing 1:11:34.320 --> 1:11:35.960 I wanted to hit before we wrap up, because I 1:11:36.000 --> 1:11:39.600 think this is interesting as well. Um So I came across, 1:11:39.640 --> 1:11:42.759 like I mentioned, this researcher named Oregon Vessel of is Key. 1:11:42.800 --> 1:11:44.640 He's got a study I was looking at published in 1:11:44.720 --> 1:11:47.479 Social Cognitive and affect of Neuroscience. But I actually found 1:11:47.520 --> 1:11:50.439 what was really interesting was an interview with him done 1:11:50.439 --> 1:11:55.360 by a poetry journal called The Napkin Poetry Review. And 1:11:55.560 --> 1:11:59.960 in this interview, this guy was talking about the constant 1:12:00.040 --> 1:12:03.120 upt of pleasure in negative emotions, which I think is 1:12:03.160 --> 1:12:05.240 something that really does need to be addressed if we're 1:12:05.240 --> 1:12:09.080 talking about uh freesan in in music, because it's so 1:12:09.120 --> 1:12:11.600 often in in songs that are sad or have some 1:12:11.680 --> 1:12:14.880 kind of negative valence. And actually he points out that, 1:12:14.920 --> 1:12:18.719 you know, Aristotle wrote about this apparent paradox, like why 1:12:18.760 --> 1:12:22.439 do people enjoy going to the theater to watch tragic 1:12:22.520 --> 1:12:25.880 plays that are full of pity and fear and anguish? 1:12:25.920 --> 1:12:29.320 Are these emotions not painful when we experience them in 1:12:29.360 --> 1:12:31.920 our lives And the answer is yes, they are. But 1:12:31.960 --> 1:12:36.240 there must be something about experiencing them in the context 1:12:36.320 --> 1:12:41.440 of a play that transforms these negative emotions into something pleasurable. 1:12:41.520 --> 1:12:44.720 That we want to seek out and repeat. And as 1:12:44.720 --> 1:12:46.880 an analogy, you might think, of course, about that sad 1:12:46.920 --> 1:12:49.400 song you can't stop listening to. There's some kind of 1:12:49.479 --> 1:12:54.280 pleasure in the aesthetics of sadness. Um. Now, another way 1:12:54.280 --> 1:12:57.599 of possibly explaining this is that Aristotle wrote also about 1:12:57.600 --> 1:13:01.080 the the complexity of negative emotions them elves, and how 1:13:01.080 --> 1:13:05.360 they often contain pleasurable aspects. So, for example, he wrote 1:13:05.400 --> 1:13:08.559 that anger always has an element of pleasure in it 1:13:08.640 --> 1:13:12.360 because the person who's angry is always at some level 1:13:12.439 --> 1:13:16.360 sort of experiencing a thrill from from the expectation of 1:13:16.479 --> 1:13:20.200 vengeance for you know, the way they've been wronged and uh, 1:13:20.200 --> 1:13:22.479 and obviously you know, there's a lot of media that 1:13:22.600 --> 1:13:27.000 clearly seems geared towards just making people recreationally angry. Sometimes 1:13:27.000 --> 1:13:30.120 people want to get angry about stuff. But you could 1:13:30.120 --> 1:13:32.720 also say that the same could be true about sadness, 1:13:32.760 --> 1:13:36.439 that maybe there is something going on with sadness, that 1:13:36.680 --> 1:13:40.000 maybe sadness can be pleasurable in some ways, if it's 1:13:40.040 --> 1:13:43.000 just say, due to separation of loss, because there's this 1:13:43.120 --> 1:13:47.160 pleasurable anticipation of redemption and reunion, the same way that 1:13:47.439 --> 1:13:50.920 anger could be pleasurable because there's this anticipation of revenge. 1:13:52.080 --> 1:13:55.000 But anyway, for so for for this researcher of Vasalowski, 1:13:55.400 --> 1:13:57.439 he said that this ended up making him want to 1:13:57.479 --> 1:14:01.000 study that the concept of being moved moved, which is 1:14:01.479 --> 1:14:05.240 something that's clearly not just like pleasurable or painful. It 1:14:05.360 --> 1:14:09.080 is this intense emotional state that can blend positive and 1:14:09.160 --> 1:14:12.479 negative emotions into a single episode. It's it's pleasure and 1:14:12.520 --> 1:14:16.960 pain indivisible, actually um and that he u. He added 1:14:16.960 --> 1:14:19.840 a hypothesis onto this concept of being moved, which has 1:14:19.880 --> 1:14:23.200 been explored by by philosophers for centuries, which is that 1:14:23.320 --> 1:14:27.960 it seems like peaque moments of being moved, having this ambiguous, 1:14:28.000 --> 1:14:32.200 complex emotional episode where you're experiencing both maybe joy and 1:14:32.240 --> 1:14:35.880 sadness at the same time. Those experiences tend to be 1:14:35.960 --> 1:14:39.840 marked by emotional chills or goose bumps. Yet again, and 1:14:39.880 --> 1:14:42.320 so he did some research looking into this in people's 1:14:42.360 --> 1:14:46.360 responses to poetry and uh and in talking about possible 1:14:46.439 --> 1:14:49.559 reasons why people why we might have this reaction, he says, 1:14:49.600 --> 1:14:53.559 you know, it could be that it's it's conceptually when 1:14:53.680 --> 1:14:58.000 something feels important and at stake, you know, when when 1:14:58.000 --> 1:15:02.320 it feels like that the autonomic nervous system is aroused 1:15:02.360 --> 1:15:06.840 and causes this goose bumps reaction, uh that is presented 1:15:06.880 --> 1:15:10.000 to the conscious brain as a sort of signal that's 1:15:10.040 --> 1:15:12.439 something that's going on in the art that you're listening. 1:15:12.479 --> 1:15:14.200 You know, the music you're listening to or the poem 1:15:14.240 --> 1:15:17.599 you're reading, something important seems to be up for grabs, 1:15:17.640 --> 1:15:19.759 and that you need to be on alert and remember 1:15:19.840 --> 1:15:24.280 what's happening. Makes sense. And this comes back to you know, 1:15:24.320 --> 1:15:26.479 I can think of a lot of the things that 1:15:26.600 --> 1:15:29.920 give me goose bumps in art that are somewhat positive, 1:15:30.000 --> 1:15:32.919 but they also, like I was saying earlier with lie Miserab, 1:15:33.000 --> 1:15:37.080 they involves some element of like risk or change, maybe 1:15:37.400 --> 1:15:41.439 displays of courage or new possibilities, which are themselves often 1:15:41.560 --> 1:15:44.600 very very kind of scary. So coming back to what 1:15:44.720 --> 1:15:46.920 Vassal of Whisky says in this interview, he says, you 1:15:46.960 --> 1:15:50.160 have the negative emotion on the foreground and this antidote 1:15:50.160 --> 1:15:53.479 in the background, or vice versa. But there's always this clash. 1:15:53.560 --> 1:15:57.320 You can't really decide on if it's now positive or negative, 1:15:57.600 --> 1:16:00.400 So it's somehow both and this creates a lot of tension. 1:16:00.840 --> 1:16:03.920 But importantly, we can experience this clash from an aesthetic 1:16:04.040 --> 1:16:07.760 distance mode. So it's something about the the ambiguity of 1:16:07.800 --> 1:16:11.640 these uh, these you know, stimuli that elicit a combination 1:16:11.760 --> 1:16:14.720 of of pleasure and pain, of joy and sadness at 1:16:14.720 --> 1:16:17.280 the same time that caused this feeling of being moved. 1:16:17.680 --> 1:16:20.519 Something about the the high stakes that seem to be 1:16:20.560 --> 1:16:25.520 suggested by these by these complex emotional states, maybe stimulate 1:16:25.560 --> 1:16:28.400 the autonomic nervous system because it's making your body in 1:16:28.520 --> 1:16:31.880 some conceptual sense, feel threatened, as if there was like 1:16:31.920 --> 1:16:34.479 a bearer menacing you, and it's trying to get your 1:16:34.520 --> 1:16:38.360 attention to do something about this, this concept that's being raised. 1:16:39.000 --> 1:16:41.479 But then again, as with what we talked about before, 1:16:41.560 --> 1:16:44.160 maybe it's possible that you realize you can trigger this 1:16:44.240 --> 1:16:48.040 response with some kind of aesthetic stimulus like music or poetry. 1:16:48.600 --> 1:16:51.280 And then once you realize you can trigger it, the 1:16:52.200 --> 1:16:54.680 reward system in the brain just wants to get it 1:16:54.720 --> 1:16:57.000 again and says, well, let's try that again and again, 1:16:57.439 --> 1:17:00.680 and and that's what motivates perhaps the play measurable kind 1:17:00.680 --> 1:17:04.240 of feeling there, it's the grasping after it. Yeah, I 1:17:04.360 --> 1:17:07.040 think we've answered some quell I'm not gonna say we've 1:17:07.080 --> 1:17:10.520 answered some questions, but like you said, we we've identified 1:17:10.560 --> 1:17:12.960 some puzzle pieces, we've laid them out on the table, 1:17:13.439 --> 1:17:16.080 and we've taken a good look at them. What seems 1:17:16.120 --> 1:17:18.240 most compelling to you now that we've talked about all this. 1:17:19.240 --> 1:17:23.840 I do think that Frison seems to me to be 1:17:24.200 --> 1:17:29.680 an evolutionary leftover that is tied to the fight or 1:17:29.680 --> 1:17:34.640 flight response, and that perhaps our brains have misinterpreted it 1:17:35.280 --> 1:17:39.559 into something that has made us enjoy art in many ways, 1:17:39.600 --> 1:17:44.320 but in particular music, which doesn't make a lot of sense. However, 1:17:45.360 --> 1:17:48.000 that's what it's it's adding up to in my mind. 1:17:48.360 --> 1:17:52.439 And yeah, and this could this is a this is 1:17:52.479 --> 1:17:55.639 a deep, deep situation that we've we've kind of dug 1:17:55.640 --> 1:17:58.479 ourselves into, and I'm not sure if we'll be able 1:17:58.520 --> 1:18:00.240 to get out all right. Well, the next thing is 1:18:00.280 --> 1:18:03.200 everybody's gotta go listen to Record Store Society. What's a 1:18:03.240 --> 1:18:05.360 what's a good episode for people to start off with? 1:18:05.479 --> 1:18:08.479 Is something you've done recently? You think people should look up? Well, 1:18:08.560 --> 1:18:11.880 if they specifically want to hear you and Robert, they 1:18:11.880 --> 1:18:14.440 got to check out let's see. I think that's episode 1:18:14.640 --> 1:18:18.360 seventeen and that episode is called Video Dream and that's 1:18:18.360 --> 1:18:21.000 the one where we do a deep dive into a 1:18:21.080 --> 1:18:25.040 whole bunch of our favorite music videos. Um, let's see 1:18:25.040 --> 1:18:29.000 there's a lot of other really good ones. Oh man. Um, 1:18:29.040 --> 1:18:31.599 there's a really great one called EP or Not EP. 1:18:32.000 --> 1:18:36.120 That's episode nineteen where that's there's a music journalist and 1:18:36.160 --> 1:18:39.040 author Matt Lamay. He was one of the uh like 1:18:39.120 --> 1:18:43.360 the like original like a Pitchfork writers back in the day. Um, 1:18:43.520 --> 1:18:46.559 and that's a really fun conversation. We've got a really 1:18:46.600 --> 1:18:50.000 great episode coming out this Friday, but I I suppose 1:18:50.600 --> 1:18:53.200 yeah it's tomorrow. I can, I can stay here tomorrow. 1:18:53.200 --> 1:18:56.000 I've got this really great musician named m Sage. He's 1:18:56.000 --> 1:18:59.960 one of my favorites. And um, we're discussing music document 1:19:00.080 --> 1:19:03.559 trees and that's a very fun deep well so uh 1:19:03.960 --> 1:19:07.240 because I'm I'm stage. In addition to being a wonderful musician, 1:19:07.560 --> 1:19:11.560 also happens to be a film professor in Chicago at 1:19:11.600 --> 1:19:14.639 a university. So uh, he he's got a really great 1:19:15.120 --> 1:19:19.799 um dual knowledge that really music documentaries are the perfect 1:19:19.800 --> 1:19:21.599 subject to have him talk about. So he's a lot 1:19:21.640 --> 1:19:24.360 of fun. So anyway, Uh, there's always something fun going 1:19:24.400 --> 1:19:28.200 on every episode's good. But but those are a few alright, folks. Well, 1:19:28.240 --> 1:19:30.280 if that catches your fancy, you should go check out 1:19:30.320 --> 1:19:34.880 Seth's podcast, Record Store Society. Uh. In the meantime, I'll 1:19:34.880 --> 1:19:36.479 see do we have anything else? Now? I guess that 1:19:36.520 --> 1:19:38.760 wraps it up for today. But um, but yeah, if 1:19:38.800 --> 1:19:41.480 you want to find any more of your of our podcasts, 1:19:41.520 --> 1:19:43.160 we are stuff to blow your mind. You can find 1:19:43.200 --> 1:19:45.960 us wherever you get your podcast. We're on all the platforms, 1:19:46.000 --> 1:19:48.200 all the stuff like that, or you can just google us. 1:19:48.800 --> 1:19:51.680 Of course, Please, as always hit subscribe if you're not 1:19:51.720 --> 1:19:53.600 subscribe so you can get all of the episodes we 1:19:53.640 --> 1:19:56.120 put out in the future. Big thanks as always to 1:19:56.280 --> 1:19:59.160 Seth who is our wonderful producer, produces every episode of 1:19:59.200 --> 1:20:01.840 this show and does it does such a great job. Seth, 1:20:01.920 --> 1:20:04.040 we love you and well I really appreciate you coming 1:20:04.080 --> 1:20:06.479 on the show today. Very happy to do it. And 1:20:06.800 --> 1:20:09.200 Robert will be back next time. That's right, yes, so 1:20:09.479 --> 1:20:11.879 Robert will be back on the show in the next episode. 1:20:12.360 --> 1:20:13.880 And in the meantime, if you want to get in 1:20:13.920 --> 1:20:15.960 touch with us to give us feedback on this episode 1:20:16.040 --> 1:20:18.160 or any other to suggest topic for the future, just 1:20:18.200 --> 1:20:20.640 to say hello. You can email us at contact at 1:20:20.680 --> 1:20:30.559 Stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. Stuff to Blow 1:20:30.600 --> 1:20:33.160 Your Mind is production of I Heart Radio. For more 1:20:33.160 --> 1:20:35.200 podcasts for my heart Radio, this is the i heart 1:20:35.240 --> 1:20:38.000 Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to your 1:20:38.000 --> 1:20:47.519 favorite shows.