1 00:00:07,680 --> 00:00:10,920 Speaker 1: Welcome to Bloomberg Intelligence Talking Transports podcast. I'm your host, 2 00:00:11,039 --> 00:00:15,600 Speaker 1: Lee Klascal, Senior Freight Transportation Logistics aandlets at Bloomberg Intelligence, 3 00:00:15,760 --> 00:00:19,520 Speaker 1: Bloomberg's in house research arm of almost five hundred analysts 4 00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:23,480 Speaker 1: and strategists. Before diving in a little public service announcement, 5 00:00:23,520 --> 00:00:26,800 Speaker 1: your support is instrumental to keep bringing great guests and 6 00:00:26,880 --> 00:00:31,240 Speaker 1: conversations to you, our listeners, and we need your support. 7 00:00:31,320 --> 00:00:34,839 Speaker 1: So please, if you enjoy this podcast, share it, like it, 8 00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:37,839 Speaker 1: and leave a comment. Also, if you have any ideas 9 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:40,960 Speaker 1: for future episodes or just want to talk transports, please 10 00:00:41,040 --> 00:00:43,960 Speaker 1: hit me up on the Bloomberg terminal, on LinkedIn or 11 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:47,720 Speaker 1: on Twitter at Logistics League. Now on to the episode. 12 00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:51,240 Speaker 1: We're delighted to have General Paul Salva on the pod 13 00:00:51,280 --> 00:00:55,760 Speaker 1: with us today. General Selva is the co founder and 14 00:00:55,840 --> 00:00:59,960 Speaker 1: chief strategy Officer of Defcon AI. He retired from the 15 00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:02,800 Speaker 1: US Air Force in July of twenty nineteen as the 16 00:01:02,840 --> 00:01:06,000 Speaker 1: tenth Vice Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the 17 00:01:06,120 --> 00:01:08,679 Speaker 1: highest ranking officer in the US Air Force and the 18 00:01:08,720 --> 00:01:12,360 Speaker 1: second highest ranking military officer in the nation, a position 19 00:01:12,440 --> 00:01:17,399 Speaker 1: he held from January twenty fifteen. He previously was appointed 20 00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:22,080 Speaker 1: commander of the US Transportation Command, responsible for overseeing all 21 00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:26,080 Speaker 1: global air, land, and sea transportation systems for the entire 22 00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:29,120 Speaker 1: Department of Defense. Prior to this role, he was the 23 00:01:29,120 --> 00:01:32,320 Speaker 1: Commander of the Air Mobility Command and spent thirty nine 24 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:37,040 Speaker 1: years holding numerous positions of staff leadership and command in 25 00:01:37,120 --> 00:01:40,760 Speaker 1: nearly every operational tier of the Air Force. Thank you 26 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:44,119 Speaker 1: so much for joining us today, Paul, how you doing today. 27 00:01:44,760 --> 00:01:47,760 Speaker 2: Thanks for having me. I appreciate the opportunity to come 28 00:01:47,800 --> 00:01:51,360 Speaker 2: on the podcast and talk about our transportation infrastructure and 29 00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:55,600 Speaker 2: the way the military uses it to achieve strategic advantage, 30 00:01:56,040 --> 00:01:59,440 Speaker 2: and deeply appreciative of your recognition of defcan AI. 31 00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:04,360 Speaker 1: Yeah. You know when when when I heard about the 32 00:02:04,360 --> 00:02:06,480 Speaker 1: opportunity to have you on the podcast, I was really 33 00:02:06,520 --> 00:02:08,800 Speaker 1: excited for a lot of different reasons. 34 00:02:09,360 --> 00:02:09,480 Speaker 2: Uh. 35 00:02:09,840 --> 00:02:13,320 Speaker 1: You know, first and foremost, your position in the military 36 00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:17,320 Speaker 1: really provides I think an interesting perspective because you know, 37 00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:19,400 Speaker 1: one thing in the military, or actually a lot of 38 00:02:19,400 --> 00:02:21,359 Speaker 1: things the military is very good at, but one thing 39 00:02:21,440 --> 00:02:24,760 Speaker 1: is logistics, so I wanted your insights there. And then also, 40 00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:28,200 Speaker 1: you know your work at def con AI. It seems 41 00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:30,760 Speaker 1: pretty interesting, not just because you have AI at the 42 00:02:30,840 --> 00:02:34,360 Speaker 1: end of the name, but a lot of interesting stuff 43 00:02:34,400 --> 00:02:37,280 Speaker 1: that you're doing there. Obviously it's a new, new company, 44 00:02:37,440 --> 00:02:40,120 Speaker 1: not a household name. Can you give our listeners a 45 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:42,200 Speaker 1: little taste what def con AI is all about. 46 00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:47,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, i'd love to, and again thanks for bringing that up, 47 00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:50,160 Speaker 2: deaf kind. AI is an is an insights company, and 48 00:02:51,040 --> 00:02:53,079 Speaker 2: it's easy to focus on the last part of the 49 00:02:53,160 --> 00:02:57,360 Speaker 2: name AI. We do use artificial intelligence as we build 50 00:02:57,440 --> 00:03:01,560 Speaker 2: products and software for our customers. Principally, we're focused on 51 00:03:01,760 --> 00:03:07,360 Speaker 2: using three separate techniques all in one package to help 52 00:03:07,360 --> 00:03:11,240 Speaker 2: our customers achieve some advantage in figuring out how to 53 00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:16,840 Speaker 2: optimize networks in environments that might be problematic. So imagine 54 00:03:17,160 --> 00:03:21,320 Speaker 2: whether interrupting your network, or human interference interrupting your network, 55 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:25,280 Speaker 2: or some other catastrophic event disrupting your network. What we're 56 00:03:25,280 --> 00:03:31,960 Speaker 2: trying to achieve is a balance between using classical mathematical optimization, 57 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:39,960 Speaker 2: reasonably sophisticated modeling techniques, and artificial intelligence as an add 58 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:43,640 Speaker 2: on to help our customers actually design networks that are 59 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:48,400 Speaker 2: resilient against the kinds of disruptions that either happen in 60 00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:52,960 Speaker 2: nature or happen because of human discourse. So imagine if 61 00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:55,880 Speaker 2: you will having had a piece of software that, prior 62 00:03:55,920 --> 00:03:59,800 Speaker 2: to Hurricane Oleen could have actually taken the hurricane forecasts, 63 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:04,080 Speaker 2: looked at the path of the hurricane and the transportation 64 00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:08,840 Speaker 2: networks that were in the path of the hurricane and 65 00:04:08,920 --> 00:04:12,560 Speaker 2: helping transportation companies figure out ways to route around them 66 00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:16,880 Speaker 2: without causing major disruption to their distribution networks. That's the 67 00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:21,480 Speaker 2: kind of product that defcon AI brings to our customers 68 00:04:21,640 --> 00:04:24,880 Speaker 2: and principally in the military. So our first custom was 69 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:28,720 Speaker 2: Air Mobility Command that has as part of its mission 70 00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:34,599 Speaker 2: designing complex and resilient air logistics networks. So they have 71 00:04:34,680 --> 00:04:38,920 Speaker 2: the largest collection of airplanes available on the planet, and 72 00:04:38,960 --> 00:04:41,880 Speaker 2: they have a set of networks that are not defined 73 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:49,159 Speaker 2: by specific predictable endpoints. So their logistics network is fluid 74 00:04:49,640 --> 00:04:52,240 Speaker 2: and dynamic, and they need a tool that lets them 75 00:04:52,279 --> 00:04:55,200 Speaker 2: build it in a resilient way where they can dial 76 00:04:55,279 --> 00:04:59,320 Speaker 2: up or dial down the objectives that they have in 77 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:03,839 Speaker 2: managing and executing that network. So imagine being able to 78 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:06,320 Speaker 2: dial up and dial down in a piece of software. 79 00:05:06,960 --> 00:05:10,880 Speaker 2: Effectiveness which is deliver on time every time versus efficiency, 80 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:13,200 Speaker 2: which is can I do this at reduce costs and 81 00:05:13,320 --> 00:05:17,000 Speaker 2: reduce risk and We've developed a suite of software tools 82 00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:19,560 Speaker 2: that let our customers do that. So that's really the 83 00:05:19,720 --> 00:05:24,360 Speaker 2: essence of defcon AI is provide our customers the insights 84 00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:27,680 Speaker 2: they need to build resilient networks in the face of 85 00:05:27,680 --> 00:05:30,640 Speaker 2: whatever might disrupt them downstream. 86 00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:34,359 Speaker 1: Right, and so right now your customers are the government 87 00:05:34,360 --> 00:05:36,000 Speaker 1: and your hope sort of push that out into the 88 00:05:36,040 --> 00:05:39,680 Speaker 1: private sector. Is that or you currently have people in 89 00:05:39,720 --> 00:05:41,000 Speaker 1: the private sector as customers. 90 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:45,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, we absolutely right. We do not have private sector 91 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:49,360 Speaker 2: customers at this point. We have had interest from private 92 00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:54,039 Speaker 2: sector customers who are actually going after the component of 93 00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:57,839 Speaker 2: our software that we describe as resilience. They're really looking 94 00:05:57,880 --> 00:06:01,599 Speaker 2: for ways to predict and and either react to or 95 00:06:01,680 --> 00:06:06,760 Speaker 2: plan ahead of potential events that might disrupt their networks 96 00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:09,360 Speaker 2: and do that at a cost point that's reasonable. 97 00:06:09,920 --> 00:06:13,000 Speaker 1: Right, and could you just educate our listeners. What exactly 98 00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:15,080 Speaker 1: does Air Mobility Command do? 99 00:06:16,240 --> 00:06:20,479 Speaker 2: Yeah? Great question. So Air Mobility Command has several missions. 100 00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:25,599 Speaker 2: It's responsible for providing airlift, so I think cargoing passengers, 101 00:06:26,440 --> 00:06:30,719 Speaker 2: air fueling, which is actually establishing networks of aircraft in 102 00:06:30,760 --> 00:06:33,600 Speaker 2: the air that provide fuel to airplanes moving to and 103 00:06:33,640 --> 00:06:37,440 Speaker 2: from areas of interest. And then Their final mission is 104 00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:40,920 Speaker 2: one that's not well known, but it's incredibly important, and 105 00:06:40,960 --> 00:06:45,719 Speaker 2: that's aero medical evacuation. So it's the capability to pick 106 00:06:45,760 --> 00:06:48,560 Speaker 2: an airplane out of the network anywhere in the network, 107 00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:54,600 Speaker 2: converted into essentially a flying critical care unit, staff it, 108 00:06:55,320 --> 00:06:58,200 Speaker 2: and move patients from place to place in the military 109 00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:00,919 Speaker 2: health network. Those would be the broad missions of Air 110 00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:04,640 Speaker 2: Mobility Command, and they're provided to all of the Joint 111 00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:08,200 Speaker 2: Force and the federal government. So so I think they 112 00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:12,120 Speaker 2: transport Army, Navy, Air Force, Marine Corps, Base Force, Coast Guard, 113 00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:15,640 Speaker 2: and many many elements of the federal government when they 114 00:07:15,680 --> 00:07:18,280 Speaker 2: move in and out of places overseas, and so that 115 00:07:18,520 --> 00:07:23,000 Speaker 2: those are the core missions of air Mobility. 116 00:07:21,520 --> 00:07:25,080 Speaker 1: Very good and could you and so defcon AI. You know, 117 00:07:25,360 --> 00:07:27,360 Speaker 1: it's a relatively new company. 118 00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:31,480 Speaker 2: When was it founded, So we're about almost three years old. 119 00:07:32,480 --> 00:07:37,760 Speaker 2: We were incubated under an umbrella called Redtael Partners, and 120 00:07:37,840 --> 00:07:41,520 Speaker 2: in September of twenty two we actually were completely incorporated 121 00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:46,640 Speaker 2: and functioning and providing contracted work for Air Mobility Command, 122 00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:53,000 Speaker 2: specifically building the simulation environment and the algorithms that support 123 00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:56,120 Speaker 2: a product we call art of Air Mobility, which is 124 00:07:56,240 --> 00:07:59,960 Speaker 2: the optimization software that we delivered to Air Mobility Command 125 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:01,720 Speaker 2: in July of twenty four. 126 00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:06,640 Speaker 1: So not to get too deep into politics, but obviously 127 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:09,560 Speaker 1: there's a new administration coming in to the White House. 128 00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:14,480 Speaker 1: They've talked about downsizing the federal government. The DoD might 129 00:08:14,520 --> 00:08:17,320 Speaker 1: be a target of that. Is that good or bad 130 00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:19,000 Speaker 1: for def con AI. 131 00:08:20,240 --> 00:08:22,000 Speaker 2: I think it's just a challenge that's out there for 132 00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:26,720 Speaker 2: everybody in industries that are trying to support DoD and 133 00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:29,520 Speaker 2: other arms of the federal government. And President Electrump has 134 00:08:29,520 --> 00:08:33,320 Speaker 2: said he's going to make government more efficient. The key 135 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:36,240 Speaker 2: to that question is what does it mean operationally to 136 00:08:36,320 --> 00:08:39,000 Speaker 2: the forces that are actually trying to deploy, employ and 137 00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:43,640 Speaker 2: sustained forces abroad. And because we're focused on the ladder 138 00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:47,840 Speaker 2: of those three, sustaining our forces is about having networks 139 00:08:47,840 --> 00:08:50,960 Speaker 2: that are resilient to disruption. So I don't think that 140 00:08:51,040 --> 00:08:54,600 Speaker 2: the challenge of how you make the Department of Defense 141 00:08:54,679 --> 00:08:59,640 Speaker 2: more efficient is actually a threat or a challenge to 142 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:01,840 Speaker 2: on AI or any of the other companies that are 143 00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:05,280 Speaker 2: out there trying to make the government successful in conflict, 144 00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:07,040 Speaker 2: which is really the core of what we're doing. 145 00:09:08,280 --> 00:09:11,720 Speaker 1: Right And when you're a guy guys positioning this, you 146 00:09:11,720 --> 00:09:15,679 Speaker 1: know this suite of products to the private sector, so 147 00:09:15,720 --> 00:09:21,239 Speaker 1: you're looking to go after you know, trucking, fleets, railroads, airlines, 148 00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:24,360 Speaker 1: and anything that has a network correct And. 149 00:09:24,640 --> 00:09:27,040 Speaker 2: In fact, that's a really good way to describe the question. 150 00:09:27,679 --> 00:09:31,000 Speaker 2: So all of our transportation systems inside of the United 151 00:09:31,040 --> 00:09:36,679 Speaker 2: States and outside are are a collection of very complicated 152 00:09:36,840 --> 00:09:40,360 Speaker 2: nodes and connections, So think links and notes and when 153 00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:42,840 Speaker 2: we when we go after the question of can we 154 00:09:42,960 --> 00:09:46,880 Speaker 2: optimize them first, which is industry is very good at today. 155 00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:52,440 Speaker 2: So finding companies that have have either built in house 156 00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:56,400 Speaker 2: or purchased commercially available tools to let them optimize their 157 00:09:56,440 --> 00:10:00,480 Speaker 2: networks is fairly common. If you ask them the question, 158 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:05,640 Speaker 2: how do you react when that optimization is disrupted? How 159 00:10:05,640 --> 00:10:08,720 Speaker 2: do you think your way through in wargame, for lack 160 00:10:08,760 --> 00:10:12,520 Speaker 2: of a better term, your reactions when disruptions happen in 161 00:10:12,559 --> 00:10:17,400 Speaker 2: your network. Most of them answer we come in and 162 00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:21,559 Speaker 2: rerun the optimization, which we try to re optimize around 163 00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:24,800 Speaker 2: the network that's been disrupted, and we essentially build a 164 00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:30,520 Speaker 2: second network, and usually that comes with additional cost and 165 00:10:31,640 --> 00:10:36,360 Speaker 2: either lost time or lost opportunity. So one of the 166 00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:40,200 Speaker 2: key functions we built into how we provide insights to 167 00:10:40,320 --> 00:10:45,160 Speaker 2: leaders is to not only optimize the network, but then 168 00:10:45,200 --> 00:10:51,040 Speaker 2: to build into the software tools a set of products 169 00:10:51,080 --> 00:10:56,080 Speaker 2: that allow them to essentially wargame potential outcomes if bad 170 00:10:56,120 --> 00:11:00,360 Speaker 2: actors were to present themselves inside of their network, whether 171 00:11:00,400 --> 00:11:03,280 Speaker 2: it's an accident, a natural disaster, or something caused by 172 00:11:03,559 --> 00:11:07,280 Speaker 2: human intervention, what does that look like? And most software 173 00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:11,760 Speaker 2: tools don't allow the users to actually what if inside 174 00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:15,520 Speaker 2: of the software without just running it Again, we've developed 175 00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:17,760 Speaker 2: a set of techniques where the software does a lot 176 00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:21,600 Speaker 2: of that work for the user, with the user essentially 177 00:11:21,640 --> 00:11:25,200 Speaker 2: putting their risk tolerance into the software so that we 178 00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:28,120 Speaker 2: can provide them insights on what choices they might make 179 00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:32,760 Speaker 2: a priori so they are ready for a potential outcome 180 00:11:33,040 --> 00:11:40,800 Speaker 2: that is statistically predictable and has consequence. And so we've 181 00:11:40,920 --> 00:11:44,160 Speaker 2: endeavored to build all that into a single package. So 182 00:11:44,559 --> 00:11:49,280 Speaker 2: in military parlance, that's about understanding risk and regret. What 183 00:11:49,400 --> 00:11:51,640 Speaker 2: risk am I taking with the force that I'm putting 184 00:11:51,679 --> 00:11:54,960 Speaker 2: into this place where they might be challenged, and what 185 00:11:55,040 --> 00:11:58,480 Speaker 2: things am I not doing because I had to invest 186 00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:03,800 Speaker 2: that force in that particular or endeavor. While the department 187 00:12:03,920 --> 00:12:06,840 Speaker 2: has a lot of resources, the resources are not infinite. 188 00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:09,120 Speaker 2: So the example I would give you is if I'm 189 00:12:09,160 --> 00:12:12,640 Speaker 2: an airlift wing commander, and I'm given a task of 190 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:17,800 Speaker 2: moving forces, say from the West Coast to a place 191 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:21,800 Speaker 2: in the western Pacific. Every airplane I put to that 192 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:24,360 Speaker 2: task is an airplane I don't have available at home 193 00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:27,559 Speaker 2: to train crews to be ready for whatever the next 194 00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:30,000 Speaker 2: task is. And being able to measure that risk and 195 00:12:30,040 --> 00:12:33,000 Speaker 2: regret at a micro level and at a macro level 196 00:12:33,160 --> 00:12:37,840 Speaker 2: is really important for our military customer. And the feedback 197 00:12:37,880 --> 00:12:41,839 Speaker 2: we're getting from commercial companies that are interested in the 198 00:12:41,880 --> 00:12:46,320 Speaker 2: same technologies is that they face those same questions. They're 199 00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:51,040 Speaker 2: generally doing it on a profitability versus cost of operations 200 00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:57,600 Speaker 2: set of questions. Those risk and regret questions are almost 201 00:12:57,600 --> 00:13:00,720 Speaker 2: identical to the kinds of questions that military commanders have 202 00:13:00,760 --> 00:13:04,200 Speaker 2: to ask themselves every time they enter an operation, particularly 203 00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:07,760 Speaker 2: long term logistics sustain in operations. So we believe there 204 00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:13,120 Speaker 2: is a pretty good nexus of interest and a commonality 205 00:13:13,120 --> 00:13:16,880 Speaker 2: of the kinds of risks that are being taken. The 206 00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:18,360 Speaker 2: consequences are just different. 207 00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:23,400 Speaker 1: How does the ai I guess learn like the different 208 00:13:23,400 --> 00:13:27,319 Speaker 1: outcomes of the different scenarios, So. 209 00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:30,880 Speaker 2: Great question, obviously, everybody has their own secret sauce where 210 00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:35,000 Speaker 2: where they're using AI. But broadly, there's two categories of 211 00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:39,280 Speaker 2: AI that work inside of our software. One is the 212 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:43,760 Speaker 2: AI that challenges the network, and we've developed a set 213 00:13:43,840 --> 00:13:48,920 Speaker 2: of AI tools that once we run a mathematical optimization 214 00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:53,679 Speaker 2: and actually get the network to the place we want it, 215 00:13:53,679 --> 00:13:58,440 Speaker 2: it describes that set of capabilities to the user. And 216 00:13:58,480 --> 00:14:01,959 Speaker 2: then in the background, we we have an AI tool 217 00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:04,800 Speaker 2: set that challenges that network and attempts to break it 218 00:14:05,559 --> 00:14:12,240 Speaker 2: and essentially wargames inside the network the possibilities of disruptions. 219 00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:16,840 Speaker 2: And then the second set of artificial intelligence is actually 220 00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:21,880 Speaker 2: learning what user preferences are and cataloging those in I'm 221 00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:25,760 Speaker 2: going to use the words fairly antiseptic way. One of 222 00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:30,040 Speaker 2: the realities of transportation and logistics data, which you've probably 223 00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:34,000 Speaker 2: seen across all of your experiences, it can be fairly dirty, 224 00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:36,960 Speaker 2: And by dirty, I mean it's full of human biases. 225 00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:41,560 Speaker 2: A particular dispatcher has a predilection to do something one way, 226 00:14:41,880 --> 00:14:44,840 Speaker 2: and the next dispatcher that comes on duty has a 227 00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:47,160 Speaker 2: predilection to do it the other way. When that's all 228 00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:52,040 Speaker 2: recorded as data, it carries all of those human prejudices. 229 00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:54,760 Speaker 2: What we're attempting to do on the front end of 230 00:14:54,800 --> 00:15:00,720 Speaker 2: our processes is collect all of the user preferences planners 231 00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:06,480 Speaker 2: and operators put into our software and catalog those in 232 00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:11,800 Speaker 2: a fairly unemotional way and in a non value laden way. 233 00:15:11,880 --> 00:15:13,960 Speaker 2: So your opinion of how to run the network and 234 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:18,360 Speaker 2: your preferences are of equal value to mine, but they're 235 00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:23,560 Speaker 2: recorded in with mathematical certainty, and that gives us the 236 00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:28,120 Speaker 2: advantage of being able to learn how in broad ways, 237 00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:34,240 Speaker 2: specific networks behave that's not influenced by the individuals, the 238 00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:37,600 Speaker 2: humans who are making decisions inside the network. And we 239 00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:40,200 Speaker 2: found that to be true across a variety of data sets. 240 00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:44,280 Speaker 2: So we have access to a series of data sets 241 00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:47,840 Speaker 2: that let us look at command and control technician behavior. 242 00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:53,080 Speaker 2: So think dispatch your behavior in a civilian incarnation crew behavior, 243 00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:58,120 Speaker 2: how to cruise behave in specific environments That actually translates 244 00:15:58,160 --> 00:16:03,000 Speaker 2: quite nicely across civilian and commercial and military networks. And 245 00:16:03,040 --> 00:16:06,440 Speaker 2: then and then finally, how does the network itself react 246 00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:09,800 Speaker 2: to those kinds of inputs, And then you can use 247 00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:14,960 Speaker 2: that to derive sort of broad network wide behaviors that 248 00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:16,640 Speaker 2: can be fed back into the software. 249 00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:19,280 Speaker 1: So when you're when you're trying to I guess market 250 00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:23,240 Speaker 1: this these services see of services to the private sector. 251 00:16:23,760 --> 00:16:26,920 Speaker 1: Is there one mode that it kind of relates to 252 00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:31,200 Speaker 1: more than others, Like is it more about air networks 253 00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:34,480 Speaker 1: or it's really about any any sort of transportation network. 254 00:16:35,360 --> 00:16:40,040 Speaker 2: The techniques are actually portable to any network. The challenge 255 00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:43,760 Speaker 2: we took on first was the Air Network for Air 256 00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:47,200 Speaker 2: Mobility Command, because they were a willing customer and came 257 00:16:47,240 --> 00:16:50,520 Speaker 2: to us and asked for our help. We have a 258 00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:57,200 Speaker 2: multimodal network tool that actually combines surface, air and sealift 259 00:16:57,320 --> 00:17:01,200 Speaker 2: all into a bundle, and it's a user look at 260 00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:07,280 Speaker 2: how they might optimize their operational objective inside a multimodal network. 261 00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:11,120 Speaker 2: And so you could you could envision taking constituent pieces 262 00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:14,520 Speaker 2: of that. If you were a trucking company operator, you 263 00:17:14,600 --> 00:17:17,200 Speaker 2: might only be interested in the in the road network 264 00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:21,520 Speaker 2: and trucking network portion of that software. If you were 265 00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:25,080 Speaker 2: a sea lift operator and you wanted to figure out 266 00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:29,719 Speaker 2: how to optimize the utility of your ships in a network, 267 00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:32,880 Speaker 2: you could pick the sea lift part and then more 268 00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:35,919 Speaker 2: broadly that And this is what interests the government is 269 00:17:36,480 --> 00:17:40,280 Speaker 2: if you can model all modes of transportation in one place, 270 00:17:41,119 --> 00:17:45,400 Speaker 2: and apply AI tools to both optimize and make more 271 00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:49,520 Speaker 2: resilient that multimodal network. Then you can run the whole package. 272 00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:53,560 Speaker 2: So where again what we've delivered is focused on air, 273 00:17:54,040 --> 00:17:59,040 Speaker 2: what we've developed has a multimodal capability. The technology, the 274 00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:04,000 Speaker 2: actual discipline of how you do the mathematical optimization, the 275 00:18:05,080 --> 00:18:08,000 Speaker 2: modeling and simulation and the application of AI tools is 276 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:09,400 Speaker 2: actually portable to a variety. 277 00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:13,160 Speaker 1: So I know def con AIS is a new company, 278 00:18:13,240 --> 00:18:15,879 Speaker 1: but do you guys have or provide any sort of 279 00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:18,720 Speaker 1: like long term targets of where you want to be 280 00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:21,359 Speaker 1: in a couple of years as you grow. 281 00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:26,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a great question. So broadly, we have been 282 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:29,280 Speaker 2: implementing what we call the land and expand strategy inside 283 00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:36,000 Speaker 2: the transportation enterprise. That very same strategy is useful to 284 00:18:37,119 --> 00:18:43,359 Speaker 2: logistics and potentially supply chain optimization work. So we're on 285 00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:47,080 Speaker 2: a very deliberate path to broaden our expertise across our 286 00:18:47,080 --> 00:18:51,840 Speaker 2: government customers, to share that expertise with potential commercial customers, 287 00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:54,720 Speaker 2: and each time we bring in a new customer to 288 00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:58,719 Speaker 2: grow the company. So unlike a lot of startups that 289 00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:02,520 Speaker 2: will grow to capacity to build a specific product and 290 00:19:02,560 --> 00:19:05,119 Speaker 2: then go try to market that product. We actually had 291 00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:08,240 Speaker 2: the advantage of working almost the other way, which is 292 00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:11,639 Speaker 2: to bring in contract work, grow the workforce, find the 293 00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:15,080 Speaker 2: technical expertise that can deliver the outcomes we need, and 294 00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:16,240 Speaker 2: grow the company that way. 295 00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:19,280 Speaker 1: Can you just talk about like some of your co founders, 296 00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:21,960 Speaker 1: you know on your website it was pretty impressed with 297 00:19:22,359 --> 00:19:24,320 Speaker 1: your board and some of the people in your management. 298 00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:29,720 Speaker 1: Can you kind of highlight wholes involved in in defcon AI. 299 00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:32,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's a very very broad list, and I 300 00:19:32,960 --> 00:19:35,679 Speaker 2: won't get them all, but the three co founders are 301 00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:39,760 Speaker 2: myself and so I brought to the to the team 302 00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:45,560 Speaker 2: the expertise of having operated in logistics and transportation networks 303 00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:48,960 Speaker 2: for my entire military career. I started out as an 304 00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:51,880 Speaker 2: area fueling pilot. I became an airlift pilot. I ran 305 00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:56,560 Speaker 2: air operations centers for Mobility Command. I was the director 306 00:19:56,600 --> 00:20:01,920 Speaker 2: of operations for all of US transportation commands, so think ships, trains, truck's, automobiles, 307 00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:06,040 Speaker 2: the whole thing. And then at the end of my career, 308 00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:08,520 Speaker 2: I served as the commander of both their Mobility Command 309 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:11,440 Speaker 2: and Transportation Command before I moved onto the Joint Staff 310 00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:13,800 Speaker 2: as the vice chairman. So I brought that sort of 311 00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:20,040 Speaker 2: lifetime of logistics and transportation expertise. The second co founder 312 00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:23,960 Speaker 2: is a gentleman named Israel Brummer. Israel as a computational 313 00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:29,080 Speaker 2: physicist by training. He's a PhD. Spent almost twenty years 314 00:20:29,119 --> 00:20:33,679 Speaker 2: in government service as an analyst, ultimately serving as the 315 00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:38,399 Speaker 2: acting director of the Capabilities and Program Evaluation Division, So 316 00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:44,080 Speaker 2: think of that as DoD's analytical arm. He left government 317 00:20:44,240 --> 00:20:49,920 Speaker 2: to co found Red Cell Partners, which is where the 318 00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:52,840 Speaker 2: third co founder comes in. The third co founder of 319 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:57,560 Speaker 2: defcon AI is Grant. For standing, Grant built his career 320 00:20:57,880 --> 00:21:04,640 Speaker 2: on developing and marketing healthcare software and introducing artificial intelligence 321 00:21:04,720 --> 00:21:10,200 Speaker 2: into the healthcare industry. Grant founded an organization called Red 322 00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:16,960 Speaker 2: Cell Partners specifically to incubate companies that could bring advanced technologies, 323 00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:22,080 Speaker 2: most notably AI and advanced software techniques to healthcare and 324 00:21:22,119 --> 00:21:26,639 Speaker 2: the defense industry. So so that's we're the three co founders, 325 00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:30,119 Speaker 2: and we have surrounded ourselves with a group of advisors 326 00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:35,480 Speaker 2: and a board that have expertise across the transportation industry, 327 00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:44,640 Speaker 2: across commercial and investment industries, and across the DoD analytics enterprise. 328 00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:48,359 Speaker 2: And again, we could spend a whole hour going through 329 00:21:48,359 --> 00:21:51,280 Speaker 2: that set of bios. But it's a it's a pretty 330 00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:54,360 Speaker 2: impressive group of people who actually give the company really 331 00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:59,640 Speaker 2: good guidance and help us govern the process of delivering 332 00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:01,160 Speaker 2: product to customers. 333 00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:04,440 Speaker 1: So, you know, again, one of the reasons why I 334 00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:06,560 Speaker 1: wanted to have you onto the podcast is you know 335 00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:10,439 Speaker 1: your experience in the military. You know you mentioned, uh, 336 00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:13,960 Speaker 1: you know the United States Transportation Command. Could you just 337 00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:17,359 Speaker 1: talk like educate us what is that? What do they do? 338 00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:23,520 Speaker 1: Is it kind of the the organization that the Air 339 00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:27,280 Speaker 1: Mobility Command reports into Just just I know nothing, So 340 00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:29,960 Speaker 1: please make me smarter about it, because it's really fascinating 341 00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:30,199 Speaker 1: to me. 342 00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:35,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a that's an excellent question. So US Transportation 343 00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:38,960 Speaker 2: Command is what the government calls a combatant command, and 344 00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:44,159 Speaker 2: their specific mission set is to provide transportation and logistics 345 00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:50,600 Speaker 2: support to all the services in our joint force and 346 00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:54,680 Speaker 2: federal government entities. And it's and it's all of those together. 347 00:22:56,119 --> 00:23:02,160 Speaker 2: They manage the the fleets and the missions for three 348 00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:06,040 Speaker 2: subordinate commands. So the largest of those is Air Mobility Command. 349 00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:10,080 Speaker 2: Air Mobility Command has a fleet of airlift and air 350 00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:15,520 Speaker 2: refueling aircraft. I don't remember the number, but it's pretty substantial. 351 00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:22,919 Speaker 2: They operate globally and their mission is to provide ready 352 00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:28,280 Speaker 2: airlift to be directed to the priorities that US Transportation 353 00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:32,720 Speaker 2: Command sets. They also have a relationship with all of 354 00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:37,880 Speaker 2: our US flag commercial airlift carriers through a process called 355 00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:42,520 Speaker 2: the Civil Reserve air Fleet, so they can bring to 356 00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:49,440 Speaker 2: bear on any operational problem both military aircraft and commercial 357 00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:53,880 Speaker 2: aircraft on contracts. The command is about one hundred and 358 00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:59,560 Speaker 2: thirty four thousand strong airmen who represent the crews, the maintainers, 359 00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:03,520 Speaker 2: the support structure, and all of the aerial port operators 360 00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:07,560 Speaker 2: in the Air Force, Active, Guard, and Reserve, and they're 361 00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:12,639 Speaker 2: distributed across all three components. The second major command under 362 00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:17,080 Speaker 2: Air Mobile or under US Transportation Command is the Army's 363 00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:22,040 Speaker 2: Surface Deployment and Distribution Command. They do all of the 364 00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:30,840 Speaker 2: movement planning and coordination and execution of surface transportation, so 365 00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:35,720 Speaker 2: I think trucks, trains, and ships to and from anywhere 366 00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:39,080 Speaker 2: in the world. So anybody that deploys from the United 367 00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:44,120 Speaker 2: States overseas, if they ship something, it's manifested, planned, organized, 368 00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:48,639 Speaker 2: and moved by Surface Deployment and Distribution Command. And then 369 00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:53,240 Speaker 2: the third major component command is Military Sealift Command and 370 00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:58,160 Speaker 2: Military Sealift Command operates a fleet of ready reserve ships 371 00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:02,720 Speaker 2: think large roll on roll off ships that are positioned 372 00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:06,160 Speaker 2: at strategic ports around the country. They're on a short 373 00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:10,919 Speaker 2: notice leash about five to ten days notification from what 374 00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:13,119 Speaker 2: they call labor thing, which is tied up to the 375 00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:18,280 Speaker 2: pier too, ready to load and ship out with military cargo. 376 00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:21,200 Speaker 2: So those are the three big component commands of US 377 00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:24,600 Speaker 2: Transportation Commands. So if you think of US Transportation Command 378 00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:29,840 Speaker 2: as as the corporate entity that brokers all of that 379 00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:34,879 Speaker 2: lift in its multimodal incarnations to most efficiently and effectively 380 00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:39,440 Speaker 2: move our forces into or out of a conflict, into 381 00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:42,560 Speaker 2: or out of an area of interest. And it is 382 00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:45,920 Speaker 2: their job to provide the command and control of the 383 00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:50,479 Speaker 2: prioritization and ultimately the execution orders, so the delivery orders 384 00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:52,840 Speaker 2: for anything that moves. 385 00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:57,440 Speaker 1: So what is the biggest challenge logistically for the military. 386 00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:05,120 Speaker 2: That's another excellent questions. So in the years between World 387 00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:08,160 Speaker 2: War two and and the end of our of our 388 00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:14,160 Speaker 2: operations in Iraq and Afghanistan, the probably the biggest challenge 389 00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:18,240 Speaker 2: was just keeping the network moving. Again, it's not a 390 00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:20,919 Speaker 2: network that's made up of fixed nodes, so you're constantly 391 00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:26,080 Speaker 2: adjusting and moving things. But there were very few hard 392 00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:30,720 Speaker 2: challenges to the network. It's not like people were trying 393 00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:33,880 Speaker 2: to break the network. There was the occasional attack here 394 00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:36,479 Speaker 2: and there, and not to be little the risk that 395 00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:40,600 Speaker 2: people took to actually deliver things into Iraq and Afghanistan. 396 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:46,120 Speaker 2: The fact of the matter is very predictable, stable network. 397 00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:50,280 Speaker 2: So the challenge for all of that time was actually 398 00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:53,800 Speaker 2: the decreasing availability of lift. If you if you were 399 00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:56,800 Speaker 2: to map, and I'm sure you've done this as your 400 00:26:56,840 --> 00:27:00,160 Speaker 2: interest is in logistics and transportation, if you look at 401 00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:07,400 Speaker 2: the number of US flagged ships in actual operations from 402 00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:11,600 Speaker 2: the mid nineteen eighties to today, it's less than a 403 00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:13,760 Speaker 2: quarter of what it was back in the mid eighties. 404 00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:17,600 Speaker 2: The US flagged fleet, the people we depend on to 405 00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:21,200 Speaker 2: make our network work, represent a half of one percent 406 00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:27,600 Speaker 2: of the gross tonnage available in international over ocean trade. 407 00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:31,400 Speaker 2: And we can boast that well, there are just over 408 00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:35,480 Speaker 2: one hundred of those ships, and that's a good that's 409 00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:41,119 Speaker 2: an interesting number. That would compare to the fleet in China, 410 00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:46,320 Speaker 2: which is four thousand plus ships, almost five thousand, the 411 00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:50,040 Speaker 2: fleet in Greece, which is fifteen hundred or so ships. 412 00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:53,240 Speaker 2: The Japanese fleet, which is thirty eight hundred ships, we 413 00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:57,119 Speaker 2: have one hundred and some. So one of the biggest 414 00:27:57,200 --> 00:28:01,600 Speaker 2: challenges was is the sort of decreasing of availability of 415 00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:06,560 Speaker 2: heavy bulk over ocean lift, because that is an absolute 416 00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:10,160 Speaker 2: requirement for the nation to be able to deploy an 417 00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:17,879 Speaker 2: employee force at distance, So that is a particularly daunting challenge. 418 00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:20,919 Speaker 2: With the fact that there are so few ships comes 419 00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:26,000 Speaker 2: the fact that the pool of people to operate them 420 00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:31,520 Speaker 2: is a rapidly diminishing pool. So our merchant mariners, the 421 00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:36,720 Speaker 2: civilian sailors who sail those ships, are a decreasing pool 422 00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:42,080 Speaker 2: of expertise, and because our fleet tends to be pretty old, 423 00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:45,680 Speaker 2: we're not actually bringing in the highest tech ships that 424 00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:53,280 Speaker 2: are available. The Military Sea Liift Command Ready Reserve fleet 425 00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:58,040 Speaker 2: is twenty plus years old as an average, which means 426 00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:00,680 Speaker 2: there are some ships that are substantially older than twenty 427 00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:03,720 Speaker 2: years and very few that are younger than twenty years. 428 00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:08,720 Speaker 2: So a portion of those are steam operated ships. Finding 429 00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:13,320 Speaker 2: engineers who are qualified to actually crew those ships, it 430 00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:17,160 Speaker 2: is a diminishing population. They do very few sea days, 431 00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:20,520 Speaker 2: so to get a sailor to keep their certifications with 432 00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:24,760 Speaker 2: the Coast guard they have to do ship sea days 433 00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:29,240 Speaker 2: actually underway. We only exercise those ships two or three 434 00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:31,840 Speaker 2: times a year. The rest of the time they're tied 435 00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:35,000 Speaker 2: up to the pier. That doesn't help those mariners keep 436 00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:38,320 Speaker 2: their certifications, so they move from ship to ship, and 437 00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:41,840 Speaker 2: in industry that's not uncommon. A sailor will sign up 438 00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:45,680 Speaker 2: for a three or four month voyage on a ship 439 00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:48,240 Speaker 2: and then wherever they are in the world, the shipping 440 00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:51,000 Speaker 2: company will fly them home and replace them with somebody else. 441 00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:55,080 Speaker 2: That is not the way the US Navy operates their ships. 442 00:29:55,120 --> 00:30:01,640 Speaker 2: It's not the way that allows them the operational certainty 443 00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:03,840 Speaker 2: of how the ship's going to be run. But it's 444 00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:06,960 Speaker 2: a reality in the industry. So there's also along with 445 00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:09,640 Speaker 2: the decreasing number of ships, there's a decreasing number of 446 00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:13,160 Speaker 2: US citizens who are willing to actually go out and 447 00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:16,840 Speaker 2: crew those ships, and those are significant challenges across the network. 448 00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:20,760 Speaker 1: Are there any fixes, I mean, besides throwing money at 449 00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:22,760 Speaker 1: the problem. 450 00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:26,720 Speaker 2: Well, first is figuring out how to contract and pay 451 00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:31,400 Speaker 2: the mariners who actually crew our ships, both active duty 452 00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:37,960 Speaker 2: Navy ships or think operational Navy ships and our commercial fleet. 453 00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:41,920 Speaker 2: The commercial fleet actually has has a little bit easier 454 00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:49,040 Speaker 2: roto because because they comply with the normal employment processes 455 00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:54,760 Speaker 2: that unions who represent the sailors bring to them as 456 00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:57,040 Speaker 2: their preferred way of operating. So when they sign a 457 00:30:57,040 --> 00:30:58,840 Speaker 2: contract for somebody to go out for three months, they 458 00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:05,560 Speaker 2: go out for three months. The building that pool requires 459 00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:08,200 Speaker 2: you to do several things. One is have an education network, 460 00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:11,600 Speaker 2: which which the maritime industry has a pretty good network 461 00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:14,720 Speaker 2: to do the education. The second is to recruit them 462 00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:19,600 Speaker 2: at wage levels that are acceptable for the kind of 463 00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:22,080 Speaker 2: work they're being asked to do. So when you tell 464 00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:24,600 Speaker 2: a salor he's going to go to sea for three months, 465 00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:27,920 Speaker 2: they expect to be home at the end of three months. Right, 466 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:30,400 Speaker 2: how do you How do you facilitate that and make 467 00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:36,320 Speaker 2: it work. But broadly, recruiting and building wages in that 468 00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:40,360 Speaker 2: makes sense is actually an important dynamic. It's not so 469 00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:43,200 Speaker 2: much throwing money at the problem. It's understanding what you 470 00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:46,360 Speaker 2: need to invest to get the right expertise aboard the 471 00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:51,040 Speaker 2: ships to make sure they can operate. The second is 472 00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:53,040 Speaker 2: just keeping up with the technology. I think that's a 473 00:31:53,080 --> 00:32:00,160 Speaker 2: really important piece of how the industry stays current. It 474 00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:05,280 Speaker 2: is less true about government owned ships. So government owned 475 00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:10,080 Speaker 2: ships again tend to be substantially older, substantially older tech, 476 00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:14,400 Speaker 2: and that's not tech that young merchant mariners want to 477 00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:18,320 Speaker 2: become capable on because if pigeonholes them into that sector 478 00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:22,400 Speaker 2: of the market, and they tend to want to be 479 00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:25,360 Speaker 2: more flexible to be able to move from ship to ship, 480 00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:27,160 Speaker 2: cruise to cruise, mission to mission. 481 00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:30,960 Speaker 1: Right, you know in your time in the military, you 482 00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:36,200 Speaker 1: know you're obviously active during a lot of conflicts. What 483 00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:40,120 Speaker 1: did you learn, I guess from supporting the operations in 484 00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:43,800 Speaker 1: Iraq and Afghanistan? Were there any like big takeaways from 485 00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:46,560 Speaker 1: you that from those experiences. 486 00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:51,160 Speaker 2: I think two are we're most striking. One is we 487 00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:56,280 Speaker 2: always underestimate the risk of moving things to deployed forces. 488 00:32:56,440 --> 00:33:00,600 Speaker 2: And when I say we, I mean generally the leadership 489 00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:04,000 Speaker 2: and I was part of the leadership and the operational 490 00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:07,720 Speaker 2: planners who do the planning for movement of specifically logistics 491 00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:12,400 Speaker 2: tend to underestimate the risk that's involved in making the 492 00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:22,440 Speaker 2: network work. The second is appreciating how unpredictable human behavior 493 00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:28,440 Speaker 2: can be when when the system is under stress, humans 494 00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:31,120 Speaker 2: do things they think are going to actually make the 495 00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:35,800 Speaker 2: system work better, and it's very unpredictable. What those actual 496 00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:38,920 Speaker 2: outcomes are going to be. In the military, we train 497 00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:41,560 Speaker 2: for that, right, So we spend a lot of time 498 00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:44,040 Speaker 2: trying to train people under stress, so we can predict 499 00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:47,440 Speaker 2: how they're going to behave when they're faced with a 500 00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:55,560 Speaker 2: set of circumstances that they hadn't foreseen. But the transportation 501 00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:59,800 Speaker 2: network is a mix of military and commercial capabilities, so 502 00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:02,800 Speaker 2: it's not always clear how all the entities are going 503 00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:07,400 Speaker 2: to react inside that network when it's under stress. The way, 504 00:34:07,520 --> 00:34:09,560 Speaker 2: I learned that the hard way, but not in conflict. 505 00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:12,239 Speaker 2: I learned it the hard way when the government and 506 00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:16,600 Speaker 2: civilian industry were trying to react to the outcomes of 507 00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:23,359 Speaker 2: Hurricane Katrina. Everybody was doing their level best to do 508 00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:25,640 Speaker 2: the right things to make sure that the people that 509 00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:29,560 Speaker 2: were affected by that hurricane were receiving the disaster relief 510 00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:32,200 Speaker 2: that they needed, and in spite of everybody doing their 511 00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:35,799 Speaker 2: level best, we got it more wrong than right for 512 00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:38,520 Speaker 2: the first few weeks of that recovery operation. It took 513 00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:42,879 Speaker 2: a long time to unravel that, and so understanding how 514 00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:47,279 Speaker 2: the unpredictable pieces of the network are going to work 515 00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:50,280 Speaker 2: for me is a really hard lesson learned, and generally 516 00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:52,520 Speaker 2: that's those are human decisions. 517 00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:55,799 Speaker 1: Right, Okay, I guess on a lighter note, you know 518 00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:58,640 Speaker 1: the military probably sent you all over the world. Do 519 00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:00,720 Speaker 1: you have a favorite place where the force senta. 520 00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:03,120 Speaker 2: I'm not sure I have a favorite place, because I 521 00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:13,160 Speaker 2: don't have an unfavorite place. I had several assignments across 522 00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:15,440 Speaker 2: my career, and I got to fly a ton of 523 00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:17,920 Speaker 2: different airplanes, and so I spent a substantial part of 524 00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:21,640 Speaker 2: my career as an operator. My operator, I was a pilot, 525 00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:24,760 Speaker 2: and I love doing that. Did it all over the world, 526 00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:28,800 Speaker 2: stationed principally in the United States. If somebody tried to 527 00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:30,560 Speaker 2: put a pin in a map, they'd say, well, I 528 00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:32,800 Speaker 2: love the Pacific Northwest the most because that's where I 529 00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:36,760 Speaker 2: choose to live. But I didn't have a bad assignment, 530 00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:39,880 Speaker 2: so it's hard to say I had a particularly favorite one. 531 00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:43,360 Speaker 2: I will say this though, the places in my career 532 00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:47,600 Speaker 2: where I learned the most were actually later on in 533 00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:50,800 Speaker 2: my career. So I mentioned that I was the director 534 00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:54,000 Speaker 2: or the commander at that time of the Air Mobility 535 00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:56,760 Speaker 2: Air Operations Center. For the first time in my career, 536 00:35:56,800 --> 00:36:02,120 Speaker 2: I saw the whole network that Ability Command operates globally 537 00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:07,319 Speaker 2: represented in one place where I could see all of 538 00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:10,839 Speaker 2: the variables that were happening inside the network, and what 539 00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:13,400 Speaker 2: I found was that's an environment that I really enjoy 540 00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:18,480 Speaker 2: working in. The idea of taking a globally distributed network 541 00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:20,239 Speaker 2: and trying to figure out the best ways to do 542 00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:23,200 Speaker 2: missions inside of it were something that really intrigued me. 543 00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:27,160 Speaker 2: And from that point on until I retired, I spent 544 00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:31,040 Speaker 2: most of my career, almost the second twenty years of 545 00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:36,080 Speaker 2: my career doing exactly that in both the Air Mobility 546 00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:39,720 Speaker 2: Command and US Transportation Command. Networks. Got to operate across 547 00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:42,200 Speaker 2: the depth and breadth of both of them, got to 548 00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:45,399 Speaker 2: build them around the world, react to crises all over 549 00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:49,560 Speaker 2: the place, and I just I thrived in that environment. 550 00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:53,520 Speaker 2: I really enjoyed it. And so the latter half of 551 00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:55,560 Speaker 2: my career is the place where I sort of built 552 00:36:55,560 --> 00:37:00,840 Speaker 2: this intellectual affection for complex networks and make them work better. 553 00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:03,200 Speaker 1: Is there something you miss about the military now that 554 00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:04,320 Speaker 1: you're a civilian. 555 00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:08,680 Speaker 2: I think the thing that I miss and I would 556 00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:11,600 Speaker 2: bet almost all of my colleagues would say the same thing, 557 00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:15,680 Speaker 2: is the assumed familiarity that comes with being in the military. 558 00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:21,040 Speaker 2: There's a level of trust, a level of affiliation that 559 00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:24,000 Speaker 2: comes with being around people who are in uniform. People 560 00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:27,319 Speaker 2: call it the camaraderie. I actually go to a much 561 00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:32,120 Speaker 2: more fundamental level. It's the basic assumption of trust that 562 00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:36,680 Speaker 2: comes in every engagement. When you enter a room with 563 00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:39,360 Speaker 2: your colleagues, you know you're all there to achieve a mission. 564 00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:41,160 Speaker 2: You know you're going to work together to get it done, 565 00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:44,279 Speaker 2: and you trust at a very fundamental level that you're 566 00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:47,600 Speaker 2: all focused on the same outcomes. I've experienced the same 567 00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:51,040 Speaker 2: thing outside of uniform, but not at the same fundamental level. 568 00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:54,400 Speaker 2: I can tell you in all of the things that 569 00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:58,160 Speaker 2: I do since I've retired, I have this sort of 570 00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:01,759 Speaker 2: fundamental assumption of positive intent. You know, you and I 571 00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:03,879 Speaker 2: have the same objective because we're working in the same 572 00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:07,000 Speaker 2: place for the same set of reasons. But the fundamental 573 00:38:07,040 --> 00:38:10,400 Speaker 2: level of trust that goes all the way to the 574 00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:12,400 Speaker 2: point of I would put my life in your hands 575 00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:15,360 Speaker 2: if I needed to. That doesn't exist outside of the 576 00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:16,719 Speaker 2: Uniform services. 577 00:38:17,080 --> 00:38:19,600 Speaker 1: So, you know, I like to ask this of the 578 00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:23,080 Speaker 1: guests on the podcast. Is there a book about transportation 579 00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:27,920 Speaker 1: or leadership or technology that you've read over the years 580 00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:30,319 Speaker 1: that really has kind of stuck with you. 581 00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:35,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a that's a really interesting question said, there 582 00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:39,279 Speaker 2: are there are a handful of books on leadership, but 583 00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:43,680 Speaker 2: I think two really good ones are actually biographies of 584 00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:48,560 Speaker 2: Abraham Lincoln. One is called Team of Rivals. It was 585 00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:52,839 Speaker 2: written by I think Doris Goodwin. That talks about how 586 00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:57,040 Speaker 2: he thought about bringing into his government at a period 587 00:38:57,080 --> 00:38:59,680 Speaker 2: of crisis people who did not think the same way 588 00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:04,759 Speaker 2: about problem across his whole administration, and it's just a 589 00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:07,919 Speaker 2: fascinating story. But in the background of that one, there's 590 00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:10,360 Speaker 2: a there's another piece on Lincoln. It's written by a 591 00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:14,520 Speaker 2: guy named Ron Wilson. It's called The Eloquent President, and 592 00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:19,399 Speaker 2: it actually takes a part Lincoln's speeches and picks out 593 00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:22,520 Speaker 2: of them the leadership traits that he was trying to 594 00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:26,040 Speaker 2: get people to focus on, and the way he delivered them, 595 00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:30,400 Speaker 2: both physically because of the way his voice worked, but 596 00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:34,280 Speaker 2: also emotionally and the places where he pointed specific comments. 597 00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:38,040 Speaker 2: So I think those are two particularly good ones. The 598 00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:40,759 Speaker 2: tech side is harder and the transportation side is even 599 00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:45,520 Speaker 2: more difficult than that. But there's two books that give 600 00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:49,120 Speaker 2: you kind of some interesting context. One is called Monsoon 601 00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:54,120 Speaker 2: by Bob Kaplan, and it's actually a story of the 602 00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:57,960 Speaker 2: strategic value of the Indian Ocean, but not the Indian 603 00:39:57,960 --> 00:40:00,720 Speaker 2: Ocean itself, but the weather patterns and the Indian Ocean, 604 00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:04,799 Speaker 2: how they affected Chinese influence over the world, and how 605 00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:10,160 Speaker 2: we are new entrants in that environment. We like to 606 00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:12,399 Speaker 2: think of ourselves as we've been in Indian Ocean since 607 00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:15,840 Speaker 2: the early nineteen hundreds. The Chinese have been in Indian 608 00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:19,680 Speaker 2: Ocean since the early eleven hundreds. It's the trade route 609 00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:22,719 Speaker 2: that made them successful. So when you think about that 610 00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:27,680 Speaker 2: in context and the relationships, the cultural and historical relationships 611 00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:31,640 Speaker 2: that exist, causes you ask some interesting strategic questions about 612 00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:35,360 Speaker 2: what does that mean? You can apply that globally, but 613 00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:39,040 Speaker 2: it's a really effective one. And then one I read recently, 614 00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:41,920 Speaker 2: which is one I would suggest to everyone, is a 615 00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:45,200 Speaker 2: book called The Age of Danger. It's written by a 616 00:40:45,239 --> 00:40:49,880 Speaker 2: guy named Andrew Hohen and by Tom Shanker who's a journalist, 617 00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:56,640 Speaker 2: and they look at the how technology is being being 618 00:40:56,719 --> 00:41:01,919 Speaker 2: brought into the strategic world of today, where you think 619 00:41:01,920 --> 00:41:05,759 Speaker 2: about Russia and China as major actors, or ran in 620 00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:10,520 Speaker 2: North Korea as secondary actors, terrorists and others in regions 621 00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:14,000 Speaker 2: of the world that could cause harm, and what it 622 00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:18,800 Speaker 2: means to our leaders to bring new ways of thinking 623 00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:21,760 Speaker 2: strategically into that problem set, and how we might apply 624 00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:26,640 Speaker 2: technologies to solve some of those problems. So, if I 625 00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:29,040 Speaker 2: had to list a handful, those would be the ones 626 00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:31,200 Speaker 2: I would say, if you haven't read those four there were. 627 00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:33,520 Speaker 2: Each one of them is well read in its own right. 628 00:41:34,040 --> 00:41:37,359 Speaker 1: I have a busy week and ahead of me. So 629 00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:39,480 Speaker 1: what do you do for fun? Do you still fly? 630 00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:41,600 Speaker 1: I'm assuming I don't. 631 00:41:41,719 --> 00:41:45,160 Speaker 2: Actually, so when I retired, my wife and I took 632 00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:50,560 Speaker 2: a year and basically walked. We love to hike in camp, 633 00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:54,880 Speaker 2: so we walked the Appalachian Trail, we walked trail in Spain, 634 00:41:56,000 --> 00:41:57,840 Speaker 2: did a lot of smaller walks. I think we clocked 635 00:41:57,880 --> 00:42:01,239 Speaker 2: a little over three thousand miles in a year. And 636 00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:03,640 Speaker 2: when we're not walking in camp and I actually build 637 00:42:03,680 --> 00:42:05,200 Speaker 2: and play acoustic guitars. 638 00:42:05,719 --> 00:42:07,400 Speaker 1: All right, Well, the next time I have you on, 639 00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:10,560 Speaker 1: I'm set out some time for you to play some 640 00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:11,359 Speaker 1: music for us. 641 00:42:11,680 --> 00:42:15,040 Speaker 2: I didn't say I played well. 642 00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:17,080 Speaker 1: Well, I really want to thank you for your time. Jay. 643 00:42:17,120 --> 00:42:19,040 Speaker 1: This is a great conversation. Paul, Thank you. 644 00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:22,200 Speaker 2: Lee, Thanks thanks for your insights and thanks for sharing 645 00:42:22,239 --> 00:42:23,120 Speaker 2: them on the podcast. 646 00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:26,040 Speaker 1: And I want to thank you for tuning in. If 647 00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:28,840 Speaker 1: you liked the episode, please subscribe and leave a review. 648 00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:32,160 Speaker 1: We've lined up a number of great guests for the podcast, 649 00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:37,480 Speaker 1: so check back to hear conversations with C suite executives, shippers, regulators, 650 00:42:37,520 --> 00:42:40,560 Speaker 1: and decision makers within the freight markets. Also, if you 651 00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:43,359 Speaker 1: want to learn more about the freight transportation markets, check 652 00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:45,560 Speaker 1: out our work on the Bloomberg Terminal, at bi go 653 00:42:46,040 --> 00:42:49,040 Speaker 1: and on social media. Take care and let's keep those 654 00:42:49,040 --> 00:42:50,080 Speaker 1: supply chains moving.