1 00:00:01,280 --> 00:00:04,320 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:14,640 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio, Hello and Happy Friday. I'm Holly Fry and 3 00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:18,119 Speaker 1: I'm Tracy V. Wilson. As we said, I had John 4 00:00:18,120 --> 00:00:21,360 Speaker 1: Perlin on the show to talk about trees and the 5 00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:25,840 Speaker 1: port in the survival of humans throughout the years. But 6 00:00:25,960 --> 00:00:29,600 Speaker 1: I also had an experienced recently which I'm gonna out 7 00:00:29,680 --> 00:00:32,680 Speaker 1: myself as very nerdy in a specific kind of way, 8 00:00:33,680 --> 00:00:36,000 Speaker 1: where I was at a company event and we were 9 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:38,680 Speaker 1: in this really beautiful place with this gorgeous courtyard and 10 00:00:38,760 --> 00:00:42,040 Speaker 1: this beautiful tree growing over it, and one of our 11 00:00:42,080 --> 00:00:44,040 Speaker 1: colleagues had said to me, like, man, I would give 12 00:00:44,040 --> 00:00:45,879 Speaker 1: anything to just climb that tree right now. And I 13 00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:48,279 Speaker 1: was like, not me. And he looked at me like 14 00:00:48,320 --> 00:00:51,080 Speaker 1: I had said, by the way I eat babies, like 15 00:00:51,120 --> 00:00:54,520 Speaker 1: I just was like, our trees not alluring. And I 16 00:00:54,560 --> 00:00:55,920 Speaker 1: was like, I have never climbed a tree, and I 17 00:00:55,920 --> 00:00:59,240 Speaker 1: have no desires. Tracy, are you a tree climbing child? 18 00:01:00,440 --> 00:01:03,640 Speaker 1: We had. It's probably clear to long term listeners of 19 00:01:03,680 --> 00:01:07,959 Speaker 1: the show that my mother was an anxious person. She's 20 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:12,040 Speaker 1: less anxious now, but an anxious person. So my mom 21 00:01:12,120 --> 00:01:16,560 Speaker 1: had specific rules about like how large the tree branch 22 00:01:16,680 --> 00:01:20,000 Speaker 1: could be if we were going to put our weight 23 00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:23,600 Speaker 1: on it, and so we had because she didn't want 24 00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:26,280 Speaker 1: us to step onto a branch that couldn't hold our weight. 25 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:29,920 Speaker 1: A lot of my mom's anxieties, honestly, were very sensible, 26 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:32,840 Speaker 1: but like, there were a number of things that we 27 00:01:32,880 --> 00:01:35,280 Speaker 1: had a lot of rules about. And so there were 28 00:01:35,319 --> 00:01:38,680 Speaker 1: several trees in our yard that we could climb into, 29 00:01:38,840 --> 00:01:43,199 Speaker 1: but we could not really climb high in them, and 30 00:01:43,480 --> 00:01:46,280 Speaker 1: I like it's I would not say I've had a 31 00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:48,960 Speaker 1: pastime of climbing trees, but like that was a thing 32 00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:51,600 Speaker 1: that I did a lot as a kid, and then 33 00:01:51,680 --> 00:01:55,040 Speaker 1: like even into college. I went to the University of 34 00:01:55,040 --> 00:01:57,840 Speaker 1: North Carolina at Asheville, which is immediately adjacent to a 35 00:01:57,880 --> 00:01:59,840 Speaker 1: botanical garden that had lots of, you know, a couple 36 00:01:59,840 --> 00:02:02,760 Speaker 1: of trees that were pretty good climbing trees. And so 37 00:02:03,920 --> 00:02:05,480 Speaker 1: I have not tried to do such a thing in 38 00:02:05,560 --> 00:02:08,200 Speaker 1: many years. Though, yeah, I'm not a tree climber. We 39 00:02:09,200 --> 00:02:11,720 Speaker 1: I lived in the Pacific Northwest when I was very young, 40 00:02:12,120 --> 00:02:14,600 Speaker 1: and I remember we had a tree that had a 41 00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:18,160 Speaker 1: branch that hung very low that we would swing from 42 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:24,639 Speaker 1: that branch once to moderate disaster but I just I 43 00:02:25,360 --> 00:02:28,000 Speaker 1: had a weird anxiety from the time I was a kid. 44 00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:31,760 Speaker 1: I don't necessarily have this anxiety now I'm more relaxed 45 00:02:31,760 --> 00:02:33,480 Speaker 1: about it, but I still don't want to climb a tree, 46 00:02:33,639 --> 00:02:36,040 Speaker 1: which was that I was convinced as a child that 47 00:02:36,120 --> 00:02:38,920 Speaker 1: if I did so, I would like get up to 48 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:41,160 Speaker 1: a point and all of a sudden, from under the bark, 49 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:44,000 Speaker 1: a million bugs would come out and get Okay, Sure, 50 00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:47,280 Speaker 1: I'm less fussy about bugs now than I used to be, 51 00:02:47,360 --> 00:02:49,400 Speaker 1: but I still am, Like there's a part of like 52 00:02:49,639 --> 00:02:53,480 Speaker 1: my base brain function that's still like bugs will climb 53 00:02:53,480 --> 00:02:59,040 Speaker 1: out and get all that. Do you remember that, Eddie? 54 00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:02,280 Speaker 1: Is our routine about running, jumping, climbing tree tree and makeup, 55 00:03:02,360 --> 00:03:05,240 Speaker 1: putting on makeup when I get up there. That was 56 00:03:05,280 --> 00:03:07,359 Speaker 1: me in a lot of ways as a kid, Like 57 00:03:07,400 --> 00:03:09,680 Speaker 1: I would I would climb up the tree and then 58 00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:11,680 Speaker 1: play with my dolls up there. Or I would climb 59 00:03:11,760 --> 00:03:13,880 Speaker 1: up the tree and then like I had this um 60 00:03:15,320 --> 00:03:18,800 Speaker 1: this dog that had a radio in its belly, and 61 00:03:18,840 --> 00:03:20,640 Speaker 1: I would sit there and listen to the radio and 62 00:03:20,680 --> 00:03:24,160 Speaker 1: like brush the dog's hair. That was kind of stuff 63 00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:26,520 Speaker 1: that I did. Yeah, I just did that on the 64 00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:32,040 Speaker 1: ground or indoors um. I mean, I wasn't like a 65 00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:34,880 Speaker 1: completely indoor child by any means. But I don't know 66 00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:39,240 Speaker 1: the tree thing. I don't I'm not really scared of heights, 67 00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:42,040 Speaker 1: so I don't think that was a factor. I don't know, 68 00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:44,560 Speaker 1: And I never think of myself as particularly prissy, but 69 00:03:44,600 --> 00:03:48,080 Speaker 1: I was concerned that I would get just irretrievably dirty 70 00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:53,160 Speaker 1: in a tree. Yeah, I was scared of heights, but 71 00:03:53,320 --> 00:03:57,880 Speaker 1: the trees in our yard, like the restrictions on how 72 00:03:57,920 --> 00:04:01,840 Speaker 1: big the branches could be, like they were smaller than 73 00:04:01,880 --> 00:04:03,880 Speaker 1: that before I would be high enough to be like, 74 00:04:03,920 --> 00:04:08,360 Speaker 1: oh it's too high. I'm scared, right, So yeah, I 75 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:10,920 Speaker 1: to talk about my interview with John a little bit 76 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:14,160 Speaker 1: now that we've established our baseline relationship personally with train. 77 00:04:17,120 --> 00:04:20,080 Speaker 1: It was so interesting to me there was so much, 78 00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:22,080 Speaker 1: I mean, we talked about it in that interview that 79 00:04:22,520 --> 00:04:24,799 Speaker 1: so much has happened since he first wrote the book 80 00:04:25,760 --> 00:04:29,880 Speaker 1: that really informs the history of trees and civilization, and 81 00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:35,239 Speaker 1: like the rise of Archaeopterus being what's considered the first 82 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:40,479 Speaker 1: modern tree, and everything literally coming off of that branching 83 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:42,599 Speaker 1: from it. If you'll forgive a really crappy pun because 84 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:47,839 Speaker 1: I don't love puns. It's so interesting how much science 85 00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:50,200 Speaker 1: can of It was indicative to me and gave me 86 00:04:50,240 --> 00:04:51,960 Speaker 1: a moment of pause later on to think about how 87 00:04:52,040 --> 00:04:56,360 Speaker 1: much science has evolved just in the last couple of decades, 88 00:04:57,080 --> 00:05:01,159 Speaker 1: that we have so much deeper understanding of things. This 89 00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:03,359 Speaker 1: is also a moment that I had recently on a 90 00:05:03,400 --> 00:05:06,960 Speaker 1: flight where I was watching Bill Nye's masterclass and he 91 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:09,440 Speaker 1: was talking about new ways that things have been tested 92 00:05:09,480 --> 00:05:12,640 Speaker 1: in the environment and regarding climate change, and how like 93 00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:16,360 Speaker 1: there it's They're just there's so much information that we 94 00:05:16,440 --> 00:05:18,960 Speaker 1: have now that we didn't even have ten years ago 95 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:22,760 Speaker 1: on how the environment is being changed by what people do, 96 00:05:22,880 --> 00:05:26,960 Speaker 1: And it was really, really wonderful. This interview was so fun, 97 00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:29,080 Speaker 1: and I kind of felt bad John would have talked 98 00:05:29,120 --> 00:05:31,800 Speaker 1: for much longer. I was literally trying to prep to 99 00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:33,360 Speaker 1: get on a flight, or I would have sat here 100 00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:37,120 Speaker 1: for a long time because he just saws such a 101 00:05:37,279 --> 00:05:41,760 Speaker 1: long career of study of these topics, and also, as 102 00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:44,799 Speaker 1: we mentioned at the end, you know his work studying 103 00:05:45,080 --> 00:05:49,600 Speaker 1: the history of our interaction with solar energy. So I 104 00:05:51,320 --> 00:05:53,719 Speaker 1: my apologies to him that I couldn't stay for another 105 00:05:53,760 --> 00:05:57,200 Speaker 1: four hours because I would hear it all and it 106 00:05:57,240 --> 00:06:00,680 Speaker 1: was very funny. He's always written up as a physicist 107 00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:03,320 Speaker 1: and having been a physics professor, and I didn't realize that, 108 00:06:03,440 --> 00:06:06,120 Speaker 1: of course, was in the interview that that was secondary 109 00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:09,400 Speaker 1: and he had started his ecological work first, and then 110 00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:15,640 Speaker 1: that had led him to physics, not the other way around. Which, Yeah, 111 00:06:15,680 --> 00:06:19,960 Speaker 1: can we return to puns for a minute. Yeah. Occasionally 112 00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:22,080 Speaker 1: we will say something on the show and somebody will ask, 113 00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:23,840 Speaker 1: why didn't you say and then it's like the really 114 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:28,680 Speaker 1: obvious pun, and it's the really obvious puns are like 115 00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:32,680 Speaker 1: the my least favorite puns. And we're recording this right 116 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:35,880 Speaker 1: after recording the roller Coaster episode, and I would just 117 00:06:35,920 --> 00:06:39,560 Speaker 1: like to say there were so many of the same 118 00:06:39,720 --> 00:06:44,320 Speaker 1: puns in the research for that. Oh yeah, like please, please, 119 00:06:44,400 --> 00:06:48,240 Speaker 1: can we not anymore? And I intentionally wrote the outline 120 00:06:48,520 --> 00:06:52,800 Speaker 1: with no puns about roller Coaster, real blessings upon you. Yeah. 121 00:06:52,839 --> 00:06:55,720 Speaker 1: I don't know why I don't like puns. They make 122 00:06:55,800 --> 00:07:00,279 Speaker 1: me angry irrationally. Yeah. I feel like a really ever 123 00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:04,400 Speaker 1: pun can be great. Yeah, but a lot of puns 124 00:07:04,440 --> 00:07:08,839 Speaker 1: are not. They're clunky. Yeah. I did have a moment. 125 00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:11,960 Speaker 1: I was having dinner with my husband recently and I 126 00:07:12,040 --> 00:07:13,640 Speaker 1: made a punny joke and he just looked at me 127 00:07:13,640 --> 00:07:16,960 Speaker 1: because he loves them and was like so much. I 128 00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:20,360 Speaker 1: was like, can you only get one? Yeah, see again 129 00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:23,600 Speaker 1: in ten years. On the pun front, they're also like, 130 00:07:23,640 --> 00:07:27,360 Speaker 1: I know, I know folks who are just great at 131 00:07:27,400 --> 00:07:31,880 Speaker 1: having a clever pun in their mind. And that's just 132 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:34,920 Speaker 1: that's not how my mind works at all. That's not 133 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:39,920 Speaker 1: the kind of language that my brain is tuned to. Yeah, 134 00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:42,600 Speaker 1: I don't, I don't know. I've never liked them. And 135 00:07:42,680 --> 00:07:45,880 Speaker 1: I remember the first time that I was like angry 136 00:07:45,920 --> 00:07:48,280 Speaker 1: that someone thought I was making a pun when I wasn't. 137 00:07:48,840 --> 00:07:55,720 Speaker 1: I was in eighth grade, don't know. Okay, I was 138 00:07:55,800 --> 00:07:58,800 Speaker 1: in eighth grade and I had taken a science test 139 00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:02,640 Speaker 1: and my science teacher, mister Smith, a pair of brothers 140 00:08:03,160 --> 00:08:06,320 Speaker 1: who taught science at our school who were both great teachers, 141 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:10,800 Speaker 1: had said like, hey, you can't have any notes out 142 00:08:11,640 --> 00:08:14,080 Speaker 1: during even if you finish your test and turn it in, 143 00:08:14,480 --> 00:08:18,120 Speaker 1: you can't have any notes out because like, I don't 144 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:21,000 Speaker 1: want any other students accidentally looking at, you know, your notes. 145 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:23,640 Speaker 1: And I was looking at a piece of sheet music 146 00:08:23,720 --> 00:08:26,920 Speaker 1: that I was studying for my band class, and I 147 00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:29,120 Speaker 1: said you would not count these as notes, would you? 148 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:31,200 Speaker 1: And he was like, huh because their notes on the page, 149 00:08:31,200 --> 00:08:33,240 Speaker 1: And I was like, shut up, mister Smith, like I 150 00:08:33,280 --> 00:08:39,640 Speaker 1: was instantly angry about it for no logical, complete irrational 151 00:08:40,320 --> 00:08:45,320 Speaker 1: I love this story, I really do. It stuck with 152 00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:48,240 Speaker 1: me all these years. I think it was eighth grade. 153 00:08:49,240 --> 00:08:52,920 Speaker 1: I had mister Smith one or the other a couple 154 00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:56,760 Speaker 1: different times in school, because I think I may be misremembering. 155 00:08:56,840 --> 00:09:01,200 Speaker 1: One definitely taught in my junior high and one may 156 00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:05,800 Speaker 1: have taught like we switched over from one system of 157 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:08,240 Speaker 1: class schedule to another, and I think I had one 158 00:09:08,280 --> 00:09:12,040 Speaker 1: of them twice. But anyway, they were honestly both wonderful 159 00:09:12,040 --> 00:09:18,080 Speaker 1: teachers and very kind and dealt with me being irrationally 160 00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:20,600 Speaker 1: freaked out about him suggesting I would make a pun. 161 00:09:30,160 --> 00:09:33,200 Speaker 1: This week, we talked about the autobiographies of Jenny June, 162 00:09:33,280 --> 00:09:39,240 Speaker 1: who also used the names Ralph Werther and Earl Lynde Man. 163 00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:42,000 Speaker 1: I had such a hard time with this episode because 164 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:46,200 Speaker 1: so many of the things that she wrote about echo 165 00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:49,880 Speaker 1: the things people are saying now about what it feels 166 00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:55,040 Speaker 1: like to be forced to detransition because the law in 167 00:09:55,120 --> 00:09:59,400 Speaker 1: your state is banning your necessary medical care or because 168 00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:03,199 Speaker 1: you're insurance has decided not to cover it anymore. So much. 169 00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:06,040 Speaker 1: I was just so angry and upset the whole time 170 00:10:06,080 --> 00:10:09,200 Speaker 1: that I worked on this. Yeah, it's super hard. It's 171 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:14,840 Speaker 1: so interesting to me to read through this, and other 172 00:10:14,880 --> 00:10:19,320 Speaker 1: than changes in language that we talked about as like 173 00:10:19,400 --> 00:10:23,920 Speaker 1: the terminology has evolved, this could have been written today, 174 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:27,360 Speaker 1: So much of it could have been written today. Yes, yeah, 175 00:10:27,400 --> 00:10:28,920 Speaker 1: I think there are a lot of different folks who 176 00:10:28,920 --> 00:10:33,880 Speaker 1: can see their own lives reflected in Jenny June's life. 177 00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:36,240 Speaker 1: Like as I was reading this, I read the accounts 178 00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:40,000 Speaker 1: of like a cis gender gay man who had discovered 179 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:46,120 Speaker 1: this autobiography when he was young and had never like 180 00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:50,040 Speaker 1: read a first person an account of a historical figure 181 00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:53,960 Speaker 1: who was like somewhere in the LGBTQ spectrum, and like 182 00:10:53,960 --> 00:10:56,400 Speaker 1: how much that meant to him as a gay man. 183 00:10:56,520 --> 00:10:59,960 Speaker 1: And then I have read other people who are tramped 184 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:04,840 Speaker 1: and have had similar experiences reading this for the first 185 00:11:04,880 --> 00:11:07,240 Speaker 1: time and realizing that like people have been saying this 186 00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:12,840 Speaker 1: pretty clearly for more than a century in the United States, 187 00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:18,560 Speaker 1: that it feels awful to be forced to live as 188 00:11:18,600 --> 00:11:20,800 Speaker 1: a gender that is not what you feel is true 189 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:26,439 Speaker 1: in yourself. When we were recording this, I had intentionally 190 00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:28,560 Speaker 1: written it so that I was the person explaining the 191 00:11:28,640 --> 00:11:33,760 Speaker 1: pronoun choice, because that was like my choice. I originally 192 00:11:33,880 --> 00:11:39,720 Speaker 1: had plans to follow the example of Channing Gerard Joseph because, like, 193 00:11:40,200 --> 00:11:44,520 Speaker 1: before having read these works, I was like, this explanation 194 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:49,520 Speaker 1: aligns with how we generally handle these decisions and how 195 00:11:49,559 --> 00:11:51,800 Speaker 1: we generally talk about things. And then as I was 196 00:11:51,880 --> 00:11:53,959 Speaker 1: reading it, and I was reading all these stories about 197 00:11:53,960 --> 00:11:57,880 Speaker 1: like wetting her pants because going to the boy's bathroom 198 00:11:57,920 --> 00:12:00,760 Speaker 1: was too traumatic, I was like, I can't. I can't 199 00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:03,600 Speaker 1: use he him pronounced for you. That feels bad and wrong. 200 00:12:04,520 --> 00:12:08,280 Speaker 1: So there were a couple of things that I sort 201 00:12:08,280 --> 00:12:10,120 Speaker 1: of saved to talk about on the behind the scenes. 202 00:12:10,160 --> 00:12:13,240 Speaker 1: One Channing Gerard Joseph. If you're like, why does this 203 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:15,480 Speaker 1: name ring a bell, I feel like you have talked 204 00:12:15,480 --> 00:12:18,319 Speaker 1: about this person before. Channing Gerard Joseph is the person 205 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:22,880 Speaker 1: who wrote the biography of William Dorsey Swan, who has 206 00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:24,760 Speaker 1: come up on the show a couple of times before. 207 00:12:24,800 --> 00:12:26,920 Speaker 1: As far as I know, that book has not come 208 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:29,720 Speaker 1: into print yet, and I don't know what the status 209 00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:34,000 Speaker 1: of it is, But there was an article about William 210 00:12:34,040 --> 00:12:36,840 Speaker 1: Dorsey Swan that went viral a couple of years back, 211 00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:43,120 Speaker 1: somebody who is sometimes described as like the first drag queen, 212 00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:48,400 Speaker 1: was enslaved from birth and then came to play this 213 00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:53,040 Speaker 1: like very prominent part of like the drag and ball 214 00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:59,360 Speaker 1: culture of the time that they were living. So I 215 00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:02,240 Speaker 1: am still eager for that book to come out, and 216 00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:05,080 Speaker 1: I'm not sure what the status of it is. The 217 00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:08,800 Speaker 1: Other Thing is or Another Thing is. I had a 218 00:13:09,679 --> 00:13:12,080 Speaker 1: piece in here from one of the books that I 219 00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:15,840 Speaker 1: wound up taking out because it I was trying to 220 00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:18,559 Speaker 1: make sure that this episode came in. We have some 221 00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:21,280 Speaker 1: guidelines at our job about like how long episodes are, 222 00:13:21,280 --> 00:13:25,240 Speaker 1: and I was trying to stay within those guidelines, and 223 00:13:25,960 --> 00:13:32,080 Speaker 1: I just wanted to read Jenny June's discussion of Walt Whitman. Yes, 224 00:13:32,240 --> 00:13:38,239 Speaker 1: please quote Walt Whitman stands foremost among American and regines, 225 00:13:38,440 --> 00:13:41,400 Speaker 1: but he was of the mild type. Many passages of 226 00:13:41,520 --> 00:13:44,800 Speaker 1: leaves of grass and drum taps exist as proof. He 227 00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:48,560 Speaker 1: never married, although closely pursued by even wealthy women desiring 228 00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:51,280 Speaker 1: him as a husband. In middle age, he spent his 229 00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:54,520 Speaker 1: hours for recreation in the society of adolescence, as I 230 00:13:54,559 --> 00:13:57,920 Speaker 1: was informed by Whitman's so called adopted son, that is, 231 00:13:57,960 --> 00:14:00,640 Speaker 1: he courted them as a normal man, or it's a woman. 232 00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:04,640 Speaker 1: Chance made me intimate with the adopted son in his seventies. 233 00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:08,520 Speaker 1: All three of us happens to belong to New York City, 234 00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:11,600 Speaker 1: So I really I want to read some kind of 235 00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:13,760 Speaker 1: like novel or for there to be a play or 236 00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:17,840 Speaker 1: something about Jenny June and Peter Doyle, who I'm assuming 237 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:20,320 Speaker 1: is who Jenny Dune is talking about here, which is 238 00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:23,160 Speaker 1: who Walt Whitman spent like the latter part of his 239 00:14:23,240 --> 00:14:28,240 Speaker 1: life with. I think I think that's who's being described here. 240 00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:33,640 Speaker 1: I was really kind of entranced by this whole kind 241 00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:37,000 Speaker 1: of name drop of all. And by the way, Walt 242 00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:41,400 Speaker 1: Whitman's adopted son I've hung out with before, this of 243 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:44,520 Speaker 1: course all makes me think of Bram Stoker, who, oh yeah, 244 00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:46,800 Speaker 1: as we talked about, was kind of in love with 245 00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:50,200 Speaker 1: Walt Whitman from Afar and wrote him that very raw 246 00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:54,840 Speaker 1: and kind of um. It's almost embarrassing to read it 247 00:14:54,880 --> 00:14:57,600 Speaker 1: because it's so emotionally raw, like you feel like you're 248 00:14:57,600 --> 00:15:02,560 Speaker 1: eavesdropping on someone letter about how he's not very attractive, 249 00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:05,760 Speaker 1: but he is strong and really loves what Whitman And 250 00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:09,720 Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, if he could meet up with these two, yeah, 251 00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:12,800 Speaker 1: what a wild time. They might have a great party. Maybe, 252 00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:19,880 Speaker 1: although since bram Stoker was very repressed, probably not. Uh, 253 00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:23,240 Speaker 1: while Whitman, I have the impression not very repressed. No. 254 00:15:32,760 --> 00:15:37,440 Speaker 1: So anyway, I got the impression from reading these autobiographies 255 00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:42,720 Speaker 1: that by the time she wrote the autobiographies Jenny June 256 00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:47,920 Speaker 1: felt kind of settled within herself and um, not carrying 257 00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:53,640 Speaker 1: so much shame about herself, to the point that there 258 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:59,520 Speaker 1: are moments in uh, in the introductions and Herzlock's introductions, um, 259 00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:04,800 Speaker 1: where he's he seems kind of scandalized that she could 260 00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:09,720 Speaker 1: feel pride about anything. Right, But so much of the 261 00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:14,960 Speaker 1: books relates times that she did feel so much shame 262 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:17,400 Speaker 1: and stigma that it's like, it's hard to come away 263 00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:21,240 Speaker 1: with the sense that her life ever did become just 264 00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:25,480 Speaker 1: a little bit a little bit less full of just 265 00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:30,480 Speaker 1: feeling so ashamed about her life. Right, makes sense. I'm 266 00:16:30,480 --> 00:16:35,440 Speaker 1: glad you mentioned her song because, you know, in talking 267 00:16:35,480 --> 00:16:40,680 Speaker 1: about his introduction in his commentary on it, it's so 268 00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:44,560 Speaker 1: fascinating to me because in some ways it seems like 269 00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:48,320 Speaker 1: he wanted to be, for lack of a better word, 270 00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:53,200 Speaker 1: something of an ally but was also very bad at it, 271 00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:56,640 Speaker 1: which I think happens a lot still. Yeah, right, Like, 272 00:16:56,720 --> 00:17:00,440 Speaker 1: that's the tricky thing about an outsider's ally ship is 273 00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:03,320 Speaker 1: that often like you mess up because you just do 274 00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:07,120 Speaker 1: not understand the experience and you're trying to like parse 275 00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:10,840 Speaker 1: it through your yeah, your personal lens of how you 276 00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:14,720 Speaker 1: understand the world, and that's not that's part of the problem. Yeah. Well, 277 00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:16,800 Speaker 1: and the part of what he wrote that I feel 278 00:17:16,840 --> 00:17:22,600 Speaker 1: like is really laudable given the time, especially was how 279 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:26,600 Speaker 1: definitively he was, like, these are just people who are 280 00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:29,560 Speaker 1: trying to live their lives and they're not hurting anybody. 281 00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:35,320 Speaker 1: He even dispels the idea that there is a contagion involved, 282 00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:40,040 Speaker 1: that like somehow people like Jenny June would recruit other 283 00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:44,280 Speaker 1: people and that like is a damaging stereotype and falsehood 284 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:46,280 Speaker 1: that like still exists today, that there's some kind of 285 00:17:46,359 --> 00:17:50,679 Speaker 1: contagion that's causing people to be trans definitively was like, no, 286 00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:56,359 Speaker 1: like this is inborn in this person, and the people 287 00:17:57,119 --> 00:18:00,840 Speaker 1: who we're talking about like don't deserve to be harassed, 288 00:18:00,920 --> 00:18:05,000 Speaker 1: don't deserve to be murdered, do deserve to live full 289 00:18:05,080 --> 00:18:10,240 Speaker 1: lives without being you know, stigmatized or imprisoned or driven 290 00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:12,399 Speaker 1: to suicide, But at the same time was like, I 291 00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:15,720 Speaker 1: think it's gross though, was sort of his undertone of 292 00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:19,879 Speaker 1: the whole thing, and was really I don't know, loud 293 00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:25,400 Speaker 1: and making sure everyone knew that he thought it was gross. Right. 294 00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:28,080 Speaker 1: It reminds me a little bit of have you ever 295 00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:33,399 Speaker 1: had that friend who is very I mean I have 296 00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:38,040 Speaker 1: had definitely straight male friends who are comfortable having gay 297 00:18:38,080 --> 00:18:42,679 Speaker 1: friends feel really really compelled to let other people in 298 00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:47,440 Speaker 1: their lives know, but I'm not gay. Yeah, and it's like, dude, 299 00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:52,119 Speaker 1: nobody cares. You're fine. I know you accept these people. 300 00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:54,240 Speaker 1: I don't care about yourself, you know what I mean. 301 00:18:54,920 --> 00:19:02,000 Speaker 1: It feels a little bit like that. Yeah, yeah, uh yeah. 302 00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:04,439 Speaker 1: Before we close out this little behind the scenes, I 303 00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:08,600 Speaker 1: just want to say definitively, like, transgender people are not new. 304 00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:13,720 Speaker 1: We've not by alone. Yeah, we've been talking about people 305 00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:18,440 Speaker 1: who like don't fit within the like gender or sexual 306 00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:23,480 Speaker 1: orientation binary going back way farther than this on the show, 307 00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:27,400 Speaker 1: And this, to me is just such a clear example 308 00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:32,040 Speaker 1: of somebody, you know, even though the term transgender didn't 309 00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:34,560 Speaker 1: exist at the time, and even though there are nuances 310 00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:37,800 Speaker 1: to how she seems to have envisioned her own life, 311 00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:42,359 Speaker 1: like just so clearly saying like, I'm a woman, and 312 00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:45,920 Speaker 1: it feels bad that I have to live as a man. 313 00:19:46,119 --> 00:19:50,359 Speaker 1: Likes it's there and it's been there for more than 314 00:19:50,359 --> 00:19:54,080 Speaker 1: a hundred years. And in a lot of ways, it 315 00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:57,280 Speaker 1: felt like we as a society here in the US, 316 00:19:57,320 --> 00:20:00,800 Speaker 1: we're making progress, and now feels like a lot of 317 00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:03,320 Speaker 1: that progress is being rolled back, and I hate it 318 00:20:03,320 --> 00:20:05,480 Speaker 1: and I'm furious. And there were times and recording this 319 00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:08,760 Speaker 1: that I was crying because I was so mad. So 320 00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:16,400 Speaker 1: I don't call your legislators, Yeah, I um, it's I 321 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:19,360 Speaker 1: kept finding myself thinking about, particularly in the passages where 322 00:20:19,359 --> 00:20:22,919 Speaker 1: she was talking about having to after growing up wearing 323 00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:26,600 Speaker 1: the same you know, clothes as other little kids, which 324 00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:31,000 Speaker 1: is pretty like what we would categorize as feminine, and 325 00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:33,840 Speaker 1: then having to switch to boy clothes and how much 326 00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:38,040 Speaker 1: that was just painful. I started to really think about 327 00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:42,919 Speaker 1: how that division has become greater and greater for a 328 00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:46,040 Speaker 1: long time, right, Like if you go back to my man, 329 00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:51,680 Speaker 1: Louis katurs very problematic, very interesting, like there have been 330 00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:56,000 Speaker 1: times in history where straight men were encouraged to dress 331 00:20:56,040 --> 00:21:00,080 Speaker 1: in very flamboyant and fancy and you know, kind of 332 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:04,240 Speaker 1: feminine ways. Yeah, and yet we have now gotten to 333 00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:08,840 Speaker 1: this point where I mean, I think we're Knockwood, still 334 00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:11,800 Speaker 1: working and fighting for it, shifting out of that kind 335 00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:17,720 Speaker 1: of you know, only binary system of shure masculine and 336 00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:19,800 Speaker 1: feminine style. And I'm like, if we could just all 337 00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:22,119 Speaker 1: get to a point where everybody could wear whatever they wanted, 338 00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:24,479 Speaker 1: that'd be great. It would be amazing, and no one 339 00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:26,719 Speaker 1: would have to feel weird about being put in anything 340 00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:28,480 Speaker 1: because it would be what they wanted to wear. The 341 00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:33,240 Speaker 1: post but yeah, okay, yeah, angle in it from clothing. Yeah, 342 00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:39,400 Speaker 1: so trans rights is what we say. If you want 343 00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:42,119 Speaker 1: to send us a note about this history podcast that 344 00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:45,200 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio dot com, we're all over social media miss in 345 00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:48,919 Speaker 1: History and we'll be back tomorrow for the Saturday classic 346 00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:56,840 Speaker 1: and Monday was something brand new Stuffy. Miss In History 347 00:21:56,880 --> 00:22:00,359 Speaker 1: Class is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcast asks 348 00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:04,399 Speaker 1: from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 349 00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:06,000 Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.