WEBVTT - Fight Less At Work 0:00:02.080 --> 0:00:06.199 So what percent of your time is dedicated to the podcast. 0:00:09.800 --> 0:00:12.039 I'm gonna ask you about some things that have been 0:00:12.119 --> 0:00:16.200 challenges between the two of you. What do you think 0:00:16.239 --> 0:00:20.720 gets in the way of your communicating more directly Tobecca, 0:00:21.960 --> 0:00:26.720 you're trying to corral Francesca and you're feeling spoken down 0:00:26.800 --> 0:00:32.199 to what are one of our couple of Francesca's buttons that, 0:00:32.280 --> 0:00:34.320 by the way, thank you very much for closing that. 0:00:35.120 --> 0:00:39.400 This week on Works for Me, we get grilled m. 0:00:49.400 --> 0:00:51.840 Welcome to Works for Me, the show where we test 0:00:51.880 --> 0:00:55.480 out productivity strategies on our own personal problems to find 0:00:55.480 --> 0:00:58.560 out if they'll work for you. I'm back at Greenfield 0:00:58.840 --> 0:01:02.800 and I'm Francesco Leavy. This week it's Francesco's turn and 0:01:03.160 --> 0:01:07.160 Becca's turn to tackle a thorny workplace problem. We're doing 0:01:07.200 --> 0:01:10.319 things a bit differently this week. Instead of one of 0:01:10.440 --> 0:01:13.080 us taking on something we're struggling with at work, we're 0:01:13.120 --> 0:01:17.880 going to solve a problem together. Yeah. So we're right 0:01:17.880 --> 0:01:20.240 in the middle of making this first season of our show, 0:01:20.840 --> 0:01:23.320 and we realized that we have a work issue we 0:01:23.360 --> 0:01:27.680 could both address how to work together better as a team. 0:01:27.800 --> 0:01:30.600 We're in close contact a lot for this podcast and 0:01:30.959 --> 0:01:34.720 naturally attentions arise. But we also realized we've never treated 0:01:34.720 --> 0:01:37.680 our own collaboration as a thing to work on. We've 0:01:37.680 --> 0:01:40.720 just kind of taken it for granted. Yeah, like any team, 0:01:40.880 --> 0:01:44.240 we we have conflict, We get into fights, and we 0:01:44.319 --> 0:01:47.240 don't really address though I wouldn't say we avoid them, 0:01:47.480 --> 0:01:49.960 but we've never taken the time to sit down and 0:01:50.280 --> 0:01:53.960 talk through how we feel about a conflict about it. 0:01:54.520 --> 0:01:57.920 We just move, keep on keeping, keep on moving. And 0:01:57.960 --> 0:02:01.320 I think that's true for most teams of people working 0:02:01.320 --> 0:02:05.200 closely together. You do the work, sometimes there's these little 0:02:05.280 --> 0:02:09.160 moments of frustration, and you just keep on going with 0:02:09.160 --> 0:02:12.160 the work. You know, actually consider the relationship. So that's 0:02:12.160 --> 0:02:14.200 what we're gonna do this week. We're going to focus 0:02:14.240 --> 0:02:24.919 on how to work better together. So the first thing 0:02:25.000 --> 0:02:27.720 we did was we went out and found a duo 0:02:27.960 --> 0:02:32.359 that's been working together well for years. I am Erica Cerulo, 0:02:32.480 --> 0:02:35.240 one of the co founders of a kind of business 0:02:35.280 --> 0:02:37.480 that I started with one of my best friends from college, 0:02:37.480 --> 0:02:40.240 Claire Maser, and I'm Claire Maser. I'm the other half 0:02:40.280 --> 0:02:44.400 of this of a kind co founding work life writing team. 0:02:44.480 --> 0:02:46.880 Claire and Erica have been friends for seventeen years and 0:02:46.919 --> 0:02:49.760 business partners for nine, and they spent a long time 0:02:49.800 --> 0:02:53.040 figuring out how to make their working relationship thrive. I 0:02:53.040 --> 0:02:55.000 would say one of the things that we've learned over 0:02:55.000 --> 0:02:57.320 the course of our relationship is a willingness to be 0:02:57.400 --> 0:03:00.359 vulnerable with one another, to not be afraid that if 0:03:00.400 --> 0:03:03.160 you express that you're overwhelmed, or that you know stuff's 0:03:03.160 --> 0:03:05.079 not going well, or you don't feel great about a project, 0:03:05.240 --> 0:03:06.720 to not be afraid that the other person is going 0:03:06.720 --> 0:03:08.720 to judge you forward and be like, oh, she's really 0:03:08.760 --> 0:03:10.839 fallen off. And I think the other thing that goes 0:03:10.880 --> 0:03:13.560 hand in hand with that is transparency. I think the 0:03:13.639 --> 0:03:16.120 more you can share with one another, whether that be 0:03:16.200 --> 0:03:20.240 about you know, context of your professional life outside of 0:03:20.280 --> 0:03:23.000 just your relationship, or even context of your personal life, 0:03:23.200 --> 0:03:27.400 the more that helps inform the other person's understanding of everything, 0:03:27.440 --> 0:03:31.320 including your vulnerabilities. Claire and Erica also believe that the 0:03:31.360 --> 0:03:35.040 power of female friendship has helped them succeed. For their 0:03:35.080 --> 0:03:37.440 new book, Work Life, coming out in March, they talk 0:03:37.520 --> 0:03:40.960 to other successful female payers to explore what special about 0:03:40.960 --> 0:03:44.400 women working together we think about the qualities of female 0:03:44.440 --> 0:03:47.560 friendship that when they start becoming part of the workplace, 0:03:47.680 --> 0:03:51.920 reshape the workplace. Just the caretaker role that women often 0:03:52.080 --> 0:03:55.600 play by nature of the way our society works and 0:03:55.760 --> 0:03:59.360 has worked, means that they bring more fluidity and so 0:03:59.560 --> 0:04:02.480 by lee with these qualities like compassion and vulnerability and 0:04:02.520 --> 0:04:06.680 emotional transparency, you just create a totally different environment. What 0:04:06.720 --> 0:04:08.960 I like about their point of view is that they 0:04:09.000 --> 0:04:11.360 treat being women like an asset and not a liability, 0:04:11.480 --> 0:04:14.000 like I think a lot of the times that when 0:04:14.000 --> 0:04:15.840 people talk about women working together, there are a lot 0:04:15.840 --> 0:04:19.640 of negative stereotypes about it, and they instead their whole 0:04:19.640 --> 0:04:22.920 take is women actually bring qualities to working together that 0:04:23.040 --> 0:04:37.520 make businesses better and hopefully podcasts. So our problem is 0:04:37.600 --> 0:04:40.320 that we think we could work better as a team. 0:04:40.360 --> 0:04:43.120 Ideally we'd work together as well as Claire and Erica do. 0:04:43.760 --> 0:04:45.559 So we dug a little deeper with them to figure 0:04:45.600 --> 0:04:48.240 out how they got to such a healthy place, and 0:04:48.880 --> 0:04:52.240 Claire told us they see a management coach. It's not 0:04:52.279 --> 0:04:55.280 necessarily right for everybody, but when you're working really closely 0:04:55.320 --> 0:04:57.360 with some one day and and day out, it can 0:04:57.400 --> 0:05:00.440 be huge. We say that he's one part executively ship, 0:05:00.480 --> 0:05:04.719 one part therapist, and one part marriage counselor clarien Erica 0:05:04.960 --> 0:05:07.600 essentially go to couples therapy. I know, I was kind 0:05:07.600 --> 0:05:09.559 of relieved to hear that that they weren't just born 0:05:09.640 --> 0:05:12.320 perfect collaborators. And also I had no idea that there 0:05:12.320 --> 0:05:15.280 were people who do that, who will just be your 0:05:15.480 --> 0:05:19.680 work wife couple therapists. I love it. So that's this 0:05:19.760 --> 0:05:23.360 week's experiment. We're going to find a management coach and 0:05:23.480 --> 0:05:27.600 see if one session can help us improve our working relationship. Well, 0:05:27.600 --> 0:05:30.560 consider the experiment as success if a week after our 0:05:30.560 --> 0:05:34.640 session we've implemented any of the coach's tips to solve 0:05:34.800 --> 0:05:39.200 a problem. I'm extremely nervous. I'm just terrified at the 0:05:39.240 --> 0:05:42.120 idea of having to kind of think through this stuff 0:05:42.160 --> 0:05:44.479 and talk openly about it. It's a weird thing to 0:05:44.480 --> 0:05:47.760 do at work. It's way easier to just let it fuster. 0:05:59.000 --> 0:06:02.640 We found a management coach named Ben Micalis, who, according 0:06:02.680 --> 0:06:06.120 to his website, Dr ben Micalis dot com, is an 0:06:06.120 --> 0:06:10.039 elite performance coach for CEOs and business partners. He costs 0:06:10.080 --> 0:06:14.480 four hundred dollars an hour procession, so not cheap. Before 0:06:14.520 --> 0:06:17.120 we met him in person, then asked us to take 0:06:17.160 --> 0:06:20.120 some time to think about our relationship. He wanted us 0:06:20.160 --> 0:06:23.000 to send an email with some things we liked about 0:06:23.000 --> 0:06:26.200 working together and some things we didn't. But this part 0:06:26.279 --> 0:06:29.400 definitely made it feel real for me. I don't know 0:06:29.440 --> 0:06:32.880 about you. Yeah, it was like uncomfortable to put to 0:06:33.520 --> 0:06:36.800 words my thoughts and feelings. Yeah, and I knew you 0:06:36.800 --> 0:06:38.440 were never going to read the email because we sent 0:06:38.560 --> 0:06:40.919 separate emails to him, and even just writing down my 0:06:41.160 --> 0:06:44.040 private thoughts about what I thought we could work on 0:06:45.200 --> 0:06:50.640 was nerve wracking without dangerous. Then after that stressful experience, 0:06:50.800 --> 0:06:54.039 the day of the session arrived, I feel like I'm 0:06:54.080 --> 0:06:56.279 like interviewing right now with the two of you, like 0:06:56.279 --> 0:07:01.400 like I mean, like the job. Ben met us on 0:07:01.440 --> 0:07:06.279 a Friday morning. We sat down facing each other, made 0:07:06.279 --> 0:07:09.920 some small talk, and got started, and now we're just 0:07:09.960 --> 0:07:12.640 going to play you an edited version of what happened next. 0:07:14.600 --> 0:07:16.640 So you know, I'm I'm pretty direct, and so I'm 0:07:16.640 --> 0:07:18.880 gonna ask questions and if you don't want to answer them, 0:07:19.120 --> 0:07:21.520 like feel free to just not answer them. But I 0:07:21.800 --> 0:07:24.480 actually my goal is for both of you to actually 0:07:24.480 --> 0:07:26.240 have real takeaways at the end of today, so that 0:07:26.320 --> 0:07:29.280 like you actually have some things to to use. So 0:07:29.400 --> 0:07:32.400 this is not just helpful for people outside, but for 0:07:32.440 --> 0:07:35.440 the two of you. What would you say, Becca, is 0:07:35.680 --> 0:07:40.200 one of your favorite things about working with Francesca? Yeah, yeah, 0:07:40.200 --> 0:07:43.360 you can say several of them. Well, I like, I mean, 0:07:43.400 --> 0:07:45.280 we like each other, Like I like hanging out with 0:07:45.280 --> 0:07:47.600 somebody who's I like to hang out with. We talk 0:07:47.680 --> 0:07:50.400 about a lot of things, and we have similar interests 0:07:50.400 --> 0:07:52.440 and like talking about the same thing. So that's cool 0:07:52.480 --> 0:07:55.160 and really fun. And then more on like a work 0:07:55.240 --> 0:07:58.320 note that I think to a lot of good big 0:07:58.360 --> 0:08:01.880 picture ideas, so like this as our idea. I have 0:08:01.920 --> 0:08:04.240 a hard time timing up with ideas. Everyone does, so 0:08:04.320 --> 0:08:06.200 it's nice to work with somebody who came up with 0:08:06.200 --> 0:08:08.800 good ideas that you get to work on. That's so nice. 0:08:09.920 --> 0:08:11.840 And how about you, Um, well, I would say the 0:08:11.880 --> 0:08:15.360 same thing that like, I think we're we're compatible as friends. 0:08:15.600 --> 0:08:20.120 She's really thoughtful about giving critiques and edits. She'll go 0:08:20.160 --> 0:08:23.080 through a script and or an episode and give me 0:08:23.120 --> 0:08:25.400 her thoughts on it. And she's not she's not rude, 0:08:25.480 --> 0:08:28.600 but she's direct about what you know she thinks needs 0:08:28.640 --> 0:08:31.760 to be changed, and I'll usually agree, or if I 0:08:31.800 --> 0:08:33.680 don't like, we'll talk through it and we'll come to 0:08:33.679 --> 0:08:36.160 another decision. Obviously, the two of you really like each other, 0:08:36.160 --> 0:08:38.840 you really respect each other, and which is great. So 0:08:38.920 --> 0:08:40.920 really we're we're doing is we're looking at sort of 0:08:40.960 --> 0:08:44.200 optimizing your relationship, which is a great, great place to be. 0:08:44.760 --> 0:08:48.079 So what we're going to move into now is I'm 0:08:48.080 --> 0:08:50.840 gonna ask you about some things that have been challenges 0:08:51.400 --> 0:08:52.880 between the two of you, and I'm going to let 0:08:52.920 --> 0:08:57.880 either of you start. I can start, okay, since Becca 0:08:57.920 --> 0:09:02.720 started with the nice things. UM So I am really 0:09:02.760 --> 0:09:06.800 oversubscribed with all of my other work, and that's my fault. 0:09:07.480 --> 0:09:12.120 But UM, I feel like that sometimes assumes that I 0:09:11.240 --> 0:09:14.880 I'm just not working hard enough on this project because 0:09:15.600 --> 0:09:18.080 I'm not or because I'm you know, I'm putting an 0:09:18.120 --> 0:09:20.880 offer and being lazy. And I think that I have 0:09:20.960 --> 0:09:24.320 often had to triage, and I have found myself triaging, 0:09:24.360 --> 0:09:26.959 and I have bumped this show down the priority list 0:09:27.559 --> 0:09:30.000 at times, and so I think that that pisces back off. 0:09:30.040 --> 0:09:32.640 And then I think that she will sometimes demand a 0:09:32.720 --> 0:09:34.880 lot of time for the show, or request a lot 0:09:34.960 --> 0:09:37.960 of time for the show. Um in a way that 0:09:38.000 --> 0:09:41.080 makes me feel a little bit like she just doesn't 0:09:41.600 --> 0:09:43.320 she doesn't think I'm working hard enough on it, but 0:09:43.360 --> 0:09:45.760 I I feel like I also just have other things 0:09:45.800 --> 0:09:48.959 to do. Any thoughts about that, By the way, thank 0:09:48.960 --> 0:09:51.720 you very much for Well it's it's true. You're right. 0:09:51.760 --> 0:09:55.520 I get frustrated, like I want us to work on it, 0:09:56.080 --> 0:09:57.880 but it's not like I don't think you're not working 0:09:57.880 --> 0:10:00.240 on other things. Like I know why that's happened. I 0:10:00.360 --> 0:10:02.800 know you're busy, but I also think you're not. You've 0:10:02.840 --> 0:10:06.800 never told me that. I mean, it's really interesting to 0:10:06.880 --> 0:10:11.480 hear Becca say while she understands, and while she understands 0:10:11.480 --> 0:10:12.800 in the abstract that I have other work to do, 0:10:12.840 --> 0:10:16.480 I've never actually said this day or this week is 0:10:16.480 --> 0:10:20.960 dedicated for me this particular other project which would be 0:10:21.040 --> 0:10:23.560 very easy to do, and I haven't done it, and 0:10:23.559 --> 0:10:25.560 I think my guilt gets in the way. How do 0:10:25.679 --> 0:10:28.199 you communicate like over the course of like, okay, we're 0:10:28.200 --> 0:10:32.240 working on this podcast, how does that information gets get 0:10:32.240 --> 0:10:34.840 transmitted between the two of you? For I know it's 0:10:34.880 --> 0:10:36.800 a bit of a ham fisted question, but like like 0:10:36.840 --> 0:10:38.600 how are we doing it now? Yeah? How are you 0:10:38.640 --> 0:10:42.120 communicating what what like the workload for a week? I 0:10:42.120 --> 0:10:46.640 mean in our chat? Okay, sorry I'm cutting you off, 0:10:46.920 --> 0:10:50.400 but I sort of set you up for that when 0:10:50.400 --> 0:10:56.040 you're communicating emotional information like oh, this is not going away. 0:10:56.080 --> 0:10:59.280 I thought it would if you can do it in person. 0:11:00.440 --> 0:11:04.160 If if you're going to need to push a deadline 0:11:05.200 --> 0:11:08.520 or if you're trying to push back, do it in person. 0:11:09.440 --> 0:11:13.239 You're entitled to be upset if a deadline isn't respected. 0:11:13.679 --> 0:11:15.839 But I do think that if you communicate like your 0:11:15.840 --> 0:11:20.600 disappointment visually, what does that do does a couple of things. 0:11:20.840 --> 0:11:23.720 It Actually there's a real consequence for you not having 0:11:23.800 --> 0:11:27.120 kept up the agreement is the emotional consequence of seeing 0:11:27.120 --> 0:11:30.880 your partner be disappointed. So it makes you less likely 0:11:30.960 --> 0:11:32.400 to do it in the future because you're like, oh, 0:11:32.440 --> 0:11:33.920 I don't want to I don't want to do that. 0:11:34.520 --> 0:11:38.760 And you actually can soften some of the disappointment through 0:11:39.440 --> 0:11:42.960 communicating face to face, but you can do it in 0:11:42.960 --> 0:11:46.240 a way that's empathic as opposed to online. Everything gets lost, 0:11:46.559 --> 0:11:49.960 and I do find that a lot of fights between 0:11:50.000 --> 0:11:53.479 partners or disagreements happen because of the lack of context 0:11:53.800 --> 0:11:56.760 on those channels. I get meeting face to face completely, 0:11:56.800 --> 0:12:00.200 but I don't necessarily need to understand Beca's disappointment because 0:12:00.240 --> 0:12:05.520 I feel like I anticipate because disappointment at all times understood. 0:12:05.559 --> 0:12:07.880 But one of the things that I'm trying to actually 0:12:08.160 --> 0:12:12.040 help with is increase the reliability of the signal. So 0:12:12.400 --> 0:12:15.840 because you anticipate things, Becka might be like, you know, 0:12:15.920 --> 0:12:17.920 having a week where she's just like hanging out drinking 0:12:17.920 --> 0:12:22.000 Margarita's at her desk, which happens all the time, I understand, 0:12:24.000 --> 0:12:27.600 Or she may be anticipating a vacation, or or she 0:12:27.679 --> 0:12:31.240 may be under some other deadline. And I think that 0:12:31.320 --> 0:12:36.640 you imagine more disappointment than is actual. Um, okay, so 0:12:36.640 --> 0:12:40.720 I have a question for you, Um, what are one 0:12:40.760 --> 0:12:44.480 of her couple of Francesca's buttons, things that like she 0:12:44.679 --> 0:12:48.239 just does not like that do not work for Francesca. 0:12:48.880 --> 0:12:50.760 Oh my goodness, I have to think about that. Do 0:12:50.800 --> 0:12:52.800 you know what your buttons are? I mean, the only 0:12:52.840 --> 0:12:54.360 thing I can really think of when it comes to 0:12:54.400 --> 0:12:58.920 our relationship is when you're just expressing like your frustration 0:12:58.960 --> 0:13:01.559 that time frame is being compressed, or that a deadline 0:13:01.600 --> 0:13:02.840 is going to be master that we're not going to 0:13:02.880 --> 0:13:05.959 get down what we expected to get done. Um, it'll 0:13:05.960 --> 0:13:10.720 come out as like okay, but guys, were really you 0:13:10.760 --> 0:13:12.720 know now we're really pushing it, are now really behind 0:13:12.760 --> 0:13:15.840 on time, and I feel like UM talked down to So. 0:13:15.880 --> 0:13:20.680 I was thinking about how these things get communicated, and 0:13:20.679 --> 0:13:25.640 I'm wondering if you switch the language to UM, so 0:13:26.160 --> 0:13:27.760 I understand that we need to push the deadline. It 0:13:28.040 --> 0:13:31.480 just it makes me very nervous. And it's sort of 0:13:31.480 --> 0:13:34.520 a soft emotion that you're holding that you're expressing, as 0:13:34.520 --> 0:13:37.880 opposed to not even that you express a heart emotion, 0:13:37.920 --> 0:13:41.440 but you're reading a heart emotion, UM. And so being 0:13:41.480 --> 0:13:44.520 conscious of the fact that Francesca actually tends to read 0:13:44.600 --> 0:13:49.960 hard emotions because UM, of some of the check try guilt, 0:13:50.080 --> 0:13:52.120 like some of the guilt that you you expressed that 0:13:52.200 --> 0:13:54.000 if you if you own it and you say it 0:13:54.040 --> 0:13:56.800 just makes me a little bit nervous, it may have 0:13:56.840 --> 0:13:59.679 a better effect as opposed to feeling like like feeling 0:13:59.720 --> 0:14:03.439 like Becca's becas pissed at me. Yeah, that seems right. 0:14:03.640 --> 0:14:06.960 I am conscious that I can sometimes be harsh and 0:14:07.000 --> 0:14:09.120 people are like, you're direct, like if they say that 0:14:09.160 --> 0:14:10.920 in a nice way, But I also know that means 0:14:11.280 --> 0:14:15.559 I know what that means. Would it help if I 0:14:15.559 --> 0:14:18.120 responded with the way I was feeling about it? If 0:14:18.160 --> 0:14:21.360 I was like, I'm also nervous about this. I just 0:14:21.400 --> 0:14:23.640 feel like it's assumed or it's understood or should be 0:14:23.720 --> 0:14:27.040 understood that I'm also worried about all these deadlines and 0:14:27.080 --> 0:14:29.280 worried about getting things done on time. Would it help 0:14:29.320 --> 0:14:31.640 if I communicated that better in the moment where but 0:14:31.800 --> 0:14:35.000 I'm like, guys, I'm really worried about this, but I 0:14:35.040 --> 0:14:38.160 can't see any other way then for us to push 0:14:38.160 --> 0:14:40.480 this two days. Yeah. I think sometimes it comes off 0:14:40.520 --> 0:14:42.840 as like you're more laws I fair about it, and 0:14:42.880 --> 0:14:44.320 like it'll just get done in the time and it'll 0:14:44.320 --> 0:14:48.000 get done because that's what we have. And it's like, my, uh, 0:14:48.000 --> 0:14:52.360 I don't know. So by doing that, you're you're joining Becca. 0:14:52.680 --> 0:14:55.160 It's like, hey, I'm with you on this. I feel 0:14:55.280 --> 0:14:58.440 I feel nervous about this too. You know, how can 0:14:58.480 --> 0:15:00.840 we solve this? Think that that's going to be a 0:15:00.880 --> 0:15:04.360 far more effective way of you strengthening the relationship as 0:15:04.360 --> 0:15:10.120 opposed to eroding the trust. Cool. Yeah, I think that 0:15:10.200 --> 0:15:12.960 I had. It's my style sometimes where I have a 0:15:13.000 --> 0:15:16.960 tendency to under communicate those feelings. I kind of like 0:15:18.160 --> 0:15:22.600 lockdown and I become defensive because I'm like Becca doesn't 0:15:22.640 --> 0:15:24.600 think I care, and then I reinforce that by not 0:15:24.720 --> 0:15:28.840 expressing that I care. So that's a weird self self 0:15:28.880 --> 0:15:32.880 sabotaging thing that I do. Um, But I I think 0:15:32.920 --> 0:15:35.640 I just need to not be not reading Becca's concern 0:15:35.760 --> 0:15:38.880 as like an indictment of me and actually be open 0:15:38.920 --> 0:15:41.400 about the fact that I'm concerned too. One thing that 0:15:41.480 --> 0:15:46.040 I think, um, we tend to do especially now, but 0:15:46.320 --> 0:15:49.640 is like the idea is that everything is an emergency. 0:15:50.000 --> 0:15:52.040 I'm not saying that you shouldn't have a really high 0:15:52.080 --> 0:15:55.480 standard of quality for your work product, but also realized 0:15:55.520 --> 0:15:59.120 like it's really not an emergency. I think I saw 0:15:59.400 --> 0:16:03.080 from that, and that just seems like in our work lives. 0:16:03.160 --> 0:16:06.840 Everything in my work life, like everything is like a 0:16:06.880 --> 0:16:09.880 reflection of who I am, and like everything is the 0:16:09.880 --> 0:16:14.600 most important thing. So I think, yeah, it feels higher stakes, 0:16:14.640 --> 0:16:17.680 and maybe we need I need to dial down the 0:16:17.720 --> 0:16:21.160 stakes a little bit. Like it's a fun, frankly very 0:16:21.160 --> 0:16:26.320 silly show about productivity and it might not be perfect. 0:16:26.760 --> 0:16:30.120 You know, there's nothing in nature is perfect. It doesn't exist, right, 0:16:30.200 --> 0:16:33.120 and like taking that burden off of yourself, but also 0:16:33.840 --> 0:16:37.960 the imperfection is the show, you know, is the whole thing, 0:16:38.200 --> 0:16:40.360 and it's like for me anyway, it's the things that 0:16:40.400 --> 0:16:43.400 are imperfect that are interesting, and like it's the moments 0:16:43.520 --> 0:16:46.400 where things don't go right that you get to really 0:16:46.520 --> 0:16:47.680 I mean, you know it sounds a little tripe, but 0:16:47.720 --> 0:16:51.040 you do get to learn about yourself and it's it's 0:16:51.120 --> 0:16:55.080 kind of fun. That's you know, that's basically it. I 0:16:55.120 --> 0:16:58.000 mean usually like you kind of have the takeaways, um, 0:16:58.080 --> 0:17:00.440 and so I would have you guys sort of work 0:17:00.480 --> 0:17:03.160 on those things together and see how it's going, if 0:17:03.200 --> 0:17:06.160 it's if it's improving, it's not improving, um, and then 0:17:06.600 --> 0:17:09.120 you know that would be the next step. Yeah. Well, 0:17:09.280 --> 0:17:11.440 we happened to be in the midway point of this 0:17:12.320 --> 0:17:16.400 season for this show that we're doing, so there are 0:17:16.480 --> 0:17:20.520 many of these we can apply these experiences to come 0:17:22.359 --> 0:17:40.720 thank you, thank you. This is so good. Yeah. How 0:17:40.760 --> 0:17:43.800 did you feel after that session with Ben? I was 0:17:43.840 --> 0:17:46.360 exhausted and I felt like I needed to go home 0:17:46.400 --> 0:17:48.439 and take a nap. Yeah. It was the first thing 0:17:48.480 --> 0:17:50.240 we did in the morning, and I couldn't believe I 0:17:50.280 --> 0:17:51.960 had a whole day ahead of me where I had 0:17:52.000 --> 0:17:53.919 to do more. I just had to go back to 0:17:53.960 --> 0:17:56.720 our desks and act like it was a normal work day, 0:17:57.320 --> 0:17:59.280 but I felt good about it. We we said things 0:17:59.280 --> 0:18:01.480 that needed to be said, we didn't hurt each other's 0:18:01.480 --> 0:18:05.640 feelings too much, and we realized we were much more 0:18:05.640 --> 0:18:08.120 aligned on a lot of things than we thought we were. Yeah, 0:18:08.160 --> 0:18:10.240 you didn't call me I mean b In fact, some 0:18:10.280 --> 0:18:12.119 of the things that I thought you didn't like about me, 0:18:12.160 --> 0:18:15.520 you actually like about me. So yeah, I thought it 0:18:15.560 --> 0:18:18.959 was productive and I took away three specific tips that 0:18:19.040 --> 0:18:22.000 I think we could use going forward in our relationship. 0:18:22.600 --> 0:18:25.400 So the first one I would say is that we 0:18:25.520 --> 0:18:30.119 could communicate more face to face. Ben was pretty adamant 0:18:30.119 --> 0:18:33.920 about that. The second one is try to remind ourselves 0:18:33.960 --> 0:18:37.360 that not everything is an emergency all the time. And 0:18:37.440 --> 0:18:40.800 the third one is that we can talk about our 0:18:40.840 --> 0:18:44.800 emotions more when we're communicating instead of telling the other 0:18:44.880 --> 0:18:48.000 person what we think they need to do. Yeah, so 0:18:48.040 --> 0:18:50.120 the next step was to see if any of these 0:18:50.119 --> 0:19:13.600 tips actually work. We'll see how that went after the break. 0:19:20.080 --> 0:19:21.879 So now it's a few days after we've met with 0:19:21.960 --> 0:19:24.280 Ben and he's given us some tips, But honestly, we 0:19:24.280 --> 0:19:27.399 weren't thinking about them that much because we were busy 0:19:27.440 --> 0:19:30.479 trying to wrap up an episode of this show, and 0:19:30.520 --> 0:19:35.879 then something happened. Becca. You requested a last minute change 0:19:35.920 --> 0:19:38.960 to an episode that was about to be published, and 0:19:39.160 --> 0:19:44.399 you did it over chat I know, and you had 0:19:44.440 --> 0:19:46.680 left for the day and you didn't get to sign 0:19:46.720 --> 0:19:50.320 off on the change, which is what needed to happen, 0:19:51.000 --> 0:19:54.400 but it ended up going through anyway, and you were 0:19:55.080 --> 0:19:58.919 understandably not happy about it. Yeah, so I sent you 0:19:59.000 --> 0:20:03.040 kind of a terse message over chat, basically saying it's 0:20:03.080 --> 0:20:04.800 too late to do anything about this now, but I 0:20:04.840 --> 0:20:07.639 don't like the way we handled this. And then of 0:20:07.680 --> 0:20:10.880 course it dawned on me this was the perfect opportunity 0:20:11.000 --> 0:20:14.760 to test out Ben's advice to handle these things in 0:20:14.840 --> 0:20:19.520 person and not as we were doing over chat. So 0:20:19.560 --> 0:20:21.280 the next morning we found a spot to sit in 0:20:21.320 --> 0:20:26.440 the newsroom to talk over our issues. So last night 0:20:27.320 --> 0:20:31.639 I was annoyed about something that happened over chat after 0:20:31.680 --> 0:20:34.040 I left the office. First, I'm sorry that had happened 0:20:34.040 --> 0:20:37.119 that way, Like, I agree that we should not be 0:20:37.240 --> 0:20:39.880 doing last minute and it's let the person who owns 0:20:39.920 --> 0:20:41.720 the episode, which you did, does not get to sign 0:20:41.760 --> 0:20:43.919 off on. And I kind of, in back my mind 0:20:44.000 --> 0:20:46.320 knew that was happening, but we were both less like 0:20:46.400 --> 0:20:48.800 chaosma or you were. I was running to an appointment 0:20:49.240 --> 0:20:52.000 and it was five am. I think maybe you felt 0:20:52.160 --> 0:20:56.040 more strongly about it than I gave you credit for, 0:20:56.200 --> 0:20:58.920 because you said I want this edit. I had taken 0:20:58.960 --> 0:21:02.080 a bunch of your other edit it's on a previous draft, 0:21:02.200 --> 0:21:04.600 and then I had said this one thing that you 0:21:04.640 --> 0:21:06.120 said I don't really agree with. I think we should 0:21:06.200 --> 0:21:08.399 keep it in. Yeah, And then you heard it in 0:21:08.440 --> 0:21:11.280 the final draft of the show that was right about 0:21:11.280 --> 0:21:13.000 to be published, and you were like, I still don't 0:21:13.040 --> 0:21:14.600 like this, And that was the thing I didn't have 0:21:14.600 --> 0:21:16.840 a chance to respond to. It wasn't just an edit 0:21:16.880 --> 0:21:20.000 I didn't like. It was something where I like the 0:21:20.040 --> 0:21:22.080 way I've not sounded that I was saying something I 0:21:22.119 --> 0:21:23.760 don't want to be on the record saying, and don't 0:21:23.880 --> 0:21:27.040 be in and I think that I don't know how 0:21:27.040 --> 0:21:29.280 to like quotify this. I'm not sure if we can. 0:21:29.440 --> 0:21:33.920 But it's if you ever were like, I don't want 0:21:33.960 --> 0:21:36.520 to say this on tape, I feel like there should 0:21:36.520 --> 0:21:40.159 be some sort of clause clause, and like making a 0:21:40.200 --> 0:21:42.560 show where it's like if you ever were like I 0:21:42.680 --> 0:21:45.640 hate people who juggle, and then you were like, great, 0:21:45.680 --> 0:21:47.919 I don't believe that, but I think I could have 0:21:47.960 --> 0:21:50.120 explained that to you in person and also be more 0:21:50.119 --> 0:21:54.560 clear about it. I understood that you felt like you 0:21:55.240 --> 0:21:57.080 you weren't represented well and this thing that you said, 0:21:57.119 --> 0:22:02.080 and I felt like you were overreacting, and so I 0:22:02.080 --> 0:22:04.280 think probably I didn't understand the extent to which I 0:22:04.359 --> 0:22:06.679 bothered you. And then I also kind of was like, 0:22:07.400 --> 0:22:10.159 I think she's overthinking this. Like I think to me 0:22:10.840 --> 0:22:13.439 that moment when I listened to it sounded perfectly incu 0:22:13.680 --> 0:22:17.080 like a perfectly omacuous exchange. And I think that probably 0:22:17.080 --> 0:22:19.199 what needed to happen was you needed to communicate to me, 0:22:21.160 --> 0:22:24.720 I don't like this. You're not getting why I don't 0:22:24.760 --> 0:22:28.639 like this, But this isn't about This is about, yeah, 0:22:29.000 --> 0:22:31.280 something about me that I don't want on tape. I 0:22:31.320 --> 0:22:33.359 think that the not to get too bad about it, 0:22:33.359 --> 0:22:36.040 But I think the value of talking face to face 0:22:36.200 --> 0:22:38.720 is that the issue I thought we were having was 0:22:38.760 --> 0:22:42.120 that we had is that like I was like, well, 0:22:42.200 --> 0:22:44.119 this this is my episodes where I should be the 0:22:44.119 --> 0:22:49.040 final sign off, which I think, but you basically agree 0:22:49.080 --> 0:22:51.320 with that. Yeah, Well, I'm glad we didn't let it 0:22:51.320 --> 0:22:54.159 continue to unfold over chat because this is a busy 0:22:54.160 --> 0:22:55.840