Speaker 1: Folks, if you live in the United States, and if
Speaker 1: you've ever been to a big city, you have doubtlessly
Speaker 1: seen a lot of flyers. One of those flyers is
Speaker 1: inevitably going to be for a performance called Shen.
Speaker 2: Yun n on the Moon Baby.
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is a This one gets a special shout
Speaker 1: out to a lot of our friends in the Chinese diaspora,
Speaker 1: notably our good friend and phenomenal artist jun Yi Leo,
Speaker 1: who actually Nola and I collect some of Juni's art.
Speaker 1: We can't say enough good about it. We have not
Speaker 1: asked Junii about the parents of shen Yun, an organization
Speaker 1: called Following Gong, which is a religious movement to its
Speaker 1: proponents and champions, a cult to its critics, and a
Speaker 1: terrorist organization to the government of China. Ya.
Speaker 3: He kind of nailed it there, ben I, dude, just
Speaker 3: want to point I was just talking to my girlfriend
Speaker 3: about shen Yun the other night and how ubiquitous their
Speaker 3: marketing is and how it's just as ubiquitous is in
Speaker 3: Atlanta as it is your New York city, And she
Speaker 3: pointed out to me that there are quite a few
Speaker 3: Shinyan parody troops doing shows and like drag shows revolving
Speaker 3: around kind of campy parodies of the old China before
Speaker 3: communism theme that Shinyun tends to promote.
Speaker 4: Is this a thing? Can you guys recall? Is this
Speaker 4: the thing that South Park has covered?
Speaker 3: I think they must have in some way, least in
Speaker 3: terms of the ubiquity of the advertising, but I don't
Speaker 3: know if they did a full episode. But it's so
Speaker 3: meme worthy, Like that's why I say shenyuon on the Moon.
Speaker 3: I think I saw a meme where it was like
Speaker 3: a billboard of Shenyun like on you know, just the
Speaker 3: surface of Mars or something.
Speaker 4: I'm just going back through the official Shenyun dot org
Speaker 4: website and looking at this huge write up they have
Speaker 4: with titles within this article like why the CCP is
Speaker 4: after us? It goes over their beliefs, it goes over
Speaker 4: things that the Chinese Communist Party has officially done to
Speaker 4: like thwart them from being able to perform things like that.
Speaker 3: Well, because again, like we'll talk about this in the episode,
Speaker 3: but their big thing is promoting you know a certain
Speaker 3: part of Chinese cultural history that does not involve communism,
Speaker 3: which I think is real, is a real bone of
Speaker 3: contention with the communist regime, saying that they're in some way,
Speaker 3: you know, disrespecting the current, you know, state of affairs.
Speaker 4: Is that is that right, Ben?
Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, you're absolutely on the money there in oels.
Speaker 1: Since nineteen ninety nine, the government of China has made concerted,
Speaker 1: serious efforts to suppress this movement, the spiritual practice, whether
Speaker 1: you call it Fallunnglong or following Daffa. And there have
Speaker 1: been accusations of very evil things up to an including
Speaker 1: oregon harvesting. So we recorded this back in twenty twenty one.
Speaker 1: We would love to hear your thoughts, especially if you
Speaker 1: yourself have ever attended a shen Yun performance. Let's roll the.
Speaker 5: Tape from UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History
Speaker 5: is riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now
Speaker 5: or learn this stuff they don't want you to know.
Speaker 5: A production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 4: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,
Speaker 4: my name is Noah.
Speaker 1: They call me Ben. We're joined as always with our
Speaker 1: super producer Paul. Mission control decands, most importantly, you are you.
Speaker 1: You are here, and that makes this stuff they don't
Speaker 1: want you to know. We'll started a weird but very
Speaker 1: human direction here. Who hasn't amongst us in the audience
Speaker 1: today felt lost at one point or another. Think about it,
Speaker 1: washing the dishes, you're working, maybe on a repetitive job,
Speaker 1: or you're stuck in traffic. You heard the same song
Speaker 1: three times, You're walking up the street, the same path
Speaker 1: you always take, and it hits you all the suddenly.
Speaker 1: What does it all mean? Why are we even here?
Speaker 1: What's the point? Is existence? Just like a check mark
Speaker 1: participation grade?
Speaker 4: Yes, yes, yes, all of those?
Speaker 2: Okay, great, me too.
Speaker 3: That's a bleak, fellas that a bleak?
Speaker 1: Oh no, you haven't hit that yet?
Speaker 3: Oh god, yes, are you kidding me? I thought I
Speaker 3: use my GPS when I go down the street to
Speaker 3: the store. I mean, okay, that's a different kind of loss.
Speaker 3: But absolutely, of course, I think we've all been there.
Speaker 1: And this existential crisis is one of the great unifiers,
Speaker 1: I would argue of the human species. It draws a
Speaker 1: lot of people to structured belief systems, religions at any type,
Speaker 1: humanitarian work, you know, secular stuff too, even self improvement
Speaker 1: on a small scale, like hey, I'm going to exercise more,
Speaker 1: I'm going to take up meditation, I might get a
Speaker 1: new hobby. Heck, I'll take that improv class. These are
Speaker 1: all answers to, you know, the scary questions of mortality
Speaker 1: and meaning, and there is no shortage of individuals or
Speaker 1: organizations that are more than willing to give the loss
Speaker 1: and the troubled a feeling of serenity, fulfillment, and purpose.
Speaker 1: This brings us to today's episode, the winding mysterious and
Speaker 1: at times troubling story of something known as the Falloun Gong.
Speaker 1: In English, this literal translation would be something like law
Speaker 1: will practice, but it's a tricky thing to translate into English,
Speaker 1: so for now we're just going to say following Gong,
Speaker 1: So breathe deep. Here are the facts.
Speaker 4: So following Gong is also known as follown Dafa, and
Speaker 4: if you look at some of the official websites, you
Speaker 4: will see following Dafa a lot. It describes itself as
Speaker 4: a spiritual practice, as many has been just described earlier.
Speaker 4: It's rooted in Buddhist tradition and it consists of two
Speaker 4: primary components that feel pretty good. But the first one
Speaker 4: is self improvement through the study of teachings, and like
Speaker 4: many organizations, fallen Gong Fellendolpha has its own set of
Speaker 4: books and writings and teachings, and these are mainly about
Speaker 4: the qualities of the universe, the underlying stuff, the stuff
Speaker 4: that is that makes up existence, you and me, and
Speaker 4: the connection to everything, Truth, compassion, and forbearance. If you
Speaker 4: go on their website, it says very specifically truth, compassion, forbearance.
Speaker 1: The second component is going to be pretty I would
Speaker 1: say pretty familiar to a lot of us, and that
Speaker 1: is a gentle exercise and meditation. By gentle exercise we
Speaker 1: mean what is sometimes called low impact exercise. So this
Speaker 1: is not CrossFit push yourself past your limits stuff. This
Speaker 1: is stretchy, this is slow, This is meditative. This is
Speaker 1: not meant to break your bones. According to all the
Speaker 1: sources you can look at, including official Following Gong sources,
Speaker 1: it was developed by a guy named Li hong Shi.
Speaker 1: He says that he was the recipient of teachings from
Speaker 1: more than twenty masters Buddhism and Chigong, from which Followungong
Speaker 1: is descended. He tested this. According to him, he tested
Speaker 1: this practice this system out with several followers aka disciples
Speaker 1: first and then eventually brought it public in May of
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety two, so this is already we know this
Speaker 1: is a very new religion, even if the claims about
Speaker 1: its ancient roots are true. Chikong is We talked about
Speaker 1: this earlier, I think in an episode called what is Chi?
Speaker 1: But chigong is primarily composed of these frankly amazing breathing exercises.
Speaker 1: But Lee added something else to the mix. He added
Speaker 1: stories in here, accounts, anecdotes, a world full of fantastical things,
Speaker 1: and a world with hints of a forthcoming apocalypse, and
Speaker 1: his books became bestsellers. I don't want to poison the
Speaker 1: well here, but some of this path has you know,
Speaker 1: not for nothing have outside observers said. This bears some
Speaker 1: similarities with other leaders of movements like l. Ron Hubbard,
Speaker 1: who also also wrote extensively. But this was accepted by
Speaker 1: the government of China. It was accepted by the Chigong
Speaker 1: bodies right, because there are many Chigong movements, so the
Speaker 1: Chinese National Chigong Scientific Research Association in that same time
Speaker 1: period of nineteen ninety two, they also said, okay, yeah,
Speaker 1: we dig it, you know what I mean, full speed ahead.
Speaker 4: Ben, Ben, Can we just really quickly hit on those
Speaker 4: two books?
Speaker 1: Yeah, totally. The first two were Schwan Falung and Fallun Gong.
Speaker 4: Uh.
Speaker 1: These are kind of primers to the philosophy. Here is
Speaker 1: what we're doing based on what I learned. Here is
Speaker 1: the goal of what we're doing, you know what I mean?
Speaker 1: Filled with again, filled with stories that did not ordinarily
Speaker 1: occur in previous previous traditions of this sort.
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, And I just want to go back to
Speaker 4: your el Ron Hubbard comparison here. It's interesting because in
Speaker 4: Eleron's writings he kind of held off on the aliens
Speaker 4: and the the stuff that went beyond some of the
Speaker 4: self healing.
Speaker 2: When you paid your way in far enough. Yeah.
Speaker 4: But but in these books, it's just right there in
Speaker 4: front of you as soon as you start getting into
Speaker 4: the materials. I just I found that to be interesting.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, there's I guess you would say a little
Speaker 1: more transparency in that regard. But whatever you feel about
Speaker 1: those things, we want to be very clear here, we
Speaker 1: ourselves are not following gong practitioners. Although I think all
Speaker 1: of us have done things like meditation and mindful breathing
Speaker 1: and yoga, this is a different thing. And no matter
Speaker 1: how you feel about the claims that Lee makes no
Speaker 1: matter how you feel about the practices of the organization
Speaker 1: in terms of exercise and philosophy, there's no arguing this.
Speaker 1: Those books were instant bestsellers, and people across the country
Speaker 1: of China loved this idea, loved this concept, and Lee
Speaker 1: started making public demonstrations of his of his perceived abilities,
Speaker 1: which also ties in a little bit to our episodes
Speaker 1: on faith healing and laying on of hands.
Speaker 2: Okay, so back to the timeline.
Speaker 3: In December of nineteen ninety two, Lee hung z did
Speaker 3: his very first public demonstration of his abilities at the
Speaker 3: nineteen ninety two Oriental Health Expo in Beijing. Apparently he
Speaker 3: caused a paralyzed and wheelchair bound man to walk, destroyed
Speaker 3: gall and kidney stones within another individual, and cured difficult,
Speaker 3: quote difficult and complex illnesses of all kinds. So needless
Speaker 3: to say, he made quite a splash, and the director
Speaker 3: of the fair declared, is like you, you won the fair.
Speaker 3: He declared that Fallon Gong was the star cultivation system.
Speaker 4: Oh wow, what does that even mean?
Speaker 3: Like cultivating like the stars from the Uni from the galaxy.
Speaker 4: Mmm.
Speaker 3: I took it as a best in show, best in show,
Speaker 3: but still that's very I love the.
Speaker 2: Turn of phrase. Let's leave it there to me. It
Speaker 2: really is like you're, you know, the brightest shining boy
Speaker 2: in the room.
Speaker 4: Well, as Ben said there the laying on of hands
Speaker 4: episode that we did, I think everyone can hear the
Speaker 4: similarity there. And you know we we weren't there in
Speaker 4: nineteen ninety two. We can't tell you exactly what happened,
Speaker 4: you know, or if there were any plants in the audience,
Speaker 4: but if those things were true, they would be miracles.
Speaker 1: Well I was you know, you guys know my schedule.
Speaker 1: I was busy. I didn't get over there. Yeah, but
Speaker 1: I heard good things.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I was nine. I think in doing something with
Speaker 4: a Nintendo pretty sure.
Speaker 1: I don't think I should say where I was. In
Speaker 1: December of nineteen ninety three, at the nineteen ninety three Expo,
Speaker 1: Lee was given to awards and this is, you know,
Speaker 1: the second iteration of his appearance there. He got the
Speaker 1: Award for Advancing Boundary Science and the Chigong Master Most
Speaker 1: Acclaimed by the Masses. So that's like the no, and
Speaker 1: I am not dismissing this at all, just for an
Speaker 1: analog or a comparison. This is a lot like saying
Speaker 1: you got the Audience Appreciation Award. Yes, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean, people like you the most. So we started
Speaker 1: giving classes all over the country in the ways of
Speaker 1: this philosophy throughout the early to mid nineties, and for
Speaker 1: a while, as we mentioned, this enjoyed a great deal
Speaker 1: of domestic fame as well as what appeared to be
Speaker 1: somewhere between the open support of the Chinese government to
Speaker 1: the tacit support to at the very least toleration of it. Right, Like,
Speaker 1: they're not hurting anyone, they're not violating our unwritten law,
Speaker 1: don't mess with the money, let them go stretch in
Speaker 1: the park exactly.
Speaker 4: And in a way, it's kind of a nice little
Speaker 4: cultural at least information export, right, It's an interesting thing.
Speaker 4: It's a cool little peace that we can share. And wow,
Speaker 4: we've got this. I don't I want to say miracle worker,
Speaker 4: but we've got someone with essentially supernatural powers that practices
Speaker 4: in China. Cool, enjoy, be healthy, all o kod.
Speaker 1: Yeah, this goes internationals soon after. Like, when you think
Speaker 1: about the spread of this movement, I have to see
Speaker 1: it's impressive. You know, a few decades later people would
Speaker 1: call this kind of growth viral instead of exponential. Yeah,
Speaker 1: by nineteen nineteen ninety five or so, Lea is spreading
Speaker 1: his message past the borders of China. He's lecturing in
Speaker 1: Paris and Stockholm. He's lecturing in Sydney, in Houston, Texas,
Speaker 1: which seemed a weird draw, but these are the facts,
Speaker 1: and New York City in nineteen ninety six. But while
Speaker 1: he's out speaking abroad and spending a less and less
Speaker 1: time in China, things aren't going so well on the
Speaker 1: home front, are.
Speaker 4: They No, the tide was turning inside of China while
Speaker 4: he was gone, because in nineteen ninety five, the organization
Speaker 4: fell and Gong left the one that it had originally joined,
Speaker 4: the Key Goong Scientific Research Association, which you know could
Speaker 4: or could not be a big deal, but it does
Speaker 4: mean they're going independent, right, It means they're gaining power
Speaker 4: in some way, and the Chinese government started to see
Speaker 4: them as essentially a threat. And it's really because they
Speaker 4: were growing so exponentially and so quickly, and some of
Speaker 4: these spiritual beliefs, the religious teachings that were in those books,
Speaker 4: they were going a little bit against what would be
Speaker 4: considered traditional or at least the party line of what
Speaker 4: the party wanted its citizens to be thinking about, believing in,
Speaker 4: and ultimately they feared that this thing would grow so
Speaker 4: big it would be threat because it was independent of
Speaker 4: a lot of those internal institutions.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know this doesn't come from nowhere or
Speaker 1: necessarily uninformed paranoia. There is a long history in this
Speaker 1: area of the world, going back to the dynasty days
Speaker 1: in China, of the governing bodies having to actively and
Speaker 1: aggressively work against the possibility of domestic descent. In a way,
Speaker 1: the government at the time was reacting to what they
Speaker 1: saw the president as the precedent set by earlier domestic unrest.
Speaker 3: What is it that you think about this religion and
Speaker 3: this movement that caused it to catch on so much.
Speaker 4: It's just very appealing. I think if you look on
Speaker 4: the face of it, it's extremely appealing. You don't have
Speaker 4: to work too hard. It's mostly meditative and it seems
Speaker 4: to have a kindness on the front. And we're going
Speaker 4: to talk a little bit more about some of the
Speaker 4: ways some of the ways the ideas are spread and
Speaker 4: why they seem, especially when you bring in the persecution
Speaker 4: angle that we're going to get to why it seems
Speaker 4: like something you'd want to join to fight for.
Speaker 1: And the majority of from what we understand, the majority
Speaker 1: of Followngngong members are recruited by members of their biological families,
Speaker 1: So there is a furthering and a deepening of the
Speaker 1: sense of community in this endeavor, and community, from what
Speaker 1: I understand, is the thing that people like. It's true,
Speaker 1: people dig it. So as you said, the tides turning,
Speaker 1: the tides turning against the practitioners of Followungong because it's
Speaker 1: seen as a threat to the status quo. We know
Speaker 1: that sometime in this somewhere in this time period, members
Speaker 1: of Following Gong started becoming active online. There were early
Speaker 1: adopters of the Internet, but it's difficult to know exactly
Speaker 1: when this occurred because like the rators in Neil Stevenson's Anathem,
Speaker 1: they spend a lot of time changing the past or
Speaker 1: they A more diplomatic way would be to say, and
Speaker 1: I mean both the Chinese government and some factions of
Speaker 1: Following Gong they carefully edit and curate old material from
Speaker 1: their websites, so it's tough to know some of the
Speaker 1: specifics of timelines here. But they didn't take this line down,
Speaker 1: They got mad, and the practitioners started protesting outside of
Speaker 1: various media outlets in China that they've if they felt
Speaker 1: those outlets were misrepresenting the goals of Followungong and the
Speaker 1: lives and aims of the practitioners. Basically say, you know,
Speaker 1: stop being evil. That's it, that's not like on the
Speaker 1: face of it, that's that's a cool thing, not to
Speaker 1: be to be evil. Google once did that.
Speaker 4: No longer does I remember those days.
Speaker 1: It's no longer their motto, right, But also, don't be evil,
Speaker 1: way different from be good?
Speaker 4: Yeah, very Imma.
Speaker 2: We thought that was a weird one.
Speaker 3: Was it like sort of like a guiding principle sort
Speaker 3: of a reminder to themselves to like do a good
Speaker 3: job with the power that you've been you've given yourselves.
Speaker 2: That's a weird one. I always thought that was very strange.
Speaker 4: So this is nineteen nine, like we've led up to
Speaker 4: ninety six, right, that's when they're doing their protesting. Then
Speaker 4: the next year, as pressure is mounting from the party
Speaker 4: within China, Lee he ends up getting out of China
Speaker 4: And where does he head? New York City?
Speaker 3: Okay, yeah, because it wasn't he wasn't he wasn't he
Speaker 3: beginning to be branded as a dissident already?
Speaker 2: Yeah, four years before.
Speaker 1: Uh yeah, I was going to say, is you know,
Speaker 1: just picture Lee somewhere and he's been to New York
Speaker 1: before at this point, and he says, hey, kid, you
Speaker 1: can make it here, you could make it anywhere. And
Speaker 1: then he has that whole sitcom moment. Yeah he does.
Speaker 1: He does go to New York. You know, something's in
Speaker 1: the wind, I would imagine. And let's pause here, we've
Speaker 1: got one. We're waiting for the other shoe to drop.
Speaker 1: So let's let's hear from our sponsors who may not
Speaker 1: be Fellongong today.
Speaker 4: Maybe we don't know it's it's probably not Felling Gong,
Speaker 4: but it is shn yin.
Speaker 1: Uh spoilers, We'll be back to watch the hammer fall.
Speaker 1: Fast forward nineteen ninety nine, there's a massive protest against
Speaker 1: the government of China on the part of the Ballongngong.
Speaker 1: Shortly after that protest, the PRC begins a nationwide crackdown
Speaker 1: and they go ham there's this huge propaganda push there,
Speaker 1: aim is to eradicate the following gong. How serious are
Speaker 1: they about this? Well, they make a new security agency
Speaker 1: whose entire job is to eliminate Following Gong. It's called
Speaker 1: the six' Ten. Office it started In june of nineteen ninety.
Speaker 1: Nine to describe some of the stuff that the government
Speaker 1: was doing against this. Organization they they were bulldozing educational,
Speaker 1: tapes you know WHAT i. Mean they were pulling all
Speaker 1: the stuff they could off the internet if. Possible they
Speaker 1: were publicly denouncing any members if it got to the
Speaker 1: point where, like depending on your, job it might be
Speaker 1: dangerous for your first year employment, status uh to be
Speaker 1: a member Of Following, gong and then soon after it
Speaker 1: maybe dangerous for your personal. Freedom they also Blocked oh
Speaker 1: they didn't just Block Following gong, websites they blocked websites
Speaker 1: from other. Places and there were a few countries that Mentioned.
Speaker 1: Follongong they were, like, eh, SORRY i know your blog
Speaker 1: is mainly about your backpacking travels Through Southeast, asia but
Speaker 1: you mentioned the wrong, Organization so now your whole website
Speaker 1: is shut down for one point three billion.
Speaker 2: People.
Speaker 1: Wow so imagine you start as an exercise group and
Speaker 1: the next thing you, know you're in a full on
Speaker 1: information war with one of the world's most powerful, countries
Speaker 1: a country that's also becoming one of the world's leaders
Speaker 1: in this kind of asymmetrical. Warfare this Gets david And
Speaker 1: goliath pretty. Quickly if the story so far is.
Speaker 4: True and this is a good time to bring this.
Speaker 4: Up Maybe ben in our research for this, episode And,
Speaker 4: ben you pointed this out AND i also noticed, it
Speaker 4: and know, What i'm sure you did. Too, really what
Speaker 4: you find on The, internet save for a few mostly objective,
Speaker 4: writers is information that is extremely Pro Fello gong or
Speaker 4: extremely Anti Fellan.
Speaker 3: Goong, well even The american media for quite some time
Speaker 3: was very Pro Fello, gong it would, seem because they
Speaker 3: sort of acted as this like buffer against like the you,
Speaker 3: know the distrustfulness that is pretty common around Like chinese information,
Speaker 3: control and they sort of represented almost this, like you,
Speaker 3: know example of the heavy handedness of The chinese. Government in,
Speaker 3: fact there's an interview with the founder Of Fallong gong
Speaker 3: In time magazine in nineteen ninety. Nine SO i, mean in,
Speaker 3: general The american press was pretty pretty kind to them
Speaker 3: as an.
Speaker 1: Organization THE us would enter this information war later for
Speaker 1: motivations of its. OWN i suspect motivations of its, Own
Speaker 1: but Maybe i'm being a. Jerk so back in ninety,
Speaker 1: nine same year as that, time interview Following gong becomes
Speaker 1: illegal In. China, however the horse of dissidents has left
Speaker 1: the proverbial. Barn the followers are widespread in an other
Speaker 1: thing that maybe THE prc didn't count. On these followers
Speaker 1: are tremendously media. Savvy REMEMBER i said they were earlier
Speaker 1: adopters of things like The internet and emerging. Technology so
Speaker 1: in the years since being declared a quote heretical organization
Speaker 1: that threatens social, stability they have dispatched thousands upon thousands
Speaker 1: of press, releases these staged live events and, protests things
Speaker 1: that are purposely and beautifully designed to gather headlines to
Speaker 1: get international eyes on the. Story they've also kept a
Speaker 1: very strong internet. Presence you can check out some of
Speaker 1: their official official territories online. Now they also became increasingly,
Speaker 1: litigious and they would slap people with a defamation lawsuit
Speaker 1: if they published something saying saying stuff that to us
Speaker 1: might even seem. Innocuous you, know there was still there
Speaker 1: was try to bring the hammer down the way that
Speaker 1: The chinese government was bringing the hammer down on. Them
Speaker 1: and like we alluded to just a few minutes, ago
Speaker 1: Following gong adherents for a very long time were treated
Speaker 1: in an extraordinarily kind way by The western. Press they
Speaker 1: love This david And goliath. Story they also sometimes supported
Speaker 1: the group's religious or political. Agendas as you can, Imagine
Speaker 1: Following gong becomes very strongly Anti chinese, government and when
Speaker 1: it broke in The, west when THE us and In
Speaker 1: europe started entering, this you would see a lot of
Speaker 1: reports from politicians and journalists who were ridiculing The chinese
Speaker 1: government and they were, Saying, wow These communist leaders are so, paranoid,
Speaker 1: aka they know their ideas are so bad that they're
Speaker 1: going to treat this group of quote exercising grannies like countert.
Speaker 1: Terrorists and they all had a good laugh about that
Speaker 1: right in the in the news cycle of the. Time
Speaker 1: and they got some facts wrong while they were doing.
Speaker 1: It they got, like they got one big fact very much.
Speaker 2: Wrong that's.
Speaker 3: Right western sources originally had claimed that THE prc was
Speaker 3: reacting to popularity. Alone they argued that The Communist party
Speaker 3: had sixty to seventy million, members But fellongong had one hundred,
Speaker 3: million and this did not seem to be the. Case
Speaker 3: multiple scholars agreed that the Fellan gong only had about
Speaker 3: two to ten million practitioners at that. Time, also why
Speaker 3: weren't Other remember this is all a product of a larger,
Speaker 3: movement the Key gong. Movement why weren't other practitioners of
Speaker 3: those techniques band?
Speaker 1: Right there Were, again there are Multiple there are multiple
Speaker 1: groups that are descended from this ancient tradition of mindfulness
Speaker 1: and exercise and, meditation and they seem to be just.
Speaker 1: Fine nothing wrong with those. Folks, sadly as any longtime
Speaker 1: listener of this show, knows it is the opposite of
Speaker 1: unusual for world governments to repress movements they see as
Speaker 1: dangerous to the status. Quo on so many, levels there's an,
Speaker 1: abundance a, plethora using the work correctly of ridiculous examples of.
Speaker 1: This but if you dive into this upon closer, examination
Speaker 1: we see that fullongong looks a lot different from the
Speaker 1: casual chigong group or even like a CrossFit. Club and
Speaker 1: while we were prepping for, this, folks it became increasingly
Speaker 1: difficult for us not to continually ask ourselves about, CrossFit
Speaker 1: which got out of. Hand for a, second, THERE i
Speaker 1: think we can agree CrossFit got a little out of hand.
Speaker 4: Yeah oh it. Did AND i for one promise THAT
Speaker 4: i will hunt down The CrossFit demons and aliens that
Speaker 4: exist in the originating book somewhere That i've just never
Speaker 4: seen were Writ.
Speaker 3: YEAH i did CrossFit for a little while years. AGO
Speaker 3: i had like a a trainer. SITUATION i can tell
Speaker 3: you from firsthand, experience the demons and aliens live in
Speaker 3: those ten ninety x stretchy. Bands that's where that's, where
Speaker 3: that's where that comes. From THAT p ninety X GA
Speaker 3: t NINETY p Ninety Clemado. Climato but it was they
Speaker 3: do sneak The christian stuff in very, subtly right when
Speaker 3: you're getting the most, swollen and then all of a
Speaker 3: sudden they sort of whisper some scripture in Your.
Speaker 4: Wait, wait, wait wait WAIT i MAYBE i just have no.
Speaker 4: Idea Is CrossFit like a religious organization or are kind Of.
Speaker 1: Yeah maybe it depends on the trainer.
Speaker 3: Too, No i've always heard That CrossFit has sort of
Speaker 3: some kind of religious.
Speaker 2: UNDERTONES i was.
Speaker 4: Being COMPLETELY i was joking about hunting that, down but
Speaker 4: Now i'm.
Speaker 2: Serious Maybe i'm overthinking it.
Speaker 3: Too there are Definitely Christian crossfits, organizations and like here's
Speaker 3: an article here how Turning CrossFit into a religion made
Speaker 3: its atheist Founder Greg glassman Rich oh?
Speaker 2: Interesting, okay Huh So.
Speaker 3: CrossFit itself is the religion not necessarily a front for?
Speaker 2: Religion?
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. Yeah so when we go back To chigong And,
Speaker 1: followngong what we see is that it isn't the same in, many,
Speaker 1: many many. Ways and this is something that practitioners of
Speaker 1: Following gong would agree. With there is a web of conspiracy.
Speaker 1: Here it's tough to suss out the strings of truth
Speaker 1: right in this. Morass there are allegations of everything From
Speaker 1: oregon harvesting to cults to even front groups for intelligence.
Speaker 1: Agencies so let's dive in deep. Breath here's where it gets. Crazy.
Speaker 3: Yeah china's state run media Outlet chinoa had a completely
Speaker 3: different take on Why Follen gong was being. Banned they
Speaker 3: claimed that The west was attempting to Make china look.
Speaker 3: Bad they believed and argued, accordingly that The chinese government
Speaker 3: banned foul And gong Because lee had broken numerous laws
Speaker 3: was responsible for over a thousand, deaths mainly from essentially
Speaker 3: coercing members into committing suicide or by not seeking medical,
Speaker 3: treatment which is a part of this whole you, know
Speaker 3: belief system that we'll get, into was threatening public safety
Speaker 3: and because members had infiltrated The Communist party in.
Speaker 2: Order to overthrow the.
Speaker 3: Government that's a lot and it, sounds you, know like
Speaker 3: the kind of high level. Conspiracies that's like we live
Speaker 3: for things Like operations Snow. White sounds a lot less
Speaker 3: like you, know just doing tai chi in the park
Speaker 3: on A sunday.
Speaker 4: Afternoon, right, Yeah and anyone listening may remember operations wherein
Speaker 4: The church Of scientology or members a few members of
Speaker 4: The church Of scientology attempted some.
Speaker 1: Infiltration all, Right so NOW i can feel the shadow
Speaker 1: of our legal, TEAM i. Know oh, Man so let
Speaker 1: me how Did it's very careful with the writing on that.
Speaker 1: One the official position of The church Of scientology is
Speaker 1: That operation Snow white was not sanctioned by their organization
Speaker 1: as a way to massively infiltrate the irs and then
Speaker 1: blackmail the government in a crazy financial.
Speaker 4: Scheme.
Speaker 1: Ood several people disagree with that official, position including THE
Speaker 1: Us Supreme, Court, Right, like that's what we could. Say
Speaker 1: we said that, earlier, right there are people who. Disagree,
Speaker 1: Uh so we Have mike. RENDERAN i, mean our ship
Speaker 1: has sailed in that. Regard but but there is one
Speaker 1: thing you know that you that they, said it's really
Speaker 1: interesting here nol the idea of infiltration of the. Government
Speaker 1: that was. True, yeah The chinese government was telling the
Speaker 1: truth about this. One Following gong was all up in
Speaker 1: the state's military and the security apparatus and the media
Speaker 1: educational establishments as much as. Possible it's explicitly mentioned in
Speaker 1: one Of lee's, Books Following. Gong he talks about putting
Speaker 1: focus on getting support from state government, leaders like from these,
Speaker 1: Officials and interestingly, enough if you read The english And
Speaker 1: french translations of these, books those specific mentions have been
Speaker 1: cut from the. Text see the past is. Changing but
Speaker 1: in all, fairness to lead all fairness to the practitioners
Speaker 1: Of Following, gong we have to point out seeking powerful
Speaker 1: friends is not the same thing as plain a. Coup
Speaker 1: you want to get like a a member of the
Speaker 1: high ranking member of The Communist party on board With, Falungong,
Speaker 1: well then maybe first it's because you think it's good for,
Speaker 1: them you, know on a purely physical. Level and then maybe,
Speaker 1: secondly like, hey this person could help us out with
Speaker 1: a jam especially for being. Misrepresented we have someone on
Speaker 1: our side who can, say here's the, truth and this
Speaker 1: is not. Propaganda so it's not the same thing as it.
Speaker 4: Cou it sounds a lot like The family to. Me
Speaker 4: another episode we covered where Evangelical christianity was at least
Speaker 4: making those friends right in high places and actively working
Speaker 4: to increase just influence within those, realms not necessarily causing a.
Speaker 1: Coup is that the episode where we got a little
Speaker 1: bit lost trying to figure out what the menu for
Speaker 1: the prayer breakfast.
Speaker 3: WAS i was just, THINKING i was, like why AM
Speaker 3: i thinking about eggs right? Now is that massive prayer
Speaker 3: breakfast that was such a like an influencer kind of
Speaker 3: closed door situation that they essentially started.
Speaker 4: Correct it's always, pancakes.
Speaker 1: Guys, YEAH i JUST i don't like all, RIGHT i
Speaker 1: feel like a pancake breakfast is something that's cooler is
Speaker 1: a phrase than actual? Thing like what makes it a
Speaker 1: pancake breakfast instead of just like pancakes AND oj is?
Speaker 1: There maybe maybe.
Speaker 2: Eat two, pancakes you know WHAT i?
Speaker 5: Mean?
Speaker 2: LIKE i DO i need a?
Speaker 3: VARIETY i want like some sausage and some. Bacon i'm
Speaker 3: not a huge. Pancakes you feel so much like dessert to.
Speaker 4: Me look very, heavy you. Guys when you're a tax exempt,
Speaker 4: organization you gotta keep costs super, low and pancake batter
Speaker 4: is the way to.
Speaker 2: Go.
Speaker 3: True it is the people's the people's.
Speaker 1: Food you're going to call it the people's cake pan also?
Speaker 2: True also?
Speaker 1: True, yeah, yeah pancake opinions. ASIDE i just THINK i don't. Know,
Speaker 1: also portions in THE us are so cartoon initially. Large
Speaker 1: if you go eat, SOMEWHERE i, Mean i'm with you
Speaker 1: guys in two or three silver dollar pancakes AND I
Speaker 1: i have some other stuff going on on the. Plate
Speaker 1: but this is Not this is not something THAT sinoi
Speaker 1: or THE prc. Was, yes we're talking about too. Much they,
Speaker 1: were they were, concerned you, know and they Thought western
Speaker 1: media was And western governments were being complicit in supporting
Speaker 1: what they saw as an increasingly subversive and perhaps even separatist. Organization,
Speaker 1: today the members Of, ballongkong or the practitioners OF i
Speaker 1: THINK i think the members of the organization prefer the term.
Speaker 1: Practitioners the practitioners are often overtly political and overtly Anti.
Speaker 1: China they want the, demise if not of the government Of,
Speaker 1: china they want the demise of The Communist. Party and
Speaker 1: if we're being completely objective, here you can see a
Speaker 1: couple of different reasons for. This The chinese government may
Speaker 1: argue that they're political beliefs are the reason this movement was,
Speaker 1: Banned but we also have to, ask if we're being,
Speaker 1: fair are the people who are being overtly political? Here
Speaker 1: are they just reacting in an entirely reasonable way to
Speaker 1: some extreme state level? Persecution you? Know is this an
Speaker 1: exercise group or a? Cult that's a question that we're
Speaker 1: going to try to explore together after a word from
Speaker 1: our sponsor.
Speaker 3: And we're, back, Okay so before the, break we posed
Speaker 3: the question what really is? This is a lot of
Speaker 3: divisive talk surrounding The fall And.
Speaker 2: Gong so what is?
Speaker 3: It it is a kind of anocious mindfulness meditative exercise
Speaker 3: group or some sort of nefarious, cult or perhaps something in.
Speaker 3: Between while the again state Sponsored chinese media Calls fellongonga,
Speaker 3: Cult western media seemed very hesitant to do. So in, fact,
Speaker 3: really like we talked about that nineteen ninety Nine time,
Speaker 3: interview did give them a platform and treated them almost
Speaker 3: with a lot of, deference and we got to ask ourselves.
Speaker 3: Why some scholars argue that it was because of pressure
Speaker 3: From fallongong, itself perhaps that religiousness we talked. About, still
Speaker 3: there are some accounts and evidence showing recruitment tactics that
Speaker 3: could be described as pretty sketchy at the very, least.
Speaker 2: Cult like at the.
Speaker 3: Most As Heather caven writes In fallongong and The, media
Speaker 3: what can we? Believe the exercises quickly begin to take
Speaker 3: a back seat to, larger ideologically driven belief. Systems here's
Speaker 3: a quote on newcomer's second or third, visits they are
Speaker 3: given scriptures Showing lee's rejection of those who simply do
Speaker 3: the exercise part and not the other, stuff which we'll get.
Speaker 3: Into when six months into the field, work a member
Speaker 3: told me That Fello gong was not about doing the
Speaker 3: exercises at, all AND i was not.
Speaker 2: Surprised.
Speaker 1: Yeah So Heather kavan wrote this awesome paper where she
Speaker 1: did this ethnographic STUDY i believe In New, zealand and she.
Speaker 1: Was she was meeting up with members Of Followen kong
Speaker 1: every day for a time and doing these exercises in the,
Speaker 1: morning and she got they were very welcoming and she
Speaker 1: got an increasingly intimate perspective of the day to day
Speaker 1: actions of practitioners as well, as you, know some of
Speaker 1: the larger things that they believed to be. True and
Speaker 1: this got into ideas of like having, visions visions are very,
Speaker 1: big and following gong having claravoyance moments or moments of by.
Speaker 1: Location and then also there were sketchy things where she would,
Speaker 1: ask like she did this pretty more than a, YEAR i,
Speaker 1: think and there was somebody she was meeting every day
Speaker 1: and she, said, hey what DO i call that woman
Speaker 1: That i've been meeting with every? Day and somebody just
Speaker 1: looked at her and was, like just call her the,
Speaker 1: woman which is kind of a sketchy thing to. SAY
Speaker 1: i don't, KNOW i don't. Know i'm an. Outsider but
Speaker 1: this told her that there was a maybe to your
Speaker 1: point in a little bit of bait and, switch kind
Speaker 1: of like you're come for the, exercises stay for the
Speaker 1: truth about the. Universe And i'm not being. DISMISSIVE i
Speaker 1: mean that's kind of the process and those for people
Speaker 1: who continue deeper into the belief. System Ex Fello gong
Speaker 1: practitioners say that the beliefs and values are what might
Speaker 1: be called surprisingly, conservative the forbidding of interracial, marriage the
Speaker 1: condemnation of, homosexuality and to our earlier, point discouraging the
Speaker 1: use of modern. Medicine for their, part Following gong officially
Speaker 1: deny that this is. True so again we're in a
Speaker 1: one side said, this one side said that. Situation but
Speaker 1: if this is if we were to define this as a,
Speaker 1: cult Which Follen goong emphatically says it is, not then
Speaker 1: we would naturally find ourselves with a couple of questions
Speaker 1: off the. Bat the first is this this observation cults need,
Speaker 1: leaders so people are critics of this. Organization those who
Speaker 1: Accuse phallongngong of being a cult say they do have a,
Speaker 1: leader and that role is played by the, Founder Lee.
Speaker 1: Honkshi so weird thing About Lee honkshi is that we
Speaker 1: have conflicting stories about, him his, life his current, beliefs
Speaker 1: his aims for the organization or aims for the. Movement
Speaker 1: and the even weirder thing about this, is To matt's
Speaker 1: earlier point about an information, war some of these reports
Speaker 1: are coming from people who would be totally happy if
Speaker 1: he never, existed aka in his. Government some of these
Speaker 1: reports are coming from his, disciples and then some of
Speaker 1: his conflicting reports are coming straight from him at different
Speaker 1: times when he's talking to different, People like he's talking
Speaker 1: A western, audience, right say Like i'm not a, god
Speaker 1: don't try to make me a. God and then he's
Speaker 1: talking to a domestic audience and he's, say my true
Speaker 1: spiritual form is so huge that IF i came down,
Speaker 1: here you, know in my true, form you would be
Speaker 1: like standing and trying to gaze up past my big.
Speaker 4: Toe totally.
Speaker 2: God aka yeah, interesting wo.
Speaker 4: Wow it's very. WEIRD i, mean and he in the
Speaker 4: past Hasn't lee said that he's like Of jesus or
Speaker 4: a savior or the person who is going to, yeah save, humanity. Right.
Speaker 1: Yeah he said that he's compared himself at times in
Speaker 1: speeches to the Biblical Jesus, christ where he said, that you,
Speaker 1: know lines Like christ has a sixteen carrot gold. PATH
Speaker 1: i have a twenty four or twenty something carrot gold.
Speaker 1: Path you, know we have to admit maybe we're maybe
Speaker 1: we're losing some context in, translation but these like there's
Speaker 1: a repeated pattern of this. Stuff he also says things
Speaker 1: will be familiar to people who have had experience with exclusionary.
Speaker 1: Organizations says that if you're a member Of Following, gong
Speaker 1: you're superior to ordinary, people and this might be familiar
Speaker 1: to longtime. Listeners also says you need to relinquish affection for,
Speaker 1: kinsfolk love between a man and a, woman and affection for,
Speaker 1: parents feelings and. Friendship you need to focus on the.
Speaker 1: Path what was that guy we did episode On Benhito.
Speaker 3: Marows wasn't he like in Like sedona or something like.
Speaker 3: That he was in somewhere somewhere in Like New mexico
Speaker 3: and he had this whole like kind of sweat lodge
Speaker 3: tech bro cult, situation, careful, careful.
Speaker 4: Disgusting, YEAH i still get his.
Speaker 3: Newsletters oh, boy. Interesting, well, no you're, Right, Ben and
Speaker 3: it gets, weirder like he's not shy about, this and
Speaker 3: it's it's even a little, inconsistent, right like when he's
Speaker 3: gonna go big and talk about the big, toe you,
Speaker 3: Know god situation or downplay and, say oh, no, No
Speaker 3: i'm just a bit a humble meditation. Instructor i'm exaggerating
Speaker 3: a little. Bit but in that time article he talks
Speaker 3: a lot about being able to teach people to levitate
Speaker 3: off of the, Ground and then also he talks about
Speaker 3: how you shouldn't ever show these abilities to. Outsiders the
Speaker 3: time reporter, says in your, Book Zan, falloon you talk
Speaker 3: about people levitating off the, ground but say that they
Speaker 3: should not show other.
Speaker 2: People why is?
Speaker 3: That and hely says it is the same principle That
Speaker 3: western gods in paradise should not be seen by ordinary
Speaker 3: mortals because they cannot understand its. Meaning and Then time
Speaker 3: asks have you seen human beings levitate off the, ground
Speaker 3: and he, RESPONDS i have known too.
Speaker 2: Many can you describe any that you have, known to
Speaker 2: Which lee, Responds.
Speaker 3: David copperfield he can, levitate and he did it during.
Speaker 3: Performances not trying to rag on the guy too, hard
Speaker 3: but very mixed messages here he's, saying you, KNOW i
Speaker 3: can teach people to do. It it's something that's inherent
Speaker 3: in this belief. System, ALSO i don't like the idea
Speaker 3: of them showing anybody but the one he cites this
Speaker 3: is An american illusionist where everyone knows.
Speaker 2: That he's not really.
Speaker 3: Levitating very.
Speaker 2: Unusual it may.
Speaker 4: Have just been a joke in some a form of a.
Speaker 1: Joke who, Knows, yeah, Maybe and then Also this is
Speaker 1: interesting because again we go back to the question of
Speaker 1: not just, context but the question motivation of the. Sources
Speaker 1: like the thing about there's an interesting, Example so we
Speaker 1: talked a little bit about how there might have been
Speaker 1: pressure From tholoungong that Influenced western media's portrayal of the. Group,
Speaker 1: originally it reminds me of a lot Of Reverend moon and
Speaker 1: The Washington, times when The moonies owned that there were
Speaker 1: clear conflicts of interests that would come up over, time
Speaker 1: just like Obviously sinoa has conflicts of interest because it's state,
Speaker 1: media just like multiple organizations. Do it's more unusual to
Speaker 1: be like a pro publica without as much of an editorial.
Speaker 1: Bias SO i think we built an okay case to show.
Speaker 1: That first, off a lot of statements from this guy
Speaker 1: have been conflicting over time with earlier statements he's made
Speaker 1: or with statements he goes on to make. Afterwards, secondly
Speaker 1: there are some he's made that seemed pretty extraordinary and
Speaker 1: that don't seem all too out of the realm of cult.
Speaker 1: Leader but we're we're just we're telling you. Why some
Speaker 1: people have argued that the other thing that keeps so
Speaker 1: we're kind of ping ponging back and forth across what's happening.
Speaker 1: Here here's another thing that's. Happening Following gong practitioners have
Speaker 1: for years and years and years alleged that since gosh
Speaker 1: more in two decades, now that since nineteen ninety, nine
Speaker 1: maybe even a little, before they were being persecuted and
Speaker 1: are being persecuted by The chinese. Government that is. True
Speaker 1: that's the. Thing that's no one they're not making that.
Speaker 1: Up after the, ban tens of thousands of people were,
Speaker 1: arrested they were sent to labor camps without a, trial
Speaker 1: and many of these people who have, survived who came
Speaker 1: out of these said that they were. Tortured, again the
Speaker 1: numbers may be. Exaggerated it's tough to get transparent numbers
Speaker 1: of incarceration from The chinese, government and it's tough to
Speaker 1: really and this is not a ding on. Them it's
Speaker 1: tough to understand the credibility of numbers offered by an
Speaker 1: organization like this on its own membership rates on what
Speaker 1: happened to whom and, When just because they might Not
Speaker 1: i'm not saying there's any necessarily any ulterior motive. Here
Speaker 1: they may not have the capacity to keep that kind of,
Speaker 1: accounting but the detainment was definitely. Real.
Speaker 3: Yeah so in The Wall Street, journal a journalist Named
Speaker 3: Ian johnson documented his investigation into the repression that we're
Speaker 3: talking about in a series that he, wrote which he
Speaker 3: received A Pulitzer prize for part. Of and there's definitely
Speaker 3: some of the strains going. On shinhoa in pretty, stark
Speaker 3: if not very. Surprising as we discussed, contrasts depicted the
Speaker 3: prisoners as being happy playing. Basketball we've talked about this
Speaker 3: in the past episodes as, well eating amazing you, know
Speaker 3: platters of food and all of, that with local police
Speaker 3: stations acting as centers for them to receive counseling to
Speaker 3: help these, poor you, know brainwashed souls essentially get an
Speaker 3: education and BECOME i guess more acclimated or reintroduced into
Speaker 3: traditional Civilized chinese. Society in, this you, know really supported
Speaker 3: the narrative that the government was pushing of this being
Speaker 3: a dangerous separatist. Cult, however practitioners Of Fallo gong described
Speaker 3: members being treated much much, differently described them being hung
Speaker 3: by their ankles upside down for long periods of, time
Speaker 3: hit with like cattle prodt type implements or stun, guns.
Speaker 2: Actually cut or pierced.
Speaker 3: With bamboo, sticks beaten and, raped and kept in tiny
Speaker 3: any spaces where they can't even move for days at a,
Speaker 3: time prohibited from using the restroom facilities for long periods of,
Speaker 3: time showing brutal imagery displayed throughout these, facilities things like police.
Speaker 3: Brutality and often in some of these public demonstrations that
Speaker 3: they would, do they would re enact historical torture scenes
Speaker 3: in alarming and disturbing.
Speaker 1: Ways theater is a, weapon, Right it's a real, thing
Speaker 1: and it can be a powerful. Thing there's an interesting
Speaker 1: and somewhat troubling interpretation of this. Persecution this persecution is
Speaker 1: to a degree, aspirational as much AS i hate to say.
Speaker 1: It within the, movement there's this one speech Where lee
Speaker 1: talks about stepping. Forward stepping forward is a euphemism referring
Speaker 1: to a series of tests that partitioners must pass to
Speaker 1: gain entry into his version or his realization of heaven
Speaker 1: or paradise or.
Speaker 4: Enlightenment going up the, ladder crossing the, bridge stepping. Forward,
Speaker 4: okay do.
Speaker 1: You want to get a seed? Reference, so, so, yeah
Speaker 1: here's how he explained. It he said he had only
Speaker 1: planned enlightenment for a limited number Of Followen gong, members
Speaker 1: but with the increasing amount of practitioners, again they might
Speaker 1: be inflating the numbers, here and with of course the
Speaker 1: eminent end of the, world he had to start weeding
Speaker 1: people out quick fast and in a. Hurry and so
Speaker 1: he said that if you defend the following long to
Speaker 1: the point where you are, imprisoned you are, detained you are,
Speaker 1: tortured then your bad karma is burned, off and this
Speaker 1: assures you a space in. Paradise practitioners must not recant their,
Speaker 1: faith even if their retre is, insincere even, if like
Speaker 1: we proved in earlier episodes on, torture you're just saying
Speaker 1: whatever you think people want to hear so that they'll
Speaker 1: stop pulling out your fingernails or shocking your testicles or
Speaker 1: what have. You he, Says, look even if you fake Recanting,
Speaker 1: follongong you're a terrible. Person and then he goes, on
Speaker 1: think about. This he goes one step further and heavily
Speaker 1: implies that he purposefully orchestrated the, torture that it was
Speaker 1: all under his control the whole, time because he needed
Speaker 1: to expose these weak willed, folks and he refers to
Speaker 1: these folks who recant under torture as quote malignant. Tumors
Speaker 1: so the torture is, real but the interpretation of it
Speaker 1: and the degree to which it's real is still up
Speaker 1: for debate because there's just not a unbiased source, here,
Speaker 1: Really and it's, tough you, know like these Are Wall
Speaker 1: street journal these are top notch, journalists and they're having
Speaker 1: a tough time get cutting through the propaganda and cutting
Speaker 1: through the, purposeful the purposely deceptive tactics of the. Government
Speaker 1: and we have to go to one other, thing which
Speaker 1: is probably the thing people a lot of people in
Speaker 1: The west probably first heard Of Followen gong because of,
Speaker 1: this and we've covered it in both video and audio
Speaker 1: in the. Past organ harvesting the quote unquote red, market.
Speaker 4: Yep and this is, again as you, Said, ben this
Speaker 4: is one of the things that brings a lot of
Speaker 4: people into the conversation because it's such a sensational concept
Speaker 4: that The chinese government is somehow or for some reason
Speaker 4: harvesting organs directly From fallongong. Practitioners and this is something
Speaker 4: that is alleged and it's usually it's usually organs being
Speaker 4: taken from detainees people who are already detained by the.
Speaker 4: Government at least that's what. Said in twenty, nineteen an
Speaker 4: expert panel of independent researchers said they heard clear evidence
Speaker 4: that organ harvesting had taken place over at least twenty years.
Speaker 1: Wow directly tied to nineteen ninety NINE, yep when they
Speaker 1: were declared. Illegal if you look at the timeline questions
Speaker 1: about the bias of this, tribunal The China, tribunal it
Speaker 1: was set up by a group called The International coalition
Speaker 1: to And Transplant abuse In, China so it definitely starts
Speaker 1: from assuming this is happening and they just want to
Speaker 1: prove it's. There this panel said it was beyond a
Speaker 1: doubt a fact that there had been force art organ,
Speaker 1: harvesting not just because of one like crooked doctor or
Speaker 1: one crooked, warden which this is very, important but they
Speaker 1: said it was happening on a systemic. Scale states. Supported
Speaker 1: and here's the worst. Part beijing has repeatedly denied these.
Speaker 1: Accusations they did not start With Followen. Gong to be very,
Speaker 1: clear as we talked about, earlier this is an ongoing,
Speaker 1: thing or this was an ongoing thing at the, time
Speaker 1: BUT i want to draw special attention to their reasoning,
Speaker 1: here their support of their claim that they didn't do.
Speaker 1: This they you, guys they literally, said, no we don't
Speaker 1: forcibly take organs from people as a bunch Of western.
Speaker 1: Propaganda you, KNOW i, mean For pete's, sake fellow, humans
Speaker 1: we stopped taking organs from executed prisoners way back in twenty.
Speaker 1: Fifteen and that was like four years. Ago you guys
Speaker 1: are living in the.
Speaker 4: Past it's so twenty. Fifteen come, on that's.
Speaker 1: Just like, Okay, like, Imagine i'm not gonna say somebody
Speaker 1: burned a, barn but imagine LIKE i was standing right
Speaker 1: next to just like the old Dre eminem, Song i'm
Speaker 1: standing right next to a burning barn in this, instant
Speaker 1: And i've got A i've got a handful of, matches
Speaker 1: a can full of, gas and people are, like, hey,
Speaker 1: dude did you burn this? Barn i'm, like, what that's.
Speaker 1: CRAZY i haven't burned barnes for fun since twenty. Fifteen
Speaker 1: you guys are, wild and that's.
Speaker 4: Unfair oh but like you see What i'm, Saying, no, Totally.
Speaker 1: I'm saying it's right to be.
Speaker 4: Suspicious it is right to be suspicious and it's also
Speaker 4: just something to point out. Here we talked about the
Speaker 4: demonstrations that Felon gung practitioners have done showing the police,
Speaker 4: brutality the. Torture one of the things that they harp,
Speaker 4: on or at least have in the, past is this bread,
Speaker 4: market and they will go through the motions of having
Speaker 4: a detainee like not really but having their organs ripped
Speaker 4: out in a very gory fashion in a demonstration in
Speaker 4: front of a, building a government building or.
Speaker 1: Something and then this leads us to maybe one of
Speaker 1: the biggest things we need to note. Here the information
Speaker 1: war that started in the nineties. Continues it's been going
Speaker 1: on for. Decades there's something we mentioned a little. Earlier
Speaker 1: we've talked a lot about this off ahead coreaboration for this.
Speaker 1: Episode in THE, us there is this amazing traveling show
Speaker 1: Called Shen. Yung we talked we talked about, THIS i
Speaker 1: think last week or, so like we always wanted to.
Speaker 1: GO i definitely always wanted to. Go felt the tickets
Speaker 1: were a little, pricey but it is in fact associated
Speaker 1: with and backed By. Ballungngong, visually it's a stunning.
Speaker 2: Show M.
Speaker 3: H it's the kind of thing, too where it's, LIKE
Speaker 3: i don't know where this budget is coming. From with
Speaker 3: the marketing blitz behind this show is out of. CONTROL
Speaker 3: a lot of it's just kind of like street team
Speaker 3: type situations where you'll, see you, know flyers for it
Speaker 3: at every restaurant and coffee shop and you, know juice
Speaker 3: bar in, town but they have billboards, everywhere and like
Speaker 3: In New York city, especially a friend of mine was
Speaker 3: saying how he ended up in a cab or a
Speaker 3: lift or something that was driven by very Clearly, fallongong you,
Speaker 3: know kind of hardliner and there were even Shun yuan
Speaker 3: advertisements within the, cab and he had like stacks Of
Speaker 3: fallongong pamphlets as. Well it's almost like a modern Day
Speaker 3: Hari krishna. Thing remember HOW i used to see The
Speaker 3: Hari krishna's at the airport passing out their pamphlets and.
Speaker 3: Stuff this is sort of like that to.
Speaker 4: Me oh, yeah it makes itself. Known so let's talk
Speaker 4: about exactly what we're seeing here in this beautifully choreographed,
Speaker 4: dance interpretive dance and cultural exchange at Shn. Yun what
Speaker 4: do you?
Speaker 1: See, yeah so you see it's heavily rooted in Traditional chinese.
Speaker 1: Culture so we'll see you'll see, songs you'll see intricate
Speaker 1: choreography and dance. Numbers you'll also see a emittedly transparent
Speaker 1: narrative and overall message which includes the re enactment of
Speaker 1: some of those some of those acts of, persecution also
Speaker 1: includes you, know very pro fallungong Pro shenyun, message and
Speaker 1: it talks about the evils of. Persecution like it's clearly
Speaker 1: it's clearly a show with something to say beyond witness
Speaker 1: this ancient tradition Of chinese.
Speaker 4: Dance, yeah and you can read a lot about Shen.
Speaker 4: Yun one thing you can you can hear about at
Speaker 4: least is The Upstate New york training facility where Shen
Speaker 4: YUN i guess Fellon gong practitioners or Just shnyun dancers
Speaker 4: and performers go and learn really interesting.
Speaker 3: STUFF i mean to, me it's it's like it has
Speaker 3: to have a massive base of, operations, right BECAUSE i
Speaker 3: mean it's got to be hundreds and hundreds of individuals
Speaker 3: that are performing in these various iterations of this, show,
Speaker 3: RIGHT i, mean like and, like so you're saying there's
Speaker 3: a training facility almost like you think of For Circo.
Speaker 4: Sole, yeah it's it is called The Fai Shian, academy
Speaker 4: and it's In middleton Or, Middletown New.
Speaker 1: York and you, know post, pandemic if you depend on
Speaker 1: where you, live it's pretty easy for you to see
Speaker 1: this show when it comes into talent because it's you,
Speaker 1: know it used to travel a lot before BEFORE covid
Speaker 1: locked this. Down one THING i noticed is it seemed
Speaker 1: like A Shin young show was always on the. Way
Speaker 1: it just. Left it's definitely a business and just.
Speaker 4: Quick shout out To The New yorker And Gia, TOLENTINO
Speaker 4: i think that's her. NAME a twenty nineteen article you
Speaker 4: can read Called stepping into The, uncanny unsettling world Of
Speaker 4: shenyin just it describes to you exactly what you.
Speaker 1: See and let's stick with The New York. Times let's
Speaker 1: also stick with allegations of front companies Because followongong has
Speaker 1: a success story that may be familiar to a lot
Speaker 1: of people in THE, us though you may not know
Speaker 1: the full. Story it's a big conspiratorial great journalist over
Speaker 1: At New York Time times Named Kevin rose wrote this
Speaker 1: piece on a newspaper Called The Epoch times Epocch.
Speaker 4: That sounds so. Familiar, okay all, Right.
Speaker 1: So for, years The Epoch times was a kind of,
Speaker 1: small low budget newspaper that was against the government Of.
Speaker 1: China and you would if you're walking around the corners
Speaker 1: of Some New york, neighborhoods you would you would have
Speaker 1: this thing handed out for free to. You people like free.
Speaker 2: Stuff it's a smart.
Speaker 1: Strategy but in around twenty sixteen twenty seventeen or, so
Speaker 1: the paper made a couple of changes that turned it
Speaker 1: into one of the country's most powerful digital, platforms most
Speaker 1: powerful digital. PUBLISHERS i should. Say they became a world
Speaker 1: class source of right wing information by betting the farm On.
Speaker 1: FACEBOOK i don't know WHY i have so many farm analogies, today. Guys,
Speaker 1: Sorry but so they like When Donald trump came forward
Speaker 1: to become, president to become a presidential, candidate all this,
Speaker 1: stuff they got super on board and they embraced The
Speaker 1: trump presidency most, likely if you had to, guess because
Speaker 1: of his strong Anti china stance at the. Time more
Speaker 1: than anything. Else it was just like an enemy of
Speaker 1: my enemy kind of. THING i, guess how with my
Speaker 1: pick of my.
Speaker 4: Chicken.
Speaker 1: Whatever so the coverage that they had OF us politics
Speaker 1: beforehand was very much like, neutral also ran straight up
Speaker 1: reporting right like this bill, passes this bill doesn't. Pass
Speaker 1: this person is blah blah blah Of New. York but
Speaker 1: then it became super partisan and in twenty. Twenty this
Speaker 1: article was written In november twenty. Twenty rose reports that
Speaker 1: The Epic times and its affiliates are a force in
Speaker 1: right wing, media with tens of millions of social media
Speaker 1: followers spread across dozens of, pages and they have an
Speaker 1: online audience that rivals the audiences Of The Daily call And.
Speaker 1: Breitbart since twenty, seventeen they had been running some pretty interesting,
Speaker 1: experiments and you can also get a taste of the
Speaker 1: kind of stuff they. Cover they cover real world, events
Speaker 1: they cover international news an Anti china. Slant but then they,
Speaker 1: also you, know when they're on social, media which very
Speaker 1: adept at according To, rose they're posting stuff about like
Speaker 1: anti vaccine screen. Screeds where did the coronavirus really come?
Speaker 1: From and why doesn't THE prc want you to? Know
Speaker 1: it was made to lab on purpose by? Them because they're?
Speaker 1: Evil that's the whole. Headline why Is Bill gates directing
Speaker 1: the pandemic what's up with This jewish mob that controls the?
Speaker 1: World like that's the kind of stuff they're.
Speaker 4: Writing and if you listen to those headlines and those,
Speaker 4: topics it sounds very similar to the stuff you've probably
Speaker 4: seen floating around On.
Speaker 1: Facebook AND i think this is an important. Thing it's
Speaker 1: a very strange turn of. Events this is started as
Speaker 1: like a spiritual movement or an exercise. Group how did
Speaker 1: it become a media? Powerhouse how did it become you,
Speaker 1: know associated with this with this traveling show that we
Speaker 1: want to see that that almost weaponizes? Theater what what's
Speaker 1: the true story Of Lee Hong? Shi and at the
Speaker 1: very end of today's, show we have to advance the
Speaker 1: even crazier. Stuff i'm SURE i can't be the only
Speaker 1: person wondering is following along an asset of a foreign intelligence?
Speaker 1: Agency it's not out of the. Question it's that's the.
Speaker 1: Thing no hard proof of this has come to. Light
Speaker 1: please send us some if you have. Some but of
Speaker 1: course people are wondering is THE cia? Involved because this
Speaker 1: is this is like TEXTBOOK. Cia you get a you
Speaker 1: get a dissident group that may be disruptive to the status,
Speaker 1: quo and, boom you got some independent freedom. Fighters you
Speaker 1: got a bunch of college students who just happened to
Speaker 1: overthrow a government because they believe in, uh in these
Speaker 1: VERY us friendly, ideals and they just somehow got some.
Speaker 1: Guns like that's that's the. Thing, uh that's why people
Speaker 1: are asking. This And foal And gong has not done
Speaker 1: like some kind of armed attack on A chinese building
Speaker 1: at this. Point but people are asking these questions primarily
Speaker 1: because The west has such a terrible track record and
Speaker 1: terrible precedent for interfering and fares this. Way and, also
Speaker 1: these are human. Beings falanngong people are human. BEINGS i
Speaker 1: hope it's not a hot take that human beings shouldn't be, tortured.
Speaker 4: Kidnapped, nope that is a very cool.
Speaker 1: Take cool takes come for the hot, one stay for
Speaker 1: the cool and stuff they want you to. Know but
Speaker 1: there's one there's another. POINT i think one of us
Speaker 1: mentioned this. Earlier there's another big. Mystery where is all
Speaker 1: the money coming from that's powering these? Initiatives is this
Speaker 1: really all coming from like subscriptions to things by The
Speaker 1: Epoch media group or checking sales for Shn. YUDEN i,
Speaker 1: MEAN i don't know this is this is. Big we
Speaker 1: want To we want to know what you guys.
Speaker 4: Think, yeah if you have any information on the tithing
Speaker 4: process or like donation process or membership that, it you,
Speaker 4: know whatever it takes to stay within the, Organization if
Speaker 4: you have info on, that we'd love to hear, it
Speaker 4: because it's difficult to find anything transparent coming out of
Speaker 4: the organization or anything that you could believe coming out
Speaker 4: of an opposition. Writer so, yeah please write to us about.
Speaker 1: That, YEAH i just keep like. Matching you're you're trying
Speaker 1: to decide if you should eat a, sandwich and there's
Speaker 1: one person left saying this is the best sandwich. Ever
Speaker 1: if you don't eat, it you're going to, Die and
Speaker 1: then there's a person on the other side of the
Speaker 1: table saying this is the. Worst it doesn't even qualify as.
Speaker 1: Food if you do eat, it you'll die in a,
Speaker 1: slow agonizing way in A chinese prison like this is
Speaker 1: very intense and it's it's tough to figure out the.
Speaker 1: Truth BUT i think There's i'm going to, SAY i
Speaker 1: think there's some sketchy stuff going. On no matter how
Speaker 1: you slice, it there's. Something there's something they don't want
Speaker 1: you to. Know multiple instances of. It please let us
Speaker 1: know if you have, Experience please let us know what
Speaker 1: you think the future of this organization or these kinds
Speaker 1: of organizations will be and what it can tell us
Speaker 1: about the world. Today we try to be easy to
Speaker 1: find on The.
Speaker 4: Internet, yeah you can find us On facebook And. Twitter
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