1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:04,720 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 2 00:00:04,840 --> 00:00:09,119 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:12,160 Speaker 1: learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A 4 00:00:12,280 --> 00:00:13,960 Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio. 5 00:00:24,239 --> 00:00:28,400 Speaker 2: Hello, Welcome back to the show. Our colleague Noel continues 6 00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:29,600 Speaker 2: to do his duty. 7 00:00:30,120 --> 00:00:34,400 Speaker 3: Doody, you're Matt. They called me Ben. We're joined again 8 00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:37,800 Speaker 3: with our guest superproducer, Max white Pants Williams. 9 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:39,320 Speaker 4: Most importantly, you are you. 10 00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:39,840 Speaker 2: You are here. 11 00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:42,839 Speaker 3: That makes this the stuff they don't want you to 12 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:47,320 Speaker 3: know a rare two parter because there are many, many, many, 13 00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:50,720 Speaker 3: many many things that we have to get to Matt, 14 00:00:51,120 --> 00:00:53,000 Speaker 3: as we're talking about off air. 15 00:00:53,800 --> 00:00:54,760 Speaker 4: Perhaps the most. 16 00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:59,680 Speaker 3: Important thing here, folks is please listen to our earlier episode, 17 00:00:59,720 --> 00:01:05,400 Speaker 3: part one on Project for a New American Century, and Matt, 18 00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:09,640 Speaker 3: what better way to start off than to give maybe 19 00:01:09,880 --> 00:01:13,280 Speaker 3: a quick recap ends a shout out to some of 20 00:01:13,319 --> 00:01:16,920 Speaker 3: the articles that we have been reading from the early 21 00:01:16,959 --> 00:01:19,319 Speaker 3: two thousands, well from two thousand. 22 00:01:19,400 --> 00:01:23,360 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, let's start by giving you how about a 23 00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:25,919 Speaker 2: description of the Project from the New American Century written 24 00:01:25,959 --> 00:01:29,440 Speaker 2: by Thomas Donnelly, Donald Kagan, and Gary Schmidt, some of 25 00:01:29,480 --> 00:01:34,679 Speaker 2: the founders of the organization. This is from Rebuilding America's Defenses, 26 00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:36,440 Speaker 2: published in September two thousand. 27 00:01:37,600 --> 00:01:38,080 Speaker 4: Quote. 28 00:01:38,360 --> 00:01:40,919 Speaker 2: Established in the spring of nineteen ninety seven, the Project 29 00:01:40,959 --> 00:01:44,600 Speaker 2: for the New American Century is a nonprofit educational organization 30 00:01:44,640 --> 00:01:48,480 Speaker 2: whose goal is to promote American global leadership. It's an 31 00:01:48,520 --> 00:01:53,280 Speaker 2: initiative of the New Citizenship Project. I don't know what 32 00:01:53,360 --> 00:01:56,000 Speaker 2: that is. I don't know what that is, but here's 33 00:01:56,040 --> 00:02:01,480 Speaker 2: the major quote from that section. As the twentieth century 34 00:02:01,560 --> 00:02:04,520 Speaker 2: draws to a close, the United States stands as the 35 00:02:04,520 --> 00:02:08,240 Speaker 2: world's most preeminent power, having led the West to victory 36 00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:12,200 Speaker 2: in the Cold War, America faces an opportunity and a challenge. 37 00:02:12,639 --> 00:02:15,560 Speaker 2: Does the United States have the vision to build upon 38 00:02:15,639 --> 00:02:19,040 Speaker 2: the achievement of past decades. Does the United States have 39 00:02:19,120 --> 00:02:23,040 Speaker 2: the resolve to shape a new century favorable to American 40 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:28,040 Speaker 2: principles and interests. That's what this paper is about, answering 41 00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:30,880 Speaker 2: those questions, and that is the Project for a New 42 00:02:30,880 --> 00:02:35,519 Speaker 2: American Century. It's a think tank for people who are 43 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:41,040 Speaker 2: really all about defense and an ideological powerful America that 44 00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:43,919 Speaker 2: kind of is the police force of the world. 45 00:02:44,200 --> 00:02:48,680 Speaker 3: Here are the facts, so brief recap. Back in back 46 00:02:48,760 --> 00:02:52,520 Speaker 3: in the late nineties, the Project for a New American 47 00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:57,480 Speaker 3: Century was started as a way to push this vision 48 00:02:57,720 --> 00:03:00,720 Speaker 3: you're describing that out into the world and take it 49 00:03:00,840 --> 00:03:06,079 Speaker 3: from the realm of academia and theory into actual on 50 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:10,880 Speaker 3: the ground policy. This was something that found a great 51 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:15,600 Speaker 3: deal of support, especially in conservative circles of American politics. 52 00:03:16,280 --> 00:03:21,480 Speaker 3: It also came about as a culmination of fears and 53 00:03:21,639 --> 00:03:26,360 Speaker 3: concerns that date back well before what we call the 54 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:30,000 Speaker 3: Cold War. There is a long narrative thread here, and 55 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:33,520 Speaker 3: as we mentioned at the close of part one, we 56 00:03:33,880 --> 00:03:38,840 Speaker 3: are going to talk as objectively as possible about the 57 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:43,080 Speaker 3: events of September eleventh, two thousand and one terrorist attacks 58 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:48,920 Speaker 3: on the United States. The conventional explanation for US action 59 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:52,320 Speaker 3: after nine to eleven. We're going to spend a lot 60 00:03:52,360 --> 00:03:56,520 Speaker 3: of time on the aftermath here. The conventional explanation goes 61 00:03:56,600 --> 00:04:00,080 Speaker 3: something like this. After the Twin Towers are hit in 62 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:04,520 Speaker 3: New York. After the attack on DC, retaliation against al 63 00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:10,880 Speaker 3: Qaeda bases in Afghanistan was seen as an immediate step, 64 00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:15,280 Speaker 3: but only a first step in a staircase really a 65 00:04:15,320 --> 00:04:20,080 Speaker 3: global war against terrorism. Now, the United States for some 66 00:04:20,279 --> 00:04:24,040 Speaker 3: time has been fascinated with the concept of waging a 67 00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:28,280 Speaker 3: war on ideas, a war on drugs, a war on poverty, 68 00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:31,279 Speaker 3: very short lived, it didn't test well with the base. 69 00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:35,640 Speaker 3: And then of course a war on terrorism. And you 70 00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:38,799 Speaker 3: mentioned Matt earlier in part one, the idea of weapons 71 00:04:38,839 --> 00:04:43,960 Speaker 3: of mass destruction, the infamous moment wherein Colin Powell testifies 72 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:48,279 Speaker 3: that there is yellow cake uranium controlled by the Saddam 73 00:04:48,360 --> 00:04:53,159 Speaker 3: Hussein regime in Iraq. This also gets support from the 74 00:04:53,279 --> 00:04:56,760 Speaker 3: United Kingdom. They co sign these statements. 75 00:04:56,600 --> 00:04:58,280 Speaker 2: And don't forget the aluminum tubes. 76 00:04:58,640 --> 00:05:01,240 Speaker 3: Oh, the aluminum to Yeah, you know what, the aluminum 77 00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:04,960 Speaker 3: tubes everywhere and shout out to some great most def 78 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:09,080 Speaker 3: Dave Chappelle sketches about this as well. So the idea 79 00:05:09,240 --> 00:05:12,839 Speaker 3: was that, yes, the base of America, the American public 80 00:05:13,320 --> 00:05:19,080 Speaker 3: is incredibly freaked out. This is horrific. They want someone 81 00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:24,200 Speaker 3: to fight. There needs to be justice done, a very valid, 82 00:05:24,560 --> 00:05:31,400 Speaker 3: very reasonable reaction. And the PNAC says, this is our opportunity, 83 00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:34,280 Speaker 3: this is what we were talking about. This is our 84 00:05:34,360 --> 00:05:40,000 Speaker 3: stepping stone, it's our door into further action abroad in Iraq. 85 00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:45,680 Speaker 2: Well, because remember their aims all along have been to 86 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:51,640 Speaker 2: increase defense spending overall within the United States budget to 87 00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:56,800 Speaker 2: make sure the United States is the most powerful weaponized 88 00:05:56,880 --> 00:06:01,560 Speaker 2: country that can dominate every back ground they are met 89 00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:05,200 Speaker 2: in right the land, the sea, the air, and even space. 90 00:06:05,320 --> 00:06:09,080 Speaker 2: Is what they're advocating for at this time, right before 91 00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:11,400 Speaker 2: and immediately following the. 92 00:06:11,320 --> 00:06:15,400 Speaker 3: Attacks, and by this time in the aftermath of the attacks, 93 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:21,400 Speaker 3: large principal characters in the PNAC are in positions of 94 00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:25,360 Speaker 3: power to make those decisions to enact the theories that 95 00:06:25,400 --> 00:06:28,920 Speaker 3: they have spent so much time ideating. A pod to 96 00:06:29,080 --> 00:06:35,719 Speaker 3: this day, right now, you can look back at various 97 00:06:35,720 --> 00:06:39,440 Speaker 3: statements that did not age well. The idea that invading 98 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:43,480 Speaker 3: Iraq was a natural response to the attacks, despite the 99 00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:49,359 Speaker 3: fact that the hijackers were Saudi Arabian in origin, despite 100 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:53,600 Speaker 3: the fact that al Qaeda is not located in Iraq, 101 00:06:54,440 --> 00:06:59,640 Speaker 3: and people are saying people were saying, you know, this 102 00:06:59,720 --> 00:07:03,400 Speaker 3: theory this ad to zed that you're writing out in 103 00:07:03,440 --> 00:07:06,720 Speaker 3: this narrative, it simply doesn't add up. And a lot 104 00:07:06,760 --> 00:07:08,960 Speaker 3: of people who raise their voices at that time were 105 00:07:09,080 --> 00:07:13,600 Speaker 3: excoriated for saying this, and to this day, more than 106 00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:18,360 Speaker 3: two decades later, a lot of troubling questions remain. You know, 107 00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:22,960 Speaker 3: was like critics say, the p and AC was waiting 108 00:07:23,440 --> 00:07:26,440 Speaker 3: for their pearl. Harbor was waiting for that opportune moment, 109 00:07:26,480 --> 00:07:29,480 Speaker 3: the right sequence of events to fall into place, just 110 00:07:29,560 --> 00:07:33,840 Speaker 3: like some sort of grisly game of dominoes. And it 111 00:07:33,920 --> 00:07:37,680 Speaker 3: even leads the more far out fringe you could call 112 00:07:37,720 --> 00:07:41,480 Speaker 3: them questions in the crowd. It leads to more far 113 00:07:41,520 --> 00:07:45,840 Speaker 3: out questions such as how far would these very powerful 114 00:07:45,880 --> 00:07:50,640 Speaker 3: people go to remake the world in their vision. Here's 115 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:54,880 Speaker 3: where it gets crazy, Matt. You made a fantastic point 116 00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:59,600 Speaker 3: off air a couple months back when we were talking 117 00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:05,120 Speaker 3: about looking through our old YouTube videos and sometimes I 118 00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:06,720 Speaker 3: forget we have quite a lot of them. 119 00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:10,880 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, no, yeah, let's go in and restate that here. 120 00:08:11,080 --> 00:08:15,880 Speaker 2: So back in November last year, twenty twenty three, we 121 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:20,280 Speaker 2: noticed that our twenty fourteen videos, we made two major 122 00:08:20,320 --> 00:08:24,600 Speaker 2: ones back in twenty fourteen on our YouTube channel about 123 00:08:24,640 --> 00:08:28,760 Speaker 2: the September eleven attacks. One was called thirteen burning Questions 124 00:08:28,760 --> 00:08:34,160 Speaker 2: about nine to eleven. That's basically ben stating big questions 125 00:08:34,200 --> 00:08:36,840 Speaker 2: that we still have about the attacks, right, and it's 126 00:08:36,880 --> 00:08:38,960 Speaker 2: just kind of stating them and then setting up our 127 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:41,800 Speaker 2: next video saying we're going to spend a whole video 128 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:45,920 Speaker 2: on World Trade Center building seven and the collapse of 129 00:08:45,920 --> 00:08:48,560 Speaker 2: that building, as it is the third building that collapsed 130 00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:50,520 Speaker 2: there in New York City on that day or I 131 00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:54,640 Speaker 2: guess like after the initial attacks. So we made another 132 00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:58,319 Speaker 2: video titled what Happened to seven World Trade Center, and 133 00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:04,240 Speaker 2: we realized you could not type into Google those titles 134 00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:07,720 Speaker 2: in quotations, which is one of the most surefire ways 135 00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:11,200 Speaker 2: to find a video or any piece of content. Put 136 00:09:11,280 --> 00:09:14,959 Speaker 2: quotation marks around the exact title and you can generally 137 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:18,680 Speaker 2: find something. It could not find our videos, so we 138 00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:22,240 Speaker 2: searched YouTube. Those videos could not be found. Then we 139 00:09:22,280 --> 00:09:25,440 Speaker 2: searched within our own YouTube channel because there's a function 140 00:09:25,520 --> 00:09:27,680 Speaker 2: there on YouTube to search for that, and they could 141 00:09:27,720 --> 00:09:30,880 Speaker 2: not be found. And we realized you had to browse 142 00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:34,480 Speaker 2: like by date basically to find them, as they were 143 00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:38,280 Speaker 2: still live. They were still there, still viewable. You just 144 00:09:38,320 --> 00:09:41,160 Speaker 2: wouldn't be able to find them unless you, I guess 145 00:09:41,240 --> 00:09:45,560 Speaker 2: navigated to them directly. We thought that was pretty weird 146 00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:48,880 Speaker 2: because together both videos had over three hundred and thirty 147 00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:53,960 Speaker 2: thousand views, which meant, you know, they're not viral, but 148 00:09:54,160 --> 00:09:58,880 Speaker 2: they're well viewed videos. It didn't make sense to us, 149 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:01,920 Speaker 2: and actually, see if you go on if you go 150 00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:04,440 Speaker 2: on those videos. You look at the comments, the newest 151 00:10:04,480 --> 00:10:08,120 Speaker 2: comments from about starting about seven or six years six 152 00:10:08,200 --> 00:10:11,480 Speaker 2: or seven years ago, it's all about Hey, it seems 153 00:10:11,520 --> 00:10:14,480 Speaker 2: like these nine to eleven videos are getting scrubbed from 154 00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:17,440 Speaker 2: the internet. Can't really find them anymore. 155 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:23,760 Speaker 3: Which is which is strange because we make no outrageous 156 00:10:23,760 --> 00:10:26,960 Speaker 3: claims in those videos we take we take a lot 157 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:31,560 Speaker 3: of care to be as as objective as possible in anything, 158 00:10:31,640 --> 00:10:36,400 Speaker 3: but especially with that we also, for the record, folks, 159 00:10:36,679 --> 00:10:41,079 Speaker 3: we do not include any hate speech, no no vilification 160 00:10:41,520 --> 00:10:46,440 Speaker 3: of demographics, no calls for violence, none of the usual 161 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:50,640 Speaker 3: red flags for YouTube. Also, by the way, I think 162 00:10:50,679 --> 00:10:53,000 Speaker 3: this is this is around the same time as a 163 00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:56,240 Speaker 3: little Inside Baseball. This is around the same time you 164 00:10:56,320 --> 00:10:59,400 Speaker 3: and I had to take like a YouTube academy course 165 00:10:59,679 --> 00:11:02,360 Speaker 3: about the right way to do videos. 166 00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:04,640 Speaker 2: When we published them in twenty fourteen. 167 00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:10,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, and we were going by the book very much. So, 168 00:11:10,880 --> 00:11:14,440 Speaker 3: if anything, the criticism you could give the two of 169 00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:17,040 Speaker 3: us on that is that we were maybe overly cautious, 170 00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:20,800 Speaker 3: maybe I don't know, but we did a good faith 171 00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:24,760 Speaker 3: effort and still even now I would argue this is 172 00:11:24,920 --> 00:11:32,520 Speaker 3: indicative of us stunning and strange disconnect regarding the events 173 00:11:32,559 --> 00:11:36,640 Speaker 3: of nine to eleven and its aftermath, Questioning the official 174 00:11:36,720 --> 00:11:41,880 Speaker 3: narrative was portrayed as severely across the board on American 175 00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:48,720 Speaker 3: conflicting reports, rationale statements that came from US bodies and 176 00:11:49,040 --> 00:11:53,840 Speaker 3: US public officials were often dismissed as fog of war, 177 00:11:54,240 --> 00:11:56,560 Speaker 3: you know, don't look at the left hand, watch what 178 00:11:56,600 --> 00:12:00,800 Speaker 3: the right hand's doing. Or if those statements indeed tradicted 179 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:04,640 Speaker 3: one another in a narrative when they came into conflict, 180 00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:08,520 Speaker 3: then they were dismissed and you had just sort of 181 00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:13,679 Speaker 3: choose one, and now this person misspoke or they were misinformed. 182 00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:18,920 Speaker 3: History was being edited in real time, and sometimes those 183 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:23,680 Speaker 3: claims came into conflict with facts, you know, like we 184 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:27,000 Speaker 3: mentioned the yellow cake uranium, the claims of weapons of 185 00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:32,880 Speaker 3: mass destruction as evidenced by aluminum tubes, all of which, 186 00:12:33,040 --> 00:12:37,880 Speaker 3: by the way, were later disproven there were not WMDs, 187 00:12:38,320 --> 00:12:40,960 Speaker 3: at least not the kind that were described to the 188 00:12:40,960 --> 00:12:46,640 Speaker 3: American public. And then sweep, sweep, sweep, right under the rug. 189 00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:50,840 Speaker 2: It goes well, yeah, it goes back to something you said, Ben. 190 00:12:51,679 --> 00:12:55,319 Speaker 2: It really depends on how far you were willing to take. 191 00:12:56,200 --> 00:13:02,839 Speaker 2: Some very on the surface objective strange coincidences, and how 192 00:13:02,880 --> 00:13:05,679 Speaker 2: closely you're willing to knit those together to form a 193 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:09,920 Speaker 2: larger narrative, right, And how dark is that narrative that 194 00:13:09,960 --> 00:13:13,240 Speaker 2: you're willing to create, right, Because you can go through 195 00:13:13,520 --> 00:13:16,000 Speaker 2: and look at the Project for the New American Centuries 196 00:13:16,160 --> 00:13:21,959 Speaker 2: publications is specifically when they're referencing people who are in 197 00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:26,720 Speaker 2: power at the time they initially gain power, and then 198 00:13:26,880 --> 00:13:29,520 Speaker 2: what the Project for the New American Century wants to 199 00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:33,719 Speaker 2: see happen within the White House and the Defense Department. 200 00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:37,199 Speaker 2: You can look this one up right now if you 201 00:13:37,240 --> 00:13:39,040 Speaker 2: want to. We won't read the whole thing, but it's 202 00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:44,439 Speaker 2: titled Calculating the Rumsfeld Effect. It was written by Robert Kagan, 203 00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:47,679 Speaker 2: who was one of the one of the big writers 204 00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:51,600 Speaker 2: they're at PNAC writing for the Washington Post. He would 205 00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:55,679 Speaker 2: often write opinion pieces that would be kind of circulated 206 00:13:55,720 --> 00:13:58,440 Speaker 2: by the PNAC and written by somebody who's a member, 207 00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:01,440 Speaker 2: you know, of high standing. But it's written ultimately for 208 00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:08,080 Speaker 2: the Washington Post about specifically about how what effect Donald 209 00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:14,200 Speaker 2: Drumsfeld is going to have on the overall outlook of 210 00:14:14,280 --> 00:14:18,800 Speaker 2: defense spending and strategy because of his new position, as 211 00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:25,240 Speaker 2: well as Paul Wolfowitz, they this person. Robert Kagan refers 212 00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:29,040 Speaker 2: to both of them as missile defense hawks and then 213 00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:32,920 Speaker 2: calls out Colin Powell for being a skeptic of a 214 00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:36,400 Speaker 2: lot of the strategies that the PNAC and Robert Kagan 215 00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:40,240 Speaker 2: want to see in place. They you know, and they 216 00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:43,280 Speaker 2: even call out Dick Cheney, and you call it like, well, 217 00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:45,600 Speaker 2: how much you know, basically how much power will Dick 218 00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:50,240 Speaker 2: Cheney actually be wielding within his position at the White House, 219 00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:55,160 Speaker 2: Which is like stuff that to me, they're writing about 220 00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:57,760 Speaker 2: this stuff that feels like when we look back at 221 00:14:57,840 --> 00:15:01,240 Speaker 2: the way we've created narratives about out these moments in 222 00:15:01,280 --> 00:15:04,960 Speaker 2: the White House, right the movie Vice starring Christian Bale, 223 00:15:05,240 --> 00:15:09,480 Speaker 2: created by Adam McKay, and thinking about Dick Cheney as 224 00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:13,920 Speaker 2: more of a someone in power rather, you know, rather 225 00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:17,520 Speaker 2: than vice president, probably acting more as president at times 226 00:15:17,560 --> 00:15:21,400 Speaker 2: at least, And how excited this group was that that 227 00:15:21,520 --> 00:15:25,400 Speaker 2: group of people was in there controlling things. It just 228 00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:29,760 Speaker 2: it makes you wonder what else was happening, because we 229 00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:34,000 Speaker 2: don't see it all written out right in these PNAC publications, 230 00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:39,040 Speaker 2: but it does almost it's almost like it tells a 231 00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:42,800 Speaker 2: story that has a bunch of redacted pieces. Does that 232 00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:45,160 Speaker 2: makes sense? So it feels like a conspiracy theory. 233 00:15:45,480 --> 00:15:48,400 Speaker 3: It does. Yeah, And I think you hit on it, Matt. 234 00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:52,960 Speaker 3: There's a narrative here. And the war is it's two 235 00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:57,120 Speaker 3: wars again, right. Part of the war is this physical 236 00:15:57,120 --> 00:15:59,720 Speaker 3: activity abroad, and another part of the war is for 237 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:03,440 Speaker 3: the heart's minds and opinions of the American public to 238 00:16:03,640 --> 00:16:09,280 Speaker 3: support some drastic changes and escalations in foreign policy. 239 00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:10,760 Speaker 4: And also, you know. 240 00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:17,120 Speaker 3: The thread of argument from the p and AC cohort 241 00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:22,520 Speaker 3: at this time is very much like a once that 242 00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:26,600 Speaker 3: TV ad guy Billy mays like an act now imperative. 243 00:16:26,760 --> 00:16:28,480 Speaker 4: Right now is not the time. 244 00:16:28,640 --> 00:16:33,080 Speaker 3: To dither and ask all these what if since if thens. 245 00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:36,680 Speaker 3: Now is the time to solve the problem. We America 246 00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:40,680 Speaker 3: are in a crisis moment and therefore must act as 247 00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:43,800 Speaker 3: quickly as possible. And anything that holds up that train, 248 00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:48,760 Speaker 3: anything that pumps the breaks on, that is anathema. It 249 00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:53,240 Speaker 3: is unclean, and it is against the larger mission of justice. 250 00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:54,240 Speaker 4: Oh. 251 00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:59,880 Speaker 2: In May two thousand and one, there's another memo tho 252 00:16:59,920 --> 00:17:03,360 Speaker 2: was written called the two War Standard, that is specifically 253 00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:07,639 Speaker 2: talking about Donald Rumsfeld going to the White House to 254 00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:12,480 Speaker 2: present a brand new blueprint directly to the President of 255 00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:16,840 Speaker 2: the United States of how the US military should move forward, 256 00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:21,800 Speaker 2: like Donald Rumsfeld, one of the PNAC guys that they're 257 00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:29,120 Speaker 2: looking at basically telling the not telling, let's say, strongly 258 00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:32,159 Speaker 2: pitching that this is the way things should go. And 259 00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:35,600 Speaker 2: the whole point of that of that new blueprint is 260 00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:38,520 Speaker 2: that the United States has to have a number of 261 00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:43,240 Speaker 2: like a number of military personnel at various places, of 262 00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:46,680 Speaker 2: various ranks, to be able to fight two simultaneous wars 263 00:17:47,080 --> 00:17:51,159 Speaker 2: on two different battlefields, like two fronts basically and be 264 00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:57,960 Speaker 2: victorious handedly in both. And think about what happened that's 265 00:17:58,080 --> 00:18:04,560 Speaker 2: May two thousand and one, and then what a year later, 266 00:18:05,160 --> 00:18:08,480 Speaker 2: a year and a half later. Okay, let's say two 267 00:18:08,520 --> 00:18:12,719 Speaker 2: years later, we are simultaneously fighting two major wars on 268 00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:14,560 Speaker 2: two different fronts. 269 00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:17,720 Speaker 3: And keep in mind, folks, for the p ANDAC at 270 00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:21,679 Speaker 3: this juncture, the vibe is that they're making up for 271 00:18:21,760 --> 00:18:27,040 Speaker 3: lost time. Right, Military expenditure as a percentage has is 272 00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:28,239 Speaker 3: not where they want it to be. 273 00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:28,880 Speaker 4: Right. 274 00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:33,800 Speaker 3: Neither, by the way, is military enrollment or recruitment. This 275 00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:38,680 Speaker 3: all changes on September eleventh. Military recruitment spikes, and indeed 276 00:18:39,119 --> 00:18:43,119 Speaker 3: many people tuning in tonight joined up as a result 277 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:45,120 Speaker 3: of the events of September eleventh. 278 00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:46,280 Speaker 4: This was. 279 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:51,320 Speaker 3: That watershed moment, that Pearl Harbor moment. The p and 280 00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:56,520 Speaker 3: AC both yearned for and appeared to some to predict 281 00:18:56,880 --> 00:19:02,680 Speaker 3: at attack on American soil, catalyzing, unifying, promoting a strong reaction, 282 00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:08,280 Speaker 3: an aversion to serious and difficult questions, and there was 283 00:19:08,359 --> 00:19:12,720 Speaker 3: this huge increase. Like you said, in military expenses, P 284 00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:18,040 Speaker 3: and AC proposals are adopted, mandated, put into action at 285 00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:20,359 Speaker 3: an extraordinarily swift rate. 286 00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:23,920 Speaker 2: Okay, with that, we're going to take a quick break. Here, 287 00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:26,520 Speaker 2: a word from our sponsor. Then we'll be right back, 288 00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:37,000 Speaker 2: and we are back. Let's go back to the GDP 289 00:19:37,160 --> 00:19:40,800 Speaker 2: stuff we talked about in part one. Nineteen ninety nine, 290 00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:45,640 Speaker 2: the United States spent two hundred and sixty billion dollars 291 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:49,639 Speaker 2: on defense. Let's jump to twenty ten, So this is 292 00:19:49,840 --> 00:19:53,639 Speaker 2: after we invade Afghanistan, we have invaded Iraq, we have 293 00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:56,240 Speaker 2: fight a bunch of other little minor proxy wars in 294 00:19:56,280 --> 00:20:00,879 Speaker 2: parts of the Middle East. In twenty ten, the United 295 00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:05,040 Speaker 2: States is spending now four point five percent of GDP 296 00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:08,879 Speaker 2: on defense, and that equals to six hundred and seventy 297 00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:11,240 Speaker 2: seven billion dollars a year. 298 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:14,520 Speaker 3: I guess it's almost imaginary money, it. 299 00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:17,520 Speaker 2: Is, but it you know, it's like a two and 300 00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:21,240 Speaker 2: a half x kind of thing where it's like, it's 301 00:20:21,280 --> 00:20:23,080 Speaker 2: just a crazy amount of money. It goes from two 302 00:20:23,119 --> 00:20:27,679 Speaker 2: point seven percent to four point five percent in like 303 00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:34,240 Speaker 2: ten years, and it's exactly what they wanted. Yeah, the 304 00:20:34,359 --> 00:20:36,080 Speaker 2: they called for three point eight by the way, they 305 00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:40,320 Speaker 2: called for three point eight percent GDP spending on defense 306 00:20:40,359 --> 00:20:41,600 Speaker 2: and they got four point five. 307 00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:42,879 Speaker 4: Right, right. 308 00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:47,040 Speaker 3: The wins were favorable policy wise, and you know, the 309 00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:51,240 Speaker 3: disturbing thing about it is that very quickly the true 310 00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:58,040 Speaker 3: origin of the attack became somewhat academic. The event is 311 00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:02,520 Speaker 3: what you needed. It's sort of like how how in 312 00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:08,080 Speaker 3: Venezuela's current regime, the invasion of Guiana, if it occurs, 313 00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:11,240 Speaker 3: does not have to be successful. The event simply needs 314 00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:14,800 Speaker 3: to exist such that it can solidify the views of 315 00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:17,639 Speaker 3: the public and tamp down on the opposition. 316 00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:21,439 Speaker 2: Yeah, the views of the public, both within the United 317 00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:24,600 Speaker 2: States or the country that's going to be the aggressor, 318 00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:28,640 Speaker 2: but also in the international community. Because you need that thing. 319 00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:31,439 Speaker 2: That Bush ended up getting the coalition of the willing 320 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:34,919 Speaker 2: right of all the other countries that are part of 321 00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:37,280 Speaker 2: the UN, that are part of NATO that join in 322 00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:40,399 Speaker 2: and say, oh, yeah, you guys were wronged. We're going 323 00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:41,520 Speaker 2: to support you too. 324 00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:43,880 Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, agreed. 325 00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:48,480 Speaker 3: And from this event then sprang the justification for war 326 00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:54,280 Speaker 3: abroad and wars abroad, and an almost incalculable flow of 327 00:21:54,359 --> 00:21:57,320 Speaker 3: military funding and a lot of money fell through the cracks. 328 00:21:57,359 --> 00:21:59,399 Speaker 3: By the way, shout out to that palette of cash 329 00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:02,800 Speaker 3: that just disappeared in the Middle East, and coldly, but 330 00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:06,119 Speaker 3: it's a fantastic time to be part of the military 331 00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:10,520 Speaker 3: industrial congressional complex that Eisenhower warned the public about so 332 00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:14,520 Speaker 3: very long ago. Also in the speech he says military 333 00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:18,240 Speaker 3: industrial complex, but in his original draft, as we pointed 334 00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:24,080 Speaker 3: out before, he had the phrase military industrial congressional complex, 335 00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:26,640 Speaker 3: and that last word got cut out. 336 00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:30,200 Speaker 2: Well, and let's not forget things like the Patriot Act 337 00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:36,000 Speaker 2: that were passed, solidifying of power in very different ways 338 00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:39,000 Speaker 2: than the United States was used to. Right about what 339 00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:43,199 Speaker 2: US military forces can do, what intelligence forces can do, 340 00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:45,879 Speaker 2: where they can act, how they can act, what the 341 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:49,080 Speaker 2: US civilians are going to be subjected to. 342 00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:55,240 Speaker 3: Your rights, to your rights to privacy, or your lack 343 00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:58,480 Speaker 3: thereof expansion of a surveillance state that continues today. 344 00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:04,040 Speaker 2: And we're in that moment of a tremendous fear anger. Right, 345 00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:07,439 Speaker 2: like all of these things that the general population is 346 00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:12,080 Speaker 2: feeling because of these horrendous, horrifying attacks, something like the 347 00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:14,920 Speaker 2: Patriot Act comes along and it feels like, oh, someone, 348 00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:17,440 Speaker 2: they're trying to protect us, and we are. You know, 349 00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:20,480 Speaker 2: this is not only about protecting us, this is about 350 00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:24,640 Speaker 2: getting justice, so we must go forward. I support that thing, 351 00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:28,240 Speaker 2: of course I do. If I didn't, i'd be an American. 352 00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:32,800 Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, pure pressure writ large Macrocosmis Shale. Well, it's 353 00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:35,520 Speaker 3: also I think it's also very important for us to 354 00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:39,440 Speaker 3: say that a lot of these policymakers, from their perspective, 355 00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:42,600 Speaker 3: they are acting in good faith. There's not like a 356 00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:48,080 Speaker 3: Monty Burn's fingers steepling going yes, yes, well ruin stuff. 357 00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:51,119 Speaker 2: There are a couple and they're the attorneys who are 358 00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:54,600 Speaker 2: going through looking at the enhanced interrogation techniques. I think 359 00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:58,960 Speaker 2: those guys are steepling, going, well, men can slap their legs. 360 00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:00,959 Speaker 4: As hard as we can. Oh yeah, well was it? 361 00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:04,400 Speaker 3: I stand eight hours a day anyway. But that's that's 362 00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:08,639 Speaker 3: also again that that can be attributed to mission creep 363 00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:13,960 Speaker 3: and the insidious allure of the greater good argument rights 364 00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:17,320 Speaker 3: as we I think, as we prove pretty well in 365 00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:22,800 Speaker 3: our previous series on torture, torture doesn't work. It is 366 00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:29,040 Speaker 3: incredibly clear that torture does not work. Now pulling it, 367 00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:32,960 Speaker 3: we can foist any nomenclature we want on it. Call 368 00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:38,639 Speaker 3: it enhanced interrogation, you know, call it non consensual interview techniques. 369 00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:45,119 Speaker 3: It doesn't matter. The reality is, despite what various fictional 370 00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:49,960 Speaker 3: shows show us, the ticking time bomb situation is relatively rare, 371 00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:55,480 Speaker 3: and the people who are conducting these activities also don't 372 00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:56,520 Speaker 3: see themselves as. 373 00:24:56,359 --> 00:24:57,040 Speaker 4: The bad guys. 374 00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:01,160 Speaker 3: It is a greater good argument. And it's also you know, logically, 375 00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:07,520 Speaker 3: it is incredibly difficult to defend yourself by saying I 376 00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:10,640 Speaker 3: stopped something from happening, you know what I mean. Like, 377 00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:14,119 Speaker 3: if you're the person who is a minute late for 378 00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:17,639 Speaker 3: the train and you have a strong feeling that the 379 00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:21,040 Speaker 3: train will crash, and the train doesn't crash, then you 380 00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:23,679 Speaker 3: just had a weird vibe. You know, it's tough to 381 00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:28,280 Speaker 3: prove that you saved lives with this. So it's just 382 00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:32,560 Speaker 3: to be very fair. Again, these are not necessarily villainous people. 383 00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:35,879 Speaker 3: But there is an argument that perhaps they've been I 384 00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:40,760 Speaker 3: don't want to say brainwashed, but perhaps they are disincentivized 385 00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:43,240 Speaker 3: from asking some of the questions that should have been asked. 386 00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:47,560 Speaker 2: Well, here's where it gets dangerous, I think, because you 387 00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:51,880 Speaker 2: can convince yourself that all of those guys are villains 388 00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:56,000 Speaker 2: if you allow yourself to go all the way and say, well, 389 00:25:56,240 --> 00:26:00,439 Speaker 2: the September eleventh attacks were like purposefully done, or you know, 390 00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:03,399 Speaker 2: it was a false flag, or it was allowed to happen, 391 00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:07,720 Speaker 2: and all those other things. That stuff is, at least 392 00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:10,240 Speaker 2: to my knowledge and all of the research we have done, 393 00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:12,560 Speaker 2: I have not seen any kind of smoking guns that 394 00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:14,520 Speaker 2: say any of that stuff is true. 395 00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:15,480 Speaker 1: I have. 396 00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:20,080 Speaker 2: What I have seen is that that instance, that moment, 397 00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:26,480 Speaker 2: those attacks became used a very useful thing for the 398 00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:29,760 Speaker 2: folks at the PNAC and the what you would just 399 00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:32,280 Speaker 2: what you would describe as warhawks, the people who want 400 00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:35,960 Speaker 2: the war machine to grow larger, that want the United 401 00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:42,400 Speaker 2: States to be the ideological hedgemon. It was a useful thing. Unfortunately. 402 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:45,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm with you on the smoking gun stuff, Matt. 403 00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:51,000 Speaker 3: The I'm also in agreement one hundred percent with the opportunism. 404 00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:55,160 Speaker 3: Opportunism there can be proven. I mean, look, the pieces 405 00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:58,520 Speaker 3: for the p ANDAC goals were, as we establish in 406 00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:02,920 Speaker 3: Part one, they're all over the place, numerous statements, memos, documents, 407 00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:08,760 Speaker 3: you name it. For example, before the PNAC blueprint emerged, 408 00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:12,159 Speaker 3: and again it's all pre nine to eleven. There was 409 00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:18,560 Speaker 3: an earlier document co authored by Wolfowitz that said you 410 00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:20,600 Speaker 3: could kind of say he said the quiet part out loud, 411 00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:23,680 Speaker 3: but they weren't being quiet. They were being very forthright. Honestly, 412 00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:30,959 Speaker 3: this paper that wolf Woods Rights says in part quote, 413 00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:35,640 Speaker 3: the US must discourage advanced industrial nations from challenging our 414 00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:40,720 Speaker 3: leadership or its key even aspiring to a larger regional 415 00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:45,440 Speaker 3: or global rule. The idea is that if you allow right, 416 00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:51,440 Speaker 3: today's regional power may become tomorrow's global super opponent. 417 00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:53,160 Speaker 2: Reminds me of Libya. 418 00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:59,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, and I mean Libya and Gaddafi got put down, 419 00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:05,639 Speaker 3: as as as the facts would later prove. Gaddafi was 420 00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:12,560 Speaker 3: taken down due to French concerns about currency control, but 421 00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:15,240 Speaker 3: that didn't come out in a lot of the speeches 422 00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:15,760 Speaker 3: at the time. 423 00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:18,480 Speaker 2: Dude, we didn't even mention. I'm looking at this ABC 424 00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:21,880 Speaker 2: News article just mentioning this stuff. And there there are 425 00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:24,199 Speaker 2: other people involved here that we didn't even mention in 426 00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:27,399 Speaker 2: part one. There are a time Richard Armitage, who was 427 00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:30,320 Speaker 2: the Secretary of State for a while, John Bolton, who 428 00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:33,800 Speaker 2: has played a large role not not wait, hold on, 429 00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:38,480 Speaker 2: not Michael Bolton. Not Michael Bolton, John Moulton, the mustache. Yes, 430 00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:41,880 Speaker 2: Oh who was the other person? 431 00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:42,400 Speaker 3: Uh? 432 00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:46,560 Speaker 2: Somebody? Richard Pearl another person who's been mentioned a whole bunch. 433 00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:50,880 Speaker 2: It's just I'm getting off track, man. In my mind 434 00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:53,120 Speaker 2: is reeling on a lot of these things, because it 435 00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:56,960 Speaker 2: does feel like there are connections to a lot of 436 00:28:56,960 --> 00:28:59,800 Speaker 2: the major topics we're hitting on, to all the other 437 00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:02,680 Speaker 2: topics I want to talk about in here. It feels 438 00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:05,920 Speaker 2: like a blueprint for somebody who wants to build a 439 00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:08,640 Speaker 2: conspiracy board. And I think that's maybe why I use 440 00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:11,400 Speaker 2: that word dangerous, because it does feel like you could 441 00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:14,320 Speaker 2: go down this rabbit hole and not be able to 442 00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:18,360 Speaker 2: find your way out. I really do think you could 443 00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:19,120 Speaker 2: get trapped here. 444 00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:21,560 Speaker 4: Oh yeah yeah. 445 00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:27,200 Speaker 3: And these papers again, what they show us, these earlier 446 00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:30,440 Speaker 3: statements from principles in the p and AC, what they 447 00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:34,920 Speaker 3: show us is not necessarily conspiracy to cause a thing 448 00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:37,920 Speaker 3: to happen, but they show us a group of people 449 00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:42,160 Speaker 3: who are primed to react in the wake of a 450 00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:46,520 Speaker 3: horrible event and to move in step. The paper also 451 00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:49,680 Speaker 3: goes on, this is the staircase thing we're talking about earlier. 452 00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:53,160 Speaker 3: The paper also goes on to say, look, even if 453 00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:56,640 Speaker 3: Saddam is popped and is off the scene, we're going 454 00:29:56,720 --> 00:30:00,080 Speaker 3: to keep those bases in Saudi Arabia and quite middle 455 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:05,320 Speaker 3: because Iran may be the next regional threat. And then 456 00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:08,840 Speaker 3: they kind of treat China like the final boss some 457 00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:12,200 Speaker 3: weird video game, because that's what they end on often. 458 00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:17,400 Speaker 3: And on the horizon, China the next USSR. Who knows, 459 00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:20,520 Speaker 3: but a regional power one day is a global power 460 00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:21,040 Speaker 3: the next. 461 00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:24,760 Speaker 2: And they're saying to shift all of like a bunch 462 00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:28,120 Speaker 2: of our resources basically to the South China, see to 463 00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:32,600 Speaker 2: areas in China or near China. 464 00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:36,719 Speaker 3: The Pacific theater. Yeah, absolutely, And we have to give 465 00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:40,840 Speaker 3: a shout out as well to the numerous journalists, the 466 00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:47,040 Speaker 3: so often ignored academics who rightly boldly asked some uncomfortable 467 00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:52,360 Speaker 3: questions and we're in some cases we're very heavily punished 468 00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:55,800 Speaker 3: for it, Like why did it seem that the President 469 00:30:55,920 --> 00:31:01,000 Speaker 3: of the United States was left in the cold. Some 470 00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:03,920 Speaker 3: of these events unfolded right whose sidelines? 471 00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:05,120 Speaker 4: The potus? 472 00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:09,320 Speaker 3: Another thing, why did the CIA and the FBI seem 473 00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:14,640 Speaker 3: so cartoonishly siloed. We're talking about the big dogs of intelligence. 474 00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:19,160 Speaker 3: These have some of the most brilliant people in the 475 00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:23,520 Speaker 3: world work for these organizations. How come there were so 476 00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:28,400 Speaker 3: many red flags that seem ignored in the lead up 477 00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:34,680 Speaker 3: to the events of September eleventh. Is it simply you know, again, 478 00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:39,360 Speaker 3: it's perspective. Do we as people with the benefit of retrospect, 479 00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:44,320 Speaker 3: do we see things differently? I think I'm almost certain 480 00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:48,440 Speaker 3: the answer is yes, right, because you know, if you 481 00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:51,120 Speaker 3: look into stuff, and this is public knowledge, if you 482 00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:57,400 Speaker 3: look into various ugly leads and reports of strange things 483 00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:00,520 Speaker 3: in the US, and what you learn very quickly there's 484 00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:02,560 Speaker 3: a lot of crazy stuff out there, and there are 485 00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:05,240 Speaker 3: a lot of people reporting crazy stuff for any number 486 00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:07,920 Speaker 3: of reasons. You have to cut through good noise, and 487 00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:11,160 Speaker 3: it's tough to cut through that noise. Like okay, another one. 488 00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:16,160 Speaker 3: All the way back to nineteen ninety six, there was 489 00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:21,800 Speaker 3: squarely established intel that said there are serious plans, there 490 00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:25,400 Speaker 3: are people talking about how to hit various targets in 491 00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:28,760 Speaker 3: washing in DC using airplanes as weapons. 492 00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:30,720 Speaker 4: Yeah, ninety six. 493 00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:34,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, ninety six. And that's well after well, I don't 494 00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:37,480 Speaker 2: know if that's before or after the Olympics bombing, right, 495 00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:41,480 Speaker 2: that's after the Oklahoma City bombing with Timothy McVay nineteen 496 00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:46,040 Speaker 2: ninety five. It does make me wonder, Ben, how much 497 00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:48,800 Speaker 2: of that kind of stuff is the same thing that 498 00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:51,960 Speaker 2: the PNAC is doing trying to figure out who the 499 00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:54,960 Speaker 2: next big bad guy is going to be since the 500 00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:59,400 Speaker 2: Soviets are no longer there, right, and people are square 501 00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:02,320 Speaker 2: You can see it in American media as well. We're 502 00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:08,840 Speaker 2: squarely looking at Middle East quote terrorists as like the 503 00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:12,200 Speaker 2: next big bad guy, which is kind of weird, but 504 00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:15,440 Speaker 2: it is what we're looking at. And there's actual intelligence 505 00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:19,920 Speaker 2: showing that there are dangers from smaller groups, right, that's 506 00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:23,040 Speaker 2: really what we're looking at, like potential plans from smaller 507 00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:26,080 Speaker 2: groups that would carry out some kind of attack. 508 00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:29,280 Speaker 3: And these things. To be clear, these threats have to 509 00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:30,480 Speaker 3: be taken seriously. 510 00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:31,240 Speaker 2: Right. 511 00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:37,360 Speaker 3: We're not attempting to paint any of the people we've 512 00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:42,600 Speaker 3: mentioned as jumping at shadows, right, there are real consequences. 513 00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:45,560 Speaker 3: They are aware of these consequences. A lot of thought 514 00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:49,440 Speaker 3: goes into this. But then how about that National Intelligence 515 00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:53,640 Speaker 3: Council report from nineteen ninety nine that reiterated the same 516 00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:58,880 Speaker 3: stuff and in this case specifically named al Qaeda. How 517 00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:01,960 Speaker 3: this get missed? 518 00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:02,320 Speaker 4: You know? 519 00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:08,040 Speaker 3: And then there's the other guy, Zacharias MUSSAUI. Some of 520 00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:10,399 Speaker 3: us may remember in August of two thousand and one, 521 00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:15,359 Speaker 3: he gets arrested because his flight instructor says, this guy 522 00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:19,200 Speaker 3: has a quote suspicious interest in learning how to steer 523 00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:25,399 Speaker 3: large airlines. Zacharias Moussawi, by the way, I often thought 524 00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:30,880 Speaker 3: of as the twentieth of the hijackers. So why, like, 525 00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:35,560 Speaker 3: how could how could something as plugged in as the 526 00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:43,040 Speaker 3: US intelligence, economy, industry, right collective community? How could these 527 00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:44,080 Speaker 3: things be missed? 528 00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:46,000 Speaker 4: Are we? I don't know? 529 00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:48,920 Speaker 3: That's what I wrestled with Matt because it's so easy 530 00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:52,040 Speaker 3: to look back and say the signs were all there. 531 00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:55,839 Speaker 3: But if you're in the moment and you're getting thousands 532 00:34:55,840 --> 00:35:00,319 Speaker 3: and thousands of reports per day, per hour, you know, 533 00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:06,640 Speaker 3: then how can you coalate and synthesize all of that? 534 00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:11,040 Speaker 3: Why did the FBI turn down the warrant to search 535 00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:12,160 Speaker 3: Masaui's computer. 536 00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:15,480 Speaker 2: I have no idea, And let's pause right there. Here 537 00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:17,840 Speaker 2: a word from our sponsor, and we'll be right back. 538 00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:28,080 Speaker 2: And we've returned. Well, let's talk about what you found 539 00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:31,640 Speaker 2: in Newsweek and the Guardian and the BBC all reporting 540 00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:37,160 Speaker 2: on stuff that was happening right around the September eleven attacks. 541 00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:40,600 Speaker 2: What was this about fifteen of the hijackers got their 542 00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:45,799 Speaker 2: visas in Saudi Arabia and we then invaded Afghanistan and 543 00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:47,160 Speaker 2: then Iraq. 544 00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:48,919 Speaker 4: Uh huh. Yeah. 545 00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:52,160 Speaker 3: That's a Guardian article from two thousand and three by 546 00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:58,080 Speaker 3: Michael Meecher, definitely a journalist with strong opinions. The headline 547 00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:01,719 Speaker 3: of the article is this war on terrorism is bogus, 548 00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:04,520 Speaker 3: which struck a lot of people the wrong way, I think. 549 00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:09,200 Speaker 3: But they point out some very solid things, right, like 550 00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:14,200 Speaker 3: the accusation that since the late eighties, the CIA has 551 00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:18,920 Speaker 3: been kind of off the books, illegally issuing visas to 552 00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:22,960 Speaker 3: applicants from the Middle East, bringing them to the US 553 00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:25,880 Speaker 3: for training, you know, like School of the America's type stuff, 554 00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:27,440 Speaker 3: so that. 555 00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:29,680 Speaker 2: They like, is in guerrilla warfare kind of stuff. 556 00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:33,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, so that they could asymmetrical kind of tactics, so 557 00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:41,400 Speaker 3: that they could participate in the conflicts in Afghanistan, and 558 00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:46,480 Speaker 3: then after the Afghan War, this operation or this process 559 00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:52,160 Speaker 3: seemed to continue apace. There's the Newsweek thing. I'm glad 560 00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:56,160 Speaker 3: you're pointing that out. September fifteenth, two thousand and one, 561 00:36:56,760 --> 00:37:01,280 Speaker 3: Newsweek reported that five of those hijackers in nine to eleven, 562 00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:06,160 Speaker 3: we're trained at a secure US military installation in the nineties. 563 00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:11,680 Speaker 2: Well, I mean, what do you do with that information? 564 00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:13,960 Speaker 3: I know, right, what do you do? 565 00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:14,319 Speaker 4: You go? 566 00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:19,320 Speaker 2: Okay, So that's fishy as well. Why would that occur? 567 00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:25,640 Speaker 2: Maybe they were trying to build assets for one thing, 568 00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:27,000 Speaker 2: but then they did something else. 569 00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:31,560 Speaker 3: Mission creep man, it's real. I mean, maybe there's we 570 00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:33,240 Speaker 3: talked about this too in the past. 571 00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:34,879 Speaker 4: Like the idea then is. 572 00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:40,719 Speaker 3: Pretty self apparent. Right, You train somebody for something. When 573 00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:44,680 Speaker 3: that thing is done accomplished or when it fails, that 574 00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:47,480 Speaker 3: training does not go away, you know what I mean. 575 00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:52,600 Speaker 3: People don't get some kind of retrograde amnesia for this. 576 00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:56,480 Speaker 3: There are other things too, you know, and these questions 577 00:37:57,640 --> 00:38:01,040 Speaker 3: rightly haunt a lot of people. We have to be 578 00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:04,200 Speaker 3: very careful again not to play too much red stream 579 00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:07,799 Speaker 3: conspiracy board stuff with this, But why did it take 580 00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:11,239 Speaker 3: so long to scramble fighter planes right in one of 581 00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:15,040 Speaker 3: the most heavily populated parts of the country. 582 00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:19,719 Speaker 2: Why didn't they release any footage from any of the 583 00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:23,560 Speaker 2: security cameras at the Pentagon. That still bugs the heck 584 00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:28,160 Speaker 2: out of me. Somebody somewhere right now, release some high 585 00:38:28,239 --> 00:38:33,239 Speaker 2: quality security camera footage from the Pentagon attack. Somebody do it, 586 00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:37,760 Speaker 2: because the like seventeen frames or whatever they got released 587 00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:39,320 Speaker 2: that is not good enough. 588 00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:44,360 Speaker 3: And it's certainly not the totality of the footage for sure. 589 00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:48,480 Speaker 3: And also, again I keep going back to it, the 590 00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:52,760 Speaker 3: US does have one of the absolute best intelligence apparatuses 591 00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:57,080 Speaker 3: on the planet. They are deeply linked, sometimes not consensually, 592 00:38:57,560 --> 00:39:01,319 Speaker 3: with pretty much every other intel opiration out there, you 593 00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:02,560 Speaker 3: know what I mean, Like. 594 00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:06,880 Speaker 2: Look cell phone, so like come on, I. 595 00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:10,360 Speaker 3: Know, I know, I keep trying to get see the 596 00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:14,799 Speaker 3: intern to play words with friends, But like, how did 597 00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:17,239 Speaker 3: five eyes miss all of these things, these things that 598 00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:21,759 Speaker 3: appear to be apparent red flax? These are valid questions. Uh, 599 00:39:22,239 --> 00:39:24,640 Speaker 3: we gotta site also in that Guardian article, I know 600 00:39:24,719 --> 00:39:27,480 Speaker 3: you saw this, Matt. We got to cite a banger 601 00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:32,040 Speaker 3: of a quote former US Federal crimes prosecutor John Loftis 602 00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:37,120 Speaker 3: wrote this. He said, the information provided by European intelligence 603 00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:40,920 Speaker 3: services prior to nine to eleven was so extensive that 604 00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:44,279 Speaker 3: it is no longer possible for either the CIA or 605 00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:49,560 Speaker 3: FBI to assert a defense of incompetence. Those are very 606 00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:52,040 Speaker 3: heavy words. Those are words you have to be careful with, 607 00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:52,520 Speaker 3: you know. 608 00:39:52,840 --> 00:39:53,280 Speaker 1: Wow. 609 00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:57,640 Speaker 3: And again that's just one guy saying that, right, but 610 00:39:57,680 --> 00:40:01,680 Speaker 3: it is. It is someone who is earlier with law 611 00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:08,440 Speaker 3: enforcement operations, a former federal crimes prosecutor, and not not 612 00:40:08,560 --> 00:40:11,440 Speaker 3: a guy who is a quack by any means, you know, 613 00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:14,520 Speaker 3: not just some dude on four Chan hosting anonymously. 614 00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:18,720 Speaker 2: It's the storm is coming right sorry? 615 00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:23,880 Speaker 3: Oh gosh, oh no, quick quick questions, right you? 616 00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:24,920 Speaker 4: Oh man? 617 00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:28,279 Speaker 3: Uh so, I guess you know. One of the things 618 00:40:28,280 --> 00:40:30,239 Speaker 3: we have to get to. There's a lot we might 619 00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:32,000 Speaker 3: not get to tonight. But one of the things we 620 00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:35,560 Speaker 3: have to get to is what we mentioned in Part one, 621 00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:39,880 Speaker 3: the p in AC and matt As As we had noted, 622 00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:44,279 Speaker 3: this was a officially short lived enterprise active ninety seven 623 00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:49,239 Speaker 3: to two thousand and six. Some people will say some 624 00:40:49,239 --> 00:40:53,440 Speaker 3: people will say that the public may overestimate the amount 625 00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:57,960 Speaker 3: of influence the PNAC actually had one thing's for sure. 626 00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:01,239 Speaker 3: As you said, the number doesn't work. If you go 627 00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:04,880 Speaker 3: to the building where the P ANDAC was, you will 628 00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:08,480 Speaker 3: not see it. But the building's far from abandoned. 629 00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:11,319 Speaker 2: No, there's other people there. But let's talk about that. 630 00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:13,920 Speaker 2: When they were up and running, what did you say, 631 00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:16,520 Speaker 2: ninety seven to two thousand and six, When they were 632 00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:20,080 Speaker 2: up and running, you could get from their headquarters to 633 00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:24,760 Speaker 2: the White House Park and be inside like five six minutes. 634 00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:28,279 Speaker 2: You could walk directly from there in fifteen minutes. It 635 00:41:28,360 --> 00:41:31,400 Speaker 2: was immediately close to the White House the way a 636 00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:34,759 Speaker 2: lot of lobby like major lobbyist groups and think tanks are. 637 00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:40,640 Speaker 2: But just thinking about what that means for access to 638 00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:44,080 Speaker 2: both people in the White House and you know people in. 639 00:41:44,080 --> 00:41:46,960 Speaker 3: Congress shout out to K Street by the way. You 640 00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:51,840 Speaker 3: remember that TV series It got canceled by congressional request. 641 00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:57,279 Speaker 3: It's a satire about the lobbying industry. 642 00:41:57,600 --> 00:41:58,400 Speaker 4: It's really good. 643 00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:01,080 Speaker 2: It's a little too close to you know. I was 644 00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:04,120 Speaker 2: trying to that. Uh was that Louisiana. 645 00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:07,080 Speaker 4: Guy that I was getting some vibes. 646 00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:10,279 Speaker 2: No, he's a guy who was working with Clinton a 647 00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:17,319 Speaker 2: whole bunch. No it's not. He's a major political guy. 648 00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:22,360 Speaker 3: Can't think of the former marine guy shaved head. Yes, yeah, oh, 649 00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:26,320 Speaker 3: oh gosh, Jimmy jim something. 650 00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:29,719 Speaker 2: Uh. Carville, James Carville, James. 651 00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:32,359 Speaker 3: Carville put some respect on his name. 652 00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:36,920 Speaker 4: Yeah, he's he's a he's uh, he is uh. 653 00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:40,600 Speaker 3: He actually has a really charming on air presence. 654 00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:44,839 Speaker 2: I think so too. But the guy, he knows how 655 00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:47,040 Speaker 2: to play the dirty games man, and he. 656 00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:51,479 Speaker 4: Did he should did. I mean, it is a dirty game, 657 00:42:51,680 --> 00:42:52,319 Speaker 4: you know what I mean? 658 00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:55,880 Speaker 3: You can't be an Olympic swimmer and expect not to 659 00:42:55,880 --> 00:43:01,680 Speaker 3: get wet to butcher. A weird analogy, but I we'll 660 00:43:01,760 --> 00:43:07,800 Speaker 3: keep it. But so, okay, Matt, you found something really 661 00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:11,040 Speaker 3: interesting that I think. I think more people should know 662 00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:18,040 Speaker 3: what is in this building and what's the building itself? 663 00:43:18,320 --> 00:43:21,080 Speaker 2: Oh shoot, I can't remember this part. Ben I I 664 00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:23,279 Speaker 2: talked with you about this, and I haven't thought about 665 00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:23,879 Speaker 2: it since then. 666 00:43:24,719 --> 00:43:28,239 Speaker 3: Seventeenth Street, right, ye, sure it was uh And you 667 00:43:28,280 --> 00:43:30,920 Speaker 3: had you had this, You had this great list you 668 00:43:31,040 --> 00:43:34,640 Speaker 3: found of multiple other organizations. 669 00:43:35,560 --> 00:43:38,600 Speaker 2: Oh nuts, Okay, I think I've got it here. Oh, 670 00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:41,840 Speaker 2: I remember the Order of Malta is there, which is 671 00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:44,160 Speaker 2: something we've talked about in the past. 672 00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:48,640 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, super exclusive passports. Those guys, I want 673 00:43:48,719 --> 00:43:49,359 Speaker 4: one so bad. 674 00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:54,000 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, exactly. Speaking of speaking of lobbying and stuff, 675 00:43:54,040 --> 00:43:58,280 Speaker 2: the there's what is it called the United United steel Workers. 676 00:43:58,880 --> 00:44:02,840 Speaker 2: They they are it's their Legislative and Policy department, So 677 00:44:03,160 --> 00:44:07,040 Speaker 2: you know, that's a huge guild basically there that they're 678 00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:09,120 Speaker 2: going to go on lobby and they're just five minutes 679 00:44:09,160 --> 00:44:13,280 Speaker 2: from the White House. What else, Oh, the National Council 680 00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:20,400 Speaker 2: on US Arab Relations the ncusa ar dot org is 681 00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:23,799 Speaker 2: that's their website. I thought that's an interesting thing to 682 00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:27,160 Speaker 2: have there in the same building, right that once housed 683 00:44:27,239 --> 00:44:30,000 Speaker 2: this place. That was like, we are going to attack 684 00:44:30,040 --> 00:44:32,759 Speaker 2: a rock in any other country that tries to, you know, 685 00:44:33,160 --> 00:44:38,200 Speaker 2: buck at the United States. And there's something else, oh 686 00:44:38,480 --> 00:44:42,120 Speaker 2: s K and a structural Engineers, which probably has nothing 687 00:44:42,160 --> 00:44:44,360 Speaker 2: to do with any of this, but it made me 688 00:44:44,360 --> 00:44:49,000 Speaker 2: think about nine to eleven. What is it engineers? Something 689 00:44:49,080 --> 00:44:50,360 Speaker 2: in Engineers for truth? 690 00:44:50,880 --> 00:44:52,600 Speaker 4: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. 691 00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:58,440 Speaker 3: Well also, I mean that one I didn't recognize. I'm 692 00:44:58,480 --> 00:45:01,520 Speaker 3: going to be fully trained parent here. As soon as 693 00:45:01,560 --> 00:45:05,080 Speaker 3: I saw the Order of Malta, like some kind of 694 00:45:05,160 --> 00:45:08,759 Speaker 3: ineo morricone, action music started playing in my head and 695 00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:12,640 Speaker 3: I was like to the internet. You know, you'll see 696 00:45:12,680 --> 00:45:16,080 Speaker 3: what these connections are. And perhaps that's one of the 697 00:45:16,680 --> 00:45:19,520 Speaker 3: you know, the dangers or example of the danger that 698 00:45:19,560 --> 00:45:22,839 Speaker 3: you described here, which is the way leading on to way. 699 00:45:22,960 --> 00:45:25,040 Speaker 3: If this is true, then what does it mean? How 700 00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:29,279 Speaker 3: does it connect to these other things? I think Washing 701 00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:33,880 Speaker 3: DC is just so cool man that doesn't really have 702 00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:37,640 Speaker 3: a place to this conversation. But it's also a tremendously 703 00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:41,200 Speaker 3: expensive place to live. Like each of those buildings, or 704 00:45:41,280 --> 00:45:43,960 Speaker 3: each of those organizations in those buildings, can you imagine 705 00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:46,759 Speaker 3: what they're paying on their lease, on their rent. Where 706 00:45:46,760 --> 00:45:49,279 Speaker 3: does the money come from? Where does the money go? 707 00:45:49,520 --> 00:45:52,239 Speaker 3: Why is this suddenly a cotton eye Joe reference. I 708 00:45:52,239 --> 00:45:53,239 Speaker 3: don't understand it. 709 00:45:53,760 --> 00:45:56,960 Speaker 2: Dude, I don't know. I'm going back. I'm going back 710 00:45:56,960 --> 00:45:59,280 Speaker 2: to Robert Kagan, one of the founders of the PNEC 711 00:45:59,440 --> 00:46:02,480 Speaker 2: we talked about in the first episode. Is something he 712 00:46:02,520 --> 00:46:06,640 Speaker 2: wrote in the Washington Post. Again, this is back in 713 00:46:06,719 --> 00:46:11,680 Speaker 2: February two thousand. The title is the biggest issue of all. 714 00:46:12,360 --> 00:46:17,080 Speaker 2: This is during the election two thousand election, right, He says, 715 00:46:18,080 --> 00:46:21,800 Speaker 2: this is just so interesting to me. Voters are defying 716 00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:26,759 Speaker 2: truisms about the political salience of foreign policy. Just as 717 00:46:26,840 --> 00:46:32,000 Speaker 2: they are ignoring truisms about taxes even with no Soviet 718 00:46:32,160 --> 00:46:35,239 Speaker 2: Union to worry about. They want to know how a 719 00:46:35,360 --> 00:46:39,000 Speaker 2: candidate would fare as commander in chief, which is a 720 00:46:39,000 --> 00:46:42,000 Speaker 2: really interesting idea to me, even if there is no 721 00:46:42,280 --> 00:46:47,799 Speaker 2: big bad guy, ideological bad guy out there. Voters when 722 00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:51,759 Speaker 2: electing a president want to know how that person is 723 00:46:51,800 --> 00:46:53,839 Speaker 2: going to fare when they have to put on, you know, 724 00:46:53,880 --> 00:46:57,239 Speaker 2: take the gloves off, and go to war. Basically, how 725 00:46:57,400 --> 00:47:01,880 Speaker 2: is this person going to protect me? Which feels like 726 00:47:01,920 --> 00:47:04,840 Speaker 2: we're in that kind of same spot right now, when 727 00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:09,759 Speaker 2: the world feels to be preparing for some big calamity 728 00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:13,560 Speaker 2: right that's going to be imposed with weapons that we've 729 00:47:13,560 --> 00:47:18,560 Speaker 2: designed and built by weapons manufacturers that percentages of GDP 730 00:47:18,880 --> 00:47:20,320 Speaker 2: have helped support. 731 00:47:21,719 --> 00:47:21,960 Speaker 4: I do. 732 00:47:22,080 --> 00:47:23,879 Speaker 2: It does make me weird it out that we're heading 733 00:47:23,920 --> 00:47:26,040 Speaker 2: into this time again. We're in this country. We have 734 00:47:26,120 --> 00:47:29,920 Speaker 2: to choose who's up again, you know, right. 735 00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:35,840 Speaker 3: Also, also you should point out that there is validity 736 00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:40,359 Speaker 3: to American forced projection, which not everybody likes to hear, 737 00:47:40,800 --> 00:47:47,280 Speaker 3: but the US protects global shipping routes. The global shipping 738 00:47:47,320 --> 00:47:52,000 Speaker 3: economy works because the US Navy and Air Force enforce it. 739 00:47:52,560 --> 00:47:55,200 Speaker 4: And I don't know. 740 00:47:55,440 --> 00:48:00,279 Speaker 3: I think at at this point, you know, what we 741 00:48:00,400 --> 00:48:04,800 Speaker 3: clearly see is people who felt they were on the 742 00:48:04,880 --> 00:48:07,600 Speaker 3: right side of history, felt that they were making the 743 00:48:07,640 --> 00:48:11,560 Speaker 3: hard decisions. And indeed, by the time two thousand and 744 00:48:11,600 --> 00:48:15,640 Speaker 3: one rolls around, the Kagans of the world feel that 745 00:48:16,360 --> 00:48:20,080 Speaker 3: they have been shouting the same message, the same warning 746 00:48:20,160 --> 00:48:24,600 Speaker 3: sign or the same you know warning for years and years, 747 00:48:25,160 --> 00:48:29,480 Speaker 3: and they maybe don't necessarily want to be right, but 748 00:48:29,640 --> 00:48:35,120 Speaker 3: they feel that they are realistically dealing with threats in 749 00:48:35,280 --> 00:48:38,920 Speaker 3: kind of a I hate to say it, man, but 750 00:48:39,400 --> 00:48:43,040 Speaker 3: again a greater good argument, the idea being that you 751 00:48:43,360 --> 00:48:47,840 Speaker 3: have to you have to factor in some ugly things, 752 00:48:47,880 --> 00:48:52,600 Speaker 3: some attrition, in order to successfully complete the larger aim. 753 00:48:52,880 --> 00:48:56,800 Speaker 3: And their argument again is their argument is a powerful 754 00:48:56,840 --> 00:49:00,360 Speaker 3: America makes for a safer America, and a safer America 755 00:49:00,560 --> 00:49:04,280 Speaker 3: makes for a safer world. Now is that true history 756 00:49:04,360 --> 00:49:09,000 Speaker 3: has yet to History has yet to bear out completely 757 00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:12,440 Speaker 3: on this, And I hate that I agree with you 758 00:49:12,560 --> 00:49:17,279 Speaker 3: on the global vibe. You know, certain situations are untenable, 759 00:49:17,920 --> 00:49:21,960 Speaker 3: non sustainable, and in a very real way, billions of 760 00:49:22,000 --> 00:49:24,480 Speaker 3: people seem to be kind of expecting a shoe to 761 00:49:24,600 --> 00:49:25,760 Speaker 3: drop at some point. 762 00:49:26,520 --> 00:49:30,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, but who who. I guess the thing I wonder 763 00:49:30,520 --> 00:49:36,600 Speaker 2: about is who is representing this group now? So all 764 00:49:36,760 --> 00:49:39,719 Speaker 2: the individuals we mentioned who were a big part of 765 00:49:39,800 --> 00:49:44,279 Speaker 2: the project for New American Century, they aren't as much 766 00:49:44,280 --> 00:49:48,960 Speaker 2: in the spotlight these days. I mean could There's an 767 00:49:49,040 --> 00:49:52,280 Speaker 2: Al Jazeer article you can read right now. It's titled 768 00:49:52,280 --> 00:49:55,000 Speaker 2: Decades after nine to eleven, What became of the US's 769 00:49:55,200 --> 00:49:58,759 Speaker 2: neo Conservatives. It was written by Chris Moody in September 770 00:49:58,840 --> 00:50:00,960 Speaker 2: of twenty twenty. One can find that right now, and 771 00:50:01,000 --> 00:50:03,520 Speaker 2: it goes over a few of the different leaders and 772 00:50:03,520 --> 00:50:05,400 Speaker 2: where they are and what's going on in their lives. 773 00:50:06,520 --> 00:50:09,799 Speaker 2: But really, like, who represents that these days? I do 774 00:50:09,920 --> 00:50:14,200 Speaker 2: not know? And what does that group of people want 775 00:50:14,239 --> 00:50:14,480 Speaker 2: to do? 776 00:50:15,120 --> 00:50:15,279 Speaker 3: Well? 777 00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:18,919 Speaker 2: How do they see a way out of situations where 778 00:50:19,000 --> 00:50:23,080 Speaker 2: it feels like a bunch more aggression? Maybe isn't the 779 00:50:23,160 --> 00:50:26,120 Speaker 2: right way to go right right? 780 00:50:27,400 --> 00:50:30,880 Speaker 3: Hammers are good solutions when the problem is nails, But 781 00:50:30,960 --> 00:50:34,600 Speaker 3: what happens when the problem changes? You might need new tools. 782 00:50:34,960 --> 00:50:37,680 Speaker 3: I'll tell you here's what it sounds like, Matt. It 783 00:50:37,719 --> 00:50:41,000 Speaker 3: sounds like what we can say for sure is that 784 00:50:41,040 --> 00:50:44,080 Speaker 3: a powerful group of people banded together to push by 785 00:50:44,160 --> 00:50:47,719 Speaker 3: hook or by Crook for us intercession and escalation in 786 00:50:47,800 --> 00:50:51,880 Speaker 3: a rock as part of a step in a larger plant. 787 00:50:52,080 --> 00:50:56,760 Speaker 3: We can't say that we have to stay away from 788 00:50:56,880 --> 00:51:01,879 Speaker 3: assigning like comic book level supervillainy to real people who 789 00:51:01,920 --> 00:51:05,960 Speaker 3: did it. Seems leverage an opportunity. I have one of 790 00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:08,719 Speaker 3: my one of my favorite pieces of research for this 791 00:51:08,840 --> 00:51:12,839 Speaker 3: comes comes directly from you, my friend, and I have 792 00:51:12,880 --> 00:51:13,320 Speaker 3: a question. 793 00:51:14,000 --> 00:51:17,880 Speaker 2: Okay, uh, you should You should go on conversations with 794 00:51:18,000 --> 00:51:21,000 Speaker 2: Bill Crystal and ask it. Oh. 795 00:51:21,120 --> 00:51:23,080 Speaker 3: I think this is one that that you, you and 796 00:51:23,160 --> 00:51:24,759 Speaker 3: I could can slice up here. 797 00:51:25,320 --> 00:51:27,880 Speaker 4: What are we getting at the Oxford Cafe when we go? 798 00:51:28,360 --> 00:51:34,560 Speaker 2: Oh dude, it's wrou Oh my gosh, yes, oh man. 799 00:51:34,680 --> 00:51:39,640 Speaker 2: If you're listening to this, I'm going there for sure, 800 00:51:39,760 --> 00:51:42,600 Speaker 2: and I'm gonna be I'm gonna just gonna be observing, 801 00:51:43,040 --> 00:51:45,080 Speaker 2: and Ben is just gonna be watching from the other 802 00:51:45,200 --> 00:51:47,160 Speaker 2: side of the cafe. It's gonna be awesome. 803 00:51:47,520 --> 00:51:49,240 Speaker 4: Let's only speak a code words. 804 00:51:49,360 --> 00:51:52,560 Speaker 2: We're gonna put Noel. He's gonna be a barista for 805 00:51:52,600 --> 00:51:55,240 Speaker 2: the day and he's just gonna watch what everybody orders. 806 00:51:57,400 --> 00:52:01,879 Speaker 3: I mean, a pastrue me sandwich for six forty nine. 807 00:52:01,920 --> 00:52:02,839 Speaker 4: That's not too bad. 808 00:52:03,600 --> 00:52:05,040 Speaker 2: You know, wait, are you serious? 809 00:52:05,600 --> 00:52:06,960 Speaker 4: Yeah? 810 00:52:07,680 --> 00:52:12,640 Speaker 3: Great, I know, right, So shout out to Oxford Cafe 811 00:52:12,640 --> 00:52:16,799 Speaker 3: and thank you for finding that, Matt. One of the 812 00:52:16,840 --> 00:52:19,399 Speaker 3: things you mentioned was like, can you imagine you said, 813 00:52:19,440 --> 00:52:23,120 Speaker 3: how many people from these various organizations just like drop 814 00:52:23,200 --> 00:52:28,319 Speaker 3: by there for their breakfast burrito? Yeah, they're six fifty pistramip, just. 815 00:52:28,200 --> 00:52:32,320 Speaker 2: Grab a coffee, man, that's so weird. That's why Washington 816 00:52:32,440 --> 00:52:35,719 Speaker 2: really does freak me out. And it's not it's not 817 00:52:35,800 --> 00:52:37,960 Speaker 2: for the elected officials that you might see. It's for 818 00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:40,480 Speaker 2: the people that you cannot recognize, you've never seen them 819 00:52:40,520 --> 00:52:43,680 Speaker 2: before in your life, but they wheeled in some small, 820 00:52:43,760 --> 00:52:47,880 Speaker 2: soft way more power than anyone in Conquerens. 821 00:52:49,400 --> 00:52:55,319 Speaker 3: Absolutely absolutely agreed. You know, real power is silent pretty often, right, 822 00:52:56,040 --> 00:53:01,520 Speaker 3: And with this, you know, we we've posed a lot 823 00:53:01,560 --> 00:53:04,760 Speaker 3: of questions. We knew this could go in a thousand 824 00:53:04,880 --> 00:53:09,480 Speaker 3: different directions, and it's a conversation that continues, and it's 825 00:53:09,520 --> 00:53:13,320 Speaker 3: a conversation that we would love to have our fellow 826 00:53:13,360 --> 00:53:16,879 Speaker 3: conspiracy realists join. Please let us know, you know, let 827 00:53:16,960 --> 00:53:19,920 Speaker 3: us know about everything we've discussed, especially if you have 828 00:53:20,000 --> 00:53:23,080 Speaker 3: first hand experience. We'd love to hear from you. And 829 00:53:24,480 --> 00:53:27,920 Speaker 3: if you have been to the Oxford Cafe. Sorry, I'm 830 00:53:27,960 --> 00:53:31,040 Speaker 3: getting the angry hungers all right now. If you have 831 00:53:31,120 --> 00:53:33,400 Speaker 3: been to the Oxford Cafe, tell us about the PASTRAMI 832 00:53:34,360 --> 00:53:40,000 Speaker 3: super interested in that particular, amongst other things. Thank you 833 00:53:40,040 --> 00:53:45,200 Speaker 3: so much, folks for tuning in. We we have already Matt. 834 00:53:45,320 --> 00:53:47,840 Speaker 3: I think we've set up several episodes in the future. 835 00:53:48,760 --> 00:53:50,759 Speaker 3: We want you to be a part of those. 836 00:53:50,760 --> 00:53:51,120 Speaker 4: Folks. 837 00:53:51,160 --> 00:53:56,920 Speaker 3: Find us on Instagram, YouTube, Twitter or x and while 838 00:53:56,960 --> 00:54:00,560 Speaker 3: you're sipping those social meds, do check out of our 839 00:54:00,920 --> 00:54:02,839 Speaker 3: short form videos that we have done. 840 00:54:02,960 --> 00:54:04,080 Speaker 4: We love to do these. 841 00:54:04,440 --> 00:54:08,280 Speaker 3: Thank you to everybody who dropped by our Instagram earlier 842 00:54:08,920 --> 00:54:12,319 Speaker 3: and said stuff like you guys told me to be here, 843 00:54:12,360 --> 00:54:12,879 Speaker 3: so I'm here. 844 00:54:13,680 --> 00:54:21,480 Speaker 2: Take you so so wonderful and helpful and awesome, he said. 845 00:54:21,600 --> 00:54:24,319 Speaker 3: If you don't, if you don't sit social meds, we 846 00:54:24,400 --> 00:54:25,440 Speaker 3: one hundred percent get it. 847 00:54:26,120 --> 00:54:28,360 Speaker 4: We do have other ways to contact us. 848 00:54:28,680 --> 00:54:33,360 Speaker 2: Absolutely call one eight three three st d w y 849 00:54:33,520 --> 00:54:35,960 Speaker 2: t K. When you call in, you've got three minutes, 850 00:54:36,200 --> 00:54:38,120 Speaker 2: give yourself a cool nickname and let us know if 851 00:54:38,120 --> 00:54:40,200 Speaker 2: we can use your voice and message on the air. 852 00:54:41,000 --> 00:54:43,319 Speaker 2: If you if you don't want us to use it, 853 00:54:43,360 --> 00:54:45,360 Speaker 2: just say you don't want us to and that's fine. 854 00:54:45,400 --> 00:54:47,960 Speaker 2: We will always listen to your message, just like we 855 00:54:48,000 --> 00:54:49,960 Speaker 2: will always read your email. 856 00:54:50,840 --> 00:55:12,560 Speaker 3: We are conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com. 857 00:55:12,719 --> 00:55:14,760 Speaker 2: Stuff they don't want you to know. Is a production 858 00:55:14,880 --> 00:55:19,399 Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 859 00:55:19,480 --> 00:55:22,360 Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.