1 00:00:15,476 --> 00:00:15,956 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:20,676 --> 00:00:22,356 Speaker 2: I'm excited to share an episode from one of my 3 00:00:22,396 --> 00:00:26,156 Speaker 2: longtime favorite podcasts, Heavyweight, a new addition to the Pushkin 4 00:00:26,196 --> 00:00:30,516 Speaker 2: slative shows. Heavyweight is hosted by Jonathan Goldstein and creates 5 00:00:30,516 --> 00:00:34,316 Speaker 2: space for difficult conversations and resolving long standing regrets and 6 00:00:34,396 --> 00:00:38,996 Speaker 2: unanswered questions, balancing humor and empathy. Host Jonathan Goldstein that 7 00:00:39,036 --> 00:00:42,356 Speaker 2: helps his subjects pinpoint the moment things went wrong and 8 00:00:42,436 --> 00:00:45,156 Speaker 2: joins them on a quest to make them right. The 9 00:00:45,196 --> 00:00:48,396 Speaker 2: episode was sharing today features Michael, who, as a high 10 00:00:48,396 --> 00:00:51,276 Speaker 2: school senior, got his lucky break the chance to star 11 00:00:51,356 --> 00:00:54,516 Speaker 2: in a big budget movie shooting Raped. The premiere date 12 00:00:54,556 --> 00:00:56,956 Speaker 2: was set, and then he found out that his success 13 00:00:57,076 --> 00:01:00,316 Speaker 2: was all based on a lie. Find Heavyweight wherever you 14 00:01:00,356 --> 00:01:02,556 Speaker 2: get your podcasts. 15 00:01:05,156 --> 00:01:08,196 Speaker 3: Hid Happy birthday to me. 16 00:01:09,596 --> 00:01:11,276 Speaker 4: It was your birthday last week, wasn't it. 17 00:01:11,276 --> 00:01:15,916 Speaker 3: It's kind of why I was phoning I. 18 00:01:15,916 --> 00:01:16,796 Speaker 5: I'm sorry, buddy. 19 00:01:17,036 --> 00:01:18,876 Speaker 3: It lose to something. When you have to call a 20 00:01:18,916 --> 00:01:21,956 Speaker 3: week later to receive to get your own your own 21 00:01:21,996 --> 00:01:24,276 Speaker 3: birthday wish from someone you know, it hurts. 22 00:01:24,596 --> 00:01:27,836 Speaker 4: Okay, honestly, I feel like your birthday is that important 23 00:01:27,836 --> 00:01:27,996 Speaker 4: to you? 24 00:01:28,036 --> 00:01:28,476 Speaker 6: Am I wrong? 25 00:01:29,076 --> 00:01:31,036 Speaker 3: Well, it's not as important to me. As the first 26 00:01:31,156 --> 00:01:37,036 Speaker 3: night of Kranuka and the second night, not the third night. 27 00:01:37,596 --> 00:01:38,716 Speaker 3: I hate the third night. 28 00:01:39,636 --> 00:01:40,036 Speaker 7: You know what. 29 00:01:40,196 --> 00:01:42,996 Speaker 3: As a birthday present to myself, I'm going to hang 30 00:01:43,076 --> 00:01:55,636 Speaker 3: up on you. Happy birthday to me. Indeed from Pushkin Industries, 31 00:01:56,116 --> 00:02:02,156 Speaker 3: I'm Jonathan Goldstein and this is Heavyweight today's episode The 32 00:02:02,236 --> 00:02:19,316 Speaker 3: Messenger right after the Break. As a kid growing up 33 00:02:19,316 --> 00:02:23,916 Speaker 3: in Cleveland, Michael loved acting. The only problem I wasn't 34 00:02:24,036 --> 00:02:28,676 Speaker 3: very good. In fact, he stank in every summer camp show. 35 00:02:28,796 --> 00:02:31,716 Speaker 3: He was placed in the back row in a children's 36 00:02:31,756 --> 00:02:35,596 Speaker 3: production of The Hobbit the Musical. Backstage, a kid dressed 37 00:02:35,636 --> 00:02:38,836 Speaker 3: as a dwarf told Michael, my mom says, you're singing 38 00:02:38,956 --> 00:02:42,756 Speaker 3: is awful. But it didn't stop Michael. He nursed his 39 00:02:42,836 --> 00:02:46,036 Speaker 3: acting bug all the way through senior year, when one 40 00:02:46,116 --> 00:02:49,236 Speaker 3: day he heard about a movie being filmed in Cleveland 41 00:02:49,716 --> 00:02:52,916 Speaker 3: and the director needed lots of teens to be extras. 42 00:02:53,796 --> 00:02:56,756 Speaker 3: Straight after school, Michael made his way to the auditions. 43 00:02:57,276 --> 00:02:59,436 Speaker 3: He was shown into a room with the director and 44 00:02:59,516 --> 00:03:02,396 Speaker 3: some of the crew. They gave him a script and 45 00:03:02,436 --> 00:03:03,716 Speaker 3: he started acting. 46 00:03:04,076 --> 00:03:08,476 Speaker 8: And their eyes lit up and I was asked to 47 00:03:08,516 --> 00:03:12,236 Speaker 8: keep reading, And so we did the scene again. We 48 00:03:12,276 --> 00:03:13,236 Speaker 8: did it again. 49 00:03:13,516 --> 00:03:17,236 Speaker 3: And again and again, and all the while Michael was 50 00:03:17,276 --> 00:03:19,236 Speaker 3: overcome by a curious feeling. 51 00:03:19,676 --> 00:03:20,636 Speaker 8: I was doing a good job. 52 00:03:20,916 --> 00:03:24,436 Speaker 3: Had you ever experienced this before, been in an audition 53 00:03:24,556 --> 00:03:26,316 Speaker 3: where people were responding this way? 54 00:03:27,636 --> 00:03:28,236 Speaker 4: No? 55 00:03:28,236 --> 00:03:28,396 Speaker 6: No. 56 00:03:29,356 --> 00:03:32,676 Speaker 8: I was usually in auditions where they're like, we can 57 00:03:32,756 --> 00:03:35,116 Speaker 8: make him a tree. 58 00:03:38,796 --> 00:03:41,396 Speaker 3: At the end of the audition, the director told Michael 59 00:03:41,476 --> 00:03:44,236 Speaker 3: that he was not going to be an extra. Michael 60 00:03:44,556 --> 00:03:46,716 Speaker 3: was going to be the star of the whole movie. 61 00:03:47,636 --> 00:03:49,356 Speaker 3: Why was he going to be the star of the 62 00:03:49,356 --> 00:03:53,076 Speaker 3: whole movie? Was it his brando esque brooding? Is shia 63 00:03:53,116 --> 00:03:54,516 Speaker 3: la buffi in intensity? 64 00:03:55,156 --> 00:04:00,596 Speaker 8: They showed me the storyboard and I looked exactly like 65 00:04:00,916 --> 00:04:04,676 Speaker 8: the kid in the drawings of the storyboard. That's the 66 00:04:04,756 --> 00:04:06,996 Speaker 8: reason I got it. They were just like, you look 67 00:04:07,076 --> 00:04:07,956 Speaker 8: like the kid we drew. 68 00:04:09,196 --> 00:04:12,596 Speaker 3: The film was called The Messenger, based on a true story, 69 00:04:13,236 --> 00:04:15,956 Speaker 3: and the true story it was based on was a 70 00:04:15,956 --> 00:04:19,716 Speaker 3: little known World War II anecdote about a teenager named 71 00:04:19,756 --> 00:04:24,996 Speaker 3: Thomas E. Jones. Jones was a telegram messenger in Washington, DC. 72 00:04:26,036 --> 00:04:29,316 Speaker 3: On August fourteenth, nineteen forty five. He was sent to 73 00:04:29,396 --> 00:04:33,916 Speaker 3: deliver the telegram that announced Japan's unconditional surrender to the Allies, 74 00:04:34,556 --> 00:04:37,236 Speaker 3: but on the way to deliver the message, he got 75 00:04:37,236 --> 00:04:40,996 Speaker 3: pulled over for an illegal U turn, and thus the 76 00:04:41,076 --> 00:04:44,516 Speaker 3: end of World War Two was delayed by ten minutes. 77 00:04:45,556 --> 00:04:48,436 Speaker 3: Michael played the role of Thomas as he navigated that 78 00:04:48,516 --> 00:04:49,196 Speaker 3: fateful day. 79 00:04:49,796 --> 00:04:52,676 Speaker 8: I show up to set and I just was immediately 80 00:04:52,996 --> 00:04:55,676 Speaker 8: involved in the magic of film, and they had to 81 00:04:55,996 --> 00:04:58,796 Speaker 8: fake the daylight by putting lights outside the window. And 82 00:04:59,156 --> 00:05:02,116 Speaker 8: I remember being like, Oh, you're not just like capturing 83 00:05:02,156 --> 00:05:04,436 Speaker 8: a moment, You're creating a moment. 84 00:05:05,276 --> 00:05:08,596 Speaker 3: And the custodian of this exciting new world. The director 85 00:05:08,636 --> 00:05:11,076 Speaker 3: of the movie was a twenty five year old wonder 86 00:05:11,156 --> 00:05:16,676 Speaker 3: kid named Quincy. Quincy took to Michael immediately. Throughout the production, 87 00:05:16,916 --> 00:05:19,156 Speaker 3: he check in with Michael on the phone and take 88 00:05:19,236 --> 00:05:22,316 Speaker 3: him out for wings. Michael looked up to Quincy. 89 00:05:22,396 --> 00:05:26,796 Speaker 8: You meet someone who was orchestrating this giant production, and 90 00:05:26,836 --> 00:05:30,156 Speaker 8: then for him to take time talk to me, I 91 00:05:30,156 --> 00:05:30,956 Speaker 8: felt part of. 92 00:05:31,836 --> 00:05:35,636 Speaker 3: Even after filming wrapped, Quincy stayed in touch, calling Michael 93 00:05:35,676 --> 00:05:37,556 Speaker 3: with updates about the movie's release. 94 00:05:38,156 --> 00:05:41,796 Speaker 8: We were going to premiere at the Philadelphia Film Festival. 95 00:05:42,316 --> 00:05:45,516 Speaker 8: I learned that it was a big production, one hundred 96 00:05:45,556 --> 00:05:47,876 Speaker 8: thousand dollars short film, which is a lot of money 97 00:05:48,036 --> 00:05:51,836 Speaker 8: for a short movie. The executive producer was this man 98 00:05:51,916 --> 00:05:54,956 Speaker 8: named Pat croche Pad pad. 99 00:05:55,396 --> 00:05:58,716 Speaker 3: Pad if you don't know the name. Pat Crochey was 100 00:05:58,756 --> 00:06:01,996 Speaker 3: a media presence, an entrepreneur famous in the world of 101 00:06:02,036 --> 00:06:05,196 Speaker 3: sports because he owned the Philadelphia seventy six ers in 102 00:06:05,236 --> 00:06:10,796 Speaker 3: the late nineties. He was a motivational speaker. 103 00:06:10,996 --> 00:06:13,156 Speaker 7: Get up, I slap my palms together, It's going to 104 00:06:13,236 --> 00:06:13,556 Speaker 7: be a. 105 00:06:13,596 --> 00:06:16,476 Speaker 3: Great day, a noted pirate enthusiast. 106 00:06:16,596 --> 00:06:19,476 Speaker 7: People ask me if I'm a pirate, and I say yes, 107 00:06:19,996 --> 00:06:21,676 Speaker 7: but three hundred years too late. 108 00:06:21,956 --> 00:06:25,316 Speaker 3: And the kind of beloved pre me too. Macho man 109 00:06:25,436 --> 00:06:28,076 Speaker 3: would show up unannounced on the set of the local 110 00:06:28,156 --> 00:06:31,316 Speaker 3: news just to scoop the anchor woman up into his arms. 111 00:06:31,556 --> 00:06:35,996 Speaker 4: Accident on the jersey term, I could. 112 00:06:36,236 --> 00:06:39,676 Speaker 3: My god, because when you have that much jouas de viva, 113 00:06:40,116 --> 00:06:42,236 Speaker 3: what choice do you have? You know, whenever Pat comes 114 00:06:42,236 --> 00:06:47,956 Speaker 3: in the room, you never know what's gonna happens, because 115 00:06:48,196 --> 00:06:50,756 Speaker 3: Pat Crochey, because he's involved. 116 00:06:51,436 --> 00:06:53,716 Speaker 8: The movie gets a lot of press. 117 00:06:53,996 --> 00:06:56,916 Speaker 3: For a short film by an unknown director. The Messenger 118 00:06:56,956 --> 00:07:00,516 Speaker 3: received an unheard of amount of press. ESPN carried a 119 00:07:00,556 --> 00:07:03,236 Speaker 3: story with footage of Michael on set, and there was 120 00:07:03,276 --> 00:07:05,196 Speaker 3: a huge write up in USA. Today. 121 00:07:05,756 --> 00:07:07,956 Speaker 8: My dad was flying that day, you know, he was 122 00:07:07,996 --> 00:07:10,676 Speaker 8: in an airport. He picks up the US head Today, 123 00:07:10,996 --> 00:07:13,876 Speaker 8: he flips it open and sees a two page spread 124 00:07:13,996 --> 00:07:17,516 Speaker 8: with my picture on it. So the family's excitement, the 125 00:07:17,516 --> 00:07:19,876 Speaker 8: friend's excitement, everyone starts to just be like, this is 126 00:07:19,916 --> 00:07:20,956 Speaker 8: a very big deal. 127 00:07:21,636 --> 00:07:24,356 Speaker 3: Michael was planning on college in the fall, but as 128 00:07:24,396 --> 00:07:27,916 Speaker 3: anticipation around the movie grew, he started to reconsider. 129 00:07:31,516 --> 00:07:34,516 Speaker 8: Leading up to the Philadelphia Film Festival, talking to Quincy, 130 00:07:34,716 --> 00:07:38,276 Speaker 8: He's like, Tom Hanks wants to meet with you. This 131 00:07:38,996 --> 00:07:41,716 Speaker 8: is a real chance, this is a real opportunity. This 132 00:07:41,796 --> 00:07:45,516 Speaker 8: is bigger than I imagined. I was like, maybe maybe 133 00:07:45,516 --> 00:07:47,396 Speaker 8: I try and pursue acting. 134 00:07:48,276 --> 00:07:51,516 Speaker 3: Maybe Michael had been wrong all these years, Maybe everyone 135 00:07:51,596 --> 00:07:54,876 Speaker 3: had been Maybe he really was a good actor and 136 00:07:54,916 --> 00:08:01,236 Speaker 3: it took Quincy to discover it. Michael couldn't wait to 137 00:08:01,316 --> 00:08:04,236 Speaker 3: walk the red carpet, see himself on the big screen, 138 00:08:04,596 --> 00:08:07,396 Speaker 3: and enjoy a virgin appleteini with Tom Hanks. 139 00:08:07,876 --> 00:08:10,716 Speaker 8: Did your parents come with you to the premiere? Well, 140 00:08:11,276 --> 00:08:15,196 Speaker 8: we didn't make it to the premiere. The movie was canceled. 141 00:08:20,156 --> 00:08:25,316 Speaker 8: So the week before the Philadelphia Film Festival premiere. I 142 00:08:25,356 --> 00:08:31,156 Speaker 8: got a phone call from Quincy and he was clearly crying, 143 00:08:31,996 --> 00:08:35,796 Speaker 8: and he told me that the movie wasn't going to 144 00:08:35,836 --> 00:08:40,116 Speaker 8: come out and nobody was going to see it because 145 00:08:40,916 --> 00:08:46,316 Speaker 8: it turns out that Quincy had lied and had told 146 00:08:46,316 --> 00:08:47,836 Speaker 8: a really big lie. 147 00:08:48,036 --> 00:08:50,756 Speaker 3: The Liemichael's referring to had nothing to do with the 148 00:08:50,836 --> 00:08:55,076 Speaker 3: historical anecdote itself. That part was true, but over the 149 00:08:55,156 --> 00:08:58,716 Speaker 3: end credits, Quincy played footage of the actual present day 150 00:08:58,756 --> 00:09:02,996 Speaker 3: Thomas E Jones being interviewed on his deathbed. The only 151 00:09:03,076 --> 00:09:10,116 Speaker 3: problem that guy was an actor. It seems Quincy had 152 00:09:10,156 --> 00:09:12,996 Speaker 3: just found a random old man, slipped him into a gown, 153 00:09:13,276 --> 00:09:16,556 Speaker 3: strapped him into a hospital bed, and christened him Thomas 154 00:09:16,556 --> 00:09:20,876 Speaker 3: E Jones. But there was one thing Quincy wasn't counting on. 155 00:09:21,716 --> 00:09:22,996 Speaker 3: Because the movie. 156 00:09:22,836 --> 00:09:28,996 Speaker 8: Had received so much attention, Thomas E Jones's real family found. 157 00:09:28,756 --> 00:09:32,916 Speaker 3: Out, and Thomas E Jones's real family wasn't happy, because, 158 00:09:32,956 --> 00:09:35,596 Speaker 3: as it turned out, the real Thomas E Jones was 159 00:09:35,756 --> 00:09:40,436 Speaker 3: very much alive, breathing, eating, sleeping, and not on a 160 00:09:40,476 --> 00:09:43,756 Speaker 3: deathbed but just a regular old bed bed, and so 161 00:09:43,876 --> 00:09:45,996 Speaker 3: Pat Crochey decided to pull the movie. 162 00:09:46,676 --> 00:09:50,356 Speaker 8: I mean, it was crushing disappointment. I had the ticket 163 00:09:50,396 --> 00:09:52,796 Speaker 8: to go, I had the suit, I had all the 164 00:09:52,836 --> 00:09:56,636 Speaker 8: expectation I had in my brain, everything that could be 165 00:09:56,916 --> 00:10:01,076 Speaker 8: possible after and it's all gone, it's all it vanishes. 166 00:10:01,636 --> 00:10:04,956 Speaker 8: And then it's a wave of embarrassment because I have 167 00:10:05,036 --> 00:10:06,956 Speaker 8: to tell everybody. 168 00:10:07,076 --> 00:10:10,396 Speaker 3: Michael had to go back to his friend's, his grandmother 169 00:10:10,436 --> 00:10:13,636 Speaker 3: who had been clipping every article about the movie, and say, 170 00:10:14,196 --> 00:10:16,516 Speaker 3: remember how I was going to be a big movie star. 171 00:10:17,116 --> 00:10:19,516 Speaker 3: It was all a fraud. And the guy who thought 172 00:10:19,516 --> 00:10:21,836 Speaker 3: I had talent also a fraud. 173 00:10:22,396 --> 00:10:24,756 Speaker 8: And I never talked to Quincy again. 174 00:10:25,956 --> 00:10:29,316 Speaker 3: Michael abandoned his dream of becoming an actor, but his 175 00:10:29,436 --> 00:10:32,476 Speaker 3: time on The Messengers still had its impact. It allowed 176 00:10:32,516 --> 00:10:34,796 Speaker 3: him to realize how much he loved being on a set, 177 00:10:35,156 --> 00:10:38,076 Speaker 3: loved the magic of creating a whole world from thin air, 178 00:10:38,636 --> 00:10:41,636 Speaker 3: and that pushed him towards a career in TV, writing 179 00:10:41,636 --> 00:10:46,836 Speaker 3: for shows on Disney and Nickelodeon. Meanwhile, Quincy's IMDb credits 180 00:10:46,996 --> 00:10:47,916 Speaker 3: have grown sparse. 181 00:10:48,316 --> 00:10:50,996 Speaker 8: I always wonder what happened to Quincy, because I looked 182 00:10:51,076 --> 00:10:52,876 Speaker 8: up to him. There was part of me that wanted 183 00:10:52,916 --> 00:10:57,596 Speaker 8: to tell him that I've succeeded, that I've pursued movies 184 00:10:57,636 --> 00:10:58,676 Speaker 8: because of him. 185 00:10:58,916 --> 00:11:02,156 Speaker 3: But along with that, Michael has a lingering question for Quincy. 186 00:11:02,796 --> 00:11:06,636 Speaker 8: I never understood why you would take such a big 187 00:11:06,756 --> 00:11:10,156 Speaker 8: risk like that to make such a big line. It's 188 00:11:10,196 --> 00:11:12,196 Speaker 8: like you've set up a film crew to film this 189 00:11:12,276 --> 00:11:14,436 Speaker 8: guy on his deathbed and it wasn't like it just 190 00:11:14,476 --> 00:11:16,636 Speaker 8: seems like a bad plan. 191 00:11:17,676 --> 00:11:20,396 Speaker 3: As Michael has climbed the ranks of show business, this 192 00:11:20,476 --> 00:11:24,596 Speaker 3: question has only gained in poignance. Why risk your reputation, 193 00:11:25,316 --> 00:11:27,276 Speaker 3: especially when the story was good enough. 194 00:11:27,076 --> 00:11:27,636 Speaker 9: As it was? 195 00:11:29,116 --> 00:11:33,716 Speaker 3: Why did you lie? After the break searching for Quincy 196 00:11:34,036 --> 00:11:38,876 Speaker 3: to become the messengers messenger? But first the best messages 197 00:11:38,916 --> 00:11:44,156 Speaker 3: of all promotional messages from our cherished sponsors. We really 198 00:11:44,196 --> 00:11:47,276 Speaker 3: do love you, guys ill two gross. 199 00:11:47,356 --> 00:11:50,116 Speaker 7: It's a little gross, eh. 200 00:11:50,196 --> 00:12:12,876 Speaker 3: Keep it in. Why did Quincy lie? The more I 201 00:12:12,916 --> 00:12:15,916 Speaker 3: think about it, the less sense it all makes. Why 202 00:12:15,996 --> 00:12:18,116 Speaker 3: go to the trouble of hiring an old man and 203 00:12:18,156 --> 00:12:21,436 Speaker 3: building a hospital set? Why not just use the real 204 00:12:21,516 --> 00:12:21,956 Speaker 3: Thomas E. 205 00:12:22,076 --> 00:12:22,476 Speaker 5: Jones? 206 00:12:26,036 --> 00:12:29,916 Speaker 3: Hello, Oh Hello, my name is Jonathan Golds. I've so 207 00:12:29,956 --> 00:12:32,796 Speaker 3: far been unable to contact Quincy, so I reach out 208 00:12:32,796 --> 00:12:34,876 Speaker 3: to someone else who might have the answer. I was 209 00:12:34,916 --> 00:12:36,116 Speaker 3: looking for a Thomas E. 210 00:12:36,356 --> 00:12:36,796 Speaker 7: Jones. 211 00:12:37,796 --> 00:12:38,676 Speaker 9: He's deceased. 212 00:12:39,316 --> 00:12:41,556 Speaker 3: Oh, I'm very sorry. 213 00:12:41,836 --> 00:12:46,676 Speaker 9: Yes, I'm his widow. When he died, we would have 214 00:12:46,756 --> 00:12:49,156 Speaker 9: been married almost seventy years. 215 00:12:49,836 --> 00:12:53,916 Speaker 3: Thomas's widow, Nancy, is eighty nine years old. She says 216 00:12:53,956 --> 00:12:56,996 Speaker 3: she doesn't know why Quincy didn't just go to Thomas himself, 217 00:12:57,556 --> 00:12:59,516 Speaker 3: But we get to talking and she tells me the 218 00:12:59,556 --> 00:13:02,556 Speaker 3: story of how she first met Thomas. It was through 219 00:13:02,596 --> 00:13:05,916 Speaker 3: his work as a messenger. It turns out Nancy's father 220 00:13:06,076 --> 00:13:09,796 Speaker 3: was Thomas's boss at the telegram office. Tells me how 221 00:13:09,836 --> 00:13:13,276 Speaker 3: in nineteen forty five, there was a dedicated telegraph machine 222 00:13:13,396 --> 00:13:17,956 Speaker 3: standing by for the sole purpose of awaiting the Japanese surrender. 223 00:13:17,996 --> 00:13:22,996 Speaker 9: And when that machine started ticket my father, he handed 224 00:13:23,036 --> 00:13:26,436 Speaker 9: his message first to my husband, who was a bicycle 225 00:13:26,476 --> 00:13:28,516 Speaker 9: messenger at sixteen years of age. 226 00:13:29,116 --> 00:13:32,156 Speaker 3: Since the bike was too slow for such an important message, 227 00:13:32,316 --> 00:13:36,316 Speaker 3: a coworker agreed to drive Thomas in his car. Unfortunately, 228 00:13:36,556 --> 00:13:39,636 Speaker 3: he set out in the wrong direction, and thus the 229 00:13:39,676 --> 00:13:43,596 Speaker 3: most famous U turn in American history, or at least 230 00:13:43,636 --> 00:13:46,036 Speaker 3: the only one I've ever heard of, and I've read 231 00:13:46,076 --> 00:13:49,396 Speaker 3: Mike Howard Zinn. The U turn got Thomas and his 232 00:13:49,476 --> 00:13:51,076 Speaker 3: driver pulled over by a cop. 233 00:13:51,476 --> 00:13:53,916 Speaker 9: Of course, they were saying, we've got the Japanese piece 234 00:13:53,956 --> 00:13:56,716 Speaker 9: a render message here. Yeah, I've heard a lot of stories, 235 00:13:56,756 --> 00:13:59,836 Speaker 9: but the police realized it was the truth. They just 236 00:13:59,916 --> 00:14:00,796 Speaker 9: pore up the ticket. 237 00:14:01,316 --> 00:14:04,956 Speaker 3: Wow, what a story is. Yeah, and it's a pretty 238 00:14:04,956 --> 00:14:08,516 Speaker 3: different story than the one in the Messenger. Not only 239 00:14:08,596 --> 00:14:11,316 Speaker 3: were the jones Is angry about the fake Thomas, but 240 00:14:11,356 --> 00:14:14,596 Speaker 3: they were also angry about what they considered the fake story. 241 00:14:15,196 --> 00:14:18,476 Speaker 3: In Quincy's version of events, Thomas is in no hurry 242 00:14:18,556 --> 00:14:21,636 Speaker 3: to deliver the message. He makes a casual pit stop 243 00:14:21,676 --> 00:14:24,356 Speaker 3: at a diner where he hits on the waitress and 244 00:14:24,556 --> 00:14:28,356 Speaker 3: enjoys a large breakfast of pancakes, all while the war 245 00:14:28,516 --> 00:14:31,716 Speaker 3: rages on. The Jones Is read about that scene in 246 00:14:31,756 --> 00:14:35,196 Speaker 3: the media coverage of Quincy's movie, newspaper write ups with 247 00:14:35,276 --> 00:14:39,116 Speaker 3: headlines like boys pancake breakfast delayed the end of World 248 00:14:39,196 --> 00:14:41,876 Speaker 3: War Two. 249 00:14:42,956 --> 00:14:46,196 Speaker 9: Well, you know, my kids were just serious about that. 250 00:14:46,996 --> 00:14:50,596 Speaker 9: Sports talking about kids, We're talking about people now sixty 251 00:14:50,676 --> 00:14:51,236 Speaker 9: years old. 252 00:14:52,436 --> 00:14:54,476 Speaker 6: We were outraged. The kids were outraged. 253 00:14:55,316 --> 00:14:58,916 Speaker 3: This is Victoria Jones. She's one of Thomas and Nancy's 254 00:14:58,956 --> 00:15:02,356 Speaker 3: six children, all of whom, when it came to the Messenger, 255 00:15:02,756 --> 00:15:04,116 Speaker 3: were in agreement. 256 00:15:03,876 --> 00:15:06,476 Speaker 7: Which was unusual for the six of us. 257 00:15:07,236 --> 00:15:10,876 Speaker 3: This is Thomas's son, Mike. He says that the only 258 00:15:10,916 --> 00:15:14,476 Speaker 3: one inclined to let the whole thing go was Thomas himself. 259 00:15:14,836 --> 00:15:17,196 Speaker 5: That was kind of my dad's attitude, like, oh, don't 260 00:15:17,196 --> 00:15:19,476 Speaker 5: make a big deal, don't get this person in trouble. 261 00:15:19,676 --> 00:15:22,716 Speaker 6: We said, no, this is altering history. 262 00:15:22,956 --> 00:15:25,156 Speaker 5: It just kind of portrayed him like as the slacker, 263 00:15:25,236 --> 00:15:26,636 Speaker 5: you know, like, oh, the heck with that, I'm going 264 00:15:26,716 --> 00:15:28,876 Speaker 5: to go and flirt and eat pancakes. 265 00:15:33,796 --> 00:15:37,076 Speaker 3: Victoria says that although Quincy never reached out to her father, 266 00:15:37,596 --> 00:15:38,636 Speaker 3: he easily could have. 267 00:15:39,276 --> 00:15:41,396 Speaker 4: Just like you found my mother by getting a few 268 00:15:41,396 --> 00:15:45,036 Speaker 4: phone calls, Quincy could have found my father and he 269 00:15:45,116 --> 00:15:45,796 Speaker 4: never tried. 270 00:15:46,516 --> 00:15:49,676 Speaker 3: When she found out about the movie, Victoria messaged Quincy 271 00:15:49,796 --> 00:15:53,356 Speaker 3: several times, but she says he grew defensive and eventually 272 00:15:53,436 --> 00:15:54,276 Speaker 3: stopped answering. 273 00:15:54,756 --> 00:15:57,756 Speaker 4: And then when my father died, I sent him a 274 00:15:57,756 --> 00:16:00,476 Speaker 4: message and said my father is now deceased. 275 00:16:01,516 --> 00:16:03,636 Speaker 3: Oh, and he did not respond to that. 276 00:16:04,476 --> 00:16:07,476 Speaker 6: No, I should go back and look. He might have 277 00:16:07,556 --> 00:16:08,636 Speaker 6: said I'm sorry. 278 00:16:08,396 --> 00:16:11,436 Speaker 3: And that was it. I tell the Joneses the story 279 00:16:11,476 --> 00:16:14,396 Speaker 3: about Michael and how I'm trying to reach Quincy myself. 280 00:16:14,756 --> 00:16:15,676 Speaker 6: Good luck with that one. 281 00:16:15,876 --> 00:16:19,396 Speaker 9: I'm sure he'll say this better left of dead story 282 00:16:19,596 --> 00:16:19,996 Speaker 9: out too. 283 00:16:27,156 --> 00:16:30,276 Speaker 3: It turns out Nancy Jones is right. When I finally 284 00:16:30,316 --> 00:16:33,996 Speaker 3: get through to Quincy via email, his response is emphatic. 285 00:16:34,596 --> 00:16:38,276 Speaker 3: I'm not interested in talking about that project anymore, he writes, 286 00:16:39,036 --> 00:16:47,996 Speaker 3: And that's the last I hear from Quincy. What happens 287 00:16:48,036 --> 00:16:52,356 Speaker 3: next is years go by, unrelated to my failure to 288 00:16:52,356 --> 00:16:56,356 Speaker 3: speak with Quincy. But you never know. Heavyweight is canceled 289 00:16:56,436 --> 00:16:59,436 Speaker 3: and I lose my job. And while the story never 290 00:16:59,636 --> 00:17:03,476 Speaker 3: entirely leaves my mind, without an ergonomic office chair and 291 00:17:03,556 --> 00:17:06,396 Speaker 3: a long distance phone plan, there's not much I could 292 00:17:06,396 --> 00:17:09,556 Speaker 3: do about it. And then one day, while trying to 293 00:17:09,556 --> 00:17:12,636 Speaker 3: decide on a fun font for my resume, I receive 294 00:17:12,716 --> 00:17:16,076 Speaker 3: a message from Michael. He says he has an important 295 00:17:16,236 --> 00:17:20,116 Speaker 3: update to share. Hey Jonathan, Hey Michael, how are you good? 296 00:17:20,196 --> 00:17:20,836 Speaker 8: How are you doing? 297 00:17:21,356 --> 00:17:24,196 Speaker 3: It's been almost three years since Michael and I have spoken. 298 00:17:24,716 --> 00:17:25,276 Speaker 3: You have a son. 299 00:17:25,356 --> 00:17:27,156 Speaker 8: Now I've got a wife, I've got a son. 300 00:17:28,556 --> 00:17:32,076 Speaker 3: The whole family is currently in New York, where Michael's wife, Katie, 301 00:17:32,116 --> 00:17:35,356 Speaker 3: is producing a movie. It turns out that Katie's movie 302 00:17:35,396 --> 00:17:37,076 Speaker 3: is the reason for Michael's update. 303 00:17:37,276 --> 00:17:39,836 Speaker 8: An associate producer on the movie, his name's Dan. 304 00:17:40,476 --> 00:17:43,516 Speaker 3: Michael explains that while out for dinner with Dan, they 305 00:17:43,556 --> 00:17:46,876 Speaker 3: started talking about the industry, by which I mean the 306 00:17:46,956 --> 00:17:50,516 Speaker 3: show business industry. And one of the things people in 307 00:17:50,556 --> 00:17:53,996 Speaker 3: the industry enjoy chatting about most is how they got 308 00:17:53,996 --> 00:17:57,236 Speaker 3: into the industry industry. So Michael told Dan the story 309 00:17:57,276 --> 00:18:01,116 Speaker 3: of the Messenger, about the director Quincy, about the producer 310 00:18:01,356 --> 00:18:02,556 Speaker 3: Pat Crochy. 311 00:18:02,476 --> 00:18:08,596 Speaker 8: And Dan is from Philly. Dan's parents are family friends 312 00:18:08,836 --> 00:18:09,796 Speaker 8: with the Crochees. 313 00:18:10,476 --> 00:18:16,316 Speaker 3: You're kidding. Show biz connections in this life, there's not 314 00:18:16,436 --> 00:18:19,756 Speaker 3: a thing that doesn't come down to show biz connections. 315 00:18:20,276 --> 00:18:23,116 Speaker 3: It's not what you know, when you know, where you 316 00:18:23,236 --> 00:18:25,956 Speaker 3: know it, or why you know it, but whom you know. 317 00:18:27,076 --> 00:18:30,116 Speaker 3: Pat Crochy was the executive producer on the movie, the 318 00:18:30,156 --> 00:18:33,156 Speaker 3: one who ultimately shut it all down. So with Quincy 319 00:18:33,236 --> 00:18:36,356 Speaker 3: unwilling to talk, he's our best shot at figuring out 320 00:18:36,396 --> 00:18:39,556 Speaker 3: why Quincy had lied. At some point, Pat had to 321 00:18:39,556 --> 00:18:45,396 Speaker 3: have demanded an explanation from Quincy. Dan agrees to talk 322 00:18:45,436 --> 00:18:47,916 Speaker 3: to his mom, who agrees to talk to Pat's daughter, 323 00:18:48,196 --> 00:18:51,116 Speaker 3: who agrees to talk with Pat, who then agrees to 324 00:18:51,196 --> 00:18:57,476 Speaker 3: talk with me. Mister Crochy, call me Pat. This is Pat, Pat, 325 00:18:57,796 --> 00:18:59,276 Speaker 3: Pat Crochy. 326 00:18:59,796 --> 00:19:02,196 Speaker 7: One thing I like to say about your heavyweight podcast 327 00:19:02,316 --> 00:19:07,196 Speaker 7: is that it always inculcates a high vibrational frequency. 328 00:19:07,236 --> 00:19:10,716 Speaker 3: Can you say more about the high frequent see well. 329 00:19:10,476 --> 00:19:13,516 Speaker 7: In the realm of form, if we're going to transcend form. 330 00:19:13,676 --> 00:19:16,356 Speaker 3: Pat Crochy has a white goatee that ends in a 331 00:19:16,396 --> 00:19:19,876 Speaker 3: point at his chest. He's in the Zenden, a large 332 00:19:19,996 --> 00:19:23,076 Speaker 3: room above the barn on his fifty three acre estate. 333 00:19:23,676 --> 00:19:27,196 Speaker 3: His walls are covered in Chinese and Tibetan calligraphy. He 334 00:19:27,276 --> 00:19:30,676 Speaker 3: says that these days he seldom makes any media appearances. 335 00:19:31,116 --> 00:19:32,916 Speaker 3: Is there any reason for that? 336 00:19:33,836 --> 00:19:37,316 Speaker 7: Ah, it's a great question, you interviewer. You well. Ten 337 00:19:37,396 --> 00:19:40,916 Speaker 7: years ago something happened. My mind cracked. 338 00:19:41,756 --> 00:19:44,036 Speaker 3: Pat's mind cracked in a meeting for one of his 339 00:19:44,116 --> 00:19:48,676 Speaker 3: restaurants he owned several, among them the Rum Barrel, which 340 00:19:48,756 --> 00:19:49,676 Speaker 3: is pirate themed. 341 00:19:50,116 --> 00:19:53,036 Speaker 7: And I'm sitting there think it to myself, what the 342 00:19:53,036 --> 00:19:55,716 Speaker 7: hell am I doing here? I don't really give a 343 00:19:55,756 --> 00:19:59,556 Speaker 7: shit about the next great grouper sandwich. This is just more. 344 00:19:59,916 --> 00:20:04,196 Speaker 7: I always was seeking more, another win, another standing ovation, 345 00:20:04,356 --> 00:20:09,516 Speaker 7: another best seller, another another more more. It there was 346 00:20:09,636 --> 00:20:12,516 Speaker 7: never enough, never what. 347 00:20:12,556 --> 00:20:15,396 Speaker 3: Pat realized was that in spite of all his successes, 348 00:20:15,756 --> 00:20:18,516 Speaker 3: he wasn't really happy, and so he tried to change 349 00:20:18,556 --> 00:20:21,436 Speaker 3: his way of thinking, but it was a slow process. 350 00:20:21,796 --> 00:20:25,276 Speaker 10: The ego in me was, if I can change my mind, 351 00:20:25,516 --> 00:20:28,156 Speaker 10: that'd be another great bestseller, and I would go back 352 00:20:28,156 --> 00:20:30,996 Speaker 10: on the speaking gain. It was all ego, all commercial, 353 00:20:31,156 --> 00:20:32,516 Speaker 10: but that's how Grace hooked me. 354 00:20:38,716 --> 00:20:42,996 Speaker 7: Everything that unfolds is perfect. I have this adage the 355 00:20:43,036 --> 00:20:47,076 Speaker 7: past has served his purpose perfectly, but most people are 356 00:20:47,196 --> 00:20:49,636 Speaker 7: cherry pickers. Well, I wish that would have changed, or 357 00:20:49,676 --> 00:20:54,956 Speaker 7: I wish this or no. The purpose of the past, Jonathan, 358 00:20:55,156 --> 00:20:58,596 Speaker 7: There's only one purpose to bring you and me right 359 00:20:58,636 --> 00:21:01,676 Speaker 7: here and now. Okay, The past to me is smoke 360 00:21:01,756 --> 00:21:02,876 Speaker 7: off the end of my cigar. 361 00:21:03,796 --> 00:21:06,356 Speaker 3: For me, the past is also smoke off the end 362 00:21:06,396 --> 00:21:10,236 Speaker 3: of my cigar, juicy wafts of pressure smoke to be 363 00:21:10,356 --> 00:21:14,076 Speaker 3: hysterically clod at, like a rabid raccoon attacking a helium 364 00:21:14,076 --> 00:21:17,516 Speaker 3: filled garbage can. And so I asked Pat to go 365 00:21:17,636 --> 00:21:20,756 Speaker 3: back to the past and explain how he became involved 366 00:21:20,796 --> 00:21:24,316 Speaker 3: with Quincy, Michael and the Messenger. He says it all 367 00:21:24,356 --> 00:21:27,636 Speaker 3: began in Key West at the pirate themed museum. He 368 00:21:27,716 --> 00:21:31,756 Speaker 3: owned that sat beside the pirate themed restaurant he also owned. 369 00:21:32,036 --> 00:21:35,796 Speaker 7: And you get to know all the piratical personalities on 370 00:21:35,796 --> 00:21:38,956 Speaker 7: that island, one of which was Reef. And Reef is 371 00:21:38,996 --> 00:21:42,076 Speaker 7: a salvager and he's really got a piratical nature. He 372 00:21:42,076 --> 00:21:44,876 Speaker 7: would even dress as a part and I really loved him. 373 00:21:45,276 --> 00:21:48,556 Speaker 3: One day, Reef ast Pat for a favor. Could Pat 374 00:21:48,596 --> 00:21:51,436 Speaker 3: meet with his son, Quincy, who wanted to make a movie. 375 00:21:51,716 --> 00:21:53,876 Speaker 7: And we got talking and he turned me on to 376 00:21:54,116 --> 00:21:56,196 Speaker 7: this script that he has been writing. 377 00:21:56,236 --> 00:21:57,476 Speaker 3: And you liked it? 378 00:21:57,916 --> 00:22:00,476 Speaker 7: Oh? Sure? Are you kidding me? It's talking about this 379 00:22:00,596 --> 00:22:03,396 Speaker 7: young boy who has an effect on the ending of 380 00:22:03,436 --> 00:22:04,196 Speaker 7: World War two? 381 00:22:04,436 --> 00:22:07,076 Speaker 3: And you hadn't known that story. I hadn't known that story. 382 00:22:07,276 --> 00:22:08,996 Speaker 7: Oh no, I had never heard of it. 383 00:22:09,196 --> 00:22:10,876 Speaker 3: Your impression of Quincy when you first met. 384 00:22:10,796 --> 00:22:12,996 Speaker 7: Him, Oh, I liked him and so and I believed 385 00:22:12,996 --> 00:22:14,276 Speaker 7: everything Quincy told me. 386 00:22:15,356 --> 00:22:18,196 Speaker 3: When Quincy's lie came out, Pat was furious. 387 00:22:18,556 --> 00:22:21,356 Speaker 7: Prior to ten years ago, before you know, my minecrack. 388 00:22:21,716 --> 00:22:24,236 Speaker 7: He's lucky he didn't cross my path, or else he 389 00:22:24,276 --> 00:22:25,076 Speaker 7: wouldn't be walking. 390 00:22:26,116 --> 00:22:28,436 Speaker 3: Do you mean that you mean that literally? 391 00:22:29,636 --> 00:22:35,556 Speaker 7: Uh, let's say no. 392 00:22:35,676 --> 00:22:48,756 Speaker 11: Since this is being taped, I'm pretty street savvy. I 393 00:22:48,916 --> 00:22:53,076 Speaker 11: couldn't believe that I got Buffalo like this as someone 394 00:22:53,156 --> 00:22:55,236 Speaker 11: I thought was a friend, you know, a friend, a 395 00:22:55,316 --> 00:22:56,196 Speaker 11: Key West friend. 396 00:22:57,556 --> 00:23:00,116 Speaker 7: I was so hurt that I was angry. And when 397 00:23:00,156 --> 00:23:03,396 Speaker 7: I'm angry, the old pack croa cheap the old corner 398 00:23:03,436 --> 00:23:08,356 Speaker 7: guy man. Not only did I lose the money, but 399 00:23:08,556 --> 00:23:10,836 Speaker 7: all the context that I made for him to get 400 00:23:10,876 --> 00:23:13,716 Speaker 7: him in USA. Today, I opened all these doors, through 401 00:23:13,756 --> 00:23:17,196 Speaker 7: all my relationships, and then all of a sudden, when 402 00:23:17,236 --> 00:23:20,836 Speaker 7: I realized that it was fraud, that it was phony. 403 00:23:20,956 --> 00:23:22,956 Speaker 7: I mean, I had to go and apologize to everyone. 404 00:23:23,916 --> 00:23:26,796 Speaker 3: But Pat says that these days he doesn't have time 405 00:23:26,836 --> 00:23:28,996 Speaker 3: for rumination or regret. 406 00:23:29,196 --> 00:23:33,356 Speaker 7: And even though I am here at peace, my body 407 00:23:34,196 --> 00:23:38,596 Speaker 7: has spell marrow cancer. I'm on chemo every twelve hours 408 00:23:38,636 --> 00:23:43,196 Speaker 7: of chemo mets incurable. However I don't regret that I 409 00:23:43,236 --> 00:23:49,476 Speaker 7: don't nothing. Oh wow, Jonathan, it's only my body, It's 410 00:23:49,596 --> 00:23:50,276 Speaker 7: not me. 411 00:23:57,676 --> 00:24:00,876 Speaker 3: Before we get off, I asked Pat Michael's burning question, 412 00:24:01,476 --> 00:24:05,476 Speaker 3: why did Quincy lie? But Pat says he doesn't ask 413 00:24:05,676 --> 00:24:10,076 Speaker 3: the why questions only Quincy. Pat says, if he goes deep, 414 00:24:10,356 --> 00:24:14,396 Speaker 3: can answer that. Patt and Quincy haven't spoken for decades. 415 00:24:14,756 --> 00:24:18,396 Speaker 3: Their last interactions were angry ones. Right after Quincy's lie 416 00:24:18,436 --> 00:24:21,836 Speaker 3: came out all the same, Pat offers to reach out 417 00:24:21,876 --> 00:24:25,116 Speaker 3: to Quincy. He contacts a friend who he thinks might 418 00:24:25,156 --> 00:24:28,836 Speaker 3: have Quincy's phone number. I don't have high hopes, but 419 00:24:28,876 --> 00:24:32,596 Speaker 3: Patt and Quincy do end up speaking, and afterwards, for 420 00:24:32,676 --> 00:24:36,676 Speaker 3: reasons I can't discern, Quincy agrees to speak with Michael. 421 00:24:53,476 --> 00:24:56,676 Speaker 3: A video call between Michael and Quincy is arranged, and 422 00:24:56,756 --> 00:24:59,596 Speaker 3: while we wait for Quincy, I ask Michael the opening 423 00:24:59,676 --> 00:25:04,236 Speaker 3: question I learned in jayschool. Are you in a bathroom? 424 00:25:05,116 --> 00:25:05,356 Speaker 5: Now? 425 00:25:05,396 --> 00:25:08,596 Speaker 8: This is our tiny little kitchen in our apartment. 426 00:25:09,196 --> 00:25:11,356 Speaker 3: It's late at night, and Michael gives me a tour 427 00:25:11,556 --> 00:25:13,236 Speaker 3: of his darkened New York apartment. 428 00:25:13,676 --> 00:25:15,716 Speaker 8: And there's our Carson's little lunchbox. 429 00:25:16,076 --> 00:25:17,676 Speaker 3: Very sweet. Where is he right now? 430 00:25:18,316 --> 00:25:20,276 Speaker 8: Carson is asleep? 431 00:25:20,716 --> 00:25:26,676 Speaker 3: What are lazy bones? And then hello? Quincy enters the chat. 432 00:25:27,476 --> 00:25:29,796 Speaker 3: It's been almost twenty years since he and Michael were 433 00:25:29,836 --> 00:25:32,796 Speaker 3: together on set. Quincy was twenty five at the time. 434 00:25:33,196 --> 00:25:34,436 Speaker 3: He's in his forties now. 435 00:25:34,676 --> 00:25:36,836 Speaker 5: It's nice to see Michael's face. I haven't seen his 436 00:25:36,916 --> 00:25:38,076 Speaker 5: face in a long time, and. 437 00:25:38,076 --> 00:25:38,916 Speaker 8: It was good to see you. 438 00:25:39,796 --> 00:25:42,956 Speaker 3: Michael and Quincy begin by reminiscing about their time together 439 00:25:43,276 --> 00:25:44,596 Speaker 3: about making the movie. 440 00:25:44,636 --> 00:25:46,516 Speaker 5: There were two scenes that really stand up for me. 441 00:25:46,596 --> 00:25:48,236 Speaker 5: One is when all the kids are in the. 442 00:25:48,236 --> 00:25:52,276 Speaker 3: Diner and they exchange memories from what feels like unfraught 443 00:25:52,356 --> 00:25:55,156 Speaker 3: territory stuff like the casting and the fun of being 444 00:25:55,156 --> 00:25:55,876 Speaker 3: on set. 445 00:25:56,116 --> 00:26:00,276 Speaker 8: My favorite scene was doing the U turn. You had 446 00:26:00,316 --> 00:26:05,716 Speaker 8: me drive stick shift and I lied when I auditioned. 447 00:26:05,756 --> 00:26:07,156 Speaker 8: You're like, can you drive stick? And I was like, 448 00:26:07,236 --> 00:26:09,476 Speaker 8: I can drive stick. I couldn't drive stick. I was 449 00:26:09,796 --> 00:26:13,676 Speaker 8: really I never heard that, I know, and I was 450 00:26:13,716 --> 00:26:16,556 Speaker 8: like stalling out, like grinding the gears. 451 00:26:17,476 --> 00:26:20,196 Speaker 3: It feels like Michael is trying to make Quincy comfortable, 452 00:26:20,556 --> 00:26:23,396 Speaker 3: show that Quincy wasn't the only one capable of lie. 453 00:26:26,316 --> 00:26:28,596 Speaker 5: Into the car from like pulling his hair out to 454 00:26:29,076 --> 00:26:30,436 Speaker 5: I thought the kids could drive. 455 00:26:31,316 --> 00:26:34,156 Speaker 3: But it doesn't take long before the conversation turns to 456 00:26:34,236 --> 00:26:37,196 Speaker 3: the elephant in the room and it's Quincy who brings 457 00:26:37,196 --> 00:26:37,516 Speaker 3: it up. 458 00:26:38,076 --> 00:26:40,356 Speaker 5: I remember wanting to reach out to you in years 459 00:26:40,356 --> 00:26:45,556 Speaker 5: that past. Yeah, I felt a lot of guilt because 460 00:26:45,596 --> 00:26:48,716 Speaker 5: like this film, everybody had put so much sweat and 461 00:26:48,996 --> 00:26:53,196 Speaker 5: tears into it, and uh, it was just nothing like evaporated. 462 00:26:53,916 --> 00:26:57,196 Speaker 5: And I thought, my god, I failed every single person, 463 00:26:57,476 --> 00:26:59,836 Speaker 5: and then I became like national news, and then the 464 00:26:59,876 --> 00:27:02,196 Speaker 5: blogs were writing about. 465 00:27:01,876 --> 00:27:08,476 Speaker 3: Me because the Messenger got a colossal amount of press. 466 00:27:08,716 --> 00:27:11,996 Speaker 3: When the truth came out, Quincy received a proportional amount 467 00:27:11,996 --> 00:27:15,076 Speaker 3: of backlash. Similar to how the title wave of The 468 00:27:15,116 --> 00:27:18,996 Speaker 3: Messenger's success hit Michael, the bad news about The Messenger's 469 00:27:19,036 --> 00:27:22,476 Speaker 3: failure hit Quincy. He was at the airport reading that 470 00:27:22,556 --> 00:27:25,116 Speaker 3: day's newspaper over someone's shoulder and. 471 00:27:25,116 --> 00:27:27,316 Speaker 5: They were reading the article about me and how I 472 00:27:27,356 --> 00:27:34,156 Speaker 5: had lied, and that hit me like I'd say a 473 00:27:34,196 --> 00:27:35,716 Speaker 5: ton of bricks, but a ton of bricks would have 474 00:27:35,716 --> 00:27:37,556 Speaker 5: felt like a pillow compared to what that was. 475 00:27:38,476 --> 00:27:39,356 Speaker 3: How are you coping? 476 00:27:40,916 --> 00:27:43,396 Speaker 5: I was in denial. I kept going back to this 477 00:27:43,556 --> 00:27:47,796 Speaker 5: like excuse of well, the Titanic, right, the Titanic, it's 478 00:27:47,796 --> 00:27:49,836 Speaker 5: a fake movie. It's based on a true story. There 479 00:27:49,876 --> 00:27:52,236 Speaker 5: was no Jack and Rose, and yet what I had 480 00:27:52,236 --> 00:27:55,796 Speaker 5: done was totally different. I mean I was literally trying 481 00:27:55,796 --> 00:27:59,156 Speaker 5: to pretend that this other actor i'd hired was Thomas Jones. 482 00:27:59,756 --> 00:28:03,676 Speaker 5: And it took me a year or two to sort 483 00:28:03,716 --> 00:28:06,276 Speaker 5: of come to terms and just be like, man, I 484 00:28:06,356 --> 00:28:07,476 Speaker 5: really fucked up. 485 00:28:08,316 --> 00:28:12,116 Speaker 3: Which brings us the question of why why swap a 486 00:28:12,196 --> 00:28:16,476 Speaker 3: random old man for Thomas E. Jones. To explain, Quincy 487 00:28:16,516 --> 00:28:18,356 Speaker 3: starts with how he came to the story of The 488 00:28:18,396 --> 00:28:19,956 Speaker 3: Messenger in the first place. 489 00:28:20,396 --> 00:28:22,596 Speaker 5: I'd been working that summer at the Truman Little White 490 00:28:22,596 --> 00:28:26,356 Speaker 5: House in QS and sort of in my onboarding at 491 00:28:26,396 --> 00:28:30,236 Speaker 5: that museum, they told us to read David McCullough's Truman biography, 492 00:28:31,036 --> 00:28:33,516 Speaker 5: and it was in that book that I saw this 493 00:28:33,636 --> 00:28:35,636 Speaker 5: one sentence about Thomas E. 494 00:28:35,756 --> 00:28:38,876 Speaker 3: Jones and The Messenger, And it was literally one sentence, 495 00:28:39,356 --> 00:28:42,476 Speaker 3: one sentence in parentheses, in the middle of a thousand 496 00:28:42,556 --> 00:28:43,116 Speaker 3: page book. 497 00:28:43,516 --> 00:28:45,916 Speaker 5: And I thought, God, what an amazing story. 498 00:28:46,676 --> 00:28:49,236 Speaker 3: But Quincy thought, you know what would make it an 499 00:28:49,276 --> 00:28:53,076 Speaker 3: even more amazing story if he could find Thomas E. Jones, 500 00:28:53,356 --> 00:28:56,916 Speaker 3: interview him, and include that interview in the movie. And 501 00:28:56,956 --> 00:28:59,916 Speaker 3: in Quincy's telling, he did look for Thomas Jones. 502 00:29:00,396 --> 00:29:05,716 Speaker 5: I had hired literal investigators to go find this person, 503 00:29:06,116 --> 00:29:09,436 Speaker 5: two different guys, and they both said, like, you know, 504 00:29:09,476 --> 00:29:11,596 Speaker 5: we can't, we can't find them, but we found these 505 00:29:11,636 --> 00:29:13,676 Speaker 5: two death certificates that kind of match up. 506 00:29:14,276 --> 00:29:17,956 Speaker 3: So the death certificates felt like enough. Quincy concluded that 507 00:29:17,996 --> 00:29:21,396 Speaker 3: the Thomas E. Jones he was looking for probably was dead. 508 00:29:21,396 --> 00:29:23,796 Speaker 5: And I didn't share that with anybody because in my 509 00:29:23,836 --> 00:29:25,516 Speaker 5: head I just saw the story rolling out. It's like 510 00:29:25,516 --> 00:29:26,716 Speaker 5: we were going to tell the story and then the 511 00:29:26,796 --> 00:29:29,876 Speaker 5: end you saw the real guy and that I couldn't 512 00:29:30,156 --> 00:29:31,836 Speaker 5: get away from that story. 513 00:29:32,636 --> 00:29:35,116 Speaker 3: And in the absence of the real guy, the next 514 00:29:35,196 --> 00:29:36,916 Speaker 3: best thing was a fake guy. 515 00:29:37,516 --> 00:29:40,676 Speaker 5: Oh well, to decease Thomas Jones will never know and 516 00:29:40,716 --> 00:29:42,716 Speaker 5: anybody that sees the movie, it's gonna be so great 517 00:29:42,756 --> 00:29:44,756 Speaker 5: and they're gonna be crying and laughing at the end 518 00:29:44,796 --> 00:29:47,556 Speaker 5: of it that they won't care for this role. 519 00:29:47,796 --> 00:29:51,596 Speaker 3: There was no casting, no auditions. In fact, the part 520 00:29:51,596 --> 00:29:54,236 Speaker 3: of Thomas E. Jones wasn't played by an actor at all. 521 00:29:54,956 --> 00:29:58,436 Speaker 5: He was actually a tour guide at the Truman Little 522 00:29:58,476 --> 00:29:59,036 Speaker 5: White House. 523 00:29:59,636 --> 00:30:02,196 Speaker 3: Quincy had asked a work friend from the museum to 524 00:30:02,276 --> 00:30:05,516 Speaker 3: do the job. 525 00:30:05,356 --> 00:30:08,716 Speaker 5: And then the real Thomas Jones found me and I 526 00:30:09,436 --> 00:30:13,116 Speaker 5: remember that feeling. It was like a disgust I felt 527 00:30:13,116 --> 00:30:13,796 Speaker 5: for myself. 528 00:30:17,676 --> 00:30:20,916 Speaker 3: In the aftermath, Quincy left the film world for many years. 529 00:30:21,356 --> 00:30:23,636 Speaker 3: He was fired from his job at the Truman Museum. 530 00:30:24,076 --> 00:30:27,156 Speaker 3: He eventually found work clerking in a bookstore and making 531 00:30:27,156 --> 00:30:30,676 Speaker 3: wedding videos. Well, this was the first time a live 532 00:30:30,796 --> 00:30:34,116 Speaker 3: Quincy's had been so brutally exposed. He admits that the 533 00:30:34,196 --> 00:30:37,236 Speaker 3: lying itself was something he'd been leaning on since his 534 00:30:37,316 --> 00:30:37,916 Speaker 3: teen years. 535 00:30:38,356 --> 00:30:40,316 Speaker 5: You know, I had come from a fairly poor family 536 00:30:40,356 --> 00:30:44,316 Speaker 5: in Key West, and I had attended a very exclusive 537 00:30:44,356 --> 00:30:48,036 Speaker 5: prep school up in western Massachusetts called Deerfield Academy, where 538 00:30:48,076 --> 00:30:51,156 Speaker 5: I had no business being there, and so I felt 539 00:30:51,156 --> 00:30:56,436 Speaker 5: this sense of just like always needing to exaggerate. People 540 00:30:56,436 --> 00:30:58,756 Speaker 5: would be like, oh, I'm going to Paris for winter break, 541 00:30:58,756 --> 00:31:01,156 Speaker 5: and I'd be like, oh, gosh, yeah, Paris, It's great. 542 00:31:01,876 --> 00:31:03,836 Speaker 5: You know, I didn't even know what country it was in. 543 00:31:06,396 --> 00:31:09,916 Speaker 5: It was like a daily thing. Freshman. Someone had to 544 00:31:09,956 --> 00:31:13,316 Speaker 5: picture Jimmy Hendrix a poster, and I remember looking at 545 00:31:13,356 --> 00:31:15,716 Speaker 5: his name and thinking it looked kind of French, and 546 00:31:15,756 --> 00:31:20,116 Speaker 5: I was like, oh, I love gy My Hendrye. And 547 00:31:20,196 --> 00:31:22,716 Speaker 5: I remember him looking at me and being like what. 548 00:31:26,036 --> 00:31:29,596 Speaker 3: For Quincy. Lies became a beautiful wall between himself and 549 00:31:29,636 --> 00:31:34,556 Speaker 3: everyone else. Lies protected him but also isolated him. It 550 00:31:34,596 --> 00:31:37,356 Speaker 3: took the collapse of the Messenger to finally get him 551 00:31:37,356 --> 00:31:38,356 Speaker 3: to stop. 552 00:31:38,396 --> 00:31:42,956 Speaker 5: And it was actually very relieving because it took a 553 00:31:42,956 --> 00:31:44,756 Speaker 5: lot of weight off my shoulders that I didn't have 554 00:31:44,836 --> 00:31:47,276 Speaker 5: to make every story ten percent better. I didn't have 555 00:31:47,316 --> 00:31:50,956 Speaker 5: to do as hard as that was. That was the 556 00:31:50,996 --> 00:31:57,876 Speaker 5: most important, lesson, full stop period of my life. 557 00:32:01,396 --> 00:32:04,996 Speaker 8: After we did The Messenger, I didn't take that as 558 00:32:05,436 --> 00:32:06,636 Speaker 8: anything that stopped me. 559 00:32:07,476 --> 00:32:10,476 Speaker 3: When Quincy is done sharing the effect The Messenger had 560 00:32:10,516 --> 00:32:13,316 Speaker 3: on his life, Michael shares the role that played for him. 561 00:32:13,636 --> 00:32:17,436 Speaker 8: Seeing the camera, seeing the crew, it blew my mind. 562 00:32:18,116 --> 00:32:20,796 Speaker 8: I didn't know that this was possible. I didn't know 563 00:32:20,916 --> 00:32:23,836 Speaker 8: that this is what it looked like. And I was in. 564 00:32:24,676 --> 00:32:28,316 Speaker 3: It's Quincy and The Messenger that inspired Michael's career. But 565 00:32:28,396 --> 00:32:30,876 Speaker 3: it isn't just that Quincy gave him a professional life. 566 00:32:31,556 --> 00:32:32,716 Speaker 3: He gave him a life. 567 00:32:33,196 --> 00:32:37,796 Speaker 8: I married this beautiful person who she's a movie producer, 568 00:32:38,156 --> 00:32:41,956 Speaker 8: and we have this amazing kid called Carson who's two 569 00:32:41,996 --> 00:32:44,956 Speaker 8: and a half years old. And all of this life 570 00:32:44,996 --> 00:32:48,036 Speaker 8: that I have, this partner, of this career, this kid, 571 00:32:49,196 --> 00:32:52,956 Speaker 8: it comes from this wild, weird, random moment in Cleveland, 572 00:32:52,956 --> 00:32:56,236 Speaker 8: Ohio where you decided to cast me in this short film. 573 00:32:56,236 --> 00:32:59,796 Speaker 8: And it's all this to say, like I never got 574 00:32:59,836 --> 00:33:05,196 Speaker 8: to just thank you. I've always appreciated that door that 575 00:33:05,236 --> 00:33:07,636 Speaker 8: you showed to me and allowed me to walk through 576 00:33:09,236 --> 00:33:13,156 Speaker 8: moment that time, that invitation that you gave me to 577 00:33:13,196 --> 00:33:17,476 Speaker 8: be on set changed the entire direction of my life. 578 00:33:22,676 --> 00:33:28,276 Speaker 5: That means a lot to me. I I look back 579 00:33:28,276 --> 00:33:32,796 Speaker 5: on that time and totally with totally different eyes. It 580 00:33:32,956 --> 00:33:37,036 Speaker 5: was one of the most difficult things in my life. 581 00:33:37,156 --> 00:33:43,156 Speaker 5: And I can't tell you like how meaningful it is 582 00:33:43,196 --> 00:33:46,716 Speaker 5: to me to hear that someone had something good come 583 00:33:46,716 --> 00:33:49,276 Speaker 5: out of it, because it certainly didn't feel like that. 584 00:33:51,116 --> 00:33:57,796 Speaker 5: I was convinced that it would ruin everyone's life, because 585 00:33:57,796 --> 00:33:59,436 Speaker 5: that's what I was feeling at that moment. 586 00:34:00,996 --> 00:34:04,636 Speaker 3: Quincy just assumed anyone involved with the Messenger would still 587 00:34:04,676 --> 00:34:07,836 Speaker 3: be furious with him, and so a few weeks back, 588 00:34:07,876 --> 00:34:10,596 Speaker 3: when he saw Pat Croche's name pop up on his phone, 589 00:34:10,956 --> 00:34:13,116 Speaker 3: he says he almost felt too scared to pick up, 590 00:34:13,796 --> 00:34:16,796 Speaker 3: but when they spoke, instead of yelling at him, Pat 591 00:34:16,796 --> 00:34:18,476 Speaker 3: told him it was time to let it go. 592 00:34:18,996 --> 00:34:20,876 Speaker 5: As soon as he said that those words let it go, 593 00:34:21,636 --> 00:34:23,756 Speaker 5: I just sat out in front of my house and 594 00:34:24,276 --> 00:34:29,836 Speaker 5: cried for a good twenty minutes. I didn't know before 595 00:34:29,876 --> 00:34:33,316 Speaker 5: we talked today, actually genuinely what you were going to 596 00:34:33,396 --> 00:34:35,276 Speaker 5: say today. 597 00:34:35,956 --> 00:34:38,316 Speaker 8: You know you were I met you as this person 598 00:34:38,356 --> 00:34:39,076 Speaker 8: I looked up to. 599 00:34:40,596 --> 00:34:46,476 Speaker 5: You're gonna make me cry. I'm really, really genuinely happy 600 00:34:46,516 --> 00:34:46,756 Speaker 5: for you. 601 00:34:48,836 --> 00:34:50,716 Speaker 8: Thank you for taking time just to talk to me, 602 00:34:50,836 --> 00:34:55,516 Speaker 8: but really thank you for the life I got to 603 00:34:55,556 --> 00:34:56,356 Speaker 8: have because of it. 604 00:35:03,076 --> 00:35:06,516 Speaker 3: Recently I got to share in that life. One day, 605 00:35:06,636 --> 00:35:09,276 Speaker 3: leaving our New York studio, Michael says he's af to 606 00:35:09,316 --> 00:35:12,236 Speaker 3: meet his wife Katie. Her crew is filming just a 607 00:35:12,276 --> 00:35:15,556 Speaker 3: few blocks away, and Michael asks if I'd like to come, 608 00:35:15,876 --> 00:35:20,916 Speaker 3: and I say sure. On the corner of twentieth Street 609 00:35:20,956 --> 00:35:24,756 Speaker 3: and Seventh Avenue, shooting is in full swing. The movie 610 00:35:24,796 --> 00:35:28,196 Speaker 3: stars John Taturo as an aging pickpocket who ends up 611 00:35:28,236 --> 00:35:30,996 Speaker 3: with a thumb drive containing a crypto wallet on it. 612 00:35:31,796 --> 00:35:34,956 Speaker 3: Michael and I are waved past the protected perimeter and 613 00:35:35,036 --> 00:35:38,076 Speaker 3: Katie gives me a pair of small headphones. As I 614 00:35:38,116 --> 00:35:41,396 Speaker 3: watch take after take of John Totruro slamming down a 615 00:35:41,436 --> 00:35:45,316 Speaker 3: payphone and screaming fuck in fake fury, I feel like 616 00:35:45,356 --> 00:35:48,836 Speaker 3: a ten year old on a field trip. All around us, 617 00:35:48,916 --> 00:35:51,796 Speaker 3: the city bustles as normal while we are tucked away 618 00:35:51,956 --> 00:35:57,676 Speaker 3: in our make believe world, watching make believe things. It's 619 00:35:57,676 --> 00:36:00,756 Speaker 3: all a lie, of course, but one that we're all 620 00:36:00,796 --> 00:36:01,356 Speaker 3: in on. 621 00:36:01,716 --> 00:36:41,396 Speaker 1: And how good now that the fern ures Riff turning 622 00:36:41,556 --> 00:36:42,276 Speaker 1: to its. 623 00:36:42,156 --> 00:36:51,436 Speaker 4: Goodwill home, now that the last month's rent is scheming. 624 00:36:50,796 --> 00:36:55,676 Speaker 6: With the damage to posit take this moment to dissolve. 625 00:36:57,716 --> 00:36:59,916 Speaker 5: If we ment, if we tried to. 626 00:37:01,716 --> 00:37:05,516 Speaker 7: Remember felt around for far tis. 627 00:37:06,596 --> 00:37:08,436 Speaker 1: From things that accidentally. 628 00:37:13,756 --> 00:37:16,796 Speaker 3: This episode of Heavyweight was produced by Khalila Holt and 629 00:37:16,836 --> 00:37:20,996 Speaker 3: me Jonathan Goldstein, along with Moheeney mcgauker and Phoebe Flanagan. 630 00:37:21,276 --> 00:37:25,836 Speaker 3: Our supervising producer is Stevie Lane. Editorial guidance from Emily Condon. 631 00:37:26,076 --> 00:37:30,116 Speaker 3: Special thanks to Lucy Sullivan, Karen Schakerji and Nazanin RAFs 632 00:37:30,156 --> 00:37:34,316 Speaker 3: and Johnny Our production council is Jake Flanagan. Emmamonger mixed 633 00:37:34,356 --> 00:37:37,356 Speaker 3: the episode with original music by Christine Fellows, John K. 634 00:37:37,516 --> 00:37:41,196 Speaker 3: Sampson and Bobby Lord. Additional scoring by Blue Dot Sessions, 635 00:37:41,276 --> 00:37:45,956 Speaker 3: Bobble Principal and Shanghai Restoration Project. Our theme song is 636 00:37:45,956 --> 00:37:49,156 Speaker 3: by The Weakerlands, courtesy of Epitaph Records. Follow us on 637 00:37:49,236 --> 00:37:52,796 Speaker 3: Instagram at Heavyweight Podcast or email us at Heavyweight at 638 00:37:52,796 --> 00:37:56,196 Speaker 3: Pushkin dot Fm. We'll be back next week with a 639 00:37:56,276 --> 00:37:58,076 Speaker 3: new episode.