WEBVTT - The War on Trans People: Part 3, The TERF International 0:00:05.000 --> 0:00:07.400 Welcome to It had Happen Here? A podcast that this 0:00:07.440 --> 0:00:10.480 week is about the war on trans people. I'm your host, 0:00:10.560 --> 0:00:14.720 Christopher Wong. If you've been around the left long enough, 0:00:14.800 --> 0:00:19.200 you've probably heard people called transisclusionary, radical feminism or turf 0:00:19.360 --> 0:00:24.120 is m a colonial ideology. Broadly, the accusation of colonialism 0:00:24.160 --> 0:00:26.680 is about the erasure of non Western genders to fall 0:00:26.720 --> 0:00:30.639 outside the Christian gender binary. But turfs or colonial in 0:00:30.640 --> 0:00:34.080 another sense as well, exported by white academics to a 0:00:34.159 --> 0:00:38.000 network of fall feminist and anti trafficking groups, the ideology 0:00:38.040 --> 0:00:40.680 has imposed itself on the global South, with devastating and 0:00:40.760 --> 0:00:45.280 violent consequences. As a product of this colonial imposition, Mexico 0:00:45.360 --> 0:00:47.080 has become one of the front lines in the war 0:00:47.120 --> 0:00:51.280 against trans people. I spoke to Emmy Flores and Juliana Newhauser, 0:00:51.520 --> 0:00:54.720 two members of the Sexual and Gender Dissidence Resistance Network, 0:00:55.320 --> 0:00:57.720 a group of activists aligned with the Zapatistas who have 0:00:57.760 --> 0:00:59.880 been documenting and resisting the spread of turfs and me 0:01:00.040 --> 0:01:04.440 to go when the new Turf Wave started in Mexico 0:01:05.240 --> 0:01:11.080 several years back. Um At the time, I thought I 0:01:11.120 --> 0:01:13.760 thought of it as something that like a radicalization that 0:01:13.800 --> 0:01:16.679 went too farn you know, like kind of like thinking 0:01:16.680 --> 0:01:19.920 back to the New Left, and there was a point 0:01:20.920 --> 0:01:26.200 during the New Left when like suddenly everybody joined a 0:01:26.280 --> 0:01:32.720 Baoist cult and they were angry for the right reasons, 0:01:32.760 --> 0:01:37.959 but it just went off. At some point, I thought 0:01:37.959 --> 0:01:41.919 that's what was going on in Mexico. But then slowly 0:01:41.959 --> 0:01:44.000 it started to come out more that more and more 0:01:44.720 --> 0:01:48.720 turf groups were had to tie us to political parties 0:01:50.440 --> 0:01:53.560 and one of them and foreign agents. And one of 0:01:53.600 --> 0:01:58.200 the one of the most dramatic cases, UM is from 0:01:58.240 --> 0:02:06.280 Toluca Sitty near Mexico City. UM just recently at the 0:02:06.360 --> 0:02:09.359 International Women's State protests, like there were turf groups that 0:02:10.120 --> 0:02:14.679 had made a pinata out of the trans flag, had 0:02:14.680 --> 0:02:18.480 been burning the trans flag. Also in this same city, 0:02:18.800 --> 0:02:22.040 one of the main turf groups turns out that their 0:02:22.160 --> 0:02:26.799 leader is on government payroll. And if you've seen Roma, 0:02:26.919 --> 0:02:30.760 for example, the incident, the political incident that happens in 0:02:30.760 --> 0:02:34.760 that movie based on real incident from the seventies, and 0:02:35.160 --> 0:02:37.800 the tactics of that political party, which is the party 0:02:37.800 --> 0:02:41.280 that controls the state government of the state to Lucas 0:02:41.360 --> 0:02:45.200 in basically it hasn't changed and they seem to have 0:02:45.400 --> 0:02:50.120 been using these turfs basically as shock troops. At one 0:02:50.160 --> 0:02:53.680 point there were two sit ins outside the state Congress, 0:02:54.400 --> 0:02:57.040 one to push for a gender identity a law and 0:02:57.120 --> 0:02:59.400 another to push for the igaliciation of abortion, which are 0:02:59.600 --> 0:03:04.800 obviously both important things. The ladder, however, was controlled by 0:03:04.840 --> 0:03:09.960 these turf groups, who later mysteriously never seems to appear 0:03:10.080 --> 0:03:14.160 at other protests asking for the legalization of abortion. But 0:03:14.200 --> 0:03:17.640 they were there and they ran off the trans encampment. 0:03:18.160 --> 0:03:22.120 One of them big incidents was defending the sanctity if 0:03:22.120 --> 0:03:26.480 the women's bathroom with barbed wire wrapped baseball bats Jesus. 0:03:27.160 --> 0:03:30.520 These groups have deep ties to right wing Mexican political parties, 0:03:30.639 --> 0:03:33.400 the police, and the growing Turf international, and they seem 0:03:33.480 --> 0:03:38.000 to be very chummy with the local police. Their leader 0:03:38.360 --> 0:03:45.160 um gives classes, it gives like trainings to the state 0:03:45.200 --> 0:03:51.040 government like that. It's it's not subtle, you know. You 0:03:51.040 --> 0:03:53.960 can see live strings of the quote unquote protests, and 0:03:53.960 --> 0:03:57.920 he was mostly them like drinking coffee with the cops, 0:03:57.920 --> 0:04:01.600 like they were on firstly vasis with the cops, while 0:04:01.720 --> 0:04:05.720 the the other camp had like translimin the world were 0:04:05.720 --> 0:04:08.160 too scared to go to the bathroom because they were 0:04:08.200 --> 0:04:13.440 going to be attacked, and so that's the starkest group 0:04:13.520 --> 0:04:17.719 I think, right, the delicators, which are Yeah, it's funny 0:04:17.720 --> 0:04:21.359 because almost every party has their own the wrong group. 0:04:21.520 --> 0:04:24.200 But yeah, also it's not surprised that p r I 0:04:24.320 --> 0:04:27.839 is the scariest. Yeah. We should also say that these 0:04:27.839 --> 0:04:33.640 groups are affiliates with Jila Jeffreys Women's Speculation International Um. 0:04:33.800 --> 0:04:37.360 And so this is also a case of an ideology 0:04:37.640 --> 0:04:42.119 developed in the First World, in this case England, which 0:04:42.160 --> 0:04:46.640 is largely a safe country where even as fascist and 0:04:46.760 --> 0:04:50.400 ideology as turfism doesn't or only very rarely leads to 0:04:51.279 --> 0:04:56.400 real violence, and but it gets exported the countries that 0:04:56.440 --> 0:04:58.919 are not safe where it does turn into real violence. 0:04:59.800 --> 0:05:05.039 So another affiliate UM of Sheila Jefferies Human's Decoration in 0:05:05.080 --> 0:05:09.599 Mexico would be Las Bruces Delmar, who is another case 0:05:09.720 --> 0:05:15.200 of At first they seemed to be a group that 0:05:15.320 --> 0:05:19.360 was just they just radicalized a bit too far. Then 0:05:19.440 --> 0:05:21.800 photos came out of their leader who is on the 0:05:21.839 --> 0:05:25.880 time one hundred a couple of years back with Felipe Calderon, 0:05:26.720 --> 0:05:29.280 an ex president of Mexico and like by far one 0:05:29.279 --> 0:05:32.800 of the worst in the country's history, and not like 0:05:33.720 --> 0:05:36.880 like just oh, I saw you walking in the street. 0:05:36.960 --> 0:05:39.960 She was at a book signing. It was not a 0:05:39.960 --> 0:05:43.840 casual encounter. It was a clear sign of admiration in 0:05:43.880 --> 0:05:48.680 the It's been more than confirmed since then that her 0:05:49.120 --> 0:05:55.520 political ambitions lie with the p AN, the the farthest 0:05:55.640 --> 0:06:00.840 right mainstream political party in n School. This political alliance 0:06:00.880 --> 0:06:03.719 between the Turfs and the right has benefits for both sides. 0:06:04.279 --> 0:06:07.560 The Turf's gained funding institutional backing for their war against 0:06:07.600 --> 0:06:10.360 trans people. The right gained a way to attack the 0:06:10.440 --> 0:06:14.600 vaguely center left Mexican President Andrea's Manuel Lopez Obrador by 0:06:14.600 --> 0:06:18.880 blaming him and trans people from Mexico's horrific wave of femicides, 0:06:18.920 --> 0:06:22.600 while distracting from its actual sources NAFTA and the War 0:06:22.680 --> 0:06:26.800 on drugs. Mexico's trans population, however, gained a new Western 0:06:26.960 --> 0:06:30.240 educated threat. When I say the radical feminism was a 0:06:30.279 --> 0:06:35.039 complete import it's from its very beginning in the For 0:06:35.080 --> 0:06:37.760 a long while, there was like one Turf in Mexico 0:06:38.400 --> 0:06:42.800 and she was She's called gian Maria. Yo, don't even 0:06:42.839 --> 0:06:45.040 try to pronounce her name. I don't think she can 0:06:45.080 --> 0:06:47.440 even pronounce her name because she's white ass hill and 0:06:47.920 --> 0:06:51.040 she's always dresses like she's a fucking Rachel dollars Hill 0:06:51.080 --> 0:06:58.599 from Mexico's irony that the first originary in Mexico is 0:06:58.720 --> 0:07:02.919 also the Mexican Rachel, right, because she went abroad and 0:07:03.080 --> 0:07:05.800 was like the only Mexican everyone knew. So even though 0:07:05.839 --> 0:07:09.159 she's white a cell and has blue eyes, she started 0:07:09.160 --> 0:07:13.400 wearing some Coachella motherfucking as uh feathers and ship right, 0:07:14.760 --> 0:07:17.800 I've seen I've seen these pictures. It's it is, it 0:07:17.960 --> 0:07:22.560 is like it is. It is the Mexican version of 0:07:22.680 --> 0:07:25.440 and not even just the it is the Mexican version 0:07:25.480 --> 0:07:28.600 of those people like Coachella who like wear indigenous head dresses, 0:07:28.960 --> 0:07:31.720 who are just like just like look look like they're 0:07:31.720 --> 0:07:38.360 descended from like hydroc Hembler or something. And like she's 0:07:38.480 --> 0:07:42.520 she has like she has like half French, half Spanish 0:07:42.640 --> 0:07:45.160 name and she changed it to a half maya half 0:07:45.280 --> 0:07:48.760 novel name. It's gross. So this this person has been 0:07:48.800 --> 0:07:52.040 actives in the seventies, right, she went to she was 0:07:52.120 --> 0:07:55.880 present in the first Pride in Mexico, and uh she 0:07:55.960 --> 0:07:59.600 who that was? That was also the two year anniversary 0:07:59.680 --> 0:08:05.640 of the massacre, So Pride was from the start really 0:08:05.760 --> 0:08:08.760 leftist here in Mexico, but it also had these kind 0:08:08.760 --> 0:08:14.400 of people, the who who went to the UK, friends 0:08:14.440 --> 0:08:19.840 and the United States. And I think she was there 0:08:20.040 --> 0:08:26.520 when Jennie Raymond was like sending her friends with guns 0:08:26.560 --> 0:08:33.040 to to UH threatened trans women, right, So that's she 0:08:33.040 --> 0:08:37.800 she She was there when the turf Wars were at 0:08:37.080 --> 0:08:41.480 the highest point during the seventies and then came back 0:08:42.200 --> 0:08:46.840 and parton. She participating in a lot of history of 0:08:46.880 --> 0:08:51.720 Mexican feminism. But the time that she came back in 0:08:51.760 --> 0:08:55.520 two thousand sixteen with that letter, with that backing, because 0:08:56.200 --> 0:08:59.920 she is also close to Jennie Raymond with the qualities 0:09:00.000 --> 0:09:06.960 again against Trafficking in Women who the Coalition against Trafficking, 0:09:07.360 --> 0:09:11.440 the Coalition against Trafficking in Women cat W has a 0:09:11.440 --> 0:09:18.120 lot of After the Turf Wars, they went underground in 0:09:18.160 --> 0:09:20.760 the in academia and the universities, right because they were 0:09:20.760 --> 0:09:24.480 no longer accepted, but they were in the process of 0:09:24.520 --> 0:09:30.480 building and geos that could globally affect policy on UH, 0:09:30.480 --> 0:09:34.079 specifically sex work and trans rights. And you can tell 0:09:34.600 --> 0:09:37.959 that gian Maria saw that that was her only opportunity 0:09:38.000 --> 0:09:42.439 to resurface UH and to make her seventies as UH 0:09:42.559 --> 0:09:46.199 she saw that seventies rat fan discourse was ret right now, 0:09:46.600 --> 0:09:50.240 and so she became like this uh found found in 0:09:50.280 --> 0:09:55.040 matriarch for the new generation of transfers, one of them 0:09:55.240 --> 0:09:57.720 which is a lot of Luana who is part of 0:09:58.200 --> 0:10:03.680 FEMBA and the Gean media and Lekuana. We're not faced 0:10:03.720 --> 0:10:08.439 at all by the accusations of aligned with the reactionaries 0:10:08.440 --> 0:10:11.240 because they know their history, they know where they come from, 0:10:11.280 --> 0:10:14.360 and they know that this is how Dorkin survived, this 0:10:14.440 --> 0:10:20.640 is how uh how Sheila Jefferies and Jennie Raymond survived. 0:10:20.679 --> 0:10:24.280 This is where you get the fucking money. And later 0:10:24.520 --> 0:10:29.440 Quana gehn Maria and turned the whole environment around them 0:10:29.559 --> 0:10:35.040 into these uh well, these surf questions. The only two 0:10:35.040 --> 0:10:41.120 issues that we talked about nowadays in Mexican feminism are 0:10:41.120 --> 0:10:46.440 our president and trans people. It's kind of gross Jesus, 0:10:47.720 --> 0:10:52.280 and that like remember, like there's only a handful of 0:10:52.320 --> 0:10:56.600 states that have legalized deportion. There's femicides happening all the time, 0:10:57.280 --> 0:11:03.840 and but we're we continued to debate these two issues 0:11:04.080 --> 0:11:06.400 over and over and over again like a feedback group, 0:11:06.920 --> 0:11:10.040 and like, as trans people, we don't have any choice 0:11:10.120 --> 0:11:13.959 because we're the targets of this right, and it's not 0:11:14.600 --> 0:11:18.480 it's not an academic debate. Last fall, um there was 0:11:19.760 --> 0:11:24.720 some Turfs who had taken over a public park to 0:11:24.920 --> 0:11:28.559 set up their separatist space, and there was a disabled 0:11:28.920 --> 0:11:33.720 CIS woman and her trans girlfriend who are denied entry 0:11:33.800 --> 0:11:38.880 at the park and threatened with tasers. And so when 0:11:38.880 --> 0:11:44.720 they're taking over these public spaces and using violence to 0:11:44.720 --> 0:11:46.960 defend them, because the next week there is a protest 0:11:47.480 --> 0:11:51.520 over this and they there is a they taste to 0:11:51.600 --> 0:11:56.480 transpan and it's like, this is like a public park, like, 0:11:56.840 --> 0:12:09.400 of course we have to defend ourselves. M The Coalition 0:12:09.440 --> 0:12:14.360 against Trafficking and Women or cat W, an international anti 0:12:14.440 --> 0:12:17.720 sex worker group which provided a refuge for white turfs 0:12:17.760 --> 0:12:21.040 driven from mainstream feminism in their home countries, has been 0:12:21.040 --> 0:12:24.240 a major source of Turfy influence in Latin America. The 0:12:24.320 --> 0:12:27.880 reason there is so much important of this ideology towards 0:12:28.400 --> 0:12:32.199 radical feminists in Mexico, Uh, it's that they needed something 0:12:32.200 --> 0:12:36.199 to say and something to do and something to feel 0:12:36.240 --> 0:12:41.720 the void uh in organizing and n geos and the 0:12:41.800 --> 0:12:46.600 people who stepped up where Jenny's Raymond's cat W right, 0:12:46.960 --> 0:12:51.080 the Coalition Against African in women who since the noneidies, 0:12:51.600 --> 0:12:57.800 UH spent UH a decade and a half building contexts 0:12:57.880 --> 0:13:01.600 in the in the u N, in the O S 0:13:02.120 --> 0:13:07.040 in several international organisms to extend their influence across the 0:13:07.040 --> 0:13:11.320 whole continent, specifically in Latin America and UH you can 0:13:11.360 --> 0:13:15.320 see this affecting stuff like stuff like Venezuela where they 0:13:16.080 --> 0:13:21.920 broke up sex worker unions too two with the the 0:13:21.960 --> 0:13:25.480 O A S right and in Mexico, the founding leader 0:13:25.520 --> 0:13:30.000 of the Mexican branch of of cad W, Teresa used 0:13:30.040 --> 0:13:35.520 to be a un employee, specifically it's drug and crime segment, 0:13:36.200 --> 0:13:39.480 and before she was like a radical feminist. She used 0:13:39.480 --> 0:13:45.960 to conduct drug rades in Chapa's and yeah, and after 0:13:46.080 --> 0:13:49.680 that she became UH the founding member of cad W 0:13:49.920 --> 0:13:55.000 Latin America and the Caribbean. And with Janice Raymond, they 0:13:55.640 --> 0:14:00.320 you can see them go together to the Beijing Conference 0:14:00.360 --> 0:14:05.000 on Women and they influenced like those they they were 0:14:05.040 --> 0:14:07.440 a big part of why gender is not recognized as 0:14:07.440 --> 0:14:10.480 a social construct by the u N. They allied with 0:14:10.520 --> 0:14:14.160 the Holy See, with the representative from the Vatican in 0:14:14.160 --> 0:14:17.280 the u N, got together with a couple of radical 0:14:17.320 --> 0:14:20.320 feminists and pushed back against gender being recognized as a 0:14:20.360 --> 0:14:26.640 social construct in so that's the level of influence these 0:14:26.640 --> 0:14:31.520 groups have in Mexico. UH, these groups which morphed into 0:14:31.560 --> 0:14:36.920 the c w UH supported the war and drugs from 0:14:36.920 --> 0:14:42.320 the get go. They were very high in some of 0:14:42.360 --> 0:14:45.760 the biggest events in now curating the war and drugs. 0:14:46.040 --> 0:14:50.040 They were present right there, because if you're fighting drug trafficking, 0:14:51.280 --> 0:14:54.600 it's very easy to just sleep the word human right there. Right, 0:14:55.000 --> 0:14:58.600 No politicians gonna say no. They all fucking love to say, yeah, 0:14:58.800 --> 0:15:02.840 I'm hard on on human trafficking. And the way that 0:15:03.520 --> 0:15:07.760 UH showed itself A was just targeting trans sex workers 0:15:07.800 --> 0:15:12.320 and migrant sex workers. And with that and that feeding 0:15:12.360 --> 0:15:16.840 the agenda of Jenny's Raymond perfectly. Sheila Jeffries Gotta basically 0:15:16.920 --> 0:15:21.840 survived the whole two thousands on writing garbage for reports 0:15:21.840 --> 0:15:25.680 for the u N. Most of her published works during 0:15:25.680 --> 0:15:30.360 the two thousands and early twenty tents. It's stuff paid 0:15:30.400 --> 0:15:39.400 for cattle, and they they they In two thousands sixteen, 0:15:39.720 --> 0:15:43.400 they started pushing for more and more anti trans legislation 0:15:43.520 --> 0:15:45.880 worldwide because they could see the writing on the world right. 0:15:46.520 --> 0:15:52.880 They were behind the Women's Declaration, the Sheila Jeffries is 0:15:52.920 --> 0:15:56.480 not okay, she is part of catally, she's I think 0:15:56.760 --> 0:16:00.000 card W Australia. She has her own all other coltics, 0:16:00.000 --> 0:16:03.240 all Space International, which is behind Foster system by the way, 0:16:03.440 --> 0:16:06.600 in the US, where she allied with a couple of 0:16:06.720 --> 0:16:12.600 conservative sheriffs to write the legislation so we could go 0:16:12.760 --> 0:16:17.160 on and on on. How like people that read that 0:16:17.240 --> 0:16:21.600 our transitions think are gone and forgotten by history. Right, 0:16:21.680 --> 0:16:24.160 the the authors of these horrible books that haunt us 0:16:24.160 --> 0:16:27.800 to this day are still active, and not just in 0:16:27.840 --> 0:16:31.240 the US. They're active in Mexico, in the UK, in France, 0:16:31.520 --> 0:16:38.320 in South Africa, in Korea. Korea is huge in I 0:16:38.360 --> 0:16:41.160 think I would say Korea is as has as big 0:16:41.160 --> 0:16:44.040 a problem as Mexico and the UK. We just don't 0:16:44.960 --> 0:16:46.880 talk to them as much and we can't realize that. 0:16:47.480 --> 0:16:51.000 But if you check them the languages that have signed 0:16:51.120 --> 0:16:54.560 the Shila Jefferis Declaration against trans People, which is a 0:16:54.640 --> 0:16:58.480 specifically general sidal, the Coloration Declaration. It doesn't stop at 0:16:58.520 --> 0:17:03.320 like legislation. It wants to exterminators out right. Yeah, and 0:17:03.480 --> 0:17:05.480 most of them. You were gonna see a lot of 0:17:05.520 --> 0:17:07.720 Brazilian flags, a lot of Mexican flax, a lot of 0:17:07.760 --> 0:17:12.520 Korean flags, even more than the United States flags. And 0:17:12.560 --> 0:17:16.919 if you track the USA flags, it's mostly like weird 0:17:17.160 --> 0:17:20.879 randalls that have yoga classes and ship it's not relevant politicians. 0:17:21.200 --> 0:17:23.520 But if you track the other countries, you're gonna find 0:17:23.640 --> 0:17:26.159 some of the biggest collectives in the in their own countries. 0:17:26.160 --> 0:17:29.680 You're gonna find or just spooks. Right, You're gonna find 0:17:29.680 --> 0:17:32.600 a lot of people who have really weird careers that 0:17:32.960 --> 0:17:38.760 spend a lot of time in Italy and Uganda. It's 0:17:38.800 --> 0:17:44.080 it's it's a never ending uh right, whole of of 0:17:44.080 --> 0:17:48.720 of spooks, of conservatives, of has been feminists that have 0:17:48.880 --> 0:17:52.840 regranted as NGOs to get money from those groups and 0:17:53.000 --> 0:17:58.119 directed towards breaking up trans rights, towards affecting sex workers, 0:17:58.200 --> 0:18:03.400 towards breaking unions, breaking student movement. It's a global movement 0:18:04.000 --> 0:18:09.199 that is birthed by conservative thought, but getting more and 0:18:09.240 --> 0:18:12.840 more reactionary and more and more organized as time goes by. 0:18:13.040 --> 0:18:17.440 That international transphobic movement has increasingly found purchased in the US. 0:18:17.640 --> 0:18:20.959 I spoke to Lee Liaville and Kay Shiver's, two members 0:18:20.960 --> 0:18:24.119 of Health Liberation now with intimate experience with the turf 0:18:24.160 --> 0:18:29.800 movement who spent years particularly documenting its rise. So my 0:18:29.840 --> 0:18:34.399 first question is, can you'll explain what Wolf actually is? 0:18:34.680 --> 0:18:37.760 And I guess subsequent to that, what the relationship to 0:18:37.840 --> 0:18:46.239 hands across the aisle is? Um? Yeah, so Wolf is. UM. 0:18:46.359 --> 0:18:50.720 There are transphobic feminist group UM with at this point 0:18:50.800 --> 0:18:56.119 extensive ties to right wing organizations. Um. They've worked with 0:18:56.200 --> 0:19:00.680 Family Policy Alliance here, Died Foundation, and Alliance Defending Freedom Concerned, 0:19:00.720 --> 0:19:05.760 went for America Family Research Culture among others. Um. But 0:19:05.880 --> 0:19:11.320 they um, they got their start um and they started 0:19:11.320 --> 0:19:16.960 back in two thousand thirteen around when they were founded 0:19:16.960 --> 0:19:19.240 by Lear Keith, who also was one of the leaders 0:19:19.440 --> 0:19:22.960 of Deep Cream Resistance, and she basically got like, um, 0:19:23.119 --> 0:19:27.000 kind of run out of anarchists and environmentalist groups and 0:19:27.000 --> 0:19:31.240 then kind of like went over to uh established like 0:19:31.320 --> 0:19:34.240 turf communities try and recruit there. So I sort of 0:19:34.280 --> 0:19:37.560 like started out trying to like recruit from these like 0:19:38.320 --> 0:19:43.359 older turf and transphobic lesbian communities. And then after Trump 0:19:43.400 --> 0:19:48.080 got elected and um, you know, the conservative Christians on 0:19:48.119 --> 0:19:51.000 the far right became more mobilized and more empowered. They 0:19:51.080 --> 0:19:53.680 kind of like rebranded themselves and we're like, oh, let's 0:19:53.720 --> 0:19:56.280 form alliances with these right wing groups, and they kind 0:19:56.320 --> 0:20:02.879 of like traded. They're sort of like like crunchy lesbian feminists, 0:20:02.920 --> 0:20:06.560 like like image for like Kara Danski, who like you know, 0:20:06.760 --> 0:20:11.760 is a straight, fairly feminine looking woman who used to 0:20:11.800 --> 0:20:14.800 work for the c LU and like a Democrat and 0:20:14.880 --> 0:20:17.119 like you know, she's way more presentable to like the 0:20:17.160 --> 0:20:21.119 conservative audience, you know, by working with the right than 0:20:21.160 --> 0:20:24.840 they have access to like money and power, and they 0:20:24.840 --> 0:20:27.720 can it's easier to get on the media. Like like 0:20:27.800 --> 0:20:30.119 Kara Dansky is no longer with Wolf, but like she 0:20:30.240 --> 0:20:32.440 was with them for years and still has relations like 0:20:32.440 --> 0:20:33.920 like good relations with them, and she's been on the 0:20:33.960 --> 0:20:39.520 Tucker Carlson Show like many times. So I think one 0:20:39.560 --> 0:20:43.719 of the important pieces when it comes to understanding like 0:20:44.440 --> 0:20:50.399 how this relationship with the right started. So in in 0:20:50.560 --> 0:20:55.040 late two thousand and sixteen, Wolf put forward they're filing 0:20:55.240 --> 0:20:59.480 against the US Department of Justice and US Department of Education, right, 0:20:59.520 --> 0:21:02.560 and they were going up against aspects of like trying 0:21:02.600 --> 0:21:07.280 to reform Title nine to include gender identity, you know, 0:21:07.359 --> 0:21:10.920 to to protect folks um who need to be able 0:21:10.960 --> 0:21:15.520 to use the like women's restroom, our locker room or whatever, right, 0:21:15.760 --> 0:21:17.920 And this is the case that they ended up getting 0:21:18.040 --> 0:21:20.400 some of the a d F funding for. So it's 0:21:20.440 --> 0:21:23.600 like one of the first official seeds I guess of 0:21:23.720 --> 0:21:28.240 the direct collaboration ended up happening. Those A lot of 0:21:28.320 --> 0:21:30.600 that stuff did up eventually end up getting leaked, and 0:21:30.600 --> 0:21:34.560 then they started doing some more official collaborations. Just a 0:21:34.600 --> 0:21:36.960 few months later, Um, when they were working with like 0:21:37.080 --> 0:21:41.920 Family Policy Alliance, um Bile Amicust briefs against Gavin Grimm 0:21:42.280 --> 0:21:44.600 again out of bathroom case. Yeah, they took something like 0:21:44.600 --> 0:21:47.800 I think was like fifteen dollars from the Alliance depending Freedom, 0:21:47.840 --> 0:21:50.520 which is one of the main right wing groups like 0:21:51.200 --> 0:21:53.280 like trying to pass all these like anti trams bills 0:21:53.280 --> 0:21:56.360 like going after a pediatric transition and trans girls and 0:21:56.400 --> 0:21:59.440 in women's sports. So they took that money. And then yeah, 0:21:59.480 --> 0:22:02.399 then later I think like, um, the whole working with 0:22:02.440 --> 0:22:04.760 Family Policy Alliance I believe was the first time they 0:22:04.800 --> 0:22:08.080 like publicly allied with with the right ring group. I think. 0:22:08.119 --> 0:22:11.120 So that yeah, in January of two thousand seventeen. Yeah, 0:22:11.160 --> 0:22:14.280 and then they've just sort of like yeah, like they 0:22:14.320 --> 0:22:17.439 also were involved with like the Amicast frieze against was 0:22:17.480 --> 0:22:23.160 it Amy Stephens, um another Supreme Court case. I can't remember, Yeah, 0:22:23.200 --> 0:22:25.760 I wouldn't surprise me. And like members of both of 0:22:25.760 --> 0:22:28.679 a period on like Heritage Foundation panels, they helped like 0:22:29.160 --> 0:22:32.760 released a parent Resource Guide and anti transparent Resource Guide 0:22:32.760 --> 0:22:37.080 that was also sponsored by like Heritage Foundation, Family Policy Alliance. 0:22:37.720 --> 0:22:40.800 This this this is very similar to almost exactly what 0:22:40.840 --> 0:22:43.240 you see in Mexico, with just sort of slightly less 0:22:43.240 --> 0:22:46.639 physical violence, which yeah, it's it's a lot of you know. 0:22:46.680 --> 0:22:48.879 And the the other thing is that these are to 0:22:48.920 --> 0:22:51.359 a large extent exactly the same organizations. And that was 0:22:51.400 --> 0:22:52.720 one of the other things I want to talk about 0:22:52.760 --> 0:22:56.160 was the influence of Sheila Jeffreys and the Women's Decoration, 0:22:56.200 --> 0:23:03.000 which has been all over this whole movement. Yeah. The 0:23:03.040 --> 0:23:05.119 one thing to point out, so, like you know, the 0:23:05.200 --> 0:23:08.520 Women's Declaration International is in this in the US is 0:23:08.600 --> 0:23:11.840 led by Kara Danski, who Yo, she like basically like 0:23:11.960 --> 0:23:13.440 left you worked at Wolf for a long time and 0:23:13.520 --> 0:23:16.000 still has lots of connections with them, is on good 0:23:16.080 --> 0:23:18.560 terms with them, but she like left and now is 0:23:18.640 --> 0:23:22.480 like working with Women Declaration International of US France. So 0:23:23.160 --> 0:23:26.480 and she winds up having kind of like a foot 0:23:26.520 --> 0:23:29.160 in both worlds at the same time too, so like 0:23:29.200 --> 0:23:37.000 she'll like the US chapter Women's Declaration International previously like 0:23:37.560 --> 0:23:40.439 Women's Team and Rights Campaign before they had to rebrand 0:23:40.720 --> 0:23:47.280 um they but if if you if you read this 0:23:47.400 --> 0:23:55.160 COMMI yeah, yeah, exactly exactly. Um So, what what ends 0:23:55.200 --> 0:24:00.800 up happening is that Karen Danski will either like have 0:24:01.240 --> 0:24:07.359 the chapter sponsor particular events or she herself will become 0:24:07.400 --> 0:24:10.960 actively involved in the formation of the events, right, which 0:24:11.000 --> 0:24:14.280 we saw happen with UM women pick at d C 0:24:15.040 --> 0:24:19.760 last year where they were parking themselves outside of that 0:24:19.920 --> 0:24:23.480 was like it was a well that was that was 0:24:23.520 --> 0:24:27.119 a whole fix. Oh god, it was the purchase that 0:24:27.200 --> 0:24:32.120 happened on International Women's Day to protest the Equality Act. Yeah. 0:24:32.200 --> 0:24:36.240 And it's not like it's people's first time dealing with 0:24:36.280 --> 0:24:42.359 the Equality Act either. I mean, like so prior prior 0:24:42.440 --> 0:24:45.680 to that point, which and this starts to go into 0:24:46.160 --> 0:24:50.600 the like hands across the Aisle Coalition because they were 0:24:51.440 --> 0:24:55.960 actively involved in opposing the Equality Act as well. So 0:24:57.920 --> 0:25:00.480 to to kind of roll back a little bit, um 0:25:00.600 --> 0:25:03.320 that the hands across the Aisle Coalition. This was something 0:25:03.359 --> 0:25:07.600 that started developing in early two thousand seventeen, you know, 0:25:07.880 --> 0:25:11.959 not that long after Wolf started building the more direct 0:25:12.000 --> 0:25:16.399 relationships with the right and so that the people of 0:25:16.480 --> 0:25:19.840 this coalition would have like you would have members of 0:25:19.840 --> 0:25:23.800 the right itself. And in the process of that um, 0:25:23.880 --> 0:25:28.520 towards the beginning of two thousand nineteen, in May, they 0:25:28.520 --> 0:25:34.720 filed this joint letter to the House of Representative Speaker 0:25:34.840 --> 0:25:39.600 Nancy Pelosi to oppose things like the Equality Act UM 0:25:39.640 --> 0:25:45.200 and they did so alongside with Natasha Chart representing Wolf, 0:25:45.560 --> 0:25:50.200 Concerned Women for America, American College of Pediatricians Family Research Council. 0:25:50.560 --> 0:25:53.320 You know, a whole bunch of really just awful names, 0:25:53.320 --> 0:25:55.800 and they're, oh, yeah, the idea was involved in that one. Yes, 0:25:56.760 --> 0:25:58.840 it's really the Rose Gallery of all of the people 0:25:58.840 --> 0:26:02.000 who were anti gay marriage until we've still are but 0:26:02.560 --> 0:26:04.720 have downplayed it. And yeah, all people who let the 0:26:04.760 --> 0:26:07.600 anti game marriage campaigns, all of the sort of weird 0:26:07.720 --> 0:26:22.359 right wing pseudo medical bodies. The next thing I wanted 0:26:22.400 --> 0:26:25.240 to ask about is what's been happening in the last 0:26:25.280 --> 0:26:27.440 couple of years with the fusion, because I mean, so 0:26:27.720 --> 0:26:30.320 you already have your your alliance between the Turfs and 0:26:31.320 --> 0:26:34.639 the Evangelicals, but in the last couple of years we've 0:26:34.640 --> 0:26:38.560 seen a I don't know if if full scale is 0:26:38.560 --> 0:26:40.720 the right term to use for it. But we've seen 0:26:40.760 --> 0:26:44.520 a merger of this with Save the Children in Q 0:26:44.640 --> 0:26:46.119 and ON stuff, and I'm wondering if you can talk 0:26:46.160 --> 0:26:50.520 about that that's okay. So that's an interesting one because 0:26:50.640 --> 0:26:54.119 like I've I've been digging into the timeline of this 0:26:54.280 --> 0:27:00.800 stuff extensively. It's like I've got hundreds un rates of 0:27:01.240 --> 0:27:04.040 listings trying to figure out where different cases are coming 0:27:04.080 --> 0:27:08.560 from and trying to understand like the phases. Right, So 0:27:08.720 --> 0:27:12.720 you've you've got like the formation, the solidification, and then 0:27:12.720 --> 0:27:15.720 the escalation, and we're kind of in the escalation stage 0:27:15.880 --> 0:27:19.879 right now. But so one of the things that I 0:27:20.359 --> 0:27:26.800 started to notice is that elements of this crossover, like 0:27:26.880 --> 0:27:32.400 the cross pollination that was happening, actually predated certain key 0:27:32.440 --> 0:27:36.480 events that we now now are affiliated with Q and ON. Right, 0:27:36.920 --> 0:27:43.119 So if we think about the actual like development of 0:27:43.600 --> 0:27:45.920 Q and ON itself, So you've got the pizza Gate 0:27:46.000 --> 0:27:49.760 thing that was happening in like October two thousand sixteen. 0:27:49.840 --> 0:27:54.679 I believe that was, um, you know, right before Trump 0:27:54.760 --> 0:27:58.520 was getting elected and you know, kicking up some stuff 0:27:58.560 --> 0:28:02.359 about like you know, Hillary Clinton's emails and stuff like 0:28:02.440 --> 0:28:06.360 that to go up against her election campaign in opposition 0:28:06.440 --> 0:28:09.920