Speaker 1: On the Doodcast, the questions asked if movies have women
Speaker 1: and um are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands
Speaker 1: or do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zef in best
Speaker 1: start changing it with the bec del Cast. Hey, Caitlin, Yeah, Jamie.
Speaker 1: Do you feel like podcast hosts are supposed to please
Speaker 1: each other? Do you think it's one podcast host responsibility
Speaker 1: to bring pleasure to the other podcast host? Or am
Speaker 1: I just thinking too binary about our media? Sounds to
Speaker 1: me like you've been brainwashed by the patriarchy bike podcast
Speaker 1: gotten or should I say the pod triarchy? Wow? How
Speaker 1: about that? It's true? It's true. It makes you think,
Speaker 1: it makes you think. I hope, I hope Jack is
Speaker 1: listening to this because we've been brainwashed by the patriarch
Speaker 1: a k a. Jacob Bryan with little devil ears on
Speaker 1: top of him. Oh my gosh. Well that was what
Speaker 1: I had for the intro. I was I was like,
Speaker 1: maybe we'll start debating, like Trisian Elaine being like, I
Speaker 1: don't know, I don't care if my podcast co host
Speaker 1: feels pleasure, and then I would be like, but you
Speaker 1: have to bring your podcast co host pleasure. That's our
Speaker 1: that's why I was put on this earth, Jamie, I
Speaker 1: want you to feel all the pleasure that you want
Speaker 1: to feel. Now it sounds like work for me, and
Speaker 1: I don't want to do it. Well, we already have
Speaker 1: a lively debate going Welcome to the Bechtel Cast. My
Speaker 1: name is Jamie Loftus, my name is Caitlin Durante, and
Speaker 1: this is our show about movies in which we look
Speaker 1: at them through an intersectional feminist lens, using the Bechtel
Speaker 1: Test as a jumping off point. There's a lot more
Speaker 1: to discuss, but we kick it off. Actually we end
Speaker 1: the episode on the Bechdel test, so what are we talking?
Speaker 1: And then sometimes we don't even remember to do it.
Speaker 1: As as we've said multiple times, it's so fun to like,
Speaker 1: and not in a way that it's got your ass,
Speaker 1: but in a way that you're like, oh, okay, just
Speaker 1: like you know how people will tell like simple social
Speaker 1: wise before, like oh I love your pig whatever, you know,
Speaker 1: But when someone says that about the Becktel Cast and
Speaker 1: then they're like, yeah, that's such a cool idea figuring
Speaker 1: out if movies past the Bechdel test, I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: so you have not actually have not actually listened. And
Speaker 1: then I go to their little cabin upstate and I
Speaker 1: kill them because they fall in love with me so
Speaker 1: hard that they die. Yeah, and then you piston ship
Speaker 1: and put your tampons in a jar, and then there's
Speaker 1: voice over about like, this is actually really cool that
Speaker 1: I'm doing this, and I did that was one of
Speaker 1: my favorite parts when she's doing like the grossest thing
Speaker 1: I can think of, and then there's a voiceover that's like, actually,
Speaker 1: this is people need to chill out about the fact
Speaker 1: that I'm putting my pisth and ship in a jar.
Speaker 1: And I'm like, wow, makes you think, makes you think? Yeah?
Speaker 1: So what is the Bechtel Test? Though? Oh yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: So the Bechtel Test is a media metric created by
Speaker 1: queer cartoonist Alison Bechdel. Is sometimes called the Bechtel Wallace Test.
Speaker 1: There's many versions of the test, but the version we
Speaker 1: use is that a piece of media should feature at
Speaker 1: least one exchange between two people of a marginalized gender
Speaker 1: with names, and they must speak to each other about
Speaker 1: something other than a man, and for our purposes, it
Speaker 1: has to be a meaningful exchange. I won't even get
Speaker 1: into it too much, because this movie passes pretty handily.
Speaker 1: I feel like we don't need to like split, maybe
Speaker 1: not as handily as I would have expected it does,
Speaker 1: but like, yeah, okay, Caitlin is gonna be hard on.
Speaker 1: It's gonna be Caitlin did not like the movie. I
Speaker 1: don't know how I feel about the movie. I'm in
Speaker 1: too chaotic a headspace. But that is why we bring
Speaker 1: a guest on, because we don't know shit about ship
Speaker 1: at times, and I feel like in the horror genre,
Speaker 1: we that is, that's where we've been, that's where we're at,
Speaker 1: and so we have to bring on extra special experts
Speaker 1: in the genre to explain to us what the funk
Speaker 1: is going on. So let's bring guests. I love this movie.
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, I'm so excited. Unemasginedly love this movie.
Speaker 1: I've seen it definitely more than six times. I was
Speaker 1: trying to count last night when I watched it this
Speaker 1: past time. So at least six maybe minimum, tin maybe
Speaker 1: like at least in Yeah, I don't know. Okay, Well, okay,
Speaker 1: so the voice you just heard is that of director
Speaker 1: of social Media at Crypt TV, where there's an there's
Speaker 1: a new show coming out this fall called Girl in
Speaker 1: the Woods. It's streaming on Peacock TV. It was co
Speaker 1: executive produced by our guest from last week's episode, Jasmine Johnson,
Speaker 1: so be sure to check out The Girl in the Woods.
Speaker 1: This week's guest is Alyssa and not Freyo. Hello, Welcome, Welcome,
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for having me. A big fan
Speaker 1: of the longtime listener. Yay, thanks, thanks for coming on.
Speaker 1: We're so stoked to have you. And we're like because
Speaker 1: you're you and also because you know so much about horror,
Speaker 1: and as we were just alluding to, it's not a
Speaker 1: genre either of us have a huge history with so
Speaker 1: before so we're covering the Love which at twenty sixteen movie.
Speaker 1: And so Alyssa, let's start by just talking about like
Speaker 1: your history with horror, because I'm interested in, like what
Speaker 1: draws you to the genre, what got you in, and
Speaker 1: then we'll kind of get into the movie. So, growing up,
Speaker 1: I was not into horror. I was Disney movies only childhood,
Speaker 1: Like my parents did not allow anything beyond that. And uh,
Speaker 1: I think I saw The Shining in college, which I
Speaker 1: really liked. But my foreign of horror experience was my
Speaker 1: freshman year of high school. At a boy girls sleepover,
Speaker 1: they played Texas Chainsaw Massacre, the remake, and it was
Speaker 1: the scariest fucking thing that's ever happened to me, and
Speaker 1: it was Yeah, it was horrible. I was like, I
Speaker 1: never want to see another horror movie again. That was horrible.
Speaker 1: And also everyone was pranking each other all night, so
Speaker 1: it was like extra spooky. So I saw I swaw
Speaker 1: off horror for a while. And then college, I liked
Speaker 1: the Shining that I took a class where I had
Speaker 1: to watch The Ring. Walked out of that screening straight up,
Speaker 1: was like, no, this is too scary. I saw The
Speaker 1: Ring probably I don't remember when that movie came out,
Speaker 1: but I saw it at my cousin's house shortly after
Speaker 1: it came out, and I like pissed myself and had
Speaker 1: to go home. That movie is very scary. It's so scary.
Speaker 1: I can't watch that. I have not gone back to
Speaker 1: Texas Chansaw. I tried to watch the seventies one. I'm
Speaker 1: still like, it's not about it. It's too scary. It's
Speaker 1: just like, yeah, trauma, memory's scary. Then I saw Alien
Speaker 1: and Aliens and I was like, wait, what the funk
Speaker 1: this was a movie in the eighties and no one
Speaker 1: told me about it until I'm fucking furious. Uh. And
Speaker 1: then I also saw the Thing that year and I
Speaker 1: was like, wait, this was here the whole time and
Speaker 1: no one told me. And then I also saw Evil
Speaker 1: Dead too, and I just loved all of that, like
Speaker 1: super extreme creature and like, I really love campy horror stone. Also,
Speaker 1: I've been and so I've been working at krypt since.
Speaker 1: So I'm coming up on my four year anniversary. Um
Speaker 1: can't but yeah, the company has come a long way.
Speaker 1: But we we make we're digital multimedia companies. We've started
Speaker 1: by making short films on Facebook and YouTube and now
Speaker 1: we have show on Peacock. I make TikTok's with our
Speaker 1: monsters and they do a bunch of really silly stuff.
Speaker 1: There's there's a TikTok of the Looksie, one of our monsters,
Speaker 1: with this guy Johnny bridge Hold and they're like flirting
Speaker 1: with each other and Tricy Mittel liked it on Twitter,
Speaker 1: so like that's like one of my things that I
Speaker 1: was part of, and I'm like, you've made it my dream,
Speaker 1: I've made it, Yeah, exactly, That's so cool. Okay. And
Speaker 1: then so so you like know your ship. It does
Speaker 1: bring me some comfort that you're also a latecomer to
Speaker 1: the genre, because I feel like there's a lot of
Speaker 1: the horror horror fans I've spoken with in the past,
Speaker 1: they're like, I was born, I was born into horror.
Speaker 1: There definitely is some like gate keepiness about some of
Speaker 1: the community. There are other people I've found that the
Speaker 1: crypt community has definitely built themselves around are the people
Speaker 1: who are just lovers of horror who want to share
Speaker 1: it with other people and want to welcome people in
Speaker 1: wherever you know that ends up being. So I have
Speaker 1: another friend of mine, this guy dead Meat, who does
Speaker 1: a kill Count YouTube channel, and yeah, I think about yeah,
Speaker 1: oh yeah. So for a lot of kids who don't
Speaker 1: watch the horror movies, they can watch the kill Count
Speaker 1: and it's like a silly way of like getting into
Speaker 1: horror or like watching something that is too scary for you.
Speaker 1: So yeah, there's a lot of horror fans that are
Speaker 1: more welcoming and want to get people in. Nice Oh
Speaker 1: my gosh. So then as far as your relationship with
Speaker 1: the Love, which you said you love it and you've
Speaker 1: seen it several times. I love this movie. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: it came out in sixteen. I saw it. I think
Speaker 1: it was because they were doing a screening of it
Speaker 1: at the New Beverley and they had a bunch of
Speaker 1: Annabeller's original paintings hung up in the theater. So there
Speaker 1: was a night where she was there, I think, but
Speaker 1: I didn't see her in person, but I did get
Speaker 1: to see all of her original paintings because she directed, wrote, produced,
Speaker 1: made the costumes, made the sets, the score. Yeah yeah,
Speaker 1: everything she did everything that blew me away, because yeah,
Speaker 1: I was like, it took her like, what like seven
Speaker 1: years to make this movie. Yeah, so wild. Yeah. So,
Speaker 1: So another friend of mine had seen it at the
Speaker 1: New Beverley and was like, Melissa, this is exactly your ship.
Speaker 1: You need to go, Like do you love spooky stuff
Speaker 1: and like sixties mud horror, campy like CULTI And so
Speaker 1: I went and I saw and I was like, It's
Speaker 1: just the best thing I've ever seen. I just also
Speaker 1: seeing it in a theater with people, everyone was laughing.
Speaker 1: And so there have been other times since then. I'm
Speaker 1: now showing it to people and I've been like looking
Speaker 1: at them expectedly and they're like, I don't know how
Speaker 1: to react to this, like, I'm kind of freaked out, hello,
Speaker 1: because Caitlin and I had like different degrees of reaction
Speaker 1: to that, and it does. I can't see how seeing
Speaker 1: this movie in a theater would have made a difference,
Speaker 1: because it does feel like especially with part of my
Speaker 1: so my history with this movie is I have no
Speaker 1: history with this movie, and I was very excited that
Speaker 1: you brought it to us because they had heard of
Speaker 1: it several times. But I just had no I didn't
Speaker 1: know anything because this movie is streaming and a lot
Speaker 1: of places, and I was really stoked to watch it,
Speaker 1: and I felt like I didn't have the pre existing
Speaker 1: knowledge of what was being like pastiche to understand some
Speaker 1: of the references. So I'm excited to go through them
Speaker 1: because I think that, like I mean, in terms of
Speaker 1: like if you showed me this movie and I did
Speaker 1: not know when it came out, would not have been
Speaker 1: like I feel like she nailed making it seem like
Speaker 1: a movie from the seventies, Like in every single respect,
Speaker 1: I never would have guessed that this came out in
Speaker 1: the last ten years. You know, it's shot on thirty
Speaker 1: five millimeter film and she's done. She did a lot
Speaker 1: of collecting of vintage items, furniture and clothing and a
Speaker 1: lot of stuff she remade herself. There are several tells though,
Speaker 1: because there are modern cars and literally opens a cell phone.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, I call in the restaurant. That's so.
Speaker 1: There are two other references. There's a Stepford Wives References
Speaker 1: which comes out in two and they referenced DNA testing,
Speaker 1: which does not come into practice until So those are
Speaker 1: the tales. So yeah, it's like I feel, I I
Speaker 1: have a lot of questions and things I want to
Speaker 1: like talk through and then criticisms as well. But I
Speaker 1: do I mean, on its face, the like, I feel
Speaker 1: like I'm gonna skew towards giving this movie the benefit
Speaker 1: of the doubt in a lot of areas because it's
Speaker 1: such a labor of love, and it's like I feel,
Speaker 1: you know, it's like almost no directors get the chance
Speaker 1: to do every single part of a movie and work
Speaker 1: on it for the better part of a decade. And
Speaker 1: the fact that a like a woman whose entire mission
Speaker 1: statement for her whole career has been to see things
Speaker 1: through the female gaze and and channel that I think
Speaker 1: is so admirable and just really fucking cool. So I'm yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm excited to talk about it. UM. Caitlin, what's your
Speaker 1: history with The Love Which? I had never seen it either,
Speaker 1: It's only been the past three or four days since
Speaker 1: I first saw it. I will similarly have to talk
Speaker 1: through my feelings. Caitlyn hated it. She hate this movie.
Speaker 1: I'm sorry everybody, but I don't like it. Um. I
Speaker 1: think it has a lot to do with wait for listeners.
Speaker 1: Alyssa just pant over to a framed poster she has
Speaker 1: of the Love Witch. I also dressed as a love
Speaker 1: Which for Halloween. In no way that's as good. I
Speaker 1: did the rainbow code. You did the rainbow The rainbow
Speaker 1: code was gorgeous, and then knowing that Annabeller made the
Speaker 1: rainbow coat made it better. Like, that's so cool. I'm
Speaker 1: excited that Kayle hated it, though, because I'm excited to
Speaker 1: have this conversation and this is exactly what I wanted. Okay,
Speaker 1: this is an open forum, baby, I'm I'm a centrist. Okay, yeah,
Speaker 1: the spectrum is represented here. UM. As far as how
Speaker 1: you might feel about The Love Which, UM, I will
Speaker 1: try not to come down too too hard on it
Speaker 1: because there are some things that it's attempting that I appreciate.
Speaker 1: But then there's like I have a whole other, like
Speaker 1: monologue prepared about what it means to be a true feminist,
Speaker 1: and that means that I can hate a feminist piece
Speaker 1: of art and that's okay, yeah spicy, I know. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean, well that's been we've been talking about that since.
Speaker 1: Is like equality means that every one can be mediocre
Speaker 1: ship and that's fine. Can bet, yeah, girl can bet?
Speaker 1: But if I girl, oh no, must like other girl things.
Speaker 1: But women support women, okay. Always. I feel like that's
Speaker 1: what was that horrible movie. I feel like that's bombshell feminism.
Speaker 1: That's like I have to empathize with Gretchen Carlson because
Speaker 1: we're and you're like, no, I do not, baby, I
Speaker 1: do not. Like, Yeah, I'm excited to get into that
Speaker 1: because it's like, yeah, it's like if it's not your thing,
Speaker 1: it's not your thing. Like that's fine, yeah, all right,
Speaker 1: should we should we get into it? Let's get into it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you want to recap she want to recap it. I'll
Speaker 1: be recapping it. Here we go. So, as we said,
Speaker 1: the movie is very visually stylistic and homage and perhaps
Speaker 1: even parody of like pulp novels and like technicolor B
Speaker 1: movie melodramas of the nineties sixties. Down to the acting style,
Speaker 1: to which I appreciate. I wasn't expecting that. I felt
Speaker 1: like that was, like, the visuals are beautiful. Knowing that
Speaker 1: the director made all the visuals is really cool to know.
Speaker 1: But I felt like it was like kind of the
Speaker 1: act the B movie acting that sold me on it. Weirdly,
Speaker 1: I don't know, because I don't know how to describe
Speaker 1: what kind of acting it is that they're doing. It's
Speaker 1: not great. It's very stilted dialogue and like you can see,
Speaker 1: at least for me, like I feel like I can
Speaker 1: see the directing and I can like hear what directions
Speaker 1: she gave the actors. And also there are many there
Speaker 1: are a few points. I can't remember the woman's name
Speaker 1: who's like the Queen of the Witches or whatever, but
Speaker 1: she's like clearly looking at a card off camera, Barbara Barbara.
Speaker 1: She's like very clearly like reading off of a card,
Speaker 1: being like whiches have always been burned, and keeps looking
Speaker 1: back and forth. And there's like no big names in
Speaker 1: this movie, so it's hard, like it was kind of
Speaker 1: fun to be Like, I wonder if that actor legitimately
Speaker 1: has no talent or if they're playing a game of
Speaker 1: four d ches. I don't know about hard to say,
Speaker 1: but I thought Samantha Robinson was really, really, really good
Speaker 1: in this part. It's I don't know how many actors
Speaker 1: can but I okay, well we disagree on that. Like
Speaker 1: I think she was in terms of like what it
Speaker 1: seems like they wanted her to do, she did it.
Speaker 1: I think she nailed this part. I think she fucking
Speaker 1: was perfect for it. I don't think that anyone else
Speaker 1: could have done it and sold it this way. But
Speaker 1: I've never seen her in anything before. She's also in
Speaker 1: this movie called Cam. She's not the main character of it,
Speaker 1: but it's about a cam girl and like a competing
Speaker 1: we've we've had Issa on the Pot before. Oh yeah, okay, yeah,
Speaker 1: I think I definitely listened to your episode. Yeah. I
Speaker 1: think that she came on for easy A Yes anyway, yes, okay,
Speaker 1: So we meet that character Elaine. She's driving in a
Speaker 1: red convertible. Her voice over tells us that she's starting
Speaker 1: a new life. We see shots of a man drinking
Speaker 1: something that seems to be poisoned. It turns out that
Speaker 1: this is her ex husband Jerry, who she may or
Speaker 1: may not have murdered. Then Elaine gets pulled over by
Speaker 1: a cop. We'll put a pin in that guy. But
Speaker 1: then she continues on her way. Her voice over continues
Speaker 1: and she basically is saying, like, when Jerry left me,
Speaker 1: I devoured everything I could about how to get your
Speaker 1: man back. So she's on a mission. She arrives at
Speaker 1: this house she's moving into. This woman Trish lets her in,
Speaker 1: and then she and Trish go to this Victorian tea
Speaker 1: room where they have a conversation about love and romance
Speaker 1: and please using men love Trish rooting for Trish um.
Speaker 1: Elaine tells Trish how the day her husband Jerry left
Speaker 1: her was the day that she died, but then she
Speaker 1: was reborn as a witch. Uh. Then we see Elaine
Speaker 1: making a love potion and she sort of like praise
Speaker 1: to the goddess to be sent a beautiful sweet man.
Speaker 1: Then she meets this guy Wayne, and she has him
Speaker 1: take her to his house in the woods, where she
Speaker 1: gives him her potion and mesmerizes him with some dancing
Speaker 1: and also the lining of her coat and also this
Speaker 1: hallucinigenic herbs. Yes, I figured that was part of the potion.
Speaker 1: Wayne is I mean, you know r I p in
Speaker 1: a second. But Wayne is such a piece of work
Speaker 1: where I just never knew how he was, Like just
Speaker 1: such a what was what was the word he used
Speaker 1: to describe himself. That was just a way of saying horny,
Speaker 1: like a libertine Like yeah, I was just like, okay,
Speaker 1: so you're a horny Like it makes me laugh so
Speaker 1: much when horny people use fancy words to describe themselves.
Speaker 1: I'm like, you could just say your horny and we'll
Speaker 1: all know what you're saying. And it doesn't make you
Speaker 1: a genius to be horny. Sorry, Like you're not like
Speaker 1: galaxy horny nous what people intellectualize being horny. It cracks
Speaker 1: me up. Um, So he has drink this potion that
Speaker 1: he doesn't know is this love potion, and then he's
Speaker 1: all like, ah, I feel so weird, and then they
Speaker 1: have sex, and then he seems to very painfully fall
Speaker 1: in love with her to the point where he dies.
Speaker 1: It becomes from it. It's like he it almost like
Speaker 1: he almost like Benjamin Buttons, where he becomes more and
Speaker 1: more baby like and then he dies. Yeah, he's like
Speaker 1: screaming and crying. Yeah, like he's calling for his mom
Speaker 1: and then he and then he dies and then he dies.
Speaker 1: That was fascinating. So he dies, and then she buries
Speaker 1: his body, along with a witch bottle that she makes
Speaker 1: that she puts her urine and a used tampon into.
Speaker 1: Then she meets up with some witch friends at a
Speaker 1: burlesque show, Barbara and gayan I'm not sure. Um. They
Speaker 1: talk about love spells and how Elaine should be careful
Speaker 1: with using them, and they talk about how they as
Speaker 1: women need to approach love and sex and it's mostly
Speaker 1: gay and being like this is how women should have love,
Speaker 1: this is how women should sex, and dancing sexy is
Speaker 1: actually good chicken soup for the for the lady, you're
Speaker 1: just like, shut up, okay. And again it's like that
Speaker 1: actor I thought did a really good job of making
Speaker 1: me want them to stop talking just being real nasty,
Speaker 1: just being a gross person. Yes, then we get what
Speaker 1: might be a flashback but also just might be the
Speaker 1: next scene, which is a just kind of like ceremonial
Speaker 1: ritual where a lane I think it's like inducted into
Speaker 1: the witch coven or there's some induction type ritual. Okay,
Speaker 1: got it. Then we cut to the cop that had
Speaker 1: pulled a lane over at the beginning of the movie.
Speaker 1: This is Sergeant Griff Meadows. He has been promoted and
Speaker 1: now he's a detective who starts investigating the death of Wayne,
Speaker 1: the guy who died after taking Elaine's love potion. They
Speaker 1: find his buried body and the witch bottle that Elaine
Speaker 1: left behind with her tampon and urine. I was like,
Speaker 1: Elaine really does leave behind a lot of evidence, evidence
Speaker 1: for an evidence like that was I was like, Okay,
Speaker 1: it's very campy because she has just left like so
Speaker 1: many different ways to identify her on the scene, a
Speaker 1: very shallow grave with you everything that belongs to her
Speaker 1: bodily and physically right on top, like just a pile
Speaker 1: of different DNA samples, and here's my driver's license, and
Speaker 1: here's my birth want, here's my actually my phone number,
Speaker 1: and feel free to text. So, like, the cops find
Speaker 1: the body because the teacher that works with Wayne is
Speaker 1: kind of seeing what's happening and she reports him missing,
Speaker 1: and so that's why the cops go up there. Right
Speaker 1: that woman also saw Wayne leave with Elaine, so the
Speaker 1: mountain of evidence just keeps piling up real stacked against her.
Speaker 1: So this investigation is happening. Meanwhile, Elaine has dinner with Richard.
Speaker 1: This is Tricia's husband while Trish is out of town.
Speaker 1: Elane feeds him some love potion. Is what I think
Speaker 1: we're meant to understand happens. She's seducing him and he's like,
Speaker 1: who are you and she's like, I'm the love witch
Speaker 1: and we're like that's like, She's like, yeah, I'm the
Speaker 1: love witch. And then we see another witchy ceremony where
Speaker 1: Elaine tells Barbara that she broke things off with Richard
Speaker 1: and so she's now back in the dating pool, and
Speaker 1: she does like that classic thing where she's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: things didn't work out, Like every time someone definitely dies,
Speaker 1: she's like, I don't know what happened. I guess it's
Speaker 1: just didn't work out. I was like, wow, been there,
Speaker 1: That's why I identified worth about yeah. Um. So then
Speaker 1: Sergeant Griff continues to investigate. He speaks to a professor
Speaker 1: who specializes in the occult and then he speaks to
Speaker 1: the owner of this witchy apothecary type store and she
Speaker 1: tells Griff about Elaine. So he pays Elaine a visit
Speaker 1: to ask her some questions about what might be a homicide,
Speaker 1: and he's like, are you a witch? And she's like yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm like okay, she's honest. And then he's like, do
Speaker 1: you know Wayne Peters And she's like nah, and we're
Speaker 1: like just kidding, but then he gets all like wooed
Speaker 1: by her and she's like, we're meant to be together,
Speaker 1: and then they start dating and he takes her horseback riding,
Speaker 1: and while their horseback riding, they happened upon a Renaissance
Speaker 1: fair where they're kind of like ca noodling and they
Speaker 1: do this like long scene at the lone really long
Speaker 1: scene at the Renaissance fair, and it's like, once again,
Speaker 1: it's like, on my first watch of this movie, I
Speaker 1: wasn't aware that the director had made every single piece,
Speaker 1: And I'm like, I guess if I had made all
Speaker 1: of those Renaissance clothes, I would have made that scene
Speaker 1: last longer too. But that's also why I would hire
Speaker 1: a costume designers so I would be less precious about
Speaker 1: about it. That scene was really long. Yeah, she spent
Speaker 1: a year on the costumes for that scene. A loan
Speaker 1: I can't, but I mean, they were gorgeous. But I
Speaker 1: was like, wow, we sure are spending a lot of
Speaker 1: time here. But then in retrospects, second viewing, I was like, Okay,
Speaker 1: I get it, I understand. I will say that this
Speaker 1: scene did traumatize me a bit because a renaissance fair
Speaker 1: is where I had my sledge attack, and so it
Speaker 1: really brought back some some bad memory you know, if
Speaker 1: you know, you know? Um? Okay. Anyway, so they go
Speaker 1: to this ren fair and they have this kind of
Speaker 1: like fake marriage ceremony, and then we hear Griff's voice
Speaker 1: over about how love makes a man soft and how
Speaker 1: an ideal woman doesn't exist. But it also seems like
Speaker 1: he's falling in love with her. I do not think
Speaker 1: he is. She has like fed him any potion, but
Speaker 1: he is like smitten with her, to the point where
Speaker 1: he refuses to investigate Wayne's death any further because he
Speaker 1: no longer suspects Elaine of killing him. She's to his
Speaker 1: girlfriend to be guilty. Then Trish discus over's her husband
Speaker 1: Richard dead, having died by suicide. Then we cut to
Speaker 1: a scene where Trish and Elaine have tea again and
Speaker 1: Trish talks about how she blames herself for Richard's death
Speaker 1: and how she suspects Richard was having an affair she
Speaker 1: doesn't know with whom, but she wants to kill whoever
Speaker 1: it was with. Then Trish discovers that it was Elaine
Speaker 1: who had the affair with Richard, and Elaine comes home,
Speaker 1: Trish is there, and then they fight at she's there
Speaker 1: wearing a we like looking like late, I feel like that.
Speaker 1: We gotta mention that. Yeah, I really did enjoy that part.
Speaker 1: It's like, what is this like single white female, like
Speaker 1: little road we're pulling up on. But I was like,
Speaker 1: all right, let's see where this goes. And it kind
Speaker 1: of didn't go anywhere, but whatever. It's fun to watch
Speaker 1: because then Trish there's like a dagger involved, but no
Speaker 1: one gets injured. And then Trish just like runs out
Speaker 1: and then goes to the police um and like gives
Speaker 1: Griff even more evidence. And then Elaine and Griff meet
Speaker 1: up at the Burlesque Club and he's like, hey, Elaine,
Speaker 1: the DNA testing came back and it's your DNA and
Speaker 1: she's like, so, She's like, I didn't kill anyone. They
Speaker 1: died because they were so in love with me and
Speaker 1: he's like, um, you're still under arrest. And then all
Speaker 1: the patrons at this burlesque club attack her and they're like,
Speaker 1: burn the witch, Burn the witch. Griff helps her get away.
Speaker 1: Then they're back at her place and she's like, Griff,
Speaker 1: everything's going to be okay. I love you so much,
Speaker 1: and then she tries to give him a love potion
Speaker 1: but he tosses it aside, so she stabs him to
Speaker 1: death in the chest. Lived happily ever after. The one
Speaker 1: thing that killed and I were like, oh, she killed
Speaker 1: the cop at the end, because there was so much
Speaker 1: of this and I'm like, oh, this is playing out
Speaker 1: like Lana del Ray's life. I hate it. But she
Speaker 1: does kill the cops. She does kill the cop a
Speaker 1: dand but then she has a fantasy about them getting
Speaker 1: married and riding away together on a white horse, just
Speaker 1: the way she described her like fantasy fairy tale. So
Speaker 1: that is the story. Let's take a quick break and
Speaker 1: then we'll come right back to discuss and we're back
Speaker 1: so okay. So that where I wanted to start with with.
Speaker 1: I want to kind of like get the bigger criticisms
Speaker 1: out of the way so we can jump into like
Speaker 1: movie discussion. So one of the things that really jumped
Speaker 1: out to me about just like the premise of this
Speaker 1: movie without even getting into what is really actually happening,
Speaker 1: is getting into just like white Girl, which culture which
Speaker 1: I feel like has always been a thing, but has
Speaker 1: been kind of steadily on the rise in the past,
Speaker 1: I want to say, like five to ten years, and
Speaker 1: if it feels like something that this movie is very
Speaker 1: much interacting with, and I feel like it's not. I know, Caitling,
Speaker 1: you you have some stuff on this as well. It's
Speaker 1: it's not something that you know, it's really within our
Speaker 1: purview to completely unpack in the space of an episode,
Speaker 1: But I just wanted to sort of acknowledge it because
Speaker 1: it is so I mean, if I feel like it.
Speaker 1: It follows so many kind of frustrating and unfortunate media
Speaker 1: trends that are essentially white women co opting black and
Speaker 1: indigenous culture in order to center themselves in narratives or
Speaker 1: cultural practices or or whatever it is. Um and it
Speaker 1: feels like, especially in particular, like the idea of Witchcraft,
Speaker 1: most of the famous quote unquote like which is in
Speaker 1: popular media are white ladies. And I wanted to shout
Speaker 1: out one essay in particular that I thought was like
Speaker 1: just so incredibly good. Well, we'll link it in the description. Um.
Speaker 1: It's by a Navajo writer named Leu Cornum in The
Speaker 1: New Inquiry, and it's called White Magic. That interestingly, uh,
Speaker 1: their thesis kind of centers around another another movie we've
Speaker 1: covered on this show, and so it's not in conversation
Speaker 1: with The Love Which directly because I do think that
Speaker 1: The Love Which is so campy that it kind of
Speaker 1: manages to skirt some of this conversation, whereas the Vivich
Speaker 1: is taking itself very seriously, so that the criticism feels like, Okay,
Speaker 1: we really have to tell what is the name of
Speaker 1: that director again? Who's like I went to the library?
Speaker 1: Is it Robert Egger's Is that? Am I getting that right? Yeah?
Speaker 1: I always want to say Robert Evans, but like that's
Speaker 1: just my friend, Like that's not That's not who made
Speaker 1: the Vivic at all. Yeah, Robert Eggers. And then he
Speaker 1: has that iconic quote that was like I went to
Speaker 1: the library, like and that was how he learned about
Speaker 1: women and indigenous culture, and it's like, why did you
Speaker 1: make this movie? Anyways? Luke Horner wrote this really good
Speaker 1: essay that discusses the Vivich and also discusses other really
Speaker 1: popular movies that have come out that center around white
Speaker 1: women as witches. So think, I mean a lot of
Speaker 1: movies we've covered on the show, Think the Craft, Think
Speaker 1: Practical Magic, like Pincus, Pocus, pocus Pocus. Yes, like these
Speaker 1: are all name checked in in the essay, But essentially
Speaker 1: I mean, I I would really recommend that listeners read.
Speaker 1: It's kind of a long essay, so you should also
Speaker 1: read it for yourself. I want to quote a little
Speaker 1: bit of it. But they're making the argum meant that
Speaker 1: while it's not untrue that white women have practiced witchcraft
Speaker 1: for a long time, no one saying that that isn't true. However,
Speaker 1: it is often at the expense of, or the erasure
Speaker 1: of black or Indigenous people. So I'm going to quote
Speaker 1: a little bit here. They talk a lot about the
Speaker 1: Salem witch trials, which is again a true event that
Speaker 1: happened that specifically centers white women in the historical retelling
Speaker 1: of it, even though there are many black and Indigenous
Speaker 1: women who are affected by witch trials. So okay, Luke
Speaker 1: Horton says, quote actual witch hunts of the past, such
Speaker 1: as the Salem witch trials, followed from a fear of
Speaker 1: Indigenous women and their role in forms of governance alternative
Speaker 1: to those of the Foundling country, along with genocidal tactics
Speaker 1: of sexual violence. Early settlers also worked through their fear
Speaker 1: by projecting it elsewhere, the hyper visibility and necessarily spectacular
Speaker 1: aspects of which trials a white women were an arena
Speaker 1: to handle physically and politically the threat of indigenous societies
Speaker 1: where women were in power. Beyond the events at Salem
Speaker 1: historical spectacle as formative to America as the Thanksgiving myth,
Speaker 1: unruly women, be they Native, black, or white, have continuously
Speaker 1: been post as savage and placed outside the enclosed boundaries
Speaker 1: of civilization and nation, and a move towards symbolic enclosure.
Speaker 1: Both witches and Indigenous women have been reduced to accessorized
Speaker 1: signifiers hawked by urban outfitters or Forever twenty one available
Speaker 1: for the care free to adorn themselves with at Coachella
Speaker 1: and express their pagan predilections for living ever so briefly
Speaker 1: outside time unquote. So essentially, the argument that Luke Arnum
Speaker 1: is very effectively making here is that it's just yet
Speaker 1: another example of centering white women where the issue is
Speaker 1: much much larger, and it is in some ways, uh
Speaker 1: costume that white women can very easily take on and
Speaker 1: off in almost like a cosplay kind of way, where
Speaker 1: when black and Indigenous women engage with um with, I
Speaker 1: guess it's like I don't even have the correct language
Speaker 1: for it, but witchy shit, Um, it is not as
Speaker 1: easily separated taken on taken off, and the consequences are
Speaker 1: are more severe and pervasive. So I just wanted to
Speaker 1: touch on that because we haven't talked about that in
Speaker 1: a while, and I think we covered we covered the
Speaker 1: craft so long ago that I feel like we we
Speaker 1: didn't even really fully understand that stuff at the time. Totally. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that was kind of before we were getting we were
Speaker 1: doing like deep dives into context and things like that.
Speaker 1: So um, but look at us having grown our old geniuses. Um, yes,
Speaker 1: thank you for for doing the research and for sharing that,
Speaker 1: and yes we'll definitely link that article. Um, some of
Speaker 1: the context that I did but didn't get very far
Speaker 1: into because it's a book and we famously famously don't right.
Speaker 1: I tried my very hardest. Wow, in Unison, we killed
Speaker 1: it Um. The book is entitled, which is Sluts Feminists
Speaker 1: by Kristen J. Sol it Is, And again I did
Speaker 1: not get very far into it, um, but I would
Speaker 1: recommend it nonetheless because it seems like it's very cool
Speaker 1: and well researched and has a thesis statement that very
Speaker 1: closely aligns with the ideology that we promote on this show.
Speaker 1: But it's basically about how the sexuality and sexual liberation
Speaker 1: of women and fems has historically been feared and demonized,
Speaker 1: and that fear has been used to justify condemning women,
Speaker 1: accusing them of witchcraft and like accusing them of being
Speaker 1: demonically possessed, burning them at the stake, all that stuff
Speaker 1: from history, and then how that fear and condemnation has
Speaker 1: never gone away but has evolved over the years into
Speaker 1: what we recognize today as modern day slut shaming, UM
Speaker 1: shaming of sex works, shaming of queerness. So that's what
Speaker 1: the book is about. UM. I plan to read it
Speaker 1: more one day when I have time to read a book,
Speaker 1: one day when we're back to the book reading. But
Speaker 1: but I feel like this movie is trying to say
Speaker 1: a lot of what this book says. I would argue
Speaker 1: more effectively. And this book is also way more inclusive
Speaker 1: and its approach to that because we'll talk about how
Speaker 1: this movie is very white, very heteronormative, very gender normative,
Speaker 1: very body normative, like the list was on, and maybe
Speaker 1: that'll bring us into the discussion about like what this
Speaker 1: movie is trying to say. Um, but I feel like
Speaker 1: hitting the trying really hard. But yeah, I recommend the
Speaker 1: book for anyone who wants to check it out. I'll
Speaker 1: check it out. Yeah, okay, so yeah, let's let's get
Speaker 1: into the Let's get into the movie. Um, so, this
Speaker 1: movie is definitely talking a lot about patriarchy, is talking
Speaker 1: I feel like it. It presents a lot of I
Speaker 1: don't know some of the moments, and it is absolutely
Speaker 1: we'll get into how gender and heteronormative the approach is,
Speaker 1: and and how the characters are. There were some conversations
Speaker 1: so that I enjoyed watching characters go back and forth
Speaker 1: about like I thought, all of the conversations, even though
Speaker 1: they're not, you know, test friendly, but the conversation between
Speaker 1: Elaine and Trish on both sides of the movie, I
Speaker 1: thought were really interesting and just presenting different approaches to
Speaker 1: dealing with patriarchy. Sure, yeah, I mean for me, I
Speaker 1: mean I think there's an argument to be made that
Speaker 1: this movie is about a woman who reclaims her power
Speaker 1: and becomes sexually liberated by way of being a witch
Speaker 1: and by way of murdering men, which is funny, but
Speaker 1: it is very funny. I don't hate that. Now it's
Speaker 1: fun again. For me, it's just like the execution, it
Speaker 1: just didn't feel very effective to me. I feel like
Speaker 1: the movie is setting her up for a character arc
Speaker 1: that never happens. What did you think was going to happen?
Speaker 1: I'm so curious. I thought that she was going to
Speaker 1: start out. So she starts out being very much like
Speaker 1: So the conversation she has with Trish at the very beginning,
Speaker 1: I like transcribed it because I was just like, what
Speaker 1: is happening here? Okay? So she's you know, she's all like,
Speaker 1: you know, we may be grown women, but underneath, we're
Speaker 1: dreaming about being carried off by a prince on a
Speaker 1: white horse. And then she's like, men are like children.
Speaker 1: They're very easy to please as long as we give
Speaker 1: them what they want. And what men want is a
Speaker 1: pretty woman to love and to take care of them
Speaker 1: and to make them feel like a man and to
Speaker 1: give them total freedom and whatever they want to do
Speaker 1: or be. And then Trish is like, well, what about
Speaker 1: what we want? What like, how are we going to
Speaker 1: be equals if we keep catering to men and like
Speaker 1: all of their needs. And I'm like, yeah, good point, Trish.
Speaker 1: And Elene is like, if you want love, you have
Speaker 1: to give love. Giving men sex is a way of
Speaker 1: unlocking their love potential. And then this is when Trish
Speaker 1: is like, sounds like you've been brainwashed. Elene, sounds like
Speaker 1: a bad self help book at many points, like and
Speaker 1: nineteen eighties self help Look for Women written by a
Speaker 1: man exactly, That's exactly. And then this is when Trish
Speaker 1: is like, it sounds like you've been brainwashed by the patriarchy.
Speaker 1: Your whole self worth is wrapped up and pleasing a man.
Speaker 1: So at the beginning, like at the beginning here, Elaine
Speaker 1: has these very regressive ideas about like catering to men's needs,
Speaker 1: and then Trish calls her out on it, and so
Speaker 1: that's why I'm like, oh, there's this, you know, maybe
Speaker 1: Trish is going to kind of help her see her
Speaker 1: worth outside of how men value her and all this stuff.
Speaker 1: And you could argue that that maybe happens again because
Speaker 1: she just keeps killing men, but to me, it felt
Speaker 1: like the voice of reason character Trish leaves the story
Speaker 1: and it is absent from it for most of the time,
Speaker 1: and then when she does show up again towards the end,
Speaker 1: she's like, oh, maybe you were right, Elaine, maybe you
Speaker 1: should give a man his fantasy and cater to his
Speaker 1: desires and all that stuff, and I'm just like, huh.
Speaker 1: I felt like, okay, So, like I I'm going through
Speaker 1: an extremely heterosexual breakup right now. So I was sort
Speaker 1: of just like, I mean, I don't mean to laugh
Speaker 1: at that, but the way you framed it was sorry,
Speaker 1: I framed it like it was an extremely goofy movie. Um,
Speaker 1: and that's on me. I'm realizing why it is funny.
Speaker 1: But I don't know, like there were I agree with
Speaker 1: these structurally that where Trish lands isn't satisfying. And maybe
Speaker 1: I'm giving the director too much credit here, but I
Speaker 1: felt like Anna Biller is such an outspoken feminist that
Speaker 1: she has to be aware of what she's doing there.
Speaker 1: And it's kind of a matter for us of whether
Speaker 1: we agree with that approach or not, because it's like
Speaker 1: because because I feel like, if you know, if this
Speaker 1: was actually a movie from the seventies that would have
Speaker 1: most likely been written and directed by men, if a
Speaker 1: conversation like that happened, there's no four D chest going on,
Speaker 1: Like it's not like like that's just literally what they think.
Speaker 1: But Annabeller's body of work very much indicates that that's
Speaker 1: not what she thinks, and interviews that she did around
Speaker 1: this movie indicate that it's not what she thinks. And
Speaker 1: so where I was sometimes hitting a wall, but like
Speaker 1: where where I kind of landed on was like, I
Speaker 1: don't know, I'm curious what you think about this as well, Allissa,
Speaker 1: of clearly there's a lot of dissonance in a Lane's
Speaker 1: mind about men, because I feel like she's almost trying
Speaker 1: to present this fantasy so hard, and it's not like
Speaker 1: she's really presented to us as like an aspirational character,
Speaker 1: like she's like whatever, but she's trying to present this
Speaker 1: fantasy so hard in a way that is clearly so
Speaker 1: psychologically destructive to her that she like kills the people
Speaker 1: that she's working so hard to bring this fantasy to.
Speaker 1: And on Trish is and I felt like Trish like
Speaker 1: I was also bummed out that Trish ended by being like,
Speaker 1: maybe I was wrong, Maybe I shouldn't have like had
Speaker 1: thoughts about like my own agency and independence, And it
Speaker 1: felt to be like Annabella kind of left it in
Speaker 1: this place where it was like fighting the patriarchy is
Speaker 1: really hard and doesn't always like work, which is so
Speaker 1: depressing and like not really the message I'm seeking in
Speaker 1: a movie. This is why I think it's so clever. Okay, yeah,
Speaker 1: please please, you didn't hit it hit us because Annabella
Speaker 1: is a feminist and she is aware of what she's doing,
Speaker 1: and I think the conversations between Elaine and Trish clearly
Speaker 1: show that, because like when Elaine is talking cuckoo, then
Speaker 1: Trish is literally yeah the voice of reason, being like, um, hello,
Speaker 1: here's reality, what are you talking about? But Elaine is
Speaker 1: such a surreal and otherworldly character, and I put her
Speaker 1: solidly in the good for her universe, like she wanted
Speaker 1: love and she took it and she whatever, but I did.
Speaker 1: I did also want to mention that Annabular was reading
Speaker 1: a bunch of self help books and that was what
Speaker 1: inspired her to write the movie, and the character was
Speaker 1: like echoing those and that's what I think is so
Speaker 1: cool is that it like the look of it being
Speaker 1: so solidly sixties and it feeling like a sixties movie,
Speaker 1: Like you could look at a frame of it or
Speaker 1: a scene of it and think it's from the sixties.
Speaker 1: And I think that's what the juxtaposition of all of
Speaker 1: these things playing together, Like I'm not explaining it right,
Speaker 1: but no, I feel like it it adds up to
Speaker 1: something that is very funny and very clever to me,
Speaker 1: because I think she's pointing out so many things while
Speaker 1: staying so true to the campy sixty horror genre and
Speaker 1: saying a new feminist message. Like I see Trish's like, well,
Speaker 1: I guess feminism didn't work out for me after all.
Speaker 1: And she's kind of doing this robotics. It's like this
Speaker 1: robotic like I don't know what to do, and she's
Speaker 1: just kind of like it's like she's standing at a
Speaker 1: wall and she's like walking into it and like she's
Speaker 1: malfunctioning almost. It's like, well, I don't know what to
Speaker 1: do now. It's like the Stepford Wives moment where she's like,
Speaker 1: come have some coffee. Comes Well, It's like when she's
Speaker 1: supposed to she's supposed to be the good wife. She's
Speaker 1: supposed to be the one who has emotions and and
Speaker 1: earned her husband or whatever, or like, has her own
Speaker 1: agency and feelings and blah blah blah. But then as
Speaker 1: soon as she's without her husband, she's like, what what
Speaker 1: do I like? That makes sense to me? I found okay.
Speaker 1: So Annabeller has an interview about this movie posted on
Speaker 1: her website that I found very clarifying in I don't know.
Speaker 1: I had a lot of questions, especially when I was
Speaker 1: leaving my first viewing of this movie, which I went
Speaker 1: into completely cold, and then was like, hold on, who
Speaker 1: is who made this movie? Because it makes it makes
Speaker 1: all the difference. And speaking to your point, Elissa, yeah,
Speaker 1: I I I found her perspectively helpful in wrapping my
Speaker 1: head around like what she's trying to do. So the question,
Speaker 1: I also am not clear on who's asking these questions.
Speaker 1: It might be her asking frequently asked questions to herself unclear,
Speaker 1: but on her. So the question is which character should
Speaker 1: be identify with Elaine or Trish? Annabella replies, quote, our
Speaker 1: identification flips depending on the scene. I'm trying to talk
Speaker 1: about how difficult it is to be a woman in
Speaker 1: today's culture and how all of the options for creating
Speaker 1: an identity are problematic. For instance, Trish is comfortable with
Speaker 1: herself and happily married, and Elaine feels she has to
Speaker 1: tie herself in knots to please a man. So Trish
Speaker 1: is the quote unquote normal one and Elaine is desperate
Speaker 1: and has self esteem issues. But in the end, Elaine
Speaker 1: uses her fantasy doll tactics to steal Trish's husband and
Speaker 1: destroy him, and Trish is left widowed and broken. When
Speaker 1: we see what Elaine has done to Trish, we hate
Speaker 1: Elaine and identify with Trish. But at other moments, as
Speaker 1: when Elaine is flashing back to her abuse by men,
Speaker 1: we identify with Elaine. I tried to create a Junkian
Speaker 1: animus for Elaine. First of all, Okay, you've read a book. Okay,
Speaker 1: she went to the library. Who are you, Robert Eggers?
Speaker 1: Robert Eggers went to the library. If we never made
Speaker 1: that t shirt? Um, I tried to I think it's
Speaker 1: I've never said Carl. Is it Carl Young? I think
Speaker 1: Young the psychologist? Right? Yes, Okay, I tried to create
Speaker 1: I'm continuing her. I tried to create a young Gian
Speaker 1: animus for Elane, a group of judging, manipulating male characters
Speaker 1: that she hears in her head or paints in her paintings.
Speaker 1: It's in her attempts to escape this animus that she
Speaker 1: becomes dangerous to herself and to others. It will be
Speaker 1: interesting to see how many women will relate to this unquote.
Speaker 1: So I get it, Like, that's that totally makes sense
Speaker 1: to me of of like different perspectives on trying to
Speaker 1: navigate patriarchy, navigate abusive relationships, because that is a lot
Speaker 1: of what Elaine is actively processing throughout the movie is
Speaker 1: like trauma inflicted on her by men from her past.
Speaker 1: Whether it's I think that you like hear the echoes
Speaker 1: of her father at one point, you hear certainly a
Speaker 1: lot from her ex husband. She talks about it with
Speaker 1: other characters. It's clearly like a big defining trauma that
Speaker 1: like informs all of her behavior. So yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: I I'm having this thought in real time, so bear
Speaker 1: with me here. But I feel like something this movie,
Speaker 1: especially upon hearing that quote from Anna Biller, I feel
Speaker 1: like part of what this movie is attempting to comment
Speaker 1: on is something that we've kind of grappled with on
Speaker 1: the podcast and even in my own personal life, this
Speaker 1: navigating and reconciling as as a hetero woman. How how
Speaker 1: do I reconcile being a militant feminist while also wanting
Speaker 1: the hetero romantic companionship of a man. This is something
Speaker 1: I have a conversation with myself about daily, and I
Speaker 1: wonder if, like, that's part of what this movie is
Speaker 1: dealing with, because we have Elaine, who is very emblematic
Speaker 1: of this like old school sixties era and earlier ideology
Speaker 1: of like, well, a woman exists to please a man,
Speaker 1: to cater to his every whim, to be sexual, not
Speaker 1: because you want to be sexual or explore yourself sexually,
Speaker 1: but to sexually please a man. You know, all all
Speaker 1: of this stuff that for all of history had been
Speaker 1: what was expected of women by the patriarchy. And then
Speaker 1: you have a character like Trish who is saying, like, no,
Speaker 1: this is sixteen or the sixties. We don't know what
Speaker 1: the decade it is that we're in, but we don't
Speaker 1: think like that anymore. You're you've been brainwashed, like life
Speaker 1: isn't a fairy tale, Husbands aren't Prince Charming's like get
Speaker 1: with the program, So you have these like conflicting things
Speaker 1: that and again I don't know what even point I'm
Speaker 1: trying to arrive at here, but no, I I totally Again,
Speaker 1: this is like watching this movie and at a very
Speaker 1: interesting time for me personally. It's like, yeah, I think
Speaker 1: that that's something that a lot of tragically straight with
Speaker 1: it are grappling with, you know, is is And and
Speaker 1: also like I think that that exists, you know, across
Speaker 1: the spectrum of sexuality of like, well, I want to
Speaker 1: be empowered, I want to be independent as a person.
Speaker 1: Why am I still feeling like I want a partner?
Speaker 1: But it's like that's part of and not everybody feels
Speaker 1: that way. I'm not trying to over generalize, but but
Speaker 1: it's like that's such a part of being human. And
Speaker 1: the more I watched it, the more I engaged with
Speaker 1: Anna Biller's commentary on like what she was trying to do.
Speaker 1: I thought it was like kind of a really brave
Speaker 1: thing to do in some ways. Again, it's like the
Speaker 1: whole it's a very white cast, and Anna Biller is
Speaker 1: is um half Japanese, half white, but the cast itself
Speaker 1: is extremely white. I feel like this is you could
Speaker 1: argue that it because it's interacting with sixties and seventies
Speaker 1: B movies, it's extremely heteronormative and binary as it pertains
Speaker 1: to gender. But I also feel like, like what you're describing,
Speaker 1: it feels like almost like a feminist elephant in the
Speaker 1: room for some people, where there's so many beliefs that
Speaker 1: I hold very firmly that I cannot apply to my
Speaker 1: own life to save my own life, Like you know,
Speaker 1: I feel like, and this is maybe a reach, but
Speaker 1: like I feel that way about like a lot of
Speaker 1: body issues and a lot of like I'm an extremely
Speaker 1: body positive person. I feel like I actively recognize how
Speaker 1: our bodies are policed and mistreated and we're told to
Speaker 1: look a certain way and I'm still anorexic. Like it's
Speaker 1: so like it it is like such a personal journey
Speaker 1: on you know, holding your beliefs and holding them very authentically,
Speaker 1: which it seems like Annabillard does as well. And also
Speaker 1: I don't know acknowledging through a piece of art that
Speaker 1: it's like but yeah, when it's you like fucking good luck,
Speaker 1: you know, it's yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't know, I
Speaker 1: feel the same way. I find so in that way,
Speaker 1: maybe this movie is far more relatable than I'm giving
Speaker 1: it credit for. For me, Okay, here's what I think
Speaker 1: it is. Again. I see what the movie its intentions are,
Speaker 1: and I honestly think it's because I think it has
Speaker 1: a screenplay that I do not think is well written.
Speaker 1: The execution just like kind of falls flat for me.
Speaker 1: I think it's very largely like a screenwriting thing, an
Speaker 1: editing thing. The movie is like a half hour longer
Speaker 1: than it needs to be. And I feel bad dumping
Speaker 1: on these things because I know Annabeller did all of it,
Speaker 1: but that will bring me to my monologue that I'll
Speaker 1: get to eventually. But so I think it's just kind
Speaker 1: of like a personal preference thing where the execution falls
Speaker 1: flat because the story is just sort of like meandery
Speaker 1: and at times unfocused, and I think something's happen that
Speaker 1: are probably like symbolic or allegorical of something, but it's
Speaker 1: not totally clear to me what or things aren't totally
Speaker 1: tracking and and I don't know if it's because it
Speaker 1: was intentionally Okay, this is gonna be so mean, but
Speaker 1: I have to say it was it intentionally poorly written
Speaker 1: because it's paying homage to the like these pulpy b
Speaker 1: movies of that era that are also poorly written. I
Speaker 1: sort of thought, so, I don't know, what did you think?
Speaker 1: Was that? In my opinion, yes, in my opinion, yes,
Speaker 1: if it's is. If it is not, then in my opinion,
Speaker 1: she like if you didn't do it on purpose, she
Speaker 1: was geniusly riding the line of and just like stumbling
Speaker 1: into the perfect like wrongness. But also so that's why
Speaker 1: I think she had to have done it on purpose.
Speaker 1: Like I think it's so stilted in the way that
Speaker 1: it is written, and like, yet other lines are so
Speaker 1: clever and like the stuff about the tampon, like must
Speaker 1: men have never seen a used tampon? And then later
Speaker 1: when he's like and I found an old hot dog
Speaker 1: under the bed, it was like, so I didn't get that.
Speaker 1: Tell my second viewing stuff like that is so clever
Speaker 1: that I think that the moments where it is like,
Speaker 1: I think it is just a perfect homage to sixties
Speaker 1: movies and like using all of the parts that are
Speaker 1: like using them as paper dolls, almost like sixties movies,
Speaker 1: being like, Okay, these are the these are the pieces
Speaker 1: that I have, so I'm going to use them to
Speaker 1: tell more messed up, slightly different story, but it's these
Speaker 1: are the what I have, and people recognize the roles
Speaker 1: that these people are in, so I'll I will use them. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I suppose I land on. Okay, Well, a poorly written
Speaker 1: movie and kind of modeled story does then not lend
Speaker 1: itself very well to a clear message for me? Sure,
Speaker 1: clearly other because I read so many reviews that are like,
Speaker 1: this movie is genius, it's brilliant, it's amazing people, we're
Speaker 1: foaming for this movie. But to be fair, a lot
Speaker 1: of the reviews I read, we're hailing the visual style
Speaker 1: and all of the artistry that went into the movie,
Speaker 1: but saying like you should just ignore the plot. The
Speaker 1: plot you just don't even notice it, just like kind
Speaker 1: of don't even watch the plot, but just be sure
Speaker 1: to really look at the movie though, But it looks amazing.
Speaker 1: So so for me coming from like a very like
Speaker 1: story centric screenwriting background, I would obviously never mentioned my
Speaker 1: master's degree in screenwriting from Boston University, but I just
Speaker 1: feel like there could be a much clearer, more like
Speaker 1: sex positive more. Here's why I think she did this way.
Speaker 1: I think that the visual style of it is so
Speaker 1: effective and it just burns into your brain. That's and
Speaker 1: you can't not look at it. And I think the
Speaker 1: poster is just so eye catching and like it looks
Speaker 1: like the six season in such a way that you're like,
Speaker 1: I have to see if this was real, Like I
Speaker 1: have to know if this was from that time, And
Speaker 1: the way it glues you into it that way, I
Speaker 1: think is part of the app of it. And then
Speaker 1: it also like is using this yeah, meandering type of stuff,
Speaker 1: but in like these dreamy styles, because I think that
Speaker 1: it's supposed to be when you realized later like oh,
Speaker 1: that was the movie that was not really from the
Speaker 1: sixth season, like these parts of it stick out to you.
Speaker 1: So I think it's supposed to like parts of it
Speaker 1: stick with you later where you're like, oh, an old
Speaker 1: hot dog he he meant he found a tampon under that.
Speaker 1: I think that's why it is affected. I don't think
Speaker 1: it's supposed to be Like if it were more straightforward
Speaker 1: about the message, I don't think it would be as
Speaker 1: fun or interesting or catchy. That it uses that style
Speaker 1: to its advantage, and like it has it does a
Speaker 1: bunch of silly and possibly meandering stuff in terms of
Speaker 1: like other films, but I don't think that it would
Speaker 1: work any other way. And I think the campiness of
Speaker 1: it is what makes it so weird and special and
Speaker 1: why that the real cool feminist messages of it are
Speaker 1: so special, because it's just like they're dropped in there
Speaker 1: among this, like glittering just play, like, oh, I didn't
Speaker 1: expect to find this in here, but this is fun. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I suppose if it was more straight forward, it would
Speaker 1: feel too preachy and just to like, we get it.
Speaker 1: Women are people who deserve to be sexually liberated and
Speaker 1: like all that stuff. So yeah, yeah, because because I I,
Speaker 1: I don't know, Like I I run very hot and
Speaker 1: cold on art movies, where like if I like it,
Speaker 1: I love it, and if I'm like not vibing with
Speaker 1: the style or the script, I'm like, this is the
Speaker 1: most annoying ship I've ever seen in my entire let
Speaker 1: Like that's whatever the nature of the genre. But yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't know, it does feel like it comes down
Speaker 1: to personal preference. I like that. She I don't know.
Speaker 1: I just like I can't in good faith dump on
Speaker 1: this movie too much because it's just so much work
Speaker 1: and so many like risks, and I feel like making
Speaker 1: very simple feminist points in movies is such a thing
Speaker 1: to do right now, Um, where it's very like and
Speaker 1: that's how I am and I'm and girls actually rule,
Speaker 1: and like as time goes on, there are and this
Speaker 1: this kind of brings me back to the essay from
Speaker 1: Luke Cornum I was talking about earlier, where it's like
Speaker 1: straightforward movies about which is that come out now are
Speaker 1: operating on like a higher level in terms of social
Speaker 1: commentary than they were twenty years ago, because if you
Speaker 1: think about The Craft, the Craft starts as a story
Speaker 1: of his sisterhood that devolves into teen girls blackmailing each
Speaker 1: other over various guys, like it ultimately becomes and you
Speaker 1: could say the same thing for Practical Magic, where it's
Speaker 1: like it's about sisterhood but also is inherently tied to
Speaker 1: heterosexual relationships and doesn't really end up making a point
Speaker 1: about anything in spite of marketing itself like it is
Speaker 1: saying something which it kind of isn't, even though it's
Speaker 1: still fun to watch, right whatever. But I I am
Speaker 1: finding myself more drawn to like unusual ways of making
Speaker 1: points like that because there's just so many movies right
Speaker 1: now that's like women are good, and it's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I know, it's that I just find that exhausting it
Speaker 1: to like be bashed over the head with it. And
Speaker 1: I think the scene that really solidifies is that the
Speaker 1: last scene of the movie really solidifies that it is
Speaker 1: a self aware of parody. To me, is like when
Speaker 1: they go back to the Renaissance fair the mock wedding scene,
Speaker 1: and all of the sound, all of the music is gone,
Speaker 1: but you hear all of everyone's like start strustling and
Speaker 1: like people breathing weirdly. So you hear like all of
Speaker 1: these just like gross unsettling noises that are like okay,
Speaker 1: there's people here, but there's all of the music is gone,
Speaker 1: and like it's just very unsettling and weird. And so
Speaker 1: that to me says like she is aware that, like
Speaker 1: this is a really ridiculous fantasy and like obviously you
Speaker 1: should not be like I'm going to be like when
Speaker 1: I But also it's like that girl literally yeah, Mrs
Speaker 1: Mrs girl Boss, Mrs Elizabeth Holmes, the Witch, but like yeah,
Speaker 1: but also it's like I don't know, there were parts
Speaker 1: of it I didn't like. There are parts of it
Speaker 1: I did like but I do feel like now having
Speaker 1: watched it a couple of times and like reading where
Speaker 1: the director's coming from, I do feel and just like
Speaker 1: through this conversation, I'm like, Okay, I understand what she's
Speaker 1: trying to say. And then it's like, you know, no
Speaker 1: no harm, no foul as far as I'm concerned, Let's
Speaker 1: take another quick break and then we'll come back for
Speaker 1: a more discussion and we're back. I agree with listen.
Speaker 1: Like anything that bashes you over the head or has
Speaker 1: some weird I just I'm always reminded of that scene
Speaker 1: in the last Avengers movie. We're like ten women that
Speaker 1: they've managed to like weave into the stories throughout don't
Speaker 1: know each other. The girls are here exactly like all
Speaker 1: the women in the m C. You congregate on the
Speaker 1: battlefield and start to walk alongside each other, and they're
Speaker 1: like why feminism, Donna Exactly. That ship annoys me so
Speaker 1: much because it's just so like performative, and it's like
Speaker 1: whatever male director's idea of what they think women want
Speaker 1: to see or that they think is empowering for women
Speaker 1: or whatever, and like so anything that's like very bash
Speaker 1: you over the head like that is similarly not effective.
Speaker 1: I guess. I just think there were some things that
Speaker 1: I was like, how what what is the takeaway here?
Speaker 1: What am I supposed to be? Or how does the
Speaker 1: movie feel about this? Or how does the you know,
Speaker 1: how does the filmmaker feel about this? And one of
Speaker 1: those things was um and again, maybe this is more
Speaker 1: clearly effective comedy and parody to other people, but I
Speaker 1: was just kind of missing it. Where so the men
Speaker 1: would typically take the love potion fall painfully in love
Speaker 1: to the point where they were feeling in such a
Speaker 1: way that some of the other characters were like, men
Speaker 1: become soft when they fall in love, and it's it's
Speaker 1: really gross for a man to have feelings. And when
Speaker 1: Elaine calls him a pussy and she's like, why are
Speaker 1: you pussy, he's crying just like a little girl. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: A lot of like equating um, men being vulnerable and
Speaker 1: men expressing emotion to like being gross and stuff. And
Speaker 1: I feel like, I guess because the characters who are
Speaker 1: who don't find that appealing, our characters like Elaine, who
Speaker 1: we are not meant to identify with, I felt guess
Speaker 1: my take on that was that again, I do think
Speaker 1: that Annabella knows that she's doing there where it's I
Speaker 1: I feel like that would only happened to male characters
Speaker 1: after they had already previously expressed that they found the
Speaker 1: same quality when it appears in women to be embarrassing
Speaker 1: and gross and annoying, where it's like Wayne's character before
Speaker 1: he does begin like painfully emoting, which is like super
Speaker 1: campy and like whatever, it's it's a bit much, but
Speaker 1: he like they have He and um Elaine have this
Speaker 1: discussion where he's like, oh, yeah, you know, like when
Speaker 1: women expect things of me or like basically like I
Speaker 1: don't know. I feel like everyone who is the like
Speaker 1: misfortune of having sex with kind of an asshole guy
Speaker 1: has had a version of this conversation where it's like,
Speaker 1: you know, like I don't understand why I have to
Speaker 1: be like nice to people that I have sex with,
Speaker 1: Like it's it's so like corny and over the top.
Speaker 1: But it's that I thought, because that conversation happened when
Speaker 1: he was expressing the same overblown, clearly overstated behavior that
Speaker 1: he was describing in an earlier scene that I didn't like.
Speaker 1: It didn't come off to me as like men shouldn't
Speaker 1: emote mentioned expect because some movies definitely firmly come down
Speaker 1: on that side. But I think that it was almost
Speaker 1: like a punishment for finding any woman he'd ever been
Speaker 1: with two expect And it's also like he describes it
Speaker 1: as like neediness, but what he's describing is basic respect.
Speaker 1: Like I thought that then was really like the way
Speaker 1: that that dialogue was written, as he's making it seem like,
Speaker 1: can you believe someone would expect this of me when
Speaker 1: it's kind of basic courtesy? So yeah, that didn't That
Speaker 1: didn't bump me too much. And I like that she's
Speaker 1: I like that she's sarcastically babing him in that scene.
Speaker 1: She's like and then he goes in a way yes,
Speaker 1: and you're like, oh god, I feel like they were.
Speaker 1: She was showing like they were. They were flipping the
Speaker 1: gender roles basically, and that like Wayne was becoming the
Speaker 1: way women are like stereotypically portrayed ass like super emotional
Speaker 1: and like needing whatever. And like when he does all
Speaker 1: of that, then l And is like, oh, no, you
Speaker 1: I didn't want you to be like that. This is
Speaker 1: not what I wanted from love, But now you're doing
Speaker 1: what women do and I'm not. This is not what
Speaker 1: I asked for? Yeah, which does I mean? I think,
Speaker 1: what what that flipped? Because it is like a clear
Speaker 1: like the way we've been classically conditioned to view binary
Speaker 1: gender roles flipped and then used to like weaponize against
Speaker 1: CIS men. What that I mean? And it's like not
Speaker 1: every movie can do everything. So I don't even know
Speaker 1: how much of a criticism this is, but that creative
Speaker 1: decision means that there's no room for nuance in the discussion.
Speaker 1: Like it's like, if you're flipping traditional gender roles manufactured
Speaker 1: by society in this sixties seventies way, then yeah, it
Speaker 1: feels like Annabella doesn't leave herself a lot of area
Speaker 1: to discuss living outside of like traditionally prescribed gender identities
Speaker 1: or like so, so I I understand why, like that
Speaker 1: is something that feels kind of glaringly missing. I don't know,
Speaker 1: this is such a complicated discussion. Do you do you
Speaker 1: think I'm really curious about this? Do you guys think
Speaker 1: that it would be possible to emulate the sixties aesthetic
Speaker 1: and theme and balance a more nuanced feminist conversation, because
Speaker 1: I don't know, I feel like there would be room
Speaker 1: for I mean, there's What I don't understand is like
Speaker 1: why there's basically no non white actors in this movie,
Speaker 1: because even for the sixties or seventies, that's not off
Speaker 1: certainly like not off the table. So I thought that
Speaker 1: was like definitely a bizarre choice, and I wonder how
Speaker 1: consciously made that choice was, if at all. I don't know.
Speaker 1: I mean, but in terms of like having a nuanced
Speaker 1: conversation about gender, I mean, this is like the least
Speaker 1: nuance genre available, So I don't know. I yeah, I guess,
Speaker 1: I don't know. I feel like, I mean, you can
Speaker 1: just like even if you wanted it to be esthetically
Speaker 1: sixties camp technicolor melodrama B movie type thing, and still
Speaker 1: make commentary. I feel like that's possible because you can
Speaker 1: just take creative liberties with things and it I mean
Speaker 1: maybe it's it'll be disson it for some people, but
Speaker 1: I don't know, I feel like it could be effective.
Speaker 1: And now, okay, so now I'm thinking about how there's
Speaker 1: like long monologues because I was like, oh, yeah, I
Speaker 1: don't you know, I don't want anything that's bashing me overhead.
Speaker 1: But then there's like these long scenes where like Barbara
Speaker 1: and the the Witch man, gay In or whatever are like.
Speaker 1: And this is another example of where I'm not sure
Speaker 1: what the movie is exactly trying to say, because gay
Speaker 1: In and Barbara they're talking, and they're saying some things
Speaker 1: that I very much agree with, and then two seconds
Speaker 1: later they say some other things that I cannot really
Speaker 1: get behind. So I'm not sure exactly where the movie
Speaker 1: lands or if this is parody that I just don't
Speaker 1: quite get. But to give you an example, they're talking
Speaker 1: about how, like, you know, there's this history of witchcraft
Speaker 1: and it's interwoven with this fear of female sexuality and
Speaker 1: how women were burned at the stake because you know,
Speaker 1: men feared the erotic feelings that women solicited in them
Speaker 1: and stuff like that. But then gains like, oh, but
Speaker 1: a woman's greatest power lies in her sex ruality. And
Speaker 1: I just I always found it a little bizarre that
Speaker 1: that message came from a guy and who is clearly
Speaker 1: painted as creepy, because I'm not opposed to the message
Speaker 1: of like anyone finding their sexuality to be a liberating,
Speaker 1: empowering thing, but it's just like, sure, the vessel for
Speaker 1: the message is a little DISSI it, yeah, because later
Speaker 1: he's also like, because women's greatest power is in their sexuality,
Speaker 1: that means that you should wear perfume and high heels
Speaker 1: and makeup and learn to dress your hair in attractive ways,
Speaker 1: you know, display flesh artfully and be a mother and
Speaker 1: a lover. I'm always displaying flesh artfully as all about
Speaker 1: about you. And I'm not like anti makeup or anti
Speaker 1: perfume or anti explosing flesh, like I do all of
Speaker 1: these things. Anyone can do whatever they want with their body.
Speaker 1: But he's basically saying, do these things in order to
Speaker 1: be appealing to men, and it's very important that you
Speaker 1: do these things. And then he says like he's telling
Speaker 1: women to stand your ground, but always let the man
Speaker 1: feel like a man. And then Barbara's chiming in and
Speaker 1: she's saying, yeah, we have to use sex magic to
Speaker 1: destroy a man's fear of you. And so I'm like,
Speaker 1: is this what the movie subscribing to is? I didn't
Speaker 1: think so, Like, I I didn't think. I mean, I
Speaker 1: don't think that the movie was necessarily getting behind what
Speaker 1: Gan was saying because he's like, I feel like he's
Speaker 1: like clearly like this bizarre foil who's like trying to
Speaker 1: get women to behave the way that he wants. But
Speaker 1: I do, I do see what you're saying. That, like,
Speaker 1: the message of this movie can get a little like
Speaker 1: it's so esthetically pleasing, and then sometimes the message gets
Speaker 1: a little bit mouddled, especially in a in a scene
Speaker 1: like this, where again it's like this constant tug of
Speaker 1: war of like points that I agree with and that
Speaker 1: I think are coming from a place of like, yes,
Speaker 1: it's okay to be empowered sexually as a woman. Yes,
Speaker 1: women have historically been condemned and persecuted for their sexuality
Speaker 1: and perceived as being evil witches because of it. And
Speaker 1: then two seconds later, like this guy who Barbara and
Speaker 1: Elaine seem to agree with, is like, and that's why
Speaker 1: you should make yourself as attractive to men as possible,
Speaker 1: because that's how you become empowered. And I'm like, and
Speaker 1: again I'm like, this might be parody, but if it is,
Speaker 1: I can't not really tell. And it's just not quite
Speaker 1: working for me, just because of like the way the
Speaker 1: scene is written, the delivery of the dialogue. There's just
Speaker 1: like all these things that to me make it feel
Speaker 1: very dissonant. It does I mean it just it does
Speaker 1: seem like it's a matter of like this is just
Speaker 1: like not definitely like not a movie for everyone, like
Speaker 1: at its core, which like, yeah, I guess leads me
Speaker 1: to my kind of spiel about how I tend to
Speaker 1: feel this pressure to like media made by women and
Speaker 1: other marginalized creators, especially media with a feminist with feminist
Speaker 1: themes like The Love, which because I want to be
Speaker 1: supportive to these filmmakers and this cause, but I also
Speaker 1: don't want to feel like I kind of have to
Speaker 1: automatically like these things based solely on this pressure to
Speaker 1: feel supportive and because then it's just pandering, Like yeah,
Speaker 1: I do. I do feel It's like I don't know,
Speaker 1: everyone has a different perspective on this, but I feel
Speaker 1: like I'm like I'm always going to like give a
Speaker 1: marginalized creator's project and work a chance, like before I
Speaker 1: will give some rando white guy a chance. But it
Speaker 1: doesn't mean like I don't know. We talked about this
Speaker 1: on this We've talked about this on the show in
Speaker 1: the past, where it's like, you know, true true equality
Speaker 1: means that everyone makes mediocre ship sometimes if the difference
Speaker 1: is more in like how you know the number of
Speaker 1: flaming hoops that are added for for marginalized creators. But
Speaker 1: it's like exactly, it's like, this is a movie by
Speaker 1: a woman of color, and she did have to jump
Speaker 1: through a lot of hoops to make it, and it's
Speaker 1: still not for everybody. I know. That's like kind of
Speaker 1: what I'm grappling with on this entire episode, as I'm
Speaker 1: sure listeners can tell. Where like, I want to be
Speaker 1: able to judge things based on merit and based on
Speaker 1: the quality of storytelling, which is the criteria I used
Speaker 1: to judge media made by cis head white men, because again,
Speaker 1: like true feminism is to me is that it is
Speaker 1: okay to admit that you don't like a thing made
Speaker 1: by a woman. But like you said, you know, I
Speaker 1: know how difficult it is for marginalized creators to their
Speaker 1: movies made, to get funding for their projects two strikes
Speaker 1: if there's a flop, etcetera. Yeah, I mean right that,
Speaker 1: you know, distribution and like have their movies seen by
Speaker 1: a large audience. They don't. They don't even get to
Speaker 1: do the same job. And I can't emphasize that enough
Speaker 1: because I've seen I've seen it all different ways, and
Speaker 1: they just don't even get to do the same job,
Speaker 1: and it's just not fucking fair to judge them on
Speaker 1: the same standards because it's a different ball game. Um,
Speaker 1: that's why I am inclined to be more forgiving, or
Speaker 1: to just to not not be more forgiving, but like
Speaker 1: to like, Okay, what were the circumstances here, Like what
Speaker 1: was the budget? Who else was involved in? Really like
Speaker 1: analyze that part of the situation in context with how
Speaker 1: I view my opinion of the movie, because I think
Speaker 1: all of that really hugely matters. And like, like Anna Biller,
Speaker 1: she had had experiences like that with her own crew
Speaker 1: on this very movie. There was a piece in Indie
Speaker 1: Wire published in late seventeen based on of a Twitter
Speaker 1: thread that Anna Biller had made about how she felt
Speaker 1: very frustrated by and disrespected by her own crew at
Speaker 1: many points. And it doesn't sound like it was like
Speaker 1: anyone high up. It sounds like the actors were all
Speaker 1: very respectful, but um, just feeling that like that she
Speaker 1: as a director who was a woman and also a
Speaker 1: person of color, like she was not taken as seriously
Speaker 1: as someone who was Like admittedly, I mean, if you've
Speaker 1: seen the movie, she's doing some weird stuff. She's making
Speaker 1: some like hard choices. The swings are big ones. But
Speaker 1: it doesn't sound like her crew was as I don't know.
Speaker 1: I mean, they weren't treating her like they would if
Speaker 1: she was like David Lynch being like, we're doing something
Speaker 1: weird today, everybody, and like they were just like, this
Speaker 1: woman doesn't know what she's doing. So I wanted to.
Speaker 1: I mean, she she we can link to this as well.
Speaker 1: But she was saying, quote, it was so bad that
Speaker 1: during reshoots we had different A d S Assistant directors
Speaker 1: and they were appalled at what was going on. They said,
Speaker 1: your own crew is sabotaging you. Why uh blah blah blah.
Speaker 1: She said she's had quote this same thing on other films.
Speaker 1: Some crew members seem how bent on destroying you and
Speaker 1: the film to make sure it never gets in the can.
Speaker 1: I think it has to do something with being a
Speaker 1: female director, and something to do with how the line
Speaker 1: producers said a bad vibe and then disappeared, so you know,
Speaker 1: it's like and also it's person to person. I don't
Speaker 1: know what Anna Biller's directing style or personality is. The
Speaker 1: examples are too vague, but it does that's just like
Speaker 1: painted in my head of like yeah, just like your
Speaker 1: own crew is not aligning with your creative vision. That
Speaker 1: has to be so frustrating as long as you are
Speaker 1: treating your crew well, right, because you're just a different
Speaker 1: shape and a different like, they won't see you the
Speaker 1: same as they see a man, and so they're not
Speaker 1: going to just intrinsically the way that things are. They
Speaker 1: will not treat you the same and you will not
Speaker 1: get the same respect, and so it is in earrently
Speaker 1: a different ballgame to direct as a woman, and I'm
Speaker 1: sure as as an Asian woman. Like it's like, um,
Speaker 1: do you know who you're talking to? Like this is
Speaker 1: the director of the movie? Like yeah, Like who said
Speaker 1: do you think you're on? Yeah? Yeah, who do you
Speaker 1: think is paying? Like who do you think your job
Speaker 1: is coming from? Like yeah, I feel like it is
Speaker 1: Like that's like a conversation that I hope we keep
Speaker 1: having because it's like, I don't know, I mean, it
Speaker 1: is kind of a difficult thing to reconcile. And I
Speaker 1: mean I totally see where you're coming from. Caitlin's like
Speaker 1: we don't want to like judge directors on separate scales,
Speaker 1: like that's not fair. But then it's also like, but
Speaker 1: not being assist white guy making a movie is going
Speaker 1: to affect your experience totally significantly. So it's just which again,
Speaker 1: I do want to like acknowledge and like take into
Speaker 1: consideration as I am judging a movie. I don't want
Speaker 1: to like ignore that or be like it doesn't matter.
Speaker 1: I'm just going to judge a movie because like the
Speaker 1: movie by the movie. But at the end of the day,
Speaker 1: there were just some movies that, yeah, like that just
Speaker 1: don't end up being for me, and all I have
Speaker 1: to do is just not watch them. Ever again, I
Speaker 1: think it's just like the work of asking yourself, like, well,
Speaker 1: why isn't it for me? And if you hit a
Speaker 1: block there, if you're like, well, I just couldn't perfectly
Speaker 1: relate with the main character because they weren't exactly my
Speaker 1: perspective or bah. Like if if you're hitting blocks that
Speaker 1: are you know, based on your own biases or your
Speaker 1: own unwillingness to learn about the experiences of others, Like yeah,
Speaker 1: sit yourself down in your little inner brain chamber and
Speaker 1: have a little talk like and that is a huge
Speaker 1: and I feel like that is like kind of in
Speaker 1: conversation with what you're talking about. And and part of
Speaker 1: the reason it's so hard for marginalized creators to get
Speaker 1: projects funded is because there is such a like sis
Speaker 1: white male normative, like if a if a white guy
Speaker 1: can't enjoy your movie, then you don't get a movie. Sorry.
Speaker 1: Like but in this wait, it's like if you're if
Speaker 1: you ask yourself, which it seems like you very much
Speaker 1: have in the case of this movie, like why is
Speaker 1: this movie not for me? And the answer is like
Speaker 1: I didn't like the writing and I it's not my genre.
Speaker 1: Then it's like, yeah, you're not, Like you're not going
Speaker 1: to go to hell, Like it's totally fine. I don't know.
Speaker 1: It's it's like it's a very It's like a similarly
Speaker 1: hard thing to grapple with as um being a hetero
Speaker 1: woman who likes the romantic attention of men. It's confusing,
Speaker 1: it's all complicated. We're all on a journey here, baby. Yes,
Speaker 1: I did want to shout out the cinematographer of this movie,
Speaker 1: who is an icon. We've covered his work before. M
Speaker 1: David Mullen, a Japanese cinematographer. Check out this resume, Baby
Speaker 1: Aquila and the b Jennifer's Body and the Love Which
Speaker 1: amongst other but those were the three that jumped out
Speaker 1: to me as like, oh hell yeah that Debs he rocks,
Speaker 1: he rocks. Yeah, I mean Aquila and the Bat alone,
Speaker 1: and also a bunch of Madmen, a bunch of West
Speaker 1: world Sarah Silverman special, just like amazing work top to bottom.
Speaker 1: So I just wanted to shout out m David Mullen.
Speaker 1: I just wanted to take a moment to give credit
Speaker 1: to a man brave. Yeah, But I was like, wait
Speaker 1: a second, the same guy who did the camera work
Speaker 1: on Aquila and the Bat which I we have to cover.
Speaker 1: We have to I can't believe we haven't covered Acula
Speaker 1: Um Classic. I want to point out the heteronormativity and
Speaker 1: gender normativity, especially in the way that the characters discuss
Speaker 1: love and sex and romance and stuff, and again might
Speaker 1: bee that's part of the commentary and parody of it all,
Speaker 1: But all the love and sex that gets discussed in
Speaker 1: this movie only refers to hetero attraction between SIS men
Speaker 1: and CIS women. Discussions around gender are always framed in
Speaker 1: a very kind of rigid binary of men and woman
Speaker 1: and not acknowledging anyone else on the gender spectrum um,
Speaker 1: which I do think that there could have been room
Speaker 1: for in this movie in terms of diversity and race,
Speaker 1: body type, and and I feel like, you know, I
Speaker 1: know that queer identities were like I almost went full
Speaker 1: boss and I was like wicked underrepresented in movies in
Speaker 1: the sixties and seventies. But there's there was like queer
Speaker 1: b movie cinema that existed, Like there there was, there
Speaker 1: was definitely room for it, right, But and then well,
Speaker 1: I also have to kind of question, like, is the
Speaker 1: movie stylistically paying homage to that era and the movies
Speaker 1: that came out in that era an excuse for why
Speaker 1: I the movie looks like it does in terms of
Speaker 1: whiteness and body normativity and gender and heteronormativity. I don't know.
Speaker 1: I don't feel like that's a very good excuse for
Speaker 1: a movie that comes out within the past five years.
Speaker 1: But I don't know. I would that's again, that's something
Speaker 1: that I would be interested in deferring to annabiller on
Speaker 1: because I do I'm like, I trust that she has
Speaker 1: a creative vision and if there's a question that it's
Speaker 1: like she's truly like, oh, I guess I wasn't thinking
Speaker 1: about that that hard and I don't have reasoning for it.
Speaker 1: Then it's like, okay, well then I'm criticizing you for that.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I would I would be. This is just
Speaker 1: something that I was just like, I wish she would
Speaker 1: answer these questions. Maybe she has and we just don't know. Um.
Speaker 1: Does anyone have other thoughts about the movie? It's everything
Speaker 1: that I had. I don't think there's anything I loved.
Speaker 1: When she's burying way and her total tangent to talk
Speaker 1: about her cat that she misses so much, Like, yes,
Speaker 1: it's like my best friend. I was like, wow, feelings
Speaker 1: seen girls. Uh yeah. There were a lot of moments
Speaker 1: in this movie that I thought were like very funny
Speaker 1: or like just I don't know, Like the moments where
Speaker 1: I did understand what was being referenced, I was like,
Speaker 1: who I love this ship. Um, And then there are
Speaker 1: other moments that I'm like, this is referencing something I'm
Speaker 1: assuming I don't know, but yeah, does it pass the
Speaker 1: Bachtel test? I believe it does a couple of times,
Speaker 1: not a ton of times, because it is mostly you know,
Speaker 1: women talking about men. What were we talking about? Oh? Yeah, men? Yeah,
Speaker 1: but it does past a few times. It is like
Speaker 1: more on a technicality than I was expecting, honestly. But
Speaker 1: there is that whole I mean, there's that whole interest
Speaker 1: scene where Trish and Elane are meeting each other. They're
Speaker 1: talking about the house, They're talking about why did you
Speaker 1: move there? There, They're talking about a couple of things
Speaker 1: that are not about men, like it does is past
Speaker 1: interior decorating. Yes, Elaine also talks to the which shop
Speaker 1: lady about selling her weares. Yes, but most of the
Speaker 1: conversations between Mary meeting Um, But most of the conversations
Speaker 1: between women are either directly about men or the subtext
Speaker 1: of the conversation is about using witchcraft to find hetero
Speaker 1: love with a man. Which makes sense, it's a story
Speaker 1: about a woman who is trying to find hetero love.
Speaker 1: But also why are so many movies where a woman
Speaker 1: is the protagonist? About that? This movie broke my brain? Yeah,
Speaker 1: this movie, this is the movie that broke the podcast.
Speaker 1: Congratulations Annabellair, congratulations as the podcast broken. I'm so glad
Speaker 1: that that I got to bring this one. I am too,
Speaker 1: I really like i I'm this movie is going to
Speaker 1: like haunt me and I think in a in a
Speaker 1: generally positive way. I feel like there's gonna be a
Speaker 1: lot of listeners who are going to be like, Caitlin,
Speaker 1: you fucking asshole with your horrible opinions about this movie.
Speaker 1: Very hard on yourself. I mean usually I am, yes,
Speaker 1: I don't know my again, my brain is broken, and
Speaker 1: let's rate it. Let's rade it. Let's rade it. Our
Speaker 1: nipple scale is zero to five nipples based on how
Speaker 1: the movie fairs. Looking at it through an intersectional feminist lens,
Speaker 1: here's what I'll say, Oh my god, ready, um knowing
Speaker 1: who made the movie and Annabeller being a very vocal,
Speaker 1: outspoken feminist and all of the work she put into
Speaker 1: it and the care she put into it, and what
Speaker 1: is clearly messages of the sexual of you know, women
Speaker 1: and fems, and how that's historically been feared and punished,
Speaker 1: and how it deserves to be empowered, and how there's
Speaker 1: commentary on toxic masculinity and male fragility, how there's kind
Speaker 1: of this acknowledgement or maybe this was just my read
Speaker 1: of it, but open to interpretation, that it's exploring this
Speaker 1: kind of tug of war of like being a sexually
Speaker 1: liberated feminist person and also a heterosexual woman who is
Speaker 1: attracted to men, and how that can be confusing you.
Speaker 1: It's like, do you kill the men? Do you have
Speaker 1: sex with them? Why not? Boy? Cannot be both? Do
Speaker 1: you get into a relationship with them and then have
Speaker 1: sex with them and then kill them? It could be everything,
Speaker 1: take anything off the table, and this movie certainly does
Speaker 1: not take any of those options off the table, right,
Speaker 1: So I think it's attempting to do some interesting things.
Speaker 1: I think that because the screenplay and just the way
Speaker 1: the story was crafted is muddled and dissonant. I found
Speaker 1: a lot of the messaging to get lost in that,
Speaker 1: and I feel like it wasn't as um again, not
Speaker 1: as effective commentary for me as it seems to be
Speaker 1: for a lot of other people. And again that's probably
Speaker 1: that's just like a personal preference art being open to
Speaker 1: interpretation kind of thing. So I appreciate what it seems
Speaker 1: to be doing, and because of that, I will award
Speaker 1: the movie three nipples. Maybe that's too harsh, but that's
Speaker 1: what feels right to me at this time. Three nipples.
Speaker 1: I'll give one to Anna Biller's costume design. I'll give
Speaker 1: one too, Anna Biller's score, and I'll give one to
Speaker 1: the prop that is the used tampon that goes into
Speaker 1: the witch bottle. I'm gonna go three and a half here.
Speaker 1: I here's what I think boiled down. The movie is
Speaker 1: too white and too straight even for the genre it
Speaker 1: is parodying for my personal preference, and that is kind
Speaker 1: of my biggest stumbling block with this movie. I don't
Speaker 1: see why there couldn't have been more characters and also
Speaker 1: like a body normative things we've we've discussed at this
Speaker 1: point in the episode, but I think that there was
Speaker 1: certainly more room even within the confines of what Anna
Speaker 1: Biller was very clearly referencing. So that I think is
Speaker 1: my my main critique. Outside of that, I think like
Speaker 1: this is like a movie that I am very glad exists.
Speaker 1: I feel like the fact that it broke all of
Speaker 1: our brains in the way that it did actually speaks
Speaker 1: to the movie and speaks to the fact that it
Speaker 1: is good that that like that. I'm that I'm very
Speaker 1: glad it exists because it's presenting, you know, in a
Speaker 1: in a very weird way that seems very inherent to
Speaker 1: like who this director is and how many women get
Speaker 1: to make very like weird movies exactly how they want
Speaker 1: to and while she, while she was certainly limited by budget,
Speaker 1: got to do the whole thing by herself and have
Speaker 1: it received with extremely open arms by the general public,
Speaker 1: which I feel like it's also unusual for marginalized oh twos,
Speaker 1: where you feel like it's a more normal reception to
Speaker 1: be like, you know, white guy reviewers being like, well,
Speaker 1: I don't know what the funk that was about anyway,
Speaker 1: like you know, so I think that they're like, this
Speaker 1: movie has a lot going on, and the fact that
Speaker 1: like we were like like the different ways of navigating patriarchy,
Speaker 1: and again it is a very like how heterosexual women
Speaker 1: navigate the patriarchy. But but but even the shades of
Speaker 1: gray within that very specific group of people who are
Speaker 1: overrepresentative movies. But to have that and have both of
Speaker 1: them sort of lose, it's frustrating, But it's also so
Speaker 1: reflective of what real life can be and except everyone
Speaker 1: is really sexy and wearing cool costumes, and so ultimately
Speaker 1: I think that it's I think it's definitely worth a
Speaker 1: watch if you enjoy like very I'm trying to think
Speaker 1: of the world like whatever The intellectual word for quirky
Speaker 1: is that, like the I like anachronistic. It's not that,
Speaker 1: but it sounds like that. Kitchen kitchi is kind of
Speaker 1: what has in mind kitchy kitchen. It is definitely kitchy.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna think of this word in like three hours
Speaker 1: and then walking into traffic. But I'm very glad this
Speaker 1: movie because I think it's I mean, just based on
Speaker 1: the conversation we've had here alone, I would recommend watching
Speaker 1: and see what you think. Maybe I like it, maybe
Speaker 1: you won't. And that's just kind of art movies. Um,
Speaker 1: So I'll give it three and a half talking for
Speaker 1: the reasons described. I'll give one to Elaine. I'll give
Speaker 1: one to Trish, I will give one to Annabiller. I'll
Speaker 1: give my last half to Elaine's cat that died, poor kitty, Melissa.
Speaker 1: What say you? I'm going a solid four nips? Wow,
Speaker 1: we really did the spectrum. You already gave a nip
Speaker 1: to Gray Malkins, so I'm gonna give Grat Malkin to
Speaker 1: just to like be extra. I think this movie is
Speaker 1: so clever. I think it's so funny. I think that
Speaker 1: the satire of it it works so well for me,
Speaker 1: because there's just so much to pick apart, and it's
Speaker 1: not straightforward and you have to kind of look at
Speaker 1: it for longer. And I can't remember the exact quote
Speaker 1: that Anna says um, but she said something about making
Speaker 1: it for the feminine gays and how she did a
Speaker 1: lot of artistry with the costumes and the sets and
Speaker 1: all of that so that you weren't just looking at
Speaker 1: the women's sexually being like, oh, she's a beautiful woman.
Speaker 1: It's like there's all of this other stuff to look
Speaker 1: at at the same time. So she wanted there to
Speaker 1: be like that to be part of it. But they're
Speaker 1: for they're time more to look at. So I think
Speaker 1: it's I don't know. I just think it's such a
Speaker 1: great movie. I do want to share a quick quote
Speaker 1: from Annabeller from an article in The Guardian in which
Speaker 1: she's kind of talking about what she wanted to do
Speaker 1: with this movie and like different cinematic identities she wanted
Speaker 1: to reclaim as far as like archetypes and stereotypes and
Speaker 1: and and like things like that, as far as like
Speaker 1: female characters throughout cinema, and she says, or sorry, so sorry,
Speaker 1: this is talking about what Annabeller wanted to do. So
Speaker 1: it's not a direct quote from her, but it says
Speaker 1: that she quote cites other female movie types whose voices
Speaker 1: she would like to reclaim, the sexually aggressive, confident women
Speaker 1: of the pre Hayes Code era, when many more screenwriters
Speaker 1: were women, film noir fem fatales such as and Savage
Speaker 1: in Detour and Jane Grier in Out of the Past
Speaker 1: projections of male postwar anxiety and misogyny. And then she says, quote,
Speaker 1: I'm doing that with the Love, which reclaiming the figure
Speaker 1: of the which the fem fatale, an old sort of
Speaker 1: male fantasy figure, and make it a fem fatale seen
Speaker 1: from the female side unquote. So you know, I appreciate that.
Speaker 1: I get what she's doing. Caitlin, It's okay you didn't
Speaker 1: like the movie with that alysta. Where can we find
Speaker 1: your online? Where can we follow you and follow your work?
Speaker 1: You can find me omg Chump on Twitter and Instagram,
Speaker 1: and you can find my work at Krypt t v
Speaker 1: on Twitter and Instagram. It's krypt t v. And you
Speaker 1: can also watch Girl in the Woods, which is our
Speaker 1: new show coming on Peacock this October, and the whole
Speaker 1: show centers around a queer love triangle and a non
Speaker 1: binary person coming out and girls kiss in the first episode.
Speaker 1: That's all I'm gonna say. It's spooky, it's fun. I
Speaker 1: think it's got something for everybody. Yes, everyone, be sure
Speaker 1: to check out The Girl in the Woods on Peacock TV,
Speaker 1: which drops October twenty one, which, depending on the release
Speaker 1: date of this episode, might be today, So check it out.
Speaker 1: Uh And then you can follow us on Twitter and
Speaker 1: Instagram at Bechtel Cast. And of course there's our Patreon
Speaker 1: a k a Matreon, which is found at patreon dot com,
Speaker 1: slash pecktel Cast. It's five dollars a month. It gets
Speaker 1: you to this episodes per month and also the entire
Speaker 1: back catalog. Love it. You can get merch at t
Speaker 1: public dot com slash v Bechdel Cast. And the last
Speaker 1: thing I'll say is everything I didn't like about this
Speaker 1: movie or the moments I didn't like where when I
Speaker 1: felt like I was watching a Lanta del Rey music
Speaker 1: video and that I feel like I'm like, well, I'm
Speaker 1: bringing my biases to the table as well. Sure, sure, okay,
Speaker 1: bye bye,