1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,600 Speaker 1: Welcome to How the Money. I'm Joel and I in 2 00:00:02,800 --> 00:00:05,800 Speaker 1: Matt and today we're talking freelancing like a pro and 3 00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:28,040 Speaker 1: sifting through financial baggage with Paco daily on. So our 4 00:00:28,080 --> 00:00:31,600 Speaker 1: guest today is Paco dai Leon. Paco founded the Hell 5 00:00:31,680 --> 00:00:34,919 Speaker 1: Yeah Group, which is a financial firm who who focuses 6 00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:39,000 Speaker 1: on inspiring creatives to engage with our personal and business finances. 7 00:00:39,400 --> 00:00:42,720 Speaker 1: And she did this after her experiences in small business consulting, 8 00:00:43,120 --> 00:00:46,279 Speaker 1: financial planning, and wealth management as well. Her work has 9 00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:49,000 Speaker 1: been featured in The New York Times, Forbes, and NPR 10 00:00:49,120 --> 00:00:51,440 Speaker 1: in her new book, Finance for the People, was published 11 00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:54,720 Speaker 1: earlier this month. Not only did Paco author her book, 12 00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:57,520 Speaker 1: but she is also the illustrator and seriously, I gotta 13 00:00:57,560 --> 00:01:01,280 Speaker 1: say her countless illustrations do a fantastic job driving home 14 00:01:01,520 --> 00:01:04,240 Speaker 1: the different points that she's making throughout her book. Uh 15 00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:07,000 Speaker 1: So yeah, if you are a visual learner, we highly 16 00:01:07,040 --> 00:01:10,320 Speaker 1: recommend her book. But here on the podcast, pictures don't 17 00:01:10,319 --> 00:01:13,759 Speaker 1: really cut it. So that's why we're having her join 18 00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:15,920 Speaker 1: us today to talk about what it takes to be 19 00:01:16,040 --> 00:01:19,280 Speaker 1: a creative freelancer. Paco, thank you for joining us today 20 00:01:19,319 --> 00:01:21,880 Speaker 1: on the podcast. Thank you so much, for having me. 21 00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:24,920 Speaker 1: It's my pleasure. Oh parto, We're We're glad to have you. 22 00:01:24,959 --> 00:01:27,440 Speaker 1: I've been following your work for years, since the first 23 00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:31,080 Speaker 1: time you wrote on a blog that my wife follows, 24 00:01:31,160 --> 00:01:33,400 Speaker 1: and I was like, okay, who is this fellow personal 25 00:01:33,480 --> 00:01:35,840 Speaker 1: finance nerd? And yeah, you've been turning out great, great 26 00:01:35,880 --> 00:01:37,759 Speaker 1: work for a lot of years. But let's be honest, 27 00:01:37,760 --> 00:01:40,640 Speaker 1: you're reading Cup of Joe years ago as well, draw well, 28 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:43,280 Speaker 1: you know, just for lifestyle influence, Matt, That's that's what 29 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:45,520 Speaker 1: I'm into. But part of the first question, and we 30 00:01:45,560 --> 00:01:48,440 Speaker 1: ask anybody who comes on the show, we drink a 31 00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:51,080 Speaker 1: craft beer just because it signifies that we're willing to 32 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:53,760 Speaker 1: spend a good bit of money on something that we 33 00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:56,720 Speaker 1: love in here and now, while we're also being smart 34 00:01:56,800 --> 00:01:59,480 Speaker 1: doing the adult thing and saving and investing for our future. 35 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:01,520 Speaker 1: What is that in your life? Do you have a 36 00:02:01,520 --> 00:02:04,480 Speaker 1: craft beer equivalent to a splurge akin to what Matt 37 00:02:04,520 --> 00:02:07,400 Speaker 1: and I do. I guess I would say I enjoy 38 00:02:07,520 --> 00:02:11,480 Speaker 1: whiskey myself. I like Scotch and I and you know 39 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:15,200 Speaker 1: that sometimes it's not cheap, and uh, I'm not I'm 40 00:02:15,200 --> 00:02:18,519 Speaker 1: not afraid to throw down for for something nice. Like that. 41 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:22,600 Speaker 1: I'm also I'm really into travel. My wife loves traveling, 42 00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:26,760 Speaker 1: and so you know, I find myself traveling the world 43 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:29,480 Speaker 1: and sometimes, you know, we'll pay for a tour guide 44 00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:31,160 Speaker 1: for the first couple of days when we land in 45 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:33,800 Speaker 1: a new city. And for some people, you know that 46 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:35,840 Speaker 1: they might not think it's worth it, but for us, 47 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:38,119 Speaker 1: it's a way to get our bearings. It's a way 48 00:02:38,160 --> 00:02:40,600 Speaker 1: to you know, learn some phrases and to get kind 49 00:02:40,600 --> 00:02:43,160 Speaker 1: of a local look at, you know, at the lay 50 00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:46,040 Speaker 1: of the land. Um. And you know, the last few 51 00:02:46,040 --> 00:02:52,639 Speaker 1: times we did upgraded business class, and I'm sorry, I'm 52 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:54,840 Speaker 1: not sorry about it. I mean it was it was 53 00:02:54,880 --> 00:02:58,080 Speaker 1: definitely a splurge. But I'll tell you, like I sat down, 54 00:02:59,080 --> 00:03:00,960 Speaker 1: you know, sat down in my chair. They like took 55 00:03:00,960 --> 00:03:04,359 Speaker 1: my code, they took my hat, and then the attendant 56 00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:07,640 Speaker 1: came right up to me and uttered words I thought 57 00:03:07,760 --> 00:03:10,160 Speaker 1: would never be uttered, a question to me that would 58 00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:12,160 Speaker 1: never be uttered on a flight, and he asked me, 59 00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:17,800 Speaker 1: are you comfortable, ma'am? Like what they never care if 60 00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:19,960 Speaker 1: you're comfortable on the plane. So that really was jarring, 61 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:24,520 Speaker 1: among other things. That's quite the juxtaposition to flying spirits, 62 00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:29,080 Speaker 1: right exactly, frontier, but hopefully, hopefully y'all can do some 63 00:03:29,480 --> 00:03:32,040 Speaker 1: Have you ever traveled to Scotland, because I'm thinking you 64 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:35,720 Speaker 1: could just combine your two loves right there. Yeah, Scotland 65 00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:37,320 Speaker 1: is is someplace I definitely want to go. As a 66 00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:40,880 Speaker 1: huge fan of Scotches, specifically the eye lay Scotches, I'm 67 00:03:40,920 --> 00:03:43,880 Speaker 1: all about that smoky smoky. Actually, do you have a 68 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:46,560 Speaker 1: favorite favorite Scotch? I mean, okay, so yes, I've been 69 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:49,520 Speaker 1: to Scotland. My one of my best friends was doing 70 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:53,520 Speaker 1: an art program, a graduate art program at the University 71 00:03:53,760 --> 00:03:56,600 Speaker 1: of Scotland or Glasgow, and so we went out there 72 00:03:56,680 --> 00:03:59,440 Speaker 1: and it was so miserably cold, but thankfully we had 73 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:04,600 Speaker 1: nice whiskey to to warm our bodies. Um, I mean 74 00:04:04,640 --> 00:04:06,600 Speaker 1: at the moment, what am I drinking at the moment? 75 00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:09,520 Speaker 1: You know, I've been taking it back to my American 76 00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:11,560 Speaker 1: roots at the moment and just kind of sipping on 77 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:16,080 Speaker 1: bourbon and appreciating bourbon classics, you know, Buffalo trace and 78 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:19,279 Speaker 1: oddly enough, Irish whiskey. Have you guys ever had red 79 00:04:19,279 --> 00:04:22,920 Speaker 1: Breast now have I? I've seen the bottle before. That 80 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:27,880 Speaker 1: whiskey is candy. It's amazing, It's so smooth, it's not 81 00:04:27,960 --> 00:04:31,840 Speaker 1: as smokey, but I think you know, there's not very 82 00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:34,120 Speaker 1: many Irish whiskey is on the market. There's, like, you know, 83 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:36,920 Speaker 1: Jamison is the most popular one, but Red Breast. If 84 00:04:36,960 --> 00:04:38,680 Speaker 1: you ever get an opportunity to see it on a 85 00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:42,000 Speaker 1: on a shelf at a bar, try it, and I'd 86 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:43,520 Speaker 1: love to know what you'll think about it. Give it 87 00:04:43,560 --> 00:04:45,480 Speaker 1: a give it a taste. I mean, if if it 88 00:04:45,560 --> 00:04:51,040 Speaker 1: drinks like candy, You've got me there. Uh Faco. Let's 89 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:53,440 Speaker 1: talk about money, because you've had an interesting career, you know, 90 00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:56,680 Speaker 1: within the personal finance space. I'm very curious though about 91 00:04:56,680 --> 00:04:59,039 Speaker 1: your first job as a debt collector as well. How 92 00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:02,240 Speaker 1: was that And I would like to know if there 93 00:05:02,240 --> 00:05:04,360 Speaker 1: are any lessons that you learned from doing that job. 94 00:05:04,760 --> 00:05:09,680 Speaker 1: So many lessons, Uh, I don't think. You know, when 95 00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:12,080 Speaker 1: you recall your memories, every time you recall them, they're 96 00:05:12,080 --> 00:05:14,320 Speaker 1: a little bit more corrupted. Let me just preface it 97 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:16,719 Speaker 1: with that. But when I think about when I applied 98 00:05:16,760 --> 00:05:19,520 Speaker 1: for this job when I was like twenty years old, 99 00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:22,760 Speaker 1: I think that it said credit manager and it didn't 100 00:05:22,800 --> 00:05:27,200 Speaker 1: say the words debt collector on it because I don't Yeah, 101 00:05:27,240 --> 00:05:28,640 Speaker 1: I don't think I would have been like, let me 102 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:32,599 Speaker 1: jump at the opportunity to call people and collect money 103 00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:35,880 Speaker 1: on behalf of a giant, evil bank. Like that doesn't 104 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:37,760 Speaker 1: seem like something that I would do. But I think 105 00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:41,599 Speaker 1: once I got into the job, actually before I even 106 00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:43,200 Speaker 1: got the job, it was like a cattle call. It 107 00:05:43,240 --> 00:05:45,400 Speaker 1: was like a casting call, like there was a line 108 00:05:45,400 --> 00:05:47,960 Speaker 1: at the door. Um, we all just sat down at 109 00:05:47,960 --> 00:05:50,720 Speaker 1: a table with somebody that worked there, and they did 110 00:05:50,760 --> 00:05:52,760 Speaker 1: this faux interview with us where they were like or 111 00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:55,800 Speaker 1: this faux collection call with us, like role playing. I 112 00:05:55,880 --> 00:05:58,479 Speaker 1: was horrible. I was terrible. The the woman on the 113 00:05:58,480 --> 00:06:00,720 Speaker 1: other side at the table just kept saying I can't pay, 114 00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:04,160 Speaker 1: and then I would just be like, well, okay, um, 115 00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:09,040 Speaker 1: sorry about that. Right. So I I don't know how 116 00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:12,680 Speaker 1: I even got past that initial interview phase, but I did. 117 00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:15,320 Speaker 1: And when I got into the job, I was like, okay, cool. 118 00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:17,839 Speaker 1: So for four hours a day, five days a week, 119 00:06:17,880 --> 00:06:20,160 Speaker 1: I come into this call center, put on a headset, 120 00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:22,799 Speaker 1: sit in front of a computer and ask people for money. 121 00:06:22,839 --> 00:06:26,120 Speaker 1: This is going to be at least interesting. So um. 122 00:06:26,279 --> 00:06:30,599 Speaker 1: I did that for two years and actually the summer 123 00:06:30,640 --> 00:06:33,800 Speaker 1: that I quit was right before the housing crash. It 124 00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:37,760 Speaker 1: was and Bank of America had just acquired countrywide, and 125 00:06:37,800 --> 00:06:40,880 Speaker 1: there was a certain night on the on the floor 126 00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:44,760 Speaker 1: at work where there was these accounts called J accounts, 127 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:47,159 Speaker 1: and we were not allowed to collect on those accounts 128 00:06:47,160 --> 00:06:50,200 Speaker 1: because everybody on my team and myself included, we were 129 00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:52,560 Speaker 1: just like kind of a baby collector, you know. We 130 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:55,200 Speaker 1: only collected on auto loans that were less than thirty 131 00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:58,120 Speaker 1: days past two, and it was mostly people traveling or 132 00:06:58,120 --> 00:07:00,919 Speaker 1: people who had just forgotten. It wasn't like hard core collections. 133 00:07:01,200 --> 00:07:04,200 Speaker 1: And they said, never ever, ever, ever, uh collect on 134 00:07:04,200 --> 00:07:06,359 Speaker 1: a J account because it might be in foreclosure and 135 00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:08,560 Speaker 1: if you collect on it, you know, those people might 136 00:07:08,560 --> 00:07:11,200 Speaker 1: not get their money back. And one night on the dialer, 137 00:07:11,360 --> 00:07:13,920 Speaker 1: the thing that's you know, dialing on our behalf, all 138 00:07:13,960 --> 00:07:16,840 Speaker 1: these J accounts kept popping up, and I kept saying, oops, 139 00:07:16,840 --> 00:07:18,920 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, we missdialed, and I would hang up. And 140 00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:21,600 Speaker 1: after about five of those calls, I looked around and 141 00:07:21,640 --> 00:07:23,920 Speaker 1: all my other coworkers were like, yeah, this J account 142 00:07:23,960 --> 00:07:26,440 Speaker 1: stuff keeps popping up. So we went to our our 143 00:07:26,520 --> 00:07:28,560 Speaker 1: our lead, and then the lead went to the VP 144 00:07:28,680 --> 00:07:31,280 Speaker 1: who was on call that evening, and they came out 145 00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:33,480 Speaker 1: and said, do the best you can. And so I 146 00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:37,920 Speaker 1: think that signifies, or that one little vignette shows you 147 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:42,080 Speaker 1: that when that housing crisis happened, literally the bank did 148 00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:44,600 Speaker 1: not have the infrastructure, and a lot of times the 149 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:46,520 Speaker 1: left hand didn't know what the right hand was doing 150 00:07:46,520 --> 00:07:48,840 Speaker 1: because it was just crumbling. You know, it was like 151 00:07:49,040 --> 00:07:52,440 Speaker 1: trying to hold water. It was not We were not equipped. 152 00:07:52,480 --> 00:07:56,280 Speaker 1: And thankfully, thankfully, thankfully, um, I didn't have to deal 153 00:07:56,320 --> 00:07:59,520 Speaker 1: with it in terms of being a collector during that time. 154 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:03,040 Speaker 1: I went and I had just graduated college in college 155 00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:05,640 Speaker 1: and I had another job. But I know I've been rambling, 156 00:08:05,640 --> 00:08:07,240 Speaker 1: But one other thing I want to say about the 157 00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:09,920 Speaker 1: debt collecting job, I did learn a lot. I learned 158 00:08:09,960 --> 00:08:13,200 Speaker 1: how to talk to any person about money, and I 159 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:17,280 Speaker 1: think that has what has been really um important for 160 00:08:17,320 --> 00:08:18,960 Speaker 1: me and like kind of set the tone for me 161 00:08:19,040 --> 00:08:21,720 Speaker 1: being able to do sales and be a financial planner 162 00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:24,560 Speaker 1: and and even do this kind of thing now. I think, 163 00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:26,680 Speaker 1: you know, we've all had a soul sucking job at 164 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:28,720 Speaker 1: one point or another in our lives. And I think 165 00:08:28,760 --> 00:08:31,560 Speaker 1: when you can take away a good skill, even from 166 00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:34,680 Speaker 1: a job that you look back on potentially even with horror, 167 00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:36,560 Speaker 1: I think that's a good thing, and so yeah, I 168 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:39,120 Speaker 1: love that that you have something positive to take away 169 00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:42,720 Speaker 1: from what sounds like a mostly negative experience. But while 170 00:08:42,760 --> 00:08:45,200 Speaker 1: we're going over your resume, Popo, I want to ask 171 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:48,240 Speaker 1: the last job you had before striking it out on 172 00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:50,880 Speaker 1: your own. You were working for a guy that started 173 00:08:50,920 --> 00:08:54,040 Speaker 1: his own marijuana business, right, and it sounds like that 174 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:57,199 Speaker 1: actually got your creative juices flowing. Can you tell us 175 00:08:57,240 --> 00:08:59,760 Speaker 1: maybe a little bit more about that gig? Yes, be 176 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:02,880 Speaker 1: for I move on to tell you about the marijuana consulting. 177 00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:05,280 Speaker 1: I want the record to state that I actually liked 178 00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:08,040 Speaker 1: the collection job. I liked everybody I worked with it, 179 00:09:09,880 --> 00:09:11,960 Speaker 1: and I was good at collecting, and I was nice 180 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:14,040 Speaker 1: and kind and I helped people and I felt like 181 00:09:14,120 --> 00:09:17,160 Speaker 1: I was making a difference, you know. So, Um, it 182 00:09:17,280 --> 00:09:19,920 Speaker 1: sounds crazy to think that somebody could enjoy a debt 183 00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:22,400 Speaker 1: collecting job, but I it was. It was fine for me. 184 00:09:22,480 --> 00:09:24,959 Speaker 1: I've had way wards jobs. Um. It is also a 185 00:09:25,040 --> 00:09:28,200 Speaker 1: necessary industry, and I think it unfairly gets a bad rap. 186 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:31,040 Speaker 1: There are because there's bad players. There are bad players, 187 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:33,440 Speaker 1: and those few bad apples can really make it sound 188 00:09:33,440 --> 00:09:35,719 Speaker 1: like everybody who is in the det collecting industry is 189 00:09:35,760 --> 00:09:38,439 Speaker 1: a terrible person. Thanks, guys. I mean I was the 190 00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:40,160 Speaker 1: same Poco, I just had a different job. So if 191 00:09:40,160 --> 00:09:43,679 Speaker 1: you can imagine, Hi, I'm Paco and like I want 192 00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:45,800 Speaker 1: to help you out here with your Toyota Tacoma. Okay. 193 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:49,680 Speaker 1: So I worked for this guy who was running this 194 00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:54,439 Speaker 1: online business, and what he was offering was writing and 195 00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:59,920 Speaker 1: creating business plans, including creating the financials um for people 196 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:02,240 Speaker 1: who wanted to set up a marijuana business in the 197 00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:05,240 Speaker 1: United States of America. And we would help people set 198 00:10:05,320 --> 00:10:10,680 Speaker 1: up grow operations, dispensaries, and delivery services. And there's one more, 199 00:10:11,120 --> 00:10:15,120 Speaker 1: I guess testing testing facilities that are that that's kind 200 00:10:15,120 --> 00:10:16,839 Speaker 1: of a new thing in the industry since it kind 201 00:10:16,840 --> 00:10:18,880 Speaker 1: of went legit. And so what we would do is 202 00:10:18,920 --> 00:10:21,240 Speaker 1: we would put the offering online. We would say we 203 00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:25,040 Speaker 1: can do this for you anywhere Colorado wherever it's legal Florida, 204 00:10:25,559 --> 00:10:27,520 Speaker 1: and then people would call us and we would try 205 00:10:27,559 --> 00:10:30,120 Speaker 1: to sell the service to them, and then if they 206 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:33,040 Speaker 1: would buy the service, we would get the money into 207 00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:35,120 Speaker 1: the account. Then I would have to call the city 208 00:10:35,160 --> 00:10:38,400 Speaker 1: and be like a high um city of Boulder, Colorado. 209 00:10:38,559 --> 00:10:40,240 Speaker 1: I have a client who's looking to open up a 210 00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:44,440 Speaker 1: grow operation at this location? Is this legal? Like we 211 00:10:44,440 --> 00:10:47,800 Speaker 1: would take people's money before we knew whether or not 212 00:10:47,840 --> 00:10:49,280 Speaker 1: we could help them, and if we could help them, 213 00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:51,840 Speaker 1: we would just keep going. And if we couldn't, oftentimes 214 00:10:51,880 --> 00:10:53,520 Speaker 1: we would either refund the money or say we need 215 00:10:53,559 --> 00:10:56,880 Speaker 1: to find another location. So this guy was not exactly 216 00:10:57,400 --> 00:11:00,480 Speaker 1: you know, it seems shady because it I think that's 217 00:11:00,480 --> 00:11:04,320 Speaker 1: a little bit shady, but you know, business is what 218 00:11:04,440 --> 00:11:07,400 Speaker 1: I learned from that guy is that, uh a lot 219 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:09,440 Speaker 1: of people are kind of making it up as they go, 220 00:11:09,640 --> 00:11:12,240 Speaker 1: Like we I don't need permission, Like I don't need 221 00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:16,920 Speaker 1: to be expert with twenty five years experience in order 222 00:11:16,960 --> 00:11:19,720 Speaker 1: to help people. I have a good amount of experience 223 00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:22,440 Speaker 1: working as a financial planner and having a finance degree 224 00:11:22,840 --> 00:11:26,959 Speaker 1: and just working in all these financial services industries in general. 225 00:11:27,040 --> 00:11:29,920 Speaker 1: That you know, even my advice of like you know, 226 00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:33,040 Speaker 1: save every you know, save a portion of everything you learned. 227 00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:35,600 Speaker 1: That's good advice, you know, And I'm not scamming people. 228 00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:38,240 Speaker 1: And anyways, so we did all that sort of stuff, 229 00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:40,880 Speaker 1: and uh yeah, I mean he he he was the 230 00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:44,960 Speaker 1: guy actually who he let me go. And as he 231 00:11:45,040 --> 00:11:48,559 Speaker 1: was letting me go, he goes promised me one thing. 232 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:50,840 Speaker 1: And I was like, why is this guy asking me 233 00:11:50,880 --> 00:11:54,000 Speaker 1: to promise him something as he's basically firing me, right, 234 00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:55,920 Speaker 1: I'm like, okay, what what do you what do you 235 00:11:55,920 --> 00:11:58,160 Speaker 1: want me to promise? And he goes, promised me that 236 00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:00,559 Speaker 1: you won't get like some stupid off his job. You're 237 00:12:00,559 --> 00:12:03,120 Speaker 1: too smart for that. And he goes, you'd be surprised 238 00:12:03,160 --> 00:12:06,679 Speaker 1: at how you rise to the occasion. And I was like, okay, dude, 239 00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:09,120 Speaker 1: like that's a weird, cryptic thing to say to somebody 240 00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:12,000 Speaker 1: as you're taking away their livelihood. But then you know, 241 00:12:12,040 --> 00:12:14,840 Speaker 1: I went on an unemployment which is basically, right, a 242 00:12:14,960 --> 00:12:18,280 Speaker 1: version of universal basic income, and I would sit quietly 243 00:12:18,280 --> 00:12:20,960 Speaker 1: every day and I would just wait to kind of 244 00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:24,000 Speaker 1: feel like, okay, what is my intuition going to say? 245 00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:26,920 Speaker 1: Or I just had space to kind of pause and 246 00:12:27,040 --> 00:12:30,800 Speaker 1: like craft a life that I didn't I didn't have 247 00:12:30,840 --> 00:12:33,960 Speaker 1: that space before. And so I thank him for firing me. 248 00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:36,440 Speaker 1: I thank him for making me make that promise, and 249 00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:40,600 Speaker 1: I thank the government for weeks of unemployment. And it 250 00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:43,400 Speaker 1: all happens for a reason. And you know, especially obviously 251 00:12:43,440 --> 00:12:45,360 Speaker 1: when you're doing that collecting, you didn't have any time 252 00:12:45,440 --> 00:12:47,440 Speaker 1: to I mean literally, you're sitting there in the dialer, 253 00:12:47,559 --> 00:12:50,120 Speaker 1: it automatically feeds you the next call. You literally didn't 254 00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:53,120 Speaker 1: have any time. But sometimes we do need to reflect, 255 00:12:53,120 --> 00:12:56,160 Speaker 1: and I think that's something that we is oftentimes missing 256 00:12:56,200 --> 00:12:59,080 Speaker 1: when it comes to us pursuing whatever our next job 257 00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:01,679 Speaker 1: or what career we want to advance. And sometimes it's 258 00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:04,320 Speaker 1: unemployment insurance and sometimes it's savings on hand that gives 259 00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:06,720 Speaker 1: us the ability to have that time, because if you don't, 260 00:13:06,920 --> 00:13:09,000 Speaker 1: you're forced to take the next job that comes along 261 00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:10,800 Speaker 1: in order to pay the bills that month. And that's 262 00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:14,600 Speaker 1: not the position you want to be in. Yeah, Park Specifically, 263 00:13:14,640 --> 00:13:16,520 Speaker 1: you're creative, right, and you say that folks who are 264 00:13:16,559 --> 00:13:20,040 Speaker 1: in the creative fields they're often underpaid, And so like, 265 00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:21,719 Speaker 1: what do you think it's a solution for folks you 266 00:13:21,760 --> 00:13:24,840 Speaker 1: know who have the strong creative side, but who oftentimes 267 00:13:24,880 --> 00:13:27,640 Speaker 1: have a difficult time just finding the ways to increase 268 00:13:27,679 --> 00:13:30,160 Speaker 1: their income. I mean, I think they really have to 269 00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:32,880 Speaker 1: do the hard work and kind of dig and understand 270 00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:37,440 Speaker 1: why they're undervaluing themselves. What is it that there? Do 271 00:13:37,520 --> 00:13:39,720 Speaker 1: they have a mental hang up? Do they think that 272 00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:43,520 Speaker 1: because the work comes easy, that they shouldn't be paid 273 00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:46,680 Speaker 1: a certain amount um? That's one thing I think a 274 00:13:46,679 --> 00:13:49,000 Speaker 1: lot of folks can do. The other thing is trying 275 00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:52,480 Speaker 1: to understand the end value that the person that you're 276 00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:55,880 Speaker 1: selling your product or service to gets and come at 277 00:13:55,920 --> 00:13:59,439 Speaker 1: your pricing from a value perspective and not how much 278 00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:02,079 Speaker 1: time does take me perspective or how much energy does 279 00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:04,280 Speaker 1: this require of me? And I think when you really 280 00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:06,800 Speaker 1: start to understand that, you understand that there's a lot 281 00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:11,000 Speaker 1: more flexibility in pricing. And two there's maybe a whole 282 00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:13,840 Speaker 1: demographic and market that you might be missing, you know 283 00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:15,400 Speaker 1: what I mean, Or you're not thinking about you're not 284 00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:18,320 Speaker 1: thinking about the people who really really value the thing 285 00:14:18,360 --> 00:14:21,120 Speaker 1: that you're providing. I think sometimes we think about it 286 00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:24,440 Speaker 1: like it's an hourly rate thing, and and if we do, 287 00:14:24,760 --> 00:14:28,160 Speaker 1: we're we're we're devaluing our services because it took a 288 00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:31,640 Speaker 1: lot of hours and in many cases decades to get 289 00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:33,400 Speaker 1: to the point where we're at with the skills that 290 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:36,000 Speaker 1: we have, with the knowledge that we have that it 291 00:14:36,040 --> 00:14:39,160 Speaker 1: goes beyond just uh, yeah, I've worked for fifty an 292 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:41,880 Speaker 1: hour or or whatever it is that you've kind of 293 00:14:41,880 --> 00:14:43,920 Speaker 1: set yourself up to be compensated for, which I'll say, 294 00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:46,280 Speaker 1: I feel like oftentimes comes from a point of view 295 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:49,480 Speaker 1: that is more entrenched than in the traditional like traditional 296 00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:51,800 Speaker 1: fields of work. Right, And so I'm specifically thinking of 297 00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:55,080 Speaker 1: a friend of ours and he gets paid hourly. He is, 298 00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:57,320 Speaker 1: you know, at the law school. He's a very smart guy, 299 00:14:57,600 --> 00:15:00,320 Speaker 1: and he jokes about He's like, man, my plumber makes 300 00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:02,920 Speaker 1: more per hour than I do. And it's like, well, dude, 301 00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:05,040 Speaker 1: you're you're totally looking at this from the wrong perspective 302 00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:06,760 Speaker 1: because he's looking at it, you know, by the hour, 303 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:10,280 Speaker 1: whereas that plumber is keeping you from having to dig 304 00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:14,640 Speaker 1: through your own crap, Like, so literally, what is that? Literally? 305 00:15:14,680 --> 00:15:17,000 Speaker 1: What is that worth to you? Uh? And then you 306 00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:18,960 Speaker 1: will see why does that plumbers are paid so much? 307 00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:21,480 Speaker 1: It just takes kind of shifting how you approach these 308 00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:23,600 Speaker 1: different problems, Like you said, well and and partly you 309 00:15:23,640 --> 00:15:26,000 Speaker 1: also you mentioned that we've got to we've got to 310 00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:28,800 Speaker 1: get better at selling ourselves. And so what else do 311 00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:31,360 Speaker 1: creatives need to consider when it comes to how they're 312 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:35,320 Speaker 1: pricing their services and kind of making themselves more appealing 313 00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:38,960 Speaker 1: in the market. I mean, definitely, we have to be 314 00:15:39,040 --> 00:15:42,440 Speaker 1: constantly communicating to our audience. I mean, I think building 315 00:15:42,480 --> 00:15:45,960 Speaker 1: an audience is a requirement for an artist and a 316 00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:50,120 Speaker 1: creative person, especially somebody who's self employed, who's independent, it 317 00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:53,560 Speaker 1: just seems like, really, if you don't build an audience, 318 00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:57,320 Speaker 1: then you're always trying to make sales. I'm not really 319 00:15:57,320 --> 00:16:01,160 Speaker 1: sure how right, Like you're relying maybe on earls UM 320 00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:02,960 Speaker 1: and I think that's great, But you have to think 321 00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:07,760 Speaker 1: about your sales funnel. Is how they get into their 322 00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:10,640 Speaker 1: how your potential clients get into your sales funnel. It's 323 00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:13,040 Speaker 1: a number of ways. It could be from an Instagram post, 324 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:16,400 Speaker 1: it could be from doing a podcast interview. It could 325 00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:19,040 Speaker 1: be from an article that you wrote. It could be 326 00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:20,800 Speaker 1: from a number of things. It could be from an 327 00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:22,920 Speaker 1: attorney that you work with often. And you guys have 328 00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:25,640 Speaker 1: the same kind of clients, and so thinking about how 329 00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:29,080 Speaker 1: you're reaching people um and thinking about all the different 330 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:32,080 Speaker 1: ways that you can reach them I think is really important. No, 331 00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:33,800 Speaker 1: I don't think that we all have to get on 332 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:35,560 Speaker 1: caup House and we all have to get on TikTok 333 00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:37,600 Speaker 1: and we all have to have a podcast. I don't 334 00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:39,080 Speaker 1: think we all need to do that. I think you 335 00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:42,160 Speaker 1: just need to find something that feels natural for you, 336 00:16:42,280 --> 00:16:45,280 Speaker 1: and it could be like a blog where it's basically 337 00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:48,240 Speaker 1: like a photojournal and you post, you know, photos that 338 00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:51,000 Speaker 1: are inspiring, or it could be an email newsletter, or 339 00:16:51,040 --> 00:16:53,480 Speaker 1: it could be you know, something you do like a 340 00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:55,760 Speaker 1: weekly live on Instagram or something like that. I do 341 00:16:55,840 --> 00:16:58,720 Speaker 1: think it's really important to be highly visible and to 342 00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:02,880 Speaker 1: communicate to your audio if you are, you know, actively 343 00:17:02,920 --> 00:17:05,600 Speaker 1: saying I'm going to participate in commerce in this way. 344 00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:07,520 Speaker 1: But of course there are outliers. I think if you're 345 00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:12,400 Speaker 1: a fine artist and you know you are selling high 346 00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:16,000 Speaker 1: end art, that's not necessarily you know, commerce kind of 347 00:17:16,040 --> 00:17:17,960 Speaker 1: on the nose. I think you can get away with 348 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:21,600 Speaker 1: being mysterious and weird, and you can find ways that 349 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:24,000 Speaker 1: you can build an audience that's, you know, more authentic 350 00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:26,119 Speaker 1: to you. So you don't necessarily have to dance on 351 00:17:26,119 --> 00:17:28,480 Speaker 1: TikTok if you're selling those like hundred thousand dollar paintings. 352 00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:32,680 Speaker 1: Would you can if you want to market some of 353 00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:35,119 Speaker 1: your artwork. That's one of the things I appreciate you 354 00:17:35,119 --> 00:17:36,440 Speaker 1: saying that, because that's one of the things that we've 355 00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:39,160 Speaker 1: actively kind of avoided. And we know ourselves and it's 356 00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:41,439 Speaker 1: not that we probably couldn't build some sort of a 357 00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:43,680 Speaker 1: TikTok audience, but it's not We're not naturally inclined to 358 00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:45,240 Speaker 1: do that. Folks would show up for the train wreck 359 00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:48,560 Speaker 1: like they people get hurt. Yeah, it would be like 360 00:17:48,560 --> 00:17:51,640 Speaker 1: hashta TikTok fails like on the rag. And so it's 361 00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:53,560 Speaker 1: one of those things where I think sometimes people feel 362 00:17:53,760 --> 00:17:57,040 Speaker 1: like they have to be present in every form where 363 00:17:57,040 --> 00:17:59,920 Speaker 1: people are consuming. Uh. And and if that's the case, 364 00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:03,040 Speaker 1: you're probably gonna be not very great on most of 365 00:18:03,040 --> 00:18:05,560 Speaker 1: those forms. And I think, um, yeah, picking one or 366 00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:07,760 Speaker 1: two where you can specialize and be really good, it's 367 00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:10,360 Speaker 1: probably better than spreading yourself too thin and being on 368 00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:13,720 Speaker 1: has like all of the above right that that you 369 00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:16,679 Speaker 1: can join. Um, But Paco, We've got more that we 370 00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:18,720 Speaker 1: want to get to with you in this conversation. We 371 00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:20,800 Speaker 1: want to talk about emotions and money, and we want 372 00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:23,920 Speaker 1: to talk about unearthing some of our personal finance baggage. 373 00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:26,359 Speaker 1: We'll get to some of those questions right after this break. 374 00:18:35,800 --> 00:18:37,480 Speaker 1: All right, we're back from the break and we're talking 375 00:18:37,520 --> 00:18:39,920 Speaker 1: with Paco daily On about you know, we just talked 376 00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:43,000 Speaker 1: about freelancing specifically and kind of basically how to set 377 00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:46,200 Speaker 1: yourself apart and regardless, uh, you know, if you're talking 378 00:18:46,240 --> 00:18:50,280 Speaker 1: about your personal finances regardless if you're talking more about 379 00:18:50,320 --> 00:18:52,560 Speaker 1: your you know, kind of your business finances. There are 380 00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:54,840 Speaker 1: a number of things that can keep us from achieving 381 00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:57,639 Speaker 1: what we're looking to achieve with our money. And you know, 382 00:18:57,680 --> 00:19:00,160 Speaker 1: one of the main topics in your new books knows 383 00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:03,720 Speaker 1: around emotions and feelings. Because our emotions that you know, 384 00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:06,680 Speaker 1: they tell us that we're not worth more. That can 385 00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:09,159 Speaker 1: play into the reality, you know, and then we end 386 00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:11,040 Speaker 1: up setting our rates too low. Basically, it's sort of 387 00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:14,919 Speaker 1: like we manifest something into existence. Um. And you know, 388 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:17,520 Speaker 1: you say that dealing with your feelings is an essential 389 00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:20,800 Speaker 1: piece of dealing with your finances. I totally agree, but 390 00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:23,600 Speaker 1: I feel like that this is something that's easier actually 391 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:26,359 Speaker 1: said than done. It's so much easier said than done. 392 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:30,320 Speaker 1: It's so much more challenging to be the person who 393 00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:33,760 Speaker 1: has to sit there and face some of those really 394 00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:37,520 Speaker 1: negative feelings like shame or guilt or you know, a 395 00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:43,120 Speaker 1: lack of worth. And I want society too. I wanted 396 00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:45,880 Speaker 1: to be more normal in society to sit with these 397 00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:48,840 Speaker 1: negative feelings and to admit that we all have them, 398 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:52,200 Speaker 1: and to help each other with tools that have worked 399 00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:54,639 Speaker 1: for us to kind of get through them. You know 400 00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:57,120 Speaker 1: what I mean, instead of just trying to ignore it 401 00:19:57,320 --> 00:20:00,119 Speaker 1: or what I really what really frustrates me is like 402 00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:03,520 Speaker 1: the positive stuff. You know, just be positive, think positive. 403 00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:06,159 Speaker 1: You know, that doesn't work if you're feeling really broken, 404 00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:10,040 Speaker 1: if you're feeling really wounded because you've internalized, you know 405 00:20:10,119 --> 00:20:12,880 Speaker 1: a lot of things like the wage gap, or you've 406 00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:17,359 Speaker 1: internalized this lack of worthiness because of you know what, society, 407 00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:21,120 Speaker 1: the messages you get from society. You can't just magically 408 00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:24,639 Speaker 1: love yourself. You can't just magically think positive. You really 409 00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:27,119 Speaker 1: have to just kind of sit with your feelings and 410 00:20:27,119 --> 00:20:29,639 Speaker 1: and find what works for you. So you could do 411 00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:33,240 Speaker 1: talk therapy, you can do journaling, you can hire a coach, 412 00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:35,480 Speaker 1: you can do all of the above. I think there's 413 00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:37,600 Speaker 1: a lot of different ways to kind of get at 414 00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:42,160 Speaker 1: the root of some of these negative thoughts and negative 415 00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:45,600 Speaker 1: ideas and cognitive biases that are dictating how we behave 416 00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:48,359 Speaker 1: with our money. Yeah, yeah, I think you're right. I 417 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:51,720 Speaker 1: think if we don't face those emotions, if we don't 418 00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:54,040 Speaker 1: deal with our feelings, if we sweep them under the rug, 419 00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:55,720 Speaker 1: that we can't grow. If you just like put on 420 00:20:55,800 --> 00:20:58,320 Speaker 1: a bright and Chinese face, that doesn't fix what's going 421 00:20:58,359 --> 00:21:01,800 Speaker 1: on underneath, and we can't than address like the root 422 00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:03,919 Speaker 1: problems that we're facing with our money that have to 423 00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:06,760 Speaker 1: do with our history, with how we feel about ourselves 424 00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:09,639 Speaker 1: and those things were holistic people and and even our 425 00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:12,760 Speaker 1: personal finances kind of need to be taken into into that. 426 00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:16,320 Speaker 1: Like we can't just pretend that they're separate entities. Absolutely 427 00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:19,159 Speaker 1: everything is interconnected. Yeah, And you know this makes me 428 00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:21,359 Speaker 1: think about earlier to you're you're talking about how like 429 00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:23,520 Speaker 1: when you're talking about the guy you're working for with 430 00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:27,960 Speaker 1: the marijuana you know, marketing full services company that y'all 431 00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:30,119 Speaker 1: had going on, and how so much of business is 432 00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:32,200 Speaker 1: when I pictured you didn't say this, but like you're 433 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:35,280 Speaker 1: faking it till you make it right. Um. And you 434 00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:38,080 Speaker 1: can do that maybe with a service like that where 435 00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:40,600 Speaker 1: you're essentially you know, you're figuring it out on the fly, 436 00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:43,600 Speaker 1: but it is hard to do that when it comes 437 00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:45,960 Speaker 1: to how you feel about your your own personal finances, 438 00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:47,600 Speaker 1: how you feel about your own money, because you can't 439 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:49,720 Speaker 1: fool yourself. There are certain things that you can put 440 00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:52,120 Speaker 1: out there for clients where you can say I will 441 00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:55,000 Speaker 1: do X, I don't know what's going to happen after that. 442 00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:57,280 Speaker 1: We'll cross that bridge when we get to it. But 443 00:21:57,320 --> 00:21:59,000 Speaker 1: you can say certain things that you can deliver on 444 00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:00,720 Speaker 1: because you know that you will do those things. But 445 00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:03,760 Speaker 1: when it comes to yourself, it's really hard to fool yourself. 446 00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:06,159 Speaker 1: I mean, because we we know our minds that you know, 447 00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:08,880 Speaker 1: like you know how it is you feel about something, uh, 448 00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:11,240 Speaker 1: and so like you said, it's difficult just to put 449 00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:13,119 Speaker 1: on a you know, a smiley face. I want to 450 00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:14,640 Speaker 1: I want to hear Pacco's thoughts on this. I think 451 00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:17,080 Speaker 1: Paco part of the problem is it's not necessarily that 452 00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:19,200 Speaker 1: people don't know the right information, although I think there 453 00:22:19,320 --> 00:22:21,560 Speaker 1: is a lack of personal finance knowledge in our culture, 454 00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:24,040 Speaker 1: but it is a lot of times it's that emotional 455 00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:28,440 Speaker 1: hang up that leads us back to behaviors that are debilitating, 456 00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:31,400 Speaker 1: where we're actively harming ourselves when it comes to making 457 00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:33,639 Speaker 1: progress with money, and that's what needs to be overcome. 458 00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:36,720 Speaker 1: It's not that you don't understand that basic concept that 459 00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:39,080 Speaker 1: you need to be uh saving a portion of what 460 00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:41,919 Speaker 1: you're bringing in, or that credit card debt is bad. 461 00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:45,040 Speaker 1: Like people for the most part understand that, UM, and 462 00:22:45,119 --> 00:22:47,240 Speaker 1: we are dealing with I think a lot of people 463 00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:49,800 Speaker 1: who who are you know, and we're gonna talk about 464 00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:52,440 Speaker 1: this in a minute, living in a consumeristic culture trying 465 00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:55,480 Speaker 1: to navigate these waters, and they're dealing with a lot 466 00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:59,000 Speaker 1: of stuff going on underneath the surface. That's absolutely correct. 467 00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:02,760 Speaker 1: I mean I kind of arrived at this conclusion or 468 00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:05,879 Speaker 1: actually what forced me to kind of dig beneath just 469 00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:10,120 Speaker 1: the topical, very practical stuff when it came to all 470 00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:13,040 Speaker 1: of this was I just kept seeing really smart, capable people, 471 00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:16,399 Speaker 1: often who were earning enough, who had a surplus, but 472 00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:18,800 Speaker 1: they were doing just like things that were clearly not 473 00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:22,119 Speaker 1: in their best interest. And my perspective was like, I 474 00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:24,200 Speaker 1: don't know, I don't think shaming and guilty them is 475 00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:26,440 Speaker 1: going to work. Maybe let's try to figure out what's 476 00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:30,000 Speaker 1: going on and dig deeper. And you know, oftentimes there 477 00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:33,040 Speaker 1: is some other story, you know, something they picked up 478 00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:37,480 Speaker 1: through their grandparents or their parents or the media, and 479 00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:40,119 Speaker 1: so they have this this narrative going on, this belief 480 00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:43,040 Speaker 1: that they're playing on loop, and that's influencing their behavior. 481 00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:45,840 Speaker 1: And kind of the analogy that I like to use, 482 00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:48,879 Speaker 1: or the metaphor rather is like the things that have 483 00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:52,879 Speaker 1: happened to you, they they are like a hand. You know, 484 00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:55,639 Speaker 1: they're reaching through space and time and they're holding you 485 00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:58,719 Speaker 1: back or they're pushing you forward, but they're dictating some 486 00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:01,960 Speaker 1: of the things that you're doing presently today. And until 487 00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:05,360 Speaker 1: you kind of pause and look at at what's going on, 488 00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:08,960 Speaker 1: you'll just be you'll continue to be a victim to that, 489 00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:12,160 Speaker 1: to that hand from the past. Yeah. I think one 490 00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:13,639 Speaker 1: of the other things I liked about your book was 491 00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:18,800 Speaker 1: that you kind of used like wisdom literature from various 492 00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:22,360 Speaker 1: various different places and times, and you even you even 493 00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:26,159 Speaker 1: got like infuse some Carl Jung into your book, and 494 00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:29,040 Speaker 1: you you detail the impact that our shadow selves have 495 00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:32,280 Speaker 1: on us and like which you basically you're saying that 496 00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:34,520 Speaker 1: we have to reckon with our subconscious beliefs. That's what 497 00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:37,520 Speaker 1: that the shadows self is that's holding us back. So so, 498 00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:39,560 Speaker 1: like let's say somebody you mentioned that you could do 499 00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:41,680 Speaker 1: talk therapy. There these different methods where you can go 500 00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:43,840 Speaker 1: to kind of address some of those things. Um, yeah, 501 00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:45,959 Speaker 1: do you have any for somebody who's like, listen, I'm 502 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:47,399 Speaker 1: not going to spend the money or I'm averse to 503 00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:49,919 Speaker 1: talking to somebody, which Matt and I are not. And actually, 504 00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:51,520 Speaker 1: you know a couple of weeks ago, we had on 505 00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:53,960 Speaker 1: a financial therapist on the show. We think that that's 506 00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:56,040 Speaker 1: like an important role. But but if someone wants to 507 00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:58,200 Speaker 1: kind of go it alone or start to think through 508 00:24:58,240 --> 00:24:59,600 Speaker 1: some of these things, like how do you suggest they 509 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:03,119 Speaker 1: get star it in? Well, what worked for me, and 510 00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:04,680 Speaker 1: I don't know if this is going to work for everyone, 511 00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:06,400 Speaker 1: but this is what worked for me. The first thing 512 00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:08,360 Speaker 1: that I needed to do before I could even address 513 00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:11,639 Speaker 1: talk therapy was I started meditating. So I would just 514 00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:13,960 Speaker 1: put a cushion down and PLoP down on this cushion 515 00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:17,480 Speaker 1: and it was kind of a freestyle for a few years. UM. 516 00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:19,680 Speaker 1: I didn't have a teacher. I just, you know, would 517 00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:21,840 Speaker 1: pull up some YouTube videos or set a timer and 518 00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:24,119 Speaker 1: I my goal was to sit there for twenty minutes. 519 00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:26,959 Speaker 1: And sometimes I felt like, oh my gosh, I'm killing it. 520 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:30,240 Speaker 1: I'm awesome at meditating, and other times I would think, 521 00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:33,800 Speaker 1: oh my gosh, that's that was absolute trash. For twenty minutes, 522 00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:36,760 Speaker 1: I just was concerned about answering an email, but that's 523 00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:39,920 Speaker 1: part of the practice. UM and I think it's important 524 00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:43,520 Speaker 1: too for people to just sit and allow themselves to 525 00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:45,639 Speaker 1: have a quiet space. Because we were living in a 526 00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:49,200 Speaker 1: time where you have so many things competing for your attention, 527 00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:53,840 Speaker 1: your focus is fractured, you know, like and because of that, 528 00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:57,200 Speaker 1: you don't listen to yourself. You don't have your own 529 00:25:57,320 --> 00:26:00,840 Speaker 1: inner intuition, that voice. You can't really hear it unless 530 00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:03,760 Speaker 1: you sit down and and and allow yourself to have 531 00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:06,240 Speaker 1: the time in the space for quiet. And I think 532 00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:09,040 Speaker 1: once you start to do that, what you start to 533 00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:12,520 Speaker 1: realize is you don't have to completely identify with every 534 00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:14,240 Speaker 1: thought you think. You can have a thought and it 535 00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:17,520 Speaker 1: can just be a thought. And once you realize that, 536 00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:19,879 Speaker 1: then when you have the thought I'm not worthy, or 537 00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:22,520 Speaker 1: you have the thought like people like me just don't 538 00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:24,119 Speaker 1: make up make a lot of money, or you have 539 00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:26,399 Speaker 1: the thought like, oh you have to really struggle to 540 00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:28,199 Speaker 1: make a lot of money, you can start to just 541 00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:31,360 Speaker 1: realize that you don't have to identify with those thoughts. 542 00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:34,520 Speaker 1: And I think that's the very very very first step. 543 00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:38,560 Speaker 1: And from there, yeah, once you're comfortable kind of sitting 544 00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:43,359 Speaker 1: and feeling uncomfortable, really, because meditation isn't just about sitting 545 00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:47,479 Speaker 1: there and feeling uncomfortable like sad or angry or whatever. 546 00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:49,359 Speaker 1: It's also like I want to scratch my nose. I 547 00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:51,600 Speaker 1: want to check my phone. It's you know what I mean, 548 00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:53,240 Speaker 1: Like it's I want to look at my email, I 549 00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:55,000 Speaker 1: want to look at Instagram. So you get used to 550 00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:58,160 Speaker 1: this discomfort, and then I think folks who may have 551 00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:02,119 Speaker 1: been challenged or afraid aid of therapy talk therapy, I 552 00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:04,920 Speaker 1: think that you know, once they get used to being uncomfortable, 553 00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:08,320 Speaker 1: talk therapy is often the next thing that one can 554 00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:11,879 Speaker 1: can can apply. Yeah, we have to get comfortable with 555 00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:15,600 Speaker 1: our own thoughts, with our own selves, and so we're 556 00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:16,680 Speaker 1: not just going to stay in the realm of the 557 00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:19,639 Speaker 1: esoteric here, We're gonna get a little more I guess 558 00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:22,439 Speaker 1: nuts and bolsy with it. Generally speaking, Like a lot 559 00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:24,240 Speaker 1: of folks will talk about how where the where the 560 00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:27,479 Speaker 1: sum of our habits, we completely agree with that's right. 561 00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:29,480 Speaker 1: It comes down to not what we actually just think. 562 00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:32,080 Speaker 1: It comes down to what we actually do as well. Um. 563 00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:35,240 Speaker 1: In your book, you discuss the five essential financial habits 564 00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:37,560 Speaker 1: that we all need to need to develop in order 565 00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:39,520 Speaker 1: to be successful with our money. Can you share with 566 00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:43,400 Speaker 1: those five different habits are with our listeners? Yeah? Absolutely. Um. 567 00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:46,159 Speaker 1: The very first thing that I recommend everybody do is 568 00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:49,840 Speaker 1: develop a weekly finance time habit, and it's exactly what 569 00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:52,840 Speaker 1: it sounds like. It's anywhere between twenty minutes to an 570 00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:55,639 Speaker 1: hour that you block off as like a standing meeting 571 00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:59,600 Speaker 1: with yourself, um, and you start to address your finances. 572 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:02,119 Speaker 1: And for folks who are just starting out, which I 573 00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:04,280 Speaker 1: think your listeners are probably a little bit more advanced, 574 00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:06,040 Speaker 1: But for for the folks who are just starting out, 575 00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:09,520 Speaker 1: that could be as simply as like get like wrangling 576 00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:12,600 Speaker 1: your loggins. There are so many people who I've heard 577 00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:15,800 Speaker 1: they don't want to there. You know, they can't even 578 00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:18,480 Speaker 1: look at their financial data because they don't even know, 579 00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:20,560 Speaker 1: you know, what their loggins are. So that could be 580 00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:22,080 Speaker 1: the first thing that you do during the first week, 581 00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:23,720 Speaker 1: like literally, I can't I can't find it. I don't 582 00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:28,160 Speaker 1: I can't see it exactly I mean. And then wait 583 00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:30,879 Speaker 1: and then get the email and yeah, that's a whole meltdown, 584 00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:34,080 Speaker 1: you know what I mean, m e I I you know, 585 00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:37,160 Speaker 1: So start slow and with weekly finance time. Think about 586 00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:38,800 Speaker 1: it like, you know, if you haven't been going to 587 00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:40,720 Speaker 1: the gym for a long time, think about your weekly 588 00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:43,160 Speaker 1: finance time is going to the gym. Sorry to use 589 00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:45,440 Speaker 1: the workout analogy, but I'm not asking you to like 590 00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:47,720 Speaker 1: get on the treadmill and run twenty six point two 591 00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:50,400 Speaker 1: miles or squat your own body weight, or touch your 592 00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:53,560 Speaker 1: toes even just like you know, the first weekly finance time, 593 00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:55,640 Speaker 1: the first few times, just go to the gym and 594 00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:58,040 Speaker 1: look around. You know, it's just like who who's here? 595 00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:00,360 Speaker 1: What's it like? What does it smell like? Or you know, 596 00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:04,360 Speaker 1: like just get used to arriving and and being there. 597 00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:07,640 Speaker 1: And you know, just as if you dedicate and you're 598 00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:11,520 Speaker 1: really consistent, you know, eventually you're gonna start learning about 599 00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:13,480 Speaker 1: how to roll over your four one K. You're gonna 600 00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:15,880 Speaker 1: start learning about index funds, You're gonna start learning about 601 00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:18,360 Speaker 1: how to pay off your your debt um with the pain, 602 00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:20,720 Speaker 1: you know, with a with a debt payoff plan um. 603 00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:22,440 Speaker 1: And of course, shameless plug, what can you do during 604 00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:26,440 Speaker 1: weekly finance time? You can read finance for the people. Um. 605 00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:30,240 Speaker 1: The second habit is I'm a big fan of separating 606 00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:35,160 Speaker 1: your discretionary expenses. So anything that's non essential, I like 607 00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:38,239 Speaker 1: to give myself a little allowance each month about you know, 608 00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:40,680 Speaker 1: for what I'm gonna how much I can spend on 609 00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:42,960 Speaker 1: non essentials, and I keep it in its own checking 610 00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:46,400 Speaker 1: account that way I don't accidentally spend money I'm not 611 00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:50,160 Speaker 1: supposed to spend um And yes, even I do this, 612 00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:54,800 Speaker 1: I am not above needing bumpers like I A big 613 00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:57,920 Speaker 1: part of this is protecting yourself from yourself, um and 614 00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:00,720 Speaker 1: knowing your limitations right and knowing you might be a 615 00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:04,760 Speaker 1: victim to like Instagram ads, and just having your your 616 00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:10,680 Speaker 1: discretionary expenses separate. It's just one way to ensure success. Um. Well. 617 00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:12,479 Speaker 1: And and and one of the reasons you outline this is, 618 00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:15,160 Speaker 1: I mean you coined this Paco's law, right, which is 619 00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:17,280 Speaker 1: if I remember right, like you're talking about how if 620 00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:20,160 Speaker 1: there's available money, we're going to spend it, like it 621 00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:23,720 Speaker 1: bleeds over into all different types of spending. Uh. And 622 00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:25,480 Speaker 1: so I think that's a part of how we keep 623 00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:28,440 Speaker 1: ourselves from being our own worst enemy, right absolutely. Yeah. 624 00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:30,560 Speaker 1: And you know that's not a disrespect to who we are. 625 00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:33,040 Speaker 1: It's like our brains are great, but you know there's 626 00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:35,240 Speaker 1: a lot going on in there that you know, we 627 00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:37,240 Speaker 1: we are not fully aware of, especially when it comes 628 00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:41,479 Speaker 1: to being victims to advertising and you know, scrolling endlessly 629 00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:46,280 Speaker 1: and things like that. So, um, yes, definitely that's separating 630 00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:48,080 Speaker 1: your spending is a way to not become a victim 631 00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:51,920 Speaker 1: of Paco's law. The third habit is to you know, 632 00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:54,040 Speaker 1: set aside time to think about how you think about 633 00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:56,840 Speaker 1: money and also come up with processes for how you 634 00:30:56,880 --> 00:30:59,280 Speaker 1: make financial decisions. And one of the things in the 635 00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:02,120 Speaker 1: book that I out line is like calming your nervous 636 00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:05,480 Speaker 1: system before you make a big financial decision, or calming 637 00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:08,040 Speaker 1: your nervous system before you know you're going into a 638 00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:11,440 Speaker 1: negotiation or you're collecting on a debt. You know, anything 639 00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:14,560 Speaker 1: that's gonna make you feel uncomfortable and nervous or you 640 00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:16,920 Speaker 1: feel like you might choke, you know, when it comes 641 00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:20,640 Speaker 1: to you navigating a conversation with money, do what you 642 00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:22,600 Speaker 1: need to do. For some people that's like taking five 643 00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:25,800 Speaker 1: deep breaths. For other people, it's like you know, listening 644 00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:27,920 Speaker 1: to Lizzo very loudly, which is what I which is 645 00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:31,680 Speaker 1: what I do. UM, But just like know yourself, know 646 00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:33,360 Speaker 1: what you need to do so that when you go 647 00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:36,920 Speaker 1: into making financial decisions, you know, asking for a lower 648 00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:41,480 Speaker 1: interest rate, negotiating your pay, you've prepared for that. UM. 649 00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:44,560 Speaker 1: The fourth one is to save and or invest a 650 00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:47,320 Speaker 1: portion of you know, everything you learn, every dollar you learn, 651 00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:50,480 Speaker 1: you should be putting some of that aside for freelancers, 652 00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:52,040 Speaker 1: of course, you should be putting some of that aside 653 00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:54,920 Speaker 1: for taxes um and then when you pay yourself, I mean, 654 00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:58,120 Speaker 1: every time you earn money, invest some of it or 655 00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:01,840 Speaker 1: save some of it. And even if you can't afford 656 00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:03,720 Speaker 1: to do a lot right now, a lot is a 657 00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:06,360 Speaker 1: relative term. I think the important thing is to build 658 00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:08,400 Speaker 1: the habit and get used to it, and then just 659 00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:11,800 Speaker 1: ratchet it up as your income goes up. To the 660 00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:14,360 Speaker 1: last habit is just to appreciate what you have. I 661 00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:17,360 Speaker 1: know it sounds corny to have a gratitude practice, but 662 00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:21,000 Speaker 1: you know, the science behind it is very clear and 663 00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:24,760 Speaker 1: obvious that having a gratitude practices overall good for your 664 00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:28,040 Speaker 1: mental health and well being. And you know, I think 665 00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:30,480 Speaker 1: a lot of us, especially in modern society, are suffering 666 00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:33,320 Speaker 1: from this kind of idea that when I get this thing, 667 00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:36,560 Speaker 1: or when I accumulate this much, or when I get 668 00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:38,800 Speaker 1: to from A to B, then I will feel happy. 669 00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:41,760 Speaker 1: But I think the real lesson that we all have 670 00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:44,239 Speaker 1: to learn is that we only have this moment right now, 671 00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:48,120 Speaker 1: and we have to appreciate what's right in front of us. Yeah, yeah, 672 00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:51,400 Speaker 1: I agree, And I think that being being thankful for 673 00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:54,120 Speaker 1: what we have and and and and making that a habit. 674 00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:56,000 Speaker 1: I love that too, that you kind of suggest that, 675 00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:57,960 Speaker 1: because it's one of those things where it's like, yeah, 676 00:32:58,000 --> 00:32:59,720 Speaker 1: you might every once in a while remark that, like 677 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:01,720 Speaker 1: we've got it better than other people. But if it 678 00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:04,000 Speaker 1: is this regular practice where you have a daily time 679 00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:06,800 Speaker 1: or a weekly time where you practice gratitude, where you 680 00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:10,200 Speaker 1: talk to your partner or to your kids about what 681 00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:12,520 Speaker 1: indeed you have to be thankful for, naming, calling out 682 00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:15,680 Speaker 1: the specifics, like that changes your brain, That changes the 683 00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:18,239 Speaker 1: way you perceive the things that you have. And at 684 00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:20,880 Speaker 1: one point in the book Pocket you say, we've been 685 00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:24,560 Speaker 1: groomed to consume, and so yeah, we we obviously live 686 00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:28,840 Speaker 1: in a consumeristic culture that is pushing us towards more, better, 687 00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:31,720 Speaker 1: the next thing. And so yeah, but besides just that 688 00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:34,840 Speaker 1: practice of gratitude, you have any other thoughts about what 689 00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:36,480 Speaker 1: it looks like to live in this culture but not 690 00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:41,000 Speaker 1: necessarily be sold out to it. I mean, the thing 691 00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:45,400 Speaker 1: that's so glaringly obvious to me is we're constantly getting 692 00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:47,840 Speaker 1: these marketing messages that say you're not enough, and in 693 00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:50,400 Speaker 1: order to be enough or in order to belong you 694 00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:52,800 Speaker 1: have to like buy these razors or drink this drink. 695 00:33:52,920 --> 00:34:01,760 Speaker 1: You know, so I think understand exactly smooth and whiskey 696 00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:06,160 Speaker 1: light candy. Uh. I think just knowing that that's what 697 00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:08,520 Speaker 1: we're up against, right, there's this part in our brain 698 00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:11,719 Speaker 1: that the marketing messages are kind of trying to like 699 00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:14,759 Speaker 1: poke at and make you buy. That's going to be 700 00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:18,120 Speaker 1: your first line of defense is just knowing. Um. I 701 00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:20,840 Speaker 1: have this little thing I do called a by list, 702 00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:24,640 Speaker 1: and so I use this platform called Notion, which is 703 00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:28,600 Speaker 1: just kind of like a fancier Google doc, like you 704 00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:31,200 Speaker 1: can put emojis and organize it in a in a 705 00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:34,959 Speaker 1: nice way. It's just a database that's I use. And 706 00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:38,800 Speaker 1: I every time I get this ping to buy something 707 00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:41,240 Speaker 1: that I don't need, you know, like a cool beanie 708 00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:43,640 Speaker 1: or like a eighty five dollar sweatshirt that I know 709 00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:45,080 Speaker 1: I'm not gonna buy, but I kind of want to 710 00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:49,279 Speaker 1: buy it. Um, anytime it feels compulsive, I will open 711 00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:51,000 Speaker 1: up my by list and I'll put it on the list, 712 00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:52,839 Speaker 1: and then I have rules about the list the list. 713 00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:55,320 Speaker 1: The rule is like I have to wait at least 714 00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:57,319 Speaker 1: a week before I buy it to know that I 715 00:34:57,360 --> 00:35:01,120 Speaker 1: really want it. And what I've realized is like of 716 00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:04,200 Speaker 1: the time, just putting it on the list will give 717 00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:07,160 Speaker 1: me that dopamine rush, right, It'll it'll feel like shopping, 718 00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:10,080 Speaker 1: because I kind of am shopping. Like I'm I'm making 719 00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:13,279 Speaker 1: the list cute, and I'm organizing the list, and I 720 00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:16,920 Speaker 1: like use labels like this is for hobbies, this is 721 00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:20,239 Speaker 1: for clothing, this is for household And then you know, 722 00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:22,600 Speaker 1: like a week later, I'll go on to put another 723 00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:24,000 Speaker 1: thing on the list and I'm like, oh, yeah, I 724 00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:26,040 Speaker 1: forgot about that hoodie. No I don't want it, and 725 00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:28,040 Speaker 1: I'll take it off the list, you know. So I 726 00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:30,720 Speaker 1: think that's another little hack that people can do. Um 727 00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:33,520 Speaker 1: And it's a way to be like on the hedonic treadmill, 728 00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:37,040 Speaker 1: you know, but not to have your wallet pay pay 729 00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:40,840 Speaker 1: the price. It's it's a good way for us to 730 00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:43,920 Speaker 1: keep that that spending and check pocket. This is awesome. 731 00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:45,840 Speaker 1: We've got more that we want to get too. Specifically, 732 00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:48,239 Speaker 1: we want to we want to talk about debts UH 733 00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:50,640 Speaker 1: and the different impacts that it can have on us. 734 00:35:50,719 --> 00:36:01,840 Speaker 1: We're gonna get to that right after this break. All right, 735 00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:03,960 Speaker 1: we're back in the break. We're still talking with Paco 736 00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:07,240 Speaker 1: de Leone when talking about her her new book, Finance 737 00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:10,239 Speaker 1: for the People, and just so much good wisdom in 738 00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:12,840 Speaker 1: that book, And Paco, I think one of my favorite 739 00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:15,000 Speaker 1: parts of the book is and you just mentioned it 740 00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:17,080 Speaker 1: before the breaks as one of the habits is you 741 00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:20,120 Speaker 1: need to think about how you think about financial decisions. 742 00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:23,120 Speaker 1: And I think so often, especially in the realm of 743 00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:26,239 Speaker 1: personal finance, we're often told what to do. We might 744 00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:27,920 Speaker 1: even be told how to do it all. That was 745 00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:29,440 Speaker 1: one of my pet peeves as a kid is you're 746 00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:31,879 Speaker 1: told what to do, but you're never told why or how, 747 00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:36,160 Speaker 1: and so um, yeah, I think thinking about how we 748 00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:39,480 Speaker 1: go about doing that that is an important part of 749 00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:41,840 Speaker 1: the journey, kind of connecting the dots together so that 750 00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:44,919 Speaker 1: we fully understand, you know, the complex reality of what's 751 00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:46,600 Speaker 1: going on. But yeah, can you can you talk about 752 00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:49,840 Speaker 1: why that's so important? I think it's important to realize, 753 00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:52,880 Speaker 1: you know, how some of the things that we take 754 00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:56,160 Speaker 1: for granted came into in existence. That way, there's like 755 00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:59,959 Speaker 1: a level of context, right, And yeah, thinking about how 756 00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:03,880 Speaker 1: how we think about money is important because the quality 757 00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:06,239 Speaker 1: of our thinking is going to impact the quality of 758 00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:10,520 Speaker 1: our decision making when it comes to finances and you know, 759 00:37:10,520 --> 00:37:14,080 Speaker 1: there's a lot outside of our control. A global pandemic happens, 760 00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:16,719 Speaker 1: and we all have to scramble. Uh you let go 761 00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:20,440 Speaker 1: from an employer. Uh, interest rates change and all those 762 00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:23,280 Speaker 1: things we can't control. But the things we can control 763 00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:25,920 Speaker 1: are thinking about how we think about money and thinking 764 00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:29,239 Speaker 1: about our decision making process. And that's why, you know, 765 00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:33,360 Speaker 1: I try to emphasize the importance of agency in these areas. 766 00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:35,279 Speaker 1: Like I'm noting that so much of what you're talking 767 00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:37,399 Speaker 1: about here has to do with what, like what's going 768 00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:39,120 Speaker 1: on in our own minds, you know, like so much 769 00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:41,960 Speaker 1: of your book is dedicated to mindset, is dedicated to 770 00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:45,040 Speaker 1: how we think about our money as opposed to you know, 771 00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:47,120 Speaker 1: it's it's nice to, you know, for you to point 772 00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:49,440 Speaker 1: out that we it's a good practice to separate out 773 00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:51,799 Speaker 1: our our spending, but so much of it can take 774 00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:54,440 Speaker 1: place between our own ears, as it is on the 775 00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:56,960 Speaker 1: spreadsheets or or the different apps that we're using, or 776 00:37:57,000 --> 00:37:59,480 Speaker 1: how much cash we're keeping on hand. Um. I love 777 00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:02,560 Speaker 1: that you're take in this approach that points out that 778 00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:04,560 Speaker 1: a lot of the data or like you said, a 779 00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:07,520 Speaker 1: lot of information is out there, but we're regularly seeing 780 00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:10,200 Speaker 1: people not make the right decisions. Uh. And that's because 781 00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:12,360 Speaker 1: it it oftentimes does come down to us. But I 782 00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:14,920 Speaker 1: wanted to ask you a quick question here about debts, 783 00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:17,759 Speaker 1: Like you've got this entire chapter dedicated to the concept 784 00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:21,360 Speaker 1: of reframing debt, and so how how do you encourage 785 00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:24,160 Speaker 1: folks to think about the role of debt in their lives? 786 00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:27,719 Speaker 1: Great question? When it comes to debt. One of the 787 00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:30,040 Speaker 1: things we have to realize is that this has been 788 00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:35,600 Speaker 1: a theme that has been present in human history forever. Um. 789 00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:40,640 Speaker 1: If you look back, way way back, humans were making sacrifices, 790 00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:44,799 Speaker 1: both you know, ritualistic sacrifices, because they were trying to 791 00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:49,520 Speaker 1: repay a debt to the gods. And some of you 792 00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:53,600 Speaker 1: folks might feel you have a responsibility to society or 793 00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:56,200 Speaker 1: you have a responsibility to your parents, and that you 794 00:38:56,239 --> 00:38:58,480 Speaker 1: have to kind of repay a debt to what's been 795 00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:01,120 Speaker 1: given to you. And so this em of debt has 796 00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:03,759 Speaker 1: been around for a long time. Um. When I was 797 00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:06,840 Speaker 1: writing the book, I did some digging, and I found 798 00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:12,000 Speaker 1: that there are some anthropologists that believe, actually there are 799 00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:17,840 Speaker 1: some anthropologists that cannot find data to support this concept that, uh, 800 00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:21,440 Speaker 1: money came before debt, Like there's a story in Adam 801 00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:25,600 Speaker 1: Smith's Wealth of Nations that said, you know, in some 802 00:39:25,719 --> 00:39:29,279 Speaker 1: New England market people were bartering, and that's you know, 803 00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:33,120 Speaker 1: bartering was originally how people exchanged goods. Then you have 804 00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:36,760 Speaker 1: this dilemma of you know, I want to barter with Joel, 805 00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:39,239 Speaker 1: but Joel doesn't want to barter with me, so he 806 00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:41,319 Speaker 1: has to first barter with Matt and then he can 807 00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:43,319 Speaker 1: barter with me, or I first have to barter with Matt. 808 00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:46,839 Speaker 1: And so the story is that because of this complication, 809 00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:49,640 Speaker 1: money was created. But the further I kept digging, the 810 00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:52,440 Speaker 1: more I found that even like back in times of 811 00:39:52,480 --> 00:39:56,560 Speaker 1: ancient Mesopotamia, people lived on debt just to finance their 812 00:39:56,640 --> 00:39:58,840 Speaker 1: day to day lives. And then they would settle that 813 00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:01,480 Speaker 1: debt when they would you know, go and harvest their 814 00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:04,480 Speaker 1: wheat or harvest whatever the crop they were growing. And 815 00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:09,120 Speaker 1: so debt actually preceded money. Uh. And so I wonder 816 00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:12,160 Speaker 1: if we didn't have debt, would we have money or 817 00:40:12,440 --> 00:40:15,719 Speaker 1: in some ways a slip for debt and IOU is 818 00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:18,840 Speaker 1: what turned into money like a h an invoice or 819 00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:21,120 Speaker 1: an IOU that says, you know, you gave me a 820 00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:23,000 Speaker 1: cow and I owe you the value of a cow 821 00:40:23,200 --> 00:40:25,560 Speaker 1: that could be traded around and that would end up 822 00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:28,520 Speaker 1: being you know, a dollar or whatever, you know, a note. 823 00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:33,120 Speaker 1: And when when I thought about it from that perspective, well, 824 00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:35,759 Speaker 1: it really blows it up. It really shows you that, 825 00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:38,840 Speaker 1: you know, debt has been around for a really long time. 826 00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:43,040 Speaker 1: And even though people feel shame and guilt about student loans, 827 00:40:43,120 --> 00:40:46,320 Speaker 1: I think it's important to understand that it's been around 828 00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:48,920 Speaker 1: for a long time and it's necessary for growth. And 829 00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:51,560 Speaker 1: I know that's probably challenging for a lot of folks. 830 00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:56,680 Speaker 1: But you know, think of debt like fire or red wine. 831 00:40:57,200 --> 00:41:00,520 Speaker 1: And I say that because fire is awesome, because we 832 00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:03,040 Speaker 1: can cook chicken to the internal temperature of a hundred 833 00:41:03,080 --> 00:41:05,359 Speaker 1: and sixty five degrees. We can use it to keep 834 00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:08,279 Speaker 1: ourselves warm. But when it's out of control, fire can 835 00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:11,680 Speaker 1: destroy livelihoods, right, And the same thing with with red wine. 836 00:41:11,719 --> 00:41:14,240 Speaker 1: It's like there's all these studies that say a glass 837 00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:16,200 Speaker 1: of red wine, I don't know, a few times a 838 00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:19,160 Speaker 1: week or something like that is overall beneficial for your health. 839 00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:21,879 Speaker 1: But if you're drinking like four bottles of red wine 840 00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:24,880 Speaker 1: at night, that's when we veer into some unhealthy territory. 841 00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:27,160 Speaker 1: And so I like to think of debt in that way, 842 00:41:27,320 --> 00:41:30,840 Speaker 1: and just understanding the history of debt I think allows 843 00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:32,960 Speaker 1: us to reframe it and just gives us a totally 844 00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:36,799 Speaker 1: different perspective. Yeah, I agree, and I think, Yeah, that's 845 00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:37,920 Speaker 1: just one of the things that we've talked about on 846 00:41:37,960 --> 00:41:40,000 Speaker 1: the show. I know we've had some guests who completely 847 00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:41,880 Speaker 1: disagree with us about that, and they think there's no 848 00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:43,640 Speaker 1: such thing as good debt. You can't even put those 849 00:41:43,640 --> 00:41:45,600 Speaker 1: two words in the same sentence. And then there are 850 00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:48,399 Speaker 1: other people who more like you, say that it can 851 00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:51,680 Speaker 1: be used effectively, and we agree, like, especially if you're 852 00:41:51,719 --> 00:41:54,799 Speaker 1: using it for something like an education, even still like 853 00:41:55,280 --> 00:41:57,680 Speaker 1: you've got to keep that under control, because even if 854 00:41:57,719 --> 00:42:00,439 Speaker 1: you're using debt for something that is good, it can 855 00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:02,799 Speaker 1: get out of whack and become you can you can 856 00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:04,319 Speaker 1: always say, like, well, I'm going back to get my 857 00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:06,279 Speaker 1: master's degree. It's gonna be a hundred thousand dollars I 858 00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:07,839 Speaker 1: don't know what I'm gonna do with it yet, and 859 00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:09,640 Speaker 1: that can still be a bad, bad decision, even if 860 00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:13,959 Speaker 1: you're using it for something that is supposedly good. Um, 861 00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:16,120 Speaker 1: but one of the reasons that you you argue, you say, 862 00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:18,800 Speaker 1: the reason to get out of debt is is because 863 00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:21,320 Speaker 1: of the emotional toll that it takes on a person, 864 00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:24,160 Speaker 1: And I think you're right talk to us about that 865 00:42:24,200 --> 00:42:28,399 Speaker 1: side of debt and how it kind of impacts us mentally. Yeah, 866 00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:31,839 Speaker 1: I think a lot of people are right when they're 867 00:42:31,840 --> 00:42:35,960 Speaker 1: taking personal responsibility for their debt. I think we should 868 00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:40,399 Speaker 1: take personal responsibility for our debt. But oftentimes folks who 869 00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:43,279 Speaker 1: have student loans and you know, they feel like they 870 00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:47,240 Speaker 1: were kind of sold this bag that is not working 871 00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:50,200 Speaker 1: out for them. That's when debt kind of starts to 872 00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:53,520 Speaker 1: feel a lot heavier. And I think a lot of 873 00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:56,000 Speaker 1: people there's just a lot of shame and guilt when 874 00:42:56,040 --> 00:42:59,120 Speaker 1: they're come when it comes to debt. And for sure, 875 00:42:59,160 --> 00:43:01,040 Speaker 1: paying that off is one way to get rid of 876 00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:03,120 Speaker 1: the shame and guilt. But I think people really need 877 00:43:03,160 --> 00:43:06,200 Speaker 1: to examine where that comes from and allow themselves to 878 00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:10,000 Speaker 1: heal and integrate that that part of themselves that they're rejecting. 879 00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:13,920 Speaker 1: And that's definitely one way to start to allow yourself 880 00:43:13,960 --> 00:43:16,760 Speaker 1: to deal with a debt more effectively. I think that's 881 00:43:17,239 --> 00:43:20,160 Speaker 1: a great way to think about something that is oftentimes 882 00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:23,520 Speaker 1: so integrated into our lives, whether it's student loans or 883 00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:25,359 Speaker 1: because you know what's funny is that, like, I don't 884 00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:27,719 Speaker 1: think anybody has any guilt or shame when it comes 885 00:43:27,719 --> 00:43:30,120 Speaker 1: to say, getting a mortgage for a house, right. And 886 00:43:30,160 --> 00:43:32,600 Speaker 1: so it really is curious what it is about student 887 00:43:32,640 --> 00:43:35,680 Speaker 1: loans in particular that seems to carry this additional burden 888 00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:38,399 Speaker 1: with it. And maybe it is because, like you you mentioned, Joel, 889 00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:41,840 Speaker 1: like the job prospects, right, if you are expecting a 890 00:43:42,040 --> 00:43:45,000 Speaker 1: certain job, perhaps you take on all this debt. I 891 00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:47,359 Speaker 1: don't like, maybe it's just a feeling of foolishness where 892 00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:49,240 Speaker 1: you're just like, well, shoot, like I was really expecting 893 00:43:49,239 --> 00:43:51,000 Speaker 1: to be able to land you know, ex type of 894 00:43:51,080 --> 00:43:54,280 Speaker 1: job that's not working out. Uh. And so just because 895 00:43:54,600 --> 00:43:57,480 Speaker 1: something you know isn't exactly working out, maybe like you 896 00:43:57,480 --> 00:43:59,680 Speaker 1: thought it, would you beat yourself up, break yourself over 897 00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:02,040 Speaker 1: the cold, because yeah, that that doesn't necessarily mean that 898 00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:04,239 Speaker 1: was a poor decision. It just means like things aren't 899 00:44:04,239 --> 00:44:06,120 Speaker 1: working out now, ben like, where do we go from here? 900 00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:08,880 Speaker 1: Let's examine the facts, uh and maybe figure out a 901 00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:11,440 Speaker 1: new plan. But moving on from that, and I think 902 00:44:11,560 --> 00:44:15,680 Speaker 1: that's certainly a healthy approach to tackling what might feel 903 00:44:15,680 --> 00:44:18,720 Speaker 1: like overwhelming debt totally, and you know, there's no way 904 00:44:18,760 --> 00:44:22,160 Speaker 1: to ever make a decision and know exactly what the 905 00:44:22,160 --> 00:44:24,439 Speaker 1: outcome is going to be good or bad. That's part 906 00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:27,680 Speaker 1: of the ride of you know, life on earth, um. 907 00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:29,560 Speaker 1: And so I think when you also approach it like that, 908 00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:31,560 Speaker 1: when you do the best you can with the information 909 00:44:31,600 --> 00:44:34,640 Speaker 1: that you've got, you examine the way that you think. Uh, 910 00:44:34,680 --> 00:44:37,280 Speaker 1: you make sure that you're making decisions when your nervous 911 00:44:37,280 --> 00:44:40,600 Speaker 1: system is calm. Those are always that we can approach 912 00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:43,359 Speaker 1: our finances so that we're you know, shooting for the 913 00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:46,319 Speaker 1: best possible outcome given the fact that there's a lot 914 00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:49,839 Speaker 1: outside our control. You've obviously never used to magic gate 915 00:44:49,880 --> 00:44:53,120 Speaker 1: ball because that was I mean, clear answers ahead of time. 916 00:44:53,200 --> 00:44:56,200 Speaker 1: So I don't know what you're talking about, but that 917 00:44:56,280 --> 00:44:58,480 Speaker 1: that there, that's a fifteen million dollar trick right there. 918 00:44:58,560 --> 00:45:02,880 Speaker 1: Huh exact. Uh, father, This has been a great conversation. 919 00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:05,719 Speaker 1: We really really appreciate you joining us. Where can our 920 00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:08,640 Speaker 1: listeners find more about you and about what you're up 921 00:45:08,719 --> 00:45:11,400 Speaker 1: to and about your new book. You can buy finance 922 00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:14,319 Speaker 1: for the people wherever books are sold, and we can 923 00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:15,920 Speaker 1: stay in touch if you go to the hell Yeah 924 00:45:15,960 --> 00:45:18,880 Speaker 1: group dot com I've got a weekly newsletter called the 925 00:45:18,920 --> 00:45:21,440 Speaker 1: Nerd Letter. It goes out every Wednesday, and if you 926 00:45:21,480 --> 00:45:24,200 Speaker 1: sign up for that, I will definitely be dropping some 927 00:45:24,280 --> 00:45:27,760 Speaker 1: gems in your inbox. Paca, this has been an awesome conversation. 928 00:45:27,840 --> 00:45:29,640 Speaker 1: Thanks so much for joining us today. Thank you so 929 00:45:29,719 --> 00:45:32,279 Speaker 1: much for having me. The pleasure was mine, all right, Matt. 930 00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:34,920 Speaker 1: That was a great combo, and I love the pleasure 931 00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:38,160 Speaker 1: was all mine. I'm gonna reclaim it. Yeah, that was 932 00:45:38,160 --> 00:45:41,120 Speaker 1: my pleasure, Paco, not yours. Now. It was great chatting 933 00:45:41,120 --> 00:45:44,000 Speaker 1: with Paco, and she's just I really do think her 934 00:45:44,040 --> 00:45:46,239 Speaker 1: book is going to do a lot of good and um, 935 00:45:46,280 --> 00:45:48,640 Speaker 1: I love the way it's laid out, the way it's presented, 936 00:45:48,680 --> 00:45:52,080 Speaker 1: and just I think, as listeners can tell, she's thought 937 00:45:52,120 --> 00:45:54,360 Speaker 1: deeply about a lot of these topics. And so that 938 00:45:54,480 --> 00:45:56,360 Speaker 1: kind of gets me to my big takeaway potentially, But 939 00:45:56,480 --> 00:45:57,920 Speaker 1: let's get to yours first. What was your big take 940 00:45:57,920 --> 00:46:00,319 Speaker 1: away from this combo? You kick it off like you're 941 00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:01,880 Speaker 1: right there, so you can kick it off to make 942 00:46:01,920 --> 00:46:04,040 Speaker 1: sure we don't overlap you, okay, all right? So she 943 00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:06,640 Speaker 1: one of the things she said, she said, the quality 944 00:46:06,680 --> 00:46:09,560 Speaker 1: of your thinking impacts the quality of your decisions, and 945 00:46:09,600 --> 00:46:11,799 Speaker 1: I was like, I wrote that down to Bam, that's 946 00:46:11,880 --> 00:46:14,399 Speaker 1: really good stuff. And I think sometimes we think that like, 947 00:46:14,640 --> 00:46:17,960 Speaker 1: as long as we get the nuts and bolts, A, B, 948 00:46:18,080 --> 00:46:20,239 Speaker 1: S and C s right, that we don't even have 949 00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:22,680 Speaker 1: to necessarily know how or why we're doing it. But 950 00:46:22,760 --> 00:46:24,400 Speaker 1: I think some of that deep thinking, some of that 951 00:46:24,440 --> 00:46:29,160 Speaker 1: reflection and kind of like like just we say that 952 00:46:29,239 --> 00:46:31,520 Speaker 1: index funds, low cost index funds are a great way 953 00:46:31,520 --> 00:46:34,080 Speaker 1: to invest. But if you don't know why you think that, 954 00:46:34,120 --> 00:46:35,759 Speaker 1: and you're just doing it because we said that's a 955 00:46:35,760 --> 00:46:37,759 Speaker 1: good idea, well you might change on a time when 956 00:46:37,760 --> 00:46:40,040 Speaker 1: someone else tells you next week, hey, you know what 957 00:46:40,200 --> 00:46:42,080 Speaker 1: else is a great idea? Buying the dip on the 958 00:46:42,080 --> 00:46:46,040 Speaker 1: Facebook Facebook stock drop. That's some meta Or they're watching 959 00:46:46,080 --> 00:46:47,640 Speaker 1: like Mad Money and they're like, oh, but this guy 960 00:46:47,680 --> 00:46:50,320 Speaker 1: says to buy this instead of all the index fake exactly. 961 00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:52,960 Speaker 1: And so you have to have thought deeply enough about 962 00:46:53,239 --> 00:46:55,400 Speaker 1: whether you know the way we view things resonates with 963 00:46:55,440 --> 00:46:57,920 Speaker 1: you because you can take some and leave some. But 964 00:46:57,960 --> 00:47:01,000 Speaker 1: if you haven't done that deep or of thinking through 965 00:47:01,360 --> 00:47:04,920 Speaker 1: why you feel that way and why that's leading to 966 00:47:05,120 --> 00:47:07,200 Speaker 1: certain actions in your life. When it comes to your 967 00:47:07,200 --> 00:47:10,200 Speaker 1: personal finances. I think you're doing yourself a disservice and 968 00:47:10,239 --> 00:47:11,959 Speaker 1: so so Yeah, I think what I'm kind of saying 969 00:47:12,040 --> 00:47:14,040 Speaker 1: is like, don't just do what we say based on 970 00:47:14,760 --> 00:47:17,239 Speaker 1: the fact that we set it, because we're certainly not infallible. 971 00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:20,239 Speaker 1: And yeah, do some of your own research and think 972 00:47:20,239 --> 00:47:22,719 Speaker 1: deeply about how you're gonna do things and why you 973 00:47:22,719 --> 00:47:24,759 Speaker 1: want to do them. I think that's gonna have a 974 00:47:24,800 --> 00:47:28,319 Speaker 1: massively beneficial impact on your finances over the long term 975 00:47:28,360 --> 00:47:30,920 Speaker 1: and will probably even you know, propel you towards doing 976 00:47:31,000 --> 00:47:35,000 Speaker 1: more uh and getting better with your finances more quickly. Totally, Yeah, 977 00:47:35,280 --> 00:47:37,000 Speaker 1: because the fact is, if you don't know why it 978 00:47:37,120 --> 00:47:39,319 Speaker 1: is that you're doing something, like you might arrive at 979 00:47:39,360 --> 00:47:41,839 Speaker 1: the right answer. But it's like doing proofs, like when 980 00:47:41,840 --> 00:47:43,600 Speaker 1: you're in school, like right when you're when you're doing 981 00:47:43,840 --> 00:47:47,520 Speaker 1: whatever math that requires proofs, you have to show your work. Uh. 982 00:47:47,560 --> 00:47:49,719 Speaker 1: It's it's not about getting the right answer, because that's 983 00:47:49,760 --> 00:47:52,920 Speaker 1: like that's essentially the easy, easy play. Yeah, Like you 984 00:47:52,960 --> 00:47:54,560 Speaker 1: have to show how it is that you got to 985 00:47:54,640 --> 00:47:58,120 Speaker 1: your answer, and once you know that, like that's what's replicable, right, 986 00:47:58,160 --> 00:48:00,440 Speaker 1: because you might stumble up on the right answer ocasionally 987 00:48:00,440 --> 00:48:02,359 Speaker 1: here and there. But that's not scalable. You can't take 988 00:48:02,400 --> 00:48:04,799 Speaker 1: that and then apply it to other areas, not only 989 00:48:04,800 --> 00:48:06,719 Speaker 1: in your finances, but even in your life, because the 990 00:48:06,800 --> 00:48:10,040 Speaker 1: variables are always shifting, even just slightly in our personal 991 00:48:10,040 --> 00:48:11,799 Speaker 1: financial lives, and so we have to take those into 992 00:48:11,840 --> 00:48:15,080 Speaker 1: account exactly. Uh, and one of the ways and so essentially, 993 00:48:15,239 --> 00:48:18,320 Speaker 1: so my big takeaways kind of like a precursor to years. Uh. 994 00:48:18,560 --> 00:48:20,520 Speaker 1: You know. So you talked about the quality of our 995 00:48:20,560 --> 00:48:23,920 Speaker 1: thinking impacting our decisions, and I think so much of 996 00:48:23,960 --> 00:48:27,319 Speaker 1: what increases the quality of our thinking is taking the 997 00:48:27,400 --> 00:48:30,000 Speaker 1: day time to do. So what I noted here is 998 00:48:30,040 --> 00:48:34,400 Speaker 1: that two of the five financial habits that she mentioned aren't, like, 999 00:48:34,440 --> 00:48:36,440 Speaker 1: aren't super nuts and bolty like like we're kind of 1000 00:48:36,440 --> 00:48:39,000 Speaker 1: talking about on the show. One of them was basically 1001 00:48:39,080 --> 00:48:42,959 Speaker 1: calming your nerves as a way to center ourselves before 1002 00:48:42,960 --> 00:48:45,600 Speaker 1: we make a large, you know, financial decision. And then 1003 00:48:45,640 --> 00:48:47,640 Speaker 1: the last one she talked about was gratitude. When she 1004 00:48:47,719 --> 00:48:51,400 Speaker 1: spends two out of five of her financial habits focused 1005 00:48:51,400 --> 00:48:52,880 Speaker 1: on the things that we need to do in our 1006 00:48:52,920 --> 00:48:55,400 Speaker 1: own minds, I think that's a red flag from Paco, 1007 00:48:55,520 --> 00:48:57,640 Speaker 1: where she's pointing out that it's not about the latest 1008 00:48:57,680 --> 00:49:00,880 Speaker 1: tip that's some financial advisor is is putting out there 1009 00:49:01,000 --> 00:49:03,239 Speaker 1: or you know, whatever rules are changing when it comes 1010 00:49:03,280 --> 00:49:05,480 Speaker 1: to roth iras or different things like that. Those things 1011 00:49:05,520 --> 00:49:07,560 Speaker 1: are important, and we do need to take some time 1012 00:49:07,800 --> 00:49:11,759 Speaker 1: and focus on those things, but of our time should 1013 00:49:11,800 --> 00:49:13,440 Speaker 1: also be focused on how it is that we are 1014 00:49:13,440 --> 00:49:16,239 Speaker 1: governing ourselves. Uh. And so my big takeaway is is 1015 00:49:16,280 --> 00:49:18,520 Speaker 1: just that we need to spend more time than we think. 1016 00:49:18,560 --> 00:49:21,200 Speaker 1: And she was talking about meditation, so whether it's meditation, 1017 00:49:21,239 --> 00:49:25,920 Speaker 1: whether it's taking the discipline or the weekly time dedicated 1018 00:49:26,239 --> 00:49:28,520 Speaker 1: towards So really maybe it's like two and a half 1019 00:49:28,840 --> 00:49:32,400 Speaker 1: of her five initial habits because that weekly time that 1020 00:49:32,440 --> 00:49:34,719 Speaker 1: you spend on your finances, not only is it going 1021 00:49:34,760 --> 00:49:36,879 Speaker 1: to refine your actual skills and your knowledge, but that's 1022 00:49:36,960 --> 00:49:39,319 Speaker 1: just again that's almost more of a mental thing, where 1023 00:49:39,360 --> 00:49:41,960 Speaker 1: it's just your willingness and the discipline to actually put 1024 00:49:42,000 --> 00:49:44,320 Speaker 1: in the work and too to work on improving yourself. 1025 00:49:44,640 --> 00:49:47,359 Speaker 1: So I just think that's huge, especially because I think 1026 00:49:47,360 --> 00:49:49,279 Speaker 1: that's something that we so often neglect in our lives. 1027 00:49:49,520 --> 00:49:52,160 Speaker 1: And I can be guilty of that sometimes of thinking 1028 00:49:52,200 --> 00:49:55,439 Speaker 1: the right thing or like listening to somebody talk about 1029 00:49:55,440 --> 00:49:57,040 Speaker 1: it and agreeing with them and then not doing the 1030 00:49:57,080 --> 00:49:59,120 Speaker 1: hard work of implementing it in my life. And so 1031 00:49:59,200 --> 00:50:01,040 Speaker 1: I think that habit is one of those that is 1032 00:50:01,520 --> 00:50:04,560 Speaker 1: core to getting good with your money, is especially in 1033 00:50:04,560 --> 00:50:07,759 Speaker 1: those early years, spending time every single week with your 1034 00:50:07,760 --> 00:50:09,879 Speaker 1: money and and developing that habit is going to pay 1035 00:50:10,120 --> 00:50:12,680 Speaker 1: huge dividends down the road. All right, Matt, let's get 1036 00:50:12,680 --> 00:50:14,560 Speaker 1: back to the beer that we had on the show. 1037 00:50:14,640 --> 00:50:18,560 Speaker 1: This one is called rugen Brow. It's a logger group. Yeah, 1038 00:50:18,600 --> 00:50:21,440 Speaker 1: and this one is is actually listener Julie sent this 1039 00:50:21,440 --> 00:50:22,880 Speaker 1: one in our way that she said this is her 1040 00:50:22,920 --> 00:50:25,239 Speaker 1: husband's favorite beer. So yeah, what we thoughts on this? 1041 00:50:25,320 --> 00:50:27,600 Speaker 1: But well, first I just realized that Paco founded the 1042 00:50:27,600 --> 00:50:31,520 Speaker 1: Hell Yeah group and this is Hell's logger and I 1043 00:50:31,560 --> 00:50:34,040 Speaker 1: swear we don't play these things, but sometimes it works 1044 00:50:34,040 --> 00:50:37,759 Speaker 1: out serendipitous. Yeah, So this is a Swiss brewery. I 1045 00:50:37,760 --> 00:50:40,600 Speaker 1: don't think I've ever had this beer or any beer 1046 00:50:40,640 --> 00:50:43,120 Speaker 1: by this brewery. And actually I've never had a Swiss beer, 1047 00:50:43,160 --> 00:50:45,000 Speaker 1: I don't think. Yeah, I guess we definitely haven't on 1048 00:50:45,120 --> 00:50:46,600 Speaker 1: the show. I don't know if I have in real life, 1049 00:50:46,920 --> 00:50:48,919 Speaker 1: but so the can the show is not real life? 1050 00:50:48,920 --> 00:50:50,680 Speaker 1: Now are we in the metaverse is that what's up, Matt, 1051 00:50:50,760 --> 00:50:53,600 Speaker 1: you know, in my civilian life, like my non personal 1052 00:50:53,680 --> 00:50:55,640 Speaker 1: finance life. So the first thing I want to own 1053 00:50:55,640 --> 00:50:57,239 Speaker 1: a point out is that like this can like the 1054 00:50:57,320 --> 00:50:59,680 Speaker 1: artwork it makes it look like it's like Keystone or 1055 00:50:59,760 --> 00:51:04,000 Speaker 1: like just like a super classic maybe even basic like 1056 00:51:04,120 --> 00:51:05,920 Speaker 1: style of beer, but the way it tastes is the 1057 00:51:05,960 --> 00:51:10,319 Speaker 1: complete opposite of the macro produced you know, U s loggers. 1058 00:51:10,320 --> 00:51:12,040 Speaker 1: This is such a good I mean the way I 1059 00:51:12,080 --> 00:51:14,319 Speaker 1: would describe it. First of all, we poured it. It 1060 00:51:14,400 --> 00:51:18,160 Speaker 1: had like the most beautiful like creamy foamy cloud topper 1061 00:51:18,200 --> 00:51:20,239 Speaker 1: of the head on top of the beer. But it 1062 00:51:20,320 --> 00:51:23,560 Speaker 1: just drank super clean, super crisp. When I googled the brewery, 1063 00:51:23,840 --> 00:51:25,360 Speaker 1: like they had a picture of it like on the 1064 00:51:25,360 --> 00:51:28,800 Speaker 1: side of this mountain road, and so I picture them 1065 00:51:28,840 --> 00:51:31,839 Speaker 1: just filling up their beer making vats with like from 1066 00:51:31,880 --> 00:51:33,719 Speaker 1: a stream that's like dropping off of the side of 1067 00:51:33,719 --> 00:51:35,359 Speaker 1: the rock or something like that. I feel like I'm 1068 00:51:35,400 --> 00:51:38,880 Speaker 1: drinking Swiss water right now. That's That's exactly what I thought. Actually, 1069 00:51:38,440 --> 00:51:41,239 Speaker 1: I was like, it tastes like Swiss mountain beer, and 1070 00:51:41,320 --> 00:51:44,200 Speaker 1: that's like, yeah, it is, I think so um. It 1071 00:51:44,280 --> 00:51:46,560 Speaker 1: had that kind of clean, crisp sort of vibe to it. 1072 00:51:46,680 --> 00:51:49,279 Speaker 1: And this is the kind of beer that is. It's 1073 00:51:49,320 --> 00:51:51,760 Speaker 1: interesting that it comes from a place it's colder, because 1074 00:51:51,920 --> 00:51:53,600 Speaker 1: I think of this beer is like a perfect summer 1075 00:51:53,600 --> 00:51:55,880 Speaker 1: beer here in Atlanta, but still great this time of 1076 00:51:55,960 --> 00:51:58,800 Speaker 1: year as well. And so yeah, big next to Julia 1077 00:51:58,880 --> 00:52:01,560 Speaker 1: for sending in our way. That's right, Julia, thank you 1078 00:52:01,560 --> 00:52:03,799 Speaker 1: so much for donating this beer to the show. And 1079 00:52:03,840 --> 00:52:05,719 Speaker 1: by the way, this is the same Julia who we 1080 00:52:05,760 --> 00:52:10,160 Speaker 1: mentioned recently when we were talking about domestic medical tourism. 1081 00:52:10,200 --> 00:52:12,600 Speaker 1: So again, thank you for the you know, those wise 1082 00:52:12,640 --> 00:52:16,680 Speaker 1: words sharing your experience there as well as this delicious beer. 1083 00:52:16,920 --> 00:52:19,240 Speaker 1: No doubt, but that's gonna do it for this episode, Matt. 1084 00:52:19,560 --> 00:52:22,560 Speaker 1: Until next time, Best Friends Out, Best Friends Out,