1 00:00:15,316 --> 00:00:15,796 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:22,236 --> 00:00:25,316 Speaker 2: I'm Michael Lewis and I'm Lydia ageene Cott, and we're 3 00:00:25,316 --> 00:00:28,476 Speaker 2: wrapping up our big short companion series on Against the Roles. 4 00:00:29,196 --> 00:00:31,916 Speaker 2: We've been hearing about the origins and consequences of the 5 00:00:31,916 --> 00:00:35,196 Speaker 2: two thousand and eight financial crisis, and today we're going 6 00:00:35,276 --> 00:00:39,516 Speaker 2: to talk about how it changed politics. Yes, in twenty eleven, 7 00:00:39,796 --> 00:00:41,876 Speaker 2: I was in college in New York actually, and I 8 00:00:41,876 --> 00:00:44,516 Speaker 2: remember showing up, I think, to like anthro or something, 9 00:00:44,996 --> 00:00:48,636 Speaker 2: and half the class was empty because people had gone 10 00:00:48,676 --> 00:00:54,436 Speaker 2: to protest on Wall Street. 11 00:00:55,516 --> 00:00:57,716 Speaker 3: Were you at all kind of tempted? 12 00:00:58,716 --> 00:01:01,996 Speaker 2: I was unfortunately too much of a loser to know 13 00:01:02,076 --> 00:01:04,716 Speaker 2: that this was like what people were doing, so. 14 00:01:05,156 --> 00:01:08,476 Speaker 4: I didn't go, here's your chance to make up for it. 15 00:01:09,476 --> 00:01:10,676 Speaker 5: Why why do you think, you know? 16 00:01:10,756 --> 00:01:11,956 Speaker 2: Why were people so angry? 17 00:01:12,276 --> 00:01:14,756 Speaker 4: They were a right to be angry. They were angry, 18 00:01:15,076 --> 00:01:17,796 Speaker 4: but they were angry for different reasons. I think the 19 00:01:17,916 --> 00:01:20,716 Speaker 4: gist of the anger was this sense of unfairness, this 20 00:01:20,836 --> 00:01:24,436 Speaker 4: feeling that we sort of sense that the world was rigged, 21 00:01:24,676 --> 00:01:27,236 Speaker 4: and now we know it's rigged, and it's rigged on 22 00:01:27,316 --> 00:01:31,876 Speaker 4: behalf of elites in finance in politics by people in 23 00:01:31,916 --> 00:01:35,116 Speaker 4: finance in politics. That the people who are the supposed 24 00:01:35,236 --> 00:01:38,156 Speaker 4: best and brightest, and certainly the most privileged, get to 25 00:01:38,196 --> 00:01:41,276 Speaker 4: take a pass on the harsh side of capitalism. Everybody 26 00:01:41,276 --> 00:01:44,236 Speaker 4: else When they fail, they fail, they go out of business, 27 00:01:44,316 --> 00:01:47,156 Speaker 4: they have to declare bankruptcy, they do things that are illegal, 28 00:01:47,156 --> 00:01:49,596 Speaker 4: they go to jail. But people who were sitting at 29 00:01:49,596 --> 00:01:51,716 Speaker 4: the top of the society being paid more than people 30 00:01:51,716 --> 00:01:53,556 Speaker 4: at the top of the society have ever been paid, 31 00:01:54,036 --> 00:01:58,996 Speaker 4: screw up the entire society, where their financial shenanigans, and 32 00:01:59,276 --> 00:02:02,756 Speaker 4: nobody goes to jail, and they get their bonuses still 33 00:02:03,316 --> 00:02:06,076 Speaker 4: and their banks are saved, even though they should have failed. 34 00:02:06,476 --> 00:02:10,076 Speaker 3: So it gave rise to a justified Bible. 35 00:02:09,916 --> 00:02:14,076 Speaker 4: Outrage that the rules did not apply to the people 36 00:02:14,116 --> 00:02:14,716 Speaker 4: at the very. 37 00:02:14,596 --> 00:02:18,396 Speaker 3: Top, and that outrage is still with us. 38 00:02:18,716 --> 00:02:21,676 Speaker 4: When I think about American politics right now, the first 39 00:02:21,676 --> 00:02:25,836 Speaker 4: thing that pops into my body is anger. It's like 40 00:02:26,156 --> 00:02:30,276 Speaker 4: the Trump phenomenon. Trump is he is selling anger, He's 41 00:02:30,316 --> 00:02:32,996 Speaker 4: selling grievance. It's why every day he has to have 42 00:02:33,036 --> 00:02:36,356 Speaker 4: another target to direct the anger. He's directing people's anger, 43 00:02:36,356 --> 00:02:39,116 Speaker 4: and he's making people feel good about being angry, and 44 00:02:39,156 --> 00:02:44,076 Speaker 4: the anger as the chief quality in American political life. 45 00:02:44,116 --> 00:02:46,236 Speaker 3: That starts here with the financial crisis. 46 00:02:46,956 --> 00:02:49,076 Speaker 2: So on today's episode, we're going to talk to two 47 00:02:49,236 --> 00:02:54,476 Speaker 2: people who took very different lessons or approaches to the 48 00:02:54,476 --> 00:02:59,036 Speaker 2: financial crisis. The first is Massachusetts Senator Elizabeth Warren. 49 00:02:59,356 --> 00:03:03,396 Speaker 4: Elizabeth Warren very smartly had been arguing for a long 50 00:03:03,476 --> 00:03:04,956 Speaker 4: time that this. 51 00:03:05,356 --> 00:03:07,636 Speaker 3: Border, this unholy border. 52 00:03:07,316 --> 00:03:10,596 Speaker 4: Between the American middle class and high finance, needed to 53 00:03:10,636 --> 00:03:17,036 Speaker 4: be patrolled. That if you let financial institutions at ordinary 54 00:03:17,036 --> 00:03:21,556 Speaker 4: Americans without anybody watching them, they're capable of doing lots 55 00:03:21,556 --> 00:03:24,476 Speaker 4: of bad things to them. And it is amazing how 56 00:03:24,516 --> 00:03:27,956 Speaker 4: easy it is to prey upon an ordinary person when 57 00:03:27,996 --> 00:03:31,396 Speaker 4: the subject is money. People get people are not their 58 00:03:31,396 --> 00:03:33,596 Speaker 4: best selves when they're trying to figure out whether to 59 00:03:33,596 --> 00:03:37,596 Speaker 4: repay their credit card debt. And the financial crisis was 60 00:03:37,596 --> 00:03:42,436 Speaker 4: a catalyst for her ability to create the Consumer Financial 61 00:03:42,476 --> 00:03:43,236 Speaker 4: Protection Bureau. 62 00:03:43,396 --> 00:03:44,916 Speaker 3: I mean, she seemed to get what she. 63 00:03:44,916 --> 00:03:47,996 Speaker 4: Wanted as a result, and her course own political career 64 00:03:48,316 --> 00:03:49,996 Speaker 4: took off on the back of it. 65 00:03:50,236 --> 00:03:52,916 Speaker 2: And the second person we're going to talk to, you know, 66 00:03:52,996 --> 00:03:56,116 Speaker 2: the financial crisis was also a catalyst for him, the 67 00:03:56,156 --> 00:03:58,276 Speaker 2: former White House advisor Steve Bannon. 68 00:03:59,196 --> 00:04:03,556 Speaker 4: Yes, this is a strange and convoluted tale. I didn't 69 00:04:03,556 --> 00:04:08,276 Speaker 4: know this until fairly recently. But my first book about 70 00:04:08,316 --> 00:04:10,756 Speaker 4: Wall Street was Liar's Poker. It was about my own 71 00:04:10,796 --> 00:04:13,716 Speaker 4: experience working on Wall Street. I don't write the Big 72 00:04:13,756 --> 00:04:16,196 Speaker 4: Short if I don't write Liar's Poker. That I thought 73 00:04:16,196 --> 00:04:18,196 Speaker 4: of The Big Short as kind of the bookend to 74 00:04:18,276 --> 00:04:21,596 Speaker 4: Liar's Poker, that the world that I was describing back 75 00:04:21,636 --> 00:04:25,796 Speaker 4: in nineteen eighty nine had finally come crashing down in 76 00:04:25,836 --> 00:04:29,316 Speaker 4: two thousand and eight, and for reasons that you sort 77 00:04:29,356 --> 00:04:31,516 Speaker 4: of could see in the pages of Liar's Poker, though 78 00:04:31,556 --> 00:04:34,756 Speaker 4: I never would have predicted it. And Steve Bannon, as 79 00:04:34,796 --> 00:04:38,436 Speaker 4: it turns out, was in Hollywood when Liar's Poker came out, 80 00:04:38,836 --> 00:04:41,596 Speaker 4: became obsessed with the book, bought the movie rights to 81 00:04:41,636 --> 00:04:43,356 Speaker 4: the book with a group of people, set it up 82 00:04:43,356 --> 00:04:46,636 Speaker 4: at Warner Brothers, and was so involved that he went 83 00:04:46,676 --> 00:04:49,436 Speaker 4: and wrote his own script of the Liar's Poker movie. 84 00:04:49,596 --> 00:04:50,756 Speaker 2: Has he sent you the script? 85 00:04:51,636 --> 00:04:53,636 Speaker 4: I haven't seen it yet, but I am going to 86 00:04:53,676 --> 00:04:55,596 Speaker 4: make a point to see it, because god, you know, 87 00:04:55,636 --> 00:04:56,716 Speaker 4: just what an artifact, right. 88 00:04:57,516 --> 00:04:58,756 Speaker 3: I had to buy it off him. 89 00:04:58,836 --> 00:05:02,996 Speaker 4: But Bannon, you know, I interviewed him during Trump won 90 00:05:03,596 --> 00:05:08,076 Speaker 4: and it was really clear that although he was probably 91 00:05:08,156 --> 00:05:12,796 Speaker 4: always pretty folatile person, that he really became hypercharged and 92 00:05:12,836 --> 00:05:15,316 Speaker 4: politicized because of the financial crisis. 93 00:05:15,516 --> 00:05:18,316 Speaker 3: And I think he and Elizabeth Warren are. 94 00:05:18,156 --> 00:05:23,276 Speaker 4: Not opposites, but obviously their political lives are very different. 95 00:05:23,476 --> 00:05:26,076 Speaker 3: So I thought, we got to do an. 96 00:05:26,036 --> 00:05:29,716 Speaker 4: Episode about the political consequences of this event, and who 97 00:05:29,756 --> 00:05:31,156 Speaker 4: better to do it with. 98 00:05:31,276 --> 00:05:34,356 Speaker 2: Than these two After the break, We're going to bring 99 00:05:34,396 --> 00:05:36,596 Speaker 2: together two people who were hat being in the same 100 00:05:36,676 --> 00:05:40,276 Speaker 2: room together and probably never will be, Elizabeth Warren and 101 00:05:40,316 --> 00:05:40,996 Speaker 2: Steve Fannon. 102 00:05:41,476 --> 00:05:42,236 Speaker 3: Yeah, let's do this. 103 00:05:51,716 --> 00:05:54,076 Speaker 4: You know, so much craziness was happening in two thousand 104 00:05:54,116 --> 00:05:56,116 Speaker 4: and eight that we can almost forget that it was 105 00:05:56,156 --> 00:05:59,196 Speaker 4: a presidential election year, and that was the election that 106 00:05:59,236 --> 00:06:00,436 Speaker 4: sent Barack Obama to. 107 00:06:00,356 --> 00:06:00,956 Speaker 1: The White House. 108 00:06:01,436 --> 00:06:03,156 Speaker 4: It sent a few other folks to Washington in the 109 00:06:03,236 --> 00:06:05,796 Speaker 4: years following, including the person I'm about to chat with, 110 00:06:06,396 --> 00:06:09,876 Speaker 4: Massachusetts Senator Elizabeth Warren. I think it's fair to say 111 00:06:09,876 --> 00:06:14,116 Speaker 4: that no politician, even Obama, was catapulted by the financial 112 00:06:14,196 --> 00:06:17,356 Speaker 4: crisis into political life more directly than she was. 113 00:06:20,036 --> 00:06:23,876 Speaker 5: Michael Center Warren, how are you, Elizabeth? I'm fine, how 114 00:06:23,876 --> 00:06:24,276 Speaker 5: are you? 115 00:06:24,676 --> 00:06:28,276 Speaker 4: I don't feel I and you just go there right away. 116 00:06:28,396 --> 00:06:30,956 Speaker 1: I want to start with you personally. 117 00:06:31,596 --> 00:06:34,756 Speaker 4: When do you become aware that there is a financial 118 00:06:34,796 --> 00:06:37,356 Speaker 4: crisis and that this might have some effect on you. 119 00:06:37,996 --> 00:06:42,596 Speaker 5: Well, I become aware there's a financial crisis actually in 120 00:06:42,636 --> 00:06:47,116 Speaker 5: the late nineties. You can see it brewing because I'm 121 00:06:47,956 --> 00:06:52,356 Speaker 5: a professor who studies what's happening to America's middle class, 122 00:06:53,236 --> 00:06:57,036 Speaker 5: and we're starting to see these funny little blips in 123 00:06:57,076 --> 00:07:01,316 Speaker 5: the data that I was digging in on about home mortgages, 124 00:07:01,716 --> 00:07:07,076 Speaker 5: credit cards, and it looks like things are getting dicier 125 00:07:07,316 --> 00:07:13,076 Speaker 5: for Americans. And remember, Michael I teach bankruptcy. I'm watching 126 00:07:13,156 --> 00:07:19,356 Speaker 5: the families who are declaring themselves losers in America's great 127 00:07:19,476 --> 00:07:24,316 Speaker 5: economic game. That the people who are head over heels 128 00:07:24,316 --> 00:07:27,596 Speaker 5: in debt and show up at the bankruptcy court to say, 129 00:07:27,676 --> 00:07:29,836 Speaker 5: help me wipe out some of my debts and make 130 00:07:29,876 --> 00:07:31,516 Speaker 5: it back to dead Flatbrook. 131 00:07:32,076 --> 00:07:33,556 Speaker 1: You're seeing from a different perspective. 132 00:07:33,636 --> 00:07:35,916 Speaker 4: Yeah, with some of the characters in my book, saw 133 00:07:36,196 --> 00:07:39,276 Speaker 4: that people who had been involved in subprime lending or 134 00:07:39,316 --> 00:07:41,596 Speaker 4: watching the subprime limbers could see that there was this 135 00:07:41,676 --> 00:07:42,556 Speaker 4: building problem. 136 00:07:42,716 --> 00:07:45,916 Speaker 1: Yeah, connect the financial crisis for me up to. 137 00:07:45,956 --> 00:07:49,756 Speaker 4: Your political career, Like, how does it inflame your career. 138 00:07:50,116 --> 00:07:52,516 Speaker 5: So I understand all I've ever wanted to be was 139 00:07:52,556 --> 00:07:55,276 Speaker 5: a teacher. I started out as a public school teacher. 140 00:07:55,556 --> 00:07:58,116 Speaker 5: I ended up going to law school. When I go 141 00:07:58,156 --> 00:08:00,916 Speaker 5: to law school, I come out and I teach. That's 142 00:08:01,156 --> 00:08:03,356 Speaker 5: what I love doing. I love the classroom better than 143 00:08:03,716 --> 00:08:09,276 Speaker 5: anything on God's green Earth. So, I, though, am so 144 00:08:10,036 --> 00:08:14,356 Speaker 5: worried about what's happening to families as I'm watching the 145 00:08:14,356 --> 00:08:17,636 Speaker 5: build up to the crisis. So now it's two thousand 146 00:08:17,676 --> 00:08:20,076 Speaker 5: and two, it's two thousand and three, it's two thousand 147 00:08:20,076 --> 00:08:23,036 Speaker 5: and four, it's two thousand and five, and the only 148 00:08:23,116 --> 00:08:26,596 Speaker 5: response in Washington is to make it harder for people 149 00:08:26,636 --> 00:08:28,396 Speaker 5: to declare bankruptcy. 150 00:08:28,796 --> 00:08:29,356 Speaker 2: This is just. 151 00:08:29,516 --> 00:08:33,556 Speaker 5: Nuts, right. You can see that the problems are building, 152 00:08:33,636 --> 00:08:37,236 Speaker 5: that more and more people are getting cheated, trick trapped, 153 00:08:37,996 --> 00:08:40,716 Speaker 5: And so I end up writing this piece in which 154 00:08:41,436 --> 00:08:47,516 Speaker 5: I'm so frustrated because I point out that nowhere in 155 00:08:47,596 --> 00:08:51,396 Speaker 5: America could you buy a toaster that had a one 156 00:08:51,436 --> 00:08:54,956 Speaker 5: in five chance of bursting into flames and burning down 157 00:08:54,996 --> 00:09:00,196 Speaker 5: your house. But that right now in America, there were 158 00:09:01,756 --> 00:09:06,596 Speaker 5: bankers selling home mortgages that had a one in five 159 00:09:06,756 --> 00:09:10,716 Speaker 5: chance of costing the family their home, and there was 160 00:09:10,796 --> 00:09:13,196 Speaker 5: nobody to stop them, and they didn't even have to 161 00:09:13,276 --> 00:09:16,876 Speaker 5: warn you. So I put this out and I keep 162 00:09:16,916 --> 00:09:22,596 Speaker 5: getting deeper and deeper in the fight against what feels 163 00:09:22,636 --> 00:09:26,036 Speaker 5: like a storm that is man made. It is made 164 00:09:26,156 --> 00:09:31,676 Speaker 5: by these giant institutions and these financial geniuses, at least 165 00:09:31,676 --> 00:09:34,716 Speaker 5: that's how they describe themselves, you know, who have their 166 00:09:34,916 --> 00:09:38,836 Speaker 5: hands on the levers. It's like they're just fucking up 167 00:09:39,036 --> 00:09:44,396 Speaker 5: families across America like's some giant mower, and then just 168 00:09:44,636 --> 00:09:47,996 Speaker 5: chopping them up financially and spitting out the bones. 169 00:09:48,516 --> 00:09:49,516 Speaker 1: So you're getting angrier. 170 00:09:49,716 --> 00:09:55,356 Speaker 4: Oh man, Yes, I'm watching it in real time, all right, 171 00:09:55,396 --> 00:09:56,996 Speaker 4: So you're getting angrier. 172 00:09:57,316 --> 00:10:00,636 Speaker 1: Oh so now connected to your political career? 173 00:10:00,836 --> 00:10:04,676 Speaker 5: Okay? So then the crash of two thousand and eight 174 00:10:04,756 --> 00:10:08,476 Speaker 5: hits all of a sudden. Now we're in September of 175 00:10:08,516 --> 00:10:12,076 Speaker 5: two thousand. The markets are falling, and oh, now that 176 00:10:12,156 --> 00:10:15,236 Speaker 5: the markets are falling, this is worth paying attention to, right, 177 00:10:15,996 --> 00:10:19,836 Speaker 5: it's all tumbling. Congress is being called on to bail 178 00:10:19,996 --> 00:10:23,836 Speaker 5: out the banks and everyone else. I'm at home, still 179 00:10:23,876 --> 00:10:26,756 Speaker 5: doing my work. I'm madder in hell. And I got 180 00:10:26,756 --> 00:10:30,516 Speaker 5: a phone call one night and this very soft voice says, 181 00:10:30,636 --> 00:10:35,396 Speaker 5: this is Harry Reid, and I said, who, I am 182 00:10:35,436 --> 00:10:40,116 Speaker 5: so not tied in to Congress. I do not realize 183 00:10:40,676 --> 00:10:43,036 Speaker 5: that he is the Senate majority leader. 184 00:10:43,236 --> 00:10:44,196 Speaker 1: You didn't even know that. 185 00:10:44,516 --> 00:10:49,556 Speaker 5: Nope, I mean, I mean, I guess I maybe if 186 00:10:49,596 --> 00:10:53,276 Speaker 5: i'd seen it in context. And he said, we're going 187 00:10:53,356 --> 00:10:56,236 Speaker 5: to have to do this veil out and he said, 188 00:10:56,276 --> 00:10:59,956 Speaker 5: we need an oversight panel, and I want it to 189 00:10:59,996 --> 00:11:04,636 Speaker 5: be you. And I said, what it was like getting 190 00:11:04,676 --> 00:11:08,436 Speaker 5: a call in the middle of a war. The markets 191 00:11:08,436 --> 00:11:12,876 Speaker 5: are internal, people are literally wondering if our economy is 192 00:11:12,916 --> 00:11:15,556 Speaker 5: just going to be go back to the Stone Age, right, 193 00:11:15,596 --> 00:11:20,836 Speaker 5: if everything is going to collapse, And this call is 194 00:11:20,916 --> 00:11:24,796 Speaker 5: like your country needs you. And I said, what do 195 00:11:24,836 --> 00:11:26,516 Speaker 5: you want me to do? And he said, I want 196 00:11:26,556 --> 00:11:29,356 Speaker 5: you to lead this Congressional oversight the panel. I had 197 00:11:29,356 --> 00:11:33,076 Speaker 5: no idea what this thing was. And I said, well, 198 00:11:33,716 --> 00:11:35,076 Speaker 5: let me look and he said, no, I need an 199 00:11:35,116 --> 00:11:39,436 Speaker 5: answer and I said yes. And frankly, if I'd found 200 00:11:39,436 --> 00:11:42,436 Speaker 5: out that somehow mopping the floors was going to help, 201 00:11:42,836 --> 00:11:45,796 Speaker 5: I would go mop the floors. The call happens, By 202 00:11:45,836 --> 00:11:49,996 Speaker 5: the way, I'm having a bunch of students over for 203 00:11:50,276 --> 00:11:55,156 Speaker 5: dinner and the guy who's delivering the barbecue is at 204 00:11:55,156 --> 00:11:57,076 Speaker 5: the front door, and I'm trying to pay for it, 205 00:11:57,156 --> 00:11:59,156 Speaker 5: and I'm trying to talk to this guy named Harry 206 00:11:59,196 --> 00:12:02,196 Speaker 5: Reid on the phone who talks softly, and he's asking 207 00:12:02,196 --> 00:12:04,396 Speaker 5: me to do this thing, and our Golden Retriever is 208 00:12:04,436 --> 00:12:08,116 Speaker 5: like racing circles around my legs because of the barbecue. 209 00:12:08,396 --> 00:12:11,676 Speaker 5: So that's how I in my first political job. I 210 00:12:11,796 --> 00:12:14,796 Speaker 5: just say yes. So later that night, my husband, who's 211 00:12:14,796 --> 00:12:16,356 Speaker 5: out of town, I'm telling him about it. I said, 212 00:12:16,356 --> 00:12:19,156 Speaker 5: oh yeah, I said, I got this call earlier and 213 00:12:19,876 --> 00:12:24,996 Speaker 5: Harry Reid wants me to head up some oversight thing 214 00:12:25,116 --> 00:12:30,996 Speaker 5: for Congress. And my husband said, okay, what does it do? 215 00:12:31,116 --> 00:12:34,516 Speaker 5: And I said, I don't know. I wonder how I 216 00:12:34,516 --> 00:12:38,956 Speaker 5: could find health. So I look it up and find 217 00:12:38,956 --> 00:12:41,716 Speaker 5: out part of the compromise is they will have an 218 00:12:41,716 --> 00:12:44,316 Speaker 5: oversight panel and the Democrats will appoint three people. The 219 00:12:44,356 --> 00:12:49,756 Speaker 5: Republicans will appoint too, and I'm Harry Reid's appointee. 220 00:12:50,516 --> 00:12:51,916 Speaker 1: And what's this panel supposed to do. 221 00:12:52,916 --> 00:12:57,756 Speaker 5: We're supposed to oversee the seven hundred billion dollar dail out. 222 00:12:58,476 --> 00:13:01,356 Speaker 5: And that is literally the first thing I ever do 223 00:13:01,596 --> 00:13:07,036 Speaker 5: in Washington. I pull this panel together, and look, I 224 00:13:07,076 --> 00:13:10,996 Speaker 5: am guessing a lot of people thought fig leaves that 225 00:13:11,036 --> 00:13:13,716 Speaker 5: there'll be some oversight, but the banks are getting their 226 00:13:13,756 --> 00:13:16,916 Speaker 5: seven hundred billion and the world is all going to work. 227 00:13:17,036 --> 00:13:21,396 Speaker 5: Just's fine. But I was naive enough to think somebody 228 00:13:21,516 --> 00:13:26,116 Speaker 5: was serious about the oversight. So we put out a 229 00:13:26,156 --> 00:13:30,356 Speaker 5: report every thirty days about who was getting the money, 230 00:13:30,636 --> 00:13:34,036 Speaker 5: how it was being spent, what the authorization was for it, 231 00:13:34,596 --> 00:13:38,916 Speaker 5: and whether it was flowing down to help people who 232 00:13:38,916 --> 00:13:45,556 Speaker 5: were in trouble on these horrible mortgages and other financial products. 233 00:13:45,596 --> 00:13:50,516 Speaker 5: So we get this thing up and running and Obama 234 00:13:50,556 --> 00:13:55,716 Speaker 5: is now president and everybody realizes there's going to be 235 00:13:55,876 --> 00:13:59,476 Speaker 5: a change in the law. And that change is what 236 00:13:59,516 --> 00:14:02,516 Speaker 5: we now refer to as the Dodd Frank Law. Back 237 00:14:02,516 --> 00:14:04,476 Speaker 5: then was just we're going to have to do something. 238 00:14:04,476 --> 00:14:06,596 Speaker 5: We've got to rewrite the laws coming out of this 239 00:14:06,596 --> 00:14:10,076 Speaker 5: because people are just matter in the hell what's happened. 240 00:14:10,556 --> 00:14:14,756 Speaker 5: So we're going to put better oversight in place. And 241 00:14:15,396 --> 00:14:21,116 Speaker 5: that's when I said, Okay, it looks like to me 242 00:14:21,356 --> 00:14:26,076 Speaker 5: the door has opened just a crack. I want to 243 00:14:26,476 --> 00:14:31,476 Speaker 5: argue for a consumer agency to make sure that never 244 00:14:31,596 --> 00:14:35,836 Speaker 5: again do we build this much risk into the system 245 00:14:35,996 --> 00:14:40,676 Speaker 5: by cheating people on mortgages and credit cards and other 246 00:14:40,796 --> 00:14:45,596 Speaker 5: financial products. Now, back when I had first thought about that, 247 00:14:46,276 --> 00:14:49,276 Speaker 5: I would say we need this new agency, and people 248 00:14:49,676 --> 00:14:53,076 Speaker 5: just they would do eyeball rolls that truly must have 249 00:14:53,196 --> 00:14:54,396 Speaker 5: hurt their skulls. 250 00:14:54,996 --> 00:14:57,156 Speaker 4: This is it's interesting to be when did you first 251 00:14:57,196 --> 00:14:59,276 Speaker 4: conceive that it needed to be a new. 252 00:14:59,156 --> 00:15:01,796 Speaker 1: Agency as opposed to, oh, the SEC can do this. 253 00:15:02,316 --> 00:15:04,956 Speaker 5: Uh, maybe a year or two before the crash. 254 00:15:05,396 --> 00:15:08,116 Speaker 4: I think your insight is profound that there is this 255 00:15:08,516 --> 00:15:14,636 Speaker 4: border between ordinary Americans and finance that's toxic. People easily 256 00:15:14,676 --> 00:15:19,116 Speaker 4: fooled on this subject and buffaloed, and it has disastrous 257 00:15:19,196 --> 00:15:20,596 Speaker 4: life consequences for people. 258 00:15:20,916 --> 00:15:23,356 Speaker 1: That border needs to be policed. But the idea there 259 00:15:23,396 --> 00:15:25,836 Speaker 1: had to be a new agency that surprises me. 260 00:15:26,276 --> 00:15:29,516 Speaker 5: Okay, So think of it this way. While all this 261 00:15:29,716 --> 00:15:34,156 Speaker 5: risk is building up, while people are losing their homes 262 00:15:34,356 --> 00:15:38,956 Speaker 5: that they have poured their life blood into, there are 263 00:15:39,116 --> 00:15:43,476 Speaker 5: laws on the books, federal laws that would have stopped them. 264 00:15:43,756 --> 00:15:46,796 Speaker 5: There were disclosure laws. There were all kinds of laws, 265 00:15:48,116 --> 00:15:53,196 Speaker 5: but those laws were scattered among seven different federal agencies, 266 00:15:53,236 --> 00:15:57,396 Speaker 5: and they were nobody's first job. The FTC and the 267 00:15:57,436 --> 00:16:01,236 Speaker 5: OCC and the OTS and the FDIC, can we do 268 00:16:01,276 --> 00:16:03,916 Speaker 5: all the letters of the alphabet, you know? And the FED. 269 00:16:04,476 --> 00:16:09,036 Speaker 5: All of them had parts of the law, nobody had 270 00:16:09,196 --> 00:16:13,796 Speaker 5: any real expertise, and nobody would allocate resources to actually 271 00:16:13,916 --> 00:16:17,836 Speaker 5: enforce those laws. And so my idea was to say, 272 00:16:17,836 --> 00:16:21,836 Speaker 5: we don't need new laws as much as we need 273 00:16:22,436 --> 00:16:26,036 Speaker 5: a change in how we enforce those laws. So the 274 00:16:26,156 --> 00:16:29,716 Speaker 5: idea behind the Consumer Agency was you scoop those laws 275 00:16:29,796 --> 00:16:32,516 Speaker 5: up from the other agencies that work using them. Anyway 276 00:16:33,196 --> 00:16:36,236 Speaker 5: you put it with one agency, you give it the resources, 277 00:16:36,316 --> 00:16:39,276 Speaker 5: you tell it to develop the expertise, and then you 278 00:16:39,396 --> 00:16:41,676 Speaker 5: make it the effective cop on the beach. 279 00:16:41,796 --> 00:16:44,956 Speaker 1: How does it enter your head? I'm running for office. 280 00:16:44,636 --> 00:16:44,876 Speaker 2: So. 281 00:16:46,676 --> 00:16:51,876 Speaker 5: I love that agency, and President Obama appointed me to 282 00:16:51,876 --> 00:16:54,516 Speaker 5: come set it up, and we got to higher up 283 00:16:54,596 --> 00:16:57,796 Speaker 5: and be ready to hit the ground running on behalf 284 00:16:57,836 --> 00:17:03,276 Speaker 5: of American consumers. I spend months doing this in Washington. 285 00:17:03,436 --> 00:17:07,516 Speaker 5: I love this work. I understand what this agency can do. 286 00:17:08,396 --> 00:17:11,996 Speaker 5: And oh, I want to be the new director of 287 00:17:12,036 --> 00:17:15,916 Speaker 5: the agency. Right I'm just the temp who's setting it up. 288 00:17:16,876 --> 00:17:19,316 Speaker 5: I so want to be the head of the agency. 289 00:17:19,636 --> 00:17:25,316 Speaker 5: And the Republicans send a letter to President Obama and 290 00:17:25,556 --> 00:17:29,636 Speaker 5: say you want to get that agency set up. That 291 00:17:29,716 --> 00:17:34,116 Speaker 5: woman will never be confirmed to be the head of 292 00:17:34,116 --> 00:17:37,956 Speaker 5: the agency ever. We are telling you right now we 293 00:17:38,036 --> 00:17:41,796 Speaker 5: will block her until hell freeze is over. I don't 294 00:17:41,796 --> 00:17:44,236 Speaker 5: think those were their exactly words, but that was it. 295 00:17:44,636 --> 00:17:45,556 Speaker 1: Did that surprise you? 296 00:17:45,956 --> 00:17:48,516 Speaker 5: Actually, it kind of did. I was doing a big job. 297 00:17:48,716 --> 00:17:50,636 Speaker 5: You know, I was going to make this agency work. 298 00:17:50,716 --> 00:17:52,516 Speaker 1: You didn't personally offend anybody. 299 00:17:53,036 --> 00:17:55,476 Speaker 5: No, no, not that I knew of No. 300 00:17:56,076 --> 00:17:56,196 Speaker 3: No. 301 00:17:56,476 --> 00:17:58,156 Speaker 1: All I was doing was setting. 302 00:17:59,996 --> 00:18:00,636 Speaker 6: You exactly. 303 00:18:00,876 --> 00:18:03,396 Speaker 5: So Obama says to be You're not going to be 304 00:18:03,396 --> 00:18:10,956 Speaker 5: the head of the agency, and I, okay, I'll go back. 305 00:18:11,156 --> 00:18:14,676 Speaker 5: It's okay. I love teaching. I'm going back to Massachusetts 306 00:18:14,676 --> 00:18:18,876 Speaker 5: to teach. And Obamas says to me, no, go back 307 00:18:18,916 --> 00:18:23,076 Speaker 5: to Massachusetts and run for the Senate. Oh yep. Remember 308 00:18:23,236 --> 00:18:27,236 Speaker 5: there is a Republican representing Massachusetts at this point, guy 309 00:18:27,316 --> 00:18:31,836 Speaker 5: named Scott Brown, and he's coming up for reelection in 310 00:18:31,996 --> 00:18:36,516 Speaker 5: twenty twelve. So here it is twenty eleven. Take him on, 311 00:18:37,636 --> 00:18:40,516 Speaker 5: and I'm like, run for Senate. I mean, I don't, 312 00:18:41,236 --> 00:18:44,236 Speaker 5: that's not my I've never thought about running for office. 313 00:18:45,316 --> 00:18:48,196 Speaker 5: On the other hand, who's going to defend that agency 314 00:18:48,716 --> 00:18:51,196 Speaker 5: if I don't get in there and do it. So 315 00:18:52,116 --> 00:18:54,316 Speaker 5: I go back to Massachusetts and I get a bunch 316 00:18:54,356 --> 00:18:58,076 Speaker 5: of phone calls from people saying, Elizabeth, you should run 317 00:18:58,196 --> 00:19:00,436 Speaker 5: for the United States Senate. And then they say things 318 00:19:00,516 --> 00:19:04,276 Speaker 5: like you won't win, but you should run. And I 319 00:19:04,276 --> 00:19:07,876 Speaker 5: want to say no, Look, Democrats get a better sales pitch, right. 320 00:19:08,516 --> 00:19:12,356 Speaker 5: So I end up getting in the race, and you know, 321 00:19:12,636 --> 00:19:18,076 Speaker 5: I start out like like forty five polets behind or something. 322 00:19:18,156 --> 00:19:21,636 Speaker 5: I mean, it's it's nuts. I've never run for office before. 323 00:19:22,396 --> 00:19:27,596 Speaker 5: I just keep getting there and punching on family economic issues, 324 00:19:27,676 --> 00:19:30,836 Speaker 5: on costs going up, on getting cheated, and how it's 325 00:19:31,116 --> 00:19:32,556 Speaker 5: just not right. 326 00:19:33,116 --> 00:19:36,396 Speaker 4: You are a political consequence of the financial crisis. Yeah, 327 00:19:36,516 --> 00:19:39,196 Speaker 4: I want you to just quickly before we have to wrap, quickly, 328 00:19:39,236 --> 00:19:42,716 Speaker 4: explain to me why the anger that generates the Consumer 329 00:19:42,756 --> 00:19:47,076 Speaker 4: Financial Protection Bureau has sort of metastasized into this anger 330 00:19:47,076 --> 00:19:50,196 Speaker 4: against government that has enabled Trump to gut it or 331 00:19:50,276 --> 00:19:51,316 Speaker 4: to disable it. 332 00:19:51,756 --> 00:19:56,516 Speaker 5: People saw two thousand and eight as the banks got 333 00:19:56,596 --> 00:20:01,116 Speaker 5: bailed out, that not only did nobody go to jail 334 00:20:01,396 --> 00:20:04,876 Speaker 5: for having wrecked our economy. Hell, those guys didn't even 335 00:20:04,916 --> 00:20:10,556 Speaker 5: lose their jobs. They got bonuses. Meanwhile, ten million Americans 336 00:20:10,596 --> 00:20:14,396 Speaker 5: lost their homes, and I think a lot of folks 337 00:20:15,476 --> 00:20:20,996 Speaker 5: understand that. You know, things can be tough, but surely 338 00:20:21,076 --> 00:20:23,676 Speaker 5: we're all playing by the same set of rules, and 339 00:20:23,756 --> 00:20:26,996 Speaker 5: two thousand and eight proved no, we're not. The rules 340 00:20:26,996 --> 00:20:31,556 Speaker 5: are different for the billionaires. Maybe they always had been, 341 00:20:32,356 --> 00:20:36,476 Speaker 5: but the two thousand and eight crash and the response 342 00:20:37,076 --> 00:20:41,316 Speaker 5: to let those guys off the hook just rubbed that 343 00:20:41,556 --> 00:20:44,316 Speaker 5: ugliness in the face of millions of people. 344 00:20:44,756 --> 00:20:47,956 Speaker 1: Where's that feeling gone? Though? Why is it not still 345 00:20:47,956 --> 00:20:49,356 Speaker 1: there to sustain the institution? 346 00:20:49,916 --> 00:20:53,876 Speaker 5: Remember, government was the one that didn't hold them accountable. 347 00:20:54,556 --> 00:20:59,116 Speaker 5: Government was the one that didn't fight for the American people. 348 00:20:59,476 --> 00:21:03,116 Speaker 5: Government was the one it said, your hard earned tax 349 00:21:03,236 --> 00:21:09,276 Speaker 5: dollars are going to go to some billionaire and some company. 350 00:21:09,676 --> 00:21:14,196 Speaker 5: Damn some bank that is actually the bank that caused 351 00:21:14,356 --> 00:21:18,436 Speaker 5: you your home. You know, I don't blame people for 352 00:21:18,516 --> 00:21:19,516 Speaker 5: being angry over that. 353 00:21:20,356 --> 00:21:22,916 Speaker 1: Thank you so much, and it's good to see your face. 354 00:21:22,996 --> 00:21:25,316 Speaker 5: Happy to do it, you know, I'm always happy to 355 00:21:25,356 --> 00:21:25,796 Speaker 5: talk to you. 356 00:21:26,036 --> 00:21:26,876 Speaker 1: Bye bye, Elizabeth. 357 00:21:29,156 --> 00:21:32,156 Speaker 4: I want to thank Massachusetts Senator Elizabeth Warren for taking 358 00:21:32,156 --> 00:21:34,636 Speaker 4: the time to speak with me again. I say again, 359 00:21:34,716 --> 00:21:36,916 Speaker 4: because she actually shows up in our first season Against 360 00:21:36,956 --> 00:21:40,476 Speaker 4: the Rules. That was in an episode called the Seven 361 00:21:40,556 --> 00:21:44,396 Speaker 4: Minute Rule. We spoke back then about the Consumer Financial 362 00:21:44,436 --> 00:21:47,716 Speaker 4: Protection Bureau and how the first Trump administration was trying 363 00:21:47,756 --> 00:21:51,116 Speaker 4: to defang it. Now the second Trump administration has moved 364 00:21:51,276 --> 00:21:55,916 Speaker 4: from defanging to destroying the CFPB. When we come back 365 00:21:55,916 --> 00:21:57,556 Speaker 4: from the break, we're going to hear from a very 366 00:21:57,596 --> 00:22:00,676 Speaker 4: different type of political figure who rose to power after 367 00:22:00,716 --> 00:22:03,396 Speaker 4: the financial crisis, Steve Bannon. 368 00:22:08,916 --> 00:22:12,356 Speaker 7: The Volkswagen Beetle go from being Hitler's dream car to 369 00:22:12,516 --> 00:22:16,236 Speaker 7: a hippie icon. How did a disgruntled center fielder change 370 00:22:16,236 --> 00:22:19,996 Speaker 7: the business of sports. I'm Jacob Goldstein and on Business History, 371 00:22:20,356 --> 00:22:22,436 Speaker 7: my co host Robert Smith, and I dig into the 372 00:22:22,436 --> 00:22:25,956 Speaker 7: people and companies who created the modern world. Business history 373 00:22:25,996 --> 00:22:29,596 Speaker 7: is full of innovations and failures and insights into how. 374 00:22:29,476 --> 00:22:30,596 Speaker 1: Business works today. 375 00:22:31,076 --> 00:22:33,396 Speaker 7: At the end of today's episode of Against the Rules, 376 00:22:33,436 --> 00:22:35,756 Speaker 7: we're going to play a clip from our episode about 377 00:22:35,836 --> 00:22:41,156 Speaker 7: Jim Simon's decades ago. Simon's basically invented modern algorithmic trading, 378 00:22:41,396 --> 00:22:44,676 Speaker 7: and after a few early hiccups, including buying up all 379 00:22:44,716 --> 00:22:48,356 Speaker 7: the potatoes in Maine, Simon's built a machine that generated 380 00:22:48,516 --> 00:22:52,836 Speaker 7: incredible returns for decades. The show is called Business History, 381 00:22:53,196 --> 00:22:55,316 Speaker 7: and the previews coming up at the end of today's 382 00:22:55,316 --> 00:22:57,316 Speaker 7: episode of Against the Rules. 383 00:23:01,116 --> 00:23:04,676 Speaker 4: Steve Bannon has been many things, a naval officer, a 384 00:23:04,716 --> 00:23:09,396 Speaker 4: media executive, an investment banker, a political gadfly, a Pain 385 00:23:09,476 --> 00:23:14,876 Speaker 4: and White House advisor, and a prisoner. In twenty twenty two, 386 00:23:14,916 --> 00:23:17,556 Speaker 4: he was convicted of two counts of contempt of Congress 387 00:23:18,276 --> 00:23:21,156 Speaker 4: for failing to comply with subpoena to testify about the 388 00:23:21,236 --> 00:23:26,116 Speaker 4: January sixth Capital insurrection. He spent four months at the 389 00:23:26,116 --> 00:23:30,276 Speaker 4: low security federal prison in Danbury, Connecticut. When I called 390 00:23:30,316 --> 00:23:33,436 Speaker 4: him up, we spent some time talking about that time. 391 00:23:35,236 --> 00:23:36,956 Speaker 1: At Danbury. My job was. 392 00:23:36,996 --> 00:23:40,276 Speaker 8: They gave me a job in the education apartment. I said, okay, 393 00:23:40,276 --> 00:23:42,156 Speaker 8: I said fine. He says, we just had a guy 394 00:23:42,436 --> 00:23:44,676 Speaker 8: leave a couple of weeks ago, and can you fill 395 00:23:44,716 --> 00:23:45,316 Speaker 8: them first course? 396 00:23:45,316 --> 00:23:47,836 Speaker 1: I go fine, what is it? And they go civics 397 00:23:48,916 --> 00:23:49,196 Speaker 1: and I. 398 00:23:49,276 --> 00:23:51,356 Speaker 9: Go, oh my god, Nancy Pelosi must have put him 399 00:23:51,436 --> 00:23:54,516 Speaker 9: up to this, right, Steve Bannison in prison for insurrection, 400 00:23:54,876 --> 00:23:56,396 Speaker 9: he's teaching civics. 401 00:23:56,476 --> 00:23:59,036 Speaker 8: And I would talk to two thousand and eight crash 402 00:23:59,036 --> 00:24:02,276 Speaker 8: and deficits, and you know how was bailed out the pandemic, 403 00:24:02,276 --> 00:24:07,156 Speaker 8: the holding boom boom boom, and I had super oversubscribed classes, 404 00:24:07,236 --> 00:24:10,196 Speaker 8: you know, principally black and Hispanic, principally young guys are 405 00:24:10,236 --> 00:24:13,676 Speaker 8: there on these non violent drug charges. And I tell people, 406 00:24:13,716 --> 00:24:17,316 Speaker 8: the thirst that they have to want to learn is unbelievable. 407 00:24:17,476 --> 00:24:19,516 Speaker 8: They want to figure out how the system works, as 408 00:24:19,516 --> 00:24:22,196 Speaker 8: nobody teaches it to them. And so I go through 409 00:24:22,236 --> 00:24:24,876 Speaker 8: the whole thing on the bailouts of the financial crisis, 410 00:24:25,356 --> 00:24:27,556 Speaker 8: and I go and one of the young guys in 411 00:24:27,596 --> 00:24:29,596 Speaker 8: the back goes, hey, mister Bannon, could you on the way, 412 00:24:29,636 --> 00:24:31,356 Speaker 8: could you do that again? It's slower this time. I 413 00:24:31,436 --> 00:24:33,876 Speaker 8: go fine, So I go back up do it again, 414 00:24:34,556 --> 00:24:37,196 Speaker 8: and he goes. He says, mister bannit is that actually 415 00:24:37,276 --> 00:24:40,596 Speaker 8: what happened. I go as close as possible, that's yes, 416 00:24:40,676 --> 00:24:41,916 Speaker 8: that's basically what happened. 417 00:24:42,356 --> 00:24:44,636 Speaker 1: And he goes and they call us the criminals. 418 00:24:45,956 --> 00:24:49,916 Speaker 4: If I'd met you in nineteen eighty seven or whenever 419 00:24:49,996 --> 00:24:52,556 Speaker 4: you were Goldman's acts, and we'd had a beer and 420 00:24:52,596 --> 00:24:54,516 Speaker 4: I was asking you just what your politics were, what 421 00:24:54,556 --> 00:24:56,076 Speaker 4: would I have come away thinking. 422 00:24:56,076 --> 00:24:59,436 Speaker 8: Goldman was very interesting because Goldman had a policy of 423 00:24:59,476 --> 00:25:02,116 Speaker 8: no hostile takeovers, No raids, no hostile raids. 424 00:25:02,356 --> 00:25:03,116 Speaker 1: We were defense. 425 00:25:03,316 --> 00:25:07,636 Speaker 8: I probably work on you know, twenty raid defenses against 426 00:25:07,676 --> 00:25:10,556 Speaker 8: Mike Milkin and direct so coming at these companies that 427 00:25:10,596 --> 00:25:13,916 Speaker 8: you go out to Toledo, Ohio, or to you know, 428 00:25:13,996 --> 00:25:16,596 Speaker 8: Wisconsin and Michigan. And they were very stodgy, right, the 429 00:25:16,756 --> 00:25:17,836 Speaker 8: management practices. 430 00:25:17,956 --> 00:25:20,516 Speaker 1: It was still very much mad men, right. 431 00:25:20,556 --> 00:25:23,476 Speaker 8: The executives were still going after the two Martini lunches. 432 00:25:23,516 --> 00:25:25,356 Speaker 1: I mean, it was quite sleepy. 433 00:25:25,796 --> 00:25:28,436 Speaker 9: And Milkin was coming in, uh, you know, and and 434 00:25:28,556 --> 00:25:30,836 Speaker 9: ripping and getting into these companies and taking the pension 435 00:25:30,876 --> 00:25:33,716 Speaker 9: funds and you know, getting annuities and taking the excess 436 00:25:33,716 --> 00:25:35,796 Speaker 9: and the pension funds because the stocks had gone up. 437 00:25:35,836 --> 00:25:37,396 Speaker 1: It was it was brutally. 438 00:25:37,436 --> 00:25:39,476 Speaker 8: I remember one of the guys, guy named mac Heller 439 00:25:39,516 --> 00:25:40,476 Speaker 8: from Harvard Law, that. 440 00:25:40,916 --> 00:25:44,156 Speaker 1: Was one of the vps, was a was a brilliant guy. 441 00:25:44,156 --> 00:25:47,076 Speaker 8: And he said, the river of history runs very deep 442 00:25:47,116 --> 00:25:48,836 Speaker 8: through this department. We were at eight I was at 443 00:25:48,916 --> 00:25:52,076 Speaker 8: eighty five Broad in the merger department, and he said, 444 00:25:52,076 --> 00:25:54,036 Speaker 8: the river of history is running very deep here. 445 00:25:54,036 --> 00:25:54,836 Speaker 1: And I go, what do you mean? 446 00:25:54,956 --> 00:25:58,756 Speaker 8: He said, because we're essentially restructuring the American economy and 447 00:25:58,796 --> 00:26:00,516 Speaker 8: therefore the global economy, and this is going to have 448 00:26:00,556 --> 00:26:03,876 Speaker 8: a massive impact on the country for decades to come. 449 00:26:04,196 --> 00:26:06,756 Speaker 1: So I want to flash you forward. Now. You went, 450 00:26:06,876 --> 00:26:09,316 Speaker 1: you think, then went out to Hollywood and the way. 451 00:26:09,396 --> 00:26:10,316 Speaker 1: Let me just brief pause. 452 00:26:10,316 --> 00:26:13,436 Speaker 4: In Hollywood, you mentioned that you had something to do 453 00:26:13,676 --> 00:26:15,556 Speaker 4: with the movie rights of Liar's Poker. 454 00:26:16,436 --> 00:26:20,796 Speaker 1: We option who wait wrote I wrote a script. I 455 00:26:21,116 --> 00:26:23,836 Speaker 1: had no idea you wrote a script of Liar's Poker. 456 00:26:23,996 --> 00:26:27,916 Speaker 8: I actually with John Valente thing Withdrick Valenti's son. He 457 00:26:28,036 --> 00:26:31,076 Speaker 8: and I went away for two weeks. I actually I 458 00:26:31,236 --> 00:26:32,876 Speaker 8: have to I think I still got it. Someone I 459 00:26:32,916 --> 00:26:35,436 Speaker 8: actually wrote a script thought was pretty damn good. Yeah, 460 00:26:35,596 --> 00:26:36,876 Speaker 8: first script I ever wrote. 461 00:26:37,116 --> 00:26:38,916 Speaker 1: One day. I would love to see that. No, no, 462 00:26:38,956 --> 00:26:40,516 Speaker 1: I gotta I'm gonna go dig it up now. I 463 00:26:40,676 --> 00:26:41,116 Speaker 1: don't want to. 464 00:26:41,476 --> 00:26:43,796 Speaker 4: I want to gift to the thing I wanted to 465 00:26:43,796 --> 00:26:45,956 Speaker 4: talk to you about now, and that is tell me where 466 00:26:45,956 --> 00:26:49,956 Speaker 4: you are and in your life and what the consequences 467 00:26:49,996 --> 00:26:52,876 Speaker 4: for you in your life are of the financial crisis. 468 00:26:53,036 --> 00:26:57,236 Speaker 8: I had bought a condo or co op down at 469 00:26:57,276 --> 00:27:01,796 Speaker 8: fifteen broad Right across from the Stock Exchange. I bought 470 00:27:01,796 --> 00:27:03,676 Speaker 8: it in like two thousand and six or something, and 471 00:27:03,716 --> 00:27:05,516 Speaker 8: I noticed every time I started coming in because I 472 00:27:05,596 --> 00:27:07,636 Speaker 8: was spending time in a lot of time in China, 473 00:27:07,716 --> 00:27:11,196 Speaker 8: a lot of time Internet, actually building businesses, financing stuff. 474 00:27:11,236 --> 00:27:13,676 Speaker 8: I came back. I noticed all the time. Now the 475 00:27:13,716 --> 00:27:17,516 Speaker 8: whole building was like foreigners. And I said, this is interesting, 476 00:27:17,556 --> 00:27:18,316 Speaker 8: what's happening here. 477 00:27:18,356 --> 00:27:19,076 Speaker 1: So I put it on. 478 00:27:19,076 --> 00:27:23,436 Speaker 8: The market in April of two thousand and eight, and 479 00:27:23,516 --> 00:27:25,876 Speaker 8: the broker at the time said, this will not even 480 00:27:25,916 --> 00:27:26,636 Speaker 8: get to the brokers. 481 00:27:26,676 --> 00:27:28,756 Speaker 1: This will sell, This will sell pre broker till you 482 00:27:28,796 --> 00:27:31,196 Speaker 1: go thing. This is a hot property, this is hot. 483 00:27:31,636 --> 00:27:35,676 Speaker 8: In July, I had had one nibble. Everybody had passed, 484 00:27:35,716 --> 00:27:38,396 Speaker 8: and I said, hey, somebody knows something. This thing's getting wobbly. 485 00:27:38,796 --> 00:27:43,516 Speaker 8: And then the financial crisis strikes, and I noticed that 486 00:27:43,596 --> 00:27:48,996 Speaker 8: when they put Lehman Brothers into bankruptcy, that they're not 487 00:27:48,996 --> 00:27:52,436 Speaker 8: thinking about the commercial paper market. They kicked Lehman Brothers 488 00:27:52,436 --> 00:27:54,556 Speaker 8: in the bankruptcy, I think at midnight in New York 489 00:27:55,156 --> 00:27:57,756 Speaker 8: for dawn the next day, and in London they've already 490 00:27:57,836 --> 00:28:00,396 Speaker 8: kicked it in the bankruptcy. The commercial paper market freezes 491 00:28:00,476 --> 00:28:03,836 Speaker 8: up the next day or Monday, I think it was Friday. 492 00:28:04,356 --> 00:28:08,436 Speaker 8: Kramer's on not just CNBC. I think he goes on NBC. 493 00:28:08,476 --> 00:28:11,996 Speaker 8: That's he gives the famous if you need cash in 494 00:28:12,076 --> 00:28:15,396 Speaker 8: the next five years, you got to get your cash. 495 00:28:15,796 --> 00:28:20,596 Speaker 8: My dad sells his AT and T stock, which he did. 496 00:28:21,036 --> 00:28:24,556 Speaker 1: You had the Catholic church and the phone company that 497 00:28:24,756 --> 00:28:26,436 Speaker 1: was and they were about equal. Okay. 498 00:28:26,476 --> 00:28:29,756 Speaker 8: My dad was very religious, you know, he's a weekly communicant, 499 00:28:30,156 --> 00:28:33,916 Speaker 8: go to Mass daily a lot, a very super religious guy. Boom, 500 00:28:33,956 --> 00:28:37,116 Speaker 8: he blows out because of Cramer and I go. 501 00:28:37,116 --> 00:28:39,716 Speaker 1: Oh my god. These companies are all fulling bankrupt. 502 00:28:39,756 --> 00:28:43,196 Speaker 8: And then you start to see the bailouts and you 503 00:28:43,276 --> 00:28:47,156 Speaker 8: realize they socialize the risk, make task for his pay 504 00:28:47,196 --> 00:28:49,396 Speaker 8: for it, and the little guys like Marty Bennett, and 505 00:28:49,436 --> 00:28:51,356 Speaker 8: I really started thinking about that. I go, good, Lord, 506 00:28:52,156 --> 00:28:55,396 Speaker 8: this guy has bought into the system. He's a systems player. 507 00:28:55,876 --> 00:28:59,636 Speaker 8: When my dad with the system, right, he just he's 508 00:28:59,676 --> 00:29:03,556 Speaker 8: a good householder. He's he's a priorial little guy, right. 509 00:29:03,676 --> 00:29:06,676 Speaker 8: But he puts his money away. He buys a company stock. 510 00:29:07,156 --> 00:29:09,556 Speaker 8: He believes in equities. He just bleeds with the company 511 00:29:09,556 --> 00:29:12,316 Speaker 8: tells you. He believes what the government tells you. He 512 00:29:12,636 --> 00:29:16,516 Speaker 8: is the backbone of the country. And I see that 513 00:29:16,596 --> 00:29:19,916 Speaker 8: that guy gets screwed for playing by the rules. All 514 00:29:19,956 --> 00:29:22,476 Speaker 8: the other people that were supposed to be the elites 515 00:29:22,476 --> 00:29:25,396 Speaker 8: were all freebooters. You're supposed to be the elites for 516 00:29:25,436 --> 00:29:27,876 Speaker 8: a reason. You get a better deal because you're the 517 00:29:27,876 --> 00:29:31,916 Speaker 8: manager of the system. They all fucked everybody right, and 518 00:29:32,396 --> 00:29:34,836 Speaker 8: the devil catched the hindmost. And that's what It had 519 00:29:34,876 --> 00:29:37,596 Speaker 8: a huge impact on me because I said, if the 520 00:29:37,636 --> 00:29:39,676 Speaker 8: Marty Bannons of the world are going to get screwed, 521 00:29:40,036 --> 00:29:43,316 Speaker 8: this system's not gonna, you know, exist the wars. I 522 00:29:43,316 --> 00:29:46,836 Speaker 8: had been anti the Iraq War, in Afghanistan war big 523 00:29:46,876 --> 00:29:49,196 Speaker 8: time because I saw, you know, from my experience as 524 00:29:49,236 --> 00:29:52,076 Speaker 8: a very junior Grandon, I just said, you know, these 525 00:29:52,116 --> 00:29:54,556 Speaker 8: wars are wrong, you can't win them, et cetera. But 526 00:29:54,596 --> 00:29:57,116 Speaker 8: then the financial collapse is what really And then I 527 00:29:57,156 --> 00:30:00,276 Speaker 8: became just the heart of a fire breathing, you know, 528 00:30:00,356 --> 00:30:02,796 Speaker 8: economic populist and economic nationalist. 529 00:30:03,756 --> 00:30:05,356 Speaker 1: What was the effect on your data? 530 00:30:05,436 --> 00:30:13,116 Speaker 8: This never is interesting, fascinating, never trusted the system ever again, 531 00:30:13,836 --> 00:30:16,636 Speaker 8: would watch TV and just would sit there. One time, 532 00:30:16,676 --> 00:30:19,996 Speaker 8: remember he told me during the height of the internet thing, 533 00:30:20,076 --> 00:30:21,916 Speaker 8: I think his AT and T stock, all of it, 534 00:30:21,956 --> 00:30:24,316 Speaker 8: combined with the house we bought the house like five 535 00:30:24,316 --> 00:30:27,596 Speaker 8: thousand bucks right in fifty seven. I think it was 536 00:30:27,956 --> 00:30:30,516 Speaker 8: all of his stuff combined. He actually became a millionaire 537 00:30:30,516 --> 00:30:33,236 Speaker 8: on paper for a moment in time of just a 538 00:30:33,276 --> 00:30:36,196 Speaker 8: guy that was a you know, a blue collar guy 539 00:30:36,236 --> 00:30:38,516 Speaker 8: that became a lower white collar you know. 540 00:30:38,436 --> 00:30:41,276 Speaker 1: And then and then it went away. He sold it. 541 00:30:41,276 --> 00:30:45,036 Speaker 8: It was still worth you know, hundreds of thousands of dollars, 542 00:30:45,116 --> 00:30:47,116 Speaker 8: so he wasn't wiped out, but from the peak and 543 00:30:47,116 --> 00:30:50,236 Speaker 8: then from it really when the collapse started, he left 544 00:30:50,236 --> 00:30:51,676 Speaker 8: a ton of money on the table if he'd just 545 00:30:51,716 --> 00:30:56,436 Speaker 8: seen it through, right. My dad, after that everything was 546 00:30:56,436 --> 00:30:59,436 Speaker 8: a very joinasi. He became one of the early Trump guys. 547 00:30:59,476 --> 00:31:01,996 Speaker 8: My dad died over one hundred at over one hundred 548 00:31:02,036 --> 00:31:04,916 Speaker 8: years old, but he was one of the very first 549 00:31:04,956 --> 00:31:06,876 Speaker 8: guys to come on the Trump train. And the reason 550 00:31:07,116 --> 00:31:10,196 Speaker 8: was he said, Trump will break things will he will 551 00:31:10,236 --> 00:31:12,356 Speaker 8: get this, he will totally turn this system around. 552 00:31:12,396 --> 00:31:12,956 Speaker 1: Because you can't. 553 00:31:13,036 --> 00:31:14,876 Speaker 8: The little guy's always going to get screwed here. 554 00:31:16,156 --> 00:31:18,796 Speaker 1: So draw me the line between the financial crisis and 555 00:31:18,876 --> 00:31:19,596 Speaker 1: Trump's rise. 556 00:31:20,396 --> 00:31:24,956 Speaker 8: I think it was seventeen September of two thousand and 557 00:31:24,956 --> 00:31:28,476 Speaker 8: eight that fuse was lit that went off. It blew 558 00:31:28,596 --> 00:31:32,996 Speaker 8: up in November eighth of twenty sixteen. My study history 559 00:31:32,996 --> 00:31:38,116 Speaker 8: shows every financial crisis you have a populist reaction to it, 560 00:31:38,556 --> 00:31:40,316 Speaker 8: and the elites don't know how to deal with it 561 00:31:40,516 --> 00:31:42,836 Speaker 8: right because they're still in the old model. And quite frankly, 562 00:31:43,236 --> 00:31:46,116 Speaker 8: they've protected themselves in that old model to still kind 563 00:31:46,116 --> 00:31:47,436 Speaker 8: of make it, you know, still kind of. 564 00:31:47,356 --> 00:31:48,116 Speaker 1: Make a run at it. 565 00:31:48,276 --> 00:31:51,076 Speaker 8: And it was pretty obvious to me that people had 566 00:31:51,076 --> 00:31:52,996 Speaker 8: had a belly full of this. And so from that 567 00:31:53,076 --> 00:31:56,716 Speaker 8: time on, is I thought that Trump. I thought Trump 568 00:31:56,796 --> 00:31:58,316 Speaker 8: was not just going to be the nominee, but I 569 00:31:58,356 --> 00:32:00,876 Speaker 8: saw a president of the United States there? 570 00:32:01,396 --> 00:32:02,396 Speaker 1: Did you think he was? 571 00:32:02,556 --> 00:32:05,116 Speaker 4: His rise was directly a result of the anger that 572 00:32:05,196 --> 00:32:06,756 Speaker 4: was generated by the financial crisis. 573 00:32:07,396 --> 00:32:09,396 Speaker 1: One million percent things. 574 00:32:09,676 --> 00:32:14,956 Speaker 8: The financial crisis coupled with you're now in the sixteenth 575 00:32:15,076 --> 00:32:16,276 Speaker 8: or seventeen year of the wars. 576 00:32:16,796 --> 00:32:19,116 Speaker 1: They don't end. They just don't end. 577 00:32:19,316 --> 00:32:23,236 Speaker 8: What the financial crisis did is I think brought to 578 00:32:23,276 --> 00:32:28,756 Speaker 8: the forefront the corruption of the neoliberal, neo conservative model. 579 00:32:28,836 --> 00:32:32,716 Speaker 8: It just doesn't work. American people are not dumb. Eventually 580 00:32:32,756 --> 00:32:35,556 Speaker 8: they will think it through and go, hey, I'm getting fucked. 581 00:32:36,156 --> 00:32:39,996 Speaker 8: We had not had a financial crisis and dude, I 582 00:32:40,076 --> 00:32:43,036 Speaker 8: was at Goldman Sachs. If you had done these bailouts, 583 00:32:43,196 --> 00:32:45,836 Speaker 8: and if Goldman Sachs had done it, you walk in, 584 00:32:46,556 --> 00:32:51,156 Speaker 8: you zero out management, You crush everything right, management will 585 00:32:51,196 --> 00:32:54,036 Speaker 8: get like ten percent maybe earning the twenty percent. Did 586 00:32:54,076 --> 00:32:55,556 Speaker 8: the American people get warrants? 587 00:32:55,836 --> 00:32:56,956 Speaker 1: Did they get options? 588 00:32:57,276 --> 00:32:59,396 Speaker 8: Their tax money went to the bailout and we got 589 00:32:59,436 --> 00:33:01,236 Speaker 8: what eight percent back in interest? 590 00:33:01,356 --> 00:33:01,996 Speaker 1: Is bullshit? 591 00:33:02,756 --> 00:33:05,636 Speaker 8: Nothing changed, right, You changed some management, but you didn't 592 00:33:05,716 --> 00:33:08,756 Speaker 8: change the incentive structure. So no, with no financial collapse, 593 00:33:08,796 --> 00:33:10,756 Speaker 8: you Donald Trump and. 594 00:33:10,836 --> 00:33:13,396 Speaker 1: Really overall, Trump kind of broke the mold. 595 00:33:13,636 --> 00:33:17,076 Speaker 8: People were so afraid of what they said right and 596 00:33:17,636 --> 00:33:20,596 Speaker 8: so precise and talked in this thing that didn't hit 597 00:33:20,676 --> 00:33:24,156 Speaker 8: people in the in the solar plexus because politics is 598 00:33:24,196 --> 00:33:28,916 Speaker 8: still ninety percent emotional, right, It's ten percent logic and rationality, 599 00:33:29,036 --> 00:33:30,916 Speaker 8: not the policies. But I'm saying the way it's presented, 600 00:33:30,956 --> 00:33:33,276 Speaker 8: and Trump was he was just perfect. And this I 601 00:33:33,276 --> 00:33:36,956 Speaker 8: said at the time, the reaction to Obama is going 602 00:33:37,036 --> 00:33:40,356 Speaker 8: to be not conservative. It's not going to be Republican. 603 00:33:40,436 --> 00:33:42,556 Speaker 8: It's going to be right wing. And if we play 604 00:33:42,596 --> 00:33:44,516 Speaker 8: our cards right, it can be even more right wing 605 00:33:44,556 --> 00:33:45,076 Speaker 8: over time. 606 00:33:45,556 --> 00:33:49,756 Speaker 4: If Obama had instead brought a hammer to it and 607 00:33:49,956 --> 00:33:52,596 Speaker 4: attacked the system as opposed to bail it out. 608 00:33:52,596 --> 00:33:55,316 Speaker 1: If you let the system fail, what do you think? 609 00:33:55,956 --> 00:33:57,716 Speaker 1: Number one? Number one. And this is why he's a 610 00:33:57,756 --> 00:33:58,476 Speaker 1: tragic figure. 611 00:33:59,036 --> 00:34:02,036 Speaker 8: You've got every person in the world telling you the 612 00:34:02,076 --> 00:34:05,556 Speaker 8: American financial system is going to collapse and the world 613 00:34:05,636 --> 00:34:08,396 Speaker 8: financial system is going to collapse afterwards, it's going to 614 00:34:08,396 --> 00:34:11,276 Speaker 8: be anarchy and chaos, and it'll take you fifty. 615 00:34:11,036 --> 00:34:11,796 Speaker 1: Years a dig out of this. 616 00:34:12,076 --> 00:34:13,876 Speaker 8: Who's got the balls to do that, who's got the 617 00:34:13,876 --> 00:34:16,396 Speaker 8: stones to do this, who's got the wisdom, the confidence 618 00:34:16,396 --> 00:34:19,876 Speaker 8: in themselves? And everybody around him said it had to 619 00:34:19,876 --> 00:34:22,596 Speaker 8: be bailed if he had done it, obviously he had 620 00:34:22,596 --> 00:34:25,236 Speaker 8: been a world hero and deserve the Nobel Prize and 621 00:34:25,276 --> 00:34:28,476 Speaker 8: deserve praises of his countrymen. But it's not gonna happen, 622 00:34:28,956 --> 00:34:31,516 Speaker 8: Marty Bannon. Stock's not gonna go. It's not gonna be 623 00:34:31,556 --> 00:34:35,196 Speaker 8: worth a couple hundred thousand dollars, It's gonna be worth zero, right, 624 00:34:35,236 --> 00:34:37,516 Speaker 8: and then you and then you explain to him how 625 00:34:37,556 --> 00:34:39,556 Speaker 8: you got a plan to build it back up. It 626 00:34:39,596 --> 00:34:43,556 Speaker 8: was the system saved itself. Now you look at what happened, 627 00:34:43,556 --> 00:34:45,956 Speaker 8: and this is why people say some progressive Obamacare. I said, 628 00:34:45,996 --> 00:34:48,756 Speaker 8: do you understand that's a side show. The main event 629 00:34:48,956 --> 00:34:51,956 Speaker 8: is that the elites protected themselves, and it also show 630 00:34:51,996 --> 00:34:52,956 Speaker 8: you something about our elites. 631 00:34:53,556 --> 00:34:56,196 Speaker 4: How would your path have been different? Let's say this counterfactual. 632 00:34:56,236 --> 00:34:58,236 Speaker 4: If there had not been a financial crisis, I. 633 00:34:58,196 --> 00:34:59,556 Speaker 1: Would I would have gone. 634 00:34:59,636 --> 00:35:03,276 Speaker 8: I would have been, you know, doing finance, buying and 635 00:35:03,316 --> 00:35:06,356 Speaker 8: selling companies, not involved in politics at all, you know, 636 00:35:06,516 --> 00:35:09,076 Speaker 8: on a yacht right now with I don't know thirty Bimbo, 637 00:35:09,556 --> 00:35:10,396 Speaker 8: I'm saying. 638 00:35:10,436 --> 00:35:13,516 Speaker 4: You've come quite a long way from being an M 639 00:35:13,556 --> 00:35:16,036 Speaker 4: and a guy at Goldman Sachs. You don't sound like 640 00:35:16,036 --> 00:35:18,316 Speaker 4: an M and a guy Goldman Sacks anymore. Do you 641 00:35:18,396 --> 00:35:21,076 Speaker 4: have any kind of relationship with your old financial life? 642 00:35:21,756 --> 00:35:23,596 Speaker 4: Do you still still see Wall Street people? 643 00:35:23,916 --> 00:35:26,356 Speaker 8: I still see and talk to a lot of the 644 00:35:26,436 --> 00:35:30,436 Speaker 8: guys from Goldman. If you get look the smartest guys 645 00:35:30,476 --> 00:35:33,716 Speaker 8: on Wall Street and this Goldman guys, they understand something. 646 00:35:34,116 --> 00:35:37,236 Speaker 8: The system has to change. The elites in this country 647 00:35:37,276 --> 00:35:40,076 Speaker 8: have a total choice. We either go down the path 648 00:35:40,076 --> 00:35:42,836 Speaker 8: where the country is and you're gonna get to Luigi 649 00:35:42,996 --> 00:35:46,396 Speaker 8: or Mandami. Okay, that's where you're going, or we can 650 00:35:46,396 --> 00:35:49,756 Speaker 8: start to have basic fundamental change here and avoid that 651 00:35:50,116 --> 00:35:52,356 Speaker 8: and actually try to get the country back on track 652 00:35:52,396 --> 00:35:56,316 Speaker 8: and prosper together, stopping the wars, having a more equitable 653 00:35:56,796 --> 00:35:59,916 Speaker 8: not just distribution of income, of work and effort, but 654 00:35:59,996 --> 00:36:03,556 Speaker 8: eventually equity. We have to set up a system that 655 00:36:03,596 --> 00:36:04,716 Speaker 8: the little guy thinks. 656 00:36:04,476 --> 00:36:06,876 Speaker 1: He gets a piece of the action. People can't be 657 00:36:06,956 --> 00:36:08,276 Speaker 1: here five generations. 658 00:36:08,516 --> 00:36:12,116 Speaker 8: I don't care what your race is, what your ethnicity is, 659 00:36:12,316 --> 00:36:13,436 Speaker 8: what your religion is. 660 00:36:13,476 --> 00:36:14,036 Speaker 1: I don't care. 661 00:36:14,636 --> 00:36:18,676 Speaker 8: You've built the churches, you've created civil society, you've coached 662 00:36:18,676 --> 00:36:21,076 Speaker 8: the little lages, you've served in the wars. You've done 663 00:36:21,156 --> 00:36:23,476 Speaker 8: everything you've been asked to do, and more that you 664 00:36:23,636 --> 00:36:26,316 Speaker 8: volunteered for. And here's what you got to show for it. 665 00:36:26,676 --> 00:36:29,356 Speaker 8: Your dick in your hand. You don't own anything. And 666 00:36:29,396 --> 00:36:31,676 Speaker 8: the average in comes fifty two thousand bucks, and the 667 00:36:31,676 --> 00:36:35,756 Speaker 8: average American has what under one thousand dollars in cash. 668 00:36:35,836 --> 00:36:36,796 Speaker 8: It's not going to work. 669 00:36:36,996 --> 00:36:39,196 Speaker 4: Trump doesn't seem to be doing anything about it. When 670 00:36:39,276 --> 00:36:43,116 Speaker 4: you when you lay this on Trump, what does he say, we're. 671 00:36:42,916 --> 00:36:43,516 Speaker 1: Working on it? 672 00:36:44,076 --> 00:36:46,356 Speaker 8: I think he's I think he's going through the tax 673 00:36:46,676 --> 00:36:48,196 Speaker 8: thing first, a big beautiful bill. 674 00:36:48,476 --> 00:36:49,756 Speaker 1: But I think you're going to get. 675 00:36:50,116 --> 00:36:53,316 Speaker 8: His look the supply side model with besting those guys 676 00:36:54,276 --> 00:36:56,636 Speaker 8: believed and I think the theory the case your last 677 00:36:56,716 --> 00:36:59,636 Speaker 8: chance for a supply side task cut was now. So 678 00:36:59,676 --> 00:37:04,596 Speaker 8: you incentivize people both with tariffs and with economics incentives 679 00:37:04,836 --> 00:37:07,636 Speaker 8: to bring you know, capital equipment, capital investment, you get 680 00:37:07,676 --> 00:37:10,076 Speaker 8: to depreciate it right away those people. In this way, 681 00:37:10,076 --> 00:37:13,236 Speaker 8: President Trump's more focused I think on getting investments here 682 00:37:13,236 --> 00:37:16,836 Speaker 8: in the country from around the world, right, which I'll 683 00:37:16,876 --> 00:37:19,436 Speaker 8: be honest, I'm that crazy about. But President Trump, in 684 00:37:19,476 --> 00:37:21,556 Speaker 8: his own way, I think has a plan. You can 685 00:37:21,556 --> 00:37:24,516 Speaker 8: see he's executing on it right and that plan I 686 00:37:24,516 --> 00:37:27,276 Speaker 8: think has to play out before you go to the 687 00:37:27,276 --> 00:37:29,876 Speaker 8: next phase and something that I think could be more radical, 688 00:37:29,916 --> 00:37:33,236 Speaker 8: and I tell people more radicals coming. The one thing 689 00:37:33,276 --> 00:37:35,476 Speaker 8: President Trump is doing, it's a full on assault on 690 00:37:35,516 --> 00:37:38,036 Speaker 8: the administrative in the deep state. When you have Scott 691 00:37:38,076 --> 00:37:40,876 Speaker 8: Besson who, as you know, is our candidate, and this 692 00:37:40,916 --> 00:37:43,996 Speaker 8: is where Elon got in a huge another fight because 693 00:37:43,996 --> 00:37:46,036 Speaker 8: Scott's a safe pair of hands on capital Marcus. 694 00:37:46,036 --> 00:37:46,556 Speaker 1: He's one of the. 695 00:37:46,476 --> 00:37:50,036 Speaker 8: Contributors at the war room for years. When Scott Bessont 696 00:37:50,076 --> 00:37:53,036 Speaker 8: writes a piece in the wall Street journal that talks 697 00:37:53,076 --> 00:37:57,436 Speaker 8: about literally breaking apart the Federal Reserve and giving up 698 00:37:57,476 --> 00:38:00,716 Speaker 8: most of its functions to other institutions and leave it 699 00:38:00,876 --> 00:38:01,796 Speaker 8: just in turl inflation. 700 00:38:02,316 --> 00:38:03,276 Speaker 1: I say that. 701 00:38:03,436 --> 00:38:06,556 Speaker 8: Brothers joined the revolution, okay, because this is going after 702 00:38:07,116 --> 00:38:10,596 Speaker 8: the major power, you know, the Sea, the Federal Reserve, 703 00:38:10,756 --> 00:38:15,196 Speaker 8: sentcom the major power institutions in the Imperial Capital. 704 00:38:15,356 --> 00:38:17,476 Speaker 1: So I think people should understand. 705 00:38:17,756 --> 00:38:19,436 Speaker 8: Now, this is what I tell people all the time, 706 00:38:19,996 --> 00:38:22,516 Speaker 8: the left that hey, Orange Man bad and hate him, 707 00:38:22,556 --> 00:38:25,556 Speaker 8: and you know MSNBC all night long it says Trump and. 708 00:38:25,476 --> 00:38:28,556 Speaker 1: Trump and Trump. They're gonna wish. 709 00:38:28,276 --> 00:38:30,676 Speaker 8: That Trump was still around in the future, They're gonna 710 00:38:30,716 --> 00:38:33,316 Speaker 8: wish Trump was still around. Trump is a kind of 711 00:38:33,316 --> 00:38:34,956 Speaker 8: a he's a Concervab, but he's kind of a moderate. 712 00:38:35,196 --> 00:38:38,076 Speaker 8: He's a New York City guy. He's he's a very 713 00:38:38,116 --> 00:38:41,236 Speaker 8: people person. He's got a big heart. He likes rich people, 714 00:38:41,516 --> 00:38:45,676 Speaker 8: but he's there's a lot harder to come after Trump. 715 00:38:45,756 --> 00:38:48,116 Speaker 1: And I think that's hopefully where we go. 716 00:38:56,116 --> 00:38:59,436 Speaker 4: That was Steve Bennon, now host of The war Room podcast, 717 00:39:00,196 --> 00:39:01,756 Speaker 4: and that about brings us to the end of this 718 00:39:01,876 --> 00:39:04,716 Speaker 4: special mini season on the Aftermath of the Big Short. 719 00:39:05,436 --> 00:39:06,516 Speaker 3: Thanks so much, for listening. 720 00:39:07,356 --> 00:39:09,556 Speaker 4: I'll be back in this feed from time to time, 721 00:39:10,636 --> 00:39:12,636 Speaker 4: but for now I'm off to work on my next book. 722 00:39:21,316 --> 00:39:23,396 Speaker 2: Do you have any last thoughts before we say goodbye 723 00:39:23,396 --> 00:39:24,636 Speaker 2: to the Big Story at Michael. 724 00:39:24,436 --> 00:39:27,236 Speaker 3: I do, Actually, yeah, my last. 725 00:39:26,996 --> 00:39:29,116 Speaker 4: Thought is, you know what, there's an interview I wish 726 00:39:29,196 --> 00:39:30,316 Speaker 4: I could have done and we didn't do. 727 00:39:30,436 --> 00:39:34,756 Speaker 3: Okay, Donald Trump? Oh yeah, that I want to talk 728 00:39:34,756 --> 00:39:35,556 Speaker 3: to Donald Trump. 729 00:39:36,236 --> 00:39:40,636 Speaker 4: Donald Trump, creature of Wall Street, financially irresponsible, all the rest. 730 00:39:40,916 --> 00:39:43,676 Speaker 4: But to what extent is he aware that he does 731 00:39:43,716 --> 00:39:47,316 Speaker 4: not exist as a political figure Without that event, I 732 00:39:47,356 --> 00:39:50,836 Speaker 4: feel like we're surfacing something that other people can run with. 733 00:39:51,556 --> 00:39:54,396 Speaker 4: This is a really big subject and it should be 734 00:39:54,436 --> 00:39:56,676 Speaker 4: alive and present in people's imagination. 735 00:39:57,156 --> 00:39:57,676 Speaker 5: Yeah. 736 00:39:57,836 --> 00:39:59,916 Speaker 2: I missed the two thousand and eight financial crisis when 737 00:39:59,916 --> 00:40:03,356 Speaker 2: it happened, and I thought it was like, no problem, 738 00:40:03,436 --> 00:40:05,756 Speaker 2: I never need to know about it. But I'm god 739 00:40:05,756 --> 00:40:06,516 Speaker 2: I learned about it. 740 00:40:07,636 --> 00:40:10,116 Speaker 4: I mean, you're living in its world. You're living in 741 00:40:10,116 --> 00:40:12,916 Speaker 4: the world it created. It sounds hyperbolic, but is not. 742 00:40:18,716 --> 00:40:21,676 Speaker 2: Against the rules. The Big Short Companion is hosted by 743 00:40:21,676 --> 00:40:25,156 Speaker 2: Michael Lewis. It's produced by me Lyddy, Jean Kott and 744 00:40:25,276 --> 00:40:30,476 Speaker 2: Catherine Giardell. Our editor is Julia Barton. Our theme was 745 00:40:30,516 --> 00:40:34,116 Speaker 2: composed by Nick Bertel, and our engineer is Hans Dale. 746 00:40:34,116 --> 00:40:40,276 Speaker 2: She special thanks to Nicole opten Bosch, Jasmine Faustino, Pamela 747 00:40:40,356 --> 00:40:44,796 Speaker 2: Lawrence and the rest of the Pushkin Audiobooks team, plus 748 00:40:44,956 --> 00:40:47,156 Speaker 2: to a few more people who made the season possible 749 00:40:48,236 --> 00:40:55,276 Speaker 2: Greta Cone, Jacob Weisberg, Sarah Nix, Christina Sullivan, Eric Sandler, 750 00:40:56,076 --> 00:41:03,396 Speaker 2: Morgan Rattner, Kira Posey, Jordan McMillan, Jake Flanagan, Owen Miller, 751 00:41:04,196 --> 00:41:09,316 Speaker 2: Sarah Daygrunge and Sarah Bruger. Against the Rules is the 752 00:41:09,356 --> 00:41:14,156 Speaker 2: production of Pushkin Industries. To find more Pushkin podcasts, listen 753 00:41:14,196 --> 00:41:17,916 Speaker 2: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen 754 00:41:17,916 --> 00:41:21,036 Speaker 2: to podcasts, and if you'd like to listen ad free 755 00:41:21,316 --> 00:41:24,516 Speaker 2: and learn about other exclusive offerings, don't forget to sign 756 00:41:24,596 --> 00:41:28,316 Speaker 2: up for a Pushkin Plus subscription at pushkin dot Fm, 757 00:41:28,356 --> 00:41:32,276 Speaker 2: Slash Plus or honor Apple show page. And you can 758 00:41:32,316 --> 00:41:35,436 Speaker 2: get the Big Short now at Pushkin dot fm, Slash 759 00:41:35,436 --> 00:41:39,076 Speaker 2: Audiobooks or wherever audiobooks are sold. 760 00:41:52,196 --> 00:41:54,316 Speaker 7: It's Jacob Goldstein. I'm the co host of a new 761 00:41:54,316 --> 00:41:57,276 Speaker 7: show called Business History and we're bringing you a clip 762 00:41:57,356 --> 00:42:00,236 Speaker 7: right now from an episode we did about a mathematician 763 00:42:00,316 --> 00:42:04,396 Speaker 7: named Jim Simon's. Simons wanted to take human emotions out 764 00:42:04,396 --> 00:42:08,396 Speaker 7: of investing, and after a few early hiccups, including buying 765 00:42:08,436 --> 00:42:11,236 Speaker 7: up all the Potatato's in Maine, he created one of 766 00:42:11,316 --> 00:42:14,516 Speaker 7: the greatest money machines in history. I really hope you 767 00:42:14,596 --> 00:42:16,476 Speaker 7: like the clip, and if you want to hear more, 768 00:42:16,556 --> 00:42:19,716 Speaker 7: please check out the show. It's called Business History and 769 00:42:19,756 --> 00:42:22,636 Speaker 7: it's available wherever you're listening right now. 770 00:42:23,596 --> 00:42:26,796 Speaker 6: They were doing what we would call today machine learning. 771 00:42:26,876 --> 00:42:31,236 Speaker 10: A machine learning is like essentially, you build a system 772 00:42:31,236 --> 00:42:33,156 Speaker 10: in a computer. You feeded a bunch of data and 773 00:42:33,196 --> 00:42:36,156 Speaker 10: the system sort of builds a map of the relationships 774 00:42:36,156 --> 00:42:38,396 Speaker 10: in that data, and then with new data it can 775 00:42:38,476 --> 00:42:42,076 Speaker 10: kind of interpolate or extrapolate and make guesses about. 776 00:42:41,836 --> 00:42:42,716 Speaker 1: What should come next. 777 00:42:43,076 --> 00:42:46,476 Speaker 10: And of course today we have an exciting, maybe misleading, 778 00:42:46,636 --> 00:42:48,676 Speaker 10: confounding term for machine learning. 779 00:42:49,196 --> 00:42:49,996 Speaker 7: We call it AI. 780 00:42:50,316 --> 00:42:53,676 Speaker 6: Exactly right, right, this is still very basic machine learning, 781 00:42:53,876 --> 00:42:57,636 Speaker 6: and the computer at the time keeps making mistakes that 782 00:42:57,676 --> 00:43:01,796 Speaker 6: they didn't really understand. So, for instance, once the computer 783 00:43:02,436 --> 00:43:08,636 Speaker 6: developed a taste for potatoes main potatoes, the system kept 784 00:43:08,756 --> 00:43:14,676 Speaker 6: by main potato futures in the state of Maine. Potato potatoes, 785 00:43:14,716 --> 00:43:18,796 Speaker 6: big harvest next year or whatever. Yes, okay, until two 786 00:43:18,916 --> 00:43:22,356 Speaker 6: thirds of the company's money was in potatoes. They were 787 00:43:22,396 --> 00:43:25,156 Speaker 6: all in potatoes. And they got a call from the regulators, 788 00:43:25,196 --> 00:43:26,316 Speaker 6: the cft A. 789 00:43:26,276 --> 00:43:29,556 Speaker 7: CFPP Commodity Futures Trading Commission right. 790 00:43:30,036 --> 00:43:33,356 Speaker 6: Saying, whoa who are you guys, Like, what are you 791 00:43:33,436 --> 00:43:36,836 Speaker 6: doing over there? You have almost cornered the market on potatoes. 792 00:43:37,276 --> 00:43:41,236 Speaker 6: You have to sell. And they ended up losing money 793 00:43:41,276 --> 00:43:45,036 Speaker 6: on the trade because blown out on potatoes. They had 794 00:43:45,196 --> 00:43:49,476 Speaker 6: stopped the computer whatever the computer's plan was. But you know, 795 00:43:49,676 --> 00:43:52,996 Speaker 6: this was just one small weird thing. Simon and Baum 796 00:43:53,716 --> 00:43:56,516 Speaker 6: were really kind of nervous about this whole thing. They 797 00:43:56,516 --> 00:43:59,236 Speaker 6: had taken investors money, they didn't really know if their 798 00:43:59,276 --> 00:44:03,596 Speaker 6: system worked. And as the story gets told, they start 799 00:44:03,676 --> 00:44:06,556 Speaker 6: to like second guess the computer and themselves, and they 800 00:44:06,556 --> 00:44:09,036 Speaker 6: start to think, well, I have this intuition the goal 801 00:44:09,156 --> 00:44:12,436 Speaker 6: it's going to go up because of the geopolitical situation, 802 00:44:12,676 --> 00:44:14,396 Speaker 6: and they'd make some money on that, and then they'd 803 00:44:14,436 --> 00:44:17,636 Speaker 6: lose some money on that, and so by doubting their 804 00:44:17,716 --> 00:44:21,436 Speaker 6: own system, it just wasn't really working. And at that point, 805 00:44:21,476 --> 00:44:23,996 Speaker 6: they're just Wall Street investors right with the big computer, 806 00:44:24,236 --> 00:44:27,156 Speaker 6: trying to buy more potatoes, and the man won't let 807 00:44:27,196 --> 00:44:28,076 Speaker 6: them buy potatoes.