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Speaker 1: Welcome back to the Carol Marko Wood Show on iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: My guest today is Eugene Kantarovitch, Professor at George Mason

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Speaker 1: Law and Senior Research Fellow at the Margaret Thatcher Center

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Speaker 1: for Freedom at the Heritage Foundation.

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Speaker 2: So nice to have you on, Eugene.

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Speaker 3: Thank you, Caro. And I love how you say my name.

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Speaker 2: Did I do it right?

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Speaker 1: I felt like I, you know, I had to do

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Speaker 1: the Russian pronunciation. You and I obviously have one or

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Speaker 1: two things in common. We were both born in the

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Speaker 1: Soviet Union and got out of there as fast as

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Speaker 1: we could.

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Speaker 3: So something about books the New York Post at some point.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I mean I continue to write a column

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Speaker 1: for them, and I know you write for them as well.

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Speaker 1: Tell me about your journey to get to this thing

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Speaker 1: of ours that we do with this public living and pontificating.

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Speaker 3: Okay, so I got to that journey pretty early. So

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Speaker 3: I was born in the Soviet Union and came when

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Speaker 3: I was a little child. I was naturalized in Media

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Speaker 3: County Courthouse outside of Philadelphia when I was ten years old.

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Speaker 3: Still have a memorable experience. Grew up in the suburbs,

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Speaker 3: the normal kind of stuff was always interested in writing

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Speaker 3: and journalism, and I think when I was fourteen, I

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Speaker 3: took I took a train and rode my bicycle into

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Speaker 3: the offices of the Princeton Packet, which was the Princeton

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Speaker 3: local newspaper, and asked for a job, and remarkably I

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Speaker 3: got one.

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Speaker 2: Really at fourteen.

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Speaker 3: They were like, okay, yeah, like a summer internship. It

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Speaker 3: was fine, impressive, but I was very aggressive and I

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Speaker 3: wanted to write articles, and so I pushed my wife

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Speaker 3: kind of into that. And then I got noticed through

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Speaker 3: a secuitous route a man who became a great friend

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Speaker 3: of mine, Seth Lipsky, who hired me to work at

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Speaker 3: the Forward when I was fifteen, and I'll start working.

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Speaker 1: Are you working at the Forward at fifteen?

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Speaker 3: What is that? I was? I was a very cocky

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Speaker 3: and I was a very kid. So there's there's an

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Speaker 3: amazing scene in Yersy Kazinsky's in the book version, in

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Speaker 3: the Peter Sellers version of Yeersy Kazinsky's being there where

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Speaker 3: Peter Sellers is this either badly artistic or retarded man

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Speaker 3: who grows up a very sheltered life. He's a gardener

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Speaker 3: for probably his his father, and then he's thrust into

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Speaker 3: the world and doesn't really understand anything, but by being

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Speaker 3: very simple and offering lots of gardening metaphors, he rises

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Speaker 3: to the top of Washington politics. And in the last scene,

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Speaker 3: he is taking a walk and he gets to a

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Speaker 3: pond and he just continues to walk across it, and

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Speaker 3: it's a metaphor for how he walks across the sun

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Speaker 3: by simply his unawareness. So I was unaware of what else.

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Speaker 3: I started writing for the Wall Street Journal, and then

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Speaker 3: I interned there, and then I worked for the New

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Speaker 3: York Post for colde So I started writing and publishing

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Speaker 3: newspapers quite early. My father was a professor, so always

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Speaker 3: wanted to be a professor. Also, I became a professor,

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Speaker 3: and then I continued writing, and then I kind of

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Speaker 3: started combining things, and some of the you know, topics

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Speaker 3: I started doing academic work on happened to be a

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Speaker 3: public interest and so that's I never really intended to

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Speaker 3: do this, But.

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Speaker 2: How do you end up a law professor from that?

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Speaker 3: So then I wanted to do I always wanted to

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Speaker 3: be a professor because I wanted some kind of deeper

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Speaker 3: body of knowledge. My father was a professor that seemed

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Speaker 3: like a nice life, and I wanted something kind of

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Speaker 3: that seemed to allow for leisure and a little stress

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Speaker 3: Like writing about the Israeli conflict turns out calm work, right,

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Speaker 3: So I went to law school and then embarked upon

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Speaker 3: the path of being a leagan academic. So I started

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Speaker 3: teaching at George Mason that I went to Chicago and Northwestern,

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Speaker 3: been around.

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Speaker 1: So what kind of work do you do at the

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Speaker 1: Margaret Thatcher Center for Freedom for Heritage. What's the senior

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Speaker 1: research fellow there all about?

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Speaker 3: So I think every every researcher got to make their

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Speaker 3: own portfolio. But my work focuses both kind of two areas,

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Speaker 3: the US Israel relationship, which I think benefits of the United

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Speaker 3: States a great deal, and also reclaiming sovereignty for the

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Speaker 3: United States by pushing back on dysfunctional international institutions like

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Speaker 3: the UN, but also maybe like the ICC other examples.

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Speaker 3: So you know, there's different models. Will think tank. I'm

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Speaker 3: not interested in just thinking in a tank. I could

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Speaker 3: do that as a academic, sure, So we try to

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Speaker 3: come up with policies to inform our nation's policy.

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Speaker 2: Maker, to advance the arguments really, but.

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Speaker 3: Also to translate the ideas. So I come on, in

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Speaker 3: ideas you get like as an academic, but to translate

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Speaker 3: them into actionable policies.

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Speaker 1: I saw you post recently about how the UN and

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Speaker 1: the US continually funding the UN is like the antithesis

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Speaker 1: of America. First, I think that's one hundred percent correct,

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Speaker 1: of course, But why do you feel like not a

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Speaker 1: lot of people are making that argument? Why even the

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Speaker 1: American firsters are sort of like, well.

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Speaker 2: The UN said the UN.

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Speaker 1: Does you know, how come that's not a more widespread

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Speaker 1: thought cause I.

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Speaker 3: Don't want to psychoanalyse.

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Speaker 2: Psychoanalyze.

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Speaker 3: Come on, yeah, if you truly believe in MAGA and

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Speaker 3: you're skeptical of US overseas enterprises. So today I happened

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Speaker 3: to be posting today specifically about something very timely, UNIFIL,

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Speaker 3: which is a UN peacekeeping mission, and UN peacekeeping was

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Speaker 3: supposed to be the glory of the UN. They were

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Speaker 3: originally supposed to have these armies under their control, like

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Speaker 3: real UN armies, which would go and stop wars on

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Speaker 3: behalf of the UN. It turns out nobody really wants

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Speaker 3: to die in someone's complete strangers war, and that didn't

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Speaker 3: really no one wants to give the troops to this,

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Speaker 3: so that didn't really happen. But UNIFIL is like the

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Speaker 3: least maga thing ever it is. The US provides twenty

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Speaker 3: eight percent of the budget, more than any other country,

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Speaker 3: so they're paying the salaries of Chinese troops, French troops,

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Speaker 3: and they were supposed to disarm hes Bla. That was

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Speaker 3: kind of their original that was their mandate. Instead, has

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Speaker 3: bar amassed hundreds of thousands of missiles and started launching

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Speaker 3: them in Israel from positions based almost always right next

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Speaker 3: to UNIFIL posts. So UNIFL is kind of like Lebanon,

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Speaker 3: except for more deliberate and it costs hundreds of millions

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Speaker 3: of dollars of US tax payafons with US in between

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Speaker 3: letting Hesbalah set up camp next to their positions. Uh.

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Speaker 3: They also teach gender integration classes for the living owned forces,

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Speaker 3: which is a laugh. We don't get to make money

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Speaker 3: many jokes in this field, subtle.

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Speaker 2: That's a last.

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Speaker 1: Uh.

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Speaker 3: The So there's a country where they can't even integrate

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Speaker 3: like the Shia and the Sunni, and they're going to

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Speaker 3: do so that's that's it. But even here, you know,

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Speaker 3: so so we're hoping that President Trump will veto it

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Speaker 3: because it's actually an area where the US can just

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Speaker 3: kill the mission. But the UN has created this amazing

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Speaker 3: institutional permanence, that is to say, succeed inertia is the

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Speaker 3: UN's superpower. And it's both too big to fail, to

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Speaker 3: bureaucratic for anyone truly to comprehend, and created to be

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Speaker 3: almost immune to reform. So so I think maybe one

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Speaker 3: other the one reason I think maybe some of America

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Speaker 3: first people don't talk about as much as maybe they

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Speaker 3: should Senator to Michael Leader does by the way, Sure, yeah,

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Speaker 3: is because there's almost like a despair, like it's like

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Speaker 3: it's inevitable. Another you know, another reason is because it

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Speaker 3: kind of tries to be it's below the radar, and

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Speaker 3: which we lose our sovereignty and spend off funds on this.

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Speaker 1: What other path do you think you would have taken,

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Speaker 1: if not into public policy, into writing, had you're not

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Speaker 1: gotten the job at fourteen and you hadn't metzet Levski,

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Speaker 1: what would a plan be for Eugene look like?

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Speaker 3: I think I would have been some kind of academic.

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Speaker 3: I had all sorts of academic interests earlier in life.

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Speaker 3: I was interested in Roman history, art criticism, economics. But

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Speaker 3: my father explained to me when I was in college

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Speaker 3: and thinking about graduate school, so that while I might

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Speaker 3: not mind eating last night's pizzas now with a whole

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Speaker 3: bunch of rooms right point, either I or my wife

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Speaker 3: or my kids would.

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Speaker 2: Resent on something more than that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, don't go to the path of the art historian.

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Speaker 3: And I really admire I'm for telling you that because

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Speaker 3: of my he had the presence of mind not just

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Speaker 3: to completely panic and said, because that's that will be

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Speaker 3: clearly a nightmare scenario.

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Speaker 2: But that's that's actually very Soviet, didn't wouldn't you say?

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Speaker 1: Like I, I definitely tell my kids, you know, when

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Speaker 1: they propose various future career paths for themselves, I remind

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Speaker 1: them of how expensive they are right now and how

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Speaker 1: that will only grow and things like that. But also,

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Speaker 1: you know, in the last few years there's been this

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Speaker 1: whole discussion about prestige and all the best you know,

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Speaker 1: colleges and elite and all that, and for ex Soviet,

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Speaker 1: for me, I don't care about elite.

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Speaker 2: I care about them, you know, making money.

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Speaker 1: That's the that's the thinking, that's what I.

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Speaker 2: Was raised with.

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Speaker 1: Who cares about who thinks you're a lead or the

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Speaker 1: prestigious college you went to. I don't want a prestigious

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Speaker 1: college degree. And then you're, you know, making twenty two

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Speaker 1: thousand dollars a year like that, that does not.

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Speaker 2: Mean meaning to me to a job, right, right?

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Speaker 1: Do you feel like that's the kind of background that

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Speaker 1: we were raised with or did you get.

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Speaker 3: Something parents value and sort of success and excellence kind

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Speaker 3: of of any kind. But also, yes, you had to

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Speaker 3: you know, pay to pay your bills and take care

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Speaker 3: of yourself. It's clearly important the equation. Yes, and so

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Speaker 3: definitely in the Soviet Union it wasn't so much about month.

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Speaker 3: There was a greater intertwinement between because prestige only came

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Speaker 3: from the party, and you know, prestige and jobs went

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Speaker 3: hand in hand because there wasn't so much salary bariers.

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Speaker 3: But so there was that was more tied to success.

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Speaker 2: But it was still like what you could get.

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Speaker 1: Yes, you made the same salary, but what your salary

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Speaker 1: could buy it was different. We're going to take a

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Speaker 1: quick break and be right back on the Carol Marcowitch Show.

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Speaker 2: So what do you worry about? What is on your mind?

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Speaker 2: As a concern.

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Speaker 3: You know, I'm a normal person. I think I worry

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Speaker 3: about normal things, money, health, kids, whatever, all the extendard package.

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Speaker 3: But I think my most particular concern, which I've had

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Speaker 3: for quite a long time, bothers me a great deal

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Speaker 3: and has guided I think many of my actions is

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Speaker 3: I have a historical approach. I always have a kind

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Speaker 3: of sense of where we stand in history, and we

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Speaker 3: weven the best time to be a Jew, I think

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Speaker 3: in thousands of years, and I have a dim conception

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Speaker 3: of what it was like during the uh Asmane and

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Speaker 3: Commonwealth or the Dividic Kingdom. You know, it was probably

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Speaker 3: pretty great in one sense, but like on the other hand,

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Speaker 3: the sanitary conditions were kind of like everywhere else. So really,

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Speaker 3: this is maybe the best time drew ever, the safest time,

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Speaker 3: the most stable time and uh And in addition, we

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Speaker 3: have access to our ancestral lan in a way that

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Speaker 3: we're in and that is such a small little filament

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Speaker 3: of history and it's completely game changing philosophically. How how

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Speaker 3: it makes us feel. You know, when you read the

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Speaker 3: medieval anti Semitic writings, Yeah, Martin, they're all the rains

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Speaker 3: now vanishing position in Martin yeah, very popular staples. People

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Speaker 3: getting back. That's part of getting back to the roots.

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Speaker 3: You know, protocols of the others of Zion is like

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Speaker 3: to modern uh. One of the things Marvin Luther would

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Speaker 3: would complain myself. Look, the Jews have lost their land.

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Speaker 3: They've been exiled. That proves they have lost. They have

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Speaker 3: been unchosen, and they're kind of annoying because it's like

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Speaker 3: they're like a loser in a game who refuses to

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Speaker 3: admit lost. That's just annoying. And I understand that point is, Look,

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Speaker 3: they've like lost, and like they still continue to say, wait,

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Speaker 3: game's not over. And it turns out the games not over.

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Speaker 3: So we live in a time where it's much easier,

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Speaker 3: I think to be. And my fear of getting back

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Speaker 3: to that is the God. It's almost too fearful to say,

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Speaker 3: God forbid. My grandkids will would look at me one

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Speaker 3: day and say, grandfather, you had all this and you

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Speaker 3: lost it. You didn't leave it to us. You could

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Speaker 3: go pray in the tomb of the patriarchs in Hevron.

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Speaker 3: And what do we have. We have a little ghetto

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Speaker 3: around Tel Aviv, right, you can travel the whole card.

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Speaker 3: What do we have and already. You know, we see that,

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Speaker 3: you know, I yeah people, you know, I know people

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Speaker 3: who used to be able to go to Bethlehem. I

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Speaker 3: know people who lived in Gaza, right and you know,

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Speaker 3: we don't have that anymore to pass down. So that's

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Speaker 3: that's a tremendous fear, and I feel we need to

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Speaker 3: do everything we can to to pass tho down.

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Speaker 1: It's interesting because you started kind of an optimistic high

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Speaker 1: with things are as good as can be for Jews

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Speaker 1: right now, even though it doesn't always feel like it

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Speaker 1: actually feels like a very dark moment for Jews in

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Speaker 1: the world, but it actually is the strongest we've ever been.

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Speaker 1: We've never had the ability to defend ourselves the way

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Speaker 1: we do in so many ways, not just in Israel,

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Speaker 1: but also I feel like in the United States, being armed,

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Speaker 1: et cetera. But then you ended sort of on a

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Speaker 1: pessimistic what you worry about note where you feel like

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Speaker 1: we could lose it all and we need to be

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Speaker 1: more careful.

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Speaker 3: The question was worded that way, what do I word so?

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Speaker 3: But I think that's they go together because we're at

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Speaker 3: a high point. You know, I can see more downs

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Speaker 3: than ups. So people often ask M I give talks

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Speaker 3: about Israel, international law, explain why Judaan and scenario of

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Speaker 3: the West Bank aren't occupied, to which offer common answer?

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Speaker 3: You know, it's very convincing. It's very convincing. What's the

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Speaker 3: solutions of the conflict? Then everyone wants a solution. When

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Speaker 3: you look at history, you should first adopt a hippocratic

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Speaker 3: approach and first do no harm. And when you are

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Speaker 3: like in the top point zero one percent of historical

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Speaker 3: well being, we can see more ways down than up.

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Speaker 3: And it is truly a messianic sensibility that thinks you're

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Speaker 3: going to break through the ceiling of history and create

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Speaker 3: a new, as yet unseen up.

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Speaker 1: What advice would you give your sixteen year old self

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Speaker 1: having to do this all over again.

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Speaker 3: Ah, the don't throw away the vinyl m.

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Speaker 2: Your kids might be into it someday. My teenager now is.

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Speaker 3: We gotten a turntable? When my daughter said to me

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Speaker 3: that vinyl stuff people used to going on, I have

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Speaker 3: that vinyl stuff.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I add a lot of that vinyl stuff at a

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Speaker 3: radio show in high school. Don't get rid of the vinyl.

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Speaker 3: You know, it's it's hard not to be a horder

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Speaker 3: when you think about how these things are. You never

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Speaker 3: know what the wrong thing is, so that's that's kind

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Speaker 3: of flip flip advice. More seriously, I think I would

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Speaker 3: have told myself to be a little bit less self

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Speaker 3: satisfied and small way.

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Speaker 1: It served you so well, you've got to walk into

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Speaker 1: jobs at like fourteen and sixteen.

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Speaker 3: I think it was probably a double edged sword. I

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Speaker 3: think there were pluses and minuses, but you know, just

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Speaker 3: concept sure, I think I would have seen the world

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Speaker 3: more a little bit more clearly, So that would be

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Speaker 3: one very major piece of advice. And I would you know,

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Speaker 3: I read a huge amount, but I would tell myself

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Speaker 3: to read even more because when you have kids it's impossible. Again,

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Speaker 3: but you got to do everything to read every book

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Speaker 3: before twenty five because then it's going to be recollecting.

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Speaker 1: Then my kids are a little older than yours, I

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Speaker 1: can tell you you're absolutely right reading. My reading went

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Speaker 1: off a cliff after I had kids, but it picks

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Speaker 1: back up again. They hit a certain age where they

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Speaker 1: don't need to be taken to the bathroom and you

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Speaker 1: don't need to be constantly with them, and you get

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Speaker 1: to sit back and watch them hang out and you

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Speaker 1: get to read again.

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Speaker 2: It's quite a nice thing.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Well, I've loved this conversation. This is actually my two

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Speaker 2: hundredth episode and I have yeah, two hundred.

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Speaker 1: I have questions that I ask all of my guests,

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Speaker 1: as my listeners know, and the most popular question and

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Speaker 1: the one I always end with, is leave us here

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Speaker 1: with your best piece of advice for my listeners on

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Speaker 1: how they can improve their lives.

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Speaker 3: Okay, so first of all, I just want to say

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Speaker 3: deal listeners of the Carell markets. I'm only answering this

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Speaker 3: question because I like con and she asked the question

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Speaker 3: on her show. I would never presume around telling people

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Speaker 3: whatever what is good in life or how to lead

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Speaker 3: their life. So I'm only answering because I'm being asked,

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Speaker 3: not because I think I have any particular to share what.

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Speaker 3: I think this works very well for me, and I

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Speaker 3: think I've gotten reasonably good at it is too. That's

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Speaker 3: what's a good way to put this h To not

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Speaker 3: be upset and re act to things. Really, you know,

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Speaker 3: other people's behaviors out of your control. If you're dealing

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Speaker 3: with difficult people, it's almost certainly because they're having a

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Speaker 3: very bad day in some way. You know, maybe they're

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Speaker 3: having a fight with their wife, or maybe they're having

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Speaker 3: a fight with the boss. Everyone's going through some kind

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Speaker 3: of difficulty, and people are going to be difficult. And

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Speaker 3: the only reason that we feel friction as we go

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Speaker 3: through life and encounter with these situations is because we

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Speaker 3: had a differential expectation. What's the basis for that expectation.

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Speaker 3: So cultivating a kind of detachment this is I think

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Speaker 3: very helpful. And I do yo golf, which I find

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Speaker 3: providing a great assistance.

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Speaker 2: Wouldn't have expected that.

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Speaker 3: A lot of people say that I'm a very I

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Speaker 3: go to a teacher who was very, very serious, and

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Speaker 3: it's a staple of my of my life faction the well.

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Speaker 3: And I think there's a very fundamental insight in the yogur.

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Speaker 3: The control of the mind is kind of essential to

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Speaker 3: emotional or mental quality. But you can't have control of

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Speaker 3: the mind without achieving a certain control of the lumberous

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Speaker 3: vessel in which it finds itself. So a lot of

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Speaker 3: people want to like just dive in and meditate and

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Speaker 3: get enlightenment, but they're doing this in this machine that's

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Speaker 3: making all those noise, which meant to quiet down first,

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Speaker 3: but in general to don't take things personally. I think

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Speaker 3: that would be the In short, don't take things personally

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Speaker 3: and really tell yourself that you know something should have

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Speaker 3: to really rise to some kind of horrible moment, which

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Speaker 3: thank god we don't encounter in daily life to justify

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Speaker 3: ruining one's enjoyment of life.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, don't ruin your mood for strangers on the internet,

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Speaker 1: for sure.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much much.

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Speaker 1: He is Eugene Kantorovic. Check him out on x follow him,

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Speaker 1: read his work. He's really fantastic. Thank you so much

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Speaker 1: for coming on, Eugene.

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Speaker 3: Thank you great