1 00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:07,400 Speaker 1: Welcome to It had Happen Here? A podcast that this 2 00:00:07,440 --> 00:00:10,480 Speaker 1: week is about the war on trans people. I'm your host, 3 00:00:10,560 --> 00:00:14,720 Speaker 1: Christopher Wong. If you've been around the left long enough, 4 00:00:14,800 --> 00:00:19,200 Speaker 1: you've probably heard people called transisclusionary, radical feminism or turf 5 00:00:19,360 --> 00:00:24,120 Speaker 1: is m a colonial ideology. Broadly, the accusation of colonialism 6 00:00:24,160 --> 00:00:26,680 Speaker 1: is about the erasure of non Western genders to fall 7 00:00:26,720 --> 00:00:30,639 Speaker 1: outside the Christian gender binary. But turfs or colonial in 8 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:34,080 Speaker 1: another sense as well, exported by white academics to a 9 00:00:34,159 --> 00:00:38,000 Speaker 1: network of fall feminist and anti trafficking groups, the ideology 10 00:00:38,040 --> 00:00:40,680 Speaker 1: has imposed itself on the global South, with devastating and 11 00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:45,280 Speaker 1: violent consequences. As a product of this colonial imposition, Mexico 12 00:00:45,360 --> 00:00:47,080 Speaker 1: has become one of the front lines in the war 13 00:00:47,120 --> 00:00:51,280 Speaker 1: against trans people. I spoke to Emmy Flores and Juliana Newhauser, 14 00:00:51,520 --> 00:00:54,720 Speaker 1: two members of the Sexual and Gender Dissidence Resistance Network, 15 00:00:55,320 --> 00:00:57,720 Speaker 1: a group of activists aligned with the Zapatistas who have 16 00:00:57,760 --> 00:00:59,880 Speaker 1: been documenting and resisting the spread of turfs and me 17 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:04,440 Speaker 1: to go when the new Turf Wave started in Mexico 18 00:01:05,240 --> 00:01:11,080 Speaker 1: several years back. Um At the time, I thought I 19 00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:13,760 Speaker 1: thought of it as something that like a radicalization that 20 00:01:13,800 --> 00:01:16,679 Speaker 1: went too farn you know, like kind of like thinking 21 00:01:16,680 --> 00:01:19,920 Speaker 1: back to the New Left, and there was a point 22 00:01:20,920 --> 00:01:26,200 Speaker 1: during the New Left when like suddenly everybody joined a 23 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:32,720 Speaker 1: Baoist cult and they were angry for the right reasons, 24 00:01:32,760 --> 00:01:37,959 Speaker 1: but it just went off. At some point, I thought 25 00:01:37,959 --> 00:01:41,919 Speaker 1: that's what was going on in Mexico. But then slowly 26 00:01:41,959 --> 00:01:44,000 Speaker 1: it started to come out more that more and more 27 00:01:44,720 --> 00:01:48,720 Speaker 1: turf groups were had to tie us to political parties 28 00:01:50,440 --> 00:01:53,560 Speaker 1: and one of them and foreign agents. And one of 29 00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:58,200 Speaker 1: the one of the most dramatic cases, UM is from 30 00:01:58,240 --> 00:02:06,280 Speaker 1: Toluca Sitty near Mexico City. UM just recently at the 31 00:02:06,360 --> 00:02:09,359 Speaker 1: International Women's State protests, like there were turf groups that 32 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:14,679 Speaker 1: had made a pinata out of the trans flag, had 33 00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:18,480 Speaker 1: been burning the trans flag. Also in this same city, 34 00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:22,040 Speaker 1: one of the main turf groups turns out that their 35 00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:26,799 Speaker 1: leader is on government payroll. And if you've seen Roma, 36 00:02:26,919 --> 00:02:30,760 Speaker 1: for example, the incident, the political incident that happens in 37 00:02:30,760 --> 00:02:34,760 Speaker 1: that movie based on real incident from the seventies, and 38 00:02:35,160 --> 00:02:37,800 Speaker 1: the tactics of that political party, which is the party 39 00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:41,280 Speaker 1: that controls the state government of the state to Lucas 40 00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:45,200 Speaker 1: in basically it hasn't changed and they seem to have 41 00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:50,120 Speaker 1: been using these turfs basically as shock troops. At one 42 00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:53,680 Speaker 1: point there were two sit ins outside the state Congress, 43 00:02:54,400 --> 00:02:57,040 Speaker 1: one to push for a gender identity a law and 44 00:02:57,120 --> 00:02:59,400 Speaker 1: another to push for the igaliciation of abortion, which are 45 00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:04,800 Speaker 1: obviously both important things. The ladder, however, was controlled by 46 00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:09,960 Speaker 1: these turf groups, who later mysteriously never seems to appear 47 00:03:10,080 --> 00:03:14,160 Speaker 1: at other protests asking for the legalization of abortion. But 48 00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:17,640 Speaker 1: they were there and they ran off the trans encampment. 49 00:03:18,160 --> 00:03:22,120 Speaker 1: One of them big incidents was defending the sanctity if 50 00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:26,480 Speaker 1: the women's bathroom with barbed wire wrapped baseball bats Jesus. 51 00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:30,520 Speaker 1: These groups have deep ties to right wing Mexican political parties, 52 00:03:30,639 --> 00:03:33,400 Speaker 1: the police, and the growing Turf international, and they seem 53 00:03:33,480 --> 00:03:38,000 Speaker 1: to be very chummy with the local police. Their leader 54 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:45,160 Speaker 1: um gives classes, it gives like trainings to the state 55 00:03:45,200 --> 00:03:51,040 Speaker 1: government like that. It's it's not subtle, you know. You 56 00:03:51,040 --> 00:03:53,960 Speaker 1: can see live strings of the quote unquote protests, and 57 00:03:53,960 --> 00:03:57,920 Speaker 1: he was mostly them like drinking coffee with the cops, 58 00:03:57,920 --> 00:04:01,600 Speaker 1: like they were on firstly vasis with the cops, while 59 00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:05,720 Speaker 1: the the other camp had like translimin the world were 60 00:04:05,720 --> 00:04:08,160 Speaker 1: too scared to go to the bathroom because they were 61 00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:13,440 Speaker 1: going to be attacked, and so that's the starkest group 62 00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:17,719 Speaker 1: I think, right, the delicators, which are Yeah, it's funny 63 00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:21,359 Speaker 1: because almost every party has their own the wrong group. 64 00:04:21,520 --> 00:04:24,200 Speaker 1: But yeah, also it's not surprised that p r I 65 00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:27,839 Speaker 1: is the scariest. Yeah. We should also say that these 66 00:04:27,839 --> 00:04:33,640 Speaker 1: groups are affiliates with Jila Jeffreys Women's Speculation International Um. 67 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:37,360 Speaker 1: And so this is also a case of an ideology 68 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:42,119 Speaker 1: developed in the First World, in this case England, which 69 00:04:42,160 --> 00:04:46,640 Speaker 1: is largely a safe country where even as fascist and 70 00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:50,400 Speaker 1: ideology as turfism doesn't or only very rarely leads to 71 00:04:51,279 --> 00:04:56,400 Speaker 1: real violence, and but it gets exported the countries that 72 00:04:56,440 --> 00:04:58,919 Speaker 1: are not safe where it does turn into real violence. 73 00:04:59,800 --> 00:05:05,039 Speaker 1: So another affiliate UM of Sheila Jefferies Human's Decoration in 74 00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:09,599 Speaker 1: Mexico would be Las Bruces Delmar, who is another case 75 00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:15,200 Speaker 1: of At first they seemed to be a group that 76 00:05:15,320 --> 00:05:19,360 Speaker 1: was just they just radicalized a bit too far. Then 77 00:05:19,440 --> 00:05:21,800 Speaker 1: photos came out of their leader who is on the 78 00:05:21,839 --> 00:05:25,880 Speaker 1: time one hundred a couple of years back with Felipe Calderon, 79 00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:29,280 Speaker 1: an ex president of Mexico and like by far one 80 00:05:29,279 --> 00:05:32,800 Speaker 1: of the worst in the country's history, and not like 81 00:05:33,720 --> 00:05:36,880 Speaker 1: like just oh, I saw you walking in the street. 82 00:05:36,960 --> 00:05:39,960 Speaker 1: She was at a book signing. It was not a 83 00:05:39,960 --> 00:05:43,840 Speaker 1: casual encounter. It was a clear sign of admiration in 84 00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:48,680 Speaker 1: the It's been more than confirmed since then that her 85 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:55,520 Speaker 1: political ambitions lie with the p AN, the the farthest 86 00:05:55,640 --> 00:06:00,840 Speaker 1: right mainstream political party in n School. This political alliance 87 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:03,719 Speaker 1: between the Turfs and the right has benefits for both sides. 88 00:06:04,279 --> 00:06:07,560 Speaker 1: The Turf's gained funding institutional backing for their war against 89 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:10,360 Speaker 1: trans people. The right gained a way to attack the 90 00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:14,600 Speaker 1: vaguely center left Mexican President Andrea's Manuel Lopez Obrador by 91 00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:18,880 Speaker 1: blaming him and trans people from Mexico's horrific wave of femicides, 92 00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:22,600 Speaker 1: while distracting from its actual sources NAFTA and the War 93 00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:26,800 Speaker 1: on drugs. Mexico's trans population, however, gained a new Western 94 00:06:26,960 --> 00:06:30,240 Speaker 1: educated threat. When I say the radical feminism was a 95 00:06:30,279 --> 00:06:35,039 Speaker 1: complete import it's from its very beginning in the For 96 00:06:35,080 --> 00:06:37,760 Speaker 1: a long while, there was like one Turf in Mexico 97 00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:42,800 Speaker 1: and she was She's called gian Maria. Yo, don't even 98 00:06:42,839 --> 00:06:45,040 Speaker 1: try to pronounce her name. I don't think she can 99 00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:47,440 Speaker 1: even pronounce her name because she's white ass hill and 100 00:06:47,920 --> 00:06:51,040 Speaker 1: she's always dresses like she's a fucking Rachel dollars Hill 101 00:06:51,080 --> 00:06:58,599 Speaker 1: from Mexico's irony that the first originary in Mexico is 102 00:06:58,720 --> 00:07:02,919 Speaker 1: also the Mexican Rachel, right, because she went abroad and 103 00:07:03,080 --> 00:07:05,800 Speaker 1: was like the only Mexican everyone knew. So even though 104 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:09,159 Speaker 1: she's white a cell and has blue eyes, she started 105 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:13,400 Speaker 1: wearing some Coachella motherfucking as uh feathers and ship right, 106 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:17,800 Speaker 1: I've seen I've seen these pictures. It's it is, it 107 00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:22,560 Speaker 1: is like it is. It is the Mexican version of 108 00:07:22,680 --> 00:07:25,440 Speaker 1: and not even just the it is the Mexican version 109 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:28,600 Speaker 1: of those people like Coachella who like wear indigenous head dresses, 110 00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:31,720 Speaker 1: who are just like just like look look like they're 111 00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:38,360 Speaker 1: descended from like hydroc Hembler or something. And like she's 112 00:07:38,480 --> 00:07:42,520 Speaker 1: she has like she has like half French, half Spanish 113 00:07:42,640 --> 00:07:45,160 Speaker 1: name and she changed it to a half maya half 114 00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:48,760 Speaker 1: novel name. It's gross. So this this person has been 115 00:07:48,800 --> 00:07:52,040 Speaker 1: actives in the seventies, right, she went to she was 116 00:07:52,120 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 1: present in the first Pride in Mexico, and uh she 117 00:07:55,960 --> 00:07:59,600 Speaker 1: who that was? That was also the two year anniversary 118 00:07:59,680 --> 00:08:05,640 Speaker 1: of the massacre, So Pride was from the start really 119 00:08:05,760 --> 00:08:08,760 Speaker 1: leftist here in Mexico, but it also had these kind 120 00:08:08,760 --> 00:08:14,400 Speaker 1: of people, the who who went to the UK, friends 121 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:19,840 Speaker 1: and the United States. And I think she was there 122 00:08:20,040 --> 00:08:26,520 Speaker 1: when Jennie Raymond was like sending her friends with guns 123 00:08:26,560 --> 00:08:33,040 Speaker 1: to to UH threatened trans women, right, So that's she 124 00:08:33,040 --> 00:08:37,800 Speaker 1: she She was there when the turf Wars were at 125 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:41,480 Speaker 1: the highest point during the seventies and then came back 126 00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:46,840 Speaker 1: and parton. She participating in a lot of history of 127 00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:51,720 Speaker 1: Mexican feminism. But the time that she came back in 128 00:08:51,760 --> 00:08:55,520 Speaker 1: two thousand sixteen with that letter, with that backing, because 129 00:08:56,200 --> 00:08:59,920 Speaker 1: she is also close to Jennie Raymond with the qualities 130 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:06,960 Speaker 1: again against Trafficking in Women who the Coalition against Trafficking, 131 00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:11,440 Speaker 1: the Coalition against Trafficking in Women cat W has a 132 00:09:11,440 --> 00:09:18,120 Speaker 1: lot of After the Turf Wars, they went underground in 133 00:09:18,160 --> 00:09:20,760 Speaker 1: the in academia and the universities, right because they were 134 00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:24,480 Speaker 1: no longer accepted, but they were in the process of 135 00:09:24,520 --> 00:09:30,480 Speaker 1: building and geos that could globally affect policy on UH, 136 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:34,079 Speaker 1: specifically sex work and trans rights. And you can tell 137 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:37,959 Speaker 1: that gian Maria saw that that was her only opportunity 138 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:42,439 Speaker 1: to resurface UH and to make her seventies as UH 139 00:09:42,559 --> 00:09:46,199 Speaker 1: she saw that seventies rat fan discourse was ret right now, 140 00:09:46,600 --> 00:09:50,240 Speaker 1: and so she became like this uh found found in 141 00:09:50,280 --> 00:09:55,040 Speaker 1: matriarch for the new generation of transfers, one of them 142 00:09:55,240 --> 00:09:57,720 Speaker 1: which is a lot of Luana who is part of 143 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:03,680 Speaker 1: FEMBA and the Gean media and Lekuana. We're not faced 144 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:08,439 Speaker 1: at all by the accusations of aligned with the reactionaries 145 00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:11,240 Speaker 1: because they know their history, they know where they come from, 146 00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:14,360 Speaker 1: and they know that this is how Dorkin survived, this 147 00:10:14,440 --> 00:10:20,640 Speaker 1: is how uh how Sheila Jefferies and Jennie Raymond survived. 148 00:10:20,679 --> 00:10:24,280 Speaker 1: This is where you get the fucking money. And later 149 00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:29,440 Speaker 1: Quana gehn Maria and turned the whole environment around them 150 00:10:29,559 --> 00:10:35,040 Speaker 1: into these uh well, these surf questions. The only two 151 00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:41,120 Speaker 1: issues that we talked about nowadays in Mexican feminism are 152 00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:46,440 Speaker 1: our president and trans people. It's kind of gross Jesus, 153 00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:52,280 Speaker 1: and that like remember, like there's only a handful of 154 00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:56,600 Speaker 1: states that have legalized deportion. There's femicides happening all the time, 155 00:10:57,280 --> 00:11:03,840 Speaker 1: and but we're we continued to debate these two issues 156 00:11:04,080 --> 00:11:06,400 Speaker 1: over and over and over again like a feedback group, 157 00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:10,040 Speaker 1: and like, as trans people, we don't have any choice 158 00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:13,959 Speaker 1: because we're the targets of this right, and it's not 159 00:11:14,600 --> 00:11:18,480 Speaker 1: it's not an academic debate. Last fall, um there was 160 00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:24,720 Speaker 1: some Turfs who had taken over a public park to 161 00:11:24,920 --> 00:11:28,559 Speaker 1: set up their separatist space, and there was a disabled 162 00:11:28,920 --> 00:11:33,720 Speaker 1: CIS woman and her trans girlfriend who are denied entry 163 00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:38,880 Speaker 1: at the park and threatened with tasers. And so when 164 00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:44,720 Speaker 1: they're taking over these public spaces and using violence to 165 00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:46,960 Speaker 1: defend them, because the next week there is a protest 166 00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:51,520 Speaker 1: over this and they there is a they taste to 167 00:11:51,600 --> 00:11:56,480 Speaker 1: transpan and it's like, this is like a public park, like, 168 00:11:56,840 --> 00:12:09,400 Speaker 1: of course we have to defend ourselves. M The Coalition 169 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:14,360 Speaker 1: against Trafficking and Women or cat W, an international anti 170 00:12:14,440 --> 00:12:17,720 Speaker 1: sex worker group which provided a refuge for white turfs 171 00:12:17,760 --> 00:12:21,040 Speaker 1: driven from mainstream feminism in their home countries, has been 172 00:12:21,040 --> 00:12:24,240 Speaker 1: a major source of Turfy influence in Latin America. The 173 00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:27,880 Speaker 1: reason there is so much important of this ideology towards 174 00:12:28,400 --> 00:12:32,199 Speaker 1: radical feminists in Mexico, Uh, it's that they needed something 175 00:12:32,200 --> 00:12:36,199 Speaker 1: to say and something to do and something to feel 176 00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:41,720 Speaker 1: the void uh in organizing and n geos and the 177 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:46,600 Speaker 1: people who stepped up where Jenny's Raymond's cat W right, 178 00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:51,080 Speaker 1: the Coalition Against African in women who since the noneidies, 179 00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:57,800 Speaker 1: UH spent UH a decade and a half building contexts 180 00:12:57,880 --> 00:13:01,600 Speaker 1: in the in the u N, in the O S 181 00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:07,040 Speaker 1: in several international organisms to extend their influence across the 182 00:13:07,040 --> 00:13:11,320 Speaker 1: whole continent, specifically in Latin America and UH you can 183 00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:15,320 Speaker 1: see this affecting stuff like stuff like Venezuela where they 184 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:21,920 Speaker 1: broke up sex worker unions too two with the the 185 00:13:21,960 --> 00:13:25,480 Speaker 1: O A S right and in Mexico, the founding leader 186 00:13:25,520 --> 00:13:30,000 Speaker 1: of the Mexican branch of of cad W, Teresa used 187 00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:35,520 Speaker 1: to be a un employee, specifically it's drug and crime segment, 188 00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:39,480 Speaker 1: and before she was like a radical feminist. She used 189 00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:45,960 Speaker 1: to conduct drug rades in Chapa's and yeah, and after 190 00:13:46,080 --> 00:13:49,680 Speaker 1: that she became UH the founding member of cad W 191 00:13:49,920 --> 00:13:55,000 Speaker 1: Latin America and the Caribbean. And with Janice Raymond, they 192 00:13:55,640 --> 00:14:00,320 Speaker 1: you can see them go together to the Beijing Conference 193 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:05,000 Speaker 1: on Women and they influenced like those they they were 194 00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:07,440 Speaker 1: a big part of why gender is not recognized as 195 00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:10,480 Speaker 1: a social construct by the u N. They allied with 196 00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:14,160 Speaker 1: the Holy See, with the representative from the Vatican in 197 00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:17,280 Speaker 1: the u N, got together with a couple of radical 198 00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:20,320 Speaker 1: feminists and pushed back against gender being recognized as a 199 00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:26,640 Speaker 1: social construct in so that's the level of influence these 200 00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:31,520 Speaker 1: groups have in Mexico. UH, these groups which morphed into 201 00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:36,920 Speaker 1: the c w UH supported the war and drugs from 202 00:14:36,920 --> 00:14:42,320 Speaker 1: the get go. They were very high in some of 203 00:14:42,360 --> 00:14:45,760 Speaker 1: the biggest events in now curating the war and drugs. 204 00:14:46,040 --> 00:14:50,040 Speaker 1: They were present right there, because if you're fighting drug trafficking, 205 00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:54,600 Speaker 1: it's very easy to just sleep the word human right there. Right, 206 00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:58,600 Speaker 1: No politicians gonna say no. They all fucking love to say, yeah, 207 00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:02,840 Speaker 1: I'm hard on on human trafficking. And the way that 208 00:15:03,520 --> 00:15:07,760 Speaker 1: UH showed itself A was just targeting trans sex workers 209 00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:12,320 Speaker 1: and migrant sex workers. And with that and that feeding 210 00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:16,840 Speaker 1: the agenda of Jenny's Raymond perfectly. Sheila Jeffries Gotta basically 211 00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:21,840 Speaker 1: survived the whole two thousands on writing garbage for reports 212 00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:25,680 Speaker 1: for the u N. Most of her published works during 213 00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:30,360 Speaker 1: the two thousands and early twenty tents. It's stuff paid 214 00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:39,400 Speaker 1: for cattle, and they they they In two thousands sixteen, 215 00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:43,400 Speaker 1: they started pushing for more and more anti trans legislation 216 00:15:43,520 --> 00:15:45,880 Speaker 1: worldwide because they could see the writing on the world right. 217 00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:52,880 Speaker 1: They were behind the Women's Declaration, the Sheila Jeffries is 218 00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:56,480 Speaker 1: not okay, she is part of catally, she's I think 219 00:15:56,760 --> 00:16:00,000 Speaker 1: card W Australia. She has her own all other coltics, 220 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:03,240 Speaker 1: all Space International, which is behind Foster system by the way, 221 00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:06,600 Speaker 1: in the US, where she allied with a couple of 222 00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:12,600 Speaker 1: conservative sheriffs to write the legislation so we could go 223 00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:17,160 Speaker 1: on and on on. How like people that read that 224 00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:21,600 Speaker 1: our transitions think are gone and forgotten by history. Right, 225 00:16:21,680 --> 00:16:24,160 Speaker 1: the the authors of these horrible books that haunt us 226 00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:27,800 Speaker 1: to this day are still active, and not just in 227 00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:31,240 Speaker 1: the US. They're active in Mexico, in the UK, in France, 228 00:16:31,520 --> 00:16:38,320 Speaker 1: in South Africa, in Korea. Korea is huge in I 229 00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:41,160 Speaker 1: think I would say Korea is as has as big 230 00:16:41,160 --> 00:16:44,040 Speaker 1: a problem as Mexico and the UK. We just don't 231 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:46,880 Speaker 1: talk to them as much and we can't realize that. 232 00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:51,000 Speaker 1: But if you check them the languages that have signed 233 00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:54,560 Speaker 1: the Shila Jefferis Declaration against trans People, which is a 234 00:16:54,640 --> 00:16:58,480 Speaker 1: specifically general sidal, the Coloration Declaration. It doesn't stop at 235 00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:03,320 Speaker 1: like legislation. It wants to exterminators out right. Yeah, and 236 00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:05,480 Speaker 1: most of them. You were gonna see a lot of 237 00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:07,720 Speaker 1: Brazilian flags, a lot of Mexican flax, a lot of 238 00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:12,520 Speaker 1: Korean flags, even more than the United States flags. And 239 00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:16,919 Speaker 1: if you track the USA flags, it's mostly like weird 240 00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:20,879 Speaker 1: randalls that have yoga classes and ship it's not relevant politicians. 241 00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:23,520 Speaker 1: But if you track the other countries, you're gonna find 242 00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:26,159 Speaker 1: some of the biggest collectives in the in their own countries. 243 00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:29,680 Speaker 1: You're gonna find or just spooks. Right, You're gonna find 244 00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:32,600 Speaker 1: a lot of people who have really weird careers that 245 00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:38,760 Speaker 1: spend a lot of time in Italy and Uganda. It's 246 00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:44,080 Speaker 1: it's it's a never ending uh right, whole of of 247 00:17:44,080 --> 00:17:48,720 Speaker 1: of spooks, of conservatives, of has been feminists that have 248 00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:52,840 Speaker 1: regranted as NGOs to get money from those groups and 249 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:58,119 Speaker 1: directed towards breaking up trans rights, towards affecting sex workers, 250 00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:03,400 Speaker 1: towards breaking unions, breaking student movement. It's a global movement 251 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:09,199 Speaker 1: that is birthed by conservative thought, but getting more and 252 00:18:09,240 --> 00:18:12,840 Speaker 1: more reactionary and more and more organized as time goes by. 253 00:18:13,040 --> 00:18:17,440 Speaker 1: That international transphobic movement has increasingly found purchased in the US. 254 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:20,959 Speaker 1: I spoke to Lee Liaville and Kay Shiver's, two members 255 00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:24,119 Speaker 1: of Health Liberation now with intimate experience with the turf 256 00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:29,800 Speaker 1: movement who spent years particularly documenting its rise. So my 257 00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:34,399 Speaker 1: first question is, can you'll explain what Wolf actually is? 258 00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:37,760 Speaker 1: And I guess subsequent to that, what the relationship to 259 00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:46,239 Speaker 1: hands across the aisle is? Um? Yeah, so Wolf is. UM. 260 00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:50,720 Speaker 1: There are transphobic feminist group UM with at this point 261 00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:56,119 Speaker 1: extensive ties to right wing organizations. Um. They've worked with 262 00:18:56,200 --> 00:19:00,680 Speaker 1: Family Policy Alliance here, Died Foundation, and Alliance Defending Freedom Concerned, 263 00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:05,760 Speaker 1: went for America Family Research Culture among others. Um. But 264 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:11,320 Speaker 1: they um, they got their start um and they started 265 00:19:11,320 --> 00:19:16,960 Speaker 1: back in two thousand thirteen around when they were founded 266 00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:19,240 Speaker 1: by Lear Keith, who also was one of the leaders 267 00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:22,960 Speaker 1: of Deep Cream Resistance, and she basically got like, um, 268 00:19:23,119 --> 00:19:27,000 Speaker 1: kind of run out of anarchists and environmentalist groups and 269 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:31,240 Speaker 1: then kind of like went over to uh established like 270 00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:34,240 Speaker 1: turf communities try and recruit there. So I sort of 271 00:19:34,280 --> 00:19:37,560 Speaker 1: like started out trying to like recruit from these like 272 00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:43,359 Speaker 1: older turf and transphobic lesbian communities. And then after Trump 273 00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:48,080 Speaker 1: got elected and um, you know, the conservative Christians on 274 00:19:48,119 --> 00:19:51,000 Speaker 1: the far right became more mobilized and more empowered. They 275 00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:53,680 Speaker 1: kind of like rebranded themselves and we're like, oh, let's 276 00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:56,280 Speaker 1: form alliances with these right wing groups, and they kind 277 00:19:56,320 --> 00:20:02,879 Speaker 1: of like traded. They're sort of like like crunchy lesbian feminists, 278 00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:06,560 Speaker 1: like like image for like Kara Danski, who like you know, 279 00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:11,760 Speaker 1: is a straight, fairly feminine looking woman who used to 280 00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:14,800 Speaker 1: work for the c LU and like a Democrat and 281 00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:17,119 Speaker 1: like you know, she's way more presentable to like the 282 00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:21,119 Speaker 1: conservative audience, you know, by working with the right than 283 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:24,840 Speaker 1: they have access to like money and power, and they 284 00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:27,720 Speaker 1: can it's easier to get on the media. Like like 285 00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:30,119 Speaker 1: Kara Dansky is no longer with Wolf, but like she 286 00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:32,440 Speaker 1: was with them for years and still has relations like 287 00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:33,920 Speaker 1: like good relations with them, and she's been on the 288 00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:39,520 Speaker 1: Tucker Carlson Show like many times. So I think one 289 00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:43,719 Speaker 1: of the important pieces when it comes to understanding like 290 00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:50,399 Speaker 1: how this relationship with the right started. So in in 291 00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:55,040 Speaker 1: late two thousand and sixteen, Wolf put forward they're filing 292 00:20:55,240 --> 00:20:59,480 Speaker 1: against the US Department of Justice and US Department of Education, right, 293 00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:02,560 Speaker 1: and they were going up against aspects of like trying 294 00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:07,280 Speaker 1: to reform Title nine to include gender identity, you know, 295 00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:10,920 Speaker 1: to to protect folks um who need to be able 296 00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:15,520 Speaker 1: to use the like women's restroom, our locker room or whatever, right, 297 00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:17,920 Speaker 1: And this is the case that they ended up getting 298 00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:20,400 Speaker 1: some of the a d F funding for. So it's 299 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:23,600 Speaker 1: like one of the first official seeds I guess of 300 00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:28,240 Speaker 1: the direct collaboration ended up happening. Those A lot of 301 00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:30,600 Speaker 1: that stuff did up eventually end up getting leaked, and 302 00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:34,560 Speaker 1: then they started doing some more official collaborations. Just a 303 00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:36,960 Speaker 1: few months later, Um, when they were working with like 304 00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:41,920 Speaker 1: Family Policy Alliance, um Bile Amicust briefs against Gavin Grimm 305 00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:44,600 Speaker 1: again out of bathroom case. Yeah, they took something like 306 00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:47,800 Speaker 1: I think was like fifteen dollars from the Alliance depending Freedom, 307 00:21:47,840 --> 00:21:50,520 Speaker 1: which is one of the main right wing groups like 308 00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:53,280 Speaker 1: like trying to pass all these like anti trams bills 309 00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:56,360 Speaker 1: like going after a pediatric transition and trans girls and 310 00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:59,440 Speaker 1: in women's sports. So they took that money. And then yeah, 311 00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:02,399 Speaker 1: then later I think like, um, the whole working with 312 00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:04,760 Speaker 1: Family Policy Alliance I believe was the first time they 313 00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:08,080 Speaker 1: like publicly allied with with the right ring group. I think. 314 00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:11,120 Speaker 1: So that yeah, in January of two thousand seventeen. Yeah, 315 00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:14,280 Speaker 1: and then they've just sort of like yeah, like they 316 00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:17,439 Speaker 1: also were involved with like the Amicast frieze against was 317 00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:23,160 Speaker 1: it Amy Stephens, um another Supreme Court case. I can't remember, Yeah, 318 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:25,760 Speaker 1: I wouldn't surprise me. And like members of both of 319 00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:28,679 Speaker 1: a period on like Heritage Foundation panels, they helped like 320 00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:32,760 Speaker 1: released a parent Resource Guide and anti transparent Resource Guide 321 00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:37,080 Speaker 1: that was also sponsored by like Heritage Foundation, Family Policy Alliance. 322 00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:40,800 Speaker 1: This this this is very similar to almost exactly what 323 00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:43,240 Speaker 1: you see in Mexico, with just sort of slightly less 324 00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:46,639 Speaker 1: physical violence, which yeah, it's it's a lot of you know. 325 00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:48,879 Speaker 1: And the the other thing is that these are to 326 00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:51,359 Speaker 1: a large extent exactly the same organizations. And that was 327 00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:52,720 Speaker 1: one of the other things I want to talk about 328 00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:56,160 Speaker 1: was the influence of Sheila Jeffreys and the Women's Decoration, 329 00:22:56,200 --> 00:23:03,000 Speaker 1: which has been all over this whole movement. Yeah. The 330 00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:05,119 Speaker 1: one thing to point out, so, like you know, the 331 00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:08,520 Speaker 1: Women's Declaration International is in this in the US is 332 00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:11,840 Speaker 1: led by Kara Danski, who Yo, she like basically like 333 00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:13,440 Speaker 1: left you worked at Wolf for a long time and 334 00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:16,000 Speaker 1: still has lots of connections with them, is on good 335 00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:18,560 Speaker 1: terms with them, but she like left and now is 336 00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:22,480 Speaker 1: like working with Women Declaration International of US France. So 337 00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:26,480 Speaker 1: and she winds up having kind of like a foot 338 00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:29,160 Speaker 1: in both worlds at the same time too, so like 339 00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:37,000 Speaker 1: she'll like the US chapter Women's Declaration International previously like 340 00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:40,439 Speaker 1: Women's Team and Rights Campaign before they had to rebrand 341 00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:47,280 Speaker 1: um they but if if you if you read this 342 00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:55,160 Speaker 1: COMMI yeah, yeah, exactly exactly. Um So, what what ends 343 00:23:55,200 --> 00:24:00,800 Speaker 1: up happening is that Karen Danski will either like have 344 00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:07,359 Speaker 1: the chapter sponsor particular events or she herself will become 345 00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:10,960 Speaker 1: actively involved in the formation of the events, right, which 346 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:14,280 Speaker 1: we saw happen with UM women pick at d C 347 00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:19,760 Speaker 1: last year where they were parking themselves outside of that 348 00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:23,480 Speaker 1: was like it was a well that was that was 349 00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:27,119 Speaker 1: a whole fix. Oh god, it was the purchase that 350 00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:32,120 Speaker 1: happened on International Women's Day to protest the Equality Act. Yeah. 351 00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:36,240 Speaker 1: And it's not like it's people's first time dealing with 352 00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:42,359 Speaker 1: the Equality Act either. I mean, like so prior prior 353 00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:45,680 Speaker 1: to that point, which and this starts to go into 354 00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:50,600 Speaker 1: the like hands across the Aisle Coalition because they were 355 00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:55,960 Speaker 1: actively involved in opposing the Equality Act as well. So 356 00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:00,480 Speaker 1: to to kind of roll back a little bit, um 357 00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:03,320 Speaker 1: that the hands across the Aisle Coalition. This was something 358 00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:07,600 Speaker 1: that started developing in early two thousand seventeen, you know, 359 00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:11,959 Speaker 1: not that long after Wolf started building the more direct 360 00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:16,399 Speaker 1: relationships with the right and so that the people of 361 00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:19,840 Speaker 1: this coalition would have like you would have members of 362 00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:23,800 Speaker 1: the right itself. And in the process of that um, 363 00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:28,520 Speaker 1: towards the beginning of two thousand nineteen, in May, they 364 00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:34,720 Speaker 1: filed this joint letter to the House of Representative Speaker 365 00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:39,600 Speaker 1: Nancy Pelosi to oppose things like the Equality Act UM 366 00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:45,200 Speaker 1: and they did so alongside with Natasha Chart representing Wolf, 367 00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:50,200 Speaker 1: Concerned Women for America, American College of Pediatricians Family Research Council. 368 00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:53,320 Speaker 1: You know, a whole bunch of really just awful names, 369 00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:55,800 Speaker 1: and they're, oh, yeah, the idea was involved in that one. Yes, 370 00:25:56,760 --> 00:25:58,840 Speaker 1: it's really the Rose Gallery of all of the people 371 00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:02,000 Speaker 1: who were anti gay marriage until we've still are but 372 00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:04,720 Speaker 1: have downplayed it. And yeah, all people who let the 373 00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:07,600 Speaker 1: anti game marriage campaigns, all of the sort of weird 374 00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:22,359 Speaker 1: right wing pseudo medical bodies. The next thing I wanted 375 00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:25,240 Speaker 1: to ask about is what's been happening in the last 376 00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:27,440 Speaker 1: couple of years with the fusion, because I mean, so 377 00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:30,320 Speaker 1: you already have your your alliance between the Turfs and 378 00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:34,639 Speaker 1: the Evangelicals, but in the last couple of years we've 379 00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:38,560 Speaker 1: seen a I don't know if if full scale is 380 00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:40,720 Speaker 1: the right term to use for it. But we've seen 381 00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:44,520 Speaker 1: a merger of this with Save the Children in Q 382 00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:46,119 Speaker 1: and ON stuff, and I'm wondering if you can talk 383 00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:50,520 Speaker 1: about that that's okay. So that's an interesting one because 384 00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:54,119 Speaker 1: like I've I've been digging into the timeline of this 385 00:26:54,280 --> 00:27:00,800 Speaker 1: stuff extensively. It's like I've got hundreds un rates of 386 00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:04,040 Speaker 1: listings trying to figure out where different cases are coming 387 00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:08,560 Speaker 1: from and trying to understand like the phases. Right, So 388 00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:12,720 Speaker 1: you've you've got like the formation, the solidification, and then 389 00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:15,720 Speaker 1: the escalation, and we're kind of in the escalation stage 390 00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:19,879 Speaker 1: right now. But so one of the things that I 391 00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:26,800 Speaker 1: started to notice is that elements of this crossover, like 392 00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:32,400 Speaker 1: the cross pollination that was happening, actually predated certain key 393 00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:36,480 Speaker 1: events that we now now are affiliated with Q and ON. Right, 394 00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:43,119 Speaker 1: So if we think about the actual like development of 395 00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:45,920 Speaker 1: Q and ON itself, So you've got the pizza Gate 396 00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:49,760 Speaker 1: thing that was happening in like October two thousand sixteen. 397 00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:54,679 Speaker 1: I believe that was, um, you know, right before Trump 398 00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:58,520 Speaker 1: was getting elected and you know, kicking up some stuff 399 00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:02,359 Speaker 1: about like you know, Hillary Clinton's emails and stuff like 400 00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:06,360 Speaker 1: that to go up against her election campaign in opposition 401 00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:09,920 Speaker 1: to Trump, and then you know, folding in the harassment 402 00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:13,399 Speaker 1: towards um comment ping Pong to the point where like 403 00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:17,159 Speaker 1: Edgar Madison Wealth shows up at comment Ping Pong in 404 00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:20,280 Speaker 1: December of two thousand sixteen with an a R fifteen 405 00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:22,879 Speaker 1: style rifle and starts, you know, firing off his shots 406 00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:29,440 Speaker 1: and stuff like that. Right, and so eventually, um, most 407 00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:32,439 Speaker 1: people know that the timeline of the Q and on 408 00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:35,800 Speaker 1: drops happening around like October two thousand seventeen. Like if 409 00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:39,440 Speaker 1: you look up the original like the first known Q drops, 410 00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:44,480 Speaker 1: I believe that was like October two seventeen on four Chan. 411 00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:51,080 Speaker 1: But the thing is that if you look at references 412 00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:56,360 Speaker 1: to save the Children or save our Children on like Twitter, 413 00:28:56,480 --> 00:29:00,160 Speaker 1: the hashtags, and you're also looking for transphobia related stuf up, 414 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:04,040 Speaker 1: you can actually start to see that crossover happening before 415 00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:08,480 Speaker 1: the original que drops happened, Right, Yeah, I found I 416 00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:13,560 Speaker 1: found tweets that were connecting trans inclusion education in schools 417 00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:16,880 Speaker 1: to pedophilia and using the save the children hashtag. In 418 00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:20,720 Speaker 1: August of two thousand seventeen, the que drops hadn't started yet. 419 00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:25,960 Speaker 1: So and this is something this pattern continues to happen, right, 420 00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:31,120 Speaker 1: There were also multiple UM you know, tweets or Facebook 421 00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:33,840 Speaker 1: posts or whatever that would start to use things like 422 00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:37,080 Speaker 1: save the Children, Save our Children, wake Up America, and 423 00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:41,400 Speaker 1: stuff like that before you would have the big scale 424 00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:44,480 Speaker 1: takeover by Q and on when things were starting to 425 00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:49,480 Speaker 1: get really popular, because the save the Children thing really 426 00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:55,480 Speaker 1: went viral in the summer of but you could still 427 00:29:55,520 --> 00:30:01,840 Speaker 1: see elements of it before that point. Repeatedly out. Another 428 00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:05,160 Speaker 1: early instance of using both save the Children and Wake 429 00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:10,880 Speaker 1: Up America hashtags started happening on UM April. I believe 430 00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:14,280 Speaker 1: that is a two thousand nineteen and bear in mind 431 00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:18,760 Speaker 1: wake Up America UM is a hashtag that's not only 432 00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:23,320 Speaker 1: used by Q and on proponents UM in relation to 433 00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:28,160 Speaker 1: the whole like accelerationism. I'm trying to yet deep state 434 00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:32,680 Speaker 1: stuff UM, but also like Aaron Brewer, one of the 435 00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:36,720 Speaker 1: people that was involved in some of the clinic protests harassments, 436 00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:39,200 Speaker 1: was using that exactly. No, it wasn't just It was 437 00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:41,479 Speaker 1: wasn't just Brewer, it was like both brew It was 438 00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:45,120 Speaker 1: that was the clinic protest that involved both UM partners 439 00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:48,360 Speaker 1: gilthicalk RPC, which Brewer was remember like one of the 440 00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:49,840 Speaker 1: founders of at the time and one of the leaders 441 00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:53,800 Speaker 1: of and Joey Bright's like can't I get a witness? 442 00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:56,920 Speaker 1: Like they teamed up to stage a bunch of clinic 443 00:30:56,960 --> 00:30:59,800 Speaker 1: protests that they used wake up like wag of America 444 00:30:59,880 --> 00:31:01,320 Speaker 1: with one of the slogans that they used in one 445 00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:07,960 Speaker 1: of the hashtags to to to make sure we're getting this. Uh, 446 00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:12,360 Speaker 1: these are protest against clinics that offer gender firm and care. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, 447 00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:18,440 Speaker 1: yeah that um yeah that happened that one, so yeah, 448 00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:23,080 Speaker 1: the way Up America one was in um felt like City, 449 00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:27,080 Speaker 1: New York City and l A. Yeah. And they also, 450 00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:31,120 Speaker 1: I mean speaking of us, they also have used the 451 00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:36,400 Speaker 1: slogan pulled back the curtain um, which has also been 452 00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:41,400 Speaker 1: used by uh like anti choice activists, Like that was 453 00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:44,120 Speaker 1: I remember, like like finding like they used pulled back 454 00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:45,600 Speaker 1: the curtain a lot to be like they what they 455 00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:48,680 Speaker 1: mean is like they're like exposed the evil gender industry. 456 00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:53,440 Speaker 1: But like there's other this like um anti abortion group. 457 00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:55,960 Speaker 1: I'm blanking on which one off the top of my head. 458 00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:58,600 Speaker 1: But they also used that um pulled back the curtain 459 00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:02,080 Speaker 1: to go after planning parent it yeah, which I think 460 00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:06,480 Speaker 1: is like probably like that doesn't in for a direct connection, 461 00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:10,640 Speaker 1: but it seems like that's too much of a coincidence 462 00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:13,040 Speaker 1: in one of the one of the things that I 463 00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:15,720 Speaker 1: really want to stress about this called like what I 464 00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:20,880 Speaker 1: call tan on thing, is that like the seeds for this, 465 00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:24,280 Speaker 1: the cross pollination that we are seeing happening between the 466 00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:27,800 Speaker 1: gender critical movement, Pizza Gate, and Q and on, like 467 00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:32,440 Speaker 1: these were already in place before Q and On formally 468 00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:38,000 Speaker 1: developed as its own phenomenon. This keeps happening. It's you 469 00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:43,400 Speaker 1: can't really like figure out where one particular type of 470 00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:46,720 Speaker 1: rhetoric is necessarily coming from in terms of its source, 471 00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:50,440 Speaker 1: because it just keeps going back and forth repeatedly. People 472 00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:55,680 Speaker 1: are acting like they're coming up with a lot of 473 00:32:55,680 --> 00:33:00,440 Speaker 1: the same ideas together because in the end, in the end, 474 00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:04,520 Speaker 1: they are of the same routs. They are in fundamental 475 00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:07,560 Speaker 1: agreement with each other, whether they're calling themselves different names. 476 00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:11,000 Speaker 1: I think that's that's worrying to me in a lot 477 00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:15,080 Speaker 1: of ways, partly because you know, I mean, this has 478 00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:19,560 Speaker 1: always been something where if you look at the rhetoric 479 00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:23,000 Speaker 1: that these people are spreading, it's like it's explicitly extermination ist, 480 00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:27,400 Speaker 1: Like it's it's you know, like they they're they're storychiatric terrorists, 481 00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:29,440 Speaker 1: like in search of a like a quote unquote load wolf, 482 00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:31,360 Speaker 1: and in a lot of you know, and in the 483 00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:33,280 Speaker 1: in the seventies, I think they were there's there's a 484 00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:37,640 Speaker 1: lot more explicit violence that these people are doing directly, 485 00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:41,520 Speaker 1: and now they're kind of like they're they're they're trying 486 00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:43,920 Speaker 1: to find people who will do their already work for them, 487 00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:46,120 Speaker 1: and there are places where they found them already. We've 488 00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:48,960 Speaker 1: seen this in Mexico and in the US. The people 489 00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:52,760 Speaker 1: who they seem to be recruiting are people who are 490 00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:55,240 Speaker 1: extremely dangerous. We've we've seen q and on people have 491 00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:59,320 Speaker 1: killed enormous numbers of people. Um, you know, we've there's 492 00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:02,160 Speaker 1: a long history of of abortion clinic bombings and people 493 00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:03,880 Speaker 1: getting assassinated for that. I mean, I think, you know, 494 00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:07,200 Speaker 1: one of the connections that I've been sort of like 495 00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:12,040 Speaker 1: looking at is the extent to which this stuff is 496 00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:14,160 Speaker 1: connected to the Atlantis shooting. Because if you if you 497 00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:17,440 Speaker 1: look at the stuff, the Atlanta shooter believes it's you know, 498 00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:19,960 Speaker 1: like he's in this like in the same sort of 499 00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:25,280 Speaker 1: Christian patriarchal project, and his thing is specifically about sex workers. 500 00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:28,880 Speaker 1: But hey, look if you look at yeah, but not 501 00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:31,200 Speaker 1: particularly Asian sex workers. And you know, if if if 502 00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:32,800 Speaker 1: you if you look at the anti trafficking groups, you 503 00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:34,560 Speaker 1: look at the Christian anti trafficking groups, and you look 504 00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:37,160 Speaker 1: at the vent diagram with them and the Turfs, it's like, oh, 505 00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:46,200 Speaker 1: and people are involved, yeah, particular world, and yeah, there's 506 00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:49,120 Speaker 1: there's this kind of vice closing in on trans people 507 00:34:49,160 --> 00:34:52,800 Speaker 1: were on the one hand, you have these people attempting 508 00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:55,800 Speaker 1: to employ the violence of the state, and on the 509 00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:59,280 Speaker 1: other hand you have this sort of story giatric terrorism, 510 00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:03,640 Speaker 1: where are attempting to incite violence by sort of individuals. 511 00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:05,239 Speaker 1: And then also I mean, I think I think there's 512 00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:06,839 Speaker 1: you know, there's sort of there's sort of two forms 513 00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:09,000 Speaker 1: of this, right there's the explicit people who are explicitly 514 00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:11,279 Speaker 1: like quote unquote political right of you have your sort 515 00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:15,000 Speaker 1: of like ideological street fascist. You have like you know, 516 00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:18,560 Speaker 1: you have your people with baseball bast covered and barred wire. 517 00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:23,720 Speaker 1: But then you also have the stuff that's been fueling 518 00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:27,319 Speaker 1: antiation violence where it's not necessarily like you know, there 519 00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:29,959 Speaker 1: is this is an organization that like Hayes Asian people, 520 00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:33,240 Speaker 1: it's we will just sort of passively increase the rhetoric 521 00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:36,560 Speaker 1: until the level of violence increases. Yeah. Yeah, it kind 522 00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:38,359 Speaker 1: of got like you've got the street fash and then 523 00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:41,120 Speaker 1: you've got the intellectual fash. Yeah. Well, and and I 524 00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:43,280 Speaker 1: think but I think also there's there's another like if 525 00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:45,319 Speaker 1: it was just those people, I think it'd be less bad. 526 00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:48,520 Speaker 1: But but there's also just the way in which just 527 00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:53,200 Speaker 1: random people who are encountering this become very quickly radicalized 528 00:35:53,239 --> 00:35:55,839 Speaker 1: and it becomes part of sort of I mean, in church, 529 00:35:55,920 --> 00:35:57,400 Speaker 1: roubic violence has always been part of the sort of 530 00:35:57,440 --> 00:35:59,800 Speaker 1: background violence in the same way that anti black and 531 00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:02,080 Speaker 1: to I mean, you know, okay, the level of anti 532 00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:05,480 Speaker 1: black violence is much higher, but like the level of 533 00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:08,520 Speaker 1: violence against black trans people in particular, and the level 534 00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:10,400 Speaker 1: of anti asition violence we've been seeing that has just 535 00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:13,160 Speaker 1: sort of it's just a part of the background violence 536 00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:18,000 Speaker 1: of American society, and that the levels of those things, 537 00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:21,759 Speaker 1: the more this rhetoric gets circulated and the more this 538 00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:25,360 Speaker 1: activism happens, that background level of violence increases, And that 539 00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:28,840 Speaker 1: to me is also terrifying because it means like it's 540 00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:31,439 Speaker 1: not just sort of like fascist that you can track, 541 00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:34,480 Speaker 1: it's just someone on the street. Yeah, and like yeah, 542 00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:37,799 Speaker 1: they're just sort of like trying to like like associate 543 00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:42,399 Speaker 1: like well, I mean a lot of the like yeah 544 00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:47,160 Speaker 1: that like people like like Feli and Aaron m Alex 545 00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:49,320 Speaker 1: their and the Gender Mapper and Joey Brands uff like that, 546 00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:52,719 Speaker 1: like they're they're hardcore like elimination as like they're like 547 00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:55,400 Speaker 1: they're over and over. There could be no compromised. And 548 00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:58,719 Speaker 1: I would also especially like anti fascist networks to pay 549 00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:02,480 Speaker 1: more attention to it, as you know, the solidarity with 550 00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:08,440 Speaker 1: trans people is just as important as solidarity with like 551 00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:12,400 Speaker 1: racial and ethnic minorities when it comes to combating fact, right, 552 00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:15,080 Speaker 1: especially since like there are a number of us that 553 00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:19,920 Speaker 1: are in multiple categories, so like let's all work together 554 00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:24,040 Speaker 1: and try to like you know, be proactive about combating 555 00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:30,080 Speaker 1: the threat. Right. So my my tan on Um collections, 556 00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:33,400 Speaker 1: I guess like I only have two reports on it 557 00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:37,560 Speaker 1: so far because getting into the full detail is just 558 00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:43,080 Speaker 1: it is a lengthy project, and I keep getting distracted 559 00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:49,759 Speaker 1: by by the conversion therapy stuff. There's so much stuff 560 00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:52,239 Speaker 1: to research, and there's like we're like two people and 561 00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:58,880 Speaker 1: and yeah, anyway, so ever, in terms of finding that 562 00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:05,120 Speaker 1: like the original kind of like broader views of tn 563 00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:08,200 Speaker 1: on both like what it is in terms of like 564 00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:11,040 Speaker 1: the one oh one kind of stuff, and also like 565 00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:14,279 Speaker 1: the timeline of where it came from. You can find 566 00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:17,840 Speaker 1: it on Health Liberation Now dot com. We have a 567 00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:20,960 Speaker 1: little tap there that has like analysis and then if 568 00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:23,600 Speaker 1: you go down to key issues, you can find a 569 00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:26,640 Speaker 1: tn on tag there right and it'll have that stuff 570 00:38:26,719 --> 00:38:30,480 Speaker 1: in there. This has been a thing that throughout this 571 00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:33,960 Speaker 1: entire series, which is that most of the information on 572 00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:36,120 Speaker 1: this stuff has been compiled by a very small number 573 00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:39,279 Speaker 1: of trans people, and that cannot stay the states of 574 00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:42,920 Speaker 1: this because there are just not enough trans people and 575 00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:48,200 Speaker 1: they are extremely overworked. Yeah, and if that's a project 576 00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:52,040 Speaker 1: that you can take up, please do that, Yes, please, yes, 577 00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:56,120 Speaker 1: hands on deck, I'll hands on back. Yeah, because the 578 00:38:56,400 --> 00:38:59,200 Speaker 1: seriousness of this is such that if you want there 579 00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:03,319 Speaker 1: to be trans people living in a way that does 580 00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:08,960 Speaker 1: not actively destroy them, you have to act now. Yeah. Basically, yeah, 581 00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:11,840 Speaker 1: this has been It could Happen here a product of 582 00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:16,840 Speaker 1: cool Zone Media. Suppress your local turfs before it's too late, Goodbye. 583 00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:24,080 Speaker 1: It could happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media. 584 00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:26,960 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 585 00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:29,120 Speaker 1: cool Zone media dot com or check us out on 586 00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:31,680 Speaker 1: the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you 587 00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:34,560 Speaker 1: listen to podcasts, you can find sources for It could 588 00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:37,480 Speaker 1: happen here, Updated monthly at cool Zone media dot com 589 00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:39,480 Speaker 1: slash sources. Thanks for listening.