WEBVTT - Freelancing Like a Pro & Sifting Through Financial Baggage with Paco de Leon #481 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:02.600 Welcome to How the Money. I'm Joel and I in 0:00:02.800 --> 0:00:05.800 Matt and today we're talking freelancing like a pro and 0:00:05.880 --> 0:00:28.040 sifting through financial baggage with Paco daily on. So our 0:00:28.080 --> 0:00:31.600 guest today is Paco dai Leon. Paco founded the Hell 0:00:31.680 --> 0:00:34.919 Yeah Group, which is a financial firm who who focuses 0:00:34.920 --> 0:00:39.000 on inspiring creatives to engage with our personal and business finances. 0:00:39.400 --> 0:00:42.720 And she did this after her experiences in small business consulting, 0:00:43.120 --> 0:00:46.279 financial planning, and wealth management as well. Her work has 0:00:46.320 --> 0:00:49.000 been featured in The New York Times, Forbes, and NPR 0:00:49.120 --> 0:00:51.440 in her new book, Finance for the People, was published 0:00:51.440 --> 0:00:54.720 earlier this month. Not only did Paco author her book, 0:00:55.040 --> 0:00:57.520 but she is also the illustrator and seriously, I gotta 0:00:57.560 --> 0:01:01.280 say her countless illustrations do a fantastic job driving home 0:01:01.520 --> 0:01:04.240 the different points that she's making throughout her book. Uh 0:01:04.400 --> 0:01:07.000 So yeah, if you are a visual learner, we highly 0:01:07.040 --> 0:01:10.320 recommend her book. But here on the podcast, pictures don't 0:01:10.319 --> 0:01:13.759 really cut it. So that's why we're having her join 0:01:13.880 --> 0:01:15.920 us today to talk about what it takes to be 0:01:16.040 --> 0:01:19.280 a creative freelancer. Paco, thank you for joining us today 0:01:19.319 --> 0:01:21.880 on the podcast. Thank you so much, for having me. 0:01:21.920 --> 0:01:24.920 It's my pleasure. Oh parto, We're We're glad to have you. 0:01:24.959 --> 0:01:27.440 I've been following your work for years, since the first 0:01:27.480 --> 0:01:31.080 time you wrote on a blog that my wife follows, 0:01:31.160 --> 0:01:33.400 and I was like, okay, who is this fellow personal 0:01:33.480 --> 0:01:35.840 finance nerd? And yeah, you've been turning out great, great 0:01:35.880 --> 0:01:37.759 work for a lot of years. But let's be honest, 0:01:37.760 --> 0:01:40.640 you're reading Cup of Joe years ago as well, draw well, 0:01:40.680 --> 0:01:43.280 you know, just for lifestyle influence, Matt, That's that's what 0:01:43.280 --> 0:01:45.520 I'm into. But part of the first question, and we 0:01:45.560 --> 0:01:48.440 ask anybody who comes on the show, we drink a 0:01:48.480 --> 0:01:51.080 craft beer just because it signifies that we're willing to 0:01:51.120 --> 0:01:53.760 spend a good bit of money on something that we 0:01:53.840 --> 0:01:56.720 love in here and now, while we're also being smart 0:01:56.800 --> 0:01:59.480 doing the adult thing and saving and investing for our future. 0:02:00.160 --> 0:02:01.520 What is that in your life? Do you have a 0:02:01.520 --> 0:02:04.480 craft beer equivalent to a splurge akin to what Matt 0:02:04.520 --> 0:02:07.400 and I do. I guess I would say I enjoy 0:02:07.520 --> 0:02:11.480 whiskey myself. I like Scotch and I and you know 0:02:11.960 --> 0:02:15.200 that sometimes it's not cheap, and uh, I'm not I'm 0:02:15.200 --> 0:02:18.519 not afraid to throw down for for something nice. Like that. 0:02:19.000 --> 0:02:22.600 I'm also I'm really into travel. My wife loves traveling, 0:02:23.120 --> 0:02:26.760 and so you know, I find myself traveling the world 0:02:27.000 --> 0:02:29.480 and sometimes, you know, we'll pay for a tour guide 0:02:29.480 --> 0:02:31.160 for the first couple of days when we land in 0:02:31.160 --> 0:02:33.800 a new city. And for some people, you know that 0:02:33.880 --> 0:02:35.840 they might not think it's worth it, but for us, 0:02:35.880 --> 0:02:38.119 it's a way to get our bearings. It's a way 0:02:38.160 --> 0:02:40.600 to you know, learn some phrases and to get kind 0:02:40.600 --> 0:02:43.160 of a local look at, you know, at the lay 0:02:43.200 --> 0:02:46.040 of the land. Um. And you know, the last few 0:02:46.040 --> 0:02:52.639 times we did upgraded business class, and I'm sorry, I'm 0:02:52.680 --> 0:02:54.840 not sorry about it. I mean it was it was 0:02:54.880 --> 0:02:58.080 definitely a splurge. But I'll tell you, like I sat down, 0:02:59.080 --> 0:03:00.960 you know, sat down in my chair. They like took 0:03:00.960 --> 0:03:04.359 my code, they took my hat, and then the attendant 0:03:04.560 --> 0:03:07.640 came right up to me and uttered words I thought 0:03:07.760 --> 0:03:10.160 would never be uttered, a question to me that would 0:03:10.200 --> 0:03:12.160 never be uttered on a flight, and he asked me, 0:03:12.680 --> 0:03:17.800 are you comfortable, ma'am? Like what they never care if 0:03:17.800 --> 0:03:19.960 you're comfortable on the plane. So that really was jarring, 0:03:20.000 --> 0:03:24.520 among other things. That's quite the juxtaposition to flying spirits, 0:03:24.800 --> 0:03:29.080 right exactly, frontier, but hopefully, hopefully y'all can do some 0:03:29.480 --> 0:03:32.040 Have you ever traveled to Scotland, because I'm thinking you 0:03:32.080 --> 0:03:35.720 could just combine your two loves right there. Yeah, Scotland 0:03:35.760 --> 0:03:37.320 is is someplace I definitely want to go. As a 0:03:37.400 --> 0:03:40.880 huge fan of Scotches, specifically the eye lay Scotches, I'm 0:03:40.920 --> 0:03:43.880 all about that smoky smoky. Actually, do you have a 0:03:43.960 --> 0:03:46.560 favorite favorite Scotch? I mean, okay, so yes, I've been 0:03:46.560 --> 0:03:49.520 to Scotland. My one of my best friends was doing 0:03:49.560 --> 0:03:53.520 an art program, a graduate art program at the University 0:03:53.760 --> 0:03:56.600 of Scotland or Glasgow, and so we went out there 0:03:56.680 --> 0:03:59.440 and it was so miserably cold, but thankfully we had 0:04:00.160 --> 0:04:04.600 nice whiskey to to warm our bodies. Um, I mean 0:04:04.640 --> 0:04:06.600 at the moment, what am I drinking at the moment? 0:04:07.560 --> 0:04:09.520 You know, I've been taking it back to my American 0:04:09.600 --> 0:04:11.560 roots at the moment and just kind of sipping on 0:04:11.600 --> 0:04:16.080 bourbon and appreciating bourbon classics, you know, Buffalo trace and 0:04:16.600 --> 0:04:19.279 oddly enough, Irish whiskey. Have you guys ever had red 0:04:19.279 --> 0:04:22.920 Breast now have I? I've seen the bottle before. That 0:04:22.960 --> 0:04:27.880 whiskey is candy. It's amazing, It's so smooth, it's not 0:04:27.960 --> 0:04:31.840 as smokey, but I think you know, there's not very 0:04:31.880 --> 0:04:34.120 many Irish whiskey is on the market. There's, like, you know, 0:04:34.200 --> 0:04:36.920 Jamison is the most popular one, but Red Breast. If 0:04:36.960 --> 0:04:38.680 you ever get an opportunity to see it on a 0:04:39.160 --> 0:04:42.000 on a shelf at a bar, try it, and I'd 0:04:42.000 --> 0:04:43.520 love to know what you'll think about it. Give it 0:04:43.560 --> 0:04:45.480 a give it a taste. I mean, if if it 0:04:45.560 --> 0:04:51.040 drinks like candy, You've got me there. Uh Faco. Let's 0:04:51.040 --> 0:04:53.440 talk about money, because you've had an interesting career, you know, 0:04:53.600 --> 0:04:56.680 within the personal finance space. I'm very curious though about 0:04:56.680 --> 0:04:59.039 your first job as a debt collector as well. How 0:04:59.520 --> 0:05:02.240 was that And I would like to know if there 0:05:02.240 --> 0:05:04.360 are any lessons that you learned from doing that job. 0:05:04.760 --> 0:05:09.680 So many lessons, Uh, I don't think. You know, when 0:05:09.680 --> 0:05:12.080 you recall your memories, every time you recall them, they're 0:05:12.080 --> 0:05:14.320 a little bit more corrupted. Let me just preface it 0:05:14.360 --> 0:05:16.719 with that. But when I think about when I applied 0:05:16.760 --> 0:05:19.520 for this job when I was like twenty years old, 0:05:19.960 --> 0:05:22.760 I think that it said credit manager and it didn't 0:05:22.800 --> 0:05:27.200 say the words debt collector on it because I don't Yeah, 0:05:27.240 --> 0:05:28.640 I don't think I would have been like, let me 0:05:28.720 --> 0:05:32.599 jump at the opportunity to call people and collect money 0:05:32.600 --> 0:05:35.880 on behalf of a giant, evil bank. Like that doesn't 0:05:35.960 --> 0:05:37.760 seem like something that I would do. But I think 0:05:37.800 --> 0:05:41.599 once I got into the job, actually before I even 0:05:41.600 --> 0:05:43.200 got the job, it was like a cattle call. It 0:05:43.240 --> 0:05:45.400 was like a casting call, like there was a line 0:05:45.400 --> 0:05:47.960 at the door. Um, we all just sat down at 0:05:47.960 --> 0:05:50.720 a table with somebody that worked there, and they did 0:05:50.760 --> 0:05:52.760 this faux interview with us where they were like or 0:05:52.800 --> 0:05:55.800 this faux collection call with us, like role playing. I 0:05:55.880 --> 0:05:58.479 was horrible. I was terrible. The the woman on the 0:05:58.480 --> 0:06:00.720 other side at the table just kept saying I can't pay, 0:06:00.800 --> 0:06:04.160 and then I would just be like, well, okay, um, 0:06:04.160 --> 0:06:09.040 sorry about that. Right. So I I don't know how 0:06:09.160 --> 0:06:12.680 I even got past that initial interview phase, but I did. 0:06:13.240 --> 0:06:15.320 And when I got into the job, I was like, okay, cool. 0:06:15.400 --> 0:06:17.839 So for four hours a day, five days a week, 0:06:17.880 --> 0:06:20.160 I come into this call center, put on a headset, 0:06:20.200 --> 0:06:22.799 sit in front of a computer and ask people for money. 0:06:22.839 --> 0:06:26.120 This is going to be at least interesting. So um. 0:06:26.279 --> 0:06:30.599 I did that for two years and actually the summer 0:06:30.640 --> 0:06:33.800 that I quit was right before the housing crash. It 0:06:33.839 --> 0:06:37.760 was and Bank of America had just acquired countrywide, and 0:06:37.800 --> 0:06:40.880 there was a certain night on the on the floor 0:06:41.400 --> 0:06:44.760 at work where there was these accounts called J accounts, 0:06:45.160 --> 0:06:47.159 and we were not allowed to collect on those accounts 0:06:47.160 --> 0:06:50.200 because everybody on my team and myself included, we were 0:06:50.279 --> 0:06:52.560 just like kind of a baby collector, you know. We 0:06:52.600 --> 0:06:55.200 only collected on auto loans that were less than thirty 0:06:55.240 --> 0:06:58.120 days past two, and it was mostly people traveling or 0:06:58.120 --> 0:07:00.919 people who had just forgotten. It wasn't like hard core collections. 0:07:01.200 --> 0:07:04.200 And they said, never ever, ever, ever, uh collect on 0:07:04.200 --> 0:07:06.359 a J account because it might be in foreclosure and 0:07:06.400 --> 0:07:08.560 if you collect on it, you know, those people might 0:07:08.560 --> 0:07:11.200 not get their money back. And one night on the dialer, 0:07:11.360 --> 0:07:13.920 the thing that's you know, dialing on our behalf, all 0:07:13.960 --> 0:07:16.840 these J accounts kept popping up, and I kept saying, oops, 0:07:16.840 --> 0:07:18.920 I'm sorry, we missdialed, and I would hang up. And 0:07:18.960 --> 0:07:21.600 after about five of those calls, I looked around and 0:07:21.640 --> 0:07:23.920 all my other coworkers were like, yeah, this J account 0:07:23.960 --> 0:07:26.440 stuff keeps popping up. So we went to our our 0:07:26.520 --> 0:07:28.560 our lead, and then the lead went to the VP 0:07:28.680 --> 0:07:31.280 who was on call that evening, and they came out 0:07:31.280 --> 0:07:33.480 and said, do the best you can. And so I 0:07:33.520 --> 0:07:37.920 think that signifies, or that one little vignette shows you 0:07:38.000 --> 0:07:42.080 that when that housing crisis happened, literally the bank did 0:07:42.120 --> 0:07:44.600 not have the infrastructure, and a lot of times the 0:07:44.680 --> 0:07:46.520 left hand didn't know what the right hand was doing 0:07:46.520 --> 0:07:48.840 because it was just crumbling. You know, it was like 0:07:49.040 --> 0:07:52.440 trying to hold water. It was not We were not equipped. 0:07:52.480 --> 0:07:56.280 And thankfully, thankfully, thankfully, um, I didn't have to deal 0:07:56.320 --> 0:07:59.520 with it in terms of being a collector during that time. 0:07:59.560 --> 0:08:03.040 I went and I had just graduated college in college 0:08:03.080 --> 0:08:05.640 and I had another job. But I know I've been rambling, 0:08:05.640 --> 0:08:07.240 But one other thing I want to say about the 0:08:07.280 --> 0:08:09.920 debt collecting job, I did learn a lot. I learned 0:08:09.960 --> 0:08:13.200 how to talk to any person about money, and I 0:08:13.240 --> 0:08:17.280 think that has what has been really um important for 0:08:17.320 --> 0:08:18.960 me and like kind of set the tone for me 0:08:19.040 --> 0:08:21.720 being able to do sales and be a financial planner 0:08:21.800 --> 0:08:24.560 and and even do this kind of thing now. I think, 0:08:24.560 --> 0:08:26.680 you know, we've all had a soul sucking job at 0:08:26.720 --> 0:08:28.720 one point or another in our lives. And I think 0:08:28.760 --> 0:08:31.560 when you can take away a good skill, even from 0:08:31.560 --> 0:08:34.680 a job that you look back on potentially even with horror, 0:08:34.840 --> 0:08:36.560 I think that's a good thing, and so yeah, I 0:08:36.600 --> 0:08:39.120 love that that you have something positive to take away 0:08:39.120 --> 0:08:42.720 from what sounds like a mostly negative experience. But while 0:08:42.760 --> 0:08:45.200 we're going over your resume, Popo, I want to ask 0:08:45.600 --> 0:08:48.240 the last job you had before striking it out on 0:08:48.280 --> 0:08:50.880 your own. You were working for a guy that started 0:08:50.920 --> 0:08:54.040 his own marijuana business, right, and it sounds like that 0:08:54.200 --> 0:08:57.199 actually got your creative juices flowing. Can you tell us 0:08:57.240 --> 0:08:59.760 maybe a little bit more about that gig? Yes, be 0:09:00.040 --> 0:09:02.880 for I move on to tell you about the marijuana consulting. 0:09:02.960 --> 0:09:05.280 I want the record to state that I actually liked 0:09:05.360 --> 0:09:08.040 the collection job. I liked everybody I worked with it, 0:09:09.880 --> 0:09:11.960 and I was good at collecting, and I was nice 0:09:12.000 --> 0:09:14.040 and kind and I helped people and I felt like 0:09:14.120 --> 0:09:17.160 I was making a difference, you know. So, Um, it 0:09:17.280 --> 0:09:19.920 sounds crazy to think that somebody could enjoy a debt 0:09:19.920 --> 0:09:22.400 collecting job, but I it was. It was fine for me. 0:09:22.480 --> 0:09:24.959 I've had way wards jobs. Um. It is also a 0:09:25.040 --> 0:09:28.200 necessary industry, and I think it unfairly gets a bad rap. 0:09:28.240 --> 0:09:31.040 There are because there's bad players. There are bad players, 0:09:31.160 --> 0:09:33.440 and those few bad apples can really make it sound 0:09:33.440 --> 0:09:35.719 like everybody who is in the det collecting industry is 0:09:35.760 --> 0:09:38.439 a terrible person. Thanks, guys. I mean I was the 0:09:38.480 --> 0:09:40.160 same Poco, I just had a different job. So if 0:09:40.160 --> 0:09:43.679 you can imagine, Hi, I'm Paco and like I want 0:09:43.679 --> 0:09:45.800 to help you out here with your Toyota Tacoma. Okay. 0:09:46.000 --> 0:09:49.680 So I worked for this guy who was running this 0:09:49.960 --> 0:09:54.439 online business, and what he was offering was writing and 0:09:54.600 --> 0:09:59.920 creating business plans, including creating the financials um for people 0:10:00.000 --> 0:10:02.240 who wanted to set up a marijuana business in the 0:10:02.320 --> 0:10:05.240 United States of America. And we would help people set 0:10:05.320 --> 0:10:10.680 up grow operations, dispensaries, and delivery services. And there's one more, 0:10:11.120 --> 0:10:15.120 I guess testing testing facilities that are that that's kind 0:10:15.120 --> 0:10:16.839 of a new thing in the industry since it kind 0:10:16.840 --> 0:10:18.880 of went legit. And so what we would do is 0:10:18.920 --> 0:10:21.240 we would put the offering online. We would say we 0:10:21.280 --> 0:10:25.040 can do this for you anywhere Colorado wherever it's legal Florida, 0:10:25.559 --> 0:10:27.520 and then people would call us and we would try 0:10:27.559 --> 0:10:30.120 to sell the service to them, and then if they 0:10:30.160 --> 0:10:33.040 would buy the service, we would get the money into 0:10:33.040 --> 0:10:35.120 the account. Then I would have to call the city 0:10:35.160 --> 0:10:38.400 and be like a high um city of Boulder, Colorado. 0:10:38.559 --> 0:10:40.240 I have a client who's looking to open up a 0:10:40.280 --> 0:10:44.440 grow operation at this location? Is this legal? Like we 0:10:44.440 --> 0:10:47.800 would take people's money before we knew whether or not 0:10:47.840 --> 0:10:49.280 we could help them, and if we could help them, 0:10:49.480 --> 0:10:51.840 we would just keep going. And if we couldn't, oftentimes 0:10:51.880 --> 0:10:53.520 we would either refund the money or say we need 0:10:53.559 --> 0:10:56.880 to find another location. So this guy was not exactly 0:10:57.400 --> 0:11:00.480 you know, it seems shady because it I think that's 0:11:00.480 --> 0:11:04.320 a little bit shady, but you know, business is what 0:11:04.440 --> 0:11:07.400 I learned from that guy is that, uh a lot 0:11:07.440 --> 0:11:09.440 of people are kind of making it up as they go, 0:11:09.640 --> 0:11:12.240 Like we I don't need permission, Like I don't need 0:11:12.280 --> 0:11:16.920 to be expert with twenty five years experience in order 0:11:16.960 --> 0:11:19.720 to help people. I have a good amount of experience 0:11:19.760 --> 0:11:22.440 working as a financial planner and having a finance degree 0:11:22.840 --> 0:11:26.959 and just working in all these financial services industries in general. 0:11:27.040 --> 0:11:29.920 That you know, even my advice of like you know, 0:11:30.000 --> 0:11:33.040 save every you know, save a portion of everything you learned. 0:11:33.080 --> 0:11:35.600 That's good advice, you know, And I'm not scamming people. 0:11:35.640 --> 0:11:38.240 And anyways, so we did all that sort of stuff, 0:11:38.280 --> 0:11:40.880 and uh yeah, I mean he he he was the 0:11:40.880 --> 0:11:44.960 guy actually who he let me go. And as he 0:11:45.040 --> 0:11:48.559 was letting me go, he goes promised me one thing. 0:11:48.640 --> 0:11:50.840 And I was like, why is this guy asking me 0:11:50.880 --> 0:11:54.000 to promise him something as he's basically firing me, right, 0:11:54.400 --> 0:11:55.920 I'm like, okay, what what do you what do you 0:11:55.920 --> 0:11:58.160 want me to promise? And he goes, promised me that 0:11:58.200 --> 0:12:00.559 you won't get like some stupid off his job. You're 0:12:00.559 --> 0:12:03.120 too smart for that. And he goes, you'd be surprised 0:12:03.160 --> 0:12:06.679 at how you rise to the occasion. And I was like, okay, dude, 0:12:06.720 --> 0:12:09.120 like that's a weird, cryptic thing to say to somebody 0:12:09.200 --> 0:12:12.000 as you're taking away their livelihood. But then you know, 0:12:12.040 --> 0:12:14.840 I went on an unemployment which is basically, right, a 0:12:14.960 --> 0:12:18.280 version of universal basic income, and I would sit quietly 0:12:18.280 --> 0:12:20.960 every day and I would just wait to kind of 0:12:21.400 --> 0:12:24.000 feel like, okay, what is my intuition going to say? 0:12:24.160 --> 0:12:26.920 Or I just had space to kind of pause and 0:12:27.040 --> 0:12:30.800 like craft a life that I didn't I didn't have 0:12:30.840 --> 0:12:33.960 that space before. And so I thank him for firing me. 0:12:34.000 --> 0:12:36.440 I thank him for making me make that promise, and 0:12:36.480 --> 0:12:40.600 I thank the government for weeks of unemployment. And it 0:12:40.640 --> 0:12:43.400 all happens for a reason. And you know, especially obviously 0:12:43.440 --> 0:12:45.360 when you're doing that collecting, you didn't have any time 0:12:45.440 --> 0:12:47.440 to I mean literally, you're sitting there in the dialer, 0:12:47.559 --> 0:12:50.120 it automatically feeds you the next call. You literally didn't 0:12:50.120 --> 0:12:53.120 have any time. But sometimes we do need to reflect, 0:12:53.120 --> 0:12:56.160 and I think that's something that we is oftentimes missing 0:12:56.200 --> 0:12:59.080 when it comes to us pursuing whatever our next job 0:12:59.320 --> 0:13:01.679 or what career we want to advance. And sometimes it's 0:13:01.720 --> 0:13:04.320 unemployment insurance and sometimes it's savings on hand that gives 0:13:04.360 --> 0:13:06.720 us the ability to have that time, because if you don't, 0:13:06.920 --> 0:13:09.000 you're forced to take the next job that comes along 0:13:09.000 --> 0:13:10.800 in order to pay the bills that month. And that's 0:13:10.840 --> 0:13:14.600 not the position you want to be in. Yeah, Park Specifically, 0:13:14.640 --> 0:13:16.520 you're creative, right, and you say that folks who are 0:13:16.559 --> 0:13:20.040 in the creative fields they're often underpaid, And so like, 0:13:20.040 --> 0:13:21.719 what do you think it's a solution for folks you 0:13:21.760 --> 0:13:24.840 know who have the strong creative side, but who oftentimes 0:13:24.880 --> 0:13:27.640 have a difficult time just finding the ways to increase 0:13:27.679 --> 0:13:30.160 their income. I mean, I think they really have to 0:13:30.200 --> 0:13:32.880 do the hard work and kind of dig and understand 0:13:33.040 --> 0:13:37.440 why they're undervaluing themselves. What is it that there? Do 0:13:37.520 --> 0:13:39.720 they have a mental hang up? Do they think that 0:13:40.240 --> 0:13:43.520 because the work comes easy, that they shouldn't be paid 0:13:43.760 --> 0:13:46.680 a certain amount um? That's one thing I think a 0:13:46.679 --> 0:13:49.000 lot of folks can do. The other thing is trying 0:13:49.040 --> 0:13:52.480 to understand the end value that the person that you're 0:13:52.480 --> 0:13:55.880 selling your product or service to gets and come at 0:13:55.920 --> 0:13:59.439 your pricing from a value perspective and not how much 0:13:59.480 --> 0:14:02.079 time does take me perspective or how much energy does 0:14:02.120 --> 0:14:04.280 this require of me? And I think when you really 0:14:04.320 --> 0:14:06.800 start to understand that, you understand that there's a lot 0:14:06.880 --> 0:14:11.000 more flexibility in pricing. And two there's maybe a whole 0:14:11.080 --> 0:14:13.840 demographic and market that you might be missing, you know 0:14:13.840 --> 0:14:15.400 what I mean, Or you're not thinking about you're not 0:14:15.400 --> 0:14:18.320 thinking about the people who really really value the thing 0:14:18.360 --> 0:14:21.120 that you're providing. I think sometimes we think about it 0:14:21.200 --> 0:14:24.440 like it's an hourly rate thing, and and if we do, 0:14:24.760 --> 0:14:28.160 we're we're we're devaluing our services because it took a 0:14:28.200 --> 0:14:31.640 lot of hours and in many cases decades to get 0:14:31.680 --> 0:14:33.400 to the point where we're at with the skills that 0:14:33.440 --> 0:14:36.000 we have, with the knowledge that we have that it 0:14:36.040 --> 0:14:39.160 goes beyond just uh, yeah, I've worked for fifty an 0:14:39.200 --> 0:14:41.880 hour or or whatever it is that you've kind of 0:14:41.880 --> 0:14:43.920 set yourself up to be compensated for, which I'll say, 0:14:43.960 --> 0:14:46.280 I feel like oftentimes comes from a point of view 0:14:46.320 --> 0:14:49.480 that is more entrenched than in the traditional like traditional 0:14:49.480 --> 0:14:51.800 fields of work. Right, And so I'm specifically thinking of 0:14:51.800 --> 0:14:55.080 a friend of ours and he gets paid hourly. He is, 0:14:55.600 --> 0:14:57.320 you know, at the law school. He's a very smart guy, 0:14:57.600 --> 0:15:00.320 and he jokes about He's like, man, my plumber makes 0:15:00.360 --> 0:15:02.920 more per hour than I do. And it's like, well, dude, 0:15:02.960 --> 0:15:05.040 you're you're totally looking at this from the wrong perspective 0:15:05.040 --> 0:15:06.760 because he's looking at it, you know, by the hour, 0:15:07.200 --> 0:15:10.280 whereas that plumber is keeping you from having to dig 0:15:10.320 --> 0:15:14.640 through your own crap, Like, so literally, what is that? Literally? 0:15:14.680 --> 0:15:17.000 What is that worth to you? Uh? And then you 0:15:17.040 --> 0:15:18.960 will see why does that plumbers are paid so much? 0:15:19.120 --> 0:15:21.480 It just takes kind of shifting how you approach these 0:15:21.480 --> 0:15:23.600 different problems, Like you said, well and and partly you 0:15:23.640 --> 0:15:26.000 also you mentioned that we've got to we've got to 0:15:26.000 --> 0:15:28.800 get better at selling ourselves. And so what else do 0:15:28.880 --> 0:15:31.360 creatives need to consider when it comes to how they're 0:15:31.360 --> 0:15:35.320 pricing their services and kind of making themselves more appealing 0:15:35.760 --> 0:15:38.960 in the market. I mean, definitely, we have to be 0:15:39.040 --> 0:15:42.440 constantly communicating to our audience. I mean, I think building 0:15:42.480 --> 0:15:45.960 an audience is a requirement for an artist and a 0:15:45.960 --> 0:15:50.120 creative person, especially somebody who's self employed, who's independent, it 0:15:50.240 --> 0:15:53.560 just seems like, really, if you don't build an audience, 0:15:54.080 --> 0:15:57.320 then you're always trying to make sales. I'm not really 0:15:57.320 --> 0:16:01.160 sure how right, Like you're relying maybe on earls UM 0:16:01.200 --> 0:16:02.960 and I think that's great, But you have to think 0:16:03.000 --> 0:16:07.760 about your sales funnel. Is how they get into their 0:16:08.120 --> 0:16:10.640 how your potential clients get into your sales funnel. It's 0:16:10.640 --> 0:16:13.040 a number of ways. It could be from an Instagram post, 0:16:13.240 --> 0:16:16.400 it could be from doing a podcast interview. It could 0:16:16.400 --> 0:16:19.040 be from an article that you wrote. It could be 0:16:19.120 --> 0:16:20.800 from a number of things. It could be from an 0:16:20.840 --> 0:16:22.920 attorney that you work with often. And you guys have 0:16:22.960 --> 0:16:25.640 the same kind of clients, and so thinking about how 0:16:25.680 --> 0:16:29.080 you're reaching people um and thinking about all the different 0:16:29.080 --> 0:16:32.080 ways that you can reach them I think is really important. No, 0:16:32.360 --> 0:16:33.800 I don't think that we all have to get on 0:16:33.840 --> 0:16:35.560 caup House and we all have to get on TikTok 0:16:35.600 --> 0:16:37.600 and we all have to have a podcast. I don't 0:16:37.640 --> 0:16:39.080 think we all need to do that. I think you 0:16:39.160 --> 0:16:42.160 just need to find something that feels natural for you, 0:16:42.280 --> 0:16:45.280 and it could be like a blog where it's basically 0:16:45.360 --> 0:16:48.240 like a photojournal and you post, you know, photos that 0:16:48.280 --> 0:16:51.000 are inspiring, or it could be an email newsletter, or 0:16:51.040 --> 0:16:53.480 it could be you know, something you do like a 0:16:53.480 --> 0:16:55.760 weekly live on Instagram or something like that. I do 0:16:55.840 --> 0:16:58.720 think it's really important to be highly visible and to 0:16:58.840 --> 0:17:02.880 communicate to your audio if you are, you know, actively 0:17:02.920 --> 0:17:05.600 saying I'm going to participate in commerce in this way. 0:17:05.640 --> 0:17:07.520 But of course there are outliers. I think if you're 0:17:07.560 --> 0:17:12.400 a fine artist and you know you are selling high 0:17:12.520 --> 0:17:16.000 end art, that's not necessarily you know, commerce kind of 0:17:16.040 --> 0:17:17.960 on the nose. I think you can get away with 0:17:18.000 --> 0:17:21.600 being mysterious and weird, and you can find ways that 0:17:21.640 --> 0:17:24.000 you can build an audience that's, you know, more authentic 0:17:24.040 --> 0:17:26.119 to you. So you don't necessarily have to dance on 0:17:26.119 --> 0:17:28.480 TikTok if you're selling those like hundred thousand dollar paintings. 0:17:29.800 --> 0:17:32.680 Would you can if you want to market some of 0:17:32.720 --> 0:17:35.119 your artwork. That's one of the things I appreciate you 0:17:35.119 --> 0:17:36.440 saying that, because that's one of the things that we've 0:17:36.520 --> 0:17:39.160 actively kind of avoided. And we know ourselves and it's 0:17:39.160 --> 0:17:41.439 not that we probably couldn't build some sort of a 0:17:41.440 --> 0:17:43.680 TikTok audience, but it's not We're not naturally inclined to 0:17:43.720 --> 0:17:45.240 do that. Folks would show up for the train wreck 0:17:45.680 --> 0:17:48.560 like they people get hurt. Yeah, it would be like 0:17:48.560 --> 0:17:51.640 hashta TikTok fails like on the rag. And so it's 0:17:51.640 --> 0:17:53.560 one of those things where I think sometimes people feel 0:17:53.760 --> 0:17:57.040 like they have to be present in every form where 0:17:57.040 --> 0:17:59.920 people are consuming. Uh. And and if that's the case, 0:18:00.280 --> 0:18:03.040 you're probably gonna be not very great on most of 0:18:03.040 --> 0:18:05.560 those forms. And I think, um, yeah, picking one or 0:18:05.600 --> 0:18:07.760 two where you can specialize and be really good, it's 0:18:07.800 --> 0:18:10.360 probably better than spreading yourself too thin and being on 0:18:10.680 --> 0:18:13.720 has like all of the above right that that you 0:18:13.720 --> 0:18:16.679 can join. Um, But Paco, We've got more that we 0:18:16.720 --> 0:18:18.720 want to get to with you in this conversation. We 0:18:18.720 --> 0:18:20.800 want to talk about emotions and money, and we want 0:18:20.800 --> 0:18:23.920 to talk about unearthing some of our personal finance baggage. 0:18:23.960 --> 0:18:26.359 We'll get to some of those questions right after this break. 0:18:35.800 --> 0:18:37.480 All right, we're back from the break and we're talking 0:18:37.520 --> 0:18:39.920 with Paco daily On about you know, we just talked 0:18:39.920 --> 0:18:43.000 about freelancing specifically and kind of basically how to set 0:18:43.040 --> 0:18:46.200 yourself apart and regardless, uh, you know, if you're talking 0:18:46.240 --> 0:18:50.280 about your personal finances regardless if you're talking more about 0:18:50.320 --> 0:18:52.560 your you know, kind of your business finances. There are 0:18:52.560 --> 0:18:54.840 a number of things that can keep us from achieving 0:18:55.160 --> 0:18:57.639 what we're looking to achieve with our money. And you know, 0:18:57.680 --> 0:19:00.160 one of the main topics in your new books knows 0:19:00.160 --> 0:19:03.720 around emotions and feelings. Because our emotions that you know, 0:19:03.720 --> 0:19:06.680 they tell us that we're not worth more. That can 0:19:06.720 --> 0:19:09.159 play into the reality, you know, and then we end 0:19:09.200 --> 0:19:11.040 up setting our rates too low. Basically, it's sort of 0:19:11.080 --> 0:19:14.919 like we manifest something into existence. Um. And you know, 0:19:15.000 --> 0:19:17.520 you say that dealing with your feelings is an essential 0:19:17.640 --> 0:19:20.800 piece of dealing with your finances. I totally agree, but 0:19:20.840 --> 0:19:23.600 I feel like that this is something that's easier actually 0:19:23.720 --> 0:19:26.359 said than done. It's so much easier said than done. 0:19:26.440 --> 0:19:30.320 It's so much more challenging to be the person who 0:19:30.400 --> 0:19:33.760 has to sit there and face some of those really 0:19:33.760 --> 0:19:37.520 negative feelings like shame or guilt or you know, a 0:19:37.600 --> 0:19:43.120 lack of worth. And I want society too. I wanted 0:19:43.160 --> 0:19:45.880 to be more normal in society to sit with these 0:19:45.920 --> 0:19:48.840 negative feelings and to admit that we all have them, 0:19:49.480 --> 0:19:52.200 and to help each other with tools that have worked 0:19:52.200 --> 0:19:54.639 for us to kind of get through them. You know 0:19:54.680 --> 0:19:57.120 what I mean, instead of just trying to ignore it 0:19:57.320 --> 0:20:00.119