1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:03,600 Speaker 1: Hey guys, Steve here, you are listening to one of 2 00:00:03,600 --> 00:00:06,600 Speaker 1: our original twenty six episodes. If you listen to any 3 00:00:06,640 --> 00:00:09,280 Speaker 1: of our new episodes, you're gonna notice that we're sounding 4 00:00:09,320 --> 00:00:11,639 Speaker 1: a little different in these ones. Yeah, there's a reason 5 00:00:11,680 --> 00:00:14,480 Speaker 1: for that. There is they've been remastered. They have been 6 00:00:14,520 --> 00:00:18,040 Speaker 1: remastered because they had a really annoying hum. Yeah, I 7 00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:21,480 Speaker 1: mean a huge thanks to listener James for doing almost 8 00:00:21,520 --> 00:00:23,880 Speaker 1: all of the legwork on this thing. They'll also notice 9 00:00:23,880 --> 00:00:25,880 Speaker 1: if you had listened to what we're calling the last 10 00:00:25,920 --> 00:00:29,639 Speaker 1: twenty six episodes before and you're re listening now, the 11 00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:33,160 Speaker 1: music and sound effects are gone. Yes, we've we've gone 12 00:00:33,159 --> 00:00:35,720 Speaker 1: back to straight audio, so be warned. We sound a 13 00:00:35,720 --> 00:00:38,040 Speaker 1: little different today than we do in what you're about 14 00:00:38,040 --> 00:00:47,320 Speaker 1: to listen to. Yeah, bye bye, Thinking Sideways. I don't understand. 15 00:00:50,080 --> 00:00:57,240 Speaker 1: You never know stories of things. We simply don't know 16 00:00:57,320 --> 00:01:02,400 Speaker 1: the answer too. Well. Hello there, welcome to another episode 17 00:01:02,400 --> 00:01:06,759 Speaker 1: of Thinking Sideways, the podcast fast distinct from Thinking Thinking Sideways, 18 00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:09,880 Speaker 1: the movie, Thinking Sideways, the novel. This is the podcast. 19 00:01:10,959 --> 00:01:15,319 Speaker 1: So I am joined by on my right and on 20 00:01:15,360 --> 00:01:18,600 Speaker 1: my left, actually straight in front of me, Steve. Yeah, okay, 21 00:01:18,720 --> 00:01:21,559 Speaker 1: so the gang's all here and we're gonna talk about 22 00:01:21,600 --> 00:01:26,399 Speaker 1: something very mysterious, unresolved mystery from the nineteen seventies. It 23 00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:28,520 Speaker 1: is for some of you may have even heard of this, 24 00:01:28,680 --> 00:01:32,360 Speaker 1: the case of the woman. The ideal woman was found 25 00:01:32,440 --> 00:01:37,880 Speaker 1: dead in late November nineteen seventy near a town called Bergen, Norway, 26 00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:41,959 Speaker 1: in what's called the Idlin Valley. The valley sort of 27 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:44,479 Speaker 1: tapers down towards this mount colt in this mountain called 28 00:01:44,520 --> 00:01:49,200 Speaker 1: Mount Olrican, which is to the northeast of Bergen, and 29 00:01:49,560 --> 00:01:51,240 Speaker 1: on the on the that side of the mountain, it's 30 00:01:51,280 --> 00:01:54,760 Speaker 1: called the Valley of Death. Yeah, I was gonna. I 31 00:01:54,800 --> 00:01:57,720 Speaker 1: was waiting for the connection of how Joe might have 32 00:01:57,720 --> 00:02:00,840 Speaker 1: found this story. Yeah, it's kind of thing for the 33 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:04,080 Speaker 1: death death. Yeah. I just go and type in value 34 00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:07,560 Speaker 1: of death, mountain of death, the river of death, Yeah, 35 00:02:07,880 --> 00:02:10,480 Speaker 1: leg of death, creak of death, total of death, you know, 36 00:02:10,880 --> 00:02:14,320 Speaker 1: and I always find something. So November twenty nine, on 37 00:02:14,440 --> 00:02:18,600 Speaker 1: the foothills of Mouth ol Rican, a man who's apparently 38 00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:21,239 Speaker 1: a professor and his two daughters were hiking and it 39 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:24,800 Speaker 1: came across the remains of a naked woman who had 40 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:28,000 Speaker 1: been hitting among some rocks. He was partially burned. There 41 00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:32,920 Speaker 1: were some empty bottles bottles was smelled of gasoline nearby, 42 00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:37,400 Speaker 1: also a bottle of sleeping pills. So they I don't 43 00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:39,360 Speaker 1: know if they finished their hik er not. Presumably they 44 00:02:39,360 --> 00:02:41,399 Speaker 1: walked back to town and got the police. Yeah, yeah, 45 00:02:42,560 --> 00:02:45,000 Speaker 1: I would think so. And by the way, this place 46 00:02:45,080 --> 00:02:47,880 Speaker 1: is called the value of death because there there's a 47 00:02:47,919 --> 00:02:50,040 Speaker 1: lot of trails there, which some of which apparently according 48 00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:52,000 Speaker 1: to a website I was reading about that was totally 49 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:54,840 Speaker 1: separate from this entire thing. Uh, some of the trails 50 00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:57,959 Speaker 1: are not very well maintained and it's considered rather treacherous. 51 00:02:57,960 --> 00:02:59,320 Speaker 1: So that's why it's called the value of death, not 52 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:02,440 Speaker 1: because parposes are cond up there all the time. So anyway, 53 00:03:02,440 --> 00:03:05,120 Speaker 1: I saw the police show up, and this winds up 54 00:03:05,160 --> 00:03:07,720 Speaker 1: being the biggest criminal case at the Bergen Police. It's 55 00:03:07,800 --> 00:03:10,120 Speaker 1: it's not a huge town by any means, and the 56 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:18,359 Speaker 1: right and now it's normally yeah, yeah, it's all the same. Ye. 57 00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:22,200 Speaker 1: So anyway I mentioned they found some plastic bottles wreaking 58 00:03:22,200 --> 00:03:26,000 Speaker 1: of gasoline, and they also found out partially burned passport 59 00:03:26,440 --> 00:03:29,080 Speaker 1: and again the sleeping pills. She also and had turned 60 00:03:29,120 --> 00:03:32,720 Speaker 1: out that upon upon the autopsy, that she had some 61 00:03:32,760 --> 00:03:35,560 Speaker 1: of those pills in her so she had taken a 62 00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:38,160 Speaker 1: couple of pills. She had taken she had taken several 63 00:03:38,200 --> 00:03:41,080 Speaker 1: of these things. Yes, some more interesting things. I mentioned 64 00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:43,720 Speaker 1: the passport and the sleeping pills. And this is one 65 00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:45,720 Speaker 1: of those those deleos where I really really would like 66 00:03:45,720 --> 00:03:47,760 Speaker 1: to be able to see the actual police reports, because 67 00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:49,600 Speaker 1: you know that what I've been able to round up 68 00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:52,520 Speaker 1: is kind of spotty. For example, the body is was naked, right, 69 00:03:53,120 --> 00:03:55,839 Speaker 1: so were there any clothes nearby? There's no mention made 70 00:03:55,840 --> 00:04:01,200 Speaker 1: of that clothes because you said she had been burned? 71 00:04:01,240 --> 00:04:05,839 Speaker 1: Correct her body? Selene connection is yeah, her body, Yeah, 72 00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:08,800 Speaker 1: he had been partially burned. That presumably they don't say 73 00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:11,240 Speaker 1: what parts were burned, but presumably her It must have 74 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:14,880 Speaker 1: been her head because they weren't not able to take 75 00:04:14,920 --> 00:04:17,839 Speaker 1: any photographs of her face to show to people because 76 00:04:17,839 --> 00:04:20,240 Speaker 1: there was nothing recognizable. Yeah, apparently they were not able 77 00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:22,440 Speaker 1: to get a photograph out of the passport that they 78 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:24,760 Speaker 1: found because I had probably apparently been burned. Also, it's 79 00:04:24,760 --> 00:04:28,320 Speaker 1: probably once burned. So anyway, they had a problem with 80 00:04:28,720 --> 00:04:31,400 Speaker 1: how to identify this person. Her Her fingerprints have been 81 00:04:31,400 --> 00:04:35,400 Speaker 1: sanded off U And you did you ever find what 82 00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:38,320 Speaker 1: I was looking through this, I could ever find were 83 00:04:38,360 --> 00:04:41,520 Speaker 1: they stand it off prior to death or had they 84 00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:45,280 Speaker 1: been sanded off, you know, weeks in advance. I could 85 00:04:45,279 --> 00:04:47,720 Speaker 1: never he was never able to pin down was just 86 00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:51,919 Speaker 1: like done to her after she was killed? You know, 87 00:04:52,040 --> 00:04:53,560 Speaker 1: one of the one of the little one of the 88 00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:55,880 Speaker 1: little fragments of evidence that's in here leads me to 89 00:04:55,920 --> 00:04:58,400 Speaker 1: believe it happened after she was killed. But you know, 90 00:04:58,400 --> 00:05:00,960 Speaker 1: there are people who are criminal pipes who don't want 91 00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:03,600 Speaker 1: to leave fingerprints prints behind, and they do stand off 92 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:06,360 Speaker 1: their fingerprints. It's not it's not totally uncommon. You can 93 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:09,520 Speaker 1: either use sandpaper or acid to get rid of those fingerprints. 94 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:12,159 Speaker 1: As as far as when they were standing off later on, 95 00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:14,240 Speaker 1: they found they found some luggage, I'll get to that, 96 00:05:14,279 --> 00:05:17,080 Speaker 1: but they found some sharts, some pieces of glass in 97 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:20,279 Speaker 1: the luggage and had it had partial fingerprints on the glass, 98 00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:24,760 Speaker 1: and police reportedly believed that those were her fingerprints. So 99 00:05:24,839 --> 00:05:27,120 Speaker 1: they were never able to use those to identify her. 100 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:31,880 Speaker 1: But if police believe that they were fingerprints, then that 101 00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:34,280 Speaker 1: that makes me believe that somebody must have standed off 102 00:05:34,279 --> 00:05:38,880 Speaker 1: her fingers after the murderer. Yeah, yeah, so so, But 103 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:41,080 Speaker 1: again I'm not a hundred percent share. Again, you know, 104 00:05:41,120 --> 00:05:43,320 Speaker 1: like as as with all of these things, you know, 105 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:47,240 Speaker 1: a little straight backtoys that aren't really actually true managed 106 00:05:47,279 --> 00:05:49,680 Speaker 1: to get worked into the story by other people. And 107 00:05:49,800 --> 00:05:52,200 Speaker 1: so so as far as the pieces of glass with 108 00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:53,920 Speaker 1: the fingerprints, I don't know if that's true or not. 109 00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:56,200 Speaker 1: Who knows if any of this is true, who does it? 110 00:05:56,279 --> 00:05:59,599 Speaker 1: Norway even exists. It might be a big old house 111 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:03,560 Speaker 1: I've never Yeah. Okay, so by way, as I said, 112 00:06:03,600 --> 00:06:06,560 Speaker 1: she had an they did an autopsy on her. She 113 00:06:06,720 --> 00:06:10,080 Speaker 1: had suffered blunt force trauma to the neck. And this 114 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:12,640 Speaker 1: is this was apparently the cause of death, or if 115 00:06:12,680 --> 00:06:15,200 Speaker 1: not the cause of death, then certainly a contributed to it. 116 00:06:15,480 --> 00:06:20,120 Speaker 1: Then again, they discovered several sleeping pills in her inner system. Uh, 117 00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:22,440 Speaker 1: they looked at her teeth, and they tried to find 118 00:06:22,480 --> 00:06:25,520 Speaker 1: her using her dental records, and they that came back. No, 119 00:06:25,839 --> 00:06:28,200 Speaker 1: they were not able to identify her that way. There 120 00:06:28,279 --> 00:06:30,719 Speaker 1: was evidence that she had had some dental work done 121 00:06:30,760 --> 00:06:36,640 Speaker 1: in Latin America. How you know this is this is 122 00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:39,000 Speaker 1: against something I know that like certain things like you know, 123 00:06:39,040 --> 00:06:41,080 Speaker 1: for example, if you get dental work done in Russia, 124 00:06:41,680 --> 00:06:44,120 Speaker 1: it's kind of obvious apparently because it's kind of crude 125 00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:47,359 Speaker 1: and it might be you know, And I was not 126 00:06:47,440 --> 00:06:49,880 Speaker 1: able to find out how they knew there was anything 127 00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:52,560 Speaker 1: to do with Latin America unless customarily in Latin America 128 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:57,080 Speaker 1: perhaps they use different materials for fillings or techniques, different techniques. Yeah, 129 00:06:57,279 --> 00:06:59,880 Speaker 1: that's so, I don't know. Yeah, that was again, that 130 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:02,479 Speaker 1: was one of those things I questioned, how do you 131 00:07:02,680 --> 00:07:06,200 Speaker 1: how did you make that connection because it's not stated anywhere. Yeah. Yeah, 132 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:09,000 Speaker 1: So anyway, enough of the dental work. They I'm going 133 00:07:09,080 --> 00:07:11,440 Speaker 1: to skip ahead of the ending. They eventually wind up 134 00:07:11,520 --> 00:07:15,280 Speaker 1: concluding that she committed suicide. Yeah, now this is this 135 00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:18,840 Speaker 1: is somewhat controversial, but let me get back to their 136 00:07:18,840 --> 00:07:22,440 Speaker 1: investigation though. They first of all, they were asking around 137 00:07:22,560 --> 00:07:24,720 Speaker 1: all the people she stayed at several hotels. She had 138 00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:27,560 Speaker 1: actually come and gone to the town of Bergen several 139 00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:30,320 Speaker 1: times and meanwhile gone off and traveled around Europe a 140 00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:33,520 Speaker 1: little bit returning, and while she was there, she tended 141 00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:36,640 Speaker 1: to change hotels often and often sometimes within hotels she 142 00:07:36,640 --> 00:07:41,280 Speaker 1: would change rooms. So interesting behaviors. Yeah, so they the 143 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:44,560 Speaker 1: police asked around at all the hotels. Um, they got 144 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:47,480 Speaker 1: descriptions from people and based on the bone structure they 145 00:07:47,480 --> 00:07:50,080 Speaker 1: were able to see in her face from the autopsy 146 00:07:50,080 --> 00:07:53,240 Speaker 1: and everything, and paying that up with with a police sketch, 147 00:07:53,360 --> 00:07:57,120 Speaker 1: artists and descriptions that hotel employees gave them various other people, 148 00:07:57,120 --> 00:07:59,120 Speaker 1: they were able to put together a composite sketch of 149 00:07:59,160 --> 00:08:03,560 Speaker 1: this person and show that around to people. So anyway, 150 00:08:03,240 --> 00:08:07,360 Speaker 1: they continue with their investigation. Eventually that eventually it led 151 00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:10,320 Speaker 1: them to the train station in Bergen, where they found 152 00:08:10,760 --> 00:08:14,840 Speaker 1: in a locker then two suitcases that belonged to this woman. Yeah, 153 00:08:14,960 --> 00:08:19,760 Speaker 1: I know it sounds so it's so much like I know, 154 00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:26,080 Speaker 1: you related, maybe yeah, all right, was this a girlfriend? 155 00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:32,200 Speaker 1: She was murder Yeah something shrude, But anyway, I haven't checked. Actually, 156 00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:33,840 Speaker 1: I need to get a globe out and find out if, 157 00:08:33,880 --> 00:08:36,880 Speaker 1: like if like this town in Norway is exactly exactly 158 00:08:36,920 --> 00:08:39,960 Speaker 1: on the opposite side of the earth from Adelaide's. It 159 00:08:40,040 --> 00:08:44,840 Speaker 1: was Adelaide, Australia where he was found, right, Yeah, So anyway, 160 00:08:44,880 --> 00:08:47,400 Speaker 1: they go, they find these suitcases. Major fine, but then 161 00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:50,040 Speaker 1: they find to their sugarun that the labels had all 162 00:08:50,040 --> 00:08:52,439 Speaker 1: been removed from all the clothing. Yeah, I know, I know, 163 00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:56,319 Speaker 1: no labels. They found a bottle of lotion which was 164 00:08:56,360 --> 00:09:00,600 Speaker 1: apparently prescription only, but the the label had been peeled off, 165 00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:04,120 Speaker 1: and in the line of one suitcase they discovered five 166 00:09:04,600 --> 00:09:08,200 Speaker 1: German marks have been sewn in the orange thread of 167 00:09:08,240 --> 00:09:14,720 Speaker 1: a weird type. Yeah. So they found a few pieces 168 00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:17,199 Speaker 1: of broken glass. Why you keep broken glass in your suitcase? 169 00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:19,400 Speaker 1: It is kind of beyond me. But they found these 170 00:09:19,400 --> 00:09:21,200 Speaker 1: are the ones I mentioned earlier. And they found partial 171 00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:24,560 Speaker 1: fingerprints on those pieces of glass which they believed could 172 00:09:24,559 --> 00:09:26,360 Speaker 1: be hers, and but they were not able to use 173 00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:28,840 Speaker 1: those to identify her. Again, this this leads me to 174 00:09:28,840 --> 00:09:30,800 Speaker 1: believe that her fingerprints must have been standing off the 175 00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:33,280 Speaker 1: scene of the crime. Although you know, maybe they ran 176 00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:34,960 Speaker 1: out of gasoline. You think they could pour gas on 177 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:36,360 Speaker 1: her hands and just light them on fire and be 178 00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:39,959 Speaker 1: a lot easier than than standing her hands. Yeah, this 179 00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:44,160 Speaker 1: is this is obviously a murder and the suicide theory 180 00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:46,439 Speaker 1: that came up by the police, and I'm going to 181 00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:50,000 Speaker 1: discount that right away because I don't take sleeping pills 182 00:09:50,040 --> 00:09:52,240 Speaker 1: and then throw myself onto a rock and bang my 183 00:09:52,280 --> 00:09:56,120 Speaker 1: head and then let myself while I'm naked. This just 184 00:09:56,160 --> 00:10:00,280 Speaker 1: doesn't make sense. So I could see if some buddy 185 00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:05,240 Speaker 1: botched burning the body. Then they would go for Okay, 186 00:10:05,280 --> 00:10:10,000 Speaker 1: what else can I do? Saying the fingerprints off seems 187 00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:13,480 Speaker 1: like a hard way to do it, rather than and 188 00:10:13,520 --> 00:10:16,480 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, this is gruesome dropping the hands off. Chopping 189 00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:19,480 Speaker 1: the hands off, Yeah, that's true, that would be easier 190 00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:21,560 Speaker 1: way to take care of the problem. But then getting 191 00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:23,760 Speaker 1: you got to get rid of the hand. Yeah. Maybe 192 00:10:23,840 --> 00:10:26,920 Speaker 1: maybe they forgot to bring their hatchet. Maybe, yeah, but luckily, 193 00:10:27,280 --> 00:10:30,640 Speaker 1: luckily they thought they thought to bring their sandpaper. Yeah, 194 00:10:32,280 --> 00:10:33,800 Speaker 1: it could very well be. And meant, what a lot 195 00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:36,240 Speaker 1: of people don't realize about about human bodies is that 196 00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:39,280 Speaker 1: they're almost all water. And then then actually burning a 197 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:41,800 Speaker 1: human body, it's a lot harder than than it seems. 198 00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:44,520 Speaker 1: It's very difficult. Yeah, And so they probably had a 199 00:10:44,520 --> 00:10:46,400 Speaker 1: couple of bottles of gas. They threw them on there, 200 00:10:46,400 --> 00:10:48,160 Speaker 1: and then she just didn't, you know, go up in 201 00:10:48,200 --> 00:10:50,400 Speaker 1: flames like they had hoped, And so they had the 202 00:10:50,720 --> 00:10:53,400 Speaker 1: Unfortunately they had no gas left over to torture hands with. 203 00:10:54,520 --> 00:10:55,839 Speaker 1: One of them had to go back to town to 204 00:10:55,880 --> 00:10:59,480 Speaker 1: the hardware store a gets the sandpaper. Yeah, yeah, okay, 205 00:10:59,480 --> 00:11:03,560 Speaker 1: all right, yeah, this is weird. Yeah. Anyway, So, so 206 00:11:03,679 --> 00:11:07,080 Speaker 1: on the basis of all the various witnesses who had 207 00:11:07,080 --> 00:11:08,600 Speaker 1: met this woman. They were, like I said, be able 208 00:11:08,600 --> 00:11:12,200 Speaker 1: to put together a composite sketch. And they were. They 209 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:15,720 Speaker 1: were publishing the local papers and they were also disseminated 210 00:11:16,559 --> 00:11:20,400 Speaker 1: across Europe via Interpoal and they were able to actually 211 00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:23,880 Speaker 1: put together quite a quite a bit of her travel 212 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:27,679 Speaker 1: itinerary between between the interpoal and between the various inquiries 213 00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:31,000 Speaker 1: but police made and also they found a diary that 214 00:11:31,120 --> 00:11:37,240 Speaker 1: had some coded stuff, coded references broke and the broken. Yeah, yeah, 215 00:11:37,280 --> 00:11:40,240 Speaker 1: they broke code, not the diary. So they were able 216 00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:43,160 Speaker 1: to decipher some of some of this and and sort 217 00:11:43,160 --> 00:11:46,719 Speaker 1: of figure out her travel itinerary. Uh. They found out 218 00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:49,280 Speaker 1: that she had traveled around Norway and across Europe with 219 00:11:49,280 --> 00:11:51,840 Speaker 1: with eight or nine different identities, different names, and she 220 00:11:51,880 --> 00:11:58,319 Speaker 1: gave yeah a lot of names. Yeah, seriously is according 221 00:11:58,360 --> 00:12:00,880 Speaker 1: to some reports in the lugger they found a bunch 222 00:12:00,920 --> 00:12:03,520 Speaker 1: of a bunch of different passports from different countries, all 223 00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:06,760 Speaker 1: different names. I don't I'm kind of discounting that because 224 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:09,600 Speaker 1: if they had kind of passports, they would have had photos, ever, 225 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:11,480 Speaker 1: and they wouldn't have needed to put together a composite 226 00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:14,800 Speaker 1: sketch that's good. I hadn't even made that connection. That's 227 00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:17,520 Speaker 1: a great point. Yeah, so they have they discovered all 228 00:12:17,559 --> 00:12:20,839 Speaker 1: these different names that she had signed into hotels using 229 00:12:20,920 --> 00:12:23,080 Speaker 1: and stuff like that. But he was using again police 230 00:12:23,120 --> 00:12:26,439 Speaker 1: inquiries in her diary. So she went to let's see 231 00:12:26,480 --> 00:12:29,920 Speaker 1: she she was in March nineteen seventies. She was in Norway, 232 00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:33,360 Speaker 1: stayed in Oslo, went to Bergen's, stayed at the Hotel 233 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:37,320 Speaker 1: Bristol under two different names and Alslo. She used Genevieve 234 00:12:37,400 --> 00:12:40,960 Speaker 1: Lancier and then she was Claudia Tilt in the Bergen 235 00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:44,320 Speaker 1: uh and then moves to the hotel Scandia, same name, 236 00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:47,880 Speaker 1: and then goes and then winds up leaving Bergen and 237 00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:51,560 Speaker 1: traveling eventually to Germany, stays there for months, and then 238 00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:56,439 Speaker 1: eventually got back to Oslo in October or October after 239 00:12:56,559 --> 00:12:58,360 Speaker 1: after staying there for a brief amount of time, she 240 00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:00,920 Speaker 1: went up going to Paris, stayed a couple of different 241 00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:03,920 Speaker 1: hotels in Paris, and then eventually made her way back 242 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:07,079 Speaker 1: to Bergen, Norway. Got there at the end of October, 243 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:10,480 Speaker 1: where she stayed again another hotel and her get another name, 244 00:13:10,920 --> 00:13:15,200 Speaker 1: and then left Bergen and then wound up coming back 245 00:13:15,360 --> 00:13:17,640 Speaker 1: under and staying at a hotel and her get another name. 246 00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:21,080 Speaker 1: While she was in Oslo, she stayed, she said, an 247 00:13:21,080 --> 00:13:23,640 Speaker 1: hotel ender a named the name of very Yarrel. She 248 00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:27,120 Speaker 1: gets the stabbonger. She stays at hotel called Vanilla Lorch. 249 00:13:27,960 --> 00:13:30,760 Speaker 1: Eventually gets back to Bergen, stays at the hotel Rosenkrantz 250 00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:33,800 Speaker 1: using the name Elizabeth Lean Howard. She had a lot 251 00:13:33,800 --> 00:13:36,360 Speaker 1: of names. She had a lot of names. Uh. So 252 00:13:36,520 --> 00:13:40,800 Speaker 1: on the on the morning number she left the hotel, 253 00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:43,520 Speaker 1: she paid, she signed up, paid in cash and asked 254 00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:46,839 Speaker 1: for a taxi. She apparently went to the railway station, 255 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:48,920 Speaker 1: which is where she once she dropped off her two 256 00:13:48,920 --> 00:13:51,520 Speaker 1: pieces of luggage and she and that was the last day, 257 00:13:51,559 --> 00:13:53,480 Speaker 1: but he saw her alive. Her body was found six 258 00:13:53,559 --> 00:13:56,400 Speaker 1: days later. So back to her mini names. She also 259 00:13:56,520 --> 00:13:58,600 Speaker 1: used whigs. They found wigs in the luggage and some 260 00:13:58,640 --> 00:14:00,240 Speaker 1: of the some of the people at the hotel said 261 00:14:00,280 --> 00:14:03,679 Speaker 1: they had seen her wearing various wigs, according to some accounts. 262 00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:06,959 Speaker 1: In the luggage they also found eyeglasses non prescription, probably 263 00:14:07,040 --> 00:14:11,319 Speaker 1: used just for altering her appearances. Yeah uh and again 264 00:14:11,679 --> 00:14:15,040 Speaker 1: the diary with the cryptic entries. Witnesses said also that 265 00:14:15,080 --> 00:14:18,840 Speaker 1: she had spoken several languages, French, German, English, and Dutch. She, 266 00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:21,640 Speaker 1: as I said, stayed in many hotels and many often 267 00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:24,960 Speaker 1: changed rooms. She usually in signing it would indicate that 268 00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:28,480 Speaker 1: she was a traveling saleswoman and an antiquities collector, which 269 00:14:28,520 --> 00:14:32,960 Speaker 1: is suspicious, not really, but uh yeah. They described her 270 00:14:32,960 --> 00:14:38,120 Speaker 1: as thirty of those antiquity well, that seems to be 271 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:42,040 Speaker 1: the standard cover for spies, and oh yeah, don't you 272 00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:46,040 Speaker 1: watch movies. Okay, So anyway, according to the staff at 273 00:14:46,040 --> 00:14:51,520 Speaker 1: the hotels, she was described as as thirty forty years old, attractive, 274 00:14:51,760 --> 00:14:55,200 Speaker 1: about five ft four or five ft five, with white hipps, 275 00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:58,800 Speaker 1: small eyes, and that's about she's They said that she 276 00:14:59,080 --> 00:15:01,320 Speaker 1: uh see to be kind of on her guard and 277 00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:03,440 Speaker 1: stayed in a room a lot. They took the clothing 278 00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:05,560 Speaker 1: in the suitcases, which of course didn't have any labels 279 00:15:05,560 --> 00:15:07,600 Speaker 1: in it, but they showed her to some clothing retailers 280 00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:09,120 Speaker 1: and all they were able to say is that it 281 00:15:09,160 --> 00:15:12,920 Speaker 1: appeared to be Italian clothing, so apparently she had a 282 00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:15,840 Speaker 1: taste for Italian clothes. There was a connection. She had 283 00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:20,520 Speaker 1: been witness witnessed hanging out with apparently an Italian photographer 284 00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:22,680 Speaker 1: whose name eludes me at the moment. But anyway, this 285 00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:26,400 Speaker 1: is this photographer supposedly had given her a lift, according 286 00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:29,600 Speaker 1: to some accounts, had had dinner with her. One other 287 00:15:29,640 --> 00:15:32,200 Speaker 1: accounts said she spent the night with him. And so 288 00:15:32,480 --> 00:15:35,520 Speaker 1: again some of those funny little factoids that worked their 289 00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:39,800 Speaker 1: way in to the story. So anyway, the police interviewed him. 290 00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:42,520 Speaker 1: He said that the woman said she came from a 291 00:15:42,520 --> 00:15:46,040 Speaker 1: small town north of Johanasburg, South Africa, and that's a 292 00:15:46,280 --> 00:15:49,560 Speaker 1: that's a hard accent to fake. That would be a 293 00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:53,280 Speaker 1: South African accent is a hard one to fake. Yeah, 294 00:15:53,520 --> 00:15:56,360 Speaker 1: But I swear when I was reading on this that 295 00:15:56,440 --> 00:16:01,640 Speaker 1: people said she had a quote unquote unplaceable accent if 296 00:16:01,640 --> 00:16:06,000 Speaker 1: she was flu what was it three four fe German, French, 297 00:16:06,080 --> 00:16:08,640 Speaker 1: Flemish and Dutch. I think yeah, so she had she 298 00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:11,320 Speaker 1: had a lot of languages under her belt, which will 299 00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:15,080 Speaker 1: mute out an accent on its own, And so it 300 00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:17,760 Speaker 1: might that might be why they said I can't place 301 00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:21,440 Speaker 1: this accent, because if that's where we're presuming that she 302 00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:23,720 Speaker 1: was telling the truth, or this guy is telling the truth, 303 00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:25,920 Speaker 1: If that's where she came from, then she learns all 304 00:16:25,920 --> 00:16:28,720 Speaker 1: these other languages, she's gonna water down that accent just 305 00:16:29,640 --> 00:16:34,880 Speaker 1: unintentionally or intentionally, nobody's gonna know what she sounds like. Yeah, well, 306 00:16:34,880 --> 00:16:37,160 Speaker 1: it's also quite possible this is northern Europe too, and 307 00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:41,000 Speaker 1: and Afrikaans accents is probably an unusual one that most 308 00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:44,000 Speaker 1: people wouldn't recognize as opposed to you know, say, German 309 00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:46,920 Speaker 1: French accent, that kind of thing. That could be another 310 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:51,920 Speaker 1: another possibility anyway, besides the Italians saying that she had 311 00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:56,160 Speaker 1: been was from near Johannesburg. She told him that she 312 00:16:56,240 --> 00:16:59,320 Speaker 1: had six months to hang out in Norway and didn't 313 00:16:59,520 --> 00:17:02,120 Speaker 1: didn't be lie right on that anymore. Um, and so 314 00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:04,760 Speaker 1: that's about all he knew. So that was kind of 315 00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:07,720 Speaker 1: a dead end. So on she checked out of her room, 316 00:17:07,840 --> 00:17:09,720 Speaker 1: she paid in cash, as I said, and was never 317 00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:14,159 Speaker 1: seen again alive. And the the only other part of 318 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:16,719 Speaker 1: the story, well as a couple of other parts, supposedly 319 00:17:16,840 --> 00:17:19,560 Speaker 1: thirty two years after the fact, local twenty six year 320 00:17:19,560 --> 00:17:22,000 Speaker 1: old man twenty six years old at the time, I 321 00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:24,879 Speaker 1: was hiking around the same area with some friends, and 322 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:26,919 Speaker 1: I'm kind of discounting this because I mean, the guy 323 00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:32,000 Speaker 1: waits thirty two years to come forward. It's like, you know, yeah, 324 00:17:32,040 --> 00:17:33,960 Speaker 1: but I'm gonna go ahead and tell his story. Anyway. 325 00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:37,600 Speaker 1: So on two November that was that would be at 326 00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:39,800 Speaker 1: the day after she checked out of the hotel. This 327 00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:43,000 Speaker 1: guy was hiking with friends in this in that area 328 00:17:43,119 --> 00:17:47,160 Speaker 1: and supposedly came across a woman of foreign appearance who 329 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:52,000 Speaker 1: was her face was distorted by fear. He said. Um. 330 00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:54,520 Speaker 1: He said he was that she was dressed elegantly and 331 00:17:54,680 --> 00:17:58,280 Speaker 1: very inappropriately for hiking, so and and that seemed a 332 00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:01,760 Speaker 1: little bit mysterious to him. And what does elegantly mean, 333 00:18:03,040 --> 00:18:05,800 Speaker 1: like a horrible gown or something like, Yeah, I'm thinking 334 00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:08,639 Speaker 1: at least address if nothing, if nothing else, maybe not 335 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:11,560 Speaker 1: a you know, big poopy prom dress, but just address 336 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:16,040 Speaker 1: in general. Yeah. Yeah, So anyway, so he sees her, 337 00:18:16,119 --> 00:18:19,240 Speaker 1: she looks, she looks very scared, and it's dressed in 338 00:18:19,320 --> 00:18:23,240 Speaker 1: formal wear. And they passed each other, and she said 339 00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:25,040 Speaker 1: she she moved her mouth as if she was going 340 00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:28,560 Speaker 1: to say something, but then I decided apparently not to um. 341 00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:31,760 Speaker 1: And also she was being followed by two black coated 342 00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:35,080 Speaker 1: men who also looked for and yeah, I know, I know. 343 00:18:35,359 --> 00:18:38,280 Speaker 1: Did he did he report that to the police, not 344 00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:41,280 Speaker 1: until after the body was discovered. And this is the 345 00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:44,000 Speaker 1: thing that I find kind of incredible about it, and said, so, 346 00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:46,000 Speaker 1: this is guys, this is a young guy twenty six 347 00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:49,760 Speaker 1: years old with friends. She's all by herself being followed 348 00:18:49,760 --> 00:18:51,520 Speaker 1: by some guys that are going to murder her. Why 349 00:18:51,560 --> 00:18:53,840 Speaker 1: doesn't she just like say, hey, guys, I'm gonnah with you? 350 00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:58,560 Speaker 1: Is that okay? Seriously? And wouldn't you do that? Sure 351 00:18:58,560 --> 00:19:01,040 Speaker 1: as hell would That's another reason I don't really buy 352 00:19:01,080 --> 00:19:03,639 Speaker 1: this story. But apparently after you heard about the murder, 353 00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:06,480 Speaker 1: you contacted the police and he recognized her from the 354 00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:09,600 Speaker 1: composite drawings they saw in the newspaper. But he said 355 00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:13,320 Speaker 1: that the policeman that he spoke to basically said, quote, 356 00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:15,960 Speaker 1: forget her. She was dispatched the case, the case will 357 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:19,080 Speaker 1: never be solved, and so he basically took that advice 358 00:19:19,119 --> 00:19:21,960 Speaker 1: and forgot about it, and then thirty two years later 359 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:24,960 Speaker 1: apparently decided to come forward about it. Yeah. I know 360 00:19:25,040 --> 00:19:27,280 Speaker 1: it's a little fishy, so I'm not I'm not really 361 00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:29,800 Speaker 1: buying this. Yeah. I thought i'd showed in there because 362 00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:33,240 Speaker 1: it's just part of the legend. Yeah, Yeah, that sounds 363 00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:37,399 Speaker 1: thanky to me. Yeah. There was a Norwegian television network 364 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:39,320 Speaker 1: did a little story on it in two thousand two. 365 00:19:39,359 --> 00:19:43,240 Speaker 1: According to them, um Special Branch, which is apparently Norwegian 366 00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:46,520 Speaker 1: intelligence was was involved in this case, they claim, and 367 00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:49,200 Speaker 1: that might be when this this this guy came forward, 368 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:51,800 Speaker 1: because two thousand two, that's about thirty two years after 369 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:54,480 Speaker 1: the case. He might have been part of it. The story. 370 00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:58,280 Speaker 1: I didn't see the obviously, the television story about it. 371 00:19:58,320 --> 00:19:59,840 Speaker 1: I just heard about it the papers and I didn't 372 00:19:59,840 --> 00:20:02,720 Speaker 1: see and he mentioned that this guy in the newspaper articles. 373 00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:06,080 Speaker 1: But according to this special Branch was involved. And even 374 00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:09,000 Speaker 1: though apparently the police were followed following some promising leads, 375 00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:12,400 Speaker 1: Special Branch basically told them to cut off the investigation 376 00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:15,600 Speaker 1: and just label its suicide. So this is this is 377 00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:18,320 Speaker 1: what they said. Oh so, so what they're saying is 378 00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:21,479 Speaker 1: basically they were they were told what the answer was 379 00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:24,560 Speaker 1: and just to let it be. Yeah, basically not to 380 00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:26,480 Speaker 1: follow it any further. Although I guess that, you know, 381 00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:29,800 Speaker 1: goes along with that young man's story, right, I mean, 382 00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:34,679 Speaker 1: I guess there are some circumstances in which you don't 383 00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:37,680 Speaker 1: speak up, like, you know, maybe those guys behind her 384 00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:39,840 Speaker 1: had guns and she knew it and she didn't want 385 00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:45,320 Speaker 1: to you know. Yeah, I mean not just that, but 386 00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:48,920 Speaker 1: you know, involve a lot of innocence, right, Like it's 387 00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:50,520 Speaker 1: not going to save her life, it's just going to 388 00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:56,080 Speaker 1: get other people killed. Yeah, that's that's true. That's very noble. Ever. 389 00:20:56,200 --> 00:21:00,280 Speaker 1: But but another thing I find incredible about us story 390 00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:03,320 Speaker 1: is that the cop would say something like you forget 391 00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:05,240 Speaker 1: her the case was ever be solved, you know, the cop. 392 00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:07,760 Speaker 1: If the cop was truly being warned off by Special Branch, 393 00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:09,600 Speaker 1: wouldn't he say something like, well, thanks for the info, 394 00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:12,159 Speaker 1: ser on put in the file, not say something. But 395 00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:15,040 Speaker 1: if the guy, if the guy comes forward and he 396 00:21:15,040 --> 00:21:19,080 Speaker 1: he tells somebody and then they keep acting as if 397 00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:21,800 Speaker 1: they've got no other information, and he pipes up again 398 00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:25,119 Speaker 1: and he says, well, I talked to you know, Officer 399 00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:28,120 Speaker 1: Qualsky over there, and he, you know, he took my statement, 400 00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:33,600 Speaker 1: and then quality, uh, you know, it makes this it 401 00:21:33,760 --> 00:21:37,760 Speaker 1: just snowballs on itself. Yeah. Possibly, you know, Qualsi could 402 00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:40,080 Speaker 1: just say look and the guy said she was being 403 00:21:40,119 --> 00:21:43,520 Speaker 1: followed by two two, four unlooking men in black coats. 404 00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:44,800 Speaker 1: So what was I supposed to do? Put it on 405 00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:47,200 Speaker 1: an a P B on form looking guys in black coats? 406 00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:54,199 Speaker 1: You know, story when logic yeah. So anyway, Yeah, so anyway, 407 00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:56,760 Speaker 1: it is a big imponderable mystery. And I decided that 408 00:21:56,800 --> 00:21:58,360 Speaker 1: what we need to do is one of us needs 409 00:21:58,359 --> 00:22:01,679 Speaker 1: to learn Norwegian, uh, and the other one another one 410 00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:03,720 Speaker 1: of us needs to get us like a second job 411 00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:05,240 Speaker 1: to stay with the money so we can fly to 412 00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:07,560 Speaker 1: Norway and then read the police files. Why don't we 413 00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:12,360 Speaker 1: just make a time machine that would be easier. So okay, Joe. 414 00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:16,720 Speaker 1: So we've got this account of what happened to this woman, 415 00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:19,960 Speaker 1: and this is one of those stories, as you mentioned, 416 00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:24,280 Speaker 1: where things work their way into the story and it changes. Yeah. 417 00:22:24,920 --> 00:22:29,320 Speaker 1: I came across completely different accounts of this story. I 418 00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:32,560 Speaker 1: didn't do well. Yeah, I forgot to mention that there 419 00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:35,040 Speaker 1: was another account where she wasn't found on the mountain 420 00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:36,960 Speaker 1: at all. She was found in a hotel room where 421 00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:39,919 Speaker 1: the body stuffed in a fireplace partially burned, right, And 422 00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:42,879 Speaker 1: they found and in that version they say they found 423 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:47,760 Speaker 1: not the nine pastor Yeah, and it was not only 424 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:53,520 Speaker 1: the the five hundred German franks is that correct mark marks? 425 00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:56,560 Speaker 1: But they also found local currency. I think it was 426 00:22:56,640 --> 00:22:59,280 Speaker 1: so it was, I mean the details were the same, 427 00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:01,880 Speaker 1: but then there was odd things injected into it there 428 00:23:01,960 --> 00:23:06,560 Speaker 1: was a monogram silver spoon, but the monogram had been 429 00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:11,960 Speaker 1: carved off, and then spoons in herb Yeah when they 430 00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:14,919 Speaker 1: found yeah, exactly, and at that one. I okay, I 431 00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:19,240 Speaker 1: admit right now, this version that I'm talking about sounds 432 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:24,159 Speaker 1: like the fanciful version they got spun off. But it 433 00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:28,000 Speaker 1: still makes me question the original version that we're talking 434 00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:32,720 Speaker 1: about and the details that we're finding it. I gotta yes, 435 00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:35,800 Speaker 1: the spoons thing I not especially kind of laughable because 436 00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:38,640 Speaker 1: you know, so you buy a spoon, You've already cut 437 00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:40,240 Speaker 1: the labels out of your luggage, so you buy a 438 00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:42,520 Speaker 1: spoon with a monogram on and then you file it off. 439 00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:44,000 Speaker 1: Why don't you just buy a spoon that doesn't have 440 00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:50,320 Speaker 1: a monogram, plain spoon. Yeah. I know how ignorant that 441 00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:53,879 Speaker 1: makes me sound, but it's just it didn't make sense. 442 00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:57,760 Speaker 1: I know they don't have Ikea, but but it's just 443 00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:01,520 Speaker 1: it's it's really weird. Yeah, I agree. Yeah, And you know, 444 00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:04,119 Speaker 1: all the spoon thing. You know, the only explanation I 445 00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:06,080 Speaker 1: can think of for that is that she was a 446 00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:08,760 Speaker 1: bit of a klepto and maybe she had a policy 447 00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:12,200 Speaker 1: of nabbing a spoon from every hotel she stayed at. 448 00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:14,119 Speaker 1: You know, there's people that do have that do that 449 00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:17,200 Speaker 1: kind of stuff. Yeah, yeah, I mean yeah, but I 450 00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:19,800 Speaker 1: found Uh, I didn't run across that, and I was 451 00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:21,600 Speaker 1: going to mention that, so I thank you for bringing 452 00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:24,200 Speaker 1: it up, because I'd spaced it off. But yeah, as 453 00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:27,800 Speaker 1: far as you know, being found stuffed in a fireplace 454 00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:30,680 Speaker 1: in a hotel room, I don't know. Most hotel rooms 455 00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:34,760 Speaker 1: number one don't have fireplaces. Actually, I mean, this is 456 00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:39,640 Speaker 1: what seventy is when this happened, and we're Norway, which 457 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:43,960 Speaker 1: is kind of cold. I wouldn't be surprised if hotel 458 00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:46,959 Speaker 1: rooms had fireplaces. I mean, I've staying hotels in the 459 00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:50,000 Speaker 1: States that have fireplaces. I'm not gonna say that it 460 00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:53,560 Speaker 1: doesn't happen. Yeah, it's it's entirely possible. But but yeah, 461 00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:57,600 Speaker 1: so were there accounts of her every time she checked 462 00:24:57,600 --> 00:24:59,800 Speaker 1: into a hotel asking for a room with a balcony. 463 00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:03,720 Speaker 1: Uh yeah, well there was at one point. She didn't 464 00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:05,720 Speaker 1: always do that, but at one point apparently when she 465 00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:08,439 Speaker 1: was staying at and I don't remember which hotel it was, 466 00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:10,800 Speaker 1: she asked to change rooms because she wanted to room 467 00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:12,879 Speaker 1: with the balcony. That that just might have been a 468 00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:15,440 Speaker 1: way to change, to get to get to get a 469 00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:18,800 Speaker 1: room change without arousing suspicions. Fair, you know, So that's 470 00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:21,480 Speaker 1: that's probably what that was about. And then somebody said 471 00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:23,359 Speaker 1: they heard her talking to a man in her room, 472 00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:26,080 Speaker 1: a man across the hallway, and she said something to 473 00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:29,600 Speaker 1: him in Germany, I'm coming or something like that. Yeah. Again, 474 00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:32,080 Speaker 1: that doesn't and I was so many like took me 475 00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:34,879 Speaker 1: a little weird detail, little things that don't really don't 476 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:37,320 Speaker 1: really shed any light on anything. Why I didn't mention 477 00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:38,880 Speaker 1: they were talking to the guy. Yeah, I just think 478 00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:41,800 Speaker 1: they're you know, they're interesting because you know, we're just 479 00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:44,520 Speaker 1: talking about how it's it's hard to tell what's true 480 00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:46,919 Speaker 1: and what's not true in this story. So you know, 481 00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:50,879 Speaker 1: I think adding like any little detail we can, you know, 482 00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:52,960 Speaker 1: who knows what's the real one and what's not the 483 00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:56,280 Speaker 1: real one. Yeah, I know, that's you know, that's the 484 00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:58,520 Speaker 1: beauty of this kind of stuff. You know, guess people 485 00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:00,919 Speaker 1: all fired up and people start actionalizing it and next 486 00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:03,840 Speaker 1: thing you know, it's all polluted and h it's hard 487 00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:05,919 Speaker 1: to say what's really on. But it's interesting though that 488 00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:08,679 Speaker 1: the Norwegian media has gotten sort of involved with it. 489 00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:11,560 Speaker 1: And actually in one of the articles that I read, 490 00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:15,240 Speaker 1: they actually questioned somebody from Special Branch and you basically 491 00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:19,840 Speaker 1: said they wouldn't comment on So that was about it, 492 00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:24,240 Speaker 1: or just maybe they didn't know anything. It's entirely possible 493 00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:26,880 Speaker 1: that they just, you know, weren't involved and knew nothing 494 00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:29,440 Speaker 1: about it. I don't know. I feel like just it's 495 00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:31,920 Speaker 1: so much easier in cases like that if they don't 496 00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:34,040 Speaker 1: have anything to hide, then just don't have anything to 497 00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:37,719 Speaker 1: hide it three years later and say no, no, we 498 00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:41,920 Speaker 1: weren't involved, Sorry, we know nothing about it. Yeah not. Oh, 499 00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:45,199 Speaker 1: I can't comment on that. So what does Joe do 500 00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:48,200 Speaker 1: you have on this? What? What the heck is going 501 00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:50,919 Speaker 1: on here? You know, I'm at a little bit of 502 00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:53,160 Speaker 1: a loss. I know that there's there's some talk about 503 00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:57,920 Speaker 1: here possibly being a spy, but I'm not talking. Yeah, 504 00:26:58,040 --> 00:27:01,640 Speaker 1: I know, But the thing about it is, uh, it's 505 00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:04,520 Speaker 1: entirely possible she was a spy. But spies don't do 506 00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:07,760 Speaker 1: suspicious things like things like standing off their fingers, their fingerprints. 507 00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:11,120 Speaker 1: Although again, if they were filed off standing off after 508 00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:14,760 Speaker 1: her death, and that might explain that they don't like 509 00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:16,600 Speaker 1: the sort of thing that spy would do. No that 510 00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:18,840 Speaker 1: would have that would attract attention at borders and stuff 511 00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:22,640 Speaker 1: like that. Yeah, that would that would look suspicious. Yeah, yeah, 512 00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:24,239 Speaker 1: you're supposed to do that when you're a spy. You're 513 00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:27,120 Speaker 1: supposed to just never attract attention to begin with. Well, 514 00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:30,520 Speaker 1: in the spy theory, what is what you and I 515 00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:33,280 Speaker 1: had talked about this before? What is There's a book 516 00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:37,680 Speaker 1: that's in Norwegian about this, and it's what the heck 517 00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:42,120 Speaker 1: is the name of it. It's Operation Isotope. Unfortunately it's 518 00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:44,840 Speaker 1: in Norwegian and it's never been translated to English as 519 00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:46,960 Speaker 1: far as I know anyway. And so yeah, there was 520 00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:49,480 Speaker 1: talking about her like, you know, like attempting to buy 521 00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:55,359 Speaker 1: radioactive materials, and that sounds familiar to ya. Where the 522 00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:57,800 Speaker 1: evidence for this, you know, came from? I don't know, 523 00:27:58,200 --> 00:27:59,960 Speaker 1: Oh my, go read the book. I don't know where 524 00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:03,840 Speaker 1: I have a new theory. Yeah, I remember a Rio 525 00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:08,720 Speaker 1: de Janeiro lead masks. They were the foreign looking men 526 00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:14,359 Speaker 1: in black boats that could have been I think the 527 00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:20,639 Speaker 1: time travel travel over there. That's why she looks so 528 00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:23,480 Speaker 1: freaked out right, because they just did hear it out 529 00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:26,440 Speaker 1: of nowhere. It started following her and they said, we 530 00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:29,840 Speaker 1: need the radioactive material, and he she said, we don't. 531 00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:32,320 Speaker 1: I don't have radioactive material. What are you talking about. 532 00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:36,560 Speaker 1: I'm not the radioactive material you're looking for. Yeah, okay, 533 00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:39,440 Speaker 1: so we got mad and killed her and then killed themselves. 534 00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:43,520 Speaker 1: What what other theories have we got on this? You know? 535 00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:45,680 Speaker 1: I mean she could have been I could I could 536 00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:49,320 Speaker 1: see where possibly she could have been, maybe a carrier 537 00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:55,280 Speaker 1: for say a crime network, um so, a drug carteller 538 00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:58,600 Speaker 1: or something funny like that. Yeah, it's entirely possible. That 539 00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:02,960 Speaker 1: would be an easy way to to transport drugs across borders, 540 00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:07,120 Speaker 1: if it's your quote unquote these are antiquities and look 541 00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:10,280 Speaker 1: at these old vases that I have and then they're 542 00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:14,800 Speaker 1: just cram full of whatever drug it may be. Yeah, 543 00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:19,160 Speaker 1: that would make total sense. Yeah, because the procedures for 544 00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:24,000 Speaker 1: checking stuff we're obviously not as stringent as they are now. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, 545 00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:26,040 Speaker 1: so they probably would have been would have been fairly 546 00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:27,920 Speaker 1: easy to do that kind of thing, if it could 547 00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:31,600 Speaker 1: have been smuggling secrets, radioactive materials, who knows what. But 548 00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:35,080 Speaker 1: although spuggling radioactive materials, it just sounds like kind of 549 00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:39,040 Speaker 1: an unhealthy thing to do. Yeah, that's long term solution. Yeah, 550 00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:42,120 Speaker 1: not a good career choice. Yeah, there's also there's other possibilities. 551 00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:44,640 Speaker 1: Another one is that she was just kind of an itinerant, 552 00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:47,000 Speaker 1: you know, eras type of person and enough spare cash 553 00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:49,640 Speaker 1: Ley and around to travel around into Europe and she 554 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:52,440 Speaker 1: just ran across the wrong person. It was murdered for 555 00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:55,360 Speaker 1: some entirely random reason, that that kind of stuff happens 556 00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:59,360 Speaker 1: to so stepped on somebody's toes basically, or yeah, made 557 00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:01,880 Speaker 1: the wrong person mad, made the wrong person mad, or 558 00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:04,400 Speaker 1: just happen to like make friends with the guy who 559 00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:07,120 Speaker 1: turned out to be a serial killer, you know that 560 00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:12,320 Speaker 1: kind of thing. Okay, Yeah, that I hadn't thought about that. Yeah, yeah, Yeah, 561 00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:13,880 Speaker 1: there's not a lot of not a lot of like 562 00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:16,800 Speaker 1: hants or clues they really point us anywhere. That's why again, 563 00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:20,440 Speaker 1: one of us needs to learn Norwegian so they can 564 00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:22,200 Speaker 1: read that book, and the other one not, and the 565 00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:23,840 Speaker 1: other one of you needs to learn Norwegian so you 566 00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:26,160 Speaker 1: can read the police files. And then we'll like, you know, 567 00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:28,400 Speaker 1: shed a little light on this whole. There we go. Yeah, 568 00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:31,760 Speaker 1: a perfect This this case actually did attract the attention 569 00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:35,640 Speaker 1: of no less august An organization than Cracked, and they 570 00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:38,880 Speaker 1: actually actually wrote a little thing on it. Uh, they 571 00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:41,959 Speaker 1: were mainly focusing on the bungling of the investigation by 572 00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:44,640 Speaker 1: the police especially they were a little credulous about the 573 00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:48,000 Speaker 1: whole the whole finding of suicide. Although you know, if 574 00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:49,920 Speaker 1: you if you believe these reports that came out in 575 00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:53,320 Speaker 1: that two thousand to report and Special Branch actually digging 576 00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:56,680 Speaker 1: involved and basically told them to back away and declare suicide, 577 00:30:56,720 --> 00:30:59,560 Speaker 1: well maybe they're not bunglers. They were just told they 578 00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:02,440 Speaker 1: declared suicide. I believe it that that that doesn't make 579 00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:04,520 Speaker 1: any sense because when you think about it, it would 580 00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:06,760 Speaker 1: have made a lot more sense to tell them to 581 00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:11,000 Speaker 1: declare it to be a murder and unsolved murder because 582 00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:15,520 Speaker 1: those things do happen fairly frequently. Unsolved murders would have 583 00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:20,360 Speaker 1: a higher probability of being reopened in the future, whereas 584 00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:23,960 Speaker 1: in a suicide, well what's a suicide. We don't we 585 00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:26,280 Speaker 1: don't go back and look at cold suicide because we 586 00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:28,840 Speaker 1: don't happen. Yeah, that's that's true. But at the same 587 00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:30,800 Speaker 1: time they've given the facts of the case. You know, 588 00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:33,960 Speaker 1: it's gonna arouse a little bit suspicion if somebody, if 589 00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:37,760 Speaker 1: somebody stripped naked and file series and files our fingertips off, 590 00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:40,560 Speaker 1: dousing themself with gas gasoline and then and then bashes 591 00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:43,240 Speaker 1: themselves in the back of the neck while lighting themselves 592 00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:46,240 Speaker 1: on fire and eating sleeping pills. I hadn't forgot about that. 593 00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:48,240 Speaker 1: That looks like a kind of a clumsy way to 594 00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:52,160 Speaker 1: commit suicide, the heck of a jungling act. Yeah. Additionally, 595 00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:54,880 Speaker 1: like her clothes would be there that we actually I 596 00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:56,840 Speaker 1: might have stripped him off and just run naked around 597 00:31:56,880 --> 00:31:58,320 Speaker 1: for a while, and it's like I'm gonna die, might 598 00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:02,160 Speaker 1: as well run naked. And yeah, that's true. Yeah, I 599 00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:08,440 Speaker 1: think the way it was February, it was yet, Yeah, 600 00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:10,440 Speaker 1: it could have been that she was she was running 601 00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:14,320 Speaker 1: around naked and she started started freezing to death and 602 00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:18,160 Speaker 1: what was that? Remember the case? So I forget what 603 00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:22,720 Speaker 1: that condition is called now hypothermia hypothermy about the actual 604 00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:26,280 Speaker 1: mental condition that develops from hypothermia. You think you're warm, 605 00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:29,440 Speaker 1: Think you're warm? Yeah, exactly. So maybe she was running 606 00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:32,080 Speaker 1: around naked and started thinking that she was really cold 607 00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:34,680 Speaker 1: and then decided, hey, I've got some gasoline here, I'll 608 00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:40,160 Speaker 1: warm myself up with a little gap. Yeah I was, 609 00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:41,880 Speaker 1: you know, I was willing to say it was like 610 00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:46,600 Speaker 1: an accidental suicide before I read about the burning situation, right, 611 00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:49,000 Speaker 1: because like somebody takes like a bunch of sleeping pills 612 00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:50,840 Speaker 1: and like goes a little crazy, takes all our clothes 613 00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:54,240 Speaker 1: off and slips and falls. Sure, yeah, and then gals 614 00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:58,000 Speaker 1: is themselves in gasoline. And although I guess only pausible 615 00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:00,560 Speaker 1: scenario I have here is somebody takes lee pink tolls, 616 00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:03,880 Speaker 1: so that and they're going to commit suicide by dozing 617 00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:06,760 Speaker 1: themselves in fire for whatever reason, that's the method they've chosen. 618 00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:09,960 Speaker 1: All right, Fine, so they take sleeping pills so be 619 00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:13,640 Speaker 1: because they think it all hurt less. Or they'll just 620 00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:16,360 Speaker 1: like fall asleep and then burn to death, or you 621 00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:21,240 Speaker 1: know whatever, set themselves on fire, slip fall, kill themselves 622 00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:23,959 Speaker 1: on accident, but it seems like there would be more burning. 623 00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:28,760 Speaker 1: Maybe I don't know it. Yeah, still working. That's those 624 00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:31,760 Speaker 1: are the two places I can get. Yeah, it's puzzling. Well. 625 00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:34,680 Speaker 1: Another theory is that no, that I made up just now. 626 00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:38,840 Speaker 1: She decided to take the sleeping pills and also drink 627 00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:42,080 Speaker 1: some gasoline and then and then just because of gasoline 628 00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:43,600 Speaker 1: would kill her on top of the sleeping pills. And 629 00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:47,640 Speaker 1: then she decided to smoke one last cigarette, let herself 630 00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:51,480 Speaker 1: on fire, and yeah it doesn't make any sense. Yeah, okay, 631 00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:53,320 Speaker 1: well this is the first I'm not i'm mystery that 632 00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:57,400 Speaker 1: we have not actually solved. Yeah. Yeah, it's kind of 633 00:33:57,400 --> 00:34:01,200 Speaker 1: a disappointment. It's the first. In Joe is Mine, he 634 00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:06,960 Speaker 1: always solves. We just are never on board. Yeah what 635 00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:14,200 Speaker 1: about the Yeah okay, so yeah, she was being followed 636 00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:20,280 Speaker 1: by two foreign looking guard clothes chuper cora anyway, Yeah, okay, 637 00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:23,120 Speaker 1: well anyway, so there we go. Mry solved the troop 638 00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:26,000 Speaker 1: of Cobra once again. That's the end of our episode. 639 00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:27,920 Speaker 1: I know it makes you sad, it makes me sad too. 640 00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:30,680 Speaker 1: If you want to contact us, if you have any 641 00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:32,879 Speaker 1: information about this case, and I'm sure one of you does, 642 00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:35,719 Speaker 1: there's somebody out there, probably with special brand, who participated 643 00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:37,080 Speaker 1: in this cover up. We want to hear from you. 644 00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:42,200 Speaker 1: Contact us at Thinking Sideways Podcast at gmail dot com. 645 00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:45,839 Speaker 1: Check out our website Thinking Sideways podcast dot com, find 646 00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:48,400 Speaker 1: us on Facebook, and of course, find us on iTunes. 647 00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:51,880 Speaker 1: And while you're out on iTunes grabbing episodes left and right, 648 00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:53,600 Speaker 1: be sure to leave us a rating. We like those 649 00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:57,400 Speaker 1: ratings and make sure it's a good rating. And also 650 00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:00,520 Speaker 1: leading comments is also much appreciated. We always love to 651 00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:02,279 Speaker 1: hear from folks. Yeah, we'd you let to hear from 652 00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:04,359 Speaker 1: your folks. Oh yeah. And also, by the way, don't 653 00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:06,839 Speaker 1: let me forget Stitcher. Find us on Stitcher, so there's 654 00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:12,200 Speaker 1: some many ways to find us. We're super accessible. Yeah. Alright, 655 00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:15,239 Speaker 1: So that's it for this week, folks. So long. We'll 656 00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:17,560 Speaker 1: see you next week. Bye bye, guys.