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Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name

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Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and it's Saturday.

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Speaker 1: Time for an episode from the Vault. This one originally

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Speaker 1: aired June tenth, and this is the episode that our

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Speaker 1: producer Seth and I did on musical free Son that

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Speaker 1: feeling when you get shivers or goose bumps from listening

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Speaker 1: to music. Uh so, yeah, we hope you enjoy. Welcome

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Speaker 1: to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, production of My Heart Radio. Hello,

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Speaker 1: and welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. I'm Joe

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Speaker 1: McCormick and my regular co host Robert Lamb is not

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Speaker 1: with us today. He is out on vacation, but as

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Speaker 1: a special treat I am being joined by our in

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Speaker 1: house audio sorcerer, Seth Nicholas Johnson. Say Hi Seth, Hello, everyone,

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Speaker 1: it's me Seth. How are you doing today? I'm doing great,

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Speaker 1: happy to be on this side of the microphone, happy

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Speaker 1: to help out with while Roberts out of town. And

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Speaker 1: I'm very happy, um with the subject matter that you

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Speaker 1: chose today. So I'm looking forward to this right We're

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Speaker 1: so we're doing a musical themed episode today. Um, because Seth,

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Speaker 1: you host another podcast. Do you want to tell listeners

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Speaker 1: who are not familiar with the Record Store Society what

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Speaker 1: it's all about? Surely? Um yeah. So obviously the main

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Speaker 1: chunk of my time I spend producing this show stuff

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Speaker 1: to blow your mind. But I also do a weekly

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Speaker 1: show with that I host with my co host, Tara Davies,

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Speaker 1: and it's called Record Store Society, and um, basically, it's

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Speaker 1: a podcast for music nerds, by music nerds, and it's um,

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Speaker 1: full blown, just a talk show where people can just

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Speaker 1: share recommendations things we've been listening to lately, what we love,

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Speaker 1: play some music based games that you can't really play

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Speaker 1: with other people because you're going very specific and very

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Speaker 1: nerdy about your music tastes. But we pretend we're in

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Speaker 1: a record store the whole time. That's the gimmick. That's

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Speaker 1: the fun little gimmick where we just uh uh yeah,

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Speaker 1: there's we have sound effects and all of our guests

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Speaker 1: are customers and me and my co host are the

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Speaker 1: employees of the record store and uh yeah, it's fun.

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Speaker 1: It's called Record Store Society and you can find it

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Speaker 1: wherever you find your podcasts. It's a great show, folks.

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Speaker 1: I personally recommended in fact, Rob and I did a

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Speaker 1: guest episode where we appeared on Record Store Society one time.

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Speaker 1: How long ago is that now? Is a couple of

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Speaker 1: months ago where we ended up talking. Yeah, it was

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Speaker 1: music videos. Yes, it was a great one and m Yeah,

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Speaker 1: tons of fun everyone. If if anyone's in the mood

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Speaker 1: for music talk, if you're looking for new music recommendations,

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Speaker 1: or you just feel kind of lonely that you don't

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Speaker 1: none of your friends, will you know, go on a

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Speaker 1: deep dive about, you know, bootleg Neil Young albums. Then

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Speaker 1: you know you can listen to Record Store Society and

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Speaker 1: well we'll scratch that itch. Speaking of bootleg Neil Young albums,

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Speaker 1: you ever see that video where he's like going around

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Speaker 1: in record stores and he's finding bootlegs and he's like

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Speaker 1: taking them without paying. Yes, I mean you love it.

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Speaker 1: You know, there's something about a musical curmudgeon that always

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Speaker 1: makes me very happy. And he's a good one. He's

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Speaker 1: a very good musical curmudgeon. Yeah, yeah, it's great. He

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Speaker 1: like takes it up. He's like, I'm on this record

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Speaker 1: and I don't know what this is. Um, But so anyway,

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Speaker 1: because Seth of the Record Store Society is joining us today.

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Speaker 1: We thought we would talk about a musical topic, and

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Speaker 1: I think we've got a really interesting one that ties

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Speaker 1: up with neuroscience, big puzzles about how our brains work, emotions,

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Speaker 1: the reward system in the brain, music and aesthetics and

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Speaker 1: fear and UH and the autonomic nervous system and all that,

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Speaker 1: and so what we're talking about today is those moments

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Speaker 1: when music is not just fun or interesting or intellectually pleasurable,

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Speaker 1: but when musical pleasure sort of grabs you at the

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Speaker 1: level of the body, when it sends a shiver down

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Speaker 1: your spine, or when it causes tingling on your skin

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Speaker 1: or even feeling like it's under your skin, or when

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Speaker 1: it raises goose by umps on your forearms or on

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Speaker 1: your neck, or when it puts a lump in your throat. Today,

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Speaker 1: we're going to be talking about what is sometimes called

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Speaker 1: free san or frisson uh in the words of one review.

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Speaker 1: We're going to be looking at today it is a

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Speaker 1: transcendent psycho physiological moment of musical experience. It's the it's

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Speaker 1: the moment where music grabs you by the body and

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Speaker 1: not just the mind. Now, Sathe you actually suggested this

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Speaker 1: topic when we were batting around ideas about what to

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Speaker 1: do today. Do you remember how this came to your mind?

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Speaker 1: What's the story here? Um, it's a concept I very much. Um,

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Speaker 1: I've done mild research into into the past. I'm a

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Speaker 1: person who feels for song or however we're going to pronounce.

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Speaker 1: How do you think you're going to pronounce it today, Joe, Well, dang,

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Speaker 1: I've already been thinking, so I've been saying in my head.

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Speaker 1: Free song comes from the French comes from a French

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Speaker 1: word meaning shiver, shiver is a now and like he

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Speaker 1: gave me a shiver. But but I've seen plenty of

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Speaker 1: people also all it frissan so or frossan. So we're

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Speaker 1: probably gonna jump around, but I'll try to be as

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Speaker 1: annoying as possible about it. But I'll try to go

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Speaker 1: with frees on as well. Um yeah, yeah, and um

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Speaker 1: aesthetic chills is the is my favorite definition of freesan.

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Speaker 1: And um, it's something I experience a lot. And as

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Speaker 1: a big music fan, I've often thought, am I a

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Speaker 1: big music fan because I acutely feel freesan very often?

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Speaker 1: Or do I experience frees on often because I'm such

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Speaker 1: a big music fan and I spend so much of

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Speaker 1: my time listening to and thinking about it and diving

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Speaker 1: deep and spending all my money on records and blah

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Speaker 1: blah blah. Like it's a Chicken or the egg situation,

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Speaker 1: which I don't think we can ever have an answer to,

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Speaker 1: but it's an interesting idea. And um, I've also not

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Speaker 1: too long ago learned that, of course, not everyone experiences it,

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Speaker 1: which is another very strange aspect. When you feel something

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Speaker 1: that you enjoy, like just like whether it be you know, um,

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Speaker 1: the taste of something sour and you go, oh, other

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Speaker 1: people don't taste sour, and you would go, wait a minute.

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Speaker 1: I thought everyone had this, And that's that's kind of

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Speaker 1: what I felt when I learned that frees on isn't

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Speaker 1: something that everyone experiences. And anyway, you you're so good

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Speaker 1: at researching things, I thought you would uh answer some

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Speaker 1: questions for me. So I'm I'm I'm ecstatic with with

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Speaker 1: what you've looked into already. Well, I don't think we're

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Speaker 1: going to have full closure on all of the causes

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Speaker 1: of this of this phenomenon today, but we can raise

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Speaker 1: some questions and bring up some findings that point off

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Speaker 1: an interesting directions This is one of those that I

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Speaker 1: think is still somewhat of a puzzle. But there are

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Speaker 1: a lot of pieces of it that are on the

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Speaker 1: table now and you can arrange them around in different

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Speaker 1: ways and get some ideas of what to do. But

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Speaker 1: maybe it would be good to start describing really strong

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Speaker 1: examples that unfortunately necessarily, I think these are going to

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Speaker 1: have to be subjective. That we will talk about examples

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Speaker 1: that affect us personally. But one thing you'll find is

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Speaker 1: that you know, musical passages are especially prone to eliciting

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Speaker 1: free song in many people, but there's nothing that's universal,

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Speaker 1: So what gets you might not get somebody else, and

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Speaker 1: vice versa. Um. But I I specifically have a memory

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Speaker 1: from when I was in college of I guess a

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Speaker 1: couple of days, or maybe it was even a stretch

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Speaker 1: of a week where I was just listening to one

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Speaker 1: song over and over again. I would like, maybe multiple

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Speaker 1: times a day, put on my headphones, turn the volume

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Speaker 1: way up, and just listen to the same song over

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Speaker 1: and over again with my head bent down and my

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Speaker 1: eyes closed. It was a song by by Rout that

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Speaker 1: is called non Taste, and it has this moment where

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Speaker 1: you know it starts off kind of quiet, and then

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Speaker 1: suddenly it becomes loud. The rest of the band comes in,

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Speaker 1: the rhythm kicks in, UH, and there's a there's clicking percussion,

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Speaker 1: and and when that happens, I would just feel these

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Speaker 1: waves of tingling and goose bumps, and I would do

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Speaker 1: it over and over again, almost like I was addicted

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Speaker 1: to it. It sort of colors my memory of my

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Speaker 1: experiences of you know, that summer two thousand whatever it was. UH.

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Speaker 1: And another thing is I was thinking, I still really

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Speaker 1: love music, but I don't really do things like that anymore.

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Speaker 1: I would sometimes do that with songs, especially when I

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Speaker 1: was in high school and college. And it makes me

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Speaker 1: kind of wonder if age might be a factor in

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Speaker 1: in how often and how intensely you experience free song,

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Speaker 1: or in how motivated you are to have the experience

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Speaker 1: again and again. How does that line up with your

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Speaker 1: experience It does, However, I would say that I don't

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Speaker 1: believe mine has waned at all, and I'm not really sure.

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Speaker 1: I can't explain that either. I can't explain why, um

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Speaker 1: something that like when I was in like middle school

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Speaker 1: and high school, I was always the kid with the

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Speaker 1: largest CD collection. I had like the giant binder full

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Speaker 1: of CDs and it was the only thing I cared about,

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Speaker 1: and blah blah blah. And you know that at that

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Speaker 1: time when music obsession is very very common. I think

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Speaker 1: most people feel music obsession during those teenage through high school. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I guess it's all teenage years. I often had people

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Speaker 1: tell me, oh, when I was your age, I love

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Speaker 1: music too, you'll grow out of it. I heard that

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Speaker 1: again and again and again, and here I am knocking

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Speaker 1: on middle age, and I haven't really changed too much,

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Speaker 1: and I just kind of became a different kind of

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Speaker 1: music fan, I guess, which is now why I host

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Speaker 1: that music show too, and have hosted other music podcasts

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Speaker 1: in my life. And that's why I run a record label.

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Speaker 1: It's why I'm a musician. It's it's all these things

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Speaker 1: that I do and really enjoy. So yes, I I

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Speaker 1: fully agree with you that there is this thing that

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Speaker 1: it must be something like a dopamine release. And we'll

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Speaker 1: get more into like the specific details about what's happening

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Speaker 1: chemically and all that kind of stuff later, But no,

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Speaker 1: I I think I still feel it pretty acutely. I

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Speaker 1: think I still um do obsess over songs far too much,

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Speaker 1: and talk about music far too much, and go into

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Speaker 1: all those things. And um, here's another thing that I'm

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Speaker 1: not sure if we'll get too later. You and I

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Speaker 1: are also both musicians in our own ways. You know,

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Speaker 1: we are people who write, record and play music. Um,

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Speaker 1: extremely amateur on my part, but yes, but that's still

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Speaker 1: something that not a lot of people do. And I

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Speaker 1: wonder if being a musician has something to do with

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Speaker 1: this as well, something that has to do with that

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Speaker 1: wiring your brain, that that self serving dopamine plunger, That

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Speaker 1: that being a rat with a test and hitting the

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Speaker 1: little buttons you can get your little food pellets. I

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Speaker 1: can't answer these questions, but that's something that makes me

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Speaker 1: think of sometimes when I'm playing something over and over

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Speaker 1: and over again, whether I'm listening to it or with

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Speaker 1: my hand I'm playing on a musical instrument, I think

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Speaker 1: about that rats getting a food pellet. Like you're listening

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Speaker 1: to that Bay Roots song, you know, it's just like

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Speaker 1: and one more please and one more please. I don't know,

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Speaker 1: I was trying to think of other songs that I mean,

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Speaker 1: I know they're there are tons that are just not

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Speaker 1: coming to mind, but I was making a list while

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Speaker 1: we were getting ready to record this of moments and

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Speaker 1: songs that I know regularly caused Free song for me.

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Speaker 1: One is another one I was thinking of is the

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Speaker 1: pre chorus in the song Alex Chilton by the Replacements.

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Speaker 1: Do you know the part I'm talking about where the

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Speaker 1: the verse transitions to suddenly the background harmonies come in,

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Speaker 1: coinciding with the lines of the lyrics Children by the

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Speaker 1: Millions sing for Alex Chilton on that party always does

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Speaker 1: it for me? Um. I was also thinking about there

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Speaker 1: is a there's an awesome soul song called into Something

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Speaker 1: Can't Shake Loose by ov Right where I experienced Free

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Speaker 1: song multiple points in the song, but especially as the

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Speaker 1: intro has these chord changes on the piano along with

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Speaker 1: uh sort of plaintive vocals uh cycling through the same lyrics,

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Speaker 1: but with with these chord changes leading up to when

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Speaker 1: the rhythm kicks in and the strings come in. Never

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Speaker 1: never will a game saying loo no and uh yeah

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Speaker 1: chills all over from it. I mean, I I think

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Speaker 1: if you experience this, there definitely um high points that

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Speaker 1: you can always remember. Like off off top of my head,

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Speaker 1: there are always a couple of really strong examples UM,

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Speaker 1: and perhaps some of these examples that we're listing, we'll

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Speaker 1: be able to actually somewhat dissect and understand why these

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Speaker 1: examples hold so strong for us. UM. There's a song

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Speaker 1: called Modern World by Wolf Parade where basically the entire

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Speaker 1: second half of the song is this building extended chorus.

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Speaker 1: Ye we're just like you know, it's a it's repetitive,

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Speaker 1: but maybe like every bar to another instrument is added,

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Speaker 1: another element is added, and then like you're you're I

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Speaker 1: I literally feel chills thinking about it right now because

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Speaker 1: I can hear those notes in my head and there's

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Speaker 1: something to do with pattern that really really brings you

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Speaker 1: home and expectation. Um. There's there's also this really great

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Speaker 1: song UM by Animal Collective called Banshee Beat that's very slow,

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Speaker 1: very very very UM. It's a it's a languid song,

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Speaker 1: you know, very stretched out, and then every once in

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Speaker 1: a while, the lead singer A V. Taire just hits

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Speaker 1: these notes where he says swimming pool feel, and it's

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Speaker 1: like it erupts out of him like a volcano would

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Speaker 1: erupt lava. And it's though those moments as well, they're

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Speaker 1: there there there, I mean, and I also do think that,

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Speaker 1: like you were saying before, it's very subjective. UM. For example,

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Speaker 1: when I was talking about this with my wife Lizzie

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Speaker 1: last night, and she showed me a Loofer Janya song

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Speaker 1: and I was like, oh, yeah, I know that song,

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Speaker 1: and she's like, that's the one for me, that's the

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Speaker 1: one that gives me the chills. And I'm like, not

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Speaker 1: a great song, but I've never felt it for that

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Speaker 1: and and so so I think you are correct where

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Speaker 1: it is. Just it's a subjective feeling built into us individually,

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Speaker 1: and sometimes it's shared, but I think quite often it's not.

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Speaker 1: I think it's very personal most of the time. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's an interesting phenomenon that seems to involve both cognitive

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Speaker 1: and emotional elements. Like it's cognitive in that uh sort

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Speaker 1: of sort of knowledge and context matters, and like it

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Speaker 1: it matters how much attention you're paying to the music,

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Speaker 1: Like music that's on in the background is usually unlikely

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Speaker 1: to cause free song. I don't know if you have

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Speaker 1: the same experience. It's especially when you're really listening actively

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Speaker 1: that it happens, especially at higher volume. UM. But the

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Speaker 1: other thing is that it sometimes it gets the better

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Speaker 1: of you, or at least in my experience, I can

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Speaker 1: get free song from songs that um that I don't

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Speaker 1: want to be unkind, but that I might regard as

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Speaker 1: sort of like blatantly manipulative or what some people might

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Speaker 1: call hack songwriting. You know, I don't like to just

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Speaker 1: like crap all over music, but like, there there are

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Speaker 1: songs that uh, that I like, but like I acknowledge

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Speaker 1: that they're very cheesy. You know, they're not necessarily they

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Speaker 1: don't convey emotional maturity, and yet they still can cause

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Speaker 1: this intense reaction when I was thinking of is uh.

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Speaker 1: In fact, there are several songs, probably by Jim Steinman,

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Speaker 1: that do this for me. Who he hits it seems

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Speaker 1: like he hits all of the bars. I was thinking

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Speaker 1: about the song Nowhere Fast from the movie Streets of Fire,

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Speaker 1: which is intensely cheesy Jim Steinman pop songwriting, but like

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Speaker 1: on the pre chorus, when you know, the high voices

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Speaker 1: come in, jumps up an octave and it's really loud,

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Speaker 1: and I get the shivers, and I I um, I've

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Speaker 1: definitely experienced the same thing, and that line between cheesy

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Speaker 1: and emotional and what your body is actually taking in

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Speaker 1: as opposed to perhaps what your brain thinks differently of it,

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Speaker 1: Like there's like an intellectual and an emotional place where

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Speaker 1: it hits you. And sometimes I'm not even sure if

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Speaker 1: this is true. Um there's a feeling of embarrassment almost

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Speaker 1: for the performer. And then you think to yourself, are

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Speaker 1: these chills that I'm feeling part of free san or

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Speaker 1: are these chills perhaps some sort of like almost like

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Speaker 1: a cringe thing. And I think it's usually free song.

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Speaker 1: I don't think it's usual be embarrassment, but they're they're

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Speaker 1: They're not too good for Jim Steinmann exactly, but I

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Speaker 1: do think they are like somehow, perhaps like neighbors in

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Speaker 1: a way. And I think there is something about emotional

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Speaker 1: poll compared with intellectual poll, and them working in tandem

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Speaker 1: can create this emotion becauseuse at the end of the day,

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Speaker 1: a lot of music is just math. It's a lot

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Speaker 1: of patterns, it's a lot of um time signatures, it's

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Speaker 1: a lot of you know, hitting things at the correct time.

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Speaker 1: And so in addition to that, there's that's the intellectual side,

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Speaker 1: and then there's the performance aspect, which brings an emotional side,

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Speaker 1: and that can I I am going down a rabbit

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Speaker 1: hole here. But I think you understand what I'm saying.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, totally. UM. One last example for people

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Speaker 1: to think about, maybe before we move on to UH,

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Speaker 1: to dissecting the concept a little bit more is UH.

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Speaker 1: This is one example I came across by way of

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Speaker 1: a researcher named Matt Sacks. I was watching an interview

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Speaker 1: with him that I found on the internet and UH

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Speaker 1: and he mentioned that in demonstrating musical free song in

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Speaker 1: his lectures, he used an isolated track of the background

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Speaker 1: vocals from the song Gimme Shelter by the Rolling Stones.

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Speaker 1: And those background vocals are sung by a singer named

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Speaker 1: Mary Clayton. And when you when you when I hear

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Speaker 1: them in the song, I mean, I love Gimme Shelter.

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Speaker 1: It's classic rock song and it's great. But the song

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Speaker 1: itself does not give me chills. However, the isolated background

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Speaker 1: vocals by Mary Clayton absolutely give me chills, it all

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Speaker 1: up and down the body. Uh. And and I think

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Speaker 1: that's interesting too, that you could actually heighten the effect

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Speaker 1: in some cases by removing other elements and isolating just

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Speaker 1: one part of a song. Uh. And Sax has actually

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Speaker 1: said in this interview, I was watching that. Um, something

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Speaker 1: like nine percent of people say that this one example

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Speaker 1: gives them chills. It seems to be like a sort

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Speaker 1: of home run example to use. Let's try it on

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Speaker 1: our audience for a seconds now. We're gonna give you

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Speaker 1: the caveat here that because of legal fair use stuff,

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Speaker 1: I can only play about ten seconds for you, so

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Speaker 1: you may not feel it in this moment, but perhaps

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Speaker 1: if you look this up on your own and listen

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Speaker 1: to the full thing. However, I gotta say, um, when

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Speaker 1: I listened to this track for the first time, UM,

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Speaker 1: with this isolated Mary Clayton thing, it kicked in for

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Speaker 1: me pretty quickly. So here, let's play a little bit

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Speaker 1: of that track right now. So that's the Mary Clayton

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Speaker 1: isolated vocal there and powerful. Yeah, absolutely is um. There's

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Speaker 1: a lot of ways that people have described this feeling, like, like,

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Speaker 1: what are a few of them? Oh? Yeah, So there

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Speaker 1: are different terms people of use. Some people call it

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Speaker 1: aesthetic chills. Some people say musical chills. Because obviously part

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Speaker 1: of the sensation is similar aler to feeling cold, they're

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Speaker 1: also somewhat different. There's a a tingling or shivering sensation

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Speaker 1: that runs up different parts of the body. Different uh

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Speaker 1: studies have looked at feeling this in different parts of

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Speaker 1: the body, but it seems to sometimes happen in the limbs,

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Speaker 1: like in the arms or legs, or up and down

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Speaker 1: the spine. Of course, there is the term free so

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Speaker 1: on which we've been using today, and that's from the

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Speaker 1: French word meaning shiver. Uh. Some people have used the

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Speaker 1: term uh skin orgasm, which that seems uh in some

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Speaker 1: ways kind of kind of phenomenologically accurate with some of

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Speaker 1: the sensations, but it also brings in a lot of

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Speaker 1: baggage that's not that's perhaps confusing. Yeah, and in particular, um,

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Speaker 1: because I've also come across that term before, and I

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Speaker 1: get it in like a almost like a cute ce

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Speaker 1: description kind of way. However, at least in my understanding,

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Speaker 1: there's nothing really sexual associated with this phenomenon whatsoever. So

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Speaker 1: it does just kind of like add another element that

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Speaker 1: doesn't actually exist, at least to my understanding. Yeah, it

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Speaker 1: brings in baggage that is not necessary to understand the concept,

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Speaker 1: and so it's probably better not to do that one

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Speaker 1: if you're trying to ask what is this thing and

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Speaker 1: how can we explain it? Right. And then there's one

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Speaker 1: other thing we should probably mention, just by way of

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Speaker 1: saying that we're not really going to get into this today,

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Speaker 1: which is the the concept of a s MR. People

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Speaker 1: have asked us to talk about this on the show before.

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Speaker 1: I guess we've never really gone into it in depth.

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Speaker 1: It seems like this may have some kind of overlap

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Speaker 1: with what we're talking about today, or at least share

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Speaker 1: some boundaries, but we're just gonna bracket that as as

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Speaker 1: a concept that maybe in some ways related, but it's

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Speaker 1: different from what we're talking about. Rights Anecdotally, I can

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Speaker 1: say for myself, I experience freesan often and strongly, but

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Speaker 1: I don't believe I've ever experienced a s MR. So

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Speaker 1: I I can't explain that. But you, I completely agree

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Speaker 1: with you. It's it's it's uh, could be related, but

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Speaker 1: definitely bracketed and separate. Yeah, So, for the rest of

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Speaker 1: this episode, we're gonna be focusing on this feeling of

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Speaker 1: free so on the subject of the psychophysiological response to music,

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Speaker 1: and we're gonna be asking this question of why do

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Speaker 1: certain songs, specifically certain moments in songs elicit such a

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Speaker 1: strong reaction in the body what does it have to

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Speaker 1: do with pleasure and pain and the obscure functioning of

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Speaker 1: the reward pathways in our brains? Who gets it? What

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Speaker 1: causes it? And why is it pleasurable? Uh? And so yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm really glad you brought the subject up, Seth, because

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Speaker 1: I think it's a fascinating puzzle, one that we probably

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Speaker 1: can't conclusively answer, but we can raise findings that that

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Speaker 1: point us off in a lot of interesting directions. I

396
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Speaker 1: think maybe the listeners will have a lot of fun

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Speaker 1: trying to see if they can put this puzzle together

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Speaker 1: themselves as well. And I think with those puzzle pieces,

399
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Speaker 1: it does make the experience of experiencing freezon a bit

400
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Speaker 1: more fun when you can perhaps recognize those patterns and

401
00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:53,320
Speaker 1: the music you're listening to and go, oh, perhaps that's

402
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Speaker 1: the reason why I'm feeling this right now, and get

403
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Speaker 1: kind of a repeatable experiment where you can go, oh,

404
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Speaker 1: I've no is that X, Y or Z are what

405
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Speaker 1: cause it? In my own sensations? And then it is.

406
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Speaker 1: But it's a little self experimentational and it's honestly, I

407
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Speaker 1: find it kind of fun. Yeah. Oh oh, It's one

408
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Speaker 1: of the most dangerous and thrilling of states the state

409
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Speaker 1: of being able to partially understand your own mind. Yes, okay,

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Speaker 1: so looking in the phenomenology of of these music thrills

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Speaker 1: of of freesan. Unfortunately, this is one of those areas

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Speaker 1: where there is a bunch of existing research at this point,

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Speaker 1: but a lot of it is focused on related but

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Speaker 1: slightly different questions, which is just always a mess to

415
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Speaker 1: wade through. So there be there are different studies out

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Speaker 1: there that sort of use different terminology to describe the feelings. Clearly,

417
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Speaker 1: these feelings overlap a lot. Sometimes they include or isolate

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Speaker 1: different components of it. Uh. Some call it chills, some

419
00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:57,840
Speaker 1: call it thrills. Some consider goose bumps a necessary part

420
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Speaker 1: of freesan. Some don't only look at goose bumps and

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00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:05,320
Speaker 1: not these other sensations. So, unfortunately, when we're talking about

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Speaker 1: the research going forward, you're just going to have to

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Speaker 1: accept and keep in mind that what we're talking about

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Speaker 1: here is not a unified phenomenon with a consistent definition

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Speaker 1: across all these studies, but sort of a system of

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Speaker 1: related phenomena with family resemblances that have been approached from

427
00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:23,360
Speaker 1: a bunch of different angles. But it's clear that they're

428
00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:26,080
Speaker 1: all at least somewhat related. They're all part of this

429
00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:30,399
Speaker 1: intense psycho physiological response to music. So what are the

430
00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:34,200
Speaker 1: actual descriptive characteristics of the Freezon response. Well, I was

431
00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:38,159
Speaker 1: watching a twenty nineteen conference presentation by a researcher working

432
00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:40,159
Speaker 1: in the neuroscience of music. I'm going to refer to

433
00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:43,119
Speaker 1: several times throughout this episode. Her name is Psyche Louis,

434
00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:46,680
Speaker 1: and she lays out some of the most common responses,

435
00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:50,240
Speaker 1: breaking down responses to music into categories of the sort

436
00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:54,199
Speaker 1: of abstract versus the visceral or somatic. Now, in the

437
00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:58,320
Speaker 1: abstract responses to music, you've got general strong emotions, you've

438
00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:01,280
Speaker 1: got the idea of feeling trans ported to another place

439
00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:04,480
Speaker 1: or time. You've got the feeling of all. You've got

440
00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:07,640
Speaker 1: losing your sense of time or where you are, or

441
00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:10,680
Speaker 1: the avocation of memories. But then on the other hand,

442
00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:14,000
Speaker 1: you've got these visceral and somatic responses to music. And

443
00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:16,040
Speaker 1: these are the responses in the body, the ones we're

444
00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:20,840
Speaker 1: focused on today, which are chills, goose bumps, lump in

445
00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:25,160
Speaker 1: the throat, heart racing, crying, uh, feeling in the pit

446
00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:29,320
Speaker 1: of the stomach, and generally the sort of pleasurable appraisal

447
00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:32,399
Speaker 1: of these sensations in the body. Seth, what do you

448
00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:34,600
Speaker 1: think about that list of sensations in the body? Does

449
00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:40,840
Speaker 1: that ring true to you? Yeah? And um, since uh,

450
00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:43,360
Speaker 1: looking into this more recently, I've actually been paying more

451
00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:48,560
Speaker 1: attention to what I personally experience. And I did not

452
00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:52,560
Speaker 1: realize that goose bumps were such a part of my

453
00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:56,000
Speaker 1: own personal frees on experience. But while listening to so

454
00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:59,000
Speaker 1: many frees on inducing tracks over the past few days

455
00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:01,840
Speaker 1: and then actually like looking at my body and being like, oh,

456
00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:05,080
Speaker 1: there they are, you know, there are my goose bumps,

457
00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:07,920
Speaker 1: and um, so yeah, I know. I I fully believe

458
00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:10,679
Speaker 1: that to be true. And UM, here's another thing that

459
00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:13,760
Speaker 1: I believe is going to get a bit anecdotal when

460
00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:16,439
Speaker 1: it comes to who gets free song from music. And

461
00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:18,960
Speaker 1: I apologize for how many times I'm gonna say anecdotal,

462
00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:23,320
Speaker 1: but this is a very anecdotal kind of phenomenon. It's

463
00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:26,919
Speaker 1: it's difficult to really hammer it down. And um, depending

464
00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:29,600
Speaker 1: upon the source. I've looked at a few A lot

465
00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:33,280
Speaker 1: of people say about two thirds of people experience free song,

466
00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:35,960
Speaker 1: but I've seen it as low as fifty five and

467
00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:39,760
Speaker 1: as high as eighties six, So that's a pretty broad

468
00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:42,320
Speaker 1: spectrum for how many people they believe to experience this

469
00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:45,840
Speaker 1: as to the reports of the inconsistency and uh in

470
00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:48,040
Speaker 1: the reported prevalence of free song. You go out and

471
00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:51,080
Speaker 1: survey people say, you know, hey, how many of you, um,

472
00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:53,320
Speaker 1: on average have these chills and goose bumps and all

473
00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:55,440
Speaker 1: these things when you listen to music, You're gonna get

474
00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:59,199
Speaker 1: different answers, probably because the question is being asked in

475
00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:02,119
Speaker 1: a different way a or with different criteria. So this

476
00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:04,880
Speaker 1: is one of the problems with the phenomenon not being

477
00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:09,480
Speaker 1: consistently defined or measured. And plus, self diagnosis is always

478
00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:12,080
Speaker 1: a pretty tricky thing in general too, with something so

479
00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:15,520
Speaker 1: kind of ephemeral, And perhaps that is why some studies

480
00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:19,560
Speaker 1: focused on physical reactions like goose bumps. It's like, you

481
00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:22,080
Speaker 1: can't lie if I see your goose bumps, there they

482
00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:25,679
Speaker 1: are there, they aren't. But I think it's clear that

483
00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:28,680
Speaker 1: like more than half of people have frees on. Yeah, yeah,

484
00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:31,560
Speaker 1: that that seems to be the case for sure. And UM,

485
00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:35,800
Speaker 1: I can say this so um again. For the podcast

486
00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:39,239
Speaker 1: that I host, Record Store Society, we have a discord channel. Um.

487
00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:41,040
Speaker 1: If people don't know what Discord is it's more or

488
00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:44,080
Speaker 1: less a message board that that people you know go,

489
00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:47,280
Speaker 1: and it's exclusively for people who listen to this podcast

490
00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:50,320
Speaker 1: that I host, and so therefore everyone on there is

491
00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:52,600
Speaker 1: a big old music nerd, Like that's just kind of

492
00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:55,399
Speaker 1: like you wouldn't go there if you weren't. So the

493
00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:58,120
Speaker 1: other day, for Zon got brought up because I actually

494
00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:01,240
Speaker 1: heard this new song um that I really enjoyed called

495
00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:05,399
Speaker 1: Paranoia Party by Francis Forever, and when I heard it,

496
00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:09,040
Speaker 1: I absolutely got tons of for song from it, like, um,

497
00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:12,320
Speaker 1: there's a real nice build, there's a big change from

498
00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:15,640
Speaker 1: like quiet to loud. There's a lot of patterns kind

499
00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:18,000
Speaker 1: of breaking down and then re emerging, a lot of

500
00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:32,119
Speaker 1: these things that perhaps influenced frees On and um, so

501
00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:35,600
Speaker 1: I posted it on the Discord channel for Record Store Society, going,

502
00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:37,600
Speaker 1: oh man, I get big time frees On for this,

503
00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:39,920
Speaker 1: and a couple of people were like, I had to

504
00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:42,280
Speaker 1: google that word, but now that I know what you're

505
00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:45,040
Speaker 1: talking about, me too, And then someone else go like, oh,

506
00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:46,880
Speaker 1: me too, and someone else would say like, me too,

507
00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:49,520
Speaker 1: and I have to say that this is again, here's

508
00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:54,200
Speaker 1: that word. Anecdotal, entirely anecdotal, but like one of the

509
00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:59,360
Speaker 1: people on this message board for extreme music nerds, everybody

510
00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:03,320
Speaker 1: was feeling. It's like there there wasn't anybody who did

511
00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:06,560
Speaker 1: not know what the feeling and sensation of freesan was.

512
00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:11,080
Speaker 1: So it says something about attention and it's that chicken

513
00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:13,480
Speaker 1: or egg thing again. I believe also at least one

514
00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:15,880
Speaker 1: study I was looking at found that people tend to

515
00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:20,760
Speaker 1: find familiar music more likely to cause freesan. Yeah, I

516
00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:23,160
Speaker 1: I can. I can definitely see that. In particular with

517
00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:26,600
Speaker 1: that song I was just talking about the first time

518
00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:29,520
Speaker 1: I heard it, certain things would make a hit for me.

519
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:32,880
Speaker 1: For example, a sudden change in volume, because that's something

520
00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:34,840
Speaker 1: that is going to hit me no matter why. I

521
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:38,520
Speaker 1: don't need any prior knowledge. Just volume is volume. But

522
00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:40,920
Speaker 1: then the second time I listened to that same song,

523
00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:46,400
Speaker 1: the anticipation that I knew that the volume change was coming,

524
00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:48,560
Speaker 1: that hit me in a different way too, and I

525
00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:51,200
Speaker 1: felt it from the anticipation as well. So yeah, yeah,

526
00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:54,200
Speaker 1: I percent believe that as well, that that the a

527
00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:58,120
Speaker 1: familiar song can cause it for reasons other than just

528
00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:03,920
Speaker 1: purely um, what's there. It's not just about anticipatory chills, yes,

529
00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:08,200
Speaker 1: chill chills and feelings of freesan leading up to the

530
00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:12,680
Speaker 1: moment of sort of the peak that you're you're anticipating, right, yes,

531
00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:15,600
Speaker 1: roller coaster, yes, yeah, But I feel like what we

532
00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:18,040
Speaker 1: were just saying would sort of go along with it

533
00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:20,280
Speaker 1: with the study that I was looking at, Seth, I

534
00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:23,720
Speaker 1: think I actually dug this up because you you found

535
00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:26,800
Speaker 1: an article, a popular level article by one of the

536
00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:30,120
Speaker 1: authors of this study. So this was by Mitchell C.

537
00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:34,800
Speaker 1: Culver and Amani L. Lay published in the journal Psychology

538
00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:38,200
Speaker 1: of Music in two sixteen called Getting Aesthetic Chills from

539
00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:42,920
Speaker 1: Music the Connection between Openness to experience and freesan. So

540
00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:45,719
Speaker 1: this is another entry in the the who gets freesan

541
00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:50,880
Speaker 1: from music? Question? So this study compared people's reports of

542
00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:54,840
Speaker 1: their feelings of freesan and music with physiological responses like

543
00:30:54,920 --> 00:31:00,280
Speaker 1: measuring things like skin conductance responses, and a personality typeogy

544
00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:03,479
Speaker 1: test that was based on the five factor model. Now,

545
00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:05,920
Speaker 1: if you're not familiar that the five factor model is

546
00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:10,239
Speaker 1: a way of sort of classifying people's personalities according to

547
00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:13,560
Speaker 1: five different metrics, so you know, you can sort of

548
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:16,360
Speaker 1: get an idea of many things about a person and

549
00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:19,240
Speaker 1: what kinds of preferences they might have what kinds of

550
00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:22,520
Speaker 1: behaviors they might show if you know their scores on

551
00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:30,000
Speaker 1: five different measures, and these measures would be conscientiousness, agreeableness, neuroticism, extroversion,

552
00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:34,920
Speaker 1: and openness. So listeners who experienced free songs tended on

553
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:38,160
Speaker 1: average to be higher in the trait openness. It's also

554
00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:41,960
Speaker 1: known as openness to experience. I was looking for a good,

555
00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:45,400
Speaker 1: uh succinct definition of openness to experience. This one comes

556
00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:49,320
Speaker 1: from the Encyclopedia of Applied Psychology by McRae in two

557
00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:53,920
Speaker 1: thousand four, and it identifies that the relevant traits of

558
00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:59,520
Speaker 1: openness to experience our tolerance of ambiguity, low dogmatism, need

559
00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:07,920
Speaker 1: for variety, esthetic sensitivity, absorption, unconventionality, intellectual curiosity, and intuition.

560
00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:11,840
Speaker 1: So people who are high in the trade openness tend

561
00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:17,240
Speaker 1: to be more interested in and tend to prefer difference, variety,

562
00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:20,840
Speaker 1: and novelty, whereas people who are lower in trade openness

563
00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:25,040
Speaker 1: tend to prefer what's familiar and traditional. Wow, it's interesting.

564
00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:27,719
Speaker 1: So in a write up feature about this research, one

565
00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:31,720
Speaker 1: of the authors, Mitchell C. Culver, wrote, quote, while previous

566
00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:35,520
Speaker 1: research had connected openness to experience with free san most

567
00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:39,400
Speaker 1: researchers had concluded that listeners were experiencing Freesan as a

568
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:43,040
Speaker 1: result of a deeply emotional reaction they were having to

569
00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:46,360
Speaker 1: the music. So right, the idea would have been, maybe

570
00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:48,600
Speaker 1: people who are higher and openness to experience are just

571
00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:51,760
Speaker 1: more likely to have deep emotional connections with music. But

572
00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:56,000
Speaker 1: uh Culver goes on to say, in contrast, the results

573
00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:59,400
Speaker 1: of our studies show that it's the cognitive components of

574
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:03,680
Speaker 1: openness to experience, such as making mental predictions about how

575
00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:08,280
Speaker 1: the music is going to unfold, or engaging in musical imagery,

576
00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:11,520
Speaker 1: which is a way of processing music that combines listening

577
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:14,880
Speaker 1: with daydreaming, that are associated with frees on to a

578
00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:18,960
Speaker 1: greater degree than the emotional components. In a whole bunch

579
00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:23,720
Speaker 1: of kind of conflicting information that we are receiving and

580
00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:26,800
Speaker 1: kind of like experiencing with this whole thing. That's one

581
00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:29,320
Speaker 1: of the biggest ones to me is that like the

582
00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:36,160
Speaker 1: emotional experience of openness based on the cognitive components of openness,

583
00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:39,280
Speaker 1: you know what I mean? Like that that that's that's

584
00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:42,440
Speaker 1: that's a head scratcher, that's that's it makes sense to

585
00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:45,760
Speaker 1: me in a way. But again, we're talking about the

586
00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:48,960
Speaker 1: emotion plus the intellect in a very strange way. Yeah,

587
00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:52,200
Speaker 1: exactly so, So it's possible that their their findings are incorrect.

588
00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:56,200
Speaker 1: But if Culver and Ela Lately are correct, what they're

589
00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:58,600
Speaker 1: saying is that people who are high in the trade

590
00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:03,520
Speaker 1: openness are apps not getting more Fressan experiences because they're

591
00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:07,480
Speaker 1: more emotional, but because they tend to engage in more

592
00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:11,920
Speaker 1: pattern recognition and prediction behavior when listening to music, that

593
00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:14,000
Speaker 1: they're more likely to be engaging with the piece of

594
00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:16,480
Speaker 1: music in a way that seeks out patterns in the

595
00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:20,400
Speaker 1: structure of the song and tries to predict what's coming next,

596
00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:25,400
Speaker 1: and that that activity is more highly associated with these

597
00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:30,680
Speaker 1: extremely powerful psychophysiological experiences, more so than the than the

598
00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:34,280
Speaker 1: emotional components. And I think that's interesting for sure. Yeah,

599
00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:36,480
Speaker 1: and and and at least in my own experience, I

600
00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:38,719
Speaker 1: can definitely feel that to be true. If I look

601
00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:43,359
Speaker 1: at the songs that give me Fressan patterns and then

602
00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:47,400
Speaker 1: a subversion of a pattern or a almost like doubling

603
00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:50,239
Speaker 1: down on a pattern, like like either way can really

604
00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:53,680
Speaker 1: do it. But but but really am some sort of

605
00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:56,799
Speaker 1: accent upon a pattern whichever path you want to take

606
00:34:56,800 --> 00:34:59,239
Speaker 1: on that this will come back. A major theme in

607
00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:03,000
Speaker 1: the research about the underlying mechanisms of frees on has

608
00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:07,280
Speaker 1: to do with patterns and prediction and UH and anticipation.

609
00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:10,080
Speaker 1: But anyway to move on to other things. So that

610
00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:12,080
Speaker 1: that was that people who are higher in the trade

611
00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:15,600
Speaker 1: openness tend to report more freesans UH. There is another

612
00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:18,319
Speaker 1: There is apparently a social component. I was reading a

613
00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:21,800
Speaker 1: note that a researcher named Alf Gabrielson in two thousand twelve,

614
00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:25,799
Speaker 1: in a work called Strong Experiences with Music, reported that

615
00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:28,600
Speaker 1: people who listen to music together with a friend or

616
00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:32,920
Speaker 1: partner experience more activation of the autonomic nervous system, which

617
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:35,840
Speaker 1: is associated with these these reactions in the body. The

618
00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:39,400
Speaker 1: autonomic nervous system is UH is the part of the

619
00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:43,920
Speaker 1: nervous system that controls things that are that are involuntary

620
00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:46,120
Speaker 1: in your body, such as maintaining of course, you know,

621
00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:49,120
Speaker 1: heart rate and digestion and breathing and all that, but

622
00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:54,640
Speaker 1: also homeostatic responses, responses to changes in temperature, and the

623
00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:57,480
Speaker 1: fight or flight response, which is specifically a subset of

624
00:35:57,520 --> 00:36:00,800
Speaker 1: the autonomic nervous system known as the sympathetic nervous system

625
00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:04,759
Speaker 1: and the sympathetic nervous system appears to often be activated

626
00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:08,960
Speaker 1: in these frees on experiences. So something's going on in

627
00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:13,799
Speaker 1: the body where a a musical freesan has something in

628
00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:17,000
Speaker 1: common with the fight or flight response, which is very

629
00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:25,480
Speaker 1: interesting and we'll get more into that later on than now.

630
00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:28,320
Speaker 1: Another way to approach this question of who gets musical

631
00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:32,000
Speaker 1: frees on um is can we learn anything by identifying

632
00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:35,320
Speaker 1: what people have in common when they don't experience musical

633
00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:40,680
Speaker 1: freeson uh. So, again I mentioned earlier that presentation I

634
00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:44,080
Speaker 1: was watching by the researcher Psyche Louis Uh and she

635
00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:47,080
Speaker 1: was talking about studies that have been done with people

636
00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:50,800
Speaker 1: who have what's called musical and hedonia, and this is

637
00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:54,200
Speaker 1: a condition where people just do not really derive pleasure

638
00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:57,440
Speaker 1: from music. Now, it's important to specify what musical and

639
00:36:57,600 --> 00:37:00,920
Speaker 1: hedonia is not. It's different on what's known as a

640
00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:05,080
Speaker 1: musa or tone deafness. People with musical and hedonia do

641
00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:08,520
Speaker 1: not show major errors in their perception of music. They

642
00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:12,160
Speaker 1: can hear it just fine. And it's different from general

643
00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:15,360
Speaker 1: and hedonia. So people with musical and hedonia can derive

644
00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:19,280
Speaker 1: pleasure from other things. It's not a generalized lack of pleasure.

645
00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:22,680
Speaker 1: It's just a lack of pleasure from music. And one

646
00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:25,799
Speaker 1: thing Louis talks about is research that has found that

647
00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:29,840
Speaker 1: people with musical and hadonia have different patterns of connectivity

648
00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:33,600
Speaker 1: between the auditory regions of the brain and a region

649
00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:36,520
Speaker 1: of the brain known as the nucleus incumbents. Uh So,

650
00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:41,120
Speaker 1: the nucleus incumbents is important in the reward system. It

651
00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:45,400
Speaker 1: is used to drive motivation for the anticipation of rewards,

652
00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:49,920
Speaker 1: including things like food, sex, money, and drugs. Basically, like

653
00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:51,880
Speaker 1: anything you can think of that would be, you know,

654
00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:54,880
Speaker 1: a kind of pleasurable stimulus that would really motivate you

655
00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:58,000
Speaker 1: to want to get more of it. That motivation to

656
00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:01,080
Speaker 1: get more of it is mediated by reward system in

657
00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:04,720
Speaker 1: the brain, including the nucleus accumbans. This might be also

658
00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:08,040
Speaker 1: very unscientific for me to say, but all those things

659
00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:12,520
Speaker 1: also seemed to have um elements of um anticipation and dopamine.

660
00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:15,880
Speaker 1: Oh yes, exactly. So the thrill you get in anticipation

661
00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:19,640
Speaker 1: of one of these things, food, sex, money, drugs, any

662
00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:22,080
Speaker 1: of these these things, the thrill you get in the

663
00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:25,160
Speaker 1: brain while you were in pursuit of that goal is

664
00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:27,840
Speaker 1: very much related. That is the reward system working to

665
00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:31,760
Speaker 1: motivate your behavior. Now, another interesting thing about who gets

666
00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:35,919
Speaker 1: musical freesans. I was reading a about a study by

667
00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:40,960
Speaker 1: the Estonian neuroscientist Yak punk Step who found in research

668
00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:44,399
Speaker 1: in nineteen in the journal Music Perception that at least

669
00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:48,480
Speaker 1: in his study, that women reported experiencing chills from music

670
00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:51,560
Speaker 1: somewhat more more often than men did. Though obviously people

671
00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:54,239
Speaker 1: of all genders get the chills, it found that it

672
00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:57,000
Speaker 1: was a little bit more common in women. And also

673
00:38:57,520 --> 00:39:01,400
Speaker 1: there was an interesting observation from punks up study, which

674
00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:06,400
Speaker 1: was this quote, many mistakenly believe that happiness in music

675
00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:10,480
Speaker 1: is more influential in evoking the response than sadness. A

676
00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:14,680
Speaker 1: series of correlational studies analyzing the subjective experience of chills

677
00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:17,440
Speaker 1: in groups of students listening to a variety of musical

678
00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:21,440
Speaker 1: pieces indicated that chills are related to the perceived emotional

679
00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:25,840
Speaker 1: content of various selections, with much stronger relations to perceived

680
00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:31,880
Speaker 1: sadness than happiness. So, according to poccepts research here, sad

681
00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:35,800
Speaker 1: music is more likely to cause free songs in reality,

682
00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:38,480
Speaker 1: But when people are just sort of asked to speculate,

683
00:39:38,840 --> 00:39:42,319
Speaker 1: they tend to believe that happy music causes it more.

684
00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:46,000
Speaker 1: Isn't that fascinating? And it makes me wonder like, could

685
00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:49,600
Speaker 1: this be related to confusion in reflecting on your own

686
00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:54,000
Speaker 1: experiences of free song, because maybe even though it actually

687
00:39:54,080 --> 00:39:58,400
Speaker 1: happens to you more often with negative valenced esthetic content,

688
00:39:58,480 --> 00:40:02,880
Speaker 1: you know, sad music, sad movies, the experience itself is

689
00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:06,640
Speaker 1: somehow pleasurable, so maybe you mistakenly believe it to be

690
00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:10,319
Speaker 1: caused by more positive valenced content in your memory. At

691
00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:13,160
Speaker 1: least I don't know that that's the causal chain there,

692
00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:16,520
Speaker 1: but that that mistake that people make is interesting. Yeah,

693
00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:19,560
Speaker 1: it definitely could be some sort of confirmation bias, um,

694
00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:23,080
Speaker 1: because even now when you said that, I thought to myself, Okay,

695
00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:25,440
Speaker 1: what are all the examples I'm thinking of? They are

696
00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:29,719
Speaker 1: one happy songs? I I I, And I think part

697
00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:32,880
Speaker 1: of it, at least for me, is there's perhaps something

698
00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:36,880
Speaker 1: triumphant in a lot of the songs that creates the

699
00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:40,799
Speaker 1: freesng feeling in me. Um, maybe a bit bombastic. I'm

700
00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:42,719
Speaker 1: not going to apologize that I get tons of free

701
00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:46,160
Speaker 1: song from limb aserab, but you know, when when when

702
00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:48,279
Speaker 1: do you hear the people sing? Comes on? I? I

703
00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:51,440
Speaker 1: get that feeling all over And there is something that

704
00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:55,120
Speaker 1: is triumphant about that song, but there's a there, there's

705
00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:57,520
Speaker 1: a subtlety to it. There, there's an ambiguity to it

706
00:40:57,560 --> 00:41:00,760
Speaker 1: because the song and its lyrical content and even something

707
00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:03,200
Speaker 1: about the way it sounds implies a kind of risk

708
00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:06,439
Speaker 1: or threat. Does that make sense? It does? And and

709
00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:09,680
Speaker 1: and perhaps that kind of duality is just part of

710
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:13,120
Speaker 1: music in general. Like I was thinking about that Beatles song. Um,

711
00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:15,440
Speaker 1: it's like, I've got to believe it's getting better, It's

712
00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:17,719
Speaker 1: getting better all the time. And then you hear John

713
00:41:17,800 --> 00:41:20,719
Speaker 1: Letton say it couldn't get much worse. Were like, it

714
00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:24,240
Speaker 1: seems like a very positive song unless you pay attention,

715
00:41:24,680 --> 00:41:27,080
Speaker 1: and it's like, oh no, no, this is a very

716
00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:30,640
Speaker 1: sad song that is hopeful. Perhaps and and perhaps that

717
00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:33,760
Speaker 1: that that dichotomy, it's just a part of music in general,

718
00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:36,920
Speaker 1: which which needs to be factored in as well. Huh

719
00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:38,680
Speaker 1: so do you yes for me? Do you hear the

720
00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:41,759
Speaker 1: people sing? It is sort of triumphant sounding, but in

721
00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:44,960
Speaker 1: its lyrical content it is a demonstration of courage in

722
00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:49,880
Speaker 1: the face of near certain death. Right Wow, yeah, fascinating

723
00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:53,160
Speaker 1: fascinating stuff anyway, So ready to move on to maybe

724
00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:56,680
Speaker 1: the next question, which is what triggers free song and music, like,

725
00:41:56,719 --> 00:42:00,560
Speaker 1: what are the specific auditory triggers that bring it about

726
00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:03,040
Speaker 1: most often? Again, this is something where there's probably going

727
00:42:03,080 --> 00:42:06,719
Speaker 1: to be a lot of idiosyncrasy in people's responses, but

728
00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:10,439
Speaker 1: there are certain things that do tend to emerge as

729
00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:13,680
Speaker 1: as like the most common triggers. And here I'm going

730
00:42:13,719 --> 00:42:15,400
Speaker 1: to be referring to I can't remember if I already

731
00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:16,880
Speaker 1: said the name of this paper. I think I didn't,

732
00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:20,239
Speaker 1: But this is a paper that is a a review

733
00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:23,839
Speaker 1: of the of the existing research on frees on as

734
00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:28,840
Speaker 1: often by Luke Harrison and Psyche Louis who already mentioned.

735
00:42:29,120 --> 00:42:32,880
Speaker 1: And it's called Thrills, Chills, freesans and Skin Orgasms Towards

736
00:42:32,880 --> 00:42:37,400
Speaker 1: an Integrative Model of Transcendence Psychophysiological Experiences in Music. And

737
00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:42,040
Speaker 1: this is published in Frontiers in Psychology, and they collect

738
00:42:42,200 --> 00:42:46,000
Speaker 1: some of the existing research on musical freesan inducers. One

739
00:42:46,040 --> 00:42:48,759
Speaker 1: big study that looked into this was slow Boda in

740
00:42:50,080 --> 00:42:54,080
Speaker 1: and this one found that the common types of musical

741
00:42:54,120 --> 00:42:57,399
Speaker 1: phrases that bring people to a state of freesan, we're

742
00:42:57,920 --> 00:43:01,400
Speaker 1: quote chord progressions descending the circle of fifths, to the

743
00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:08,480
Speaker 1: tonic very specific. Uh. Then melodic appoggiaturas. So appoggiaturas are

744
00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:11,440
Speaker 1: when there is a grace note or grace notes added

745
00:43:11,520 --> 00:43:16,200
Speaker 1: to a melody before or between the expected notes. I

746
00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:18,719
Speaker 1: feel like it's kind of hard to explain without singing it.

747
00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:20,440
Speaker 1: I kind of don't want to sing it because that

748
00:43:20,440 --> 00:43:22,920
Speaker 1: would sound pathetic, But I know what you mean. It's

749
00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:27,000
Speaker 1: that quick anticipatory note right before the actual kickoff of

750
00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:30,279
Speaker 1: the chorus or the verse or the bridge or whatever. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

751
00:43:30,560 --> 00:43:33,440
Speaker 1: So if you can imagine a familiar melody, say, imagine

752
00:43:33,480 --> 00:43:37,520
Speaker 1: somebody singing the melody of of London Bridge is falling down,

753
00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:41,160
Speaker 1: but adding in little grace notes in between the familiar

754
00:43:41,239 --> 00:43:43,759
Speaker 1: notes of the melody. Does that make sense? It does

755
00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:46,200
Speaker 1: to me, but does it make sense to our listener?

756
00:43:47,880 --> 00:43:51,520
Speaker 1: But then also the onset of unexpected harmonies, This is

757
00:43:51,560 --> 00:43:53,760
Speaker 1: a huge one for me. A lot of the ones

758
00:43:54,160 --> 00:43:56,759
Speaker 1: that I can think of are when or when harmonies

759
00:43:56,800 --> 00:44:00,600
Speaker 1: come in, when vocal when new vocals are added. Rights,

760
00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:03,600
Speaker 1: yeah uh. And then they also say and melodic or

761
00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:06,839
Speaker 1: harmonic sequences, which seems very unspecific to me. Is I'm

762
00:44:06,880 --> 00:44:09,439
Speaker 1: not sure what to make of that, But they also

763
00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:12,520
Speaker 1: cite another study by Grua at all or Greva at

764
00:44:12,560 --> 00:44:16,239
Speaker 1: all in two thousand seven that found um that the

765
00:44:16,280 --> 00:44:19,719
Speaker 1: onsets of freeson were quote most likely to occur during

766
00:44:19,800 --> 00:44:24,319
Speaker 1: peaks in loudness, moments of modulation, and works in which

767
00:44:24,320 --> 00:44:28,560
Speaker 1: the melody occupied the human vocal register. Uh. And all

768
00:44:28,680 --> 00:44:31,960
Speaker 1: that sounds right to me. A big thing is changes

769
00:44:32,120 --> 00:44:36,080
Speaker 1: in volume, dynamic changes, sudden dynamic leaps where you go

770
00:44:36,200 --> 00:44:39,520
Speaker 1: from UH, where you go from soft to suddenly loud,

771
00:44:40,080 --> 00:44:43,040
Speaker 1: or from loud to suddenly soft. Those have been shown

772
00:44:43,080 --> 00:44:47,360
Speaker 1: to elicit freesan UM. But then also sudden changes in

773
00:44:47,480 --> 00:44:50,040
Speaker 1: say the register when you jump up an octave or

774
00:44:50,080 --> 00:44:53,640
Speaker 1: something like that. And they point out that these uh,

775
00:44:53,760 --> 00:44:57,560
Speaker 1: these triggers tend to point in the direction of freesan

776
00:44:57,719 --> 00:45:01,799
Speaker 1: having something to do with expectance violation. Because almost all

777
00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:04,840
Speaker 1: of the things that have been identified as major triggers

778
00:45:04,840 --> 00:45:07,840
Speaker 1: of free so on are when a song has established

779
00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:11,600
Speaker 1: a pattern and then the pattern suddenly changes in some way.

780
00:45:11,920 --> 00:45:14,040
Speaker 1: That all makes sense. Now, I guess it's time to

781
00:45:14,040 --> 00:45:16,720
Speaker 1: move on to the question of why does this happen?

782
00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:19,120
Speaker 1: This is really the big puzzle, right, So you've got

783
00:45:19,160 --> 00:45:22,240
Speaker 1: something that's just a song it is, you know, music,

784
00:45:22,520 --> 00:45:26,360
Speaker 1: It is vibrating air molecules that are stimulating your ears.

785
00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:30,000
Speaker 1: It's sound that occurs in a certain pattern or or

786
00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:34,520
Speaker 1: or cycle of tones and rhythmic pulses, and somehow that

787
00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:38,160
Speaker 1: means something to you. And it not only means something

788
00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:41,680
Speaker 1: to you, it triggers this powerful response that seems to

789
00:45:41,760 --> 00:45:46,640
Speaker 1: involve uh, the emotions and and pleasure seeking and and

790
00:45:46,719 --> 00:45:49,319
Speaker 1: the full body and and maybe something having to do

791
00:45:49,480 --> 00:45:52,040
Speaker 1: with the autonomic nervous system kind of like a fight

792
00:45:52,120 --> 00:45:55,000
Speaker 1: or flight response would. So it's this big mess that's

793
00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:58,120
Speaker 1: obviously really complicated. So one of the things that I

794
00:45:58,120 --> 00:46:00,759
Speaker 1: thought might be helpful to start by looking at is

795
00:46:00,800 --> 00:46:04,719
Speaker 1: one specific subset of musical free so on, which is

796
00:46:04,760 --> 00:46:07,680
Speaker 1: the experience of goose bumps. So it's actually, I think,

797
00:46:07,719 --> 00:46:11,760
Speaker 1: at root, a fascinating question in itself. Why would human

798
00:46:11,800 --> 00:46:16,880
Speaker 1: beings get goose bumps from esthetic reactions to art and music?

799
00:46:17,440 --> 00:46:21,040
Speaker 1: You know, there's a biological response that it's at least

800
00:46:21,040 --> 00:46:23,800
Speaker 1: at first glance, hard to identify a cause and effect

801
00:46:23,800 --> 00:46:28,960
Speaker 1: relationship for right, Yeah, it doesn't make much sense intellectually. Yeah, Uh,

802
00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:31,279
Speaker 1: so when you get goose bumps, the technical term for

803
00:46:31,280 --> 00:46:34,560
Speaker 1: what's happening here is pilo erection. It's also sometimes known

804
00:46:34,600 --> 00:46:37,960
Speaker 1: as the pilo motor reflex um. And what's going on

805
00:46:38,040 --> 00:46:40,439
Speaker 1: in your body when you get goose bumps is that

806
00:46:40,640 --> 00:46:43,680
Speaker 1: in your skin, at the base of your body hairs,

807
00:46:44,080 --> 00:46:47,520
Speaker 1: there are these little muscles known as erector pilly and

808
00:46:47,560 --> 00:46:51,040
Speaker 1: when these muscles contract, it causes your hairs, which are

809
00:46:51,080 --> 00:46:54,960
Speaker 1: normally relaxed and lying flat, to suddenly stand on end.

810
00:46:55,040 --> 00:46:56,960
Speaker 1: It's sort of like pulls them down tight and they

811
00:46:57,000 --> 00:47:00,359
Speaker 1: stand straight up. And the question would be why does

812
00:47:00,360 --> 00:47:02,560
Speaker 1: the body do this? Well, there are a couple of

813
00:47:02,600 --> 00:47:06,280
Speaker 1: major explanations that are correlated with what normally causes goose

814
00:47:06,320 --> 00:47:11,000
Speaker 1: bumps or similar reactions in animals, especially animals with more

815
00:47:11,080 --> 00:47:15,680
Speaker 1: hair than us. One answer is the cold. When you

816
00:47:15,719 --> 00:47:18,759
Speaker 1: are cold, your body is losing heat through the skin,

817
00:47:19,520 --> 00:47:23,000
Speaker 1: and the pilo erection response is an evolutionary adaptation that

818
00:47:23,120 --> 00:47:26,759
Speaker 1: helps protect the body against heat loss by insulating the skin,

819
00:47:27,280 --> 00:47:30,760
Speaker 1: so your body detects a chill and it protects itself

820
00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:34,080
Speaker 1: by contracting the erector pilly, causing the body hair to

821
00:47:34,160 --> 00:47:37,480
Speaker 1: stand up. This obviously would have been much more useful

822
00:47:37,520 --> 00:47:40,759
Speaker 1: to human ancestors, who had significantly more body hair than

823
00:47:40,800 --> 00:47:43,400
Speaker 1: we do. It does a lot less to help insulate

824
00:47:43,400 --> 00:47:46,960
Speaker 1: our relatively unhaired bodies today, but it seems to be

825
00:47:47,040 --> 00:47:49,920
Speaker 1: a somewhat vestigial trait, like when we get cold, we

826
00:47:49,960 --> 00:47:52,680
Speaker 1: still get the goose bumps, as if we had a

827
00:47:52,680 --> 00:47:54,960
Speaker 1: big coat of fur to help insulate us when when

828
00:47:55,000 --> 00:47:57,239
Speaker 1: our skin did that. But it's not just when we

829
00:47:57,239 --> 00:47:59,960
Speaker 1: get cold. There are also threats of danger. That cause

830
00:48:00,040 --> 00:48:03,640
Speaker 1: is the polo motor response, So the body deploys the

831
00:48:03,719 --> 00:48:07,440
Speaker 1: same reflex, the same pilo erection in response to sudden

832
00:48:07,520 --> 00:48:12,040
Speaker 1: shocks or fear or threats of danger, and the evolutionary

833
00:48:12,080 --> 00:48:15,400
Speaker 1: reasoning is that this provides a survival advantage because pilo

834
00:48:15,440 --> 00:48:19,000
Speaker 1: erection makes the body look bigger. So you've probably seen

835
00:48:19,040 --> 00:48:22,120
Speaker 1: a cat that gets spooked by some kind of possible threat,

836
00:48:22,160 --> 00:48:24,920
Speaker 1: maybe an aggressive dog, or maybe just a cucumber on

837
00:48:24,960 --> 00:48:28,840
Speaker 1: the floor. Whatever, it seems to detect the possibility that

838
00:48:29,000 --> 00:48:32,000
Speaker 1: some other kind of animal is they're threatening it, and

839
00:48:32,080 --> 00:48:36,240
Speaker 1: it's first stands up on end. Now the cat looks thicker, larger,

840
00:48:36,400 --> 00:48:39,719
Speaker 1: it looks more dangerous and able to defend itself, which

841
00:48:39,760 --> 00:48:43,200
Speaker 1: means that this other animal or or pseudo animal is

842
00:48:43,280 --> 00:48:47,000
Speaker 1: less likely to attack and these explanations for the pilo

843
00:48:47,040 --> 00:48:49,720
Speaker 1: motor reflex have been known about for a long time. Actually.

844
00:48:49,760 --> 00:48:53,600
Speaker 1: Charles Darwin wrote about these reactions and goose bumps in

845
00:48:53,640 --> 00:48:55,960
Speaker 1: his book The Expression of the Emotions in Man and

846
00:48:56,000 --> 00:48:59,080
Speaker 1: Animals in eighteen seventy two, where he wrote that quote

847
00:48:59,120 --> 00:49:02,880
Speaker 1: hardly any appressive movement is so general as the involuntary

848
00:49:02,920 --> 00:49:06,719
Speaker 1: erection of the hair's feathers and other dermal appendages. And

849
00:49:06,800 --> 00:49:09,840
Speaker 1: he noted correlates of these in in not just mammals,

850
00:49:09,840 --> 00:49:13,040
Speaker 1: but in mammals and in birds and in reptiles, which

851
00:49:13,040 --> 00:49:16,799
Speaker 1: I thought was interesting. So the evolutionary reasoning connecting goose

852
00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:19,560
Speaker 1: bumps to a survival advantage in the in the case

853
00:49:19,600 --> 00:49:22,680
Speaker 1: of cold or threats makes very solid sense. But why

854
00:49:22,760 --> 00:49:27,760
Speaker 1: would this connect to abstract emotions or to esthetics like music?

855
00:49:28,640 --> 00:49:30,719
Speaker 1: So I was looking around for good explanations of this.

856
00:49:30,840 --> 00:49:33,719
Speaker 1: One thing I came across was an explainer I found

857
00:49:33,719 --> 00:49:37,440
Speaker 1: in Scientific American from two thousand three by a physiologist

858
00:49:37,480 --> 00:49:40,319
Speaker 1: and professor of zoology at the University of Gulf in

859
00:49:40,360 --> 00:49:45,200
Speaker 1: Ontario named George A. Boubinick, who said that basically all

860
00:49:45,320 --> 00:49:48,920
Speaker 1: goose bumps responses involve the release of adrenaline and the

861
00:49:48,960 --> 00:49:51,759
Speaker 1: activation of the autonomic nervous system like we were talking

862
00:49:51,800 --> 00:49:56,040
Speaker 1: about earlier, and uh Bubinic writes quote. Adrenaline, which in

863
00:49:56,120 --> 00:49:59,200
Speaker 1: humans is produced in two small bean like glands that

864
00:49:59,280 --> 00:50:02,520
Speaker 1: sit sit a the kidneys, not only causes the contraction

865
00:50:02,560 --> 00:50:06,319
Speaker 1: of skin muscles, but also influences many other body reactions.

866
00:50:06,800 --> 00:50:10,000
Speaker 1: In humans, adrenaline is often released when we feel cold

867
00:50:10,080 --> 00:50:12,600
Speaker 1: or afraid, but also if you're under stress and feel

868
00:50:12,600 --> 00:50:16,000
Speaker 1: strong emotions such as anger or excitement. Other signs of

869
00:50:16,040 --> 00:50:20,480
Speaker 1: adrenaline release include tears, sweaty palms, trembling hands, and increase

870
00:50:20,520 --> 00:50:23,600
Speaker 1: in blood pressure, erasing heart, or the feeling of butterflies

871
00:50:23,640 --> 00:50:27,040
Speaker 1: in the stomach. Uh So, that's a little frustrating because

872
00:50:27,800 --> 00:50:31,640
Speaker 1: it establishes the possible mechanism in the endocrin or nervous

873
00:50:31,680 --> 00:50:35,480
Speaker 1: system that may be partially correct for explaining the mechanism

874
00:50:35,560 --> 00:50:38,080
Speaker 1: in these cases. But you're still kind of left wondering why,

875
00:50:38,320 --> 00:50:42,840
Speaker 1: right rights And also, well, it's been brought up before

876
00:50:42,960 --> 00:50:47,560
Speaker 1: this connection to fight or flight, but the why has

877
00:50:47,640 --> 00:50:52,920
Speaker 1: not been explained at all. Uh So, I'll try another

878
00:50:52,920 --> 00:50:55,399
Speaker 1: one here. So this one, I'm not sure how good

879
00:50:55,400 --> 00:50:57,600
Speaker 1: of an explanation this is, but at least I found

880
00:50:57,600 --> 00:50:59,960
Speaker 1: it very interesting. So this is what's known as the

881
00:51:00,160 --> 00:51:06,040
Speaker 1: separation call hypothesis. This is another evolutionary explanation for emotional chills.

882
00:51:06,200 --> 00:51:08,560
Speaker 1: And this one goes back to somebody I mentioned earlier

883
00:51:08,560 --> 00:51:12,880
Speaker 1: in the episode, the Estonian neuroscientist Yak punk Sepp, who

884
00:51:13,160 --> 00:51:17,680
Speaker 1: he's known for creating the note the term affective neuroscience,

885
00:51:17,680 --> 00:51:22,279
Speaker 1: the neuroscience of emotions, and uh punk steps hypothesis. I

886
00:51:22,280 --> 00:51:24,440
Speaker 1: found a good summary of it in another paper that

887
00:51:24,600 --> 00:51:28,600
Speaker 1: was by Benetic and Karen Back in Biological Psychology in

888
00:51:28,640 --> 00:51:31,280
Speaker 1: two thousand eleven, so I'm going to read their summary

889
00:51:31,360 --> 00:51:34,799
Speaker 1: of of punk SEPs view. He argues that the separation

890
00:51:34,960 --> 00:51:39,200
Speaker 1: calls of lost young animals used to inform parents about

891
00:51:39,200 --> 00:51:43,040
Speaker 1: the whereabouts of their offspring. These calls might have induced

892
00:51:43,120 --> 00:51:47,319
Speaker 1: internal feelings of coldness and chills, which enhanced the motivation

893
00:51:47,400 --> 00:51:52,680
Speaker 1: for social reunion. A preserved responsivity to certain acoustical features

894
00:51:52,760 --> 00:51:56,600
Speaker 1: e g. Sustained high frequency notes as often presented by

895
00:51:56,600 --> 00:52:01,799
Speaker 1: solo performers, may represent an unconditional component of the chill response.

896
00:52:02,239 --> 00:52:06,600
Speaker 1: This theoretical approach, which could be termed separation call hypothesis,

897
00:52:07,000 --> 00:52:11,560
Speaker 1: thus relates pylo erection to sensations of coldness and sadness.

898
00:52:12,640 --> 00:52:15,920
Speaker 1: Uh So, this is interesting. I'm kind of skeptical that

899
00:52:15,960 --> 00:52:19,160
Speaker 1: this explains everything that's going on, but it does touch

900
00:52:19,200 --> 00:52:22,000
Speaker 1: on multiple features in a way that would make some

901
00:52:22,080 --> 00:52:25,080
Speaker 1: kind of causal sense in an evolutionary perspective. So the

902
00:52:25,120 --> 00:52:28,680
Speaker 1: idea is that, okay, you separate baby rats from their mothers,

903
00:52:28,719 --> 00:52:31,440
Speaker 1: and the baby rats get cold and they squeak at

904
00:52:31,440 --> 00:52:35,920
Speaker 1: a particular frequency that triggers the parent rat to locate

905
00:52:36,000 --> 00:52:39,480
Speaker 1: them quickly, So the process would go. The baby is alone,

906
00:52:39,600 --> 00:52:44,680
Speaker 1: feels temperature decrease, the baby releases a separation call. This

907
00:52:44,800 --> 00:52:48,160
Speaker 1: causes a feeling of separation, a feeling of loss or

908
00:52:48,200 --> 00:52:51,160
Speaker 1: a kind of correlate of sadness in the human context,

909
00:52:51,560 --> 00:52:54,479
Speaker 1: and a feeling of physical coldness, chills, or even goose

910
00:52:54,520 --> 00:52:58,880
Speaker 1: bumps in the mother, motivating rapid reunion and contact with

911
00:52:58,960 --> 00:53:02,240
Speaker 1: the baby rat. So punk Step was arguing that maybe

912
00:53:02,280 --> 00:53:06,240
Speaker 1: these emotional goose bumps we feel in response to music

913
00:53:06,760 --> 00:53:11,520
Speaker 1: have a deep biological root in this mammalian separation call

914
00:53:11,760 --> 00:53:15,040
Speaker 1: and and the response that we would feel in in

915
00:53:15,040 --> 00:53:17,600
Speaker 1: in reaction to hearing it. Perhaps some sort of like

916
00:53:17,840 --> 00:53:20,440
Speaker 1: evolutionary left over kind of a thing. Right, So you

917
00:53:20,560 --> 00:53:23,600
Speaker 1: have certain types of sounds or thought patterns triggering this

918
00:53:23,680 --> 00:53:28,719
Speaker 1: feeling of being moved, which which would simultaneously cause a

919
00:53:28,760 --> 00:53:33,320
Speaker 1: feeling of almost like physical coldness, the chilling feeling goose bumps,

920
00:53:33,360 --> 00:53:36,000
Speaker 1: and a feeling of separation, and a motivation to re

921
00:53:36,200 --> 00:53:40,520
Speaker 1: establish social contact, which in itself would be a a

922
00:53:40,560 --> 00:53:43,920
Speaker 1: sort of a reward motivation where you've got a goal

923
00:53:44,040 --> 00:53:47,640
Speaker 1: now and you're like, I need to get this. I mean, um,

924
00:53:47,680 --> 00:53:52,040
Speaker 1: if true, that's absolutely amazing everything that could come from

925
00:53:52,040 --> 00:53:56,320
Speaker 1: a simple like evolutionary left over instinct. You know, I

926
00:53:56,360 --> 00:53:59,759
Speaker 1: think about the entire music industry coming from just this

927
00:53:59,840 --> 00:54:02,400
Speaker 1: left over a response that has kind of like almost

928
00:54:02,480 --> 00:54:05,560
Speaker 1: um almost pointed usn't the wrong direction, but we got

929
00:54:05,640 --> 00:54:08,000
Speaker 1: so much pleasure out of it anyway. Yeah, And I

930
00:54:08,040 --> 00:54:11,080
Speaker 1: think this may have something to it, and I've read

931
00:54:11,120 --> 00:54:13,399
Speaker 1: that there were some subsequent studies that kind of lent

932
00:54:13,520 --> 00:54:16,440
Speaker 1: support to at least in some cases. But it also

933
00:54:16,480 --> 00:54:19,080
Speaker 1: seems hard for me to imagine that this is the

934
00:54:19,200 --> 00:54:23,640
Speaker 1: direct route of all emotional chills. Uh. I mean, maybe

935
00:54:24,000 --> 00:54:27,080
Speaker 1: maybe this kind of causation is wrapped up in there somewhere,

936
00:54:27,160 --> 00:54:30,400
Speaker 1: but I'm still thinking about other ideas. So one of

937
00:54:30,440 --> 00:54:32,839
Speaker 1: the other ideas comes back to something that we we've

938
00:54:33,200 --> 00:54:38,279
Speaker 1: mentioned a few times now, which is about patterns and predictions. Now,

939
00:54:38,320 --> 00:54:42,080
Speaker 1: earlier I mentioned this conference presentation I watched by Psyche Louis,

940
00:54:42,520 --> 00:54:46,360
Speaker 1: the musical neuroscience researcher. It was at the Brain Mind

941
00:54:46,400 --> 00:54:49,520
Speaker 1: Summit and in might t in twenty nineteen and uh

942
00:54:49,560 --> 00:54:52,480
Speaker 1: and she talks about this hypothesis and in her presentation,

943
00:54:52,600 --> 00:54:55,080
Speaker 1: so she says that a lot of our response to

944
00:54:55,200 --> 00:54:59,840
Speaker 1: music has to do with fulfillments and violations of expectation.

945
00:55:00,760 --> 00:55:03,640
Speaker 1: So you think about what's your what's your actual experience

946
00:55:03,719 --> 00:55:06,480
Speaker 1: of listening to music, What is your brain doing when

947
00:55:06,520 --> 00:55:09,560
Speaker 1: you're paying attention to the music you're listening to. I

948
00:55:09,840 --> 00:55:14,920
Speaker 1: think it's that music establishes patterns. You know, phrases are repeated,

949
00:55:15,080 --> 00:55:20,040
Speaker 1: chord progressions, cycle, and often symmetrical ways. Popular music, of course,

950
00:55:20,080 --> 00:55:23,520
Speaker 1: has the very common verse chorus verse structure. Uh. And

951
00:55:24,160 --> 00:55:26,160
Speaker 1: though there are other types of music, like jazz and

952
00:55:26,200 --> 00:55:30,319
Speaker 1: classical music that are less repetitious and have less to

953
00:55:30,320 --> 00:55:33,760
Speaker 1: do with established patterns, they still do establish some patterns.

954
00:55:34,000 --> 00:55:37,560
Speaker 1: You can feel out the grammar of a classical symphony

955
00:55:37,719 --> 00:55:41,239
Speaker 1: or or a jazz improvisation, even though they might be

956
00:55:41,520 --> 00:55:45,680
Speaker 1: less repetitive than some familiar types of pop and rock music, right,

957
00:55:45,719 --> 00:55:47,960
Speaker 1: Like maybe there's just a theme that repeats, or perhaps

958
00:55:48,120 --> 00:55:51,560
Speaker 1: it just being played in the same key. You go, Oh,

959
00:55:51,600 --> 00:55:53,400
Speaker 1: I can kind of predict where this is going to

960
00:55:53,520 --> 00:55:56,880
Speaker 1: go based simply on like instinctual knowledge of like you know,

961
00:55:57,040 --> 00:56:02,200
Speaker 1: different chord progressions and different different um scales, that kind

962
00:56:02,200 --> 00:56:04,120
Speaker 1: of thing. So, yeah, a piece of music has a

963
00:56:04,200 --> 00:56:07,640
Speaker 1: kind of implied grammar or syntax as kind of rules

964
00:56:07,680 --> 00:56:09,759
Speaker 1: that you can learn, and then you use that to

965
00:56:09,960 --> 00:56:12,920
Speaker 1: predict how it's going to develop from the present moment.

966
00:56:13,440 --> 00:56:16,520
Speaker 1: And so she talks about how this feeling of being

967
00:56:16,520 --> 00:56:19,920
Speaker 1: able to predict what's coming next usually is something that

968
00:56:19,960 --> 00:56:22,720
Speaker 1: we find rewarding in the brain, like in the actual

969
00:56:22,880 --> 00:56:26,960
Speaker 1: reward system. Uh, the ability to say, hey, I think

970
00:56:26,960 --> 00:56:29,640
Speaker 1: I know what's going to happen next, and then anticipating

971
00:56:29,680 --> 00:56:32,280
Speaker 1: and then trying to see if your prediction is correct.

972
00:56:32,760 --> 00:56:36,360
Speaker 1: That is a reward motivation process in that part of

973
00:56:36,360 --> 00:56:38,800
Speaker 1: the brain. And this actually comes back to something I

974
00:56:38,880 --> 00:56:41,760
Speaker 1: think we already mentioned a little bit earlier in the episode,

975
00:56:41,920 --> 00:56:46,520
Speaker 1: but the research finding um that people who get chills

976
00:56:46,560 --> 00:56:49,200
Speaker 1: from music versus people who don't get chills from music.

977
00:56:49,280 --> 00:56:53,200
Speaker 1: There are differences in the amount of fiber connecting different

978
00:56:53,200 --> 00:56:55,280
Speaker 1: parts of the brain. In this case, it's the amount

979
00:56:55,280 --> 00:56:59,120
Speaker 1: of white matter connecting regions of the auditory system where

980
00:56:59,160 --> 00:57:03,280
Speaker 1: you would be processed incoming sounds um in the temporal lobe,

981
00:57:03,400 --> 00:57:06,399
Speaker 1: two regions of the frontal lobe that Luis says are

982
00:57:06,440 --> 00:57:10,920
Speaker 1: important for emotion and reward again, specifically the nucleus incumbents

983
00:57:10,920 --> 00:57:15,239
Speaker 1: and the medial prefrontal cortex. And so this comes back

984
00:57:15,280 --> 00:57:19,440
Speaker 1: to the dopaminergic reward system. Dopamine is a neurotransmitter that

985
00:57:19,480 --> 00:57:22,280
Speaker 1: I think is sometimes a bit mischaracterized as being synonymous

986
00:57:22,280 --> 00:57:25,000
Speaker 1: with the feeling of pleasure, which is slightly off because

987
00:57:25,400 --> 00:57:29,640
Speaker 1: the dopaminergic reward system is not just responsible for feeling

988
00:57:29,680 --> 00:57:33,280
Speaker 1: good after getting what you want, but for managing the

989
00:57:33,320 --> 00:57:37,720
Speaker 1: salience of incentives, managing your awareness of things in your

990
00:57:37,880 --> 00:57:42,200
Speaker 1: environment that you might want, and your motivation to get them. So,

991
00:57:42,320 --> 00:57:46,800
Speaker 1: dopamine increases in the brain in anticipation of receiving a reward,

992
00:57:47,160 --> 00:57:49,720
Speaker 1: and it plays a role in motivating you to repeat

993
00:57:49,760 --> 00:57:51,920
Speaker 1: a behavior that caused you to get a reward in

994
00:57:51,920 --> 00:57:55,520
Speaker 1: the past. So in our ancestral environment. These rewards would

995
00:57:55,560 --> 00:58:00,440
Speaker 1: be things that provided a survival reproduction advantage, so food, water,

996
00:58:00,720 --> 00:58:04,360
Speaker 1: sexual partners, but also things like parental care. But our

997
00:58:04,360 --> 00:58:07,400
Speaker 1: reward systems can also become motivated by rewards that are

998
00:58:07,440 --> 00:58:11,400
Speaker 1: at a sort of abstract remove, like money, or perhaps

999
00:58:11,440 --> 00:58:15,640
Speaker 1: things like enjoyable art and music, or even by substances

1000
00:58:15,720 --> 00:58:19,560
Speaker 1: that stimulate the reward pathways chemically, like opiates or cocaine.

1001
00:58:20,520 --> 00:58:23,360
Speaker 1: But from some of the neuroscience research, it looks like

1002
00:58:23,920 --> 00:58:28,440
Speaker 1: when we have these intensely pleasurable psycho physiological responses to music,

1003
00:58:28,840 --> 00:58:31,520
Speaker 1: something is going on with the reward pathway that has

1004
00:58:31,560 --> 00:58:36,160
Speaker 1: to do with predictions that pleasure in music somehow has

1005
00:58:36,240 --> 00:58:40,120
Speaker 1: something to do with the listener recognizing patterns and the

1006
00:58:40,240 --> 00:58:43,840
Speaker 1: reward seeking mechanisms in the brain being motivated to detect

1007
00:58:43,880 --> 00:58:47,360
Speaker 1: and predict those patterns. This makes me want to speculate,

1008
00:58:47,600 --> 00:58:50,520
Speaker 1: but I will not. I don't know, go right ahead.

1009
00:58:51,440 --> 00:58:55,920
Speaker 1: My My speculation is this, UM, I remember basically reaching

1010
00:58:55,920 --> 00:59:00,240
Speaker 1: a certain age where um, you think to yourself, uh, gosh,

1011
00:59:00,280 --> 00:59:03,840
Speaker 1: I hate school, schools annoying? Gosh, school what what a drag?

1012
00:59:04,320 --> 00:59:07,040
Speaker 1: And then someone wiser will tell you, you know, school

1013
00:59:07,080 --> 00:59:11,120
Speaker 1: isn't actually about the lessons. It's not about the homework.

1014
00:59:11,640 --> 00:59:14,720
Speaker 1: School is about learning how to learn. It's about learning

1015
00:59:14,720 --> 00:59:17,560
Speaker 1: how it to be intellectually curious enough that in the future,

1016
00:59:18,000 --> 00:59:20,840
Speaker 1: when you do want to know something, you can teach

1017
00:59:20,880 --> 00:59:24,240
Speaker 1: yourself how to know it because you've learned how to learn.

1018
00:59:25,040 --> 00:59:29,000
Speaker 1: And in my mind, I'm thinking about how music is

1019
00:59:29,200 --> 00:59:34,760
Speaker 1: kind of instilling this desire for pattern recognition, which personally

1020
00:59:34,760 --> 00:59:37,560
Speaker 1: I do think benefits life, and I do think benefits

1021
00:59:37,680 --> 00:59:42,840
Speaker 1: um oh, problem solving and benefits you know, making a

1022
00:59:42,840 --> 00:59:45,720
Speaker 1: grocery list, everything, You know what I mean, Like, patterns

1023
00:59:45,720 --> 00:59:50,120
Speaker 1: are extremely useful in our society. So it's it's um

1024
00:59:50,120 --> 00:59:53,880
Speaker 1: perhaps it is an evolutionary leftover that makes us enjoy music,

1025
00:59:54,240 --> 00:59:57,600
Speaker 1: but perhaps it has stayed with us because it has

1026
00:59:57,640 --> 01:00:00,600
Speaker 1: proven to be useful in the regard of like it's

1027
01:00:00,640 --> 01:00:03,520
Speaker 1: teaching us, it's improving us, it's making our brains a

1028
01:00:03,600 --> 01:00:05,920
Speaker 1: little a little more fits because it's almost like we're

1029
01:00:05,920 --> 01:00:08,760
Speaker 1: having a little training session by listening to music, by

1030
01:00:08,840 --> 01:00:12,160
Speaker 1: enjoying arts, by enjoying culture, and that makes everything else

1031
01:00:12,160 --> 01:00:13,960
Speaker 1: in our lives a little bit better and a little

1032
01:00:14,000 --> 01:00:17,960
Speaker 1: bit easier. So, like music is teaching us how to

1033
01:00:18,600 --> 01:00:24,760
Speaker 1: learn in a way pure speculation. Well, I definitely think

1034
01:00:24,800 --> 01:00:27,360
Speaker 1: there could be something to that, But I would also

1035
01:00:27,400 --> 01:00:30,640
Speaker 1: come back at it from the other angle, because it's

1036
01:00:30,680 --> 01:00:34,360
Speaker 1: clearly not as simple as music sets up a pattern

1037
01:00:34,560 --> 01:00:38,000
Speaker 1: that you can predict, and then when you correctly predict

1038
01:00:38,040 --> 01:00:42,760
Speaker 1: the pattern, it's pleasurable because if if music is too predictable,

1039
01:00:43,000 --> 01:00:47,640
Speaker 1: it becomes boring. Right, And this goes sort of it,

1040
01:00:47,760 --> 01:00:49,760
Speaker 1: at least on the face of it, seemed to go

1041
01:00:49,800 --> 01:00:52,520
Speaker 1: against something we were talking about earlier, which is that

1042
01:00:52,600 --> 01:00:56,040
Speaker 1: a lot of these peak experiences free sun come precisely

1043
01:00:56,120 --> 01:01:00,200
Speaker 1: when patterns are broken or violated. It's not when it's

1044
01:01:00,240 --> 01:01:02,800
Speaker 1: the most predictable and you're the easiest to get the

1045
01:01:02,840 --> 01:01:07,520
Speaker 1: pattern recognition right. It's when something changes unexpectedly that you

1046
01:01:07,600 --> 01:01:10,520
Speaker 1: feel the tingles all over. But at least for me,

1047
01:01:10,640 --> 01:01:14,360
Speaker 1: that's the learning aspect of it. Um to to throw

1048
01:01:14,400 --> 01:01:17,840
Speaker 1: something in that, perhaps Robert would say, if Robert were here, Um,

1049
01:01:17,880 --> 01:01:20,640
Speaker 1: there's a thing with meditation where, um, you know, if

1050
01:01:20,680 --> 01:01:22,480
Speaker 1: you're trying to clear your mind and you're trying not

1051
01:01:22,520 --> 01:01:26,120
Speaker 1: to think about anything and then you accidentally think about

1052
01:01:26,120 --> 01:01:29,800
Speaker 1: a slice of strawberry cheesecake, you know that's bad. In

1053
01:01:29,840 --> 01:01:32,960
Speaker 1: the regard that you're trying to think of nothing. However,

1054
01:01:33,600 --> 01:01:37,320
Speaker 1: the active energy you take during most kinds of meditation

1055
01:01:37,400 --> 01:01:40,280
Speaker 1: to clear your mind again, to go okay, get out

1056
01:01:40,280 --> 01:01:42,800
Speaker 1: of my mind, strawberry cheesecake. I'm trying to think about nothing.

1057
01:01:43,480 --> 01:01:46,880
Speaker 1: That is akin to like doing a rep. It's like

1058
01:01:46,920 --> 01:01:49,760
Speaker 1: a kin to like doing something active to make you better.

1059
01:01:50,280 --> 01:01:56,160
Speaker 1: So perhaps the subversion of patterns that we recognize our

1060
01:01:56,240 --> 01:01:59,240
Speaker 1: brain does hit the little food pellet switch and go,

1061
01:01:59,240 --> 01:02:02,480
Speaker 1: good job, you noticed, you know, aren't you a smart

1062
01:02:02,520 --> 01:02:05,440
Speaker 1: little person? Keep up, keep it up. You know you're

1063
01:02:05,520 --> 01:02:09,600
Speaker 1: learning here, You're you're you're being um, You're being someone

1064
01:02:09,680 --> 01:02:14,360
Speaker 1: trained to understand patterns when they change, and perhaps to

1065
01:02:14,400 --> 01:02:17,360
Speaker 1: pay extra attention to when they do change, because that's

1066
01:02:17,520 --> 01:02:19,760
Speaker 1: perhaps when life is at its most dangerous, is when

1067
01:02:19,760 --> 01:02:22,640
Speaker 1: the when the patterns are subverted, not when the patterns

1068
01:02:22,640 --> 01:02:25,080
Speaker 1: are the same. Well, that actually ties into something else

1069
01:02:25,120 --> 01:02:27,240
Speaker 1: I came across. So I mentioned earlier that I watched

1070
01:02:27,280 --> 01:02:31,040
Speaker 1: that video that was an interview with a music neuroscientists

1071
01:02:31,080 --> 01:02:35,360
Speaker 1: named Matt Sachs, and uh Sachs had speculated, now this

1072
01:02:35,400 --> 01:02:39,040
Speaker 1: is actually going more back back in a previous uh

1073
01:02:39,200 --> 01:02:42,360
Speaker 1: possible explanation that we were talking about for the neurobiological

1074
01:02:42,400 --> 01:02:45,920
Speaker 1: mechanisms of pleasure and freees on. But when when you

1075
01:02:45,960 --> 01:02:48,720
Speaker 1: go to the idea of the arousal of the autonomic

1076
01:02:48,760 --> 01:02:51,760
Speaker 1: nervous system, you know, the fight or flight response, uh,

1077
01:02:51,800 --> 01:02:54,480
Speaker 1: and getting goose bumps as a result of a of

1078
01:02:54,600 --> 01:02:58,080
Speaker 1: cold or being under threat. Sax is talking about the

1079
01:02:58,120 --> 01:03:01,520
Speaker 1: pleasurable response to music in those terms. Maybe getting goose

1080
01:03:01,520 --> 01:03:04,760
Speaker 1: bumps is like a threat, and he speculates, I'm not

1081
01:03:04,800 --> 01:03:06,960
Speaker 1: sure how much research there is to back this up,

1082
01:03:06,960 --> 01:03:10,720
Speaker 1: but he speculates and maybe sometimes high pitched notes or

1083
01:03:10,800 --> 01:03:15,440
Speaker 1: sudden dynamic changes in music are actually initially reacted to

1084
01:03:15,520 --> 01:03:18,760
Speaker 1: by the body as a kind of threat. And it's

1085
01:03:18,800 --> 01:03:20,880
Speaker 1: it's like, you know, when you detect a loud sound,

1086
01:03:21,000 --> 01:03:23,439
Speaker 1: what does that usually mean? It usually means like there's

1087
01:03:23,480 --> 01:03:26,400
Speaker 1: something you need to pay attention to because it's possibly dangerous.

1088
01:03:26,840 --> 01:03:31,160
Speaker 1: But then he speculates that after the startling sounds such

1089
01:03:31,200 --> 01:03:33,200
Speaker 1: as the dynamic change in the music or the sudden

1090
01:03:33,280 --> 01:03:37,280
Speaker 1: high voice or something is rationalized by the prefrontal cortex

1091
01:03:37,360 --> 01:03:41,360
Speaker 1: and judged actually safe, that's when the sense of pleasure comes.

1092
01:03:41,400 --> 01:03:44,360
Speaker 1: It's in the realization that your your brain has sort

1093
01:03:44,400 --> 01:03:47,400
Speaker 1: of been startled into a semi fight or flight response

1094
01:03:47,440 --> 01:03:50,080
Speaker 1: by something in the sound, But actually it's just a

1095
01:03:50,080 --> 01:03:52,920
Speaker 1: piece of music, And it's like realizing that the threat

1096
01:03:52,960 --> 01:03:55,680
Speaker 1: in a horror movie is not actually dangerous. I was

1097
01:03:55,720 --> 01:03:57,800
Speaker 1: just thinking the same thing, like like a horror movie,

1098
01:03:57,880 --> 01:04:02,360
Speaker 1: like a roller coaster. It's um a safe exploration of

1099
01:04:02,440 --> 01:04:05,480
Speaker 1: fear and anticipation is definitely a big part of that.

1100
01:04:05,520 --> 01:04:07,760
Speaker 1: I mean, think about any jump scare in a horror film.

1101
01:04:07,800 --> 01:04:16,920
Speaker 1: You know, yeah, interesting, thank thank But anyway, to come

1102
01:04:16,960 --> 01:04:19,720
Speaker 1: back to Harrison and Louis. In their summary of of

1103
01:04:19,720 --> 01:04:23,320
Speaker 1: a study from two thousand one by Blood and store Uh,

1104
01:04:23,360 --> 01:04:27,240
Speaker 1: they write that these researchers quote showed with pet scanning

1105
01:04:27,240 --> 01:04:30,880
Speaker 1: of people under musical free san that patterns may reflect

1106
01:04:30,960 --> 01:04:35,440
Speaker 1: a craving reflex similar to that surrounding responses for food, sex,

1107
01:04:35,480 --> 01:04:38,680
Speaker 1: and drugs of abuse. It's possible, then, that the reason

1108
01:04:38,800 --> 01:04:42,440
Speaker 1: we develop such affinity for free san inducing music is

1109
01:04:42,480 --> 01:04:46,720
Speaker 1: that once we experience musical free san, we develop a

1110
01:04:46,800 --> 01:04:52,720
Speaker 1: dopaminergic anticipation for its return, effectively becoming slightly addicted to

1111
01:04:52,800 --> 01:04:55,960
Speaker 1: the musical stimulus. I mean, that's an analogy I've made

1112
01:04:56,040 --> 01:04:59,680
Speaker 1: before when it comes to um seeking out new music

1113
01:05:00,080 --> 01:05:02,440
Speaker 1: that it is similar to a drug and being a

1114
01:05:02,480 --> 01:05:05,479
Speaker 1: person who is very much a teetotaler in every way,

1115
01:05:07,000 --> 01:05:09,440
Speaker 1: I do not want to diminish people's actual addictions to

1116
01:05:09,560 --> 01:05:14,280
Speaker 1: real drugs, but following the same patterns. Uh yeah, I'm

1117
01:05:14,320 --> 01:05:16,200
Speaker 1: just like, Oh, I I think I can find a

1118
01:05:16,360 --> 01:05:18,320
Speaker 1: another album, Like I haven't heard a new album that

1119
01:05:18,480 --> 01:05:20,520
Speaker 1: really got me excited lately. I gotta I gotta go

1120
01:05:20,520 --> 01:05:22,040
Speaker 1: to go down to the record store. I need to

1121
01:05:22,040 --> 01:05:24,720
Speaker 1: go find something else. I gotta go dig through some crates.

1122
01:05:24,760 --> 01:05:27,640
Speaker 1: And it's just sort of like that feeling of there's

1123
01:05:27,680 --> 01:05:30,640
Speaker 1: something out there, there's something out there that's really good,

1124
01:05:30,640 --> 01:05:32,800
Speaker 1: and you haven't heard it yet, so you need to

1125
01:05:32,880 --> 01:05:34,880
Speaker 1: go get it. You need to go find it, you

1126
01:05:34,920 --> 01:05:37,800
Speaker 1: need to talk to people and uh and those are

1127
01:05:37,800 --> 01:05:39,720
Speaker 1: the things you can do on record store society, find

1128
01:05:39,720 --> 01:05:44,840
Speaker 1: it wherever you find podcasts. Do do you when you're

1129
01:05:44,840 --> 01:05:47,600
Speaker 1: seeking out new music? Do you actually have like the

1130
01:05:47,600 --> 01:05:51,080
Speaker 1: these direct pleasurable experiences in mind is like sort of

1131
01:05:51,120 --> 01:05:54,840
Speaker 1: the thing you're questing after, Because while I do love

1132
01:05:54,880 --> 01:05:57,800
Speaker 1: them in music, I remember when I was more obsessed

1133
01:05:57,880 --> 01:06:01,760
Speaker 1: with like finding new music, I had a probably a

1134
01:06:01,760 --> 01:06:04,800
Speaker 1: stupider idea in my head, which was like, once I

1135
01:06:04,840 --> 01:06:08,920
Speaker 1: hear this album, then finally I'll understand music. Do you

1136
01:06:08,960 --> 01:06:11,640
Speaker 1: know what I mean? I do? I definitely do. I

1137
01:06:11,640 --> 01:06:15,360
Speaker 1: I felt that also, UM where, in particular, if there

1138
01:06:15,360 --> 01:06:19,120
Speaker 1: were albums that everyone said, we're truly, truly great, and

1139
01:06:19,200 --> 01:06:21,520
Speaker 1: I would go, oh, man, I'm gonna I'm gonna find

1140
01:06:21,560 --> 01:06:24,480
Speaker 1: this album. Let's say it's The Velvet Underground Nico, you know,

1141
01:06:24,520 --> 01:06:26,800
Speaker 1: the famous one with the Andy Warhol Binna on the cover.

1142
01:06:27,840 --> 01:06:30,520
Speaker 1: UM where I'm like, this is that album that everyone

1143
01:06:30,600 --> 01:06:33,200
Speaker 1: keeps talking about. One day, I'm gonna find it. I'm

1144
01:06:33,200 --> 01:06:36,000
Speaker 1: gonna listen to it, and then I'll know what everyone's

1145
01:06:36,000 --> 01:06:38,480
Speaker 1: talking about, and I will have achieved something. It will

1146
01:06:38,560 --> 01:06:42,160
Speaker 1: be like a totem somehow that I have found and

1147
01:06:42,200 --> 01:06:44,520
Speaker 1: listened to this album. Obviously, this is way before any

1148
01:06:44,600 --> 01:06:46,680
Speaker 1: kind of streaming media, so it was much more difficult

1149
01:06:46,960 --> 01:06:49,000
Speaker 1: to track down and purchase an album when I was

1150
01:06:49,040 --> 01:06:52,440
Speaker 1: a kid. Um. But but in that same regard, I

1151
01:06:52,520 --> 01:06:56,360
Speaker 1: would say, to answer your question about seeking it out

1152
01:06:56,600 --> 01:06:59,320
Speaker 1: and does that provide some sort of pleasure? I do

1153
01:06:59,520 --> 01:07:03,240
Speaker 1: think that for me personally, the things I love most

1154
01:07:03,440 --> 01:07:11,160
Speaker 1: in music are um progression change, experimentation, people trying new things.

1155
01:07:11,240 --> 01:07:15,000
Speaker 1: I really love really experimental, really you know, for lack

1156
01:07:15,040 --> 01:07:17,720
Speaker 1: of a better word, odd music. I really enjoy that.

1157
01:07:18,200 --> 01:07:20,280
Speaker 1: And not to say that I don't also enjoy you know,

1158
01:07:20,400 --> 01:07:23,560
Speaker 1: some some beatles as well. But um, but that being

1159
01:07:23,600 --> 01:07:26,919
Speaker 1: the case, I would not be surprised if deep down,

1160
01:07:26,960 --> 01:07:34,440
Speaker 1: subconsciously me perpetually seeking stranger music, seeking the experimental and

1161
01:07:34,520 --> 01:07:39,120
Speaker 1: the you know, the the the new, for lack of

1162
01:07:39,120 --> 01:07:43,560
Speaker 1: a better word, is perhaps trying to find that thrill again,

1163
01:07:43,800 --> 01:07:47,919
Speaker 1: find that that that roller coaster, find that, um that

1164
01:07:48,680 --> 01:07:51,240
Speaker 1: that that that that jumps scared from that that scary movie.

1165
01:07:51,280 --> 01:07:54,240
Speaker 1: You know. Oh well, this is interesting because this connects

1166
01:07:54,240 --> 01:07:56,280
Speaker 1: to something else I was reading. So I was reading

1167
01:07:56,280 --> 01:08:00,480
Speaker 1: an interview with a researcher named dr oy In a

1168
01:08:00,920 --> 01:08:04,280
Speaker 1: vessel of z Ki, who studies the science of the

1169
01:08:04,360 --> 01:08:06,680
Speaker 1: human response to art and aesthetics. That a place called

1170
01:08:06,680 --> 01:08:10,680
Speaker 1: the Max Plank Institute for Empirical Aesthetics, and he'd done

1171
01:08:10,720 --> 01:08:14,680
Speaker 1: some work on essentially people's frees on reactions not just

1172
01:08:14,760 --> 01:08:18,280
Speaker 1: to music, but to other genres of arts, such as poetry,

1173
01:08:18,400 --> 01:08:21,320
Speaker 1: because also people can get frees on from poetry, and

1174
01:08:21,360 --> 01:08:22,920
Speaker 1: so he did a study on that and one thing

1175
01:08:22,960 --> 01:08:24,920
Speaker 1: he noted this was in the context of poetry, but

1176
01:08:24,960 --> 01:08:27,599
Speaker 1: I think it's probably also true of music is that

1177
01:08:27,640 --> 01:08:32,400
Speaker 1: he found that experienced people need more complexity in order

1178
01:08:32,479 --> 01:08:35,840
Speaker 1: to be affected. So basically, the more experience you have

1179
01:08:36,080 --> 01:08:39,679
Speaker 1: with a genre of art, usually the weirder you need

1180
01:08:39,680 --> 01:08:42,960
Speaker 1: it to be. That makes sense. No I've made this

1181
01:08:43,000 --> 01:08:46,559
Speaker 1: analogy myself where people have asked me, oh, why are

1182
01:08:46,600 --> 01:08:49,599
Speaker 1: you listening to that noise? Like literally, you know noise.

1183
01:08:49,600 --> 01:08:52,320
Speaker 1: There's a lot of noise albums that I very much enjoy,

1184
01:08:52,400 --> 01:08:55,160
Speaker 1: and I'm like, I think about it like a foodie

1185
01:08:55,439 --> 01:08:57,680
Speaker 1: where there's a person out there who, you know, they

1186
01:08:57,720 --> 01:09:00,439
Speaker 1: love pasta, and they ate their pasta and it's oh good.

1187
01:09:00,880 --> 01:09:03,680
Speaker 1: But at a certain point, after they've really really focused

1188
01:09:03,680 --> 01:09:07,240
Speaker 1: and studied and had so much pasta's coming out their ears,

1189
01:09:07,560 --> 01:09:10,120
Speaker 1: they're like, you know what, I think, like, I need

1190
01:09:10,120 --> 01:09:13,479
Speaker 1: to go to this like gastro Microbiology center where they

1191
01:09:13,520 --> 01:09:16,719
Speaker 1: give me like a pasta foam and like a snifter

1192
01:09:16,920 --> 01:09:21,519
Speaker 1: of basil liquefied that I inject in my arm. Like

1193
01:09:21,520 --> 01:09:24,160
Speaker 1: like I I do think that all art does eventually

1194
01:09:24,200 --> 01:09:26,000
Speaker 1: become stranger and stranger, and I think that goes for

1195
01:09:26,040 --> 01:09:28,840
Speaker 1: everything I think that goes for shoes, sneaker heads will

1196
01:09:28,840 --> 01:09:30,880
Speaker 1: probably do the same thing, same thing with them people

1197
01:09:30,880 --> 01:09:35,000
Speaker 1: who are really into cars, people who are really into um,

1198
01:09:35,040 --> 01:09:38,600
Speaker 1: I think everything, honestly, I do think all aesthetic appreciation

1199
01:09:39,280 --> 01:09:43,280
Speaker 1: eventually gets really strange because you're perhaps getting a little

1200
01:09:43,280 --> 01:09:45,880
Speaker 1: bored and you're looking for that new feeling again, right?

1201
01:09:45,960 --> 01:09:48,439
Speaker 1: Does that happen with everything? So I wonder about cars,

1202
01:09:48,479 --> 01:09:51,320
Speaker 1: like if you if you are somebody who's obsessed with cars,

1203
01:09:51,360 --> 01:09:53,240
Speaker 1: you go to all the auto shows and you read

1204
01:09:53,240 --> 01:09:55,760
Speaker 1: all the car blogs and all that. Eventually, are you

1205
01:09:55,840 --> 01:09:59,759
Speaker 1: like only interested in batmobiles and rocket powered cars and stuff,

1206
01:09:59,840 --> 01:10:02,559
Speaker 1: or like, I don't know, I wonder about that. I

1207
01:10:02,560 --> 01:10:05,040
Speaker 1: think this will relate again to what we were looking

1208
01:10:05,080 --> 01:10:07,799
Speaker 1: at um before, with like the different kinds of brains,

1209
01:10:08,200 --> 01:10:10,320
Speaker 1: where there was the one kind of brain. Um that

1210
01:10:10,360 --> 01:10:12,920
Speaker 1: this was when you were talking about openness, how one

1211
01:10:13,080 --> 01:10:16,000
Speaker 1: was looking for the novel, looking for the new, and

1212
01:10:16,040 --> 01:10:18,040
Speaker 1: the other one was looking for the traditional, looking for

1213
01:10:18,080 --> 01:10:21,360
Speaker 1: the essential, you know. And I really do feel like,

1214
01:10:21,560 --> 01:10:24,479
Speaker 1: perhaps let's let's take a car example. I think neither

1215
01:10:24,479 --> 01:10:27,080
Speaker 1: of us are car guys, but we will put ourselves

1216
01:10:27,080 --> 01:10:29,280
Speaker 1: in that world. There is someone that goes to know,

1217
01:10:29,720 --> 01:10:33,920
Speaker 1: my nineteen sixties Corvette is the perfect car that I

1218
01:10:33,960 --> 01:10:36,560
Speaker 1: will love forever. And then there's another person at the

1219
01:10:36,600 --> 01:10:38,800
Speaker 1: same car show who's looking at all the like the

1220
01:10:38,840 --> 01:10:41,080
Speaker 1: fancy like I don't even know what they're called, but

1221
01:10:41,200 --> 01:10:44,360
Speaker 1: like the like the prototype cars that will never actually

1222
01:10:44,400 --> 01:10:47,560
Speaker 1: be made but always look really really neat and futuristic,

1223
01:10:47,640 --> 01:10:51,800
Speaker 1: and you know, blade Runner esque. Um, they'll only drive

1224
01:10:51,840 --> 01:10:55,360
Speaker 1: one of those spike cars from Fury Road. Yes, And

1225
01:10:55,600 --> 01:10:58,200
Speaker 1: so I think both exist, and I think both exist

1226
01:10:58,880 --> 01:11:01,479
Speaker 1: in also at every form of arts, like there are

1227
01:11:01,560 --> 01:11:04,240
Speaker 1: people who are I only listen to classic rock, and

1228
01:11:04,280 --> 01:11:06,599
Speaker 1: there are people who are like, no, I need I

1229
01:11:06,680 --> 01:11:10,559
Speaker 1: need some chainsaws on ice cubes, you know, through reverb

1230
01:11:10,680 --> 01:11:13,439
Speaker 1: chamber sus so I I it's all there, you know,

1231
01:11:13,800 --> 01:11:17,080
Speaker 1: some people like Thomas Kincaid, some people like Picasso, and

1232
01:11:17,120 --> 01:11:19,599
Speaker 1: I think it's it's all good. It's all good. And

1233
01:11:19,680 --> 01:11:22,600
Speaker 1: I think perhaps what you're talking about with the the

1234
01:11:22,640 --> 01:11:26,160
Speaker 1: differences between openness and just what brain connectivity does for

1235
01:11:26,200 --> 01:11:29,800
Speaker 1: you personally might might help explain that. And Frizon, yeah,

1236
01:11:29,840 --> 01:11:31,880
Speaker 1: I think you could be right about that. So I

1237
01:11:31,960 --> 01:11:34,240
Speaker 1: realized time is running short, but there's one more thing

1238
01:11:34,320 --> 01:11:35,960
Speaker 1: I wanted to hit before we wrap up, because I

1239
01:11:36,000 --> 01:11:39,600
Speaker 1: think this is interesting as well. Um So I came across,

1240
01:11:39,640 --> 01:11:42,759
Speaker 1: like I mentioned, this researcher named Oregon Vessel of is Key.

1241
01:11:42,800 --> 01:11:44,640
Speaker 1: He's got a study I was looking at published in

1242
01:11:44,720 --> 01:11:47,479
Speaker 1: Social Cognitive and affect of Neuroscience. But I actually found

1243
01:11:47,520 --> 01:11:50,439
Speaker 1: what was really interesting was an interview with him done

1244
01:11:50,439 --> 01:11:55,360
Speaker 1: by a poetry journal called The Napkin Poetry Review. And

1245
01:11:55,560 --> 01:11:59,960
Speaker 1: in this interview, this guy was talking about the constant

1246
01:12:00,040 --> 01:12:03,120
Speaker 1: upt of pleasure in negative emotions, which I think is

1247
01:12:03,160 --> 01:12:05,240
Speaker 1: something that really does need to be addressed if we're

1248
01:12:05,240 --> 01:12:09,080
Speaker 1: talking about uh freesan in in music, because it's so

1249
01:12:09,120 --> 01:12:11,600
Speaker 1: often in in songs that are sad or have some

1250
01:12:11,680 --> 01:12:14,880
Speaker 1: kind of negative valence. And actually he points out that,

1251
01:12:14,920 --> 01:12:18,719
Speaker 1: you know, Aristotle wrote about this apparent paradox, like why

1252
01:12:18,760 --> 01:12:22,439
Speaker 1: do people enjoy going to the theater to watch tragic

1253
01:12:22,520 --> 01:12:25,880
Speaker 1: plays that are full of pity and fear and anguish?

1254
01:12:25,920 --> 01:12:29,320
Speaker 1: Are these emotions not painful when we experience them in

1255
01:12:29,360 --> 01:12:31,920
Speaker 1: our lives And the answer is yes, they are. But

1256
01:12:31,960 --> 01:12:36,240
Speaker 1: there must be something about experiencing them in the context

1257
01:12:36,320 --> 01:12:41,440
Speaker 1: of a play that transforms these negative emotions into something pleasurable.

1258
01:12:41,520 --> 01:12:44,720
Speaker 1: That we want to seek out and repeat. And as

1259
01:12:44,720 --> 01:12:46,880
Speaker 1: an analogy, you might think, of course, about that sad

1260
01:12:46,920 --> 01:12:49,400
Speaker 1: song you can't stop listening to. There's some kind of

1261
01:12:49,479 --> 01:12:54,280
Speaker 1: pleasure in the aesthetics of sadness. Um. Now, another way

1262
01:12:54,280 --> 01:12:57,599
Speaker 1: of possibly explaining this is that Aristotle wrote also about

1263
01:12:57,600 --> 01:13:01,080
Speaker 1: the the complexity of negative emotions them elves, and how

1264
01:13:01,080 --> 01:13:05,360
Speaker 1: they often contain pleasurable aspects. So, for example, he wrote

1265
01:13:05,400 --> 01:13:08,559
Speaker 1: that anger always has an element of pleasure in it

1266
01:13:08,640 --> 01:13:12,360
Speaker 1: because the person who's angry is always at some level

1267
01:13:12,439 --> 01:13:16,360
Speaker 1: sort of experiencing a thrill from from the expectation of

1268
01:13:16,479 --> 01:13:20,200
Speaker 1: vengeance for you know, the way they've been wronged and uh,

1269
01:13:20,200 --> 01:13:22,479
Speaker 1: and obviously you know, there's a lot of media that

1270
01:13:22,600 --> 01:13:27,000
Speaker 1: clearly seems geared towards just making people recreationally angry. Sometimes

1271
01:13:27,000 --> 01:13:30,120
Speaker 1: people want to get angry about stuff. But you could

1272
01:13:30,120 --> 01:13:32,720
Speaker 1: also say that the same could be true about sadness,

1273
01:13:32,760 --> 01:13:36,439
Speaker 1: that maybe there is something going on with sadness, that

1274
01:13:36,680 --> 01:13:40,000
Speaker 1: maybe sadness can be pleasurable in some ways, if it's

1275
01:13:40,040 --> 01:13:43,000
Speaker 1: just say, due to separation of loss, because there's this

1276
01:13:43,120 --> 01:13:47,160
Speaker 1: pleasurable anticipation of redemption and reunion, the same way that

1277
01:13:47,439 --> 01:13:50,920
Speaker 1: anger could be pleasurable because there's this anticipation of revenge.

1278
01:13:52,080 --> 01:13:55,000
Speaker 1: But anyway, for so for for this researcher of Vasalowski,

1279
01:13:55,400 --> 01:13:57,439
Speaker 1: he said that this ended up making him want to

1280
01:13:57,479 --> 01:14:01,000
Speaker 1: study that the concept of being moved moved, which is

1281
01:14:01,479 --> 01:14:05,240
Speaker 1: something that's clearly not just like pleasurable or painful. It

1282
01:14:05,360 --> 01:14:09,080
Speaker 1: is this intense emotional state that can blend positive and

1283
01:14:09,160 --> 01:14:12,479
Speaker 1: negative emotions into a single episode. It's it's pleasure and

1284
01:14:12,520 --> 01:14:16,960
Speaker 1: pain indivisible, actually um and that he u. He added

1285
01:14:16,960 --> 01:14:19,840
Speaker 1: a hypothesis onto this concept of being moved, which has

1286
01:14:19,880 --> 01:14:23,200
Speaker 1: been explored by by philosophers for centuries, which is that

1287
01:14:23,320 --> 01:14:27,960
Speaker 1: it seems like peaque moments of being moved, having this ambiguous,

1288
01:14:28,000 --> 01:14:32,200
Speaker 1: complex emotional episode where you're experiencing both maybe joy and

1289
01:14:32,240 --> 01:14:35,880
Speaker 1: sadness at the same time. Those experiences tend to be

1290
01:14:35,960 --> 01:14:39,840
Speaker 1: marked by emotional chills or goose bumps. Yet again, and

1291
01:14:39,880 --> 01:14:42,320
Speaker 1: so he did some research looking into this in people's

1292
01:14:42,360 --> 01:14:46,360
Speaker 1: responses to poetry and uh and in talking about possible

1293
01:14:46,439 --> 01:14:49,559
Speaker 1: reasons why people why we might have this reaction, he says,

1294
01:14:49,600 --> 01:14:53,559
Speaker 1: you know, it could be that it's it's conceptually when

1295
01:14:53,680 --> 01:14:58,000
Speaker 1: something feels important and at stake, you know, when when

1296
01:14:58,000 --> 01:15:02,320
Speaker 1: it feels like that the autonomic nervous system is aroused

1297
01:15:02,360 --> 01:15:06,840
Speaker 1: and causes this goose bumps reaction, uh that is presented

1298
01:15:06,880 --> 01:15:10,000
Speaker 1: to the conscious brain as a sort of signal that's

1299
01:15:10,040 --> 01:15:12,439
Speaker 1: something that's going on in the art that you're listening.

1300
01:15:12,479 --> 01:15:14,200
Speaker 1: You know, the music you're listening to or the poem

1301
01:15:14,240 --> 01:15:17,599
Speaker 1: you're reading, something important seems to be up for grabs,

1302
01:15:17,640 --> 01:15:19,759
Speaker 1: and that you need to be on alert and remember

1303
01:15:19,840 --> 01:15:24,280
Speaker 1: what's happening. Makes sense. And this comes back to you know,

1304
01:15:24,320 --> 01:15:26,479
Speaker 1: I can think of a lot of the things that

1305
01:15:26,600 --> 01:15:29,920
Speaker 1: give me goose bumps in art that are somewhat positive,

1306
01:15:30,000 --> 01:15:32,919
Speaker 1: but they also, like I was saying earlier with lie Miserab,

1307
01:15:33,000 --> 01:15:37,080
Speaker 1: they involves some element of like risk or change, maybe

1308
01:15:37,400 --> 01:15:41,439
Speaker 1: displays of courage or new possibilities, which are themselves often

1309
01:15:41,560 --> 01:15:44,600
Speaker 1: very very kind of scary. So coming back to what

1310
01:15:44,720 --> 01:15:46,920
Speaker 1: Vassal of Whisky says in this interview, he says, you

1311
01:15:46,960 --> 01:15:50,160
Speaker 1: have the negative emotion on the foreground and this antidote

1312
01:15:50,160 --> 01:15:53,479
Speaker 1: in the background, or vice versa. But there's always this clash.

1313
01:15:53,560 --> 01:15:57,320
Speaker 1: You can't really decide on if it's now positive or negative,

1314
01:15:57,600 --> 01:16:00,400
Speaker 1: So it's somehow both and this creates a lot of tension.

1315
01:16:00,840 --> 01:16:03,920
Speaker 1: But importantly, we can experience this clash from an aesthetic

1316
01:16:04,040 --> 01:16:07,760
Speaker 1: distance mode. So it's something about the the ambiguity of

1317
01:16:07,800 --> 01:16:11,640
Speaker 1: these uh, these you know, stimuli that elicit a combination

1318
01:16:11,760 --> 01:16:14,720
Speaker 1: of of pleasure and pain, of joy and sadness at

1319
01:16:14,720 --> 01:16:17,280
Speaker 1: the same time that caused this feeling of being moved.

1320
01:16:17,680 --> 01:16:20,519
Speaker 1: Something about the the high stakes that seem to be

1321
01:16:20,560 --> 01:16:25,520
Speaker 1: suggested by these by these complex emotional states, maybe stimulate

1322
01:16:25,560 --> 01:16:28,400
Speaker 1: the autonomic nervous system because it's making your body in

1323
01:16:28,520 --> 01:16:31,880
Speaker 1: some conceptual sense, feel threatened, as if there was like

1324
01:16:31,920 --> 01:16:34,479
Speaker 1: a bearer menacing you, and it's trying to get your

1325
01:16:34,520 --> 01:16:38,360
Speaker 1: attention to do something about this, this concept that's being raised.

1326
01:16:39,000 --> 01:16:41,479
Speaker 1: But then again, as with what we talked about before,

1327
01:16:41,560 --> 01:16:44,160
Speaker 1: maybe it's possible that you realize you can trigger this

1328
01:16:44,240 --> 01:16:48,040
Speaker 1: response with some kind of aesthetic stimulus like music or poetry.

1329
01:16:48,600 --> 01:16:51,280
Speaker 1: And then once you realize you can trigger it, the

1330
01:16:52,200 --> 01:16:54,680
Speaker 1: reward system in the brain just wants to get it

1331
01:16:54,720 --> 01:16:57,000
Speaker 1: again and says, well, let's try that again and again,

1332
01:16:57,439 --> 01:17:00,680
Speaker 1: and and that's what motivates perhaps the play measurable kind

1333
01:17:00,680 --> 01:17:04,240
Speaker 1: of feeling there, it's the grasping after it. Yeah, I

1334
01:17:04,360 --> 01:17:07,040
Speaker 1: think we've answered some quell I'm not gonna say we've

1335
01:17:07,080 --> 01:17:10,520
Speaker 1: answered some questions, but like you said, we we've identified

1336
01:17:10,560 --> 01:17:12,960
Speaker 1: some puzzle pieces, we've laid them out on the table,

1337
01:17:13,439 --> 01:17:16,080
Speaker 1: and we've taken a good look at them. What seems

1338
01:17:16,120 --> 01:17:18,240
Speaker 1: most compelling to you now that we've talked about all this.

1339
01:17:19,240 --> 01:17:23,840
Speaker 1: I do think that Frison seems to me to be

1340
01:17:24,200 --> 01:17:29,680
Speaker 1: an evolutionary leftover that is tied to the fight or

1341
01:17:29,680 --> 01:17:34,640
Speaker 1: flight response, and that perhaps our brains have misinterpreted it

1342
01:17:35,280 --> 01:17:39,559
Speaker 1: into something that has made us enjoy art in many ways,

1343
01:17:39,600 --> 01:17:44,320
Speaker 1: but in particular music, which doesn't make a lot of sense. However,

1344
01:17:45,360 --> 01:17:48,000
Speaker 1: that's what it's it's adding up to in my mind.

1345
01:17:48,360 --> 01:17:52,439
Speaker 1: And yeah, and this could this is a this is

1346
01:17:52,479 --> 01:17:55,639
Speaker 1: a deep, deep situation that we've we've kind of dug

1347
01:17:55,640 --> 01:17:58,479
Speaker 1: ourselves into, and I'm not sure if we'll be able

1348
01:17:58,520 --> 01:18:00,240
Speaker 1: to get out all right. Well, the next thing is

1349
01:18:00,280 --> 01:18:03,200
Speaker 1: everybody's gotta go listen to Record Store Society. What's a

1350
01:18:03,240 --> 01:18:05,360
Speaker 1: what's a good episode for people to start off with?

1351
01:18:05,479 --> 01:18:08,479
Speaker 1: Is something you've done recently? You think people should look up? Well,

1352
01:18:08,560 --> 01:18:11,880
Speaker 1: if they specifically want to hear you and Robert, they

1353
01:18:11,880 --> 01:18:14,440
Speaker 1: got to check out let's see. I think that's episode

1354
01:18:14,640 --> 01:18:18,360
Speaker 1: seventeen and that episode is called Video Dream and that's

1355
01:18:18,360 --> 01:18:21,000
Speaker 1: the one where we do a deep dive into a

1356
01:18:21,080 --> 01:18:25,040
Speaker 1: whole bunch of our favorite music videos. Um, let's see

1357
01:18:25,040 --> 01:18:29,000
Speaker 1: there's a lot of other really good ones. Oh man. Um,

1358
01:18:29,040 --> 01:18:31,599
Speaker 1: there's a really great one called EP or Not EP.

1359
01:18:32,000 --> 01:18:36,120
Speaker 1: That's episode nineteen where that's there's a music journalist and

1360
01:18:36,160 --> 01:18:39,040
Speaker 1: author Matt Lamay. He was one of the uh like

1361
01:18:39,120 --> 01:18:43,360
Speaker 1: the like original like a Pitchfork writers back in the day. Um,

1362
01:18:43,520 --> 01:18:46,559
Speaker 1: and that's a really fun conversation. We've got a really

1363
01:18:46,600 --> 01:18:50,000
Speaker 1: great episode coming out this Friday, but I I suppose

1364
01:18:50,600 --> 01:18:53,200
Speaker 1: yeah it's tomorrow. I can, I can stay here tomorrow.

1365
01:18:53,200 --> 01:18:56,000
Speaker 1: I've got this really great musician named m Sage. He's

1366
01:18:56,000 --> 01:18:59,960
Speaker 1: one of my favorites. And um, we're discussing music document

1367
01:19:00,080 --> 01:19:03,559
Speaker 1: trees and that's a very fun deep well so uh

1368
01:19:03,960 --> 01:19:07,240
Speaker 1: because I'm I'm stage. In addition to being a wonderful musician,

1369
01:19:07,560 --> 01:19:11,560
Speaker 1: also happens to be a film professor in Chicago at

1370
01:19:11,600 --> 01:19:14,639
Speaker 1: a university. So uh, he he's got a really great

1371
01:19:15,120 --> 01:19:19,799
Speaker 1: um dual knowledge that really music documentaries are the perfect

1372
01:19:19,800 --> 01:19:21,599
Speaker 1: subject to have him talk about. So he's a lot

1373
01:19:21,640 --> 01:19:24,360
Speaker 1: of fun. So anyway, Uh, there's always something fun going

1374
01:19:24,400 --> 01:19:28,200
Speaker 1: on every episode's good. But but those are a few alright, folks. Well,

1375
01:19:28,240 --> 01:19:30,280
Speaker 1: if that catches your fancy, you should go check out

1376
01:19:30,320 --> 01:19:34,880
Speaker 1: Seth's podcast, Record Store Society. Uh. In the meantime, I'll

1377
01:19:34,880 --> 01:19:36,479
Speaker 1: see do we have anything else? Now? I guess that

1378
01:19:36,520 --> 01:19:38,760
Speaker 1: wraps it up for today. But um, but yeah, if

1379
01:19:38,800 --> 01:19:41,480
Speaker 1: you want to find any more of your of our podcasts,

1380
01:19:41,520 --> 01:19:43,160
Speaker 1: we are stuff to blow your mind. You can find

1381
01:19:43,200 --> 01:19:45,960
Speaker 1: us wherever you get your podcast. We're on all the platforms,

1382
01:19:46,000 --> 01:19:48,200
Speaker 1: all the stuff like that, or you can just google us.

1383
01:19:48,800 --> 01:19:51,680
Speaker 1: Of course, Please, as always hit subscribe if you're not

1384
01:19:51,720 --> 01:19:53,600
Speaker 1: subscribe so you can get all of the episodes we

1385
01:19:53,640 --> 01:19:56,120
Speaker 1: put out in the future. Big thanks as always to

1386
01:19:56,280 --> 01:19:59,160
Speaker 1: Seth who is our wonderful producer, produces every episode of

1387
01:19:59,200 --> 01:20:01,840
Speaker 1: this show and does it does such a great job. Seth,

1388
01:20:01,920 --> 01:20:04,040
Speaker 1: we love you and well I really appreciate you coming

1389
01:20:04,080 --> 01:20:06,479
Speaker 1: on the show today. Very happy to do it. And

1390
01:20:06,800 --> 01:20:09,200
Speaker 1: Robert will be back next time. That's right, yes, so

1391
01:20:09,479 --> 01:20:11,879
Speaker 1: Robert will be back on the show in the next episode.

1392
01:20:12,360 --> 01:20:13,880
Speaker 1: And in the meantime, if you want to get in

1393
01:20:13,920 --> 01:20:15,960
Speaker 1: touch with us to give us feedback on this episode

1394
01:20:16,040 --> 01:20:18,160
Speaker 1: or any other to suggest topic for the future, just

1395
01:20:18,200 --> 01:20:20,640
Speaker 1: to say hello. You can email us at contact at

1396
01:20:20,680 --> 01:20:30,559
Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. Stuff to Blow

1397
01:20:30,600 --> 01:20:33,160
Speaker 1: Your Mind is production of I Heart Radio. For more

1398
01:20:33,160 --> 01:20:35,200
Speaker 1: podcasts for my heart Radio, this is the i heart

1399
01:20:35,240 --> 01:20:38,000
Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to your

1400
01:20:38,000 --> 01:20:47,519
Speaker 1: favorite shows.