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Speaker 1: On the Doodcast, the questions asked if movies have women

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Speaker 1: and um are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands

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Speaker 1: or do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zef in best

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Speaker 1: start changing it with the bec del Cast. Hey, Caitlin, Yeah, Jamie.

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Speaker 1: Do you feel like podcast hosts are supposed to please

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Speaker 1: each other? Do you think it's one podcast host responsibility

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Speaker 1: to bring pleasure to the other podcast host? Or am

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Speaker 1: I just thinking too binary about our media? Sounds to

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Speaker 1: me like you've been brainwashed by the patriarchy bike podcast

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Speaker 1: gotten or should I say the pod triarchy? Wow? How

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Speaker 1: about that? It's true? It's true. It makes you think,

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Speaker 1: it makes you think. I hope, I hope Jack is

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Speaker 1: listening to this because we've been brainwashed by the patriarch

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Speaker 1: a k a. Jacob Bryan with little devil ears on

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Speaker 1: top of him. Oh my gosh. Well that was what

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Speaker 1: I had for the intro. I was I was like,

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Speaker 1: maybe we'll start debating, like Trisian Elaine being like, I

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Speaker 1: don't know, I don't care if my podcast co host

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Speaker 1: feels pleasure, and then I would be like, but you

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Speaker 1: have to bring your podcast co host pleasure. That's our

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Speaker 1: that's why I was put on this earth, Jamie, I

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Speaker 1: want you to feel all the pleasure that you want

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Speaker 1: to feel. Now it sounds like work for me, and

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Speaker 1: I don't want to do it. Well, we already have

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Speaker 1: a lively debate going Welcome to the Bechtel Cast. My

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Speaker 1: name is Jamie Loftus, my name is Caitlin Durante, and

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Speaker 1: this is our show about movies in which we look

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Speaker 1: at them through an intersectional feminist lens, using the Bechtel

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Speaker 1: Test as a jumping off point. There's a lot more

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Speaker 1: to discuss, but we kick it off. Actually we end

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Speaker 1: the episode on the Bechdel test, so what are we talking?

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Speaker 1: And then sometimes we don't even remember to do it.

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Speaker 1: As as we've said multiple times, it's so fun to like,

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Speaker 1: and not in a way that it's got your ass,

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Speaker 1: but in a way that you're like, oh, okay, just

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Speaker 1: like you know how people will tell like simple social

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Speaker 1: wise before, like oh I love your pig whatever, you know,

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Speaker 1: But when someone says that about the Becktel Cast and

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Speaker 1: then they're like, yeah, that's such a cool idea figuring

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Speaker 1: out if movies past the Bechdel test, I was like, oh,

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Speaker 1: so you have not actually have not actually listened. And

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Speaker 1: then I go to their little cabin upstate and I

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Speaker 1: kill them because they fall in love with me so

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Speaker 1: hard that they die. Yeah, and then you piston ship

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Speaker 1: and put your tampons in a jar, and then there's

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Speaker 1: voice over about like, this is actually really cool that

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Speaker 1: I'm doing this, and I did that was one of

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Speaker 1: my favorite parts when she's doing like the grossest thing

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Speaker 1: I can think of, and then there's a voiceover that's like, actually,

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Speaker 1: this is people need to chill out about the fact

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Speaker 1: that I'm putting my pisth and ship in a jar.

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Speaker 1: And I'm like, wow, makes you think, makes you think? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: So what is the Bechtel Test? Though? Oh yeah, okay,

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Speaker 1: So the Bechtel Test is a media metric created by

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Speaker 1: queer cartoonist Alison Bechdel. Is sometimes called the Bechtel Wallace Test.

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Speaker 1: There's many versions of the test, but the version we

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Speaker 1: use is that a piece of media should feature at

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Speaker 1: least one exchange between two people of a marginalized gender

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Speaker 1: with names, and they must speak to each other about

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Speaker 1: something other than a man, and for our purposes, it

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Speaker 1: has to be a meaningful exchange. I won't even get

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Speaker 1: into it too much, because this movie passes pretty handily.

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Speaker 1: I feel like we don't need to like split, maybe

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Speaker 1: not as handily as I would have expected it does,

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Speaker 1: but like, yeah, okay, Caitlin is gonna be hard on.

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Speaker 1: It's gonna be Caitlin did not like the movie. I

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Speaker 1: don't know how I feel about the movie. I'm in

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Speaker 1: too chaotic a headspace. But that is why we bring

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Speaker 1: a guest on, because we don't know shit about ship

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Speaker 1: at times, and I feel like in the horror genre,

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Speaker 1: we that is, that's where we've been, that's where we're at,

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Speaker 1: and so we have to bring on extra special experts

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Speaker 1: in the genre to explain to us what the funk

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Speaker 1: is going on. So let's bring guests. I love this movie.

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Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, I'm so excited. Unemasginedly love this movie.

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Speaker 1: I've seen it definitely more than six times. I was

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Speaker 1: trying to count last night when I watched it this

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Speaker 1: past time. So at least six maybe minimum, tin maybe

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Speaker 1: like at least in Yeah, I don't know. Okay, Well, okay,

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Speaker 1: so the voice you just heard is that of director

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Speaker 1: of social Media at Crypt TV, where there's an there's

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Speaker 1: a new show coming out this fall called Girl in

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Speaker 1: the Woods. It's streaming on Peacock TV. It was co

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Speaker 1: executive produced by our guest from last week's episode, Jasmine Johnson,

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Speaker 1: so be sure to check out The Girl in the Woods.

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Speaker 1: This week's guest is Alyssa and not Freyo. Hello, Welcome, Welcome,

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much for having me. A big fan

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Speaker 1: of the longtime listener. Yay, thanks, thanks for coming on.

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Speaker 1: We're so stoked to have you. And we're like because

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Speaker 1: you're you and also because you know so much about horror,

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Speaker 1: and as we were just alluding to, it's not a

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Speaker 1: genre either of us have a huge history with so

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Speaker 1: before so we're covering the Love which at twenty sixteen movie.

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Speaker 1: And so Alyssa, let's start by just talking about like

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Speaker 1: your history with horror, because I'm interested in, like what

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Speaker 1: draws you to the genre, what got you in, and

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Speaker 1: then we'll kind of get into the movie. So, growing up,

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Speaker 1: I was not into horror. I was Disney movies only childhood,

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Speaker 1: Like my parents did not allow anything beyond that. And uh,

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Speaker 1: I think I saw The Shining in college, which I

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Speaker 1: really liked. But my foreign of horror experience was my

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Speaker 1: freshman year of high school. At a boy girls sleepover,

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Speaker 1: they played Texas Chainsaw Massacre, the remake, and it was

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Speaker 1: the scariest fucking thing that's ever happened to me, and

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Speaker 1: it was Yeah, it was horrible. I was like, I

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Speaker 1: never want to see another horror movie again. That was horrible.

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Speaker 1: And also everyone was pranking each other all night, so

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Speaker 1: it was like extra spooky. So I saw I swaw

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Speaker 1: off horror for a while. And then college, I liked

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Speaker 1: the Shining that I took a class where I had

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Speaker 1: to watch The Ring. Walked out of that screening straight up,

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Speaker 1: was like, no, this is too scary. I saw The

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Speaker 1: Ring probably I don't remember when that movie came out,

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Speaker 1: but I saw it at my cousin's house shortly after

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Speaker 1: it came out, and I like pissed myself and had

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Speaker 1: to go home. That movie is very scary. It's so scary.

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Speaker 1: I can't watch that. I have not gone back to

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Speaker 1: Texas Chansaw. I tried to watch the seventies one. I'm

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Speaker 1: still like, it's not about it. It's too scary. It's

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Speaker 1: just like, yeah, trauma, memory's scary. Then I saw Alien

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Speaker 1: and Aliens and I was like, wait, what the funk

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Speaker 1: this was a movie in the eighties and no one

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Speaker 1: told me about it until I'm fucking furious. Uh. And

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Speaker 1: then I also saw the Thing that year and I

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Speaker 1: was like, wait, this was here the whole time and

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Speaker 1: no one told me. And then I also saw Evil

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Speaker 1: Dead too, and I just loved all of that, like

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Speaker 1: super extreme creature and like, I really love campy horror stone. Also,

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Speaker 1: I've been and so I've been working at krypt since.

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Speaker 1: So I'm coming up on my four year anniversary. Um

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Speaker 1: can't but yeah, the company has come a long way.

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Speaker 1: But we we make we're digital multimedia companies. We've started

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Speaker 1: by making short films on Facebook and YouTube and now

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Speaker 1: we have show on Peacock. I make TikTok's with our

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Speaker 1: monsters and they do a bunch of really silly stuff.

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Speaker 1: There's there's a TikTok of the Looksie, one of our monsters,

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Speaker 1: with this guy Johnny bridge Hold and they're like flirting

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Speaker 1: with each other and Tricy Mittel liked it on Twitter,

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Speaker 1: so like that's like one of my things that I

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Speaker 1: was part of, and I'm like, you've made it my dream,

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Speaker 1: I've made it, Yeah, exactly, That's so cool. Okay. And

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Speaker 1: then so so you like know your ship. It does

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Speaker 1: bring me some comfort that you're also a latecomer to

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Speaker 1: the genre, because I feel like there's a lot of

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Speaker 1: the horror horror fans I've spoken with in the past,

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Speaker 1: they're like, I was born, I was born into horror.

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Speaker 1: There definitely is some like gate keepiness about some of

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Speaker 1: the community. There are other people I've found that the

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Speaker 1: crypt community has definitely built themselves around are the people

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Speaker 1: who are just lovers of horror who want to share

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Speaker 1: it with other people and want to welcome people in

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Speaker 1: wherever you know that ends up being. So I have

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Speaker 1: another friend of mine, this guy dead Meat, who does

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Speaker 1: a kill Count YouTube channel, and yeah, I think about yeah,

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Speaker 1: oh yeah. So for a lot of kids who don't

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Speaker 1: watch the horror movies, they can watch the kill Count

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Speaker 1: and it's like a silly way of like getting into

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Speaker 1: horror or like watching something that is too scary for you.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, there's a lot of horror fans that are

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Speaker 1: more welcoming and want to get people in. Nice Oh

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Speaker 1: my gosh. So then as far as your relationship with

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Speaker 1: the Love, which you said you love it and you've

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Speaker 1: seen it several times. I love this movie. Yeah, so

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Speaker 1: it came out in sixteen. I saw it. I think

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Speaker 1: it was because they were doing a screening of it

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Speaker 1: at the New Beverley and they had a bunch of

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Speaker 1: Annabeller's original paintings hung up in the theater. So there

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Speaker 1: was a night where she was there, I think, but

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Speaker 1: I didn't see her in person, but I did get

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Speaker 1: to see all of her original paintings because she directed, wrote, produced,

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Speaker 1: made the costumes, made the sets, the score. Yeah yeah,

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Speaker 1: everything she did everything that blew me away, because yeah,

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Speaker 1: I was like, it took her like, what like seven

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Speaker 1: years to make this movie. Yeah, so wild. Yeah. So,

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Speaker 1: So another friend of mine had seen it at the

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Speaker 1: New Beverley and was like, Melissa, this is exactly your ship.

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Speaker 1: You need to go, Like do you love spooky stuff

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Speaker 1: and like sixties mud horror, campy like CULTI And so

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Speaker 1: I went and I saw and I was like, It's

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Speaker 1: just the best thing I've ever seen. I just also

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Speaker 1: seeing it in a theater with people, everyone was laughing.

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Speaker 1: And so there have been other times since then. I'm

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Speaker 1: now showing it to people and I've been like looking

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Speaker 1: at them expectedly and they're like, I don't know how

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Speaker 1: to react to this, like, I'm kind of freaked out, hello,

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Speaker 1: because Caitlin and I had like different degrees of reaction

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Speaker 1: to that, and it does. I can't see how seeing

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Speaker 1: this movie in a theater would have made a difference,

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Speaker 1: because it does feel like especially with part of my

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Speaker 1: so my history with this movie is I have no

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Speaker 1: history with this movie, and I was very excited that

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Speaker 1: you brought it to us because they had heard of

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Speaker 1: it several times. But I just had no I didn't

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Speaker 1: know anything because this movie is streaming and a lot

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Speaker 1: of places, and I was really stoked to watch it,

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Speaker 1: and I felt like I didn't have the pre existing

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Speaker 1: knowledge of what was being like pastiche to understand some

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Speaker 1: of the references. So I'm excited to go through them

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Speaker 1: because I think that, like I mean, in terms of

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Speaker 1: like if you showed me this movie and I did

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Speaker 1: not know when it came out, would not have been

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Speaker 1: like I feel like she nailed making it seem like

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Speaker 1: a movie from the seventies, Like in every single respect,

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Speaker 1: I never would have guessed that this came out in

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Speaker 1: the last ten years. You know, it's shot on thirty

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Speaker 1: five millimeter film and she's done. She did a lot

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Speaker 1: of collecting of vintage items, furniture and clothing and a

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Speaker 1: lot of stuff she remade herself. There are several tells though,

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Speaker 1: because there are modern cars and literally opens a cell phone.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god, I call in the restaurant. That's so.

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Speaker 1: There are two other references. There's a Stepford Wives References

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Speaker 1: which comes out in two and they referenced DNA testing,

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Speaker 1: which does not come into practice until So those are

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Speaker 1: the tales. So yeah, it's like I feel, I I

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Speaker 1: have a lot of questions and things I want to

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Speaker 1: like talk through and then criticisms as well. But I

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Speaker 1: do I mean, on its face, the like, I feel

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Speaker 1: like I'm gonna skew towards giving this movie the benefit

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Speaker 1: of the doubt in a lot of areas because it's

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Speaker 1: such a labor of love, and it's like I feel,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's like almost no directors get the chance

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Speaker 1: to do every single part of a movie and work

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Speaker 1: on it for the better part of a decade. And

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Speaker 1: the fact that a like a woman whose entire mission

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Speaker 1: statement for her whole career has been to see things

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Speaker 1: through the female gaze and and channel that I think

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Speaker 1: is so admirable and just really fucking cool. So I'm yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm excited to talk about it. UM. Caitlin, what's your

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Speaker 1: history with The Love Which? I had never seen it either,

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Speaker 1: It's only been the past three or four days since

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Speaker 1: I first saw it. I will similarly have to talk

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Speaker 1: through my feelings. Caitlyn hated it. She hate this movie.

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry everybody, but I don't like it. Um. I

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Speaker 1: think it has a lot to do with wait for listeners.

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Speaker 1: Alyssa just pant over to a framed poster she has

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Speaker 1: of the Love Witch. I also dressed as a love

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Speaker 1: Which for Halloween. In no way that's as good. I

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Speaker 1: did the rainbow code. You did the rainbow The rainbow

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Speaker 1: code was gorgeous, and then knowing that Annabeller made the

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Speaker 1: rainbow coat made it better. Like, that's so cool. I'm

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Speaker 1: excited that Kayle hated it, though, because I'm excited to

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Speaker 1: have this conversation and this is exactly what I wanted. Okay,

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Speaker 1: this is an open forum, baby, I'm I'm a centrist. Okay, yeah,

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Speaker 1: the spectrum is represented here. UM. As far as how

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Speaker 1: you might feel about The Love Which, UM, I will

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Speaker 1: try not to come down too too hard on it

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Speaker 1: because there are some things that it's attempting that I appreciate.

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Speaker 1: But then there's like I have a whole other, like

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Speaker 1: monologue prepared about what it means to be a true feminist,

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Speaker 1: and that means that I can hate a feminist piece

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Speaker 1: of art and that's okay, yeah spicy, I know. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I mean, well that's been we've been talking about that since.

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Speaker 1: Is like equality means that every one can be mediocre

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Speaker 1: ship and that's fine. Can bet, yeah, girl can bet?

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Speaker 1: But if I girl, oh no, must like other girl things.

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Speaker 1: But women support women, okay. Always. I feel like that's

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Speaker 1: what was that horrible movie. I feel like that's bombshell feminism.

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Speaker 1: That's like I have to empathize with Gretchen Carlson because

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Speaker 1: we're and you're like, no, I do not, baby, I

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Speaker 1: do not. Like, Yeah, I'm excited to get into that

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Speaker 1: because it's like, yeah, it's like if it's not your thing,

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Speaker 1: it's not your thing. Like that's fine, yeah, all right,

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Speaker 1: should we should we get into it? Let's get into it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you want to recap she want to recap it. I'll

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Speaker 1: be recapping it. Here we go. So, as we said,

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Speaker 1: the movie is very visually stylistic and homage and perhaps

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Speaker 1: even parody of like pulp novels and like technicolor B

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Speaker 1: movie melodramas of the nineties sixties. Down to the acting style,

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Speaker 1: to which I appreciate. I wasn't expecting that. I felt

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Speaker 1: like that was, like, the visuals are beautiful. Knowing that

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Speaker 1: the director made all the visuals is really cool to know.

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Speaker 1: But I felt like it was like kind of the

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Speaker 1: act the B movie acting that sold me on it. Weirdly,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, because I don't know how to describe

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Speaker 1: what kind of acting it is that they're doing. It's

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Speaker 1: not great. It's very stilted dialogue and like you can see,

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Speaker 1: at least for me, like I feel like I can

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Speaker 1: see the directing and I can like hear what directions

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Speaker 1: she gave the actors. And also there are many there

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Speaker 1: are a few points. I can't remember the woman's name

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Speaker 1: who's like the Queen of the Witches or whatever, but

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Speaker 1: she's like clearly looking at a card off camera, Barbara Barbara.

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Speaker 1: She's like very clearly like reading off of a card,

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Speaker 1: being like whiches have always been burned, and keeps looking

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Speaker 1: back and forth. And there's like no big names in

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Speaker 1: this movie, so it's hard, like it was kind of

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Speaker 1: fun to be Like, I wonder if that actor legitimately

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Speaker 1: has no talent or if they're playing a game of

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Speaker 1: four d ches. I don't know about hard to say,

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Speaker 1: but I thought Samantha Robinson was really, really, really good

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Speaker 1: in this part. It's I don't know how many actors

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Speaker 1: can but I okay, well we disagree on that. Like

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Speaker 1: I think she was in terms of like what it

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Speaker 1: seems like they wanted her to do, she did it.

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Speaker 1: I think she nailed this part. I think she fucking

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Speaker 1: was perfect for it. I don't think that anyone else

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Speaker 1: could have done it and sold it this way. But

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Speaker 1: I've never seen her in anything before. She's also in

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Speaker 1: this movie called Cam. She's not the main character of it,

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Speaker 1: but it's about a cam girl and like a competing

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Speaker 1: we've we've had Issa on the Pot before. Oh yeah, okay, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think I definitely listened to your episode. Yeah. I

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Speaker 1: think that she came on for easy A Yes anyway, yes, okay,

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Speaker 1: So we meet that character Elaine. She's driving in a

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Speaker 1: red convertible. Her voice over tells us that she's starting

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Speaker 1: a new life. We see shots of a man drinking

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Speaker 1: something that seems to be poisoned. It turns out that

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Speaker 1: this is her ex husband Jerry, who she may or

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Speaker 1: may not have murdered. Then Elaine gets pulled over by

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Speaker 1: a cop. We'll put a pin in that guy. But

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Speaker 1: then she continues on her way. Her voice over continues

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Speaker 1: and she basically is saying, like, when Jerry left me,

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Speaker 1: I devoured everything I could about how to get your

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Speaker 1: man back. So she's on a mission. She arrives at

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Speaker 1: this house she's moving into. This woman Trish lets her in,

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Speaker 1: and then she and Trish go to this Victorian tea

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Speaker 1: room where they have a conversation about love and romance

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Speaker 1: and please using men love Trish rooting for Trish um.

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Speaker 1: Elaine tells Trish how the day her husband Jerry left

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Speaker 1: her was the day that she died, but then she

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Speaker 1: was reborn as a witch. Uh. Then we see Elaine

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Speaker 1: making a love potion and she sort of like praise

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Speaker 1: to the goddess to be sent a beautiful sweet man.

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Speaker 1: Then she meets this guy Wayne, and she has him

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Speaker 1: take her to his house in the woods, where she

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Speaker 1: gives him her potion and mesmerizes him with some dancing

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Speaker 1: and also the lining of her coat and also this

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Speaker 1: hallucinigenic herbs. Yes, I figured that was part of the potion.

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Speaker 1: Wayne is I mean, you know r I p in

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Speaker 1: a second. But Wayne is such a piece of work

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Speaker 1: where I just never knew how he was, Like just

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Speaker 1: such a what was what was the word he used

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Speaker 1: to describe himself. That was just a way of saying horny,

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Speaker 1: like a libertine Like yeah, I was just like, okay,

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Speaker 1: so you're a horny Like it makes me laugh so

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Speaker 1: much when horny people use fancy words to describe themselves.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, you could just say your horny and we'll

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Speaker 1: all know what you're saying. And it doesn't make you

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Speaker 1: a genius to be horny. Sorry, Like you're not like

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Speaker 1: galaxy horny nous what people intellectualize being horny. It cracks

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Speaker 1: me up. Um, So he has drink this potion that

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Speaker 1: he doesn't know is this love potion, and then he's

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Speaker 1: all like, ah, I feel so weird, and then they

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Speaker 1: have sex, and then he seems to very painfully fall

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Speaker 1: in love with her to the point where he dies.

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Speaker 1: It becomes from it. It's like he it almost like

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Speaker 1: he almost like Benjamin Buttons, where he becomes more and

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Speaker 1: more baby like and then he dies. Yeah, he's like

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Speaker 1: screaming and crying. Yeah, like he's calling for his mom

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Speaker 1: and then he and then he dies and then he dies.

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Speaker 1: That was fascinating. So he dies, and then she buries

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Speaker 1: his body, along with a witch bottle that she makes

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Speaker 1: that she puts her urine and a used tampon into.

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Speaker 1: Then she meets up with some witch friends at a

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Speaker 1: burlesque show, Barbara and gayan I'm not sure. Um. They

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Speaker 1: talk about love spells and how Elaine should be careful

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Speaker 1: with using them, and they talk about how they as

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Speaker 1: women need to approach love and sex and it's mostly

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Speaker 1: gay and being like this is how women should have love,

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Speaker 1: this is how women should sex, and dancing sexy is

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Speaker 1: actually good chicken soup for the for the lady, you're

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Speaker 1: just like, shut up, okay. And again it's like that

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Speaker 1: actor I thought did a really good job of making

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Speaker 1: me want them to stop talking just being real nasty,

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Speaker 1: just being a gross person. Yes, then we get what

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Speaker 1: might be a flashback but also just might be the

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Speaker 1: next scene, which is a just kind of like ceremonial

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Speaker 1: ritual where a lane I think it's like inducted into

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Speaker 1: the witch coven or there's some induction type ritual. Okay,

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Speaker 1: got it. Then we cut to the cop that had

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Speaker 1: pulled a lane over at the beginning of the movie.

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Speaker 1: This is Sergeant Griff Meadows. He has been promoted and

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Speaker 1: now he's a detective who starts investigating the death of Wayne,

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Speaker 1: the guy who died after taking Elaine's love potion. They

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Speaker 1: find his buried body and the witch bottle that Elaine

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Speaker 1: left behind with her tampon and urine. I was like,

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Speaker 1: Elaine really does leave behind a lot of evidence, evidence

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Speaker 1: for an evidence like that was I was like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: it's very campy because she has just left like so

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Speaker 1: many different ways to identify her on the scene, a

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Speaker 1: very shallow grave with you everything that belongs to her

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Speaker 1: bodily and physically right on top, like just a pile

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Speaker 1: of different DNA samples, and here's my driver's license, and

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Speaker 1: here's my birth want, here's my actually my phone number,

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Speaker 1: and feel free to text. So, like, the cops find

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Speaker 1: the body because the teacher that works with Wayne is

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Speaker 1: kind of seeing what's happening and she reports him missing,

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Speaker 1: and so that's why the cops go up there. Right

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Speaker 1: that woman also saw Wayne leave with Elaine, so the

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Speaker 1: mountain of evidence just keeps piling up real stacked against her.

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Speaker 1: So this investigation is happening. Meanwhile, Elaine has dinner with Richard.

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Speaker 1: This is Tricia's husband while Trish is out of town.

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Speaker 1: Elane feeds him some love potion. Is what I think

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Speaker 1: we're meant to understand happens. She's seducing him and he's like,

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Speaker 1: who are you and she's like, I'm the love witch

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Speaker 1: and we're like that's like, She's like, yeah, I'm the

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Speaker 1: love witch. And then we see another witchy ceremony where

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Speaker 1: Elaine tells Barbara that she broke things off with Richard

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Speaker 1: and so she's now back in the dating pool, and

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Speaker 1: she does like that classic thing where she's like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: things didn't work out, Like every time someone definitely dies,

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Speaker 1: she's like, I don't know what happened. I guess it's

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Speaker 1: just didn't work out. I was like, wow, been there,

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Speaker 1: That's why I identified worth about yeah. Um. So then

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Speaker 1: Sergeant Griff continues to investigate. He speaks to a professor

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Speaker 1: who specializes in the occult and then he speaks to

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Speaker 1: the owner of this witchy apothecary type store and she

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Speaker 1: tells Griff about Elaine. So he pays Elaine a visit

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Speaker 1: to ask her some questions about what might be a homicide,

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Speaker 1: and he's like, are you a witch? And she's like yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm like okay, she's honest. And then he's like, do

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Speaker 1: you know Wayne Peters And she's like nah, and we're

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Speaker 1: like just kidding, but then he gets all like wooed

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Speaker 1: by her and she's like, we're meant to be together,

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Speaker 1: and then they start dating and he takes her horseback riding,

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Speaker 1: and while their horseback riding, they happened upon a Renaissance

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Speaker 1: fair where they're kind of like ca noodling and they

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Speaker 1: do this like long scene at the lone really long

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Speaker 1: scene at the Renaissance fair, and it's like, once again,

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Speaker 1: it's like, on my first watch of this movie, I

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Speaker 1: wasn't aware that the director had made every single piece,

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Speaker 1: And I'm like, I guess if I had made all

423
00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:40,399
Speaker 1: of those Renaissance clothes, I would have made that scene

424
00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:43,040
Speaker 1: last longer too. But that's also why I would hire

425
00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:45,520
Speaker 1: a costume designers so I would be less precious about

426
00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:50,000
Speaker 1: about it. That scene was really long. Yeah, she spent

427
00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:52,400
Speaker 1: a year on the costumes for that scene. A loan

428
00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:55,760
Speaker 1: I can't, but I mean, they were gorgeous. But I

429
00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:57,960
Speaker 1: was like, wow, we sure are spending a lot of

430
00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:01,840
Speaker 1: time here. But then in retrospects, second viewing, I was like, Okay,

431
00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:04,800
Speaker 1: I get it, I understand. I will say that this

432
00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:08,359
Speaker 1: scene did traumatize me a bit because a renaissance fair

433
00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:12,040
Speaker 1: is where I had my sledge attack, and so it

434
00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:16,000
Speaker 1: really brought back some some bad memory you know, if

435
00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:20,439
Speaker 1: you know, you know? Um? Okay. Anyway, so they go

436
00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:24,600
Speaker 1: to this ren fair and they have this kind of

437
00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:29,240
Speaker 1: like fake marriage ceremony, and then we hear Griff's voice

438
00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:33,280
Speaker 1: over about how love makes a man soft and how

439
00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:37,359
Speaker 1: an ideal woman doesn't exist. But it also seems like

440
00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:39,320
Speaker 1: he's falling in love with her. I do not think

441
00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:42,560
Speaker 1: he is. She has like fed him any potion, but

442
00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:45,160
Speaker 1: he is like smitten with her, to the point where

443
00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:49,520
Speaker 1: he refuses to investigate Wayne's death any further because he

444
00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:53,840
Speaker 1: no longer suspects Elaine of killing him. She's to his

445
00:27:53,920 --> 00:28:01,280
Speaker 1: girlfriend to be guilty. Then Trish discus over's her husband

446
00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:05,879
Speaker 1: Richard dead, having died by suicide. Then we cut to

447
00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:10,200
Speaker 1: a scene where Trish and Elaine have tea again and

448
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:13,080
Speaker 1: Trish talks about how she blames herself for Richard's death

449
00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:17,119
Speaker 1: and how she suspects Richard was having an affair she

450
00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:20,639
Speaker 1: doesn't know with whom, but she wants to kill whoever

451
00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:25,040
Speaker 1: it was with. Then Trish discovers that it was Elaine

452
00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:30,000
Speaker 1: who had the affair with Richard, and Elaine comes home,

453
00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:34,080
Speaker 1: Trish is there, and then they fight at she's there

454
00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:39,200
Speaker 1: wearing a we like looking like late, I feel like that.

455
00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:43,280
Speaker 1: We gotta mention that. Yeah, I really did enjoy that part.

456
00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:47,680
Speaker 1: It's like, what is this like single white female, like

457
00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:51,400
Speaker 1: little road we're pulling up on. But I was like,

458
00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:53,560
Speaker 1: all right, let's see where this goes. And it kind

459
00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:56,640
Speaker 1: of didn't go anywhere, but whatever. It's fun to watch

460
00:28:56,800 --> 00:28:59,680
Speaker 1: because then Trish there's like a dagger involved, but no

461
00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:03,120
Speaker 1: one gets injured. And then Trish just like runs out

462
00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:06,480
Speaker 1: and then goes to the police um and like gives

463
00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:11,560
Speaker 1: Griff even more evidence. And then Elaine and Griff meet

464
00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:16,280
Speaker 1: up at the Burlesque Club and he's like, hey, Elaine,

465
00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:20,560
Speaker 1: the DNA testing came back and it's your DNA and

466
00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:26,040
Speaker 1: she's like, so, She's like, I didn't kill anyone. They

467
00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:28,840
Speaker 1: died because they were so in love with me and

468
00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:32,640
Speaker 1: he's like, um, you're still under arrest. And then all

469
00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:37,200
Speaker 1: the patrons at this burlesque club attack her and they're like,

470
00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:40,760
Speaker 1: burn the witch, Burn the witch. Griff helps her get away.

471
00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:44,680
Speaker 1: Then they're back at her place and she's like, Griff,

472
00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:47,520
Speaker 1: everything's going to be okay. I love you so much,

473
00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:50,520
Speaker 1: and then she tries to give him a love potion

474
00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:56,400
Speaker 1: but he tosses it aside, so she stabs him to

475
00:29:56,520 --> 00:30:02,880
Speaker 1: death in the chest. Lived happily ever after. The one

476
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:04,760
Speaker 1: thing that killed and I were like, oh, she killed

477
00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:06,760
Speaker 1: the cop at the end, because there was so much

478
00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:08,400
Speaker 1: of this and I'm like, oh, this is playing out

479
00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:13,400
Speaker 1: like Lana del Ray's life. I hate it. But she

480
00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:15,680
Speaker 1: does kill the cops. She does kill the cop a

481
00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:19,400
Speaker 1: dand but then she has a fantasy about them getting

482
00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:22,560
Speaker 1: married and riding away together on a white horse, just

483
00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:26,640
Speaker 1: the way she described her like fantasy fairy tale. So

484
00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:29,520
Speaker 1: that is the story. Let's take a quick break and

485
00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:39,160
Speaker 1: then we'll come right back to discuss and we're back

486
00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:43,280
Speaker 1: so okay. So that where I wanted to start with with.

487
00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:46,280
Speaker 1: I want to kind of like get the bigger criticisms

488
00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:48,800
Speaker 1: out of the way so we can jump into like

489
00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:53,320
Speaker 1: movie discussion. So one of the things that really jumped

490
00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:56,240
Speaker 1: out to me about just like the premise of this

491
00:30:56,400 --> 00:31:00,400
Speaker 1: movie without even getting into what is really actually happening,

492
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:04,000
Speaker 1: is getting into just like white Girl, which culture which

493
00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:07,400
Speaker 1: I feel like has always been a thing, but has

494
00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:09,920
Speaker 1: been kind of steadily on the rise in the past,

495
00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:12,440
Speaker 1: I want to say, like five to ten years, and

496
00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:15,760
Speaker 1: if it feels like something that this movie is very

497
00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:21,360
Speaker 1: much interacting with, and I feel like it's not. I know, Caitling,

498
00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:23,200
Speaker 1: you you have some stuff on this as well. It's

499
00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:26,200
Speaker 1: it's not something that you know, it's really within our

500
00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:30,280
Speaker 1: purview to completely unpack in the space of an episode,

501
00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:33,680
Speaker 1: But I just wanted to sort of acknowledge it because

502
00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:35,480
Speaker 1: it is so I mean, if I feel like it.

503
00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:40,680
Speaker 1: It follows so many kind of frustrating and unfortunate media

504
00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:45,240
Speaker 1: trends that are essentially white women co opting black and

505
00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:50,600
Speaker 1: indigenous culture in order to center themselves in narratives or

506
00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:54,320
Speaker 1: cultural practices or or whatever it is. Um and it

507
00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:59,760
Speaker 1: feels like, especially in particular, like the idea of Witchcraft,

508
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:03,840
Speaker 1: most of the famous quote unquote like which is in

509
00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:08,880
Speaker 1: popular media are white ladies. And I wanted to shout

510
00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:11,160
Speaker 1: out one essay in particular that I thought was like

511
00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:15,959
Speaker 1: just so incredibly good. Well, we'll link it in the description. Um.

512
00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:20,320
Speaker 1: It's by a Navajo writer named Leu Cornum in The

513
00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:25,800
Speaker 1: New Inquiry, and it's called White Magic. That interestingly, uh,

514
00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:29,480
Speaker 1: their thesis kind of centers around another another movie we've

515
00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:34,880
Speaker 1: covered on this show, and so it's not in conversation

516
00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:37,320
Speaker 1: with The Love Which directly because I do think that

517
00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:40,760
Speaker 1: The Love Which is so campy that it kind of

518
00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:45,880
Speaker 1: manages to skirt some of this conversation, whereas the Vivich

519
00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:51,280
Speaker 1: is taking itself very seriously, so that the criticism feels like, Okay,

520
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:54,120
Speaker 1: we really have to tell what is the name of

521
00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:57,520
Speaker 1: that director again? Who's like I went to the library?

522
00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:01,680
Speaker 1: Is it Robert Egger's Is that? Am I getting that right? Yeah?

523
00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:03,800
Speaker 1: I always want to say Robert Evans, but like that's

524
00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:07,440
Speaker 1: just my friend, Like that's not That's not who made

525
00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:12,120
Speaker 1: the Vivic at all. Yeah, Robert Eggers. And then he

526
00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:14,720
Speaker 1: has that iconic quote that was like I went to

527
00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:18,840
Speaker 1: the library, like and that was how he learned about

528
00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:22,240
Speaker 1: women and indigenous culture, and it's like, why did you

529
00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:26,640
Speaker 1: make this movie? Anyways? Luke Horner wrote this really good

530
00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:30,800
Speaker 1: essay that discusses the Vivich and also discusses other really

531
00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:34,720
Speaker 1: popular movies that have come out that center around white

532
00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:38,440
Speaker 1: women as witches. So think, I mean a lot of

533
00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:41,160
Speaker 1: movies we've covered on the show, Think the Craft, Think

534
00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:46,440
Speaker 1: Practical Magic, like Pincus, Pocus, pocus Pocus. Yes, like these

535
00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:50,000
Speaker 1: are all name checked in in the essay, But essentially

536
00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:53,120
Speaker 1: I mean, I I would really recommend that listeners read.

537
00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:55,320
Speaker 1: It's kind of a long essay, so you should also

538
00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:58,040
Speaker 1: read it for yourself. I want to quote a little

539
00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:00,640
Speaker 1: bit of it. But they're making the argum meant that

540
00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:06,200
Speaker 1: while it's not untrue that white women have practiced witchcraft

541
00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:09,640
Speaker 1: for a long time, no one saying that that isn't true. However,

542
00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:13,960
Speaker 1: it is often at the expense of, or the erasure

543
00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:19,240
Speaker 1: of black or Indigenous people. So I'm going to quote

544
00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:22,680
Speaker 1: a little bit here. They talk a lot about the

545
00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:26,440
Speaker 1: Salem witch trials, which is again a true event that

546
00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:30,280
Speaker 1: happened that specifically centers white women in the historical retelling

547
00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:33,200
Speaker 1: of it, even though there are many black and Indigenous

548
00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:37,000
Speaker 1: women who are affected by witch trials. So okay, Luke

549
00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:40,759
Speaker 1: Horton says, quote actual witch hunts of the past, such

550
00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:43,200
Speaker 1: as the Salem witch trials, followed from a fear of

551
00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:46,759
Speaker 1: Indigenous women and their role in forms of governance alternative

552
00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:50,000
Speaker 1: to those of the Foundling country, along with genocidal tactics

553
00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:53,279
Speaker 1: of sexual violence. Early settlers also worked through their fear

554
00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:58,080
Speaker 1: by projecting it elsewhere, the hyper visibility and necessarily spectacular

555
00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:01,680
Speaker 1: aspects of which trials a white women were an arena

556
00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:05,320
Speaker 1: to handle physically and politically the threat of indigenous societies

557
00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:08,520
Speaker 1: where women were in power. Beyond the events at Salem

558
00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:12,239
Speaker 1: historical spectacle as formative to America as the Thanksgiving myth,

559
00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:16,319
Speaker 1: unruly women, be they Native, black, or white, have continuously

560
00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:19,680
Speaker 1: been post as savage and placed outside the enclosed boundaries

561
00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:23,400
Speaker 1: of civilization and nation, and a move towards symbolic enclosure.

562
00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:27,160
Speaker 1: Both witches and Indigenous women have been reduced to accessorized

563
00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:30,760
Speaker 1: signifiers hawked by urban outfitters or Forever twenty one available

564
00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:33,560
Speaker 1: for the care free to adorn themselves with at Coachella

565
00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:36,800
Speaker 1: and express their pagan predilections for living ever so briefly

566
00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:42,720
Speaker 1: outside time unquote. So essentially, the argument that Luke Arnum

567
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:47,359
Speaker 1: is very effectively making here is that it's just yet

568
00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:51,480
Speaker 1: another example of centering white women where the issue is

569
00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:57,480
Speaker 1: much much larger, and it is in some ways, uh

570
00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:00,440
Speaker 1: costume that white women can very easily take on and

571
00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:05,160
Speaker 1: off in almost like a cosplay kind of way, where

572
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:10,759
Speaker 1: when black and Indigenous women engage with um with, I

573
00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:14,000
Speaker 1: guess it's like I don't even have the correct language

574
00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:18,200
Speaker 1: for it, but witchy shit, Um, it is not as

575
00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:22,360
Speaker 1: easily separated taken on taken off, and the consequences are

576
00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:25,800
Speaker 1: are more severe and pervasive. So I just wanted to

577
00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:28,480
Speaker 1: touch on that because we haven't talked about that in

578
00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:31,160
Speaker 1: a while, and I think we covered we covered the

579
00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:33,640
Speaker 1: craft so long ago that I feel like we we

580
00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:39,319
Speaker 1: didn't even really fully understand that stuff at the time. Totally. Yeah,

581
00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:41,279
Speaker 1: that was kind of before we were getting we were

582
00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:45,360
Speaker 1: doing like deep dives into context and things like that.

583
00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:56,640
Speaker 1: So um, but look at us having grown our old geniuses. Um, yes,

584
00:36:56,760 --> 00:37:00,320
Speaker 1: thank you for for doing the research and for sharing that,

585
00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:04,160
Speaker 1: and yes we'll definitely link that article. Um, some of

586
00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:07,759
Speaker 1: the context that I did but didn't get very far

587
00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:13,399
Speaker 1: into because it's a book and we famously famously don't right.

588
00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:17,520
Speaker 1: I tried my very hardest. Wow, in Unison, we killed

589
00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:24,200
Speaker 1: it Um. The book is entitled, which is Sluts Feminists

590
00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:29,000
Speaker 1: by Kristen J. Sol it Is, And again I did

591
00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:32,359
Speaker 1: not get very far into it, um, but I would

592
00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:35,359
Speaker 1: recommend it nonetheless because it seems like it's very cool

593
00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:39,839
Speaker 1: and well researched and has a thesis statement that very

594
00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:44,160
Speaker 1: closely aligns with the ideology that we promote on this show.

595
00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:50,000
Speaker 1: But it's basically about how the sexuality and sexual liberation

596
00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:56,040
Speaker 1: of women and fems has historically been feared and demonized,

597
00:37:56,600 --> 00:38:00,360
Speaker 1: and that fear has been used to justify condemning women,

598
00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:04,680
Speaker 1: accusing them of witchcraft and like accusing them of being

599
00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:09,640
Speaker 1: demonically possessed, burning them at the stake, all that stuff

600
00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:13,640
Speaker 1: from history, and then how that fear and condemnation has

601
00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:17,240
Speaker 1: never gone away but has evolved over the years into

602
00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:21,520
Speaker 1: what we recognize today as modern day slut shaming, UM

603
00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:25,800
Speaker 1: shaming of sex works, shaming of queerness. So that's what

604
00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:28,920
Speaker 1: the book is about. UM. I plan to read it

605
00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:32,080
Speaker 1: more one day when I have time to read a book,

606
00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:35,600
Speaker 1: one day when we're back to the book reading. But

607
00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:39,919
Speaker 1: but I feel like this movie is trying to say

608
00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:43,839
Speaker 1: a lot of what this book says. I would argue

609
00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:48,319
Speaker 1: more effectively. And this book is also way more inclusive

610
00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:51,120
Speaker 1: and its approach to that because we'll talk about how

611
00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:56,960
Speaker 1: this movie is very white, very heteronormative, very gender normative,

612
00:38:57,320 --> 00:39:01,600
Speaker 1: very body normative, like the list was on, and maybe

613
00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:05,840
Speaker 1: that'll bring us into the discussion about like what this

614
00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:09,080
Speaker 1: movie is trying to say. Um, but I feel like

615
00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:14,960
Speaker 1: hitting the trying really hard. But yeah, I recommend the

616
00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:17,879
Speaker 1: book for anyone who wants to check it out. I'll

617
00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:20,719
Speaker 1: check it out. Yeah, okay, so yeah, let's let's get

618
00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:23,200
Speaker 1: into the Let's get into the movie. Um, so, this

619
00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:29,600
Speaker 1: movie is definitely talking a lot about patriarchy, is talking

620
00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:32,400
Speaker 1: I feel like it. It presents a lot of I

621
00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:35,200
Speaker 1: don't know some of the moments, and it is absolutely

622
00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:40,520
Speaker 1: we'll get into how gender and heteronormative the approach is,

623
00:39:40,760 --> 00:39:43,759
Speaker 1: and and how the characters are. There were some conversations

624
00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:49,160
Speaker 1: so that I enjoyed watching characters go back and forth

625
00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:52,920
Speaker 1: about like I thought, all of the conversations, even though

626
00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:58,840
Speaker 1: they're not, you know, test friendly, but the conversation between

627
00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:01,960
Speaker 1: Elaine and Trish on both sides of the movie, I

628
00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:07,480
Speaker 1: thought were really interesting and just presenting different approaches to

629
00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:14,840
Speaker 1: dealing with patriarchy. Sure, yeah, I mean for me, I

630
00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:17,800
Speaker 1: mean I think there's an argument to be made that

631
00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:24,680
Speaker 1: this movie is about a woman who reclaims her power

632
00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:30,520
Speaker 1: and becomes sexually liberated by way of being a witch

633
00:40:30,719 --> 00:40:36,360
Speaker 1: and by way of murdering men, which is funny, but

634
00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:40,319
Speaker 1: it is very funny. I don't hate that. Now it's

635
00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:44,320
Speaker 1: fun again. For me, it's just like the execution, it

636
00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:46,680
Speaker 1: just didn't feel very effective to me. I feel like

637
00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:49,719
Speaker 1: the movie is setting her up for a character arc

638
00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:53,360
Speaker 1: that never happens. What did you think was going to happen?

639
00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:55,680
Speaker 1: I'm so curious. I thought that she was going to

640
00:40:55,800 --> 00:40:58,080
Speaker 1: start out. So she starts out being very much like

641
00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:02,320
Speaker 1: So the conversation she has with Trish at the very beginning,

642
00:41:02,440 --> 00:41:05,080
Speaker 1: I like transcribed it because I was just like, what

643
00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:10,120
Speaker 1: is happening here? Okay? So she's you know, she's all like,

644
00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:13,959
Speaker 1: you know, we may be grown women, but underneath, we're

645
00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:16,520
Speaker 1: dreaming about being carried off by a prince on a

646
00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:19,240
Speaker 1: white horse. And then she's like, men are like children.

647
00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:21,640
Speaker 1: They're very easy to please as long as we give

648
00:41:21,680 --> 00:41:24,719
Speaker 1: them what they want. And what men want is a

649
00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:26,960
Speaker 1: pretty woman to love and to take care of them

650
00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:29,040
Speaker 1: and to make them feel like a man and to

651
00:41:29,120 --> 00:41:32,239
Speaker 1: give them total freedom and whatever they want to do

652
00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:35,280
Speaker 1: or be. And then Trish is like, well, what about

653
00:41:35,520 --> 00:41:37,960
Speaker 1: what we want? What like, how are we going to

654
00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:42,160
Speaker 1: be equals if we keep catering to men and like

655
00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:44,880
Speaker 1: all of their needs. And I'm like, yeah, good point, Trish.

656
00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:47,600
Speaker 1: And Elene is like, if you want love, you have

657
00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:50,320
Speaker 1: to give love. Giving men sex is a way of

658
00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:53,480
Speaker 1: unlocking their love potential. And then this is when Trish

659
00:41:53,600 --> 00:41:55,960
Speaker 1: is like, sounds like you've been brainwashed. Elene, sounds like

660
00:41:56,000 --> 00:41:59,719
Speaker 1: a bad self help book at many points, like and

661
00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:03,360
Speaker 1: nineteen eighties self help Look for Women written by a

662
00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:06,720
Speaker 1: man exactly, That's exactly. And then this is when Trish

663
00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:09,600
Speaker 1: is like, it sounds like you've been brainwashed by the patriarchy.

664
00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:12,759
Speaker 1: Your whole self worth is wrapped up and pleasing a man.

665
00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:16,000
Speaker 1: So at the beginning, like at the beginning here, Elaine

666
00:42:16,040 --> 00:42:19,920
Speaker 1: has these very regressive ideas about like catering to men's needs,

667
00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:22,000
Speaker 1: and then Trish calls her out on it, and so

668
00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:24,680
Speaker 1: that's why I'm like, oh, there's this, you know, maybe

669
00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:27,680
Speaker 1: Trish is going to kind of help her see her

670
00:42:27,760 --> 00:42:32,280
Speaker 1: worth outside of how men value her and all this stuff.

671
00:42:32,320 --> 00:42:34,959
Speaker 1: And you could argue that that maybe happens again because

672
00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:38,319
Speaker 1: she just keeps killing men, but to me, it felt

673
00:42:38,360 --> 00:42:42,720
Speaker 1: like the voice of reason character Trish leaves the story

674
00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:45,960
Speaker 1: and it is absent from it for most of the time,

675
00:42:46,120 --> 00:42:48,000
Speaker 1: and then when she does show up again towards the end,

676
00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:52,560
Speaker 1: she's like, oh, maybe you were right, Elaine, maybe you

677
00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:56,279
Speaker 1: should give a man his fantasy and cater to his

678
00:42:57,040 --> 00:43:00,440
Speaker 1: desires and all that stuff, and I'm just like, huh.

679
00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:06,839
Speaker 1: I felt like, okay, So, like I I'm going through

680
00:43:06,920 --> 00:43:10,160
Speaker 1: an extremely heterosexual breakup right now. So I was sort

681
00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:13,560
Speaker 1: of just like, I mean, I don't mean to laugh

682
00:43:13,600 --> 00:43:16,319
Speaker 1: at that, but the way you framed it was sorry,

683
00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:19,239
Speaker 1: I framed it like it was an extremely goofy movie. Um,

684
00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:25,319
Speaker 1: and that's on me. I'm realizing why it is funny.

685
00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:29,400
Speaker 1: But I don't know, like there were I agree with

686
00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:35,560
Speaker 1: these structurally that where Trish lands isn't satisfying. And maybe

687
00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:39,920
Speaker 1: I'm giving the director too much credit here, but I

688
00:43:40,160 --> 00:43:44,520
Speaker 1: felt like Anna Biller is such an outspoken feminist that

689
00:43:44,719 --> 00:43:47,000
Speaker 1: she has to be aware of what she's doing there.

690
00:43:47,080 --> 00:43:48,719
Speaker 1: And it's kind of a matter for us of whether

691
00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:50,880
Speaker 1: we agree with that approach or not, because it's like

692
00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:53,840
Speaker 1: because because I feel like, if you know, if this

693
00:43:54,160 --> 00:43:56,719
Speaker 1: was actually a movie from the seventies that would have

694
00:43:57,000 --> 00:44:00,920
Speaker 1: most likely been written and directed by men, if a

695
00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:04,120
Speaker 1: conversation like that happened, there's no four D chest going on,

696
00:44:04,640 --> 00:44:07,799
Speaker 1: Like it's not like like that's just literally what they think.

697
00:44:08,719 --> 00:44:12,719
Speaker 1: But Annabeller's body of work very much indicates that that's

698
00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:15,080
Speaker 1: not what she thinks, and interviews that she did around

699
00:44:15,120 --> 00:44:17,440
Speaker 1: this movie indicate that it's not what she thinks. And

700
00:44:17,560 --> 00:44:21,520
Speaker 1: so where I was sometimes hitting a wall, but like

701
00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:23,920
Speaker 1: where where I kind of landed on was like, I

702
00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:26,280
Speaker 1: don't know, I'm curious what you think about this as well, Allissa,

703
00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:31,240
Speaker 1: of clearly there's a lot of dissonance in a Lane's

704
00:44:31,960 --> 00:44:36,320
Speaker 1: mind about men, because I feel like she's almost trying

705
00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:40,120
Speaker 1: to present this fantasy so hard, and it's not like

706
00:44:40,239 --> 00:44:43,160
Speaker 1: she's really presented to us as like an aspirational character,

707
00:44:43,320 --> 00:44:48,160
Speaker 1: like she's like whatever, but she's trying to present this

708
00:44:48,480 --> 00:44:51,520
Speaker 1: fantasy so hard in a way that is clearly so

709
00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:56,080
Speaker 1: psychologically destructive to her that she like kills the people

710
00:44:56,440 --> 00:44:59,040
Speaker 1: that she's working so hard to bring this fantasy to.

711
00:45:00,040 --> 00:45:02,759
Speaker 1: And on Trish is and I felt like Trish like

712
00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:05,440
Speaker 1: I was also bummed out that Trish ended by being like,

713
00:45:05,800 --> 00:45:08,839
Speaker 1: maybe I was wrong, Maybe I shouldn't have like had

714
00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:13,080
Speaker 1: thoughts about like my own agency and independence, And it

715
00:45:13,320 --> 00:45:15,480
Speaker 1: felt to be like Annabella kind of left it in

716
00:45:15,560 --> 00:45:19,440
Speaker 1: this place where it was like fighting the patriarchy is

717
00:45:19,560 --> 00:45:24,200
Speaker 1: really hard and doesn't always like work, which is so

718
00:45:24,400 --> 00:45:28,000
Speaker 1: depressing and like not really the message I'm seeking in

719
00:45:28,040 --> 00:45:31,680
Speaker 1: a movie. This is why I think it's so clever. Okay, yeah,

720
00:45:31,719 --> 00:45:35,360
Speaker 1: please please, you didn't hit it hit us because Annabella

721
00:45:35,480 --> 00:45:38,719
Speaker 1: is a feminist and she is aware of what she's doing,

722
00:45:38,840 --> 00:45:41,760
Speaker 1: and I think the conversations between Elaine and Trish clearly

723
00:45:41,880 --> 00:45:45,319
Speaker 1: show that, because like when Elaine is talking cuckoo, then

724
00:45:45,560 --> 00:45:48,560
Speaker 1: Trish is literally yeah the voice of reason, being like, um, hello,

725
00:45:48,880 --> 00:45:52,480
Speaker 1: here's reality, what are you talking about? But Elaine is

726
00:45:52,560 --> 00:45:57,520
Speaker 1: such a surreal and otherworldly character, and I put her

727
00:45:57,560 --> 00:46:02,520
Speaker 1: solidly in the good for her universe, like she wanted

728
00:46:02,680 --> 00:46:08,600
Speaker 1: love and she took it and she whatever, but I did.

729
00:46:08,680 --> 00:46:10,760
Speaker 1: I did also want to mention that Annabular was reading

730
00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:12,800
Speaker 1: a bunch of self help books and that was what

731
00:46:12,920 --> 00:46:15,440
Speaker 1: inspired her to write the movie, and the character was

732
00:46:15,520 --> 00:46:18,680
Speaker 1: like echoing those and that's what I think is so

733
00:46:18,760 --> 00:46:21,239
Speaker 1: cool is that it like the look of it being

734
00:46:21,719 --> 00:46:24,839
Speaker 1: so solidly sixties and it feeling like a sixties movie,

735
00:46:24,960 --> 00:46:26,840
Speaker 1: Like you could look at a frame of it or

736
00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:29,520
Speaker 1: a scene of it and think it's from the sixties.

737
00:46:30,000 --> 00:46:33,480
Speaker 1: And I think that's what the juxtaposition of all of

738
00:46:33,560 --> 00:46:37,400
Speaker 1: these things playing together, Like I'm not explaining it right,

739
00:46:37,560 --> 00:46:41,239
Speaker 1: but no, I feel like it it adds up to

740
00:46:41,360 --> 00:46:44,000
Speaker 1: something that is very funny and very clever to me,

741
00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:46,720
Speaker 1: because I think she's pointing out so many things while

742
00:46:47,040 --> 00:46:51,520
Speaker 1: staying so true to the campy sixty horror genre and

743
00:46:52,360 --> 00:46:56,879
Speaker 1: saying a new feminist message. Like I see Trish's like, well,

744
00:46:57,040 --> 00:47:00,799
Speaker 1: I guess feminism didn't work out for me after all.

745
00:47:01,239 --> 00:47:03,080
Speaker 1: And she's kind of doing this robotics. It's like this

746
00:47:03,239 --> 00:47:05,719
Speaker 1: robotic like I don't know what to do, and she's

747
00:47:05,719 --> 00:47:08,040
Speaker 1: just kind of like it's like she's standing at a

748
00:47:08,120 --> 00:47:11,080
Speaker 1: wall and she's like walking into it and like she's

749
00:47:11,120 --> 00:47:14,239
Speaker 1: malfunctioning almost. It's like, well, I don't know what to

750
00:47:14,360 --> 00:47:17,320
Speaker 1: do now. It's like the Stepford Wives moment where she's like,

751
00:47:17,560 --> 00:47:20,200
Speaker 1: come have some coffee. Comes Well, It's like when she's

752
00:47:20,200 --> 00:47:22,719
Speaker 1: supposed to she's supposed to be the good wife. She's

753
00:47:22,719 --> 00:47:24,759
Speaker 1: supposed to be the one who has emotions and and

754
00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:28,600
Speaker 1: earned her husband or whatever, or like, has her own

755
00:47:28,880 --> 00:47:31,400
Speaker 1: agency and feelings and blah blah blah. But then as

756
00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:35,040
Speaker 1: soon as she's without her husband, she's like, what what

757
00:47:35,280 --> 00:47:41,120
Speaker 1: do I like? That makes sense to me? I found okay.

758
00:47:41,200 --> 00:47:46,080
Speaker 1: So Annabeller has an interview about this movie posted on

759
00:47:46,200 --> 00:47:52,440
Speaker 1: her website that I found very clarifying in I don't know.

760
00:47:52,520 --> 00:47:54,400
Speaker 1: I had a lot of questions, especially when I was

761
00:47:54,440 --> 00:47:56,520
Speaker 1: leaving my first viewing of this movie, which I went

762
00:47:56,560 --> 00:48:00,520
Speaker 1: into completely cold, and then was like, hold on, who

763
00:48:00,680 --> 00:48:03,799
Speaker 1: is who made this movie? Because it makes it makes

764
00:48:03,920 --> 00:48:08,080
Speaker 1: all the difference. And speaking to your point, Elissa, yeah,

765
00:48:08,080 --> 00:48:12,000
Speaker 1: I I I found her perspectively helpful in wrapping my

766
00:48:12,120 --> 00:48:15,960
Speaker 1: head around like what she's trying to do. So the question,

767
00:48:16,040 --> 00:48:18,440
Speaker 1: I also am not clear on who's asking these questions.

768
00:48:18,520 --> 00:48:22,720
Speaker 1: It might be her asking frequently asked questions to herself unclear,

769
00:48:23,120 --> 00:48:26,080
Speaker 1: but on her. So the question is which character should

770
00:48:26,080 --> 00:48:31,319
Speaker 1: be identify with Elaine or Trish? Annabella replies, quote, our

771
00:48:31,400 --> 00:48:34,600
Speaker 1: identification flips depending on the scene. I'm trying to talk

772
00:48:34,640 --> 00:48:36,480
Speaker 1: about how difficult it is to be a woman in

773
00:48:36,560 --> 00:48:39,360
Speaker 1: today's culture and how all of the options for creating

774
00:48:39,400 --> 00:48:42,840
Speaker 1: an identity are problematic. For instance, Trish is comfortable with

775
00:48:42,880 --> 00:48:45,480
Speaker 1: herself and happily married, and Elaine feels she has to

776
00:48:45,560 --> 00:48:48,160
Speaker 1: tie herself in knots to please a man. So Trish

777
00:48:48,320 --> 00:48:51,400
Speaker 1: is the quote unquote normal one and Elaine is desperate

778
00:48:51,440 --> 00:48:54,000
Speaker 1: and has self esteem issues. But in the end, Elaine

779
00:48:54,120 --> 00:48:56,840
Speaker 1: uses her fantasy doll tactics to steal Trish's husband and

780
00:48:56,960 --> 00:49:00,200
Speaker 1: destroy him, and Trish is left widowed and broken. When

781
00:49:00,239 --> 00:49:02,680
Speaker 1: we see what Elaine has done to Trish, we hate

782
00:49:02,680 --> 00:49:05,799
Speaker 1: Elaine and identify with Trish. But at other moments, as

783
00:49:05,880 --> 00:49:08,120
Speaker 1: when Elaine is flashing back to her abuse by men,

784
00:49:08,640 --> 00:49:12,400
Speaker 1: we identify with Elaine. I tried to create a Junkian

785
00:49:12,520 --> 00:49:17,720
Speaker 1: animus for Elaine. First of all, Okay, you've read a book. Okay,

786
00:49:18,320 --> 00:49:21,040
Speaker 1: she went to the library. Who are you, Robert Eggers?

787
00:49:22,320 --> 00:49:25,399
Speaker 1: Robert Eggers went to the library. If we never made

788
00:49:25,440 --> 00:49:29,560
Speaker 1: that t shirt? Um, I tried to I think it's

789
00:49:29,920 --> 00:49:33,040
Speaker 1: I've never said Carl. Is it Carl Young? I think

790
00:49:33,239 --> 00:49:38,000
Speaker 1: Young the psychologist? Right? Yes, Okay, I tried to create

791
00:49:38,080 --> 00:49:40,880
Speaker 1: I'm continuing her. I tried to create a young Gian

792
00:49:41,040 --> 00:49:44,800
Speaker 1: animus for Elane, a group of judging, manipulating male characters

793
00:49:44,880 --> 00:49:47,000
Speaker 1: that she hears in her head or paints in her paintings.

794
00:49:47,320 --> 00:49:49,560
Speaker 1: It's in her attempts to escape this animus that she

795
00:49:49,719 --> 00:49:52,600
Speaker 1: becomes dangerous to herself and to others. It will be

796
00:49:52,719 --> 00:49:56,000
Speaker 1: interesting to see how many women will relate to this unquote.

797
00:49:56,800 --> 00:50:01,520
Speaker 1: So I get it, Like, that's that totally makes sense

798
00:50:01,600 --> 00:50:05,800
Speaker 1: to me of of like different perspectives on trying to

799
00:50:06,719 --> 00:50:12,160
Speaker 1: navigate patriarchy, navigate abusive relationships, because that is a lot

800
00:50:12,320 --> 00:50:16,400
Speaker 1: of what Elaine is actively processing throughout the movie is

801
00:50:16,520 --> 00:50:20,640
Speaker 1: like trauma inflicted on her by men from her past.

802
00:50:20,800 --> 00:50:23,080
Speaker 1: Whether it's I think that you like hear the echoes

803
00:50:23,160 --> 00:50:26,080
Speaker 1: of her father at one point, you hear certainly a

804
00:50:26,160 --> 00:50:29,200
Speaker 1: lot from her ex husband. She talks about it with

805
00:50:29,280 --> 00:50:34,320
Speaker 1: other characters. It's clearly like a big defining trauma that

806
00:50:34,480 --> 00:50:38,520
Speaker 1: like informs all of her behavior. So yeah, I mean,

807
00:50:38,920 --> 00:50:42,719
Speaker 1: I I'm having this thought in real time, so bear

808
00:50:42,760 --> 00:50:47,200
Speaker 1: with me here. But I feel like something this movie,

809
00:50:47,680 --> 00:50:52,440
Speaker 1: especially upon hearing that quote from Anna Biller, I feel

810
00:50:52,480 --> 00:50:56,920
Speaker 1: like part of what this movie is attempting to comment

811
00:50:57,040 --> 00:51:01,800
Speaker 1: on is something that we've kind of grappled with on

812
00:51:02,040 --> 00:51:06,759
Speaker 1: the podcast and even in my own personal life, this

813
00:51:07,360 --> 00:51:13,560
Speaker 1: navigating and reconciling as as a hetero woman. How how

814
00:51:13,640 --> 00:51:19,240
Speaker 1: do I reconcile being a militant feminist while also wanting

815
00:51:19,680 --> 00:51:25,040
Speaker 1: the hetero romantic companionship of a man. This is something

816
00:51:25,200 --> 00:51:30,400
Speaker 1: I have a conversation with myself about daily, and I

817
00:51:30,560 --> 00:51:34,880
Speaker 1: wonder if, like, that's part of what this movie is

818
00:51:35,200 --> 00:51:38,680
Speaker 1: dealing with, because we have Elaine, who is very emblematic

819
00:51:38,920 --> 00:51:44,760
Speaker 1: of this like old school sixties era and earlier ideology

820
00:51:44,920 --> 00:51:48,279
Speaker 1: of like, well, a woman exists to please a man,

821
00:51:48,480 --> 00:51:52,800
Speaker 1: to cater to his every whim, to be sexual, not

822
00:51:52,960 --> 00:51:55,960
Speaker 1: because you want to be sexual or explore yourself sexually,

823
00:51:56,239 --> 00:51:59,480
Speaker 1: but to sexually please a man. You know, all all

824
00:51:59,560 --> 00:52:03,080
Speaker 1: of this stuff that for all of history had been

825
00:52:03,680 --> 00:52:08,799
Speaker 1: what was expected of women by the patriarchy. And then

826
00:52:08,880 --> 00:52:13,480
Speaker 1: you have a character like Trish who is saying, like, no,

827
00:52:14,880 --> 00:52:19,719
Speaker 1: this is sixteen or the sixties. We don't know what

828
00:52:20,000 --> 00:52:23,120
Speaker 1: the decade it is that we're in, but we don't

829
00:52:23,200 --> 00:52:26,640
Speaker 1: think like that anymore. You're you've been brainwashed, like life

830
00:52:26,760 --> 00:52:32,000
Speaker 1: isn't a fairy tale, Husbands aren't Prince Charming's like get

831
00:52:32,080 --> 00:52:36,440
Speaker 1: with the program, So you have these like conflicting things

832
00:52:36,880 --> 00:52:41,239
Speaker 1: that and again I don't know what even point I'm

833
00:52:41,280 --> 00:52:47,840
Speaker 1: trying to arrive at here, but no, I I totally Again,

834
00:52:47,960 --> 00:52:50,560
Speaker 1: this is like watching this movie and at a very

835
00:52:50,600 --> 00:52:55,520
Speaker 1: interesting time for me personally. It's like, yeah, I think

836
00:52:55,520 --> 00:52:59,600
Speaker 1: that that's something that a lot of tragically straight with

837
00:52:59,760 --> 00:53:04,560
Speaker 1: it are grappling with, you know, is is And and

838
00:53:04,719 --> 00:53:07,840
Speaker 1: also like I think that that exists, you know, across

839
00:53:08,000 --> 00:53:10,560
Speaker 1: the spectrum of sexuality of like, well, I want to

840
00:53:10,640 --> 00:53:13,960
Speaker 1: be empowered, I want to be independent as a person.

841
00:53:14,840 --> 00:53:18,400
Speaker 1: Why am I still feeling like I want a partner?

842
00:53:18,480 --> 00:53:20,880
Speaker 1: But it's like that's part of and not everybody feels

843
00:53:20,920 --> 00:53:23,040
Speaker 1: that way. I'm not trying to over generalize, but but

844
00:53:23,160 --> 00:53:25,040
Speaker 1: it's like that's such a part of being human. And

845
00:53:25,719 --> 00:53:27,920
Speaker 1: the more I watched it, the more I engaged with

846
00:53:28,640 --> 00:53:32,239
Speaker 1: Anna Biller's commentary on like what she was trying to do.

847
00:53:32,600 --> 00:53:36,520
Speaker 1: I thought it was like kind of a really brave

848
00:53:36,840 --> 00:53:39,080
Speaker 1: thing to do in some ways. Again, it's like the

849
00:53:39,200 --> 00:53:42,520
Speaker 1: whole it's a very white cast, and Anna Biller is

850
00:53:42,719 --> 00:53:47,120
Speaker 1: is um half Japanese, half white, but the cast itself

851
00:53:47,280 --> 00:53:50,200
Speaker 1: is extremely white. I feel like this is you could

852
00:53:50,320 --> 00:53:54,320
Speaker 1: argue that it because it's interacting with sixties and seventies

853
00:53:54,400 --> 00:53:59,240
Speaker 1: B movies, it's extremely heteronormative and binary as it pertains

854
00:53:59,280 --> 00:54:02,280
Speaker 1: to gender. But I also feel like, like what you're describing,

855
00:54:02,320 --> 00:54:05,200
Speaker 1: it feels like almost like a feminist elephant in the

856
00:54:05,360 --> 00:54:09,840
Speaker 1: room for some people, where there's so many beliefs that

857
00:54:10,000 --> 00:54:13,880
Speaker 1: I hold very firmly that I cannot apply to my

858
00:54:14,000 --> 00:54:17,080
Speaker 1: own life to save my own life, Like you know,

859
00:54:17,280 --> 00:54:19,759
Speaker 1: I feel like, and this is maybe a reach, but

860
00:54:19,960 --> 00:54:22,800
Speaker 1: like I feel that way about like a lot of

861
00:54:22,920 --> 00:54:26,160
Speaker 1: body issues and a lot of like I'm an extremely

862
00:54:26,200 --> 00:54:30,600
Speaker 1: body positive person. I feel like I actively recognize how

863
00:54:30,760 --> 00:54:34,400
Speaker 1: our bodies are policed and mistreated and we're told to

864
00:54:34,440 --> 00:54:38,399
Speaker 1: look a certain way and I'm still anorexic. Like it's

865
00:54:38,480 --> 00:54:42,200
Speaker 1: so like it it is like such a personal journey

866
00:54:42,360 --> 00:54:45,719
Speaker 1: on you know, holding your beliefs and holding them very authentically,

867
00:54:45,800 --> 00:54:48,360
Speaker 1: which it seems like Annabillard does as well. And also

868
00:54:48,920 --> 00:54:50,680
Speaker 1: I don't know acknowledging through a piece of art that

869
00:54:50,760 --> 00:54:54,960
Speaker 1: it's like but yeah, when it's you like fucking good luck,

870
00:54:55,280 --> 00:54:59,480
Speaker 1: you know, it's yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't know, I

871
00:55:00,280 --> 00:55:02,640
Speaker 1: feel the same way. I find so in that way,

872
00:55:02,719 --> 00:55:06,120
Speaker 1: maybe this movie is far more relatable than I'm giving

873
00:55:06,160 --> 00:55:08,719
Speaker 1: it credit for. For me, Okay, here's what I think

874
00:55:08,760 --> 00:55:13,200
Speaker 1: it is. Again. I see what the movie its intentions are,

875
00:55:14,000 --> 00:55:16,520
Speaker 1: and I honestly think it's because I think it has

876
00:55:17,080 --> 00:55:19,320
Speaker 1: a screenplay that I do not think is well written.

877
00:55:20,239 --> 00:55:23,200
Speaker 1: The execution just like kind of falls flat for me.

878
00:55:23,360 --> 00:55:27,120
Speaker 1: I think it's very largely like a screenwriting thing, an

879
00:55:27,280 --> 00:55:30,480
Speaker 1: editing thing. The movie is like a half hour longer

880
00:55:30,560 --> 00:55:32,960
Speaker 1: than it needs to be. And I feel bad dumping

881
00:55:33,040 --> 00:55:36,440
Speaker 1: on these things because I know Annabeller did all of it,

882
00:55:36,960 --> 00:55:40,359
Speaker 1: but that will bring me to my monologue that I'll

883
00:55:40,360 --> 00:55:43,920
Speaker 1: get to eventually. But so I think it's just kind

884
00:55:43,960 --> 00:55:47,440
Speaker 1: of like a personal preference thing where the execution falls

885
00:55:47,840 --> 00:55:51,480
Speaker 1: flat because the story is just sort of like meandery

886
00:55:52,440 --> 00:55:56,160
Speaker 1: and at times unfocused, and I think something's happen that

887
00:55:56,239 --> 00:56:01,279
Speaker 1: are probably like symbolic or allegorical of something, but it's

888
00:56:01,360 --> 00:56:04,400
Speaker 1: not totally clear to me what or things aren't totally

889
00:56:04,640 --> 00:56:07,400
Speaker 1: tracking and and I don't know if it's because it

890
00:56:07,520 --> 00:56:10,560
Speaker 1: was intentionally Okay, this is gonna be so mean, but

891
00:56:10,680 --> 00:56:14,000
Speaker 1: I have to say it was it intentionally poorly written

892
00:56:14,600 --> 00:56:19,000
Speaker 1: because it's paying homage to the like these pulpy b

893
00:56:19,280 --> 00:56:23,440
Speaker 1: movies of that era that are also poorly written. I

894
00:56:23,560 --> 00:56:25,560
Speaker 1: sort of thought, so, I don't know, what did you think?

895
00:56:25,760 --> 00:56:29,239
Speaker 1: Was that? In my opinion, yes, in my opinion, yes,

896
00:56:29,800 --> 00:56:32,920
Speaker 1: if it's is. If it is not, then in my opinion,

897
00:56:33,040 --> 00:56:35,000
Speaker 1: she like if you didn't do it on purpose, she

898
00:56:35,120 --> 00:56:39,160
Speaker 1: was geniusly riding the line of and just like stumbling

899
00:56:39,280 --> 00:56:43,319
Speaker 1: into the perfect like wrongness. But also so that's why

900
00:56:43,360 --> 00:56:44,760
Speaker 1: I think she had to have done it on purpose.

901
00:56:44,840 --> 00:56:47,040
Speaker 1: Like I think it's so stilted in the way that

902
00:56:47,120 --> 00:56:49,080
Speaker 1: it is written, and like, yet other lines are so

903
00:56:49,400 --> 00:56:54,279
Speaker 1: clever and like the stuff about the tampon, like must

904
00:56:54,320 --> 00:56:56,440
Speaker 1: men have never seen a used tampon? And then later

905
00:56:56,480 --> 00:56:59,000
Speaker 1: when he's like and I found an old hot dog

906
00:56:59,120 --> 00:57:02,480
Speaker 1: under the bed, it was like, so I didn't get that.

907
00:57:02,560 --> 00:57:05,480
Speaker 1: Tell my second viewing stuff like that is so clever

908
00:57:05,680 --> 00:57:08,400
Speaker 1: that I think that the moments where it is like,

909
00:57:09,280 --> 00:57:12,120
Speaker 1: I think it is just a perfect homage to sixties

910
00:57:12,239 --> 00:57:15,040
Speaker 1: movies and like using all of the parts that are

911
00:57:15,400 --> 00:57:18,520
Speaker 1: like using them as paper dolls, almost like sixties movies,

912
00:57:18,560 --> 00:57:20,320
Speaker 1: being like, Okay, these are the these are the pieces

913
00:57:20,400 --> 00:57:22,040
Speaker 1: that I have, so I'm going to use them to

914
00:57:22,120 --> 00:57:25,920
Speaker 1: tell more messed up, slightly different story, but it's these

915
00:57:25,920 --> 00:57:29,479
Speaker 1: are the what I have, and people recognize the roles

916
00:57:29,560 --> 00:57:32,480
Speaker 1: that these people are in, so I'll I will use them. Yeah,

917
00:57:32,760 --> 00:57:37,240
Speaker 1: I suppose I land on. Okay, Well, a poorly written

918
00:57:37,320 --> 00:57:41,600
Speaker 1: movie and kind of modeled story does then not lend

919
00:57:41,680 --> 00:57:47,160
Speaker 1: itself very well to a clear message for me? Sure,

920
00:57:47,640 --> 00:57:49,960
Speaker 1: clearly other because I read so many reviews that are like,

921
00:57:50,160 --> 00:57:53,560
Speaker 1: this movie is genius, it's brilliant, it's amazing people, we're

922
00:57:54,000 --> 00:57:58,880
Speaker 1: foaming for this movie. But to be fair, a lot

923
00:57:58,920 --> 00:58:03,480
Speaker 1: of the reviews I read, we're hailing the visual style

924
00:58:04,040 --> 00:58:06,440
Speaker 1: and all of the artistry that went into the movie,

925
00:58:06,640 --> 00:58:09,400
Speaker 1: but saying like you should just ignore the plot. The

926
00:58:09,480 --> 00:58:12,360
Speaker 1: plot you just don't even notice it, just like kind

927
00:58:12,400 --> 00:58:14,360
Speaker 1: of don't even watch the plot, but just be sure

928
00:58:14,400 --> 00:58:17,800
Speaker 1: to really look at the movie though, But it looks amazing.

929
00:58:18,160 --> 00:58:20,440
Speaker 1: So so for me coming from like a very like

930
00:58:21,080 --> 00:58:24,960
Speaker 1: story centric screenwriting background, I would obviously never mentioned my

931
00:58:25,200 --> 00:58:30,800
Speaker 1: master's degree in screenwriting from Boston University, but I just

932
00:58:30,880 --> 00:58:34,000
Speaker 1: feel like there could be a much clearer, more like

933
00:58:34,160 --> 00:58:37,280
Speaker 1: sex positive more. Here's why I think she did this way.

934
00:58:37,280 --> 00:58:39,480
Speaker 1: I think that the visual style of it is so

935
00:58:39,680 --> 00:58:42,720
Speaker 1: effective and it just burns into your brain. That's and

936
00:58:42,760 --> 00:58:44,200
Speaker 1: you can't not look at it. And I think the

937
00:58:44,280 --> 00:58:47,000
Speaker 1: poster is just so eye catching and like it looks

938
00:58:47,040 --> 00:58:48,840
Speaker 1: like the six season in such a way that you're like,

939
00:58:49,400 --> 00:58:51,840
Speaker 1: I have to see if this was real, Like I

940
00:58:51,960 --> 00:58:54,400
Speaker 1: have to know if this was from that time, And

941
00:58:55,360 --> 00:58:57,680
Speaker 1: the way it glues you into it that way, I

942
00:58:57,800 --> 00:59:01,000
Speaker 1: think is part of the app of it. And then

943
00:59:01,080 --> 00:59:05,440
Speaker 1: it also like is using this yeah, meandering type of stuff,

944
00:59:05,720 --> 00:59:08,160
Speaker 1: but in like these dreamy styles, because I think that

945
00:59:08,200 --> 00:59:11,840
Speaker 1: it's supposed to be when you realized later like oh,

946
00:59:11,920 --> 00:59:13,880
Speaker 1: that was the movie that was not really from the

947
00:59:13,880 --> 00:59:15,680
Speaker 1: sixth season, like these parts of it stick out to you.

948
00:59:15,720 --> 00:59:17,560
Speaker 1: So I think it's supposed to like parts of it

949
00:59:17,640 --> 00:59:21,200
Speaker 1: stick with you later where you're like, oh, an old

950
00:59:21,240 --> 00:59:24,040
Speaker 1: hot dog he he meant he found a tampon under that.

951
00:59:26,160 --> 00:59:28,760
Speaker 1: I think that's why it is affected. I don't think

952
00:59:28,760 --> 00:59:31,040
Speaker 1: it's supposed to be Like if it were more straightforward

953
00:59:31,200 --> 00:59:33,520
Speaker 1: about the message, I don't think it would be as

954
00:59:33,560 --> 00:59:38,040
Speaker 1: fun or interesting or catchy. That it uses that style

955
00:59:38,240 --> 00:59:40,360
Speaker 1: to its advantage, and like it has it does a

956
00:59:40,400 --> 00:59:43,440
Speaker 1: bunch of silly and possibly meandering stuff in terms of

957
00:59:43,600 --> 00:59:45,600
Speaker 1: like other films, but I don't think that it would

958
00:59:45,640 --> 00:59:48,080
Speaker 1: work any other way. And I think the campiness of

959
00:59:48,160 --> 00:59:51,240
Speaker 1: it is what makes it so weird and special and

960
00:59:51,400 --> 00:59:54,720
Speaker 1: why that the real cool feminist messages of it are

961
00:59:54,760 --> 00:59:57,320
Speaker 1: so special, because it's just like they're dropped in there

962
00:59:57,360 --> 01:00:01,080
Speaker 1: among this, like glittering just play, like, oh, I didn't

963
01:00:01,160 --> 01:00:04,919
Speaker 1: expect to find this in here, but this is fun. Yeah.

964
01:00:04,960 --> 01:00:09,560
Speaker 1: I suppose if it was more straight forward, it would

965
01:00:09,640 --> 01:00:14,560
Speaker 1: feel too preachy and just to like, we get it.

966
01:00:15,480 --> 01:00:20,200
Speaker 1: Women are people who deserve to be sexually liberated and

967
01:00:20,400 --> 01:00:23,680
Speaker 1: like all that stuff. So yeah, yeah, because because I I,

968
01:00:24,920 --> 01:00:27,160
Speaker 1: I don't know, Like I I run very hot and

969
01:00:27,280 --> 01:00:29,520
Speaker 1: cold on art movies, where like if I like it,

970
01:00:29,640 --> 01:00:32,520
Speaker 1: I love it, and if I'm like not vibing with

971
01:00:32,760 --> 01:00:34,760
Speaker 1: the style or the script, I'm like, this is the

972
01:00:34,800 --> 01:00:38,320
Speaker 1: most annoying ship I've ever seen in my entire let

973
01:00:38,520 --> 01:00:44,240
Speaker 1: Like that's whatever the nature of the genre. But yeah,

974
01:00:44,320 --> 01:00:46,240
Speaker 1: I don't know, it does feel like it comes down

975
01:00:46,560 --> 01:00:49,880
Speaker 1: to personal preference. I like that. She I don't know.

976
01:00:50,040 --> 01:00:52,640
Speaker 1: I just like I can't in good faith dump on

977
01:00:52,680 --> 01:00:54,760
Speaker 1: this movie too much because it's just so much work

978
01:00:54,960 --> 01:00:59,880
Speaker 1: and so many like risks, and I feel like making

979
01:01:00,240 --> 01:01:03,680
Speaker 1: very simple feminist points in movies is such a thing

980
01:01:03,800 --> 01:01:07,000
Speaker 1: to do right now, Um, where it's very like and

981
01:01:07,200 --> 01:01:11,760
Speaker 1: that's how I am and I'm and girls actually rule,

982
01:01:12,160 --> 01:01:15,480
Speaker 1: and like as time goes on, there are and this

983
01:01:15,720 --> 01:01:18,040
Speaker 1: this kind of brings me back to the essay from

984
01:01:18,120 --> 01:01:21,240
Speaker 1: Luke Cornum I was talking about earlier, where it's like

985
01:01:21,880 --> 01:01:26,240
Speaker 1: straightforward movies about which is that come out now are

986
01:01:26,720 --> 01:01:30,240
Speaker 1: operating on like a higher level in terms of social

987
01:01:30,280 --> 01:01:32,680
Speaker 1: commentary than they were twenty years ago, because if you

988
01:01:32,720 --> 01:01:35,280
Speaker 1: think about The Craft, the Craft starts as a story

989
01:01:35,320 --> 01:01:40,160
Speaker 1: of his sisterhood that devolves into teen girls blackmailing each

990
01:01:40,200 --> 01:01:44,280
Speaker 1: other over various guys, like it ultimately becomes and you

991
01:01:44,320 --> 01:01:46,680
Speaker 1: could say the same thing for Practical Magic, where it's

992
01:01:46,840 --> 01:01:49,880
Speaker 1: like it's about sisterhood but also is inherently tied to

993
01:01:49,960 --> 01:01:53,320
Speaker 1: heterosexual relationships and doesn't really end up making a point

994
01:01:53,360 --> 01:01:56,120
Speaker 1: about anything in spite of marketing itself like it is

995
01:01:56,200 --> 01:01:59,080
Speaker 1: saying something which it kind of isn't, even though it's

996
01:01:59,080 --> 01:02:03,360
Speaker 1: still fun to watch, right whatever. But I I am

997
01:02:03,680 --> 01:02:07,560
Speaker 1: finding myself more drawn to like unusual ways of making

998
01:02:07,680 --> 01:02:10,440
Speaker 1: points like that because there's just so many movies right

999
01:02:10,480 --> 01:02:13,600
Speaker 1: now that's like women are good, and it's like, yeah,

1000
01:02:14,160 --> 01:02:17,680
Speaker 1: I know, it's that I just find that exhausting it

1001
01:02:17,760 --> 01:02:19,520
Speaker 1: to like be bashed over the head with it. And

1002
01:02:19,600 --> 01:02:22,640
Speaker 1: I think the scene that really solidifies is that the

1003
01:02:22,720 --> 01:02:25,720
Speaker 1: last scene of the movie really solidifies that it is

1004
01:02:26,120 --> 01:02:28,680
Speaker 1: a self aware of parody. To me, is like when

1005
01:02:29,200 --> 01:02:31,920
Speaker 1: they go back to the Renaissance fair the mock wedding scene,

1006
01:02:31,960 --> 01:02:34,320
Speaker 1: and all of the sound, all of the music is gone,

1007
01:02:34,720 --> 01:02:37,880
Speaker 1: but you hear all of everyone's like start strustling and

1008
01:02:38,080 --> 01:02:40,920
Speaker 1: like people breathing weirdly. So you hear like all of

1009
01:02:41,000 --> 01:02:45,000
Speaker 1: these just like gross unsettling noises that are like okay,

1010
01:02:45,080 --> 01:02:47,520
Speaker 1: there's people here, but there's all of the music is gone,

1011
01:02:47,760 --> 01:02:50,840
Speaker 1: and like it's just very unsettling and weird. And so

1012
01:02:51,120 --> 01:02:54,040
Speaker 1: that to me says like she is aware that, like

1013
01:02:54,640 --> 01:02:58,440
Speaker 1: this is a really ridiculous fantasy and like obviously you

1014
01:02:58,480 --> 01:03:02,040
Speaker 1: should not be like I'm going to be like when

1015
01:03:02,080 --> 01:03:08,760
Speaker 1: I But also it's like that girl literally yeah, Mrs

1016
01:03:09,000 --> 01:03:14,040
Speaker 1: Mrs girl Boss, Mrs Elizabeth Holmes, the Witch, but like yeah,

1017
01:03:14,120 --> 01:03:16,240
Speaker 1: but also it's like I don't know, there were parts

1018
01:03:16,240 --> 01:03:17,560
Speaker 1: of it I didn't like. There are parts of it

1019
01:03:17,640 --> 01:03:20,160
Speaker 1: I did like but I do feel like now having

1020
01:03:20,200 --> 01:03:22,360
Speaker 1: watched it a couple of times and like reading where

1021
01:03:22,400 --> 01:03:24,360
Speaker 1: the director's coming from, I do feel and just like

1022
01:03:24,440 --> 01:03:27,560
Speaker 1: through this conversation, I'm like, Okay, I understand what she's

1023
01:03:27,560 --> 01:03:30,640
Speaker 1: trying to say. And then it's like, you know, no

1024
01:03:31,040 --> 01:03:34,840
Speaker 1: no harm, no foul as far as I'm concerned, Let's

1025
01:03:34,880 --> 01:03:36,960
Speaker 1: take another quick break and then we'll come back for

1026
01:03:37,040 --> 01:03:47,120
Speaker 1: a more discussion and we're back. I agree with listen.

1027
01:03:47,200 --> 01:03:49,520
Speaker 1: Like anything that bashes you over the head or has

1028
01:03:49,640 --> 01:03:52,320
Speaker 1: some weird I just I'm always reminded of that scene

1029
01:03:52,520 --> 01:03:57,520
Speaker 1: in the last Avengers movie. We're like ten women that

1030
01:03:57,640 --> 01:04:01,480
Speaker 1: they've managed to like weave into the stories throughout don't

1031
01:04:01,560 --> 01:04:06,840
Speaker 1: know each other. The girls are here exactly like all

1032
01:04:06,880 --> 01:04:09,440
Speaker 1: the women in the m C. You congregate on the

1033
01:04:09,480 --> 01:04:13,040
Speaker 1: battlefield and start to walk alongside each other, and they're

1034
01:04:13,080 --> 01:04:22,760
Speaker 1: like why feminism, Donna Exactly. That ship annoys me so

1035
01:04:23,160 --> 01:04:26,960
Speaker 1: much because it's just so like performative, and it's like

1036
01:04:27,480 --> 01:04:31,520
Speaker 1: whatever male director's idea of what they think women want

1037
01:04:31,600 --> 01:04:34,640
Speaker 1: to see or that they think is empowering for women

1038
01:04:34,800 --> 01:04:36,880
Speaker 1: or whatever, and like so anything that's like very bash

1039
01:04:36,920 --> 01:04:40,760
Speaker 1: you over the head like that is similarly not effective.

1040
01:04:41,560 --> 01:04:44,280
Speaker 1: I guess. I just think there were some things that

1041
01:04:44,400 --> 01:04:48,760
Speaker 1: I was like, how what what is the takeaway here?

1042
01:04:48,960 --> 01:04:50,280
Speaker 1: What am I supposed to be? Or how does the

1043
01:04:50,360 --> 01:04:52,120
Speaker 1: movie feel about this? Or how does the you know,

1044
01:04:52,200 --> 01:04:55,280
Speaker 1: how does the filmmaker feel about this? And one of

1045
01:04:55,360 --> 01:04:59,040
Speaker 1: those things was um and again, maybe this is more

1046
01:04:59,200 --> 01:05:02,880
Speaker 1: clearly effective comedy and parody to other people, but I

1047
01:05:03,080 --> 01:05:08,000
Speaker 1: was just kind of missing it. Where so the men

1048
01:05:08,520 --> 01:05:13,360
Speaker 1: would typically take the love potion fall painfully in love

1049
01:05:13,440 --> 01:05:16,040
Speaker 1: to the point where they were feeling in such a

1050
01:05:16,120 --> 01:05:18,560
Speaker 1: way that some of the other characters were like, men

1051
01:05:18,960 --> 01:05:22,680
Speaker 1: become soft when they fall in love, and it's it's

1052
01:05:22,800 --> 01:05:26,640
Speaker 1: really gross for a man to have feelings. And when

1053
01:05:26,920 --> 01:05:29,800
Speaker 1: Elaine calls him a pussy and she's like, why are

1054
01:05:29,840 --> 01:05:33,440
Speaker 1: you pussy, he's crying just like a little girl. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1055
01:05:33,480 --> 01:05:36,960
Speaker 1: A lot of like equating um, men being vulnerable and

1056
01:05:37,120 --> 01:05:41,880
Speaker 1: men expressing emotion to like being gross and stuff. And

1057
01:05:41,880 --> 01:05:44,080
Speaker 1: I feel like, I guess because the characters who are

1058
01:05:44,880 --> 01:05:48,200
Speaker 1: who don't find that appealing, our characters like Elaine, who

1059
01:05:48,280 --> 01:05:52,160
Speaker 1: we are not meant to identify with, I felt guess

1060
01:05:52,520 --> 01:05:55,840
Speaker 1: my take on that was that again, I do think

1061
01:05:55,880 --> 01:05:58,720
Speaker 1: that Annabella knows that she's doing there where it's I

1062
01:05:58,880 --> 01:06:01,600
Speaker 1: I feel like that would only happened to male characters

1063
01:06:01,720 --> 01:06:04,840
Speaker 1: after they had already previously expressed that they found the

1064
01:06:04,920 --> 01:06:08,880
Speaker 1: same quality when it appears in women to be embarrassing

1065
01:06:08,960 --> 01:06:13,360
Speaker 1: and gross and annoying, where it's like Wayne's character before

1066
01:06:13,680 --> 01:06:19,320
Speaker 1: he does begin like painfully emoting, which is like super

1067
01:06:19,440 --> 01:06:22,520
Speaker 1: campy and like whatever, it's it's a bit much, but

1068
01:06:22,800 --> 01:06:25,680
Speaker 1: he like they have He and um Elaine have this

1069
01:06:25,760 --> 01:06:29,240
Speaker 1: discussion where he's like, oh, yeah, you know, like when

1070
01:06:29,320 --> 01:06:33,600
Speaker 1: women expect things of me or like basically like I

1071
01:06:33,680 --> 01:06:37,080
Speaker 1: don't know. I feel like everyone who is the like

1072
01:06:37,720 --> 01:06:40,800
Speaker 1: misfortune of having sex with kind of an asshole guy

1073
01:06:41,040 --> 01:06:43,640
Speaker 1: has had a version of this conversation where it's like,

1074
01:06:44,040 --> 01:06:46,960
Speaker 1: you know, like I don't understand why I have to

1075
01:06:47,080 --> 01:06:49,800
Speaker 1: be like nice to people that I have sex with,

1076
01:06:50,880 --> 01:06:53,479
Speaker 1: Like it's it's so like corny and over the top.

1077
01:06:53,600 --> 01:06:57,240
Speaker 1: But it's that I thought, because that conversation happened when

1078
01:06:57,480 --> 01:07:03,360
Speaker 1: he was expressing the same overblown, clearly overstated behavior that

1079
01:07:03,560 --> 01:07:08,520
Speaker 1: he was describing in an earlier scene that I didn't like.

1080
01:07:08,800 --> 01:07:11,320
Speaker 1: It didn't come off to me as like men shouldn't

1081
01:07:11,480 --> 01:07:14,320
Speaker 1: emote mentioned expect because some movies definitely firmly come down

1082
01:07:14,360 --> 01:07:16,920
Speaker 1: on that side. But I think that it was almost

1083
01:07:17,000 --> 01:07:22,200
Speaker 1: like a punishment for finding any woman he'd ever been

1084
01:07:22,320 --> 01:07:25,960
Speaker 1: with two expect And it's also like he describes it

1085
01:07:26,080 --> 01:07:30,280
Speaker 1: as like neediness, but what he's describing is basic respect.

1086
01:07:30,520 --> 01:07:32,840
Speaker 1: Like I thought that then was really like the way

1087
01:07:32,880 --> 01:07:35,440
Speaker 1: that that dialogue was written, as he's making it seem like,

1088
01:07:35,880 --> 01:07:38,840
Speaker 1: can you believe someone would expect this of me when

1089
01:07:39,400 --> 01:07:44,080
Speaker 1: it's kind of basic courtesy? So yeah, that didn't That

1090
01:07:44,120 --> 01:07:46,400
Speaker 1: didn't bump me too much. And I like that she's

1091
01:07:46,720 --> 01:07:49,720
Speaker 1: I like that she's sarcastically babing him in that scene.

1092
01:07:49,760 --> 01:07:54,640
Speaker 1: She's like and then he goes in a way yes,

1093
01:07:54,920 --> 01:07:57,680
Speaker 1: and you're like, oh god, I feel like they were.

1094
01:07:57,920 --> 01:08:01,160
Speaker 1: She was showing like they were. They were flipping the

1095
01:08:01,760 --> 01:08:05,040
Speaker 1: gender roles basically, and that like Wayne was becoming the

1096
01:08:05,160 --> 01:08:09,720
Speaker 1: way women are like stereotypically portrayed ass like super emotional

1097
01:08:09,960 --> 01:08:12,080
Speaker 1: and like needing whatever. And like when he does all

1098
01:08:12,120 --> 01:08:14,480
Speaker 1: of that, then l And is like, oh, no, you

1099
01:08:15,520 --> 01:08:18,280
Speaker 1: I didn't want you to be like that. This is

1100
01:08:18,320 --> 01:08:20,320
Speaker 1: not what I wanted from love, But now you're doing

1101
01:08:20,720 --> 01:08:23,240
Speaker 1: what women do and I'm not. This is not what

1102
01:08:23,360 --> 01:08:25,599
Speaker 1: I asked for? Yeah, which does I mean? I think,

1103
01:08:25,720 --> 01:08:28,960
Speaker 1: what what that flipped? Because it is like a clear

1104
01:08:29,200 --> 01:08:32,679
Speaker 1: like the way we've been classically conditioned to view binary

1105
01:08:32,800 --> 01:08:37,400
Speaker 1: gender roles flipped and then used to like weaponize against

1106
01:08:37,960 --> 01:08:41,640
Speaker 1: CIS men. What that I mean? And it's like not

1107
01:08:41,840 --> 01:08:44,560
Speaker 1: every movie can do everything. So I don't even know

1108
01:08:44,680 --> 01:08:48,200
Speaker 1: how much of a criticism this is, but that creative

1109
01:08:48,240 --> 01:08:53,160
Speaker 1: decision means that there's no room for nuance in the discussion.

1110
01:08:53,240 --> 01:08:57,880
Speaker 1: Like it's like, if you're flipping traditional gender roles manufactured

1111
01:08:58,080 --> 01:09:03,240
Speaker 1: by society in this sixties seventies way, then yeah, it

1112
01:09:03,320 --> 01:09:07,320
Speaker 1: feels like Annabella doesn't leave herself a lot of area

1113
01:09:07,560 --> 01:09:14,480
Speaker 1: to discuss living outside of like traditionally prescribed gender identities

1114
01:09:14,680 --> 01:09:18,960
Speaker 1: or like so, so I I understand why, like that

1115
01:09:19,240 --> 01:09:24,600
Speaker 1: is something that feels kind of glaringly missing. I don't know,

1116
01:09:25,160 --> 01:09:28,800
Speaker 1: this is such a complicated discussion. Do you do you

1117
01:09:29,000 --> 01:09:31,639
Speaker 1: think I'm really curious about this? Do you guys think

1118
01:09:31,800 --> 01:09:36,200
Speaker 1: that it would be possible to emulate the sixties aesthetic

1119
01:09:36,320 --> 01:09:41,040
Speaker 1: and theme and balance a more nuanced feminist conversation, because

1120
01:09:41,120 --> 01:09:43,360
Speaker 1: I don't know, I feel like there would be room

1121
01:09:43,479 --> 01:09:46,880
Speaker 1: for I mean, there's What I don't understand is like

1122
01:09:47,120 --> 01:09:52,000
Speaker 1: why there's basically no non white actors in this movie,

1123
01:09:52,600 --> 01:09:57,040
Speaker 1: because even for the sixties or seventies, that's not off

1124
01:09:57,200 --> 01:10:00,320
Speaker 1: certainly like not off the table. So I thought that

1125
01:10:00,439 --> 01:10:04,240
Speaker 1: was like definitely a bizarre choice, and I wonder how

1126
01:10:04,280 --> 01:10:07,840
Speaker 1: consciously made that choice was, if at all. I don't know.

1127
01:10:08,080 --> 01:10:10,120
Speaker 1: I mean, but in terms of like having a nuanced

1128
01:10:10,160 --> 01:10:14,320
Speaker 1: conversation about gender, I mean, this is like the least

1129
01:10:14,400 --> 01:10:19,559
Speaker 1: nuance genre available, So I don't know. I yeah, I guess,

1130
01:10:19,680 --> 01:10:22,559
Speaker 1: I don't know. I feel like, I mean, you can

1131
01:10:22,640 --> 01:10:25,480
Speaker 1: just like even if you wanted it to be esthetically

1132
01:10:26,200 --> 01:10:31,479
Speaker 1: sixties camp technicolor melodrama B movie type thing, and still

1133
01:10:31,680 --> 01:10:35,760
Speaker 1: make commentary. I feel like that's possible because you can

1134
01:10:35,840 --> 01:10:40,640
Speaker 1: just take creative liberties with things and it I mean

1135
01:10:40,720 --> 01:10:42,920
Speaker 1: maybe it's it'll be disson it for some people, but

1136
01:10:43,520 --> 01:10:45,200
Speaker 1: I don't know, I feel like it could be effective.

1137
01:10:45,600 --> 01:10:48,759
Speaker 1: And now, okay, so now I'm thinking about how there's

1138
01:10:48,840 --> 01:10:52,320
Speaker 1: like long monologues because I was like, oh, yeah, I

1139
01:10:52,400 --> 01:10:55,040
Speaker 1: don't you know, I don't want anything that's bashing me overhead.

1140
01:10:55,600 --> 01:10:59,000
Speaker 1: But then there's like these long scenes where like Barbara

1141
01:10:59,400 --> 01:11:03,360
Speaker 1: and the the Witch man, gay In or whatever are like.

1142
01:11:04,080 --> 01:11:08,800
Speaker 1: And this is another example of where I'm not sure

1143
01:11:09,160 --> 01:11:13,320
Speaker 1: what the movie is exactly trying to say, because gay

1144
01:11:13,400 --> 01:11:18,519
Speaker 1: In and Barbara they're talking, and they're saying some things

1145
01:11:18,640 --> 01:11:22,000
Speaker 1: that I very much agree with, and then two seconds

1146
01:11:22,080 --> 01:11:24,599
Speaker 1: later they say some other things that I cannot really

1147
01:11:24,640 --> 01:11:28,559
Speaker 1: get behind. So I'm not sure exactly where the movie

1148
01:11:28,680 --> 01:11:32,360
Speaker 1: lands or if this is parody that I just don't

1149
01:11:32,439 --> 01:11:35,280
Speaker 1: quite get. But to give you an example, they're talking

1150
01:11:35,360 --> 01:11:39,840
Speaker 1: about how, like, you know, there's this history of witchcraft

1151
01:11:39,920 --> 01:11:44,320
Speaker 1: and it's interwoven with this fear of female sexuality and

1152
01:11:44,400 --> 01:11:47,400
Speaker 1: how women were burned at the stake because you know,

1153
01:11:47,560 --> 01:11:53,120
Speaker 1: men feared the erotic feelings that women solicited in them

1154
01:11:53,560 --> 01:11:57,479
Speaker 1: and stuff like that. But then gains like, oh, but

1155
01:11:57,600 --> 01:12:01,479
Speaker 1: a woman's greatest power lies in her sex ruality. And

1156
01:12:01,760 --> 01:12:03,880
Speaker 1: I just I always found it a little bizarre that

1157
01:12:04,000 --> 01:12:07,639
Speaker 1: that message came from a guy and who is clearly

1158
01:12:07,680 --> 01:12:11,280
Speaker 1: painted as creepy, because I'm not opposed to the message

1159
01:12:11,360 --> 01:12:15,720
Speaker 1: of like anyone finding their sexuality to be a liberating,

1160
01:12:15,920 --> 01:12:19,080
Speaker 1: empowering thing, but it's just like, sure, the vessel for

1161
01:12:19,200 --> 01:12:23,559
Speaker 1: the message is a little DISSI it, yeah, because later

1162
01:12:23,720 --> 01:12:29,040
Speaker 1: he's also like, because women's greatest power is in their sexuality,

1163
01:12:29,800 --> 01:12:33,879
Speaker 1: that means that you should wear perfume and high heels

1164
01:12:34,040 --> 01:12:37,240
Speaker 1: and makeup and learn to dress your hair in attractive ways,

1165
01:12:37,800 --> 01:12:41,479
Speaker 1: you know, display flesh artfully and be a mother and

1166
01:12:41,600 --> 01:12:45,639
Speaker 1: a lover. I'm always displaying flesh artfully as all about

1167
01:12:45,880 --> 01:12:49,880
Speaker 1: about you. And I'm not like anti makeup or anti

1168
01:12:50,000 --> 01:12:52,600
Speaker 1: perfume or anti explosing flesh, like I do all of

1169
01:12:52,680 --> 01:12:55,599
Speaker 1: these things. Anyone can do whatever they want with their body.

1170
01:12:56,120 --> 01:12:59,760
Speaker 1: But he's basically saying, do these things in order to

1171
01:12:59,840 --> 01:13:02,920
Speaker 1: be appealing to men, and it's very important that you

1172
01:13:03,040 --> 01:13:06,800
Speaker 1: do these things. And then he says like he's telling

1173
01:13:06,880 --> 01:13:10,280
Speaker 1: women to stand your ground, but always let the man

1174
01:13:10,479 --> 01:13:13,240
Speaker 1: feel like a man. And then Barbara's chiming in and

1175
01:13:13,360 --> 01:13:16,040
Speaker 1: she's saying, yeah, we have to use sex magic to

1176
01:13:16,760 --> 01:13:19,840
Speaker 1: destroy a man's fear of you. And so I'm like,

1177
01:13:20,320 --> 01:13:23,080
Speaker 1: is this what the movie subscribing to is? I didn't

1178
01:13:23,160 --> 01:13:25,080
Speaker 1: think so, Like, I I didn't think. I mean, I

1179
01:13:25,160 --> 01:13:28,720
Speaker 1: don't think that the movie was necessarily getting behind what

1180
01:13:28,960 --> 01:13:31,759
Speaker 1: Gan was saying because he's like, I feel like he's

1181
01:13:31,840 --> 01:13:36,600
Speaker 1: like clearly like this bizarre foil who's like trying to

1182
01:13:36,760 --> 01:13:39,280
Speaker 1: get women to behave the way that he wants. But

1183
01:13:39,400 --> 01:13:40,920
Speaker 1: I do, I do see what you're saying. That, like,

1184
01:13:41,200 --> 01:13:44,280
Speaker 1: the message of this movie can get a little like

1185
01:13:44,400 --> 01:13:49,400
Speaker 1: it's so esthetically pleasing, and then sometimes the message gets

1186
01:13:49,439 --> 01:13:52,759
Speaker 1: a little bit mouddled, especially in a in a scene

1187
01:13:52,840 --> 01:13:56,479
Speaker 1: like this, where again it's like this constant tug of

1188
01:13:56,520 --> 01:13:59,640
Speaker 1: war of like points that I agree with and that

1189
01:13:59,800 --> 01:14:03,080
Speaker 1: I think are coming from a place of like, yes,

1190
01:14:03,439 --> 01:14:08,280
Speaker 1: it's okay to be empowered sexually as a woman. Yes,

1191
01:14:08,400 --> 01:14:13,880
Speaker 1: women have historically been condemned and persecuted for their sexuality

1192
01:14:14,040 --> 01:14:17,519
Speaker 1: and perceived as being evil witches because of it. And

1193
01:14:17,600 --> 01:14:21,760
Speaker 1: then two seconds later, like this guy who Barbara and

1194
01:14:21,960 --> 01:14:25,559
Speaker 1: Elaine seem to agree with, is like, and that's why

1195
01:14:26,040 --> 01:14:30,560
Speaker 1: you should make yourself as attractive to men as possible,

1196
01:14:31,000 --> 01:14:35,400
Speaker 1: because that's how you become empowered. And I'm like, and

1197
01:14:35,479 --> 01:14:37,640
Speaker 1: again I'm like, this might be parody, but if it is,

1198
01:14:37,800 --> 01:14:40,960
Speaker 1: I can't not really tell. And it's just not quite

1199
01:14:41,760 --> 01:14:43,760
Speaker 1: working for me, just because of like the way the

1200
01:14:43,800 --> 01:14:46,640
Speaker 1: scene is written, the delivery of the dialogue. There's just

1201
01:14:46,720 --> 01:14:48,439
Speaker 1: like all these things that to me make it feel

1202
01:14:48,560 --> 01:14:52,080
Speaker 1: very dissonant. It does I mean it just it does

1203
01:14:52,160 --> 01:14:55,160
Speaker 1: seem like it's a matter of like this is just

1204
01:14:55,680 --> 01:14:59,240
Speaker 1: like not definitely like not a movie for everyone, like

1205
01:15:00,479 --> 01:15:03,120
Speaker 1: at its core, which like, yeah, I guess leads me

1206
01:15:03,240 --> 01:15:08,040
Speaker 1: to my kind of spiel about how I tend to

1207
01:15:08,120 --> 01:15:14,360
Speaker 1: feel this pressure to like media made by women and

1208
01:15:14,600 --> 01:15:19,320
Speaker 1: other marginalized creators, especially media with a feminist with feminist

1209
01:15:19,400 --> 01:15:22,280
Speaker 1: themes like The Love, which because I want to be

1210
01:15:22,640 --> 01:15:28,320
Speaker 1: supportive to these filmmakers and this cause, but I also

1211
01:15:28,479 --> 01:15:30,519
Speaker 1: don't want to feel like I kind of have to

1212
01:15:30,600 --> 01:15:34,479
Speaker 1: automatically like these things based solely on this pressure to

1213
01:15:34,680 --> 01:15:38,960
Speaker 1: feel supportive and because then it's just pandering, Like yeah,

1214
01:15:39,080 --> 01:15:41,160
Speaker 1: I do. I do feel It's like I don't know,

1215
01:15:41,240 --> 01:15:43,720
Speaker 1: everyone has a different perspective on this, but I feel

1216
01:15:43,720 --> 01:15:47,000
Speaker 1: like I'm like I'm always going to like give a

1217
01:15:47,280 --> 01:15:51,360
Speaker 1: marginalized creator's project and work a chance, like before I

1218
01:15:51,400 --> 01:15:55,800
Speaker 1: will give some rando white guy a chance. But it

1219
01:15:55,880 --> 01:15:57,720
Speaker 1: doesn't mean like I don't know. We talked about this

1220
01:15:57,800 --> 01:15:59,519
Speaker 1: on this We've talked about this on the show in

1221
01:15:59,600 --> 01:16:03,480
Speaker 1: the past, where it's like, you know, true true equality

1222
01:16:04,280 --> 01:16:08,639
Speaker 1: means that everyone makes mediocre ship sometimes if the difference

1223
01:16:08,760 --> 01:16:12,200
Speaker 1: is more in like how you know the number of

1224
01:16:12,320 --> 01:16:15,200
Speaker 1: flaming hoops that are added for for marginalized creators. But

1225
01:16:15,280 --> 01:16:17,519
Speaker 1: it's like exactly, it's like, this is a movie by

1226
01:16:17,560 --> 01:16:21,040
Speaker 1: a woman of color, and she did have to jump

1227
01:16:21,080 --> 01:16:22,840
Speaker 1: through a lot of hoops to make it, and it's

1228
01:16:22,880 --> 01:16:25,360
Speaker 1: still not for everybody. I know. That's like kind of

1229
01:16:25,400 --> 01:16:28,519
Speaker 1: what I'm grappling with on this entire episode, as I'm

1230
01:16:28,520 --> 01:16:32,120
Speaker 1: sure listeners can tell. Where like, I want to be

1231
01:16:32,160 --> 01:16:35,320
Speaker 1: able to judge things based on merit and based on

1232
01:16:35,360 --> 01:16:38,920
Speaker 1: the quality of storytelling, which is the criteria I used

1233
01:16:38,960 --> 01:16:43,800
Speaker 1: to judge media made by cis head white men, because again,

1234
01:16:43,880 --> 01:16:49,120
Speaker 1: like true feminism is to me is that it is

1235
01:16:49,200 --> 01:16:52,360
Speaker 1: okay to admit that you don't like a thing made

1236
01:16:52,640 --> 01:16:56,439
Speaker 1: by a woman. But like you said, you know, I

1237
01:16:56,560 --> 01:17:00,200
Speaker 1: know how difficult it is for marginalized creators to their

1238
01:17:00,240 --> 01:17:04,040
Speaker 1: movies made, to get funding for their projects two strikes

1239
01:17:04,120 --> 01:17:06,720
Speaker 1: if there's a flop, etcetera. Yeah, I mean right that,

1240
01:17:06,880 --> 01:17:09,880
Speaker 1: you know, distribution and like have their movies seen by

1241
01:17:10,240 --> 01:17:13,400
Speaker 1: a large audience. They don't. They don't even get to

1242
01:17:13,520 --> 01:17:15,680
Speaker 1: do the same job. And I can't emphasize that enough

1243
01:17:15,720 --> 01:17:19,120
Speaker 1: because I've seen I've seen it all different ways, and

1244
01:17:19,560 --> 01:17:21,240
Speaker 1: they just don't even get to do the same job,

1245
01:17:21,280 --> 01:17:22,960
Speaker 1: and it's just not fucking fair to judge them on

1246
01:17:23,040 --> 01:17:26,360
Speaker 1: the same standards because it's a different ball game. Um,

1247
01:17:26,640 --> 01:17:30,439
Speaker 1: that's why I am inclined to be more forgiving, or

1248
01:17:30,560 --> 01:17:33,280
Speaker 1: to just to not not be more forgiving, but like

1249
01:17:33,439 --> 01:17:36,519
Speaker 1: to like, Okay, what were the circumstances here, Like what

1250
01:17:36,760 --> 01:17:39,200
Speaker 1: was the budget? Who else was involved in? Really like

1251
01:17:40,000 --> 01:17:43,439
Speaker 1: analyze that part of the situation in context with how

1252
01:17:43,520 --> 01:17:46,040
Speaker 1: I view my opinion of the movie, because I think

1253
01:17:46,120 --> 01:17:50,479
Speaker 1: all of that really hugely matters. And like, like Anna Biller,

1254
01:17:50,680 --> 01:17:53,439
Speaker 1: she had had experiences like that with her own crew

1255
01:17:53,960 --> 01:17:57,160
Speaker 1: on this very movie. There was a piece in Indie

1256
01:17:57,160 --> 01:18:00,439
Speaker 1: Wire published in late seventeen based on of a Twitter

1257
01:18:00,520 --> 01:18:04,800
Speaker 1: thread that Anna Biller had made about how she felt

1258
01:18:04,960 --> 01:18:09,479
Speaker 1: very frustrated by and disrespected by her own crew at

1259
01:18:09,560 --> 01:18:11,200
Speaker 1: many points. And it doesn't sound like it was like

1260
01:18:11,280 --> 01:18:13,439
Speaker 1: anyone high up. It sounds like the actors were all

1261
01:18:13,560 --> 01:18:16,600
Speaker 1: very respectful, but um, just feeling that like that she

1262
01:18:17,160 --> 01:18:20,080
Speaker 1: as a director who was a woman and also a

1263
01:18:20,160 --> 01:18:22,880
Speaker 1: person of color, like she was not taken as seriously

1264
01:18:23,400 --> 01:18:27,160
Speaker 1: as someone who was Like admittedly, I mean, if you've

1265
01:18:27,200 --> 01:18:30,240
Speaker 1: seen the movie, she's doing some weird stuff. She's making

1266
01:18:30,320 --> 01:18:34,880
Speaker 1: some like hard choices. The swings are big ones. But

1267
01:18:35,040 --> 01:18:40,519
Speaker 1: it doesn't sound like her crew was as I don't know.

1268
01:18:40,600 --> 01:18:43,240
Speaker 1: I mean, they weren't treating her like they would if

1269
01:18:43,439 --> 01:18:45,840
Speaker 1: she was like David Lynch being like, we're doing something

1270
01:18:46,160 --> 01:18:49,800
Speaker 1: weird today, everybody, and like they were just like, this

1271
01:18:50,000 --> 01:18:52,160
Speaker 1: woman doesn't know what she's doing. So I wanted to.

1272
01:18:53,120 --> 01:18:55,360
Speaker 1: I mean, she she we can link to this as well.

1273
01:18:55,439 --> 01:18:57,640
Speaker 1: But she was saying, quote, it was so bad that

1274
01:18:57,760 --> 01:19:00,759
Speaker 1: during reshoots we had different A d S Assistant directors

1275
01:19:01,160 --> 01:19:03,880
Speaker 1: and they were appalled at what was going on. They said,

1276
01:19:03,960 --> 01:19:07,840
Speaker 1: your own crew is sabotaging you. Why uh blah blah blah.

1277
01:19:07,880 --> 01:19:11,360
Speaker 1: She said she's had quote this same thing on other films.

1278
01:19:11,680 --> 01:19:13,800
Speaker 1: Some crew members seem how bent on destroying you and

1279
01:19:13,880 --> 01:19:15,559
Speaker 1: the film to make sure it never gets in the can.

1280
01:19:16,320 --> 01:19:18,080
Speaker 1: I think it has to do something with being a

1281
01:19:18,200 --> 01:19:20,200
Speaker 1: female director, and something to do with how the line

1282
01:19:20,200 --> 01:19:24,760
Speaker 1: producers said a bad vibe and then disappeared, so you know,

1283
01:19:24,880 --> 01:19:27,160
Speaker 1: it's like and also it's person to person. I don't

1284
01:19:27,200 --> 01:19:30,600
Speaker 1: know what Anna Biller's directing style or personality is. The

1285
01:19:31,000 --> 01:19:33,040
Speaker 1: examples are too vague, but it does that's just like

1286
01:19:33,560 --> 01:19:37,320
Speaker 1: painted in my head of like yeah, just like your

1287
01:19:37,360 --> 01:19:40,920
Speaker 1: own crew is not aligning with your creative vision. That

1288
01:19:41,080 --> 01:19:43,519
Speaker 1: has to be so frustrating as long as you are

1289
01:19:43,640 --> 01:19:47,679
Speaker 1: treating your crew well, right, because you're just a different

1290
01:19:47,840 --> 01:19:50,160
Speaker 1: shape and a different like, they won't see you the

1291
01:19:50,200 --> 01:19:52,120
Speaker 1: same as they see a man, and so they're not

1292
01:19:52,360 --> 01:19:56,040
Speaker 1: going to just intrinsically the way that things are. They

1293
01:19:56,080 --> 01:19:57,760
Speaker 1: will not treat you the same and you will not

1294
01:19:57,880 --> 01:20:00,320
Speaker 1: get the same respect, and so it is in earrently

1295
01:20:00,439 --> 01:20:02,639
Speaker 1: a different ballgame to direct as a woman, and I'm

1296
01:20:02,640 --> 01:20:05,400
Speaker 1: sure as as an Asian woman. Like it's like, um,

1297
01:20:05,720 --> 01:20:08,000
Speaker 1: do you know who you're talking to? Like this is

1298
01:20:08,040 --> 01:20:10,280
Speaker 1: the director of the movie? Like yeah, Like who said

1299
01:20:10,360 --> 01:20:13,400
Speaker 1: do you think you're on? Yeah? Yeah, who do you

1300
01:20:13,479 --> 01:20:15,960
Speaker 1: think is paying? Like who do you think your job

1301
01:20:16,040 --> 01:20:18,640
Speaker 1: is coming from? Like yeah, I feel like it is

1302
01:20:18,960 --> 01:20:21,840
Speaker 1: Like that's like a conversation that I hope we keep

1303
01:20:21,920 --> 01:20:24,160
Speaker 1: having because it's like, I don't know, I mean, it

1304
01:20:24,320 --> 01:20:27,680
Speaker 1: is kind of a difficult thing to reconcile. And I

1305
01:20:27,720 --> 01:20:30,720
Speaker 1: mean I totally see where you're coming from. Caitlin's like

1306
01:20:30,840 --> 01:20:34,799
Speaker 1: we don't want to like judge directors on separate scales,

1307
01:20:35,160 --> 01:20:38,479
Speaker 1: like that's not fair. But then it's also like, but

1308
01:20:39,160 --> 01:20:42,600
Speaker 1: not being assist white guy making a movie is going

1309
01:20:42,640 --> 01:20:47,479
Speaker 1: to affect your experience totally significantly. So it's just which again,

1310
01:20:47,560 --> 01:20:50,280
Speaker 1: I do want to like acknowledge and like take into

1311
01:20:50,320 --> 01:20:54,160
Speaker 1: consideration as I am judging a movie. I don't want

1312
01:20:54,200 --> 01:20:56,400
Speaker 1: to like ignore that or be like it doesn't matter.

1313
01:20:56,600 --> 01:20:58,439
Speaker 1: I'm just going to judge a movie because like the

1314
01:20:58,520 --> 01:21:01,760
Speaker 1: movie by the movie. But at the end of the day,

1315
01:21:01,840 --> 01:21:04,360
Speaker 1: there were just some movies that, yeah, like that just

1316
01:21:04,520 --> 01:21:06,439
Speaker 1: don't end up being for me, and all I have

1317
01:21:06,560 --> 01:21:08,960
Speaker 1: to do is just not watch them. Ever again, I

1318
01:21:09,040 --> 01:21:12,439
Speaker 1: think it's just like the work of asking yourself, like, well,

1319
01:21:12,560 --> 01:21:14,960
Speaker 1: why isn't it for me? And if you hit a

1320
01:21:15,000 --> 01:21:18,200
Speaker 1: block there, if you're like, well, I just couldn't perfectly

1321
01:21:18,280 --> 01:21:20,880
Speaker 1: relate with the main character because they weren't exactly my

1322
01:21:21,080 --> 01:21:24,439
Speaker 1: perspective or bah. Like if if you're hitting blocks that

1323
01:21:24,560 --> 01:21:28,280
Speaker 1: are you know, based on your own biases or your

1324
01:21:28,280 --> 01:21:33,240
Speaker 1: own unwillingness to learn about the experiences of others, Like yeah,

1325
01:21:33,560 --> 01:21:37,040
Speaker 1: sit yourself down in your little inner brain chamber and

1326
01:21:37,120 --> 01:21:39,599
Speaker 1: have a little talk like and that is a huge

1327
01:21:39,720 --> 01:21:41,920
Speaker 1: and I feel like that is like kind of in

1328
01:21:42,040 --> 01:21:44,640
Speaker 1: conversation with what you're talking about. And and part of

1329
01:21:44,880 --> 01:21:47,360
Speaker 1: the reason it's so hard for marginalized creators to get

1330
01:21:47,439 --> 01:21:51,320
Speaker 1: projects funded is because there is such a like sis

1331
01:21:51,439 --> 01:21:55,040
Speaker 1: white male normative, like if a if a white guy

1332
01:21:55,200 --> 01:21:58,200
Speaker 1: can't enjoy your movie, then you don't get a movie. Sorry.

1333
01:21:58,479 --> 01:22:01,760
Speaker 1: Like but in this wait, it's like if you're if

1334
01:22:01,840 --> 01:22:04,120
Speaker 1: you ask yourself, which it seems like you very much

1335
01:22:04,160 --> 01:22:06,280
Speaker 1: have in the case of this movie, like why is

1336
01:22:06,320 --> 01:22:08,360
Speaker 1: this movie not for me? And the answer is like

1337
01:22:09,040 --> 01:22:12,120
Speaker 1: I didn't like the writing and I it's not my genre.

1338
01:22:12,439 --> 01:22:15,040
Speaker 1: Then it's like, yeah, you're not, Like you're not going

1339
01:22:15,080 --> 01:22:19,760
Speaker 1: to go to hell, Like it's totally fine. I don't know.

1340
01:22:19,880 --> 01:22:22,320
Speaker 1: It's it's like it's a very It's like a similarly

1341
01:22:22,400 --> 01:22:26,120
Speaker 1: hard thing to grapple with as um being a hetero

1342
01:22:26,439 --> 01:22:33,000
Speaker 1: woman who likes the romantic attention of men. It's confusing,

1343
01:22:33,720 --> 01:22:38,240
Speaker 1: it's all complicated. We're all on a journey here, baby. Yes,

1344
01:22:39,200 --> 01:22:42,280
Speaker 1: I did want to shout out the cinematographer of this movie,

1345
01:22:42,640 --> 01:22:47,320
Speaker 1: who is an icon. We've covered his work before. M

1346
01:22:47,439 --> 01:22:53,519
Speaker 1: David Mullen, a Japanese cinematographer. Check out this resume, Baby

1347
01:22:54,240 --> 01:22:59,120
Speaker 1: Aquila and the b Jennifer's Body and the Love Which

1348
01:22:59,240 --> 01:23:01,720
Speaker 1: amongst other but those were the three that jumped out

1349
01:23:01,760 --> 01:23:06,519
Speaker 1: to me as like, oh hell yeah that Debs he rocks,

1350
01:23:06,840 --> 01:23:09,880
Speaker 1: he rocks. Yeah, I mean Aquila and the Bat alone,

1351
01:23:09,960 --> 01:23:13,160
Speaker 1: and also a bunch of Madmen, a bunch of West

1352
01:23:13,280 --> 01:23:19,639
Speaker 1: world Sarah Silverman special, just like amazing work top to bottom.

1353
01:23:19,720 --> 01:23:22,719
Speaker 1: So I just wanted to shout out m David Mullen.

1354
01:23:23,360 --> 01:23:26,000
Speaker 1: I just wanted to take a moment to give credit

1355
01:23:26,080 --> 01:23:30,519
Speaker 1: to a man brave. Yeah, But I was like, wait

1356
01:23:30,560 --> 01:23:32,840
Speaker 1: a second, the same guy who did the camera work

1357
01:23:32,880 --> 01:23:36,280
Speaker 1: on Aquila and the Bat which I we have to cover.

1358
01:23:36,640 --> 01:23:38,759
Speaker 1: We have to I can't believe we haven't covered Acula

1359
01:23:40,680 --> 01:23:46,400
Speaker 1: Um Classic. I want to point out the heteronormativity and

1360
01:23:46,600 --> 01:23:52,520
Speaker 1: gender normativity, especially in the way that the characters discuss

1361
01:23:53,160 --> 01:23:56,519
Speaker 1: love and sex and romance and stuff, and again might

1362
01:23:56,600 --> 01:24:01,559
Speaker 1: bee that's part of the commentary and parody of it all,

1363
01:24:01,680 --> 01:24:04,040
Speaker 1: But all the love and sex that gets discussed in

1364
01:24:04,120 --> 01:24:08,960
Speaker 1: this movie only refers to hetero attraction between SIS men

1365
01:24:09,040 --> 01:24:12,640
Speaker 1: and CIS women. Discussions around gender are always framed in

1366
01:24:12,720 --> 01:24:15,960
Speaker 1: a very kind of rigid binary of men and woman

1367
01:24:16,160 --> 01:24:20,519
Speaker 1: and not acknowledging anyone else on the gender spectrum um,

1368
01:24:21,000 --> 01:24:22,639
Speaker 1: which I do think that there could have been room

1369
01:24:22,680 --> 01:24:26,880
Speaker 1: for in this movie in terms of diversity and race,

1370
01:24:27,080 --> 01:24:30,120
Speaker 1: body type, and and I feel like, you know, I

1371
01:24:30,560 --> 01:24:34,680
Speaker 1: know that queer identities were like I almost went full

1372
01:24:34,720 --> 01:24:39,400
Speaker 1: boss and I was like wicked underrepresented in movies in

1373
01:24:39,680 --> 01:24:42,800
Speaker 1: the sixties and seventies. But there's there was like queer

1374
01:24:43,120 --> 01:24:46,120
Speaker 1: b movie cinema that existed, Like there there was, there

1375
01:24:46,200 --> 01:24:48,559
Speaker 1: was definitely room for it, right, But and then well,

1376
01:24:48,600 --> 01:24:51,240
Speaker 1: I also have to kind of question, like, is the

1377
01:24:51,360 --> 01:24:56,799
Speaker 1: movie stylistically paying homage to that era and the movies

1378
01:24:56,880 --> 01:24:59,840
Speaker 1: that came out in that era an excuse for why

1379
01:25:00,000 --> 01:25:02,960
Speaker 1: I the movie looks like it does in terms of

1380
01:25:03,520 --> 01:25:09,840
Speaker 1: whiteness and body normativity and gender and heteronormativity. I don't know.

1381
01:25:09,880 --> 01:25:11,760
Speaker 1: I don't feel like that's a very good excuse for

1382
01:25:11,800 --> 01:25:15,200
Speaker 1: a movie that comes out within the past five years.

1383
01:25:15,840 --> 01:25:18,240
Speaker 1: But I don't know. I would that's again, that's something

1384
01:25:18,320 --> 01:25:22,160
Speaker 1: that I would be interested in deferring to annabiller on

1385
01:25:22,479 --> 01:25:25,360
Speaker 1: because I do I'm like, I trust that she has

1386
01:25:25,439 --> 01:25:28,559
Speaker 1: a creative vision and if there's a question that it's

1387
01:25:28,600 --> 01:25:32,200
Speaker 1: like she's truly like, oh, I guess I wasn't thinking

1388
01:25:32,240 --> 01:25:34,800
Speaker 1: about that that hard and I don't have reasoning for it.

1389
01:25:34,920 --> 01:25:38,640
Speaker 1: Then it's like, okay, well then I'm criticizing you for that.

1390
01:25:40,040 --> 01:25:42,640
Speaker 1: But yeah, I would I would be. This is just

1391
01:25:42,720 --> 01:25:45,320
Speaker 1: something that I was just like, I wish she would

1392
01:25:45,360 --> 01:25:49,479
Speaker 1: answer these questions. Maybe she has and we just don't know. Um.

1393
01:25:50,280 --> 01:25:56,400
Speaker 1: Does anyone have other thoughts about the movie? It's everything

1394
01:25:56,479 --> 01:25:59,320
Speaker 1: that I had. I don't think there's anything I loved.

1395
01:25:59,520 --> 01:26:03,120
Speaker 1: When she's burying way and her total tangent to talk

1396
01:26:03,160 --> 01:26:06,439
Speaker 1: about her cat that she misses so much, Like, yes,

1397
01:26:06,920 --> 01:26:09,479
Speaker 1: it's like my best friend. I was like, wow, feelings

1398
01:26:09,600 --> 01:26:14,880
Speaker 1: seen girls. Uh yeah. There were a lot of moments

1399
01:26:14,960 --> 01:26:16,800
Speaker 1: in this movie that I thought were like very funny

1400
01:26:17,000 --> 01:26:19,679
Speaker 1: or like just I don't know, Like the moments where

1401
01:26:19,680 --> 01:26:22,040
Speaker 1: I did understand what was being referenced, I was like,

1402
01:26:22,560 --> 01:26:25,840
Speaker 1: who I love this ship. Um, And then there are

1403
01:26:25,880 --> 01:26:28,720
Speaker 1: other moments that I'm like, this is referencing something I'm

1404
01:26:28,840 --> 01:26:33,479
Speaker 1: assuming I don't know, but yeah, does it pass the

1405
01:26:33,520 --> 01:26:35,840
Speaker 1: Bachtel test? I believe it does a couple of times,

1406
01:26:35,920 --> 01:26:38,960
Speaker 1: not a ton of times, because it is mostly you know,

1407
01:26:39,320 --> 01:26:43,840
Speaker 1: women talking about men. What were we talking about? Oh? Yeah, men? Yeah,

1408
01:26:45,200 --> 01:26:46,880
Speaker 1: but it does past a few times. It is like

1409
01:26:47,040 --> 01:26:50,080
Speaker 1: more on a technicality than I was expecting, honestly. But

1410
01:26:50,240 --> 01:26:52,360
Speaker 1: there is that whole I mean, there's that whole interest

1411
01:26:52,400 --> 01:26:54,880
Speaker 1: scene where Trish and Elane are meeting each other. They're

1412
01:26:54,880 --> 01:26:56,519
Speaker 1: talking about the house, They're talking about why did you

1413
01:26:56,640 --> 01:26:58,400
Speaker 1: move there? There, They're talking about a couple of things

1414
01:26:58,479 --> 01:27:00,439
Speaker 1: that are not about men, like it does is past

1415
01:27:00,840 --> 01:27:06,240
Speaker 1: interior decorating. Yes, Elaine also talks to the which shop

1416
01:27:06,720 --> 01:27:11,600
Speaker 1: lady about selling her weares. Yes, but most of the

1417
01:27:11,680 --> 01:27:18,040
Speaker 1: conversations between Mary meeting Um, But most of the conversations

1418
01:27:18,080 --> 01:27:22,080
Speaker 1: between women are either directly about men or the subtext

1419
01:27:22,120 --> 01:27:28,080
Speaker 1: of the conversation is about using witchcraft to find hetero

1420
01:27:28,280 --> 01:27:32,040
Speaker 1: love with a man. Which makes sense, it's a story

1421
01:27:32,120 --> 01:27:35,479
Speaker 1: about a woman who is trying to find hetero love.

1422
01:27:36,120 --> 01:27:39,479
Speaker 1: But also why are so many movies where a woman

1423
01:27:39,640 --> 01:27:44,400
Speaker 1: is the protagonist? About that? This movie broke my brain? Yeah,

1424
01:27:44,439 --> 01:27:46,720
Speaker 1: this movie, this is the movie that broke the podcast.

1425
01:27:48,520 --> 01:27:56,880
Speaker 1: Congratulations Annabellair, congratulations as the podcast broken. I'm so glad

1426
01:27:56,960 --> 01:27:59,240
Speaker 1: that that I got to bring this one. I am too,

1427
01:27:59,360 --> 01:28:02,200
Speaker 1: I really like i I'm this movie is going to

1428
01:28:02,360 --> 01:28:04,000
Speaker 1: like haunt me and I think in a in a

1429
01:28:04,240 --> 01:28:07,400
Speaker 1: generally positive way. I feel like there's gonna be a

1430
01:28:07,479 --> 01:28:10,000
Speaker 1: lot of listeners who are going to be like, Caitlin,

1431
01:28:10,520 --> 01:28:14,920
Speaker 1: you fucking asshole with your horrible opinions about this movie.

1432
01:28:16,000 --> 01:28:19,800
Speaker 1: Very hard on yourself. I mean usually I am, yes,

1433
01:28:20,400 --> 01:28:23,240
Speaker 1: I don't know my again, my brain is broken, and

1434
01:28:24,000 --> 01:28:26,800
Speaker 1: let's rate it. Let's rade it. Let's rade it. Our

1435
01:28:26,880 --> 01:28:30,439
Speaker 1: nipple scale is zero to five nipples based on how

1436
01:28:30,479 --> 01:28:34,280
Speaker 1: the movie fairs. Looking at it through an intersectional feminist lens,

1437
01:28:35,840 --> 01:28:41,280
Speaker 1: here's what I'll say, Oh my god, ready, um knowing

1438
01:28:41,600 --> 01:28:45,960
Speaker 1: who made the movie and Annabeller being a very vocal,

1439
01:28:46,560 --> 01:28:52,800
Speaker 1: outspoken feminist and all of the work she put into

1440
01:28:52,880 --> 01:28:55,240
Speaker 1: it and the care she put into it, and what

1441
01:28:55,479 --> 01:29:01,799
Speaker 1: is clearly messages of the sexual of you know, women

1442
01:29:02,160 --> 01:29:06,959
Speaker 1: and fems, and how that's historically been feared and punished,

1443
01:29:07,040 --> 01:29:10,920
Speaker 1: and how it deserves to be empowered, and how there's

1444
01:29:11,560 --> 01:29:17,040
Speaker 1: commentary on toxic masculinity and male fragility, how there's kind

1445
01:29:17,080 --> 01:29:20,519
Speaker 1: of this acknowledgement or maybe this was just my read

1446
01:29:20,560 --> 01:29:25,920
Speaker 1: of it, but open to interpretation, that it's exploring this

1447
01:29:26,200 --> 01:29:30,439
Speaker 1: kind of tug of war of like being a sexually

1448
01:29:30,520 --> 01:29:38,760
Speaker 1: liberated feminist person and also a heterosexual woman who is

1449
01:29:38,760 --> 01:29:46,280
Speaker 1: attracted to men, and how that can be confusing you.

1450
01:29:46,880 --> 01:29:49,760
Speaker 1: It's like, do you kill the men? Do you have

1451
01:29:50,040 --> 01:29:53,760
Speaker 1: sex with them? Why not? Boy? Cannot be both? Do

1452
01:29:53,880 --> 01:29:56,240
Speaker 1: you get into a relationship with them and then have

1453
01:29:56,360 --> 01:29:59,839
Speaker 1: sex with them and then kill them? It could be everything,

1454
01:30:00,080 --> 01:30:02,920
Speaker 1: take anything off the table, and this movie certainly does

1455
01:30:03,000 --> 01:30:05,760
Speaker 1: not take any of those options off the table, right,

1456
01:30:06,680 --> 01:30:09,639
Speaker 1: So I think it's attempting to do some interesting things.

1457
01:30:09,880 --> 01:30:12,840
Speaker 1: I think that because the screenplay and just the way

1458
01:30:12,880 --> 01:30:17,400
Speaker 1: the story was crafted is muddled and dissonant. I found

1459
01:30:17,520 --> 01:30:20,160
Speaker 1: a lot of the messaging to get lost in that,

1460
01:30:20,360 --> 01:30:23,240
Speaker 1: and I feel like it wasn't as um again, not

1461
01:30:23,400 --> 01:30:26,160
Speaker 1: as effective commentary for me as it seems to be

1462
01:30:26,280 --> 01:30:28,479
Speaker 1: for a lot of other people. And again that's probably

1463
01:30:28,680 --> 01:30:32,120
Speaker 1: that's just like a personal preference art being open to

1464
01:30:32,280 --> 01:30:36,240
Speaker 1: interpretation kind of thing. So I appreciate what it seems

1465
01:30:36,240 --> 01:30:39,519
Speaker 1: to be doing, and because of that, I will award

1466
01:30:39,680 --> 01:30:45,040
Speaker 1: the movie three nipples. Maybe that's too harsh, but that's

1467
01:30:45,080 --> 01:30:47,599
Speaker 1: what feels right to me at this time. Three nipples.

1468
01:30:47,760 --> 01:30:53,559
Speaker 1: I'll give one to Anna Biller's costume design. I'll give

1469
01:30:53,880 --> 01:30:59,640
Speaker 1: one too, Anna Biller's score, and I'll give one to

1470
01:31:00,479 --> 01:31:04,960
Speaker 1: the prop that is the used tampon that goes into

1471
01:31:05,080 --> 01:31:10,360
Speaker 1: the witch bottle. I'm gonna go three and a half here.

1472
01:31:10,640 --> 01:31:15,439
Speaker 1: I here's what I think boiled down. The movie is

1473
01:31:15,920 --> 01:31:18,880
Speaker 1: too white and too straight even for the genre it

1474
01:31:19,080 --> 01:31:25,880
Speaker 1: is parodying for my personal preference, and that is kind

1475
01:31:25,960 --> 01:31:31,800
Speaker 1: of my biggest stumbling block with this movie. I don't

1476
01:31:31,920 --> 01:31:36,280
Speaker 1: see why there couldn't have been more characters and also

1477
01:31:36,479 --> 01:31:39,040
Speaker 1: like a body normative things we've we've discussed at this

1478
01:31:39,080 --> 01:31:41,320
Speaker 1: point in the episode, but I think that there was

1479
01:31:41,640 --> 01:31:46,080
Speaker 1: certainly more room even within the confines of what Anna

1480
01:31:46,160 --> 01:31:49,080
Speaker 1: Biller was very clearly referencing. So that I think is

1481
01:31:49,200 --> 01:31:53,600
Speaker 1: my my main critique. Outside of that, I think like

1482
01:31:53,800 --> 01:31:58,840
Speaker 1: this is like a movie that I am very glad exists.

1483
01:31:58,960 --> 01:32:01,479
Speaker 1: I feel like the fact that it broke all of

1484
01:32:01,560 --> 01:32:04,639
Speaker 1: our brains in the way that it did actually speaks

1485
01:32:04,760 --> 01:32:08,160
Speaker 1: to the movie and speaks to the fact that it

1486
01:32:08,320 --> 01:32:10,479
Speaker 1: is good that that like that. I'm that I'm very

1487
01:32:10,520 --> 01:32:14,360
Speaker 1: glad it exists because it's presenting, you know, in a

1488
01:32:14,560 --> 01:32:17,160
Speaker 1: in a very weird way that seems very inherent to

1489
01:32:17,360 --> 01:32:20,559
Speaker 1: like who this director is and how many women get

1490
01:32:20,680 --> 01:32:25,160
Speaker 1: to make very like weird movies exactly how they want

1491
01:32:25,240 --> 01:32:29,679
Speaker 1: to and while she, while she was certainly limited by budget,

1492
01:32:30,240 --> 01:32:33,080
Speaker 1: got to do the whole thing by herself and have

1493
01:32:33,200 --> 01:32:36,840
Speaker 1: it received with extremely open arms by the general public,

1494
01:32:36,880 --> 01:32:41,240
Speaker 1: which I feel like it's also unusual for marginalized oh twos,

1495
01:32:41,720 --> 01:32:44,880
Speaker 1: where you feel like it's a more normal reception to

1496
01:32:44,960 --> 01:32:47,680
Speaker 1: be like, you know, white guy reviewers being like, well,

1497
01:32:47,720 --> 01:32:50,160
Speaker 1: I don't know what the funk that was about anyway,

1498
01:32:50,400 --> 01:32:52,640
Speaker 1: like you know, so I think that they're like, this

1499
01:32:52,760 --> 01:32:54,320
Speaker 1: movie has a lot going on, and the fact that

1500
01:32:54,439 --> 01:33:01,960
Speaker 1: like we were like like the different ways of navigating patriarchy,

1501
01:33:02,479 --> 01:33:06,880
Speaker 1: and again it is a very like how heterosexual women

1502
01:33:07,200 --> 01:33:10,280
Speaker 1: navigate the patriarchy. But but but even the shades of

1503
01:33:10,360 --> 01:33:14,080
Speaker 1: gray within that very specific group of people who are

1504
01:33:14,160 --> 01:33:19,960
Speaker 1: overrepresentative movies. But to have that and have both of

1505
01:33:20,080 --> 01:33:25,439
Speaker 1: them sort of lose, it's frustrating, But it's also so

1506
01:33:25,600 --> 01:33:29,160
Speaker 1: reflective of what real life can be and except everyone

1507
01:33:29,680 --> 01:33:36,240
Speaker 1: is really sexy and wearing cool costumes, and so ultimately

1508
01:33:36,360 --> 01:33:38,680
Speaker 1: I think that it's I think it's definitely worth a

1509
01:33:38,720 --> 01:33:42,599
Speaker 1: watch if you enjoy like very I'm trying to think

1510
01:33:42,640 --> 01:33:46,320
Speaker 1: of the world like whatever The intellectual word for quirky

1511
01:33:46,520 --> 01:33:52,000
Speaker 1: is that, like the I like anachronistic. It's not that,

1512
01:33:52,160 --> 01:33:55,200
Speaker 1: but it sounds like that. Kitchen kitchi is kind of

1513
01:33:55,360 --> 01:33:58,679
Speaker 1: what has in mind kitchy kitchen. It is definitely kitchy.

1514
01:33:58,840 --> 01:34:00,679
Speaker 1: I'm gonna think of this word in like three hours

1515
01:34:00,720 --> 01:34:04,320
Speaker 1: and then walking into traffic. But I'm very glad this

1516
01:34:04,400 --> 01:34:06,120
Speaker 1: movie because I think it's I mean, just based on

1517
01:34:06,520 --> 01:34:09,559
Speaker 1: the conversation we've had here alone, I would recommend watching

1518
01:34:09,600 --> 01:34:11,400
Speaker 1: and see what you think. Maybe I like it, maybe

1519
01:34:11,439 --> 01:34:17,320
Speaker 1: you won't. And that's just kind of art movies. Um,

1520
01:34:17,920 --> 01:34:20,560
Speaker 1: So I'll give it three and a half talking for

1521
01:34:20,640 --> 01:34:25,559
Speaker 1: the reasons described. I'll give one to Elaine. I'll give

1522
01:34:25,640 --> 01:34:30,599
Speaker 1: one to Trish, I will give one to Annabiller. I'll

1523
01:34:30,640 --> 01:34:36,040
Speaker 1: give my last half to Elaine's cat that died, poor kitty, Melissa.

1524
01:34:36,160 --> 01:34:40,360
Speaker 1: What say you? I'm going a solid four nips? Wow,

1525
01:34:40,479 --> 01:34:43,320
Speaker 1: we really did the spectrum. You already gave a nip

1526
01:34:43,400 --> 01:34:45,960
Speaker 1: to Gray Malkins, so I'm gonna give Grat Malkin to

1527
01:34:46,760 --> 01:34:51,280
Speaker 1: just to like be extra. I think this movie is

1528
01:34:51,320 --> 01:34:53,720
Speaker 1: so clever. I think it's so funny. I think that

1529
01:34:54,920 --> 01:34:57,800
Speaker 1: the satire of it it works so well for me,

1530
01:34:58,040 --> 01:35:02,400
Speaker 1: because there's just so much to pick apart, and it's

1531
01:35:02,479 --> 01:35:04,439
Speaker 1: not straightforward and you have to kind of look at

1532
01:35:04,479 --> 01:35:06,400
Speaker 1: it for longer. And I can't remember the exact quote

1533
01:35:06,439 --> 01:35:09,320
Speaker 1: that Anna says um, but she said something about making

1534
01:35:09,400 --> 01:35:12,040
Speaker 1: it for the feminine gays and how she did a

1535
01:35:12,160 --> 01:35:15,160
Speaker 1: lot of artistry with the costumes and the sets and

1536
01:35:15,680 --> 01:35:18,080
Speaker 1: all of that so that you weren't just looking at

1537
01:35:18,120 --> 01:35:20,639
Speaker 1: the women's sexually being like, oh, she's a beautiful woman.

1538
01:35:20,800 --> 01:35:23,200
Speaker 1: It's like there's all of this other stuff to look

1539
01:35:23,240 --> 01:35:25,160
Speaker 1: at at the same time. So she wanted there to

1540
01:35:25,240 --> 01:35:27,760
Speaker 1: be like that to be part of it. But they're

1541
01:35:27,800 --> 01:35:30,800
Speaker 1: for they're time more to look at. So I think

1542
01:35:30,880 --> 01:35:33,280
Speaker 1: it's I don't know. I just think it's such a

1543
01:35:33,320 --> 01:35:36,759
Speaker 1: great movie. I do want to share a quick quote

1544
01:35:36,960 --> 01:35:42,920
Speaker 1: from Annabeller from an article in The Guardian in which

1545
01:35:43,000 --> 01:35:46,040
Speaker 1: she's kind of talking about what she wanted to do

1546
01:35:46,160 --> 01:35:50,320
Speaker 1: with this movie and like different cinematic identities she wanted

1547
01:35:50,360 --> 01:35:53,560
Speaker 1: to reclaim as far as like archetypes and stereotypes and

1548
01:35:53,720 --> 01:35:55,600
Speaker 1: and and like things like that, as far as like

1549
01:35:56,360 --> 01:36:02,040
Speaker 1: female characters throughout cinema, and she says, or sorry, so sorry,

1550
01:36:02,080 --> 01:36:05,160
Speaker 1: this is talking about what Annabeller wanted to do. So

1551
01:36:05,200 --> 01:36:07,479
Speaker 1: it's not a direct quote from her, but it says

1552
01:36:08,080 --> 01:36:11,920
Speaker 1: that she quote cites other female movie types whose voices

1553
01:36:11,960 --> 01:36:15,280
Speaker 1: she would like to reclaim, the sexually aggressive, confident women

1554
01:36:15,439 --> 01:36:20,360
Speaker 1: of the pre Hayes Code era, when many more screenwriters

1555
01:36:20,400 --> 01:36:24,639
Speaker 1: were women, film noir fem fatales such as and Savage

1556
01:36:24,720 --> 01:36:27,240
Speaker 1: in Detour and Jane Grier in Out of the Past

1557
01:36:27,680 --> 01:36:33,080
Speaker 1: projections of male postwar anxiety and misogyny. And then she says, quote,

1558
01:36:33,120 --> 01:36:35,880
Speaker 1: I'm doing that with the Love, which reclaiming the figure

1559
01:36:35,960 --> 01:36:38,720
Speaker 1: of the which the fem fatale, an old sort of

1560
01:36:38,800 --> 01:36:42,840
Speaker 1: male fantasy figure, and make it a fem fatale seen

1561
01:36:43,120 --> 01:36:48,000
Speaker 1: from the female side unquote. So you know, I appreciate that.

1562
01:36:48,520 --> 01:36:51,719
Speaker 1: I get what she's doing. Caitlin, It's okay you didn't

1563
01:36:51,760 --> 01:36:56,599
Speaker 1: like the movie with that alysta. Where can we find

1564
01:36:56,720 --> 01:36:59,599
Speaker 1: your online? Where can we follow you and follow your work?

1565
01:37:00,040 --> 01:37:03,759
Speaker 1: You can find me omg Chump on Twitter and Instagram,

1566
01:37:04,040 --> 01:37:07,040
Speaker 1: and you can find my work at Krypt t v

1567
01:37:07,400 --> 01:37:10,000
Speaker 1: on Twitter and Instagram. It's krypt t v. And you

1568
01:37:10,040 --> 01:37:11,920
Speaker 1: can also watch Girl in the Woods, which is our

1569
01:37:12,000 --> 01:37:15,840
Speaker 1: new show coming on Peacock this October, and the whole

1570
01:37:15,960 --> 01:37:19,639
Speaker 1: show centers around a queer love triangle and a non

1571
01:37:19,720 --> 01:37:23,240
Speaker 1: binary person coming out and girls kiss in the first episode.

1572
01:37:23,320 --> 01:37:26,800
Speaker 1: That's all I'm gonna say. It's spooky, it's fun. I

1573
01:37:26,840 --> 01:37:30,479
Speaker 1: think it's got something for everybody. Yes, everyone, be sure

1574
01:37:30,560 --> 01:37:33,160
Speaker 1: to check out The Girl in the Woods on Peacock TV,

1575
01:37:33,360 --> 01:37:37,800
Speaker 1: which drops October twenty one, which, depending on the release

1576
01:37:37,920 --> 01:37:42,280
Speaker 1: date of this episode, might be today, So check it out.

1577
01:37:42,920 --> 01:37:46,960
Speaker 1: Uh And then you can follow us on Twitter and

1578
01:37:47,080 --> 01:37:51,919
Speaker 1: Instagram at Bechtel Cast. And of course there's our Patreon

1579
01:37:52,040 --> 01:37:56,000
Speaker 1: a k a Matreon, which is found at patreon dot com,

1580
01:37:56,120 --> 01:37:59,240
Speaker 1: slash pecktel Cast. It's five dollars a month. It gets

1581
01:37:59,280 --> 01:38:04,040
Speaker 1: you to this episodes per month and also the entire

1582
01:38:04,120 --> 01:38:08,000
Speaker 1: back catalog. Love it. You can get merch at t

1583
01:38:08,200 --> 01:38:13,160
Speaker 1: public dot com slash v Bechdel Cast. And the last

1584
01:38:13,160 --> 01:38:15,320
Speaker 1: thing I'll say is everything I didn't like about this

1585
01:38:15,439 --> 01:38:17,240
Speaker 1: movie or the moments I didn't like where when I

1586
01:38:17,320 --> 01:38:19,479
Speaker 1: felt like I was watching a Lanta del Rey music

1587
01:38:19,560 --> 01:38:23,439
Speaker 1: video and that I feel like I'm like, well, I'm

1588
01:38:23,479 --> 01:38:28,639
Speaker 1: bringing my biases to the table as well. Sure, sure, okay,

1589
01:38:28,720 --> 01:38:30,160
Speaker 1: bye bye,