WEBVTT - CLASSIC: What is Falun Gong? 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:02.960 Folks, if you live in the United States, and if 0:00:03.000 --> 0:00:06.199 you've ever been to a big city, you have doubtlessly 0:00:06.320 --> 0:00:09.239 seen a lot of flyers. One of those flyers is 0:00:09.240 --> 0:00:13.040 inevitably going to be for a performance called Shen. 0:00:12.920 --> 0:00:15.360 Yun n on the Moon Baby. 0:00:15.480 --> 0:00:18.840 Yeah, this is a This one gets a special shout 0:00:18.840 --> 0:00:21.720 out to a lot of our friends in the Chinese diaspora, 0:00:22.400 --> 0:00:26.960 notably our good friend and phenomenal artist jun Yi Leo, 0:00:27.600 --> 0:00:32.200 who actually Nola and I collect some of Juni's art. 0:00:32.520 --> 0:00:34.680 We can't say enough good about it. We have not 0:00:34.840 --> 0:00:39.720 asked Junii about the parents of shen Yun, an organization 0:00:40.000 --> 0:00:44.600 called Following Gong, which is a religious movement to its 0:00:44.640 --> 0:00:48.919 proponents and champions, a cult to its critics, and a 0:00:49.040 --> 0:00:51.599 terrorist organization to the government of China. Ya. 0:00:52.080 --> 0:00:53.600 He kind of nailed it there, ben I, dude, just 0:00:53.640 --> 0:00:55.480 want to point I was just talking to my girlfriend 0:00:55.680 --> 0:00:59.000 about shen Yun the other night and how ubiquitous their 0:00:59.040 --> 0:01:01.400 marketing is and how it's just as ubiquitous is in 0:01:01.400 --> 0:01:03.960 Atlanta as it is your New York city, And she 0:01:04.040 --> 0:01:05.880 pointed out to me that there are quite a few 0:01:05.959 --> 0:01:10.959 Shinyan parody troops doing shows and like drag shows revolving 0:01:11.000 --> 0:01:14.759 around kind of campy parodies of the old China before 0:01:14.840 --> 0:01:18.280 communism theme that Shinyun tends to promote. 0:01:18.800 --> 0:01:20.800 Is this a thing? Can you guys recall? Is this 0:01:20.840 --> 0:01:23.280 the thing that South Park has covered? 0:01:23.560 --> 0:01:25.720 I think they must have in some way, least in 0:01:25.800 --> 0:01:28.360 terms of the ubiquity of the advertising, but I don't 0:01:28.400 --> 0:01:30.560 know if they did a full episode. But it's so 0:01:30.840 --> 0:01:33.160 meme worthy, Like that's why I say shenyuon on the Moon. 0:01:33.240 --> 0:01:34.520 I think I saw a meme where it was like 0:01:34.560 --> 0:01:37.280 a billboard of Shenyun like on you know, just the 0:01:37.319 --> 0:01:39.040 surface of Mars or something. 0:01:40.040 --> 0:01:42.640 I'm just going back through the official Shenyun dot org 0:01:43.160 --> 0:01:46.000 website and looking at this huge write up they have 0:01:46.840 --> 0:01:50.880 with titles within this article like why the CCP is 0:01:50.920 --> 0:01:54.600 after us? It goes over their beliefs, it goes over 0:01:54.640 --> 0:01:57.680 things that the Chinese Communist Party has officially done to 0:01:57.760 --> 0:02:00.800 like thwart them from being able to perform things like that. 0:02:00.880 --> 0:02:03.000 Well, because again, like we'll talk about this in the episode, 0:02:03.000 --> 0:02:08.040 but their big thing is promoting you know a certain 0:02:08.120 --> 0:02:12.040 part of Chinese cultural history that does not involve communism, 0:02:12.160 --> 0:02:14.280 which I think is real, is a real bone of 0:02:14.280 --> 0:02:17.520 contention with the communist regime, saying that they're in some way, 0:02:18.000 --> 0:02:23.160 you know, disrespecting the current, you know, state of affairs. 0:02:23.280 --> 0:02:24.200 Is that is that right, Ben? 0:02:24.680 --> 0:02:26.720 Yeah, Yeah, you're absolutely on the money there in oels. 0:02:26.760 --> 0:02:31.200 Since nineteen ninety nine, the government of China has made concerted, 0:02:31.560 --> 0:02:36.280 serious efforts to suppress this movement, the spiritual practice, whether 0:02:36.320 --> 0:02:39.320 you call it Fallunnglong or following Daffa. And there have 0:02:39.360 --> 0:02:43.400 been accusations of very evil things up to an including 0:02:44.120 --> 0:02:48.680 oregon harvesting. So we recorded this back in twenty twenty one. 0:02:48.840 --> 0:02:52.160 We would love to hear your thoughts, especially if you 0:02:52.160 --> 0:02:56.919 yourself have ever attended a shen Yun performance. Let's roll the. 0:02:56.880 --> 0:03:04.720 Tape from UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History 0:03:04.800 --> 0:03:08.440 is riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now 0:03:09.200 --> 0:03:11.360 or learn this stuff they don't want you to know. 0:03:12.240 --> 0:03:14.079 A production of iHeartRadio. 0:03:24.400 --> 0:03:27.080 Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt, 0:03:27.400 --> 0:03:28.560 my name is Noah. 0:03:28.720 --> 0:03:31.320 They call me Ben. We're joined as always with our 0:03:31.400 --> 0:03:36.240 super producer Paul. Mission control decands, most importantly, you are you. 0:03:36.240 --> 0:03:39.720 You are here, and that makes this stuff they don't 0:03:39.800 --> 0:03:44.119 want you to know. We'll started a weird but very 0:03:44.200 --> 0:03:48.400 human direction here. Who hasn't amongst us in the audience 0:03:48.400 --> 0:03:51.360 today felt lost at one point or another. Think about it, 0:03:51.600 --> 0:03:55.200 washing the dishes, you're working, maybe on a repetitive job, 0:03:55.320 --> 0:03:57.560 or you're stuck in traffic. You heard the same song 0:03:57.680 --> 0:04:00.280 three times, You're walking up the street, the same path 0:04:00.320 --> 0:04:02.560 you always take, and it hits you all the suddenly. 0:04:03.200 --> 0:04:06.119 What does it all mean? Why are we even here? 0:04:06.400 --> 0:04:09.480 What's the point? Is existence? Just like a check mark 0:04:09.560 --> 0:04:10.960 participation grade? 0:04:11.800 --> 0:04:14.080 Yes, yes, yes, all of those? 0:04:14.400 --> 0:04:15.520 Okay, great, me too. 0:04:15.800 --> 0:04:17.520 That's a bleak, fellas that a bleak? 0:04:17.880 --> 0:04:19.760 Oh no, you haven't hit that yet? 0:04:19.920 --> 0:04:21.640 Oh god, yes, are you kidding me? I thought I 0:04:22.000 --> 0:04:24.599 use my GPS when I go down the street to 0:04:24.640 --> 0:04:27.280 the store. I mean, okay, that's a different kind of loss. 0:04:27.320 --> 0:04:29.599 But absolutely, of course, I think we've all been there. 0:04:30.320 --> 0:04:34.680 And this existential crisis is one of the great unifiers, 0:04:34.800 --> 0:04:38.479 I would argue of the human species. It draws a 0:04:38.520 --> 0:04:42.760 lot of people to structured belief systems, religions at any type, 0:04:43.320 --> 0:04:47.000 humanitarian work, you know, secular stuff too, even self improvement 0:04:47.080 --> 0:04:50.120 on a small scale, like hey, I'm going to exercise more, 0:04:50.160 --> 0:04:52.359 I'm going to take up meditation, I might get a 0:04:52.400 --> 0:04:56.040 new hobby. Heck, I'll take that improv class. These are 0:04:56.040 --> 0:05:00.600 all answers to, you know, the scary questions of mortality 0:05:00.640 --> 0:05:04.160 and meaning, and there is no shortage of individuals or 0:05:04.279 --> 0:05:07.680 organizations that are more than willing to give the loss 0:05:08.120 --> 0:05:12.160 and the troubled a feeling of serenity, fulfillment, and purpose. 0:05:12.520 --> 0:05:17.080 This brings us to today's episode, the winding mysterious and 0:05:17.120 --> 0:05:21.320 at times troubling story of something known as the Falloun Gong. 0:05:21.839 --> 0:05:25.840 In English, this literal translation would be something like law 0:05:25.920 --> 0:05:30.599 will practice, but it's a tricky thing to translate into English, 0:05:30.600 --> 0:05:32.760 so for now we're just going to say following Gong, 0:05:33.680 --> 0:05:36.200 So breathe deep. Here are the facts. 0:05:36.680 --> 0:05:40.039 So following Gong is also known as follown Dafa, and 0:05:40.080 --> 0:05:42.880 if you look at some of the official websites, you 0:05:42.920 --> 0:05:46.640 will see following Dafa a lot. It describes itself as 0:05:46.720 --> 0:05:51.760 a spiritual practice, as many has been just described earlier. 0:05:52.040 --> 0:05:55.880 It's rooted in Buddhist tradition and it consists of two 0:05:56.160 --> 0:06:01.279 primary components that feel pretty good. But the first one 0:06:01.360 --> 0:06:05.520 is self improvement through the study of teachings, and like 0:06:05.680 --> 0:06:10.240 many organizations, fallen Gong Fellendolpha has its own set of 0:06:10.279 --> 0:06:15.800 books and writings and teachings, and these are mainly about 0:06:15.839 --> 0:06:18.400 the qualities of the universe, the underlying stuff, the stuff 0:06:18.400 --> 0:06:22.160 that is that makes up existence, you and me, and 0:06:22.240 --> 0:06:27.359 the connection to everything, Truth, compassion, and forbearance. If you 0:06:27.360 --> 0:06:32.000 go on their website, it says very specifically truth, compassion, forbearance. 0:06:32.440 --> 0:06:36.039 The second component is going to be pretty I would 0:06:36.120 --> 0:06:39.440 say pretty familiar to a lot of us, and that 0:06:39.680 --> 0:06:44.000 is a gentle exercise and meditation. By gentle exercise we 0:06:44.160 --> 0:06:47.800 mean what is sometimes called low impact exercise. So this 0:06:47.880 --> 0:06:51.080 is not CrossFit push yourself past your limits stuff. This 0:06:52.080 --> 0:06:56.280 is stretchy, this is slow, This is meditative. This is 0:06:56.320 --> 0:07:00.839 not meant to break your bones. According to all the 0:07:00.880 --> 0:07:04.680 sources you can look at, including official Following Gong sources, 0:07:05.080 --> 0:07:08.920 it was developed by a guy named Li hong Shi. 0:07:09.840 --> 0:07:14.720 He says that he was the recipient of teachings from 0:07:14.800 --> 0:07:20.320 more than twenty masters Buddhism and Chigong, from which Followungong 0:07:20.600 --> 0:07:26.480 is descended. He tested this. According to him, he tested 0:07:26.520 --> 0:07:32.200 this practice this system out with several followers aka disciples 0:07:32.240 --> 0:07:35.200 first and then eventually brought it public in May of 0:07:35.320 --> 0:07:38.480 nineteen ninety two, so this is already we know this 0:07:38.640 --> 0:07:43.040 is a very new religion, even if the claims about 0:07:43.040 --> 0:07:49.320 its ancient roots are true. Chikong is We talked about 0:07:49.320 --> 0:07:51.800 this earlier, I think in an episode called what is Chi? 0:07:52.000 --> 0:07:58.840 But chigong is primarily composed of these frankly amazing breathing exercises. 0:07:59.560 --> 0:08:03.400 But Lee added something else to the mix. He added 0:08:03.560 --> 0:08:10.239 stories in here, accounts, anecdotes, a world full of fantastical things, 0:08:10.520 --> 0:08:16.000 and a world with hints of a forthcoming apocalypse, and 0:08:16.200 --> 0:08:20.720 his books became bestsellers. I don't want to poison the 0:08:20.720 --> 0:08:24.480 well here, but some of this path has you know, 0:08:25.280 --> 0:08:28.560 not for nothing have outside observers said. This bears some 0:08:28.600 --> 0:08:33.520 similarities with other leaders of movements like l. Ron Hubbard, 0:08:33.760 --> 0:08:39.320 who also also wrote extensively. But this was accepted by 0:08:39.480 --> 0:08:44.280 the government of China. It was accepted by the Chigong 0:08:44.640 --> 0:08:47.960 bodies right, because there are many Chigong movements, so the 0:08:48.400 --> 0:08:53.920 Chinese National Chigong Scientific Research Association in that same time 0:08:53.960 --> 0:08:58.480 period of nineteen ninety two, they also said, okay, yeah, 0:08:59.040 --> 0:09:03.600 we dig it, you know what I mean, full speed ahead. 0:09:04.000 --> 0:09:06.160 Ben, Ben, Can we just really quickly hit on those 0:09:06.200 --> 0:09:06.720 two books? 0:09:07.000 --> 0:09:12.120 Yeah, totally. The first two were Schwan Falung and Fallun Gong. 0:09:12.679 --> 0:09:12.800 Uh. 0:09:13.040 --> 0:09:17.400 These are kind of primers to the philosophy. Here is 0:09:17.520 --> 0:09:20.640 what we're doing based on what I learned. Here is 0:09:21.080 --> 0:09:23.160 the goal of what we're doing, you know what I mean? 0:09:23.440 --> 0:09:28.760 Filled with again, filled with stories that did not ordinarily 0:09:28.840 --> 0:09:33.280 occur in previous previous traditions of this sort. 0:09:33.679 --> 0:09:35.520 Oh yeah, And I just want to go back to 0:09:35.520 --> 0:09:39.199 your el Ron Hubbard comparison here. It's interesting because in 0:09:39.880 --> 0:09:43.400 Eleron's writings he kind of held off on the aliens 0:09:43.760 --> 0:09:47.480 and the the stuff that went beyond some of the 0:09:47.880 --> 0:09:49.400 self healing. 0:09:50.880 --> 0:09:52.960 When you paid your way in far enough. Yeah. 0:09:53.000 --> 0:09:55.640 But but in these books, it's just right there in 0:09:55.720 --> 0:09:57.600 front of you as soon as you start getting into 0:09:57.600 --> 0:10:00.960 the materials. I just I found that to be interesting. 0:10:01.440 --> 0:10:04.560 Yeah, Yeah, there's I guess you would say a little 0:10:04.559 --> 0:10:08.200 more transparency in that regard. But whatever you feel about 0:10:08.200 --> 0:10:10.400 those things, we want to be very clear here, we 0:10:10.640 --> 0:10:15.720 ourselves are not following gong practitioners. Although I think all 0:10:15.760 --> 0:10:19.840 of us have done things like meditation and mindful breathing 0:10:19.920 --> 0:10:24.120 and yoga, this is a different thing. And no matter 0:10:24.160 --> 0:10:27.880 how you feel about the claims that Lee makes no 0:10:27.920 --> 0:10:30.720 matter how you feel about the practices of the organization 0:10:30.960 --> 0:10:35.320 in terms of exercise and philosophy, there's no arguing this. 0:10:35.679 --> 0:10:40.240 Those books were instant bestsellers, and people across the country 0:10:40.240 --> 0:10:45.240 of China loved this idea, loved this concept, and Lee 0:10:45.360 --> 0:10:51.439 started making public demonstrations of his of his perceived abilities, 0:10:51.440 --> 0:10:54.319 which also ties in a little bit to our episodes 0:10:54.320 --> 0:10:56.439 on faith healing and laying on of hands. 0:10:56.800 --> 0:10:57.959 Okay, so back to the timeline. 0:10:58.000 --> 0:11:00.920 In December of nineteen ninety two, Lee hung z did 0:11:01.000 --> 0:11:05.800 his very first public demonstration of his abilities at the 0:11:05.840 --> 0:11:10.760 nineteen ninety two Oriental Health Expo in Beijing. Apparently he 0:11:11.080 --> 0:11:15.520 caused a paralyzed and wheelchair bound man to walk, destroyed 0:11:15.600 --> 0:11:20.120 gall and kidney stones within another individual, and cured difficult, 0:11:20.240 --> 0:11:24.319 quote difficult and complex illnesses of all kinds. So needless 0:11:24.320 --> 0:11:27.280 to say, he made quite a splash, and the director 0:11:27.400 --> 0:11:30.199 of the fair declared, is like you, you won the fair. 0:11:31.080 --> 0:11:35.400 He declared that Fallon Gong was the star cultivation system. 0:11:35.800 --> 0:11:37.800 Oh wow, what does that even mean? 0:11:38.040 --> 0:11:41.720 Like cultivating like the stars from the Uni from the galaxy. 0:11:41.960 --> 0:11:42.240 Mmm. 0:11:43.000 --> 0:11:45.440 I took it as a best in show, best in show, 0:11:45.480 --> 0:11:46.680 but still that's very I love the. 0:11:47.080 --> 0:11:49.360 Turn of phrase. Let's leave it there to me. It 0:11:49.400 --> 0:11:53.120 really is like you're, you know, the brightest shining boy 0:11:53.200 --> 0:11:53.640 in the room. 0:11:53.720 --> 0:11:56.520 Well, as Ben said there the laying on of hands 0:11:56.520 --> 0:11:59.360 episode that we did, I think everyone can hear the 0:11:59.360 --> 0:12:03.960 similarity there. And you know we we weren't there in 0:12:04.080 --> 0:12:07.800 nineteen ninety two. We can't tell you exactly what happened, 0:12:08.240 --> 0:12:11.440 you know, or if there were any plants in the audience, 0:12:12.240 --> 0:12:17.800 but if those things were true, they would be miracles. 0:12:18.040 --> 0:12:20.880 Well I was you know, you guys know my schedule. 0:12:20.920 --> 0:12:24.160 I was busy. I didn't get over there. Yeah, but 0:12:24.559 --> 0:12:25.880 I heard good things. 0:12:26.679 --> 0:12:30.240 Yeah, I was nine. I think in doing something with 0:12:30.320 --> 0:12:31.520 a Nintendo pretty sure. 0:12:31.600 --> 0:12:34.800 I don't think I should say where I was. In 0:12:34.880 --> 0:12:39.400 December of nineteen ninety three, at the nineteen ninety three Expo, 0:12:40.559 --> 0:12:44.600 Lee was given to awards and this is, you know, 0:12:44.679 --> 0:12:47.840 the second iteration of his appearance there. He got the 0:12:47.880 --> 0:12:53.320 Award for Advancing Boundary Science and the Chigong Master Most 0:12:53.400 --> 0:12:58.000 Acclaimed by the Masses. So that's like the no, and 0:12:58.240 --> 0:13:00.760 I am not dismissing this at all, just for an 0:13:00.800 --> 0:13:03.680 analog or a comparison. This is a lot like saying 0:13:04.840 --> 0:13:08.040 you got the Audience Appreciation Award. Yes, you know what 0:13:08.160 --> 0:13:11.200 I mean, people like you the most. So we started 0:13:11.200 --> 0:13:15.560 giving classes all over the country in the ways of 0:13:15.640 --> 0:13:20.600 this philosophy throughout the early to mid nineties, and for 0:13:20.640 --> 0:13:24.760 a while, as we mentioned, this enjoyed a great deal 0:13:24.800 --> 0:13:27.520 of domestic fame as well as what appeared to be 0:13:28.679 --> 0:13:34.440 somewhere between the open support of the Chinese government to 0:13:34.480 --> 0:13:38.720 the tacit support to at the very least toleration of it. Right, Like, 0:13:38.800 --> 0:13:45.000 they're not hurting anyone, they're not violating our unwritten law, 0:13:45.480 --> 0:13:47.760 don't mess with the money, let them go stretch in 0:13:47.760 --> 0:13:48.920 the park exactly. 0:13:49.280 --> 0:13:52.000 And in a way, it's kind of a nice little 0:13:52.880 --> 0:13:57.839 cultural at least information export, right, It's an interesting thing. 0:13:58.480 --> 0:14:02.319 It's a cool little peace that we can share. And wow, 0:14:02.360 --> 0:14:05.800 we've got this. I don't I want to say miracle worker, 0:14:05.840 --> 0:14:10.720 but we've got someone with essentially supernatural powers that practices 0:14:10.840 --> 0:14:15.760 in China. Cool, enjoy, be healthy, all o kod. 0:14:16.440 --> 0:14:21.960 Yeah, this goes internationals soon after. Like, when you think 0:14:22.000 --> 0:14:25.480 about the spread of this movement, I have to see 0:14:25.520 --> 0:14:29.160 it's impressive. You know, a few decades later people would 0:14:29.160 --> 0:14:33.480 call this kind of growth viral instead of exponential. Yeah, 0:14:33.840 --> 0:14:38.640 by nineteen nineteen ninety five or so, Lea is spreading 0:14:38.680 --> 0:14:42.200 his message past the borders of China. He's lecturing in 0:14:42.320 --> 0:14:47.560 Paris and Stockholm. He's lecturing in Sydney, in Houston, Texas, 0:14:47.600 --> 0:14:50.400 which seemed a weird draw, but these are the facts, 0:14:50.680 --> 0:14:53.560 and New York City in nineteen ninety six. But while 0:14:53.560 --> 0:14:58.240 he's out speaking abroad and spending a less and less 0:14:58.240 --> 0:15:03.520 time in China, things aren't going so well on the 0:15:03.560 --> 0:15:04.480 home front, are. 0:15:04.360 --> 0:15:08.600 They No, the tide was turning inside of China while 0:15:08.640 --> 0:15:12.040 he was gone, because in nineteen ninety five, the organization 0:15:12.160 --> 0:15:15.880 fell and Gong left the one that it had originally joined, 0:15:15.920 --> 0:15:21.280 the Key Goong Scientific Research Association, which you know could 0:15:21.400 --> 0:15:23.360 or could not be a big deal, but it does 0:15:23.440 --> 0:15:28.120 mean they're going independent, right, It means they're gaining power 0:15:28.520 --> 0:15:32.200 in some way, and the Chinese government started to see 0:15:32.240 --> 0:15:35.400 them as essentially a threat. And it's really because they 0:15:35.400 --> 0:15:39.480 were growing so exponentially and so quickly, and some of 0:15:39.520 --> 0:15:43.080 these spiritual beliefs, the religious teachings that were in those books, 0:15:43.480 --> 0:15:47.760 they were going a little bit against what would be 0:15:47.840 --> 0:15:50.920 considered traditional or at least the party line of what 0:15:50.960 --> 0:15:54.920 the party wanted its citizens to be thinking about, believing in, 0:15:55.640 --> 0:15:59.200 and ultimately they feared that this thing would grow so 0:15:59.280 --> 0:16:02.440 big it would be threat because it was independent of 0:16:02.480 --> 0:16:04.479 a lot of those internal institutions. 0:16:04.840 --> 0:16:07.880 Yeah, and you know this doesn't come from nowhere or 0:16:08.000 --> 0:16:13.480 necessarily uninformed paranoia. There is a long history in this 0:16:13.600 --> 0:16:16.640 area of the world, going back to the dynasty days 0:16:16.680 --> 0:16:21.520 in China, of the governing bodies having to actively and 0:16:21.640 --> 0:16:28.160 aggressively work against the possibility of domestic descent. In a way, 0:16:28.320 --> 0:16:30.720 the government at the time was reacting to what they 0:16:30.720 --> 0:16:35.160 saw the president as the precedent set by earlier domestic unrest. 0:16:35.640 --> 0:16:37.840 What is it that you think about this religion and 0:16:37.880 --> 0:16:40.240 this movement that caused it to catch on so much. 0:16:40.800 --> 0:16:43.800 It's just very appealing. I think if you look on 0:16:43.840 --> 0:16:47.280 the face of it, it's extremely appealing. You don't have 0:16:47.360 --> 0:16:52.160 to work too hard. It's mostly meditative and it seems 0:16:52.200 --> 0:16:54.200 to have a kindness on the front. And we're going 0:16:54.240 --> 0:16:55.920 to talk a little bit more about some of the 0:16:55.920 --> 0:17:00.160 ways some of the ways the ideas are spread and 0:17:00.200 --> 0:17:03.440 why they seem, especially when you bring in the persecution 0:17:03.480 --> 0:17:05.520 angle that we're going to get to why it seems 0:17:05.560 --> 0:17:08.600 like something you'd want to join to fight for. 0:17:08.920 --> 0:17:12.200 And the majority of from what we understand, the majority 0:17:12.280 --> 0:17:17.560 of Followngngong members are recruited by members of their biological families, 0:17:18.040 --> 0:17:21.280 So there is a furthering and a deepening of the 0:17:21.359 --> 0:17:25.760 sense of community in this endeavor, and community, from what 0:17:25.800 --> 0:17:31.240 I understand, is the thing that people like. It's true, 0:17:31.400 --> 0:17:36.000 people dig it. So as you said, the tides turning, 0:17:37.480 --> 0:17:42.760 the tides turning against the practitioners of Followungong because it's 0:17:42.760 --> 0:17:46.199 seen as a threat to the status quo. We know 0:17:46.359 --> 0:17:52.760 that sometime in this somewhere in this time period, members 0:17:52.760 --> 0:17:55.879 of Following Gong started becoming active online. There were early 0:17:55.920 --> 0:17:59.840 adopters of the Internet, but it's difficult to know exactly 0:18:00.080 --> 0:18:04.600 when this occurred because like the rators in Neil Stevenson's Anathem, 0:18:06.000 --> 0:18:09.439 they spend a lot of time changing the past or 0:18:09.480 --> 0:18:12.879 they A more diplomatic way would be to say, and 0:18:13.280 --> 0:18:16.439 I mean both the Chinese government and some factions of 0:18:16.440 --> 0:18:21.160 Following Gong they carefully edit and curate old material from 0:18:21.240 --> 0:18:25.239 their websites, so it's tough to know some of the 0:18:25.440 --> 0:18:28.920 specifics of timelines here. But they didn't take this line down, 0:18:29.240 --> 0:18:33.960 They got mad, and the practitioners started protesting outside of 0:18:34.080 --> 0:18:39.280 various media outlets in China that they've if they felt 0:18:39.280 --> 0:18:44.400 those outlets were misrepresenting the goals of Followungong and the 0:18:44.440 --> 0:18:47.560 lives and aims of the practitioners. Basically say, you know, 0:18:47.600 --> 0:18:52.200 stop being evil. That's it, that's not like on the 0:18:52.240 --> 0:18:55.600 face of it, that's that's a cool thing, not to 0:18:55.640 --> 0:18:58.600 be to be evil. Google once did that. 0:19:00.119 --> 0:19:03.439 No longer does I remember those days. 0:19:03.560 --> 0:19:05.960 It's no longer their motto, right, But also, don't be evil, 0:19:06.280 --> 0:19:07.600 way different from be good? 0:19:08.000 --> 0:19:08.880 Yeah, very Imma. 0:19:09.160 --> 0:19:10.280 We thought that was a weird one. 0:19:10.520 --> 0:19:12.880 Was it like sort of like a guiding principle sort 0:19:12.880 --> 0:19:15.600 of a reminder to themselves to like do a good 0:19:15.680 --> 0:19:19.320 job with the power that you've been you've given yourselves. 0:19:20.080 --> 0:19:22.240 That's a weird one. I always thought that was very strange. 0:19:22.359 --> 0:19:24.560 So this is nineteen nine, like we've led up to 0:19:24.680 --> 0:19:28.320 ninety six, right, that's when they're doing their protesting. Then 0:19:28.480 --> 0:19:32.720 the next year, as pressure is mounting from the party 0:19:32.760 --> 0:19:37.880 within China, Lee he ends up getting out of China 0:19:38.160 --> 0:19:40.800 And where does he head? New York City? 0:19:42.640 --> 0:19:46.359 Okay, yeah, because it wasn't he wasn't he wasn't he 0:19:46.400 --> 0:19:49.240 beginning to be branded as a dissident already? 0:19:49.560 --> 0:19:50.760 Yeah, four years before. 0:19:51.040 --> 0:19:53.040 Uh yeah, I was going to say, is you know, 0:19:53.359 --> 0:19:55.960 just picture Lee somewhere and he's been to New York 0:19:56.000 --> 0:19:58.840 before at this point, and he says, hey, kid, you 0:19:58.880 --> 0:20:01.240 can make it here, you could make it anywhere. And 0:20:01.280 --> 0:20:06.000 then he has that whole sitcom moment. Yeah he does. 0:20:06.080 --> 0:20:07.959 He does go to New York. You know, something's in 0:20:07.960 --> 0:20:12.760 the wind, I would imagine. And let's pause here, we've 0:20:12.760 --> 0:20:15.440 got one. We're waiting for the other shoe to drop. 0:20:15.560 --> 0:20:19.240 So let's let's hear from our sponsors who may not 0:20:19.320 --> 0:20:20.840 be Fellongong today. 0:20:22.320 --> 0:20:26.240 Maybe we don't know it's it's probably not Felling Gong, 0:20:26.400 --> 0:20:28.040 but it is shn yin. 0:20:29.240 --> 0:20:33.440 Uh spoilers, We'll be back to watch the hammer fall. 0:20:39.560 --> 0:20:45.159 Fast forward nineteen ninety nine, there's a massive protest against 0:20:45.240 --> 0:20:48.280 the government of China on the part of the Ballongngong. 0:20:49.680 --> 0:20:55.640 Shortly after that protest, the PRC begins a nationwide crackdown 0:20:55.720 --> 0:20:59.800 and they go ham there's this huge propaganda push there, 0:20:59.840 --> 0:21:04.120 aim is to eradicate the following gong. How serious are 0:21:04.119 --> 0:21:08.440 they about this? Well, they make a new security agency 0:21:08.560 --> 0:21:12.920 whose entire job is to eliminate Following Gong. It's called 0:21:12.960 --> 0:21:17.520 the six' Ten. Office it started In june of nineteen ninety. 0:21:17.600 --> 0:21:22.760 Nine to describe some of the stuff that the government 0:21:22.880 --> 0:21:28.640 was doing against this. Organization they they were bulldozing educational, 0:21:28.680 --> 0:21:31.120 tapes you know WHAT i. Mean they were pulling all 0:21:31.160 --> 0:21:34.560 the stuff they could off the internet if. Possible they 0:21:34.640 --> 0:21:39.040 were publicly denouncing any members if it got to the 0:21:39.080 --> 0:21:42.879 point where, like depending on your, job it might be 0:21:42.960 --> 0:21:47.280 dangerous for your first year employment, status uh to be 0:21:47.320 --> 0:21:50.119 a member Of Following, gong and then soon after it 0:21:50.160 --> 0:21:54.720 maybe dangerous for your personal. Freedom they also Blocked oh 0:21:54.800 --> 0:21:57.879 they didn't just Block Following gong, websites they blocked websites 0:21:57.920 --> 0:22:01.320 from other. Places and there were a few countries that Mentioned. 0:22:01.320 --> 0:22:04.639 Follongong they were, like, eh, SORRY i know your blog 0:22:04.760 --> 0:22:09.760 is mainly about your backpacking travels Through Southeast, asia but 0:22:09.880 --> 0:22:13.560 you mentioned the wrong, Organization so now your whole website 0:22:13.640 --> 0:22:15.359 is shut down for one point three billion. 0:22:15.400 --> 0:22:15.720 People. 0:22:16.560 --> 0:22:19.600 Wow so imagine you start as an exercise group and 0:22:19.680 --> 0:22:21.760 the next thing you, know you're in a full on 0:22:22.520 --> 0:22:26.520 information war with one of the world's most powerful, countries 0:22:26.600 --> 0:22:29.960 a country that's also becoming one of the world's leaders 0:22:30.200 --> 0:22:33.440 in this kind of asymmetrical. Warfare this Gets david And 0:22:33.480 --> 0:22:36.680 goliath pretty. Quickly if the story so far is. 0:22:36.640 --> 0:22:38.879 True and this is a good time to bring this. 0:22:38.960 --> 0:22:43.040 Up Maybe ben in our research for this, episode And, 0:22:43.080 --> 0:22:45.199 ben you pointed this out AND i also noticed, it 0:22:45.280 --> 0:22:47.720 and know, What i'm sure you did. Too, really what 0:22:47.800 --> 0:22:52.240 you find on The, internet save for a few mostly objective, 0:22:52.920 --> 0:22:57.119 writers is information that is extremely Pro Fello gong or 0:22:57.359 --> 0:22:59.600 extremely Anti Fellan. 0:22:59.640 --> 0:23:03.119 Goong, well even The american media for quite some time 0:23:03.560 --> 0:23:07.000 was very Pro Fello, gong it would, seem because they 0:23:07.040 --> 0:23:10.280 sort of acted as this like buffer against like the you, 0:23:10.320 --> 0:23:15.600 know the distrustfulness that is pretty common around Like chinese information, 0:23:15.720 --> 0:23:18.760 control and they sort of represented almost this, like you, 0:23:18.800 --> 0:23:22.399 know example of the heavy handedness of The chinese. Government in, 0:23:22.440 --> 0:23:25.520 fact there's an interview with the founder Of Fallong gong 0:23:25.680 --> 0:23:28.399 In time magazine in nineteen ninety. Nine SO i, mean in, 0:23:28.520 --> 0:23:32.200 general The american press was pretty pretty kind to them 0:23:32.200 --> 0:23:32.399 as an. 0:23:32.480 --> 0:23:37.280 Organization THE us would enter this information war later for 0:23:37.600 --> 0:23:41.080 motivations of its. OWN i suspect motivations of its, Own 0:23:41.080 --> 0:23:43.800 but Maybe i'm being a. Jerk so back in ninety, 0:23:43.880 --> 0:23:48.280 nine same year as that, time interview Following gong becomes 0:23:48.440 --> 0:23:56.040 illegal In. China, however the horse of dissidents has left 0:23:56.200 --> 0:24:00.280 the proverbial. Barn the followers are widespread in an other 0:24:00.320 --> 0:24:03.480 thing that maybe THE prc didn't count. On these followers 0:24:03.520 --> 0:24:07.000 are tremendously media. Savvy REMEMBER i said they were earlier 0:24:07.000 --> 0:24:10.720 adopters of things like The internet and emerging. Technology so 0:24:10.880 --> 0:24:16.040 in the years since being declared a quote heretical organization 0:24:16.359 --> 0:24:21.359 that threatens social, stability they have dispatched thousands upon thousands 0:24:21.359 --> 0:24:27.679 of press, releases these staged live events and, protests things 0:24:27.720 --> 0:24:32.359 that are purposely and beautifully designed to gather headlines to 0:24:32.359 --> 0:24:37.639 get international eyes on the. Story they've also kept a 0:24:37.800 --> 0:24:40.840 very strong internet. Presence you can check out some of 0:24:40.880 --> 0:24:48.240 their official official territories online. Now they also became increasingly, 0:24:48.440 --> 0:24:52.000 litigious and they would slap people with a defamation lawsuit 0:24:52.240 --> 0:24:56.840 if they published something saying saying stuff that to us 0:24:56.880 --> 0:24:59.760 might even seem. Innocuous you, know there was still there 0:24:59.800 --> 0:25:02.239 was try to bring the hammer down the way that 0:25:02.280 --> 0:25:06.080 The chinese government was bringing the hammer down on. Them 0:25:06.520 --> 0:25:09.880 and like we alluded to just a few minutes, ago 0:25:10.160 --> 0:25:14.680 Following gong adherents for a very long time were treated 0:25:15.800 --> 0:25:19.560 in an extraordinarily kind way by The western. Press they 0:25:19.600 --> 0:25:23.760