1 00:00:15,396 --> 00:00:25,076 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Okay, I think we are recording. Yeah, are you 2 00:00:25,116 --> 00:00:32,236 Speaker 1: controlling the recorder with your butt? Correct? Last summer coronavirus summer, 3 00:00:32,636 --> 00:00:36,476 Speaker 1: the last Archives. Dauntless producer Ben Natt of Haffrey came 4 00:00:36,516 --> 00:00:42,076 Speaker 1: to visit me in Vermont picture woods fields, goats, dogs, 5 00:00:42,436 --> 00:00:45,676 Speaker 1: a barn cat. The state was pretty much locked down, 6 00:00:46,356 --> 00:00:48,436 Speaker 1: and I couldn't let him in the house. So we 7 00:00:48,516 --> 00:00:52,156 Speaker 1: sat as vermontra say, a cow's length apart, on the 8 00:00:52,236 --> 00:00:55,236 Speaker 1: porch of a cabin in the woods. Benn had driven 9 00:00:55,276 --> 00:00:57,676 Speaker 1: up in a pickup truck loaded with all of his 10 00:00:57,756 --> 00:01:02,076 Speaker 1: fancy recording equipment, but in the cabin where there's no electricity, 11 00:01:02,356 --> 00:01:07,316 Speaker 1: the conditions for recording were a little primitive. That's like 12 00:01:08,036 --> 00:01:14,076 Speaker 1: we just need cornea. This is like fully regressed last 13 00:01:14,156 --> 00:01:19,996 Speaker 1: Archive recordings. This is the last archive, nineteenth century edition. Okay. 14 00:01:19,996 --> 00:01:22,196 Speaker 1: So the conditions were grim the way, so much of 15 00:01:22,196 --> 00:01:25,196 Speaker 1: the conditions in the pandemic were grim. But Ben had 16 00:01:25,196 --> 00:01:29,876 Speaker 1: come a long way to tell me a story. It's 17 00:01:29,876 --> 00:01:34,676 Speaker 1: the trappings of a ghost story basically. Also, we see 18 00:01:34,716 --> 00:01:37,276 Speaker 1: we have a chicken in the yard. Don't let the 19 00:01:37,356 --> 00:01:41,116 Speaker 1: chicken in. Wh'll never get the chicken. Yeah, there's a strong, 20 00:01:41,196 --> 00:01:46,036 Speaker 1: no chickens in the Last Archive roll. This episode, Ben's 21 00:01:46,036 --> 00:01:48,116 Speaker 1: going to tell you that story, the story he told 22 00:01:48,156 --> 00:01:50,956 Speaker 1: me on the porch of that cabin in Vermont, a 23 00:01:51,076 --> 00:01:54,796 Speaker 1: ghost story, a story I'd never heard before, but which 24 00:01:54,916 --> 00:01:58,956 Speaker 1: honestly is like the most last archive thing ever. Should 25 00:01:58,956 --> 00:02:01,876 Speaker 1: I do the thing here? Yeah, you tell the people. 26 00:02:03,196 --> 00:02:07,116 Speaker 1: Imagine a place, a cabin in the backwoods of the mind, 27 00:02:07,476 --> 00:02:13,116 Speaker 1: lined with cupboards, stocked with proof, cluttered with weird stuff, magnets, 28 00:02:13,836 --> 00:02:22,156 Speaker 1: a deck of cards with strange symbols, old radios, WI 29 00:02:22,316 --> 00:02:25,636 Speaker 1: on the door, weirdly, even on the door of that cabin. 30 00:02:25,916 --> 00:02:30,516 Speaker 1: Who reads the Last Archive? I'm Jill Lapoor and I'm 31 00:02:30,556 --> 00:02:33,996 Speaker 1: Ben Matafaffrey. This podcast has been going through the last 32 00:02:34,036 --> 00:02:38,316 Speaker 1: century of American history, decade by decade. This season is 33 00:02:38,356 --> 00:02:41,676 Speaker 1: all about doubt, and with this story of Ben's, we've 34 00:02:41,676 --> 00:02:45,476 Speaker 1: reached the nineteen fifties. I think of the nineteen fifties 35 00:02:45,516 --> 00:02:48,716 Speaker 1: as an age of conformity and also of persecution for 36 00:02:48,796 --> 00:02:52,236 Speaker 1: the nonconforming. So you've got your suburbs and your Barbie 37 00:02:52,236 --> 00:02:54,796 Speaker 1: dolls and your hula hoops and your heyday of liberalism. 38 00:02:55,076 --> 00:02:57,396 Speaker 1: But you've also got your red lining and your housing 39 00:02:57,436 --> 00:03:00,316 Speaker 1: covenants to keep black people out of those suburbs. The 40 00:03:00,436 --> 00:03:03,076 Speaker 1: nineteen fifties was a time when it seemed somehow important 41 00:03:03,076 --> 00:03:06,116 Speaker 1: to pretend that things were one way when they were 42 00:03:06,116 --> 00:03:10,236 Speaker 1: really another way. That's what grabbed me about Ben's we 43 00:03:10,236 --> 00:03:12,556 Speaker 1: think of the nineteen fifties is a time of intellectual 44 00:03:12,596 --> 00:03:17,676 Speaker 1: consensus and rigidity when actually, well, I don't want to 45 00:03:17,676 --> 00:03:24,276 Speaker 1: give it all away, Okay, Ben, take us there. Step 46 00:03:24,316 --> 00:03:27,356 Speaker 1: through the door to a living room in the town 47 00:03:27,396 --> 00:03:32,116 Speaker 1: of Pueblo, Colorado, ten thirty five pm, November nineteen fifty two. 48 00:03:32,796 --> 00:03:35,596 Speaker 1: There's a man leaning over a woman. She's lying on 49 00:03:35,636 --> 00:03:41,156 Speaker 1: a couch, and he's speaking into a microphone. Now, we're 50 00:03:41,196 --> 00:03:44,316 Speaker 1: going to turn back. We're going to turn back through 51 00:03:44,356 --> 00:03:48,236 Speaker 1: time and space, just like turning back in the pages 52 00:03:48,236 --> 00:03:51,596 Speaker 1: of a book. And when I next talked to you, 53 00:03:51,596 --> 00:03:54,356 Speaker 1: you will be seven years old, and you will be 54 00:03:54,396 --> 00:04:00,916 Speaker 1: able to answer my questions. That's the voice of Maury Bernstein, 55 00:04:01,156 --> 00:04:04,196 Speaker 1: a thirty three year old business man. He works in 56 00:04:04,236 --> 00:04:08,596 Speaker 1: the farm and industrial equipment business. Handsome, straight laced, he's 57 00:04:08,636 --> 00:04:14,796 Speaker 1: got curled black hair. Now, now you're seven years old, 58 00:04:15,476 --> 00:04:20,916 Speaker 1: are there any nice boys that you like? That voice 59 00:04:20,956 --> 00:04:24,476 Speaker 1: belongs to a twenty nine year old housewife named Virginia Tie. 60 00:04:24,836 --> 00:04:29,076 Speaker 1: She seems ordinary enough at first that night in nineteen 61 00:04:29,116 --> 00:04:31,476 Speaker 1: fifty two, she could have stayed home with her husband, 62 00:04:31,636 --> 00:04:34,036 Speaker 1: a local businessman, or they could have gone to a 63 00:04:34,076 --> 00:04:37,556 Speaker 1: bridge game, a cocktail party, or a dance. Maybe she 64 00:04:37,596 --> 00:04:40,996 Speaker 1: should have, but instead she's here on the couch in 65 00:04:41,116 --> 00:04:45,836 Speaker 1: Murray Burnstein's pitch black living room. I want you to 66 00:04:45,876 --> 00:04:50,196 Speaker 1: keep on going back and back and back in your mind, 67 00:04:51,036 --> 00:04:55,036 Speaker 1: and surprising as it may seem, strange as it may seem, 68 00:04:55,076 --> 00:04:57,756 Speaker 1: you will find that there are other scenes in your memory. 69 00:04:58,356 --> 00:05:01,076 Speaker 1: There are other scenes from far away lands and list 70 00:05:01,116 --> 00:05:06,316 Speaker 1: in places in your memory. Bernstein's doing something called hypnotic 71 00:05:06,316 --> 00:05:09,636 Speaker 1: age aggression. After the World Wars, it been used as 72 00:05:09,636 --> 00:05:12,796 Speaker 1: a way of helping soldiers deal with trauma. But the 73 00:05:12,836 --> 00:05:16,596 Speaker 1: woman Burnstein was age aggressing, Virginia Tie, didn't have any 74 00:05:16,636 --> 00:05:20,036 Speaker 1: known trauma, And honestly, that's not what burn scene was. 75 00:05:20,076 --> 00:05:23,716 Speaker 1: After he'd read a book that said that hypnotic age 76 00:05:23,716 --> 00:05:30,476 Speaker 1: aggression could help people remember past lives as in reincarnation. 77 00:05:32,676 --> 00:05:36,276 Speaker 1: Now you're going to tell me what scenes came into 78 00:05:36,356 --> 00:05:44,516 Speaker 1: your mind. What did you see scratch the paint offer 79 00:05:44,596 --> 00:05:48,436 Speaker 1: on my bed. It was a little bid. Don't my 80 00:05:48,636 --> 00:05:52,676 Speaker 1: nails on? Harry post into struandess why did you do that? 81 00:05:53,956 --> 00:06:00,276 Speaker 1: I don't know, it's just mad an awful spank. And 82 00:06:00,316 --> 00:06:05,956 Speaker 1: what is your name? Fridy? Your name is what? Fredy? 83 00:06:07,156 --> 00:06:13,676 Speaker 1: Don't you have any other name? Pride Murphy? Where do 84 00:06:13,716 --> 00:06:20,676 Speaker 1: you live? Ireland? Do you know what year it is? Eighteen? 85 00:06:20,716 --> 00:06:28,636 Speaker 1: Ohs Bernstein had done it. He had discovered Virginia tis 86 00:06:28,716 --> 00:06:32,636 Speaker 1: past self. She was named Bridy Murphy, born in Ireland 87 00:06:32,716 --> 00:06:36,396 Speaker 1: in seventeen ninety eight, died in eighteen sixty four, and 88 00:06:36,476 --> 00:06:39,676 Speaker 1: then resurrected in nineteen fifty two and caught on tape 89 00:06:39,716 --> 00:06:43,036 Speaker 1: like a ghost. That tape is incredible to listen to, 90 00:06:43,916 --> 00:06:50,196 Speaker 1: but not as incredible is what happened next. So I 91 00:06:50,276 --> 00:06:52,356 Speaker 1: kind of just don't even get from the start, like 92 00:06:53,796 --> 00:06:57,196 Speaker 1: nineteen fifties businessmen, yeah, and occult, Like I don't even 93 00:06:57,196 --> 00:06:59,396 Speaker 1: see how those two things good? Yeah, exactly, That's what. 94 00:06:59,596 --> 00:07:03,156 Speaker 1: That's what I was really curious about, because it's this Well, 95 00:07:03,196 --> 00:07:05,516 Speaker 1: I'll get to what happened, but this is who more 96 00:07:05,556 --> 00:07:09,876 Speaker 1: he is. Ever since he was a kid, Maury Bernstein 97 00:07:09,996 --> 00:07:14,996 Speaker 1: had led a charmed life. His family ran a successful 98 00:07:15,036 --> 00:07:19,116 Speaker 1: business selling industrial equipment flipping scrap metal in Pueblo Steeltown. 99 00:07:19,716 --> 00:07:22,636 Speaker 1: Bernstein knew one day he'd take over the family business. 100 00:07:23,796 --> 00:07:27,036 Speaker 1: He was a straight a student, star athlete. People said 101 00:07:27,076 --> 00:07:29,916 Speaker 1: he looked like Frank Sinatra. He was so good at 102 00:07:29,956 --> 00:07:31,956 Speaker 1: Yo Yo's that he got a job at the local 103 00:07:31,996 --> 00:07:35,196 Speaker 1: department store, showing them off on the sales floor. I 104 00:07:35,236 --> 00:07:38,316 Speaker 1: guess he saw more doing something you wanted to do 105 00:07:38,356 --> 00:07:42,916 Speaker 1: it too. Bernstein graduated from Wharton in nineteen forty one, 106 00:07:42,956 --> 00:07:44,916 Speaker 1: and he headed back to Colorado to help run the 107 00:07:44,916 --> 00:07:48,156 Speaker 1: family business. He got married to a woman named Hazel Higgins, 108 00:07:48,276 --> 00:07:50,476 Speaker 1: a made to order wife, a maid to order life 109 00:07:51,116 --> 00:07:54,436 Speaker 1: until one night Bernstein went to a party with a 110 00:07:54,476 --> 00:07:57,836 Speaker 1: man who said he was a hypnotist. The man asked 111 00:07:57,836 --> 00:08:00,916 Speaker 1: if anyone wanted to try it, and, as Bernstein later wrote, 112 00:08:01,156 --> 00:08:03,756 Speaker 1: a tall, attractive blonde girl spoke up and offered to 113 00:08:03,796 --> 00:08:07,916 Speaker 1: be his subject. So the first scientifically relevant detail in 114 00:08:07,956 --> 00:08:11,756 Speaker 1: this investigation the unknown is that the first time Bernstein 115 00:08:11,796 --> 00:08:15,556 Speaker 1: witness the shypnotism, it involves an attractive blonde lady. That 116 00:08:15,716 --> 00:08:18,636 Speaker 1: the women are attractive in some Doris Day way is 117 00:08:18,676 --> 00:08:23,116 Speaker 1: not incidental to this story. Bernstein's journey began that night 118 00:08:23,796 --> 00:08:30,676 Speaker 1: with that blonde woman. The hypnotist put her so deep 119 00:08:30,716 --> 00:08:33,276 Speaker 1: in a trance that her fiance could do anything and 120 00:08:33,356 --> 00:08:36,796 Speaker 1: she wouldn't flinch. He made loud noises, tickled her, put 121 00:08:36,836 --> 00:08:40,596 Speaker 1: mustard on her face. It's pretty creepy, But the sexual 122 00:08:40,636 --> 00:08:43,516 Speaker 1: politics here are not really subtext so much as like 123 00:08:43,756 --> 00:08:47,796 Speaker 1: bold faced headline text. And honestly, you could make a 124 00:08:47,836 --> 00:08:51,316 Speaker 1: diorama of pseudoscience or even just psychology through the ages, 125 00:08:51,636 --> 00:08:54,596 Speaker 1: and it would be this same scene, men experimenting on 126 00:08:54,636 --> 00:08:58,476 Speaker 1: women over and over again. This was what first got 127 00:08:58,476 --> 00:09:04,636 Speaker 1: Bernstein curious about hypnosis, the control it also raised for him, 128 00:09:04,676 --> 00:09:08,116 Speaker 1: he said, a whole train of questions. He later wrote, 129 00:09:08,716 --> 00:09:11,156 Speaker 1: if this thing is true, if this is a fact, 130 00:09:11,436 --> 00:09:14,316 Speaker 1: then why is it not more widely used? His suggestion 131 00:09:14,436 --> 00:09:17,076 Speaker 1: is so powerful in this state, then is this not 132 00:09:17,196 --> 00:09:20,076 Speaker 1: a powerful weapon for good? If the human mind can 133 00:09:20,116 --> 00:09:24,516 Speaker 1: be so directed, so molded, so impressed, then why does 134 00:09:24,556 --> 00:09:28,436 Speaker 1: not every doctor understand the fundamentals of hypnosis? What is 135 00:09:28,476 --> 00:09:34,116 Speaker 1: the reason that science does not show more interest? But 136 00:09:34,276 --> 00:09:37,116 Speaker 1: science had expressed a lot of interest for a very 137 00:09:37,156 --> 00:09:40,636 Speaker 1: long time. So before we get back to Bernstein and 138 00:09:40,676 --> 00:09:44,756 Speaker 1: his discovery of reincarnation, let's take a brief tour through 139 00:09:44,756 --> 00:09:51,396 Speaker 1: the past lives of hypnotism, beginning specifically in Austria in 140 00:09:51,436 --> 00:09:56,836 Speaker 1: the eighteenth century with a man named Franz Mesmer. Mesmer 141 00:09:56,956 --> 00:09:59,396 Speaker 1: was a physician who believed that there was a mystical 142 00:09:59,596 --> 00:10:03,076 Speaker 1: invisible fluid and all living things that was magnetized by 143 00:10:03,116 --> 00:10:06,316 Speaker 1: the planets and the stars. If the fluid got blocked up, 144 00:10:06,516 --> 00:10:08,676 Speaker 1: you got sick. And I mean, this wasn't all that 145 00:10:08,756 --> 00:10:11,556 Speaker 1: different from a lot of other cutting edge science. The 146 00:10:11,636 --> 00:10:14,116 Speaker 1: late eighteenth century was a time when lots of invisible 147 00:10:14,196 --> 00:10:17,596 Speaker 1: laws were getting discovered, the conservation of mass, the existence 148 00:10:17,596 --> 00:10:21,796 Speaker 1: of oxygen, the power of electricity. Ideas like Mesmer's fluid 149 00:10:21,876 --> 00:10:25,796 Speaker 1: had been around for centuries, but he had invented a 150 00:10:25,836 --> 00:10:29,236 Speaker 1: new therapy that could get the fluids flowing again. He'd 151 00:10:29,236 --> 00:10:32,556 Speaker 1: bring people over to his drawing rooms. He'd wear purple 152 00:10:32,676 --> 00:10:35,796 Speaker 1: robes and move his hands or magnetize iron rods over 153 00:10:35,836 --> 00:10:38,836 Speaker 1: their bodies. He'd send them into trances to cure them. 154 00:10:39,636 --> 00:10:43,596 Speaker 1: This is where the term mesmerized comes from, and Mesmerism 155 00:10:43,796 --> 00:10:46,316 Speaker 1: took off all across Europe as a sort of combo 156 00:10:46,596 --> 00:10:50,516 Speaker 1: party trick and miracle cure. It got really popular during 157 00:10:50,556 --> 00:10:53,036 Speaker 1: the very decades that women were first fighting for the 158 00:10:53,156 --> 00:10:56,276 Speaker 1: right to vote, and then it had a very long afterlife. 159 00:10:58,916 --> 00:11:03,436 Speaker 1: You have he kind of like Mesmer to Freud, to 160 00:11:03,636 --> 00:11:08,156 Speaker 1: bf Skinner of just men who were like, it really 161 00:11:08,236 --> 00:11:11,476 Speaker 1: is bugging me that women are gaining some power outside 162 00:11:11,516 --> 00:11:14,076 Speaker 1: the household, in the family. So I wonder if ict 163 00:11:14,076 --> 00:11:16,756 Speaker 1: I'd just put them to sleep, and then everything will 164 00:11:16,796 --> 00:11:20,236 Speaker 1: be about like their sexuality, and I'll just make suggestions 165 00:11:20,316 --> 00:11:24,236 Speaker 1: to them. Over the next century, all sorts of eminent 166 00:11:24,276 --> 00:11:27,836 Speaker 1: doctors started using trans states to treat hysteria in women, 167 00:11:28,356 --> 00:11:31,636 Speaker 1: a made up therapy for a made up condition. Eventually, 168 00:11:31,716 --> 00:11:35,516 Speaker 1: a fluid free version of Mesmerism got somewhat legitimized under 169 00:11:35,556 --> 00:11:39,516 Speaker 1: a new name, hypnotism. Freud used it on his patients. 170 00:11:39,956 --> 00:11:44,516 Speaker 1: Hypnosis is one of the foundations of psychoanalysis. Maury Bernstein 171 00:11:44,916 --> 00:11:49,236 Speaker 1: he was really just another disciple of Franz Mesmer. A 172 00:11:49,316 --> 00:11:53,196 Speaker 1: couple of centuries after Mesmer conducted his first experiments, Bernstein 173 00:11:53,396 --> 00:11:56,596 Speaker 1: started practicing on his wife Hazel and claimed to have 174 00:11:56,636 --> 00:11:59,556 Speaker 1: cured her over headaches. He said he'd help people with 175 00:11:59,596 --> 00:12:05,276 Speaker 1: all sorts of things migraines, insomnia, stuttering, hysterical paralysis, but 176 00:12:05,356 --> 00:12:09,396 Speaker 1: it didn't stop with hypnosis. Before long, he started getting 177 00:12:09,396 --> 00:12:14,116 Speaker 1: into stranger things, things mainstream science hadn't yet proven, like 178 00:12:14,596 --> 00:12:19,756 Speaker 1: extrasensory perception past lives. In a way, he grew frustrated 179 00:12:19,836 --> 00:12:24,956 Speaker 1: with science. Back on the porch in Vermont, Jill and 180 00:12:25,036 --> 00:12:27,876 Speaker 1: I were batting around a different set of mysteries. What 181 00:12:28,076 --> 00:12:30,116 Speaker 1: lies behind the appeal of all this stuff about the 182 00:12:30,196 --> 00:12:34,276 Speaker 1: human mind esp or clairvoyants or auras or who knows 183 00:12:34,276 --> 00:12:37,276 Speaker 1: what else? Do you ever refer to this stuff as 184 00:12:37,356 --> 00:12:40,716 Speaker 1: yah yah? No? So I had a roommate in graduate 185 00:12:40,796 --> 00:12:43,436 Speaker 1: school he was pretty into this stuff because she was 186 00:12:43,436 --> 00:12:46,716 Speaker 1: in her peachd program in history. There were various like 187 00:12:47,356 --> 00:12:49,236 Speaker 1: slightly occulty things. I mean, I had a lot of 188 00:12:49,316 --> 00:12:51,476 Speaker 1: roommates when I was younger who were into like primal 189 00:12:51,516 --> 00:12:55,396 Speaker 1: scream therapy, like just whatnot. Like I had roommate who 190 00:12:55,396 --> 00:12:57,796 Speaker 1: was a wicked or just just like, I'm so not 191 00:12:57,916 --> 00:13:01,316 Speaker 1: that person, but I like those people, like I like 192 00:13:01,436 --> 00:13:03,516 Speaker 1: the challenge that they present, and I also just like 193 00:13:03,596 --> 00:13:08,396 Speaker 1: their individualism. Anyway, this wonderful roommate and her girlfriend always 194 00:13:08,436 --> 00:13:11,356 Speaker 1: called it yah yah and that everyone has at some 195 00:13:11,476 --> 00:13:13,876 Speaker 1: level a yah ya, like just like it's like just 196 00:13:13,916 --> 00:13:17,316 Speaker 1: like a thing that you do that makes no real 197 00:13:17,396 --> 00:13:21,116 Speaker 1: sense and just reveals that there is no order in 198 00:13:21,116 --> 00:13:23,916 Speaker 1: your mind, like that is also no order in the universe. 199 00:13:23,996 --> 00:13:26,196 Speaker 1: Like like just like it's okay because we all have 200 00:13:26,236 --> 00:13:29,436 Speaker 1: a yaya, but some people have too many of them anyway. 201 00:13:29,676 --> 00:13:33,476 Speaker 1: I like that Marie Bernstein was the guy from yo 202 00:13:33,556 --> 00:13:38,276 Speaker 1: yo's to yaya's. Yeah, a lot of yaya. He did 203 00:13:38,396 --> 00:13:41,516 Speaker 1: have a lot of yahya's. Most of them were harmless, 204 00:13:42,276 --> 00:13:54,956 Speaker 1: but not all Thanks to Maury Bernstein, I'm now forever 205 00:13:54,996 --> 00:13:57,116 Speaker 1: going to think of the nineteen fifties as the age 206 00:13:57,436 --> 00:13:59,996 Speaker 1: not of the Barbie Doll or the yo yo, but 207 00:14:00,116 --> 00:14:03,356 Speaker 1: the age of the yaya. Why so much ya ya? 208 00:14:04,756 --> 00:14:07,236 Speaker 1: I think partly because all sorts of World War two 209 00:14:07,276 --> 00:14:10,476 Speaker 1: technology was making its way in the nineteen fifties into 210 00:14:10,516 --> 00:14:15,836 Speaker 1: modern life. Atomic energy, microwaves, mainframe computers, thinks whose workings 211 00:14:16,036 --> 00:14:19,996 Speaker 1: were invisible. They seemed like miracles, and that made it 212 00:14:19,996 --> 00:14:24,516 Speaker 1: seem as if anything was possible. Knowledge depends on observation, 213 00:14:25,156 --> 00:14:29,116 Speaker 1: but all those innovations, with their invisible workings must have 214 00:14:29,156 --> 00:14:32,716 Speaker 1: made people feel a little doubtful. We think of the 215 00:14:32,796 --> 00:14:35,956 Speaker 1: nineteen fifties as a super buttoned up time. But Maury 216 00:14:35,996 --> 00:14:39,516 Speaker 1: Bernstein and his Yahya's kind of shows the lie. Here's 217 00:14:39,556 --> 00:14:43,316 Speaker 1: this put together businessman who learns about hypnosis and then 218 00:14:43,356 --> 00:14:47,556 Speaker 1: basically begins practicing the occult. And he wasn't the only one. 219 00:14:47,876 --> 00:14:50,316 Speaker 1: There were other seekers out there too. Some of them 220 00:14:50,316 --> 00:14:54,156 Speaker 1: were even scientists at serious universities. Back then, it wasn't 221 00:14:54,276 --> 00:14:58,116 Speaker 1: entirely weird to be interested in what Bernstein was interested in. 222 00:14:58,116 --> 00:15:02,116 Speaker 1: In some circles, it was cutting edge. By nineteen fifty two, 223 00:15:02,356 --> 00:15:05,996 Speaker 1: in North Carolina, a psychologist named doctor J. B Ryan 224 00:15:06,236 --> 00:15:10,116 Speaker 1: was making his own investigations into the unknown. Ryan headed 225 00:15:10,196 --> 00:15:13,836 Speaker 1: up the Duke Parapsychology Laboratory, and he'd been doing this 226 00:15:13,916 --> 00:15:17,076 Speaker 1: research for a long time since before the Second World War. 227 00:15:17,796 --> 00:15:20,756 Speaker 1: Bernstein was a big fan. He'd first heard about jb 228 00:15:20,956 --> 00:15:24,156 Speaker 1: Ryan's lab in the nineteen thirties, around when Ryan was 229 00:15:24,236 --> 00:15:29,596 Speaker 1: part of conducting experiments in telepathy using the radio. What 230 00:15:30,276 --> 00:15:33,436 Speaker 1: telepathy dove would have to play a part in personal enters, 231 00:15:33,476 --> 00:15:38,476 Speaker 1: the success controls? These are some of the questions I seen. 232 00:15:38,516 --> 00:15:42,876 Speaker 1: Its foundation seeks to explain. Here's how it worked. Ryan 233 00:15:42,956 --> 00:15:45,196 Speaker 1: had a deck of special cards, each with a different 234 00:15:45,196 --> 00:15:48,476 Speaker 1: symbol on the back. Three wavy lines, a star, a square. 235 00:15:49,076 --> 00:15:51,636 Speaker 1: He'd hold up a card and ask subjects whether they 236 00:15:51,716 --> 00:15:54,636 Speaker 1: knew what symbol was hidden on it. He figured he 237 00:15:54,636 --> 00:15:58,196 Speaker 1: could calculate the probability that someone would randomly guess the shape, 238 00:15:58,516 --> 00:16:02,436 Speaker 1: But if someone guessed correctly more often than probability predicted, 239 00:16:02,916 --> 00:16:06,476 Speaker 1: Ryan thought they must have special powers, and some people 240 00:16:06,516 --> 00:16:09,596 Speaker 1: really seemed like they did. He began to wonder just 241 00:16:09,636 --> 00:16:12,956 Speaker 1: how many he tested his students, kids in his neighborhood. 242 00:16:13,236 --> 00:16:16,556 Speaker 1: But to find out how widespread telepathy truly was, you'd 243 00:16:16,556 --> 00:16:19,236 Speaker 1: have to test a lot of people at once. That's 244 00:16:19,236 --> 00:16:24,556 Speaker 1: where the radio came in. If you wish to test 245 00:16:24,676 --> 00:16:28,116 Speaker 1: or extrasensory perception and telepathy in your own family circles, 246 00:16:28,756 --> 00:16:32,396 Speaker 1: university EESC cards identical with all you in the Amazing 247 00:16:32,436 --> 00:16:35,636 Speaker 1: Test by Doctor J. B. Ryan are now available at 248 00:16:35,716 --> 00:16:39,476 Speaker 1: stores everywhere. The head of the radio company it was 249 00:16:39,516 --> 00:16:43,716 Speaker 1: called Zenith, saw an opportunity. People could use versions of 250 00:16:43,796 --> 00:16:47,036 Speaker 1: Ryan's cards to test themselves at home, and NBC would 251 00:16:47,076 --> 00:16:50,476 Speaker 1: run a version of his test on the air. A 252 00:16:50,596 --> 00:16:54,196 Speaker 1: supposedly telepathic person in the radio studio would look at 253 00:16:54,196 --> 00:16:56,756 Speaker 1: a card and try to communicate to the radio audience 254 00:16:56,796 --> 00:17:01,956 Speaker 1: what was on it, But silently using only telepathy. People 255 00:17:01,956 --> 00:17:03,916 Speaker 1: would write into the show with their answers, and the 256 00:17:03,956 --> 00:17:07,116 Speaker 1: company tallied them up. If you think about it, radio 257 00:17:07,236 --> 00:17:09,916 Speaker 1: already is just a bunch of invisible waves flying through 258 00:17:09,956 --> 00:17:11,756 Speaker 1: the air to tell you things in the first place, 259 00:17:12,596 --> 00:17:16,436 Speaker 1: So why not to let Patheva Radio see if pathodians 260 00:17:16,436 --> 00:17:20,436 Speaker 1: there mine comes through face to you and write down 261 00:17:20,476 --> 00:17:23,476 Speaker 1: your impressions in consecutive order as quickly as you get them. 262 00:17:24,156 --> 00:17:27,396 Speaker 1: Five and dime stores sold out of the esp cards, 263 00:17:27,436 --> 00:17:31,596 Speaker 1: and many many more people, not just scientists, were beginning 264 00:17:31,636 --> 00:17:34,916 Speaker 1: to think for themselves about all the weird possibilities the 265 00:17:35,036 --> 00:17:40,956 Speaker 1: mind might hold. I mean, the other thing that's weird 266 00:17:40,996 --> 00:17:46,876 Speaker 1: about the twentieth century version of this weird possibilities of 267 00:17:46,876 --> 00:17:52,796 Speaker 1: the mind is mass communications allows these practitioners or parapsychologists 268 00:17:53,116 --> 00:17:55,116 Speaker 1: to kind of go to the people with their evidence 269 00:17:55,556 --> 00:17:58,236 Speaker 1: in a way that's different. Yeah, right, And it's a 270 00:17:58,276 --> 00:18:00,916 Speaker 1: thing that scientists haven't dealt with yet. And enough of 271 00:18:00,916 --> 00:18:03,356 Speaker 1: them are kind of cautiously open to the idea that 272 00:18:03,436 --> 00:18:05,996 Speaker 1: maybe there is such a thing as ESPN brain control. 273 00:18:06,036 --> 00:18:08,236 Speaker 1: That they don't write it off. Some of them do, 274 00:18:08,356 --> 00:18:10,596 Speaker 1: but not everyone. Right, Like where you might have like 275 00:18:10,676 --> 00:18:14,556 Speaker 1: the itinerant quack who goes from village to village. In 276 00:18:14,596 --> 00:18:16,956 Speaker 1: the eighteenth to the nineteenth century, it is still kind 277 00:18:16,996 --> 00:18:19,516 Speaker 1: of the royal society that's going to decide whether or 278 00:18:19,516 --> 00:18:22,516 Speaker 1: not that's a legit. But in the twentieth century jb. 279 00:18:22,676 --> 00:18:24,796 Speaker 1: Ryan can have new frontiers of the mind stuff and 280 00:18:24,836 --> 00:18:27,556 Speaker 1: he can go in the radio and somehow the people 281 00:18:27,676 --> 00:18:31,916 Speaker 1: get to decide like whether this stuff is legit. Ryan 282 00:18:32,036 --> 00:18:34,396 Speaker 1: was showing how you make a case for the existence 283 00:18:34,436 --> 00:18:38,276 Speaker 1: of the supernatural to the public, and the public was listening. 284 00:18:39,916 --> 00:18:43,036 Speaker 1: After those radio experiments, Ryan began to get a lot 285 00:18:43,076 --> 00:18:47,396 Speaker 1: of publicity, like this article in Life magazine. By some 286 00:18:47,716 --> 00:18:52,036 Speaker 1: doctor Ryan has been compared to Copernicus, Galileo Newton, Darwin, Freud, 287 00:18:52,116 --> 00:18:55,276 Speaker 1: and other pioneers. By others, he is regarded as a 288 00:18:55,356 --> 00:18:59,556 Speaker 1: misguided crackpot and either a deliberate or an unconscious fraud. 289 00:19:00,236 --> 00:19:03,676 Speaker 1: That article was actually pretty positive about Ryan, but it 290 00:19:03,756 --> 00:19:06,556 Speaker 1: also ran with this gem of an editor's note. Life 291 00:19:06,596 --> 00:19:09,556 Speaker 1: senators did not commit themselves to accept into his point 292 00:19:09,596 --> 00:19:12,276 Speaker 1: of view, nor do they presume to act as jury 293 00:19:12,276 --> 00:19:14,196 Speaker 1: on the matter of whether or not the existence of 294 00:19:14,716 --> 00:19:20,796 Speaker 1: esp is a proven fact. Today, we probably have a 295 00:19:20,836 --> 00:19:23,116 Speaker 1: better sense of where the line falls between kookie and 296 00:19:23,196 --> 00:19:27,556 Speaker 1: legit or do we why is it called like when 297 00:19:27,596 --> 00:19:30,396 Speaker 1: does paris psychology become a thing? Or when is it 298 00:19:30,436 --> 00:19:34,796 Speaker 1: called that? Or when is it like institutional and when 299 00:19:34,836 --> 00:19:37,596 Speaker 1: does it get jettisoned from institutions? Like we do not 300 00:19:37,676 --> 00:19:40,556 Speaker 1: have a department of Paris psychology at Harvard University, but 301 00:19:40,636 --> 00:19:44,156 Speaker 1: Harvard did have William James, the father of American psychology 302 00:19:44,396 --> 00:19:46,996 Speaker 1: at least until his death in nineteen ten, and he 303 00:19:47,036 --> 00:19:50,676 Speaker 1: had some pretty out there beliefs. I think William James 304 00:19:50,716 --> 00:19:54,316 Speaker 1: has a major influence obviously in all of American psychology, 305 00:19:54,316 --> 00:19:56,636 Speaker 1: but especially at the turn of the century. You know, 306 00:19:56,676 --> 00:19:59,956 Speaker 1: when William James dies, he asks Henry James to stay 307 00:19:59,956 --> 00:20:02,196 Speaker 1: in Cambridge for six weeks because William's going to try 308 00:20:02,236 --> 00:20:05,796 Speaker 1: and communicate from the grade beyond, which I love just 309 00:20:05,876 --> 00:20:07,916 Speaker 1: because that was one of the last things that he 310 00:20:07,996 --> 00:20:12,396 Speaker 1: did was take a scientific approach to what was not 311 00:20:12,436 --> 00:20:14,956 Speaker 1: even a philosophical question so much as a religious or 312 00:20:14,996 --> 00:20:17,516 Speaker 1: spiritual one. So I think that there's like a strong 313 00:20:17,636 --> 00:20:21,476 Speaker 1: strain of there wouldn't be a need for parapsychology in 314 00:20:21,516 --> 00:20:24,836 Speaker 1: the early nineteen hundreds because it's only just split off 315 00:20:24,836 --> 00:20:30,116 Speaker 1: from philosophy. All psychology was para. It's very hard to 316 00:20:30,156 --> 00:20:34,236 Speaker 1: prove definitively that something's not real, especially when science kept 317 00:20:34,236 --> 00:20:37,196 Speaker 1: expanding the range of things you could believe in. So 318 00:20:37,356 --> 00:20:40,036 Speaker 1: a lot of scientists kept their minds at least tentatively 319 00:20:40,076 --> 00:20:45,436 Speaker 1: open to things we now think of as Koukie jb 320 00:20:45,636 --> 00:20:48,716 Speaker 1: Ryan's mind was more open than most. People used to 321 00:20:48,716 --> 00:20:51,436 Speaker 1: write to the lab at Duke about strange happenings in 322 00:20:51,436 --> 00:20:55,316 Speaker 1: their lives, and he took them seriously. Here's a letter 323 00:20:55,396 --> 00:20:59,476 Speaker 1: from nineteen forty nine. We have in our congregation a 324 00:20:59,636 --> 00:21:03,916 Speaker 1: family who are being disturbed by Poulter Guy's phenomena. The 325 00:21:04,036 --> 00:21:07,916 Speaker 1: phenomenage present only in the boy's presence. I had him 326 00:21:07,956 --> 00:21:11,236 Speaker 1: in my home, Perrish moved with him, one threw him 327 00:21:11,276 --> 00:21:14,516 Speaker 1: out his bed shook whenever he was in it. Words 328 00:21:14,556 --> 00:21:17,116 Speaker 1: appeared on the boy's body, and he has visions of 329 00:21:17,196 --> 00:21:19,796 Speaker 1: the devil and goes into a trance and speaks in 330 00:21:19,996 --> 00:21:24,356 Speaker 1: strange language. Believe it or not, that letter is about 331 00:21:24,396 --> 00:21:28,076 Speaker 1: the boy, an actual kid who inspired the horror movie 332 00:21:28,556 --> 00:21:37,196 Speaker 1: The Exorcist. Anyway back to would be Paris psychologist Maury 333 00:21:37,236 --> 00:21:41,196 Speaker 1: Bernstein from his home in Pueblo Bernstein wrote letters to 334 00:21:41,276 --> 00:21:43,756 Speaker 1: Ryan and sent him reports on the hundreds of experiments 335 00:21:43,796 --> 00:21:48,076 Speaker 1: he'd run. In nineteen fifty two, Ryan invited Bernstein and 336 00:21:48,156 --> 00:21:51,236 Speaker 1: his wife to visit the Paris Psychology Lab and stay 337 00:21:51,276 --> 00:21:54,996 Speaker 1: for a week. For Bernstein this really was like meeting 338 00:21:55,036 --> 00:21:59,036 Speaker 1: Copernicus or Galileo. But to a lot of actual scientists 339 00:21:59,236 --> 00:22:01,796 Speaker 1: there wasn't much daylight between A jb Ryan and a 340 00:22:01,876 --> 00:22:05,956 Speaker 1: Maury Bernstein. A lot of Ryan's fellow scientists did not approve, 341 00:22:06,396 --> 00:22:11,636 Speaker 1: including one of the most famous psychologists of the twentieth century, B. F. Skinner. 342 00:22:13,236 --> 00:22:16,356 Speaker 1: Skinner is the behaviorist who, among other things, like putting 343 00:22:16,436 --> 00:22:21,556 Speaker 1: rats in complicated cages. He didn't have time for Ryan's pseudoscience. Also, 344 00:22:21,756 --> 00:22:24,316 Speaker 1: he figured out that under the right conditions you could 345 00:22:24,356 --> 00:22:27,076 Speaker 1: see through the mass produced sp cards they were printed 346 00:22:27,116 --> 00:22:30,316 Speaker 1: on super thin cardstock. Skinner, in front of his students, 347 00:22:30,516 --> 00:22:33,436 Speaker 1: guessed one hundred out of a hundred cards correctly. He 348 00:22:33,516 --> 00:22:36,036 Speaker 1: tore Rhine apart in reviews, and he also wrote him 349 00:22:36,036 --> 00:22:40,636 Speaker 1: privately to damn his work. This is only another example 350 00:22:40,676 --> 00:22:42,756 Speaker 1: of the kind of thing which is responsible for the 351 00:22:42,796 --> 00:22:45,316 Speaker 1: failure of many of us to take your work seriously. 352 00:22:45,716 --> 00:22:49,276 Speaker 1: I say that in all friendliness. Skinner and his fellow 353 00:22:49,276 --> 00:22:52,916 Speaker 1: behaviorists were reacting to the messiness of theories like Rhins 354 00:22:53,036 --> 00:22:56,276 Speaker 1: or Freud's. They thought there was only one way you 355 00:22:56,276 --> 00:23:00,076 Speaker 1: could know scientifically what was going on inside another person's mind. 356 00:23:00,916 --> 00:23:04,276 Speaker 1: That was to observe their behavior. A lot of behaviorists 357 00:23:04,356 --> 00:23:08,476 Speaker 1: studied animals and then applied those lessons to humans. Their 358 00:23:08,516 --> 00:23:12,876 Speaker 1: experiments hugely influential, but they ran on principles that seem 359 00:23:12,916 --> 00:23:15,996 Speaker 1: to ignore the very things that distinguish humans from rats. 360 00:23:16,996 --> 00:23:19,276 Speaker 1: Most people want to believe in something more than what 361 00:23:19,316 --> 00:23:23,076 Speaker 1: they can see with their own eyes. Maury Bernstein certainly did. 362 00:23:23,836 --> 00:23:26,836 Speaker 1: He wrote, now, at last, there is scientific evidence that 363 00:23:26,916 --> 00:23:29,756 Speaker 1: men are something more than bodies, that they have minds 364 00:23:29,796 --> 00:23:35,196 Speaker 1: with freedom from physical law, freedom from the physical That's 365 00:23:35,196 --> 00:23:39,396 Speaker 1: why back in Pueblo, Bernstein decided to run a different 366 00:23:39,436 --> 00:23:43,556 Speaker 1: set of experiments to find out what happens to us 367 00:23:43,916 --> 00:23:50,876 Speaker 1: after we die. Your name is what Freddy? Just months 368 00:23:50,916 --> 00:23:54,756 Speaker 1: after Bernstein left Ryan's lab, Virginia Ties had for that 369 00:23:54,876 --> 00:23:59,876 Speaker 1: first faithful hypnosis session, an experiment to explore whether we 370 00:23:59,916 --> 00:24:04,556 Speaker 1: live once or over and over again? Do you know 371 00:24:04,596 --> 00:24:10,956 Speaker 1: what year it is? Bernstein pushed, improbed, and eventually out 372 00:24:10,956 --> 00:24:13,356 Speaker 1: of a twenty nine year old American's mouth came a 373 00:24:13,476 --> 00:24:18,236 Speaker 1: nineteenth century Irish woman. What are you studying? Oh to 374 00:24:18,316 --> 00:24:22,396 Speaker 1: be a lady? What are some Irish words? What's great? 375 00:24:22,916 --> 00:24:26,436 Speaker 1: What does that mean? Oh? So a little cup that 376 00:24:26,636 --> 00:24:31,716 Speaker 1: you drink out of and you wish shot it? Very 377 00:24:33,116 --> 00:24:38,316 Speaker 1: very Irish. From these bits and pieces, Bernstein tried to 378 00:24:38,316 --> 00:24:43,276 Speaker 1: discern the very fabric of the universe. You remember the 379 00:24:43,356 --> 00:24:52,476 Speaker 1: day you died? That was awesome day. I remember this. 380 00:24:52,796 --> 00:25:00,236 Speaker 1: Brie was to church and observed. Truly. I was so 381 00:25:00,316 --> 00:25:02,956 Speaker 1: excited when I found out that Bernstein had recorded his 382 00:25:03,036 --> 00:25:08,476 Speaker 1: hypnosis sessions. But then listening to the tapes felt invasive, voyeuristic. 383 00:25:09,156 --> 00:25:12,756 Speaker 1: Bernstein thought of himself as communing with the dead, But 384 00:25:12,876 --> 00:25:17,036 Speaker 1: the more you listen, the creepier it sounds. Can you 385 00:25:17,116 --> 00:25:19,916 Speaker 1: tell us what happened after your death? How? What was 386 00:25:19,956 --> 00:25:24,196 Speaker 1: it like? Would you like where you were? Yes? Was 387 00:25:24,236 --> 00:25:29,556 Speaker 1: it better than your life on earth? Oh? It wasn't. 388 00:25:28,716 --> 00:25:37,356 Speaker 1: Oh that primal scene woman on couch, man leaning over 389 00:25:37,436 --> 00:25:43,516 Speaker 1: her mesmer Freud's skinner. Bernstein the sexual politics of the 390 00:25:43,556 --> 00:25:48,956 Speaker 1: psychological laboratory. All these men experimenting on all these women, 391 00:25:51,276 --> 00:25:56,476 Speaker 1: like there's this um. I remember when Harvard brought over 392 00:25:56,516 --> 00:26:00,796 Speaker 1: the German experimental psychologists. You go Munsterberg to found its 393 00:26:00,796 --> 00:26:05,156 Speaker 1: experimental psychological Laboratory, because William James was all, I don't 394 00:26:05,316 --> 00:26:07,796 Speaker 1: do that kind of thing. He would do all this 395 00:26:07,916 --> 00:26:11,396 Speaker 1: experiments on women. Gertrude Stein was at Radcliffe. Then she 396 00:26:11,596 --> 00:26:14,676 Speaker 1: knows and she writes this thing she chose, like I 397 00:26:14,796 --> 00:26:17,756 Speaker 1: think doing like a senior thesis or something. She's like, yeah, 398 00:26:17,796 --> 00:26:21,196 Speaker 1: but he just likes to tie up women. It is 399 00:26:21,436 --> 00:26:26,276 Speaker 1: literally infantilizing. What do you say when you want a 400 00:26:26,356 --> 00:26:36,036 Speaker 1: drink of water? Oh? Well, like other than Stein, aren't 401 00:26:36,036 --> 00:26:39,876 Speaker 1: they like? Do we have to wait until Betty Freedan 402 00:26:39,996 --> 00:26:43,756 Speaker 1: before someone is like all right, guys, the jig is up? 403 00:26:43,956 --> 00:26:50,396 Speaker 1: Like maybe that's what Bridie Murphy is. Yeah, we decided 404 00:26:50,436 --> 00:26:53,076 Speaker 1: we should try to flip the script. Jill read up 405 00:26:53,076 --> 00:26:55,676 Speaker 1: on how to hypnotize people, or at least she claimed 406 00:26:55,676 --> 00:26:57,596 Speaker 1: that she read up on it, but I don't really 407 00:26:57,596 --> 00:27:01,436 Speaker 1: think she did. I honestly was not wild about getting hypnotized, 408 00:27:01,596 --> 00:27:03,916 Speaker 1: but I figured I'd go along with it. Turn about 409 00:27:03,996 --> 00:27:08,236 Speaker 1: is fair play. So one buggy summer night, Jill came 410 00:27:08,236 --> 00:27:10,556 Speaker 1: out to the cabin holding a candle in this like 411 00:27:10,756 --> 00:27:13,516 Speaker 1: eighteenth century candle holder, which I guess she just has 412 00:27:13,596 --> 00:27:17,116 Speaker 1: lying around the house Benjamin Franklin style. And she tried 413 00:27:17,236 --> 00:27:21,116 Speaker 1: to put me under. And now I want you to 414 00:27:21,436 --> 00:27:26,116 Speaker 1: begin as you continue breathing slowly and deliberately, looking at 415 00:27:26,116 --> 00:27:30,716 Speaker 1: the candle flame on a single candle in front of you, 416 00:27:31,996 --> 00:27:36,636 Speaker 1: and I want to ask you now. I want to 417 00:27:36,676 --> 00:27:44,036 Speaker 1: ask you now to fall asleep at the count of three, three, 418 00:27:45,796 --> 00:27:55,956 Speaker 1: two one. All right, We gave it our best shot. 419 00:27:56,196 --> 00:27:58,196 Speaker 1: It was really good. It's just like there was a 420 00:27:58,276 --> 00:28:04,236 Speaker 1: mosquito on my forehead, and Vermont Midsummer lots of mosquitoes. 421 00:28:04,556 --> 00:28:10,876 Speaker 1: Our hypnosis session was a total bust. But Maury Bernstein's 422 00:28:10,916 --> 00:28:13,876 Speaker 1: Search for Bridey Murphy took a lot longer than ours 423 00:28:13,876 --> 00:28:18,436 Speaker 1: to peter out. Virginia Tie sat for six sessions and 424 00:28:18,556 --> 00:28:21,156 Speaker 1: then stopped. She wanted to get on with her life, 425 00:28:21,276 --> 00:28:25,436 Speaker 1: her future life, not her past. But Bernstein wanted to 426 00:28:25,436 --> 00:28:28,036 Speaker 1: make a name for himself. He got written up in 427 00:28:28,076 --> 00:28:32,396 Speaker 1: a Denver magazine. Then he signed a book deal. The 428 00:28:32,516 --> 00:28:36,676 Speaker 1: Search for Bridie Murphy was published in January nineteen fifty six. 429 00:28:40,716 --> 00:28:43,556 Speaker 1: The evening before it came out, Bernstein and his wife 430 00:28:43,596 --> 00:28:47,836 Speaker 1: went for a walk. They headed downtown they stopped in 431 00:28:47,876 --> 00:28:50,316 Speaker 1: the cold outside of bookstore and peered through the window 432 00:28:50,356 --> 00:28:52,796 Speaker 1: at a display of Bernstein's book, all set up for 433 00:28:52,796 --> 00:29:00,316 Speaker 1: the next day. But even a published paras psychologist couldn't 434 00:29:00,316 --> 00:29:04,796 Speaker 1: have known what that book would lead to. Oh the 435 00:29:05,076 --> 00:29:33,236 Speaker 1: love in my heart? Do you believe reincarnation? That you 436 00:29:33,436 --> 00:29:40,076 Speaker 1: have lived in the day of God? In nineteen fifty six, 437 00:29:40,276 --> 00:29:44,356 Speaker 1: when the search for Bridie Murphy hit bookstores, people went crazy. 438 00:29:44,956 --> 00:29:48,276 Speaker 1: Life magazine said the country was in a hypnotizzy. The 439 00:29:48,356 --> 00:29:52,356 Speaker 1: book was serialized in newspapers across the country, then translated 440 00:29:52,396 --> 00:29:56,276 Speaker 1: into thirty languages in thirty four other countries. It became 441 00:29:56,316 --> 00:30:00,196 Speaker 1: the number one bestseller in America. All told, it sold 442 00:30:00,436 --> 00:30:05,596 Speaker 1: six million copies. In Houston, a bartender started making a 443 00:30:05,676 --> 00:30:10,116 Speaker 1: reincarnation cocktail. I will now read the recipe. Please write 444 00:30:10,156 --> 00:30:12,396 Speaker 1: into the show if you can figure out how this 445 00:30:12,476 --> 00:30:16,396 Speaker 1: in any way relates to reincarnation. A jigger of vodka, 446 00:30:16,676 --> 00:30:19,956 Speaker 1: half a jigger of Maraschino liqueur, shaken with lemon juice 447 00:30:19,956 --> 00:30:28,116 Speaker 1: and crushed ice, and topped with a cupful of flaming rum. 448 00:30:28,156 --> 00:30:33,156 Speaker 1: Paramount Pictures bought the Bridy Murphy movie rights, And then 449 00:30:33,196 --> 00:30:39,236 Speaker 1: there were the songs, plus it on the banks of 450 00:30:39,356 --> 00:30:48,876 Speaker 1: the Nile. Oh what s hello? Triple le put me 451 00:30:49,036 --> 00:30:56,476 Speaker 1: in a dress for a while, Hit helo, come back 452 00:30:56,716 --> 00:31:04,156 Speaker 1: to me. Bridy Murphy was everywhere, but Virginia Tie wanted 453 00:31:04,196 --> 00:31:07,636 Speaker 1: to disappear. She asked not to be publicly identified in 454 00:31:07,716 --> 00:31:10,636 Speaker 1: Bernstein's book or the press. She tried to hide behind 455 00:31:10,636 --> 00:31:16,396 Speaker 1: a pseudonym. But Bernstein was loving it. He wouldn't do 456 00:31:16,596 --> 00:31:19,596 Speaker 1: radio and TV interviews because he felt he couldn't control them, 457 00:31:19,876 --> 00:31:23,476 Speaker 1: but that didn't stop him from talking endlessly at parties 458 00:31:23,476 --> 00:31:27,596 Speaker 1: and newspaper reporters about his great discovery. He'd say stuff like, 459 00:31:28,116 --> 00:31:30,716 Speaker 1: we may have opened a hidden door for just a second, 460 00:31:30,956 --> 00:31:33,996 Speaker 1: and without fully understanding what we have seen, we've had 461 00:31:34,036 --> 00:31:38,036 Speaker 1: an exciting glimpse of immortality. He worked the book, film 462 00:31:38,156 --> 00:31:41,756 Speaker 1: and audio angles. He released a record an LP of 463 00:31:41,756 --> 00:31:45,476 Speaker 1: that first hypnotism session. The Search for Bridie Murphy is 464 00:31:45,476 --> 00:31:49,116 Speaker 1: the true story of a skeptical young businessman who learned, 465 00:31:49,396 --> 00:31:53,036 Speaker 1: much to a surprise, that the wonders of hypnosis are 466 00:31:53,196 --> 00:31:59,436 Speaker 1: very real. Indeed, people listened, sometimes seriously, sometimes in a 467 00:31:59,556 --> 00:32:02,036 Speaker 1: kind of tongue in cheek way. They threw come as 468 00:32:02,036 --> 00:32:04,396 Speaker 1: you were parties. They wrote to Bernstein to tell them 469 00:32:04,396 --> 00:32:07,876 Speaker 1: about who they'd been centuries before. A hypnotist offered to 470 00:32:07,916 --> 00:32:10,836 Speaker 1: find people's past lives for twenty five bucks a pop. 471 00:32:11,116 --> 00:32:13,676 Speaker 1: He discovered one local woman had been a horse in 472 00:32:13,796 --> 00:32:16,556 Speaker 1: eighteen hundred, which maybe she should have asked for her 473 00:32:16,556 --> 00:32:20,036 Speaker 1: money back. People even used the Bridey Murphy story to 474 00:32:20,076 --> 00:32:24,476 Speaker 1: sell cars. He is hod end your search for Bridey Murphy. 475 00:32:25,196 --> 00:32:28,276 Speaker 1: This is real text from a real ad that ran 476 00:32:28,516 --> 00:32:32,476 Speaker 1: in a real newspaper. If you're looking for something out 477 00:32:32,516 --> 00:32:36,396 Speaker 1: of this world, see Bill Murphy. Selection of used cars 478 00:32:36,436 --> 00:32:39,956 Speaker 1: at prices that won't put you in a trance. These 479 00:32:40,036 --> 00:32:45,516 Speaker 1: cars are not a reincarnation, they're real cars at reuse savings. 480 00:32:47,916 --> 00:32:54,236 Speaker 1: But then America's reincarnation craze quickly shaded into nightmare. In Oklahoma, 481 00:32:54,316 --> 00:32:56,876 Speaker 1: a nineteen year old boy shot himself and left a 482 00:32:56,956 --> 00:32:59,716 Speaker 1: note under the windshield wiper of his truck, saying he 483 00:32:59,796 --> 00:33:02,996 Speaker 1: wanted to find out if he'd be reincarnated like Bridey Murphy. 484 00:33:03,996 --> 00:33:08,436 Speaker 1: Christians began to rail against Bernstein's book as sacrilegious. Ty's 485 00:33:08,436 --> 00:33:11,196 Speaker 1: family was curious at her for the same reasons she 486 00:33:11,196 --> 00:33:14,436 Speaker 1: couldn't keep the press away. Newsmen published her real name, 487 00:33:14,876 --> 00:33:18,676 Speaker 1: but some people just sent letters made out to Bridie Murphy. Pueblo, Colorado. 488 00:33:19,676 --> 00:33:22,836 Speaker 1: Reporters clamored for her to speak. Her marriage began to 489 00:33:22,836 --> 00:33:26,316 Speaker 1: fall apart. She went into hiding, hoping it would die down. 490 00:33:28,396 --> 00:33:31,516 Speaker 1: None of this made Paramount feel particularly good about the 491 00:33:31,556 --> 00:33:39,996 Speaker 1: film they were making. Flame means Fee Flames Sleep. Paramount 492 00:33:40,036 --> 00:33:43,236 Speaker 1: began tweaking the Bride Murphy story. They changed it so 493 00:33:43,316 --> 00:33:46,516 Speaker 1: the plot would make hypnotism look dangerous enough that people 494 00:33:46,556 --> 00:33:48,716 Speaker 1: wouldn't try it at home. And they wrote in a 495 00:33:48,756 --> 00:33:52,476 Speaker 1: scene where a Catholic priest and a Protestant minister reject 496 00:33:52,556 --> 00:33:55,716 Speaker 1: the idea of reincarnation. I have to say the result 497 00:33:55,836 --> 00:33:57,996 Speaker 1: is one of the worst movies I have ever seen. 498 00:33:58,316 --> 00:34:00,916 Speaker 1: And I've seen the other film about Bridie Murphy that 499 00:34:00,996 --> 00:34:06,036 Speaker 1: came out in nineteen fifty six, The She Creature. Under 500 00:34:06,116 --> 00:34:09,756 Speaker 1: his spells, she would both herself and another bee, the 501 00:34:09,956 --> 00:34:13,916 Speaker 1: She creature seeking life sustenance from the sullen hot piece 502 00:34:13,996 --> 00:34:20,396 Speaker 1: of OBUs. Legend has it that Hollywood's iconic creepy guy 503 00:34:20,516 --> 00:34:24,316 Speaker 1: character actor Peter Laurie, fired his agent for signing him 504 00:34:24,316 --> 00:34:28,476 Speaker 1: onto that project. Anyway, the Bridey Murphy phenomenon was completely 505 00:34:28,516 --> 00:34:34,836 Speaker 1: off the rails back in Vermont. In true last Archive fashion, 506 00:34:35,396 --> 00:34:38,156 Speaker 1: all these Bridey Murphy movies got us wondering about a 507 00:34:38,156 --> 00:34:42,156 Speaker 1: different film from nineteen fifty six. I really am a 508 00:34:42,196 --> 00:34:44,676 Speaker 1: sucker for the idea that science fiction tends to really 509 00:34:44,716 --> 00:34:49,476 Speaker 1: reflect what's really going on deeply in his society. But 510 00:34:49,596 --> 00:34:52,196 Speaker 1: Invasion of the Body Snatches is kind of a Bridey 511 00:34:52,276 --> 00:34:57,996 Speaker 1: Murphy story, right, Like it's the anxiety that we might 512 00:34:58,036 --> 00:35:02,036 Speaker 1: not be who we think we are. Suddenly, while you're asleep, 513 00:35:02,836 --> 00:35:06,556 Speaker 1: they love so of your minds, your memories. As the 514 00:35:06,676 --> 00:35:13,876 Speaker 1: unimaginable becomes real, the impossible becomes true. Okay, I am 515 00:35:13,956 --> 00:35:17,236 Speaker 1: hijacking this episode here for a minute, because I love 516 00:35:17,276 --> 00:35:23,996 Speaker 1: this movie. At first glance, everything looked the same. It 517 00:35:24,196 --> 00:35:31,676 Speaker 1: wasn't something evil had taken possession of the town. Invasion 518 00:35:31,716 --> 00:35:33,756 Speaker 1: of the Body Snatchers is a movie about a small 519 00:35:33,796 --> 00:35:37,076 Speaker 1: town in California where one by one, people are being 520 00:35:37,076 --> 00:35:40,756 Speaker 1: replaced by heartless aliens who look just like them but 521 00:35:40,836 --> 00:35:44,796 Speaker 1: aren't them because they're aliens. It's like Bridie Murphy showing 522 00:35:44,836 --> 00:35:48,676 Speaker 1: up in Virginia Tie's Body. The hero, Myles, is a 523 00:35:48,716 --> 00:35:51,716 Speaker 1: medical doctor, but in the end it's a psychiatrist, a 524 00:35:51,796 --> 00:35:54,996 Speaker 1: guy like BF Skinner, the behaviorist who tries to convince 525 00:35:55,076 --> 00:36:02,076 Speaker 1: myles to give in there's no pain. Suddenly, while you're asleep, 526 00:36:02,396 --> 00:36:06,996 Speaker 1: they'll absorb your minds, your memories, and you're born into 527 00:36:06,996 --> 00:36:13,956 Speaker 1: an untroubled world where everyone's the same exactly. People take 528 00:36:13,996 --> 00:36:16,556 Speaker 1: invasion of the Body Snatchers as an allegory for two 529 00:36:16,596 --> 00:36:21,756 Speaker 1: completely different things. Either it's about the perils of communism, 530 00:36:21,916 --> 00:36:24,396 Speaker 1: or else it's about the Red Scare, where Americans accused 531 00:36:24,396 --> 00:36:28,076 Speaker 1: each other of being secret communists. But really those are 532 00:36:28,116 --> 00:36:31,116 Speaker 1: just two versions of the same anxiety, that fear that 533 00:36:31,196 --> 00:36:34,916 Speaker 1: people can be remolded like rats and cages, sapped of 534 00:36:34,956 --> 00:36:51,156 Speaker 1: their individuality, turned into mindless conformists. Wake up, sheeple, Except 535 00:36:51,236 --> 00:36:54,356 Speaker 1: in nineteen fifty six people didn't say wake up, sheeple. 536 00:36:54,716 --> 00:36:58,476 Speaker 1: They said don't get brainwashed. Brainwashing was a new term then. 537 00:36:58,756 --> 00:37:01,436 Speaker 1: It had come out of the Korean War. People thought 538 00:37:01,436 --> 00:37:04,436 Speaker 1: of brainwashing as a kind of hypnosis that could take 539 00:37:04,436 --> 00:37:10,676 Speaker 1: American soldiers and turn them into communist robots. Let us 540 00:37:10,716 --> 00:37:13,836 Speaker 1: review once again the weaknesses in the American character. That's 541 00:37:13,876 --> 00:37:16,996 Speaker 1: an American documentary film made after the Korean War about 542 00:37:16,996 --> 00:37:19,956 Speaker 1: how communists in China and North Korea had found it 543 00:37:20,076 --> 00:37:26,556 Speaker 1: so easy to brainwash Americans. You, as instructors of American prisoners, 544 00:37:26,636 --> 00:37:30,836 Speaker 1: can exploit these weaknesses in order to control them. So 545 00:37:31,276 --> 00:37:33,276 Speaker 1: as I was trying to put all the pieces together, 546 00:37:33,836 --> 00:37:36,796 Speaker 1: it began to look to me like this. Men get 547 00:37:36,836 --> 00:37:40,756 Speaker 1: brainwashed as an active war. Women get hypnotized as a 548 00:37:40,796 --> 00:37:43,996 Speaker 1: parlor trick. But at the end of the day, everybody 549 00:37:43,996 --> 00:37:46,796 Speaker 1: in the nineteen fifties is doubting that they have a constant, 550 00:37:46,996 --> 00:37:54,716 Speaker 1: stable self. Your name is what, Freddie? It's the same 551 00:37:54,756 --> 00:37:57,796 Speaker 1: set of questions the psychologists were asking about people, and 552 00:37:57,916 --> 00:38:01,436 Speaker 1: people were asking about Bridie Murphy. Who are you? Who 553 00:38:01,476 --> 00:38:05,036 Speaker 1: are you? Or maybe in Bridie Murphy's case, who is 554 00:38:05,076 --> 00:38:09,396 Speaker 1: the real impostor? Because ever since Maury Bernstein first brought 555 00:38:09,396 --> 00:38:12,316 Speaker 1: the story of Bridie Murphy to the press, people had asked, 556 00:38:12,756 --> 00:38:16,956 Speaker 1: was Bridie Murphy of fake? Eventually newspaper editors sent reporters 557 00:38:16,956 --> 00:38:20,076 Speaker 1: to Ireland to fact check. Turns out, the kind of 558 00:38:20,116 --> 00:38:22,356 Speaker 1: iron bed she said, she scratched the paint off in 559 00:38:22,396 --> 00:38:26,596 Speaker 1: eighteen o two. There weren't beds like that in Ireland 560 00:38:26,596 --> 00:38:29,236 Speaker 1: for almost fifty more years. He went on like that, 561 00:38:29,676 --> 00:38:34,916 Speaker 1: detail after detail struck down until the final blow. A 562 00:38:35,036 --> 00:38:38,276 Speaker 1: reporter discovered that Virginia Tye had grown up across the 563 00:38:38,316 --> 00:38:42,156 Speaker 1: street from an Irish woman named bride Murphy Corkle, and 564 00:38:42,276 --> 00:38:45,076 Speaker 1: Ty had even had a crush on her son. The 565 00:38:45,116 --> 00:38:47,916 Speaker 1: search for Bridie Murphy started to come to an end, 566 00:38:50,076 --> 00:38:53,516 Speaker 1: Maury Bernstein wouldn't let it go. After the articles to 567 00:38:53,556 --> 00:38:56,716 Speaker 1: bunking Bridey Murphy came out, he began warring with everyone 568 00:38:56,756 --> 00:38:59,396 Speaker 1: who doubted him. He said those debunking reports got it 569 00:38:59,436 --> 00:39:02,156 Speaker 1: wrong and ignored all the strange knowledge Ty had about 570 00:39:02,236 --> 00:39:05,556 Speaker 1: nineteenth century Ireland. He met with a lawyer and asked 571 00:39:05,556 --> 00:39:09,596 Speaker 1: Ty if she'd give interviews, but she refused. She'd fallen 572 00:39:09,596 --> 00:39:11,996 Speaker 1: out with her family, her home life was in shambles, 573 00:39:12,516 --> 00:39:15,116 Speaker 1: and look, I don't think Tie was lying about Bridie 574 00:39:15,156 --> 00:39:18,436 Speaker 1: Murphy or about being hypnotized. I think she was just 575 00:39:18,516 --> 00:39:21,916 Speaker 1: semi conscious and stitching together a story at Bernstein's suggestion, 576 00:39:22,276 --> 00:39:27,796 Speaker 1: combining stray details from the past. But then again, things 577 00:39:27,836 --> 00:39:35,236 Speaker 1: do have strange afterlives. What is your name? Please? My 578 00:39:35,356 --> 00:39:39,956 Speaker 1: name is Virginia Tie. My name is Virginia Tie. My 579 00:39:40,036 --> 00:39:46,036 Speaker 1: name is Virginia Tie. Final least three ladies all claimed 580 00:39:46,036 --> 00:39:50,116 Speaker 1: to be Virginia Tie's got to cost examination with That's 581 00:39:50,156 --> 00:39:52,996 Speaker 1: a TV game show popular in the sixties called to 582 00:39:53,156 --> 00:39:57,516 Speaker 1: Tell the Truth Very Last Archive. In each episode, three 583 00:39:57,556 --> 00:40:00,596 Speaker 1: people all claim to be the same person, but only 584 00:40:00,596 --> 00:40:03,636 Speaker 1: one of them really is. The panelists have to guess 585 00:40:03,636 --> 00:40:06,356 Speaker 1: who none of three was the times that two went 586 00:40:06,436 --> 00:40:10,476 Speaker 1: into it in it was on purpose to find out 587 00:40:10,516 --> 00:40:13,436 Speaker 1: something like this or did it just happened? A first 588 00:40:13,716 --> 00:40:16,796 Speaker 1: trance was accidental? Accidental? And number two, how did you 589 00:40:16,836 --> 00:40:20,836 Speaker 1: happen to fall into this accidental first trance? I mean 590 00:40:20,876 --> 00:40:23,796 Speaker 1: other than hypnosis? Yes, yes, well I was it a 591 00:40:23,876 --> 00:40:26,676 Speaker 1: social contact the man that we knew personally? Ah, and 592 00:40:26,756 --> 00:40:29,876 Speaker 1: it just happened. And the number one was at the 593 00:40:29,916 --> 00:40:32,076 Speaker 1: time then that you began. It's not much fun if 594 00:40:32,076 --> 00:40:34,596 Speaker 1: you can't see them, so I'll just tell you that's 595 00:40:34,636 --> 00:40:38,636 Speaker 1: the real Virginia Tie. Number two, how extraordinary? Number two? 596 00:40:38,636 --> 00:40:39,996 Speaker 1: Did you remember anything when you came out of the 597 00:40:40,076 --> 00:40:41,756 Speaker 1: drandella and nothing? Well, how do you know they weren't 598 00:40:41,756 --> 00:40:43,836 Speaker 1: just putting you on when you woke up? Their shud 599 00:40:43,876 --> 00:40:48,276 Speaker 1: go what you should? I'd like to think they did. 600 00:40:48,756 --> 00:40:51,916 Speaker 1: This tape ten years after Bernstein's book came out. Is 601 00:40:51,956 --> 00:40:55,036 Speaker 1: the only non hypnotized audio that I could find of Tie. 602 00:40:56,076 --> 00:41:06,756 Speaker 1: Well there, Virginia Tie, please stand You hardly ever get 603 00:41:06,756 --> 00:41:09,396 Speaker 1: to hear Tie speak for herself in this story, just 604 00:41:09,556 --> 00:41:13,476 Speaker 1: Bernstein speaking Bridie Murphy through her. So I had high 605 00:41:13,476 --> 00:41:17,076 Speaker 1: hopes for the game show. But after the real Virginia 606 00:41:17,116 --> 00:41:19,476 Speaker 1: Tie stood up, finally stood up in front of a 607 00:41:19,516 --> 00:41:23,596 Speaker 1: mic her own self, the host just ended the segment. 608 00:41:24,516 --> 00:41:27,916 Speaker 1: I guess that's how the game is played. A fascinating story. 609 00:41:27,956 --> 00:41:29,596 Speaker 1: We thank you for bringing a dulas and hope you 610 00:41:29,676 --> 00:41:38,196 Speaker 1: enjoyed it too. Good night, and God left you. Tie 611 00:41:38,196 --> 00:41:40,796 Speaker 1: and her husband got divorced not long after that game 612 00:41:40,836 --> 00:41:43,516 Speaker 1: show aired. She moved on to a new life, but 613 00:41:43,676 --> 00:41:46,916 Speaker 1: she never lived the past one down. She died from 614 00:41:46,956 --> 00:41:50,996 Speaker 1: cancer in nineteen ninety five. I don't know what happened 615 00:41:50,996 --> 00:41:56,756 Speaker 1: to her after death. Maury Bernstein became a millionaire trading stocks, 616 00:41:57,036 --> 00:42:00,876 Speaker 1: but he became more and more withdrawn, angrier, and more controlling. 617 00:42:01,916 --> 00:42:04,596 Speaker 1: His wife divorced him. He moved into a small apartment 618 00:42:04,636 --> 00:42:07,276 Speaker 1: and never really left it. He stopped cutting his hair, 619 00:42:07,436 --> 00:42:10,316 Speaker 1: left stains on his shirt. People called him the Howard 620 00:42:10,356 --> 00:42:13,836 Speaker 1: Hughes of Pueblo. He liked to say that people didn't die. 621 00:42:14,276 --> 00:42:17,516 Speaker 1: They just went to Brideyville. But he did die in 622 00:42:17,596 --> 00:42:34,236 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety nine. His brother said it was malnutrition. But so, 623 00:42:34,316 --> 00:42:37,796 Speaker 1: the thing that I'm still struggling with trying to understand 624 00:42:37,836 --> 00:42:39,996 Speaker 1: this story and the whole of the twentieth cent true 625 00:42:40,036 --> 00:42:46,236 Speaker 1: which I am still babbled by, is what happened to 626 00:42:46,316 --> 00:42:49,876 Speaker 1: a tolerance for just uncertainty, Like, what about the kind 627 00:42:49,916 --> 00:42:55,076 Speaker 1: of mystical unknowability of why we do things? Jill and 628 00:42:55,116 --> 00:42:57,436 Speaker 1: I batted the meaning of this story around for a 629 00:42:57,436 --> 00:43:00,196 Speaker 1: long time out in that cabin, like in one of 630 00:43:00,236 --> 00:43:03,676 Speaker 1: those late night conversations in the hallway of your dorm room, 631 00:43:03,676 --> 00:43:07,356 Speaker 1: except in the middle of a global pandemic waiting for 632 00:43:07,396 --> 00:43:10,156 Speaker 1: the world to end. I'm not sure that the search 633 00:43:10,196 --> 00:43:13,076 Speaker 1: for Bridey Murphy produces a lot of doubt. Yeah. I mean, 634 00:43:13,076 --> 00:43:20,116 Speaker 1: it's like it's an artifact of our growing intolerance for uncertainty. Yeah, 635 00:43:20,236 --> 00:43:22,516 Speaker 1: and I'm going to nail this one down. Yeah, because 636 00:43:22,636 --> 00:43:24,196 Speaker 1: you don't want to be uncertain about what happens to 637 00:43:24,236 --> 00:43:32,596 Speaker 1: you after you die? Yeah, who you really are? I 638 00:43:32,636 --> 00:43:35,596 Speaker 1: don't think Bridie Murphy proved anything about who we really 639 00:43:35,636 --> 00:43:38,156 Speaker 1: are or about what happens to us after we Die. 640 00:43:38,996 --> 00:43:42,396 Speaker 1: Americans in the nineteen fifties never did settle those questions, 641 00:43:43,196 --> 00:43:46,436 Speaker 1: because those questions can't ever be settled all the way. 642 00:43:47,036 --> 00:43:49,516 Speaker 1: They're like a window you can't quite shut and the 643 00:43:49,596 --> 00:43:56,716 Speaker 1: draft keeps getting in. But I guess the thing about 644 00:43:56,756 --> 00:44:02,916 Speaker 1: all of these stories, Bridie Murphy, brainwashing, body snatchers, even 645 00:44:02,996 --> 00:44:07,556 Speaker 1: Freudiani is um just looking hit to the nineteen sixties. 646 00:44:08,556 --> 00:44:11,356 Speaker 1: It doesn't fare for to get to conspiracy theories from here. 647 00:44:13,476 --> 00:44:17,196 Speaker 1: We'll find out more on the next thrilling episode of 648 00:44:17,196 --> 00:44:20,036 Speaker 1: The Last Dark Eve from the Kevin in the Woods, 649 00:44:45,436 --> 00:44:49,196 Speaker 1: My Heart All the Time. This episode was written by 650 00:44:49,236 --> 00:44:52,556 Speaker 1: Ben Natt of Halfrey. It's produced by Sophie Crane mckibbon 651 00:44:52,716 --> 00:44:55,716 Speaker 1: and Ben Natt of Halfrey. Our editor is Julia Bartner 652 00:44:55,916 --> 00:44:59,596 Speaker 1: and our executive producer is Mia Lobell. Martin Gonzalez is 653 00:44:59,596 --> 00:45:03,716 Speaker 1: our engineer. Back checking by Amy Gaines's original music by 654 00:45:03,796 --> 00:45:07,916 Speaker 1: Matthias Bossi and John Evans of Stellwagen Symphinett. Our research 655 00:45:07,916 --> 00:45:11,676 Speaker 1: assistants are Olivia Oldham and Oliver Riskin. Cuts are full 656 00:45:11,716 --> 00:45:16,476 Speaker 1: Proof players are Yoshia Mao, Raymond Blankenhorne, Matthias Bosse, Dan Epstein, 657 00:45:16,636 --> 00:45:20,716 Speaker 1: Ethan Herschenfeld, Becka A. Lewis, Andrew Perella, Robert Ricotta, and 658 00:45:20,836 --> 00:45:24,356 Speaker 1: Nick Saxton. The Last Archive is a production of Pushkin Industries. 659 00:45:24,676 --> 00:45:28,236 Speaker 1: Head Pushkin thanks to Jacob Weisberg, Heather Fame, John Schnarz, 660 00:45:28,396 --> 00:45:32,836 Speaker 1: Harley Migliori, Christina Sullivan, Eric Sandler, Emily Rost, Maggie Taylor, 661 00:45:33,196 --> 00:45:36,796 Speaker 1: Maya Kanig and Daniella Lacan Special thanks to Simon Leak, 662 00:45:36,916 --> 00:45:39,836 Speaker 1: Vicky Merrick and the Pueblo Historical Society. Many of our 663 00:45:39,836 --> 00:45:42,076 Speaker 1: sound effects are from Harry Janet Junior and the Star 664 00:45:42,156 --> 00:45:45,196 Speaker 1: Jenett Foundation. If you like the show, please remember to rate, 665 00:45:45,276 --> 00:45:48,356 Speaker 1: share and review. To find more Pushkin podcasts, Listen on 666 00:45:48,356 --> 00:45:52,156 Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 667 00:45:52,396 --> 00:46:01,956 Speaker 1: I'm Jillapoor Bride. Speak to me, Briday, Speak Boya. Eyes 668 00:46:01,996 --> 00:46:05,756 Speaker 1: are full of the love for you, and this song 669 00:46:05,836 --> 00:46:13,396 Speaker 1: in my heart must be heard. Speak Briday, Yes, my love, 670 00:46:14,716 --> 00:46:21,836 Speaker 1: Bright Bright are you here? Yes, my love? What do 671 00:46:21,916 --> 00:46:29,596 Speaker 1: you see? Briday? Will we be together soon and for always? Always? 672 00:46:29,756 --> 00:46:43,356 Speaker 1: My love? Away, eternity, forever and ever. Oh, I've got 673 00:46:43,356 --> 00:46:50,156 Speaker 1: a feeling that I'm moving on from the soldier Thompson 674 00:46:50,356 --> 00:46:59,076 Speaker 1: gone and She'll be there right by my side when 675 00:46:59,116 --> 00:47:05,116 Speaker 1: I crossed the Great line. For the love of bright 676 00:47:09,596 --> 00:47:16,076 Speaker 1: in my heart all the time you list in my 677 00:47:16,276 --> 00:47:21,596 Speaker 1: heart a time