1 00:00:01,440 --> 00:00:07,840 Speaker 1: Body buys, but Joseph's got more. I've been having these 2 00:00:07,880 --> 00:00:13,800 Speaker 1: ongoing discussions with my buddy Dave mac and the one 3 00:00:13,840 --> 00:00:18,000 Speaker 1: thing that Dave and I have in common other than 4 00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:23,840 Speaker 1: gray hair, is annoying back injuries. It's just one of 5 00:00:23,880 --> 00:00:28,920 Speaker 1: those things that just sticks with you. It's nagging. And 6 00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:32,760 Speaker 1: just briefly, let me tell you how I wound up 7 00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:37,600 Speaker 1: with back pain when I was twenty or so started 8 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:41,320 Speaker 1: working in the Morgue. And the thing about working in 9 00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:46,120 Speaker 1: the morgue as an autopsy assistant back then, I had 10 00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:50,320 Speaker 1: no help. So daily I would go into the Morgue, 11 00:00:50,520 --> 00:00:55,240 Speaker 1: and being young and arrogant and not knowing the limitations 12 00:00:55,280 --> 00:01:01,040 Speaker 1: of my mortal body, I would move other body sometimes 13 00:01:01,080 --> 00:01:09,360 Speaker 1: that outweighed me times two. I literally remember having a 14 00:01:09,560 --> 00:01:12,679 Speaker 1: five hundred pound body follow on me one day in 15 00:01:12,760 --> 00:01:18,280 Speaker 1: the Moru by myself. It was terrifying, and not in 16 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:21,480 Speaker 1: the sense that ghosties and goblins and those sorts of things. 17 00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:27,760 Speaker 1: It was terrifying thinking this is literally dead weight and 18 00:01:27,840 --> 00:01:34,280 Speaker 1: I am going to have to extricate myself from this body. 19 00:01:34,319 --> 00:01:36,720 Speaker 1: And then once I do, I'm still faced with the 20 00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:41,320 Speaker 1: prospect of getting the body up off the floor. Now 21 00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:44,559 Speaker 1: think about that in a sense of you're one hundred 22 00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:52,360 Speaker 1: and thirty pound woman and for whatever reason, you don't 23 00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:56,000 Speaker 1: like your husband too much and you decide to take 24 00:01:56,000 --> 00:01:59,960 Speaker 1: his life. The only problem is once you take his life, 25 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:01,760 Speaker 1: what do you do with him? How are you going 26 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:06,400 Speaker 1: to move him? Because this guy three hundred pounds plus, 27 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:10,920 Speaker 1: what do you do? Do you call on help, do 28 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:16,040 Speaker 1: you call on adrenaline or do you wish it to disappear? Well, 29 00:02:16,480 --> 00:02:20,320 Speaker 1: in today's case, we're going to talk about an individual 30 00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:26,640 Speaker 1: that certainly took initiative in the case involving her husband 31 00:02:26,840 --> 00:02:30,960 Speaker 1: and his homicide, but she put in a lot of 32 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:37,280 Speaker 1: hard work, but still to no end. Today we're going 33 00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:39,720 Speaker 1: to talk about what is now being referred to as 34 00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:49,400 Speaker 1: the burn Pile murder, involving Melody Ferris out of Georgia. 35 00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:56,959 Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is bodybacks. Many people, 36 00:02:57,040 --> 00:02:59,720 Speaker 1: Dave have heard the term dead weight, and they really 37 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:05,320 Speaker 1: don't understand what it is. I've tried to describe it generally. 38 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:07,480 Speaker 1: The only way I can really describe it to people 39 00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:13,239 Speaker 1: is picking up sacutators, all right, a really big sactators. 40 00:03:13,320 --> 00:03:18,120 Speaker 1: The sactators don't help you when you're moving them. You 41 00:03:18,480 --> 00:03:20,680 Speaker 1: have to do it yourself. Or if you've ever been 42 00:03:20,680 --> 00:03:25,960 Speaker 1: in the military, filling sandbags, moving sandbags. Sandbags don't help you. 43 00:03:25,960 --> 00:03:29,400 Speaker 1: You know, when people are alive, you don't think about it. 44 00:03:29,440 --> 00:03:32,959 Speaker 1: But let's say, for instance, even if you're a more 45 00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:35,720 Speaker 1: diminutive person, you wrap your arms around somebody and you 46 00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:40,920 Speaker 1: pick them up. People don't understand kind of the biomechanics 47 00:03:40,920 --> 00:03:43,280 Speaker 1: of this and the fact that the person that is 48 00:03:43,280 --> 00:03:47,160 Speaker 1: being picked up is technically helping you because of their 49 00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:52,160 Speaker 1: inner ear, their equilibrium. They adjust. Now, sometimes this winds 50 00:03:52,200 --> 00:03:56,560 Speaker 1: up badly, but it's different than deadweight. And in our 51 00:03:56,640 --> 00:04:02,240 Speaker 1: case today, we've got this diminutive wife who decided that 52 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:05,240 Speaker 1: she was going to do something rather ghastly with her 53 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:09,920 Speaker 1: husband's remains, who, by the way, she had murdered. Wow. 54 00:04:10,520 --> 00:04:16,960 Speaker 2: The story of the burn pile murder. Melody Ferris accused 55 00:04:17,120 --> 00:04:20,880 Speaker 2: of killing her husband Gary Ferris, fifty eight years old 56 00:04:20,880 --> 00:04:24,200 Speaker 2: at the time. He's a big guy, pushing three hundred 57 00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:26,359 Speaker 2: pounds when he was like six foot four. He was 58 00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:29,320 Speaker 2: not a small man her one hundred and thirty pound frame. 59 00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:32,679 Speaker 2: I thought the first thing was she either had help 60 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:35,320 Speaker 2: or something else. 61 00:04:35,640 --> 00:04:38,600 Speaker 1: Well, well, let me freeze you, right, there. You know 62 00:04:38,640 --> 00:04:42,360 Speaker 1: what Kim said, My wife said when I told her 63 00:04:42,400 --> 00:04:43,960 Speaker 1: that we're going to do this case, because she's kind 64 00:04:43,960 --> 00:04:47,560 Speaker 1: of been following it, she said, she had to have 65 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:52,640 Speaker 1: had a wheelbarrow. That's that's what That's what Kim was saying. Sure, 66 00:04:52,680 --> 00:04:54,960 Speaker 1: you know, and so you know you have to think 67 00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:55,600 Speaker 1: of it that way. 68 00:04:55,760 --> 00:04:59,119 Speaker 2: Well, here's what else though, in looking at the case, 69 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:06,280 Speaker 2: the actual geography of the area. They have a ten 70 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:11,960 Speaker 2: acre farm in Georgia, just outside of Atlanta, and the 71 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:15,560 Speaker 2: when you look at pictures overhead the map view, yeah, 72 00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:19,760 Speaker 2: it doesn't show the terrain. And even looking at some 73 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:23,040 Speaker 2: of the pictures there, it didn't show the grade of 74 00:05:23,080 --> 00:05:26,279 Speaker 2: the hill. Yep, it was only a juror that went 75 00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:28,320 Speaker 2: there to the scene because they were able to take 76 00:05:28,600 --> 00:05:32,480 Speaker 2: this has been adjudicated, and they took the jury out 77 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:36,320 Speaker 2: to the scene, and that was what convinced a juror 78 00:05:36,640 --> 00:05:41,039 Speaker 2: that Melody Ferris could do it by herself. And so 79 00:05:41,200 --> 00:05:44,120 Speaker 2: I listened to her and she explained it the grade 80 00:05:44,720 --> 00:05:48,279 Speaker 2: from the house to the to the fire of the 81 00:05:48,279 --> 00:05:52,760 Speaker 2: burn pile was actually enough of a grade downhill that 82 00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:55,680 Speaker 2: gravity could have had something to do with her ability 83 00:05:55,680 --> 00:05:59,240 Speaker 2: to get him in there by herself. Now, Joe, I 84 00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:01,279 Speaker 2: have to ask ask you this right now, because you 85 00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:04,239 Speaker 2: have filed it. As you followed around and you mentioned Kim. 86 00:06:04,839 --> 00:06:07,680 Speaker 2: We have a couple that's been married for three decades. 87 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:11,040 Speaker 2: There has been in fidelity. There's been a lot going 88 00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:14,360 Speaker 2: on here in this case. But you have a man, 89 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:18,600 Speaker 2: a very large man, who actually dies and falls into 90 00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:20,919 Speaker 2: the burn pit when police are called to the scene. 91 00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:24,360 Speaker 2: When they get the call, they show up because there's 92 00:06:24,400 --> 00:06:27,040 Speaker 2: a dude that is burned to death in the burn file, 93 00:06:27,160 --> 00:06:28,880 Speaker 2: and they thought he had a heart attack and fell 94 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:32,760 Speaker 2: in that some type of medical issue happened. They did 95 00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:36,280 Speaker 2: not at first think he had been murdered and then 96 00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:39,560 Speaker 2: drug into the burn pile, right, And it was at 97 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:42,960 Speaker 2: first it looked at that way, I say, at first, 98 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:46,359 Speaker 2: but I know that there's two things that happen in 99 00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:49,719 Speaker 2: an investigation. There is the thing that they talk to 100 00:06:49,800 --> 00:06:52,800 Speaker 2: in the media and other people, and then there's the 101 00:06:52,880 --> 00:06:59,080 Speaker 2: thing they talk about amongst themselves. Some hinky here something right, yeah, yeah, 102 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:01,440 Speaker 2: And that's what happened. And in this case, while they 103 00:07:01,520 --> 00:07:04,520 Speaker 2: publicly were saying, you know, we believe that he had 104 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:08,919 Speaker 2: a medical emergency of some sort and fell into the 105 00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:11,840 Speaker 2: burn pile and that's what caused his demise and that 106 00:07:12,520 --> 00:07:14,040 Speaker 2: he had to be He was burned enough that he 107 00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:17,840 Speaker 2: had to be identified by dental records. So this lays 108 00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:19,920 Speaker 2: out a case for us, Joseph Scott Morgan and I'm 109 00:07:19,960 --> 00:07:24,360 Speaker 2: so glad. I'm not glad recovering it because it means 110 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:25,440 Speaker 2: that somebody is dead in. 111 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:27,440 Speaker 1: A very heav This is what we do, man, But 112 00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:29,200 Speaker 1: I can't flee from that. That's right, we do. 113 00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:32,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, But after doing the show with you many times, 114 00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:35,920 Speaker 2: you have discussed what it would take to build a 115 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:42,080 Speaker 2: fire to break down a body to the point where 116 00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:44,960 Speaker 2: you couldn't identify it. And you have said on this 117 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:48,400 Speaker 2: show to me many times, you would have to have 118 00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:52,280 Speaker 2: that thing burning really hot and for a really long time. 119 00:07:52,760 --> 00:07:56,440 Speaker 1: Yep, yep, yeah, you do. Uh, and it takes, it 120 00:07:56,480 --> 00:07:59,520 Speaker 1: takes a protracted period of time. And let me let 121 00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:02,360 Speaker 1: me direct our friends here to a video if you've 122 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:06,760 Speaker 1: never seen it out there, and it's actually on YouTube, 123 00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:10,560 Speaker 1: and it is a video. I think it's called Secrets 124 00:08:10,560 --> 00:08:14,240 Speaker 1: of the Body Farm. And people think that it's all 125 00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:19,760 Speaker 1: going to be about skeletal remains and it's not because 126 00:08:19,800 --> 00:08:24,360 Speaker 1: they actually do testing and this is gruesome. I got 127 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:27,320 Speaker 1: to tell you right from Jump Street, it's very gruesome. 128 00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:33,200 Speaker 1: The forensic anthropology PhD students, what they will do up 129 00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:37,640 Speaker 1: there is actually dismember a body and they will starting 130 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:42,400 Speaker 1: using charcoal, like you know charcoal that you're get in 131 00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:47,280 Speaker 1: a bag. They'll start with multiple bags of charcoal and 132 00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:48,920 Speaker 1: they'll get a fire roll in with it and they 133 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:52,520 Speaker 1: have a big pit and then they feed it with 134 00:08:52,640 --> 00:08:57,000 Speaker 1: wood and then they'll take a dismembered human remain. And 135 00:08:57,040 --> 00:08:59,240 Speaker 1: this is actually on camera. It's one of the I've 136 00:08:59,240 --> 00:09:02,320 Speaker 1: actually had students that left the room when they were watching, 137 00:09:02,320 --> 00:09:05,080 Speaker 1: and this is available on YouTube. It's not like I 138 00:09:05,080 --> 00:09:07,199 Speaker 1: guess there might be an age requirement. I have no idea. 139 00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:09,600 Speaker 1: That's not my that's not my areas down the hall 140 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:15,520 Speaker 1: to the left. But you can see you can see 141 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:20,160 Speaker 1: just with a single arm, the arm beginning to contract. 142 00:09:20,520 --> 00:09:24,440 Speaker 1: And the reason it contracts is, you know, we we 143 00:09:24,559 --> 00:09:29,480 Speaker 1: have this the way the body is structured, all of 144 00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:32,720 Speaker 1: the connected tissue, as a result of the heat, responds 145 00:09:32,760 --> 00:09:35,200 Speaker 1: to the heat by drawing up. So you know, if 146 00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:39,719 Speaker 1: you find a body that has been burned, you'll have 147 00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:42,920 Speaker 1: them in what's referred to as the fighter's position, or 148 00:09:42,920 --> 00:09:46,000 Speaker 1: the pugilistic position. The hands actually draw up to the 149 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:49,760 Speaker 1: face and the head like you're you know, pugilism is 150 00:09:49,800 --> 00:09:52,080 Speaker 1: actually a term that used to be applied to boxing. 151 00:09:52,559 --> 00:09:55,800 Speaker 1: You're a pugilist, and it was they didn't know the 152 00:09:55,880 --> 00:09:59,000 Speaker 1: term boxing, so that we talk about pugilism what it's 153 00:09:59,040 --> 00:10:03,080 Speaker 1: called a pew jollistic posture. So the hands contract, you know, 154 00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:06,720 Speaker 1: the fingers, the risk contract, the elbows contract, and even 155 00:10:06,720 --> 00:10:08,840 Speaker 1: the shoulders and the arms will draw up like this. 156 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:11,679 Speaker 1: It almost looks like they're in a protective pose as 157 00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:15,000 Speaker 1: opposed to, you know, like an attack pose. But the 158 00:10:15,040 --> 00:10:17,160 Speaker 1: only thing that could really come up with is, hey, 159 00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:19,520 Speaker 1: this person looks like a boxer. And the reason I 160 00:10:19,559 --> 00:10:22,679 Speaker 1: bring up this this idea the Secrets of the Body Form. 161 00:10:22,880 --> 00:10:25,320 Speaker 1: I think that's the name of the title. Somebody correct me, 162 00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:28,920 Speaker 1: but is that it gives you a real insight into 163 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:33,800 Speaker 1: what we see at the scenes and you're talking about. 164 00:10:34,240 --> 00:10:38,920 Speaker 1: First off, you do have the initial like spot on 165 00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:41,560 Speaker 1: heat that you're dealing with at that moment in time 166 00:10:42,559 --> 00:10:45,840 Speaker 1: where you know, you introduce a body into a bonfire 167 00:10:45,880 --> 00:10:47,600 Speaker 1: and let's say you've got it rolling for a while. 168 00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:50,960 Speaker 1: It might be I don't know, anywhere from nine hundred 169 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:59,000 Speaker 1: toy maybe top in thirteen hundred degrees, and you'll get 170 00:10:59,040 --> 00:11:03,440 Speaker 1: that initial burst of heat when a body is exposed 171 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:08,679 Speaker 1: to that. However, the big part with outdoor bonfires and 172 00:11:08,840 --> 00:11:11,360 Speaker 1: burn pits is that the fires, and I think this 173 00:11:11,480 --> 00:11:16,000 Speaker 1: might be what you're getting today, fires have to be tended. Well. 174 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:24,960 Speaker 1: The fires are tended, you have to have them in 175 00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:27,920 Speaker 1: in a position where you have ongoing fuel. You have 176 00:11:29,160 --> 00:11:33,400 Speaker 1: an uninterrupted source of oxygen. Okay, where oxygen is free flowing, 177 00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:35,520 Speaker 1: it's fueling. You know. You have to have oxygen to 178 00:11:35,559 --> 00:11:38,920 Speaker 1: have fire, and then you have to have fuel in 179 00:11:38,960 --> 00:11:42,640 Speaker 1: the form of wood or something else that's flammable to 180 00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:45,640 Speaker 1: maintain that heat. Because have you ever seen a fire 181 00:11:45,679 --> 00:11:48,320 Speaker 1: that'll kind of go cold. It'll be warm, you know, 182 00:11:49,120 --> 00:11:52,560 Speaker 1: but when you add fuel to it again, it kind 183 00:11:52,559 --> 00:11:56,800 Speaker 1: of bursts burst up. And in order to sustain that 184 00:11:56,920 --> 00:11:59,960 Speaker 1: level of heat, not only do you have to put 185 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:03,079 Speaker 1: wood or another fuel source on it, but you also 186 00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:07,720 Speaker 1: have to turn it. And whatever happened out there at 187 00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:12,200 Speaker 1: that burn pit when his body was taken out their Dave, 188 00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:19,000 Speaker 1: his body was burned to the point that you have 189 00:12:19,320 --> 00:12:22,880 Speaker 1: whate referred to as fourth degree burns. Most people don't 190 00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:27,439 Speaker 1: think about fourth degree burns. They only think about first, second, third. Well, 191 00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:30,160 Speaker 1: if you have fourth degree burning, fourth gree burning means 192 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:34,559 Speaker 1: that you literally have you have elements of the skeleton 193 00:12:34,679 --> 00:12:40,679 Speaker 1: that are visible. Now, do living people actually have fourth 194 00:12:40,679 --> 00:12:43,160 Speaker 1: degree burns and can survive because you know your chance 195 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:47,120 Speaker 1: is to surviving third degree burns are slim and none. 196 00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:52,400 Speaker 1: It's dependent upon where you know the surface area that's 197 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:55,800 Speaker 1: involved fourth degree burns. I have heard of these cases 198 00:12:55,840 --> 00:12:59,319 Speaker 1: where people are trapped in a location and it's generally 199 00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:05,720 Speaker 1: like a a burning vehicle. The fire is only say, 200 00:13:07,400 --> 00:13:11,839 Speaker 1: making contact with maybe the feet and the ankles, and 201 00:13:11,920 --> 00:13:14,520 Speaker 1: the rest of the body is protected. There have been 202 00:13:14,559 --> 00:13:18,719 Speaker 1: cases where people's feet have literally been burned off. And 203 00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:22,240 Speaker 1: if you can, you know, if the person can, if 204 00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:24,640 Speaker 1: you can prevent them from going into shock, you can 205 00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:27,439 Speaker 1: survive it. But it's such a This guy had force 206 00:13:27,559 --> 00:13:30,480 Speaker 1: green burns all over his body to the point where 207 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:36,120 Speaker 1: his ribs were all visible. And it creates a real 208 00:13:36,280 --> 00:13:39,880 Speaker 1: problem for you as an investigator because you know what's 209 00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:42,360 Speaker 1: the purpose of fire. Well, it's not just a heat source. 210 00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:47,199 Speaker 1: It's used to destroy things. Okay, that's why that's why 211 00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:54,640 Speaker 1: those with malevolent intentions use fire Because they're trying to 212 00:13:55,520 --> 00:13:59,440 Speaker 1: eradicate any evidence that might be there, anything that would 213 00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:04,760 Speaker 1: wipe away their connection to perhaps a death, or maybe 214 00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:08,360 Speaker 1: some other bit of evidence involving a nefarious action that 215 00:14:08,440 --> 00:14:13,000 Speaker 1: they might have been engaged in. But we do know 216 00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:21,440 Speaker 1: this with the body of this gentleman that Melody Ferris 217 00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:25,920 Speaker 1: essentially torched, this is her own husband, who she has 218 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:30,440 Speaker 1: created a family with and had children. We do know 219 00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:37,239 Speaker 1: that heat was applied by her in order to eradicate 220 00:14:38,560 --> 00:14:56,200 Speaker 1: any memory of him. I don't know what it takes, Dave. 221 00:14:56,680 --> 00:15:00,040 Speaker 1: I've thought about this for many years. What button it 222 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:07,280 Speaker 1: has to be pushed so that it drives an individual 223 00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:10,040 Speaker 1: to look at the person that's laying in bed next 224 00:15:10,040 --> 00:15:13,080 Speaker 1: to them or maybe in this case, occupying another wing 225 00:15:13,160 --> 00:15:15,440 Speaker 1: of the home. We'll get into that in a second. 226 00:15:17,120 --> 00:15:20,000 Speaker 1: What drives this individual to the point where they say, Okay, 227 00:15:20,080 --> 00:15:23,160 Speaker 1: I'm not going to leave, I'm not going to walk 228 00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:25,720 Speaker 1: away and start my life over. What drives that person 229 00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:31,960 Speaker 1: to the point where Okay, I'm going to take firearm 230 00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:38,520 Speaker 1: fired into their body and burn them up. You know, still, 231 00:15:38,520 --> 00:15:40,440 Speaker 1: to this day, I don't know that there is a 232 00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:45,080 Speaker 1: specific point that is uniform, you know, a long spectrum. 233 00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:49,200 Speaker 1: I don't know if there is is an actual trigger 234 00:15:49,240 --> 00:15:53,440 Speaker 1: point for that, but I've always been fascinated by the 235 00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:56,360 Speaker 1: proverbial straw that broke the camel's back, and I think 236 00:15:56,400 --> 00:15:59,120 Speaker 1: that there were a lot of these instances throughout this marriage, 237 00:15:59,160 --> 00:15:59,720 Speaker 1: weren't there day. 238 00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:05,480 Speaker 2: Gary Ferris was a very successful attorney in Atlanta, a 239 00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:08,040 Speaker 2: corporate attorney dealing with a lot of big business, is 240 00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:12,160 Speaker 2: a lot of big money, and they had some squabbles 241 00:16:12,160 --> 00:16:14,840 Speaker 2: about money, and when Gary finally took her off the 242 00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:16,800 Speaker 2: bank account, it was like, yeah, I trust you and 243 00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:19,280 Speaker 2: we're going to work this out, but you're not having 244 00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:23,120 Speaker 2: access to this anymore. And there were some accusations made 245 00:16:23,160 --> 00:16:25,840 Speaker 2: about what she had done with money, you know, and 246 00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:28,280 Speaker 2: which gave him the reason to do it. We have 247 00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:31,680 Speaker 2: a relationship pretty much in ruins when it comes to trust. 248 00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:34,960 Speaker 2: You mentioned early on what would take make somebody look 249 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:37,520 Speaker 2: over the person that they've been spending their life with 250 00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:41,600 Speaker 2: and decide, I'm going to take this person out, and 251 00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:44,080 Speaker 2: I'm going to do it in such a way that 252 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:46,680 Speaker 2: I can get away with it. He's going to be 253 00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:48,440 Speaker 2: dead and I'm going to burn his remains in the fire, 254 00:16:48,520 --> 00:16:50,400 Speaker 2: so they can't even find out what killed him. And 255 00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:52,480 Speaker 2: to be honest with you, it almost worked, Joe. The 256 00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:54,280 Speaker 2: only thing that really hit in this. There are so 257 00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:56,920 Speaker 2: many questions I have in this for you, Okay. Right 258 00:16:57,400 --> 00:17:02,160 Speaker 2: when police are called to the scene, the body had 259 00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:04,639 Speaker 2: been on the fire long enough to be down to 260 00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:08,200 Speaker 2: where they could not identify him. They didn't know how 261 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:11,480 Speaker 2: tall he was because of what was left of the remains. 262 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:15,080 Speaker 2: You mentioned, his rib cage was showing. And after they 263 00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:17,960 Speaker 2: looked at him and identify him with dental records, then 264 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:23,200 Speaker 2: they notice, hey, there's a bullet in one of these ribs. Yep, 265 00:17:23,320 --> 00:17:26,840 Speaker 2: And all of a sudden, now it's a murder investigation. 266 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:31,600 Speaker 2: It's a homicide and I want to know. And here's 267 00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:34,280 Speaker 2: I wrote it down, because there are things we don't know, 268 00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:38,359 Speaker 2: even after the trial, Joe, we do not know I 269 00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:41,399 Speaker 2: mean this. We know that Gary Ferris had a bullet 270 00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:44,719 Speaker 2: in his rib, one of his ribs, but we do 271 00:17:44,840 --> 00:17:50,720 Speaker 2: not know where he was shot. We don't know when 272 00:17:51,119 --> 00:17:55,920 Speaker 2: he was shot. We don't know how his body ended 273 00:17:56,000 --> 00:17:59,840 Speaker 2: up on the burn pile. He could have been shot 274 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:03,240 Speaker 2: right there and then pushed in the burn pile or 275 00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:05,280 Speaker 2: he could have been murdered in the basement of the 276 00:18:05,320 --> 00:18:08,840 Speaker 2: house and drugged down to the burn pile. But even 277 00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:14,439 Speaker 2: after the trial, and we don't know, and you're the investigator, I. 278 00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:17,960 Speaker 1: Don't know that, brother, I don't know that we'll ever know, 279 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:22,480 Speaker 1: you know, sequencing here because again, you know, you still 280 00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:25,679 Speaker 1: have that bit of doubt that exists there. And I 281 00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:27,760 Speaker 1: think that if this case ever went up on appeal, 282 00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:32,000 Speaker 1: that could be an underpinning, you know, to kind of 283 00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:39,200 Speaker 1: build that whole process out. It's fascinating to me because 284 00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:42,560 Speaker 1: one of the things that you lose with with the 285 00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:46,119 Speaker 1: burned bodies, and this goes to what you had mentioned 286 00:18:46,119 --> 00:18:53,760 Speaker 1: about getting gettngary ided is that you lose elements of 287 00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:57,240 Speaker 1: the body to the extent that and I've had this happen. 288 00:18:57,640 --> 00:19:00,600 Speaker 1: You cannot get a height on a body. Again. You 289 00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:04,880 Speaker 1: receive a body in a body bag that has come 290 00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:07,159 Speaker 1: from a house fire or from any kind of fire. 291 00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:10,120 Speaker 1: And do you remember how I was talking about pugilism. 292 00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:14,680 Speaker 1: You'll have the body drawn up and it almost looks 293 00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:18,119 Speaker 1: like a fetal position. The hips are flexed, the knees 294 00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:20,840 Speaker 1: are flexed, and they flexed to the point where they're 295 00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:24,760 Speaker 1: contracted where they're drawn in to the torso okay, and 296 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:28,160 Speaker 1: then the arms and the shoulders actually kind of drop 297 00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:33,320 Speaker 1: down and draw up like this. You're losing volume. What's 298 00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:38,919 Speaker 1: the first thing that you're going to lose with with 299 00:19:39,119 --> 00:19:44,080 Speaker 1: fire a body that's exposed to fire. Well, I think 300 00:19:44,119 --> 00:19:47,840 Speaker 1: some people would say, oh, well, you know, clothing, hair 301 00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:53,120 Speaker 1: that that might be accurate. Those are very superficial things. 302 00:19:53,119 --> 00:19:58,120 Speaker 1: What's going to lose is water weight? Because you'd be surprised. 303 00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:01,159 Speaker 1: I think people would really be. You know, there's the 304 00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:05,240 Speaker 1: adage that you know, there's an overwhelming percentage of our 305 00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:08,400 Speaker 1: total body is made up of water. I think we've 306 00:20:08,440 --> 00:20:11,959 Speaker 1: heard that for years and years, and that is the honest, 307 00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:15,520 Speaker 1: goodness truth. Even when you look at a bone, a 308 00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:18,760 Speaker 1: singular bone that has been burned, you can one of 309 00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:22,320 Speaker 1: the things that forensic anthropologists do, and there's a forensic 310 00:20:22,359 --> 00:20:24,800 Speaker 1: pathologist that is involved in this case. By the way, 311 00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:29,040 Speaker 1: you will actually take Let's say you have a human femur, 312 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:32,800 Speaker 1: which is the largest long bone in the body. It's 313 00:20:32,840 --> 00:20:35,240 Speaker 1: where your hip is extends down to your knee. It's 314 00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:40,680 Speaker 1: the most robust that bone. If you have a suspected 315 00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:46,160 Speaker 1: guide that is X number of years old a height 316 00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:49,920 Speaker 1: in life that you know of, and maybe three hundred pounds. 317 00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:56,679 Speaker 1: The bone itself has an expected weight. Okay, Now, if 318 00:20:56,720 --> 00:21:00,800 Speaker 1: you pick that bone up, it'll have a if it's 319 00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:06,240 Speaker 1: not charred completely, it will have kind of a yellowed, 320 00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:10,760 Speaker 1: almost parchment like appearance to it. And that goes to heat. 321 00:21:11,119 --> 00:21:15,080 Speaker 1: And what's happened is the bone is actually cooked from 322 00:21:15,119 --> 00:21:18,080 Speaker 1: the inside out. You lose all of the water that's 323 00:21:18,119 --> 00:21:21,359 Speaker 1: contained in there, so the bone is actually lighter when 324 00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:25,840 Speaker 1: you're holding I've actually done this. I've actually held two. 325 00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:30,840 Speaker 1: I don't think there were femurs. There were two humorouses 326 00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:34,000 Speaker 1: or humor eye, I don't know, the upper long bones 327 00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:38,719 Speaker 1: in the arms, and one had been subjected to indirect fire, 328 00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:43,399 Speaker 1: not in the flame, but adjacent, you know, so that 329 00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:46,560 Speaker 1: its heat, you know, heat is impacting it, and the 330 00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:51,040 Speaker 1: other had in fact remained intact. And you could tell 331 00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:55,840 Speaker 1: that there is a precipitous difference between the two ways 332 00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:58,919 Speaker 1: because the water has all gone out. So one of 333 00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:03,240 Speaker 1: the ways that we get bodies identified, Dave traditionally has 334 00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:06,000 Speaker 1: been visual inspection of the body. Now, you know, you 335 00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:07,720 Speaker 1: can go back to the old days where we would 336 00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:10,120 Speaker 1: show families the body. You know, you pull it back 337 00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:12,879 Speaker 1: and you know the sheet and everything, and you know 338 00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:17,760 Speaker 1: in Hollywood people faint or they gasp. Those things do happen, 339 00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:20,840 Speaker 1: but not so much in a case like this. It 340 00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:24,879 Speaker 1: would be the height of cruelty to show a family 341 00:22:24,920 --> 00:22:29,760 Speaker 1: member or body that has charred and contracted and burned 342 00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:34,000 Speaker 1: beyond recognition. So now you reliant upon the science. You 343 00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:36,879 Speaker 1: know what, what physical elements are still there that you 344 00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:40,880 Speaker 1: can say, Okay, this is in fact this man who 345 00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:43,880 Speaker 1: is now currently missing, and we suspect that this is him, 346 00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:47,000 Speaker 1: it's on his property and he's deceased. Well, the only 347 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:51,199 Speaker 1: thing you have left to turn to is, you know, 348 00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:56,560 Speaker 1: or his teeth. Here, here's one other piece to this. 349 00:22:56,880 --> 00:23:00,640 Speaker 1: I think that's very important. When they when they received 350 00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:04,240 Speaker 1: this body day in the body bag, before that body 351 00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:06,480 Speaker 1: is ever going to be opened, the bag is ever 352 00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:07,880 Speaker 1: going to be opened. I can tell you where they 353 00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:11,440 Speaker 1: did this autops. They did it at GBI headquarters where 354 00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:14,160 Speaker 1: the State Medical Examiner's office is. I was actually signed 355 00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:16,840 Speaker 1: there for I think seven or eight of the longest 356 00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:20,360 Speaker 1: months of my life working for the State Medical Examiner 357 00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:25,119 Speaker 1: for a while in Georgia. The first thing that's going 358 00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:26,600 Speaker 1: to happen is that body is going to be x 359 00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:34,240 Speaker 1: rayed in the bag. And when you're collecting a body 360 00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:38,320 Speaker 1: at a fire scene, here's what happens. And this happens 361 00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:42,000 Speaker 1: particularly with structural fires. Many times you will go after 362 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:45,080 Speaker 1: the actual body has been lifted out of that space. 363 00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:49,680 Speaker 1: It's a practice to take a shovel, like a very 364 00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:52,080 Speaker 1: broad have you ever seen these really broad shovels. They're 365 00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:53,600 Speaker 1: not as big as a snowshovel. 366 00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:55,360 Speaker 2: I was going to say kind of like a snowshovel, but. 367 00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:59,040 Speaker 1: It kind of but a little bit smaller. We actually 368 00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:01,560 Speaker 1: scoop stuff up and then put it in the bag 369 00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:04,560 Speaker 1: along with the body. And sometimes they'll bag it individually, 370 00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:07,160 Speaker 1: and if they do, that's fine, it will still accompany 371 00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:10,040 Speaker 1: the body. To the more, all those bags before you 372 00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:14,040 Speaker 1: open them will in fact be x rayed. Okay. And 373 00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:16,600 Speaker 1: just to give you an idea when when you have 374 00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:19,120 Speaker 1: like a house fire, if this is a traditional burn 375 00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:20,919 Speaker 1: pit which they're using, which a lot of people in 376 00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:23,640 Speaker 1: the country have burn pits because they're getting ready of debris, 377 00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:28,840 Speaker 1: old lumber trees that are broken down, anything that's there 378 00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:31,400 Speaker 1: that it can't be hauled off or they don't want 379 00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:33,040 Speaker 1: to haul it off. They're just going to burn it 380 00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:36,919 Speaker 1: right there. So many times what will happen is that 381 00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:44,200 Speaker 1: when you're X ray in a body, you'll see old nails, screws, washers, nuts, 382 00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:48,800 Speaker 1: I found old bottle caps. What else have I found? 383 00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:54,280 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, bullets? And it's a radio opaque appearance when 384 00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:57,760 Speaker 1: you're seeing these things. The problem is when you're talking 385 00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:02,399 Speaker 1: when you're talking about a burned body and you're trying 386 00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:06,359 Speaker 1: to assess what's in there. Is that because the body 387 00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:12,080 Speaker 1: is so has been so anatomically compromised, Dave that when 388 00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:13,840 Speaker 1: you look at the x ray, it's not like going 389 00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:16,359 Speaker 1: to the hospital and getting an X ray where you 390 00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:20,400 Speaker 1: can say, okay, you've got a fracture of the head 391 00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:23,320 Speaker 1: of your humorous or whatever. It's right here. Let things 392 00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:27,040 Speaker 1: displace now because of fire, and not to mention anything 393 00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:29,600 Speaker 1: that attached itself to the body as the body is 394 00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:33,960 Speaker 1: cooking in there, and so it's all a skewed there's 395 00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:39,080 Speaker 1: no real The standard anatomical orientation that you're looking at 396 00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:41,400 Speaker 1: when you're reading an X ray, say like in the hospital, 397 00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:46,080 Speaker 1: doesn't apply in the MORKU. It's all skewed because everything's 398 00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:53,359 Speaker 1: so contracted. It is outside the norms. So you really 399 00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:55,080 Speaker 1: have to be creative with the way you're looking at 400 00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:56,879 Speaker 1: this thing, because you can't. Even though you have the 401 00:25:57,080 --> 00:26:00,199 Speaker 1: X ray and you've got it upon a lightboard the 402 00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:03,639 Speaker 1: autopsy room, when you open that bag, you still have 403 00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:08,280 Speaker 1: to be very careful. My suspicion is is that when 404 00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:13,119 Speaker 1: they began to open this bag, they knew from that moment. 405 00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:15,960 Speaker 1: Can you imagine what an epiphany this was in a morgue, 406 00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:18,560 Speaker 1: because I've been there to see this happen, and it's 407 00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:24,320 Speaker 1: it is. It is amazing. To say the least, it 408 00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:27,080 Speaker 1: sends a chill up your spine because you'll have like 409 00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:30,360 Speaker 1: a house fire. I've had two things that have really 410 00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:34,560 Speaker 1: chilled me over the years relative to evidence, finding bullets 411 00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:39,720 Speaker 1: and finding broken knife blades, particularly the tip of a 412 00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:42,880 Speaker 1: blade that has been snapped off in a bone after 413 00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:46,840 Speaker 1: it's been you know, buried in this person's body multiple times, 414 00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:49,440 Speaker 1: and you'll see these things on it and you think, 415 00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:51,679 Speaker 1: oh my gosh, because at first you don't believe what 416 00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:55,679 Speaker 1: you're seeing, say, oh my gosh, you know, did I 417 00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:58,880 Speaker 1: miss something. I've got to be really really careful now. 418 00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:04,080 Speaker 1: The other thing that you contend with, just like you 419 00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:06,280 Speaker 1: know how I was talking about how the bone loses, 420 00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:09,960 Speaker 1: It loses that volume of water that it contains and 421 00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:14,960 Speaker 1: it changes. Well, bullets, which are a lead core projectile, 422 00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:21,280 Speaker 1: their dimensions will become compromised in a fire as well. 423 00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:26,199 Speaker 1: So let's just say we have a projectile that weighs 424 00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:30,240 Speaker 1: a certain number of grains, okay, which is how bullets 425 00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:36,000 Speaker 1: are measured in weight grains. You might look at it 426 00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:40,040 Speaker 1: in dimensionally. Say, for instance, you know, when you're looking 427 00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:43,520 Speaker 1: at the size of the bullet, if you've got the 428 00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:47,399 Speaker 1: base of the bullet, you can approximate the caliber, like 429 00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:52,479 Speaker 1: is it a nine to milimeter, a forty cow is it, 430 00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:55,119 Speaker 1: I don't know, a twenty two caliber. In this case, 431 00:27:55,840 --> 00:28:00,480 Speaker 1: we're looking at thirty eight okay. Now, every he's heard 432 00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:03,440 Speaker 1: the term thirty eight, most of the time it's associated 433 00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:07,400 Speaker 1: with a round that's called a thirty eight special, which 434 00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:13,720 Speaker 1: is a revolver round. That's compared to a point three 435 00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:18,639 Speaker 1: eight zero, which is a three point eighty, which is 436 00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:23,280 Speaker 1: actually a semi automatic round. Well, dimensionally, their circumference is 437 00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:29,720 Speaker 1: the same point three eight inches in circumference, Well, you 438 00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:32,679 Speaker 1: lose that volume of the weight of the bullet. Now, 439 00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:36,080 Speaker 1: if you have the base, you can still approximate the caliber, 440 00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:39,880 Speaker 1: but you're losing elements of that along the way. What 441 00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:42,600 Speaker 1: they did take note of, though, is that there will 442 00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:50,280 Speaker 1: fracture bony bony structures within the body that had been 443 00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:54,320 Speaker 1: probably fractured by the bullet. The bullet was actually found 444 00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:58,040 Speaker 1: lodged in a rib, but one of the things they 445 00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:02,200 Speaker 1: were faced with. They knew that they had point three eight, 446 00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:06,240 Speaker 1: But the question is did it come from a three 447 00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:10,080 Speaker 1: eighty auto or did it come from I'm thirty eight 448 00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:28,080 Speaker 1: special Dave. I'm showing Dave right now. You guys can't 449 00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:31,560 Speaker 1: see it obviously because we're not on YouTube yet, but 450 00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:33,720 Speaker 1: Dave and I we have camera between us. I'm showing 451 00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:39,080 Speaker 1: Dave right now a nine millimeter projectile and the people 452 00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:42,040 Speaker 1: are pocket come to work. No, I'm not going to 453 00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:43,840 Speaker 1: and I'm not going to have it as I'm going 454 00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:47,760 Speaker 1: through TSA. I can hope that. But yeah, okay, do 455 00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:50,640 Speaker 1: you know that? Did you know? I actually frisked myself 456 00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:55,000 Speaker 1: every time I go to the airport. Now I've heard 457 00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:57,400 Speaker 1: and it's not that I walk around with loose ammunition 458 00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:00,520 Speaker 1: in my pocket. I always have this. It called me paranoid. 459 00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:03,120 Speaker 1: Always have this this fear that somebody has slipped something 460 00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:05,800 Speaker 1: into my pocket and I'm gonna get thrown against a 461 00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:09,280 Speaker 1: wall or something. I always frisk myself. People might think 462 00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:11,720 Speaker 1: I'm absolutely insane before I go through t s. 463 00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:17,600 Speaker 2: At see what we got here, I'm caring Stark. 464 00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:20,920 Speaker 1: And I'm such a Looney Tunes and absent minded. Many 465 00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:23,320 Speaker 1: times I forget, you know that I've got something, you know, 466 00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:26,120 Speaker 1: like coins in my pocket and all kinds of things 467 00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:26,480 Speaker 1: like that. 468 00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:30,000 Speaker 2: Plus you get bagger and somebody packet for you. 469 00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:36,720 Speaker 1: Yeah that's true. Uh yeah, So but you know the 470 00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:40,280 Speaker 1: nine millimeter and people are very familiar with that round 471 00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:44,760 Speaker 1: is that's obviously measured on the metric scale. Okay, so 472 00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:50,040 Speaker 1: when you hear point three eight, that's the British what 473 00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:53,920 Speaker 1: they refer to as as the British numbering system, and 474 00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:56,680 Speaker 1: it's a it's a system that we've used and it's 475 00:30:56,920 --> 00:31:01,520 Speaker 1: based on standardized measurements. Uh you think about inches. Okay, 476 00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:06,440 Speaker 1: so as opposed to metric, you have the British measurement 477 00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:10,280 Speaker 1: system and we kind of exchange these back and forth. 478 00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:13,320 Speaker 1: But I guess the nine mill I guess the nine 479 00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:17,720 Speaker 1: millimeter is probably about as close to a point three 480 00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:20,120 Speaker 1: to eight as you can get. Of course, you jump 481 00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:25,640 Speaker 1: up to a point four zero caliber, which obviously is 482 00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:29,920 Speaker 1: two ticks bigger than the thirty eight, but the nine 483 00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:34,360 Speaker 1: is generally a bit closer, a bit closer to a 484 00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:39,800 Speaker 1: thirty eight. When a bullet actually hammers into a body, 485 00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:44,760 Speaker 1: and I say bullet, I need to chastise myself for that, 486 00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:48,760 Speaker 1: because bullets don't slam into bodies. Projectiles do. The bullet 487 00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:51,959 Speaker 1: is the intact cartridge that still has it's on fired. 488 00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:56,000 Speaker 1: So once you send that round down range and the 489 00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:59,800 Speaker 1: projectile slams into the body, well depended upon the makeup 490 00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:02,720 Speaker 1: in this case with this is actually this nine milimeter 491 00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:04,480 Speaker 1: I'm showing, he's actually a Holow point. This is a 492 00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:11,640 Speaker 1: hydra shock. It mushrooms and expands. So with an expanding 493 00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:16,760 Speaker 1: projectile like this, it'll jump from say if it's technically 494 00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:19,360 Speaker 1: it's supposed to do this, they don't always work. But 495 00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:23,440 Speaker 1: when it deploys the little wings, the circumference doubles at 496 00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:26,240 Speaker 1: that point in top. Okay, so you might go from 497 00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:30,000 Speaker 1: a nine millimeter up to something that's roughly fifteen millimeters 498 00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:34,600 Speaker 1: in circumference. So you're throwing that into the body. It's 499 00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:37,080 Speaker 1: supposed to expand and tear it more tissue and it 500 00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:43,920 Speaker 1: stays in the body with a thirty eight point three eight, 501 00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:47,680 Speaker 1: and that's slamming into the body. Well, you can have holowpoint. 502 00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:51,760 Speaker 1: You can have holowpoint rounds with thirty eight, certainly with 503 00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:55,840 Speaker 1: point three eight zero and which is a semi automatic 504 00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:59,360 Speaker 1: round thirty eight special as a revolver. It turns out, Dave, 505 00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:05,920 Speaker 1: that they're looking at zero point three eight zero auto, 506 00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:10,680 Speaker 1: which means that when they get this projectile out of 507 00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:16,200 Speaker 1: the body, they're going to try to compare it to 508 00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:19,760 Speaker 1: other things that they might find around it. Interestingly enough, 509 00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:24,360 Speaker 1: my understanding is that in the Fairis' case, they did 510 00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:26,480 Speaker 1: find another round and it was laying on the basement 511 00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:30,200 Speaker 1: floor in the house adjacent to blood. 512 00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:38,360 Speaker 2: Which is why there's a question of where was where 513 00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:42,000 Speaker 2: was he killed? Because the belief is that he wasn't 514 00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:44,600 Speaker 2: shot right there at the burn pile, that he was 515 00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:48,480 Speaker 2: shot elsewhere and then brought to the burn pile. It's 516 00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:52,760 Speaker 2: the blood and the bullet. Well, they weren't able to 517 00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:56,440 Speaker 2: go much further than that, Joe, and something right, yes. 518 00:33:56,320 --> 00:33:59,080 Speaker 1: Let me say something right here. This is one thing 519 00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:01,840 Speaker 1: that I can't get past and this is the medical 520 00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:04,880 Speaker 1: emergency aspect of this. They thought that he had a 521 00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:09,480 Speaker 1: medical emergency, and medical emergency generally would mean, I think 522 00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:12,400 Speaker 1: one of two things. Either you've had a stroke or 523 00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:18,279 Speaker 1: you've had an m I an infarction myocardial infarction, which is, 524 00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:28,879 Speaker 1: you know, fancy term for common vernacular's heart attack when 525 00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:30,680 Speaker 1: you look at the burn pile, and I think it 526 00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:37,160 Speaker 1: was actually his son that found him on the burn pile. Okay, 527 00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:40,640 Speaker 1: so is there any evidence out there of a starter, 528 00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:50,520 Speaker 1: gas cans, matches, lighters, anything out there, Because if Gary 529 00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:55,120 Speaker 1: Ferris is out there and he's burning debris on his 530 00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:57,759 Speaker 1: burn pile, it would stand a reason that as an 531 00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:01,640 Speaker 1: adjunct to this, you know, to this, he would have 532 00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:06,319 Speaker 1: starter that was out there where his fingerprints on any 533 00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:08,600 Speaker 1: of the starter. If you did have a gas can 534 00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:11,359 Speaker 1: or whatever it is that you're trying to ignite this 535 00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:14,400 Speaker 1: thing with, because this is a really hot fire, this 536 00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:16,560 Speaker 1: would have and they would have known this. The investigators 537 00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:20,400 Speaker 1: would have known this fire. And my suspicion is that 538 00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:24,279 Speaker 1: not only did they have regular investigators out there, Dave, 539 00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:26,479 Speaker 1: they're going to have arson investigators. And by the way, 540 00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:30,360 Speaker 1: one of the biggest neglected areas of getting respect in 541 00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:35,400 Speaker 1: forensics are arson investigators. They're probably the most forensic of 542 00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:38,320 Speaker 1: any forensic that's out there, and people don't talk about 543 00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:41,200 Speaker 1: them a lot because they're miracle workers. As far as 544 00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:44,440 Speaker 1: I'm concerned, I worked a lot of fire desks and 545 00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:49,680 Speaker 1: over the course of my career, and it all looks 546 00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:54,200 Speaker 1: like a big pile of black mashed potatoes when I'm 547 00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:56,799 Speaker 1: out there. But for them, they can look at a 548 00:35:56,840 --> 00:36:00,680 Speaker 1: scene like that, that's not what they're seeing, see things 549 00:36:00,719 --> 00:36:03,799 Speaker 1: that I can never see because I don't have that 550 00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:07,120 Speaker 1: level of training in fire related deaths or arsons and 551 00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:09,319 Speaker 1: that sort of thing. They would have been out there 552 00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:11,279 Speaker 1: to take a look. They would have talked about how 553 00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:14,840 Speaker 1: deep the fire went, imagine that they can actually measure 554 00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:20,719 Speaker 1: the depth out there, How what remnants were out there 555 00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:27,000 Speaker 1: that might be associated with any kind of ignition that 556 00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:30,200 Speaker 1: may have started the fire. They would have assessed all that. 557 00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:34,280 Speaker 1: They would have taken samples dave out there to check 558 00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:39,279 Speaker 1: for accelerant, okay, like anything that was associated if you'd 559 00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:43,080 Speaker 1: poured gas on it or you know, lighter fluid or 560 00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:45,359 Speaker 1: whatever it is. They would have attempted to assess it 561 00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:47,880 Speaker 1: from that perspective. So anyway, I had to give a 562 00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:50,360 Speaker 1: shout out to the arson people because they're going to 563 00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:52,359 Speaker 1: be involved in a case like this, so you've got 564 00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:57,600 Speaker 1: multiple eyes on this case. And then to try to understand, well, 565 00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:03,319 Speaker 1: if you're having a medical emergency, you're telling me that 566 00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:06,080 Speaker 1: this guy has a heart attack and falls over into 567 00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:10,000 Speaker 1: a blazing fire, right and the heart attack facilitated him 568 00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:15,040 Speaker 1: dropping dead and just going, I mean, graveyard dead, right 569 00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:18,840 Speaker 1: into the fire, no reaction to it whatsoever. People have 570 00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:21,600 Speaker 1: heart attacks every day, but that doesn't mean that they're 571 00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:22,880 Speaker 1: not responded to pain. 572 00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:25,880 Speaker 2: They're not all widow makers. They don't talk them out right, then. 573 00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:30,759 Speaker 1: No, they're not. And even with strokes, and I know 574 00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:33,680 Speaker 1: that there are exceptions, but there's no effort to move 575 00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:37,200 Speaker 1: off the fire, right, you know, he's just there. So 576 00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:39,640 Speaker 1: I've got a lot of questions relative to that. 577 00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:41,560 Speaker 2: The thing is, Joe is a lot of those questions 578 00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:44,040 Speaker 2: are still not answered now when looking at the fire. 579 00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:45,880 Speaker 2: Here's what I was trying to figure out, because you 580 00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:50,400 Speaker 2: have taught me so many things about death fires and 581 00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:52,640 Speaker 2: things like that, and the one thing that came to 582 00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:55,800 Speaker 2: my mind, Okay, his body is on the burn pile. 583 00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:59,719 Speaker 2: First of all, how long would it take and I'm 584 00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:01,920 Speaker 2: out door fire pit, how long would it take to 585 00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:05,400 Speaker 2: render down that body? And how often would that fire 586 00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:06,280 Speaker 2: have to be stoked? 587 00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:12,560 Speaker 1: Joe, Yeah, it's bonfires even to a certain degree, well 588 00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:17,160 Speaker 1: to a great degree, probably lesser, but even fireplace fires 589 00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:22,440 Speaker 1: are one of the most inefficient heat sources there are 590 00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:29,360 Speaker 1: because you're constantly losing that radiating heat. Okay outdoor, Yeah, 591 00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:32,280 Speaker 1: it is outdoor, so you're bleeding off heat all the while. 592 00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:36,960 Speaker 1: And it's you're not going back to physical science class here. 593 00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:42,200 Speaker 1: You're not making you're not making the best use of 594 00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:49,320 Speaker 1: the unrestricted chemical chain reaction. That's that's literally occurring before 595 00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:58,960 Speaker 1: you heat source, vaporization, sustainability and fueling and retaining that energy. 596 00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:01,280 Speaker 2: Well, the one thing that was noticed in the police 597 00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:07,839 Speaker 2: report the overwhelming smell of centronell. I had to look 598 00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:15,880 Speaker 2: it up because centronella is actually something in mosquito repellent, yes, 599 00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:20,520 Speaker 2: and it is also used in those fire logs that 600 00:39:20,600 --> 00:39:23,760 Speaker 2: we use to put on the fire to burn hotter 601 00:39:24,520 --> 00:39:28,000 Speaker 2: longer without tending to them. And that was there was 602 00:39:28,040 --> 00:39:31,839 Speaker 2: an overwhelming smell of centronella at the burn pit. 603 00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:34,440 Speaker 1: And you also keep those we don't have a pool. 604 00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:37,880 Speaker 1: You know, I know, you know people that have a pool. 605 00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:41,520 Speaker 1: But you know you've got the big citronella candles that 606 00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:43,560 Speaker 1: are that are out there that people will put all 607 00:39:43,560 --> 00:39:46,680 Speaker 1: around we have and you've got the torches. Got to 608 00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:47,600 Speaker 1: pour that stuff in. 609 00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:50,040 Speaker 2: I've got because we do have a big pool. I've 610 00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:50,759 Speaker 2: got those things. 611 00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:54,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, And so you smell that it's a citrusy smell 612 00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:57,560 Speaker 1: that has But it's a petroleum based product. Here's the thing. 613 00:39:57,680 --> 00:40:00,359 Speaker 1: It burns at a lower temperature. This is this is 614 00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:03,440 Speaker 1: really interesting. It actually burns at a lower temperature than say, 615 00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:11,279 Speaker 1: if you were using gas like gasoline. However, however, when 616 00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:14,360 Speaker 1: you burn with gasoline. If anybody has ever seen someone 617 00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:16,319 Speaker 1: you can see the videos all over the place, Please 618 00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:19,040 Speaker 1: do don't do this at home. If you ever see 619 00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:21,240 Speaker 1: anybody have a fire outside and they take a cup 620 00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:25,480 Speaker 1: of gasoline, don't do it. Don't do it. Pitch it 621 00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:27,960 Speaker 1: on the fire. What does it do? Well? People will 622 00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:32,480 Speaker 1: say it blows, it's not really exploding as much as 623 00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:36,279 Speaker 1: it is flashing over And what is the heat source doing? Well, 624 00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:39,200 Speaker 1: it's consuming all of that. Now for a time, it 625 00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:42,880 Speaker 1: will burn, but it's not sustainable. It's great to start 626 00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:45,319 Speaker 1: a fire with. But when you start to get into 627 00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:52,120 Speaker 1: something like citronella, and it's it's kind of a greasy, 628 00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:58,160 Speaker 1: a greasy substance. It's got a it will sustain for 629 00:40:58,239 --> 00:41:01,960 Speaker 1: a longer period of time. The heat will be lower, 630 00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:06,960 Speaker 1: but it will last longer. Okay, it'll burn longer. That's 631 00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:10,160 Speaker 1: why it's in candles for instance, you know, or in 632 00:41:10,239 --> 00:41:13,120 Speaker 1: these torches that we have out by. Can you imagine 633 00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:14,640 Speaker 1: if you had one of those torches and you put 634 00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:17,600 Speaker 1: unleaded gas in there and lit that thing. You talk 635 00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:22,800 Speaker 1: about an explosion within a canister. This repellent actually burns 636 00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:26,240 Speaker 1: at a lower temp, but it's sustainable, so you could 637 00:41:26,680 --> 00:41:32,560 Speaker 1: douse an object, even a body, with the stuff, set 638 00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:37,320 Speaker 1: it a blaze. And this is kind of interesting. I 639 00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:40,080 Speaker 1: didn't think about this, Dave, until you mentioned it. The 640 00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:45,520 Speaker 1: smell well bodies And for those of you that have 641 00:41:45,640 --> 00:41:48,239 Speaker 1: never smelled a body that's burning, I'll go ahead and 642 00:41:48,239 --> 00:41:55,200 Speaker 1: tell you what it smells like. Smells like barbecue. Yeah, 643 00:41:55,480 --> 00:41:58,520 Speaker 1: smells like a barbecue. Dave's raising his eyebrows right now, 644 00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:05,040 Speaker 1: but that's it. It smells a lot like a pork barbecue. Now, 645 00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:08,480 Speaker 1: if you particularly, if you have a body that is unclothed. 646 00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:11,759 Speaker 1: It smells just like any other tissue burning. I take 647 00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:14,000 Speaker 1: exception to people that say, yeah, I smelled a body 648 00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:20,680 Speaker 1: that was burning one time, and it is it's the 649 00:42:20,719 --> 00:42:25,319 Speaker 1: most unforgettable smell that you've ever smelled. Well, probably you 650 00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:27,600 Speaker 1: created that in your mind where you knew that it 651 00:42:27,640 --> 00:42:30,719 Speaker 1: was a human burning, and so automatically you said, well, 652 00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:34,560 Speaker 1: it smells unlike anything else. Not to me, it doesn't. 653 00:42:34,719 --> 00:42:38,160 Speaker 1: When I'm around bodies, I can't distinguish the difference between 654 00:42:39,560 --> 00:42:44,760 Speaker 1: between say, pork ribs that might be cooking on a grill, 655 00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:49,440 Speaker 1: when compared to human that is burning. The hair smells bad, 656 00:42:50,040 --> 00:42:54,719 Speaker 1: you know, clothing will smell bad. It's all offensive. It's 657 00:42:54,840 --> 00:42:59,480 Speaker 1: just thinking about it. So But isn't it interesting though 658 00:42:59,560 --> 00:43:03,080 Speaker 1: that if your thought, if you're a perpetrator, your thought is, well, 659 00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:07,160 Speaker 1: if I use gas, that might not mask the smell. 660 00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:12,760 Speaker 1: But I've been using the citronella candles for a while 661 00:43:12,840 --> 00:43:16,480 Speaker 1: and they are very distinctive and they're flammable. Well, the 662 00:43:16,520 --> 00:43:21,040 Speaker 1: liquid is flammable, I doubt something into stuff. Who's going 663 00:43:21,080 --> 00:43:25,040 Speaker 1: to be to tell the difference is somebody getting rid 664 00:43:25,080 --> 00:43:29,399 Speaker 1: of the skeeters around their property or somebody getting rid 665 00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:35,640 Speaker 1: of their spouse, Melody Ferris, has been found guilty. She 666 00:43:36,239 --> 00:43:40,320 Speaker 1: is looking probably at the rest of her life in prison. 667 00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:46,880 Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body bags.