1 00:00:00,640 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics, 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:07,120 Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of 3 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:10,879 Speaker 1: today's best minds. We were on vacation, but that doesn't 4 00:00:10,960 --> 00:00:12,640 Speaker 1: mean we don't have a great show for you. 5 00:00:12,680 --> 00:00:13,039 Speaker 2: Today. 6 00:00:13,520 --> 00:00:17,520 Speaker 1: Yale University's Beverly Gage stops by to talk to us 7 00:00:17,520 --> 00:00:20,239 Speaker 1: about the history of the FBI and how it reflects 8 00:00:20,280 --> 00:00:23,160 Speaker 1: on Cash Betel's rain. But first, we have the co 9 00:00:23,239 --> 00:00:27,240 Speaker 1: host of the five to four podcast, Peter sham Sheery, 10 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:31,560 Speaker 1: here to preview what to expect next from this demented 11 00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:32,360 Speaker 1: Supreme Court. 12 00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:34,600 Speaker 2: Welcome to next. 13 00:00:34,560 --> 00:00:35,879 Speaker 3: Peter, Thanks for having me. 14 00:00:36,159 --> 00:00:40,080 Speaker 1: You are one of the three stars of my favorite podcast, 15 00:00:40,080 --> 00:00:42,839 Speaker 1: to four, the podcast about how great the Supreme Court is, 16 00:00:43,120 --> 00:00:45,479 Speaker 1: But only one of you will show up on my podcast. 17 00:00:45,520 --> 00:00:48,400 Speaker 1: But that's fine. I know not all of us can 18 00:00:48,479 --> 00:00:51,720 Speaker 1: slum it over here. Not everyone can. But how's it going. 19 00:00:51,800 --> 00:00:53,480 Speaker 1: It seems like those guys are doing great. 20 00:00:53,800 --> 00:00:55,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's been an eventful year. 21 00:00:56,080 --> 00:00:59,200 Speaker 4: I guess I think that anyone who was like particularly 22 00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:03,040 Speaker 4: delusioned about where the court might be Visa v. Trump 23 00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:07,240 Speaker 4: has had that washed away this year. They spent the 24 00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:10,840 Speaker 4: first nine months or so just smacking down every district 25 00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:13,440 Speaker 4: Court who tried to stand in his way. And now 26 00:01:13,600 --> 00:01:17,520 Speaker 4: the term is underway, the twenty twenty five, twenty sixth 27 00:01:17,680 --> 00:01:20,839 Speaker 4: term is underway, and it's sort of more of the same. 28 00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:21,320 Speaker 5: You know. 29 00:01:21,520 --> 00:01:23,840 Speaker 4: I try not to follow oral arguments too much. I 30 00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:27,840 Speaker 4: feel like that's like watching preseason football. It's like just wait, 31 00:01:28,040 --> 00:01:29,960 Speaker 4: you know, just wait to see what they say, but 32 00:01:30,240 --> 00:01:32,360 Speaker 4: it's hard to kind of peel my eyes away. At 33 00:01:32,360 --> 00:01:35,200 Speaker 4: the same time, my general sense is that several of 34 00:01:35,200 --> 00:01:40,200 Speaker 4: the Conservatives are rotting their brains on Twitter or somewhere else, 35 00:01:40,319 --> 00:01:43,640 Speaker 4: Like Brett Kavanaugh just seems much more sort of right wing, 36 00:01:44,080 --> 00:01:47,280 Speaker 4: like red pilled than he used to be. Gorsich sort 37 00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:50,400 Speaker 4: of the same way, all hopes of moderation out the window. 38 00:01:50,720 --> 00:01:51,640 Speaker 2: Yes, so you. 39 00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:55,360 Speaker 1: Think there's like a secret Brett Cavanaugh Twitter account, Like 40 00:01:55,480 --> 00:01:56,720 Speaker 1: is he neo taser? 41 00:01:57,040 --> 00:01:57,800 Speaker 3: That's my guess. 42 00:01:57,840 --> 00:02:02,000 Speaker 4: Either that or just like a really poisoned group chat somewhere, 43 00:02:02,400 --> 00:02:04,480 Speaker 4: you know, some he's like in a in a group 44 00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:07,200 Speaker 4: chat with a few other lawyers who at least one 45 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:10,359 Speaker 4: of which is getting their information from Twitter, and it's 46 00:02:10,400 --> 00:02:12,760 Speaker 4: just getting fed into his brain some of the things 47 00:02:12,800 --> 00:02:15,320 Speaker 4: he says. Now, it's you know, I think there used 48 00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:17,160 Speaker 4: to be a hope a couple of years ago that 49 00:02:17,240 --> 00:02:20,240 Speaker 4: he would either drift left or at least not drift 50 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:23,359 Speaker 4: that far right, And it seems like there's no hope 51 00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:24,280 Speaker 4: on that front anymore. 52 00:02:24,440 --> 00:02:26,359 Speaker 2: We're talking about keg stand here. 53 00:02:26,320 --> 00:02:29,400 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I think, I mean, you know, it's really 54 00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:32,720 Speaker 4: just him and Cony Barrett in terms of who you 55 00:02:32,760 --> 00:02:35,040 Speaker 4: could have some kind of hope for. I think Roberts 56 00:02:35,080 --> 00:02:36,960 Speaker 4: we sort of know who he is, right, and I 57 00:02:36,960 --> 00:02:39,640 Speaker 4: think both of them have sort of showed themselves to 58 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:43,600 Speaker 4: be loyal to the conservative political movement first and foremost. 59 00:02:43,639 --> 00:02:47,080 Speaker 4: This year, you know, they very much wanted to grease 60 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:48,800 Speaker 4: the wheels for Trump. You can see it in the 61 00:02:48,800 --> 00:02:51,320 Speaker 4: shadow docket rulings. You can see it in the fact 62 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:54,240 Speaker 4: that they you know, halted it. Basically, what has continued 63 00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:56,959 Speaker 4: to happen is that district courts say, hey, this looks 64 00:02:57,080 --> 00:03:01,160 Speaker 4: sort of presumptively illegal, and then the Supreme Court intervenes 65 00:03:01,200 --> 00:03:04,320 Speaker 4: and says, no, we're gonna let it stay in effect 66 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:08,240 Speaker 4: until it gets litigated. So you know, that happened with 67 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:11,320 Speaker 4: for example, birthright citizenship, sort of the big one that 68 00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:14,720 Speaker 4: everyone thought there's no way, right, there's no way that 69 00:03:14,760 --> 00:03:17,040 Speaker 4: they allow this, and it keeps happening. We've seen it 70 00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:20,240 Speaker 4: with what is, by comparison, a lot more minor, like 71 00:03:20,680 --> 00:03:24,080 Speaker 4: the heads of various commissions. The FTC head is a 72 00:03:24,080 --> 00:03:28,280 Speaker 4: big litigation. Can Trump summarily fire these folks? It just 73 00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:33,840 Speaker 4: seems like the Court's primary belief is that federal district 74 00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:36,520 Speaker 4: courts are out of control. They have too much power 75 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:40,080 Speaker 4: and are sort of too capable of stopping Donald Trump. 76 00:03:40,240 --> 00:03:43,560 Speaker 4: And the Supreme Court's role is to step in and say, no, 77 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:46,360 Speaker 4: federal district courts, you can't do this. Let Trump do 78 00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:49,240 Speaker 4: what he wants, at least for now. Let Trump be Trump. 79 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:54,160 Speaker 1: It does seem as if the Supreme Court has a 80 00:03:54,280 --> 00:03:58,560 Speaker 1: complete and utter disdain for any kinds of rules or 81 00:03:58,600 --> 00:03:59,640 Speaker 1: boundaries for him. 82 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:00,440 Speaker 3: Yeah. 83 00:04:00,720 --> 00:04:05,760 Speaker 4: I think it's a combination of this sort of half 84 00:04:05,760 --> 00:04:10,120 Speaker 4: hearted belief in a powerful executive. I mean, this belief, 85 00:04:10,160 --> 00:04:12,840 Speaker 4: of course goes away whenever a Democrat's in office, but 86 00:04:13,200 --> 00:04:16,359 Speaker 4: there is a sort of conservative ideological belief in a 87 00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:20,239 Speaker 4: powerful executive, and it's long standing, and they really embrace 88 00:04:20,279 --> 00:04:22,840 Speaker 4: it when one of theirs is in office, and no 89 00:04:23,160 --> 00:04:25,920 Speaker 4: single president has embraced it more than Trump. I also 90 00:04:25,960 --> 00:04:28,119 Speaker 4: think that it reflects their own belief in their own 91 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:32,240 Speaker 4: power and their own supremacy in the judicial branch. I mean, 92 00:04:32,279 --> 00:04:36,560 Speaker 4: they have a ton of disdain for these district court judges, 93 00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:39,920 Speaker 4: many of whom are like you know, Reagan and Bush 94 00:04:39,960 --> 00:04:44,440 Speaker 4: want appointees who are generally conservative and in their minds 95 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:48,119 Speaker 4: are operating in good faith to put the Supreme Court's 96 00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:51,679 Speaker 4: president into effect. Right, the Supreme Court has consistently snarked 97 00:04:51,680 --> 00:04:54,560 Speaker 4: at those judges. Gores Such especially has been you know, 98 00:04:54,760 --> 00:04:58,440 Speaker 4: very snarky in his tone when he's staying those judges' orders. 99 00:04:58,640 --> 00:05:00,960 Speaker 1: It's always a sort of like which one of those 100 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:04,800 Speaker 1: three sucks the most? Yeah, and just as Amy says 101 00:05:04,839 --> 00:05:08,240 Speaker 1: some stuff that's not as insane during oral arguments, So 102 00:05:08,279 --> 00:05:12,360 Speaker 1: people sometimes think that she's the least naughty, but Gorsich 103 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:13,840 Speaker 1: has become the worst. 104 00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:18,360 Speaker 3: He's more consistently bad. And it's a very dangerous. 105 00:05:17,839 --> 00:05:22,400 Speaker 4: Moment for someone like him because one of his foundational beliefs, 106 00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:24,520 Speaker 4: one of the beliefs he really can't shake from him, 107 00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:28,560 Speaker 4: is his idea that the administrative state is out of control. 108 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:29,000 Speaker 3: Right. 109 00:05:29,080 --> 00:05:31,160 Speaker 4: So I don't know that he is the worst as 110 00:05:31,279 --> 00:05:34,400 Speaker 4: much as Trump's action sort of cater to his worst instincts. 111 00:05:34,680 --> 00:05:37,120 Speaker 2: M that's really interesting. Say more about that. 112 00:05:37,360 --> 00:05:39,760 Speaker 4: I think that Trump's instinct is that he has all 113 00:05:39,760 --> 00:05:41,760 Speaker 4: the power, or should have all the power. In order 114 00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:43,679 Speaker 4: for that to be the case, you need to believe 115 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:45,640 Speaker 4: that Congress has less power. You need to believe that 116 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:48,120 Speaker 4: the administrative state should have less power. And those are 117 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:50,560 Speaker 4: things that Gorcich really sincerely believes. I don't think that 118 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:53,159 Speaker 4: he's always the worst justice. I mean, we've seen Cony 119 00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:56,120 Speaker 4: Barrett to the right of other justices on trans issues, 120 00:05:56,120 --> 00:05:58,400 Speaker 4: for example. So it's just sort of issue by issue, 121 00:05:58,400 --> 00:06:01,200 Speaker 4: and I think we're seeing, of course, such a merge 122 00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:05,159 Speaker 4: as a particularly shitty justice for this moment because the 123 00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:09,080 Speaker 4: moment is so centered around all of his quirks, his 124 00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:12,039 Speaker 4: like right wing quirks via the you know VSVI the 125 00:06:12,040 --> 00:06:13,320 Speaker 4: administrative state or whatever. 126 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:19,040 Speaker 1: That's very interesting. It's funny because he's a NEPO baby. 127 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:21,480 Speaker 3: Right, Yeah. His mother was the head of the EPA 128 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:22,240 Speaker 3: under Reagan. 129 00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:26,320 Speaker 4: This was, you know, a time when conservatives were really 130 00:06:26,600 --> 00:06:29,680 Speaker 4: interested in dismantling the administrative state. And if you were 131 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:32,800 Speaker 4: in charge of an agency under Reagan, part of your 132 00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:37,440 Speaker 4: responsibility was just removing regulations, right, removing the agency itself 133 00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:40,120 Speaker 4: as an impediment to private interests. So this is someone 134 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:42,479 Speaker 4: who was raised with, you know, a literal role model 135 00:06:42,480 --> 00:06:46,359 Speaker 4: of someone who wanted to roll back the administrative state, 136 00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:49,960 Speaker 4: and I think that makes it sort of goal number 137 00:06:49,960 --> 00:06:52,880 Speaker 4: one for him. So when you have all these cases about, like, well, 138 00:06:52,960 --> 00:06:56,400 Speaker 4: ken Trump really summarily fire the head of the FTC 139 00:06:56,760 --> 00:07:00,840 Speaker 4: or board member of the NLRB. To Gorsh, this is 140 00:07:00,880 --> 00:07:01,559 Speaker 4: open and shut. 141 00:07:01,720 --> 00:07:03,919 Speaker 2: Yeah, So what's the schedule look like? 142 00:07:04,160 --> 00:07:06,680 Speaker 1: What are the things that we should have processed in 143 00:07:06,760 --> 00:07:09,120 Speaker 1: our subconscious for anxiety dreams? 144 00:07:10,520 --> 00:07:10,680 Speaker 5: You know? 145 00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:14,400 Speaker 4: You can start with the Tariff's case, which people are 146 00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:15,760 Speaker 4: relatively optimistic about. 147 00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:20,920 Speaker 1: I mean they're optimistic because it's their other benefactor and. 148 00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:23,040 Speaker 3: Not correct, right, I mean that's right. 149 00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:25,880 Speaker 4: Yeah, it does seem like the justices have one exception 150 00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:29,160 Speaker 4: to their rule of always helped Trump, and that's unless 151 00:07:29,440 --> 00:07:31,560 Speaker 4: very rich people disagree. 152 00:07:31,760 --> 00:07:31,920 Speaker 5: Right. 153 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:35,520 Speaker 1: So you've got unless the Koch brothers bring a case, right. 154 00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:38,880 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, You've got the tariffs case. You have the 155 00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:41,800 Speaker 4: question of whether Trump can fired jer own pal, which 156 00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:45,840 Speaker 4: John Roberts expressed a lot of skepticism about earlier this year, 157 00:07:45,880 --> 00:07:47,680 Speaker 4: and they just sort of said, well, look, maybe he 158 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:50,160 Speaker 4: can fire the head of every other agency, but the 159 00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:53,560 Speaker 4: FED is special. It's quasi private, is how they framed it, 160 00:07:53,600 --> 00:07:55,560 Speaker 4: and maybe that makes it different and he can't do it. 161 00:07:55,720 --> 00:07:58,160 Speaker 4: These are the kinds of cases where it does seem 162 00:07:58,200 --> 00:08:00,960 Speaker 4: like there's a ray of hope. In terms of the 163 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:03,600 Speaker 4: other cases, it's combination of things. You have a ton 164 00:08:03,640 --> 00:08:07,400 Speaker 4: of activity on the shadow docket still, these emergency applications 165 00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:09,800 Speaker 4: that are harder to predict in terms of the docket 166 00:08:09,840 --> 00:08:13,000 Speaker 4: for the term right now, a bunch of cases that 167 00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:19,080 Speaker 4: are really designed to entrench Republican power. So you have 168 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:23,080 Speaker 4: the question of the Voting Rights Act in Louisiana v. 169 00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:25,240 Speaker 3: Cala. I think it's pronounced that. 170 00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:28,600 Speaker 1: Seems like such an insane case. So that would be 171 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:31,440 Speaker 1: like section two of the Voting Rights Act. It would 172 00:08:31,720 --> 00:08:34,559 Speaker 1: end minority majority districts. 173 00:08:34,960 --> 00:08:35,200 Speaker 2: Right. 174 00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:37,600 Speaker 4: So I think that the way to view it is 175 00:08:37,640 --> 00:08:41,880 Speaker 4: that this is part of a conservative project that says 176 00:08:42,160 --> 00:08:45,840 Speaker 4: that when you try to remedy a type of racial wrong, 177 00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:50,080 Speaker 4: in this case, racial jerrymandering, you can't consider race because 178 00:08:50,120 --> 00:08:52,400 Speaker 4: that runs a foul of the Constitution. 179 00:08:52,679 --> 00:08:57,240 Speaker 1: It's anti white racism, right, that DEI is racist against 180 00:08:57,240 --> 00:08:57,800 Speaker 1: white people. 181 00:08:57,920 --> 00:08:59,599 Speaker 2: Right, That's what the thinking here is. 182 00:08:59,760 --> 00:09:02,840 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, it's the same philosophy as the affirmative 183 00:09:02,840 --> 00:09:06,040 Speaker 4: action cases, even if the legal issues aren't identical. The 184 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:09,880 Speaker 4: idea is that if you try to factor in race 185 00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:15,000 Speaker 4: when you're fixing these problems, then you are essentially violating 186 00:09:15,280 --> 00:09:17,880 Speaker 4: equal protection. You can't be thinking about it on those terms. 187 00:09:17,960 --> 00:09:21,720 Speaker 4: So the Voting Rights Act right now allows for private 188 00:09:21,920 --> 00:09:25,640 Speaker 4: interest to sue and say, hey, I think there was 189 00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:29,160 Speaker 4: racial gerrymandering here. I think race was considered in this gerrymander. 190 00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:33,680 Speaker 4: And then the remedy is the redrawing of the district, right, 191 00:09:33,840 --> 00:09:36,800 Speaker 4: So there's a question of how you do that without 192 00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:40,000 Speaker 4: considering race. How do you sort of redraw a district 193 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:43,319 Speaker 4: without considering race? And then what goes into the initial 194 00:09:43,440 --> 00:09:47,600 Speaker 4: question of whether this was racist? To begin with, Alido 195 00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:49,920 Speaker 4: and a lot of other conservatives have said, well, look, 196 00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:53,600 Speaker 4: this isn't racist. This is just partisan jerrymandering, right, And yeah, 197 00:09:53,920 --> 00:09:58,480 Speaker 4: like it falls disproportionately along racial lines, but that's essentially 198 00:09:58,520 --> 00:10:03,199 Speaker 4: a coincidence. That's because of these racial makeup of the parties. 199 00:10:03,679 --> 00:10:07,120 Speaker 4: And this brings us back to like Ruto v. Common Cause, 200 00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:10,000 Speaker 4: a case from a few years back that said partisan 201 00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:13,480 Speaker 4: jerry mandering is fine there's no problem with it. So 202 00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:16,960 Speaker 4: they created this big carve out that basically says any 203 00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:19,680 Speaker 4: type of partisan jerry mandering is fine. And now it 204 00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:23,000 Speaker 4: seems possible that they're going to say, look, this isn't 205 00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:26,319 Speaker 4: racial jerrymandering, this is just partisan jerrymandering. Right, and now 206 00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:29,679 Speaker 4: everyone who does this type of gerrymandering has an excuse, right, 207 00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:31,880 Speaker 4: they have this fallback where they're sort of like, well, look, 208 00:10:31,880 --> 00:10:34,320 Speaker 4: we're not being racist, that's just a coincidence. We're being 209 00:10:34,360 --> 00:10:38,840 Speaker 4: anti Democrat. But that's you know, that's fine. What's the 210 00:10:38,880 --> 00:10:41,440 Speaker 4: goal here? I think it's a combination of things. I mean, 211 00:10:41,480 --> 00:10:45,160 Speaker 4: we're seeing the jerrymandering wars across the country. Right The 212 00:10:45,280 --> 00:10:49,160 Speaker 4: Supreme Court stepped in in the Texas case to reinstate 213 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:52,240 Speaker 4: the map, essentially to keep the Republicans competitive. I think 214 00:10:52,280 --> 00:10:56,080 Speaker 4: we live in a world right now where Republicans are 215 00:10:56,080 --> 00:10:58,920 Speaker 4: concerned about their ability to hold onto power long term, 216 00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:02,439 Speaker 4: and how do you do that at aggressive gerrymandering money 217 00:11:02,480 --> 00:11:05,960 Speaker 4: in politics. There's another case that essentially seeks to do 218 00:11:06,080 --> 00:11:11,640 Speaker 4: away with the barriers between candidates and parties. So right now, 219 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:14,680 Speaker 4: there are a lot of limitations on what amount of 220 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:19,960 Speaker 4: coordination can occur between a campaign and a party, right, 221 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:22,400 Speaker 4: and a lot of this has already broken down because 222 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:24,800 Speaker 4: of packs, which sort of exist outside of this system. 223 00:11:24,880 --> 00:11:27,960 Speaker 4: But a set of Republican interests have challenged these laws 224 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:32,920 Speaker 4: that limit coordination between parties and campaigns themselves. So right now, 225 00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:36,120 Speaker 4: if you give money to the Republican Party, they can't 226 00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:41,000 Speaker 4: just dole it out to campaigns strategically without abiding by 227 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:43,600 Speaker 4: a whole bunch of rules. But a lot of very 228 00:11:43,679 --> 00:11:47,160 Speaker 4: rich people would like to eliminate those rules, and that's 229 00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:50,040 Speaker 4: basically what's happening there. Basically, it would create an end 230 00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:53,400 Speaker 4: to run around a lot of like individual contribution limits 231 00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:55,960 Speaker 4: and things like that, so, you know, creating a world 232 00:11:55,960 --> 00:11:59,920 Speaker 4: where parties themselves, institutional parties have more power. 233 00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:02,800 Speaker 2: I mean, do you really need to do that already 234 00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:04,880 Speaker 2: everything's so fucked. 235 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:07,920 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I think you can argue that this 236 00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:11,360 Speaker 4: is just a way to simplify the weird series of 237 00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:14,200 Speaker 4: loopholes that Citizens United created. So, like, you know, you 238 00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:16,640 Speaker 4: don't need to give your money to a pack anymore, 239 00:12:16,840 --> 00:12:19,360 Speaker 4: just hand it off to the Republican Party, right, don't 240 00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:20,079 Speaker 4: worry about it. 241 00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:21,840 Speaker 1: I was told by the Supreme Court that if you 242 00:12:21,880 --> 00:12:27,200 Speaker 1: get money in a cava bag, if your cash comes 243 00:12:27,240 --> 00:12:28,160 Speaker 1: in a cava bag. 244 00:12:28,559 --> 00:12:31,319 Speaker 2: Or didn't we learn last season that bribes are not illegal. 245 00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:35,840 Speaker 4: Bribes are only illegal in a situation where the bag 246 00:12:35,920 --> 00:12:39,800 Speaker 4: is marked with a dollar sign and you expressly say 247 00:12:39,679 --> 00:12:42,480 Speaker 4: maybe even in writing out loud might not be enough, 248 00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:45,720 Speaker 4: that it is a broade, then it is illegal. But 249 00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:48,880 Speaker 4: in just about every other situation bribes are fine. 250 00:12:49,040 --> 00:12:51,000 Speaker 2: Isn't it a tip? I was told it was a tip? 251 00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:53,840 Speaker 4: It's democracy and action, Molly. 252 00:12:54,240 --> 00:12:56,840 Speaker 1: If you were the Supreme Court and you are as 253 00:12:56,960 --> 00:13:00,600 Speaker 1: unpopular as you are, which they are, really give a 254 00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:02,280 Speaker 1: fuck because they have a lifetime job. 255 00:13:02,679 --> 00:13:03,520 Speaker 2: Well they sort of do. 256 00:13:03,679 --> 00:13:06,200 Speaker 1: Some of them do complain about it, but you're some 257 00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:09,520 Speaker 1: popular as you are. Trump is the great and powerful, 258 00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:12,880 Speaker 1: but he is a lame dog. And eventually this experiment 259 00:13:13,040 --> 00:13:15,839 Speaker 1: is going to end. And by that I mean MAGA 260 00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:19,120 Speaker 1: and not American democracy though fifty to fifty on that. 261 00:13:19,679 --> 00:13:22,840 Speaker 4: What's your plan here? I'm not sure what the Republican 262 00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:24,959 Speaker 4: Party's plan is in general? 263 00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:25,240 Speaker 5: Right? 264 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:28,480 Speaker 3: What is their plan for twenty twenty nine? 265 00:13:28,559 --> 00:13:28,760 Speaker 5: Right? 266 00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:31,880 Speaker 4: What are they carrying forward from MAGA and what are 267 00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:34,200 Speaker 4: they leaving behind? I think it's all quite unclear. You 268 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:38,280 Speaker 4: can look at this as them using an opportunity to 269 00:13:38,440 --> 00:13:40,559 Speaker 4: just check off a bunch of boxes that they've always 270 00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:43,839 Speaker 4: wanted to check off. Right, they've wanted to limit voting rights, 271 00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:47,080 Speaker 4: they get that opportunity here. They've wanted to strike down 272 00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:49,640 Speaker 4: a campaign contribution limits, they get to do that. 273 00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:50,040 Speaker 3: Here. 274 00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:53,600 Speaker 4: They have all sorts of culture war goals that they're 275 00:13:53,640 --> 00:13:56,480 Speaker 4: going to accomplish. Trans rights issues are in front of 276 00:13:56,520 --> 00:14:00,760 Speaker 4: the court, and they get to do whatever horrible, vindictive 277 00:14:00,800 --> 00:14:02,840 Speaker 4: bullshit they feel like doing on that front. 278 00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:06,079 Speaker 3: I think in their minds maybe it doesn't matter. 279 00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:08,840 Speaker 4: Maybe they just get to accomplish the goals that they 280 00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:12,760 Speaker 4: want to accomplish and leave the political side for the future. Right, 281 00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:15,360 Speaker 4: whatever comes to them comes to them. My real guess 282 00:14:15,480 --> 00:14:18,559 Speaker 4: is that they figure, we just had an incredible success 283 00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:21,960 Speaker 4: under Biden. Right, Biden enters office, they strike down a 284 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:26,520 Speaker 4: bunch of his initiatives. Trump enters office, They open the 285 00:14:26,520 --> 00:14:30,040 Speaker 4: gates for him at every opportunity. Maybe that's the playbook forever. 286 00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:30,320 Speaker 5: Right. 287 00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:33,120 Speaker 4: If Democrats recover power, you try to strip it away. 288 00:14:33,160 --> 00:14:35,640 Speaker 4: If Republicans stay in power, you give them more. 289 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:38,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that is a play So you think 290 00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:43,080 Speaker 1: the thinking here is Joe Biden was weak on and 291 00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:46,040 Speaker 1: he was on the Supreme Court among other things, but 292 00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:48,600 Speaker 1: he did not challenge him because he didn't want to, 293 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:50,160 Speaker 1: or he couldn't. 294 00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:51,640 Speaker 2: Figure out how to or whatever. 295 00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:54,960 Speaker 1: And so they're just going to get lucky again, right, 296 00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:57,720 Speaker 1: And it's not like they're going to be fifty justices. 297 00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:02,920 Speaker 4: I mean, the Democrats got nowhere on reform politically, right. 298 00:15:03,080 --> 00:15:05,680 Speaker 4: I don't know where the taally is now, but I 299 00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:08,240 Speaker 4: never saw more than two or three Senators saying that 300 00:15:08,280 --> 00:15:10,840 Speaker 4: they would be willing to expand the court. So my 301 00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:14,200 Speaker 4: guess is that had there been a real movement within 302 00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:18,080 Speaker 4: the Democratic Party to embrace court reform, maybe you see 303 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:21,000 Speaker 4: a restrained court in that case, right, maybe they start 304 00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:23,960 Speaker 4: to get actually nervous. But I think that the Biden 305 00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:27,680 Speaker 4: era proved to them that the Democrats just don't have 306 00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:31,320 Speaker 4: the political energy for this, and whatever sort of talk 307 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:34,200 Speaker 4: about reform you see on the margins, it's never going 308 00:15:34,240 --> 00:15:38,160 Speaker 4: to coalesce in the short or medium term into a 309 00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:41,320 Speaker 4: meaningful piece of legislation that has an actual shot. 310 00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:42,760 Speaker 2: Thank you, Peter. 311 00:15:47,160 --> 00:15:50,480 Speaker 1: We have exciting news over at our YouTube channel. This 312 00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:54,640 Speaker 1: second episode from our Project twenty twenty nine series is 313 00:15:54,680 --> 00:15:58,360 Speaker 1: out now. It's a reimagining where we examined what went 314 00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:01,320 Speaker 1: wrong with Democrats approached upon politics and how we can 315 00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:04,400 Speaker 1: correct it and deliver changes to help people's lives. 316 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:08,600 Speaker 2: The first episode dove into the very sexy topic of 317 00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:12,760 Speaker 2: campaign finance reform, and our second episode deals with an 318 00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:16,440 Speaker 2: even sexier topic, antitrust and regulation. 319 00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:21,680 Speaker 1: We look at how antitrust and regulation can protect American 320 00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:26,880 Speaker 1: citizens and make America thrive in an era of rampant 321 00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:31,920 Speaker 1: corruption and predatory crony capitalism. We talk to the smartest 322 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:37,880 Speaker 1: names in the field like Lena Khan, el Vero Bedoya, Elizabeth. 323 00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:39,280 Speaker 2: Wilkins, and Doha Mechi. 324 00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:43,320 Speaker 1: Republicans were prepared for when they got the levers of power. 325 00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:46,840 Speaker 1: We need democrats to be too. So please head over 326 00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:50,800 Speaker 1: to YouTube and search Molli John Fast Project twenty twenty nine, 327 00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:55,560 Speaker 1: or go to the Fast Politics YouTube channel and find 328 00:16:55,560 --> 00:17:00,920 Speaker 1: it there and help us spread the word. Really. Gauge 329 00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:04,320 Speaker 1: is a professor of history and American Studies at Yale University, 330 00:17:04,359 --> 00:17:07,320 Speaker 1: as well as the author of g Man Jay Edgar 331 00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:10,439 Speaker 1: Hoover and the Making of the American Century and the 332 00:17:10,600 --> 00:17:14,800 Speaker 1: upcoming book This Land Is Your Land. Welcome to Fast 333 00:17:14,840 --> 00:17:16,320 Speaker 1: Politics Beverly Gage. 334 00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:17,359 Speaker 2: That's great to be here. 335 00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:21,240 Speaker 1: I am really delighted to have you, and you are 336 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:25,920 Speaker 1: very fancy and smart academic. Sometimes I get to sneak 337 00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:29,359 Speaker 1: in fancy and smart academics in my podcast. You wrote 338 00:17:29,480 --> 00:17:34,879 Speaker 1: a really the definitive book on Jaeger Hoover. As we 339 00:17:35,119 --> 00:17:39,080 Speaker 1: are into the Trump administration, we're now a little more 340 00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:41,520 Speaker 1: than a year, I was like, we got to get 341 00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:46,080 Speaker 1: her back to talk about the historical parallels between what 342 00:17:46,119 --> 00:17:47,960 Speaker 1: we're seeing now and what we saw then. 343 00:17:48,359 --> 00:17:50,720 Speaker 2: Obviously I have a horse in this race because my 344 00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:54,879 Speaker 2: grandfather was Howard Fast who was blacklisted during this period. 345 00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:57,920 Speaker 2: But I want you first to talk about the historical parallels. 346 00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:01,960 Speaker 5: Yeah. Well, Hoover, I think is an interesting character to 347 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:04,920 Speaker 5: think about in this moment. Most people have heard of him, 348 00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:06,879 Speaker 5: but for those of you who haven't, he was the 349 00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:11,440 Speaker 5: director of the FBI from nineteen twenty four to nineteen 350 00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:15,520 Speaker 5: seventy two, So this incredible swap of time forty eight years. 351 00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:17,800 Speaker 5: I'm pretty sure Cash Pateel is. 352 00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:18,560 Speaker 2: Not going to be there. 353 00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:19,040 Speaker 3: That all. 354 00:18:19,359 --> 00:18:22,280 Speaker 5: We'll see if he makes it over the threshold of 355 00:18:22,359 --> 00:18:26,840 Speaker 5: one year. But in thinking about Hoover's legacy in this particular, moment. 356 00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:31,520 Speaker 5: I think there are some really alarming parallels that a 357 00:18:31,640 --> 00:18:35,640 Speaker 5: lot of the ways that he built the FBI as 358 00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:39,880 Speaker 5: through a political enforcement mechanism for himself, people whose ideas 359 00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:42,919 Speaker 5: he didn't like, people whose politics he didn't like. I 360 00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:47,120 Speaker 5: think we are seeing a comeback of many of those techniques. 361 00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:50,200 Speaker 5: But at the same time, Hoover was just such a 362 00:18:50,320 --> 00:18:56,000 Speaker 5: radically different figure from Cash Patel. Hoover believed in kind 363 00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:59,960 Speaker 5: of nonpartisan government service and in building up the FBI 364 00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:04,000 Speaker 5: as an institution, and that image we all have of 365 00:19:04,080 --> 00:19:06,840 Speaker 5: the old fashioned g man, the guy in the suit 366 00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:09,200 Speaker 5: who was so upright and all that. He really did 367 00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:12,040 Speaker 5: believe in that stuff, and Cash Bettel is just a 368 00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:15,600 Speaker 5: radically different creature in that sense. He is a tool 369 00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:19,760 Speaker 5: of the White House. He is openly partisan in ways 370 00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:22,760 Speaker 5: that Hoover never wanted to be, or could. 371 00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:24,560 Speaker 3: Have been if he wanted to last in office. 372 00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:29,600 Speaker 2: But Hoover was actually openly partisan. He just was dishonest 373 00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:32,880 Speaker 2: about it, right because in so many years in that job. 374 00:19:33,040 --> 00:19:35,080 Speaker 2: Talk us through how he evolved. 375 00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:38,240 Speaker 5: Well, he was very political in the sense that he 376 00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:43,879 Speaker 5: had lots of very deep political relationships with presidents and congressman. 377 00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:46,960 Speaker 5: He did favors for them. He carried their water when 378 00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:49,800 Speaker 5: he thought it was of interest to him. He was 379 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:53,879 Speaker 5: very ideological, so he especially went after the American left, 380 00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:57,760 Speaker 5: and as your grandfather well knew the Communist Party. I 381 00:19:57,760 --> 00:20:01,560 Speaker 5: think the difference is that he was not someone who 382 00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:04,960 Speaker 5: understood himself to be partisan in the sense that he 383 00:20:05,320 --> 00:20:08,440 Speaker 5: was allied with the Republican Party or the Democratic Party. 384 00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:12,840 Speaker 5: He was this sort of non partisan bureaucratic player who 385 00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:16,359 Speaker 5: was a little bit outside of the political scrum in 386 00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:19,159 Speaker 5: that sense. And that's how Cash Patel is so different. 387 00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:22,160 Speaker 5: I mean, Hoover would have said, you know, we are independent. 388 00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:24,640 Speaker 5: We don't do the bidding of the White House, even 389 00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:27,399 Speaker 5: though of course he was negotiating that all the time. 390 00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:30,760 Speaker 1: But he did that with both parties, right he was 391 00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:35,760 Speaker 1: from the New Deal right to Nixon. So part of 392 00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:39,280 Speaker 1: that was a sort of ability to make yourself seem 393 00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:41,720 Speaker 1: one way to one president or another or why. 394 00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:43,879 Speaker 5: Yeah, I think that that was part of it. My 395 00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:47,600 Speaker 5: favorite example of that is I think the two presidents 396 00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:51,520 Speaker 5: with whom he was closest and for whom he did 397 00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:57,199 Speaker 5: the most overtly political favors were Lyndon Johnson and Richard Nixon, 398 00:20:57,720 --> 00:21:01,400 Speaker 5: and we think of them as these radically different people. 399 00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:06,320 Speaker 5: Johnson the great liberal, Nixon the reactionary, as people might 400 00:21:06,359 --> 00:21:10,000 Speaker 5: have described him, at least at the time. But to Hoover, 401 00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:13,240 Speaker 5: he was this sort of behind the scenes political player. 402 00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:18,160 Speaker 5: He had long standings for Washington establishment relationships with both 403 00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:20,760 Speaker 5: of them. He wanted to stay in office, so he 404 00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:23,400 Speaker 5: did lots of favors for them. So he was a 405 00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:28,359 Speaker 5: fantastic political operator and bureaucratic operator, but he was not 406 00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:31,840 Speaker 5: allied with any one figure or any one party in 407 00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:35,840 Speaker 5: the way that cash Ptel is so obviously a partisan 408 00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:37,480 Speaker 5: of Trump in particular. 409 00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:43,160 Speaker 2: How much of the modern FBI is because of Hoover. 410 00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:46,119 Speaker 5: I would say a lot of it. He really is 411 00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:50,040 Speaker 5: the person who created it. The bureau existed before he 412 00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:52,960 Speaker 5: became director in the nineteen twenties, but it was this tiny, 413 00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:56,480 Speaker 5: little backwater. He is the person who really built it, 414 00:21:56,600 --> 00:22:00,120 Speaker 5: and he built it into this strange hybrid which we 415 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:03,080 Speaker 5: have now, which is always really I think complicated for 416 00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:05,520 Speaker 5: the FBI, which is, on the one hand, it is 417 00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:09,160 Speaker 5: a federal law enforcement institution and then on the other 418 00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:12,640 Speaker 5: hand it's a domestic intelligence agency, and those are very 419 00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:15,399 Speaker 5: different things. In lots of places, they are not all 420 00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:19,600 Speaker 5: put together in the same institution or agency. But that 421 00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:23,120 Speaker 5: was very much a product of Hoover's lifetime. And then 422 00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:26,439 Speaker 5: I think the fundamental culture of the Bureau was also 423 00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:28,680 Speaker 5: put in place in that moment, you know. I think 424 00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:32,639 Speaker 5: it's a culture where people do take a certain kind 425 00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:40,639 Speaker 5: of professional, long term government service, nonpartisan, quite seriously. And 426 00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:43,240 Speaker 5: then it also has had for a very long time 427 00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:47,520 Speaker 5: this deeply conservative institutional culture too. In lots of ways. 428 00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:50,359 Speaker 5: One of the really strange things about the politics of 429 00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:54,800 Speaker 5: recent years is that the Bureau it's being accused of 430 00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:58,960 Speaker 5: being this kind of radical Marxist hotbed. And it doesn't 431 00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:02,280 Speaker 5: make any sense either for the Bureau as it exists 432 00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:05,800 Speaker 5: now or certainly in any kind of historical context. It's 433 00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:08,520 Speaker 5: just really wild to see this turn of history. 434 00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:11,120 Speaker 2: Could you talk about ways in which FBI had shaped 435 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:15,560 Speaker 2: America over this last century, sort of how it's gotten 436 00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:17,440 Speaker 2: as here or how it's not well. 437 00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:20,680 Speaker 5: I think one thing the FBI did for a long 438 00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:25,320 Speaker 5: time under Hoover, for better and mostly often for worse, 439 00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:28,760 Speaker 5: was that it conceived of itself as sort of the 440 00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:33,080 Speaker 5: enforcer of what was legitimate within the American political system. 441 00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:37,119 Speaker 5: So Hoover was big on declaiming who was an extremist, 442 00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:39,919 Speaker 5: who was a danger. Often that had to do with 443 00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:44,000 Speaker 5: your political ideology or affiliation. Some of it was aimed 444 00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:45,800 Speaker 5: at the right, a lot of it was aimed at 445 00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:48,399 Speaker 5: the left. And so I do think they played a 446 00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:53,120 Speaker 5: huge role in kind of shaping how the big social 447 00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:56,160 Speaker 5: movements of the twentieth century took shape. I think the 448 00:23:56,200 --> 00:24:01,240 Speaker 5: FBI has also been a symbol of a certain kind 449 00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:06,160 Speaker 5: of federal power. The FBI often has been really popular, right, 450 00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:09,800 Speaker 5: I mean, it's mythologized on TV, and a certain kind 451 00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:13,359 Speaker 5: of professional government power. I think it's been very important 452 00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:16,400 Speaker 5: in shaping how Americans think about that. And then there 453 00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:19,880 Speaker 5: are any number of crises in which the Bureau has 454 00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:27,040 Speaker 5: had to play really important roles, right, often acts of violence, assassination, terrorism, espionage, 455 00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:30,879 Speaker 5: right moments in which you really do want highly competent 456 00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:34,280 Speaker 5: people who know what they're doing to act. And I 457 00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:37,000 Speaker 5: think one of the questions at the moment is, you know, 458 00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:40,399 Speaker 5: whatever level of competence you think that the Bureau had, 459 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:44,600 Speaker 5: is it being eroded now in this moment when lots 460 00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:48,399 Speaker 5: of career officials are being forced out, when you know 461 00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:51,880 Speaker 5: there are descriptions of the internal culture as being basically 462 00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:54,959 Speaker 5: a culture of caution and fear because people are afraid 463 00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:57,840 Speaker 5: of getting fired. What the consequences of that are going 464 00:24:57,920 --> 00:24:59,840 Speaker 5: to be in moments of crisis, I think we're only 465 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:01,040 Speaker 5: starting to see. 466 00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:06,040 Speaker 1: Let me ask you about the eroding of the FBI. 467 00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:10,240 Speaker 1: What do you think when you look at what's happening 468 00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:12,960 Speaker 1: right now? Obviously you have no insight. This is not 469 00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:15,600 Speaker 1: reporting I'm asking you for. I'm asking you for your 470 00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:20,200 Speaker 1: historical knowledge of the FBI, of which it is big 471 00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:23,440 Speaker 1: to explain to us. When we look at for example, 472 00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:26,800 Speaker 1: we're seeing a lot of unsolved crimes. I'm thinking about Brown. 473 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:31,160 Speaker 1: We're seeing a lot of points in which we're speculating here. 474 00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:34,560 Speaker 1: But this just feels in my mind to be a 475 00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:38,720 Speaker 1: bit unusual to see things like, you know, suspects taken 476 00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:42,320 Speaker 1: into custody photo show and they're name released, and then 477 00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:45,280 Speaker 1: them being released and being told it was the wrong 478 00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:48,360 Speaker 1: guy from the history that you know, not from reporting, 479 00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:51,479 Speaker 1: not in it. I'm putting all these caveats in because 480 00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:53,960 Speaker 1: I really want you just from a historical advantage. 481 00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:56,719 Speaker 2: Does this seem unusual to you for the FBI? 482 00:25:57,040 --> 00:25:59,320 Speaker 1: Or do you feel like there's a lot of history 483 00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:00,960 Speaker 1: of this kind of thing coming from the API. 484 00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:03,760 Speaker 5: Well, I think there's certainly a lot of history of 485 00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:09,520 Speaker 5: challenging investigations where they're working pretty hard, but they're arresting 486 00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:12,600 Speaker 5: the wrong people. The biggest one that I often think 487 00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:15,919 Speaker 5: about is the assassination of Martin Luther King, and that 488 00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:19,600 Speaker 5: took months and was being contested in the press. Now, 489 00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:22,439 Speaker 5: the FBI was very tight lipped about that and was 490 00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:25,359 Speaker 5: actually quite careful about what it was releasing. And so 491 00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:27,879 Speaker 5: I think the main difference in this moment is just 492 00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:33,520 Speaker 5: the communications style and the communications hierarchy or lack thereof, 493 00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:36,720 Speaker 5: you know, in Cash Betel is so much a creature 494 00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:42,359 Speaker 5: of a sort of unfiltered social media provocateur world. You 495 00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:45,600 Speaker 5: know Bongino as well, who's been the number two there, 496 00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:48,280 Speaker 5: And so that seems to me to be very different 497 00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:51,440 Speaker 5: than anything that we have seen at the bureau before. 498 00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:54,399 Speaker 5: View has always been very pr conscious, but it's been 499 00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:58,480 Speaker 5: you know, sort of institutionally based, and this is just 500 00:26:58,840 --> 00:26:59,840 Speaker 5: it's something different. 501 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:00,439 Speaker 3: Together. 502 00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:05,800 Speaker 1: There still are many levels of nonpartisan government employees at 503 00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:08,840 Speaker 1: the FBI. There's just level of level of level of 504 00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:13,160 Speaker 1: nonpartisan FBI agents who are in there. Have you seen 505 00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:16,040 Speaker 1: in history other times when the FBI has had this 506 00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:20,399 Speaker 1: kind of pressure from the top that has affected the 507 00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:22,200 Speaker 1: way they interface with America. 508 00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:25,440 Speaker 5: Yeah, I think one of the interesting things that's happening 509 00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:27,639 Speaker 5: right now is it does seem like there's a real 510 00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:32,040 Speaker 5: struggle over this fundamental question of whether or not the 511 00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:35,760 Speaker 5: FBI is there to be responsive to the White House 512 00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:39,159 Speaker 5: and to the President and to a kind of weaponized 513 00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:43,880 Speaker 5: version of political agenda setting, going after your enemies, all 514 00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:46,880 Speaker 5: of those pieces that we've seen playing out. I'd say 515 00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:50,320 Speaker 5: the best parallel to that would be the Nixon years, 516 00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:53,840 Speaker 5: when Nixon came into office saying that he wanted to 517 00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:59,040 Speaker 5: quote unquote politicize the bureaucracy. He thought that the agencies, 518 00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:03,520 Speaker 5: whether it's the security agencies or really any part of 519 00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:06,960 Speaker 5: the administrative state, right, he thought it was full of Democrats, 520 00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:10,879 Speaker 5: full of career bureaucrats who were not responsive to and 521 00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:14,320 Speaker 5: were actually openly hostile to his agenda, and he was 522 00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:15,960 Speaker 5: determined to do something about that. 523 00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:17,760 Speaker 3: He mostly failed. 524 00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:22,520 Speaker 5: In his showdowns with Hoover, usually won, did not, in 525 00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:25,240 Speaker 5: fact do anything that he didn't want to do, And 526 00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:28,280 Speaker 5: then Hoover died, and you know, part of the story 527 00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:32,800 Speaker 5: of Watergate is about high ranking FBI officials like Mark 528 00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:36,560 Speaker 5: Felt who were upset about not being promoted or what 529 00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:39,560 Speaker 5: Nixon wanted to do with the FBI and leaked this 530 00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:43,520 Speaker 5: information to the press, and you know, YadA, YadA, YadA, 531 00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:46,880 Speaker 5: we get Watergate and Nixon resigns. So I think Nixon 532 00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:49,920 Speaker 5: really lost those battles for the most part. But he's 533 00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:53,160 Speaker 5: the person who's been most overt about wanting to do 534 00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:55,560 Speaker 5: some of what we see the Trump administration doing. And 535 00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:58,440 Speaker 5: I would say, you know, again, for better or mostly 536 00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:02,080 Speaker 5: for worse, doing it more effectively than anyone else. 537 00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:05,200 Speaker 2: Than the Trump administration. You think are now. 538 00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:08,760 Speaker 5: Well that the Trump administration I think is more overtly 539 00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:13,000 Speaker 5: kind of bending the agency to its will that Nixon 540 00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:15,320 Speaker 5: was able to do. But I think it's a very 541 00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:17,560 Speaker 5: dangerous game that's being played there. 542 00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:20,480 Speaker 1: Oh, no question. I'm wondering what you think this sort 543 00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:23,400 Speaker 1: of if you were to, like look at America right now, 544 00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:26,520 Speaker 1: what historical period do you think relates the most to 545 00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:27,680 Speaker 1: where we are at this moment? 546 00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:30,640 Speaker 3: Well? Can I give a few? Yes? 547 00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:31,400 Speaker 2: I would love it. 548 00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:33,680 Speaker 1: I mean that's what I really wanted from you, was 549 00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:36,200 Speaker 1: like when you look at because I know what I think, 550 00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:37,960 Speaker 1: But I don't know what you know and you know 551 00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:38,520 Speaker 1: much more. 552 00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:42,240 Speaker 5: Yeah, Well, I'd say three moments really come to mind. 553 00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:46,080 Speaker 5: So one is the Gilded Age, so the late nineteenth 554 00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:50,360 Speaker 5: early twentieth century, in part because so much of what's 555 00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:54,640 Speaker 5: going on in our politics right now is in some 556 00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:59,120 Speaker 5: sense an attempt to get back there to de regulated 557 00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:04,680 Speaker 5: kind of open, laisse faire capitalist vision, and also to 558 00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:08,240 Speaker 5: dismantle a bunch of the government agencies that were actually 559 00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:11,640 Speaker 5: built in that moment, that's when the idea of civil 560 00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:14,200 Speaker 5: service comes into being, and it seems like there's a 561 00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:15,800 Speaker 5: big push to undo some of that. 562 00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:16,800 Speaker 3: So that's one moment. 563 00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:20,120 Speaker 5: A second moment is the red Scare of the forties 564 00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:24,840 Speaker 5: and fifties your family story there, because I do think 565 00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:28,920 Speaker 5: that some of the kind of overt top down attempts 566 00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:34,520 Speaker 5: to control speech and ideas and expression, particularly at places 567 00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:38,680 Speaker 5: like universities and in the school system in these very 568 00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:41,520 Speaker 5: ideological ways, right, these are things that you are not 569 00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:44,680 Speaker 5: allowed to say, these ideas are too dangerous to be 570 00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:49,120 Speaker 5: in circulation. Is very much a kind of red scare mentality. 571 00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:51,760 Speaker 5: And then the last period is the late sixties and 572 00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:55,760 Speaker 5: early seventies, which had some some of those elements as well, 573 00:30:55,800 --> 00:31:00,400 Speaker 5: but where the question of political violence, and there that 574 00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:03,360 Speaker 5: our political institutions were not going to be able to 575 00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:09,000 Speaker 5: contain people's upset, their rage, their desire to wreak vengeance 576 00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:10,959 Speaker 5: on each other. You know, that was very much a 577 00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:13,840 Speaker 5: part of that very divided moment, and so I think 578 00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:15,240 Speaker 5: we're seeing some of that too. 579 00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:19,720 Speaker 1: I think this is really so interesting and important because 580 00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:23,040 Speaker 1: when you think about the way out of a situation 581 00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:25,480 Speaker 1: like this, the thing I'm struck by so much about 582 00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:30,280 Speaker 1: this moment is the tension, just the tension of you know, 583 00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:33,400 Speaker 1: American institutions not doing what they're supposed to do, or 584 00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:38,440 Speaker 1: like when bad things happen, the country seems unprepared in 585 00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:41,080 Speaker 1: a way that it you know, like I lived in 586 00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:44,200 Speaker 1: New York in two thousand and one. It was catastrophic, 587 00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:46,000 Speaker 1: but it was also we sort of knew how to 588 00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:48,520 Speaker 1: deal with it, if that makes any sense. But this 589 00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:51,720 Speaker 1: moment feels tense in a way that I think other 590 00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:54,760 Speaker 1: moments in my life as an American have not. Can 591 00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:57,240 Speaker 1: you sort of talk to us about the ways out 592 00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:00,840 Speaker 1: of those historical moments that might be element for now? 593 00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:03,640 Speaker 5: Yeah, I think that you're right that there is a 594 00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:07,640 Speaker 5: difference between even twenty years ago and this moment. Some 595 00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:09,960 Speaker 5: of it is just the kind of relentlessness of the 596 00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:13,200 Speaker 5: media environment where you've just got so much coming at 597 00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:16,040 Speaker 5: you all the time that things seem, you know, really 598 00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:19,040 Speaker 5: pretty unstable. In that sense, I'm not sure that we 599 00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:24,280 Speaker 5: were meant to have to process this much information. But 600 00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:28,080 Speaker 5: I think more fundamentally, yeah, there's a real question in 601 00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:33,000 Speaker 5: this moment about whether the major institutions of American life 602 00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:36,240 Speaker 5: are going to hold and continue to exist in the 603 00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:38,520 Speaker 5: same form that they did, whether you're talking about the 604 00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:42,760 Speaker 5: FBI or universities, or Congress or the Supreme Court. I mean, 605 00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:45,080 Speaker 5: there are a whole bunch of them that seem like 606 00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:49,120 Speaker 5: they are going through a pretty fundamental set of changes, 607 00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:53,240 Speaker 5: the consequences of which I think we're still just starting 608 00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:57,280 Speaker 5: to feel. And I guess I would say in other 609 00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:02,320 Speaker 5: moments in the past, there have In the sixties and seventies, 610 00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:05,640 Speaker 5: really was a period where lots of people said, these 611 00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:09,240 Speaker 5: institutions are broken. They've led us into the Vietnam War, 612 00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:14,080 Speaker 5: you know, they've led us into this position of domestic conflict. 613 00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:17,280 Speaker 5: Things need to be fundamentally changed, and there were a 614 00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:19,920 Speaker 5: set of reforms that were put in place, some of 615 00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:22,600 Speaker 5: which worked and others of which didn't, and some of 616 00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:25,320 Speaker 5: which turn out to have been good ideas, and others 617 00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:27,920 Speaker 5: of which actually have helped to produce the world that 618 00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:30,920 Speaker 5: we live in now. You know. One of my favorite 619 00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:34,640 Speaker 5: examples from that moment is the idea was that if 620 00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:39,160 Speaker 5: you could just have a binding, popular primary system were 621 00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:42,200 Speaker 5: selecting presidential candidates, that was going to be great because 622 00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:44,400 Speaker 5: then the people were going to have a say and 623 00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:46,320 Speaker 5: it was all going to be But of course it's 624 00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:49,920 Speaker 5: really been a very problematic system in any number of ways. 625 00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:52,440 Speaker 5: So I guess I would say the one other thing 626 00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:56,280 Speaker 5: that really troubles me about this moment is that so 627 00:33:56,400 --> 00:34:01,680 Speaker 5: many people are so pessimistic about the possibility of creating 628 00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:04,920 Speaker 5: some sort of better future. So if you look to 629 00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:08,799 Speaker 5: the nineteenth century or mid century, people had all sorts 630 00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:11,440 Speaker 5: of diagnoses of the problems. But if you said, do 631 00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:15,879 Speaker 5: you think in twenty thirty forty years a century from 632 00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:18,880 Speaker 5: now people will be better off than they are in 633 00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:22,799 Speaker 5: this moment, and can we create a better world, many 634 00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:25,399 Speaker 5: people would have said yes, And those polls are really 635 00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:28,440 Speaker 5: quite dramatic now that many people just think the future 636 00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:30,760 Speaker 5: is going to be worse than the present or the past, 637 00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:34,120 Speaker 5: and that's a hard way to do politics or to 638 00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:37,000 Speaker 5: kind of create momentum for change. 639 00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:40,920 Speaker 2: Thank you so much. It's just so good good, This 640 00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:42,279 Speaker 2: was really fun to do. 641 00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:47,919 Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in 642 00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:53,680 Speaker 1: every Monday, Wednesday, Thursday, and Saturday to hear the best 643 00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:58,080 Speaker 1: minds and politics make sense of all this chaos. If 644 00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:00,719 Speaker 1: you enjoy this podcast, please please send it to a 645 00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:03,240 Speaker 1: friend and keep the conversation going. 646 00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:04,800 Speaker 2: Thanks for listening.