1
00:00:01,840 --> 00:00:06,800
Speaker 1: I came from a beautiful neighborhood, had a beautiful life.

2
00:00:07,040 --> 00:00:09,720
Speaker 2: I went to sleep because September seventh was the first

3
00:00:09,800 --> 00:00:11,920
Speaker 2: day of my high school year. I was going to

4
00:00:11,960 --> 00:00:12,760
Speaker 2: be a senior.

5
00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:14,760
Speaker 1: At twenty two, I was set to start college.

6
00:00:15,560 --> 00:00:18,400
Speaker 2: I woke up and my life was never the same again.

7
00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:22,439
Speaker 1: Cops came out with guns drawn, and I never saw

8
00:00:22,480 --> 00:00:26,279
Speaker 1: freedom ever since after that. It's like roach motw Once

9
00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:28,400
Speaker 1: you get in, you and I can't mouth.

10
00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:55,120
Speaker 2: This is wrongful conviction with Jason pom a true rock

11
00:00:55,120 --> 00:00:58,560
Speaker 2: star of the innocence movement, Keith Allen Harward along with

12
00:00:58,920 --> 00:01:01,640
Speaker 2: one of his attorneys on Salisman of the Great Firm

13
00:01:01,680 --> 00:01:05,000
Speaker 2: of Scatting. Keith, you were just a pretty much a

14
00:01:05,400 --> 00:01:08,720
Speaker 2: regular guy from from the Carolinas serving in the navy.

15
00:01:09,080 --> 00:01:11,160
Speaker 2: Uh in Virginia at the time, Is that right?

16
00:01:11,440 --> 00:01:15,200
Speaker 1: Yes, I was stationed in uh Newport News at the time.

17
00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:18,280
Speaker 1: I was on aircraft care being built at the shipyard.

18
00:01:18,360 --> 00:01:22,280
Speaker 1: Is there? And Uh, that's where it all all kind

19
00:01:22,280 --> 00:01:23,520
Speaker 1: of took place fell apart.

20
00:01:24,600 --> 00:01:27,160
Speaker 2: So Keith was in the navy, had been serving for

21
00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:30,080
Speaker 2: three years on the ship and uh, it's sort of

22
00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:32,520
Speaker 2: interesting how you got to that point In the first place.

23
00:01:32,880 --> 00:01:34,840
Speaker 1: You know, at that time it was six drugs and

24
00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:37,480
Speaker 1: rock and roll, and I was kind of involved all

25
00:01:37,520 --> 00:01:43,759
Speaker 1: of them, and who wasn't. Yeah, and I got tired

26
00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:46,160
Speaker 1: of that lifestyle. It was just it just caught up

27
00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:48,200
Speaker 1: with me and I needed a change. So I sided

28
00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:51,160
Speaker 1: one day I will joined the military. So I went

29
00:01:51,200 --> 00:01:53,400
Speaker 1: to the old Post officer in Greensboro and I sided.

30
00:01:53,400 --> 00:01:56,400
Speaker 1: The first door I come into recruiting office. It was

31
00:01:56,400 --> 00:01:57,600
Speaker 1: going to be the door where I was going to

32
00:01:57,680 --> 00:02:00,400
Speaker 1: walk into and that's the first door was in the door.

33
00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:04,280
Speaker 1: So I walked in there and signed up and went

34
00:02:04,360 --> 00:02:05,000
Speaker 1: pretty quick.

35
00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:05,280
Speaker 2: You know.

36
00:02:05,360 --> 00:02:08,680
Speaker 1: They wanted you know, well, we delay you for sixty days.

37
00:02:08,720 --> 00:02:10,960
Speaker 1: So I said, no, I want to go. So the

38
00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:13,800
Speaker 1: next day I was in Charlotte day Fees taking the test,

39
00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:16,680
Speaker 1: and the next day I was sitting in Chicago, Illinois

40
00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:18,799
Speaker 1: at boot camp. So it was a matter of three

41
00:02:18,880 --> 00:02:20,480
Speaker 1: days I was in it.

42
00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:23,360
Speaker 2: That's some radical fixing going on there. I mean, some

43
00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:25,520
Speaker 2: people like me would have just walked into AA and

44
00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:28,400
Speaker 2: been like, hey, you know, change of life, but you

45
00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:30,160
Speaker 2: decided to take it to the extreme.

46
00:02:30,760 --> 00:02:34,400
Speaker 1: Well, I mean to be able to get away from everything,

47
00:02:34,520 --> 00:02:37,000
Speaker 1: you've got to get away from everything, and you know,

48
00:02:37,280 --> 00:02:40,760
Speaker 1: friends or friends and come on, man, let's go. You know,

49
00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:44,280
Speaker 1: if I'm away from that, then I can't be influenced.

50
00:02:44,320 --> 00:02:47,040
Speaker 1: So that was my thinking. I got out of town

51
00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:50,959
Speaker 1: and started unnew. Well maybe things would work out.

52
00:02:51,040 --> 00:02:53,000
Speaker 2: So there you are, serving in the navy and a

53
00:02:53,040 --> 00:02:55,920
Speaker 2: horrible crime takes place pretty close to the shipyard. Is

54
00:02:55,960 --> 00:02:56,520
Speaker 2: that right? Right?

55
00:02:56,560 --> 00:02:59,519
Speaker 1: It was just on a few blocks away from the

56
00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:01,919
Speaker 1: gate to the shipyards.

57
00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:02,799
Speaker 2: And it was it was sort of like what we

58
00:03:02,840 --> 00:03:05,359
Speaker 2: would call now a home invasion, right, somebody broke into

59
00:03:05,400 --> 00:03:05,800
Speaker 2: a home.

60
00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:09,639
Speaker 1: The husband was killed, and after he was they were

61
00:03:09,639 --> 00:03:11,720
Speaker 1: in bed together and he came in and beat the

62
00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:14,639
Speaker 1: husband with a crowbar and just you know, it just

63
00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:19,040
Speaker 1: tore him up. And when he was done doing that,

64
00:03:19,160 --> 00:03:23,720
Speaker 1: then he took hold of the wife and sexual assault

65
00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:25,040
Speaker 1: for several hours.

66
00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:27,880
Speaker 2: Truly horrible situation. Yeah, it had to be. So they

67
00:03:27,919 --> 00:03:31,280
Speaker 2: didn't have any information other than that she had said

68
00:03:31,280 --> 00:03:35,280
Speaker 2: that the perpetrator was wearing a sailor's uniform. Is that right, right? Right?

69
00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:38,640
Speaker 1: So that's what cleued them into the shipyards, you know,

70
00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:43,640
Speaker 1: because the Newport News shipyards is away from Norfolk, which

71
00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:47,560
Speaker 1: is normally where you would find sailors and uh, that's

72
00:03:47,560 --> 00:03:49,240
Speaker 1: what clue the men was the fact that he was

73
00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:52,320
Speaker 1: wearing a uniform. So apparently he had to be on

74
00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:54,680
Speaker 1: one of the ships or submarines that were there being

75
00:03:54,760 --> 00:03:56,320
Speaker 1: repaired or built at the shipyard.

76
00:03:56,440 --> 00:03:58,040
Speaker 2: How many sailors are on the ship.

77
00:03:58,280 --> 00:04:01,680
Speaker 1: Well, the crew of the of aircraft carreer we're after

78
00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:03,680
Speaker 1: air wing somewhere a back three to five. But it

79
00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:07,000
Speaker 1: was being built, so it's probably two to three thousand guys.

80
00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:08,480
Speaker 2: A lot of guys for the cops to try to

81
00:04:08,480 --> 00:04:10,120
Speaker 2: figure this one out. Right, it's a tough one. So

82
00:04:10,560 --> 00:04:12,680
Speaker 2: months had gone by, right, and there's a lot of pressure, right,

83
00:04:12,680 --> 00:04:15,360
Speaker 2: nobody wants people take it very personally when someone's home

84
00:04:15,440 --> 00:04:16,760
Speaker 2: is invaded. I know I do when I read a

85
00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:18,880
Speaker 2: story about that in the paper. Everyone can relate because

86
00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:22,000
Speaker 2: everyone has a home. There's pressure on the cops. There's pressure.

87
00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:23,920
Speaker 2: They got to solve this, they got to get it there.

88
00:04:23,920 --> 00:04:26,640
Speaker 2: And there was even some politicians involved. And let's turn

89
00:04:26,680 --> 00:04:28,160
Speaker 2: to you don for a second. How did they land

90
00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:30,000
Speaker 2: on Keith? Of these thousands of guys.

91
00:04:30,080 --> 00:04:33,400
Speaker 3: The rape victim had told the police that during the rape,

92
00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:36,200
Speaker 3: the rapist had bitten her on the leg a few

93
00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:39,760
Speaker 3: times and the police took photographs of these bite marks

94
00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:43,360
Speaker 3: that appeared on her leg, which were essentially bruises from

95
00:04:43,720 --> 00:04:48,040
Speaker 3: the rapist teeth. And so, because the police suspected that

96
00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:51,320
Speaker 3: one of the sailors on this ship, the USS Carl Vincent,

97
00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:55,120
Speaker 3: was the rapist, they started looking at the dental records

98
00:04:55,680 --> 00:04:59,600
Speaker 3: of hundreds and maybe thousands of these sailors, and they

99
00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:02,560
Speaker 3: were trying to narrow down this big group of people

100
00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:06,039
Speaker 3: to a smaller group, and one of the people who's

101
00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:10,880
Speaker 3: you know, records they looked at was Keith's. But when

102
00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:13,360
Speaker 3: they looked at his records the first time they even

103
00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:17,640
Speaker 3: took an impression of his mouth, the dentist excluded Keith.

104
00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:20,200
Speaker 3: They said he was among the people who didn't match.

105
00:05:20,640 --> 00:05:24,600
Speaker 3: And so they kept looking for, you know, other suspects,

106
00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:25,680
Speaker 3: and that went on for a while.

107
00:05:25,800 --> 00:05:32,039
Speaker 2: But then something happened that led to Keith being to

108
00:05:32,080 --> 00:05:35,000
Speaker 2: them taking a renewed interest in looking at Keith, even

109
00:05:35,040 --> 00:05:39,120
Speaker 2: though they had had a professional, someone who was supposedly

110
00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:42,000
Speaker 2: certified and would have been qualified to give this opinion

111
00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:43,040
Speaker 2: to say that it wasn't him.

112
00:05:43,240 --> 00:05:46,599
Speaker 1: I had a girlfriend and we had gotten into a

113
00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:50,560
Speaker 1: fight and I bit her own the shoulder and the

114
00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:53,680
Speaker 1: police took her to the hospital to check her out,

115
00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:58,000
Speaker 1: and that's apparently when the light bulb went off that

116
00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:00,919
Speaker 1: you know, hey, we gotta bite or here. You know,

117
00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:04,280
Speaker 1: they were looking for somebody for a long time. And

118
00:06:04,320 --> 00:06:06,440
Speaker 1: then when the police found out and work got to

119
00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:10,960
Speaker 1: the detectives or whoever, that's when the light came home

120
00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:14,200
Speaker 1: for them and went on me. They pushed it so

121
00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:16,880
Speaker 1: I would show up at court for two reasons. One

122
00:06:17,400 --> 00:06:20,520
Speaker 1: the victim was in the audience, whatever you call it,

123
00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:24,040
Speaker 1: and also they wanted to get more impressions of my teeth.

124
00:06:24,360 --> 00:06:25,560
Speaker 1: I didn't know either one of these.

125
00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:27,720
Speaker 2: After having brought in on the charge in the first place,

126
00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:29,640
Speaker 2: you couldn't go back home where you were living with

127
00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:32,080
Speaker 2: her because you had just had this altercation and she

128
00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:34,800
Speaker 2: was an alcoholic and the whole situation was crazy. So

129
00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:37,760
Speaker 2: where'd you so tell the story about where'd you go

130
00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:38,200
Speaker 2: to sleep?

131
00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:40,000
Speaker 1: That I had no place to go, So I slept

132
00:06:40,040 --> 00:06:40,719
Speaker 1: in a dumpster.

133
00:06:41,320 --> 00:06:43,159
Speaker 2: But it was a particular dumpster, yeah it was.

134
00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:44,320
Speaker 3: It was a high end dumpster.

135
00:06:44,480 --> 00:06:44,680
Speaker 2: Yeah.

136
00:06:44,760 --> 00:06:47,920
Speaker 1: Yeah. There was a hat manufacturer and made baseball caps,

137
00:06:47,920 --> 00:06:50,360
Speaker 1: and they had a dumpster was filling nothing but material.

138
00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:52,600
Speaker 1: It was no food or anything in it. It was

139
00:06:52,680 --> 00:06:55,839
Speaker 1: all style foam and foam, rubber and cloth and that

140
00:06:55,920 --> 00:06:58,440
Speaker 1: kind of stuff. So it was, you know, right outside

141
00:06:58,440 --> 00:07:01,680
Speaker 1: the shipyard gate. I would walk by and I would

142
00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:04,160
Speaker 1: notice all this material laying on the ground, and I'd

143
00:07:04,200 --> 00:07:07,840
Speaker 1: stopped one time because cheap hats. It got the little

144
00:07:07,839 --> 00:07:10,720
Speaker 1: plastic things that you popped the size and with. And

145
00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:12,480
Speaker 1: I saw him on the ground and mine had broke

146
00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:14,800
Speaker 1: on my hat, so I went over and picked one up.

147
00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:17,720
Speaker 1: I just opened the dumpstrup look and said, man, this

148
00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:21,320
Speaker 1: place is nice. I wonder why there's nobody else living here,

149
00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:24,720
Speaker 1: you know kind of thing. So that night I thought, well,

150
00:07:24,840 --> 00:07:27,640
Speaker 1: you know, that was a close place to go. It

151
00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:29,960
Speaker 1: was close to the shipyard. It was pweening the house

152
00:07:30,040 --> 00:07:33,040
Speaker 1: where I was living at apartment in the shipyard. So

153
00:07:33,240 --> 00:07:34,080
Speaker 1: that's where I stayed.

154
00:07:34,280 --> 00:07:38,040
Speaker 3: Even though Keith now became a suspect because of this,

155
00:07:38,320 --> 00:07:41,200
Speaker 3: you know, this fight with his girlfriend. During a fight,

156
00:07:41,640 --> 00:07:47,600
Speaker 3: he really didn't match the descript description of the that

157
00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:50,760
Speaker 3: the victim gave because she said that the rapist was

158
00:07:50,960 --> 00:07:55,880
Speaker 3: nineteen years old, nineteen twenty years old, clean shaven, baby faced.

159
00:07:56,480 --> 00:08:01,040
Speaker 3: Keith was twenty six years old, had a mustache, and

160
00:08:01,760 --> 00:08:03,800
Speaker 3: he had a not a beard like but he had

161
00:08:03,800 --> 00:08:08,040
Speaker 3: a heavy, you know, five o'clock shadow type, you know,

162
00:08:08,960 --> 00:08:09,400
Speaker 3: in the air.

163
00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:13,760
Speaker 1: She said his head hair was radish. Mom was brown.

164
00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:17,880
Speaker 3: So Keith didn't he didn't match the description. But in

165
00:08:17,920 --> 00:08:22,120
Speaker 3: a lot of these cases, once the police and law enforcement,

166
00:08:22,200 --> 00:08:26,560
Speaker 3: you know, focus on somebody, they they don't pay attention

167
00:08:26,640 --> 00:08:30,160
Speaker 3: to the things that suggests that they got the wrong person.

168
00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:32,800
Speaker 3: And Keith, he did not meet the description of the

169
00:08:32,960 --> 00:08:34,200
Speaker 3: rapist in this case.

170
00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:37,959
Speaker 2: They've decided they want Keith locked up. They're going to

171
00:08:38,040 --> 00:08:42,880
Speaker 2: solve this case. We had this bad science, right, We

172
00:08:42,920 --> 00:08:46,880
Speaker 2: had bitemark evidence, which we now know has been completely discredited.

173
00:08:47,080 --> 00:08:51,199
Speaker 2: There was a recent study of dentists, forensic dentist and

174
00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:54,360
Speaker 2: odeontologists in which they found that the error raid was

175
00:08:54,480 --> 00:09:00,440
Speaker 2: ninety one percent junk science. Really, we had also another element,

176
00:09:00,520 --> 00:09:03,559
Speaker 2: which was which involved hypnosis, which sounds I'm sure to

177
00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:06,440
Speaker 2: the audience are going, no, we can't, that's ridiculous. You

178
00:09:06,480 --> 00:09:09,840
Speaker 2: can't have hypnosis in a capital murder case, because yours

179
00:09:09,880 --> 00:09:12,640
Speaker 2: was a capital murder case. Is that right? So let's

180
00:09:12,640 --> 00:09:14,679
Speaker 2: talk a little bit about that and the element that

181
00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:16,200
Speaker 2: this hypnotism played.

182
00:09:16,280 --> 00:09:19,120
Speaker 3: This crime got a lot of publicity and actually, you know,

183
00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:21,960
Speaker 3: the news media published, you know, it was on TV

184
00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:26,080
Speaker 3: and radio, and this this shipyard security guard heard the

185
00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:28,600
Speaker 3: story about a murder and a rape that had happened

186
00:09:29,080 --> 00:09:31,480
Speaker 3: just a couple blocks away from the shipyard. And he

187
00:09:31,520 --> 00:09:34,440
Speaker 3: actually was eating dinner at his home that night and

188
00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:36,120
Speaker 3: heard it on the radio and he said to his wife,

189
00:09:36,160 --> 00:09:39,600
Speaker 3: I think I saw someone suspicious. So he went down

190
00:09:39,640 --> 00:09:42,200
Speaker 3: to the police and they interviewed him, and he told

191
00:09:42,200 --> 00:09:45,040
Speaker 3: the police that he saw a guy who looked like

192
00:09:45,080 --> 00:09:48,320
Speaker 3: he was drunk, came to the gate to pass through,

193
00:09:48,400 --> 00:09:50,600
Speaker 3: you know, had to show a badge, but the guy did.

194
00:09:50,679 --> 00:09:52,720
Speaker 3: The guard didn't remember, you know, the name, or didn't

195
00:09:52,760 --> 00:09:55,480
Speaker 3: look at the name, but that the guy. He remembered

196
00:09:55,480 --> 00:09:57,640
Speaker 3: the guy because he had blood splat would look like

197
00:09:57,679 --> 00:10:02,000
Speaker 3: blood splattered all over his uniform. Later on six months,

198
00:10:02,280 --> 00:10:05,800
Speaker 3: during the next couple months, they hypnotized this guy to

199
00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:08,719
Speaker 3: try to get more information. And it was not uncommon

200
00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:12,760
Speaker 3: back in the day for the police to hypnotize witnesses

201
00:10:13,160 --> 00:10:16,520
Speaker 3: to see if they could remember more. The problem is

202
00:10:16,559 --> 00:10:19,640
Speaker 3: that that can really ruin someone's memory. It can change

203
00:10:19,679 --> 00:10:22,720
Speaker 3: someone's memory the hypnotism. It can have them fill in

204
00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:26,480
Speaker 3: gaps say things that they didn't actually remember, and so

205
00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:29,959
Speaker 3: it's really unreliable and it can corrupt the whole process.

206
00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:33,640
Speaker 3: So the shipyard security guard had given a description that

207
00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:37,760
Speaker 3: was vague, but he was shown a composite drawing that

208
00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:40,520
Speaker 3: the victim, the rape victim, had done with a police

209
00:10:41,040 --> 00:10:44,280
Speaker 3: you know, artist, and she had said that that person

210
00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:46,959
Speaker 3: looked ninety she was ninety five percent sure that that's

211
00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:49,679
Speaker 3: what the rapists looked like, or some very high percentage.

212
00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:52,800
Speaker 3: And they showed it to the shipyard security guard and

213
00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:55,080
Speaker 3: he said, yeah, that looks like seventy five percent like

214
00:10:55,800 --> 00:11:01,160
Speaker 3: the guy I saw walking into the shipyard. That composite

215
00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:04,320
Speaker 3: drawing had no mustache, because the victim has said that

216
00:11:04,360 --> 00:11:09,720
Speaker 3: the rapist was babyfaced. But after this guy was hypnotized,

217
00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:12,240
Speaker 3: he changed his story. He changed the time that he

218
00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:14,640
Speaker 3: said that he saw the guy. Now it was closer

219
00:11:14,679 --> 00:11:17,520
Speaker 3: to five o'clock, which matched, you know, with the time

220
00:11:17,559 --> 00:11:19,200
Speaker 3: that the rapist might have been coming back on the

221
00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:23,319
Speaker 3: ship's convenient And then he later was shown a photograph

222
00:11:23,400 --> 00:11:26,280
Speaker 3: or maybe a series of photos, including Keith's photo, after

223
00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:29,600
Speaker 3: the police focused on Keith, and he picked Keith's photograph

224
00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:31,199
Speaker 3: out and said that was the guy that I saw.

225
00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:33,960
Speaker 1: They didn't have anything to go with. There was really

226
00:11:34,080 --> 00:11:37,160
Speaker 1: no evidence in this trial. You know, there was no

227
00:11:37,280 --> 00:11:40,400
Speaker 1: finger prance, there were you know, there was there was

228
00:11:40,520 --> 00:11:44,120
Speaker 1: hardly nothing to go other than this bike mark stuff.

229
00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:46,760
Speaker 1: That's what they you know, that's what they were relying on,

230
00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:49,760
Speaker 1: and you know, like you said, it was unreliable.

231
00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:55,359
Speaker 3: Keith actually had sort of an alibi because the victim

232
00:11:55,800 --> 00:11:59,200
Speaker 3: had told the police that earlier in the day. You know,

233
00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:01,760
Speaker 3: she was tacked at two o'clock in the morning, but

234
00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:06,120
Speaker 3: the day before she had taken her kids to the

235
00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:10,040
Speaker 3: swimming pool because this was in September, and there was

236
00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:12,280
Speaker 3: a guy that she saw when she was getting in

237
00:12:12,320 --> 00:12:14,600
Speaker 3: the car with her kids who was hitch hiking, and

238
00:12:14,640 --> 00:12:19,760
Speaker 3: he was a sailor and he was angry that she

239
00:12:19,840 --> 00:12:23,360
Speaker 3: didn't pick him up hitchhiking, so he swore at her

240
00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:27,440
Speaker 3: and flipped her off. And she then said when she

241
00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:31,000
Speaker 3: got home from swimming with her kids later, she saw

242
00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:33,480
Speaker 3: what she thought was the same guy looking over her

243
00:12:33,520 --> 00:12:37,120
Speaker 3: fence in her backyard. And when she told the police

244
00:12:37,520 --> 00:12:40,000
Speaker 3: the next day, when you know, when they were interviewing

245
00:12:40,040 --> 00:12:42,680
Speaker 3: her after the rape, she said she was pretty sure

246
00:12:42,720 --> 00:12:46,360
Speaker 3: that the sailor she had seen the day before was

247
00:12:46,520 --> 00:12:50,160
Speaker 3: her rapist and at the time that she saw the

248
00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:53,280
Speaker 3: guy the second time looking over her back fence was

249
00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:56,600
Speaker 3: at six pm. That's what she told the police. And

250
00:12:56,640 --> 00:12:58,920
Speaker 3: at six pm Keith had an alibi. He was at

251
00:12:58,960 --> 00:13:03,800
Speaker 3: an alcohol education course he had signed in. The person

252
00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:07,440
Speaker 3: who ran the course remembered Keith and verified that he

253
00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:11,280
Speaker 3: was there in Norfolk, not in Newport News in Norfolk

254
00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:14,040
Speaker 3: at the time that she saw the guy who looked

255
00:13:14,440 --> 00:13:18,560
Speaker 3: like her rapist. Researchers who look at wrongful conviction cases

256
00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:23,040
Speaker 3: they identify the same problems that happen in these cases

257
00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:26,559
Speaker 3: over and over and over again, and there's about six

258
00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:29,640
Speaker 3: of them that commonly occur, and one of them is

259
00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:35,600
Speaker 3: poor representation by defense lawyers. In Keith's case, he actually

260
00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:38,800
Speaker 3: hit the trifecta in a bad way because he had

261
00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:43,559
Speaker 3: three of the common problems that arise in these wrongful

262
00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:48,680
Speaker 3: conviction cases happened in his case junk science, misidentification, and

263
00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:52,800
Speaker 3: the third one is prosecutorial and police misconduct that happens

264
00:13:52,840 --> 00:13:54,600
Speaker 3: in a lot of cases, and in keith case, we

265
00:13:54,640 --> 00:13:57,240
Speaker 3: haven't talked about that yet except for the hypnosis, but

266
00:13:57,320 --> 00:14:00,880
Speaker 3: there was misconduct by law enforcement in his case, right.

267
00:14:00,800 --> 00:14:04,000
Speaker 2: So he did certainly hit the wrong kind of try

268
00:14:04,040 --> 00:14:06,680
Speaker 2: fact that you can't hit it any worse, and ended

269
00:14:06,760 --> 00:14:10,040
Speaker 2: up serving thirty three years in prison. And let's let's

270
00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:12,760
Speaker 2: talk about that, Keith. Every day's got to be held.

271
00:14:12,600 --> 00:14:14,360
Speaker 2: But I mean, I don't want to put words in

272
00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:15,160
Speaker 2: your mouth because you share it.

273
00:14:15,240 --> 00:14:18,920
Speaker 1: No, no, And people always say that, you know, they can't imagine,

274
00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:21,760
Speaker 1: and it's with a good heart they say that, but

275
00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:25,120
Speaker 1: truly they can't. You know, unless you've been there, you

276
00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:28,600
Speaker 1: just don't. You just don't know. But what got me

277
00:14:28,680 --> 00:14:31,000
Speaker 1: through was the fact that I knew I was innocent

278
00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:35,320
Speaker 1: from day one, and I had hoped that they would

279
00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:37,880
Speaker 1: discover it because, like I told you before, this is

280
00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:40,440
Speaker 1: the United States of America. People don't get convicted for

281
00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:44,640
Speaker 1: crimes they did not do. But they do, and I'm

282
00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:48,000
Speaker 1: one of them. So all through the process of a trial,

283
00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:51,880
Speaker 1: and even until I was in prison for a while,

284
00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:55,160
Speaker 1: I was thinking, well, they're gonna figure this out. You know,

285
00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:58,840
Speaker 1: they made a mistake, They're gonna figure this out. It

286
00:14:59,240 --> 00:15:03,120
Speaker 1: didn't happen. But what got me through was was the

287
00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:06,800
Speaker 1: fact that Okay, they already convicted me, they put me

288
00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:10,640
Speaker 1: in prison, but I wasn't gonna allow those criminals. And

289
00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:13,720
Speaker 1: when I speak of criminals, I'm talking about the the

290
00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:17,960
Speaker 1: police officers and the prosecutors, the actual criminals of this case,

291
00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:21,880
Speaker 1: besides a fellow that did it. I wasn't gonna let

292
00:15:21,880 --> 00:15:25,040
Speaker 1: them exact another second from me. They had me, but

293
00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:28,120
Speaker 1: they weren't gonna get my mind. And if I allowed

294
00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:33,960
Speaker 1: them to make me punish myself even farther or do

295
00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:37,600
Speaker 1: anything disruptive in my life, even though I was in prison,

296
00:15:38,840 --> 00:15:40,800
Speaker 1: I was given them more, and I wasn't gonna give

297
00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:43,080
Speaker 1: no more. I wasn't gonna do it.

298
00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:45,720
Speaker 2: That's like a very spiritual approach.

299
00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:50,160
Speaker 1: Well, it's a lot of staring at walls and wondering, Wow,

300
00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:53,080
Speaker 1: what what just happened? I mean again, you can't you

301
00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:57,680
Speaker 1: can't fathom what it's like. It's like, what this happened.

302
00:15:58,160 --> 00:16:01,400
Speaker 1: It's like a car wreck, you know, once all the

303
00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:03,640
Speaker 1: movement is stopped and you're sitting there behind the wheel

304
00:16:03,640 --> 00:16:06,840
Speaker 1: with an airbag under your chin, you're thinking wow.

305
00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:21,120
Speaker 3: So Keith wrote to the Innocence Project. I think it

306
00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:23,280
Speaker 3: might have been sometime in like two thousand and eight

307
00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:24,160
Speaker 3: or something like that.

308
00:16:25,520 --> 00:16:27,520
Speaker 1: I didn't know the existed. I was in prison. I

309
00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:31,400
Speaker 1: didn't know these outfits existed. In another inmates said, hey, man,

310
00:16:31,800 --> 00:16:34,960
Speaker 1: your story is so crazy, why'd you give the Inciance

311
00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:37,000
Speaker 1: Project to try and write them a letter? So I

312
00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:39,280
Speaker 1: wrote them a letter and said, hey, you know, there

313
00:16:39,360 --> 00:16:43,280
Speaker 1: was no evidence. They convicted me on blite mark evidence alone.

314
00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:46,280
Speaker 1: I didn't do it, you know, And that basically what

315
00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:49,640
Speaker 1: the letter was, you know, you know, will you think right?

316
00:16:50,080 --> 00:16:52,720
Speaker 3: So his letter got to the Innocence Project in New York.

317
00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:56,560
Speaker 3: But they get letters from inmates all over the country,

318
00:16:56,680 --> 00:16:57,440
Speaker 3: thousands of.

319
00:16:57,480 --> 00:16:59,000
Speaker 2: Letters at least two months.

320
00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:04,639
Speaker 3: Yeah, they have a backlog of several thousand inmates, you know,

321
00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:07,560
Speaker 3: who've written to them, who they haven't yet had a

322
00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:09,399
Speaker 3: chance or at that point hadn't had a chance to

323
00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:13,240
Speaker 3: look at. The Innocence Project was looking at bitemark cases

324
00:17:13,320 --> 00:17:17,080
Speaker 3: because it is junk science, and there have been twenty

325
00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:20,120
Speaker 3: four now with Keith, twenty five people who had been

326
00:17:20,119 --> 00:17:24,159
Speaker 3: indicted based on bitemark evidence and were later exonerated. So

327
00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:28,159
Speaker 3: they were looking for cases that involved bite marks. So

328
00:17:28,359 --> 00:17:32,399
Speaker 3: Keith's file got plucked from the middle or somewhere in

329
00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:35,320
Speaker 3: the stack and put up to the top for someone

330
00:17:35,359 --> 00:17:38,280
Speaker 3: to look at. And one of the law students I

331
00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:43,160
Speaker 3: think or interns discovered that the evidence from Keith's case

332
00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:46,080
Speaker 3: was still in existence, you know, the physical evidence like that.

333
00:17:46,119 --> 00:17:48,840
Speaker 1: Which is the great marriage.

334
00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:52,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, now you've gotten engaged. The Innocence Project has gone

335
00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:53,760
Speaker 2: to scatt and right.

336
00:17:53,800 --> 00:17:55,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, they reached out to me because.

337
00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:57,640
Speaker 2: Which is like bringing in the big guns exactly, I mean.

338
00:17:57,920 --> 00:18:00,800
Speaker 3: And we put together this team and we started working

339
00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:04,359
Speaker 3: with the Innocence Project because they'd found the evidence. It

340
00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:07,440
Speaker 3: was this little box called a rape kit that has

341
00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:11,200
Speaker 3: you know, swabs from the victim, you know, and and

342
00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:15,320
Speaker 3: other evidence that the crime scene folks had taken and

343
00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:19,480
Speaker 3: had been taken from the autopsy and the rape exam.

344
00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:22,880
Speaker 3: And they were in the process of arranging to have

345
00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:26,280
Speaker 3: that tested, and to their credit, the prosecutor or the

346
00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:30,719
Speaker 3: current prosecutor down in Newport News, agreed to have the

347
00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:31,640
Speaker 3: evidence tested.

348
00:18:31,800 --> 00:18:34,960
Speaker 2: That's good to hear. When you were first made aware

349
00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:37,680
Speaker 2: of Keith's case by the NISS Project, how long did

350
00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:39,479
Speaker 2: it take before you realized that you had an innocent

351
00:18:39,520 --> 00:18:40,760
Speaker 2: man on your hands?

352
00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:42,720
Speaker 3: You know, I've done a lot of this kind of work.

353
00:18:43,359 --> 00:18:46,119
Speaker 3: And when we started looking into his case and we

354
00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:49,320
Speaker 3: read the transcripts and we realized how weak a case

355
00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:54,280
Speaker 3: of you know, the evidence was the only evidence that

356
00:18:54,359 --> 00:19:01,520
Speaker 3: the prosecutors used against Keith was this bitemark expert testimony,

357
00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:05,480
Speaker 3: which at the time was thought to be an actual

358
00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:09,040
Speaker 3: science that had validity, that was reliable, and you know

359
00:19:09,240 --> 00:19:11,880
Speaker 3: a bunch of experts. There were two experts who testified

360
00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:12,920
Speaker 3: in court and said that.

361
00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:15,639
Speaker 2: And there are four others. Well, I think about that,

362
00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:17,960
Speaker 2: right if you're in a jury and you're sitting there

363
00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:21,480
Speaker 2: and you go, wow, this guy's a forensic diss and

364
00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:23,760
Speaker 2: he's got that. But we know now that it's really

365
00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:28,879
Speaker 2: an unregulated, uh sort of practice. It's not certified by

366
00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:33,399
Speaker 2: any particular You can be a forensic od On toleraniologist,

367
00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:35,880
Speaker 2: but basically you get certified by your friends.

368
00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:38,240
Speaker 1: Pretty much show up at the Shart and Old Friday,

369
00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:39,960
Speaker 1: you know, Sunday to give you a diploma.

370
00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:42,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's really well, here's the thing, you know,

371
00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:42,920
Speaker 2: it's terrible.

372
00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:48,200
Speaker 3: This science was actually developed not for use in court,

373
00:19:48,359 --> 00:19:50,840
Speaker 3: like in a case for Keith, but when there's like

374
00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:54,440
Speaker 3: a mass disaster and they find the remains of victims

375
00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:57,879
Speaker 3: and included in the remains or you know, the teeth

376
00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:00,679
Speaker 3: and the jaw, and then they want to try to

377
00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:03,560
Speaker 3: identify that person. So they think they know who the

378
00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:06,280
Speaker 3: victims are, but they're not sure who's who. Then they

379
00:20:06,280 --> 00:20:09,679
Speaker 3: can look at dental records, but that's looking at, you know,

380
00:20:09,720 --> 00:20:12,240
Speaker 3: someone's full set of teeth, like thirty two teeth in

381
00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:17,480
Speaker 3: a john comparing that to X rays or other dental records.

382
00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:21,159
Speaker 3: It's very different doing that, which is noble work. You

383
00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:24,400
Speaker 3: know people who do that. But it's very different when

384
00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:27,359
Speaker 3: you try to say, based on a blurry photograph of

385
00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:32,040
Speaker 3: a woman's shin to look at that where you know,

386
00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:35,680
Speaker 3: if someone bites another person, maybe only four teeth make

387
00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:39,080
Speaker 3: the bite marks six or two or whatever. Then to

388
00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:44,600
Speaker 3: say with almost certainty that the person who bit that

389
00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:49,040
Speaker 3: victim's leg was Keith Harwood is a very different matter.

390
00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:52,360
Speaker 2: No, I've seen a case where they the bite bark

391
00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:54,919
Speaker 2: evidence was the primary cause of the conviction, and it

392
00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:57,879
Speaker 2: turned out later on that it wasn't even a human

393
00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:00,440
Speaker 2: it was animal bibars. The victim had been thrown in

394
00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:02,040
Speaker 2: a scar inver a scar.

395
00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:05,000
Speaker 1: One of the guys testified that it was a bike Martin.

396
00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:08,000
Speaker 1: It turned out to be a scar from injury. But

397
00:21:08,359 --> 00:21:12,080
Speaker 1: that's what swayed that jury. So is when that character.

398
00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:15,600
Speaker 1: Levigne is his name, and when he started getting up

399
00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:19,520
Speaker 1: and giving all his props, he helped go. He went

400
00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:24,680
Speaker 1: to Argentina for the mingle at, you know, the Nazi

401
00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:27,600
Speaker 1: criminal guy when they found a skull and tried identify

402
00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:30,200
Speaker 1: that he was involved with that. There was an airplane

403
00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:33,280
Speaker 1: crash in Hawaii, I think in seventy nine. He went

404
00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:36,800
Speaker 1: to identify remains there. So he's up there and his

405
00:21:37,359 --> 00:21:40,440
Speaker 1: arms are waving around, and the smoke starts to come

406
00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:43,560
Speaker 1: and the lights and stuff, and you think, wow, we're

407
00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:47,000
Speaker 1: not in Kansas anymore. I e. The Wizard of Oz.

408
00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:51,119
Speaker 1: The jury is like, you know, they're sopping up the drool. Sure,

409
00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:54,120
Speaker 1: and he says so the state brought him in. Sure

410
00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:58,000
Speaker 1: that if he say so, he's got to be and.

411
00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:00,800
Speaker 3: He said it with almost near certain He said that

412
00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:04,920
Speaker 3: there was a very very very very high probability that

413
00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:08,240
Speaker 3: Keith was the person who caused those bite marks. And

414
00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:12,400
Speaker 3: another expert came in and said, there's nobody else in

415
00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:14,720
Speaker 3: the world. There's maybe he didn't say the world, but

416
00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:18,040
Speaker 3: there's nobody else who could have caused these bite marks

417
00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:21,919
Speaker 3: rather than other than Keith's dental impressions, which means it

418
00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:37,800
Speaker 3: was Keith. I said before that there was you know,

419
00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:43,520
Speaker 3: misconduct by law enforcement on the rape kit. At the

420
00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:45,920
Speaker 3: time of this trial, and at the time of the crime,

421
00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:49,679
Speaker 3: they had a syrologist, someone who specializes in analyzing blood

422
00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:53,600
Speaker 3: and other body fluids, examined the samples from the rape victim,

423
00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:58,800
Speaker 3: including you know, vaginal samples, and they found semen on

424
00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:02,080
Speaker 3: the victim's thoughts and on the vaginal swabs and other

425
00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:05,000
Speaker 3: swabs that were taken, and they tested it for blood

426
00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:09,320
Speaker 3: blood type. Because at the time there was no DNA testing.

427
00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:11,840
Speaker 3: This was nineteen eighty three, his first trial, and then

428
00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:14,320
Speaker 3: nineteen eighty six, his second trial, there was no DNA

429
00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:21,399
Speaker 3: evidence report. So the roologist examined the evidence and issued

430
00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:25,160
Speaker 3: a report, and the report said that on the swabs

431
00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:29,439
Speaker 3: from the rape kit that it was inconclusive that they

432
00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:33,560
Speaker 3: couldn't identify on the critical swabs the blood type and

433
00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:37,720
Speaker 3: therefore it could have been Keith or it might not

434
00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:42,320
Speaker 3: have been Keith. And that's what he testified to at trial. Well,

435
00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:45,560
Speaker 3: when the Innocence Project in Scadden got involved in the case,

436
00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:48,399
Speaker 3: we asked for records and among the records that we

437
00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:51,320
Speaker 3: asked for, and again to the credit of the prosecutor.

438
00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:54,640
Speaker 3: He was agreed to turn over information that had never

439
00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:57,800
Speaker 3: been turned over before. We got the lab notes from

440
00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:00,920
Speaker 3: the analyst. So he had issued a like a three

441
00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:05,360
Speaker 3: page official report that essentially said no blood typing could

442
00:24:05,359 --> 00:24:08,440
Speaker 3: be done on those critical swabs. But in his notes,

443
00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:10,800
Speaker 3: in his lab notes, it showed that he did get

444
00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:14,480
Speaker 3: a blood type that was not Keith's. It was Type

445
00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:16,679
Speaker 3: old blood and Keith is Type A blood.

446
00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:19,320
Speaker 2: So he I just got the chills.

447
00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:21,240
Speaker 1: If that would have been brought up at court, where

448
00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:22,560
Speaker 1: it wouldn't have been a court, it wouldn't have been

449
00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:22,960
Speaker 1: a trial.

450
00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:26,880
Speaker 2: So now you've got your you've got your evidence, you've

451
00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:29,879
Speaker 2: done you've done the digging, right, you and your team,

452
00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:33,560
Speaker 2: the Innocence Project and their team. You've met with Keith

453
00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:36,359
Speaker 2: by now, right, and anybody that would meet him knows

454
00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:38,680
Speaker 2: that he might be capable of telling a bad joke,

455
00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:41,240
Speaker 2: but that's probably the worst crime that he's going to commit,

456
00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:47,040
Speaker 2: you know. So, So now take us to that moment

457
00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:50,600
Speaker 2: of justice finally being served.

458
00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:54,600
Speaker 3: Sure, so, we had DNA testing done on the evidence

459
00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:57,560
Speaker 3: that the Innocence Project had found, and the DNA results

460
00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:00,679
Speaker 3: came back. First, they showed that the the rape sample

461
00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:04,679
Speaker 3: evidence didn't match Keith, that there was an unknown male

462
00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:08,960
Speaker 3: profile that didn't match Keith. Then we needed to do

463
00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:14,200
Speaker 3: more testing because the victim was married and her husband

464
00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:17,240
Speaker 3: was murdered, and we needed to make sure that the

465
00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:21,640
Speaker 3: seamen samples that were DNA tested didn't belong to him.

466
00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:24,960
Speaker 3: And there was more DNA testing done, so we knew

467
00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:27,960
Speaker 3: we had an innocent guy all along. Now we had

468
00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:31,520
Speaker 3: DNA evidence, which I think you know, pretty much conclusively

469
00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:33,320
Speaker 3: proved that, but we needed to make sure it wasn't

470
00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:37,040
Speaker 3: matching the husband. And we got the test results back

471
00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:40,040
Speaker 3: right as we had just filed the petition saying we had,

472
00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:45,080
Speaker 3: you know, preliminary results, and the new testing not only

473
00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:48,520
Speaker 3: showed that it wasn't Keith's DNA, it wasn't the victim's

474
00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:53,960
Speaker 3: husband's DNA, but it showed whose DNA it was. The

475
00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:57,160
Speaker 3: police originally suspected that a sailor on the USS Carl

476
00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:00,560
Speaker 3: Vincent committed this crime. They were right about that because

477
00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:03,280
Speaker 3: the DNA matched a guy who was a sailor on

478
00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:08,200
Speaker 3: the USS Carl Vincent. His name is Jerry Kroty, and

479
00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:12,080
Speaker 3: after he left the Navy he went on with his life.

480
00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:16,520
Speaker 3: Keith was in prison and he ended up Jerry Krotty

481
00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:19,880
Speaker 3: committing other crimes, and he was in prison in Ohio

482
00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:24,040
Speaker 3: for an abduction, which is another word for a kidnapping.

483
00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:31,959
Speaker 3: He also had convictions for breaking into houses and he

484
00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:34,800
Speaker 3: died in prison in two thousand and six, ten years before.

485
00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:39,320
Speaker 3: His DNA was matched in multiple places on the victim

486
00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:42,240
Speaker 3: from the rape kit, on her clothing she put on

487
00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:45,399
Speaker 3: a T shirt after the rape. His DNA was found

488
00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:47,479
Speaker 3: on the T shirt. His DNA was found on a

489
00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:50,640
Speaker 3: towel that she wrapped around her after the rape. When

490
00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:52,920
Speaker 3: the police came, she was wearing a towel and the

491
00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:55,720
Speaker 3: rapist had put karate. Now we know his name is Karate.

492
00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:58,960
Speaker 3: He had put a diaper, one of her children's diapers

493
00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:01,840
Speaker 3: over her face when he was raping her, and his

494
00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:06,080
Speaker 3: DNA was found on that daper. So there's absolutely no

495
00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:09,560
Speaker 3: doubt that he was the rapist.

496
00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:16,959
Speaker 1: Now consider her situation. Now she thinks the rapist is

497
00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:21,160
Speaker 1: in prison me, so she can relax a little bit

498
00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:27,600
Speaker 1: because he's not going to come back. Years later, thirty

499
00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:32,080
Speaker 1: four years later, she finds out no, he was still

500
00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:35,399
Speaker 1: out there running around and could have come back at

501
00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:38,920
Speaker 1: any time, and she's got to relive this because those

502
00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:43,240
Speaker 1: criminals in Newport News wanted a conviction, not the truth.

503
00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:46,480
Speaker 1: So now all these years later, it comes back up,

504
00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:50,439
Speaker 1: it's brought. It's like scrabbing a scab. She's got to

505
00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:52,639
Speaker 1: relive that whole rape thing because it's on the news,

506
00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:56,199
Speaker 1: it's everywhere that I'm being exonerated that I didn't do

507
00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:57,320
Speaker 1: it right.

508
00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:01,560
Speaker 2: The guy who did this horrible thing to her family, right.

509
00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:03,760
Speaker 1: Could have still been out there and done more, and

510
00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:05,720
Speaker 1: he did, but he could have come back. And for

511
00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:09,120
Speaker 1: that woman, I feel for her. She was re victimized

512
00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:12,560
Speaker 1: by those criminals in Newport News, by them shortcutting and

513
00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:16,280
Speaker 1: taking the easy way out, by not trying to find

514
00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:19,879
Speaker 1: the right person. The guy Karate that did it was

515
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:22,560
Speaker 1: a wall when all his testing was going on about

516
00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:25,840
Speaker 1: the bick marks and stuff. So what they do, Well,

517
00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:27,520
Speaker 1: he's gone. We ain't got time to look for him.

518
00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:28,800
Speaker 1: We got the guy here he is.

519
00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:31,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, So and that's that's what happens.

520
00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:34,760
Speaker 1: They're dead, all of them. But the rologists are gone now,

521
00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:38,440
Speaker 1: the prosecutor, you know, and it's all about ego with them,

522
00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:42,080
Speaker 1: you know, they get a hold of something. The detective

523
00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:47,520
Speaker 1: in my case, spinner, After that I was convicted. He

524
00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:49,760
Speaker 1: took one of the moles and went to a foundry

525
00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:53,280
Speaker 1: and had brass a brass mold of my teethmaid to

526
00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:56,160
Speaker 1: make a paperweight wow for his desk. Now, how is

527
00:28:56,200 --> 00:29:01,080
Speaker 1: that knowing what he did that I didn't do it?

528
00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:05,040
Speaker 2: He had to know, Keith. You know, I'm a big

529
00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:08,400
Speaker 2: fan of yours and I just I listened to you

530
00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:12,080
Speaker 2: talk and I'm frankly in awe. Is there anything else,

531
00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:14,480
Speaker 2: any closing thoughts you want to share with the audience.

532
00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:20,720
Speaker 1: These organizations exist, the incent Projects, and people don't know

533
00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:23,320
Speaker 1: about them. I mean, you turn the TV on and

534
00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:26,720
Speaker 1: they want Sally Scruthers wants you to give dog money

535
00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:29,920
Speaker 1: for dogs and stuff like that. But these organizations are no.

536
00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:32,440
Speaker 1: I was in prison and didn't know about the Innocent Project.

537
00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:34,680
Speaker 1: I had no clue and I was in prison of

538
00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:37,440
Speaker 1: all places. We should know about these things. So the

539
00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:40,080
Speaker 1: word needs to get out and people need to help.

540
00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:45,360
Speaker 1: Because my heroes they get up every day, they washed

541
00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:47,160
Speaker 1: their face, they brush their teeth and then put the

542
00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:49,360
Speaker 1: capes on and then go out and save the people.

543
00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:52,120
Speaker 1: And that's the kind of people that we all should.

544
00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:58,400
Speaker 2: Be about it. Don't forget to give us a fantastic review.

545
00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:02,120
Speaker 2: Wherever you get your podcasts, it really helps. And I'm

546
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:04,800
Speaker 2: a proud donor to the Innocence Project and I really

547
00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:07,920
Speaker 2: hope you'll join me in supporting this very important cause

548
00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:12,200
Speaker 2: and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocenceproject

549
00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:14,960
Speaker 2: dot org to learn how to donate and get involved.

550
00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:17,840
Speaker 2: I'd like to thank our production team, Connor Hall and

551
00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:20,640
Speaker 2: Kevin Wartis. The music in the show is by three

552
00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:24,040
Speaker 2: time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow

553
00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:27,600
Speaker 2: us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at

554
00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:31,560
Speaker 2: Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm is a

555
00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:35,400
Speaker 2: production of Lava for Good Podcasts in association with Signal

556
00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:36,240
Speaker 2: Company Number one