1 00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:06,000 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from how Stuff 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:13,560 Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hey, welcome to stuff to Blow your Mind. 3 00:00:13,560 --> 00:00:18,480 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. Joe listeners. 4 00:00:19,200 --> 00:00:23,079 Speaker 1: Imagine yourself a time traveling wonderer in the sixteenth Citree. 5 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:27,120 Speaker 1: It's a time of horror and wonder, of budding possibilities 6 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:30,280 Speaker 1: for a more informed age, as well uh as pools 7 00:00:30,280 --> 00:00:34,520 Speaker 1: of lingering shadow and superstition. You come to the Monastery 8 00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:38,280 Speaker 1: of Saint Anthony in Eisenheim, near Colmar and what is 9 00:00:38,320 --> 00:00:41,320 Speaker 1: now modern day France. Now what do you expect to find? 10 00:00:41,360 --> 00:00:45,200 Speaker 1: It's such a monastery. How is your education and entertainment 11 00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:48,560 Speaker 1: prepared you for such a place? Pious robed brothers praying 12 00:00:48,840 --> 00:00:52,800 Speaker 1: before elaborate altars, studious monks secluded in their libraries and 13 00:00:52,880 --> 00:00:57,200 Speaker 1: scriptoriums ah. But here you encounter the stinch of illness 14 00:00:57,240 --> 00:01:00,160 Speaker 1: and corruption. You hear the cries of the pain than 15 00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:03,720 Speaker 1: the mad. You find the hospital brothers of Saint Anthony 16 00:01:03,800 --> 00:01:07,920 Speaker 1: as they tirelessly treat victims of plague, skin disease, and 17 00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:12,320 Speaker 1: especially that condition known as Saint Anthony's fire or urgic poisoning. 18 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:14,920 Speaker 1: As you make your way through the monastery, you glimpse 19 00:01:14,920 --> 00:01:19,720 Speaker 1: of blackened limbs, you hear psychotic cries, voices describing hallucination 20 00:01:19,880 --> 00:01:23,760 Speaker 1: straight from some surrealistic vision of hell, and as you 21 00:01:23,880 --> 00:01:27,680 Speaker 1: enter the sanctuary yourself, you glimpse and altar unlike anything 22 00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:33,760 Speaker 1: you've imagined before. Behold the Eisenheim altarpiece of Matthias Grunwald 23 00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:37,040 Speaker 1: in its current configuration. The great folding work of art 24 00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:42,120 Speaker 1: presents a familiar motif, Jesus Christ crucified at Golgotha, but 25 00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:45,840 Speaker 1: it's easily the most grotesque image of Christ you've ever seen. 26 00:01:46,720 --> 00:01:49,960 Speaker 1: You'd be tempted to think it blasphemous, even for Christ's 27 00:01:49,960 --> 00:01:54,000 Speaker 1: skin is dark at times, greenish, gangrenous, covered in sores 28 00:01:54,280 --> 00:01:58,240 Speaker 1: in addition to the familiar wounds of execution. Because this 29 00:01:58,280 --> 00:02:02,080 Speaker 1: work of art, this interpretation of absolute human death and suffering, 30 00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:08,720 Speaker 1: emerges from the ravages of ergotism. Ergotism, so that's going 31 00:02:08,760 --> 00:02:11,360 Speaker 1: to be the subject today. But I've seen this work 32 00:02:11,360 --> 00:02:14,160 Speaker 1: of art you're talking about, You've called attention to it 33 00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:20,320 Speaker 1: before Gruenwald's Diseased Christ, and it looks like something that is, 34 00:02:20,440 --> 00:02:23,720 Speaker 1: as you pointed out, intended to be blasphemous. It looks 35 00:02:23,760 --> 00:02:27,440 Speaker 1: like something from a metal album insert. Like, you know, 36 00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:30,480 Speaker 1: you're flipping through the pages of the CD insert and 37 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:33,840 Speaker 1: it's got a pentagram, and it's got like a you know, 38 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:37,160 Speaker 1: crucified goat with blood everywhere, and then it's got this 39 00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:42,839 Speaker 1: diseased Jesus with with you know, sores and this greenish body. 40 00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:46,120 Speaker 1: It doesn't look like your traditional image of the of 41 00:02:46,160 --> 00:02:49,240 Speaker 1: pious Christ, right, Yeah, it's and it's it's fascinating and 42 00:02:49,240 --> 00:02:51,320 Speaker 1: it it is. When we get into it, you'll see 43 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:54,800 Speaker 1: that it is a very pious image. It was not 44 00:02:54,880 --> 00:02:58,560 Speaker 1: created out of any sense of you know, blasphemous outrage, 45 00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:03,359 Speaker 1: but it does look like zombie Jesus. Yeah, So what 46 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:06,920 Speaker 1: is Ergot And what in the world would something called 47 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:10,240 Speaker 1: Ergot have to do with a diseased Christ from a 48 00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:14,120 Speaker 1: metal album insert? So imagine you're walking through a grain 49 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:18,639 Speaker 1: field with tall stalks of rye all around you, and 50 00:03:18,960 --> 00:03:21,840 Speaker 1: so we're not all that close to the agriculture that 51 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:25,880 Speaker 1: sustains our lives anymore. Rye might actually need some explanation. 52 00:03:25,960 --> 00:03:28,919 Speaker 1: It is a cultivated grass crops, so it's like wheat 53 00:03:29,160 --> 00:03:33,839 Speaker 1: or barley, and we can use rye to make bread's beer, whiskey. 54 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:37,360 Speaker 1: The scientific name of this plant is secale cereal l A. 55 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:40,120 Speaker 1: I think secale and then like cereal with any at 56 00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:44,080 Speaker 1: the end. So you're a body meeting a body coming 57 00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:47,200 Speaker 1: through the rye, and you notice that on some of 58 00:03:47,240 --> 00:03:50,000 Speaker 1: the stalks of the grass of the rye, where the 59 00:03:50,080 --> 00:03:53,560 Speaker 1: little rye grains would normally be poking out of the stalk, 60 00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:59,640 Speaker 1: there are instead these long, dark, purple to black fingers 61 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:05,440 Speaker 1: reaching into the air like twisted, deformed little uh mockery's 62 00:04:05,680 --> 00:04:09,480 Speaker 1: of the seeds that should be in this plant. One 63 00:04:09,480 --> 00:04:12,360 Speaker 1: are these things? Well, each of these little fingers is 64 00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:15,600 Speaker 1: an ergot, or another name for them in science would 65 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:20,279 Speaker 1: be the sclerotium. It's a piece of fungal tissue, so 66 00:04:20,320 --> 00:04:24,440 Speaker 1: it's mushroom in nature fungus, and it grows when the 67 00:04:24,520 --> 00:04:29,080 Speaker 1: grain is infected with the fungus Claviceps perpurea, and that's 68 00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:33,560 Speaker 1: a parasite that infects the ovaries, the female sex organs 69 00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:37,240 Speaker 1: of the plant. In grasses and the host is most 70 00:04:37,279 --> 00:04:40,479 Speaker 1: soften rye, but other grasses and grains can fall victim 71 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:45,080 Speaker 1: to ergot. This is so common in rye that people 72 00:04:45,160 --> 00:04:47,640 Speaker 1: actually thought it was a part of the grain up 73 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:50,560 Speaker 1: until the eighteen fifties when we really began to understand 74 00:04:50,640 --> 00:04:54,120 Speaker 1: the true fungal nature of the ergot, which is something 75 00:04:54,160 --> 00:04:57,000 Speaker 1: to keep in mind as we discussed the problems that 76 00:04:57,000 --> 00:04:59,640 Speaker 1: are mgered from human consumption of ergan. Exactly right. And 77 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:01,840 Speaker 1: so we're gonna get to the human consumption in a minute, 78 00:05:01,839 --> 00:05:04,160 Speaker 1: because that's central to the podcast. But first we should 79 00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:06,800 Speaker 1: actually talk about what this thing is, what does it 80 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:10,960 Speaker 1: due to the plants because nobody, nobody cares about the plants. 81 00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:14,000 Speaker 1: They're the ones that really suffer. So the urga itself, 82 00:05:14,080 --> 00:05:17,760 Speaker 1: what is this thing's little black, purple black finger poking 83 00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:20,920 Speaker 1: up out of the rye stalk. The urg it itself 84 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:24,039 Speaker 1: is what's known as an overwintering structure. It so it's 85 00:05:24,120 --> 00:05:28,560 Speaker 1: this protective architecture that allows the fungus to survive through 86 00:05:28,600 --> 00:05:31,599 Speaker 1: the freezing season and make it to the next stage 87 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:35,800 Speaker 1: in its reproductive cycle. Uh and clavisups produces both sexual 88 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:40,800 Speaker 1: and asexual spores to spread and infect new hosts. When 89 00:05:40,839 --> 00:05:44,520 Speaker 1: the fungal infection cycle begins, you'll often see do forming 90 00:05:44,600 --> 00:05:46,960 Speaker 1: on the ovaries of the host plants. You know where 91 00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:50,600 Speaker 1: where the seed and grain structure is, and this sticky 92 00:05:50,680 --> 00:05:53,320 Speaker 1: residue is a mixture of the plant's own sap and 93 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:58,360 Speaker 1: then a sexually produced fungal spores called canidia. And these 94 00:05:58,400 --> 00:06:01,400 Speaker 1: a sexual spores can in effect other hosts when they're 95 00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:05,240 Speaker 1: spread by physical contact, so on the bodies of insects, 96 00:06:05,400 --> 00:06:08,200 Speaker 1: or even by the splashes of rain drops. I don't 97 00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:11,160 Speaker 1: know if you've seen anything about how some parasites spread 98 00:06:11,160 --> 00:06:13,360 Speaker 1: from plant to plant by the rain. And the rain 99 00:06:13,480 --> 00:06:16,800 Speaker 1: hits the plant, it splashes the parasite everywhere onto the 100 00:06:16,920 --> 00:06:20,960 Speaker 1: plants next to it, So that's one method of transmission. 101 00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:23,800 Speaker 1: But then as the seed head matures, some of it's 102 00:06:23,960 --> 00:06:28,920 Speaker 1: normally healthy grains are replaced by these ergo it's or sclerotia, 103 00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:32,520 Speaker 1: which are designed to keep the fungal parasite alive through 104 00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:36,880 Speaker 1: the cold months. When the spring arrives, the surviving ergot 105 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:41,279 Speaker 1: sprout multiple stromata, which are these stalks with little knobs 106 00:06:41,320 --> 00:06:43,520 Speaker 1: at the end, and they look more like what you 107 00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:45,560 Speaker 1: think of when you hear the word mushroom. There the 108 00:06:45,839 --> 00:06:50,039 Speaker 1: stromata singular stroma produced sexual spores as opposed to the 109 00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:53,839 Speaker 1: a sexual spores produced at the earlier stage called asco spores, 110 00:06:54,040 --> 00:06:56,680 Speaker 1: and once the spores are developed, they get spit out 111 00:06:56,680 --> 00:06:59,599 Speaker 1: into the air to carry on the circle of life 112 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:04,039 Speaker 1: of fungus, and so, like wind driven pollen, they get 113 00:07:04,040 --> 00:07:06,919 Speaker 1: caught in the stigma of other host plants and go 114 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:11,400 Speaker 1: on to infect new grass ovaries. So that's the story 115 00:07:11,520 --> 00:07:14,840 Speaker 1: of Claviceps purpurea. It's not trying to get into you. 116 00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:17,400 Speaker 1: It's trying to get into the rye. It wants to 117 00:07:17,400 --> 00:07:19,840 Speaker 1: spread from plant to plant like a plague upon the 118 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:24,520 Speaker 1: earth and become the zombie virus that that is the 119 00:07:24,640 --> 00:07:28,080 Speaker 1: rye apocalypse. But that is not actually the end of 120 00:07:28,080 --> 00:07:31,000 Speaker 1: the story. Because let's say we're back walking through this 121 00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:34,040 Speaker 1: field of infected rye, and instead of just walking through 122 00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:36,560 Speaker 1: the field, you're walking through the field with a scythe 123 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:41,320 Speaker 1: and you're harvesting these ergan infested stalks, fungus fingers and all, 124 00:07:42,360 --> 00:07:44,600 Speaker 1: and you take it home and you turn it into 125 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:47,640 Speaker 1: some delicious rye bread for you and your family to eat, 126 00:07:47,640 --> 00:07:52,400 Speaker 1: pastrami sandwiches. On what's going to happen to you? Well, 127 00:07:54,040 --> 00:07:57,560 Speaker 1: some bad stuff can happen um And in this we 128 00:07:57,600 --> 00:08:00,880 Speaker 1: get into sort of the complexities of of ergotism and 129 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:05,360 Speaker 1: ergot poisoning, because we have essentially two different forms of 130 00:08:05,480 --> 00:08:09,960 Speaker 1: ergotism that can occur. Yeah, so in these overwintering structures. Uh, 131 00:08:10,320 --> 00:08:14,640 Speaker 1: these little black fingers, they're toxic alkaloids and they can 132 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:18,760 Speaker 1: have various types of effects. Right, Yeah, there are essentially 133 00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:22,000 Speaker 1: there are different strains of the of the organism that 134 00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:26,360 Speaker 1: have different effects when consumed. So on one hand you 135 00:08:26,440 --> 00:08:31,160 Speaker 1: have gangrenous ergotism, which is as horrible as it sounds. 136 00:08:31,200 --> 00:08:33,040 Speaker 1: So the idea here is that ergotism is essentially a 137 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:35,880 Speaker 1: vase of constrictor, so it constricts the blood vessels, so 138 00:08:35,920 --> 00:08:39,120 Speaker 1: it can severely limit the blood flow to the extremities, 139 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:43,000 Speaker 1: which can result in a range of symptoms. Um, you 140 00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:46,880 Speaker 1: can get nausea, limb pain and this, Uh, this particular 141 00:08:46,920 --> 00:08:49,240 Speaker 1: pain in the limbs is often described as having a 142 00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:55,160 Speaker 1: burning sensation, which earned it the nickname ignis say holy 143 00:08:55,240 --> 00:08:57,800 Speaker 1: fire and this and it can also cause the skin 144 00:08:57,880 --> 00:09:01,880 Speaker 1: to appeal. Blisters to you occur all over and then 145 00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:04,920 Speaker 1: this can essentially even lead to to to gang green 146 00:09:05,040 --> 00:09:08,040 Speaker 1: occurring because again the blood vessels are constricted, it's less 147 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:11,240 Speaker 1: blood reaching the extremities, and these extremities can then turn 148 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:15,920 Speaker 1: black and mummified, causing the infected limbs to spontaneously break 149 00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:19,600 Speaker 1: off at the joints. But there's no pain involved in 150 00:09:19,640 --> 00:09:23,240 Speaker 1: this because it's just been cut off, so it's already dead. Yeah, 151 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:27,240 Speaker 1: it's just dead tissue at this point, but it's still rotting. 152 00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:31,320 Speaker 1: It's still that the stinch can still be just completely unbearable. Yeah, 153 00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:36,280 Speaker 1: so just imagine that, because you ate the regular food 154 00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:39,080 Speaker 1: from your regular food supply coming in maybe through your 155 00:09:39,120 --> 00:09:42,360 Speaker 1: town bakery or something like that, you end up with 156 00:09:42,559 --> 00:09:46,480 Speaker 1: mummified feet or mummified hands and you're still alive, but 157 00:09:46,559 --> 00:09:49,520 Speaker 1: you've got blackened limbs that burn it first, then turn 158 00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:52,920 Speaker 1: black like a mummy and fall off. Yeah. It's what 159 00:09:53,080 --> 00:09:58,120 Speaker 1: kind of surreal life is this? It's terrifying, especially when 160 00:09:58,160 --> 00:10:00,240 Speaker 1: you think about it coming from consuming because we so 161 00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:02,800 Speaker 1: often don't think of bread as being this dangerous thing 162 00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:06,040 Speaker 1: because it's such an artificial food substance, right, right, it's 163 00:10:06,080 --> 00:10:08,679 Speaker 1: not like maynnai is left out in the sun that 164 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:10,760 Speaker 1: you can just you know, we quickly think of as 165 00:10:10,800 --> 00:10:12,679 Speaker 1: like that's going to be a problem in your body, Right, 166 00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:16,280 Speaker 1: it's bread, what could go wrong? Okay, So that's gangernous sarchetism. 167 00:10:16,360 --> 00:10:19,120 Speaker 1: But then there's also convulsive evergotism, and this is the 168 00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:23,200 Speaker 1: nervous dysfunction variant UH, and this can also result in 169 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:27,400 Speaker 1: a host of horrible things such as vomiting, diarrhea, lethargy, 170 00:10:27,960 --> 00:10:31,000 Speaker 1: the sensation of ants and spiders crawling all over your body, 171 00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:38,920 Speaker 1: what painful seizures, twitching, spasms, convulsions, blindness, deafness, um and 172 00:10:38,960 --> 00:10:43,200 Speaker 1: generally that the gastro intestinal symptoms that I mentioned. Those 173 00:10:43,240 --> 00:10:47,920 Speaker 1: proceed a full blown central nervous system condition, and in 174 00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:53,479 Speaker 1: its in extremes, you're also encountering hallucinations, mania and psychosis. 175 00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:57,160 Speaker 1: Can you get both strains at the same time? Oh? Yes, 176 00:10:57,440 --> 00:11:00,079 Speaker 1: that's where it gets even because I'm one, hay. Do 177 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:03,240 Speaker 1: you have the mummified stinking flesh rotting variant, then you 178 00:11:03,280 --> 00:11:05,680 Speaker 1: have the madness, spiders all over me, and I'm in 179 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:10,160 Speaker 1: just a psychotic collusiontory state. And indeed, um they can 180 00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:13,440 Speaker 1: occur concurrently, so you can get a mixed form. Though 181 00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:17,040 Speaker 1: historically we tend to see geographic areas in Europe with 182 00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:20,200 Speaker 1: greater tendency towards one form of the these versus the other, 183 00:11:20,760 --> 00:11:23,640 Speaker 1: because again we're looking at slightly different strains of the 184 00:11:23,679 --> 00:11:28,440 Speaker 1: fungus causing either a convulsive organginous organism. And then there's 185 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:32,080 Speaker 1: Also this the ergic stage of the fungus contains a 186 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:35,960 Speaker 1: storehouse of various compounds, ranging from the benign to even 187 00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:39,560 Speaker 1: as well discussed beneficial uh. And since the proportions of 188 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:42,960 Speaker 1: the compound vary even within the species, the same person 189 00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:46,800 Speaker 1: might experience different symptoms on a subsequent consumption of the 190 00:11:46,840 --> 00:11:50,360 Speaker 1: same ergic strain. So you're just kind of rolling the 191 00:11:50,760 --> 00:11:55,600 Speaker 1: like awful dungeon master dice every time you come across 192 00:11:55,640 --> 00:11:58,480 Speaker 1: some erg it in your bread. That's so scary. And 193 00:11:58,520 --> 00:12:01,880 Speaker 1: also just combine this with the fact that it was 194 00:12:01,920 --> 00:12:05,200 Speaker 1: so common in the medieval period, and you can just 195 00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:09,800 Speaker 1: imagine the confusion and the terror that went along with 196 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:14,400 Speaker 1: all of this suffering. Yeah, because you have in areas 197 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:17,920 Speaker 1: where there is a big dependency on rye bread for food, 198 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:21,240 Speaker 1: and so you're gonna have Also, you have areas where 199 00:12:21,360 --> 00:12:24,040 Speaker 1: like one baker may be providing the entire town's bread. 200 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:27,600 Speaker 1: So you have cases where entire medieval towns suffered from 201 00:12:27,679 --> 00:12:31,080 Speaker 1: this um. I mean, it was it was an epidemic. Um. 202 00:12:31,160 --> 00:12:34,319 Speaker 1: On top of that, it tended to target the poorer 203 00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:38,800 Speaker 1: um portions of the population because the dirty your grain, 204 00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:41,600 Speaker 1: the less choice you have in your your grain source 205 00:12:41,640 --> 00:12:44,160 Speaker 1: and your bread. Uh, the more likely you are to 206 00:12:45,080 --> 00:12:48,559 Speaker 1: to encounter urgotism. Well, you know, that made me wonder, 207 00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:53,760 Speaker 1: actually how long ergotism has been a problem for grass 208 00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:56,240 Speaker 1: eating animals on Earth. Because one of the things that 209 00:12:56,960 --> 00:12:59,079 Speaker 1: is certainly true is it's not just humans that get it. 210 00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:01,280 Speaker 1: I mean, people don't just get it from rye cereals 211 00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:05,520 Speaker 1: and rye bread and stuff. Animals get it. Livestock can 212 00:13:05,559 --> 00:13:11,000 Speaker 1: suffer from gangrenous ergitism just from eating infected grasses and grains. 213 00:13:11,679 --> 00:13:15,839 Speaker 1: And apparently this might go back a really long time. 214 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:18,920 Speaker 1: I was wondering just how long his old clavicep has 215 00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:23,200 Speaker 1: been attacking hungry grass eaters with its overwintering structures. Well, 216 00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:25,920 Speaker 1: we know the existence of ergot is tied to the 217 00:13:25,960 --> 00:13:29,600 Speaker 1: existence of its host, which is grass, And until recently, 218 00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:33,480 Speaker 1: we actually didn't know exactly how old grass was. I 219 00:13:33,520 --> 00:13:36,640 Speaker 1: thought that was kind of weird, but that was true. 220 00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:39,360 Speaker 1: We didn't know exactly how far back this plant went. 221 00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:43,840 Speaker 1: According to a report in the journal Paleo Diversity, a 222 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:48,400 Speaker 1: chunk of amber from Mayan Mark contains a preserved sample 223 00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:53,880 Speaker 1: of fungus structure very similar to ergat atop a grass spikelet. 224 00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:56,320 Speaker 1: That's a structure at the top of the grass. You 225 00:13:56,360 --> 00:13:59,120 Speaker 1: know that we uh where the argot would be manifest 226 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:04,480 Speaker 1: and this positions urget fungus around a hundred million years old, 227 00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:11,679 Speaker 1: so well within the Cretaceous period, which means dinosaurs. Okay, 228 00:14:11,720 --> 00:14:15,600 Speaker 1: so we don't know exactly if dinosaurs ate this stuff, 229 00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:19,200 Speaker 1: and we don't know exactly what effect this stuff would 230 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:21,280 Speaker 1: have had on dinosaurs who ate it if they did 231 00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:24,640 Speaker 1: eat it, but if they reacted anything like the mammals 232 00:14:24,680 --> 00:14:27,800 Speaker 1: who eat it, that leads us to imagine a bizarre 233 00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:33,960 Speaker 1: landscape of Cretaceous herbivores like triceratops at twenty thou pounds 234 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:39,600 Speaker 1: having nightmarish hallucinations and doing the st Vitus dance. Wow, 235 00:14:39,640 --> 00:14:42,960 Speaker 1: I mean, I shouldn't laugh, poor poor creature. But but 236 00:14:43,040 --> 00:14:45,160 Speaker 1: at the same time, you have to imagine this uh, 237 00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:48,600 Speaker 1: this psychotic substance that we uh. We end up focusing 238 00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:51,400 Speaker 1: a lot on how it affects the human mind and 239 00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:54,280 Speaker 1: perception of self and even our religion. But to imagine 240 00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:58,720 Speaker 1: a dinosaur, or encountering at a dinosaur essentially uh engaging 241 00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:03,640 Speaker 1: in a dangerous um psychedelic substance, It's ah, it's pretty 242 00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:06,480 Speaker 1: mind blowing, mind blowing. Would be a word for it. Now. 243 00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:10,040 Speaker 1: Of course, the human relationship with ergotism also seems to 244 00:15:10,040 --> 00:15:13,520 Speaker 1: go back very far. Oh yeah, it gets it gets 245 00:15:13,520 --> 00:15:16,720 Speaker 1: interesting because you know, you also deal with the situations where, 246 00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:19,080 Speaker 1: all right, if it is every it's only going to 247 00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:23,400 Speaker 1: show up in places where you actually have civilizations consuming 248 00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:27,040 Speaker 1: a lot of rye Um. There are Assyrian tablets from 249 00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:30,560 Speaker 1: around the six hundred BC that speak of a quote 250 00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:35,480 Speaker 1: noxious pustule in the ear of grain. There um. We 251 00:15:35,560 --> 00:15:41,280 Speaker 1: also see South Asian zoroastron texts that right of quote 252 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:44,240 Speaker 1: grasses that cause pregnant women to drop the womb and 253 00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:47,520 Speaker 1: die in childbirth, and those are from around four hundred 254 00:15:47,560 --> 00:15:50,760 Speaker 1: BC to three hundred BC. But then, you know, we 255 00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:52,960 Speaker 1: turned to the Greeks and Romans, who we often depend 256 00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:55,760 Speaker 1: on for, you know, accounts of of happenings in the 257 00:15:55,760 --> 00:15:58,520 Speaker 1: ancient world, and they were not big on rye bread, 258 00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:02,360 Speaker 1: so they make no mention of it um, which of 259 00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:04,840 Speaker 1: course really cuts into our ability to track it through 260 00:16:04,840 --> 00:16:09,000 Speaker 1: the ancient world. And yet the Greeks do, and this 261 00:16:09,080 --> 00:16:12,680 Speaker 1: is kind of arguable, but the Greeks do give us 262 00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:16,240 Speaker 1: the myth of the temple of el Usus, devoted to 263 00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:20,800 Speaker 1: the cult of Demeter and Persephone a literal descent into hell. 264 00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:25,800 Speaker 1: If you remember that story with Persephone abducted by Hades, etcetera. 265 00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:29,720 Speaker 1: On the temple is a literal descent into hell. No, no, no, 266 00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:33,560 Speaker 1: that the myth is a little exactly yeah. Um, but 267 00:16:33,560 --> 00:16:37,640 Speaker 1: but they're they're concerned with with this story. Uh, the 268 00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:41,040 Speaker 1: myth of the Temple's right. Yeah, so not to to 269 00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:44,280 Speaker 1: rehatch the whole story, but of course it involves essentially 270 00:16:44,280 --> 00:16:48,720 Speaker 1: springtime and summer being kidnapped by Hades and the inevitable 271 00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:52,040 Speaker 1: cycles of seasons that of course ties into agriculture. And 272 00:16:52,080 --> 00:16:55,040 Speaker 1: this is an old agrarian cult. And in order to 273 00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:57,840 Speaker 1: enter this temple, you had to fast, you had to rest, 274 00:16:57,840 --> 00:17:00,640 Speaker 1: you had to make sacrifices, and you also drank something 275 00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:06,400 Speaker 1: called kai kion, which is a strange purple potion. Um. 276 00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:12,240 Speaker 1: And again think of clouds proparia resulting in tears, hallucinations, tremors, 277 00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:16,040 Speaker 1: and sweats and so some suggest that this might have 278 00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:20,600 Speaker 1: been derived from cloud steps proparia. And uh and who 279 00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:24,000 Speaker 1: better than an ancient agrarian cult to utilize the reality 280 00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:26,919 Speaker 1: warping powers of a crop fucus? Right, Yeah, this points 281 00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:30,080 Speaker 1: out one thing that's especially scary. I think I couldn't 282 00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:31,960 Speaker 1: quite put my finger on what it was earlier in 283 00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:35,400 Speaker 1: this episode, but the way in which agriculture is so 284 00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:40,080 Speaker 1: deeply tied to civilization, Like in some ways, agriculture is 285 00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:43,520 Speaker 1: sort of the definition of civilization. When do civilization arise, 286 00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:46,280 Speaker 1: it's when we settle down and grow crops, and what 287 00:17:46,359 --> 00:17:50,040 Speaker 1: are our main crops their grains. Then also there is 288 00:17:50,080 --> 00:17:53,840 Speaker 1: the fact that much like you're pointing out here, many 289 00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:57,720 Speaker 1: of the world's religions, and especially many ancient religions, have 290 00:17:58,040 --> 00:18:02,119 Speaker 1: deeply agricultural themes that are based on grains. That you know, 291 00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:05,760 Speaker 1: there are death and rebirth cycles of the gods and 292 00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:08,480 Speaker 1: of the ancient heroes that are based on the cycles 293 00:18:08,520 --> 00:18:11,760 Speaker 1: of seasons, the growth of crops in the harvest. Yeah, indeed, 294 00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:14,159 Speaker 1: I mean you see that transition from the old gods 295 00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:16,560 Speaker 1: of the hunt, the chaotic gods of the hunt. I 296 00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:18,879 Speaker 1: don't know what my next meal is going to reach me. 297 00:18:18,920 --> 00:18:21,160 Speaker 1: It depends entirely on what kind of animal I can kill, 298 00:18:21,359 --> 00:18:24,800 Speaker 1: to this more dependable, cyclical nature in the very the 299 00:18:24,840 --> 00:18:27,480 Speaker 1: grarian gods that go with it. Yeah, So it's obvious 300 00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:30,320 Speaker 1: that over time the notion of agriculture has been deeply 301 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:35,239 Speaker 1: ingrained in us, like pun not intended, deeply sort of 302 00:18:35,320 --> 00:18:39,080 Speaker 1: injected into our minds and and into our cultures, so 303 00:18:39,119 --> 00:18:43,479 Speaker 1: that it even shows up in our mythological and magical symbols. 304 00:18:43,520 --> 00:18:46,840 Speaker 1: So the idea that our grain can be corrupted in 305 00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:50,359 Speaker 1: a way that that makes us sea hell, you know, 306 00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:53,760 Speaker 1: and feel burning in our bodies is so is so 307 00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:59,240 Speaker 1: perverse and unpleasant and disruptive of what society should be, 308 00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:03,400 Speaker 1: which is safty instability. Yeah, of course, during the fact 309 00:19:03,480 --> 00:19:06,000 Speaker 1: that agriculture itself is kind of a perversion of a 310 00:19:06,119 --> 00:19:08,760 Speaker 1: natural process for our benefit. Yeah, that's a good point. 311 00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:12,959 Speaker 1: So anyway, it's not until the Christian era that urgantism 312 00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:16,600 Speaker 1: is actually described in surviving accounts. Again, uh, and this 313 00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:19,359 Speaker 1: is around the time when rise introduced into Western Europe. 314 00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:23,080 Speaker 1: So are very early outbreaks of urgotism. We see them 315 00:19:23,119 --> 00:19:26,280 Speaker 1: documented in the Rhine Valley in the year eight fifty seven. 316 00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:29,840 Speaker 1: And again it disproportionately affects the poor, who had less 317 00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:32,960 Speaker 1: choice about you know, their grain sources and their how 318 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:37,160 Speaker 1: dirty their grain is. Um and urg It was most 319 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:40,439 Speaker 1: common when a harsh winter followed a cool, wet spring, 320 00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:43,560 Speaker 1: because many would exhaust their food supplies and they'd be 321 00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:46,320 Speaker 1: forced to eat the infected grain. Okay, so they knew 322 00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:49,840 Speaker 1: something might not be great about the grain that had 323 00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:52,000 Speaker 1: lots of erg it in it. Yeah, just the the 324 00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:54,800 Speaker 1: dirtier grain. Yeah, there was. They weren't able to like 325 00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:57,359 Speaker 1: completely put everything together, but there were there was some 326 00:19:57,480 --> 00:20:00,880 Speaker 1: ideas about it. Um. And then from around nine hundred 327 00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:05,600 Speaker 1: uh ce when records uh evidently became more common in 328 00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:08,520 Speaker 1: what is now France and Germany, to around uh hundred, 329 00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:12,840 Speaker 1: see you see severe epidemics of urgotism affecting large areas 330 00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:17,000 Speaker 1: every five to ten years. Yeah, and of course it 331 00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:20,439 Speaker 1: becomes such an issue that in ten ninety three you 332 00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:23,119 Speaker 1: see the founding of a religious order, the Order of 333 00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:26,840 Speaker 1: hospital Ers of Saint Anthony, founded in southern France to 334 00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:30,199 Speaker 1: help those afflicted. Uh. Saint Anthony is of course the 335 00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:33,359 Speaker 1: patron saint of skin diseases, and that the malady itself 336 00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:37,080 Speaker 1: was named Saint Anthony's Fire. Uh. Anthony of course is 337 00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:41,720 Speaker 1: said to face supernatural temptations kind of hallucinatory U encounters. 338 00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:44,680 Speaker 1: So this is of course a favorite subject in Western 339 00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:47,960 Speaker 1: art from the medieval period onward, which makes him even 340 00:20:47,960 --> 00:20:51,200 Speaker 1: more suitable for this so the monks built over three 341 00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:55,919 Speaker 1: hundred seventy hospitals, and those who came often found some 342 00:20:56,000 --> 00:20:59,640 Speaker 1: relief from urgotism. Uh, though it's kind of you can 343 00:20:59,800 --> 00:21:01,359 Speaker 1: kind to get into the situation. How much of it 344 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:04,040 Speaker 1: is they're treating of the skin ailments, and they also 345 00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:07,680 Speaker 1: treated other skin ailments beside or beside organism. But then 346 00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:10,720 Speaker 1: also while you're under their care, you're probably not continuing 347 00:21:10,760 --> 00:21:14,920 Speaker 1: to consume that rye bread while you're under the care 348 00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:18,800 Speaker 1: of the hospitalers, so that can contribute to your recovery. 349 00:21:19,359 --> 00:21:23,280 Speaker 1: Then you go back home and you're back restarted. Yet 350 00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:25,520 Speaker 1: another reason. It seems like we're all rather fortunate we 351 00:21:25,560 --> 00:21:29,480 Speaker 1: don't live in medieval Europe. Um. And of course you 352 00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:32,320 Speaker 1: have other things that are occurring of probably due to 353 00:21:32,440 --> 00:21:34,920 Speaker 1: organism as well as all of our Sacks points out 354 00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:38,600 Speaker 1: in his excellent book Hallucinations. Uh. Some historians attribute organ 355 00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:41,840 Speaker 1: poisoning as a possible factor much later, with the Salem 356 00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:44,880 Speaker 1: witch hysteria in the New World, but it may also 357 00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:48,359 Speaker 1: explain the dancing plagues reported between the fourteenth and seventeenth 358 00:21:48,359 --> 00:21:54,040 Speaker 1: century as well. So individuals suddenly behaving erratically in mass Uh. 359 00:21:54,119 --> 00:21:56,480 Speaker 1: You get into arguments, is this mass hysteria. Is this 360 00:21:56,560 --> 00:22:01,159 Speaker 1: more of a you know, a social contagion, or is 361 00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:04,720 Speaker 1: it indeed tied to the consumption of ergot and and 362 00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:07,680 Speaker 1: and and suffering from convulsive ergotism. Yeah, and obviously we 363 00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:09,960 Speaker 1: don't have the answer there. I think a lot of 364 00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:12,600 Speaker 1: people are skeptical of the idea that ergot caused the 365 00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:15,240 Speaker 1: dancing manias. If you're not familiar, you should look these 366 00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:18,080 Speaker 1: up there. They're crazy, the the ideas that you know, 367 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:21,200 Speaker 1: in random places throughout Europe in the medieval period, you'd 368 00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:25,320 Speaker 1: have suddenly lots of people would just start dancing and 369 00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:29,040 Speaker 1: it seemed they seemed possessed in some way like that 370 00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:32,639 Speaker 1: they couldn't stop, and people were afraid they didn't know 371 00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:36,119 Speaker 1: what was going on. And now, I mean, I don't 372 00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:39,040 Speaker 1: really see phenomenon like that occurring today, so I don't 373 00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:41,080 Speaker 1: even really know what I could compare it to. Well, 374 00:22:41,119 --> 00:22:45,040 Speaker 1: there you do see accounts of mass hysteria um and 375 00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:47,240 Speaker 1: we actually have an episode on this off the link 376 00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:49,879 Speaker 1: to on the the landing page of this episode. You 377 00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:51,960 Speaker 1: do see accounts where you'll say, I have a group 378 00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:56,560 Speaker 1: of school children at at at a academy somewhere, and 379 00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:59,120 Speaker 1: they all believe they'd come down with an illness when 380 00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:02,719 Speaker 1: there's actually no this that sort of thing. Um uh. 381 00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:07,119 Speaker 1: Also in the past, you know a few centuries accounts 382 00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:10,480 Speaker 1: of everyone in a particular area claiming to see some 383 00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:12,879 Speaker 1: sort of supernatural event, to all really see it or 384 00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:15,199 Speaker 1: is it just kind of this this group, you know, 385 00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:18,320 Speaker 1: this collective hysteria that's taking over them. Yeah, So the 386 00:23:18,359 --> 00:23:20,720 Speaker 1: general hypothesis is that it might have had something to 387 00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:22,560 Speaker 1: do with some of these dancing manias. We don't know. 388 00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:25,520 Speaker 1: But the specific one about the Salem which trials is interesting. 389 00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:30,040 Speaker 1: How exactly does the does the ergot theory come in here? Yes, 390 00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:34,080 Speaker 1: some historians feel that it's entirely possible that Elizabeth Paris, 391 00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:36,959 Speaker 1: the first girl to to fall ill, actually suffered from 392 00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:39,119 Speaker 1: some sort of ergot poisoning and then the rest of 393 00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:42,920 Speaker 1: the girls um took the opportunity to stave off their 394 00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:46,639 Speaker 1: boredom uh and and engage in this kind of persecution. 395 00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:49,840 Speaker 1: It it kind of drives home like the problem of 396 00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:52,120 Speaker 1: pointing out any kind of strange occurrence in the past 397 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:54,119 Speaker 1: and saying, oh, well, this was this poisoning, or this 398 00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:57,040 Speaker 1: was a psychedelic or or what have you, because ultimately 399 00:23:57,040 --> 00:24:01,040 Speaker 1: the social dynamics of these situations are airly complex and 400 00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:04,120 Speaker 1: there can be multiple energies feeding into them. Yeah. Yeah, 401 00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:06,760 Speaker 1: psychohistory is a very difficult thing to try to do. 402 00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:09,240 Speaker 1: Didn't Josh Clark write something about this for the website? 403 00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:12,480 Speaker 1: He did? He wrote where the American Colonists drugged during 404 00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:15,920 Speaker 1: the Salem Witch Trials? And in it he he points 405 00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:18,919 Speaker 1: out that, you know, one of the criticisms with some 406 00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:22,200 Speaker 1: of these the theories, uh, you know, raises the question 407 00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:25,440 Speaker 1: why only the girls, why not the others? Why only 408 00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:28,680 Speaker 1: six two? Why not previous years? In later years? So 409 00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:32,600 Speaker 1: when you start trying to say, you know, say urgantism 410 00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:36,439 Speaker 1: is the is the smoking gun here? Uh, there's just 411 00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:41,920 Speaker 1: so many additional questions that arise, like bread, like bread, 412 00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:46,040 Speaker 1: just to make sure we get another vacant well, terrible puns. 413 00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:48,000 Speaker 1: But I mean whether or not it had any role 414 00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:50,560 Speaker 1: to play in dancing manias or the Salem witch Trials, 415 00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:55,440 Speaker 1: it certainly was a real phenomenon that was psychedelic and horrifying. Yeah. Now, 416 00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:57,639 Speaker 1: we mentioned that by the eighteen fifties we had a 417 00:24:57,680 --> 00:25:02,520 Speaker 1: pretty good understanding of how archetism were the last reported outbreak, 418 00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:05,120 Speaker 1: and this is by no means conclusive. There are alternative 419 00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:08,640 Speaker 1: theories for this as well. Um. The last reported outbreak 420 00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:12,040 Speaker 1: occurred in nineteen fifty one in pont Standard Spreit in 421 00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:15,640 Speaker 1: southern France, in which more than two cases were reported 422 00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:19,119 Speaker 1: along with four deaths. But again that's not cut and 423 00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:24,400 Speaker 1: dry either. So we mentioned the various compounds that are 424 00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:28,119 Speaker 1: that are that are in the uh, the fungus, right, 425 00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:30,879 Speaker 1: they have these alkaloids in them that can cause terrible 426 00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:35,120 Speaker 1: symptoms and diseases. But they can actually be used or 427 00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:38,840 Speaker 1: maybe derivatives from them can be used for legitimate medical purposes, 428 00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:40,919 Speaker 1: can't they They can? Yeah, I mean it's it's kind 429 00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:42,920 Speaker 1: of one of the you know, underlying ideas that any 430 00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:46,840 Speaker 1: kind of particularly powerful substance produced by nature, uh, it 431 00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:52,320 Speaker 1: can be utilized efficiently if if properly managed. Yeah. One 432 00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:55,000 Speaker 1: of my favorite technology stories is how to use animal 433 00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:59,000 Speaker 1: venom in medicine, like using scorpion venom in medicine to 434 00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:02,240 Speaker 1: treat diseases. Yeah, I mean, we we we have numerous 435 00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:06,360 Speaker 1: cases where we can take something that is in nature, uh, 436 00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:08,240 Speaker 1: this deadly substance, then we can use it for our 437 00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:12,080 Speaker 1: own benefit in a medicine or say a spice of flavoring. Um. 438 00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:14,879 Speaker 1: You know what, what is a spicy pepper added to 439 00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:17,600 Speaker 1: your your taco salad? But for a fun way to 440 00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:21,240 Speaker 1: see something unusual. Yeah, exactly. So with there we get. 441 00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:25,080 Speaker 1: We have a few different compounds of note UM. There's ergonovine. 442 00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:28,640 Speaker 1: This is a compound produced by clavisups Papyria that we've 443 00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:32,600 Speaker 1: used for centuries and even today to um to speed 444 00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:37,320 Speaker 1: up labor prevent postpartum bleeding. And we see it uh 445 00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:40,159 Speaker 1: we and in this we see the uh. The the 446 00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:44,520 Speaker 1: vaso constrictive properties of of er get put to good use, 447 00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:47,919 Speaker 1: and this is typically administered during the third stage of labor. 448 00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:53,520 Speaker 1: And then there's ERGOTAMINEU. This is useful with migraine headaches 449 00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:57,919 Speaker 1: because it reduces extra cranial blood flow. It's also a 450 00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:01,400 Speaker 1: serotonin agonist which can help alleviate the headaches as well. 451 00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:05,439 Speaker 1: And on top of that, they're scientists have looked into 452 00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:09,120 Speaker 1: the possibility that it could be used treating Parkinson's disease 453 00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:13,680 Speaker 1: since ergo is a dopamine agonist, meaning that it increases 454 00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:16,919 Speaker 1: the effects of the neurotransmitter dopamine in the brain UH. 455 00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:21,240 Speaker 1: In Parkinson's patients, dopamine transmitting neurons die off. So ergic 456 00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:25,040 Speaker 1: derivatives are helpful in boosting the signal between nerve cells 457 00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:27,840 Speaker 1: and the brain. And of course researchers can continue to 458 00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:32,160 Speaker 1: explore uses for compounds produced by the claviceps fungus as well. 459 00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:35,560 Speaker 1: That's right, I mean muscle relax here is potentially a 460 00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:39,680 Speaker 1: treatment of various circulatory diseases UM, and it might even 461 00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:42,320 Speaker 1: work as a possible anti tumor drugs. So you know, 462 00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:44,520 Speaker 1: the work continues. Again, it's a it's powerful substance, and 463 00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:47,159 Speaker 1: scientists continue to continue to come back to it and 464 00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:49,960 Speaker 1: look at possible uses for it. Right, But of course 465 00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:53,800 Speaker 1: we would be remiss if we did not discuss at 466 00:27:53,840 --> 00:28:01,000 Speaker 1: some length the relationship between ergot and psychedelic drugs. That's right, Um, 467 00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:04,359 Speaker 1: l s D in particular. Yeah, so urge actually plays 468 00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:07,920 Speaker 1: a role in the scientific isolation and discovery of L 469 00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:11,240 Speaker 1: s D by the Swiss chemist Albert Hoffman. Right. So yeah, 470 00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:14,600 Speaker 1: Back in the nineteen thirties, researchers at the Rockville Institute 471 00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:18,480 Speaker 1: in New York isolated lesurgic acid from an ergic compound, 472 00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:22,480 Speaker 1: and the research was the basis for Albert Hoffman's work 473 00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:27,440 Speaker 1: at Sandas a pharmaceutical company. And uh, and so the 474 00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:31,840 Speaker 1: the roots of LSD, the the roots of of lesergic 475 00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:37,200 Speaker 1: acid lie in the isolation of the compound within it. Yeah, 476 00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:39,760 Speaker 1: so Albert Hoffman was actually the one in in the 477 00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:44,640 Speaker 1: late nineteen thirties to derive LSD twenty five lessergic acid 478 00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:48,360 Speaker 1: uh diethyla minde. And if we believe the story, it 479 00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:52,440 Speaker 1: was not originally created for the purpose of causing acid trips, 480 00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:57,240 Speaker 1: now that the pharmaceutical companies had other things in mind. 481 00:28:57,320 --> 00:28:59,800 Speaker 1: But but I believe the story is that Hoffman a 482 00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:03,840 Speaker 1: sedentally dosed himself with this while working with it in 483 00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:06,720 Speaker 1: the lab and began to feel weird. He began to 484 00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:11,040 Speaker 1: feel the effects of an LSD trip, and after experiencing 485 00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:13,560 Speaker 1: that once, he was like, oh, that was kind of interesting, 486 00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:18,560 Speaker 1: maybe worth doing some more research, And so he synthesized 487 00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:22,280 Speaker 1: a batch to test on himself, basically right. And so 488 00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:24,400 Speaker 1: I know, you know a number of people are probably wondering, 489 00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:26,360 Speaker 1: what does that mean. I can grow ergic, I can 490 00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:30,440 Speaker 1: cultivate ergic and uh and therefore create my own LSD. 491 00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:34,000 Speaker 1: Well disclaimer, we're not recommending you do this, no, not 492 00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:37,400 Speaker 1: at all. And uh, even if you would you wanted to, 493 00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:39,760 Speaker 1: I think you would probably stall out on this process. 494 00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:43,920 Speaker 1: But uh, according to the vaults of Rowind, which is 495 00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:48,200 Speaker 1: a nonprofit educational organization that provides information about psychoactive plants 496 00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:52,600 Speaker 1: and chemicals, Uh, it's easier to do this than depending 497 00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:56,520 Speaker 1: on morning Glory or Hawaiian baby wood rose for the 498 00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:59,760 Speaker 1: surgic acid amides that you need. Now, we're not gonna 499 00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:03,320 Speaker 1: walk you through the process because it's um it's a 500 00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:05,840 Speaker 1: long process. And and by the way, it includes the 501 00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:10,440 Speaker 1: recommendation quote avoid prolonged contact with the errogant compounds as 502 00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:13,640 Speaker 1: they are poisonous and can be fatal. But suffice to 503 00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:16,800 Speaker 1: say that involves a lot of sterile and chemically specific 504 00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:20,920 Speaker 1: handling of clavists purpruria as a first step in a 505 00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:25,600 Speaker 1: long road to synthesizing lsd YA. So in addition to 506 00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:29,560 Speaker 1: the disclaimer, it's probably gonna be difficult, difficult, and you 507 00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:33,600 Speaker 1: my poison yourself. So maybe just you know, go watch 508 00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:36,920 Speaker 1: Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas again instead. There you go. Yeah, 509 00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:40,400 Speaker 1: but I want to get back to that disease, Jesus, Oh, yes, 510 00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:45,800 Speaker 1: get back to the The Eisenheim altarpiece of German Renaissance 511 00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:49,760 Speaker 1: paider painter at Matthias Gruenwald lived a fourteen seventy through 512 00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:54,520 Speaker 1: and uh, as with a number of these you know 513 00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:57,520 Speaker 1: older masters. You know, we don't know a whole lot 514 00:30:57,560 --> 00:31:01,960 Speaker 1: about his life. Uh. Most mostly his his work is 515 00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:05,600 Speaker 1: what still speaks to us. Right. So one panel illustrates 516 00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:08,720 Speaker 1: the temptation of St. Anthony in grotesque detail, with his 517 00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:13,000 Speaker 1: demon tormentors displaying clear skin ailments that are that are 518 00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:16,800 Speaker 1: clearly inspired by the skin ailments dealt with by the hospitallers. Yeah, 519 00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:20,640 Speaker 1: what were the details so that temptation My recollection is 520 00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:23,960 Speaker 1: that he basically went into the into the desert, into 521 00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:26,760 Speaker 1: the wilderness to to pray as you do, and so 522 00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:28,840 Speaker 1: kind of like Christ in the in the Gospel. Yeah, 523 00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:33,280 Speaker 1: but I I don't recall them making any particular offers, 524 00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:36,120 Speaker 1: like like the whole temptation of Christ. Of course, the 525 00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:39,240 Speaker 1: devil offers the you know, for Jesus to be the 526 00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:42,160 Speaker 1: king of the world and all that. Uh, there's there's 527 00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:43,720 Speaker 1: more of the death and offer on the table where 528 00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:46,840 Speaker 1: I think, uh St Anthony was just plagued by demons. 529 00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:49,720 Speaker 1: Do we get to turn these breads into stone? Or 530 00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:53,640 Speaker 1: now you might want to turn these breads into stones 531 00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:58,920 Speaker 1: if they are urgan infested deeds. Um. So yeah, so St. 532 00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:01,560 Speaker 1: Anthony is very much a part of the altarpiece. But 533 00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:04,160 Speaker 1: then we see this vision of the suffering Christ, which 534 00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:08,480 Speaker 1: we already mentioned, who clearly displays symptoms of the individuals 535 00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:13,240 Speaker 1: that were suffering in the monastery, covered with sores, gangernous flesh. 536 00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:17,000 Speaker 1: Even his hands and feet, uh, even though they're you know, 537 00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:21,880 Speaker 1: pierced by by nails. Uh, they're twisted and convulsed as 538 00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:26,320 Speaker 1: if one was suffering from convulsive right. And so it's 539 00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:29,680 Speaker 1: not part of the religious tradition of any Christians that 540 00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:33,000 Speaker 1: Christ actually suffered from margate poisoning. Like, that's not in 541 00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:36,680 Speaker 1: the Bible. That's not particularly a belief. This was just 542 00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:40,560 Speaker 1: sort of an interpretive lens of Gruenwald's right. Yeah. In fact, 543 00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:43,160 Speaker 1: I mean up until the thirteenth century, the predominant style 544 00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:46,240 Speaker 1: was was to depict Christ not even really suffering at all. 545 00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:48,400 Speaker 1: He would just be up there with his you know, 546 00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:53,000 Speaker 1: his eyes eyes open, seemings seemingly impervious to the physical torments. 547 00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:56,440 Speaker 1: It is only after that that you start displaying Jesus 548 00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:59,040 Speaker 1: as actually suffering, as a human would up there, as 549 00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:02,280 Speaker 1: opposed to just being above it like a God Um. 550 00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:07,280 Speaker 1: So really um, Gruenwald was just taking this uh to 551 00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:10,760 Speaker 1: the local level, you know, because he's surrounded by individuals 552 00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:13,400 Speaker 1: that are are suffering from urgotism and other scan elements, 553 00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:17,280 Speaker 1: and so historians believe that he actually used those patients 554 00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:21,960 Speaker 1: as his subjects, capturing clinical details UH and their abnormal 555 00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:27,400 Speaker 1: postures and using that as the model for not only 556 00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:31,760 Speaker 1: the demons assaulting St. Anthony, but but the suffering of 557 00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:36,120 Speaker 1: Christ himself. That's actually kind of a moving way of 558 00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:39,000 Speaker 1: thinking about how these people were grappling with their religion. 559 00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:42,840 Speaker 1: So if their idea is that, you know, what is 560 00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:45,840 Speaker 1: the significance of Christ, that it's you know, the powerful 561 00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:49,200 Speaker 1: God coming down to earth to suffer with humanity, it 562 00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:51,640 Speaker 1: would make sense that they would they would impart to 563 00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:56,000 Speaker 1: their vision of the suffering Servant, the suffering God, the 564 00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:58,360 Speaker 1: same things they were suffering from. It's sort of like 565 00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:01,680 Speaker 1: a bonding relation and ship they can form with the 566 00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:04,600 Speaker 1: God that they worship. Yeah, I mean, because ultimately you're 567 00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:07,560 Speaker 1: laying there on the floor, you're suffering from urgetism, You're 568 00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:11,600 Speaker 1: being attended to by these hospitallers. What kind of suffering 569 00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:13,000 Speaker 1: Christ do you want to look up at? You? Want 570 00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:15,239 Speaker 1: to see the serene like, oh, I hardly noticed I 571 00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:17,000 Speaker 1: have nails in me. You want to see the Oh 572 00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:20,040 Speaker 1: I'm I'm I'm crucified, but I'm you know, really buff 573 00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:22,880 Speaker 1: and otherwise healthy. Or do you want to see a 574 00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:25,200 Speaker 1: Christ that is suffering as you suffer? He knows what 575 00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:28,600 Speaker 1: it's like to have the limbs blacken and and to 576 00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:32,520 Speaker 1: feel the igny sassare. Yeah, yeah, I mean I agree. 577 00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:35,759 Speaker 1: I ultimately find it, you know, really really poignant. It 578 00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:38,520 Speaker 1: also makes me wonder how come we don't see like 579 00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:42,160 Speaker 1: a sort of modern first world problems version of Christ 580 00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:46,680 Speaker 1: on the Cross says most of us can't relate to severe, um, 581 00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:49,560 Speaker 1: you know, fleshly torment. Perhaps there's like a vision of 582 00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:52,680 Speaker 1: Christ that could be created where he just doesn't have 583 00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:54,919 Speaker 1: enough bars on his cell phone or is his phone 584 00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:57,680 Speaker 1: running out of batteries, you know, and because that kind 585 00:34:57,680 --> 00:35:00,840 Speaker 1: of suffering the modern millennial can you can relate to, 586 00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:06,880 Speaker 1: Let's not paint that picture. Uh speaking of painting pictures though, Um, 587 00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:12,399 Speaker 1: there are various other artistic interpretations of urgotism. Uh, there's 588 00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:14,799 Speaker 1: one that came up that I was really taken with. 589 00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:17,600 Speaker 1: Then it's just a minor when it's a woodcut, uh 590 00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:22,600 Speaker 1: titled St Anthony's Fire Ergotism by Johannes Vichland and this 591 00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:27,640 Speaker 1: is from around four nine, probably thirties, somewhere in there. 592 00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:29,960 Speaker 1: And we see a man with a flaming ganger in 593 00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:32,560 Speaker 1: his hand, appealing to St. Anthony. So it looks kind 594 00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:35,560 Speaker 1: of like like it reminds me the hand of Glory, 595 00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:37,920 Speaker 1: you know. Oh I haven't seen this. Yeah, yeah, here 596 00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:40,920 Speaker 1: it is. Here's the copy of it. Oh, that is amazing. 597 00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:44,359 Speaker 1: So you have the saint is very tall, and then 598 00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:47,520 Speaker 1: there's like a child sort of at knee level reaching 599 00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:51,440 Speaker 1: up with the crippled limbs, but a flaming hand on 600 00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:57,160 Speaker 1: fire beseeching the saint. And then uh, then there's also 601 00:35:57,239 --> 00:36:01,560 Speaker 1: of course U Hieronymous Bosh, who is an even more 602 00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:04,320 Speaker 1: towering figure in the history of Western art. Yes, so 603 00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:06,480 Speaker 1: the idea here is a little bit different, not so 604 00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:09,600 Speaker 1: much that the artist was inspired by a world of 605 00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:13,279 Speaker 1: people suffering from argotism, but perhaps that the artist might 606 00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:16,719 Speaker 1: have been suffering from argotism himself. Indeed, though, I mean 607 00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:19,160 Speaker 1: there are there are some works by Bosch, such as 608 00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:21,120 Speaker 1: the Procession of the Cripples, which features a number of 609 00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:25,040 Speaker 1: afflicted bodies uh, and at least three of them uh 610 00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:27,200 Speaker 1: seemed to be suffering from organtism. So he did a 611 00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:29,960 Speaker 1: little bit at least of observing argotism in the world 612 00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:33,080 Speaker 1: around him. Sure, I didn't mean to rule that out, no, no, no, 613 00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:36,719 Speaker 1: um And just to put Bosch in his place historically 614 00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:41,440 Speaker 1: fourteen fifty to fifteen sixteen, early, highly highly influential, a 615 00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:47,239 Speaker 1: Netherlandish painter known for his surrealistic, nightmarish and cryptic imagery. Um. 616 00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:49,680 Speaker 1: And this was very much a time when argotism was 617 00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:53,399 Speaker 1: epidemic uh in the Netherlands. Yeah, if you haven't seen 618 00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:58,480 Speaker 1: Bosch's paintings, actually you probably have seen them. Here's here's 619 00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:00,799 Speaker 1: the clue that you're looking at a Bosch painting. Are 620 00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:04,520 Speaker 1: there lots of little people in it? And is it crazy? Yeah? 621 00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:08,160 Speaker 1: Are there like crazy bird demons, chamber pots on their head? 622 00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:12,440 Speaker 1: Like just those just surrealistic visions of medieval hell coupled 623 00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:17,719 Speaker 1: with the detailed depictions of peasants and stunning realistic landscapes. 624 00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:20,120 Speaker 1: Like that's pretty much Bosch in a nutshell. And you 625 00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:24,040 Speaker 1: would probably see his work uh on like like one 626 00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:28,719 Speaker 1: out of five college dorm room walls. Not to I 627 00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:31,120 Speaker 1: mean not not just to say his work isn't brilliant, 628 00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:33,319 Speaker 1: because it is. I mean, I still I still can get. 629 00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:36,280 Speaker 1: You can just lose myself staring into a Bosch painting 630 00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:38,799 Speaker 1: because there it's also it's just cryptic. There's so many 631 00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:41,719 Speaker 1: symbols at play, many of which would make more sense 632 00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:45,279 Speaker 1: to a contemporary viewer, particularly in the clergy or you know, 633 00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:47,719 Speaker 1: a lay patron. There may be a little more lost 634 00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:51,799 Speaker 1: on us today, but there's a lot going on. Uh 635 00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:53,680 Speaker 1: and in our mind just has to grapple with it. 636 00:37:53,719 --> 00:37:56,000 Speaker 1: When we were one of his paintings, Yeah, they're they're 637 00:37:56,080 --> 00:38:00,239 Speaker 1: dark and highly imaginative. They make a rob zombie music 638 00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:04,080 Speaker 1: video look dull by comparison. In fact, he has been 639 00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:06,400 Speaker 1: His work has been a reference in a couple of 640 00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:09,560 Speaker 1: music videos. I think Metallica did one where they had 641 00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:13,799 Speaker 1: some uh some some Bosch imagery going on, and then 642 00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:19,279 Speaker 1: Buckethead did a music video that is just basically one 643 00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:23,120 Speaker 1: of Bosch's paintings animated. Yeah, it's it's pretty pretty stunning. 644 00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:28,440 Speaker 1: So so what's the argument here, Well, if you look 645 00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:32,799 Speaker 1: at Bosch's own Temptation of St. Anthony triptych, you'll see 646 00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:36,279 Speaker 1: that it features people with amputated and mummified feet. You 647 00:38:36,360 --> 00:38:42,480 Speaker 1: also see a half human, half vegetable tree woman creature. Uh. 648 00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:45,480 Speaker 1: You see an egg shaped structure belching smoke and flame. 649 00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:48,000 Speaker 1: And there's an argument here that in the sort of 650 00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:52,359 Speaker 1: the the code of the painting, that the vegetable human 651 00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:55,600 Speaker 1: is actually a man drake, which is if you if 652 00:38:55,600 --> 00:38:58,560 Speaker 1: you've ever seen the works of Guermo del Toro, you 653 00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:00,879 Speaker 1: know the man drake or a ry Potter, Right, It's 654 00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:04,919 Speaker 1: it's kind of human looking. The root and the herb 655 00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:07,920 Speaker 1: was used to alleviate the pains of Saint Anthony's fire 656 00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:11,000 Speaker 1: by the hospitalers. So and then on top of that, 657 00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:15,600 Speaker 1: the egg shaped structure was possibly an apothecaries retort the 658 00:39:15,640 --> 00:39:20,960 Speaker 1: distillery used to reduce medical herbs. So do you actually 659 00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:25,120 Speaker 1: think Bosh was suffering from the like the hallucinatory visions 660 00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:28,839 Speaker 1: of ergan poisoning? Um? I can to think not. I mean, 661 00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:32,560 Speaker 1: some some people make a you know, rather impassioned argument 662 00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:36,239 Speaker 1: for that, or even I've seen some arguments that he 663 00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:40,960 Speaker 1: maybe used some sort of ergic derived potion as part 664 00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:43,080 Speaker 1: of some sort of a cult he was in. Maybe 665 00:39:43,080 --> 00:39:46,920 Speaker 1: he was aligned with the Cathars. Uh. Yeah, that's almost 666 00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:50,120 Speaker 1: like what would be the Renaissance equivalent of steampunk. I 667 00:39:50,160 --> 00:39:53,240 Speaker 1: don't know alchemy alchemy, I guess, yeah, I mean certainly 668 00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:57,040 Speaker 1: there are a lot of you know, arguments of involving 669 00:39:57,440 --> 00:40:02,480 Speaker 1: Bosch's involvement with with alchemy. But but yeah, I think 670 00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:05,400 Speaker 1: it's the kind of gets back to the whole Dancing 671 00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:09,040 Speaker 1: Mania Salem Witchcraft thing, right, like the to to point 672 00:40:09,040 --> 00:40:12,719 Speaker 1: it to Ergotism is the single smoking gun for this uh, 673 00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:16,480 Speaker 1: for this artist and his his imagination. It's it's too easy, 674 00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:19,080 Speaker 1: and it's it's kind of limiting, you know. Yeah, with 675 00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:21,800 Speaker 1: with a lot of these hypotheses, I think very often 676 00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:25,040 Speaker 1: you have to say, well, that's interesting, but I mean 677 00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:27,880 Speaker 1: we we just don't really know, yeah, and we ultimately 678 00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:31,960 Speaker 1: know very little about the Hieronymous Bosh's life. It's just 679 00:40:32,239 --> 00:40:35,200 Speaker 1: he's ultimately kind of a blank canvas, and you can 680 00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:37,200 Speaker 1: in his room enough on that point canvas to put 681 00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:39,080 Speaker 1: in anything you want to be a uh, you know, 682 00:40:39,160 --> 00:40:42,000 Speaker 1: involvement in some sort of a strange uh um, you know, 683 00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:45,279 Speaker 1: psychedelic cult or you know, some some ergot poisoning in 684 00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:48,080 Speaker 1: his time, which is certainly possible given where he lived 685 00:40:48,120 --> 00:40:51,880 Speaker 1: and when he lived. But it's also just as possible 686 00:40:52,239 --> 00:40:56,520 Speaker 1: that he was just a really imaginative, creative, highly skilled 687 00:40:56,640 --> 00:40:59,719 Speaker 1: artist who was also who was working with with with 688 00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:04,560 Speaker 1: many established symbols and motifs but also embellishing them, uh, 689 00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:08,560 Speaker 1: in just a purely creative way. It's also entirely possible 690 00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:11,520 Speaker 1: that he did suffer from some sort of hallucination or another. 691 00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:16,440 Speaker 1: But there are so many reasons that you could experience 692 00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:19,279 Speaker 1: an hallucination. There's so many ways that you could enter 693 00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:22,960 Speaker 1: this altered mind, uh mind space that don't involve the 694 00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:26,480 Speaker 1: consumption of ERG or any psychedelic sustenance. Sure, and then 695 00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:29,839 Speaker 1: of course there's just the hypothesis that, like Gruenwald, this 696 00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:33,360 Speaker 1: was his environment. He was living in a world of 697 00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:37,560 Speaker 1: of mummified limbs falling off of human you know, like 698 00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:41,040 Speaker 1: still living people, and people suffering from madness thinking that 699 00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:45,359 Speaker 1: spiders were all over their skin, right, I mean you know, yeah, 700 00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:47,239 Speaker 1: I mean, as we see in with the procession of 701 00:41:47,239 --> 00:41:49,280 Speaker 1: the cripples. In other words, I mean, he was very 702 00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:53,440 Speaker 1: interested in the common man and what the common man 703 00:41:53,719 --> 00:41:57,080 Speaker 1: dealt with and suffered with in life, and uh, and 704 00:41:57,160 --> 00:42:01,200 Speaker 1: so that's shading his depiction of these very religious motifs. 705 00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:04,880 Speaker 1: But again, we'll never know for sure, because Bosh doesn't 706 00:42:04,880 --> 00:42:06,960 Speaker 1: say anything about it. The only way he speaks with 707 00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:10,120 Speaker 1: us is through these these these brilliant works of art 708 00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:12,960 Speaker 1: that are still just as powerful today as they were 709 00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:16,520 Speaker 1: back when he was alive. Isn't it strange that such 710 00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:21,400 Speaker 1: a tiny little organism UH that doesn't even directly attack humans, 711 00:42:21,520 --> 00:42:24,160 Speaker 1: you know, like it's target is the rye, Yeah, which 712 00:42:24,200 --> 00:42:28,240 Speaker 1: is collaterally exactly where collateral damage. This little purple witch 713 00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:31,960 Speaker 1: finger extending out of a out of a plant has 714 00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:34,560 Speaker 1: caused so much trouble for humanity and for their you know, 715 00:42:34,640 --> 00:42:38,719 Speaker 1: all the other animals. Indeed, all right, so there you 716 00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:41,920 Speaker 1: have it. Organism in a nutshell. Um, look at the 717 00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:45,840 Speaker 1: way it is UH has influenced our history, our our biology, 718 00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:50,160 Speaker 1: our art and religion. Um. Really fascinating stuff. If you 719 00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:52,000 Speaker 1: would like to see some of these images that we've 720 00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:54,120 Speaker 1: been discussing here, check out the landing page for this 721 00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:57,160 Speaker 1: episode at stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. That's 722 00:42:57,160 --> 00:42:59,040 Speaker 1: also the way you will find all the other episodes 723 00:42:59,080 --> 00:43:02,080 Speaker 1: we've done. Will find videos, you'll find blog posts. You'll 724 00:43:02,120 --> 00:43:05,440 Speaker 1: find links out to our social media accounts such as Twitter, Facebook, 725 00:43:05,480 --> 00:43:08,280 Speaker 1: and Tumbler, and follow us at those accounts. By all means, 726 00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:11,840 Speaker 1: if you use those social media systems, and if you 727 00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:15,160 Speaker 1: have any interesting thoughts about urgotism or any other strange 728 00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:19,480 Speaker 1: psychedelic substances that have somehow penetrated our diet throughout the 729 00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:22,440 Speaker 1: years and throughout the centuries, and want to talk to 730 00:43:22,520 --> 00:43:24,480 Speaker 1: us about it, send us an email at blow the 731 00:43:24,520 --> 00:43:30,840 Speaker 1: Mind at how staff works dot com for more on 732 00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:33,360 Speaker 1: this and thousands of other topics. Does it how staff 733 00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:40,000 Speaker 1: works dot com.