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Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome back to Drilled. I'm Amy Westerveldt. For years,

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Speaker 1: literally years, people have been pitching me their excellent books

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Speaker 1: on climate and policy and energy and democracy. And I

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Speaker 1: love all the books, and I never have time to

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Speaker 1: read them and do reviews, and I feel terrible about it.

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Speaker 1: So we're changing that over here at Drilled. We've launched

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Speaker 1: a series called Drilling Deep, in which we will be

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Speaker 1: talking to authors about their books. And the hack here

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Speaker 1: is that it won't always be me. In fact, it

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Speaker 1: might never be me, even though I.

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Speaker 2: Do really enjoy reading them and learning more about them.

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Speaker 2: This week, Adam Lowenstein, who is doing most of these

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Speaker 2: interviews for US, talks to Casey Michelle, the author of

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Speaker 2: Foreign Agents, How American lobbyists and lawmakers Threatened democracy around

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Speaker 2: the World. The book was actually published last year, but

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Speaker 2: Michelle just wrote a really interesting piece in The Atlantic

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Speaker 2: that kind of updates the thinking from the book for

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Speaker 2: the second Trump administration. Just one quote, America has never

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Speaker 2: seen corruption like this. Michelle's book explored the web of lobbyists,

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Speaker 2: pr gurus, and former politicians who are paid to influence

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Speaker 2: the US government on behalf of foreign regimes and no

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Speaker 2: surprise here. One of Trump's first moves in office was

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Speaker 2: an executive order stopping enforcement of the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act.

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Speaker 2: Adam had a great conversation with Michelle. I hope you

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Speaker 2: enjoy it. Check out the book. We'll link to both

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Speaker 2: the book and the Atlantic piece in the show notes,

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Speaker 2: and we'll see you back here soon for more drilling.

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Speaker 3: Deep cool, let's get into it.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, good place to start is your recent piece in

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Speaker 4: the Atlantic titled America has Never seen corruption like This,

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Speaker 4: which pretty much sums it up. But let's start with

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Speaker 4: some of the arguments you make in that piece.

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Speaker 5: Yeah. Well, thank Adam, of course. First things first, thanks

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Speaker 5: for having me back. It's great to reconnect. Of course,

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Speaker 5: as we were just talking off Mike, I wish it

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Speaker 5: was under better circumstances, but that's the world that we

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Speaker 5: live in.

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Speaker 3: Thanks for coming back on.

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Speaker 4: And yeah, we left off at an interesting place during

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Speaker 4: the Biden years, and we might get into that a little.

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Speaker 5: Yes, the Biden years, I remember those fondly the past,

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Speaker 5: truly as a foreign country. Yeah. Look, so the article

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Speaker 5: that I have in the Atlantic that you mentioned just

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Speaker 5: the other day was not pegged to anyone news development,

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Speaker 5: anyone revelation, anyone exposure, or anyone international corruption network. It

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Speaker 5: was trying to survey the field over the last six

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Speaker 5: months or so, now that we're about six months into

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Speaker 5: the new administration, of just how frankly historic the scope

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Speaker 5: and the scale of the corruption emanating from and running

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Speaker 5: through the White House, and of course the broader kind

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Speaker 5: of world of Trump affiliates and the Trump family and

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Speaker 5: of course the Trump organization. Truly is what I have

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Speaker 5: found on my end is maybe not the most effective things,

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Speaker 5: but one effective thing that I found on my end

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Speaker 5: in my rioting is trying to examine historic parallels such

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Speaker 5: as they are throughout predominantly American history, of networks of valances,

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Speaker 5: of stories of corruption, almost all of which throughout the

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Speaker 5: predominant of American history have been domestic. Donald Trump is

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Speaker 5: by no means the first president of the first administration

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Speaker 5: that has been embroiled in corruption scandals. You know, I

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Speaker 5: laid out at the outset of the Peace it self

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Speaker 5: that you go back to the days of Ulysses S.

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Speaker 5: Grant and his family members in inner circles, It go

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Speaker 5: back to the days of Warren Harding and Teapot Dome.

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Speaker 5: Of course, go back to the days of Richard Nixon

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Speaker 5: and a Watergate, even though that is predominantly remembered as

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Speaker 5: a political story, which it absolutely was. There's also a

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Speaker 5: story of rank corruption, especially corporate corruption, regarding linkages with

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Speaker 5: with the White House, and that's all true. Those are

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Speaker 5: all scandals under themselves. Of course, Teapot Dome for nearly

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Speaker 5: a century was kind of the shorthand for presidential corruption.

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Speaker 5: But what we we have seen over the last five

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Speaker 5: six months now, you know, it blows all of that

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Speaker 5: out of the water. There really is no historic comparison

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Speaker 5: for the scope, the scale, and of course the speed

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Speaker 5: with all with which all of this has happened itself.

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Speaker 5: And you can talk about specific incidents of it. You

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Speaker 5: can talk, of course about the Katari Jet, the forms

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Speaker 5: million dollar luxury liner gifted from a foreign dictatorship directly

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Speaker 5: to a sitting president. You can talk about the crypto

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Speaker 5: and the meme coins. Of course, you could talk about

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Speaker 5: the Trump organization itself. That's all perfectly true, that's all

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Speaker 5: beyond anything we've ever seen before. But you could also

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Speaker 5: talk about the policy developments on how the administration has

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Speaker 5: really taken an absolute sledgehammer to whatever kind of anti

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Speaker 5: corruption bona fides the US once had, you know, going

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Speaker 5: all the way back, maybe fifty years or so in

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Speaker 5: the post Watergate era is when you can really begin

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Speaker 5: to examine the rise of this kind of anti corruption

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Speaker 5: regime or these anti corruption policies. Almost all of those

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Speaker 5: have been completely decimated, either unenforced, completely dissolved in terms

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Speaker 5: of some task forces, no resourcing for actual investigations themselves.

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Speaker 5: And of course what we've seen take place at the

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Speaker 5: Department of Justice with the clear quid pro quo in

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Speaker 5: terms of dropping certain prosecutions, including against our beloved mayor

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Speaker 5: here in New York City, who was allegedly going around

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Speaker 5: the world, especially in places like Turkey and asking for

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Speaker 5: a campaign financing, which was of course the reddest of

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Speaker 5: red lines. I mean, Adam, look, I could talk to

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Speaker 5: you and maybe we will talk for a full hour

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Speaker 5: about all of the developments out of it. That is

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Speaker 5: sort of the plan that's about the Trump administration. But

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Speaker 5: it was it was an exercise in trying to get

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Speaker 5: all of this into one single article. I still left

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Speaker 5: plenty of material on the chopping block, right. I don't

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Speaker 5: think I mentioned once maybe I mentioned in passing the

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Speaker 5: role and relationships of Jared Kushner and the billions of

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Speaker 5: dollars that the president's son in law has brought in

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Speaker 5: from dictatorship after dictatorship, as far as anyone can tell,

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Speaker 5: only because he is, of course, the son in law

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Speaker 5: of a sitting president. I mean, that's just one figure

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Speaker 5: among many that I had to leave out of this article.

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Speaker 5: The list goes on and on and on.

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Speaker 4: One of the things you mentioned in that Atlantic piece

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Speaker 4: is the Foreign Corrupt Practice Act. Can you talk about

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Speaker 4: what that law is or was, and what it means

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Speaker 4: for the Trump administration to stop enforcing it.

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Speaker 5: The Foreign Corrupt Practices Act, it's known by its acronym

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Speaker 5: the FCPA, and that's what I'll generally refer to it

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Speaker 5: as this was really the bedrock of America's anti corruption

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Speaker 5: statutes or policies going back nearly fifty years. You know,

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Speaker 5: I talked a moment ago about about Watergate. In the

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Speaker 5: aftermath of Watergate and the revelations they were in and again,

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Speaker 5: it wasn't just about about a burglar at the Watergate hotel.

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Speaker 5: It wasn't just about the links that Richard Nixon would

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Speaker 5: go to to remain in power as Congressional investigators discovered

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Speaker 5: there were any number of leading American corporations secretly bankrolling

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Speaker 5: Richard Nixon's re election campaign in nineteen seventy two. Again,

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Speaker 5: this was contravening all manner of campaign finance law back

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Speaker 5: in the nineteen seventies. But it wasn't just that. It

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Speaker 5: was also that many of these companies were going around

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Speaker 5: the world and bribing corrupt officials in places like Japan

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Speaker 5: and South Korea, places like the Netherlands, but also places

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Speaker 5: like Saudi Arabia, and finding corrupt regimes, corrupt officials that

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Speaker 5: they could pay off to open the doors for American

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Speaker 5: business and American commerce and of course keep those regimes

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Speaker 5: in power for as long as they wanted as well.

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Speaker 5: And when these revelations came out, right, we're talking tens

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Speaker 5: hundreds of millions of dollars, significant amounts of money. When

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Speaker 5: these revelations came out, you know, it wasn't just a

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Speaker 5: scandal that American companies are going around the world and bribing,

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Speaker 5: you know, autocratic regimes in places like Honduras. It is

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Speaker 5: also that when those revelations came out, all of a sudden,

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Speaker 5: all manner of anti American forces and political parties and

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Speaker 5: movements could point to those regimes and point to those

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Speaker 5: American companies and say, look at what is happening, Look

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Speaker 5: at what the US is doing, what it is allowing,

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Speaker 5: and look at what these American companies are doing in

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Speaker 5: terms of smothering any kind of democracy again, in places

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Speaker 5: like the military dictatorship South Korea, autocracy on Honduras, so

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Speaker 5: on and so on. It's funny I was rereading this

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Speaker 5: earlier this morning. Some of the congressional testimonies, some of

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Speaker 5: the biggest benefactors of all these revelations were things like

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Speaker 5: communist parties. Again, remember the nineteen seventies, near the height

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Speaker 5: of the Cold War, and all of a sudden, the

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Speaker 5: Communists can point to officials in Italy or the Netherlands

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Speaker 5: or wherever it is, and say, look at just how

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Speaker 5: corrupt the Americans and their lackeys in power here are.

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Speaker 5: So that's all kind of a long winded way of

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Speaker 5: setting the stage for what legislators ended up doing in

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Speaker 5: nineteen seventy seven, realizing just how damaging this was to

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Speaker 5: American policies and an American foreign policy especially, they passed this

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Speaker 5: thing called the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act, which is really

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Speaker 5: I want to make sure to kind of convey just

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Speaker 5: how monumental this was. This wasn't just the first time

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Speaker 5: in American history that it was now a crime for

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Speaker 5: American corporations or American businessman to bribe foreign officials. This

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Speaker 5: was the first time anywhere had ever passed anything like this,

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Speaker 5: the first time in global history any country had made

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Speaker 5: it a crime to engage in bribery, not in that

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Speaker 5: country and specifically, but a foreign country in and of itself.

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Speaker 5: So again, what the FCPA does is it makes it

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Speaker 5: illegal for any American in any American company, any American

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Speaker 5: business person, or any foreign company that's listed on an

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Speaker 5: American stock exchange, even if they're not technically American companies themselves,

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Speaker 5: to engage in bribery abroad in any country around the world.

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Speaker 5: And this was nineteen seventy seven, This was nearly fifty

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Speaker 5: years ago. And that's really, again I used the term earlier,

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Speaker 5: the kind of the bedrock from where we saw over

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Speaker 5: the ensuing decades, all of these other anti corruption policies

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Speaker 5: really stem from that really declared American leadership in this space.

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Speaker 5: We eventually saw it replicated in places like Canada. The

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Speaker 5: European Union, United Kingdom, but also really set the kind

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Speaker 5: of the baseline for where American anti corruption policy would

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Speaker 5: go from there. So then eventually you had things like

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Speaker 5: Shell company transparency. Eventually you had things like new task

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Speaker 5: forces dedicated to targeting and seizing and returning dirty money.

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Speaker 5: Of course, you had the Department of Justice prosecuting all

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Speaker 5: around the world corrupt networks. Again, that was a long

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Speaker 5: winded way of saying the FCPA was wonderful, and technically

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Speaker 5: it is still on the books, but in one of

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Speaker 5: the very first things that Donald Trump did in returning

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Speaker 5: to the presidency was announced effectively it was no longer

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Speaker 5: going to be enforced. As he saw it, it was

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Speaker 5: a quote horror show of a law that prevented American

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Speaker 5: businesses from engaging in routine business practices abroad and damaging

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Speaker 5: American competitiveness, which is just a nice little euphemistic way

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Speaker 5: of saying American companies and American businessmen should be able

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Speaker 5: to bribe whoever they want without being concerned by without

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Speaker 5: being worried about prosecution from the Department of Justice. It

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Speaker 5: was devastating to see. It was a monumental, even generational setback.

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Speaker 5: The Silver lining is it's still on the books, and

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Speaker 5: a potential future administration could of course begin reinforcing it.

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Speaker 5: But it was a very clear sign of the direction

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Speaker 5: this administration was going to go in.

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Speaker 4: That raises an important distinction, which is the direction of travel,

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Speaker 4: the direction of corrupt travel? I guess which is The

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Speaker 4: FCPA focuses on American companies illegally or unlawfully or unethically

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Speaker 4: influencing governments around the world. Your book, Foreign Agents, which

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Speaker 4: we talked about last year, focuses on sort of the

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Speaker 4: reverse direction of corruption. Obviously it's all interrelated, but focuses

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Speaker 4: on the government's authoritarian regimes around the world hiring US officials, politicians,

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Speaker 4: influencers of various kinds who have access to the US

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Speaker 4: government and can shape American policy. What is the state

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Speaker 4: of the corrupt Union when it comes to foreign influence

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Speaker 4: on the United States?

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Speaker 5: The state of affairs right now is I don't know, terrible, terrifying, unsettling.

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Speaker 4: Yes, it depends if you are making money or not.

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Speaker 5: Oh sure, sure, it depends on what kind of line

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Speaker 5: of work you're in. And I suppose what kind of morals,

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Speaker 5: if any, you have about or scruples I should say

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Speaker 5: about working with some of those the most heinous regimes

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Speaker 5: around the world. Again, just as a little bit of context.

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Speaker 5: I know Adam and I spoke about this in the past.

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Speaker 5: In the United States of America, it's not illegal. It's

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Speaker 5: perfectly legal for you or I or any other American

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Speaker 5: to go lobby on behalf of not only any cause

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Speaker 5: that we want, but any regime that we want. You

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Speaker 5: and I can right now go talk to our legislators

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Speaker 5: about how actually wonderful the regime in Saudi Arabia or

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Speaker 5: the United Arab Emirates or Gabone or Venezuela or whatever

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Speaker 5: it is might be. That's predominant because in the First Amendment,

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Speaker 5: we have the right to petition the government for redress

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Speaker 5: of grievances, which is just an old timey way of

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Speaker 5: saying lobbying. You and I can go lobby for whatever

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Speaker 5: cause we want. That is not illegal. All Americans have

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Speaker 5: to do is register their work. If they're being paid

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Speaker 5: to do that by these foreign governments. They just have

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Speaker 5: to register with the Department of Justice and declare what

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Speaker 5: they're doing and disclose how much they're making and so

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Speaker 5: on and so forth. And you and I can go

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Speaker 5: online to the Department of Justice website and take a

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Speaker 5: look through that database of all of these American lobbyists

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Speaker 5: we're selling themselves to regime after regime around the world.

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Speaker 5: And again, as you just laid out, it's not even

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Speaker 5: just traditional lobbyists, right, these kind of traditional lobbying firms

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Speaker 5: in DC. It's a pr specialists, it's consultants, it's of

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Speaker 5: course many former members of Congress or of Cabinet or

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Speaker 5: previous administrations themselves. It is, you know, a whole kind

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Speaker 5: of constellation of American industries are now congealing within the

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Speaker 5: one broader umbrella industry of foreign lobbying. And because of

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Speaker 5: Donald Trump's first term, again, this is now a multi

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Speaker 5: billion dollar industry itself. These are extremely effective lobbyists. These

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Speaker 5: are extremely effective networks at implementing policies that these foreign

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Speaker 5: regimes want to see implemented. And again, it's things like

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Speaker 5: arms sales, it's things like the lifting or prevention of sanctions.

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Speaker 5: It's even things and we were talking about this off

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Speaker 5: my in terms of climate it's even things like fast

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Speaker 5: tracking energy policies that benefit hydrocarbon producers and pushing off

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Speaker 5: or gutting green or clean tech reforms that again, places

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Speaker 5: like China or Azerbaijan or Saudi Arabia, the major oil

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Speaker 5: producers do not want to see pursued. It's been extremely

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Speaker 5: effective because because of Donald Trump's first term, there was

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Speaker 5: kind of a rising salience about some of these threats

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Speaker 5: because it's not just that their lobbying officials. What a

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Speaker 5: lot of folks realized is that these lobbyists were really

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Speaker 5: enmeshing themselves in the highest levels of American policy making

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Speaker 5: in any ways, crafting American foreign policy that should have

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Speaker 5: been crafted by American legislators of those in the White House,

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Speaker 5: but instead was being directed by these foreign lobbyists themselves.

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Speaker 5: And Adam, I can't remember when you and I spoke last,

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Speaker 5: but I believe it was after, maybe right around the

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Speaker 5: same time as the conviction of former Senator Bob Menendez,

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Speaker 5: who was before his conviction, was the chairman of the

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Speaker 5: Senate Foreign Relations Committee, the most powerful member of American

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Speaker 5: Congress in terms of crafting American foreign policy.

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Speaker 4: And a Democrat, which bears emphasizing in this moment.

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Speaker 5: He is one of the leaders, was one of the

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Speaker 5: leaders for a long time of the Democratic Party, and

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Speaker 5: as we also learned recently was secretly moonlighting, conspiring to

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Speaker 5: act as as the jury found and guilty of a

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Speaker 5: foreign agent for the military dictatorship in Egypt. He was

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Speaker 5: secretly lobbying his colleagues in the Senate, secretly ghost riding

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Speaker 5: on behalf of his patrons back in Cairo. And he

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Speaker 5: was the first American member of Congress to be convicted

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Speaker 5: on these charges and was recently sentenced, And if I

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Speaker 5: remember correctly, he is actually now in prison on a

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Speaker 5: very lengthy stay for again acting as secretly a foreign

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Speaker 5: lobbyist on behalf of not his constituents back in New Jersey,

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Speaker 5: but the military dictatorship back in Egypt. So again, this

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Speaker 5: is just all kind of a little bit of the

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Speaker 5: scope and scale of what we see on the foreign

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Speaker 5: lobbying side. Fast forward to where we are right now,

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Speaker 5: the current administration saying, no, we're not going to enforce

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Speaker 5: any of these foreign lobbying laws. We're only going to

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Speaker 5: target those that are engaged in traditional espionage. If a

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Speaker 5: foreign agent, a foreign lobbyist is somehow somewhere getting a

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Speaker 5: hold of classified information and sending it back to their

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Speaker 5: patrons and benefactors elsewhere, we will prosecute that but if

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Speaker 5: they're not disclosing who they're working for, if they're not

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Speaker 5: sharing with the American public who's actually paying them, we're

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Speaker 5: not going to prosecute that whatsoever. So it really seems like,

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Speaker 5: and again it's going to take years to really figure

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Speaker 5: out the breadth of this. Very much seems like we're

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Speaker 5: back in the golden era, back in a golden age

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Speaker 5: of these kind of foreign lobbying network being able to

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Speaker 5: operate in the shadows without the rest of us having

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Speaker 5: any idea what they're actually doing.

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Speaker 4: I wanted to ask you about what the state of

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Speaker 4: the influence industry in Washington is right now, because, on

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Speaker 4: one hand, and as you just referenced, there's tons of

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Speaker 4: money to be made from foreign governments seeking influence sway

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Speaker 4: access to the Trump administration. What I wonder though, is,

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Speaker 4: on the other hand, is the fact that the administration

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Speaker 4: is so shameless in some ways, or the fact that

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Speaker 4: Trump himself is such a you know, as has been

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Speaker 4: widely report, or it makes decisions based on who talks

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Speaker 4: to him most recently, who flatters him the most, whatever.

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Speaker 4: Does that make it harder for some of the traditional

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Speaker 4: levers of influence in Washington to do their work, because

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Speaker 4: I feel like they at least sell themselves as having

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Speaker 4: access that the average person doesn't have. But if you

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Speaker 4: can get access to the decider through Fox News, then

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Speaker 4: does that mean you don't need to hire Brownstein or whomever.

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Speaker 5: You know. It's funny, Adam, and far be it from

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Speaker 5: me to feel any kind of bad about any of

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Speaker 5: these figures. But yes, there was even through Trump's first

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Speaker 5: term and certainly well into the by and earra, there

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Speaker 5: was a playbook that they had followed for years and

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Speaker 5: years and years for decades, and it was an extension

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Speaker 5: of an outgrowth of what traditional lobbying for domestic causes

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Speaker 5: looked like. Right. It was the kind of the back

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Speaker 5: room conversations. It was having one on one meetings. It

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Speaker 5: was in some cases donating directly to a young a

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Speaker 5: member of Congresses, or even a presidential candidate's election or

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Speaker 5: re election campaigns. I mean again, it's there was no

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Speaker 5: real kind of secret sauce to any of it. It

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Speaker 5: was about who you knew and who you could access

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Speaker 5: and what kind of doors you could open. And now

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Speaker 5: what we see with Donald Trump's second term is that

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Speaker 5: that playbook certainly still exists. And of course much of

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Speaker 5: it does come down to, at the end of the day,

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Speaker 5: who these figures, knowing what doors they can open. But

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Speaker 5: the range of tactics and tools now available has just

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Speaker 5: been blown out of the water, you know. Again, to

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Speaker 5: get back to what we were talking about a few

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Speaker 5: moments ago, I never in a thousand years thought I

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Speaker 5: would ever see the day that a foreign regime, in

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Speaker 5: this case out of Katar, would be able to gift

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Speaker 5: a four hundred million dollar luxury liner a airplane to

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Speaker 5: a sitting president. And yet, and yet here we are.

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Speaker 5: I never thought I would see a world in which

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Speaker 5: a sitting president has direct access to not only the

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Speaker 5: so called coins, but of course is more than willing

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Speaker 5: and more than happy to host these effective pay to

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Speaker 5: play dinners for both Americans and non Americans alike those

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Speaker 5: who have given or invested the most amount of money

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Speaker 5: in a specific crypto venture. And of course I never

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Speaker 5: thought that I would actually see I should have had

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Speaker 5: an idea with Trump's first term, but I never thought

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Speaker 5: I would actually see the day where he's sitting president

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Speaker 5: has his real estate company gallivanting around the world and

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Speaker 5: signing up deals in dictatorship after dictatorship, foreign country after

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Speaker 5: form coach. I mean, this is all just unprecedented and

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Speaker 5: completely uncharted waters, as we talked about earlier, completely without

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Speaker 5: any kind of historic precedent. And I don't know how

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Speaker 5: traditional lobbying firms are adapting, but I do think it

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Speaker 5: is indicative that one of the key figures that has

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Speaker 5: opened up Donald Trump to the world of crypto and

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Speaker 5: crypto related investments is someone who emerged from that traditional

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Speaker 5: lobbying world, and that is our old friend Paul Manifort,

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Speaker 5: who was Donald Trump's first campaign manager and sixteen helped

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Speaker 5: launch into the presidency, eventually jailed on foreign lobbying charges

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Speaker 5: and then pardoned by Trump, and now in the last

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Speaker 5: year or two has emerged as this key player in

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Speaker 5: the crypto space that we know from other reporting, has

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Speaker 5: led Donald Trump directly into that space and of course

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Speaker 5: opened up all manner of new areas of influence. So

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Speaker 5: there's a man of fort is many things, but there

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Speaker 5: is a certain skill set that he brings to bear

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Speaker 5: in terms in terms of opening up avenues of influence.

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Speaker 4: What are the currencies of influence these days? You mentioned

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Speaker 4: crypto being a big one. You know, there's been some

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Speaker 4: reporting about you know, the Saudi government, among others, really

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Speaker 4: going all in on AI and data centers to woo

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Speaker 4: the administration and its tech oligarch backers. But what are

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Speaker 4: how are they? What are they trafficking in these days?

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Speaker 5: Well, I mean, look at the barest element of explanation

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Speaker 5: is money, right, It's it's whatever means of financing directly

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Speaker 5: into the American president's pocket, his family's pockets, his business pockets,

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Speaker 5: his allies pockets. It's whatever the vehicle of value is.

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Speaker 5: And if that's opening up a new resort in Vietnam,

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Speaker 5: Trump Resort in Vietnam, so be it. If that is

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Speaker 5: spending three hundred million dollars or investing three hundred million

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Speaker 5: dollars on a Trump meme coin so you can have

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Speaker 5: dinner with the president, so be it. If that is

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Speaker 5: an investment fund in the United Arab Emirates agreeing that

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Speaker 5: it will exchange or participate in exchanges using that Trump

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Speaker 5: meme coin or whatever the other crypto venture is, you know,

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Speaker 5: so be it. I mean, it's funny that you mentioned AI.

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Speaker 5: This is actually a space. I don't think it's gotten

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Speaker 5: nearly enough attention, but because of not only not only

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Speaker 5: the developments in the space, and of itself and the

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Speaker 5: implications of either domestic or especially foreign investment in artificial intelligence.

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Speaker 5: But it's a very clear direction that especially the Saudi's

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Speaker 5: and the Emordies have gone in. And I don't remember

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Speaker 5: the figure, I don't have the figures off the top

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Speaker 5: of my head, but the most recent visit from or

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Speaker 5: agreement between President Trump and golf partners, hundreds of millions

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Speaker 5: of dollars in golf investment in artificial intelligence, opening up

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Speaker 5: of data centers, and of course providing leverage from these

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Speaker 5: regimes themselves over whether it's American AI companies themselves or

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Speaker 5: American AI policy writ large. Again, there's no admiration whatsoever,

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Speaker 5: but you do have to comment on the relative savvy

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Speaker 5: I suppose of figures like NBS in Saudi Arabia or

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Speaker 5: NBZ in the United Arab Emirates, realizing which way the

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Speaker 5: wind is blowing, and of course realizing that they are

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Speaker 5: all manner of tech oligarchs surrounding Donald Trump and his

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Speaker 5: presidency and more than willing to back him come hell

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Speaker 5: or high water, and then opening up these new streams

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Speaker 5: of investment from these dictatorships elsewhere. I mean, look, it's

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Speaker 5: all it's one investment vehicle after another. And it's funny,

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Speaker 5: I will say, you know you and I are speaking

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Speaker 5: here on July twenty second, and just yesterday the administration

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Speaker 5: announced that it is going to be, you know, charitably

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Speaker 5: kicking the can down the road about new anti money

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Speaker 5: laundering rules and regulations for American private equity and venture

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Speaker 5: capital and hedge funds. These were anti minor learning policies

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Speaker 5: that were supposed to be implemented back in the early

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Speaker 5: two thousands, but because of a so called temporary loophole,

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Speaker 5: just have never been implemented. And the Biden administration announced

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Speaker 5: finally they were going to require these private investment funds

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Speaker 5: again that manage total trillions, if not tens of trillions

434
00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:30,960
Speaker 5: of dollars, to just check where that money is coming

435
00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:34,080
Speaker 5: from and flag any concerns for the American government, for

436
00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:38,080
Speaker 5: the federal government. What we saw yesterday is the new administration,

437
00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:40,560
Speaker 5: the Treasure Department announcing no, we're not going to pursue

438
00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:44,600
Speaker 5: those rules and regulations. We're going to open it up

439
00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:47,680
Speaker 5: for discussion. We're going to reconsider, and in the meantime,

440
00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:50,959
Speaker 5: all these private investment funds will be able to have

441
00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:54,000
Speaker 5: an absolute feast and open their doors to anyone and

442
00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:58,879
Speaker 5: everyone they want, foreign regimes, foreign oligarchs, proxies, what have you,

443
00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:01,639
Speaker 5: and acting all of that money and all of that

444
00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:05,320
Speaker 5: wealth into the American economy and throughout the American economy

445
00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:08,080
Speaker 5: without any kind of transparency, any kind of due diligence

446
00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:10,080
Speaker 5: in this whatsoever. And you know, we talked a moment

447
00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:14,800
Speaker 5: ago about Jared Kushner, and it's funny because you know,

448
00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:18,879
Speaker 5: he left the first administration without any private investment, private

449
00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:23,000
Speaker 5: equity experience whatsoever. He was a let's call it, struggling

450
00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:25,920
Speaker 5: real estate developer before he joined Trump's first White House.

451
00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:30,600
Speaker 5: And then he left and almost immediately began taking in

452
00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:33,440
Speaker 5: billions of dollars for his own private investment fund from

453
00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:37,720
Speaker 5: the Saudis, from the Emiraldis, from the Kataris, without any

454
00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:40,240
Speaker 5: kind of experience, any kind of reason to believe that

455
00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:43,119
Speaker 5: those investments would be successful in terms of returning capital

456
00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:47,720
Speaker 5: back to those regimes. But you know, I don't want

457
00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:50,120
Speaker 5: to cast dispersions, but it certainly looks like it's going

458
00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:52,600
Speaker 5: in one direction in terms of influence and in terms

459
00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:55,120
Speaker 5: of access to the man that is now the son

460
00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:57,280
Speaker 5: in law of the city President. And again that's just

461
00:25:57,320 --> 00:26:00,760
Speaker 5: one figure and one fund on the private investment site,

462
00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:04,359
Speaker 5: among a whole slew of others that are still open

463
00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:05,840
Speaker 5: and available to anyone and everyone.

464
00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:10,840
Speaker 4: It is remarkable how much money these regimes have access

465
00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:13,320
Speaker 4: to and how desperate they seem to be defined anywhere

466
00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:17,040
Speaker 4: to invest it. And most of it comes from oil,

467
00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:21,159
Speaker 4: which I think is not new in the sense that

468
00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:26,520
Speaker 4: it's not breaking news, but also bears emphasizing given some

469
00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:29,480
Speaker 4: of these regimes at the same time at least are

470
00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:35,720
Speaker 4: maintaining the facade of transitioning their economies and participating in

471
00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:40,480
Speaker 4: global climate negotiations, transitioning their economies away from oil. But

472
00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:43,880
Speaker 4: at the same time, all of this money is related

473
00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:48,159
Speaker 4: to the extraction and production of fossil fuels, and it

474
00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:51,520
Speaker 4: finally has somewhere to go. I'd be curious what you

475
00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:54,920
Speaker 4: think of this. It seems like any reason for which

476
00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:59,040
Speaker 4: a Western investor or investment fund manager might have had

477
00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:02,359
Speaker 4: for not a accepting that money, any any compunction, I

478
00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:04,719
Speaker 4: guess is the word no longer exists. Is that a

479
00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:08,119
Speaker 4: fair way to put it. There's really no shame associated

480
00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:09,560
Speaker 4: with taking that money anymore.

481
00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:12,920
Speaker 5: No, No, there's no shame. There's no compunction there's no reason,

482
00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:15,760
Speaker 5: and then there's no even structural incentive to say no,

483
00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:19,520
Speaker 5: not only because you know, you should have extremely minimal

484
00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:22,440
Speaker 5: concern about any kind of investigation or prosecution so long

485
00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:25,720
Speaker 5: as you remain in the current administration's good graces, but

486
00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:27,760
Speaker 5: also because you know if you if you do say no,

487
00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:31,000
Speaker 5: then your competitor down the street will say yes, or

488
00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:33,640
Speaker 5: if they don't say yes, and some other competitor will

489
00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:35,480
Speaker 5: end up opening their doors. And again, this is a

490
00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:38,080
Speaker 5: dynamic we have seen elsewhere. It's a dynamic that does

491
00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:40,200
Speaker 5: predate the current president. It's something that we saw in

492
00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:42,080
Speaker 5: the lobbying industry or at large. It's something that we

493
00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:46,119
Speaker 5: saw in the consulting industry, in particular in working with

494
00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:49,439
Speaker 5: regimes like Saudi Arabia. It's I know, you could you

495
00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:52,280
Speaker 5: can look at, you know, oil producing regime after oil

496
00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:54,399
Speaker 5: producing regime around the world. You can look at Russia,

497
00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:56,479
Speaker 5: you can look at Equatorial Guinea, you can look at Libya,

498
00:27:56,720 --> 00:27:59,080
Speaker 5: you can certainly look at Azerbaijan or Kazakhstan. But of

499
00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:01,439
Speaker 5: course the one that we mentioned already a few times

500
00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:05,960
Speaker 5: is Saudi Arabia. It is a breathtaking and I hope

501
00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:08,080
Speaker 5: there are multiple books coming out about it in the

502
00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:12,120
Speaker 5: very near future to see the scope and the breadth

503
00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:16,480
Speaker 5: of opportunities that Saudi Arabia's Sovereign Wealth Fund has opened

504
00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:18,800
Speaker 5: up for the regime, and of course almost all of

505
00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:20,560
Speaker 5: that money, if not all of it, coming from the

506
00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:26,880
Speaker 5: production of oil and the broader climate destruction therein. Because

507
00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:29,520
Speaker 5: it's funny, because if you go back to twenty eighteen,

508
00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:35,119
Speaker 5: twenty nineteen, after the assassination of the journalist Jamalkashoci, Saudi

509
00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:39,720
Speaker 5: Arabia and MBS in particular, they weren't exactly persona non grata,

510
00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:45,120
Speaker 5: but they were having lobbying clients, consulting clients, even investors

511
00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:47,560
Speaker 5: in Silicon Valley and elsewhere in the US turn them

512
00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:50,000
Speaker 5: away and turn them down and say we will not

513
00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:51,800
Speaker 5: have any business, we will not be seen to be

514
00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:54,600
Speaker 5: doing any business with this regime. And again, you want

515
00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:57,680
Speaker 5: to talk about the past being a foreign country, and

516
00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:01,680
Speaker 5: that was only six seven years ago. I can't even

517
00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:03,880
Speaker 5: fathom getting to that point again. I have no idea

518
00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:07,320
Speaker 5: that the Saudi regime would have to do to get

519
00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:10,800
Speaker 5: to that point once more, where American lobbying shops, American

520
00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:13,640
Speaker 5: investors are turning down Saudi money because you know, you

521
00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:19,400
Speaker 5: can just cast around the American economy, whether it's in Hollywood,

522
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:22,040
Speaker 5: whether it is in the sports industry, especially things like

523
00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:25,600
Speaker 5: golf or tennis or boxing. I'm sure at some point

524
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:27,760
Speaker 5: down the line, the NBA and the NFL will be

525
00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:31,000
Speaker 5: opening themselves up to Saudi money. I hope to god

526
00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:33,720
Speaker 5: it's not my beloved Portland Trailblazers who are currently for

527
00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:36,600
Speaker 5: sale and I live in dread that the Saudis will

528
00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:38,960
Speaker 5: be the one to purchase them, or or of course

529
00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:44,200
Speaker 5: again all of the image management shops or even things

530
00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:47,440
Speaker 5: like Twitter or x Right. You know, it's just a

531
00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:50,760
Speaker 5: bottomless list of industries that have opened themselves up to

532
00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:55,360
Speaker 5: investments from the regime or open themselves up to the

533
00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:58,160
Speaker 5: private investment the private equity, hedge fund and venture capital

534
00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:02,440
Speaker 5: firms that have opened themselves to with to Saudi financing itself.

535
00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:04,800
Speaker 5: And again it's not just Kushner, it's the Injuries and

536
00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:07,200
Speaker 5: Horowitzes of the world. I mean, it really is the

537
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:11,320
Speaker 5: biggest names across industry after industry that are now being

538
00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:14,520
Speaker 5: bankrolled directly by or at least indirectly via these private

539
00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:19,040
Speaker 5: investment funds. Saudi wealth, that oil money, that the Saudis

540
00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:20,720
Speaker 5: now have and I think they're going to pass the

541
00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:23,520
Speaker 5: one trillion mark shortly, if they haven't already for the

542
00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:25,880
Speaker 5: private investment fund. And again, this is just one regime

543
00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:29,520
Speaker 5: of many that are realizing. Oh, in the United States

544
00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:32,440
Speaker 5: of America, it is now the golden era of white

545
00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:36,200
Speaker 5: collar crime, right. The crime wave is here. It is

546
00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:39,640
Speaker 5: just white collar, as another writer, Jacob Silverman wrote in

547
00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:43,360
Speaker 5: his new book, and it's not going to end anytime soon.

548
00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:47,320
Speaker 4: That gets at the thing that seems most profound in

549
00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:50,280
Speaker 4: some ways. There's obviously the scale of the literal corruption

550
00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:53,240
Speaker 4: as we've talked about, but there's also just the sense

551
00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:55,360
Speaker 4: of shame that used to be associated with it. And

552
00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:58,400
Speaker 4: this comes to mind when you mentioned the years following

553
00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:01,040
Speaker 4: the murder of Jamal Kaschogi, and there was at least

554
00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:05,640
Speaker 4: a pretense that companies were turning away from doing business

555
00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:09,520
Speaker 4: with a regime that would murder journalists. That was, there

556
00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:12,400
Speaker 4: was always an element of performance there, because they were

557
00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:15,160
Speaker 4: clearly hungry for that money and got back in as

558
00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:18,960
Speaker 4: soon as they could. But what feels different about the

559
00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:21,680
Speaker 4: last certainly the last six months, but even the last

560
00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:26,200
Speaker 4: couple of years, is just how quickly that pretense has faded,

561
00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:28,680
Speaker 4: or at least the sense that they need to keep

562
00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:32,400
Speaker 4: up that performance, and there's just been sort of a

563
00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:36,040
Speaker 4: collective shrug in some ways because it's just too much,

564
00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:39,320
Speaker 4: And I wonder what you make of that.

565
00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:43,120
Speaker 5: You know, again, charitably, if you just pull back and

566
00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:46,800
Speaker 5: examine the kind of incentive structures that these firms, these

567
00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:51,160
Speaker 5: industries written large or are engaging in, you know, there

568
00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:55,240
Speaker 5: is a reality that if they have a fiduciary responsibility

569
00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:57,720
Speaker 5: to shareholders, or if they just have any kind of

570
00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:01,760
Speaker 5: general profit driven motive, yes, orls are great. But if

571
00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:03,560
Speaker 5: you're not committing any crime and you don't have to

572
00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:05,880
Speaker 5: be concerned about any prosecution, then all you're doing is

573
00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:09,440
Speaker 5: seeding ground to your competitors who have fewer scruples in you,

574
00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:11,480
Speaker 5: or maybe who knows, maybe they have just as many

575
00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:14,800
Speaker 5: scruples as you, but also can read the landscape and

576
00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:16,960
Speaker 5: realize that if they don't do this, they don't make

577
00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:20,880
Speaker 5: that kind of first mover step, then someone else will.

578
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:23,520
Speaker 5: And you know, you can look at this from a

579
00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:25,680
Speaker 5: lot of different different vantages. You can look at this

580
00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:29,280
Speaker 5: from the perspective of, you know, people who are hired

581
00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:33,320
Speaker 5: as as representatives of these regimes, saying, oh, you know,

582
00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:36,760
Speaker 5: I'm actually a good guy. I'm gonna put this money

583
00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:39,040
Speaker 5: to good use. And of course if I'm inside the

584
00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:41,160
Speaker 5: tent rather than outside, it can make more of a difference.

585
00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:44,440
Speaker 5: You can look at it geopolitically. I remember, of course,

586
00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:46,920
Speaker 5: I guess he was then a candidate, Joe Biden saying

587
00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:50,160
Speaker 5: we're going to make Saudi Arabia parian nation, pariah's status.

588
00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:53,040
Speaker 5: And it was what two months, three months in his

589
00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:56,160
Speaker 5: first term where he's there fist bumping MBS itself.

590
00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:57,680
Speaker 3: And asking for more oil production.

591
00:32:57,480 --> 00:32:59,840
Speaker 5: And asking from oil production. Of course, the American Saudi

592
00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:04,200
Speaker 5: partnership has decades and decades behind it at this point.

593
00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:06,480
Speaker 5: And I will say, you know, it's funny, and I

594
00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:08,160
Speaker 5: don't remember if we talked about this last time, but

595
00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:11,600
Speaker 5: there's a chapter of the book of the Foreign Agents

596
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:13,880
Speaker 5: Book which quotes one of these lobbyists from back in

597
00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:19,560
Speaker 5: the early nineteen nineties who was working for people like

598
00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:24,080
Speaker 5: Saddam Hussein or the vin dictator in places like Liberia,

599
00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:27,880
Speaker 5: I mean, truly the world's worst. And someone asked him

600
00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:29,959
Speaker 5: about it, you know, he said, well, look, it's at

601
00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:32,840
Speaker 5: the end of the day, it's just money and as

602
00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:36,720
Speaker 5: he said, shame is for sissies. That was his quote,

603
00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:38,760
Speaker 5: and that's what ended up being one of the chapter titles.

604
00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:42,120
Speaker 5: And I think that is an ethos that was maybe

605
00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:44,960
Speaker 5: a little ahead of its time, because that is certainly

606
00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:47,959
Speaker 5: something that we see every single day. I mean, there

607
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:52,400
Speaker 5: is no if there ever was space for or consideration

608
00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:57,320
Speaker 5: of something like shame every day. It appears an outdated

609
00:33:57,520 --> 00:34:02,560
Speaker 5: phenomenon and term. And that's too bad, because shame can

610
00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:04,600
Speaker 5: be a wonderful tool in the right hands.

611
00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:07,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, sometimes the only tool we have too.

612
00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:09,880
Speaker 5: Yeah, it is funny because this is what does The

613
00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:13,480
Speaker 5: kind of ethos of the first four lobbying regulations was, Look,

614
00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:15,160
Speaker 5: we're not going to ban this. This is all the

615
00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:17,760
Speaker 5: way back in the nineteen thirties when they were exposed

616
00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:20,480
Speaker 5: as working for the Nazis and the Soviets and Mussolini.

617
00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:23,640
Speaker 5: We can't ban this, but if we bring it to light,

618
00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:27,440
Speaker 5: bring some transparency, we can shame these Americans into no

619
00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:33,279
Speaker 5: longer working with these regimes. And rarely has that worked. Again,

620
00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:35,400
Speaker 5: It's one thing that's been very nice in theory, but

621
00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:37,680
Speaker 5: when you talk about the kind of money involved in practice,

622
00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:38,839
Speaker 5: it is very rare.

623
00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:42,279
Speaker 4: I wanted to ask you, and this might be a

624
00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:45,400
Speaker 4: hot take that's not worth taking, but it's not a

625
00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:47,680
Speaker 4: leading question. I'm genuinely curious what you think. If there's

626
00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:52,480
Speaker 4: anything to be celebrated is too strong of a word,

627
00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:55,840
Speaker 4: if there is a silver lining of some kind in

628
00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:58,520
Speaker 4: the sense that the Trump regime is doing a lot

629
00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:03,279
Speaker 4: of this stuff so clumsily and shamelessly and publicly, and

630
00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:05,000
Speaker 4: a lot of this stuff has been going on again

631
00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:07,759
Speaker 4: to a lesser extent, but as you've pointed out in

632
00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:10,920
Speaker 4: the book, and as we've talked about previously, has been

633
00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:13,840
Speaker 4: going on for decades. Just now it's happening in the

634
00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:17,759
Speaker 4: open because there's no sense of consequence or shame associated

635
00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:20,160
Speaker 4: with it. Is there anything to be celebrated about that

636
00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:24,400
Speaker 4: fact that people can actually see what's sort of always happened.

637
00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:26,960
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean the silver lining is it's impossible to

638
00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:30,520
Speaker 5: escape this. You cannot push it away, as there in

639
00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:33,600
Speaker 5: your news feed every single day. It is overwhelming, It

640
00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:37,560
Speaker 5: is breathtaking, and it forces you to consider, how is

641
00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:39,200
Speaker 5: it that this is happening? Why is it that this

642
00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:42,320
Speaker 5: is happening? And of course the secondary question is, okay, well,

643
00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:47,759
Speaker 5: if these policies were in place before Trump and he

644
00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:51,600
Speaker 5: can simply use them through his advantage or trample them underfoot.

645
00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:54,759
Speaker 5: What does that mean for a potential future administration if

646
00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:57,960
Speaker 5: we do want to shore up if we can possibly

647
00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:02,880
Speaker 5: shore up America's kind of anti corruption, counter cryptocracy regime itself.

648
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:05,399
Speaker 5: And it's funny because I'm working on. The next book

649
00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:07,120
Speaker 5: that I'm working on is looking at the rise of

650
00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:10,120
Speaker 5: this oligarchic class in the United States of America and

651
00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:12,840
Speaker 5: how that oligarchic class is transformed into not only threats

652
00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:16,360
Speaker 5: domestically in terms of American democracy, but also begun allying

653
00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:19,400
Speaker 5: with foreign regimes themselves that have no interest in restoring

654
00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:22,960
Speaker 5: things as simple as American democracy. And one of the

655
00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:24,600
Speaker 5: things that I'm hoping to do with this book is

656
00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:28,120
Speaker 5: examine the kind of lessons and the periods of previous

657
00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:32,320
Speaker 5: successful reforms. There's two primary ones. There's the nineteen hundred

658
00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:35,600
Speaker 5: and nineteen ten broader progressive era really linked to the

659
00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:39,440
Speaker 5: Teddy Roosevelt administration. There were other, of course, players involved,

660
00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:41,359
Speaker 5: and that was the aftermath of the Gilded Age, which

661
00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:43,560
Speaker 5: is the first kind of really true oligarchic class and

662
00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:45,800
Speaker 5: the kind of threats they are in and that resulted

663
00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:49,480
Speaker 5: in all kinds of things, right, successful prosecutions of course, antitrust,

664
00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:54,560
Speaker 5: mobilization and crackdowns, but also campaign finance reforms, because there's

665
00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:55,960
Speaker 5: one thing that we haven't talked about yet today, and

666
00:36:55,960 --> 00:36:59,319
Speaker 5: that's campaign finance and the role and legacy of things

667
00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:03,240
Speaker 5: like Citizens United in further distorting and in many ways

668
00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:06,840
Speaker 5: i mean degrading, maybe not quite destroying this to the

669
00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:10,040
Speaker 5: point yet American democracy, but really taking again a sledgehammer

670
00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:12,960
Speaker 5: to any kind of sanctity or sovereignty of American democracy.

671
00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:15,000
Speaker 5: You go back to the progressive era and minds of

672
00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:16,920
Speaker 5: lessons there. And then the other one we've already talked about,

673
00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:18,920
Speaker 5: which is the post Watergate era, and that was the

674
00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:22,520
Speaker 5: creation not only the FCPA, but even the Federal Election Commission,

675
00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:25,520
Speaker 5: which is again one of those things that on paper

676
00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:28,200
Speaker 5: it looks like it would have been fantastic but very

677
00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:30,320
Speaker 5: quickly fell apart. And what kind of lessons can we

678
00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:36,640
Speaker 5: mind therein So, yes, it's a silver lining. And it's

679
00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:39,279
Speaker 5: tough to see those silver linings when you're in the

680
00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:42,399
Speaker 5: middle of such a dark cloud as this one. But yeah,

681
00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:45,120
Speaker 5: if you get your binoculars and you appear pretty far,

682
00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:46,680
Speaker 5: sure you can see it out there.

683
00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:49,799
Speaker 4: One of the things we talked about last time was

684
00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:54,359
Speaker 4: the bipartisan history of foreign influence pedaling, and we had

685
00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:58,480
Speaker 4: talked about how weirdly one of the good, positive, small

686
00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:01,520
Speaker 4: baby steps that the Trump administration, the first one, had taken,

687
00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:07,480
Speaker 4: was requiring disclosure of foreign funding for US universities and

688
00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:10,120
Speaker 4: US think tanks, and how the Biden administration had essentially

689
00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:14,000
Speaker 4: stopped enforcing that. Have there been any developments on either

690
00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:18,160
Speaker 4: of those fronts since No.

691
00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:23,319
Speaker 5: Next question this is, Look, there's plenty of disappointing things

692
00:38:23,320 --> 00:38:25,319
Speaker 5: to see in the past few months, and one of

693
00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:28,040
Speaker 5: them is this inability to build on even these small

694
00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:31,319
Speaker 5: victories we have seen. No, there has not been any

695
00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:35,560
Speaker 5: progress in terms of think tank disclosure and in terms

696
00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:38,640
Speaker 5: of university disclosure. Not that that can't change. I wouldn't

697
00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:42,360
Speaker 5: be surprised if we see increasing investigations and transparency requirements

698
00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:45,880
Speaker 5: for American universities. Perhaps not for the best reasons, but

699
00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:48,239
Speaker 5: I don't know, because one of the things that the

700
00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:51,400
Speaker 5: Trump administration wants to do is completely abolished the Department

701
00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:54,040
Speaker 5: of Education, which is the one that houses all of

702
00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:57,000
Speaker 5: the transparency data about how American universities have been taking

703
00:38:57,080 --> 00:39:00,000
Speaker 5: in tens of millions, hundreds of millions in some cases

704
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:02,920
Speaker 5: billions of dollars from authoritarian regimes around the world in

705
00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:06,279
Speaker 5: terms of gifts and contracts, And if they eliminate the

706
00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:08,960
Speaker 5: Department of Education, then that goes out out the window.

707
00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:12,480
Speaker 5: So yeah, sorry, Adam, I don't have good news.

708
00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:17,480
Speaker 4: Well here's here's more shot at finding good news. Was

709
00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:20,719
Speaker 4: a headline or some reporting that the Wall Street Journal

710
00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:22,680
Speaker 4: has done over the last couple of months about the

711
00:39:22,719 --> 00:39:28,200
Speaker 4: General Services Administration, which, telling Lee is now run by

712
00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:33,319
Speaker 4: a former KKR private equity fund executive, but requiring or

713
00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:37,360
Speaker 4: demanding of consulting giants like McKinsey and BCG Etcenter, my

714
00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:41,760
Speaker 4: former employer Ey and others, to basically justify their huge

715
00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:45,360
Speaker 4: federal contracts. I wonder what you make of that effort,

716
00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:48,399
Speaker 4: whether it's sort of just a anti quote unquote woke,

717
00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:52,280
Speaker 4: anti DEI effort, or if it actually there's some substance

718
00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:57,160
Speaker 4: to telling consulting firms to justify these billions of dollars

719
00:39:57,160 --> 00:39:59,080
Speaker 4: worth of taxpayer contracts.

720
00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:02,880
Speaker 5: I I would think that if anyone is well placed

721
00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:05,120
Speaker 5: to justify billions of dollars of contracts, it would be

722
00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:08,399
Speaker 5: these consulting firms. They'll find a way, they'll they'll find

723
00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:11,480
Speaker 5: a way. Of course, in theory, there's there's nothing wrong.

724
00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:15,399
Speaker 5: It's it's like the it's like doge right. In theory, yes,

725
00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:18,200
Speaker 5: of course we should root out fraud and waste and abuse.

726
00:40:18,239 --> 00:40:20,400
Speaker 5: And yes, of course American tax paid dollars should be

727
00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:22,120
Speaker 5: used for the you know, to the to the first

728
00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:24,560
Speaker 5: this extent they can for the for the minimum amount.

729
00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:27,000
Speaker 5: But that's all fine in theory, of course, saying this

730
00:40:27,080 --> 00:40:30,840
Speaker 5: in practice for reasons that maybe they stem from DEI

731
00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:35,239
Speaker 5: considerations and quote unquote anti Wote considerations. Maybe there was

732
00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:40,160
Speaker 5: just someone at BCG or McKenzie or whomever that caught

733
00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:42,080
Speaker 5: the eye of someone who has Trump's ear. Like I,

734
00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:46,240
Speaker 5: I don't know what is actually leading this this push itself.

735
00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:48,680
Speaker 5: I mean, I will say, of course I have no

736
00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:51,640
Speaker 5: love lost for any of these firms, many of these firms,

737
00:40:51,640 --> 00:40:54,000
Speaker 5: maybe a few, maybe a few of them. And again,

738
00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:55,520
Speaker 5: something you and I have talked about in the past

739
00:40:56,320 --> 00:41:00,360
Speaker 5: is how many of these firms McKenzie, t Enao, Boston

740
00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:05,640
Speaker 5: Consulting Group have worked for regimes like Saudi Arabia and again,

741
00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:07,920
Speaker 5: open up the US to any number all manner of

742
00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:11,200
Speaker 5: Saudi influence as well as plenty of other regimes around

743
00:41:11,239 --> 00:41:13,880
Speaker 5: the world, and the one that comes to mind recently,

744
00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:16,399
Speaker 5: and it was the Financial Times that did this great

745
00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:19,440
Speaker 5: reporting on how Boston Consulting Group had been involved, or

746
00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:21,560
Speaker 5: at least a number of senior partners have been involved

747
00:41:21,680 --> 00:41:28,360
Speaker 5: in euphemistically creating exit packages for Palestinians from Gaza to

748
00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:35,279
Speaker 5: effectively whitewash Israeli ethnic cleansing campaigns. So no, I when

749
00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:37,520
Speaker 5: it comes to the Trump administration in some of these

750
00:41:37,560 --> 00:41:40,919
Speaker 5: consulting firms, please don't ask me who I'm rooting for. Yeah,

751
00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:42,240
Speaker 5: but we'll see what comes.

752
00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:44,839
Speaker 4: I suspect they'll all find a way to win at

753
00:41:44,880 --> 00:41:47,359
Speaker 4: everyone else's expense as they as they typically do.

754
00:41:47,640 --> 00:41:49,120
Speaker 5: Yes, I think that's fine.

755
00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:54,279
Speaker 4: The BCG in Gaza contracts were so revealing in the

756
00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:57,120
Speaker 4: sense that one of the things you talk about in

757
00:41:57,160 --> 00:42:00,560
Speaker 4: your book Foreign Agents, is the work that Ivy Lee,

758
00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:03,799
Speaker 4: the quote unquote father of public relations, did for the

759
00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:08,360
Speaker 4: Nazi regime, And you can draw a direct line from

760
00:42:08,640 --> 00:42:11,600
Speaker 4: that type of work in the nineteen thirties to the

761
00:42:11,640 --> 00:42:16,280
Speaker 4: type of work that BCG has been reportedly doing in

762
00:42:16,320 --> 00:42:20,080
Speaker 4: the twenty twenties. And it's the same playbook with different

763
00:42:20,080 --> 00:42:21,760
Speaker 4: actors different sums of money.

764
00:42:21,960 --> 00:42:24,560
Speaker 5: Yeah, you know, as Ivy Lee saw it, Adolf Hitler

765
00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:27,239
Speaker 5: was bringing stability to one of the key economic and

766
00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:33,520
Speaker 5: national well nations in Europe. He was a bulwark against

767
00:42:33,560 --> 00:42:37,759
Speaker 5: far left communism emanating from the Soviet Union. And at

768
00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:39,600
Speaker 5: the end of the day, if the Americans didn't partner

769
00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:42,480
Speaker 5: with him, then other regimes who are maybe opposed to

770
00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:44,879
Speaker 5: American interests would partner with him. And don't we want

771
00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:47,160
Speaker 5: to get in on the ground floor. Don't we want

772
00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:49,719
Speaker 5: to at least hear what he has to say. And yes,

773
00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:51,879
Speaker 5: maybe he has his foibles, and maybe there are some

774
00:42:51,920 --> 00:42:54,920
Speaker 5: concerns about what's happening domestically, but look, a lot of

775
00:42:54,920 --> 00:42:56,880
Speaker 5: that is just rhetoric. We don't really need to be

776
00:42:56,920 --> 00:42:59,640
Speaker 5: concerned about what Adolf Hitler is doing in Germany or

777
00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:04,960
Speaker 5: in Europe. And you can find a way to justify

778
00:43:05,239 --> 00:43:07,480
Speaker 5: if you want, and certainly if you are being paid,

779
00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:11,120
Speaker 5: you can find a way to justify almost anything. And

780
00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:14,399
Speaker 5: it has been remarkable to watch Boston Consulting Group try

781
00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:20,080
Speaker 5: to scramble to explain away how multiple senior partners were

782
00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:24,160
Speaker 5: involved in ethnic cleansing, or green lighting ethnic cleansing, or

783
00:43:24,200 --> 00:43:27,480
Speaker 5: spinning ethnic cleansing, and it's just a very short step

784
00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:30,000
Speaker 5: from there to outright genocide. And I have no doubt

785
00:43:30,040 --> 00:43:32,719
Speaker 5: that there are at least some folks in some of

786
00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:35,520
Speaker 5: these firms that have already considered what are the best

787
00:43:35,560 --> 00:43:39,600
Speaker 5: talking points if we do see a genocide or emerge

788
00:43:39,600 --> 00:43:42,560
Speaker 5: wherever it is right, whether it's in Palaesinon or Meanmar

789
00:43:42,719 --> 00:43:45,360
Speaker 5: or Sudan, there's money to be made, and if we

790
00:43:45,360 --> 00:43:48,319
Speaker 5: don't make it, our competitors will. And at the end

791
00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:50,840
Speaker 5: of the day, who needs shame anywhere.

792
00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:53,600
Speaker 4: There was a pattern that played out during the first

793
00:43:53,600 --> 00:43:59,080
Speaker 4: Trump administration of because Trump and his administration were so

794
00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:07,920
Speaker 4: you know, corrupt, outrageous, offensive, crude, that companies could essentially

795
00:44:07,960 --> 00:44:12,400
Speaker 4: step into the breach and be the benevolent, sane, competent

796
00:44:12,920 --> 00:44:16,120
Speaker 4: actors in society. That was I think part of what

797
00:44:16,200 --> 00:44:20,280
Speaker 4: drove the rise of so called ESG and corporate sustainability

798
00:44:20,280 --> 00:44:23,440
Speaker 4: and all this stuff, which is has been a trend.

799
00:44:23,719 --> 00:44:26,120
Speaker 4: That was not the first time companies had pretended to

800
00:44:26,120 --> 00:44:27,640
Speaker 4: save the world. They tend to do this when they're

801
00:44:27,680 --> 00:44:30,440
Speaker 4: facing a lot of backlash. And I wonder if you've

802
00:44:30,480 --> 00:44:34,960
Speaker 4: seen that same pattern play out again this time if

803
00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:38,040
Speaker 4: they're trying to step in and say, you know, he's

804
00:44:38,080 --> 00:44:40,040
Speaker 4: off the rails, but we got this, or if they're

805
00:44:40,040 --> 00:44:41,920
Speaker 4: more like we're just going to ride that wave and

806
00:44:42,360 --> 00:44:44,160
Speaker 4: cash in, well, I.

807
00:44:44,560 --> 00:44:46,440
Speaker 5: Mean, I guess I'm be keen for your perspective. I

808
00:44:46,480 --> 00:44:48,640
Speaker 5: certainly haven't seen any indication of that. And again, I

809
00:44:48,640 --> 00:44:52,919
Speaker 5: think it's multifold. One, we are only six months into

810
00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:55,200
Speaker 5: the new administration. Who knows where we'll be a year

811
00:44:55,239 --> 00:44:57,880
Speaker 5: from now, who knows what will happen after the terms,

812
00:44:58,280 --> 00:44:59,719
Speaker 5: and of course who knows what will actually be taking

813
00:44:59,719 --> 00:45:03,040
Speaker 5: place the final year of this second term. And two,

814
00:45:03,080 --> 00:45:06,440
Speaker 5: we've seen how aggressive the current administration is about swatting

815
00:45:06,480 --> 00:45:08,839
Speaker 5: down or suffocating or whatever term you'd like to use

816
00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:12,920
Speaker 5: private interest that may be opposed to the current administration

817
00:45:13,120 --> 00:45:16,319
Speaker 5: using the power of the state to specifically target any

818
00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:21,759
Speaker 5: in all private organizations, maybe most spectacularly in media with

819
00:45:22,120 --> 00:45:26,880
Speaker 5: paramount in the ABC settlements, that would even think about

820
00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:29,960
Speaker 5: speaking out about the current administration. I Adam, what do

821
00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:31,479
Speaker 5: you have any thoughts on this? Yeah?

822
00:45:31,480 --> 00:45:33,680
Speaker 4: I mean I don't have a more optimistic take, that's

823
00:45:33,719 --> 00:45:36,560
Speaker 4: for sure. It does feel like they got their tax

824
00:45:36,600 --> 00:45:39,960
Speaker 4: cut in twenty seventeen. End of twenty seventeen, so they

825
00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:42,120
Speaker 4: kind of got what they wanted from the administration, and

826
00:45:42,160 --> 00:45:44,319
Speaker 4: then those next couple of years it was kind of

827
00:45:45,320 --> 00:45:48,440
Speaker 4: it seemed like they either saw an opportunity or felt

828
00:45:48,480 --> 00:45:51,279
Speaker 4: an obligation to at least pretend that they were the

829
00:45:51,520 --> 00:45:54,640
Speaker 4: adults in the room. They were the serious people when

830
00:45:54,640 --> 00:45:57,040
Speaker 4: Trump was off the rails, even if they shared ultimately

831
00:45:57,040 --> 00:45:59,600
Speaker 4: the same economic goals. And I agree, now it feels

832
00:45:59,680 --> 00:46:02,719
Speaker 4: like either they're too afraid to do that, but I

833
00:46:02,719 --> 00:46:05,640
Speaker 4: think more realistically they're not interested in doing that performance

834
00:46:05,640 --> 00:46:07,680
Speaker 4: anymore because they feel like they don't have to.

835
00:46:08,080 --> 00:46:10,880
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, I mean, look, you know, the big beautiful

836
00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:12,799
Speaker 5: bill just passed a few weeks ago. Of course, those

837
00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:14,800
Speaker 5: many of those tax cuts we saw in twenty seventeen

838
00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:17,160
Speaker 5: or are now permanent, you know, again at a very

839
00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:19,200
Speaker 5: what we were talking about earlier, maybe a macro level.

840
00:46:19,239 --> 00:46:20,960
Speaker 5: Right there is no concern about any kind of white

841
00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:24,239
Speaker 5: collar prosecution. There's no concern about any fraud prosecution. There's

842
00:46:24,280 --> 00:46:26,799
Speaker 5: no concern about of course, foreign bribery prosecution. I mean,

843
00:46:26,800 --> 00:46:29,960
Speaker 5: and again, white collar crime is wide open right now

844
00:46:29,960 --> 00:46:31,520
Speaker 5: as long as you stay in the good graces of

845
00:46:31,560 --> 00:46:35,160
Speaker 5: the administration. You know, the only time that we saw

846
00:46:35,239 --> 00:46:38,720
Speaker 5: any kind of outspoken concerns from leaders within the private

847
00:46:39,160 --> 00:46:41,239
Speaker 5: industry space was after the think I guess it was

848
00:46:41,480 --> 00:46:44,400
Speaker 5: in April, if I remember correctly. The first was it

849
00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:47,000
Speaker 5: Liberation date? Right, the announcement of what these tariffs were

850
00:46:47,000 --> 00:46:48,640
Speaker 5: going to look like, and of course the shutter that

851
00:46:48,640 --> 00:46:52,279
Speaker 5: that's sent through private industry that did become more outspoken

852
00:46:52,280 --> 00:46:55,279
Speaker 5: about their concerns about what the administration was doing. And

853
00:46:55,680 --> 00:46:57,520
Speaker 5: I wonder if they can argue to themselves that it

854
00:46:57,520 --> 00:46:59,719
Speaker 5: seems like, oh okay, it was those concerns that that

855
00:46:59,760 --> 00:47:02,320
Speaker 5: put these tariffs kind of off into the future, and

856
00:47:02,640 --> 00:47:05,880
Speaker 5: we were able to sway President Trump. As far as

857
00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:07,879
Speaker 5: I could tell, it was just the bond markets, as

858
00:47:07,880 --> 00:47:10,440
Speaker 5: Trump said, getting jumpy or yippy, whatever the term was,

859
00:47:10,840 --> 00:47:14,760
Speaker 5: that dissuaded him. And clearly tariffs, at least the discussion

860
00:47:14,760 --> 00:47:17,480
Speaker 5: of them, have not gone anywhere. Every single day it

861
00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:19,600
Speaker 5: seems like there's a new proposal, there's a new announcement,

862
00:47:19,600 --> 00:47:22,160
Speaker 5: there's a new postponement, so on and so forth. And

863
00:47:22,400 --> 00:47:26,080
Speaker 5: I know, of course, I don't know how all this

864
00:47:26,120 --> 00:47:28,200
Speaker 5: is going to end, but I especially don't know if

865
00:47:28,320 --> 00:47:30,880
Speaker 5: or what a breaking point would look like for private

866
00:47:30,880 --> 00:47:33,719
Speaker 5: industry regarding at least the terror of conversation, and I

867
00:47:33,840 --> 00:47:36,920
Speaker 5: don't know if there is one, given how the administration

868
00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:38,360
Speaker 5: has used the power of the state thus far to

869
00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:39,480
Speaker 5: target its opponents.

870
00:47:39,800 --> 00:47:42,279
Speaker 4: And it's not like there aren't opportunities in tariffs to

871
00:47:42,680 --> 00:47:45,719
Speaker 4: raise prices. We saw that almost immediately, where you know,

872
00:47:45,760 --> 00:47:48,239
Speaker 4: even before tarists had taken effect or on industries that

873
00:47:48,239 --> 00:47:50,960
Speaker 4: weren't affected by it, they were saying, we have to

874
00:47:51,120 --> 00:47:53,799
Speaker 4: raise our prices because the tariffs. And it's sort of

875
00:47:53,840 --> 00:47:56,319
Speaker 4: like what they did with inflation a couple of years ago,

876
00:47:56,480 --> 00:47:58,360
Speaker 4: where you know, it's an opportunity to get away with

877
00:47:58,360 --> 00:47:59,200
Speaker 4: price increases.

878
00:47:59,280 --> 00:48:02,120
Speaker 5: At the very least, it degrades quality of life for

879
00:48:02,160 --> 00:48:04,080
Speaker 5: the rest of us. It makes things harder, makes things

880
00:48:04,080 --> 00:48:08,440
Speaker 5: more expensive. And if Trump, being the political savant that

881
00:48:08,520 --> 00:48:11,560
Speaker 5: he has apparently been over the last decade, is able

882
00:48:11,600 --> 00:48:15,719
Speaker 5: to distance himself sufficiently from those price increases and for

883
00:48:15,760 --> 00:48:18,799
Speaker 5: goods and services, I wouldn't put it past him. And

884
00:48:18,840 --> 00:48:22,120
Speaker 5: of course, if private industry is not unified in speaking out,

885
00:48:22,200 --> 00:48:25,279
Speaker 5: or at least sufficiently unified speaking out against this, I

886
00:48:25,360 --> 00:48:27,520
Speaker 5: look I look forward to decades of decline with you,

887
00:48:27,560 --> 00:48:32,600
Speaker 5: Adam and commiserating over silver lining, but can't quite get it. Boy,

888
00:48:32,719 --> 00:48:34,960
Speaker 5: that was a depressing comment. I'm sorry.

889
00:48:35,480 --> 00:48:38,120
Speaker 4: I mean it's it's realistic and actually related to that,

890
00:48:38,160 --> 00:48:40,480
Speaker 4: I want to ask you how you are you're sort

891
00:48:40,480 --> 00:48:44,680
Speaker 4: of personally as a human being covering this stuff right now,

892
00:48:44,760 --> 00:48:48,080
Speaker 4: how you are processing this time and history on.

893
00:48:48,160 --> 00:48:52,000
Speaker 5: My most optimistic days. It is what we were talking

894
00:48:52,000 --> 00:48:56,040
Speaker 5: about earlier, trying to convince myself that this is a

895
00:48:56,080 --> 00:48:58,440
Speaker 5: period similar to what we saw in the eighteen eighties,

896
00:48:58,440 --> 00:49:01,080
Speaker 5: eighteen nineties, and similar what we saw in the late

897
00:49:01,120 --> 00:49:04,799
Speaker 5: nineteen sixties early nineteen seventies in terms of not only

898
00:49:04,840 --> 00:49:09,359
Speaker 5: things like wealth inequality or corporates sway and lording over

899
00:49:09,400 --> 00:49:11,960
Speaker 5: American politics, but of course abuse of power, especially out

900
00:49:11,960 --> 00:49:14,760
Speaker 5: of the executive office itself. And now no historic parallel

901
00:49:14,840 --> 00:49:17,880
Speaker 5: is it's exactly parallel. Of course, this era is completely

902
00:49:17,880 --> 00:49:19,920
Speaker 5: different in so many ways. But it is trying to

903
00:49:19,960 --> 00:49:24,960
Speaker 5: find a historic resonance that gives me reason to believe

904
00:49:25,000 --> 00:49:28,239
Speaker 5: that there is to use an overused image, a pendulum

905
00:49:28,280 --> 00:49:30,799
Speaker 5: swing in the offing coming in the near future, and

906
00:49:30,880 --> 00:49:35,520
Speaker 5: on my most optimistic days, that is what I like

907
00:49:35,600 --> 00:49:36,800
Speaker 5: to consider, and of course it is going to be

908
00:49:36,840 --> 00:49:39,040
Speaker 5: part of the book itself now on my most pessimistic days,

909
00:49:39,440 --> 00:49:41,560
Speaker 5: it is simply the reality and the notion that all

910
00:49:41,680 --> 00:49:46,080
Speaker 5: empires fall, and the United States of America has always

911
00:49:46,080 --> 00:49:48,080
Speaker 5: been and continues to be an empire in some cases

912
00:49:48,120 --> 00:49:51,320
Speaker 5: in the most literal sense, with any number of territories

913
00:49:51,360 --> 00:49:53,560
Speaker 5: that we still have not yet elevated to its statehood.

914
00:49:53,880 --> 00:49:59,200
Speaker 5: But of course, the kind of entangling of corporate finance

915
00:49:59,600 --> 00:50:03,440
Speaker 5: within American elections, in American campaigns, and the reduction of

916
00:50:03,480 --> 00:50:07,080
Speaker 5: any kind of American democratic input from American voters in

917
00:50:07,120 --> 00:50:09,640
Speaker 5: the American populace. And this isn't even considering things like

918
00:50:09,680 --> 00:50:12,759
Speaker 5: the fiscal crisis that is now even further staring us

919
00:50:12,760 --> 00:50:14,480
Speaker 5: down the pipeline at some point in the not too

920
00:50:14,560 --> 00:50:19,040
Speaker 5: distant future. So I swing between those depending on the day.

921
00:50:19,880 --> 00:50:21,879
Speaker 5: And I know we talked about media diet a little

922
00:50:21,880 --> 00:50:23,520
Speaker 5: bit off the mic, but I will say one thing

923
00:50:23,520 --> 00:50:25,520
Speaker 5: that gets me through this. You can see a stack

924
00:50:25,560 --> 00:50:29,080
Speaker 5: of Batman comics behind me that always help. But also

925
00:50:29,239 --> 00:50:31,000
Speaker 5: just reading widely on things that have nothing to do

926
00:50:31,120 --> 00:50:33,200
Speaker 5: with American history, or in some cases nothing to do

927
00:50:33,239 --> 00:50:36,600
Speaker 5: with history whatsoever. It is you got to have those

928
00:50:36,600 --> 00:50:39,040
Speaker 5: mental health breaks. You can just be following the news

929
00:50:39,080 --> 00:50:42,080
Speaker 5: all day long, or you'd probably die.

930
00:50:42,320 --> 00:50:44,640
Speaker 4: It's a I mean, I too, am finding a lot

931
00:50:44,640 --> 00:50:49,560
Speaker 4: of solace in books and specifically almost less the subject

932
00:50:49,640 --> 00:50:53,720
Speaker 4: matter in some cases, and more the analog print book,

933
00:50:53,760 --> 00:50:56,160
Speaker 4: where there are no links, there are no ads, there's

934
00:50:56,160 --> 00:50:59,480
Speaker 4: no breaking news. I know, it wasn't written by an algorithm.

935
00:51:00,280 --> 00:51:05,239
Speaker 4: There's sort of a hard separation from the reality of

936
00:51:05,239 --> 00:51:07,759
Speaker 4: the world. And I will actually say the version of

937
00:51:07,760 --> 00:51:10,759
Speaker 4: the world that comes through the media is not the

938
00:51:10,800 --> 00:51:14,080
Speaker 4: whole reality. This is not some you know, raging against

939
00:51:14,080 --> 00:51:16,719
Speaker 4: the fake news media or whatever. But there is a

940
00:51:16,880 --> 00:51:20,879
Speaker 4: you know, obviously an algorithmic bias toward outrage, and there

941
00:51:20,960 --> 00:51:24,480
Speaker 4: is a rebalancing. I feel like, whether it's a graphic

942
00:51:24,520 --> 00:51:28,160
Speaker 4: novel or a comic or just a print book, that

943
00:51:28,160 --> 00:51:29,799
Speaker 4: that helps me reset a little bit.

944
00:51:30,160 --> 00:51:33,160
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, you're absolutely right. Look, I'm gonna put

945
00:51:33,200 --> 00:51:33,720
Speaker 5: my old.

946
00:51:33,560 --> 00:51:35,279
Speaker 3: Man hat on and that's my favorite hat.

947
00:51:35,320 --> 00:51:37,480
Speaker 5: That. Yeah, I have to read analog books, right, I

948
00:51:37,560 --> 00:51:39,920
Speaker 5: mean I I don't have a kindle, I don't have

949
00:51:39,920 --> 00:51:41,440
Speaker 5: a nook, right, I have a pen and I have

950
00:51:41,560 --> 00:51:44,600
Speaker 5: I have my book and that's and that's how we're doing.

951
00:51:44,640 --> 00:51:45,959
Speaker 5: Of course, this is one of the benefits of reading

952
00:51:46,000 --> 00:51:48,279
Speaker 5: history is realizing that, oh, you know, the sky has

953
00:51:48,280 --> 00:51:51,799
Speaker 5: been falling for every nation for centuries, from millennia so

954
00:51:51,880 --> 00:51:54,359
Speaker 5: on and so on and so on, and who knows,

955
00:51:54,360 --> 00:51:56,080
Speaker 5: maybe we'll get through this or maybe we won't, but

956
00:51:56,520 --> 00:52:00,239
Speaker 5: much of it is beyond our control. And you know,

957
00:52:00,280 --> 00:52:01,920
Speaker 5: you try to do your good work where you can.

958
00:52:01,960 --> 00:52:03,520
Speaker 5: You try to make a difference with where you can,

959
00:52:03,800 --> 00:52:05,279
Speaker 5: and you try to spend time with people that you

960
00:52:05,320 --> 00:52:07,440
Speaker 5: care about and who care about you. In turn, let

961
00:52:07,440 --> 00:52:10,000
Speaker 5: me ask you, Adam, have you read any good books recently,

962
00:52:10,040 --> 00:52:11,160
Speaker 5: either of fiction non fiction.

963
00:52:11,640 --> 00:52:14,040
Speaker 4: I have read lots of good books. I was actually

964
00:52:14,080 --> 00:52:17,839
Speaker 4: rereading just the other day, There Are No Children Here

965
00:52:17,920 --> 00:52:19,080
Speaker 4: by Alex Kotlowitz.

966
00:52:19,440 --> 00:52:22,160
Speaker 5: Sure, yeah, it's a I've not read that one, but yeah,

967
00:52:22,320 --> 00:52:22,960
Speaker 5: I'm familiar.

968
00:52:23,320 --> 00:52:26,960
Speaker 4: I think it came out in nineteen ninety one. But Coolowitz,

969
00:52:27,000 --> 00:52:28,840
Speaker 4: who I believe is still doing this kind of journalism,

970
00:52:29,120 --> 00:52:31,080
Speaker 4: was living or spending a lot of time with the

971
00:52:31,120 --> 00:52:33,759
Speaker 4: family in a housing project in Chicago in the late

972
00:52:33,800 --> 00:52:37,840
Speaker 4: eighties and basically following these two brothers and their family

973
00:52:38,880 --> 00:52:41,279
Speaker 4: over a few years and just documenting what happens in

974
00:52:41,320 --> 00:52:44,359
Speaker 4: their lives. And I'd read it before, but it hits

975
00:52:44,360 --> 00:52:47,000
Speaker 4: a little differently now. I guess every book, you know,

976
00:52:47,320 --> 00:52:49,160
Speaker 4: if you reread something, it's always going to hit a

977
00:52:49,160 --> 00:52:52,680
Speaker 4: little bit differently. Yeah, but it's I'm definitely finding myself

978
00:52:52,800 --> 00:52:57,360
Speaker 4: drawn to books that were written kind of pre twenty tens,

979
00:52:58,120 --> 00:53:01,360
Speaker 4: and just because the world that they capture is so

980
00:53:02,000 --> 00:53:04,920
Speaker 4: it's not entirely analog, obviously, but compared to where we

981
00:53:04,920 --> 00:53:08,000
Speaker 4: are right now, it was just moving at a different speed.

982
00:53:08,400 --> 00:53:11,040
Speaker 4: And maybe that's just because a millennial. Of course, I'm

983
00:53:11,080 --> 00:53:14,759
Speaker 4: drawn to the nineties and early two thousands, but it's

984
00:53:14,960 --> 00:53:18,040
Speaker 4: it's been a good balance for my normal fiction diet

985
00:53:18,160 --> 00:53:21,080
Speaker 4: of like dystopian cli fi, which I'm having a harder

986
00:53:21,160 --> 00:53:22,680
Speaker 4: time reading these days.

987
00:53:22,840 --> 00:53:25,520
Speaker 5: I recently read in terms of dyscope, it's not quite

988
00:53:25,560 --> 00:53:28,839
Speaker 5: cli fi. I'm assuming that means climate fiction. I guess

989
00:53:28,840 --> 00:53:31,439
Speaker 5: I haven't heard that ten before. There was a book

990
00:53:31,480 --> 00:53:34,120
Speaker 5: came out a few years ago called Prophet Song set

991
00:53:34,120 --> 00:53:38,719
Speaker 5: in a near future dystopian civil war autocratic Ireland, and

992
00:53:38,760 --> 00:53:41,400
Speaker 5: the kind of drivers for that and what it means,

993
00:53:41,480 --> 00:53:44,719
Speaker 5: what it takes for one family to survive. And again

994
00:53:44,840 --> 00:53:48,600
Speaker 5: it's those perspectives to realize, oh, well, we're not quite

995
00:53:48,640 --> 00:53:51,600
Speaker 5: there yet, so maybe things aren't all horrible, all terrible

996
00:53:51,680 --> 00:53:54,719
Speaker 5: all the time. Yes, mining it is funny because you know,

997
00:53:54,800 --> 00:53:56,680
Speaker 5: mining those books and from the eighties and nineties and

998
00:53:56,719 --> 00:54:00,640
Speaker 5: the two thousands before the kind of efflorescence of smartphones

999
00:54:00,680 --> 00:54:03,200
Speaker 5: and all internet all the time, and of course now

1000
00:54:04,120 --> 00:54:07,440
Speaker 5: all apps all the time. It really is in many ways,

1001
00:54:07,440 --> 00:54:10,920
Speaker 5: like visiting a foreign land, similar themes, similar topics in

1002
00:54:10,920 --> 00:54:13,839
Speaker 5: some cases, similar figures and forces in some cases, which

1003
00:54:13,840 --> 00:54:17,799
Speaker 5: it led directly to where we are now. But revisiting that,

1004
00:54:17,920 --> 00:54:21,000
Speaker 5: relearning that, and re examining what that era held, and

1005
00:54:21,040 --> 00:54:24,120
Speaker 5: storing what we're right around the corner, of course, is

1006
00:54:25,080 --> 00:54:28,040
Speaker 5: maybe more important now than ever, maybe growing importance every day,

1007
00:54:28,120 --> 00:54:30,080
Speaker 5: or at least maybe it's just something to keep us

1008
00:54:30,120 --> 00:54:31,920
Speaker 5: busy between doom school.

1009
00:54:32,520 --> 00:54:35,800
Speaker 4: All possibilities and all valuable ones. And I wish we

1010
00:54:35,880 --> 00:54:38,880
Speaker 4: had less to talk about, but here we are. I

1011
00:54:38,880 --> 00:54:42,839
Speaker 4: am grateful for your work and your sense making of

1012
00:54:42,920 --> 00:54:46,400
Speaker 4: everything happening these days. And I'm glad you've kept the

1013
00:54:46,440 --> 00:54:48,680
Speaker 4: faith and kept the strength to keep doing this stuff,

1014
00:54:48,680 --> 00:54:51,400
Speaker 4: because it is important, even when it feels like the

1015
00:54:51,440 --> 00:54:55,280
Speaker 4: stuff that you and I talk about human rights, democracy, corruption,

1016
00:54:55,600 --> 00:55:00,280
Speaker 4: don't you know not at the top of the Project

1017
00:55:00,320 --> 00:55:02,640
Speaker 4: twenty twenty five, let's say, well.

1018
00:55:02,400 --> 00:55:06,120
Speaker 5: To quote one of my favorite Batman movies, Adam, the

1019
00:55:06,239 --> 00:55:11,520
Speaker 5: night is the darkest just before the dawn. And maybe

1020
00:55:11,520 --> 00:55:13,279
Speaker 5: it's not as dark as we can see. Maybe things

1021
00:55:13,280 --> 00:55:15,799
Speaker 5: will get darker, yet I suspect they probably will, and

1022
00:55:15,840 --> 00:55:19,160
Speaker 5: I certainly hope that there is a dawn coming at

1023
00:55:19,160 --> 00:55:22,520
Speaker 5: some point, or at the bare minimum, you and I

1024
00:55:22,600 --> 00:55:24,839
Speaker 5: can reconvene here in a few months or a few

1025
00:55:24,880 --> 00:55:28,800
Speaker 5: years time, whenever it is, and have more intellectually interesting

1026
00:55:28,840 --> 00:55:30,960
Speaker 5: things to talk about, even if it means the world

1027
00:55:31,000 --> 00:55:32,640
Speaker 5: is in a little bit worse place, because you've got

1028
00:55:32,640 --> 00:55:34,799
Speaker 5: to look for those advantages in those silver linings where

1029
00:55:34,840 --> 00:55:39,560
Speaker 5: you can, and you know, again, try to have conversations

1030
00:55:39,600 --> 00:55:41,400
Speaker 5: that are worthwhile. So I appreciate you having me on

1031
00:55:41,440 --> 00:55:42,879
Speaker 5: today to talk about some of these things.

1032
00:55:43,400 --> 00:55:45,080
Speaker 3: Good place to end, Thanks again, Casey.

1033
00:55:45,120 --> 00:55:58,680
Speaker 5: All right, Thanks Adam,